[Deck] U/R Delver

[Neffy]

i see some of andrew's list that runs only 2 dazes. how good is daze when you have guide to give them so many lands.

there's got to be another card that adds fuel to the burn or counters.

I am planning to test a UR delver deck with 2-3 thunderous wraths supported by Portent. I like wraths as burn and portent is timing the draw nicely for miracle. Also you can mini-fate seal the opponent if you need to. Of course Portent will not replace Ponder completely.

[syfilisx]

I played two thunderous wraths in G-Guide version. I hated to see them in my opening seven without brainstorm, more so if grip was otherways fine. It gave some explosive reach, but making you use your mana when it came up from top of the deck didn't feel good and like Andrew has written in his UR primer, you don't want to make brainstorm work too much for you, since it already is doing huge work helping you not dying to flood.

But yeah, not to say that feeling when you put two thunderous wraths on top with brainstorm isn't pretty nice. You just feel that everything is going to be okay... Test them for yourself and see if they suit your playstyle.

Cheers,
Jani
UR brother from another mother

[Hof]

So syfilix did you try a UR Nivmagus deck with Young Pyromancer yet?

[syfilisx]

Haven't actually. I feel bad about playing Gitaxian probes and such and I do not have slots for 4 pyros as it is and 2 snapcasters feel like better lategame draws.
But I must test them in some playtest session and see if the list needs lots of adapting to them

[Heresy]

The deck's nightmare are creature heavy midrange matchups and removal is needed to clear blockers. What would you run in that meta? Your list with 3 Dismember?

[Neffy]

I know the different oppinions of Vexing Devil, but do anyone think that making a build of VD + unearth (grixis mana base) would lead anywhere?

No matter what, the Vexing Devil fits either the burn plan or the fast-beater role, so would it make sense to try and put VD back into play with unearth so opponent have to lose another 4 life or face the devil after all?

[KobeBryan]

I know the different oppinions of Vexing Devil, but do anyone think that making a build of VD + unearth (grixis mana base) would lead anywhere?

No matter what, the Vexing Devil fits either the burn plan or the fast-beater role, so would it make sense to try and put VD back into play with unearth so opponent have to lose another 4 life or face the devil after all?

The problem is what do you propose to take out?

[ivanpei]

What would you run in that meta? Your list with 3 Dismember?

In a midrange fest yes I would play my 3 Dismember UR list (with 4 Submerge in the board). Either that or maybe some type of combo (Storm) or control (Miracles).

Cutting probes really hasn't hurt me, my lines of play still remain similar with or without probes. Since you want to drop all your creatures ASAP and burn stuff up. I get less explosives Pyromancer hands, but having 1/2 tokens less does not really matter as much as staring at a Tarmogoyf/KOTR (no dismember) I can't kill or flooding.

[Ayotte]

My friend Kendrick got a deck tech with a U/R delver splashing niv magus & flusterstorm today. Thought you guys might be interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC0Jjt-99z4

[KobeBryan]

My friend Kendrick got a deck tech with a U/R delver splashing niv magus & flusterstorm today. Thought you guys might be interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC0Jjt-99z4

I actually really hate nivamus elemental. I rather just run snapcasters. Its too conditional and the only card I really want to exile is flusterstorm. I don't really want ot exile my counters or my bolts.

And 16 lands? dayam.

[Asthereal]

Without Wastelands, 16 lands seems fine to me.
I feel the Clout is pretty terrible though. I guess that should be one additional guy and one additional burn.

[syfilisx]

I have been playing pretty similar list with 17 lands for long time, you occassionally get 0 landers, so I have been feeling like not going to 16.

Clout is fine as long as there is no Liliana in your near future, you just have to draw them into same hand with Delver or Nivmagus, since they are not very nice topdecks late in game, I made top8 of Finlands biggest Legacy tournament with two Clouts, but have been riding without them since and being playing Diverts on side because they do more things and flip delvers. Not gonna start about mising away games where I need two damage and topdeck a grim Lavamancer in the hand with to this point totally useless Clout and haste Mancer for win, because that's just not real life.

Also playing two maindeck stifles for keeping people at their toes and stifling all kind of important things like Liliana -2 or Mystic Triggers. Cannot say that if I have big Magus beating and stifling their second turn fetch means postponing Decay & Liliana by full turns that I won't do that too.

Grats for Top16 placing with Nivmagus.

Cheers
Jani

[Ayotte]

I've gotten wrecked by Clout so many times I'm convinced it's great.

[nodahero]

LOL I have never had Kendrick wreck me with Clout...

All it has done is pitch to Force against me although given my addiction to combo (and sneak and show as of late) what else would it likely do?

Either way congrats to Kendrick.

[Ayotte]

Well no shit; it's not meant to beat sneak and show..

[nodahero]

LOL I know. Either way it makes me smirk every time it pitches to Force.

[Neffy]

I am considering going UR delver to a tourny tonight, but im not incredibly experienced with the deck, so I would appreciate any suggestions or help you guys might have:

MD
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
2 Chain Lightning
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Price of Progress
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will

SB
2 Electrickery
2 Pyroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Price of Progress
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Submerge

Vortex is for griselbrands, jittes, batterskulls.
Electrickery I am not sure about, but would help against elves and tokens where opponent have more dudes than I remove.
PoP is awesome and I like having a 3rd for extra damage against UWR delver, etc
Relic for RUG with Goyfs and Mongoose especially.

I am very fond of Zoo but have been having trouble everytime I face combo or miracles, so I was thinking that the fast damage of UR delver and supportive counterspells would be better for these matches.

Thanks!

[Mister Full-House]

We had big Italian legacy tournament this weekend with this prizes:

ur pyrodelver splits the finals with maverick. If anyone still suspects that Pyromancer is not a fifth member of 1C megacycle, well...

Main:
Creatures (15)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
Lands (18)

1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Spells (27)

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder


Sideboard

3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Electrickery
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Submerge

Hello, everyone. It was me, who piloted this deck to the finals in Milano, hope it is not too late for a small summary.

I got pretty lucky in match-ups, as I played against blue decks and combo mostly - 2 Merfok, 1 BUG Agent, 1 BUG Aggro, 3 Storm combo (one loss), 1 RUG Pyromancer and 1 Solidarity, the other decks were Mono-R stompy and Jund. The worst match-ups for this build are probably Death and Taxes, Miracles and Jund decks.

Before Ovino I playtested this deck heavily, here are few things I want to mention based upon my experience:

1. The removal pakage is fine, though it may seem reasonable to add Chain Lightnings instead of Probes. I decided to leave Probes for the Ovino as I expected a lot of combodecks. For the creature matches I left three Grim Lavamancer (those small wizards are really good right now with all that Shamans, Mystics, Strixes, Delvers e.t.c running around) and hoped it would be enough. I don't like Thunderous Wrath as it usually sits in a hand doing nothing until you topdeck a brainstorm or die trying.

2. Goblin Guide is probably the weakest card in here, but this deck really needs a fast cheap creature (delvers and mancers are not enough) to deliver damage before the middlegame. I tried almost all the possible variants during tests and left guides as a result. Nivmagus Elemental has to be played with Flusterstorm to become good (and I don't like Flusterstorms as it does not counter Walkers and other stuff), Vexing Devil can not be trusted as it becomes creature or burn depending on your opponent choice, Cosi's Trickster is just not that good. I was worried about Goblin Guide/Wasteland/Stifle problem, but it is the necessary evil for extra haste damage. And it does not punish you that bad because the deck can kill very quickly.

3. I also playtested Grixis builds with Dark Confidant, but it is way slower and can be damaged easily with opponent's Wastelands. The deck I played is wasteproof with 2 basics and 4 stifles to protect the manabase. It also sometimes shows very highspeed hands with multiply guides and delvers during first three turns easing extra land drawback.

4. I can not play Snapcaster Mage with 18 lands (taking into account wastelands) and grim lavamancers. Snapcasters are good in traditional UR Delver lists, which run Price of Progress and have more stable manabase. Those lists however are not good against Mirracles, while list with Stifles can better struggle against it (though match-up against Mirracles is still very tough).

5. Speaking about sideboard - one of the four blasts can easily be cut out to add extra card against bad match-ups (third Electrickery against D&T/Maverick, Sulfuric Vortex/Pithing Needle against Mirracles or something else). Other that that I do not know what to cut, all other cards look solid to me.

Anyway the deck is really good in correct meta and I enjoyed it a lot during testing and Ovino tournament (hope the video replays of games in top8 - top4 will be available soon).
All that is written above is my own opinion based upon the experience I got with this deck.

Vladimir

[diego1985]

I think that wasteland/stifle and price of progress can not coexist because they are part of different philosophies of play.

In relation to this I play two different lists:

1) Very similar a Vladimir's list
UR Tempyro

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Electrickery
1 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Submerge


2) Hot Delver

3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Fireblast
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

Sideboard
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Surgical Extraction

What do you think?

[Neffy]

I like the last list.
How is fireblast working out for you? Im not sure whether to run it or thund. wrath or both. (atm 1 wrath, 2 fireblast).

I like having wrath as they almost always can take care of a goyf that is in the way.

[diego1985]

I use fireblast as finisher with Pop. I add 2 mana, sacrifice 2 lands and I play a fireblast. than I play pop whit a mana added.. is possible to make 8-10 deals...

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[Neffy]

I use fireblast as finisher with Pop. I add 2 mana, sacrifice 2 lands and I play a fireblast. than I play pop whit a mana added.. is possible to make 8-10 deals...

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Running 18 lands or?

[diego1985]

yes 18 lands.. 10 fetch, 4 base land and 4 duals

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[Neffy]

Last night I took these 75 to a 16man double-fee event:

1 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
2 Chain Lightning
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
2 Price of Progress
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
1 Fireblast
2 Thunderous Wrath

2 Electrickery
2 Flusterstorm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Submerge

R1 reanimator
G1 i have early GG and I think delver. I counter his attempt to reanimate. G2 I cast early sulfuric vortex and it beats him down quickly alongside delver and all my burn.
1-0

R2 Jund
having played jund a while I know this deck quite well. I summon early pressure and fireblast make quick work of him. G2 he gets down early deathrite and goyfs and I have to trade my dudes to them. Deathrite was a pain, but i failed to draw bolt or such. G3 I remember him playing t1 deathrite, I ponder, and see second daze and submerge and spell pierce. I keep submerge and puts his dude on top (great feeling right there!). He relays it and says go. Im 1000 years to find creatures but eventually get out grim lavamancer and goblin guide. At some point I miracle into wrath, then go. He casts 3rd goyf attacks with two and I have to block, block and shoot with Grim. Then fireblast him to death.
2-0

R3 UWR
This matchup is a nightmare?! I go double delver and they get bolt+sword. He wastes me and I cant come back. I think i won G2 with dudes. G3 i keep killer red hand with 1 mountain, ponder and snap. shouldn't have.. I never draw another land and GG just goes farming..
2-1

R4 Storm
G1 he is down to 2 and suddenly makes 14 goblins. I miss a bolt here. G2 i go turn 1 delver and he goes turn one kill.. Had no force in hand. Actually Ad nauseam got him down to 1 without having any petals to generate mana (he already played land) so has to continue digging. The next card is a Lotus Petal!! :mad:
2-2

R5 OmniShow
I try and counter he he has more counters than me and kills with grape shot. G2 I got him down to 9 with delver and triple bolt him but he counters one and emrakul shows up.
2-3

So great start, but luck suddenly turned. But I had some great plays which I learned a lot from. MVP was fireblast and wrath.
Im thinking of going 2/2 with these by cutting 1 snapcaster as they often just sat in my hand looking slow.
Thanks for reading.

[Heresy]

Is this the sturdy 3 drop we've all been waiting for?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147182&d=1381961030

[.Ix]

Count me out. I don't want a 3 drop.

[Rocco111]

Neffy: nice list, too bad you couldn't finish off the Storm.deck though. Always frustrating these MUs when they are potentially dead on bolt but you don't have it. :wink:
Regarding Patriot, the MU is tough, it's true, but imho UR Delver is better: You have more burn spells than him, even to more counterspells and if you manage to counter Geist, his means of victory are really slower than you. Plus PoP is quite often a huge threat to him (playing Tundras, Volc and Plateaux... he's exposed to take a lot on the first PoP coming or to waste himself). True thing though, Stifle and Wastelands are the things to be careful about when playing against this deck. :wink:

About the Nemesis, I don't think UR Delver wants this kind of creature. CCM3 is already a pain and if any, for this price, I'd rather play Clique over this one (despite its own awesomeness, that is).

m2c

[Neffy]

Neffy: nice list, too bad you couldn't finish off the Storm.deck though. Always frustrating these MUs when they are potentially dead on bolt but you don't have it. :wink:
Regarding Patriot, the MU is tough, it's true, but imho UR Delver is better: You have more burn spells than him, even to more counterspells and if you manage to counter Geist, his means of victory are really slower than you. Plus PoP is quite often a huge threat to him (playing Tundras, Volc and Plateaux... he's exposed to take a lot on the first PoP coming or to waste himself). True thing though, Stifle and Wastelands are the things to be careful about when playing against this deck. :wink:

About the Nemesis, I don't think UR Delver wants this kind of creature. CCM3 is already a pain and if any, for this price, I'd rather play Clique over this one (despite its own awesomeness, that is).

m2c

Yes that was a pain in the a. Even his gobbos wasnt a problem for one turn for me to draw something, but just couldnt. The geist killed me game one. I tried to block one with GG, but he just plays another one second main.. I also guess storm shouldnt be that hard?

[JDK]

UR Delver lacks a resilient creature like Nimble Mongoose, so I wouldn't dismiss True-Identity-Nemesis so easily, despite it being a 3-Drop. Sure, it works better in a Blade-Shell (UW/r is going to be nuts), but even as an nearly unkillable 3/1 it's going to win you lots of games. Don't forget it's unblockable.

It sure as hell needs testing and I wouldn't be surprised if black decks start packing (more) engineered plagues.

[SirTylerGalt]

For those playing Young Pyromancer and/or Nivmagus Elemental, have you considered Ensnare against creature matchups? It's a "free" spell that lets you tap all creatures during your opponent's beginning combat phase (or EOT if you are not worried about his attack, but are worried he will play creatures post-combat). It generates Elemental tokens, and adds to Storm to play a big Flusterstorm later during his turn to boost your Elemental. You can then attack with all your creatures while your opponent's creatures are tapped out.

You can also play it for free and eat it with Nivmagus if you don't need the tap effect, generating tokens in the process.

It's also great in response to a Wasteland, or to bounce back non-basic lands before a lethal Price of Progress.

