[Deck] U/R Delver

[Neffy]

I am playing the 4 SCM lists and am wondering the SB options.
Right now I am playing

2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
3 Smelt
1 Price of Progress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast

But im considering replacing a Smelt with a submerge, pierce (have 3 main), 3. flusterstorm or Envelop.

How do you deal with Goyfs from RUG, or RUG in general? DUal submerge in the Board? And what do you SB out?

Thanks

[sawatarix]

Ok, played in a local tournament and finished 1st after 4 rounds.

2:0 food chain
2:0 miracle
2:0 food chain
2:0 miracle

8:0:0 in games.
Well,not very diversified but anyway.

Deck: UR Delver by Kai Thiele

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:11
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells:31
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
2 Price of Progress
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Submerge

Snapcaster is huge,would like to have 5 copies of him.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Andrew.Schneider]

2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
3 Smelt
1 Price of Progress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast


Blood moon seems way out of place. The decks that this gets will lose to your prices anyway. Seems like a win more.

As for RUG, we can't beat a goyf or a mongoose. Submerge is meh, all it does is put a goyf on top for a turn while you still can't get through a mongoose. This is why I started playing the spike sideboard in the first place, an attempt to go around their big green dudes. Even with that plan if the RUG player understands the matchup, I'd rather not play it.

[Trei_gamer]

I am looking to buy into Legacy and already have many of the cards for this deck (UR is my favorite color pair by far), however I am lacking most of the large money cards namely: 4x FoW, 4x Wasteland, and 3-4x Volcanic Island.

I will be buying all of them in the nearish future but where do you recommend spending my first $500-800 dollars? Would it be worth it to just get the duals first or maybe 1 or 2 duals (and use Steam Vents in the mean time) and the FoW and Wastelands? I'd like to play this deck at my local cash legacy tourney, so where should I start?

[Grillo]

FOWs and Volcanics are key to make the deck work... but I'd start with the FOWs because it just sucks to get comboed turn one.

[Trei_gamer]

FOWs and Volcanics are key to make the deck work... but I'd start with the FOWs because it just sucks to get comboed turn one.

I see that Andrew Schneider's list doesn't even run the Wastelands? Instead it has 3x Arid Mesa? I'll admit I don't know enough about the archetype to understand that decision other than maybe thinking it's a list thats geared with far more aggression?

I ask because if I went this route, the Arid Mesa end up being cheaper than Wasteland (and I can use the Arid Mesa in Modern as I'm building UWR Control).

Think this is feasible or should I just get the Wastelands?

[Megadeus]

If your plan is to play this deck, Wasteland is not needed. You want your opponent to have non basic lands. Its makes price of progress that much better. I would pick up a volcanic, fetches, and as many forces as you can left over.

[Trei_gamer]

If your plan is to play this deck, Wasteland is not needed. You want your opponent to have non basic lands. Its makes price of progress that much better. I would pick up a volcanic, fetches, and as many forces as you can left over.

Just 1 Volcanic to start?

[HammafistRoob]

1 Volcanic, 2 Steam Vent, 8-10 fetches, and a pile of basics should work until you can get the rest of the Volcs. 4 Scalding Tarns are a must though, they're much more important than the extra duals since you mostly want basics in play anyways.

[Neffy]

Blood moon seems way out of place. The decks that this gets will lose to your prices anyway. Seems like a win more.

As for RUG, we can't beat a goyf or a mongoose. Submerge is meh, all it does is put a goyf on top for a turn while you still can't get through a mongoose. This is why I started playing the spike sideboard in the first place, an attempt to go around their big green dudes. Even with that plan if the RUG player understands the matchup, I'd rather not play it.


People dont use blood moon?

I am thinking if you can land it against RUG (difficult tho, maybe not best example), any BUG deck and even D&T, you are way ahead? And arent impacted by it.

[personalbackfire]

In the aggressive/burn version, do you board out Goblin Guides against decks with Top?

Thanks,
Steve

[sawatarix]

What do you mean by decks with top?
Miracle or also combodecks with top,say show and tell and doomsday?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Andrew.Schneider]

People dont use blood moon?

I am thinking if you can land it against RUG (difficult tho, maybe not best example), any BUG deck and even D&T, you are way ahead? And arent impacted by it.

Blood moon costs more mana than the cards they have that we can't beat. Not the best plan. Where as price can be cast at any point and pressures the same thing you want Blood moon for. I agree, playing a blood moon before they have a gofy out is probably game over but it seems that in those scenarios we're probably doing okay anyway. You can get your wins from those matchups without dedicating those slots to blood moon. Does that make sense?

This feels similar to explaining why surgical is a bad magic card unless they're doing something really unfair. heh.

And D&T has a million plains and vial. Sure they can't port you, but were not the kind of deck that really gets beat by waste/port anyway.

[Andrew.Schneider]

In the aggressive/burn version, do you board out Goblin Guides against decks with Top?

Thanks,
Steve

Assuming miracles.

Nope, we can't give up the aggression. Obviously its not fun watching them draw an extra card every turn, but its hard for them to cast all their cards if they're dead :)

[Andrew.Schneider]

Think this is feasible or should I just get the Wastelands?

If you want to play the burn heavy version you 100% don't need wasteland. If you want to be able to switch to rug/uwr in the future then yeah, you'll need them eventually.

[personalbackfire]

What do you mean by decks with top?
Miracle or also combodecks with top,say show and tell and doomsday?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I was wondering in general but mostly against Miracles and Junk midrange type decks that run it.

Thanks Andrew for responding regarding Miracles!

[sawatarix]

Yep you cannot start to grind against miracles with slow "controlish" hands - just crush them with an overload of aggression and drop a vortex in the lategame - gg

By the way,I don't play goblin guide in my deck but thats another story.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[JDK]

What do you mean by decks with top?
Miracle or also combodecks with top,say show and tell and doomsday?

In most cases it doesn't matter whether it's Miracles or SnT/DDFT. You need cheap beaters to keep the aggression up.

Against some weird Midrange builds with Top you can board out GGs. I could see myself doing it on the draw, but it really depends on what I am up against. Usually I don't want to swap out GGs.

btw please use the signature forum feature (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/profile.php?do=editsignature) instead of putting this obnoxious stuff into every post of yours. It's really annoying when quoting.

