[Deck] U/R Delver

[Yonthan]

Venser seems better than drake due to bouncing omnoscience

Does the opponent have the chance to cast all his instants before Venser's ability resolve on the stack? Thanks.

[Megadeus]

Does the opponent have the chance to cast all his instants before Venser's ability resolve on the stack? Thanks.

Yeah but what instant that matter do they run? Brainstorm. Otherwise wish is sorcery and all of their fatties dont have flash.

[blindspotxxx]

Anyone know Mike Flores' U/R Delver Build last SCG Edison? He made an article and apparently he only lost 2 games.

[Yan]

Anyone know Mike Flores' U/R Delver Build last SCG Edison? He made an article and apparently he only lost 2 games.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53006

you're welcome.

[SBGpinas]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53006

you're welcome.

4 Annul.... wow he must really hate Sneaky Show decks...

[Megadeus]

He is probably banking on it being good vs random Jittes, also killing stoneforce then having a cheap hard counter for BSkull. And like you said, randomly countering sneak attacks is good too.

[blindspotxxx]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53006

you're welcome.

Thanks :) Wow how'd you do that? Is it possible to view all the decks that joined the tournaments in SCG?

[RedVelvet]

4 Annul.... wow he must really hate Sneaky Show decks...

He still got crushed by it on camera

[blindspotxxx]

U/R Delver
Terrell Boaz
8th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 2/17/2013
Legacy

Creatures (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

Lands (18)
3 Island
3 Mountain
3 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
1 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

We're in the Top 8 again :) So much hate for combo lol

Made top 4. Should have made the Finals. How sad he got overconfident in tapping the wrong mana because the high tide player was sorta screwed on lands.

Time Spiral spun twice with Terrell having an untapped island but he had a Volcanic Island and a mountain tapped for a Snapcaster. A resolved bolt would have won the freaking game!!!!!!!!!! Actually he had it on the 2nd Spiral spun, 2 Lightning Bolts..... and the High Tide player having no counters left after the counter war on another Time Spiral.

ARGH! He had so much hate in the Sideboard.......

[Hapless Researcher]

U/R Delver
Terrell Boaz
8th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 2/17/2013
Legacy

Creatures (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

Lands (18)
3 Island
3 Mountain
3 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
1 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

We're in the Top 8 again :) So much hate for combo lol

Made top 4. Should have made the Finals. How sad he got overconfident in tapping the wrong mana because the high tide player was sorta screwed on lands.

Time Spiral spun twice with Terrell having an untapped island but he had a Volcanic Island and a mountain tapped for a Snapcaster. A resolved bolt would have won the freaking game!!!!!!!!!! Actually he had it on the 2nd Spiral spun, 2 Lightning Bolts..... and the High Tide player having no counters left after the counter war on another Time Spiral.

ARGH! He had so much hate in the Sideboard.......

Honestly, the Opens are sometimes wrought with suboptimal play.

[JDK]

He still got crushed by it on camera

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgnj-lgc-rnd-3-michael-flores-vs-josh-ravitz-6529267

G1 was unfortunate, but G2 he kept a retarded hand and his 75 weren't that good either.

[syfilisx]

Went 4-1 in local tournament in another town nearby so maybe time for another mini-report. They were having legacy season starter with UG Sea as price, so we decided to go for it.

UG Sea's lure had been strong, and there were several people not locals from other nearby towns too.

R1 Uw Miracles 0-2
G1 Fast Counterbalance with top, me with bad threat. Burn & Clouted Grim Lavamancer do him in for 6 damage, after he finds Detention Sphere for Mancer and wins the game. I noticed, he does not play stops. So would probably just won this with bit faster clock, but didn't find any guys before too late.
G2 Energy Field + Rip too strong. After fowing Red Elemental blast meant for energy field, he laid down second. No outs after that, since I had only two from side.
Pretty bad matchup, since it has few 2 mana permanents I have no proper answers except fow & reb. Luckily this deck is not played too much in our meta.

R2 Turbo Eldrazi 2-1
G1 Fast Clock, Few counters. That's about it. Burn did lot of work here, since he played moments peace to slow down creature beatdown.
G2 Clock bit too slow, got emrakul at pretty low life and won. Had no way to get two mana to play price after that in time.
G3 Turn 3 kill with Nivmagus Elemental. Probably something like T2 Clout + Daze + Fluster, hit for 11.

R3 Zombardment 2-1
G1 Had pretty slow hand, but was able to get rid of Carrion Feeders and Grim Lavamancer did a good job to keep me alive before I assembled beats + burn.
G2 Had to fish for a threats for a while after Tseize. Carrion Feeder + 2 Souls too strong and lost the race.
G3 Had turn three kill here. Had an good opening for over 10 damage and decided to took it and close the game with burn if Magus gets removed. He did not get removed and took a game in two hits. Magus is nice, since 3 of this decks guys do not block, so chumpers are fewer to burn/submerge away.

In this spot I want to mention that submerge is pretty good for getting turn 3 kills with opponents playing forests.

R4 Affinity /w Masters 2-1
G1 Keep one lander and start bashing with Delver, Dazing first plating. Flustering Galvanic blast trying to get Delver. Killing everything that tries to pick up a second one and go into combat. Sometime later draw second land and close game with price.
G2 Have pretty bad draw with bolts/hate. Have to defend myself against multiple platings and lose the race.
G3 Bash with Big Nivmagus elemental for quick death while getting rid of platings in process. Got to ride his storm when he tries to find stuff with Thoughtcast after putting few guys in play.

R5 Maverick 2-0
G1 Big Nivmagus after Delver getting stopped gets few good hits. Knight comes down, but cannot attack on threat of Nivmagus getting bigger and try's to get some lands on gy and find answers. Grim Lavamancer & bolts chunk out a 5 life per turn. Closing out the game. In last effort he tries to stop own knight, but force of will keeps knight on battlefield.
G2 Turn 1 Ponder assembling Nivmagus/Bolt/Flusterstorm setup for T3 combat. T2 I play Nivmagus and pass with blue open. Stop tries to get Nivmagus, but flusterstorm gets stop and Nivmagus is 5/6 for basicly free. Magus gets to hit for two times, before Knight arrives to rescue. Thalia comes down too, but I decide to cast two mana lightning bolts to head and do some Mancering.

What I net for 4-1? Steam Vents. 4--0-1 get UG Sea. Guy who lost finals gets Taiga. Third and fourth get Polluted Delta & Natural Order. But it's pretty cool, since places 2-5 was our car.

Here's the list. It's basicly same thing what I played in Legacy Champs 2012, but with added clouts to combat Decay. Clouted Nivmagus is pretty hard threat to deal with for many decks. High risk, High reward.

18 Lands
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

13 Creatures
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

27 Sorcery/Instant
4 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

3 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
2 Price of Progress

2 Clout of Dominus

SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfur Elemental (Rise of the esperblade and souls again. Few overprotective mothers running around too)
1 Price of Progress
1 Shattering Spree
1 Sulfuric Vortex

Thanks for reading, Cheers.
Jani

ps. If somebody wonders why I post here and not in Nivmagus deck threads. It's because I am from GG Guide roots, just expanded the deck to fit my taste and didn't go full Nivmagus playing all those suboptimal cards that are good only if you have magus on table. I feel that Flusterstorm & daze and in some extent FOW (in some matchups G1) are decent enablers for Nivmagus (and after side submerge).

[Rocco111]

Hi
Last weekend I played in a local tournament and ended 4th (ex-aequo). 20 players, 5 rounds and my final result was 3-1-1.

I played the following list:
15 LANDS
10 Fetch
2 basic
3 Volcanic Island

13 CREATURES
4 Delver
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

12 COUNTERS
4 FoW
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze

12 BLASTS
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Thunderous Wrath
2 Price of Progress

8 CANTRIPS
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

SB
1 Echoing Truth
1 Divert
2 REB
3 Submerge
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Shattering Spree
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle

Round 1 vs a team-mate & his Manaless Ichorid 0-2
Was a tad disappointing. Game 1 was predictably fast and painful even if I brought him down to 5pv. Out 3 Lavamancer and 2 PoP, In Tormod, 2 SE, 1 Echoing Truth and 1 Submerge (as I know we plays with Dryad Arbor & Forest postside). Game 2 I managed to slow him down thanks to a first-hand Surgical but I didn't have any threat on board and logically end up badly bruised.
0-0-1 (0-0-2) Didn't start very well. :rolleyes:

Round 2 vs Goblins 1-1
That was another though matchup and it is a shame I couldn't win this one. Game 1 looked like an war of attrition and a lethal PoP closed the game. Out 4 Spell Pierce, In 2 Surgical, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Echoing Truth. Game 2, despite an ideal start (Delver T1 -bounced by Scourger- then Delver + Lavamancer T2 -both killed in the same turn by 2 Gempalm cyclings Oo-), I ended up swarmed by the green skins. Game 3, ten minutes left to the clock, we are replaying the G1 as we keep on putting threats from hand to board and then from board to graveyard. In the 4th extra turn, am down to 1pv and my opp is at 7 after his attack, I have the 5th turn but cannot do anything. Draw.
0-1-1 (1-1-3) Crap! First time I am forced to draw vs Gobs. Time to reverse the luck! :wink:

Round 3 vs Jund 2-1
Very interesting match, more than my previous matches against this archetype. Game 1 I put a T1 Lavamancer that kept my opponent's DRS and BoB at bay until he put in place the Punishing Grove combo (which clearly blanks our board). Followed a rain of bolts from each side but PoP put an end to it. Out 2 Thunderous Wrath and 4 Spell Pierce, In 2 Surgical, 1 Divert, 3 Submerge. Game 2 after a T1 DRS for him and a T1 nothing for him, I diverted a Thoughtseize to see that my opponent was missing some Red Mana source. On my turn, I landed a Guide and we then entered a loop of life-gain-life-loss for my opponent until he finally found his out and started to cascade. 12min left to the clock. Out 1 Divert and 1 Submerge, In 2 Thunderous Wrath. G3 indeed faster (T2 Wrath helps) even though I had to sacrifice a Guide to Chain Lightning a Tarmogoyf to get the edge, once Punishing Fire was extracted. And again, PoP closed the game for me.
1-1-1 (3-1-4) God I hate Shaman! And I hate it even more when I am forced to deal with other threats and have to leave it alive... But winning feels good too. :wink:

Round 4 vs Esperblade 2-0
Not much to say about this one apart from the fact that my opponent wasn't very lucky apparently. Game 1 consisted of an early Guide which did all the job until another one joined the party. Price of Progress cut clean an attempt of Swording one of my Gobs and gave me the victory. At this point, my opponent did so little that I wasn't sure whether he was on Miracle or Esperblade... Out 2 Thunderous Wrath, 1 Lavamancer, 1 Ponder, In 2 Surgical, 1 Shattering Spree, 1 Smash to Smithereens. Game 2 was quickly done as an early flipped Delver followed by another Delver and quite a few counterspells cut short all hopes of victory for my opponent.
2-1-1 (5-1-4) I think it is honeslty the first time I won a match vs Esperblade so fast. It happened to me to have a quick game vs this deck but a match, not until this one. I felt a bit sorry for my opponent 'cause we regularly see each other on tournament and I know that he normally does better than this.

This round being so fast, it gave me time to walk around and scout my potential next opponents... And this is the moment where I discovered that actually I wasn't so bad in the ranking and depending on the next round, Top4 was doable! :laugh: So clearly I had to scout and do it good. :tongue:

Round 5 vs Eflball (version NO) 2-0
Incidentally I actually have scouted his last game and I know what he is playing. So against all odds, I will then put my bet on making sure no Natural Order will go through my counterspells even if it means allowing a Glimpse. Game 1, I put a T1 Lavamancer and started shooting the pointy ears at sight, then a Delver came to put some pressure and I finish demoralizing my opponent by countering his las-resort NO. Out 4 Spell Pierce and 1 Ponder, In 2 Surgical and 3 Submerge. Game 2 my opponent started with a Llano while on my side a first Delver came in. T2 he started to invade the board and I put a 2 Delver. T3, Gamble-time! as he started by landing a Glimpse with enough mana open to pay Pierce. I smelled a trap and let the Glimpse resolve. After a few Elf-drops, my opponent attempted to cast a NO, met a FoW FTW. After the hand shake, my (bitter) opponent starts telling me about my dubious play letting the Glimpse resolve, I answer that I know and this was clearly a gamble that could have gone sour... but no. Oh well...
3-1-1 (7-1-4) Well, not so bad for a first Liga day!

Results are given and, surprise, am 4th ex-aequo with 10pts! Pretty nice. :smile:

I feel like the list is quite decent. I unfortunately never really used my side cards apart Surgical Extraction (and Divert, once) so it is hard to see what has to be removed/tweaked. Thunderous Wrath and Price are really good and always gave me the edge I needed to win. 12 counterspells may look like a lot to some but it is the compromise I found to deal with Combo.deck on the same ground and prevent T2-kills (or at least, to prevent this happens too often).

Feedback welcome :)

[Megadeus]

Went 4-1 in local tournament in another town nearby so maybe time for another mini-report. They were having legacy season starter with UG Sea as price, so we decided to go for it.

UG Sea's lure had been strong, and there were several people not locals from other nearby towns too.

R1 Uw Miracles 0-2
G1 Fast Counterbalance with top, me with bad threat. Burn & Clouted Grim Lavamancer do him in for 6 damage, after he finds Detention Sphere for Mancer and wins the game. I noticed, he does not play stops. So would probably just won this with bit faster clock, but didn't find any guys before too late.
G2 Energy Field + Rip too strong. After fowing Red Elemental blast meant for energy field, he laid down second. No outs after that, since I had only two from side.
Pretty bad matchup, since it has few 2 mana permanents I have no proper answers except fow & reb. Luckily this deck is not played too much in our meta.

R2 Turbo Eldrazi 2-1
G1 Fast Clock, Few counters. That's about it. Burn did lot of work here, since he played moments peace to slow down creature beatdown.
G2 Clock bit too slow, got emrakul at pretty low life and won. Had no way to get two mana to play price after that in time.
G3 Turn 3 kill with Nivmagus Elemental. Probably something like T2 Clout + Daze + Fluster, hit for 11.

R3 Zombardment 2-1
G1 Had pretty slow hand, but was able to get rid of Carrion Feeders and Grim Lavamancer did a good job to keep me alive before I assembled beats + burn.
G2 Had to fish for a threats for a while after Tseize. Carrion Feeder + 2 Souls too strong and lost the race.
G3 Had turn three kill here. Had an good opening for over 10 damage and decided to took it and close the game with burn if Magus gets removed. He did not get removed and took a game in two hits. Magus is nice, since 3 of this decks guys do not block, so chumpers are fewer to burn/submerge away.

In this spot I want to mention that submerge is pretty good for getting turn 3 kills with opponents playing forests.

R4 Affinity /w Masters 2-1
G1 Keep one lander and start bashing with Delver, Dazing first plating. Flustering Galvanic blast trying to get Delver. Killing everything that tries to pick up a second one and go into combat. Sometime later draw second land and close game with price.
G2 Have pretty bad draw with bolts/hate. Have to defend myself against multiple platings and lose the race.
G3 Bash with Big Nivmagus elemental for quick death while getting rid of platings in process. Got to ride his storm when he tries to find stuff with Thoughtcast after putting few guys in play.

R5 Maverick 2-0
G1 Big Nivmagus after Delver getting stopped gets few good hits. Knight comes down, but cannot attack on threat of Nivmagus getting bigger and try's to get some lands on gy and find answers. Grim Lavamancer & bolts chunk out a 5 life per turn. Closing out the game. In last effort he tries to stop own knight, but force of will keeps knight on battlefield.
G2 Turn 1 Ponder assembling Nivmagus/Bolt/Flusterstorm setup for T3 combat. T2 I play Nivmagus and pass with blue open. Stop tries to get Nivmagus, but flusterstorm gets stop and Nivmagus is 5/6 for basicly free. Magus gets to hit for two times, before Knight arrives to rescue. Thalia comes down too, but I decide to cast two mana lightning bolts to head and do some Mancering.

What I net for 4-1? Steam Vents. 4--0-1 get UG Sea. Guy who lost finals gets Taiga. Third and fourth get Polluted Delta & Natural Order. But it's pretty cool, since places 2-5 was our car.

Here's the list. It's basicly same thing what I played in Legacy Champs 2012, but with added clouts to combat Decay. Clouted Nivmagus is pretty hard threat to deal with for many decks. High risk, High reward.

18 Lands
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

13 Creatures
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

27 Sorcery/Instant
4 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

3 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
2 Price of Progress

2 Clout of Dominus

SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfur Elemental (Rise of the esperblade and souls again. Few overprotective mothers running around too)
1 Price of Progress
1 Shattering Spree
1 Sulfuric Vortex

Thanks for reading, Cheers.
Jani

ps. If somebody wonders why I post here and not in Nivmagus deck threads. It's because I am from GG Guide roots, just expanded the deck to fit my taste and didn't go full Nivmagus playing all those suboptimal cards that are good only if you have magus on table. I feel that Flusterstorm & daze and in some extent FOW (in some matchups G1) are decent enablers for Nivmagus (and after side submerge).

There was no top 8? That seems unfortunate...

[syfilisx]

Yeah. In that place they always run just a swiss. Pretty random.

[blindspotxxx]

Hi
Last weekend I played in a local tournament and ended 4th (ex-aequo). 20 players, 5 rounds and my final result was 3-1-1.

I played the following list:
15 LANDS
10 Fetch
2 basic
3 Volcanic Island

13 CREATURES
4 Delver
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

12 COUNTERS
4 FoW
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze

12 BLASTS
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Thunderous Wrath
2 Price of Progress

8 CANTRIPS
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

SB
1 Echoing Truth
1 Divert
2 REB
3 Submerge
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Shattering Spree
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle

Round 1 vs a team-mate & his Manaless Ichorid 0-2
Was a tad disappointing. Game 1 was predictably fast and painful even if I brought him down to 5pv. Out 3 Lavamancer and 2 PoP, In Tormod, 2 SE, 1 Echoing Truth and 1 Submerge (as I know we plays with Dryad Arbor & Forest postside). Game 2 I managed to slow him down thanks to a first-hand Surgical but I didn't have any threat on board and logically end up badly bruised.
0-0-1 (0-0-2) Didn't start very well. :rolleyes:

Round 2 vs Goblins 1-1
That was another though matchup and it is a shame I couldn't win this one. Game 1 looked like an war of attrition and a lethal PoP closed the game. Out 4 Spell Pierce, In 2 Surgical, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Echoing Truth. Game 2, despite an ideal start (Delver T1 -bounced by Scourger- then Delver + Lavamancer T2 -both killed in the same turn by 2 Gempalm cyclings Oo-), I ended up swarmed by the green skins. Game 3, ten minutes left to the clock, we are replaying the G1 as we keep on putting threats from hand to board and then from board to graveyard. In the 4th extra turn, am down to 1pv and my opp is at 7 after his attack, I have the 5th turn but cannot do anything. Draw.
0-1-1 (1-1-3) Crap! First time I am forced to draw vs Gobs. Time to reverse the luck! :wink:

Round 3 vs Jund 2-1
Very interesting match, more than my previous matches against this archetype. Game 1 I put a T1 Lavamancer that kept my opponent's DRS and BoB at bay until he put in place the Punishing Grove combo (which clearly blanks our board). Followed a rain of bolts from each side but PoP put an end to it. Out 2 Thunderous Wrath and 4 Spell Pierce, In 2 Surgical, 1 Divert, 3 Submerge. Game 2 after a T1 DRS for him and a T1 nothing for him, I diverted a Thoughtseize to see that my opponent was missing some Red Mana source. On my turn, I landed a Guide and we then entered a loop of life-gain-life-loss for my opponent until he finally found his out and started to cascade. 12min left to the clock. Out 1 Divert and 1 Submerge, In 2 Thunderous Wrath. G3 indeed faster (T2 Wrath helps) even though I had to sacrifice a Guide to Chain Lightning a Tarmogoyf to get the edge, once Punishing Fire was extracted. And again, PoP closed the game for me.
1-1-1 (3-1-4) God I hate Shaman! And I hate it even more when I am forced to deal with other threats and have to leave it alive... But winning feels good too. :wink:

Round 4 vs Esperblade 2-0
Not much to say about this one apart from the fact that my opponent wasn't very lucky apparently. Game 1 consisted of an early Guide which did all the job until another one joined the party. Price of Progress cut clean an attempt of Swording one of my Gobs and gave me the victory. At this point, my opponent did so little that I wasn't sure whether he was on Miracle or Esperblade... Out 2 Thunderous Wrath, 1 Lavamancer, 1 Ponder, In 2 Surgical, 1 Shattering Spree, 1 Smash to Smithereens. Game 2 was quickly done as an early flipped Delver followed by another Delver and quite a few counterspells cut short all hopes of victory for my opponent.
2-1-1 (5-1-4) I think it is honeslty the first time I won a match vs Esperblade so fast. It happened to me to have a quick game vs this deck but a match, not until this one. I felt a bit sorry for my opponent 'cause we regularly see each other on tournament and I know that he normally does better than this.

This round being so fast, it gave me time to walk around and scout my potential next opponents... And this is the moment where I discovered that actually I wasn't so bad in the ranking and depending on the next round, Top4 was doable! :laugh: So clearly I had to scout and do it good. :tongue:

Round 5 vs Eflball (version NO) 2-0
Incidentally I actually have scouted his last game and I know what he is playing. So against all odds, I will then put my bet on making sure no Natural Order will go through my counterspells even if it means allowing a Glimpse. Game 1, I put a T1 Lavamancer and started shooting the pointy ears at sight, then a Delver came to put some pressure and I finish demoralizing my opponent by countering his las-resort NO. Out 4 Spell Pierce and 1 Ponder, In 2 Surgical and 3 Submerge. Game 2 my opponent started with a Llano while on my side a first Delver came in. T2 he started to invade the board and I put a 2 Delver. T3, Gamble-time! as he started by landing a Glimpse with enough mana open to pay Pierce. I smelled a trap and let the Glimpse resolve. After a few Elf-drops, my opponent attempted to cast a NO, met a FoW FTW. After the hand shake, my (bitter) opponent starts telling me about my dubious play letting the Glimpse resolve, I answer that I know and this was clearly a gamble that could have gone sour... but no. Oh well...
3-1-1 (7-1-4) Well, not so bad for a first Liga day!

Results are given and, surprise, am 4th ex-aequo with 10pts! Pretty nice. :smile:

I feel like the list is quite decent. I unfortunately never really used my side cards apart Surgical Extraction (and Divert, once) so it is hard to see what has to be removed/tweaked. Thunderous Wrath and Price are really good and always gave me the edge I needed to win. 12 counterspells may look like a lot to some but it is the compromise I found to deal with Combo.deck on the same ground and prevent T2-kills (or at least, to prevent this happens too often).