Credit to David Gearhart and his friends for the tech: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_uwr_delver_with_davi.html

[Neffy]

Quick question:

Would you keep a hand like this, against an unknown deck or average deck in your meta:

land
land
land
spell pierce
snapcaster mage
lightning bolt
daze

I got this hand and was really unsure. It lacks explosive power, it does however have early removal and counter, and also a slow dude for attacking. Too many lands and no cantrips or fast dudes though. (For reference my list is posted in my report a few threads above)

[Tanith]

Well you say everything in this sentence: "It lacks explosive power (...). Too many lands and no cantrips or fast dudes though."
Personally I wouldn't keep a hand w/o goblin or delver (or both). Ok, there are situations in which you kept a hand full of counters, but only because you know what are facing.

[Rocco111]

As Tanith said, you kinda replied your own question already, especially when you mentioned "unknown deck".
You need a threat to put T1 on the board, no matter which one. Even though, it is clear that Delver or Guide will always prevail when compared to Lavamancer. :wink:

@H3llsp4n: I don't always agree with you but on this one, you are totally right, imho (especially in a Blade-shell).

[KobeBryan]

Quick question:

Would you keep a hand like this, against an unknown deck or average deck in your meta:

land
land
land
spell pierce
snapcaster mage
lightning bolt
daze

I got this hand and was really unsure. It lacks explosive power, it does however have early removal and counter, and also a slow dude for attacking. Too many lands and no cantrips or fast dudes though. (For reference my list is posted in my report a few threads above)

Hell no i would not keep that hand. Its slow as hell, no clock, and no cantrips.

You may be able to slow down combo decks for a few turns, but that is it.

[JDK]

I got pretty lucky in match-ups
That's pretty much the best summary of the list. ^^

No offense, I've just seen the semi-finals of the event and you played it perfectly, but the deck is just prey for Miracles and it's really a wonder you didn't have to play against it. No Vortex in the sideboard was just another "YOLO"-decision in my opinion.

Anyway, congrats to you and your Russian mate!

[Richard Cheese]

Count me out. I don't want a 3 drop.

Snapcaster is a 3-drop 80% of the time in this deck, so mana really shouldn't be the issue. The question is really whether it can change the mid-game dynamic against opponent's who have stabilized. It can't really help against an active Jitte or Batterskull on it's own, but it can get past a wall of blockers or hold the ground while Delver swings in the air. Seems worth testing for sure.

[.Ix]

Snapcaster is a 3-drop 80% of the time in this deck, so mana really shouldn't be the issue. The question is really whether it can change the mid-game dynamic against opponent's who have stabilized. It can't really help against an active Jitte or Batterskull on it's own, but it can get past a wall of blockers or hold the ground while Delver swings in the air. Seems worth testing for sure.

Snapcaster is 95% a 3-drop for me in any deck, but I don't run Snapcaster in this one. I run an aggro build similar to ivanpei's, with 4 guide, 4 delver, 4 pyromancer, 2 grim. 3 mana is not what I want to spend on my threats. I might change my mind if I ever get to testing it, but at this point I don't feel the need for it at all.

[Neffy]

Snapcaster is 95% a 3-drop for me in any deck, but I don't run Snapcaster in this one. I run an aggro build similar to ivanpei's, with 4 guide, 4 delver, 4 pyromancer, 2 grim. 3 mana is not what I want to spend on my threats. I might change my mind if I ever get to testing it, but at this point I don't feel the need for it at all.

Would you mind sharing your list? I would like to see how you build your spells up around that creature base. :)

[.Ix]

This is what I've been running. Still testing Reforge the Soul in the maindeck.


4 Young Pyromancer
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Reforge the Soul
2 Misdirection
2 Forked Bolt

2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Island

[blindspotxxx]

Is this the sturdy 3 drop we've all been waiting for?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147182&d=1381961030

Huge upgrade!

[JDK]

This is what I've been running. Still testing Reforge the Soul in the maindeck.


4 Young Pyromancer
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Reforge the Soul
2 Misdirection
2 Forked Bolt

2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Island

Reforge the Soul is just not good. Why would you play such situational and clunky cards? It's basically card-disadvantage if it's in your first nine cards and when you play it you lose a full turn of aggression.

Young Pyromancer is also kinda like a 3-Drop, unless you want to run it into the next best removal without getting value or have Daze/FoW available. The combination of Pyromancer, Reforge and 17 lands is also kinda risky, when you want to be able to cast those spells reliably. You also want to be able to cast a cantrip in addition to something else.

[.Ix]

Reforge the Soul is just not good. Why would you play such situational and clunky cards? It's basically card-disadvantage if it's in your first nine cards and when you play it you lose a full turn of aggression.

Yeah, it's under testing. When I get to play it, it basically wins me the game, and lets me get back in a game I was losing. When I draw it early, I'm happy to Brainstorm it back into my deck. The 2 Reforge would have taken a land slot and maybe a Pierce in other builds, so it would not have been aggression anyway. I'm fully aware of the drawbacks of the card, because I'm testing it.



Young Pyromancer is also kinda like a 3-Drop, unless you want to run it into the next best removal without getting value or have Daze/FoW available. The combination of Pyromancer, Reforge and 17 lands is also kinda risky, when you want to be able to cast those spells reliably. You also want to be able to cast a cantrip in addition to something else.

Pyromancer is not something I force value out of. If he gives me creatures, great. If he gets killed without giving me a creature, that's fine.

17 lands has been fine. I don't run Wastelands, so I can reliably have 3 mana by turn 3-4. I don't run Stifles or any one mana counters game 1, so I don't need to keep mana up. 17 is easily enough for my build.

[JDK]

When I draw it early, I'm happy to Brainstorm it back into my deck.
When you have Reforge early (about every fourth to third game), it's a dead card. Having Brainstorm happens about every second game, both combined is obviously less likely.
It also makes your opening hands/mulligan decisions worse. Eventually you will come to the same conclusion, but at least you are testing cards yourself.

Investing two mana into Pyromancer without getting value is also not where you want to be with this deck.

[.Ix]

When you have Reforge early (about every fourth to third game), it's a dead card. Having Brainstorm happens about every second game, both combined is obviously less likely.
It also makes your opening hands/mulligan decisions worse. Eventually you will come to the same conclusion, but at least you are testing cards yourself.


Maybe. The spell certainly isn't that powerful in some matchups, but it also breaks some in half. I will keep testing it in the main for now. Had a lot of matches with this deck just now, actually, but I never drew it.



Investing two mana into Pyromancer without getting value is also not where you want to be with this deck.

Don't get me wrong - I usually get tokens out of him. I only run him out on 2 mana when I have free counters (I run 10), or when I really need a threat on board and I have nothing better to cast. YP usually comes out at 3 mana without any effort on my part, anyway.

[diego1985]

I prefer tolarian wind... is better in all function...

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[.Ix]

I prefer tolarian wind... is better in all function...

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What? I don't think you understand what Reforge the Soul does. It draws 7 when you don't have a hand. Tolarian Winds gets you nothing.

[KobeBryan]

What? I don't think you understand what Reforge the Soul does. It draws 7 when you don't have a hand. Tolarian Winds gets you nothing.

Reforge actually nets you more cards than your opponent most of the time. I've been running it as a 1 of. I won't draw it, but if i do, it get to refill my hand.

reforge has actually won me games where I had no business of winning when the opponent has stablized the board.

[.Ix]

Reforge actually nets you more cards than your opponent most of the time. I've been running it as a 1 of. I won't draw it, but if i do, it get to refill my hand.

reforge has actually won me games where I had no business of winning when the opponent has stablized the board.

Yeah exactly. Running it as a 1-of game 1 is probably a good call.

[KobeBryan]

to the people who play guide and price

why do you guys run 4 dazes? Its actually counter productive and makes the dazes useless after turn 2-3

[Neffy]

to the people who play guide and price

why do you guys run 4 dazes? Its actually counter productive and makes the dazes useless after turn 2-3

I run both, full playset.

Goblin guide helps PoP to do more damage.
The dazes are most of the time just there to keep my opponent from casting creatures the first two turns. Later it pitches to force. However daze can help against wastelands and make your PoP hit for less damage to yourself.
For the fast UR delver GGs are a fast clock and you dont really care for the potential land they get to put into the hand. I havent had many games where daze were useless because of GG.

[diego1985]

Hi

today I have played this list in a local turnament
[deck]
1 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Electrickery
1 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Submerge
[deck/]

WIN
BUG DELVER 2-0
MIRACLE 2-0
GOBLIN 2-1
CANADIAN 2-0

LOSS
UWr control 0-2
Merkfol 0-2

+
stifle and waste vs canadian and bug are a win condition. wonderfull
electrikery vs goblin is terrible

-
ee and counterbalance are a terrible card for this deck. i loss 2 game because after that this card come in play i am totaly enable to destroy it...

its necessary a solution for enchantment :mad:


Inviato dal mio GT-S7500 con Tapatalk 2

[Rocco111]

I am not sure I get your point with Counterbalance. It is indeed a huge pain in the butt to deal with if it touches the board, definitely. But honestly, vs Miracle, you have to counter it. There's no way around it. Because once it is on the board, you have (almost) no chance of getting rid of it once the lock CB/SdT is in place.

EE? You meant Engineering Explosives? Can't be that much of troubles for you, can it? You pack both Stifle and Smash to Smithereens so that should be enough to go through it, no?

Maybe replacing Electrickery by another more expensive boardsweeper like Pyroclasm or Volcanic Fallout would help, at the cost of cleaning your own board too... I mean looking at your MUs, I doubt that it did you good anyways. ;)

[blindspotxxx]

The old build is definitely still the best build for U/R Delver :) There was a deck that made 7-1 or 8-0 at the invitational of SCG.

[Neffy]

The old build is definitely still the best build for U/R Delver :) There was a deck that made 7-1 or 8-0 at the invitational of SCG.

Are there any decklist? I cant find any UR.

[TazBuche]

U/R Delver
Richard McCombs

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Stifle

Sorceries
2 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
3 Ponder

Lands
4 Island
4 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Flusterstorm
1 Price of Progress
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction

[Neffy]

Sorceries
2 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
3 Ponder


Have some of you tried Forked Bolt? Is it good enough? I know RUG use to run 1 and i can imagine it being good against lingering souls or D&T? Not sure though.

I am also considering Magma Jet as a 1 or 2 off, maybe reducing the number of Chain lightnings, as it gives great value in digging for the next turns draw. It really helps the deck getting around the draws of additional, useless lands, and still burns well (DRS, SFM, Agent..)
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ths/128.jpg

Another card that might be interesting is Cascade Bluffs. I have seen filter lands in Jund, so maybe it could also work here. Perhaps as replacement for 1 volcanic island. I sometimes sit with hands that lack one of the other colors and this land could help out?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/eve/175.jpg

[JDK]

Hi

today I have played this list in a local turnament
[deck]
1 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Electrickery
1 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Submerge
[deck/]

WIN
BUG DELVER 2-0
MIRACLE 2-0
GOBLIN 2-1
CANADIAN 2-0

LOSS
UWr control 0-2
Merkfol 0-2

+
stifle and waste vs canadian and bug are a win condition. wonderfull
electrikery vs goblin is terrible

-
ee and counterbalance are a terrible card for this deck. i loss 2 game because after that this card come in play i am totaly enable to destroy it...

its necessary a solution for enchantment :mad:


Inviato dal mio GT-S7500 con Tapatalk 2

This list begs to get ripped apart by Miracles and whatnot. If you want to do anything about it, at least play 2-3 Sulfuric Vortex in the Sideboard. That's what you get for netdecking.

[diego1985]

I ll try this solution although I hope not to meet otger miracle

-2 eletrickey +2 sulfuric

Inviato dal mio GT-S7500 con Tapatalk 2

[JDK]

Another card that might be interesting is Cascade Bluffs. I have seen filter lands in Jund, so maybe it could also work here. Perhaps as replacement for 1 volcanic island. I sometimes sit with hands that lack one of the other colors and this land could help out?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/eve/175.jpg

Replace WHAT?

Jund has one of the worst manabases you can find in Legacy, don't try to copy things if you only play two colors! Why would you even want to replace Volcanic with a filterland? Volcanic makes both colors on its own, Bluffs cannot produce colored mana without a second land, so that's already a no-go. You play so many fetchlands to get the lands you need, there really is no need for a filterland, which is there to help 3+ colored decks to play cards with strict mana requirements.

[ivanpei]

Anyone considered Figure of Destiny instead of Gobling Guide in a more mana denial version of the deck? For example, with a full stifle, wasteland & daze mana denial package. Or is it simply too slow? I like how Figure can grow EOT so that your mana doesn't go to waste. A 4/4 later in the game is nothing to scoff at especially since it's the "just big enough" size. It's bigger than Delver, Mongoose and the other 3/3 or smaller creatures in the format.

[JDK]

Try growing it with the Wasteland-manabase. It's just not aggressive enough and still loses to every 2/x dork and whatnot. Even Nivmagus Elemental would suit the deck better than Figure.

[ivanpei]

Yeah scratch that. Tried it, way too mana inefficient. Just have to live with guide. I cringe whenever guide flips a land, but there really isn't any other creature that is as aggressive as guide.

[Kl'rt]

U/R Delver
Richard McCombs

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Stifle

Sorceries
2 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
3 Ponder

Lands
4 Island
4 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Flusterstorm
1 Price of Progress
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction

Looks like compared to Andrew's list, aside from replacing some fetches and duals with basics, and upping PoP count, the other major difference is replacing Spell Pierce with Stifle. Anyone have any idea what the reason for using Stifle in this deck is for?

[diego1985]

is for bloca first/ second fatch of oppo.

vs canadian I play in 5 turn 2 stifle on fatch and 2 wasteland and my oppo dont play any spell in 9 turn... i win 2-0 very very easy...i think that 3x stifle is a great solution

Inviato dal mio GT-S7500 con Tapatalk 2

[ivanpei]

Stifle ups the blue count, and is basically land destruction. It's sometimes very good, and sometimes a terrible topdeck. However along with Daze and wasteland, it makes a good mana denial package. Of course I don't play maindeck Price of Progress. I feel Price of Progress should be a sideboard card because it doesn't do that much against simple manabases.

[Megadeus]

I mean its almost never completely dead though. And just wins games vs other decks.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I feel like Price of Progress is the main reason to play this deck.

[KobeBryan]

chaos;761822']I feel like Price of Progress is the main reason to play this deck.

oh it is...oh it is.

[Kl'rt]

Stifle ups the blue count, and is basically land destruction. It's sometimes very good, and sometimes a terrible topdeck. However along with Daze and wasteland, it makes a good mana denial package. Of course I don't play maindeck Price of Progress. I feel Price of Progress should be a sideboard card because it doesn't do that much against simple manabases.