[NathanS2k]

btw please use the signature forum feature (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/profile.php?do=editsignature) instead of putting this obnoxious stuff into every post of yours. It's really annoying when quoting.

qft

[mikeisgo]

I've been playing around with a list pretty much based on what Andrew Schneider's winning list from SCG Knox. I really love playing the deck so far. One question I have centers a bit around the 9th burn spell. Forked Bolt did the job in Knoxville, but I started playing with Fire / Ice, and also have considered Izzet Charm as something that could go in there. Honestly the first reason I did this, is I don't actually own any Forked Bolts right now (i know they're cheap, they're in the mail to me right now, local stores didn't have them in the commons bins, how dare they!!). Anyway in playing I've run into a few interesting situations where having the utility of the Fire // Ice being able to draw a card actually put me in a position to win against an esper deck. It essentially let me delay along with digging to get another card. It also accomplishes what Forked Bolt does, except it cost 1R instead of just R.

Anyway I was looking at people's opinions relating to pro's and con's of using either of those 3, here's my take so far:

Izzet Charm: It lets you loot, its instant, it kills stoneforge and deathrite, its an extra (but more expensive) spell pierce, and it pitches to FOW. It does not go to the face, and of course its more expensive than forked bolt, it can't hit two targets, and requires you have both colors to use it...

Forked Bolt: its a 1 mana burn spell that hits for 2 along with being able to target two things, which makes it much easier to snapcaster mage cast it for value. Its the most efficient thing to be an analogy of lightning bolt. It doesn't pitch to FOW, and its sorcery speed, which since it can target two things, makes it better than shock for certain situations where you want that utility.

Fire // Ice: It does what forked bolt does for 2 mana, its instant, its also slows down people, by tapping Goyf or Batterskull. It can draw you a card and it pitches to FOW. You can get utility out of it even if you are shut off from one or the other color. All this though makes it more expensive and harder to cast when you really need it.

Anyway. I think it comes kind of down to what you want to do and what types of decks you are facing. I'm also looking for peoples opinions on what else might be interesting to fit into this sort of slot.

[Andrew.Schneider]

I've been playing around with a list pretty much based on what Andrew Schneider's winning list from SCG Knox. I really love playing the deck so far. One question I have centers a bit around the 9th burn spell. Forked Bolt did the job in Knoxville, but I started playing with Fire / Ice, and also have considered Izzet Charm as something that could go in there. Honestly the first reason I did this, is I don't actually own any Forked Bolts right now (i know they're cheap, they're in the mail to me right now, local stores didn't have them in the commons bins, how dare they!!). Anyway in playing I've run into a few interesting situations where having the utility of the Fire // Ice being able to draw a card actually put me in a position to win against an esper deck. It essentially let me delay along with digging to get another card. It also accomplishes what Forked Bolt does, except it cost 1R instead of just R.

Anyway I was looking at people's opinions relating to pro's and con's of using either of those 3, here's my take so far:

Izzet Charm: It lets you loot, its instant, it kills stoneforge and deathrite, its an extra (but more expensive) spell pierce, and it pitches to FOW. It does not go to the face, and of course its more expensive than forked bolt, it can't hit two targets, and requires you have both colors to use it...

Forked Bolt: its a 1 mana burn spell that hits for 2 along with being able to target two things, which makes it much easier to snapcaster mage cast it for value. Its the most efficient thing to be an analogy of lightning bolt. It doesn't pitch to FOW, and its sorcery speed, which since it can target two things, makes it better than shock for certain situations where you want that utility.

Fire // Ice: It does what forked bolt does for 2 mana, its instant, its also slows down people, by tapping Goyf or Batterskull. It can draw you a card and it pitches to FOW. You can get utility out of it even if you are shut off from one or the other color. All this though makes it more expensive and harder to cast when you really need it.

Anyway. I think it comes kind of down to what you want to do and what types of decks you are facing. I'm also looking for peoples opinions on what else might be interesting to fit into this sort of slot.

I'd love to play Fire // Ice in that spot. I just think its important to kill the turn 1 Deathrite. That slot could actually be anything.

[beez]

It all comes down to anything costing more than one may cost another game turn and is more difficult to Flashback with Snapcaster Mage. I do like playing with a couple of Fire//Ice though, primarily because it pitches to Force of Will. Most of the time the damage you could get by tapping down a blocker is just better to go straight to the dome. Sometimes though, if you tap a Goyf or something down before their attack phase and cantrip into a Bolt or something and save 4+ damage to you plus possible lifelink for them and possibly allow a couple more from a Guide, can be more of a value in point swing than what you always have to measure it by: is this messing about on the board better than just 3 to the dome? Occasionally yes, so I like two of them, and plus not having another blue for Force can be a problem sometimes.

Turn//Burn is also interesting, though I've yet to use it. The mana for fuse would be very late game or flooded so that ability is not wourth considering much on it's merits. Burn is not as good as some of the other direct damage, but Turn is kind of interesting for Goblin Guide which gets real bad after a couple if turns. You can just keep attacking with him every turn and dare them to block with a Goyf. After it gets turned into a 0/1 and killed once they may be wary of blocking the Guide again, allowing you to bluff with a card in hand and attack with him every turn with impunity. Perhaps corner cases of responding to a creature activation with it can also be useful. And it pitches to Force. The question, as always, is it better than just 3 more to the dome or an extra mana for Snapcaster?

[Tormod]

btw please use the signature forum feature (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/profile.php?do=editsignature) instead of putting this obnoxious stuff into every post of yours. It's really annoying when quoting.

qft

qft x2

[Neffy]

The ability to flashback a forkbolt seems really appealing to me and I will try one (I am running 3 spell pierce rather than 2 - Im afraid of chalices, etc)

I have a question to the 3 Lava spikes in the board of Andrew Schneiders deck.
What situations/decks do you board them in against?

I could imagine using them against decks packing large creatures like Goyf, etc?

[sawatarix]

Oh sry i thought this is the signature forum,then i should be wrong here.

@topic:
It seems that lavaspike comes in against decks where force of will is not needed,say delver decks in general.
(The deck becomes a burn deck)
What i kinda dislike about spike is that it can only deal damage to a player,not to a creature.
Maybe fireblast is another option?(the downside is the dissynergy with snapcaster)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Neffy]

Oh sry i thought this is the signature forum,then i should be wrong here.

@topic:
It seems that lavaspike comes in against decks where force of will is not needed,say delver decks in general.
(The deck becomes a burn deck)
What i kinda dislike about spike is that it can only deal damage to a player,not to a creature.
Maybe fireblast is another option?(the downside is the dissynergy with snapcaster)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

What if you took 3 forkbolt in the board instead? same speed, 1 less damage, can hit creatures, can be divided, same cost.

[JDK]

Oh sry i thought this is the signature forum,then i should be wrong here.
You know it is annoying and if you really didn't, you've been told by several people by now. No need to act like a pubertal kid and go full douche-mode. Just put it in your signature, problem solved. Move along.