Feedback welcome :)

15 lands? You got a lot of guts to run that risk!

[Megadeus]

Especially in a deck that wants to hit at least 3 lands by the end of the game...

[Rocco111]

Actually I got the idea from another player in a different forum and tbh it works pretty well, thanks to the 8 cantrips. I did playtest the list quite a lot before. I used to run 19 lands (incl 2 wasteland) and going down to 15 still works.
You need 3 lands in the late game, true. But then at this point it is either to ensure a winning 'flashbacked' bolt/counter. Both have to give you the game otherwise the game is either completely stalled or lost.
If the game is stalled, well, you most probably will have more land-drops over time anyway. Moreover having less lands means having more space for spells and our curve being quite low to begin with, it isn't so much of a problem.
This is also the reason why I only run 2 snapcaster mages. To play more of them I would obviously have to increase the number of lands.

[chinitoz30]

Actually I got the idea from another player in a different forum and tbh it works pretty well, thanks to the 8 cantrips. I did playtest the list quite a lot before. I used to run 19 lands (incl 2 wasteland) and going down to 15 still works.
You need 3 lands in the late game, true. But then at this point it is either to ensure a winning 'flashbacked' bolt/counter. Both have to give you the game otherwise the game is either completely stalled or lost.
If the game is stalled, well, you most probably will have more land-drops over time anyway. Moreover having less lands means having more space for spells and our curve being quite low to begin with, it isn't so much of a problem.
This is also the reason why I only run 2 snapcaster mages. To play more of them I would obviously have to increase the number of lands.i think 15 lands are not enough in my opinion especially if your opponent has a stifle or wasteland, because normally U/R run 18-19 lands with 8 cantrips and sometimes its hard to stable your manabase if your opponent run stilfe or with your 7 opening cards with just 1-2 lands and then you did not draw any land its hard to win in that case because you cannot use your snap to flashback a spell etc, i just wondered with 15 lands on your list that you did not mulligan? And also if you miss a land drop and if your opponent did not miss a land drop, your daze and pierce would not be effective as well.

[Ertai87]

Haven't been around for a while, put away this deck for a bit, but I recently came back to it and so far I've won or placed highly in the last 3 Legacy events I've played it in, so I thought I'd come back for a bit and report on what I'm doing with the deck these days, for anyone who cares. First, the list:

Creatures: (15)
4x Delver
4x Snapcaster
4x Goblin Guide
3x Grim Lavamancer

Spells: (25)
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning
2x Price of Progress
1x Fire // Ice
4x Daze
3x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

Land: (20)
4x Red Fetch
4x Blue Fetch
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic
1x Steam Vents (I don't own 4 Volcanic)
2x Island
2x Mountain

Sideboard: (15)
1x Price of Progress
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Fire // Ice
4x Submerge
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Blue Blast
1x Hydroblast
1x Spell Pierce
2x Smash to Smithereens
1x Engineered Explosives

I found the maindeck list on an SCG open a couple weeks back. I tweaked it a bit from the original list, though: The original list plays 4 Volcanic, but I don't own them so I'm playing a Steam Vents instead; so far it's been relevant quite infrequently, although I don't think you can play fewer than 3 actual Volcanics; 2 Steam Vents would probably kill the deck. The original list also played 4 Chain Lightnings and no Fire // Ice, but both due to card availability and due to the fact that Fire // Ice is just the stone cold nuts, I had to change that slot. The other 58 cards are identical though.

I also overhauled the sideboard quite substantially. I didn't at all like the sideboard from the SCG open, so I rebuilt it from scratch, and I'm very happy with my sideboard. The only thing I'd like to change is the Surgicals, which haven't been doing much (although nobody in my meta plays a Dredge-like deck; I'm not sure if I'd cut them in a more general metagame).

One important point is that I think this deck is best in a metagame with a bunch of midrangey decks or combo decks. More controllish decks, such as Team America, Stoneblade/Miracles, etc, are really bad for this deck, or at least my particular build of it. Those are my problem matchups. The main feature of this deck is how hard it wrecks green-based midrange. Here's a brief guide to that matchup:

Vs. Green-based 3-color midrange (i.e. your best matchup)
-9x Counterspells
+4x Submerge
+1x Fire//Ice
+2x Smash
+1x Vortex
+1x Price

The idea is that you're the aggro and they're the control. You want to kill them before your Goblin Guides etc get outclassed by their Tarmogoyfs etc. Paradoxically, the countermagic in the deck doesn't really do anything; they have too many threats for you to reasonably deal with. Instead, focus on killing them before their deck starts going. Your burn will mostly be aimed at their guys that stand in the way of your Goblin Guides and Insectile Aberrations, rather than going to the dome (of course, if you need to Bolt them out, it's fine to do so, but you're not playing monored here and it's important to remember that). Most of these decks will be GW with Stoneforge Mystic or GU with Shardless Agent; for these decks, Smash to Smithereens is basically a 2-for-1. If you have knowledge somehow that they don't have access to artifacts, you can change your sideboard plan accordingly. If you're blind, I'd err on the side of "they're bringing in Jitte" and board in the Smashes.

In the 3-color midrange matchup, it's also important to remember that Price of Progress is a very big part of your game plan and play accordingly. Your opponent, playing a 3-color deck with a greedy manabase, can't play around Price of Progress very easily, but you both can and should. Preboard, it's OK to fetch up a Volcanic or 2, but postboard you should do whatever you can to play off only basics. In fact, I would go so far as to say that a hand of blue spells + red fetchlands is a mulligan postboard unless the hand contains multiple Brainstorms, and the reverse hand is a 100% mulligan without question.

Anyway, not really looking for feedback or replies, just providing some data and my thoughts for anyone who cares.

[KobeBryan]

i think 15 lands are not enough in my opinion especially if your opponent has a stifle or wasteland, because normally U/R run 18-19 lands with 8 cantrips and sometimes its hard to stable your manabase if your opponent run stilfe or with your 7 opening cards with just 1-2 lands and then you did not draw any land its hard to win in that case because you cannot use your snap to flashback a spell etc, i just wondered with 15 lands on your list that you did not mulligan? And also if you miss a land drop and if your opponent did not miss a land drop, your daze and pierce would not be effective as well.

15 lands...shit. I thought going 17 is bad.

[blindspotxxx]

How do we beat TES? Even with 2 Counters they can just Silence and Pay for your Dazes.

I run

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Vendillion Clique

and I can board in 4 Surgicals for Game 2. But TES is less graveyard reliant as compared to ANT
Silence is a bitch!

[Rocco111]

I know, I know... '15 Lands?! U MAD?!??' is also the reaction I had when I read a guy was playing 14 land. Yep, 14! And all non-basic. But then I tried for myself and I tweaked the manabase by removing 1 Volc & adding 2 basics (1 island & 1 mountain, against wasteland & Bloodmoon). As I said, I did quite some playtest with the list and it works like a charm.

Regarding the mulligan, I will answer with another question, because it seems some have eluded my previous post: In average, when your game ends (especially when you win actually), how many lands to you have in play? And therefore, how many lands does your starting hand really need to be playable?
As I said, to me in more than 70% of my victories, 2 lands are enough. 3 are awesome but not mandatory. And if I have 2 in my starting hand, sure it is great. But in the mean time, I can also mulligan until I have just one land and 2 business spells (ideally a creature and a cantrip or a counter).
What about you?


About TES:
Clique is a good card but the only window to use it would then be when your opponent is playing Silence. And this is not necessarily the best play ever.
You can prevent your opponent from developing his strategy by playing Sulfuric Vortex and/or Pyrostatic Pillar. Pillar comes earlier due to its CCM and will prevent your opponent from using Ad Nauseam too much. Vortex could eventually prevent your opponent from regaining life... and that's about it. So obviously not the best play either. I personally prefer Pillar in this situation and make sure it sticks to the board.
Thing is that, apart from any discard, Silence is the only out against us since Xantid Swarm gets bolted fairly easily. :wink: So you got to counter it, no matter what. Even if you only have one counter because it will instill doubt in your opponent's mind. Additionally, I ALWAYS keep a Lightning Bolt in hand to finish off a greedy/unlucky opponent after Ad Nauseam. A T1 Grim Lavamancer can also be a relevant in the same situation because it allows you to play around a Silence and deals the lethal 2 damages (situation extremely rare, I give you that, if your opponent pays a bit of attention to his life points and the board :tongue:).
Alternatively, if your meta is really heavy on TES, you should consider Leyline of Sanctity... :frown:

[Ertai87]

15 lands with only 2 basics is quite ridiculous. A few reasons why you should not be playing 15 lands:

1) It basically makes Snapcaster a dead card. I notice that your deck plays no Gitaxian Probe, meaning that Snapcaster + anything costs 3 mana or more. Hence you need to hit 3 mana or you may as well be playing Coral Merfolk for all it's worth (in fact, Coral Merfolk might even be better in 15 lands, since it turns off your opponent's Lord of Atlantis)

2) It makes your Price of Progress really awful. Price is one of the best cards in the deck, and having to always 2 yourself with it is not a good place to be. Having the option to play around your own deck and Price your opponent out is a really good out to have.

3) It makes Wasteland completely wreck you. If you ever fetch for a Volcanic and they Waste you, you're basically never hitting your 2nd land again. This turns off a lot of important things in your deck, most importantly the ability to double-bolt your opponent out from 6 (but also Price, Snap, etc).

4) It makes you unable to (or very difficult to) cast 2 spells per turn. This goes hand-in-hand with points 1 and 3, but bears repeating. Having the ability to Bolt someone out from 6, or Snap - Bolt, or Brainstorm - Bolt, or Brainstorm - Price, or whatever, is really important. If you have ever played with (or against) a burn deck, you will know that the bottleneck in that deck is not cards, it's mana. Given infinite mana, Burn would probably be the best deck in the format, but the problem is that it can't cast enough spells fast enough to win the game in a reasonable amount of time. The same applies here. None of the cards in this deck are very good by themselves, but the deck's strength comes from being able to both disrupt the opponent and present threats simultaneously, and that takes mana.

5) Flooding out is mostly a non-issue if you are competent at casting Brainstorm and don't just fire it off willy-nilly. If you found yourself flooding out with 19 land, you were either not mulliganning correctly or you were not casting your Brainstorms properly. In particular, I notice you are playing Thunderous Wrath, which is very counterproductive with Brainstorm and fetchlands in this deck. This is likely the root of your problem with flooding.

Incidentally, regarding your question in the above post, I tend to have roughly 4 lands in play when the game ends. About half the time I'm wishing I only had 3, while about half the time I'm wishing I had a 5th. I think hitting 4 land drops reliably is pretty acceptable. In particular, it allows you to Snap-Price, Snap-Fire//Ice, or allows for Snap-Bolt or Snap-Brainstorm while playing around Daze. It also allows me to cast Daze for free, Brainstorm the land away down to 3, and not feel horrible about doing so.

[Megadeus]

I might play 17 but I pRobably wouldn't do less than 18 lands. Snap becomes so bad

[Rocco111]

Well at least there are some answers coming up.
Despite its flaming-for-free tone, there are some interesting points.
As I said, if I intend to play more snapcaster mage, I will indeed raise the number of lands I play.
Gitaxian Probe, really? The only spell that would fit the bill would be surgical extraction. But I guess that was another one for free.
The basics are there against wasteland. I could, if I wanted to raise the number of land, add at least 1 mountain and 1 island, that's true. Just like I used to play before reducing this number.
I rarely have flooding issues. I mean, it happens every now and then, like everybody else, and I am afraid that a 'good' or 'bad' brainstorm doesn't necessarily always help. MtG is a card game which implies a certain Luck/Fail percentage, no matter how you look at it nor how many statistics you are doing prior to draw your card. Even by playing 15 lands, you actually can get flooded. A ridiculously low percentage but it exists nonetheless. But yeah, maybe I just don't now how to brainstorm/ponder. ;)
I stopped playing F//I even though I really like the card. But atm I do not feel the need to play it in my current metagame. On top of this, if I wanted to play it, once again, I would play more lands. Doesn't make sense otherwise, clearly.
So for you, 4 lands on board at the end of the game is the 'average' desired/comfortable number of lands. OK.

[syfilisx]

Went 3-3 drop at 7 round tournament GPT Strassbourg with Nivmagus build seen in few earlier messages.
First two rounds of extremely painful bad beats. Losing to Rug & Rug Cascade, matchups I rarely lose.
Get myself back up to 3-3, but know 4-3 ain't nearly enough for top8 and drop for highlander with RDW and go 4-1 for prices.

Nothing too exciting to write about but Clout of Dominus on Delver of Secrets carried it's weight against maverick pretty well and Nivmagus Dominated the "mirror" match (Trad. UR Delver) as excepted, shame that I had only g1 of "mirror", since opponent had made sloppy work de-sideboarding and deck-check hit us.

[Ertai87]

As I said, if I intend to play more snapcaster mage, I will indeed raise the number of lands I play.

Alright, let's do some simple math here, shall we?

First, we take as axiomatic that you want to actually use that second line of text on Snapcaster Mage and aren't playing it intending it to be Flash Coral Merfolk. Assuming that, we take as a fact that Snapcaster actually costs 3, since you are not playing anything at all in your deck that you can play off of 2 lands. Now, how often are you actually going to be able to cast Snapcaster Mage?

Assume we are not cracking fetchlands and that every land in the deck does actually produce mana. Note that if we take fetchlands into account, the calculation I'm about to present is actually even worse for you logically due to there being fewer lands in your deck, on average, so I'm doing you a service here by making this assumption.

There are 15/60 cards in your deck. Therefore roughly every 4th card will be a land. Assuming "average" case, you will hit your 1st land on turn 1, your 2nd on turn 2 (8th card), and your 3rd on turn 5 (12th card). Thus you will not cast Snapcaster Mage until turn 5, in average case, unless you simply want Coral Merfolk. Now, what does that mean in the context of Legacy? I'm assuming that because you know what mtgthesource is, you have some sort of inkling of how Legacy as a format works, and you can derive the conclusion yourself without my assistance.

Now, consider: Would you play Flash Coral Merfolk in Legacy? I wouldn't. Whether or not you want to is up to you.


Gitaxian Probe, really? The only spell that would fit the bill would be surgical extraction.

Um...you'd maindeck Surgical? I don't know what to say to that...I'm specifically referring to the fact that your *maindeck* contains no way to get value off of Snapcaster before turn 5 (average case). How do you plan to rectify that?


The basics are there against wasteland. I could, if I wanted to raise the number of land, add at least 1 mountain and 1 island, that's true. Just like I used to play before reducing this number.

I'd like to see you cast a Goblin Guide into 2 more red spells off that manabase without getting blown out by Wasteland. Remember, you're not hitting your 3rd land drop UNTIL TURN 5. 5 IS A BIG NUMBER. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO STRESS THAT POINT MORE.


I rarely have flooding issues. I mean, it happens every now and then, like everybody else, and I am afraid that a 'good' or 'bad' brainstorm doesn't necessarily always help.

Of course. How often do you have screwing issues?


MtG is a card game which implies a certain Luck/Fail percentage, no matter how you look at it nor how many statistics you are doing prior to draw your card.

I don't think you understand how Brainstorm works. Brainstorm is in the deck SPECIFICALLY to mitigate the luck factor of the deck. If you say that you are having luck-based issues despite playing Brainstorm, I think you are misevaluating Brainstorm.


So for you, 4 lands on board at the end of the game is the 'average' desired/comfortable number of lands. OK.

Yes, that is how many lands are required for the deck to function properly. It can function on 3, but only if you're not getting any interaction from the opponent. And certainly not when your 3rd land comes down on turn /5/.

[Rocco111]

Look, most of the things you are saying so far aren't either new nor making me a service. But I can still appreciate the logical, mathematical approach of your reasoning. It is valuable and I take it as such.

Now, in my low-land build, the use of Snapcaster is, as I stated earlier, rather the last resort than the automatic play. Hence what I said: 'either it is the lethal bolt or counter for victory' (that goes pretty well with your demonstration of the land drop per turn rate, which is fairly good), so I do not feel like rectifying anything. And yes, a first hand Snapcaster has quite some chances to get pitched on FoW. Coral Merfolk or Lord of Atlantis are indeed very good at this job, too.

I obviously agree with you about Brainstorm and was using the same logical way of using arguments you did earlier. Speaking of the use of Brainstorm, there was a very interesting article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780-Fishing-Lessons-Pondering-Brainstorm.html)about it from some time ago. I guess that you are referring to it when you are talking about using BS correctly. I invite everyone to give a shot (including people being featured during the SCGs).

Thing is I am not trying to force people to play with this number of lands. On the other hand, I do not necessarily take it for granted that 20 or 18 or 22 lands ARE THE ONLY WAY. Whether you want to try it or not is up to you.

[blindspotxxx]

Played last Sunday at our recent Majors.

Lost to Show and Tell decks but pretty much raped fair decks. Most of the combo matchups boiled down to Game 3 where I have an opening hand of a counterspell but then just ran out before they run out of Combo Pieces. I'm beginning to think that Daze is weak in this deck against control and combo as they can most of the time pay for the Daze when going off.

[syfilisx]

blindspott, I totally share your experience in that matter. If you don't get a Delver out there, you will just eventually run out of counters or end up with taxing counters that they can pay.
I have somewhat better situation with show & tell itself, since I can bolt/brainstorm/daze before flusterstorm to make it harder to pay for it, but I lose to hardcast sneak attack if I don't get good beating going on.

[blindspotxxx]

@syfilisx

Even with an early Delver you somehow still need to draw most of the Counterspells. My opponent had like 2 Show and Tell and a Sneak attack on Game 3 and dropped them Turn 2 and Turn 3. Managed to counter 1 but the 2nd one resolved :( Well if I had the extraction as well that could have swung another way but I didn't.

Our sideboards are very very hard to customize at the moment. This is what I run and I'm not sure what to cut to add Counters.

2 Smash to Smithereens (Stoneblade and Chalice Decks)
2 Sulfuric Vortex (Stoneblade, MBC, BUG Control, Miracles)
2 Lava Spike (Fair Decks and RUG)
1 Fireblast (Fair Decks and RUG)
4 Surgical Extraction (Graveyardhate and Combo)
2 Pyroblast (Combo and Blue Based Decks)
1 Force of Will (Combo)
1 Flusterstorm or Vendillion Clique (Combo Non-Blue)

I find Vendillion Clique supposedly strong but as it happens, If you get a counterwar early on it's useless so I might go back to Flusterstorm. I seriously want to add another Counter in the Sideboard.

[Ertai87]

This deck is very weak to Show and Tell decks, no question, but I find that against Storm-esque decks I can usually get there off the amount of countermagic in the deck. Daze is the weakest counterspell, but unfortunately WotC only gave us 8 free pieces of countermagic to play with, like it or not. Unfortunately one of the strengths of Show and Tell (and has been a strength of the deck since it first became Tier 1 about 2 years ago) is that you can't effectively deal with the combo pieces with a blanket answer that doesn't otherwise suck balls, unless you go way out of your way to do so. One thing I used to play in Merfolk is Sower of Temptation (on the board, of course) to grab their Emrakul if they go for that plan; a similar plan seems not-horrible here either. Of course, you can go out of your way and do stupid things like Angel of Despair or Confusion in the Ranks, but in my experience that's reaching a bit too far.

[Ertai87]

Played a tournament today. Used the exact same list as posted on the previous page. Brief report:

Round 1 + 2: Vs. Myself

Seriously, it didn't matter what my opponents were playing, as I drew/fetched approximately 37 land over 4 games (for round 2 I counted 21, and for round 1 it was a similar number). That's not counting the number of land I shuffled away from Ponders and so on. As it happened, my opponents were playing RUG and UR Landstill, respectively, and I almost beat the Landstill Player anyway, although in game 1 I put him on the mirror rather than Landstill and was playing around his Delvers and Goblin Guides for far too long.

0-2 (0-4)

Round 3: Vs. Show and Tell

Game 1 he plays/fetches only basics and Griselbrands me on turn 4 or 5, from 9 life. I had the bolt if he went to Necro, but he chose not to. He attacked, I blocked with a Delver, attempted to bolt (my own guy, to prevent Lifelink), and he had the Force, so I couldn't win.

Out:
3x Grim
1x Price (he played around it in game 1, thought maybe he was playing a nonbasic-light build)
2x Chain (I think; this could be incorrect)

In:
1x Pierce
2x Surgical
1x Fire // Ice
2x Blue Blast

Game 2 he starts on Leyline of Sanctity, and we durdle for a but until he Shows with 2 extra. I Pierce + Daze, and then Surgical the Show. 2 turns later, like a master, he draws Sneak Attack and casts it. I Force and then rip Snap off the top to take that out of his deck too, at which point he scoops. This game he played a lot of nonbasics, figuring I boarded out Price (which I did).

Out:
1x Chain
1x Bolt
(or something like this?)

In:
2x Price

I brought out the point-burn because I saw him sideboarding only 3 cards, so I figured he wasn't bring out the Leylines, and if he started on Leyline again my burn was all dead. I think I boarded more cards than this, but don't remember what else I boarded. He goes for a quick Sneak Attack (on turn 4, off an Ancient Tomb) into a hand of Delver, Snap, Force x2, Blue Blast, Surgical. That did not go well for him, at all.

1-2 (2-5)

Round 4: Vs. Maverick

Maverick is basically a bye. Exactly what you think happened, happened. He played guys, I cast burn spells, a Lavamancer hit, his deck was kolded, and that was that. Of course, I sideboarded 9 (!) cards anyway, but it wasn't really a match. I'll share my sideboard plan anyway, in case anyone's interested:

Out:
4x Daze
2x Pierce
3x Force

In:
4x Submerge
1x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Smash
1x Price
1x Explosives

I wanted to bring in the Fire//Ice as well, but didn't have anything else to cut for it.

2-2 (4-5)

Round 5: Vs. Omni-Tell

Game 1 we durdled for a bit, then he cast Dream Halls (!). I Forced, he Misdirected. He Drem Halls'd into Omniscience into Brainstorm (0 cards) into Ponder into nothing, and then I untapped and killed him from 11.

In:
2x Smash (for Grim Monolith)
2x Surgical
1x Spell Pierce

Out:
3x Grim
2x Price (saw no red cards in game 1, figured he was monoblue)

Game 2 was uneventful. He never hit his 3rd land drop, I drew triple Goblin Guide.

3-2 (6-5)

At this point standings were posted and I realized I couldn't T8 even by winning out, so I dropped.