Ok yes, Stifle is usually for land destruction, but McComb's deck does not look like a land destruction one: no Wastelands and 3 Price of Progress main deck. That being said, why would Stifle be used in a deck without Wastelands and with Price of Progress?

[Neffy]

Miracle and UWR matchups seems to be a bit difficult; do you think this dude could help, maybe as a 1of in the SB?
It makes our clock even faster, especially combined with vortex and he beats well. The 3 mana is of course not the greatest for the deck, but then again - snapcasters cost 3 almost everytime too.
EDIT: seems decent against omnishow and high tide as well.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/m14/146.jpg

[ivanpei]

In a deck with no wastelands and runs price of Progress, stifle shouldn't be there. You have to pick a plan. Either stifles and wastelands or price or progress and more basics.

A 3/2 with stapled on shock per spell doesn't look that scary honestly. I'd rather have Snapcaster at 3cc. Flashing back a stifle or spell pierce can be gamebreaking.

[Hof]

In a deck with no wastelands and runs price of Progress, stifle shouldn't be there. You have to pick a plan. Either stifles and wastelands or price or progress and more basics.

What if we look at it this way:
Stifle could prevent some fetching of basic lands, and as a result the opponent could be forced to play nonbasic lands from hand, rather than shuffle them away.

[kombatkiwi]

What if we look at it this way:
Stifle could prevent some fetching of basic lands, and as a result the opponent could be forced to play nonbasic lands from hand, rather than shuffle them away.


That's like saying you should wasteland an opponents white sources and then thoughtseize their green cards so they can't play any spells. Yes, in clutch situations this might be a good idea, but why are you playing both of these cards in a tempo shell in the first place?

Do you want them to have a lot of nonbasics in play and then PoP them to death? Or do you want them to have no mana for spells? You can't have both, pick one

[JDK]

Miracle and UWR matchups seems to be a bit difficult; do you think this dude could help, maybe as a 1of in the SB?
It makes our clock even faster, especially combined with vortex and he beats well. The 3 mana is of course not the greatest for the deck, but then again - snapcasters cost 3 almost everytime too.
EDIT: seems decent against omnishow and high tide as well.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/m14/146.jpg

Why not just play more Vortex?

[Megadeus]

Agreed. Vortez is really hard for them to remove.

[Neffy]

I already play two vortexes, and they board in disenchant. Or still just make 4 angels at 6 life and beat me..
Its difficult to get past the top/CB combo if you dont have pyroblast or more counter than them.
I was thinking that this could support them, by hitting for more each turn. every damage point counts, so if they StP it, so be it. That just means a delver lives to fight.

[JDK]

You know they have more ways to remove creatures than they have to remove Vortex, right?

[Neffy]

I do yes. If we're talking miracles. Just that that more creatures would be helpful, and since Im not fond of snapcaster and I value early and quick damage I thought this could work.

[Megadeus]

Snapcaster is just so much better. Not only is the damage more guaranteed, he also can be a much less narrow card in other matches like flashing back a spell pierce

[lavafrogg]

New to the thread and can't find anything on izzet charm; is it just too slow for the more mid range lists?

[syfilisx]

New to the thread and can't find anything on izzet charm; is it just too slow for the more mid range lists?
It's Spell Pierce for 2 mana, Kills Deathrite which needs to be killed with this deck, looting helps when flooding out bad.
I have myself tested one in past, every mode is useful, but I don't know if the two mana for those efects and the fact it doesn't go to upstairs if needed is why people don't play it.

[lavafrogg]

At that point don't you just filter for burn or action? At the point where you need burn you will no longer need spare lands so trading them out for action seems like the tits.

Obviously in the faster lists it matters but in anything but pure has I would think it would see play.

[warfordium]

tried the Kendrick Lentini list tonight at my $10 weekly. was intrigued by the inclusion of Nivmagus Elemental. played this deck in summer 2012 for a bit (see report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22676-Deck-U-R-Delver&p=653260&viewfull=1#post653260)).

i had some really clunky openers with the deck. had to keep 4 land, brainstorm, 4 fetch on the play in one game, for example; a naked Nivmagus without protection feels terrible. managed some nice plays (dazed a bolt, exiled the daze to pump elemental, swish!), but wasn't a fan of the card overall. i like this deck as counter-burn. missed the extra ponders, missed the spell pierces, missed the extra main deck price of progress, missed snapcaster, etc.

probably will shelve it for the time being to get some storm training in but i'd go back to the snapcaster build and include vapour snags to deal with goyfs. this deck is still waiting for the replacement for Goblin Guide as far as i'm concerned.

i think the UWr is the strongest delver list out there right now—full tempo package and the stoneforge package plus geist for fast clock and a decent long game.

[lavafrogg]

Isn't RUG the strongest delver deck?

I think ur can be faster or slower depending on the build but if you want to play straight tempo delver, RUG is the way to go.

[syfilisx]

warfordium:
I like the play of bolting my opponents guy in response to wastelanding me, dazing the bolt and exiling the daze with Nivmagus, so saving my land from waste. That feels like magic.
I having played Nivmagus list a lot and have had some success with it, I would very much like to see your list, since I have made myself so, that I still have my burn, not gone full Nivmagus with all suboptimal spells, since I don't feel like that's way to go.

[warfordium]

I would very much like to see your list

I linked my list from last summer in the post. Here is the Kendrick Lentini list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59860).

[syfilisx]

Thank you. I meant Kendrick Lentinis Nivmagus list, didn't occur to me that I could just google it.
This is the list I played before: Decklist (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5034&d=229041)
I have now cut Clouts, Vendilion Clique and second mountain and play 3 Price of Progress main, along with few other changes.

I have yet to test Young Pyromancer, but I think it's less good topdeck than Snapcaster and I don't like playing gitaxian probes. Also I find that 3 dazes is enough since even if good with elemental, it loses a lot of actual countering value fast since I don't play wasteland. I play two stifles though for moment, but I have plans to change that soon.

Edit. Don't know why I didn't post update list straight here, maybe I wanted to boast with Mtgtop8 entry ;)
Lands: 17
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures 13
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

Sorcery 6
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

Instant 23
4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Price of Progress
2 Stifle

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Divert
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Shattering Spree
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Forked Bolt

Thinking about playing two True Name Nemesis

[Megadeus]

Why does everyone hate Goblin Guide so much in this thread? The amount of times that I have seen a guide deal 6 damage for 1 mana is ridiculous.

[syfilisx]

Why does everyone hate Goblin Guide so much in this thread? The amount of times that I have seen a guide deal 6 damage for 1 mana is ridiculous.
Don't hate the guide, just didn't get any results with it anymore around here, so I adapted. But yeah, he's getting bashed around here pretty much. But must admit that he's less good for us than for burn.

[Megadeus]

Meh. This is burn. WIth force of will and brainstorm... If you have a Dlever and a Guide on T1 you play the guide and battle. Get more aggressive!

[JDK]

Osyp Lebedowicz just made it to the finals of the Eternal Weekend's Legacy Championship playing a tempo list with Nemesis (most likely just instead of Goblin Guide).

[ivanpei]

Sounds terrible. We have no midrange game and without guide, this deck is nowhere as aggressive. Playing like 1-2 TNN in addition to guides and delver is fine but TNN should not replace our broken 1 drops.

[mishima_kazuya]

Its a very different approach compared to UR Delver Burn.

Basically it takes the RUG/UWR Delver plan of mana screwing your opponents, but it instead only plays two colors, thus making it resilient against opposing Wastelands.

[Sasan]

is there a list somewhere?

[blindspotxxx]

Unfortunately no decklists yet... and the coverage is done. How crappy!

[JDK]

Its a very different approach compared to UR Delver Burn.

Basically it takes the RUG/UWR Delver plan of mana screwing your opponents, but it instead only plays two colors, thus making it resilient against opposing Wastelands.

That's why I said "tempo list".
There've been these Stifle + Wasteland build for a couple of weeks/months now.

[Qtc]

is there a list somewhere?

Osyp Lebedowicz
Eternal Championships - Legacy
2nd
365 players


Creature [12]
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Young Pyromancer
Instant [22]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
Sorcery [8]
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
Land [18]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
60 cards

[blindspotxxx]

Sorry lol didn't notice someone posted the decklist already 10 mins before I posted mine.

So U/R Delver with less burn.. Are we now better off with the Tempo Shell or the Burn shell?

[RedVelvet]

Blood moon just seems insane against shardless or any of the 3 color delver decks with no basics

[Megadeus]

Doesn't seem like the worst plan vs RUG. The issue is, how do you drop it before they drop goose or Goyf?

[Neffy]

Yesterday I had the pleasure of playtesting against Osyps list and whereas the stifles did nothing for my opponent and he lacked burn compared to my aggressive UR, TNN was insanely annoying. Especially if he had tokens back to block.
That equals a lightning bolt to the face every turn that you can do nothing against. (in many cases, that is)
EDIT: Using him as an excellent blocker against batterskull and jitte creatures helps a great deal against lifelink which is the bane in many cases for this deck.

I came to the conclusion that TNN might be a ncie addition to our creaturebase after all, not replacing but in addition, as it really gives reliable damage. It is, as discussed, an issue with the CMC3 but i think that getting him down secures that we dont get to the late game and we dont get stalled, which is quite possible against Goyfs, tokens, other TNN, etc. My creature package will end up something like this:

4 Delver
4 GG
2 Grim
2 YP
2 TNN

I only want a maximum of 2 so i dont see multiples on the starting 7, or any at all. I want to draw into it.
Has anybody else had any experience with this guy yet?

[Ruta Barracuda]

Well, if True-Name Nemesis really becomes a thing, expect to see more Engineered Plague, Toxic Deluge, and possibly Black Sun's Zenith in sideboards, as those will be best ways to deal with him outside of countering it or removing it from your hand before you can cast it.

[CabalTherapy]

Sorry to disturb the discussion about TNN and I am not really sure if this post belongs in here but I would like to read some comments on this UWR list. There is not a living thread about it so I thought that I will share it with you here.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
1 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Ponder
3 Force of Will
2 Vapor Snag/Path to Exile (which one is better here?)

19 lands consisting of some duals, basics and 11 fetch lands.

[JDK]

Use this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23241-R-u-x-Blue-Sligh

[grixis]

Osyp Lebedowicz
Eternal Championships - Legacy
2nd
365 players


Creature [12]
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Young Pyromancer
Instant [22]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
Sorcery [8]
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
Land [18]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
60 cards


18 lands to play nemesis ???

nemesis can be play on tempo deck ??? whereas it cost 2 blue....

[CabalTherapy]

Use this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23241-R-u-x-Blue-Sligh

Thanks for the link. I have totally forgotten that I play Modern and this comprehensive and recent thread is a resource to a plethora of information about this deck.

[SirTylerGalt]

Thanks for the link. I have totally forgotten that I play Modern and this comprehensive and recent thread is a resource to a plethora of information about this deck.

I think he meant this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23209-R-u-x-Blue-Sligh

They both show up in a Google search, and have the exact same name and author... But one is for Modern, while the one you want is for Legacy.

[CabalTherapy]

I think he meant this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23209-R-u-x-Blue-Sligh

They both show up in a Google search, and have the exact same name and author... But one is for Modern, while the one you want is for Legacy.

I know this thread and therefore I wrote that there is not a "living" thread and I see my UWR list more as a Delver Burn with splash than Hanni's blue sligh.
Besides that I really would like to hear some comments on this deck and I of course apologize to anyone who thinks that this does not belong in here.

[Rafa.Osuna]

Hey guys, does anyone know the Osyp Lebedowicz's sideboard?

Thank you :)

[syfilisx]

Check mtgtop8, they have entry for event by now.

I myself cut -1 snapcaster, -1 nivmagus for two nemesis and went back to 18 lands, will tell you my impressions after jamming games

[JDK]

I think he meant this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23209-R-u-x-Blue-Sligh

They both show up in a Google search, and have the exact same name and author... But one is for Modern, while the one you want is for Legacy.
I just remembered Hanni was into this deck and searched it here, but yeah, I meant the Legacy one. :/

@CabalTherapy
Make a new thread, post in the UWR Delver thread or use Hanni's. This is definitely not the place for it.


Hey guys, does anyone know the Osyp Lebedowicz's sideboard?

Thank you :)

The list is on Daily MTG, do some research on your own.

[Lentini]

Hi all, Kendrick here. Glad to see some of you are experimenting with my list.
Feel free to ask any questions you have about the philosophies of the deck, or some of my inclusions/exclusions. I'd like to do a full write-up sometime but, to be honest, I'm not sure when I'd get around to it.

I'll address some specific comments that I noticed below. Current List is at the end of the post.



i had some really clunky openers with the deck. had to keep 4 land, brainstorm, 4 fetch on the play in one game, for example; a naked Nivmagus without protection feels terrible. managed some nice plays (dazed a bolt, exiled the daze to pump elemental, swish!), but wasn't a fan of the card overall. i like this deck as counter-burn. missed the extra ponders, missed the spell pierces, missed the extra main deck price of progress, missed snapcaster, etc.


Hi Warfordium.
What do you think could be done to decrease the likelihood of clunky openers? The example you gave was a land heavy hand and (with a land count of 16) I'm certainly not running too many lands. Are there any other examples of clunky openers besides land-count issues?
I have tried a more Snapcaster-centric build before. It's definitely a reasonable route to take. However, I really like how the current version can function effectively off 1-2 lands. This affords you many advantages, like being able to actively shuffle away your third land drop or always being able to empty your hand.
I am interested in possibly finding a place for Spell Pierce, but the maindeck seems too tight and it seems too low-impact to take up a sideboard slot. The fact that Flusterstorm has similar utility is also a knock against Spell Pierce.



I have yet to test Young Pyromancer, but I think it's less good topdeck than Snapcaster and I don't like playing gitaxian probes. Also I find that 3 dazes is enough since even if good with elemental, it loses a lot of actual countering value fast since I don't play wasteland. I play two stifles though for moment, but I have plans to change that soon.


Hi Syfilisx.
First, I think cutting (even the 4th copy of) Gitaxian Probe is a mistake. This deck changes plans constantly: sometimes it's right to go all-in on Nivmagus and combo them; sometimes you have to be a control deck and run them out of threats; sometimes you need to be a scrappy burn deck and send every card to the face. The information you gain from Probe is incredibly helpful, necessary even. It's not just a information enabler either; it has a number of other helpful properties like being a free sorcery to start a Daze/Flusterstorm chain.
On Daze: I do think it's reasonable to go to 3 Daze, but I like 4. My reason is that this deck make the game all about the early turns. Whether you are making a 10/11 Nivmagus, Clouting a Delver, or protecting a Pyromancer, they must interact now. If they don't interact, it's already over; if they do, then Daze has your back.


Thank you for your feedback!

