The Color Pie in Legacy

[dragonwisdom]

There are three cards that can never be banned in Legacy:

1) Brainstorm
2) Lion's eye Diamond
3) Force of Will

They are the three cards that define Legacy. If you don't like those cards, go play modern, standard and limited.

Color Variety / Color Balance- This actually matters. If it didn't, then there would be no real need to even have colors in the game state/play/rules. Please let me explain.

For example, green creatures are supposed to be the strongest (goyf, terrravore) , white creatures while weak have the most tech (stoneforge mystic, mother of runes). With the exception of fish, blue creatures are supposed to stink. Printing delver and snapcaster in blue were just stupid, another mental misstep. And printing 2 of them was really a mistake. Blue has no real weakness. It can draw cards, filter cards, counter spells, has the best plainswalker and now it has creatures on par with goyf and mystic and natcatyl (a non flying cat :) ). I suppose the only real weakness left is creature removal. Oh wait they printed dismember. Hmm, maybe white and red should get strong counter spells too. The color pie is broken. You might as well dump colors. Wizards game designers in their quest to be creative, have disregarded the color pie. I suppose they can flirt with changes to the color pie in standard. This inherent game design flaw is only really propagated in Legacy. Since standard cards rotate out, they can always change their mistakes/flirtations every few years. However, legacy is stuck with the problem forever.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

While I'm not sure what sort of discussion this is supposed to promote, I do agree on one thing, Wizards is horrible, and I mean Rebecca Black horrible, bad at thinking about eternal formats. They print shit like Dismember and Phyrexian Mana and think, 'Well, if it's broke it'll rotate", and then ignore eternal. And then what? Who in their right mind is going to suggest a ban on Dismember? No one. What they really need is one eternal only player who looks at this shit and can say, "Hey, guys, this is gonna fuck something up". That'd be great.

As for the screwed color pie, I'm meh on that. I don't think it's broken, players just have a very, very skewed love of blue decks.

[Rizso]

Thought the Color pie is less important in eternal formats as duals and fetchlands reduces the importance of the colorpie anway.

[majikal]

People get so bent out of shape when one color is better than another color in any given format, and it's completely irrational. If you are choosing to play a color because it has aesthetic appeal, you're just doing it wrong. Who cares what color something is, unless it completely goes against R&D's stated philosophy of that color? In general, they're just cards that do things, and due to the nature of the game, one color has to be the best one or else the game is just a big coin flip. And it just happens that that color is often blue, and that's not a problem.

It's when one color starts creeping into another color's territory that things get sticky (I'm looking at you, Delver, Snapcaster Mage, and Phyrexian mana).

[GradStudentGuy]

Wizards R&D have stated that they don't test eternal due to time constraints. They also stated the ban / restricted list is their way to fix R&D mistakes. Unfortunately there are a few cards that they have printed that you really have to wonder how it is not obvious that it would mess up eternal formats. Mental misstep is a prime example. After Wild Nacatl, Delver's Power should have been obvious as well. Same thing with Emrakul after Progenitus's printing. R&D does not learn from its small mistakes in eternal unless there is a banning.

[dragonwisdom]

I started this thread to question some of R&D's decisions recently. They don't really make any sense. Snapcaster and Delver for example are NOT cards that should be banned on their own. (though I could be wrong about snapcaster). This is why I think the B and R list won't be applicable in this case. There is all this talk about banning brainstorm (which is just ridiculous). Legacy's skew towards blue will be even more prominent. Some and not all people are missing the point that it is not brainstorm that is the problem. This is why I started the thread. I am not opposed to printing strong creatures. In fact, I applaud that. However, Delver and Snapcaster should have been printed in either red, white or black. Blue just got 2 rock solid creatures. It already had V clique, the best blue flier ever (and rightfullly so since blue creatures fly).

And the color pie did get altered. Blue is not supposed to have creatures on par with green/white. It already does just about everything else. FYI, I play blue and I feel this way. I see a game design flaw and am just pointing it out. And because they R and D introduced this flaw, the ban brainstorm crowd is getting stronger.

The color pie is one of the tenet's in MTG. The look and feel of the cards are too. Thus, flip cards are flat out stupid. They ruined paper draft. I now no longer have to figure out what my opponents are playing. I am beginning to think that they are running out of good ideas to keep the game fresh. Screwing with the color pie and changing the look and feel of the cards is the wrong way to go in my opinion. Generating new mechanics/creative mechanics. The rest is just unimaginative and gimmicky.

[Richard Cheese]

A bit off topic, but it feels like they've screwed themselves by trying to introduce two new mechanics with each expansion. It felt forced when they started it, and it still does sometimes. Even when they hit on something interesting, it doesn't get explored in depth for years until it gets used again.

As far as colors go, it's core to the look and feel of the game, and they seem to be largely ignored lately in the quest for the "new". Personally I feel like the whole friendly/enemy color aspect is being largely ignored lately. Back when we were young and naive, we used to board against colors rather than strategies, things like blasts, paladins, Boil, Stench of Decay, Deathgrip/Lifeforce. Bad strategy, but a lot of fun and tons of flavor. The flavor that sets have new feels so purposefully engineered that it's like walking into a house for sale that's been staged. It's undeniably well-done, but still just feels false.

[BKclassic]

The simple fact of the matter is that Wizards not testing their cards in eternal formats is an absurd policy. Its not like they can't afford the afford the necessary man power it would require to do so.

[Rizso]

TBH they shouldnd reduce the powerlvl on cards for standard cos they are alot stronger in eternal formats. Neither Delver or Snapcaster is that absurd in standard as they are in legacy. If they would get nerfed down cos of eternal formats they wouldnt get to see play at all or very little. Like Delver at 2 mana wouldnt see play considering how random it is without brainstorms. TBH IMO Delver isnt much of a problem, it can be killed 1 mana removal spells. If you dont care about playing removal thats your problem.

[Gheizen64]

TBH they shouldnd reduce the powerlvl on cards for standard cos they are alot stronger in eternal formats. Neither Delver or Snapcaster is that absurd in standard as they are in legacy. If they would get nerfed down cos of eternal formats they wouldnt get to see play at all or very little. Like Delver at 2 mana wouldnt see play considering how random it is without brainstorms. TBH IMO Delver isnt much of a problem, it can be killed 1 mana removal spells. If you dont care about playing removal thats your problem.

Dude an effective 3/2 flyer for 1 isn't a "problem"? It may not be a broken card strictly speaking, but it's the best aggressive creature ever printed alongside nacatl. And it's blue.

[Rizso]

Dude an effective 3/2 flyer for 1 isn't a "problem"? It may not be a broken card strictly speaking, but it's the best aggressive creature ever printed alongside nacatl. And it's blue.

Its still a gamble. Its still about 50% to turn without any help from brainstorm or setup with ponder etc. With Brainstorm its a 2 card combo without cardloss.

If you dont want to play Darkblast or Gutshots as an additional removal in your board and wanting to adapt to meta changes you deserve to lose.

IMO the format is alot fun even with alot of blue-white, blue-green based 2-3 colored decks. Only thing I think they should do is looking into better red sideboard cards, red 2 dropps and black creatures overall.