Notes on the day:

Big note: Show and Tell is not as bad as previously advertised. The matchup is eminently winnable. They just have to not draw the absolute stone nutter-butters, and sometimes they don't. Mulligan aggressively for countermagic if you know they're Show and Tell. My round 3 and round 5 opponents were nice enough to show me their decks ahead of game 1 (the round 3 opponent by shuffling with his deck tilted slightly towards me, and the round 5 opponent by flipping over an Omniscience while shuffling); given that information, making mulligan decisions to favor UR is not difficult.

Maverick is basically a bye with my build of the deck. My opponent missed a Batterskull trigger in game 2, which helped, but I probably had the game won anyway; I had the Submerge for it in hand. The deck is favored against all variants of midrange (Junk, Jund, Maverick, etc), but is particularly favored against Maverick.

Drawing lands sucks. Draw more Brainstorms. Perhaps cutting to 19 land is correct, as this is the second event in a row I've died to mana flood. More data is required.

Chain Lightning is very awkward and is probably my least-favourite card in the deck. Unfortunately the 4-of rule disallows playing the 8 Lightning Bolts I'd like to play and Shock (et al) is uber-bad.

Price of Progress is worth its maindeck slots, although frequently gets boarded out. I think the deck wants either exactly 0 or exactly 3, but nowhere in-between; the 2 in the maindeck is somewhat of a hedge for game 1 until you can decide the actual optimal number.

Goblin Guide is by far and away the best card in the deck. It goes to show that green is the "fatties" color, while red is the color with the 1 mana bear with 2 upside mechanics and no drawback. Every time I cast turn 1 Goblin Guide I feel like a total master. It's by far the most powerful thing the deck can do, and I keep almost any hand with turn 1 Goblin Guide and pretty much any followup play.

[Megadeus]

I would love to see the buiold that is so good vs Maverick. My buddy who plays Maverick says that he has never lost vs UR delver which I can believe, especially considering that for a time everybody locally was playing the deck when Andrew Schneider won his 2 Opens with it so he got to practice against it a bunch. It just seems like a rough MU for UR.

[blindspotxxx]

@Megadeus

The list with 4 Submerge as sideboard is very good against Maverick. I would list Maverick as a good matchup because outside of Life Gain there's not much interaction they can really play. Racing you is hard, they will die 1st before you do.

@Ertai87

Show and Tell opponents are very winnable you're right but they are usually still favored. On paper they have the upper hand as they almost run the same amount of Counter Magic as we do but they have more enablers and must counter spells. You have to be lucky to actually really beat them.

[Ertai87]

I would love to see the buiold that is so good vs Maverick. My buddy who plays Maverick says that he has never lost vs UR delver which I can believe, especially considering that for a time everybody locally was playing the deck when Andrew Schneider won his 2 Opens with it so he got to practice against it a bunch. It just seems like a rough MU for UR.

Check my list on the previous page. I haven't lost many matches to midrange decks of any sort. Jitte's rough, as is Engineered Plague, but outside of those 2 cards I think I've won almost every green-based midrange match I've played. As blindspot said, Submerge (and knowing how to play it properly) is very important in those matchups, and if you're playing fewer than 4, that's probably why the matchups aren't going well for you.


Show and Tell opponents are very winnable you're right but they are usually still favored. On paper they have the upper hand as they almost run the same amount of Counter Magic as we do but they have more enablers and must counter spells. You have to be lucky to actually really beat them.

On paper, you're right. By playing the matchup a bit today, I'd say it really amounts to the following things:

Beating Show and Tell just by countering their combo pieces is certainly not going to work. That much is obvious; they have too many combo pieces and too much anti-hate. The real trick, I think, is to first present a clock, and then back it up with the aforementioned disruption. They can't go off until turn 3 or 4 (realistically; they could jam it on turn 2 if they either have the nuts or are playing around nothing; we discount the former cause it's unlikely, and we discount the latter because it's not difficult to deal with), by which time we can pretty easily have them between 8 and 11 life. At this point, pretty much any disruption we present ends the game on the spot; if that one combo piece doesn't resolve, they're probably too far away from reloading before we kill them.

Incidentally, and somewhat paradoxically, although I think it makes sense if you think about it, the hand of Force, Daze, Spell Pierce, Bolt, 3 land is not keepable against Show and Tell, while the hand of Delver, Guide, Brainstorm, Snap, 3 land probably is.

I think the matchup really boils down to a lot of luck and not much skill; if you have enough countermagic to stop them from killing you, then you win, otherwise you don't (note that you simply have to draw more than them; that doesn't mean you have to draw a lot, it just means you have to draw enough). Sometimes they draw better than you in terms of hate vs anti-hate and you lose. Sure, that happens. But I don't think it's much worse than 60-40, if even that bad, and postboard you can make it a lot better by increasing your clock or increasing your disruption (or both).

[subzero]

i play ur delver from much time!

i play many many different main deck,
and i think the best way is play main deck like burn deck just with splash blue(delver,snap,barin and ponder)

of course in this way, have absolutely bad matchup against reanimator, and sneak.show,
but have great matchup against tier 1 like jund, team america,canadian!

i play my side just against bad match up, because , against jund, or canadian or team america i don t side in, almost nothing!

[Asthereal]

I get the idea of playing 15 lands. There's another deck that wants two lands in play but preferably not more than that: ANT. And how many does that deck play? 15 exactly. :wink:

This deck absolutely dies to land floods, because it doesn't play any real bombs like Goyf or so, that would provoke the opponent to 1-for-2 them. We need all the business we can get. So playing as little alnds as possible definitely sounds like a solid plan. I don't know whether 15 lands is the right number - I think it's not - but testing will reveal how low we can go. At least it's an interesting suggestion.

[blindspotxxx]

I get the idea of playing 15 lands. There's another deck that wants two lands in play but preferably not more than that: ANT. And how many does that deck play? 15 exactly. :wink:

This deck absolutely dies to land floods, because it doesn't play any real bombs like Goyf or so, that would provoke the opponent to 1-for-2 them. We need all the business we can get. So playing as little alnds as possible definitely sounds like a solid plan. I don't know whether 15 lands is the right number - I think it's not - but testing will reveal how low we can go. At least it's an interesting suggestion.

Ant and Tes have a lot of mana producing spells and artifacts.. We don't, 15 lands seems like you have to Mull so often

[JDK]

I would love to see the buiold that is so good vs Maverick. My buddy who plays Maverick says that he has never lost vs UR delver which I can believe, especially considering that for a time everybody locally was playing the deck when Andrew Schneider won his 2 Opens with it so he got to practice against it a bunch. It just seems like a rough MU for UR.
I was refraining from posting due to the amount of posts that make my brain hurt, but this is something that is just outright bullshit.

[Megadeus]

Maybe it is his build, but I haven't seem him lose to UR. I mean if you get all of your Lightning Bolts sure. But how do you race an 8/8 KOTR with Protection?

[Ertai87]

Maybe it is his build, but I haven't seem him lose to UR. I mean if you get all of your Lightning Bolts sure. But how do you race an 8/8 KOTR with Protection?

There's an old adage a friend once told me which is applicable here: "When does Lightning Bolt kill Emrakul?" "When the controller is at 3 life".

It's basically the same idea here. We don't beat an 8/8 Knight with protection. We lose to that, the same way we lose to Emrakul, Griselbrand, or a Storm count of 10. The way we beat it is that we get the opponent to a very low life total before his Knight becomes unmanageable, and then burn them out from there. I can't explain it any better than that without watching the games your friend plays and seeing if, perhaps, he's getting lucky, perhaps the UR build is weaker to midrange than mine, perhaps the UR player is misplaying, and so on. Without that info, this is the best I can explain how I beat that matchup.

EDIT: I think perhaps you might be going about playing this deck the wrong way. A while ago, Andrew Schneider posted on this thread (I dunno...20 pages back or so?) about his build and his philosophy on playing the deck. At the time, Andrew said that he thought the deck was similar to burn in many aspects, and thus his sideboard plan for the matchups that were weak to burn would be to make his deck as close to burn as possible. He played stuff like Lava Spike in his sideboard, even. At the time, I thought he was insane, but as I became more accustomed to the deck I realized he was absolutely right. Rather than trying to play this deck as a Fish/Tempo deck (those types of decks have horrible midrange matchups), try playing it as a burn deck. That doesn't mean throwing bolts at your opponent's head willy-nilly (only bad burn players actually play burn that way); it means keeping careful track of life totals, planning 2-3 turns ahead of time so you know how much burn is in your hand vs how much life your opponent is at, and figuring out intelligent uses for your burn spells and your attack steps to make sure you get there when you need to.

[Megadeus]

Right. He said today actually that when he would play Andrew and his version he was a bit weaker. he probably had played against weaker opponents in sanctioned events. He said the best hands vs him were the delver hands. Goblin guide quickly becomes bad.

[Ertai87]

Right. He said today actually that when he would play Andrew and his version he was a bit weaker. he probably had played against weaker opponents in sanctioned events. He said the best hands vs him were the delver hands. Goblin guide quickly becomes bad.

That's true, but you can't always draw the nuts, and Goblin Guide is better in most other matchups =P

[Megadeus]

I mean that is understandable. Im not saying GG is bad. Its a great card. That is probably the best T1 dude in the deck to play 90% of the time. Im just saying that against Maverick it gets outclassed easily. Which is why I could very well see Maverick being good against the Non delver draws of the deck. I legitimately would like to see the build that is good vs Maverick. I would like to know what he boards and such for it. Also the fact that Maverick can Swords its own 8/8 KOTR's to gain a bunch of life is solid. Along with MB Jitte for some builds. I can definitely see Maverick being a tough MU sometimes.

[Ertai87]

I legitimately would like to see the build that is good vs Maverick. I would like to know what he boards and such for it. Also the fact that Maverick can Swords its own 8/8 KOTR's to gain a bunch of life is solid. Along with MB Jitte for some builds. I can definitely see Maverick being a tough MU sometimes.

As I said, check out my build. It's on Page 51. It has a very good green-based midrange matchup. My sideboard, as previously mentioned, boards out the countermagic suite for a more burn and removal-heavy suite to try to race the tempo decks rather than trying to manage their threats with 1-for-2s and conditional countermagic. In particular, my general sideboard plan for green-based midrange is as follows:

-9x countermagic
+4x Submerge
+2x Smash to Smitereens (for Jitte, Batterskull)
+1x Price of Progress
+1x Fire // Ice
+1x Sulfuric ortex
+1x Engineered Explosives

Note that this is 9 cards out and 10 cards in; sometimes you bring in some cards and not other cards, depending on the particulars of the opponent's deck.

[Megadeus]

Why only the one vortex? It seems so good against like everything

[Heresy]

What do you guys think of this list? Anybody tested Gitaxian Probe? Seems to me like it doesn't do enough against combo g1.

Mythic Games 3/9/13

Dan Bergquist, 7th Place

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Vapor Snag
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze

3 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Island
2 Mountain

SB:
4 Submerge
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Force of Will
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Fire//Ice

[Ertai87]

Why only the one vortex? It seems so good against like everything

I don't think it quite does what you think it does. A couple problems with Vortex:

1) The obvious one but the least one, it costs 3. This means you play it on turn 3. This means on turn 3 you're not playing Snap - Brainstorm, or Brainstorm - flip Delver - Bolt with Daze protection, or something else that costs 3 mana. It also means it's a dead card in your hand until turn 3.

2) Another problem, it costs RR. This means you can't curve Vortex easily into Snap - Brainstorm without fetching a Volcanic, which makes you weaker to Wasteland and your own Prices (you don't care about their Prices because you don't bring in Vortex against Price decks, but you do care greatly about your own Prices because you will often board both cards in at the same time). Casting it is awkward.

3) You never ever want to draw the second copy. The clock is just too fast, and having 2 cards that cost 3 basically ties up your mana for a large portion of the game. You can Brainstorm away the second one, but then you're not Brainstorming away land. Brainstorm is very strong, but you can't put too much pressure on it or it'll break.

4) Not enough room in the sideboard. It's really that easy. There was too much else I wanted to put in, and I ran out of space. The 16th card would probably be either the 2nd Vortex or the first Vendilion Clique.


What do you guys think of this list? Anybody tested Gitaxian Probe? Seems to me like it doesn't do enough against combo g1.

Mythic Games 3/9/13

Dan Bergquist, 7th Place

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Vapor Snag
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze

3 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Island
2 Mountain

SB:
4 Submerge
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Force of Will
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Fire//Ice

My snap-judgments (which may or may not be accurate):

1) This guy's meta was full of Stoneblade. This looks like a build that really really wants to smash the crap out of anything playing Stoneforge Mystic. Between the Git Probes for their Forces, 10-piece countermagic for the counter-wars (with 2 more pieces on the board; I'm playing only 9 with 1 more on board), and the 3-piece Smash in the board, this guy did not want to get beaten by a Batterskull or Jitte, that is for damned sure.

2) This build looks like it might have some mana problems. 17 land is a bit lower than I'd like to play, especially in a deck running 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Price of Progress, and 3 Snapcaster Mage. He cut 1 Snap to compensate, but I'm not sure that's enough.

3) His sideboard looks razor-focused, which can be both good and bad. It can be good, because it means he knows what he wants to beat and he can always beat that, but it means that he loses game against the random decks that might pop up now and again. Against aggro decks that are nongreen, use few relevant artifacts, and don't use the graveyard much, there are at most 4 cards he can board in. This is a little low for my liking; I prefer a more well-rounded approach.

4) I've never played Git Probe, but I'm not quite sure what it does in this deck. Maybe he just wanted to play a 57-card deck? Maybe he wanted a 0-mana card that can get flashed back by Snapcaster due to his low land count? The card seems like a strange choice to me; I wouldn't play it without some more information on what it's there for.

[Heresy]

Another list that should warrant some discussion :

Eudemonia 10/9/13

Jeffrey Tang, 2th

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 Vapor Snag
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Divert
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Mountain

SB:
3 Vendillion Clique
1 Force of Will
1 Divert
1 Sulferic Vortex
1 Umezawa's jitte
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Flustrestorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens

So basically, this build is ditching Grim Lavamancer and Price of Progress for more counters and a full set of Vapor Snag, thus taking a more tempo-oriented direction but, at the cost of reducing the clock. I'd like to add that the creature count is lower than what seems like the accepted one but, by running the four Vapor Snag, removal isn't that scary anymore. I guess this is another example of builds leaning more towards RUG than Burn, which may prove accurate in the right metagame.

[Arew]

I could never ever imagine cutting Price of Progress from the main deck. Basically the only hope of beating Stoneblade G1 is maneuvering the game to a point where resolving Price or Vapor Snag on their Germ token wins the game.

[syfilisx]

Hello fellow UR Delver players, it's your cousin Nivmagus-Delver in the house again. Went 3-2 in GPT Strassbourg today, made it in top4 and went into finals, splitting Strassbourg bye's to other player who was going & getting 140 euros worth store credit for myself.

This tournament had pretty weird meta, there was another trial for big local tournament in other town same time. They had all the combo's, we had all the fair decks. Pretty many Rugs, few Bugs, Stoneblade variants and of course single Dredge and Turbo Eldrazi.

Something about matches & matchups.

Round 1 vs RUG Delver
Won the roll, T1 Nivmagus. He T1 Bolts it, I FOW with FOW, and eat it. Nivmagus 3/4. Nivmagus rolls the game by itself, getting pretty big and rolling over tarmogoyfs and Delvers, Game going to point where he double blocks 7/8 Nivmagus with 4/5 Goyf & flipped delver, bolting it, which I respond with flusterstorm, he scoops.
G2: He shuts himself out of green, by bolting T1 Nivmagus, I play second T2 and clout it. Clouted Nivmagus rides to victory while he finds green too late and Goyf gets submerged to clear way to lethal and massive Nivmagus.
Sideboard: -4x FOW -1 Daze, +3 Submerge +1 REB +1 Clout
1-0

Round 2 vs RUG Cascade
G1 I get there with big Nivmagus early and after he cascades board full of guys, I find Snapcaster to price of progress him for good amount.
G2 & G3, Techy Gilded Drake's & Firespout win him the games, also pretty good cascades.
I should probably not lose these games too often, since his deck needs mana and plays zero nonbasics. But yeah, happens sometimes. Luckily he is friend of mine.
1-1

Round 3 vs OOPS All Spells/Rogue Hermit/Boo yaa going for it
G1 Delver & Fow, Woop woop. He tries to go for it, but I have distruption needed and fast clock
G2 Have good distruption, but he has better. Two pact of negations get me despite very good hand and clock. Sutured ghoul swings me to game 3.
G3 Hand of Six consisting of 2 lands, Delver, ponder & 2 dazes. Delver blind flips from Flusterstorm. He was one turn short from Empty the warrens kill. Lucky me will luck.
Sideboard: -2 Price of Progress (duh), -1 Chain Lightning, -1 Grim Lavamancer, +3 Surgicals +1 Shattering spree.
2-1

Round 4 vs Junk Stoneblade (BWG Deadguy or Rock/w Mystics, who knows)
G1 Grim Lavamancers and burn. He lacks some removal and does not much else than deny me blue-mana and discard all my nice blue cards that rot in my hand.
G2 Delver T1, Delver T2. He lacking removal again. Lingering souls gets flustered first time, he considers flashbacking, but see's Sulfur Elemental & other Flusterstorm with IOK. Plays BOB for that turn, already at 5. Forgots BOB trigger, I say to not put it on stack after judge call ,even while he's at five life. Draw Price of Progress I was hiding top of my deck from brainstorm turn before he IOK'd. I had this game on so many fronts, but now when I think back to it, I should probably submerged confidant in response to trigger to do 2 damage and be sure he draws at least one "do nothing"-card that turn.
Sideboard: -4 Fow,-1 Chain Lightning, +1 Sulfur Elemental, +2 Smash to Smithereens, +1 Shattering spree, +1 Clout of Dominus
3-1

Round 5 vs URW Stoneblade
This guy was undefeated in tournament. He offered ID, but since there was some variables like possibility 9 point guy paired to 6 point guy winning and dropping me if I take ID, so I choose to play. I lost 1-2, after three very tight games.
G3 was high point of this... I dropped a Delver & Clouted it, he supreme verdicts. I drop Delver & clout it, he supreme verdicts. I play 2 Nivmaguses in two turns and proceed to give both some counters with flusterstorm to play around STOP's. He has detention sphere.
3-2

Was pretty sure I was out of top 4, but then came good news of 9 points guy losing to six point guy. Top4 was consisting of URW player with 15 points, Rug Cascade I played with 10 points and yours truly with 9 points.

Played URW again in semi's this time snatching 2-0 win. First game was him not just getting past 2 lands. G2 was grindy and I was on 1 volcanic island for like atleast 5 turns, but managed to keep into game by shattering spreeing batterskull etc. After going back and forth, me smashing his SOFAF to smithereens and removal being flung, he disenchanting my sulfuric vortex. I was at three life and he was at 2 in the end. His board was 2 mystics, Ethersworn canonist after attack. He supreme verdicted and tried to snapcaster a bolt to my face, my hand was luckily do-nothing-fetchland & flusterstorm. Then I took turn and dropped chain lightning from top of my deck, which I had put there with brainstorm (for some stupid reason I put the cards in order vortex, chain lighting...).

My opponent was feeling pretty bad, since he was going to GP and I had said that I am not going. But I had traveled few hundred km for this tournament, and this game was difference between 35 and 60 euros store credits for me, maybe even more. It turned out to be much more after I split finals for 140 euros worth store credits.

I feel sincerely bad for my URW opponent, but sometimes you have to do what is right for yourself, even if it means crushing someone else's dreams.

The List
18 Lands
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

13 Creatures
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

27 Sorcery/Instant
4 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
2 Price of Progress

1 Clout of Dominus

SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Price of Progress
1 Shattering Spree
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Clout of Dominus

Thanks for reading
Jani & The Nivmaguses

[blindspotxxx]

Starcitygames Invitational 21 Points or Better

Lord Andrew Schneider

Creatures (15)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

Lands (19)

2 Island
2 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Wooded Foothills

Spells (26)

4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce
4 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

Sideboard

2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
2 Smelt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Lava Spike

Are we back? I've switched to Sneak Show for a while lol Congratulations Andrew!

[Megadeus]

I mean Andrew is just really good with the deck. Is the only deck he plays lol

[Andrew.Schneider]

Are we back? I've switched to Sneak Show for a while lol Congratulations Andrew!

Haha thanks. I haven't checked in here much recently I've mostly been trying out other decks. I'm not sure if its fair to call U/R well positioned again, I just played the deck I knew I would do best with (the money at the invitational is too good to mess up). That is what half of legacy is about in my opinion. I did LOVE my board at this event. The lava spikes still feel so right. If only I didn't lose my standard win and in to top 8 I could have played more rounds of legacy. drats...


I mean Andrew is just really good with the deck. Is the only deck he plays lol

Thanks, but you know I've tried other stuff. I just lose way more matches :)

[Heresy]

Might be useful for a 20 lands build :

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141224&d=1365653080

EDIT : There's some applications there and there but it's just an inferior Fire / Ice. Possible SB material?

[Artlee]

Andrew Schneider

First of all, congratulations. Will there be a tournament report?

[Andrew.Schneider]

Andrew Schneider

First of all, congratulations. Will there be a tournament report?

http://roxiecards.com/welcome-to-atlanta-scg-invitational-report/

[JDK]

I see you went to 19 lands. ;)

[Artlee]

http://roxiecards.com/welcome-to-atlanta-scg-invitational-report/

Thanks! I really like that you mention deck familiarity. Unrelated to UR Delver, I am fairly sure this is what led to Thomas Enevoldsen winning GP Strasbourg, as he has played the deck forever.

[syfilisx]

So it's your ugly cousin Nivmagus of Secrets here, again.

Played my list (can be found in few earlier posts) with -1 Snapcaster into +1 Vendilion Clique in small local tournament.