@topic:
It seems that lavaspike comes in against decks where force of will is not needed,say delver decks in general.
(The deck becomes a burn deck)
What i kinda dislike about spike is that it can only deal damage to a player,not to a creature.
Maybe fireblast is another option?(the downside is the dissynergy with snapcaster)
I'm still not sold on Lava Spike, but Fireblast doesn't suite the deck very well, as you want to be able to use Snapcaster Mage to its fullest extent (as you've already pointed out yourself). It also often restricts your manabase, since you cannot fetch for basic Islands as easily anymore, if you incorporate Fireblast.

@Neffy
Lava Spike is better than Forked Bolt against Goyf decks, since it's better at racing them.

[dog_koko]

What about Thunderous Wrath?
I used to have 3 in my main deck and they were great against "big creatures"

[Neffy]

What about Thunderous Wrath?
I used to have 3 in my main deck and they were great against "big creatures"

Same argument here, as for Fireblast. You cannot Flashback it, and it is very situational. With Brainstorm it is a deadcard in any starting hand.

[JDK]

What about Thunderous Wrath?
I used to have 3 in my main deck and they were great against "big creatures"

Not again....just use the search function.

[Andrew.Schneider]

The ability to flashback a forkbolt seems really appealing to me and I will try one (I am running 3 spell pierce rather than 2 - Im afraid of chalices, etc)

I have a question to the 3 Lava spikes in the board of Andrew Schneiders deck.
What situations/decks do you board them in against?

I could imagine using them against decks packing large creatures like Goyf, etc?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNkgVuIGiUM

[mikeisgo]

I'd love to play Fire // Ice in that spot. I just think its important to kill the turn 1 Deathrite. That slot could actually be anything.

Yeah i think you have a great point about turn 1 deathrite shaman.

Someone else suggested Turn / Burn. I really wish the Burn half of Turn/Burn just cost 'R' instead of 1R, if it was cheaper, i could easily see that being up there with forked bolt.

[Trei_gamer]

I finally put most of this deck together and brought it to my local cash legacy tourney to a 3-0-1 finish with and ID in my last round. I'm $60 buck richer! This deck feels really good and right where I should be playing.

I am playing pretty close to the list Andrew Schneider won SCGKNOX with but I cut a Git Probe and FoW for 2x Daze (only have 3 FoW right now).

2-0 against MUD
2-1 against Esper Deathblade (I drew 9 of my fetches the game I lost)
2-0 against UWr Miracles
ID against BUG Delver

I have a few questions about sideboarding.

When is it appropriate to board out FoW for Lava Spikes, just in the fair matchups? Last night I boarded them out (and Daze) against Esper and Miracles but kept them in against MUD.

Is it ever appropriate to board out Goblin Guide? Decks with Top seems to be able to take special advantage of him, however boarding him out can significantly reduce the pressure I can apply.

[Michael Keller]

I'll be bringing U/R Delver to my local tonight.

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[syfilisx]

I feel like you just scoop to Counterbalance in Miracles matchup, so I would not probably side them out, depends really how many blasts you have to take in, but I myself feel with UR Dreadstill that I want blasts and the FOWs.

[seilaquem]

I finally put most of this deck together and brought it to my local cash legacy tourney to a 3-0-1 finish with and ID in my last round. I'm $60 buck richer! This deck feels really good and right where I should be playing.

I am playing pretty close to the list Andrew Schneider won SCGKNOX with but I cut a Git Probe and FoW for 2x Daze (only have 3 FoW right now).

2-0 against MUD
2-1 against Esper Deathblade (I drew 9 of my fetches the game I lost)
2-0 against UWr Miracles
ID against BUG Delver

I have a few questions about sideboarding.

When is it appropriate to board out FoW for Lava Spikes, just in the fair matchups? Last night I boarded them out (and Daze) against Esper and Miracles but kept them in against MUD.

Is it ever appropriate to board out Goblin Guide? Decks with Top seems to be able to take special advantage of him, however boarding him out can significantly reduce the pressure I can apply.

1st of all, congrats on your finish =)

about sideboarding, you gotta keep in mind that u are a (bad =X) burn. but being a bad burn on a fair matchup is just as troublesome as a burn deck.

so, you should board out FoWs when they are not very relevant (delver, jund, maverick and such matchups)

when you face decks that you can get blown out by one card alone (blightsteel, chalice, reanimate, show and tell... you get the drift), you play the game trying to pressure the opp and disrupt whatever he is trying to do.

that being said, you can't remove your pressure, since you only get to burn your opp 11 times. (assuming 4 bolt, 4 chain, 3 spikes)

if thing go well, you pressure the opp enough that 4 burn spells get the job done =)

(i dont play this deck often, so i hope i didnt say anything stupid =X)

[Michael Keller]

X-0'd the local with my Pyromancer-Delver list, without dropping a game in the Swiss.

2-0: Belcher
2-0: Punishing Jund
2-0: Affinity
2-0: U/R Painter

Deck was super-solid all the way around the board. I'll get a list up later.

[cab0747]

X-0'd the local with my Pyromancer-Delver list, without dropping a game in the Swiss.

2-0: Belcher
2-0: Punishing Jund
2-0: Affinity
2-0: U/R Painter

Deck was super-solid all the way around the board. I'll get a list up later.

I have been looking for a solid Pyromancer-Delver list since I saw Eric Rill playing it. If you could post your list and some match details, I would appreciate it!

[Michael Keller]

So, I wanted to try and approach the archetype in somewhat of a different manner. I've been secretly piloting U/R Delver variants on the side, so I decided to bring this one out of the woodwork and see how well it could perform in a relatively diverse local meta.

First, here's the list I currently have sleeved up and what I played last night:

4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
2 Flusterstorm

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Gut Shot
1 Dismember

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Mountain
3 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Hydroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Annul
2 Divert
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Let me make a few comments about the list before I go into the small report:

First and foremost, this deck's fabric was designed to compete more with the local meta, which while diverse, is usually fairly predictable. There are some changes I would easily make to the list if I were to take it to a larger event and compete with it, but for the most part it functioned extremely well. Some of the card choices can be plug-and-play, like the main-deck Flusterstorms and sideboard Jitte. I tried giving the deck an honest balance of offense and defense, as opposed to overloading in one area. Young Pyromancer is an offense-minded card that can generate an army in a hurry.

This brings me to my next point: free spells. Cards like Probe and Gut Shot make Pyromancer fire on all cylinders. In conjunction with Snapcaster Mage you can get value in a hurry. I was shocked at Gut Shot's power in this deck, which can create a massive swing on the board state in a hurry. There were times when cards like Chain Lightning would have sufficed better, and they'll surely find a spot in the sixty in some multiples.