[TsumiBand]

Given that the 'color wheel/pie/thingy' has undergone more than a few shifts from like 8th Edition onwards, there's no use in talking about it in a Legacy forum, since this format kind of has legal cards from before all of that. :P

I don't know how it has come to pass that so many Legacy players have such short memories. Blue used to be fucking awful in Legacy, it was officially dubbed a 'support color' at its inception and even when decks like the traditional 3-color Threshold lists were good, it was still basically the concession that you played it for Force and Brainstorm and 12 other good Blue spells. It's not like we *just figured out* how good Brainstorm and fetchlands are together, but by the same token I remember all the conversations on how Legacy was terrible because people couldn't just blindly import BBS lists from Vintage, which meant Legacy had to be out of whack.

I mean maybe I'm missing something, and believe me I know about the goodness of Merfolk, but even that is relatively 'recent' in terms of an Eternal format's timeline; the fact that Dismember gets played by Merfolk isn't telling of Merfolk, it just means that the premier aggro-control deck in the format is playing Dismember. You don't like it? Start rocking it in another deck. Blue took its sweet time to get to where it is now in Legacy, and it was actually because of printings over the last like 4 years that made it so.

[GGoober]

As much as I tend to agree that Delver is quite the upper-tier creature in Legacy currently, for my personal taste, it's been a good example were Wizards considers the card almost largely for its impact in Eternal. However, Delver should really be fitting into a red-color pie, but regardless I still enjoy the card a lot. Don't get too negative in the thread. The color pie is off on Delver that I would agree, but it has the same feel the way it impacts the format like newer cards printed e.g. Nacatl, SFM, Jace. This IS what Legacy should feel exactly in my opinion "cards that are really terrible in other newer formats but is powerful in Legacy".

[Rizso]

TBH Blue is still pretty much a support color that require almost 50% of your noneland cards being blue. Killing conditions for blue decks outside of merfolk are still mostly the none blue cards like Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf and Stoneforge etc. Delver fits perfect flavorwise thought.

[TeenieBopper]

The simple fact of the matter is that Wizards not testing their cards in eternal formats is an absurd policy. Its not like they can't afford the afford the necessary man power it would require to do so.

Think about how many people are on this website. Then, figure out how many hours of Legacy magic is generated by this website alone on a weekly basis (testing, tournaments, discussion, etc). Divide that number by 40. That's how many full time employees they would need to have in order to match this website. Multiply that number by 25,000. I bet that number is way over 1,000,000.

Wizards isn't going to spend $1,000,000 to test Legacy.

It's a completely un-absurd policy. Wizards is going to test the formats that make them money (limited and Standard). "But, but, we buy packs and stuff too!" Shut up. No you don't. You buy singles and you know it. When Legacy starts making Wizards money, they'll start testing it.

[Gheizen64]

Think about how many people are on this website. Then, figure out how many hours of Legacy magic is generated by this website alone on a weekly basis (testing, tournaments, discussion, etc). Divide that number by 40. That's how many full time employees they would need to have in order to match this website. Multiply that number by 25,000. I bet that number is way over 1,000,000.

Wizards isn't going to spend $1,000,000 to test Legacy.

It's a completely un-absurd policy. Wizards is going to test the formats that make them money (limited and Standard). "But, but, we buy packs and stuff too!" Shut up. No you don't. You buy singles and you know it. When Legacy starts making Wizards money, they'll start testing it.

Some things like printing MM and Snapcaster in the set immediately after doesn't need a genius to figure out..

[Malchar]

Blue is the best, and it always will be the best. Everyone should have realized this when they invested cash into Legacy. Did people actually buy non-blue cards on a whim hoping that Wizards would later fix it so that all five colors are equal?

There's no reason why all the colors need to be balanced.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Think about how many people are on this website. Then, figure out how many hours of Legacy magic is generated by this website alone on a weekly basis (testing, tournaments, discussion, etc). Divide that number by 40. That's how many full time employees they would need to have in order to match this website. Multiply that number by 25,000. I bet that number is way over 1,000,000.

Wizards isn't going to spend $1,000,000 to test Legacy.

It's a completely un-absurd policy. Wizards is going to test the formats that make them money (limited and Standard). "But, but, we buy packs and stuff too!" Shut up. No you don't. You buy singles and you know it. When Legacy starts making Wizards money, they'll start testing it.

It wouldn't cost them anywhere near that much money because they wouldn't need anywhere near that many testers. If wotc wanted to I'm sure they could hire 10 good players and have them test the new cards effectively. Having even one reasonable person would have been enough to predict the power of cards like Mental Misstep or Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull.

You're absolutely right about why wotc doesn't give a shit about eternal formats though and I don't expect them to start testing for them. They can't even test well enough for standard as it is and I expect that is just because they're incompetent/don't care much at all about testing.


As much as I tend to agree that Delver is quite the upper-tier creature in Legacy currently, for my personal taste, it's been a good example were Wizards considers the card almost largely for its impact in Eternal. However, Delver should really be fitting into a red-color pie, but regardless I still enjoy the card a lot. Don't get too negative in the thread. The color pie is off on Delver that I would agree, but it has the same feel the way it impacts the format like newer cards printed e.g. Nacatl, SFM, Jace. This IS what Legacy should feel exactly in my opinion "cards that are really terrible in other newer formats but is powerful in Legacy".

People play Delver in other formats. He absolutely is not "terrible".

[TsumiBand]

Blue is the best, and it always will be the best. Everyone should have realized this when they invested cash into Legacy. Did people actually buy non-blue cards on a whim hoping that Wizards would later fix it so that all five colors are equal?

There's no reason why all the colors need to be balanced.

OMFG, is this real life? How long was Goblins THE deck to beat? People talked about banning Lackey/Ringleader waaaay before Brainstorm was a twinkle in Tom LaPille's "to-do" list.

[Antonius]

I was thinking to myself not too long ago whether or not Force of Will should exist in other colors...

well, should it? I mean, much of the discussion here has already revealed that the color pie is largely antiquated and vestigial. If blue can get one-ups on all the things other colors can do, why shouldn't another color get the Force? It seems like a semi-sensible way of giving other colors a way to run against combo without neutering combo.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I was thinking to myself not too long ago whether or not Force of Will should exist in other colors...

well, should it? I mean, much of the discussion here has already revealed that the color pie is largely antiquated and vestigial. If blue can get one-ups on all the things other colors can do, why shouldn't another color get the Force? It seems like a semi-sensible way of giving other colors a way to run against combo without neutering combo.

No, if anything a fixed Misstep and stop making every good card infinitely easy to splash.

[majikal]

No, if anything a fixed Misstep and stop making every good card infinitely easy to splash.

Misdirection, on the other hand...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The reason that Legacy buried Vintage is that people wanted to play older cards, but wanted to do so in a diverse format. A truly diverse format; Vintage had different decks, they just all looked much the same and had the same core of cards for the most part.

I don't know if the people insisting that blue is supposed to be the only Legacy color and it's only a rogue whim to think that non-blue decks might be viable are just Vintage refugees or something, but it is absolute foolishness of the highest order to think that Legacy can lose the two advantages over Vintage that allowed it to grow from a tiny niche format into the second most popular format- archetypical and color diversity, which it has had for almost its entire existence, and its relatively low cost of entry- without suffering any repercussions.

The biggest cause of the latter concern is the reserved list, but the biggest reason for the former to happen is people insisting with dogmatic conviction that only blue decks are or should be or have been viable. This is certainly not the case for the majority of Legacy's history, I'm not fully convinced its the case today, and it certainly should not be the case, and if it is found to be so something needs to be done to redress the, yes, color balance of Legacy.