Round 1 - Rock
Paired against me and my friends other deck Rock. Was feeling pretty negative about all that hard removal.
G1
Was fast enough and he drew mostly lands. Clouted Delver was a beast.
G2
He only had three nonland permanent + Abrupt decay whole game. Engineered Plague on Wizards shut my all threats expect Nivmagus down. Vendilion Clique took one for the team to get jitte out of his hand, but two deathrite shamans offered pretty nice clock.
G3
Again was fast. Price of Progress and multiple Delvers beating also Grim Lavamancers doing pretty good work. He had lot's of removal, but I just topdecked threat after threat.
2-1

Round 2 - URW Delver
G1
He drew only 1 removal. I had much faster clock. Nivmaguses got some value out of flusterstorms countering his spells.
G2
He got pretty aggressive start and beat me to 7. I then traded clouted Delver to Geist, he had Pyroblast to Clout, so he made it a trade. I guess this was where he went wrong, since getting rid of the cloat and killing Delver separately, since I have pretty much zero non-combat answers to resolved Geist. Then we traded bolts for threats and I got Clouted 5/6 Nivmagus & 3/4 Nivmagus. But he got Circle of Protection RED with 6 life. So he just prevented damage and I collected stuff to force myself though. All my non-red threats met their demise. Match went to time because of him unable to kill me either. Game ended in draw. I had 1 life, after extraction to his bolts and double dazing and flustering his ponder on his extra turn 2. This way I knew he had no mana to cast threat and prevent me from killing us both with Price of Progress or maybe even winning with Nivmaguses and bolts. Pretty weird game.
3-1-1

Round 3 - Rug Cascade
G1On the play. Nivmagus go. He tries to bolt, Nivmagus eats fow. Beating with Nivmagus and burning with lavamancer. He got card advantage and blockers from cascades, but price of progress in response to shardless agent cascading into visions put him into Nivmaguses range. After the Price resolved, I fowed agent which was on the stack and get to hit lethal with Nivmagus.
G2 Clouted Delver MVP all day long. He traded my non clouted non-flipped Delver to Gilded drake, going to get drake back with Jace for incremental value, but I was too fast for that plan. Active Grim Lavamancer & Smash to Smithereens in hand got him to situation that even flipping stolen Delver would have not got him out of it.
5-1-1
Round 4 Finals - Bug Cascade
G1 I got one hit in with 3/4 Nivmagus, then it eats decay. Delver gets FOW. I don't draw anymore threats and he does what his deck does, advancing the board to situation I cannot catch up with. I go playing burn and get him to 5 before dying. Tough luck, drew bit too many lands.
G2 He was testing Chill on sideboard against burn (and had me in mind too), T2 chill GG. I didn't find third land even with four brainstorms before I died.
5-3-1
I have a strong feeling, that I suck at writing reports, maybe I should take more notes or learn this language or something, but yeah. Today's new things I tested were siding out 2x Chain Lighting in favor of 2x Smash to Smithereens against those cascade decks, since they are "nearly" two for 1, they are bolt to head/planeswalker and destroy agents & Strixs, while also answering jitte's they might be playing. Rug played one maindeck for sure, not 100% positive about if Bug had one.

Vendilion Clique didn't prove itself today, it will take more testing to see if replacing a snapcaster with it was right. Snapcaster + bolt just seems amazing in many matchups.

Cheers, Jani

ps. Got pretty cool mini-binder with holographic covers and 5 GTC boosters, which were pretty ok, since I got Aurelia Warleader that somebody might want to trade for and Sacred Foundry.

[Angelteg]

Been playing this deck for a couple of weeks now, and I really like it, and as I learn the deck more I am doing better with it. I went 2-1 last night in an 8 player weekly event, losing to the only 3-0 and taking second.

The one thing I'm feeling about the deck is that my best games are when I have 2 creatures and a daze in the opener. Dropping a delver/guide then dazing whatever he does turn 1 or turn 2 is a fantasitc start.

I also find that in a lot of matchups my Spell Pierces are not really a factor and that I always wish it were another creature.

Long story short, I feel like I need another creature for the main deck or sideboard. I don't really like Nivmagus because in general I like the spells to be used for their purposes. I'm thinking about Vexing Devil or Phantasmal Bear. Any thoughts? Any other creatures I should consider?

[Megadeus]

Been playing this deck for a couple of weeks now, and I really like it, and as I learn the deck more I am doing better with it. I went 2-1 last night in an 8 player weekly event, losing to the only 3-0 and taking second.

The one thing I'm feeling about the deck is that my best games are when I have 2 creatures and a daze in the opener. Dropping a delver/guide then dazing whatever he does turn 1 or turn 2 is a fantasitc start.

I also find that in a lot of matchups my Spell Pierces are not really a factor and that I always wish it were another creature.

Long story short, I feel like I need another creature for the main deck or sideboard. I don't really like Nivmagus because in general I like the spells to be used for their purposes. I'm thinking about Vexing Devil or Phantasmal Bear. Any thoughts? Any other creatures I should consider?

I assume you already run the 4x Delvers and 4x Goblin Guides along with 3x Grim Lavamancer?

[Angelteg]

I assume you already run the 4x Delvers and 4x Goblin Guides along with 3x Grim Lavamancer?

Yes, sorry. I should probably have mentioned that.

4 Delver
4 Guide
3 lavamancer
4 Snapcaster

4 FoW
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Shock
2 Spell Pierce
2 vapor Snag
3 Price of Progress

And 18 Land you would expect

My sideboard has been:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Grafdiggers Cage
3 Pithing Needle

[lithiux]

Do you find the instant speed of Shock to be relevant a lot? Or, I guess a better question is do you find the extra damage of Chain Lightning to never be relevant?

[Angelteg]

My meta has A LOT of Goblins in it, amd I found it frustrating that they were always able to return the Chain Lightning back at me. I also find that 2 damage is enough to kill just about every important creature that Chain lightning could, and yes, I feel instant speed has helped me moreson than the extra one damage.

Edit: For some reason I write "Shock" even though I actually use Burst Lightning from Zendikar. Same card, but if I have extra mana floating around I can use it to kick the Burst Lightning to the dome.

[JDK]

Redirecting Chain Lightning is not an easy task for a Goblin deck, since they usually play up to twelve (~50% of their manabase), non-red sources (Cavern cannot produce :r: for this effect) and tap out frequently unless they get to stick an early Aether Vial. If you are really concerned about the deck being such a DTB in your meta, you should reflect that in your sideboard and other card choices...

[SirTylerGalt]

Redirecting Chain Lightning is not an easy task for a Goblin deck, since they usually play up to twelve (~50% of their manabase), non-red sources (Cavern cannot produce :r: for this effect) and tap out frequently unless they get to stick an early Aether Vial. If you are really concerned about the deck being such a DTB in your meta, you should reflect that in your sideboard and other card choices...

Yeah, I'd run Forked Bolt before I ran Shock. Forked Bolt is good at dispatching goblins, and also helps Elves, Lingering Souls token, DRS...

[Psyqo]

Sleeved up UR Delver and am running it for the first time tonight in a weekly event that usually sees 8-14 players. The shop is very combo heavy, so I'm wondering what changes you would make to the deck to fight combo more? My first thought is to weight more heavily on Spell Pierces than Dazes, but after that I'm not sure what else I'd do against decks like SnT, TES, Belcher, Dredge or High Tide (of which there are usually 1 of each at this event).

[SirTylerGalt]

Sleeved up UR Delver and am running it for the first time tonight in a weekly event that usually sees 8-14 players. The shop is very combo heavy, so I'm wondering what changes you would make to the deck to fight combo more? My first thought is to weight more heavily on Spell Pierces than Dazes, but after that I'm not sure what else I'd do against decks like SnT, TES, Belcher, Dredge or High Tide (of which there are usually 1 of each at this event).

Flusterstorm is pretty good against SnT / TES / Belcher / High Tide. The Nivmagus / Flusterstorm version is actually really good against most combo decks, since Nivmagus can kill them really fast (they don't play removal). You often end up Flusterstorming a key spell, and exiling all the remaining copies to grow Nivmagus to a 11/12.

For Dredge, I guess I'd go with Surgical Extraction + Snapcaster Mage and try to extract Narcomoeba in response to the ETB triggers...

[SupREME-10]

Flusterstorm anyone.

Seriously, I run a couple in my SB and they have served me well.

Cheers

[blindspotxxx]

I would advise running Schneider's list but modifying the SB with more Red Elemental Blasts and Flusterstorms for a combo heavy Meta :) Maybe add 2 more Flusterstorms and 1 Red Elemental Blast

[Andrew.Schneider]

I would advise running Schneider's list but modifying the SB with more Red Elemental Blasts and Flusterstorms for a combo heavy Meta :) Maybe add 2 more Flusterstorms and 1 Red Elemental Blast

Yeah, what he said. If you have to play against more combo decks than fair decks you can shave the burn in the board down for the 4th surgical and the flusterstorms. I like our matchup against the decks you listed. TES is the hardest out of them though, pretty sure I'm only even against it lifetime.

[Andrew.Schneider]

I see you went to 19 lands. ;)

Yeahhhh, haha. I saw lots of crazy people not losing with their 18 lands decks so I caved and cut one for another counter.

[blindspotxxx]

Based from my observation, U/R Delver needs to cast more spells than the opponent to win. We play really cost efficient spells, maybe the most cost efficient spells of all the decks, but the problem is they're not game breaking. When we mana flood or go diligent farmer mode with so many top deck lands we suffer the most as compared to other decks. Just my 2 cents :)

[slikwilly]

Do we have any means of dealing w/ a Progenitus on board? There's a player at my shop who runs NO-Pro Bant and if I lose the counter war over the Natural Order I need some serious luck to pull out the win. My main deck counter suit is 4 FoW, 2 Pierce, 2 Daze, 1 Flusterstorm. In the board I have 2 REB, 2 Pierce. Should I be aiming burn at his dudes to try to keep him off a green creature to sac? My usual plan of attack is to land an early threat or two to try to kill him before he's able to get the second swing he usually needs w/ Progenitus to finish me and so I hold the burn, but maybe that's not correct.

[Wincheee]

. If u are not running Nivmagus Elemental, Ensnaring Bridge/ Meekstone seems a good sideboard option.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Do we have any means of dealing w/ a Progenitus on board? There's a player at my shop who runs NO-Pro Bant and if I lose the counter war over the Natural Order I need some serious luck to pull out the win. My main deck counter suit is 4 FoW, 2 Pierce, 2 Daze, 1 Flusterstorm. In the board I have 2 REB, 2 Pierce. Should I be aiming burn at his dudes to try to keep him off a green creature to sac? My usual plan of attack is to land an early threat or two to try to kill him before he's able to get the second swing he usually needs w/ Progenitus to finish me and so I hold the burn, but maybe that's not correct.

Curfew, I guess?

There is probably something better though. I think burn to the dome might be the most effective answer.

[JDK]

Do we have any means of dealing w/ a Progenitus on board?

Short answer: No.

That's a problem RUG has too and the approach here is to never let them resolve such a thing or be faster. Curfew isn't that great, because it's very narrow (read: it's not always good). I'd rather board in additional counter-magic and stick to the gameplan: Get a clock online, dispose of NO-sacrifices (if you are not sure you can win a counter-war) and search for counters.

[slikwilly]

Short answer: No.

That's a problem RUG has too and the approach here is to never let them resolve such a thing or be faster. Curfew isn't that great, because it's very narrow (read: it's not always good). I'd rather board in additional counter-magic and stick to the gameplan: Get a clock online, dispose of NO-sacrifices (if you are not sure you can win a counter-war) and search for counters.

My current board:
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Price of Progress
2 Gilded Drake
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

Curfew is no good due to being narrow and that they often have another body on board anyway. Ensnaring Bridge I fear will stop Delver too often and is also a bit high on the CMC for this deck. I think burn is probably my best bet, finding a way to squeeze the Lava Spikes I see Andrew was running recently Lava Spike in board recently. Maybe I'll give that a shot. The games are usually close, and extra burn to the dome would be enough to swing it.

[blindspotxxx]

Depends how early the Progenitus makes it on the board. You can race it with burn and early creatures :) Don't go all on defense mode

[SBGpinas]

It really depends how much damage you've dealt to the opponent by the time Progenitus enters the battlefield.

If you've dealt a significant amount of damage by then, then Progenitus is pretty immaterial, as you can still out-race it.

If you haven't, then it probably means you keep top decking lands, which explains why you allowed NO/SnT to resolve AND don't have enough Burn to outrace Progenitus.

[syfilisx]

Went 3-2 and into top8 from 8th seed in Porotour Trial. Porotour is probably the biggest Legacy event in Finland this year, check it out if you are interested to do some Nordic Legacy Traveling. http://porotour.com/porotour-events/legacy/ (Porotour) here.

I was playing the Nivmagus list that has been posted here for number of times. Testing -1 Snapcaster + 1 Vendilion Clique MD & -1 Submerge +1 Counterbalance in SB, not sure if those have been mentioned in last lists.

Swiss:
Elves 2-0
Mulled to 5 G1, got hand of Nivmagus + Chain + Bolt, some lands. Found flusterstorm & brainstorm and made myself a clock while killing his guys.
G2 I Vendilion Cliqued his natural order, that was probably good for my life total.

Sneaky Show 0-2
Disappointing, first game I just didn't have anything for hardcasted Sneak attack (staring at you flusterstorm), game two he casted 2 Blood moons in successive turns, I fowed first, second I could not answer. Hadn't seen basics nor fetches that game. He show & tells Sneak attack , I put clique. He shows two Emrakuls & daze. Nice game sir.

TES 0-2
G1 Lose the roll, in comes the goblins t2.
G2 Keep maybe a bit shady hand because of Counterbalance. I extract him of both brainstorms & ponders, but counterbalance betrays me every time and I die horribly.

TES 2-1
Got good beatings online, he had to mull to 5 g3, which was a beating for him.

4color stoneblade 2-0
First game I was too fast with Nivmagus. G2 I had two dazes for his first two plays and ripped from top of my deck like a pro, just what I needed everytime.

Got beaten by MUD in top8, sometimes it's like that.

Counterbalance was resolved first time in this deck today, but I am not really sure if it's worth a slot, or if I should play something else for combo etc. Suggestions?

Cheers
Jani

[KobeBryan]

wow you can top 8 with a 3-2

[syfilisx]

wow you can top 8 with a 3-2

It seems that in 19-20 players event you can, if you lose only to top8 players. I even top4:d the last Strasbourg trial like that. I am master at getting to top with 3-2, you could say...:rolleyes:

[blindspotxxx]

I don't think Counterbalance is suitable in this deck :)

Usually if you include that package you need some Tops to go with it.

[Megadeus]

My current board:
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Price of Progress
2 Gilded Drake
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

Curfew is no good due to being narrow and that they often have another body on board anyway. Ensnaring Bridge I fear will stop Delver too often and is also a bit high on the CMC for this deck. I think burn is probably my best bet, finding a way to squeeze the Lava Spikes I see Andrew was running recently Lava Spike in board recently. Maybe I'll give that a shot. The games are usually close, and extra burn to the dome would be enough to swing it.
Right. With the added burn you can easily race a Progenitus

[blindspotxxx]

Is this our Red Confidant? lol

http://mythicspoiler.com/m14/cards/youngpyromancer1.html

[FANAttIC]

It is certainly not an awfull creature. Also not something I expected to see, rather unique effect for red.

[Piceli89]

If I was you I'd seriously start to tweak new builds that accomodate Pyromancer. I feel he's finally the creature for UR delver that may gtfo the horrible Goblin Guide and push the deck back to a tier1,5 status, he's insane if left undisturbed for 2 turns. Yesterday I tried it in my UR list (which is more geared towards Clique and Jace) and being able to continuously creating chumps kept a 12/12 Kotr at bay for 6 turns. I can't even imagine what he could do into a more aggressive build with app.ly 26 i/s and Delver.

[slikwilly]

Cool card, but not exactly in the same league as SFM/SCM/Bob/Goyf when it comes to 1X dudes. Probably doesn't belong in more aggressive builds (since you'd probably rather it be burn), but there might be a way to build around it. Wish it were hasty. Much easier call then.

[beez]

Is this our Red Confidant? lol

http://mythicspoiler.com/m14/cards/youngpyromancer1.html

That dude looks pretty good. should be great for Niv Magus builds.

[Megadeus]

Drop Goblin Guide? Cant tell if serious...

[syfilisx]

Would never drop a Goblin Guide for 2 drop that does nothing turn you cast it. (That is if I hadn't already dropped guide for 1 mana squire). I feel that Nivmagus build too has better things to do with two mana than cast this, but it could probably do something in deck that has more free spells. Just my first impressions, could probably be okay with a little additional support.

[Piceli89]

Drop Goblin Guide? Cant tell if serious...

Good luck in keeping having your deck lose steam after turn 4 and being raped by Counterbalance or Tarmogoyf, then. I think it's not really difficult to see how this guy can be dropped on turn 2 and being a must answer in a deck with so many instant and sorceries, whereas they can leave your little Goblin Guide on the ground for 1232 turns and gain card advantage with Brainstorm, recovering mulligans and building to stabilization. Pyromancer alone can create 3/4+ power and keep a board on his own which also expose you less to Terminus and Pyroclasm/EE; if they do, it's been still 1 for 1. Not to mention the Snapcaster sinergy.

I'm *always* happy to see Goblin Guide on the other side of the table, I would be far less to see this thingie coming down if I hadn't a removal spell. Just dropping 2 1/1s mean that, even if I get rid of him, I will suffer 2 damage more every turn and have to deal with 2 other creatures. Take the exact shell you're playing, drop Guide for YP, add 2 Probes, you now have a tempo/burn deck with a card that alone can flood a board at the drawback of what, making the deck slightly slower? Delver Burn is already not optimized for being as fast as burn is, with the increase add of being more consistent. Well, this guy would push it back to a t1,5 status, significantly improving every fair matchup (the green decks for sure); I wouldn't shit on him at all.


Nivmagus is incredibly good. To eat a Plowshares, Liliana or a Decay when you go 3x1 on him, I mean.

[blindspotxxx]

I really like the card. I'll probably test it soon :) It would replace a creature in the deck but not a sorcery or instant because a flipping Delver is still a beast. This might also fit well in the Niv Magus shell with Phyrexian Mana spells. It seems good :) I wish that it would have added creatures with Haste instead of just 1/1's.

[beez]

Will be even better when tribal is around less as I fear this could be a bit of the target of Engineered Plague that is in many sideboards for tribal decks that are doing well, like elves.

[Angelteg]

I feel like he fits into the snapcaster mold of a 2 drop that I'd never cast on turn 2. Put him down on turn 3 and then bolt/brainstorm/ponder to get the most value our of him.

I think I might experiment with -2 snapcaster +2 young pyromancer

[JDK]

Good luck in keeping having your deck lose steam after turn 4 and being raped by Counterbalance or Tarmogoyf, then. I think it's not really difficult to see how this guy can be dropped on turn 2 and being a must answer in a deck with so many instant and sorceries, whereas they can leave your little Goblin Guide on the ground for 1232 turns and gain card advantage with Brainstorm, recovering mulligans and building to stabilization. Pyromancer alone can create 3/4+ power and keep a board on his own which also expose you less to Terminus and Pyroclasm/EE; if they do, it's been still 1 for 1. Not to mention the Snapcaster sinergy.
So you get rid off Goblin Guide, one of the most aggressive cards in the whole deck. Okay. Then you replace the aggressive 1-Drop with a rather slow 2-Drop. I can see the card being better in some situations, but especially against decks with Counterbalance I'd rather play the faster card. Why? A 2-Drop is more likely to get countered (since you are more likely to tap out, more lands are on board, Spell Snare), it takes away much of your own speed and gives the opponent more time to react. When you drop Pyromancer, GG has most likely already done 2 to 4 damage.
Your argument about the mage creating 3/4+ power on its own is cute, but the average a GG is beating for is nothing to sneeze at. I'd also like to ask you to explain the less likelihood to be exposed to a Terminus or Pyroclasm. Oh, and it's only a 1 for 1 if this is your only card on board, which isn't exactly threatening.

As I said, I do see some applications for him and I am definitely going to toy with the card (probably for Modern though), but please consider different aspects of the cards you are evaluating to swap instead of just "A is bad at this, B is good at that".

[kombatkiwi]

I think it's good to consider new cards to add but I don't really think young pyromancer is worth playing.


Good luck in keeping having your deck lose steam after turn 4 and being raped by Counterbalance or Tarmogoyf, then. I think it's not really difficult to see how this guy can be dropped on turn 2 and being a must answer in a deck with so many instant and sorceries, whereas they can leave your little Goblin Guide on the ground for 1232 turns and gain card advantage with Brainstorm, recovering mulligans and building to stabilization. Pyromancer alone can create 3/4+ power and keep a board on his own which also expose you less to Terminus and Pyroclasm/EE; if they do, it's been still 1 for 1. Not to mention the Snapcaster sinergy.

I'm *always* happy to see Goblin Guide on the other side of the table, I would be far less to see this thingie coming down if I hadn't a removal spell. Just dropping 2 1/1s mean that, even if I get rid of him, I will suffer 2 damage more every turn and have to deal with 2 other creatures. Take the exact shell you're playing, drop Guide for YP, add 2 Probes, you now have a tempo/burn deck with a card that alone can flood a board at the drawback of what, making the deck slightly slower? Delver Burn is already not optimized for being as fast as burn is, with the increase add of being more consistent. Well, this guy would push it back to a t1,5 status, significantly improving every fair matchup (the green decks for sure); I wouldn't shit on him at all.

If you lose steam after turn 4 then hopefully they're in burn range: Goblin Guide certainly helps achieve this. If you cut guide for this Pyromancer then you're hoping that a 2/1 and a few "little" 1/1s can make up for not having any gas in the first place. Seeing as this strategy suffers from nearly the exact same 'problem' as relying on guide, hinging on an easily chumpable dork and his chumpable dork-friends, I fail to see how it's such an improvement over the goblin when it costs a whole extra mana

If you're afraid of "running out of gas" and don't think that the burn strategy is viable then that's fine, but it's almost certainly correct to go find some Goyfs and Geese rather than stick straight UR while making your deck a worse version of canadian.

[Andrew.Schneider]

So you get rid off Goblin Guide, one of the most aggressive cards in the whole deck. Okay. Then you replace the aggressive 1-Drop with a rather slow 2-Drop. I can see the card being better in some situations, but especially against decks with Counterbalance I'd rather play the faster card. Why? A 2-Drop is more likely to get countered (since you are more likely to tap out, more lands are on board, Spell Snare), it takes away much of your own speed and gives the opponent more time to react. When you drop Pyromancer, GG has most likely already done 2 to 4 damage.
Your argument about the mage creating 3/4+ power on its own is cute, but the average a GG is beating for is nothing to sneeze at. I'd also like to ask you to explain the less likelihood to be exposed to a Terminus or Pyroclasm. Oh, and it's only a 1 for 1 if this is your only card on board, which isn't exactly threatening.

As I said, I do see some applications for him and I am definitely going to toy with the card (probably for Modern though), but please consider different aspects of the cards you are evaluating to swap instead of just "A is bad at this, B is good at that".

Every time I start to write a counter in my head you've already posted it a few posts down :smile:

This card is sweet though, and will definitely be in few standard brews of mine.