Here were the match-ups with twenty folks slinging spells:

Round One vs. Belcher [2-0]

Both games came down to Force of Will just blowing him out on key spells. He did resolve a Belcher game one, but had no mana to activate it. I Wasted his Taiga and countered any attempt to generate mana, including Chrome Mox. Delver and Snapcaster provided the power and redundancy in counters to finish him in very short order.

Round Two vs. Punishing Jund [2-0]

Game one was a battle of attrition that really came down to counters locking up the game and Delver going to town. Young Pyromancer provided the gummed-up board state, and I was able to burn him out with a Snapcaster-Bolt for the win.

Game two was very short. He attempted a turn one DRS, which resolved. I had Delver in play in the early going, and at one point he activates DRS to exile a land from my graveyard, taps his Forest and tries Punishing Fire on my Delver. With only a single mana open, I Divert it to his DRS. He slouches. I Waste his Bayou and pass. At this point he's stuck on mana and can only muster up basic Forest, Waste, Waste. I proceed to beat him down mercilessly with Delver and friends. He can't recover in time, and yet again Bolt seals the deal.

Round Three vs. Affinity [2-0]

My opponent starts off my dumping a few guys turn one and a land and passes. I land Delver. He tries Plating, and it's Dazed. I then flip Delver, kill his creatures and Waste his land. This cripples him as he cannot draw another mana source until it's too late. I am able to Gut Shot his Memnites twice with Snapcaster, and generate tokens off Pyromancer. I beat him down with my guys with heavy counter back-up.

Game two I brought in the obvious choices that deal with a deck like Affinity. He lands Chalice on one turn one. It resolves. I eventually land Pyromancer x2, and that with spells that are countered still gum the board up heavy enough that I'm able to power through his guys and beat him down for the win. I did Waste him out too, which kept him down. He took some damage off an Ancient Tomb, which softened him up nicely for the kill. Jitte and Clique joined the party and it was over.

Round Four vs. U/R Painter [2-0]

Game one he keeps a questionable hand, and I'm able to Bolt out his Painter, Waste him early and beat down with a flipped Delver for a few turns until it gets Blasted. By that time, it didn't matter: Snapcaster finished him off with Bolt to the dome. I Dismembered his Painter's Servants twice, which was pretty cool. I Forced pitching a land to protect my second attempt at killing the Scarecrow.

In comes the Surgical Extraction, and we get an attrition war going. I Gut Shot Welder when he activates it to bring Painter into play after casting Intuition, which resolved beforehand. I then Brainstorm, and Surgical sent his Scarecrows packing and earning an immediate concession as he had no other way to win. Interesting.

I drew the last round and lost in the Top 4 to another U/R variant where I couldn't hit my removal, but he managed to hit his. I'm at work now, so I'll likely update this post later with what I'd change and how I'd make adjustments going forward. The deck was very aggressive, and I missed at least another few burn spells. But I wanted to go a more permission-based route, as opposed to doming opponents with the deck with burn spells. That was possibly a mistake on my part, which I didn't want my record in the Swiss to mask as a flaw.

I'll make adjustments and comment later on what changes I'd make.

[Michael Keller]

One-upped the performance from the local from last week by finishing the job and winning the event this week. I felt extremely comfortable with the changes, and their application came into significant use during the course of this tournament.

To start, here was the list I ran with:

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Gut Shot
1 Fire/Ice

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
2 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Hydroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Divert
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique

...And here are the results of my match-ups:

1-2 vs. Belcher
2-1 vs. Manaless Dredge
2-0 vs. Sneak and Show
2-0 vs. Death and Taxes
2-0 vs. U/R Pyromancer

Belcher

The first game saw me mulligan to five cards in order to see if I could land a Force and blue card for the blowout. I wasn't able to find them, but I did have a decent keep with some action. Unfortunately, my opponent was on the play and managed to make a lot of tokens turn one that I couldn't stop.

Game two saw a Force of Will for the blowout, and a Delver with Snapcaster ran his life total from 20 to 0.

The third and deciding game saw me once again mulligan to five cards, and when I couldn't land a Force, I decided to keep because my hand was still decent. My opponent had tanked for a while looking at his hand in discomfort, which made me think he was either contemplating going all-in, or praying the top card of his library was really good. He dropped a Belcher turn one with no way to activate it. I manage to stick a few threats and beat his life total down for a few turns. He has a Chrome Mox that makes red, and I have two Hydroblasts in hand. He stares lethal on board at five life and I passed the turn. After Probing him, I know his only out is Lion's Eye Diamond. He draws Lion's Eye Diamond, activates Belcher and a Taiga is twelve cards deep and good enough for him to win.

Wasn't overly pleased with that outcome, but vindication was in sight.

Manaless Dredge

Oh, the irony. The first game was a mess and I basically played as well and tight as I could to steal a win. My opponent is terrified because he knows who I am and is scared knowing I know how to play against and beat the deck. I can't do much game one, so I actually concede and move on to game two.

The second game saw a Surgical Extraction remove multiple dumped Trolls from a Phantasmagorian, which turned out to be a blowout, It got even worse for him with the Snapcaster in my hand and a freshly drawn Cage from the top. The game was over turn three.

In game three, I mulligan to six with a solid keep that has Surgical and Delver in hand. I manage to cripple his graveyard early, and combat tricks with a recently-cast Pyromancer allowed me to knock off his Bridges and stave off damage. This enabled me to shoot a few Bolts at his head and finish him off with Insectile Aberration.

Sneak and Show

I open the game up with multiple counters and a Delver of Secrets. My opponent's keep was average, as I Probed him and saw his cards. Delver rode to the finish line after Flusterstorm and Forces kept him off Show and Tell, with Daze helping against Sneak Attack.

Game two was rather anticlimactic, as my opponent mulliganed to six with a potential turn-two Show and Tell into Emrakul. However, I snap-kept my hand - which concerned him. This tactic actually worked, as I telegraphed a Daze or Force in my hand without actually having them. He passed turn two without a play, which made me feel good. I draw a Force off the top, which was huge. Pyromancer and Delver were able to beat him down, and after we fought early over a Show and Tell, he could not beat Red Blast and Force. He also tried Sneak Attack, which met Hydroblast. This was enough to seal the deal.

Death and Taxes

Game one was actually really fast - burn was able to keep his threats in check and Fire/Ice came up huge - knocking off two one-toughness dudes. Vial met Daze early. After he ran out of steam, Young Pyromancer was able to clog the board up and attack him out for the win. Delver also joined the party a little later to flip and win the game.