[Hof]

No, if anything a fixed Misstep and stop making every good card infinitely easy to splash.

I'm not convinced that color pie should be an issue in Legacy, but if it is a problem, I would say we need more powerful cards with double colored mana costs. It's surprising to me how difficult it is to include, say, 4 Warren Instigator in monored Goblins. Even with Vials and Lackeys, it is generally considered unsafe to go below 16-17 mountains, which means you have to cut stuff like Rishadan Ports for more mountains. Such cards are definitely NOT easy to splash.

[Lemnear]

The reason that Legacy buried Vintage is that people wanted to play older cards, but wanted to do so in a diverse format. A truly diverse format; Vintage had different decks, they just all looked much the same and had the same core of cards for the most part.


Stop the bullshit please; you sound like an idiot if you claim that MUD, Dredge, Fish, Gush and Bob Control (As a few examples) all "looked much the same and had the same core of cards". I know you are not so please spare out such obviously false claims

[Admiral_Arzar]

Stop the bullshit please; you sound like an idiot if you claim that MUD, Dredge, Fish, Gush and Bob Control (As a few examples) all "looked much the same and had the same core of cards". I know you are not so please spare out such obviously false claims

I think he was referring to Vintage several years ago (when Legacy was first starting to get big) rather than modern Vintage. However, I'm unaware of the metagame at that time in Vintage, so I can't say whether his supposition is accurate or not. And you have to admit - to an outsider - several decks which start with "the restricted list" seem rather similar.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Stop the bullshit please; you sound like an idiot if you claim that MUD, Dredge, Fish, Gush and Bob Control (As a few examples) all "looked much the same and had the same core of cards". I know you are not so please spare out such obviously false claims

Legacy displaced Vintage a while ago as the Eternal format of choice, as a stepping stone to it current level of popularity. At the time, from an outsider's perspective, every deck outside of Workshop decks- iirc, Manaless Ichorid was sort of but not yet a thing, and Bridge was printed fairly late if not after this process- looked much the same. They played differently, of course, but they all started off of with the power 7/8, Brainstorms, Force of Wills, and then an interchangeable and fairly narrow set of different combinations and answer cards depending on what type of kill you were playing. Different "decks" were often less than ten cards off from each other. Whether that's still the case I don't know or care because Vintage sucks, and it sucks primarily because it came to be dominated by the same people that insisted that the "natural" development of a format was for blue/black control and combo decks to be the only viable options, and who now insist the same thing about Legacy.

Well, those people certainly got what they wanted, it didn't make sense to not play blue in Vintage except for a few very narrow strategies. The result was that Vintage died off. I don't see any reason this wouldn't repeat with Legacy, especially as the price tag gap narrows with rising Legacy costs as a secondary problem created by the reserved list.

Also tone it down a notch, I would prefer that things not get unfriendly.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Misdirection, on the other hand...

Color-shifted red Misdirection would be a good start and wouldn't even bleed the color pie.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I agree with that. Ignoring the power of Brainstorm for a moment, Force of Will is a very good card because it actually gives you both early and late game answers in Legacy, at a completely fair price, while asking you to actually commit somewhat to a color. I would never want it banned and would love to see more cards like it in other colors. A red Misdirection that let you redirect abilities too would probably be ideal as a start; I'm not sure exactly how playable that would be, but it seems potentially so, given how powerful it would be to hit not only removal, discard and counters but also cards like Wasteland, Jace and Mother of Runes, while also randomly giving you the match against the odd Belcher deck; or maybe redirecting the eleventh copy of a Tendrils of Agony, allowing you to go on and win.

[Zilla]

OMFG, is this real life? How long was Goblins THE deck to beat? People talked about banning Lackey/Ringleader waaaay before Brainstorm was a twinkle in Tom LaPille's "to-do" list.
I don't remember this being the case. I remember a 2ish year period where the format was completely stagnant, but both Vial Goblins and Landstill were the two decks to beat during that time. I don't recall any time in this format's history where blue sucked or was considered entirely a support color.

Even in 1.5 with fully powered MUD and Dragon, blue had a strong presence in Mana Drain-powered Landstill and in Tog Control.

[TsumiBand]

I don't remember this being the case. I remember a 2ish year period where the format was completely stagnant, but both Vial Goblins and Landstill were the two decks to beat during that time. I don't recall any time in this format's history where blue sucked or was considered entirely a support color.

Even in 1.5 with fully powered MUD and Dragon, blue had a strong presence in Mana Drain-powered Landstill and in Tog Control.

Landstill was always one of those decks that it seemed like nobody could decide whether or not it was a pile, but it kept showing up. I'm at work so I'm not going digging through old reports or old posts or anything, but IIRC most of the non-Combo, non-Merfolk lists that were also primarily Blue just never got entirely off the ground. Bant was solid even when it was Threshold, and even before that when it was "Threshold with cards in the main that actually have the Threshold keyword". Even stuff like Solidarity, it was like, 'try it if you want, but do not expect to do well unless you are Gearhart'.

Maybe I'm old and my brain is dying, but I have never felt like Blue was dominating this format as it does in Vintage, or as it did in the Standard/Extended formats that I was used to when I started learning the game back in 2001. I know Merfolk is the best Sliver deck you'll ever play, but that doesn't mean it isn't fair, and I get that a card like Dismember is of course just going to gravitate to the deck it's best in regardless of its color, yet I still don't find an inherent power problem with Brainstorm being a playable card. This is coming from someone who would play nothing but Angel Stompy if he could, and sometimes when he can't, just because.

[Zilla]

Goblins was never solely the dominant deck. At the time it was strong, Landstill was equally dominant. Those two decks had an absolute stranglehold on the format. The reason it was so bad was that Landstill beat Goblins, and Goblins beat every deck that was a threat to Landstill.

The only other top tier deck in the format at that time was (mono-blue) Solidarity. Those three decks were exclusively tier 1 in Legacy for close to two years.

It wasn't until GP Philly that things really got shaken up. Pikula's Deadguy Ale, an RW Rifter Deck, and Not Quite Gro, all relatively underdeveloped decks, made top 8 at one the format's largest ever events, and made people realize there was more to the format than just Landstill vs. Goblins.

Incidentally, that was really when Not Quite Gro / Thresh variants started overtaking pure control builds like Landstill in this format. The trend continues to this day, where the archetype has evolved into tempo decks like Canadian Thresh and Team America.

Point being, there's never been a time in this format where blue didn't play a very prominent role. That isn't to say that it's as dominant as in Vintage, but I think it's wrong to say that there was ever a time where it was purely a support color in Legacy.

[Kuma]

IBA, since you're always talking about color balance in Legacy, what would that actually look like? ~20% of top 16 decks having each color? Would 40% of decks containing blue and 20% of decks containing each of the other colors be acceptable? What about 55% of decks having blue, and 20% each of the other colors?

[Zilla]

IBA, since you're always talking about color balance in Legacy, what would that actually look like? ~20% of top 16 decks having each color? Would 40% of decks containing blue and 20% of decks containing each of the other colors be acceptable? What about 55% of decks having blue, and 20% each of the other colors?
While I disagree with IBA's ultimate conclusion that Brainstorm needs to be banned or will actually fix blue's prominence in this format, I understand his underlying premise.