Current list:

Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Nivmagus Elemental
3 Young Pyromancer

Lands (16)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

Spells (31)
1 Clout of the Dominus
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Clout of the Dominus
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Divert
1 Force of Will
2 Price of Progress
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Surgical Extraction

[why]

.

[karaxu]

Just got back from a 2nd place win out of 53 players from a local tournament here. Legacy Wars X (Philippines). I won a Tropical Island for my efforts.

I wanted to play a version of the deck with True Name Nemesis, but failed to get copies of it so I ran with this trusted build:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire/Ice

4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
2 Mountain
2 Island

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Price of Progress
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental

I didn't keep notes during the games so I will just post a list of my matchups.


R1: DnT 0-2 loss
R2: MBC 2-1 win
R3: OmniTell 2-0 win
R4: Elves 2-0 win
R5: Sneak Show 2-0 win
R6: Scapewish Nic Fit 2-1 win

Quarterfinals vs DeathBlade 2-0 win
Semis vs AnT 2-1 win
Finals vs Reanimator 1-2 loss

Props:
- Price of Progress for being an allstar!
- Good topdecks when I needed it! (usually for the last points of burn!)

Slops:
- Mulligan to hate only for it to be discarded
- Arriving late with a deck that was not yet "de-boarded" and sloppy shuffling during round1.

[Lentini]

Hey Kendrick.
I've been running a similar list you for quite a while (from your list: -3 Force -1 Volcanic -1 Clout +1 Lavamancer +1 Young Pyromancer +1 Price of Progress +1 Island +1 Mountain). It's been great for me- I have lost very few sanctioned matches with it and won quite a bit playing in local tournaments over the course of the summer. I definitely think it's the place to be.


Hey Why! Thanks for your response. I'm glad you are performing so well!


My forces are in the sideboard, which is largely a meta decision and I think it's often right. My sideboard has two cards you don't have: Sulfur Elemental and Smash to Smithereens. Both are fairly targeted (Elemental against Death and Taxes strategies and Smash against Stoneforge) and they've both been extremely impressive for me. I've been intending to try a one-of Blood Moon and True-Name Nemesis as board cards, but really haven't had the chance to test- they're at least worth considering.


I'm guessing that we have different local metagames. I wish I could cut Force; this deck loves to cast all its spells individually and every card counts. But there is simply too much combo in my area to play less than 2 Forces. I used to play Sulfur Elemental, but I have since swapped them for Pyrokinesis. I chose to do that to get a little more game against the other creature decks in the format, specifically Elves, Maverick, and Goblins. I feel like the D&T matchup favors us already so I'd trade percentage points there for points elsewhere. Smash and True-Name are definitely cards I am planning on testing in the future.


I understand Clout of the Dominus in theory, but don't think I can really get behind that inclusion. It's definitely an answer to removal, but it also opens you up to being blown out by removal. Where has the card been best for you? How often does it just pitch to Force of Will?


I don't think it opens you up to being blown out by removal as much as you might think. I find that Clout really presses the issue and requires that the opponent have the Swords/Bolt right away; which plays into our Dazes and Flusterstorms. Also, it's not too hard to play around a removal spell that you see with Probe: if you have no board presence they will usually feel safe to tap out for a turn 2 threat, and you can just shroud up on your turn by casting both a creature and Clout (if the creature is Nivmagus, you haven't lost any attacking turns). All that said, I think the route you are taking (just playing more threats) is reasonable. I just feel like the blue threats are much better at closing games so they are worth protecting. On pitching Clout to Force: I don't do it much, but there aren't many copies in the list. Generally, Clout is great early and weak late and I pitch it accordingly. It makes sense that the build with maindeck Forces can afford to play more situationally-powerful blue cards.


The only card I've really considered cutting recently is the fourth Nivmagus Elemental. The second one is rarely anywhere near as good as the first.


To be honest, I have never thought about going to 3 Nivmagus, but it's definitely worth thinking about. I find that having the first copy boosts your win ratio too much not to run 4. This might be another example of extra blue cards still being valuable for Force of Will.


For the other people in the thread, I want to advocate heavily for this version of UR Delver. I think the biggest point in the favor of this deck is the versatility that this list offers. A lot of the cards here play defense very well and it allows you to change plans to best suit the matchup and the current state of the game. I think Kendrick's list gives you a big edge over most combo and RUG Delver when compared to a traditional list at little cost in most other matchups.


Well said. This is exactly what I've been trying to portray; I wish I was this succinct in my Deck Tech!

-----

Next steps for me:

1. Test a more aggressive build: I've been meaning to try Goblin Guides over Young Pyromancer for awhile. I'm definitely tentative because YP is such a great backup plan. But that's just it: it feels like a backup plan. Lowering the curve even more could allow for more explosive flusterstorms and better 1-lander starting hands. It would be a more burn-centric build, with possibly 3 Price of Progress.

2. In the current list, revamp the sideboard. It seems that there are alot of great sideboard cards at 3 CMC (Sulfuric Vortex, True-Name). Could it be right to run an additional land in the side? Or do sideboarded games where you want those cards last long enough such that drawing the third land is not problematic?

[Neffy]

But do you guys think it's safe to run TNN in a tempo shell?

I would love to see it in UR with GG and delver and pyromancer, but would 3/4 be too much? I am thinking it as a 2-off as potential blocker and faster clock.
3 Mana is a bit meh though..

[UnderwaterGuy]

But do you guys think it's safe to run TNN in a tempo shell?

I would love to see it in UR with GG and delver and pyromancer, but would 3/4 be too much? I am thinking it as a 2-off as potential blocker and faster clock.
3 Mana is a bit meh though..

imo Goblin Guide and TNN don't go in the same decks. Guide is a 100% aggro creature while TNN is something new but definitely not aggro, in fact it's like a less aggressive Geist. They might both be playable in UR decks but I think there's a distinction in game plan between the all-in aggro+burn UR decks that want Goblin Guide and the less-burn, bigger threats UR decks that play TNN.

"UR Delver" decks come from two places as far as I can tell; burn + blue, or threshold - goyf/mongoose. Both of these result in a deck that would be called "UR Delver" but they're distinct and crossing the strategies of both would dilute a deck's effectiveness (imo). Personally I don't think I would ever play a Goblin Guide deck with spells that cost more than 1 or 2 mana.

[fdiv_bug]

But do you guys think it's safe to run TNN in a tempo shell?

I would love to see it in UR with GG and delver and pyromancer, but would 3/4 be too much? I am thinking it as a 2-off as potential blocker and faster clock.
3 Mana is a bit meh though..

Someone took 11th place at the Star City Games Open in Dallas yesterday with a True-Name Nemesis tempo build. The list is here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60564). He was running the merfolk alongside Young Pyromancer and Delver, but no Goblin Guide.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Someone took 11th place at the Star City Games Open in Dallas yesterday with a True-Name Nemesis tempo build. The list is here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60564). He was running the merfolk alongside Young Pyromancer and Delver, but no Goblin Guide.

I'm pretty sure this is the exact same list that got second at Legacy Champs.

[Star|Scream]

I'm pretty sure this is the exact same list that got second at Legacy Champs.

It does appear to be. A resolved deluge or a plague naming human or merfolk appears to ruin its day, though. I guess the strategy is to kill them before they get to that point.

[blindspotxxx]

Just got back from a 2nd place win out of 53 players from a local tournament here. Legacy Wars X (Philippines). I won a Tropical Island for my efforts.

I wanted to play a version of the deck with True Name Nemesis, but failed to get copies of it so I ran with this trusted build:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire/Ice

4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
2 Mountain
2 Island

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Price of Progress
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental

I didn't keep notes during the games so I will just post a list of my matchups.


R1: DnT 0-2 loss
R2: MBC 2-1 win
R3: OmniTell 2-0 win
R4: Elves 2-0 win
R5: Sneak Show 2-0 win
R6: Scapewish Nic Fit 2-1 win

Quarterfinals vs DeathBlade 2-0 win
Semis vs AnT 2-1 win
Finals vs Reanimator 1-2 loss

Props:
- Price of Progress for being an allstar!
- Good topdecks when I needed it! (usually for the last points of burn!)

Slops:
- Mulligan to hate only for it to be discarded
- Arriving late with a deck that was not yet "de-boarded" and sloppy shuffling during round1.

Congratulations on the win! :) Pet deck can still make it!

[diego1985]

Someone took 11th place at the Star City Games Open in Dallas yesterday with a True-Name Nemesis tempo build. The list is here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60564). He was running the merfolk alongside Young Pyromancer and Delver, but no Goblin Guide.

in a list like that what you think about this creature "team"

4 delver
4 guide
3 pyromancer
2 tnn
Inviato dal mio GT-S7500 con Tapatalk 2

[Lentini]

in a list like that what you think about this creature "team"

4 delver
4 guide
3 pyromancer
2 tnn


I like it alot, that's a very well-balanced suite of creatures. With this I would probably play more "controlling" spells like Spell Pierce and less PoP.

Sideboard query: Recently I've been stopped in my tracks by damage preventers out of fringe decks (namely Solitary Confinement, Glacial Chasm, and Energy Field). Do you guys run any versatile sideboard cards to deal with these kind of permanents? One free turn usually does the trick so a bounce spell like Boomerang might work. Do you think things like Flaring Pain / Leyline of Punishment / Everlasting Torment are playable?

Rules question: Can True-Name Nemesis or Kor Firewalker be dealt damage by a red source when the damage can't be prevented?

Thanks for your help.

-Kendrick

[Lemnear]

Those creatures don't prevent damage, they simply don't get hit by it

[Lentini]

Those creatures don't prevent damage, they simply don't get hit by it

OK, thanks Lemnear.

EDIT: This turns out to be false! See below.

[whienot]

@Lentini: Regarding your TNN/Kor Firewalker question.


702.16e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent or player with protection is prevented.


615.11. Some effects state that damage "can't be prevented." If unpreventable damage would be dealt, any applicable prevention effects are still applied to it. Those effects won't prevent any damage, but any additional effects they have will take place. Existing damage prevention shields won't be reduced by damage that can't be prevented.


Yes, if damage cannot be prevented, untargetted damage will kill creatures with protection.

Additionally, cards like Leyline of Punishment stop cards like Energy Field, Solitary Confinement and Glacial Chasm.

[SirTylerGalt]

@Lentini: Regarding your TNN/Kor Firewalker question.





Yes, if damage cannot be prevented, untargetted damage will kill creatures with protection.

Additionally, cards like Leyline of Punishment stop cards like Energy Field, Solitary Confinement and Glacial Chasm.

Yep. This means you can kill a True-Name Nemesis blocking your 1/1 Elemental token if you cast Skullcrack before damage.

More info: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26938-Protection-and-damage-can-t-be-prevented-effects

[Lentini]

Yes, if damage cannot be prevented, untargetted damage will kill creatures with protection.


Wow, excellent. Now I can cover multiple issues with the same sideboard card!

[stage]

I've been testing variants on this list on MWS over the past week or so, and I've been generally happy with it. It destroys combo and has pretty good matchups against grindy decks because of Lavamancer and Pyromancer. I haven't played a ton of the tempo mirror; the RUG matchup seems pretty decent but BUG is fairly awful since their threat density and removal package are both pretty hard to deal with. I tried a couple TNN creature setups, and they felt great when ahead but lousy when behind (mainly getting to 1UU against wastes/stifle hasn't been easy). I might have just had bad matchups during my TNN games though, since people in tournaments have been recently having relatively more success with TNN lists than other lists.

I'm thinking about trying 1-2 Misdirection (survive Abrupt Decays) or Price of Progress (burn them out faster) main to shore up the BGx matchups since I've been having a pretty hard time with them.

I'm torn about Clout of the Dominus. It's really cute with Nivmagus and solid on Delver but not that great on the other >50% of creatures

// Maindeck

1 [THS] Island (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [IN] Island (1)
1 [IN] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Volcanic Island

2 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
4 [RTR] Nivmagus Elemental
3 [M14] Young Pyromancer
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration

4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
3 [M12] Ponder
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [DDJ] Brainstorm
3 [AL] Force of Will
4 [PD2] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
1 [EVE] Clout of the Dominus

// Sideboard

SB: 2 [MMA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DDL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ROE] Forked Bolt
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SHM] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 1 [NPH] Vapor Snag

[syfilisx]

4/3 Shroud Flying is no joke to many decks. In my experience Clout on Delver was many times a GG.
When I drifted away from playing Clout, I went to 1 maindeck Divert, it's always a Spell Pierce to countermagic and you can get people really good with it when casted on Hymn or Decay.
Haven't been playing this deck for few weeks now, went to play UR Dreadstill, have been liking it much, it's very similar to UR Delver in a way.

[stage]

4/3 Shroud Flying is no joke to many decks. In my experience Clout on Delver was many times a GG.
When I drifted away from playing Clout, I went to 1 maindeck Divert, it's always a Spell Pierce to countermagic and you can get people really good with it when casted on Hymn or Decay.
Haven't been playing this deck for few weeks now, went to play UR Dreadstill, have been liking it much, it's very similar to UR Delver in a way.

fair enough, Divert seems pretty cool

[Lentini]

// Sideboard

SB: 2 [MMA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DDL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ROE] Forked Bolt
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SHM] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 1 [NPH] Vapor Snag

Hey Stage! Thanks for your post. I'd like to ask you (or others that can answer) a few questions about your sideboard.

1) Submerge and Vapor Snag: How have these been working for you? I find that big green creatures like Goyf don't trouble me very much; Niv can get bigger and YP can play around it. I will admit that Knight of the Reliquary can be tough sometimes.

2) Smash to Smithereens vs Shattering Spree: I go back and forth on these. I suppose that their pros and cons are pretty apparent so it shouldn't be hard to choose. Anyone have any thoughts?

3) Relic vs Surgical vs Cage: I prefer 2 Surgical + 1 Cage, but I can see how the cycling can help. Do you have any trouble with Relic hurting your Lavamancer?

[stage]

Hey Stage! Thanks for your post. I'd like to ask you (or others that can answer) a few questions about your sideboard.

1) Submerge and Vapor Snag: How have these been working for you? I find that big green creatures like Goyf don't trouble me very much; Niv can get bigger and YP can play around it. I will admit that Knight of the Reliquary can be tough sometimes.

2) Smash to Smithereens vs Shattering Spree: I go back and forth on these. I suppose that their pros and cons are pretty apparent so it shouldn't be hard to choose. Anyone have any thoughts?

3) Relic vs Surgical vs Cage: I prefer 2 Surgical + 1 Cage, but I can see how the cycling can help. Do you have any trouble with Relic hurting your Lavamancer?

Hi! Frankly, I netdecked the sb from the list that got in top 8 at a huge BoM trial; the only change from the netdecked board is -1 Tormod's Crypt +1 Vapor Snag.