[JDK]

This card is sweet though, and will definitely be in few standard brews of mine.
First I was thinking "sweet, Talrand will like this fella!", but then I realized most cool cards are going to rotate once this one gets release. :(
Anyway, I guess I'll have to put him in a sweet RDW (or even UR with Ral Zarek) build with Ogre Battledriver and Chandra's Phoenix.

As for Legacy, I'll look into a Punishing Fire (probably greedy RUG) shell.

[syfilisx]

Heard the rumor that Nivmagus guy won the swiss portion in Porotour Legacy event last sunday.
http://porotour.com/2013/05/26/poro-tour-legacy-2013-top-10-decklists/#more-530

He won manaless ichorid 2-0 in quarters.
He continued his rampage to semifinals where he lost tight game 1-2 to Hivemind.

Swiss matchups:
TES 2-1
RUG 2-0
Merfolk 1-2
TES 2-1
UWR Miracles 2-0
BUG Delver 2-0
Oops all spells 2-1

Yeah that guy was me, end of brags. :) List and top10 lists in the link.

Cheers, Jani

[FANAttIC]

Lost in semis yesterday, 30-something people, got Taiga (my first green dual! have 12 others, never with green :)), Windswept Heath and random promo foils for my troubles.
Still can't believe how good this deck is considering its power level compared to all (except burn.dec) other legacy decks.

[SirTylerGalt]

I also think Young Pyromancer would be great in a Nivmagus build.

I'm going to brew a version with lots of cantrips (4 Ponder / 4 Brainstorm / 2-3 Gitaxian Probe) to be able to chain cantrips with Nivmagus / Pyromancer on the field.

They have started experimenting with Gitaxian Probe in the RUG Delver thread. I think probe is even better in U/R Delver Nivmagus. It's good with Nivmagus, because it lets you know if the opponent has removal, and whether you should boost Nivmagus. It also combines well with Snapcaster Mage.

You can do something like:
T1: Nivmagus
T2: Bolt
T3:
- Gitaxian Probe, see no removal / nothing relevant
- Snapcaster Mage, targeting Gitaxian Probe
- Gitaxian Probe flashbacked
- Daze it
- Flusterstorm it
- Exile 5 flusterstorm spells, Daze, and the flashbacked Gitaxian Probe
- Attack with 15/16 Nivmagus

Probe is also good with Young Pyromancer.

[lyracian]

T1: Nivmagus
T2: Bolt
T3:
- Gitaxian Probe, see no removal / nothing relevant
- Snapcaster Mage, targeting Gitaxian Probe
- Gitaxian Probe flashbacked
- Daze it
- Flusterstorm it
- Exile 5 flusterstorm spells, Daze, and the flashbacked Gitaxian Probe
- Attack with 15/16 Nivmagus
Cute but only 19 damage. If they have used a fetchland that is fine but you might have to exile the Bolt T2 and attack with a 3/4 Nivmage and then make it 17/18 on Turn 3.

[Mammutti]

Heard the rumor that Nivmagus guy won the swiss portion in Porotour Legacy event last sunday.
http://porotour.com/2013/05/26/poro-tour-legacy-2013-top-10-decklists/#more-530

He won manaless ichorid 2-0 in quarters.
He continued his rampage to semifinals where he lost tight game 1-2 to Hivemind.

Swiss matchups:
TES 2-1
RUG 2-0
Merfolk 1-2
TES 2-1
UWR Miracles 2-0
BUG Delver 2-0
Oops all spells 2-1

Yeah that guy was me, end of brags. :) List and top10 lists in the link.

Cheers, Jani

Congrats on your finish!

I've been testing a very similar Nivmagus list lately with good results. Same MD as yours except -1 Clout, -1 Clique, -1 Volcanic, +1 Ponder, +1 Daze, +1 Fetch MD. My reasoning behind these choices is to maximize the ability to blind flip Delvers, upping my instant and sorcery count to 29. Clique is amazing but with 18 lands it is sometimes struggling to reach three mana. I think Clout is very good in removal heavy match-ups but I've had plenty of games where it just sits there in my hand and does nothing. Plus it really requires your opponent to tap out before being able to play it safely. I still run two copies of Clout and one Clique in my board.

What do you think about these changes? How important have the MD Clique and Cloat been? Also Young Pyromancer seems interesting but rather slow for the deck. But I will definitely test it to see how it works. Maybe as a two-of in place of 1 Daze and Ponder... Would love to hear your opinions.

Cheers,
Lauri

[syfilisx]

What do you think about these changes? How important have the MD Clique and Cloat been? Also Young Pyromancer seems interesting but rather slow for the deck. But I will definitely test it to see how it works. Maybe as a two-of in place of 1 Daze and Ponder... Would love to hear your opinions.

Your reasoning for blindflipping delvers is pretty solid, have been thinking about that point too. I have been wanting to add fourth daze sometimes, but it gets pretty bad fast without mana denial, so I havent.

Ponders I feel like I don't need more, have been contemplating adding gitaxian probe for shenigans described earlier.
Maindeck Clique is just a test, it has been pretty good when drawn, but as a one off it comes around only when you least except it. Reasoning for having it is probably that I just wanted another threath.

Clout is just there to mise away games with third turn kill. And if you are holding clout and flusterstorm T2, you actually want them to stop the magus and get free value. Clouted Delver T2 after tapping out to remove lesser man also sometimes just steals game.

Changes are so small that they boil down to personal taste, I have played list with many different combinations of cards and cannot really tell which is best. You can find my top10 legacychamps decklist and Gpt Strasbourg finals list in this thread, you go figure what those changes mean. It's bit of meta choice, in champs I excepted chalice decks and green based decks, met few of those, now I was expecting combo, played three in swiss.

[HammafistRoob]

So I've been testing a quite different UR Delver build for about four months now and my results have been quite stellar so far. I'm posting it here to get some discussion going about a new twist on the archetype and to see if anybody has tried/wants to try this approach.

My list focuses on closing games out early(turn3 or 4). Mainly to outrace combo or opposing bombs like Jace or something. But it also has an added bonus of making taxing counters practically unfair because your opponent will be unable to play around them in the face of your pressure.

Delver Fiend
Maindeck=60

-Manabase-16
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

-Creatures-10
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kiln Fiend
2 Nivmagus Elemental

-Cantrips/Dig-15
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe

-Countersuit-8
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

-Burn Spells-11
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Dart
3 Forked Bolt

*Sideboard*
3 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
3 Price of Progress
2 Chain Lightning
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt


Kiln Fiend makes for an explosive, comboesque finish in almost every game he goes unanswered for a single turn. He's a reliable way to flat out race combo decks since we have the tools to slow them down easily. 26(excluding FoW and Daze)cards in the deck pump him for either one or zero mana.

This deck has a fair matchup against pretty much every archetype. There are no autowin or autolose matches as far as I can tell. The sideboard is sort of thrown together with the DTBs in mind. The extra burn comes in against decks packing insane amounts of removal or decks with horrid clocks that you can simply race with burn to the dome. The extra counters come in against combo or to prevent Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, or 3sphere(in that order) from resolving.

This deck is a blast to play.

[Angelteg]

Recently switched over from the Shocks to the Chain Lightnings and love the results. You guys were right

Also went from 2 Daze and 2 spell pierce to 3 daze and 1 spell pierce and absolutely love, love, love the results

Even experimented a little with Nivmagus and hated it. I always found my spells were more importantly for altering the board state in my favor than to give Niv some counters. Sure I exiled the occasional ponder and daze, but it just wasn't as effective as I hoped.

I may experiment with Kiln Fiend. I like the potential. Although if I do, I may add a Chain Lightning, since with no evasion, I'll want to kill creatures in his way AND pump him.

Really just wanted thoughts on Daze vs. Spell Pierce, been drinking a little and rambled

[beez]

Here is a list I have that is maindecked for the 'fair' decks and can move into pure combo mode against other combo decks or decks that would be very vulnerable to a nivmagus combo.

And in the main Delver-focused mode, an early dropped Delver with Hexproof or a hasted Lavamancer in a key situation isnt bad.

NivMagus Delver

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x NivMagus Elemental

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Daze
4x Flusterstorm
2x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

1x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Clout of the Dominus

4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Volcanic Island
2x Island
2x Mountain
2x Sulfer Falls

Side
2x Spell Pierce
2x Clout of the Dominus
3x Gut shot
4x Gitixian Probe
4x Surgical Extraction

[beez]

Maindecking a focus on NivMagus combo I think is done best with a splash of black for Snuff Out and Death's Shadow. Perhaps there should be a seperate thread for that deck.

[kombatkiwi]

Died in the quarterfinals of a small local event today, playing Andrew's exact 75 from the invitational

Round 1 URW Delver
After some tight games 1 and 2 he misplays in 3 by tapping out too much mana for a Geist after I use pyroblast to kill his delver. He dies to price of progress

Round 2 Jund
Game 1 I misplay by burning his liliana out to keep any future threats alive when he has active Grove+Fire and I have no cards in hand, but I topdeck Price like a man to deal him 8 (he's on 7)
Game 2 PoP again for 6 and snap it back I'm pretty sure Jund cannot beat that card

Round 3 RUG Delver
Fairly close game 1 but off his mull to 5 he was never really in it.
He sat next to me in a previous round and he had the board-into-SNT-omniscience-emrakul plan assuming that all his opponents will board their FoWs out. However, he knows that I know this so I just hedge by boarding out 3 FoWs for 2 pyroblasts and the pierce. I pierce his first SnT, mise my 1-of FoW for the second one and snap-pierce the third one. After playing tightly and about to untap for the carefully planned lethal I just topdeck price and shoot him for 10, card is OP.

Round 4 BUG Delver ID

Round 5 Don't even know lol ID

2nd after swiss, 1st place is my friend playing BUG from round 4

Quarterfinals Tinfins
It's only a 19 man event or thereabouts, I could have spent 10 seconds to find out what my opponent is playing but my game 1 keep of Goblin Guide, Brainstorm Bolt, Lands is not sufficient against Tinfins and I'm effectively dead when he plays Griselbrand on turn 1.
Game 2 I am able to board into a configuration with 3 Surgicals 4 Fows 4 Spell Pierce 2 Pyroblast and 2 Daze but he draws enough discard to get rid of double pierce and double surgical. My leftover cards are like Delver and Lavamancer while his are Shallow Grave and Entomb so my event is over.
I realised you should board in Sulfuric Vortex in this MU too because turning Griselbrand's Lifelink off is extremely relevant and it will deal more damage over the course of the game than Lavamancer (for example) which has no creatures to target anyway.

I think the list is really good, I used every SB card except smelt. I don't think I would change anything for the next event that I played in.

Let me know if you have any specific questions

[JDK]

PoP is strong, but your RUG opponent must have been a bad player to play so much lands with his deck and against UR...

[kombatkiwi]

PoP is strong, but your RUG opponent must have been a bad player to play so much lands with his deck and against UR...

He's not a bad player, he's topped a few nationals etc: Once he's committed to the Show and Tell plan he has no other option because he has to try and play around spell pierce/daze.

Another small event yesterday
Nic Fit 2-1
Deathblade 2-1
Elves 2-0
Jund 2-0

Top 4 Nic Fit 1-2

Annoyingly the Nic Fit player who I beat in round 1 is the same one who knocked me out in top 4 AND it's also the person who beat me with Tinfins the day before. I'm still not that sad about it because with the store credit from this event and the random foil draw from the day before I basically break even on entry fees and it's the first time I have played in events with UR after owning the deck for about a week.

How do you guys board against Nic Fit and Elves?

[syfilisx]

Kombatkiwi, Do we have your list somewhere so we know the side?

I usually board some amount of submerges if I play them and Grafdiggers Cage/Surgical Extraction depending on versions Nic Fit or Elves is playing. I feel like that I don't need so much against elves, since I already have 3 Lavamancers and lots of burn.

Nic Fit I don't see a lot in our meta now, but I usually just am faster deck if opening hands are anywhere decent.

[kombatkiwi]

Kombatkiwi, Do we have your list somewhere so we know the side?

I usually board some amount of submerges if I play them and Grafdiggers Cage/Surgical Extraction depending on versions Nic Fit or Elves is playing. I feel like that I don't need so much against elves, since I already have 3 Lavamancers and lots of burn.

Nic Fit I don't see a lot in our meta now, but I usually just am faster deck if opening hands are anywhere decent.

I had
3 Extractions
1 PoP
1 Pierce
4 Lava Spike
2 Pyroblast
2 Smelt
2 Sulfuric Vortex

Against Nic Fit I just boarded out the 2 maindeck PoP for 2 Sulfuric Vortex
It might have been correct to put the Lava Spikes in for some combination of FoW and Spell Pierce

Against Elves I didn't board anything

[syfilisx]

Yeah. Probably no cards that would be better than what you have in 60 against Elves.
I have a feeling, that depending bit of which version of Nic fit is played, that you daze/fow explorer and kill them before they get the deck rolling. They can have serious problems starting up if they don't get their daily dose of ramping.

[JDK]

@kombatwiki
If he's not bad, why does he board into a bad version of SnT, when he has a pretty decent MU? FoW is no argument, since you board in better Blasts...

[blindspotxxx]

Glad someone still uses the deck :)

After playing the other decks I can't seem to go back to U/R Delver lol

Red needs a power up in Legacy.. Badly!

[Mythic Games]

To my fellow U/R Delver players. I feel very strongly about playing "smash to smithereens" instead of "smelt".
S2S can get you out from under chalice on 1 and also maintains the tempo that this deck needs.

[kombatkiwi]

To my fellow U/R Delver players. I feel very strongly about playing "smash to smithereens" instead of "smelt".
S2S can get you out from under chalice on 1 and also maintains the tempo that this deck needs.

In terms of maintaining tempo I feel that Smelt is significantly better in this regard, the 1 mana makes too much of a difference, especially with Snapcaster.
If you expect a lot of chalice of the void in your metagame then I could understand playing Smash to Smithereens, I don't think the difference is really all that significant anyway

[kombatkiwi]

@kombatwiki
If he's not bad, why does he board into a bad version of SnT, when he has a pretty decent MU? FoW is no argument, since you board in better Blasts...

I don't know. In general I think he's a better player than I am. Maybe it's just an idea he wanted to try or something

[JDK]

To my fellow U/R Delver players. I feel very strongly about playing "smash to smithereens" instead of "smelt".
S2S can get you out from under chalice on 1 and also maintains the tempo that this deck needs.

Search this thread. This discussion has come up several times already.

[Andrew.Schneider]

To my fellow U/R Delver players. I feel very strongly about playing "smash to smithereens" instead of "smelt".
S2S can get you out from under chalice on 1 and also maintains the tempo that this deck needs.

Smash to Smithereens is obviously the better card, but that doesn't mean it is the right choice. If you have to play against Chalice of the Void on a regular basis then playing Smelt would be pretty dumb and you should definitely play Smash to Smithereens. In fact, the reason I started playing Smelt in the first place was to beat the Spell Pierces out of Stoneblade, but now that none of the lists are playing Spell Pierce (at least the deathblade decks aren't) it might be correct to go back. I'm not sure though, I really like the 1 mana for Snapcaster.

[kombatkiwi]

The only time I cast smelt in the 2 events it got Negated (like, the actual card Negate) so I don't exactly have the most useful sample size

[Heresy]

This is the list with which I'm trying to incorporate Young Pyromancer. The approach is to max out on ''free'' spells as much as possible and to reduce the number of ''dead'' cards g1. This is why 3-4 Price of Progress and 1-2 Grim Lavamancer would be mandatory in the sideboard. The 2 Vapor Snag could become a Spell Pierce and a Gitaxian Probe. What do you guys think?

4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
3 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa

[Richard Cheese]

Smash to Smithereens is obviously the better card, but that doesn't mean it is the right choice. If you have to play against Chalice of the Void on a regular basis then playing Smelt would be pretty dumb and you should definitely play Smash to Smithereens. In fact, the reason I started playing Smelt in the first place was to beat the Spell Pierces out of Stoneblade, but now that none of the lists are playing Spell Pierce (at least the deathblade decks aren't) it might be correct to go back. I'm not sure though, I really like the 1 mana for Snapcaster.

If you're running into a lot of Chalice decks, isn't Shattering Spree really where you want to be? Getting to :r::r: or even :r::r::r: shouldn't be that difficult with this deck.

[blindspotxxx]

Shattering Spree is a sorcery, I'd rather have Smash that deals 3 damage as well.

[Andrew.Schneider]

If you're running into a lot of Chalice decks, isn't Shattering Spree really where you want to be? Getting to :r::r: or even :r::r::r: shouldn't be that difficult with this deck.

The card is reasonable, but you need to have the instant speed for the stoneblade matchup.

[syfilisx]

I run 2 Smash to Smithereens & 1 Shattering Spree because of abnormally great number of Affinity & Chalice decks in local metagames, also Nivmagus elemental is even more 1 drop filled than normal list, though spree also has nice synergy with Nivmagus.
But Schneider is absolutely right that instant speed is where you wanna be against Stoneblade, especially if mystic lives.

[FANAttIC]

Played legacy tournament yesterday.
Etched Champion is such a pain. How do you deal with that?
I have 3 Smash to S. in side and they are good against the rest but against affinity I am control and he just keep coming.
I was thinking of Jitte but, if Champion is on defense, the Jitte will never get counters (unless I have flipped Delver).
The best card for me was Price of Progress but Ravager can nullify that plan.

[Heresy]

Possible SB material? Not sure if it does anything better than Sulfuric Vortex but at least we're on the right track.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/m14/poi798sjkasd/eHKYT4nmVe_EN.jpg

[FANAttIC]

Mindsparker is pure trash for legacy. Maybe some other format.

[JMLL]

Played legacy tournament yesterday.
Etched Champion is such a pain. How do you deal with that?
I have 3 Smash to S. in side and they are good against the rest but against affinity I am control and he just keep coming.
I was thinking of Jitte but, if Champion is on defense, the Jitte will never get counters (unless I have flipped Delver).
The best card for me was Price of Progress but Ravager can nullify that plan.

In a meta with Chalice and Trinisphere, and with occasional Affinities, I used to play Meltdown. With X=2 (cmc3) all the affinity lands are destroyed + all the small dudes + equipement + acceleration. Then, you will probably be able to kill the 2/2 with any removal

[beez]

I'm tired of Goblin Guide. Even with the white splash you still have to clear the way for your ghast. I don't want to worry about foe's creatures at all, really. At least Goblin Baloon Brigade or Cloud of Faries has evasion, LOL. I'm not sure NivMagus card disadvantage is worth it either. I think the new Young Pyromancer might be too slow also, as is Guttersnipe and Talrand. But I'm not satisfied with that GG slot at all and see few good replacements .

The new vid on SCG shows UR getting it's ass handed to it by DnT, exposing many of the decks problems, though GG isn't as horrible there as it is againat green decks, though GG helps him get his Ports online earlier.

[Bichon_Blitz]

I'm tired of Goblin Guide. Even with the white splash you still have to clear the way for your ghast. I don't want to worry about foe's creatures at all, really. At least Goblin Baloon Brigade or Cloud of Faries has evasion, LOL. I'm not sure NivMagus card disadvantage is worth it either. I think the new Young Pyromancer might be too slow also, as is Guttersnipe and Talrand. But I'm not satisfied with that GG slot at all and see few good replacements .

The new vid on SCG shows UR getting it's ass handed to it by DnT, exposing many of the decks problems, though GG isn't as horrible there as it is againat green decks, though GG helps him get his Ports online earlier.

As someone new to this deck, that vid made me wonder if I made the right choice. It seems like the DnT deck has way better draws against us and if we don't get early pressure (t1 or t2) then it's prob a loss. I thought the whole point of guide was to get 4-6 damage through early then let your burn/delver/lavamancer get you there. I really want this deck to be good, but, damn, I do not want to get my ass handed to me match in, match out like that vid.

[HammafistRoob]

You can't win every matchup. Be a man and board Sulfur Elemental if you expect plenty of white dorks. (Creatures, not the players)

[blindspotxxx]

Can you link the video? :)

[JDK]

Geez kids, that's where sideboards and metagaming comes in.

[beez]

You can't win every matchup. Be a man and board Sulfur Elemental if you expect plenty of white dorks. (Creatures, not the players)

If the later were the case I would have 4 Sulfur Elementals in every MTG deck I ever took to a tourny ;)

It is true the guy had no Sulfur Elementals in his board and was perhaps over enamoured with PoP to run 4 of them in 75.

[beez]

Can you link the video? :)

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26460_Gindy-vs-McDarby-White-Weenie-vs-UR-Delver.html

[Andrew.Schneider]

The new vid on SCG shows UR getting it's ass handed to it by DnT, exposing many of the decks problems, though GG isn't as horrible there as it is againat green decks, though GG helps him get his Ports online earlier.

DnT isn't a very good matchup. So have a plan: board for it or try to dodge, both are fine choices. My plan is to dodge and if that fails, get lucky. Legacy is deep, you can win almost any matchup if you think hard enough.
And by get his Ports online earlier you mean make your Prices castable right?

[blindspotxxx]

From my experience it is winnable but they are favored. Sometimes burn to the dome and race them will get there. Playing the long game will be rough

[sherko7]

So I'm buying into this deck after selling most of my Jund duals. I'm just lacking the Volcanic Islands and SCMs. I'm tired of just dying to combo lol, and I'm planning to build American Delver in the future so this seems to be a good deck to start.

Anyway, can anyone give a rough breakdown of the deck's matchups? I'm sure it has been discussed somewhere, but I guess with new tech and all everywhere maybe a refresher course would help :D

[Heresy]

Anyway, can anyone give a rough breakdown of the deck's matchups?

Here's some useful articles written by Andrew Schneider :

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25091_A-Guide-To-U-R-Delver-In-Legacy.html

http://roxiecards.com/sideboarding-in-legacy-with-ur-delver/

[blindspotxxx]

So I'm buying into this deck after selling most of my Jund duals. I'm just lacking the Volcanic Islands and SCMs. I'm tired of just dying to combo lol, and I'm planning to build American Delver in the future so this seems to be a good deck to start.

Anyway, can anyone give a rough breakdown of the deck's matchups? I'm sure it has been discussed somewhere, but I guess with new tech and all everywhere maybe a refresher course would help :D

This deck ain't really the deck to beat combo unless you jam your sideboard with it. TES and Sneak Show are truly rough games. Hive mind and the other 3 card combos are easier but still you need to set up your sideboard. Flusterstorm is a must now :)

[ivanpei]

I've been playing with 4 young pyromancers in this deck and it has been ridiculous so far. It is hands down the best card in this deck, it's even better than delver. I've cut Snapcaster because 3cc is quite high for this deck as I want to be able to operate off 2 lands.