Of the last 3 SCG tournaments, 100% of the winning decks ran 4 Brainstorm, and a very large percentage of the top 4 did as well. I should think that when IBA mentions color balance, he means anything less than a 100% share of winning decks would be a step in the right direction for blue.

I think he'd agree that it would be totally arbitrary to put a specific number on it. What IBA would like to see (and I would as well) is proof that decks not running Brainstorms can not only top 8, but win major tournaments.

I'm inclined to attribute a lot of this to SCG group think. Brainstorm is an amazing card, but there are a ton of untapped strategies that can brutally punish a field full of blue-based aggro control, and no one on the SCG circuit seems to be playing them.

[Kuma]

Of the last 3 SCG tournaments, 100% of the winning decks ran 4 Brainstorm, and a very large percentage of the top 4 did as well. I should think that when IBA mentions color balance, he means anything less than a 100% share of winning decks would be a step in the right direction for blue.

That 100% is based on five tournaments. Nobody believes that it is literally impossible for a non-blue deck to top 2 a SCG open. That percent can only go down even if we do nothing.

The real reason we are seeing this level dominance is that the structure of the SCG opens gives Brainstorm decks a huge advantage. Knowing your opponent's 75 lets you know what to look for and what to put back with Brainstorm, eliminating most of the guesswork.

I'm not saying this is the only reason for Brainstorm's dominance, but it might explain why it doesn't dominate European events as much as American ones. Take that knowledge away and perhaps Brainstorm returns to a more fair level of representation.


I think he would agree that it would be totally arbitrary to put a specific number on it.

If we're going to have this discussion, we need to do a little better than "I'll know it when I see it." Any number will be somewhat arbitrary, but if we don't define a "color balanced" format we can't have meaningful discussions about banning cards to return diversity to an acceptable level.


What IBA would like to see (and I would as well) is proof that decks not running Brainstorms can not only top 8, but win major tournaments.

Of course they can. I don't think the situation is nearly as bad in Europe, where Maverick has won many major tournaments. Also, sample size five is not enough to draw any meaningful conclusions.


I'm inclined to attribute a lot of this to SCG group think. Brainstorm is an amazing card, but there are a ton of untapped strategies that can brutally punish a field full of blue-based aggro control, and no one in the SCG circuit seems to be playing them.

That probably has a lot to do with it as well.

[Zilla]

That 100% is based on five tournaments. Nobody believes that it is literally impossible for a non-blue deck to top 2 a SCG open. That percent can only go down even if we do nothing.
I think so too, which is why I'm against banning anything at all. There was a time in this format where decks could literally dominate for years before there was a metagame shift. And when those shifts did occur, it was often not because of any new cards being printed, but because people finally got off their asses and decided to innovate decks which could exploit such an obviously predictable metagame.

I'm simply telling you where IBA is coming from, and to be fair, the empirical evidence is making Brainstorm/Force of Will look overwhelmingly strong right now. What we need is more time for people to adjust their strategies towards exploiting the current metagame before calling for bans, because the Legacy community is notoriously slow to break out of the preconceived way of doing thing things.

If people start playing decks which should crush a blue-based aggro-based metagame and are still coming up short over the next several months, then maybe it's time to start looking at the B/R list.

Equal representation of the 5 colors in winning decks for its own sake is pretty arbitrary. If the format is fun (completely subjective, I know,) and competitive, then there's no reason to take any action at all, regardless of what colors are being played.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Currently i don't think that any cards which are used in legacy are overpowered or needs banning. But what i like to happen in the future is to increase the usability / power level of the other colors.

Currently BLUE for me is the clear cut winner as it has lots of card types which is more versatile over the other colors. If you check the original roots of each color blue is not known for a low cc creature that has good ability but now they have delver of secrets, snapcaster mage, trinket mage, etc. while the other colors where stuck at what there roots are.. like white and red, green has improved abit from mana dorks and good P/T casting ratio is now capable of handling enchantment and artifact hate, black's progression is very slow aswell.

Im guessing the color pie would change if wotc would increase the other colors power level / usability. A simple comparsion, is between blue and red, in any tournys the top 5 decks has blue compared to red. im guessing the ratio is around 10 blue different cards to 1 red card (maybe l.bolt) in all the top 5 decks.

For me blue has crossed other boundaries (other colors forte) thats why its the most used color in magic.

[Antonius]

Hello,
Currently i don't think that any cards which are used in legacy are overpowered or needs banning. But what i like to happen in the future is to increase the usability / power level of the other colors.

Currently BLUE for me is the clear cut winner as it has lots of card types which is more versatile over the other colors. If you check the original roots of each color blue is not known for a low cc creature that has good ability but now they have delver of secrets, snapcaster mage, trinket mage, etc. while the other colors where stuck at what there roots are.. like white and red, green has improved abit from mana dorks and good P/T casting ratio is now capable of handling enchantment and artifact hate, black's progression is very slow aswell.

Im guessing the color pie would change if wotc would increase the other colors power level / usability. A simple comparsion, is between blue and red, in any tournys the top 5 decks has blue compared to red. im guessing the ratio is around 10 blue different cards to 1 red card (maybe l.bolt) in all the top 5 decks.

For me blue has crossed other boundaries (other colors forte) thats why its the most used color in magic.

All those things you said are true, but blue was the most powerful color before snapcaster, etc. The real reason blue is king in eternal is because it is the most reactive color in the game. When your format is tens of thousands of cards deep with so many busted interactions between them, then the color that can simply say no is going to come out on top.

And that's why I think force--or rather, more derivatives of it--should be exported to other colors. Blue should always be the king of reactive effects, but the other colors have reactive abilities that are more-or-less theirs too, as defined by the color pie. Some cards like:

WW
Instant
You may pay 1 life and exile a white card from your hand instead of paying ~ mana cost.
You or target permanent you control gains protection from everything until end of turn.

1BB
Instant
You may pay 1 life and exile a black card from your hand instead of paying ~ mana cost.
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your opponent's control this turn, destroy that creature. It can't be regenerated.

3RR
Instant
You may pay 1 life and exile a red card from your head instead of paying ~ mana cost.
Copy target instant or sorcery spell. You may cast the copy without paying its mana cost.

GG
Instant
You may pay 1 life and exile a green card from your hand instead of paying ~ mana cost.
Counter target activated or triggered ability.

Yeah, brainstorm also gives blue incredible power, but the other colors have very powerful cards too. What they don't have are reactive spells which, in this format, can make the difference between no-contest dying on turn 3 or seeing the game through til turn 8 or later.

[Vacrix]

Perhaps we need a new pillar?

So basically Brainstorm and Force of Will are pitted against Lion's Eye Diamond.

Lion's Eye Diamond is THAT good? Well, no Dark Ritual is just as important to Lion's Eye Diamond as Brainstorm is to Force of Will. Would we see people playing storm combo if Dark Ritual were MIA? What about Tendrils of Agony? People would still play Goblin Charbelcher but then how does Brainstorm classified as a pillar when compared to these cards?

U/x aggro-control variants would still be played if they lost Brainstorm, but storm combo would have a hard time replacing Dark Ritual and/or Tendrils of Agony. I would say that these 'pillars' fall more into mutually inclusive groups.