In terms of graveyard hate, I haven't tried Surgical or Cage yet. I think they're good against different decks; Relics have a lot of value against decks like KotR decks, RUG Delver, and BUG Delver, and are also pretty good against dedicated gy decks like Dredge, while your board is probably better against Pfire decks, some combo, Reanimator/Tinfins/Dredge, but worse against UGx Delver decks and other decks that get value from the graveyard's size and variety

I love Submerge because it can make Niv bigger for free even when there are no creatures you're worried about. Vapor Snag has been great too, mainly against Delvers and Tombstalkers (against both of which Submerge is also naturally really good). It also has the advantage that a lot of people don't expect spot removal coming when you have {U} open

[sublime love]

I can't see the logic on relic
When u have vapor and submerge
Surgical extraction is sweet, its a probe, as an instant, that does not draw a card.
Seems better over relic
gives you another live card vrs combo, more then relic does
Unless your meta game runs more green grave based decks...

[Juice11]

This is what I am going to try out.

19 LANDS
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Mist Rainforest
3 Island
3 Mountain

12 CREATURES
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Young Pyromancer
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcasters Mage
2 Goblin Guide

29 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
3 Standstill


I think it's kind of cute, especially in the creature section, but I'm going to try it out. Might cut a yp and/or TNN for another goblin guide/snapcaster. The standstills are a little odd, but it is one of my favorite cards and can really dominate a game behind a t1 delver or Goblin Guide. The POP is a beast in my meta. I'm thinking about cutting some/all of the wastelands though. Suggestions are welcomed.

[kaminamina]

I really hate TNN in this deck. He's good in UWR because you run SFM so you can give him a Jitte, and he's good in control builds because he can block for Jace, but Izzet Delver does not want to be paying 3 mana for 3 damage. It doesn't really matter how he'll never die, he just isn't worth it.

You gotta remember that we're a burn deck at heart. If you wanna play tempo, play UWR or RUG since they actually have enough persistent threats to win. With just UR to work with, we gotta just dedicate ourselves to burning them out. (Which is fine, it's more fun that way.)

[stage]

I think TNN UR decks are definitely viable; four of the last five UR decks to place in top 16 of 100+person tournaments have had at least 1 TNN

Matthias Kure (7 of 138, Danish Legacy Masters):

Creatures [11]
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets

0 Chain Lightning, 0 Price of Progress, 2 Jitte

Matheus Bonella (5 of 153, Brazil Nacional Legacy 2013):

Creatures [14]
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer

3 Chain Lightning, 2 Price of Progress, 1 Fireblast

Sandro Bernabe (11 of 251, StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Dallas, TX)

Creatures [12]
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets

1 Forked Bolt

Osyp Lebedowicz (2 of 365, 2013 Eternal Weekend - Legacy)

Same list as Sandro Bernabe

Iann Dordain (7 of 297, BoM2013 Paris - Last 3 Bye Trial)

Creatures [14]
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer

2 Fire//Ice

[Zilla]

I really hate TNN in this deck. He's good in UWR because you run SFM so you can give him a Jitte, and he's good in control builds because he can block for Jace, but Izzet Delver does not want to be paying 3 mana for 3 damage. It doesn't really matter how he'll never die, he just isn't worth it. You gotta remember that we're a burn deck at heart. If you wanna play tempo, play UWR or RUG since they actually have enough persistent threats to win. With just UR to work with, we gotta just dedicate ourselves to burning them out. (Which is fine, it's more fun that way.)

Agreed, TNN is clunky as hell in this deck. Without the support of equipment and SFM, you're better off going the more streamlined to-the-dome approach of burn and burn-like creatures (Delver, Guide, Lavamancer, Pyromancer), and dedicated the rest of your available slots to disruption and card filtering.

[kaminamina]

Here's what I'm running ATM:

Killy Stuff:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress

Utility Stuff:
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

Land:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic island
7 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Divert
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction

I really want to go up to 4 Snaps, but I feel like that would necessitate going up to 20 lands, and I don't know what two cards to cut. I can see cutting a ponder, but what would I cut in addition to it?
I've also considered replacing the spell pierces with spell snare since I have some trouble against SFM game one. (Way I see it, if you can't fight TNN directly, just kill its utility and race the petty 3/1.)
The Cliques are new. They used to be sulfuric vortex, but I'm experimenting with an almost entirely blue manabase since (a) basic mountains suck, (b) daze is the best tempo play in the game, and (c) it fights random blood moons. I rarely go over 1R if I can help it with this manabase, so vortex seems too hard to cast. I also wasn't bringing it in against all that many decks; mostly control decks, which I haven't been having much trouble against anyway. Clique seems strong against combo and SFM, especially on the play.
Questions? Comments? Concerns?
Is skullcrack worth playing? It seems like a really janky way to deal with TNN, plus it's basically a 2-for-1 on yourself unless you're running pyromancer, which I'm not.

[Juice11]

Here's what I'm running ATM:

Killy Stuff:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress

Utility Stuff:
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

Land:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic island
7 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Divert
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction

I really want to go up to 4 Snaps, but I feel like that would necessitate going up to 20 lands, and I don't know what two cards to cut. I can see cutting a ponder, but what would I cut in addition to it?
I've also considered replacing the spell pierces with spell snare since I have some trouble against SFM game one. (Way I see it, if you can't fight TNN directly, just kill its utility and race the petty 3/1.)
The Cliques are new. They used to be sulfuric vortex, but I'm experimenting with an almost entirely blue manabase since (a) basic mountains suck, (b) daze is the best tempo play in the game, and (c) it fights random blood moons. I rarely go over 1R if I can help it with this manabase, so vortex seems too hard to cast. I also wasn't bringing it in against all that many decks; mostly control decks, which I haven't been having much trouble against anyway. Clique seems strong against combo and SFM, especially on the play.
Questions? Comments? Concerns?
Is skullcrack worth playing? It seems like a really janky way to deal with TNN, plus it's basically a 2-for-1 on yourself unless you're running pyromancer, which I'm not.


I'm not really understanding the 7 islands to 1 mountain argument with the amount of red cards you are running.

edit: nvm

[JDK]

Anyway, pyroclasm is a good way to deal with TNN. It kills your creatures, but you have the benefit of knowing you have it.
Hint: Protection from something prevents damage from such sources.

[kaminamina]

I'm not really understanding the 7 islands to 1 mountain argument with the amount of red cards you are running. Anyway, pyroclasm is a good way to deal with TNN. It kills your creatures, but you have the benefit of knowing you have it.



If you look at the red cards, they're mostly just a single R in the cost. I have 12 lands that can give potentially give red mana. Whatever problems I've been having, they haven't been with color screwing.
Plus, having a turn one island is so important (even if you don't have daze in hand) because it makes them play around daze. It's the same with stifle; you leave an open blue for brainstorm or spell pierce or something and every time they fetch you make them wait and act like you're debating something. They spend the rest of the game playing around stifle. It helps that I used to run stifle and it's a local meta so they all remember getting blown out by it. I'm planning on bringing the stifle/waste package next weekend to mess with their head, even though it's sub optimal in UR. It's all about the long game, gentlemen!

Also, clasm doesn't kill TNN, and even if it did rough/tumble would usually be better. And it still wouldn't be good. I've found that spell snare or stifle are the best ways to fight TNN, since racing 3/1 is easy, but racing sfm is not. Smash to smithereens works well game 2 as well.



Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Just a little FYI, you can't Stifle TNN. It's a static ability, not a triggered ability.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Hopo]

Just a little FYI, you can't Stifle TNN. It's a static ability, not a triggered ability.


Same with the other card he mentions, Spell Snare, so obviously it's all about neutering Stoneforge Mystic. Otherwise you should have no problems racing a 7 turn clock which attack for the first time on turn 4.

[trollking21]

Hey I wanted to try this deck out, what is everyone currently running.

[Juice11]

Hey I wanted to try this deck out, what is everyone currently running.


This is what I run, it's a little home brew ish.

17 LANDS
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
2 Mountain

12 CREATURES
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer (sometimes 3 Goblin Guide instead)
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcasters Mage

31 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
1 Fire//Ice
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Thunderous Wrath


SB:

3 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's cage
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Price of Progress
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Divert
1 Spell Pierce

[trollking21]

This is what I run, it's a little home brew ish.

17 LANDS
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
2 Mountain

12 CREATURES
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer (sometimes 3 Goblin Guide instead)
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcasters Mage

31 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
1 Fire//Ice
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Thunderous Wrath


SB:

3 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's cage
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Price of Progress
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Divert
1 Spell Pierce

Why thunderous wrath? It seems awkward.

[Will_L]

Why thunderous wrath? It seems awkward.

It's not... A singleton Thunderous Wrath is great in this deck. Every time I play U/R I always include one Wrath because you almost never draw it in your opener. There is nothing better than flipping a Delver of Secrets of Thunderous Wrath.

Plus if you draw it in your opener you can always put it back with Brainstorm.

[Juice11]

It's not... A singleton Thunderous Wrath is great in this deck. Every time I play U/R I always include one Wrath because you almost never draw it in your opener. There is nothing better than flipping a Delver of Secrets of Thunderous Wrath.

Plus if you draw it in your opener you can always put it back with Brainstorm.

Yea, that's why I have it in there. Would probably be better as a 1 of and adding a daze.

[Ruta Barracuda]

There was a list a while back than ran a pretty successful (made top 8's) miracles package of Thunderous Wrath and Temporal Mastery. The package run was like 3-4-of's. In my own build, I ended up running 1-2 of each in my flex slots. Against Miracle control, having 1-2 of both Thunderous Wrath and Temporal Mastery was pretty awesome for me. Thunderous Wrath often helped me keep the pressure on, and I often stayed in burn range because of it.

[wizard_of_gore]

Hi guys! I'm working on this list, so i need your feedbacks:

4x Delver of secrets
4x Young pyromancer
2x snapcaster mage / TNN ( i dont know yet)
2x grim lavamancer

4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian probe
3x ponder
4x Lightning bolt
4x Chain lightning
4x Force of will
4x Daze
3x spell pierce

4x wasteland
4x scalding tarn
2x wooded foothils
3x flooded strand
2x island
1x mountain
2x volcanic island

sb: common stuff we all need...

Deck is very simple - it evolves around delver and young pyromancer. Everything is about protect them to win the game. 12 free spells/11 cantrip (hello pyrmancer), 8 burn (reach/removal), 6-8 evasive creature damage (delver, grim, tnn), and cheap disruption to ensure delver/pyromancer stay on board and goes to victory (wasteland, daze, pierce, fow).

[tyhiggz]

Hi guys! I'm working on this list, so i need your feedbacks:

4x Delver of secrets
4x Young pyromancer
2x snapcaster mage / TNN ( i dont know yet)
2x grim lavamancer

4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian probe
3x ponder
4x Lightning bolt
4x Chain lightning
4x Force of will
4x Daze
3x spell pierce

4x wasteland
4x scalding tarn
2x wooded foothils
3x flooded strand
2x island
1x mountain
2x volcanic island

sb: common stuff we all need...

Deck is very simple - it evolves around delver and young pyromancer. Everything is about protect them to win the game. 12 free spells/11 cantrip (hello pyrmancer), 8 burn (reach/removal), 6-8 evasive creature damage (delver, grim, tnn), and cheap disruption to ensure delver/pyromancer stay on board and goes to victory (wasteland, daze, pierce, fow).

I put together a nearly identical list looking at two of the three UR decklists that have gotten top 8 since TNN was printed.
I used: Osyp Lebedowicz's list http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6121&d=235402 and Mathias Kure's list http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5957&d=234562

Compared to your list I opted to have the 2 TNN in your slot you weren't sure about. I also have 3 Stifle and 1 Forked bolt in place of the chain lightnings that you have. I also have one more ponder and one less probe.

I absolutely love having 11-12 free spells in the deck to capitalize on Young Pyromancer which is an amazing card. I think that having all the probes only improves stifle for the deck. Probes let us know what plays we will have available. With all of the TNN running around, I think the mana denial plan is really helpful. We can stifle and wasteland them off of ever being able to play a TNN all the while we can go get our basic lands and drop a TNN.

I'm pretty torn on whether the stifle or chain lightning are better, but I love the rest of the list.

Things I love about this deck: It can be built to be very similar to RUG and/or WUR without being susceptible to all of the hate that beats poor manabases. We also can use blood moon, price of progress, or other hate in our favor.

[Matty476]

I finally switched it up from the aggressive Schneider build to the more controlling Lebedowicz build. I made top 8 (we split) my first tournament with it. It seems a lot more resilient with true name and young pyromancer, also I never felt bogged down with too many red cards against combo. Here is the list: http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic/tourney/01_12_2014legacy.html#MattSarradet

I beat patriot, punishing Jund, team America, and sneaky show. I lost to elves, and 4color loam. Patriot feels a lot like a mirror match, except they have more removal, but we have more true-names, so it seems good to go all in on getting the first nemesis, and make sure to counter sfm. Jund was very grindy, game one was won by a pair of unanswered elemental tokens. The second game was a TNN v. Goyf, both with jitte's...true name wins. Elves was brutal, does anybody have any advice on this matchup? Game one I mulled into oblivion. Game 2 he abrupt decayed my delvers, and crushed me with crater hoof before I could get any more pressure. Team America was tough game one, but games 2&3 I submerged his tomb stalker, and resolved blood moon for the win. 4 color loam was another tough match up. It seems like it would have been better if I had ever gotten a TNN into play, but got locked out by chalice on one, and ground out by loam. Game 2 I played blood moon with both of my islands in play, got a pyromancer rolling, and he top decks devastating dreams, plays it for 6 blowing up all my land. Now I have no basics left, and he eventually gets to mox diamond. Maybe blood moon wasn't the best idea... I have a lot of experience in the sneaky show match up, a delver and 3 counter spells wins every time, and gitaxian probe is an all star.

Any opinions/advice on the sideboard? I am thinking maybe a second jitte instead of the electrickery to help against the tribal decks, storm is already a good matchup.

[tyhiggz]

Hello Matty!

I'm playing a very similar list and am going to the SCG Open in Columbus on Sunday. The only difference is that I decided to drop the stifles that everyone should be expecting and playing around for another Spell Pierce and two Chain Lightning. I'm hoping that more removal helps out especially against Elves and Death & Taxes.

Did you happen to side the Electrickery in for Elves and D&T? I put that card in my sideboard solely for those matches. They hardly have any creatures that aren't x/1. So, the card should be a blowout. I figure that my extra other removal can help with the x/2 guys.
I'm sure that another Jitte would be helpful though.