The second game was very close. My opponent landed a turn-one Mom, but Gut Shot was able to knock out those shenanigans. My opponent tried the turn-two Stoneforge, which I Dazed. Delver flipped and beat my opponent down a few turns before it was sent farming. At this point in time, my opponent had Thalia and Flickerwisp in play. I had managed to Preordain into Fire and Ice, which was a blowout. After this, a True-Name Nemesis was able to ride out the win for his remaining life points - but a Bolt to the dome sealed the deal.

U/R Pyromancer

Against my good friend Doug. We have a cantripping battle to start the game off, both of us sculpting our hands. Doug can't really get anything going early, so he Bolts down a few of my guys and I manage to knock off a few of his dudes. I play a little more conservatively, which winds up being a good thing as I fill my hand with action. I eventually land a Pyromancer, which sticks. After he lands Jace and I let it resolve, he Brainstorms with a single fetch up. I attack Jace down to a single counter and proceed to Gut Shot it out. I make a few tokens and he kills the Pyromancer. I get him down to five life after he tanks and lets a Bolt resolve. I attack him the next turn, putting him to three. I bring in Snapcaster and try the Bolt for the win. Doug Forces, I Force back. He extends the hand, and I show him an additional Force with blue card.

Game two was a little more grindy. I kept a hand with a Mountain and some burn with Lavamancer. Doug throughout this game has little action, but plenty of filter [odd]. At any rate, I managed to close the game out when I try two Delvers, letting one die. Lavamancer kept him a little off balance early, and it was promptly killed once an attack went through. A Jace was eventually Bolted, which went through. Eventually, the one Insectile Aberration that survived his defenses goes the distance with an Umezawa's Jitte. He had eventually landed a Koth, which ultimately didn't matter. He only had one Mountain in play and wasn't pinging me or my dudes out even if he had survived that long. He gets a few swings in, but my life total was still healthy and I had counters to either gain life or knock off Koth - if I really wanted to [which I didn't]. Doug looks at his cards and extends the hand when Jitte and the Insectile prove their mettle.

I think the deck performed extremely well and I was very pleased with the configuration. Eighteen lands was definitely good enough with the Brainstorms and Preordains, and while some folks like Ponder more, I feel that in this variation of U/R that the filter is key to help me with quality looks and smooth draws. It has worked surprisingly well thus far.

As for changes, I'll look at the deck some more and see if there's anything I'd swap out. If I do, it would probably be more in the sideboard than the main. There weren't a lot of Goyfs in this meta today, so I subbed out Dismember for Fire/Ice - which was clearly the right call. Deck was fun to play and has proven to be very competitive in its initial conception.

[JPoJohnson]

I'd always thought about Gut Shot in a deck with Pyromancer. Obviously in the examples above it was never an issue, but have you found that so many Phyrexian Spells were too taxing at any point? Also, what is the plan for a deck such as RUG/UWR/BUG Delver where they stick a threat that is difficult to overcome such as Tarm or TNN?

[Michael Keller]

I'd always thought about Gut Shot in a deck with Pyromancer. Obviously in the examples above it was never an issue, but have you found that so many Phyrexian Spells were too taxing at any point? Also, what is the plan for a deck such as RUG/UWR/BUG Delver where they stick a threat that is difficult to overcome such as Tarm or TNN?

Manage your Lightning Bolts properly. Gut Shot can also finish the job in some instances. Gumming up the board with tokens can create intricate combat situations, forcing the player to break through your wall of tokens and possibly opening themselves up for a nice crack-back.

Dismember is a thing, as well. The Phyrexian-mana spells can be hard cast if need be, so no they are definitely not taxing.

As far as TNN goes, it is what it is, and it's obviously difficult to stop. Some archetypes have more difficulty than others. Curfew is a major contender right now in my list to make the cut again. The combat tricks are limitless with Snapcaster Mage and Pyromancer, while inhibiting fast aggro or untargetable creatures like TNN and Emrakul.

Combine that with Snapcaster Mage and you're looking at value city.

[JPoJohnson]

That is not a card I've seen before. I really like that as an answer to Sneak and Show/Painter/Tempo/Tricks. It feels like a good fit in this deck in several different circumstances. I'll have to test it in my UR version.

[Michael Keller]

That is not a card I've seen before. I really like that as an answer to Sneak and Show/Painter/Tempo/Tricks. It feels like a good fit in this deck in several different circumstances. I'll have to test it in my UR version.

It's actually insanely good in the deck, the only problem is identifying what slots to flex out in a given tournament. Curfew is a card that by itself is relatively innocuous. But when you start meshing it into the configuration with Snapcasters and Young Pyromancers, it gets extremely good. Assuming my opponent who was on Sneak and Show decided they wanted to run out Emrakul on turn two with the Show, Curfew would have been amazing. I actually had it in my other list, but after testing it for the last few weeks and seeing how good it can be it's very hard to not play one or two in this deck.

The only downside is its counter-productivity with Delver, but that is highly unusual given the quantity of Curfews and the more likely advantageous interaction between eight (nine if you also count Clique) of your creatures. Curfew with Pyromancer is great, because you can resolve the trigger first and bounce your token while your opponent is stuck with possibly no dude in play. This gives you a turn to draw, attack, filter or burn out an opponent. It's also annoying against Goyf because a good amount of time folks whose decks play Goyf tend to sometimes not run them out on turn two in fear of counter-magic or removal (we're talking turn two here).

In this instance, Curfew is even better because it ships the Goyf back to their hand and buys you two turns before it can even attack - let alone resolve. The interaction with Clique is also awesome. Bouncing both your Clique and an opponent's creature to their hand only to watch it get shipped to the bottom of their deck is incredible. All the while, you have a 3/1 flyer and they have zilch.

I like its application at two - three max - but definitely not four.

[Flojo82]

If u Play Curfew which Card did u Cut in your Last List?

[beez]

Do you swap out the TNN for Clique at 3cc depending on matchup, or are there cases where you may have both in, though a bit expensive?

[JPoJohnson]

If u Play Curfew which Card did u Cut in your Last List?

Curfew is a card i would only play in certain metas, and even in that instance I could see it only being sideboarded as well.

[Michael Keller]

Do you swap out the TNN for Clique at 3cc depending on matchup, or are there cases where you may have both in, though a bit expensive?

Clique comes in against combo-esque decks, while TNN stays for the control mirror and other aggro strategies as an unstoppable threat. You can keep both in if you want under certain circumstances; it's not hard to find three mana in the deck with as much draw and filter that exists. You basically grind out the attrition war early and go to town during the mid to late game.

[Angelteg]

did a little digging but couldn't find an answer to this, looking at Michael keller's list, why the love for Preordain over Ponder?