1. [Brainstorm + Force of Will]

2. [Dark Ritual + Lion's Eye Diamond + Tendrils of Agony]

Ad Nauseum, Ill-Gotten Gains, and Past in Flames are all storm engines that, if banned, wouldn't kill storm combo, but banning any of the cards in pillar 2 would certainly do the trick.

3. [Wasteland]

Wasteland is certainly its own pillar because it forces the metagame to play basics and many players play it to facilitate tempo based strategies.

Those are the ones that tend not to change. Cards we might consider pillars...
Tarmogoyf - No, powercreep has pushed it out of this range
Sensei's Diving Top - It was for a period when Countertop was really good but it seems to have dropped from that status.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Its controls new win condition but is it good enough to achieve pillar status? Perhaps...

[TsumiBand]

This is why color pie discussions re: Blue in Legacy are a bad idea. I'm not going to dig up links or anything, but quite some time ago WotC admitted that they gave more interesting effects to Black and Blue for years, because they are "the fun colors". So the ancient Blue and Black spells (that are worth talking about) admittedly step over their boundaries either in terms of power level or 'on-color' effects, or both.

With everything that's been determined over the last 20-ish years in regards to theories of card advantage, etc... I wonder if a total reset of Magic today would decide that raw card drawing should even belong to just one color, as there's been an obvious trend away from keeping it Blue - although Blue definitely continues to see the best library manipulation.

As for why Snapcaster is Blue and not Red, well, fuck.

The printing of more relevant effects in other colors is always sort of an exercise in futility, I mean, this is a format full of easy mana fixing and shit. People always talk about making "better burn" or "better green creatures", but cards like SFM and Tarmogoyf are indicators of what happens when those cards are too easy to cast - good decks just get better, regardless of color or would-be hosers like Wasteland, Price of Progress, etc. The downside is, if you start costing those cards at 1WW or GGG or something, then those same cards have to be fucking bombs worth building around or else you don't have a home for them.

I agree with the people that have said, essentially: "It doesn't matter what people are playing at SCG right now. If these same decks can live through enough hate then maybe we can look at the banned list, but no one's playing the right hate right now." I asked the question in another thread; when is 'narrow' hate actually narrow? A metagame will determine whether or not its worth playing something that objectively speaking seems narrow on its face - Swords to Plowshares. If your meta is full of aggro, not playing StP means you're either playing a strategy that doesn't care about creatures (combo, i.e.) or you're playing something equally effective. If your meta is full of Blue, maybe not maindecking hate is a shitty choice - but subjectively REB looks more narrow than a card like StP. The meta shifts towards Blue, yet instead of packing tech people call for bans. Suit up, goddammit; crush someone's skull in with 8-Blast RG Beats wearing a "To Feinstein" shirt. It's doable.

[DarthVicious]

A metagame will determine whether or not its worth playing something that objectively speaking seems narrow on its face - Swords to Plowshares. If your meta is full of aggro, not playing StP means you're either playing a strategy that doesn't care about creatures (combo, i.e.) or you're playing something equally effective. If your meta is full of Blue, maybe not maindecking hate is a shitty choice - but subjectively REB looks more narrow than a card like StP. The meta shifts towards Blue, yet instead of packing tech people call for bans. Suit up, goddammit; crush someone's skull in with 8-Blast RG Beats wearing a "To Feinstein" shirt. It's doable.

Ditto.

Also, making it harder to splash 1-2 colors to shore up the weaknesses of your main color would bring blue's innate weaknesses to the surface. I only have one idea for such a card however.

RR
Sorcery
Destroy target nonbasic land

Free instant speed effects should be kept to a minimum, regardless of color. One of those free spells just got banned, you know.

[Barook]

I was thinking to myself not too long ago whether or not Force of Will should exist in other colors...
I don't see why they couldn't make a less crappy Unmask that fills the same niche of instant disruption. Something like this:

Force of Ill :3::b::b:
Instant
You may pay 1 life and exile a black card from your hand rather than pay Force of Ill’s mana cost.
Split second
Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

[Vacrix]

Most cards people would suggest might just strengthen the U/x aggro control archetype. I say that wizards ought to make some good scry mechanics that are dependent on the number of basics in play.

I think we just need a few cards that improve some of the slower control decks so they can slow down the format. And honestly I think we need a psuedo-rootmaze that way the deck can be played with x8 copies of Root Maze. That would really fuck up decks playing too many fetchlands.

[Julian23]

8 copies of Root Maze? Playing 8 copies of a card that doesn't do anything when drawn in multipes doesn't sound very "Control" to me. That's a pretty all-in strategy like 8 copies of Blood Moon or something.

[Vacrix]

It punishes players for playing Fetchlands. For example, Polluted Delta turns into an active land 3 turns after its played. I'd say thats a slower format if 8 copies allows that to be a consistent first turn play. Then you play lands that already come into play tapped and when untapped can do crazy things.. and don't play fetchlands obviously. I'm not saying this is the godsend solution to fine tuning Legacy. Rather, I think aggro control has access to such good creatures right now that there is almost no reason at all to play a slower control deck. WotC tends to balance the format by balancing power-creep. The problem is that U/x aggro control always benefits most from those changes. Just look at Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Knight of the Reliquary... Different U/x variants are playing these cards. You can't really powercreep without aggro control getting a piece of the action. Rootmaze is just an example of a kind of card that U/x aggro control wouldn't ever play.


I really think we just need a solid, slower control in DTB. What happened to Countertop?

[Julian23]

Countertop is a solid choice right now, people are just slow to catch on to it now. The only real problem it has is Midrange Green Sun's Zenith.

[_erbs_]

I don't think creating new free cast cards would be the solution as it would only make the game faster and not solve the current problem which is colors are crossing the boundaries of what they should be doing. But im not closing the doors of such approach.

Red right now really really needs help in that department as i think its the most weakest color in legacy followed by green, white, then black, then the imba blue.

If you pause and re read snapcaster mage on what it does you'll see that its abilities are all non blue to begin with.
Flash => all colors can have this i think
GY Recursion => is more on the realm of green or black, but blue has recall, never the less coming from a creature ability i feel it should be a green or black card, if it was a spell then blue can have it.
Flashback => i think this should be red as recoup was originally a red card.

So giving those points above, blue has no business having such a card in its card pool, it should be green, black or red.

If wotc really has a vision or has a marketing plan on what is happening then i guess we just have to accept it and learn to dace with to the music. But if you think about it in a marketing point of view giving other colors good cards will open up other card interactions of the said color providing a more revenue for wotc part as people will buy the said expansion bec people will be excited to test the card.

Like what i've posted earlier i really hope wotc do fix or provide other colors good cards not sub par ones like what is happening now or provide complementary cards so that current cards can be used. Imagine the feeling of buying a booster pack opening it then getting a mythic rare that is sub par.., the feeling is not good, the feeling of getting a useful uncommon is much more worth it rare getting a sub par mythic rare.

[Rizso]

Always been a fan of free spells like Submerge or spells that works like Silvergill Adept. Spells that are not 100% free all the time or expensive all the time. As well as Echo and the pacts from future sight.

Some black and red cards!

Echo creatures!
R
3/1 haste, Trample
Echo 1R

B 2/1
Flying
Echo BB
When it enters battlefield Destroy target creature with converted mana cost equal or less to the amount of swamps your control.

Crazy free spells like submerg and pacts.

1BB
If you control a swamp and any opponents control or forest or a plain, you may be -this spell- without paying its mana cost.
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

Pact version Black
0
Can only played this spell if you control a swamp.
Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 1B. If you don't, you lose the game.