Do you think we're too good against storm to worry about keeping a Flusterstorm in the board? I suppose we have bigger concerns. Also, Empty the Warrens is more of a backup plan for them, which makes Electrickery pretty dead.

Was essentially having three red blasts too many?

Did did you think that 2 Smash to smithereens was too much / too few / just right for combatting Chalice of the Void? Did you bring those in against Stoneforge Mystic decks as well?

Were you not able to keep any threat down in the Blood Moon match against loam?
Devastating dreams sounds absolutely miserable. It looks like Blood Moon isn't as good against the creature version of loam control, but normally should still be a good play.
That particular list seems extraordinarily well equipped to deal with Blood Moon.

I still have the two Vendilion Cliques that Osyp had in his board. What led you to taking those out? I feel like they make a good catch all for any backbreaking card an opponent could get.

How good were the Submerges? I took those down to two due to the influx of Blue fair decks and drop in green fair decks.

One of my biggest questions/issues is deciding what to side out versus various decks. Any help there would be excellent.

Great job getting top 8 in a pretty sizable tournament! It's good to see someone else not playing the Counter/Burn variety and choosing to utilize Young Pyromancer and Blood Moon instead of Price of Progress.

[Matty476]

Hey, sorry for the delay in responding. I brought in the electrickery against elves, and never drew it, and drew the jitte much too late for it to be effective. Your extra burn should help as well. I playtested the elves matchup several times throughout the week, and it just seems really bad unless you can land a turn 1 lavamancer.

Flusterstorm is nice, you can still use it against sneak and show as well, I opted for the extra pyroblasts instead as I was more worried about True Name Nemesis, which our spell pierces and dazes often miss. I also have extra storm protection with stifle. So it depends which matchup you feel is tougher: fair blue decks or combo.

Submerge was good against goyf/DRshaman and amazing against tomb stalker. It was however surprisingly weak against elves.

Vendilion Clique is nice too, it gives you something to swap out for the True Names against combo, I just don't know what I would cut for them.

As far as what to side out, its mostly intuitive, go with your gut! I just try to cut a couple of the less optimal cards in each matchup. I don't like siding out all of my forces usually, in the grindy matchups ill side out a couple, and a couple of dazes. In the fair matchups you can usually cut a gitaxian probe or two, when I side in blood moon, i usually cut 1-2 of whichever creature seems the worst in the matchup because you are upping the threat count.

Good luck in Colombus! let us know how it goes.

[Ttvetjanu]

Hey!

I went 4-0 at a local 12 player event with UR delver. I've recently played UWR delver a fair deal but my local meta is very high in greedy/control decks and UWR just doesn't seem to cut it, so I chose to play UR.

Here's my list:

18 lands
2 True-name Nemesis
4 Delver of secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Goblin Guide

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Price of Progress

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red elemental blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm


My match ups were the following:

Punishing Loam 2-0 (possibly the easiest matchup ever)
Jund 2-1
Merfolk 2-1
Jund 2-1

Jund and merfolk were very grindy match ups but eventually drawing enough burn got me there. I would probably move one sulfuric vortex to the sideboard and remove the pyroclasm. Probably maindeck a lavamancer or a forked bolt instead. The sideboarded forces stayed there, so I guess I was lucky with that choice. There was one storm player but I think that after sideboard I should have a very good matchup against that deck. Overall I was very happy with the deck and the potential power it has.

[Heresy]

Latest addition to our card pool :

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151753&d=1390453342

Potential for CA but no offensive power on it's own.

[tyhiggz]

Latest addition to our card pool :

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151753&d=1390453342

Potential for CA but no offensive power on it's own.

It could be pretty cool while in burn deck mode against elves and D&T, but seems underpowered otherwise.

[DragoFireheart]

It could be pretty cool while in burn deck mode against elves and D&T, but seems underpowered otherwise.

I would never put that in any burn deck.

[JDK]

I'd rather have my Snapcaster Mages ready than this guy.

[tyhiggz]

I'm definitely not saying that the card is playable, but it would only ever find some utility if you are doing a lot of face burning while facing a hoard of creatures.

[jtos84]

I was wondering if there are categories for a R/U Landstill deck. I know this deck was played six years ago. I put a version together today, and it has been doing really well. So far I have beaten Death and Taxes, Elves, and Merfolk. I figured this would be the closest deck to what I put together. If it does well and there are no other categories yet I might ask if a thread is needed. Here is the list.

// Lands
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

// Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Goblin Guide

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
4 Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Counterspell
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Price of Progress

I had to edit the list. I forgot about brainstorm, so I took out counterbalance (never used it in matches anyway), one top, one vapor snag, a daze, and two spell snares. I put in four stifles, and four brainstorms.

[syfilisx]

You play in meta where Sensei's top is better 1 drop than Grim Lavamancer under Standstill?
Not sayng that Sensei's top is bad in standstill deck, but for me Grim Lavamancer has been the nuts for some time.
Edit. You beated D&T, Elves & Folk even without it, but imagine how easy it would have been with them.

[jtos84]

You play in meta where Sensei's top is better 1 drop than Grim Lavamancer under Standstill?
Not sayng that Sensei's top is bad in standstill deck, but for me Grim Lavamancer has been the nuts for some time.
Edit. You beated D&T, Elves & Folk even without it, but imagine how easy it would have been with them.

I have thought the same thing you mentioned. I noticed after playing it how similar the build is to r/u stiflenaught. I know it looks like a no-brainer that some card choices are strange. The goal in testing its too find something for when Spirit of the laberynth is legal. I think you might be right about grim lavamancer, so I am going to test with that. The goblin guide has been pretty damn good though. Oh, the reasoning for guide over mancer was that it is really easy for me to get cut off of red. The top is good not only for searching up whatever card, but also because it acts like a ponder when spirit of the laberynth is in play.

[blindspotxxx]

Andrew Schneider made it again!

top 16 :) This deck is good for the current meta

[Gunseng]

How do you guys beat Death and Taxes? I lose most of my games against them as they can stabilize quickly and have a ton of life gain. Any advice?

[Rocco111]

@Gunseng:
G1--> You got to burn MoR asap, then SfM asap. MoR will protect the others from your burn spells so get rid of it first. SfM will fetch Jitte or Batterskull (or SoFI if played), so if you cannot counter it, you gotta burn it and then, later, counter the Equipements. The rest isn't much trouble. Just a matter of racing them. Grim normally takes care of cleaning the board for you. There's not many things to counter apart from his removals and the aforementioned cards.
G2/3--> Side-in your artifact-hate (vs Jitte and Batterskull) and your Sulfur Vortex (and eventually more burns, if you play a Schneider-style list). As DnT doesn't counter anything, you just have to make sure your threats stay on the battlefield.
PoP is unfortunately not at its best in this MU, so it is a potential card to side out.
m2c

[syfilisx]

If it's played lot in your meta, just jam 3-4x Sulfur Elemental on side, that gets the job done and is pretty good to pressure Jace with and play with counterbalance on board also.

[diego1985]

im really in difficulty vs dark depth... i cant found any solution..

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[Stuuch]

Vapor Snag?

[Heresy]

Vapor Snag?

There's also Submerge, Blood Moon and Pithing Needle.

[dsck]

Repeal is good value. :cool:

[Andrew.Schneider]

im really in difficulty vs dark depth... i cant found any solution..

Inviato dal mio GT-S7500 con Tapatalk 2

Price of Progress isn't cutting it?

[diego1985]

Price of Progress isn't cutting it?

i play a tempo list and i have only 2 blood moon

Use capitalization and punctuation please. Thanks. -zilla

[sawatarix]

Prive of progress is the main reason to take ur delver in my opinion.

I'm kinda curious about the ceature base,why do you not play Tnn in the deck?
I also miss some real beatdown creatures like tarmogoyf.
Goblinguide and young pyromancer gets stalled easily by opposing creatures and delver seems like the only creature which pushes through damage even if the board gets crowded.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Andrew.Schneider]

Prive of progress is the main reason to take ur delver in my opinion.

I'm kinda curious about the ceature base,why do you not play Tnn in the deck?
I also miss some real beatdown creatures like tarmogoyf.
Goblinguide and young pyromancer gets stalled easily by opposing creatures and delver seems like the only creature which pushes through damage even if the board gets crowded.

- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNkgVuIGiUM

[beez]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNkgVuIGiUM

Thanks Andrew, I was thinking about trying 2-3 TNN in the mainboard along with 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex main for inevitable reach to get across the line, perhaps losing a couple of junior bolts and possibly moving a Spell Pierce or two to the board. After watching your video I would imagine you would say that weakens the Snapcasters and Grim Lavamancers a bit, who might also be able to get that too with more instants in the yard.

Also, what is your plan against tribal swarms such as elves, goblins, merfolk and dnt? And what do you side out to bring in the vortex and smash against TNN equipent decks?

[Stuuch]

The basic sideboard plan with this deck is to side out all counters and bring in lava spikes vortex and matchup dependant cards. In case of TNN decks smash to smithereens. Combo decks are a different story.

[sawatarix]

It would be also possible to have an aggresive burn delver deck which becomes a controlish deck against combo
If we put all spell pierces in the sideboard and run lavaspikes in the main (or3-4 prive of progress in the main as this is the most powerful spell in the deck against most of the field)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Andrew.Schneider]

Thanks Andrew, I was thinking about trying 2-3 TNN in the mainboard along with 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex main for inevitable reach to get across the line, perhaps losing a couple of junior bolts and possibly moving a Spell Pierce or two to the board. After watching your video I would imagine you would say that weakens the Snapcasters and Grim Lavamancers a bit, who might also be able to get that too with more instants in the yard.

Also, what is your plan against tribal swarms such as elves, goblins, merfolk and dnt? And what do you side out to bring in the vortex and smash against TNN equipent decks?


Yeah pretty much to the TNNs.

I board as many counters out as I can vs goblins, merfolk, and dnt. I bring in the Smelts/Smashes vs dnt and merfolk (jitte and random vials). Against elves I leave my forces in for glimpse and natural order, but with bolts and snapcasters that matchup is kind of a joke. Against TNN decks i side out my 8 counters for the 3 spike, 2 smelt, 2 vortex, and 1 price.

[diego1985]

next week I will play this list to a tournament from 50 participants. I expect a combo control meta (uwr dark depth painter ant). Do you have suggestions?

4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Mountain
2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

SB: 2 Fireblast or 2 electrickery
SB: 3 Submerge or 3 vapor snag
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast


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[JDK]

Legacy Open Vienna - 31 players


4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Gitaxian Probe

3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Daze

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress

//Sideboard
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vapor Snag
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dismember
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis


R1: UWr 2:1
R2: Dark Maverick 2:0
R3: Miracles 0:2
R4: BUG Delver 2:0
R5: Reanimator 2:1

Quarterfinals: Miracles 2:0
Semi-finals: BUG Delver 0:2

Went 4/0/1 in swiss rounds, finishing first, but lost in the semi-finals due to a pretty retarded misplay.
Our metagame is crowded with Miracles, BUG Delver and UWr, so I could see myself opting to play more Price of Progress again and even play 4 Vortex in the SB.
A German breakdown of the event can be found on my blog (http://www.kraken.at/2014/03/17/legacy-open-wien-16-03-2014/).

[Exuberance]

I haven't put down RUG since September, but I'm thinking UR is the current place to be. I'm already playing seven bolts and boarding Prices in RUG. Might as well cut Geese for Guides and break up with Stifle.

4 Delver
4 Guide
4 Snap
2 Lavamancer
4 Bolt
4 Chain
3 Price
4 BStorm
4 Ponder
3 FoW
2 Pierce
3 Daze
19 lands

2 SVortex
2 Smash
2 REB
4 Lava Spike
2 Surgical
1 FoW
2 FStorm

[Kl'rt]

Koby in Top 8 with UR Delver at SCG LA now.

To be honest now, with Miracle so prevalent everywhere, I would not have thought this deck is a good choice. Doesn't this deck just lose to Countertop lock?

[Nocley]

Very little miracles here in la. I didn't see any past round 3

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Koby in Top 8 with UR Delver at SCG LA now.

To be honest now, with Miracle so prevalent everywhere, I would not have thought this deck is a good choice. Doesn't this deck just lose to Countertop lock?

Miracles isn't widely played. Abrupt Decay and cards with a converted manacost greater than one and two exist.

[JDK]

Koby in Top 8 with UR Delver at SCG LA now.

To be honest now, with Miracle so prevalent everywhere, I would not have thought this deck is a good choice. Doesn't this deck just lose to Countertop lock?
Once the lock is on the board, it's getting tough. Post-Board you have Vortex (and possibly some other useful spells like Blast), which is the most important card in the match-up. Don't forget you have counter-spells.


Miracles isn't widely played. Abrupt Decay and cards with a converted manacost greater than one and two exist.
In Europe it's easily a DTB and BUG Delver has its problems against the deck too.

@Koby
Grats.

[Koby]

Thanks guys, but I'm just a pilot. I didn't really do much tweaking with the deck outside of fitting in Gitaxian Probes.

[Exuberance]

Thanks guys, but I'm just a pilot. I didn't really do much tweaking with the deck outside of fitting in Gitaxian Probes.

I was thinking of playing UR Delver at the Invitational. I like the Probes over Dazes/chaff. Anything about the list you would consider changing?

[Koby]

I was thinking of playing UR Delver at the Invitational. I like the Probes over Dazes/chaff. Anything about the list you would consider changing?

Yea, I think people seeing my list will assume it wont play Daze. Adding a couple back in will keep people honest, likely replacing 2 FoW, which can be put in the sideboard.

[JDK]

Were you satisfied with the Probes? It's one of my favorite cards, but I just cannot justfiy cutting other spells to include more than two, as I feel like UR Delver is already an extremely tight deck and I am a proponent of Daze and a well rounded counter-suite in the maindeck in general.

[meffeo]

Went 3-0 at my lgs with a more tempo-oriented shell. Defeated Thopter Combo 2-0, MUD 2-1 and Stoneblade 2-1.

Here's the list:

Creatures:10
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells:33
4 Brainstorm
2 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Electrickery
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Submerge

Probably going with -1 mountain +1 island.

[Richard Cheese]

Thanks guys, but I'm just a pilot. I didn't really do much tweaking with the deck outside of fitting in Gitaxian Probes.

I'm actually interested in why you went with Probes over Daze or even more burn. Do you still find the information useful in a deck without discard, or is the free cantrip really the more important component?

[Zilla]

The extra info from Probe is nice, but I like it mostly for free Pyromancer tokens + card draw. I've been running 3 of them in my UR Delver list for months and really liking them.

[Koby]

I'm actually interested in why you went with Probes over Daze or even more burn. Do you still find the information useful in a deck without discard, or is the free cantrip really the more important component?