Here's the list:

4 Delver
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
4 Chain
2 Dismember
1 Fireblast

10 fetch
4 Volcanic
4 Wasteland

[blindspotxxx]

Why play dismember over price? And the wastelands main deck? Right now i'd have to say price of progress is the best card in the deck. But i can see what your plan is, it's out tempo them while beating with 1/1s. I still believe some number of snapcasters are still great. What match ups are you crushing so far? God i'm now tempted to use this deck on our weekly legacy to try it out. So we finally have our red confidant? Uncommon ftw

[FANAttIC]

Yeah, somehow with all those spells, Snapcasters are the weakest links and I am also planning to include YP-s in deck, but with more velocity spells (Gitaxian Probe, Thoughtscour) that also clear Brainstorm lock and put stuff in the grave for Mancer. Unfortunately I am not good deckbuilder and GP Rimini is too close to have optimal decklist. Probably another go for trusty merfolk at sideevents when I fail to day2.

[blindspotxxx]

I've been playing with 4 young pyromancers in this deck and it has been ridiculous so far. It is hands down the best card in this deck, it's even better than delver. I've cut Snapcaster because 3cc is quite high for this deck as I want to be able to operate off 2 lands.

Here's the list:

4 Delver
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
4 Chain
2 Dismember
1 Fireblast

10 fetch
4 Volcanic
4 Wasteland

I've been testing your list and it has been great I've beaten a lot of the decks to beat. I just dislike the manabase as basic lands are one of U/R Delver's strengths. What sideboard did you prepare? I'm a little lost with it lol I also removed the Fireblast for a Spell Pierce.

[beez]

I've been testing your list and it has been great I've beaten a lot of the decks to beat. I just dislike the manabase as basic lands are one of U/R Delver's strengths. What sideboard did you prepare? I'm a little lost with it lol I also removed the Fireblast for a Spell Pierce.

Even if it was said the Snapcaster was the weakest link in testing, if you are already running the Wastelands and no Price, why not just add Stifles and Snapcasters and do away with Goblin Guide?

[blindspotxxx]

Even if it was said the Snapcaster was the weakest link in testing, if you are already running the Wastelands and no Price, why not just add Stifles and Snapcasters and do away with Goblin Guide?

So far what happens is you kill them before they can stabilize because of Guide and a lot of 1/1s but yeah that could also work. If we go for that framework why not just go Patriot Delver with Pyromancers I think that would be stronger

[Kich867]

This deck ain't really the deck to beat combo unless you jam your sideboard with it. TES and Sneak Show are truly rough games. Hive mind and the other 3 card combos are easier but still you need to set up your sideboard. Flusterstorm is a must now :)

I mean I'd imagine Flusterstorm should have been there from the start, but from my experience this deck is one of the better decks in general against almost any combo deck. Ultra fast clocks with counter backup and burn reach, RUG doesn't even have quite so good a matchup against combo as this deck does. In fact I'd say more often this deck's worst enemy is itself. When I was playing it (cards aren't much different than they are today), I would often need just a few more points of damage and rip a brainstorm, brainstorm into fetch, fetch, daze, and lose. But when it draws well and you find the right balance of burns and counters and creatures, it's silly how strong it is.

[ivanpei]

I tried price of progress instead of Dismember at first. It was... so-so. In some. Mus, it's a total blowout. While those with stable mana bases can handle price. Also since the deck involves alot of 1/1s you really need alot of removal to keep the board clear. Even a puny 2/2 gaddock teeq or a 1/2 deathrite can stop the 1/1 token beats. You literally have to clear every single blocker. I've also change up the list slightly. I cut 3 chains for 3 Forked bolt. The 1 Fireblast is flex and I'm testing the 3rd Dismember in the slot. Thsi decks primary weakness is big dudes. A goyf/kotr can block tokens and goblin guide. Dismember is just insurance. Forked bolt is great for occasional 2 for 1s. Also I like that you can ping a 1 toughness due for 1 and the opponent for 1 as well. Generally forked bolt is more useful by a slim margin.

As for the manabase, it's OK for me. Lots of fetches are good for Grim and you really can't afford. Basics unfortunately. The whole deck can operate off a Volc and a wasteland so I like that. This deck is blazing fast and young pyromancer is so much better than goyf in this sort of deck. It's abit like Stoneforge, if you get the turn back, you've won more or less.

So far, it's been good against most of the DTBs. I'm even positive against GW Maverick which surprised even myself. Young pyromancer is such a house.

[JDK]

I never thought of Maverick as a bad matchup, so why is that surprising?

[blindspotxxx]

Good Maverick player is a rough match up.

@Ivanpei

what does your sideboard look like? I'd assume you're going with Submerges as compared to more burn right?

[beez]

So far what happens is you kill them before they can stabilize because of Guide and a lot of 1/1s but yeah that could also work. If we go for that framework why not just go Patriot Delver with Pyromancers I think that would be stronger

I like the idea of keeping it to just two colors and not being so greedy with the manabase or necessarily having to use swords to clear the board but rather just swarm past them. If they are leaving a goyf back to block your one ones then you have already won. Forked bolts to clear the blocking and advantage of bobs and DRS.

[Richard Cheese]

I tried price of progress instead of Dismember at first. It was... so-so. In some. Mus, it's a total blowout. While those with stable mana bases can handle price. Also since the deck involves alot of 1/1s you really need alot of removal to keep the board clear. Even a puny 2/2 gaddock teeq or a 1/2 deathrite can stop the 1/1 token beats. You literally have to clear every single blocker. I've also change up the list slightly. I cut 3 chains for 3 Forked bolt. The 1 Fireblast is flex and I'm testing the 3rd Dismember in the slot. Thsi decks primary weakness is big dudes. A goyf/kotr can block tokens and goblin guide. Dismember is just insurance. Forked bolt is great for occasional 2 for 1s. Also I like that you can ping a 1 toughness due for 1 and the opponent for 1 as well. Generally forked bolt is more useful by a slim margin.

As for the manabase, it's OK for me. Lots of fetches are good for Grim and you really can't afford. Basics unfortunately. The whole deck can operate off a Volc and a wasteland so I like that. This deck is blazing fast and young pyromancer is so much better than goyf in this sort of deck. It's abit like Stoneforge, if you get the turn back, you've won more or less.

So far, it's been good against most of the DTBs. I'm even positive against GW Maverick which surprised even myself. Young pyromancer is such a house.

Maybe this is insane, but if big dudes are the problem, have you looked at Flash of Defiance? The only thing this doesn't really deal with is Batterskull, but outside of that it seems pretty hard to beat in terms of pure value. Mom, spirit tokens, Goyfs, Knights, Mongeese, DRS, all of the Elves, so on. Seems at least worth testing in the board.

[ivanpei]

Flash of defiance seems interesting though a bit narrow.

My current board is:
4 Submerge
1 Jitte
3 Spell Pierce
3 Reb
2 Grafdiggers
2 Price of Progress

There's combo hate and alot of fat creatures hate in the board. Price of progress is still insane, so it is left in the board.

[karaxu]

In an attempt to bring some life back to this thread...

I've been thinking on how to use Young Pyromancer and I think he belongs in a tempo shell like RUG delver.
Putting it in place of Tarmogoyf, I made the decision to cut green completely.

(pardon the non-tagged list, too lazy... :D)

Maindeck:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Dismember
4 Stifle

4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa

As you can see it is RUG delver's shell, minus the goyfs and mongeese... critic please. :)

[blindspotxxx]

Until someone can use Young Pyromancer to a great finish then it's hard to tell. Some brave soul should join a major tournament and beat it :tongue:

[Angelteg]

In an attempt to bring some life back to this thread...

I've been thinking on how to use Young Pyromancer and I think he belongs in a tempo shell like RUG delver.
Putting it in place of Tarmogoyf, I made the decision to cut green completely.

(pardon the non-tagged list, too lazy... :D)

Maindeck:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Dismember
4 Stifle

4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa

As you can see it is RUG delver's shell, minus the goyfs and mongeese... critic please. :)

I am glad you posted this, and I would love to hear about some tests. I haven't gotten to do any testing lately, but my constant struggle seems to be whether to go more tempo like RUG or to keep it more aggro/burn.

I do think that one of the strengths of U/R has been its ability to play non-basics and go straight burn to the dome when appropriate. So playing U/R without 3 chain lightning and at least 2 price of progress seems a bit weird.

I feel like going RUG and then swapping in Pyromancers for 'Goyf's just makes it a weaker version of RUG.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Until someone can use Young Pyromancer to a great finish then it's hard to tell. Some brave soul should join a major tournament and beat it :tongue:

Yeah, this.

I've been playing with the stock list, it's done very right by me. Cutting snap for a young pyro is not ideal for what this deck wants to do, get creature damage early, win with burn late. snap can win games out of nowhere. At turn two, you can cast a young pyromancer, or you can cast a 2nd delver/guide/lavamancer or whatever 1drops (burn removal, cantrip) we play. I haven't tested the pyromancer, and i feel no reason to because the original does just fine. As far as not playing price of progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_Ja02gTY


Really? Seriously? PoP wins games out right. Those games that you have no business winning. Late game (which is what we don't want) PoP end of turn. Untap, snap, recast PoP. That's A LOT of damage against a lot of the best decks right now with greedy mana bases. I feel pretty strongly about list that don't include this card. You're nuts.

[karaxu]

I understand that UR delver is primarily a burn deck and am very aware of the goodness of PoP, especially in the current metagame where greedy manabases are used by DeathBlade and Shardless BUG.

But the list I posted was more of making Young Pyromancer work in blue red colors. I just feel that he does not belong with Goblin guide (or in a Burn Shell for that matter) as he is slow.

Regarding the 'stock list', I agree on it being the faster list and I would even up the PoP count to 3 maindeck.

[Piceli89]

Until someone can use Young Pyromancer to a great finish then it's hard to tell. Some brave soul should join a major tournament and beat it :tongue:


Gianluca Gazzola, 6th out of 59, tournament in Verona (Italy) in July

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blood Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental

[Bichon_Blitz]

I understand that UR delver is primarily a burn deck and am very aware of the goodness of PoP, especially in the current metagame where greedy manabases are used by DeathBlade and Shardless BUG.

But the list I posted was more of making Young Pyromancer work in blue red colors. I just feel that he does not belong with Goblin guide (or in a Burn Shell for that matter) as he is slow.

Regarding the 'stock list', I agree on it being the faster list and I would even up the PoP count to 3 maindeck.

I agree with everything here. If you are gonna cut anything for young pyro, guide is probably the most ideal. If young peezy spewed out tokens with haste/flying, he would definitely be sweet, but he doesn't. For me, if this deck is going to cut a 1 drop for a 2 drop, that drop has to a) win you the game or b) put you in a position to win a turn or two from now. The fair decks all have some form of removal one way or the other. He will see most of them. Young Peezy is not a bad card in itself, it's actually brilliant. I'm just not sure that he earns a spot here.

As far as price, I've been playing 3 main deck forever and love it. I find it really hard to cut entirely out of any deck that has any kind of burn plan, when late game burn>critters. People will play around it, fetching basics, often making their lines of play more difficult as well.

[blindspotxxx]

Wow that's a nice finish haha Maybe I'll test a similar list.

[karaxu]

Good finish! That list just proved that Young Pyromancer belongs in a tempo build and not in a burn shell.

That list was also basically a RUG delver's shell. :laugh: Although I would probably play the full set of Stifle

[JDK]

Seriously, if you are taking the RUG shell an cut green you are doing it wrong. The deck just becomes a worse version of RUG. You get worse beaters and lose the benefit of an incredible reach. Take this list with caution.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Seriously, if you are taking the RUG shell an cut green you are doing it wrong. The deck just becomes a worse version of RUG. You get worse beaters and lose the benefit of an incredible reach. Take this list with caution.

+1. This deck wants to win a lot quicker than RUG.

[Heresy]

This is the latest list that I'm testing so far :

2 Volcanic Island
3 Mountain
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard
1 Price of Progress
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Submerge

Lots of basics and featuring a burn shell. These choices are made with Young Pyromancer in mind : I consider him a three drop, so a sturdy manabase is preferred if you constantly want U/R open on t3. About the burn shell, it's because I tend to slow play my burn/cantrips, compared to a tempo shell, where you're more often in topdeck mode with no gas in hand and a Young Pyromancer in play. With my playstyle, this is the best way to exploit Young Pyromancer, in my opinion. I'm thinking of maybe one more Snapcaster Mage for a Daze or something else, can't decide what. Price of Progress is nuts and the 2 Submerge could become Dismembers... Any suggestions?

EDIT : I'm Heresy (The Source) on MWS, if anybody wants to test things out.

[beez]

I agree with everything here. If you are gonna cut anything for young pyro, guide is probably the most ideal. If young peezy spewed out tokens with haste/flying, he would definitely be sweet, but he doesn't. For me, if this deck is going to cut a 1 drop for a 2 drop, that drop has to a) win you the game or b) put you in a position to win a turn or two from now. The fair decks all have some form of removal one way or the other. He will see most of them. Young Peezy is not a bad card in itself, it's actually brilliant. I'm just not sure that he earns a spot here.

As far as price, I've been playing 3 main deck forever and love it. I find it really hard to cut entirely out of any deck that has any kind of burn plan, when late game burn>critters. People will play around it, fetching basics, often making their lines of play more difficult as well.

Yeah, Haste would have made all the difference in the world for Young Peezy. Would have been fine to make him Rare and finally red's legacy two drop like Goyf, Bob, SfM for their respective colors. Now he is justa reasonably mana costed version of the disappointing Talrand and Guttersnipes. But in some cases the arguement could still be made for running him over Guide.

[KevinSrednoselac]

young pyromancer makes this deck way too slow, yes a tarmogoyf chump blocker is good, but there's really no point in casting a pyromancer if you cant protect it, and if you cant cast something the same turn he is out. I just recently took first at a local tournament with U/R delver, and young pyromancer was not in the list. Theres just way too many things to hurt it, (forked bolt, umezawas jitte, abrupt decay)

I think young pyromancer is realllllllly good, but not for U/r delver, in all honesty it slows the deck down, i generally would like to win by turns 3-6.

[SovietOlga]

Check out this list that came 3/4 with 59 players. It's quite the interesting list. Let's discuss young pyromancer, nivmagus elemental and flusterstorm in here. It's odd that there is a lack of stifle, but he seemed to place well...thoughts?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5352&d=230869

[Cynic13th]

Check out this list that came 3/4 with 59 players. It's quite the interesting list. Let's discuss young pyromancer, nivmagus elemental and flusterstorm in here. It's odd that there is a lack of stifle, but he seemed to place well...thoughts?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5352&d=230869

I'm just getting back into magic again after a long absence, but wouldn't Young Pyro and Niv Elemental not work well together at all. It seems like you would run just one of them... and young pyro with snapcasters is much better than with Niv Elementals. Or I'm mis understanding the rules.

[beez]

I'm just getting back into magic again after a long absence, but wouldn't Young Pyro and Niv Elemental not work well together at all. It seems like you would run just one of them... and young pyro with snapcasters is much better than with Niv Elementals. Or I'm mis understanding the rules.

I think you misunderstand. I' ve been testing and NivMagus and Young Pyromancer work Amazingly well together. Especally with 'free' spells. It can produce a lot of tokens and counters and really explode quickly, which is what you look for in UR.

The list is strong. I would rather Snapcaster in this build than Lavamancer, with the Phyrexian spells, and would actually (for this type of build only) replace the chain lightning with Gut Shot, and place a couple of Ground Rift in the sideboard.

Clout of the Dominus should be considered in the board also against STP and Abrupt Decay decks, as it is fantastic on both NivMagus and Delver, both pumping them and making them hexproof.

I like it and am glad he did well with it. Don't know if it can challemge the standard list, but it is certainly a good and valid approach.

[JDK]

Check out this list that came 3/4 with 59 players. It's quite the interesting list. Let's discuss young pyromancer, nivmagus elemental and flusterstorm in here. It's odd that there is a lack of stifle, but he seemed to place well...thoughts?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5352&d=230869

I just went 4-0 with this list (-1 Grim Lavamancer, +1 Fire // Ice) in our small local tournament and I've been pretty impressed, although I'd like to play more burn and counters (Snapcaster, I miss you). Still not sure about Nivmagus, as I've only cast one in eleven games. Matchups were Shardless BUG 2-1, MUD (featuring turn 1 Chalice in every game followed by Thorn or Lodestone Golem) 2-1, Manaless Dredge 2-1 and 4c-Cascade 2-0.
Pyromancer was a beast in all of the matchups, so I will continue testing this shell.

[beez]

I just went 4-0 with this list (-1 Grim Lavamancer, +1 Fire // Ice) in our small local tournament and I've been pretty impressed, although I'd like to play more burn and counters (Snapcaster, I miss you). Still not sure about Nivmagus, as I've only cast one in eleven games. Matchups were Shardless BUG 2-1, MUD (featuring turn 1 Chalice in every game followed by Thorn or Lodestone Golem) 2-1, Manaless Dredge 2-1 and 4c-Cascade 2-0.
Pyromancer was a beast in all of the matchups, so I will continue testing this shell.

Yeah, NivMagus would have to prove himself to earn a spot over Snapcaster, but the list with the Probes and Flusterstorms is made for NivMagus.

[JDK]

As I said, I'll have to do some more testing, as Nivmagus tried to dodge my hand today.

[beez]

As I said, I'll have to do some more testing, as Nivmagus tried to dodge my hand today.

I find with the NivMagus he is best in a super-aggro list, as you are essentially giving yourself card disadvantage for the benefit of a few +2/+2 tokens, so you would need to win with speed like the Modern NivMagus deck, where he is brutal. In this legacy build it seems like you just hope to use him to eat some dead cards in the hand, or pay some life for quick tokens off of a Probe or Gut Shot or get lucky with a well-timed Flusterstorm while he is out. In this case without as many Phyrexian spells or one-turn combo-like kills, you may hope to give him two such tokens or so a game which would put him at 5/6 pretty quick, which isn't bad for Goyf battling and certainly a higher ceiling than Guide. Is it enough to build a deck around him over the standard Guide/Snapcaster version? I guess you'll have to resolve some NivMagus in your list and let us know. He does have some advantages over the easily chumpable and cardgiving Guide which are worth exploring.

[JDK]

There is no Nivmagus deck in Modern. At least not a decent one. I know GerryT has been tinkering around some time ago, but the deck just isn't good.

Anyway, Nivmagus isn't a super aggressive substitute for Goblin Guide, it's UR's Goyf, which profits from dead & countered cards. "Timing" Flusterstorm, Daze, Probe etc to grow the elementals isn't exactly rocket science.

[diego1985]

hi, am I trying this list but am I undecided on some points
_ the counterboard is ok?
_ pyro or goblin or nivemagus?

thanks guys!

// Deck: UR Delver (60)

// Lands
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

// Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
3 Fire // Ice (Fire)
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce

// Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

[fogxanic]

I have my own version of this deck. See mox diamonds for T1 young pyro or double delver/guide :wink: Not yet sure if this is good.

UR Young Pyro:

Creatures: 13

4x Delver
3x Guide
2x Grim
4x Young

Spells: 28

4x Brainstorm
4x Chain Lightning
3x Daze
3x FOW
3x Gitaxian probe
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ponder
2x Price of Progress
1x Thunderous Wrath

Lands: 19

2x Arid Mesa
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Mountain
2x Mox Diamond
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island

[mythicjohnjohn]

Hey,

First time posting on the Source, and I would like to share this build.

So far, I have been testing this build on Cockatrice, focusing on Nivmagus(aka Sparkle Jackson) and Young Pyromancer(aka young peezy)
Seriously, all these guys need custom rapper art.

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Young Pyromancer


Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
2 Daze
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
3 Price of Progress


Enchantments
2 Clout of the Dominus

Lands
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island



Sideboard (15 cards)
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Dismember
2 Sudden shock
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte

61 cards mb, and it works mostly fine, thank you.

Matchups I have noted:
Maverick: 50/50
Omnitell:55/60
Storm 60/65
Canadian:55
Jund:40/60
UWR delver: 30/70
dnt:50/50

The gameplan, as it usually plays out, is to gauge an opponent's capabilities and lower his hand size(very important) with pressure plays like DJ delver and Mr. grim. By building up a sparkle jackson with clout or spamming spells with Young peezy, I close out with shorud and superior numbers.

Mishra's factory is the real oddball choice here, and I have them out of preference as well as utility. Not only are they invaluable blockers, they give me outs against Jace and increases the beater count to 19, something I have found in testing to be favorable to the 14-15 beaters in traditional builds. I tend to find Goblin guide to be more help to my opponent than to my clock, which is why I have excluded it in testing.

If I have to talk about the issues with this deck, the foremost problem seems to be speed. Granted, this list was built with inevitability in mind, but most of the time, rather than winning quickly I end up playing 30 minute rounds trying to grind out the other deck. Suprisingly, I have not had many problems with dtbs like Omnitell, storm or Canadian Threshold. However, what really gets me is any deck that plays a MILLION pieces of removal. Jund proved tough when I can't draw into POP, as did WUR delver. In particular, Geist of Saint Traft seems like an automatic beating against this deck, and so far, I have not had any real answers to a omglotsofremoval+geist.

I would love to hear any feedback on this build, and certainly any advice concerning getting rid of Geist.

Happy back to school.

[lambert101]

been brewing with young pyromancer...saw this list on another forum and wanted more thoughts on the following list

Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

Lands (18)
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Price of Progress
2 Smash to Smithereens

[JDK]

If you want to discuss things, you shouldn't slam in some lists you've seen. ;)

[ivanpei]

In my opinion alot of these lists are in the middle of nowhere ie. not quite aggro enough or not quite midrange enough. There was a theoretical list on SCG that runs 4 Stifle, 4 Snapcaster instead of extra burn and Goblin Guide. This obviously loses Goblin Guides explosiveness and reach + removal for blockers in exchange for more midrange power and ability to screw manabases.

My honest opinion is that the Tap out version is better because I hate stifle in a deck without spell pierce and or spell snare. If you have stifle in hand and keep mana open, they might not play a fetch which kills you on tempo. You can't wait around for them to play a fetch, this deck needs to be aggressive. I prefer running 4 Guides and More burn to be max aggressive.

[Sasan]

Hey as you know, I only play bUrg. I wanted to abuse Young Pyromancer there, but it was not the right shell. I experimented with the following list, that is a hybrid of RUG and UR Delver. As I will not test the deck anymore I wanted to share the list with you. Perhaps someone can make a good use of the list. It should be really good in the current meta game - not as strong as Canadian or bUrg but perhaps better than the stock UR list.