Red pact
0
Can only be played if your control a mountain.
Deals 3 damage to target player or Creature.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 1R. If you don't, you lose the game

Oblivion Knight
1BB 3/3
Protection from white and Green.
Deathtouch.
Sacrifice a creature: Return Oblivion Knight from your Graveyard to Battlefield. Can only be used if you control a Swamps.

Strange there is still no black creature with both pro white and green.

Chaos Knight
1RR 3/3
Protection White and Blue and Haste.
Cannot be countered by spells or abilties.

There is alot of stuff they still can do with free spells that doesnt involve able to counter your opponents spells turn 0. IMO the pacts are fine for normal play, problem they dont care what lands you play with. Also the current pacts are to easy to be played in decks where you never have to pay the cost. Pacts shouldnt have to big effects and shouldnt cost to much to pay the next turn. Echo is an other abiltie wich is awesome to cheat on mana cost at cost of tempo. Problem with most echo creatures nowdays are to expensive even without echo. Just look at Bone Shredder and compare it to creatures like Gatekeepers of Malakir.

[ceustice]

I don't think the right way to fix this problem is to print more free spells. I do however think the color pie is very tilted. I, like many other legacy players, love my blue spells, but I do think the format and its players would benefit from the rest of the pie getting caught up. WotC just keeps hitting home run after home run with the blue cards as of late. (Mental Misstep, Snapcastger Mage, Delver of Secrets) Green Sun Zenith, and Stoneforge Mystic are steps in the right direction but if all colors kept getting cards at this quality this format could reach new heights.

[TsumiBand]

I don't think the right way to fix this problem is to print more free spells. I do however think the color pie is very tilted. I, like many other legacy players, love my blue spells, but I do think the format and its players would benefit from the rest of the pie getting caught up. WotC just keeps hitting home run after home run with the blue cards as of late. (Mental Misstep, Snapcastger Mage, Delver of Secrets) Green Sun Zenith, and Stoneforge Mystic are steps in the right direction but if all colors kept getting cards at this quality this format could reach new heights.

As much as I love Stoneforge Mystic and GSZ, they aren't steps in the right direction for the fact that they are costed incorrectly - at least inasmuch as they don't do what they do solely for the colors they exist in. SFM would still be SFM costed at WW, and GSZ (probably all the Zeniths) would have done well to require the X to be in the color of mana they represent. At least, if they were trying to give new spells with good functionality strictly to one color they would have done so.

But then again, unless there's a block of Magic that has mana-fixing on par with being able to play good fetches and (at the least) shocklands, they have to cost things aggressively if they really want effects to be aggressive. This is another factor to consider as to why older formats can't be given the same kind of consideration when dealing with card creation; lest they fill up Standard with goofy casting costs that make it a cumbersome place to play spells.

[Octopusman]

Printing good cards like stoneforge mystic just end up giving the blue Mage more toys.

The problem with the other colors is that good beaters still don't prevent you from getting destroyed by combo or even control. There really aren't enough tools in white, green and red to protect you if you can't disrupt the opponent. Free lightning bolts mean dick when they show and tell hive mind into play.
Artifacts can help but even then we still don't have good enough artifacts to help non-blue. By the time a red player casts thorn of amethyst it likely won't matter. The last time I played non-blue in a big tournament, I got belchered to death after I had 1 turn and I was holding a canonist. I had a tapped mountain and a 1/1 in play. What do you do? Hope you win the die roll? Desperately win game 1 so worst case scenario you can get to play first game 3?

They should print double colored mana cards in non-blue that advance your gameplan while simultaneously throwing a monkey wrench against combo/control. The only problem is that you're looking at needing at least two lands drops more often than not and that is slow.
Aside from Force of Will (which I love), more less obvious offenders are daze, spell snare, spell pierce, stifle. These can set the non-blue player very far behind.

As long as we're dreaming

Ass Goblin
R
Shroud
Blue instants and sorceries can not be played
1/1

Mythic Rare ;)

[Admiral_Arzar]

The problem with the other colors is that good beaters still don't prevent you from getting destroyed by combo or even control. There really aren't enough tools in white, green and red to protect you if you can't disrupt the opponent. Free lightning bolts mean dick when they show and tell hive mind into play.
Artifacts can help but even then we still don't have good enough artifacts to help non-blue. By the time a red player casts thorn of amethyst it likely won't matter. The last time I played non-blue in a big tournament, I got belchered to death after I had 1 turn and I was holding a canonist. I had a tapped mountain and a 1/1 in play. What do you do? Hope you win the die roll? Desperately win game 1 so worst case scenario you can get to play first game 3?



The issue with the "give aggro the tools it needs to beat combo" is that combo already loses to blue decks and sometimes black decks as well. If you make it lose to aggro (or even have a close matchup against it) there's no point to playing combo and we end up with an aggro vs. control format. I'm aware that there are plenty of players out there who would probably enjoy such a format, but I'm not among them. For every game where you get blown out by combo, there's a game where I have to play High Tide against RUG tempo and my opponent goes REB, Snapcaster, REB, FOW and blows ME out. People forget that aggro nowadays has many more anti-combo tools than it did a few years ago (Teeg, Thorn, Canonist, Trap, Surgical Extraction are all recent printings), while combo decks haven't gotten any faster in that same time frame.

[Octopusman]

The issue with the "give aggro the tools it needs to beat combo" is that combo already loses to blue decks and sometimes black decks as well. If you make it lose to aggro (or even have a close matchup against it) there's no point to playing combo and we end up with an aggro vs. control format. I'm aware that there are plenty of players out there who would probably enjoy such a format, but I'm not among them. For every game where you get blown out by combo, there's a game where I have to play High Tide against RUG tempo and my opponent goes REB, Snapcaster, REB, FOW and blows ME out. People forget that aggro nowadays has many more anti-combo tools than it did a few years ago (Teeg, Thorn, Canonist, Trap, Surgical Extraction are all recent printings), while combo decks haven't gotten any faster in that same time frame.

Right. There's not much of a grey area though, is there?
We're already very reliant on control elements to keep combo under control. At what first turn with no disruption win percentage is acceptable?
We know that winning during your opponents turn before you've had one is not allowed.

I think that combo is relatively fine with orim's chant/discard. I wouldn't mind combo getting a boost but I'm a blue player. If combo becomes stronger, blue needs to be strong and preset. Would people complain more about combo being strong or blue being everywhere because they get crushed otherwise?

I would love to see a priest of gix that has "your next spell cannot be countered" attached and maybe make him 1/1 :)

[Richard Cheese]

The issue with the "give aggro the tools it needs to beat combo" is that combo already loses to blue decks and sometimes black decks as well. If you make it lose to aggro (or even have a close matchup against it) there's no point to playing combo and we end up with an aggro vs. control format. I'm aware that there are plenty of players out there who would probably enjoy such a format, but I'm not among them. For every game where you get blown out by combo, there's a game where I have to play High Tide against RUG tempo and my opponent goes REB, Snapcaster, REB, FOW and blows ME out. People forget that aggro nowadays has many more anti-combo tools than it did a few years ago (Teeg, Thorn, Canonist, Trap, Surgical Extraction are all recent printings), while combo decks haven't gotten any faster in that same time frame.