[Michael Keller]

did a little digging but couldn't find an answer to this, looking at Michael keller's list, why the love for Preordain over Ponder?

I was initially split on running Ponder over Preordain, but in testing - and especially with Preordain's ability to grant card quality over quantity - I felt the advantages were weighted in favor of it over Ponder. I was finding scenarios in testing where I didn't like seeing one card I liked and the other two being less than stellar in a given scenario. This has never occurred since playing Preordain, which not only ensures I'm getting quality, but shifting unneeded cards to the bottom of my deck where they won't show up again like they could in a Ponder shuffle.

I'm not saying Ponder is better than Preordain - both are amazing at what they do. However, in a Young Pyromancer deck, I think Preordain shines more. At least in my build it has and does.

Perhaps this should fill a thread that's more to do with U/R Pyromancer and opposed to U/R Delver - even though Delver is a featured weapon in the deck.

[oblivion4560]

I'll be happy to oblige. Here is my UR Delver Deck Tech/Primer that features Young Pyromancer:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18t7Rq3CR271NqxKDxsYLSq_G3mDmyLI6Cel3ADE8kKA/edit?usp=sharing

The article also has a tournament report of my 11th place finish at the SCGO in Columbus two weeks ago with the deck.

[Michael Keller]

Continued the streak with my new Pyromancer list. Won the local event tonight, going 6-1 in the process.

Here was what I played, for reference:


4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Gut Shot
1 Fire / Ice

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
2 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Divert
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Meltdown
1 Vendilion Clique

Here were the match-ups I faced:

Round [1]: vs. Zoo [W 2-0]
Round [2]: vs. T.E.S. [Bryant] [L 1-2]
Round [3]: vs. Death and Taxes [W 2-0]
Round [4]: vs. Manaless Dredge [W 2-1]
Round [5]: vs. U/R Pyromancer [W 2-0]
Top Four: vs. R/W/U Delver Patriot [W 2-0]
Finals: vs. T.E.S. [Bryant] [W 2-1]

At any rate, the list performed solidly as usual. The sideboard is currently tailored to combat the local meta, but that will likely change outside that venue. The addition of a few more Chain Lightning and the subtraction of Lavamancer and Nemesis felt comfortable. I liked having the additional means to remove troublesome threats, as generally Delver or Pyromancer do enough on their own to seal games down with counter backup.

Other things noted:

a.) I am really enjoying the graveyard hate out of the board the way it's setup. Snapcaster not only gives Surgical redundancy, but it completely washes decks reliant on not only reanimation strategies, but alternate strategies such as Punishing Fire, Loam, etc. I've found them to be invaluable in the combo match-up as well against niche archetypes, so they'll likely stay at four.

b.) Gut Shot was awesome as usual. It completely owns the Delver mirror and finishes off planeswalkers for that critical last point of damage. Tie that in with the amazing synergy with Young Pyromancer and you've got a deadly package. I can't say how many times I've loved seeing this card.

c.) The move from Pierces main and Flusterstorms side was an obviously correct call as their general application is much more diverse against other decks.

d.) I cut a Blue Blast and stuck with the one out of the board, as red decks don't really dominate my local meta. Ironically, it proved to be the game winner in game three of the finals against Bryant and T.E.S.

I'll keep tinkering around with it some more, but up to this point I don't see how much more I can change in the interim with the way the deck has performed. I'm sure some cards will rotate in and out from tournament to tournament, but up to this point I'm very happy with this list.

[beez]

Thanks, Hollywood. Love the list. I guess the singleton Spell Snare and Fire/Ice are doing the work. Can't wait to try it soon, though I may try to work a Lavamancer back in there to sweep up a bit.

[danpo]

Went 4-0 at Eudemonia in Berkeley the other week. I meant to post earlier but got distracted. Walking into an unknown meta, I figured it’d be good to kill Deathrite Shaman on sight and also frequently steal games from men at six life. Hence a decision to play eight Bolts, a big three copies of Price of Progress and 4x Snapcaster Mage.

It looked like this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Mountain

SB:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Gilded Drake
2 Flusterstorm

R1: Beat a brew involving Deathrite Shaman, Aether Vial, Meddling Mage, Bob and Batterskull. My opponent got land-screwed when his Brainstorm revealed no land and no shuffle, locking him for two turns. Plus I killed his Deathrite. Sorry dude, I’m lame.

R2: Went to game three against Death & Taxes. Grim Lavamancer did work, keeping Mom down, and I drew my singleton Sulfur Elemental both post-board games—having that guy makes me feel like a jerk.

Anyway, G3 against D&T my opponent gets out Batterskull at 13 life. I have Grim Lavamancer, and after drawing I'm holding Price of Progress for 8, plus Chain Lightning in my hand.

Theoretically I have the potential here to shoot Batterskull with Lavamancer and finish the germ off with Chain, but in my head, I'm thinking fuck it, I'll just go to the dome and kill him this turn—meanwhile I’m neglecting that I only have two red sources on the board. So I Price him to 5, realize I botched and only have one red source left, do a little more damage to his face and say go, thinking I've just thrown away the match as he crashes in with Batterskull.

But! Next turn I just get fiendishly lucky, topdeck Snapcaster Mage, and flashback Price to finish the job and salvage the match. Well played, sir.

R3: I’m against Painter’s Servant/Grindstone. The R/W version with Enlightened Tutor. As I remember this, I lost the first game really quickly, but took over post-board, bringing in Smash to Smithereens and, on a lark, Pyroblast. This works for me once or twice because he’s naming Blue with Painter’s Servant. I think he also gets flooded one of these games, for rub-ins.

R4: We agree to split the prize and play for bragging rights. I’m against Storm Combo, which my opponent says he’s not very experienced with, and I remember just astonishingly little about this match other than managing to draw Flusterstorm a lot and having to be smart about using Brainstorm to skirt his hand-hate, and still ultimately only winning because I got some damage in quick and his Ad Nauseum wasn’t exactly what he needed in time.

-

Overall I was really happy with the mainboard. It’s tempting to imagine the sideboard dropping Sulfur Elemental and Gilded Drake for some broader options like Electrickery and Vendilion Clique, but I don’t have my mind made up.

I am curious about the builds on this thread that drop Grim Lavamancer and replace Goblin Guide with Young Pyromancer, and also switch from Price of Progress to a Wasteland plan. Young Pyro seems temptingly fun and is cooler than Goblin Guide, but also seems sometimes grindy and slower, and susceptible to such stiff breezes as Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution and so on.

And while of course Wasteland is good, I think being resilient to it is better, alongside exploiting all the Legacy decks that jam the down payment on a house into their manabase. Thoughts?