Deck: Sasans RUG Burn.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Taiga
3 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Submerge



It is basically a far more aggressive version of Canadian. As I want to play a shroud creature, nimble mongoose is there, one of the weaknesses of UR Delver is the vulnerability of their creatures. Mongoose improves many matchups.

[JDK]

The list is pretty weak to be honest and your assessment is off the mark.

That's pretty much RUG -Goyf +Pyromancer. Spare us the "but it has 2-3 more burnspells than most RUG lists!". Pyromancer is not more aggressive than Tarmogoyf and there is no point posting that list in here, since it features green. To add insult to injury you also play Goyf in the sideboard. Why not just play RUG? Your list doesn't provide the advantage of having a much more resilient manabase, much more aggressive playstyle and much more reach (Price of Progress!).

Having access to Mongoose doesn't justify the splash and losing the previously mentioned advantages. Delver, Guide and co don't have Shroud? Well, that's why you have a shitload of burn and counters.

Have you tried posting this in the Canadian-Thread?

[Andrew.Schneider]

The list is pretty weak to be honest and your assessment is off the mark.

That list looks a little ummm, loosey goosey...

I've had a few people message me about Young Pyromancer. Its obviously powerful (I've been having a ton of fun with it in Modern UR/Grixis) but it definitely doesn't just slot in like a lot of these lists are trying. It makes the most sense in a wasteland/stifle shell I guess. But then why are you playing all that burn if your game plan is to make them stumble? Goblin guide is way better then YP when you want to play the burn game. Other lists are cutting Snapcaster for YP while keeping all of the burn, which is super wrong. Don't get me wrong I love brewing, but I think a lot of these lists are worse versions of UR. I am a pretty big fan of Levin's grixis list though.

[beez]

What about the Todd Anderson build with the Pyromancers and Probes? I didnt have the SCG Premiummembership to watch it run.

[Qtc]

Hi,

So I'm a long time lurker and I came here to post my most recent form of U/R Delver. I have two other legacy decks which I really enjoy playing; Miracles and Rug Delver. My meta consists of ANT, D&T, Merfolk, Deathblade, U/B Tezz, the recent Big red deck and some others. My Miracles and Rug Delver decks work great and really rack me up some fine wins but U/R delver on the other hand has allways been a bit iffy. I feel that it lacks consistency, overall power and speed, and at times I just look at my awkward hand and want to put it on fire. A while ago I decided to completely take apart the deck and just start from scratch. Now I want to share with you my mindset during the creation of what has become a U/R deck that has started winning me a lot of games and what does exactly what I believe a U/R deck should do.

Evaluating current U/R delver

I felt there was a need to reeavaluate what this deck tries to do, what the gameplan is and in essence how it wants to win. As it is, the deck is just not good enough. The amount of times I've beaten or burned down my opponent to 6 life or even lower and still lose the game is just too damn high(pardon my french!) Now let me say that I don't consider myself a good magic player. For my Miracles deck I watch Joe Losset play a lot at twitchtv, and with a lot I mean allmost every day and I still don't understand a lot of his decisions(which are useually right), but I do know the difference between losing due to possible errors on my end or just losing because my deck isn't good enough. Now to start off with here's a list I ran for a long time and I consider a bit standard for U/R delver:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce

3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

3 Arid mesa
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Now if I would have posted this list under normal circumstances you would start to look at it and question why I would run 3 Dazes and/or 3 Spell Pierces, which is the normal way all of us usually judge decklists. But I don't want you to do that. I want you to question the deck the way I did when I started reevaluating U/R delver. I want you to ask yourself the most basic of basic-questions one can ask himself in magic: Why combine this color with that color? In this case red with blue. Well in U/R delver that isn't that difficult. In essence we primarily use red to damage our opponent and we primarily use blue to defend ourselves from our opponent. It's a very simple but effective strategy just as Wizards has intended the colors to be. But looking at the deck above.. Is this the best list we can rack up which follows this strategy? Or could it be done more effective?

We use red to do damage to our opponent. The 'best' red spell in legacy in my opninion is Lightning bolt; one mana instantly doing 3 damage to a creature or player. I like it and I want to use it. Are there any other spells which do that? Well yes! Chain lightning also does 3 damage but it isn't at instant speed which is a shame. But again for one mana we do 3 damage! If we could have a deck where every red mana we tap does 3 damage to our opponent, that could potentially be really good! I mean seriously if we hit our land drops and continually do 3 damage to our opponent with all our mana he would have been dealt 18 damage at the end of turn 3. If he fetched twice, he's dead. I know exactly what you're thinking. Yeah Burn does that.. and it's just not that good. No you're absolutely right, it isn't. But let's be honest the 'red' in U/R delver does in essence try and do the same thing as all the red spells in Burn. So why should we not look at Burn to see how it damages it's opponents, take it's most effective spells and leave the rest? A possible turn 3 kill still sounds good to me. The problem with Burn is that it can't defend itself, but we can because we also run blue!

So what spells should we need te run to defend ourselves as effective as possible? Well we need protection from a turn 0 kill. So we need Force of Will. Force of will also forces us to play around 16 blue spells at the minimum.. Well that's fine since we also want a couple Spell Pierces against combo. We also established that we want to keep hitting our opponent with 3 damage so we don't want the game to take very long. Daze is a good card in games that will not take long so we should add some of those aswell. Now we all know blue also has the best card in Legacy; Brainstorm. It fixes your hand by getting rid of junk and we want to be fast so we can't afford to have a junkie hand. We're not at 16 blue cards yet so we might aswell add 4 of those. Then there's ponder. We want to also make sure what we topdeck the next couple turns is good enough or when we should use a fetch. So let's add some Ponders aswell.

So you've come this far through this text and there's nothing new right? Still the same cards as the original U/R delver? Well it get's interesting from now on.

From here I will tell you what we're going to do different. Up untill this point we established two things; We want to effectively damage our opponent by doing 3 damage per red mana source tapped and we want effective counters for a short fast game.

So what cards should not be played?

Creatures.

Grim; We tap one red mana to get a 1/1 red creature which for every red mana we tap we do 2 damage. A good card but if my opponent plows him I lost a card didn't do my 3 damage and even if he lands I still have to tap a red source for two damage instead of my so desired 3. But he sticks and is a continual source of damage?! True, but for how long will he stick? Why would I prefer having him over a simple 3 damage spell.. It takes me 3 mana to make him do 4 damage over 3 turns.. Not efficient enough!

Snappie ; 2/1 creature that allows the recycling of cards. But seriously 3 mana for a 2/1 and a possible bolt.. Sure with flash but I want to continually damage my opponent and not use my burn to have to clear the bord for the 2/1 creature to actually connect. Too high of a chance that by the time I can put this guy into play there will be a creature to block him.. Again, not efficient enough.

GGuide;Then there's Goblin guide.. To be honest, I'm not sure about this guy.
If you can drop him turn one the chance of him connecting multiple times is pretty high. So for one mana you can get a lot more damage out of him then just 3.
The problem is the possibility of him fixing your opponent with landdrops and pulling him late game. Fixing our opponent with mana makes the midgame a bit more difficult. We want our dazes and pierces to remain effective as long as possible. And again we don't want to use burn to clear the board for a creature. Him being a 2/2 most likely is going to get him killed.. Not consistend enough.

Delver;No I'm kidding! I do want you to run this guy.
Seriously you don't tap a red for him but this guy is a consistent damage dealer. He's the only creature I will advise you to run. And trust me just running him is fantastic. I've had games where I didn't pull him and my opponent thought I ran a creatureless deck. Taking out his plows post board. You should have seen the look on his face when I landed 2 in the first few turns game two. My friends know I only run him and for them it's awkward as well. Do you take out spot removal? If not how many will you run? What's worse an unanswered Delver or dead cards in your hand and deck?

So basically it's pretty easy. Cut the dead creature cards that clog your hand and swap them for burn damage! No more opening hands with Grim Lavamancers and Snapcaster mages. Start with consistently doing your opponent damage turn one and enjoy it.

What other burn spells should you run?

Well we look at Burn decks and we take the ones that do 3 damage. Doesn't matter if the cards are at sorcery speed. Let them use their counters if they feel they need to. As long as you can keep some mana open to counter cards that wreck you, you should be quite good. I advocate running 4 Lava Spikes and 3 Rift Bolts. Sure slow cards but they will do 3 damage for one mana that's all you need.

There are only two cards I advise you to run that potentially do not follow my own 1 mana 3 damage rule;
Price of Progress
Thunderous Wrath

Price of Progress; In this meta is very, very good. All these Delver and DRS decks in the current meta make this card extremely worth it. Sure it may not allways hit for 6 or more but it's just to good to not play. Secondly it's an instant which means you can use it in end steps which is nice since it's a 2 mana card.

Thunderous Wrath; Well then there's this card. You either hate it or love it.. I love it. Sure not that great having it in your opening hand or it getting stifled but we do run brainstorm. This card in this deck simply asks your opponent; do you have a counter? I used to run 3 and have reccently upped my count to 4. It is just that great.

Well that's it I discussed allmost everything so here's my decklist

Decklist U/R Burn
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Ponder
4 Thunderous Wrath
3 Rift Bolt

3 Mountain
2 Island
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island

SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental

There are some things to keep in mind when playing this deck. For instance what do you counter? Well I usually don't care what my opponent plays unless it wrecks my game like Chalice on 1, Trinisphere, a Thalia or of course comboing off. During most of my games however my counters are there to push my burn through. Especially Thunderous Wrath and Price of Progress can really be worth defending with countermagic. Sometimes you'll find that your hand is a bit clogged with blue spells.. It happens just stick with the game plan. It is especially in these cases that I find Thunderous Wrath to be very effective. A one mana 5 damage spell puts you back on track in no time.

There are still some things I go back and forth on. I don't know what the best numbers are when it comes to countermagic; do I need 4 Forces? Should I add an additional daze by cutting a ponder? How many pierces is correct? What I do know is I really hate Force of Will in this deck in fact I hate it so much I'm thinking of cutting it and putting Flusterstorms in.
And then there's the mana base.. Even with 17 lands I feel I get flooded quite often and I don't really know what I should do about that. By cutting snappie you really don't need more than 3 lands in play. But I'm a bit anxious about going any lower than 17, don't want to get wastelanded out of the game. On the other hand Rug delver has 18 lands of which 4 are wastelands and I've never tried going lower than 17.

So tell me what you guys think, any advice is welcome!

[uncletiggy]

Qtc I've been on the thunderous wrath plan for some time now and I can tell you portent is a stricktly better replacement for ponder I can't count the number of times I've won during my opponents upkeep. Keep in mind you can also target your opponent. I'm also revamping my approach to u/r as I'd like to find a way to make standstill work as the deck needs a way to accrue some CA. Especially when Pop is a dead card.

[JDK]

What about the Todd Anderson build with the Pyromancers and Probes? I didnt have the SCG Premiummembership to watch it run.
It's pretty much the same as the Wasteland/Stifle-lists that have been posted here on the last two pages.


@qtc
You forgot one thing though: Creatures provide a constant damage source that can hit multiple times.

There's no reason (budget is no reason when you suggest a list) to run Steam Vents over Volcanic Island and three Mountains are too much, as you want to be able to cast every spell with one or two lands in play.

[Qtc]

@qtc
You forgot one thing though: Creatures provide a constant damage source that can hit multiple times.

There's no reason (budget is no reason when you suggest a list) to run Steam Vents over Volcanic Island and three Mountains are too much, as you want to be able to cast every spell with one or two lands in play.

Yes you are correct. Creatures are a continual source of damage... If they can connect. That was one of the main reasons for me to take them out actually. The creatures we run are at best 2/2's (Delver not included). If my opponent has blockers the best I will do is trade with him. Which is not good enough for me. It's what I said about Goblin Guide it's a very fast 2/2 than can connect multiple times but if i pull him lategame and there's a blocker I would much rather have a 3 damage burn spell. This is even more the case with Snapcaster. He's going to cost me 3 mana for at best a flashbacked bolt. My opponent can simply choose to let him resolve if he has a Goyf in play, totally worth it for him. If your creatures are not connecting you have a problem, and you have to choose to either spend burn damage to resolve this problem or you let your creatures die or do nothing.
Besides, if I have an opening hand with double snapcaster or double Grim lavamancer or a combination of both I am not happy camper because it's going to take me a while to get the damage going. A hand with Rift bolts and Lava spikes on the other hand is fine by me. Taking out these slow creature cards really fixes the opening hands I used to want to set on fire..

I don't know what the Steam Vents are doing there.. Took me a while to write the post though so I've must've gotten tired. I fixed it in the original, thanks!
Like I said, the manabase is still a bit iffy.. But the reason I run three mountains and only two duals is because of Wasteland and Stifle. You don't want to lose lands if you're allready tight on them. Mixing an average number of basics in with fetches kind of solves that problem. It also gives you the opportunity to go full basics which is also pretty nice. This is only a two color deck so it's much more forgiving.

@uncletiggy

I like the idea of Portent, but I don't think it does what I would want it to do. The idea that if you choose to shuffle with Portent you don't run the risk of pulling a Wrath which you can't Miracle since you drew the card on your upkeep is correct. But after that draw from Portent I will also have another draw for my turn, the chance of that being a Wrath is theoretically the same.. ergo Portent didn't do anything but delay me a card in my hand. With ponder it's different if I see a Wrath I simple asses whether it's worth drawing another of the 3 cards first and put Wrath on top, if the other 2 are just too bad and I need to shuffle. It's basically the same but Ponder does what Portent tries to do a turn faster.

[Qtc]

@uncletiggy

I like the idea of Portent, but I don't think it does what I would want it to do. The idea that if you choose to shuffle with Portent you don't run the risk of pulling a Wrath which you can't Miracle since you drew the card on your upkeep is correct. But after that draw from Portent I will also have another draw for my turn, the chance of that being a Wrath is theoretically the same.. ergo Portent didn't do anything but delay me a card in my hand. With ponder it's different if I see a Wrath I simple asses whether it's worth drawing another of the 3 cards first and put Wrath on top, if the other 2 are just too bad and I need to shuffle. It's basically the same but Ponder does what Portent tries to do a turn faster.

Huh oh wow.. I read it wrong! I thought portent said draw a card at the begininning of your next turn. But you are correct it draws me a card at the beginning of my opponents turn. That's actually pretty good. It doesn't let you chain Portents though like you could with ponder, but I think I can live with that. I will definitely try it out! Seeing as how you've allready tested this card, does it give you a problem with keeping mana open for control? I mean it could force you to tap out..

[JDK]

Not running a decent amount of creatures produces more awkward hands and you tend to run out of gas more easily. You don't have to spend more resources after casting a creature and you can hit them multiple times. If they trade or have a removal, they at least wasted resources on it.

Running a really burn heavy UR shell just lacks a clock for most matchups, especially combo. You are not a fast enough burn deck to race them, despite (or due to) playing counters, which is why it's essential to get a clock on the table and have resources available to fight the combo.

We've all tinkered with Wrath and it can be game-ending, but also cripples hands significantly.

[Heresy]

What about the Todd Anderson build with the Pyromancers and Probes? I didnt have the SCG Premiummembership to watch it run.

Here's the list :

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder

2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Gut Shot
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction

[beez]

Did it seem effective?

[blindspotxxx]

Been using Todd's list for our casual weekly Legacy tournaments and I must say it is strong but it has like a 50/50 matchup against RUG and Patriot. So far whoever goes 1st wins, Patriot has been a harder match up as they run so much removal against us. It is really hard to stick a threat and they have Geist which when in play cannot be answered. Darkblast is also a very strong card against this deck, killing everything we can put down not to mention Engineered Plague!

[JDK]

Tried the list yesterday at our national championship, because I wanted to play Pyromancer and somehow missed the opportunity to test.

Matchups were UWr Miracles (win), Dark Maverick (loss), Sneak Attack (win), RUGby (loss) & DnT (win)

Against Maverick I had to mulligan to four in Game 1 and got crushed by three GSZ and three Knights. Game 2 (mull to 6) was close, but I drew into lands and faced spells...
Somehow I always end up on the draw against RUGby (blabla bUrg), which is pretty unbeatable if you face a good starting hand (7). I take home Game 2, but Game 3 I get triple Stifle'd plus Wastelanded. Yeah, fun games.

The list is okay, but Wasteland results is some awkward situations and hands, where you curse it for not being a colored source. 18 lands is also pretty risky, as you want to be able to use Snapcaster Mage and put Pyromancer into play in addition to casting spells. Maybe I continue tinkering with the list, but I feel like my traditional UR lists are still more consistent.

[diego1985]

I try a lot of solutions with a wasteland...

For me a better solution is
3 waste for a 18 land
4 waste for a 20 land

Anyway i prefer PoP because is synergic with a pyro, lavamcer and snapcaster. Waste is synergic only with a lavamancer... For mana denial i preferer a stifle

[Angelteg]

Wait til you all wake up (literally. Its almost midnight) and see Demonheart Chimera. Top of the curve at 3, but I think it could be pretty darn good as a 2 of.

[Qtc]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ths/cards/demonheartchimera.jpg

So yeah even though I really do like my recent change to a more U/R Burn type deck like I posted before, I have to say that this creature is pretty damn good.
I think it's totally worth adjusting U/R delver to complement this creature as much as it can.. So how do you guys think this creature can best be utilized? I'm thinking about something like this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Demonheart Chimera

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland


You want to run as much instants and sorceries for all 3 creatures so that really makes me like Gitaxian Probe in this deck.


Wait til you all wake up (literally. Its almost midnight) and see Demonheart Chimera. Top of the curve at 3, but I think it could be pretty darn good as a 2 of.

Just like Canadian Thresh you'll only need one maybe two lands in your opener to function. The Brainstorms, Ponders and Probe's will make you hit your land drops so I think it's safe to up the Chimera count to 4. We're also a 2 color deck so we can't get color screwed from waste.
Thoughts?

[Angelteg]

I've said it before, I really think that if you're going to run a lot of non basics and not run price of progress, you should just play RUG.

In my meta, I like being able to play a list with 3 basic islands and 3 basic mountains. I'm sure its meta dependant, but if I have a price of progress and a counter in my hand on turn 4, I'm winning that game.

I'm going to test something with 4 delver, 4 pyromancer 3 chimera and 2 snapcaster.

[Heresy]

I've said it before, I really think that if you're going to run a lot of non basics and not run price of progress, you should just play RUG.

In my meta, I like being able to play a list with 3 basic islands and 3 basic mountains. I'm sure its meta dependant, but if I have a price of progress and a counter in my hand on turn 4, I'm winning that game.

I'm going to test something with 4 delver, 4 pyromancer 3 chimera and 2 snapcaster. I've been running a list with lot of basics (6 like you) for a long time, but with testing, I feel like it's overdoing it. Sometimes you're screwing yourself opening with a mountain and not having daze active. I now run 2 island 2 mountain 10 fetches and 4 volcanic and it's really smooth (with 2 pop main).

[JDK]

Six basics are just overload. Basics shouldn't be there to make yourself PoP-proof (it happens really rarely, because you should be ahead in the damage race anyway), but to be able to cast things despite playing against Wasteland.

Running a list with 18 lands (4 of which are Wastelands), Pyromancer/Snapcaster and a 3-drop is the best way to ensure you lose to mana-screw.

[Qtc]

Six basics are just overload. Basics shouldn't be there to make yourself PoP-proof (it happens really rarely, because you should be ahead in the damage race anyway), but to be able to cast things despite playing against Wasteland.

Running a list with 18 lands (4 of which are Wastelands), Pyromancer/Snapcaster and a 3-drop is the best way to ensure you lose to mana-screw.

I agree with the Basic land part. Running basics means Wasteland has less targets so you can play spells regardless. I can see cutting down a volcanic in favor of an Island to ensure having the option of going full basics if needed, but having six basics is just pure overkill. A deck like I posted earlier is fine with opening with an island or fetching for one as long as you can ensure you find a fetch for a mountain and it doesn't get stifled.

I don't think running a deck with 18 lands, 4 or which are Wastelands, with a creaturebase with pyromancer and a 3 drop(snap is a 3 drop, which therefore I would never run alongside the Chimera) will ensure getting mana screwed. Like I said. 4 brainstorms, 4 ponders and 4 probes. A lot of thresh decks play the same mana base and sure their creatures are a bit cheaper but they do run 3 colors so it's a lot easier to keep them off a color. Besides you also run stifle in this list as well which can protect your lands against Wasteland.
I would much rather say that this deck might give some (occasional?) mana problems but I don't think it will ensure it at all. I mean simply look at the Eric Rills Grixis deck of two weeks ago. He pulled it off with the same mana base and the only thing we do differently is run 4 creatures with a cmc of 3 instead of 2. It might screw us over or it might give no problem at all seeing how we run basics and are a 2 color deck(I know Rill ran bob so he had more draw than this deck would have but still). There is always the possibility of running a single extra land like the UWR decks did to not get in trouble playing Mystic's and Geists/Clique's.

[JMLL]

...
4 Demonheart Chimera


In my opinion, a card that is in Lightning range and that doesn't have haste is not worth a spot in these lists. I may be wrong, but if it was flying + haste instead of flying + trample, I could think about it. For me, although it hits hard, it hits late, and there are already a lot of answers to it, specially if you give your opponent the chance to untap.
With the maindeck graveyard hate we see these days in the form of Deathrite Shaman, this Chimera doesn't fit into UR in Legacy.

[Heresy]

In my opinion, a card that is in Lightning range and that doesn't have haste is not worth a spot in these lists. I may be wrong, but if it was flying + haste instead of flying + trample, I could think about it. For me, although it hits hard, it hits late, and there are already a lot of answers to it, specially if you give your opponent the chance to untap.
With the maindeck graveyard hate we see these days in the form of Deathrite Shaman, this Chimera doesn't fit into UR in Legacy.

Thing is, all of our critters are in Bolt range and without haste (except GG) : Delver, YP, Grim, Snapcaster and Nivmagus, but they see play. This is why I don't think it's a valid argument against Demonheart Chimera. Also, Grim and Snapcaster are still ''core'' cards even in the face of Deathrite.dec, so I don't see why Demonheart would not be considered for this reason too, since Grim and Snapcaster are arguably weaker to Deathrite.


I'm going to test something with 4 delver, 4 pyromancer 3 chimera and 2 snapcaster. I like where you're going with this suite. They all have considerable presence and impact whether in the form of evasive beating, enter the battlefield goodness or being a token factory.