I think the issue here is that non-blue aggro decks typically have something like 11-14% win percentage against combo. You just don't see things skewed that hard in the average aggro/control or control/combo matchup. If we're simplifying things to the 3-major archetype model, it's pretty clear that straight-up aggro is pretty disadvantaged lately. I think the issue at hand is that some players feel that this is not ok, and some do. Does the Legacy community really want straight aggro to be a viable strategy?

Personally I could probably live with aggro-control being the only aggro around, except that it's going to make the format less diverse, and to me that's the whole point of Legacy.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think the issue here is that non-blue aggro decks typically have something like 11-14% win percentage against combo. You just don't see things skewed that hard in the average aggro/control or control/combo matchup. If we're simplifying things to the 3-major archetype model, it's pretty clear that straight-up aggro is pretty disadvantaged lately. I think the issue at hand is that some players feel that this is not ok, and some do. Does the Legacy community really want straight aggro to be a viable strategy?

Personally I could probably live with aggro-control being the only aggro around, except that it's going to make the format less diverse, and to me that's the whole point of Legacy.

I have personally found those numbers to be pretty inaccurate, as it's pretty easy to lose to fast aggro if you get a mediocre draw (especially with a slower combo deck like Spiral Tide). I recently got crushed by Goblins actually, due to keeping a mediocre hand game one and getting blown out by Surgical Extraction and a bad Spiral game two.

Part of the issue is that fast aggro has lost a lot of ground against blue decks recently whereas its combo matchup hasn't changed much. When your aggro deck has difficulty beating blue, there isn't too much reason to play aggro as you know your combo matchup isn't going to be good.

[Richard Cheese]

I have personally found those numbers to be pretty inaccurate, as it's pretty easy to lose to fast aggro if you get a mediocre draw (especially with a slower combo deck like Spiral Tide). I recently got crushed by Goblins actually, due to keeping a mediocre hand game one and getting blown out by Surgical Extraction and a bad Spiral game two.

Part of the issue is that fast aggro has lost a lot of ground against blue decks recently whereas its combo matchup hasn't changed much. When your aggro deck has difficulty beating blue, there isn't too much reason to play aggro as you know your combo matchup isn't going to be good.

Ok, what numbers would you guess TES/Zoo or Tide/Zoo at?

[Koby]

Ok, what numbers would you guess TES/Zoo or Tide/Zoo at?

1) TES vs Zoo (80/20) - depending on the speed of Zoo.
2) Tide vs Zoo (66/34) - depending on the speed of Zoo.
3) Spanish Inquisition vs Zoo (95/5) - depending on SI's topdecks

The quality of Zoo's SB also plays a role on how the matchups go. More REB help the Tide matchup, whereas more Canonist help against TES (if Zoo ever gets a 2nd turn).

Also, Combo comes in many forms. It's the fundamental turn that matters the most. Most aggro decks can race for a Turn 4 kill, but few can disrupt/win by Turn 3.

[Rizso]

Red right now really really needs help in that department as i think its the most weakest color in legacy followed by green, white, then black, then the imba blue.


I wouldnt really rank them like that but rather Blue > White > Green - Black > red. The diffrence how easy it is to splash between the colors is pretty huge.

Blue really no easy cards to splash, fow require your deck to be majority of blue and the best blue spells costs UU

White very easy color to splash where the most cheaper spells costs just 1 colored mana. Plow, paths, Stoneforge.

Green, very easy to splash or build your deck arround GSZ. Goyf, grip, Choke are just 1 colored mana.

Black, alot harder to splash best black spells / creatures cost multiple colored mana sources unless you are named Dark Confidant. A color of combo, where the most powerful cards are combo cards.

Red, very easy to splah their best spells costs just only 1 red mana, Lightning Bolt, Grim lavamancers and The Blasts. But thats pretty much all red got. Out of 2280+ Red spells there is about 5 spells you would ever splash red for outside of combo.

[Admiral_Arzar]

1) TES vs Zoo (80/20) - depending on the speed of Zoo.
2) Tide vs Zoo (66/34) - depending on the speed of Zoo.
3) Spanish Inquisition vs Zoo (95/5) - depending on SI's topdecks

The quality of Zoo's SB also plays a role on how the matchups go. More REB help the Tide matchup, whereas more Canonist help against TES (if Zoo ever gets a 2nd turn).

Also, Combo comes in many forms. It's the fundamental turn that matters the most. Most aggro decks can race for a Turn 4 kill, but few can disrupt/win by Turn 3.

The numbers you posted are mostly accurate preboard, but shift quite a bit depending on the Zoo sideboard and also variance. I.E. hatebear + REB will probably beat Tide assuming the Zoo player has a reasonable clock and Tide doesn't have the nuts. The exception would be Spanish Inquisition, which I would place at around 80/20 preboard (the 20% is the approximate fizzle percentage of PSI in my testing). Postboard it gets ugly if Zoo has Mindbreak Trap or Leyline, but otherwise SI cares little about board hate.

Going back to sideboard construction, I remember a friend of mine constructing a sideboard for Big Zoo that allowed him to go 5-0 against Hive Mind post-board. I have also lost to the same player while piloting TES because he's aware of how to board against combo correctly (which most Zoo players I have encountered are not). Modern Maverick builds tend to be much stronger against combo despite the slower clock, but they still have issues with very resilient combo (Tide).

[Richard Cheese]

So I think my point still stands: fast combo vs. aggro is still the most heavily skewed matchup, and while that's been the case for some time, the control and aggro/control matchups have gotten progressively worse with things like SFM/Batterskull, Delver, and Snapcaster. Plain old Aggro decks are just getting less viable, and some people see that as a significant loss for Legacy.

[dahcmai]

I'd settle for a version of Unmask that doesn't exile the card pitched. That would be fairly strong indeed.

[damionblackgear]

I know I don't agree entirely but I do mostly agree with Richard.

The thing is that no one has updated their lists save for adding in the month's new flavor. There are better options than adding in the SFM mystic package to Zoo as a way to fight it. Goblins needed black to fight Iona. Merfolk looked at, then over, phantasmal image.

Maybe to fight the format, some of these decks should go back in time and restart their adjustments. Sometimes we make a bad turn.

As far as combo goes, Force and Mindbreak are the only 100% way to fight the first turn (since Empty gets around Leyline, even if it's not the most popular). As the game goes on, the decks allow for more and more disruption (discard, hatebears/enchantments, losing the game entirely) and that's what decks that don't play those things need.

The other thing they need is a clock. All three of those decks are able to accomplish that without a problem. Their problem is that they're trying to be too cute against the control decks.

Zoo (tempo aggro) - I mean seriously, Greensun Zenith in Zoo is fine... but it takes away from their own speed. Zoo is a deck that punishes quickly (mainly for their opponent keeping a slower, less controlling hand) and efficiently. At what point is GSZ any of that? Why play it?

Merfolk (control aggro) - Has no card draw anymore. That means they have 1 shot at things. If something happens to the initial onslaught, the game is pretty much over. Maybe their opponent draws dead but they're counting on the topdeck now... that's scary with this deck as none of their creatures are all that great on their own (except coralhelm, that guy leveled is a legitimate threat for a lot of decks). The starting lists were using Standstill, maybe they should take a page from their Extended deck and try running Ancestral Visions. It might be slow but they have how many one drops right now? (ps, best suited aggro deck to fight combo).