The extra info from Probe is nice, but I like it mostly for free Pyromancer tokens + card draw. I've been running 3 of them in my UR Delver list for months and really liking them.

I found Probe to be a cantrip, and I certainly needed to maintain a large blue count, and large spell count for FoW and Delver, respectively. I had been trying to find a way to fit in Pyromancer, but ultimately felt that at 2 mana, it's too slow when combined with Snapcaster Mage. I really wanted to play a Price of Progress deck, and Burn is basically unplayable if you want to win regularly. I found Andrew Schneider's list very agreeable, but never really felt that Daze was worthwhile when the goal is to hit 3 mana to turn on Snapcaster Mage.

Probe basically just cycling while providing context for sequencing was good enough. I never wanted to flash it back with SCM because of how much mana and life that commits to the main phase. The information is very worthwhile against combo, and very lacking in other matches. I boarded them out along with FoWs against discard for more burn. B/x decks with discard have a hard enough time dealing with 8 bolts, and 12 is just gravy.

My matches from Sunday:

R1: Mono Blue Omni-Tell (2-0)
R2: Reanimator (2-0)
R3: Jund (2-0)
R4: Punishing Maverick (2-1?)
R5: Merfolk (2-1?)
R6: Sneak & Show (2-1)
R7: Death & Taxes (2-1)
R8 / R9 - ID

T8 - Sneak & Show (2-1... 3-0 if I didn't brain fart and draw 3 off Ponder)
T4 - Food Chain (2-1)
Finals - BUG Midrange (0-2)

[Megadeus]

I liked your plays vs Sneak and show. Seeing that he had a matching fetch land in hand off of Probe and using surgical to screw him out of a land was awesome.

[Koby]

I liked your plays vs Sneak and show. Seeing that he had a matching fetch land in hand off of Probe and using surgical to screw him out of a land was awesome.

I usually don't recommend these types of plays, as it's very low impact. However, lacking a hard counter for Sneak Attack, I needed to buy time to get a threat on board. Probe helped to figure this puzzle out. Surgical also provides the same "peek at hand" effect which is why I cast it again after Kelvin Brainstormed. Using my knowledge of playing Sneak Show, I knew it relied heavily on its cantrips to piece A+B, so removing his filtering (in this case Ponder as he already used 3 Brainstorms and locked himself without a land) reduced his chances to just blindly topdecking.

[Andrew.Schneider]

I found Probe to be a cantrip, and I certainly needed to maintain a large blue count, and large spell count for FoW and Delver, respectively. I had been trying to find a way to fit in Pyromancer, but ultimately felt that at 2 mana, it's too slow when combined with Snapcaster Mage. I really wanted to play a Price of Progress deck, and Burn is basically unplayable if you want to win regularly. I found Andrew Schneider's list very agreeable, but never really felt that Daze was worthwhile when the goal is to hit 3 mana to turn on Snapcaster Mage.


I really like the change. Probe is a card I've always wanted to fit in but couldn't figure out how. And I can tell from your reasoning that you understand how we should be playing games. I'll have to give it a try.

[JDK]

btw here's a video of the second round (against Junk) of my most recent tournament:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bcJjogeUZ8

[beez]

I usually don't recommend these types of plays, as it's very low impact. However, lacking a hard counter for Sneak Attack, I needed to buy time to get a threat on board. Probe helped to figure this puzzle out. Surgical also provides the same "peek at hand" effect which is why I cast it again after Kelvin Brainstormed. Using my knowledge of playing Sneak Show, I knew it relied heavily on its cantrips to piece A+B, so removing his filtering (in this case Ponder as he already used 3 Brainstorms and locked himself without a land) reduced his chances to just blindly topdecking.

It certainly seems to make a blazing fast deck even faster. The question I have is it seems to significantly weaken the matchups against those decks that like first or second turn Chalice @1 , not so uncommon for me to run against, Tezzerator, AggroLoam ,etc. Not such a big deal in the wider meta, but I guess I don't like punting matchups completely. Combo plays around Daze, but it is still a turn, still a counter, though I see a Probe can help you find a Force or a sided in Flusterstorm faster. I do like the idea of not sometimes losing tempo to Daze however.

[beez]

btw here's a video of the second round (against Junk) of my most recent tournament:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bcJjogeUZ8

Like taking candy from a baby

[Koby]

It certainly seems to make a blazing fast deck even faster. The question I have is it seems to significantly weaken the matchups against those decks that like first or second turn Chalice @1 , not so uncommon for me to run against, Tezzerator, AggroLoam ,etc. Not such a big deal in the wider meta, but I guess I don't like punting matchups completely. Combo plays around Daze, but it is still a turn, still a counter, though I see a Probe can help you find a Force or a sided in Flusterstorm faster. I do like the idea of not sometimes losing tempo to Daze however.

There's a lot of points here, so let's break them out:

Chalice decks -- these are not a large part of the metagame. It's probably a very bad matchup considering the concentration of 1-drops. Probably 20/80 in my opinion, or slightly higher due to Force of Will.
Combo - weak G1 due to non-important cards. SB should and does fix this with Flusterstorm, REBs, and Surgical (altho weak).

All of which Gitaxian Probe reveals and helps you shift gears to align your cantrips with your opponent's strategy. Sometimes, this doesn't work out well like my finals match showed. (nevermind I was playing to my out of Price of Progress both games. I wanted to put on a show :D)

Finally, Daze is better in a Wasteland/Stifle type of deck. UR Delver lists for the most part play into their best card: Price of Progress. While there is a small synergy between showing Daze to force the opponent to overcommit lands into PoP, the deck does not generally care to play a mana denial strategy. Daze loses a lot of ground as a Force Spike thus. I preferred to just play more cantrips (Probe, 4th Ponder) and square up the burn package to streamline/linearize the game plan. Seemed to have worked out for me. My opponent may have attempted to play around Daze, but I never bothered to notice. I was more concerned with finding a clock and sequencing mana/cantrips correctly to maximize topdecks.

I had a ton of really close games, and this seems to have helped much more than access to Daze.

[JDK]

Like taking candy from a baby
That's how it felt. Good (candy!) and wrong at the same time. :D

[Nordvoll]

Koby: Would you cut a Lava Spike or a Sulfuric Vortex If you where to up Surgical Extraction to 3 ?

[Demonic_Attorney]

Koby: Would you cut a Lava Spike or a Sulfuric Vortex If you where to up Surgical Extraction to 3 ?

Given that there are only 2x Sulfuric Vortex in the SB it would not be prudent, in my view, to cut one (1) and go down to a single copy. If you're contemplating playing 3x Surgical Extraction in your SB I think that cutting a Lava Spike makes the most sense; however, Koby can provide his insight which I suspect he will do in due course.

[JDK]

Vortex is the single most important card against Miracles and it's generally a beast in UWx matchups. It may be fine to play two or less in the North American metagame, but in Europe I wouldn't settle with less than two. Local metas may vary, though.

[meffeo]

Vortex is the single most important card against Miracles and it's generally a beast in UWx matchups. It may be fine to play two or less in the North American metagame, but in Europe I wouldn't settle with less than two. Local metas may vary, though.

Usually I side in the 2 Vortex also against MUD (see Wurmcoil Engine).
Against MUD also Daze is a great card (see Ancient Tomb) that normally remains in mainboard.

[JDK]

Vortex's job is to prey on UWx, pretty much everything else is just bonus, as decks like MUD are fringe ones and you could do way better than Vortex against it.

[mextremartini]

Hello everyone, i was thinking about a more tempo oriented approach.

This is a much more RUG delver style, but with more stable mana base. All creatures have evasion, and the set of Spell Pierce is there, not just to counter enemy's brainstorm, but also to protect your own value creatures. Those 8 creatures are very good and mana efficiente, while Clique can come as an instant. I never really liked to get my shields down.

Please, feel confortable to make sugestions.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lighning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

[Koby]

Koby: Would you cut a Lava Spike or a Sulfuric Vortex If you where to up Surgical Extraction to 3 ?


Given that there are only 2x Sulfuric Vortex in the SB it would not be prudent, in my view, to cut one (1) and go down to a single copy. If you're contemplating playing 3x Surgical Extraction in your SB I think that cutting a Lava Spike makes the most sense; however, Koby can provide his insight which I suspect he will do in due course.

The sideboard should really be build to address and shore up any weaker matchups you expect to face in your meta. I anticipated plenty of Jund, and other matches where I would not want Force of Will; so I needed a way to max out on Lava Spikes. If you have more combo or graveyard decks, definitely pump up the number of Extractions. Lava Spike down to 3 seems OK. I do recommend no less than 2 Sulfuric Vortex for the reasons D_A gave.

[syfilisx]

Hello everyone, i was thinking about a more tempo oriented approach.

This is a much more RUG delver style, but with more stable mana base. All creatures have evasion, and the set of Spell Pierce is there, not just to counter enemy's brainstorm, but also to protect your own value creatures. Those 8 creatures are very good and mana efficient, while Clique can come as an instant. I never really liked to get my shields down.

Please, feel comfortable to make suggestions.

I am feeling that RUG works partly because Nimble Mongoose is such a strong card and they still have 12 threats. You have 10 and everyone dies to all removal in format. That is pretty lame argument, but I feel like that you are in world of hurt at least against decay decks.

[JDK]

@mextremartini
Ask yourself how this would be better than UR and RUG. In comparison to RUG you run an infinitely weaker creature base and run a 3-drop with 18 lands, 4 of which are Wastelands. In comparison to UR you have a much lower threat density and little reach. You lose much of the early pressure for being a completely inferior tempo deck than the usual suspects.



I do recommend no less than 2 Sulfuric Vortex for the reasons D_A gave.
D_A? ;)

[Collman]

Hello everyone, i was thinking about a more tempo oriented approach.



This (http://www.metamox.com/deck.php?id=40009) list got to top16 in SCG Open in Dallas (11/10) last year.

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Young Pyromancer

2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle


It plays TNN instead of Clique since it's harder to kill and YPyro to get value out of your free spells.
I agree that it's basically RUG with worst creatures, the only (small) upside being that it's not vulnerable to graveyard hate, but if you want to try it it's a better starting point than 4 Lavamancers and Cliques IMO.

[Nordvoll]

Thanks for sharing you'r insight regarding Vortex/Lava Spike
Can you guys also share some sb advice against D&T and Patriot ?

I'm going to play a list similar to Koby's for my next local legacy event. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65248
Maybe some minor SB tweeks for the meta.

[JDK]

If you are using the exact list, you could board something like this, depending on lists, opponents and playstyle:

Board out:

both: FoW, some number of Probes
DnT: PoP, otd even Goblin Guide is possible, if you need the space
UWR Delver: Pierce


Board in:

both: Smash to Smithereens, Lava Spike, Vortex (you have to be aware that DnT can clock you too)
DnT:
UWR Delver: Flusterstorm, Blast

[Lordofthestringz]

What do you guys think about Spell Snare in this deck?

I agree on the Daze discussion and how it doesnt go that well with the "get to 3 mana" plan, but what about Spell Snare?

He does counter some really problematic spells like Counterbalance and Goyf.

Maybe a split of 2 Daze/2 Spell Snare or 2 Gitaxian Probe/2 Spell Snare might be worth testing

[Andrew.Schneider]

What do you guys think about Spell Snare in this deck?

I agree on the Daze discussion and how it doesnt go that well with the "get to 3 mana" plan, but what about Spell Snare?

He does counter some really problematic spells like Counterbalance and Goyf.

Maybe a split of 2 Daze/2 Spell Snare or 2 Gitaxian Probe/2 Spell Snare might be worth testing

I don't think it does enough. The only spell it counters that we care about (and isn't countered by spell pierce) is Goyf. Which means if you have room for snare it should probably be more pierce.

[MBSegal]

What do y'all think of Thunderous Wrath?????
Stifle?
TROO NAME NEMESES?

[cogitoergosum]

What do y'all think of Thunderous Wrath?????
Stifle?
TROO NAME NEMESES?

Stifle should only be in versions without goblin guide. I think these versions have room for tnn- in fact I won a tournament Wednesday with a tempo list. I'll post when I'm at a computer.

[dsck]

If you want to play stifles this is the version:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11877&iddeck=86941

Problem is, splash hate from golgari charms (aimed at True-Name) hit this deck pretty badly as well so it may not be good choice in the current meta.

[JDK]

What do y'all think of Thunderous Wrath?????
Stifle?
TROO NAME NEMESES?#
Read the thread. Make use of the search function.


If you want to play stifles this is the version:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11877&iddeck=86941

Problem is, splash hate from golgari charms (aimed at True-Name) hit this deck pretty badly as well so it may not be good choice in the current meta.

This version is extremey bad against Miracles. I've already commented on it after Ovino.

[Ertai87]

Just T8'd a local 41-man Legacy event the other day with this list. It also did well for me previously in local Legacy events, although I recently moved and no longer have access to those stores.

Creatures: (12)
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Young Pyromancer
2x True-Name Nemesis

Spells: (29)
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning

Artifacts: (1)
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Land: (18)
1x Red Fetch
3x Blue Fetch
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
1x Mountain
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard: (15)
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Submerge
2x Flusterstorm
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Pyroblast
2x Blood Moon
1x Sulfur Elemental

Brief Overview: This is a pretty standard list. No Stifles, mainly cause the list I copied this from didn't play any, and after testing this list a bunch I never felt like I needed them. I'm thinking of cutting the True-Names because after a month of testing, they've never actually been cast, and have always just been pitched to Force of Will. I'm thinking of putting Snapcasters in their place because Snap can at least be an Ambush Viper sometimes, although it makes the deck extra-weak to Engineered Plague (TNN being a Merfolk is actually nontrivial).

The miser's Umezawa's Jitte is in the deck specifically because Jitte + Young Pyro and Jitte + TNN is occasionally GG on the spot. There's no funny business, no tricks, nothing. It's exactly what it looks like: a miser's 1-of that is in the deck to randomly steal games.

Sideboarding with this deck is not very difficult:

Against combo, you bring in whatever combo hate you think you need, and bring out the dead cards. What the dead cards are should be pretty obvious; usually you start by bringing out reach (Lavamancers and Bolts). You leave in TNN over these cards because TNN pitches to Force of Will, and with the amount of countermagic you have available postboard you don't need reach to close out the game.

Against 3-color midrange decks, you swap out your top end. TNN "almost" wins the game on the spot, whereas Blood Moon actually does win the game on the spot. You don't want to increase your curve, so you bring out 2 3-drops for 2 other 3-drops. In general these games can play out a bit weird, as your primary goal is to bait their countermagic and hold yours so that you can push a Blood Moon through. If you have the Blood Moon with Force backup in hand, don't be afraid to let even a Young Pyro get countered.

Sulfur Elemental is specifically targetted at Death and Taxes and should need no introduction. If your meta is low on D&T, feel free to swap out this slot.