[JDK]

I don't think running a deck with 18 lands, 4 or which are Wastelands, with a creaturebase with pyromancer and a 3 drop(snap is a 3 drop, which therefore I would never run alongside the Chimera) will ensure getting mana screwed. Like I said. 4 brainstorms, 4 ponders and 4 probes. A lot of thresh decks play the same mana base and sure their creatures are a bit cheaper but they do run 3 colors so it's a lot easier to keep them off a color. Besides you also run stifle in this list as well which can protect your lands against Wasteland.
I would much rather say that this deck might give some (occasional?) mana problems but I don't think it will ensure it at all. I mean simply look at the Eric Rills Grixis deck of two weeks ago. He pulled it off with the same mana base and the only thing we do differently is run 4 creatures with a cmc of 3 instead of 2. It might screw us over or it might give no problem at all seeing how we run basics and are a 2 color deck(I know Rill ran bob so he had more draw than this deck would have but still). There is always the possibility of running a single extra land like the UWR decks did to not get in trouble playing Mystic's and Geists/Clique's.
I wouldn't look at RUG and say "hey they can do it as well", because RUG can actually function with 1-2 lands consistently. You are already aware of the things which make those manabases work (cheaper creatures, CA machines), so you should know running Bob instead of Chimera is something completely different, as it costs "only" 2 AND provides a shitload of card-advantage.

Of course it might work well enough, but I don't think playing 3-drops with 18 lands in a Stifle/Wasteland format is that good, unless it's a resilient beast which provides a fast clock.


Thing is, all of our critters are in Bolt range and without haste (except GG) : Delver, YP, Grim, Snapcaster and Nivmagus, but they see play. This is why I don't think it's a valid argument against Demonheart Chimera. Also, Grim and Snapcaster are still ''core'' cards even in the face of Deathrite.dec, so I don't see why Demonheart would not be considered for this reason too, since Grim and Snapcaster are arguably weaker to Deathrite.
The difference is, that cards like Delver are cheaper and/or provide value despite eating removal. You don't as easily tap out for those creatures as you'd do for Chimera. So yeah, it IS a valid argument.
Grim isn't exactly shut down or significantly crippled by Deathrite Shaman, as you take any two cards in your graveyard as part of the activation costs. Snapcaster is still a 2/1 body and can be cast in response to a Shaman activation.

Also don't forget Rest in Peace is a card. One of the advantages of UR over RUG is it's 'kinda' resilience regarding GY hate. If you add Chimera, you are us vulnerable in that department, but also susceptible to targeted removal.

[blindspotxxx]

I wouldn't look at RUG and say "hey they can do it as well", because RUG can actually function with 1-2 lands consistently. You are already aware of the things which make those manabases work (cheaper creatures, CA machines), so you should know running Bob instead of Chimera is something completely different, as it costs "only" 2 AND provides a shitload of card-advantage.

Of course it might work well enough, but I don't think playing 3-drops with 18 lands in a Stifle/Wasteland format is that good, unless it's a resilient beast which provides a fast clock.


The difference is, that cards like Delver are cheaper and/or provide value despite eating removal. You don't as easily tap out for those creatures as you'd do for Chimera. So yeah, it IS a valid argument.
Grim isn't exactly shut down or significantly crippled by Deathrite Shaman, as you take any two cards in your graveyard as part of the activation costs. Snapcaster is still a 2/1 body and can be cast in response to a Shaman activation.

Also don't forget Rest in Peace is a card. One of the advantages of UR over RUG is it's 'kinda' resilience regarding GY hate. If you add Chimera, you are us vulnerable in that department, but also susceptible to targeted removal.

You are absolutely right :) It might make it in modern though :)

[JDK]

Actually it's not much different in Modern. Rest in Peace isn't as good there, but Deathrite Shaman, Lightning Bolt & Path to Exile are at an all-time high and UWr as well as UR decks cannot tap out on turn three for an unprotected threat. UWr Midrange has Geist and UR (Aggro-Control) would need the card to have Flash (which would be enough to make me insta-slam this flying Goat into some of my decks).

It's really a shame. I guess only Standard will show the appropriate love for this card. Anyway, I will still try to get some games going with it. ;)

[JMLL]

The difference is, that cards like Delver are cheaper and/or provide value despite eating removal. You don't as easily tap out for those creatures as you'd do for Chimera. So yeah, it IS a valid argument.
Grim isn't exactly shut down or significantly crippled by Deathrite Shaman, as you take any two cards in your graveyard as part of the activation costs. Snapcaster is still a 2/1 body and can be cast in response to a Shaman activation.

Also don't forget Rest in Peace is a card. One of the advantages of UR over RUG is it's 'kinda' resilience regarding GY hate. If you add Chimera, you are us vulnerable in that department, but also susceptible to targeted removal.

+1

That is what I was trying to point out, not clearly enough it seems :) Thanks

[Heresy]

Brought this at a small tournament in Montreal :

UR Delver by Claudio Zulro

Creatures [15]
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Young Pyromancer

Instants [18]
2 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Flusterstorm
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries [9]
2 Ponder
3 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe

Lands [18]
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
3 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Sulfur Elemental

Only 10 people showed up, so three rounds it was. Got paired up against Welder+Forgemaster MUD for the first match (Lost 2-1). I win first game on the back of Delver and YP stalling the board. Sided in 2 Smash and 2 FoW for 4 Flusterstorm. Game 2, I had to mull twice, searching some outs to Chalice, to finally keep a bad five, without hate. I felt behind early and never could come on top, he had all the bombs against me. I sided again 2 Probe for FoW and PoP (A mistake. Should have took 2 Daze out instead.) Game 3 was a closer game but he eventually draws Cavern of Souls and plays Lodestone Golem off it. I lose soon after, without seeing any bolt.
Second pairing was against UG Madness (budget list, won 2-0). G1, he struggled to find a green mana source while I was amassing an army (I thought at this point that I was against budget MUC). He finally draws a forest but it's too late. Sided in 2 PoP for 2 Pyroblast. G2, he has an early Wild Mongrel that I try to Chain on my turn, making him discards 2 cards and growing Nivmagus, but he plays Unsummon in response. Too bad for him, I have a Flusterstorm in hand. He blocks a giant Nivmagus with Mongrel, leaving him without board presence. He slows me a little with Aether Burst on his turn, but I choose to replay Nivmagus and a YP that I drew on mine. He can't handle them and lose.
Last round was against Elves (modern version, won 2-0). He has no outs vs bolts+grim (played on my first turn in both games) and I have the forces g2 (sided in 2 forces for 2 PoP) at the right time when he tries to do anything close to "broken". I made top 3 with 6 points, but prizes were given to top 2 only. I strongly suggest running YP but I'm still unsure about Nivmagus... he's great when you can spare some cards or play around stuff but sometimes he does nothing for turns and end up being just a 1/2. Also, the dis-synergy with Grim can be problematic when you need a full graveyard.

[Wozmaz90]

Hi guys,

First time posting in this thread. I have been messing around with the idea of a U/R fish style deck. Here is my list.

Artifacts:
Aether Vial x2

Creatures:
Delver of secrets x4
Grim Lavamancer x3
Snapcaster mage x3
Voidmage prodigy x2
Younger Pyromancer x3

Enchantments:
Standstill x3

Instants:
Brainstorm x4
Daze x3
Divert x1
Force of will x3
Lightning bolt x4
Price of progress x2

Soceries:
Chain lightning x1
Ponder x4

Lands:
Arid mesa x3
Island x4
Misty rainforest x1
Mountain x4
Scalding Tarn x4
Volcanic Island x2



SB:
Dismember x2
Flusterstorm x1
Force of Will x1
Price of progress x2
Pyroblast x1
Red Elemental Blast x1
Smash to smithereens x2
Submerge x2
Surgical extraction x3

So far it has played well in play testing. Chalice for 1 absolutely wreaks me though so I have to really careful and play around it. Has anyone else tried standstill/aether vial in a deck like this? I'd love to hear your thoughts!

[KobeBryan]

Hi guys,

First time posting in this thread. I have been messing around with the idea of a U/R fish style deck. Here is my list.

Artifacts:
Aether Vial x2

Creatures:
Delver of secrets x4
Grim Lavamancer x3
Snapcaster mage x3
Voidmage prodigy x2
Younger Pyromancer x3

Enchantments:
Standstill x3

Instants:
Brainstorm x4
Daze x3
Divert x1
Force of will x3
Lightning bolt x4
Price of progress x2

Soceries:
Chain lightning x1
Ponder x4

Lands:
Arid mesa x3
Island x4
Misty rainforest x1
Mountain x4
Scalding Tarn x4
Volcanic Island x2



SB:
Dismember x2
Flusterstorm x1
Force of Will x1
Price of progress x2
Pyroblast x1
Red Elemental Blast x1
Smash to smithereens x2
Submerge x2
Surgical extraction x3

So far it has played well in play testing. Chalice for 1 absolutely wreaks me though so I have to really careful and play around it. Has anyone else tried standstill/aether vial in a deck like this? I'd love to hear your thoughts!

I can tell you having 2 vials is not the way to go.

[KobeBryan]

Do you guys seem like you are losing when you are running out of fuel?

I'm trying to play the burn version with 4 chains 4 bolts and 2 price. However, I'm finding it difficult ot end the game when the other player stabilizes. Dealing with batterskull and jitte has been a pain for me too.

The young pyro's have been too slow for me. I'm not playing the version with the probes, stifles and wastelands.

[KobeBryan]

In my opinion alot of these lists are in the middle of nowhere ie. not quite aggro enough or not quite midrange enough. There was a theoretical list on SCG that runs 4 Stifle, 4 Snapcaster instead of extra burn and Goblin Guide. This obviously loses Goblin Guides explosiveness and reach + removal for blockers in exchange for more midrange power and ability to screw manabases.

My honest opinion is that the Tap out version is better because I hate stifle in a deck without spell pierce and or spell snare. If you have stifle in hand and keep mana open, they might not play a fetch which kills you on tempo. You can't wait around for them to play a fetch, this deck needs to be aggressive. I prefer running 4 Guides and More burn to be max aggressive.

I actually agree on the more burn strategy. This deck is in essence a burn deck and needs to finish with fast beats and cheap counters. I really don't want to leave any mana open.

[Megadeus]

Right. Which is why pyromancer isn't that great for this deck

[.Ix]

I actually agree on the more burn strategy. This deck is in essence a burn deck and needs to finish with fast beats and cheap counters. I really don't want to leave any mana open.

I agree with this as well. Keeping mana up for counters is not what I want to be doing with this deck. I would rather dig for my threats and beat their answers.

I thought of Reforge the Soul as a way to gas up midgame. My build is focused on playing creatures, protecting them, and keeping blockers off the table like Ivanpei's list. I loaded up on free spells, though, running 4 FOW, 2 Misdirection, and 2 Pyrokinesis (my meta is very creature heavy) in the maindeck. I started with 4 Gitaxian Probe and it was great, but I don't think the deck really needs the card, especially because I would fetch basics ASAP anyway, and I had no intention of ever keeping mana up. I have only played a few games, but Reforge has been good so far. Batterskull and Jitte, and Souls are really really hard to beat, but Pyrokinesis definitely helps.


4 Young Pyromancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Island
4 Daze
2 Reforge the Soul
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Misdirection
1 Forked Bolt


It's obviously pretty rough. I'm trying to optimize it but I can't test very often.

[diego1985]

This evening i try 3 different versions of deck and i loss 0-3 0-3 0-3 vs goblin... My lists

A)
// Deck: UR Delver (60)

// Lands
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

// Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Fire // Ice (Fire)
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce

// Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

B)-2 pop +chimera

C) -2POP -2spell pierce -3fatch
+4stifle +3wasteland

For me a ploblems are a few removal and a lot of game were i m whitout cads in hand.... Help

[KobeBryan]

This evening i try 3 different versions of deck and i loss 0-3 0-3 0-3 vs goblin... My lists

A)
// Deck: UR Delver (60)

// Lands
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

// Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Fire // Ice (Fire)
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce

// Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

B)-2 pop +chimera

C) -2POP -2spell pierce -3fatch
+4stifle +3wasteland

For me a ploblems are a few removal and a lot of game were i m whitout cads in hand.... Help

I have tested reforge the souls. It does help a lot when you are out of cards in hand. Sure if gives them more cards, but you usually have fewer cards in hand than your opponent. You would usually net 6 new cards while they only net like 3-4

Helps with combo too when they are crafting their hand and you reforge and make them get rid of their sculpted hand.

[.Ix]

I have tested reforge the souls. It does help a lot when you are out of cards in hand. Sure if gives them more cards, but you usually have fewer cards in hand than your opponent. You would usually net 6 new cards while they only net like 3-4

Helps with combo too when they are crafting their hand and you reforge and make them get rid of their sculpted hand.

This is exactly what I have found as well. And with tons of free and one-mana spells, it doesn't matter too much if they get new cards because you can typically either deal the last few points of damage, or answer their next turn without having to tap mana and kill them anyway. Pretty interesting. Casting Reforge the Soul for 5 mana has not been terrible, too, and Pyrokinesis can pitch Reforge if you really have no way to cast it.

[diego1985]

i would try a guttersnipe. for you is a good solution?

[beez]

If Guttersnipe cost 2cc rather than 3cc he would be much more of a boss.

[diego1985]

costo 3 whit lightining botl and chain lightning is very synergic...

[attemanden]

Hello guys.
I just played UR delver at my latest tournament and found goblin guide giving way too many lands for my oponent. espeically since there are so many brainstorms in the meta. well, he also did good dmg in some games, but maybe we can find a better creature?
i was thinking of vexing devil, he have probably been a topic before but heres my arguments:
first of all he has a CMC 1 like the guide. if he hits the board its and 4/3 for 1 CMC which is quite strong. if he doesnt land the board hes and 4 dmg bold for 1 mana which is great aswell. what are the arguments of not playing this guy? he must be better than the guide?

let me hear your thoughts...

[UnderwaterGuy]

costo 3 whit lightining botl and chain lightning is very synergic...

There is no synergy there.

[beez]

Hello guys.
I just played UR delver at my latest tournament and found goblin guide giving way too many lands for my oponent. espeically since there are so many brainstorms in the meta. well, he also did good dmg in some games, but maybe we can find a better creature?
i was thinking of vexing devil, he have probably been a topic before but heres my arguments:
first of all he has a CMC 1 like the guide. if he hits the board its and 4/3 for 1 CMC which is quite strong. if he doesnt land the board hes and 4 dmg bold for 1 mana which is great aswell. what are the arguments of not playing this guy? he must be better than the guide?

let me hear your thoughts...

People have tried Devil but he is a bit lacking, in that given the choice they will make the one best for them. There is a new one drop in Theros that seems interesting, but I havent had time to give him a lot of thought yet.

Firedrinker Satyr

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=513189

My feeling is no toughness gain would be a problem vs Chump blockers and it would take a bit of pumping to kill a goyf with him.

[KobeBryan]

Hello guys.
I just played UR delver at my latest tournament and found goblin guide giving way too many lands for my oponent. espeically since there are so many brainstorms in the meta. well, he also did good dmg in some games, but maybe we can find a better creature?
i was thinking of vexing devil, he have probably been a topic before but heres my arguments:
first of all he has a CMC 1 like the guide. if he hits the board its and 4/3 for 1 CMC which is quite strong. if he doesnt land the board hes and 4 dmg bold for 1 mana which is great aswell. what are the arguments of not playing this guy? he must be better than the guide?

let me hear your thoughts...

let them draw lands. Then you price of progress them

[attemanden]

My experience with the guide is just that giving them the lands somehow gives them one extra turn in the way that they'll get another draw and possible a card to answer our threads. and i think we agree that the guide has done plenty if he succesfully deals 4 dmg (and thats if we are on the play). i was just thinking that the devil can deal 4 dmg aswell one way or another. we would always prefer them to take the 4 dmg, which is very beneficial for a 1 CMC. but if not putting a 4/3 for 1 mana is better than a guide?... i generel a 4/3 for 1 mana is good.

I will be testing a list of:

Creatures: 10
4 delver of secrets
4 Vexing devil
2 Kiln fiend

Instants: 24
4 lightning bolt
4 brainstorm
3 force of will
2 spell pierce
3 daze
4 Price of Progress
2 Thunderous wrath
2 Gitaxian probes

sorceries: 8
4 ponder
4 chain lightnings

Lands: 18
2 volcanic island
3 island
3 mountains
4 scalding tarns
3 misty rainforest
3 bloodstained mire

[Andrew.Schneider]

If you think Goblin Guide is bad you're doing something wrong.

[diego1985]

If you think Goblin Guide is bad you're doing something wrong.

is better than a pyromancer? also if is better isnt a finisher... dor me this deck need a strong finisher. chimera??

[Megadeus]

is better than a pyromancer? also if is better isnt a finisher... dor me this deck need a strong finisher. chimera??

Your finisher is PoP. Or three burn spells going to the dome

[KobeBryan]

Your finisher is PoP. Or three burn spells going to the dome

reforge the souls then 3 burn spells ot the dome.

[FANAttIC]

We had big Italian legacy tournament this weekend with this prizes:

PRIZE GUARANTEED:
01° 40 Dual Lands WB + 1 BYE AND ENTRY FEE FOR AUTUMN MAGIC http://www.mtgproject.es/visita-de-m...tfin-a-espana/
02° 40 Fecthland + 1 BYE FOR AUTUMN MAGIC http://www.mtgproject.es/visita-de-m...tfin-a-espana/
03° 20 Fetch Onslaught + 1 BYE FOR AUTUMN MAGIC http://www.mtgproject.es/visita-de-m...tfin-a-espana/
04° 20 Fecht Zendikar + 1 BYE FOR AUTUMN MAGIC http://www.mtgproject.es/visita-de-m...tfin-a-espana/
05° Set Tarmogoyf + Jace The Mind Sculptor
06° Set Tropical Island WB
07° Set Tundra WB
08° Set Volcanic Island WB
09° Set Bayou WB
10° Set Taiga WB
11° Set Badland WB
12° Set Scrubland WB
13° Set Thoughtseize
14° Set Wasteland
15° Set Vendilion Clique
16° Set Brainstorm FOIL FNM
17° Jace The mind Sculptor
18° Set Noble Hierarch
19° Set Sensei's Divining Top FOIL FTVE
20° Set Cavern of Souls
21° Set Flusterstorm
22° Set Vindicate
23° Set Deathrite Shaman
24° Set Baleful Strix
25° Set Pernicious Deed
26° Set Shardless Agent
27° Set Aether Vial
28° Set Stifle
29° Set Stoneforge Mystic
30° Set Thalia, Guardian of Thraben CHI
31° Set Ancient Tomb
32° Set Ancient Tomb

There was also:
THE SHOW OF THE MOST PIMPED DECK EVER CREATED
The most pimped cards from different pimper collectors, will be put togheter to create a fantastic deck, unique in the world, don't miss the opportunity to see this wonder.
:laugh:


ur pyrodelver splits the finals with maverick. If anyone still suspects that Pyromancer is not a fifth member of 1C megacycle, well...

Main:
Creatures (15)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
Lands (18)

1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Spells (27)

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder


Sideboard

3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Electrickery
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Submerge

[ivanpei]

I like that list in a combo/control heavy meta. The creature base is perfect though I prefer more removal over pierce/stifle. Reason being that this deck is already so boss against combo due to counters and a super fast clock.

The deck's nightmare are creature heavy midrange matchups and removal is needed to clear blockers.

[diego1985]

what are the targets on which you will usually use the stifle?

[FANAttIC]

Main targets are probably still fetches to maximize Daze.
That is why this version runs Wasteland instead of Price.
It is impossible to play around Daze against this deck.
In the meantime, the "power 5" member is churning tokens.

M14 was so kind to my legacy needs, I got Tidebinder for merfolks and YP for this.
It's hard to find enough torunaments to play both decks :cool:.
There are two legacy tournaments near me in a month: BOM Paris and a smaller one in my country.
I now have to clear my schedule and find some money lying around :wink:

[Andrew.Schneider]

reforge the souls then 3 burn spells ot the dome.

Why do you have to play a clunky card to do this? gross.

[Andrew.Schneider]

ur pyrodelver splits the finals with maverick. If anyone still suspects that Pyromancer is not a fifth member of 1C megacycle, well...

Main:
Creatures (15)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
Lands (18)

1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Spells (27)

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder


Sideboard

3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Electrickery
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Submerge

I'd be really scared to play this against a stoneforge deck, only 4 bolts. And this list looks really confused. It is giving up a lot of the reach to play a similar gameplan like RUG while still playing worse cards like Goblin Guide. I think if you want to play this kind of strategy you need to dip in to green or black. Probably green. I played grixis at the last open in ATL, I enjoyed it but I just felt behind in the RUG matchup.

[diego1985]

I'd be really scared to play this against a stoneforge deck, only 4 bolts. And this list looks really confused. It is giving up a lot of the reach to play a similar gameplan like RUG while still playing worse cards like Goblin Guide. I think if you want to play this kind of strategy you need to dip in to green or black. Probably green. I played grixis at the last open in ATL, I enjoyed it but I just felt behind in the RUG matchup.

this evening I try thos list vs goblin and i m agree whit Andrew. for me chain lightning or fireblast are necessary.

ps. this list have a wonderful race :-)

[ivanpei]

Imo 7 removal spells +3 Grims to me is the absolute minimum. Since the best 4 are bolts, Dismember, Chain and Forked Bolt are fighting for the other slots.

Imo Price of Progress and Fireblast are finishers and should not eat into the removal space above. I personally run 4 bolts, 3 Forked bolt, 3 dismember and 1 rushing river. I max out the removal but had to sacrifice probes.

To be honest I hate probes in this deck. Yes it's good with YP and gives you information but it has its problems.

1. It floods you with lands. I flood way more often with probes because unlike other cantrips, I don't choose what I draw.
2. The pain limits other pain cards like dismember. Playing dismember and probe in the same deck is a nightmare. I find that dismember is >>> probe in terms or importance.
3. Probes info is irrelevant in stifleless builds. Since we don't run stifles, the information from probe doesn't help us decide if we should tap out for a threat or not. This deck is balls to the wall aggro and we are tapping out everyturn for dudes or burn.

Yp is good with Probe but other than him, probe does not combo with much else in the deck. I'm currently back to zero probes and am much happier.

[blindspotxxx]

Still can't deny his finish from 400 players. I dislike his sideboard though, too many REB effects

[attemanden]

What do you guys think about playing flame rift?

[UnderwaterGuy]

What do you guys think about playing flame rift?

Sorcery speed burn is kind of meh in my opinion.

It has a big problem of being 4 mana to cast this with Snapcaster too. If we want to play instants/sorceries with cmc>1 then the land cannot function so well with the low land count. It might be worth trying but I think it changes the aim of the deck.

[KobeBryan]

i see some of andrew's list that runs only 2 dazes. how good is daze when you have guide to give them so many lands.

there's got to be another card that adds fuel to the burn or counters.