Goblins (card advantage aggro) - Used to run Blood Moon (overlooked in the format) and Mindbreak Trap out of the board. They were really strong then. The little green men have cut both to fight SFM. Maybe they shouldn't focus too much on the batterskull and instead focus on removing the witness. I remember when that deck didn't fear a Moat... What happened? Funny thing about that deck, the last mono red list - X-0'd if I remember correctly, someone else can check if they want. It was only a couple days ago. - looks almost exactly like the opening post from the original Vial Goblins deck.

It's not like the other decks jumped leaps and bounds against them. It's more like they decided that they didn't want to go with. Yes, they need answers but, it's not like the answers are not there. it's more like the players are not willing to go back and try them.

I mean, honestly, look at Mark Hinsz at the Starcity KC. He played Zoo, Scooped a match that if he had one out after drawing, may have made T8. instead he came in 15th. Mindbreak's in the board, Pridemages in the main. Things like that make it so that I can't believe that the aggro decks aren't able to compete.

I'm going to add this since I know someone is going to think this is absolute, the above, are suggestions. I don't know if they'll work. I think that the issue with the aggro decks fading is in both the 75 and the pilots (someone chose the 75 they were going to play).

[Barook]

I'd settle for a version of Unmask that doesn't exile the card pitched. That would be fairly strong indeed.
It could be abused for combo (e.g. Reanimator) and doesn't really solve the problem of Unmask being too slow, especially against instants.

The prime challenge of Wizard would be to make non-blue combo hate that doesn't go extremely well with blue shells, while being fast enough (read: 1cc or pitchable, probably even instant) and not screwing over their money maker Standard over. Bonus points for actually being good enough to be maindeck playable instead of a crappy niche card.

E.g. a pitch Rule of Law with Flash that only allows players to play spells during their turn and only once each time would do wonders. Give it a small body, non-agressive body to make it a less dead card than an enchantment and we would get something like this:

Ruler of Law :2::w::w:
Creature - Human Wizard
You exile a white card from your hand rather than pay Ruler of Law's mana cost.
Flash
Players can only play one spell each turn and only during their turn.
1/3

[Pastorofmuppets]

You know, I'd be okay with Wizards' printing of cards that are too strong for Legacy if they didn't ban old favorites in the process.
My biggest complaint is still the Survival banning. Nobody wanted to see Survival of the Fittest get banned before Vengevine. It was a fun card that enabled 3 or 4 different decks at a time. It added a lot of variety to the format. The Retainers/Iona combo was a little strong, yes. But Vengevine just blew that out of the water. I'm also still a little steamed about how Ad Nauseam killed MT, also. Wizards killed the card because they "don't have time," or at least that's what they say.
The real answer is clearly that they print OP cards for Legacy so they can ban the old stuff and force you to buy new stuff. It's a sound strategy, but it really detracts from the fun of Legacy.
Dear Wizards: If you want to do this, at least print the powerful cards in old frames. I fucking hate post-8th card frames.

[Mr. Safety]

Most cards people would suggest might just strengthen the U/x aggro control archetype. I say that wizards ought to make some good scry mechanics that are dependent on the number of basics in play.

I think we just need a few cards that improve some of the slower control decks so they can slow down the format. And honestly I think we need a psuedo-rootmaze that way the deck can be played with x8 copies of Root Maze. That would really fuck up decks playing too many fetchlands.

Better Root Maze :g:
enchantment

lands enter the battlefield tapped.

:g:, sacrifice Better Root Maze: search your library for a basic land card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

[burtonbaron62]

The real answer is clearly that they print OP cards for Legacy so they can ban the old stuff and force you to buy new stuff. It's a sound strategy, but it really detracts from the fun of Legacy.

I am really starting to believe this. I believe that Wizard's answer to the whole reserve list issue is to print broken stuff so Legacy looks more homogenized and less fun. I mean the meta is changing and consolidating really fast these days. It seems as if every set has a relevant card. That didn't used to be the case.

Oh well, I am not selling my duals, forces, or LEDs. Someday (maybe 10 years?), when MTG is not so popular, a third party will set a reasonable banned list and we can get rid of the newer over powered stuff. Like Emkarual, Progenitus, Vengevine, Ad Nauseum.

[TsumiBand]

You know, I'd be okay with Wizards' printing of cards that are too strong for Legacy if they didn't ban old favorites in the process.
My biggest complaint is still the Survival banning. Nobody wanted to see Survival of the Fittest get banned before Vengevine. It was a fun card that enabled 3 or 4 different decks at a time. It added a lot of variety to the format. The Retainers/Iona combo was a little strong, yes. But Vengevine just blew that out of the water. I'm also still a little steamed about how Ad Nauseam killed MT, also. Wizards killed the card because they "don't have time," or at least that's what they say.
The real answer is clearly that they print OP cards for Legacy so they can ban the old stuff and force you to buy new stuff. It's a sound strategy, but it really detracts from the fun of Legacy.
Dear Wizards: If you want to do this, at least print the powerful cards in old frames. I fucking hate post-8th card frames.

I think powerful Legacy cards get printed because after awhile (say, I dunno, 20 years or so?) the increasing challenge of making cards which matter across formats without turning Standard into a pile of shit demands that they eventually just say "fuck 'em, let the format sort it out" and they design primarily for Standard and so less and less attention is given to old formats. I mean honestly, by necessity you kind of have to do this after a while. It's not like anyone had Animate Dead in mind when designing Worldgorger Dragon. Zedruu came out, and then some nerd with an eidetic memory went, "This card breaks THOUGHT LASH, nnnGLAVIN"

Seriously, one raindrop raises the sea. If printing SFM just makes Blue control better, how do you expect reasonable printings in Standard, ever? The minute things get a heavy-handed double casting cost we all immediately think the same thing: "Card better be worth that double-Green, else it's trash." Give most of the recent printings (read: in the last like 5 or 6 years) that matter in Legacy an equivalent casting cost but in colored mana only - take your pick, Snapcaster, Goyf, SFM, whatever's cool - and you just make Wasteland better. (at the risk of proving a nasty point, this has no effect on merfolk, but srsly, zoo > fishes.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I am really starting to believe this. I believe that Wizard's answer to the whole reserve list issue is to print broken stuff so Legacy looks more homogenized and less fun. I mean the meta is changing and consolidating really fast these days. It seems as if every set has a relevant card. That didn't used to be the case.

Oh well, I am not selling my duals, forces, or LEDs. Someday (maybe 10 years?), when MTG is not so popular, a third party will set a reasonable banned list and we can get rid of the newer over powered stuff. Like Emkarual, Progenitus, Vengevine, Ad Nauseum.



I can't think, off the top of my head, of a set that didn't change the Legacy metagame. And I've been playing the format since Onslaught block.

[Barook]

I can't think, off the top of my head, of a set that didn't change the Legacy metagame. And I've been playing the format since Onslaught block.
Saviors of Kamigawa?

Depends on how much you want to count the impact of Pithing Needle on the metagame.

[Mr. Safety]

Kataki, War's Wage was also printed in Saviors...but I can't remember if it had any considerable impact on legacy. I know it was used quite a bit in extended agains Affinity.

[Koby]

Saviors of Kamigawa?

Depends on how much you want to count the impact of Pithing Needle on the metagame.

Pithing Needle was very influential (albeit, temporary). It was a primary out to Survival too.