[Neffy]

Continued the streak with my new Pyromancer list. Won the local event tonight, going 6-1 in the process.

Here was what I played, for reference:


4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Gut Shot
1 Fire / Ice

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
2 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Divert
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Meltdown
1 Vendilion Clique



Nice list, i will try it myself. I love the 4 surgicals!
I am however failing to understand why you would non-bo the snapcasters with the grafdiggers? Dont you feel the dissynergy? With no Lavamancers, could the grafdiggers be replaced by Relics of Prog.?

[Michael Keller]

Nice list, i will try it myself. I love the 4 surgicals!
I am however failing to understand why you would non-bo the snapcasters with the grafdiggers? Dont you feel the dissynergy? With no Lavamancers, could the grafdiggers be replaced by Relics of Prog.?

If Grafdigger's Cage sticks against the decks where it's most effective, at worst Snapcaster is a 2/1 beater at instant speed. They're in there to drop the hammer on decks that have a hard time recovering from it, and Delver decks tend to by their very nature have a hard time dealing with graveyard-based strategies.

It's too good to pass up, unless I find something else that works better in its place. It also hoses Elves, don't forget.

[Megadeus]

Is surgical plus snap caster not enough vs GY strategy? I know cage doubles as being good vs elves, but Idk. I feel like cage is redundant if it is just for the GY hate aspect

[KobeBryan]

Is surgical plus snap caster not enough vs GY strategy? I know cage doubles as being good vs elves, but Idk. I feel like cage is redundant if it is just for the GY hate aspect

Thats what i'm thinking

with counters, 4 surgicals and 4 snaps, i think that should suffice.

[Michael Keller]

Thats what i'm thinking

with counters, 4 surgicals and 4 snaps, i think that should suffice.

I wonder if Electrickery is worth a look out of the board? That's a card I've been looking at closely. Very solid against Empty the Warrens and serves dual purpose against Elves and the like.

[Michael Keller]

Here is my updated list, for reference:

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Gut Shot
1 Fire / Ice
1 Noxious Revival

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
2 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Electrickery
2 Divert
2 Flusterstorm
2 Extract
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Meltdown

So, I sat down and looked at some issues the deck was having that needed addressing, in addition to taking some of your suggestions under advisement. Let's start from the top:

Gitaxian Probe

After having play-tested this card top to bottom, in addition to the recent success I've been having at the local venue, Gitaxian Probe has underwhelmed much more than I thought it would. You see, this iteration runs eighteen lands so it poses incredibly difficult decisions on hands necessitating mana and action spells. It just hasn't done anything useful other than make a token here and there, and Snapcaster Mage with it is a waste. The information and cantrip is great, don't get me wrong, but in a battle of attrition early on the ambiguity the card presents doesn't win out over removal or counter-magic, so I preferred to cut it. Information is invaluable, but honestly there are so many other good business spells in such a tight list I would be hard pressed to keep these in the deck at this point.

I'm on the borderline with this card right now. I understand it's great, but it has been more of a liability than a weapon at this point. I just hated mulliganing hands where this card found its way into the starting six or five, because it didn't really offer me anything except for an unknown replacement and a Peek. I also disliked having to wait to cast a Pyromancer first and hold this in order to create a token; the information is clearly more valuable before casting Pyromancer, which again creates ambiguity in the timing of the spell and delayed information.

Probe may very well find its way back into the deck, but time will tell on that one. Until I see it operate successfully in this deck to maximum value, I'll hold off in the mean time.

Noxious Revival

I love this card in this deck. Not only is it an excellent redundant spell that can retrieve anything in your graveyard, it also acts as a defensive measure against Reanimator and other graveyard-based strategies where you can screw with their highly anticipated spells. It does have application against Miracles, as well. A splash here as a one-of is excellent with four Snapcasters to milk the most out of its use, and honestly I've fallen in love with it. I like the card for its utility and ability to interact in more complex situations, something Gitaxian Probe doesn't really offer in a deck like this.

Beautiful for recurring a Wasteland, as well. A free spell that makes a creature with Y.P., too.

Grim Lavamancer

I fit this guy back into the main for his application to mop up against aggro strategies, quick critters or finishers to planeswalkers. Seeing him hit the table turn one can create issues for some decks ill-prepared to fight through his ability.

Chain Lightning

I still like this card here as another way of doing damage to kill planeswalkers or other troublesome creatures. And to damage players, as well. I like the balance it brings to the deck as it functions more in the control aspect as opposed to straight-up "burn you out" line of play, even though that option is readily handy with redundancy in Mage.

Electrickery

Speaks for itself. Keeps your creatures on board while waxing theirs. Highly applicable against Storm and Elves, in addition to D&T and other similar strategies. My previous iteration had issues in dealing with Empty the Warrens, which I wanted to address. This works beautifully in shoring that problem up, in addition to possibly netting you a creature with some card advantage.

True-Name Nemesis

I'd like to fit this guy back into the deck at some point, but right now I'm trying to see what works and what doesn't. He's nice as a definitive finisher, but honestly I'm not too sure. He'll probably make a return at some point, though.

Extract

After perusing some lists and testing throughly against decks that gave this list natural fits, one thing I took notes on was how difficult it was to devote resources early to attacking certain areas of the board. The deck can in some ways play the role of tempo-beast with Daze and Wasteland, but without Stifle all can at times not be lost for the opponent with additional resources. This is notable against 12-Post and other similar rogue-ish strategies that backed me into a corner by worming their way out of denial and winning out of nowhere when I couldn't keep up. I don't like that. A good portion of Legacy decks right now are predicated on running semi-linear strategies with high-impact finishers, such as a singleton Emrakul, Ad Nauseam, Batterskull, Life from the Loam, Dark Depths, Punishing Fire (to a lesser extent), etc. This deck clearly has a hard time battling through those threats, so Extract as an early proactive means to gain information of an opponent's deck and cutting off their primary tunnel to victory is absolutely huge.

Surgical Extraction functions as more of a way to battle dedicated graveyard strategies, where as Extract isn't as situational and gives you that flexibility. Snapcaster Mage maxed out with a pair of these in the board can also do some serious damage. The key thing to note here is the proactive way in which the card operates. These other decks durdle with Tops and cantrips setting up for the big turn, so we turn the tables on them by stripping them of those options early on and nullify cards that improve their hands post-cantrip.

So far the list has played tight with a solid balance of control and aggression, which I love. If anyone has any thoughts, please feel free to comment.

[Michael Keller]

Made the finals yet again with the new U/R Pyromancer list, going 5-1 in the process.