Smash to Smithereens is specifically for Stoneforge Mystic decks. As with the above, if your meta is low on this sort of thing, swap it out.

Submerge is for Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker decks. As above.

Anyway, I'm pretty happy with this list, and aside from the TNNs I'm not sure I want to change anything. I'm just leaving it here because it's been doing well for me and I wanted to share it in case others want a solid list.

[pg8]

Thinking about starting to build a UR delver variant, but I'd feel more comfortable with Dazes in the deck as opposed to Kory's all-in on burn plan. Is Daze any good in a build without Stifle/Wasteland? Or am I better off playing without PoP and adding in the mana denial to make Daze work? I'm assuming the answer to the second question is no.

[JDK]

Yes. no.

[Hopo]

No love for Andrew Schneider?

Nice games. I guess the Smelt/Smash to Smithereens debate continues.

[MGL]

Congrats to Andrew Schneider!

You played very well!

The probes sure proved to be a good choice over the dazes.

Watched every game and interview. What are the 2 cards within the 75 you were thinking of changing?

Cheers

[Lordofthestringz]

Congrats Andrew Schneider :)

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67031

I have been playing with a similar list and having nice results on my lgs

[Andrew.Schneider]

Thanks guys.



What are the 2 cards within the 75 you were thinking of changing?


No idea yet. I was just giving myself some room just in case hah.

[Andrew.Schneider]

I guess the Smelt/Smash to Smithereens debate continues.

I would never fault anyone for playing smash. Spell pierce just scares me more than chalice.

[syfilisx]

Congratulations to you Andrew. You were the reason I picked up a deck few years ago (Though I strayed from path to UR Nivmagus and later to UR Dreadstill) and you still manage to impress me with the solid results.

I remember that we had Smash vs Smelt discussion here back then already. I think europeans love their MUD-lists so much more, than you want Smash here, but you wealthy americans like to play Spell Pierce + Jitte/Batterskull/Sword of XY, so Smelt seems pretty good there. :smile:

[MGL]

I would never fault anyone for playing smash. Spell pierce just scares me more than chalice.

Yes it does make a lot of sense.

I noticed that because of spell pierce you also had loads of trouble to get your sulfuric vortex online. Any thoughts of making a small adjustment to the deck or simply run with it and force them to have it?

Also since we are talking about mana constraint... we didn't get to see all your matches but I was wondering how many time do you get or wish to cast snapcaster mage per game? I'm sold on having 3 MD but was wondering if you had any thoughts on this

Cheers

[Andrew.Schneider]

Yes it does make a lot of sense.

I noticed that because of spell pierce you also had loads of trouble to get your sulfuric vortex online. Any thoughts of making a small adjustment to the deck or simply run with it and force them to have it?

Also since we are talking about mana constraint... we didn't get to see all your matches but I was wondering how many time do you get or wish to cast snapcaster mage per game? I'm sold on having 3 MD but was wondering if you had any thoughts on this

Cheers

Vortex is a tough one to sneak in, but if it gets pierced you don't really lose on the spot. If your shatter gets pierced it actually is game over. Smash is awesome, I'm just conservative. If the game goes close to long, I want to draw 4 snapcasters hehe.

[MGL]

Vortex is a tough one to sneak in, but if it gets pierced you don't really lose on the spot. If your shatter gets pierced it actually is game over. Smash is awesome, I'm just conservative. If the game goes close to long want to draw 4 snapcasters hehe.

Yes I agree you can't win them all but if you had to chose the shatter is more important.

Going back to the snappy question, I understand the card advantage generated by snappy and the fact that going on three mana you tend to prioritise red over blue... 1 blue and 2 red source for obvious reason but for long games I find that snappy's body get more and more irrelevant and grim sometimes eats the graveyard pretty good... what's your thought of having 3 snappy and 1 TNN MD? I dunno there is something very appealing to me playing 1 TNN for long games along with PoPs and all that without daze... sorry I may be out for lunch but those probes over the daze kinda got me wondering if TNN could be a 1 of...

[Koby]

I could actually see replacing 1 SCM with either 1 Vendilion Clique or 1 TNN, depending on the decks you're trying to beat. However, I do agree that with Andrew that SCM is by far the best late game card in the deck. It provides a lot of aggression for one card.

[Andrew.Schneider]

Yes I agree you can't win them all but if you had to chose the shatter is more important.

Going back to the snappy question, I understand the card advantage generated by snappy and the fact that going on three mana you tend to prioritise red over blue... 1 blue and 2 red source for obvious reason but for long games I find that snappy's body get more and more irrelevant and grim sometimes eats the graveyard pretty good... what's your thought of having 3 snappy and 1 TNN MD? I dunno there is something very appealing to me playing 1 TNN for long games along with PoPs and all that without daze... sorry I may be out for lunch but those probes over the daze kinda got me wondering if TNN could be a 1 of...

But TNN is bad in the other scenarios where snapcaster is still awesome. Firm believer in all 4.

[Andrew.Schneider]

I could actually see replacing 1 SCM with either 1 Vendilion Clique or 1 TNN, depending on the decks you're trying to beat. However, I do agree that with Andrew that SCM is by far the best late game card in the deck. It provides a lot of aggression for one card.

Thats fair. Those could be better if you're targeting a specific deck.

[MGL]

Thats fair. Those could be better if you're targeting a specific deck.

Thanks for sharing your experience guys. I guess I'm too worried with SFM and spell pierce which are rampant in my meta. I thought one TNN would make the deck less soft to those but I agree that SCM makes the deck more explosive.

It is always fun to watch you guys play and this week-end was simply inspiring.

Congratz again!

[JDK]

Grats, Andrew!

@MGL
Daze helps to get Vortex into play and get to resolve Smash. :D
I'm inclined to try the deck without the Dazes and Smelt, though.

[MGL]

Grats, Andrew!

@MGL
Daze helps to get Vortex into play and get to resolve Smash. :D
I'm inclined to try the deck without the Dazes and Smelt, though.

After seeing Jacob Kory and Andrew pilot ur delver with quad probes I'm sold on the idea of making the switch

I never been a fan of daze in this deck which likes to race to 3 mana for snappy as Jacob mentioned a while ago

Now I just need to find 2 smelts lol

[Neffy]

I took this list to a 25-30 man tourny last night and went 4-1-1. Netting me my entry fee x3. I've been running the deck (or similar) before, but not much, but everytime I bring it, it actually goes really well!

4 GG
4 Delver
2 Grim
2 SCM

4 Bolt
4 Chains
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 BS
4 Daze
2 POP
3 Probe
1 Pierce

2 Island
2 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
4 Misty
4 Scalding
4 Volcanic Island

SB:
2 Smash to smithereens
1 Smelt
2 Blood Moon
1 POP
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Flusterstorm


The matches:
Affinity with white. I burn and attack him quickly before ravager becomes a problem. G2 He kills me with cranial on metalcraften Etched Champion. G3 i repeat G1. He is at 5 and i untap and shoot him with Grim + bolt. I lost game 2 because I needed one mana for Smash to smithereens. Wish id had been Smelt in that case. (I only found the smelt in the common box that i really wanted, after the games).
1-0

Tin Fins. I have played against this deck once before, but I had an idea what to do. Before the game he tells me how he just hates delver match ups, and I apologize when i go turn one delver with daze and FOW back up and win from there. G2 he destroys my hand with cabal therapy and triple thoughtseize. Griselbrand gets there. Didnt help either that he extirpated all FoW and Bolts (had 2 in hand) :(
G3 i dont get a creature in the start, and he entombs for Griselbrand. I think i counter his Goryo's and he destroys my freshly deployed delver/guide. I probe him at one point and see extirpate and cabal. I have surgical extraction in hand which I need for his Grisel in the yard. I He cabals me, response I surgical his brainstorms, and he takes my FoW and extirpates them (:D).. Next turn he tries to Goryo's again, but I snapcaster and flashback my surgical and begin beats.
2-0

MUD. Game one goes long with him getting life from wurmcoil and me attack with delver. PoP never gets the job done as he expects it and eventually he gets there. G2 i counter important stuff and land an early blood moon which screws him over. I win easily with everything.
G3 goes to time where he has chalice and sphere in play but draws nothing. I do have delver and guide attacking but he ends up with a lodestone and something else for blocker and none of us can win. We draw. I remember how i should have bolted my guide blocking a wurmcoil before damage, so he wouldnt get 6 life, which might have won me game 2. Boo-hoo..
2-0-1

4C loam. G1 i chain his Bob, daze a GSZ for a knight and double chain another knight, but he gets punishing fire combo going which i have nothing for. My plan was to draw PoP and flashback it with SCM, but I never drew either.
G2 He has everything and I have nothing. He takes away my blood moon with liliana :( and chalice locks me with sylvan, and creatures online.
2-1-1

RB pyromancer. Met a friend with his homebrew of rakdos pyromancer. Game one he kept a sad hand of 3 waste, 2 fetch, 2 probes. I have delver and accelerates. In the end he has a Bob which i let resolve because of his low life and it killed him in the end. He draws nothing really. G2 he sees way more action, with a lot of elemental tokens which kill me fast. I missed an elektrickery here...
G3 is almost the same as G1 expect he has a jitte on board but no dudes.
3-1-1

ID against RUG, but played it out against his other deck; Nic Fit. I lose horribly.....
4-1-1

MVPs:
Daze
Fast creatures
Blood moon
Burn spells
Surgical Extraction

The sideboard was really neat, but I am unsure of the artifact hate, as Smelt often dies to Chalice on 1, but Smash is expensive (standard discussion...)

All in all a very nice deck. I was surpised to see that Schneider did not use Daze. I think they were really good, though I know GG is dis-synergy to it.

Thanks!

[Stomping Grounds G&H]

I probably missed it - why Smelt over Shattering Spree?

[dsck]

I probably missed it - why Smelt over Shattering Spree?

Instant vs Sorcery

[PendelSteven]

Hello U/R Delver players!

I've fallen a bit in love with this deck lately. As my nonrotatingdecks are 1) Elves! (legacy of course) and 2) Melira-Pod (modern of course), it makes no sense at all why my 2nd Legacy deck I'm currently building is U/R Delver?

As I totally forgot to buy islandfetches when Onslaught was just out, it's not so easy for me to build it with fetches and looking in Modern at Splinter Twin has made me think:

What do you think about a manabase with Steaming Vents and Sulfer Falls? I know obviously the Vents should - eventually - be replaced by Volcanic Island, but you know... Second Legacy deck et al. The main issue is Sulfer Falls: it is definately a nonbo with everything you want to cast turn 1 and Price of Progress. However I threw 2 Gemstone Mine from back in the day in it and it occurs to me that this actually isn't that bad. By the time you want to cast Price of Progress you can actually tap the Mine for the third time first et voila: 2 less damage for you.

Thusfar I'm running a really, really basic build, but if you have any budget tips for me, please help, ok (also: do I really need those Flusterstorms in the board)?

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Goblin Guide (--> 4 is the obvious advice )
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shock (--> 4 Chain Lightnings is very much on my mind, thank you :))
2 Price Of Progress

4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Remand (effectively replaces the two Force of Wills that I will have later this year)

8 Island
7 Mountain
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Wasteland (?)
1 Terramorphic Expanse (!)

sideboard is very much in progress too:
2 Fireblast
1 Flamerift (!)
4 Lava Spike
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt (poor man's Surgical Extraction :P)



I personally think -2 Wasteland, +2 Fireblast maindeck is a better idea to start. Thanks in advance for some advice, especially prioritywise (1st lands 2nd snapcaster or the other way around for example).

[syfilisx]

Burst Lightning is better than Shock, even if neither is very good.
Forked bolt is pretty value, even if it is Sorcery, I would probably replace shocks with those.
Fire/Ice could also be replaced in one of those slots.

[PendelSteven]

Burst Lightning is better than Shock

Wow. It is actually strictly better than Shock! Man, how I wished I was playing Magic since Zendikar. I think I heard Reid Duke (re?)started back in Zendikar and basicly drafted all his modern fetchlands that season. Myeah... Sigh. But Burst Lightning is about € 1 for a playset, so basicly free :).



Forked bolt is pretty value, even if it is Sorcery, I would probably replace shocks with those
Well, I would never play four of them, but I can see two.


Fire/Ice could also be replaced in one of those slots
I think I'd rather add a single Electrolyze. Yeah, I know it's three mana, but basicly I divide cards in this deck in "1 mana" and "more than 1 mana" - and lands. And hey: Electrolyze can draw you that Lightning Bolt that you need.

I'll definately will order a pair Forked Bolts!

[Grillo]

I think I'd rather add a single Electrolyze. Yeah, I know it's three mana, but basicly I divide cards in this deck in "1 mana" and "more than 1 mana" - and lands. And hey: Electrolyze can draw you that Lightning Bolt that you need.

I'll definately will order a pair Forked Bolts!


Why don't you go with Rift Bolt and/or Lava Spike?
Also, get those goblin guides fast!

If you don't have the proper counters/creatures (I don't see Snapcaster Mage there), I think you have to make your deck as fast as possible. Basically make it look like a Burn deck with a splash of blue for delver and cantrips.

[MGL]

Guys what's our sideboard plan against nic shift?

Any advice on gameplan also?

Thanks

[PendelSteven]

Why don't you go with Rift Bolt and/or Lava Spike?
I like that Shock can bolt a creature. But I guess I will swap the Lava Spike from main to board and put the Shocks there.


Also, get those goblin guides fast!

Yeah. Yeah. I know they're in high demand. Make no worries, I have six (web)shops (including my LGS) where I keep track of how much cards they have left and based my orders from that. Might seem like a roundabout way, but the last thing you want is a deck without the cards which are the most in demand. Better put perhaps: I rather run my deck with 4 Goblin Guides and 4 Lava Spike than 2 GG, 4 Lava Spike and 2 Shock.


I don't see Snapcaster Mage there

Actually. Because I won the tourney last sunday I ordered one for free at my LGS. So virtually my decklist is +1 Snapcaster Mage, -1 Serum Visions. Seems a decent chunk better already, huh? :)

[sawatarix]

How good is goblin guide actually?
It maybe deals 4 damage (before it catches the removal) and generate cardadvantage for our opponent for R right?

If thats the case,even vexing devil is better...


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Falcry]

How good is goblin guide actually?
It maybe deals 4 damage (before it catches the removal) and generate cardadvantage for our opponent for R right?

If thats the case,even vexing devil is better...


It give you pieces of information on the opponent hand, which may help when counter-war is coming. GG is more fitted in a UR core than in a pure burn core deck.
Do not forget that GG may be synergic with Price of Progress.
Last but not least, it has haste, hence GG is a better top deck in many situation than vexing devil.