Details to follow.

[KobeBryan]

Made the finals yet again with the new U/R Pyromancer list, going 5-1 in the process.

Details to follow.

How do you feel about a fatty goyf

[Michael Keller]

How do you feel about a fatty goyf

I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

[KobeBryan]

I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

How are you dealing with it

[Michael Keller]

How are you dealing with it

Well, there are a few ways to deal with Goyf.

This is a more control-based shell, and naturally all U/R variants have their inherent difficulties dealing with it. Thankfully, we have a multitude of options. The deck can gum the board up with tokens from Young Pyromancer and burn it out before it gets too large. Even then, it's a vanilla creature. A surprise Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt can finish it off, as well. Countering it is also a realistic possibility.

The thing to note is that this build has a higher amount of permission than typical U/R versions running more burn, but has redundancy built into it in multiple ways. Nemesis with Delver can power through damage in a hurry, as well. If Goyf is popular in your meta, you can use cards like Curfew and Dismember to take care of it. Mine doesn't have many, so I play accordingly. However, I've tested against decks running it and it really hasn't been that big of a deal. There are so many tricks this deck has built into it that dealing five damage to a Tarmogoyf isn't that hard - even if it means trading.

[KobeBryan]

Well, there are a few ways to deal with Goyf.

This is a more control-based shell, and naturally all U/R variants have their inherent difficulties dealing with it. Thankfully, we have a multitude of options. The deck can gum the board up with tokens from Young Pyromancer and burn it out before it gets too large. Even then, it's a vanilla creature. A surprise Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt can finish it off, as well. Countering it is also a realistic possibility.

The thing to note is that this build has a higher amount of permission than typical U/R versions running more burn, but has redundancy built into it in multiple ways. Nemesis with Delver can power through damage in a hurry, as well. If Goyf is popular in your meta, you can use cards like Curfew and Dismember to take care of it. Mine doesn't have many, so I play accordingly. However, I've tested against decks running it and it really hasn't been that big of a deal. There are so many tricks this deck has built into it that dealing five damage to a Tarmogoyf isn't that hard - even if it means trading.

Have you ever thought of bringing in submerges?

[Richard Cheese]

Are those of you playing the Young Pyromancer builds having issues with -x/-x effects? Feels like they're everywhere around here.

[Michael Keller]

Have you ever thought of bringing in submerges?

That's another option, too. I just like Curfew because of its ability to hit untargetables like Emrakul and TNN and its great synergy with Snapcaster Mage and Young Pyromancer. It's really not even "cute" synergy; it's legitimately powerful.

Granted, it doesn't target. Submerge is better against Goyf, but I think Curfew's overall application is better in a deck like this. My list is in partial flux, but in all honesty I've been impressed with its performance.

Also, here were my match-ups for reference:

Round [1]: vs. U/R Delver [W 2-0]
Round [2]: vs. RUG [W 2-0]
Round [3]: vs. Goblins [W 2-0]
Round [4]: vs. Burn [W 2-1]
Top Four: vs. U/R Pyromancer [W 2-1]
Finals: vs. Goblins [L 1-2]

No excuses against the Goblins deck the second go-around in the finals, but I did keep an extremely loose hand game three when it was getting late. Wound up almost pulling it out, though.

People were also asking me if I missed Gitaxian Probe, which I honestly really didn't. I may be entirely wrong on this one, but the way the deck flowed I could see how the draws were smoother and the deck played itself out. Opening hands felt comfortable with more action, and there were really no discrepancies as far as mulligans were concerned.

[KobeBryan]

That's another option, too. I just like Curfew because of its ability to hit untargetables like Emrakul and TNN and its great synergy with Snapcaster Mage and Young Pyromancer. It's really not even "cute" synergy; it's legitimately powerful.

Granted, it doesn't target. Submerge is better against Goyf, but I think Curfew's overall application is better in a deck like this. My list is in partial flux, but in all honesty I've been impressed with its performance.

Also, here were my match-ups for reference:

Round [1]: vs. U/R Delver [W 2-0]
Round [2]: vs. RUG [W 2-0]
Round [3]: vs. Goblins [W 2-0]
Round [4]: vs. Burn [W 2-1]
Top Four: vs. U/R Pyromancer [W 2-1]
Finals: vs. Goblins [L 1-2]

No excuses against the Goblins deck the second go-around in the finals, but I did keep an extremely loose hand game three when it was getting late. Wound up almost pulling it out, though.

People were also asking me if I missed Gitaxian Probe, which I honestly really didn't. I may be entirely wrong on this one, but the way the deck flowed I could see how the draws were smoother and the deck played itself out. Opening hands felt comfortable with more action, and there were really no discrepancies as far as mulligans were concerned.

would you take out an island for another waste?

[Michael Keller]

would you take out an island for another waste?

I could I suppose. I haven't noticed or cared for the fourth.

[Angelteg]

I used to play the old Boaz list and had a ton of fun and good success. My meta shifted and I wanted wasteland, but in looking to go back to Keller's list so I can use my foil noxious revivals. Can someone talk a lite bit about how the counterbalance matchup goes?

[kaminamina]

I've been finding that pyromancer is more and more a meta call. My meta is lots and lots of TNN, so all the black decks (as in decks with black in them, like BUG and Jund) are running toxic deluge in the side. Then you've got zealous persecution in the deathblade lists, which is good against delver even without pyromancer.

Now, oddly enough, the printing of Council's Judgement is probably the best thing to happen to young pyromancer; instead of running -X/-X effects, they're just running that (since it doesn't target), which isn't actually all that awesome against pyromancer.

All that said, in my eyes there are only two versions of UR delver that should ever really see play: Pyromancer lists, and Price of Progress lists.

My personal favorite deck in the entire format is UR delver with Price. Price of Progress means you're going for burn, and should also be running goblin guide since that card is absolutely nuts. Pyro is okay here, but you don't have as many slots for it. The core of this deck is this, IMO:

4 Delver
3-4 Snapcaster
4 Guide
1-2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force
4 Bolts
4 Chain lightning (I cannot think of a reason to run less than 4)
2-3 Price
2-6 Counterspells
4 Brainstorm, best card in the deck
3-4 Ponder (I guess preordain could work. I've never seen it before Keller's list in this thread, but I'm sure it works just as well.)
8-10 Fetchlands
8-10 Lands
(Total lands should be 18)

Do not run wasteland in this list. Not only do you want to hit them for a bunch with price of progress, but you also want to hit 4 mana reliably since flashing back price of progress is the ultimate game ender. Without wasteland, stifle becomes kind of bad, so don't run it either. I also advise against daze since it's not that strong when you're not running mana denial. Plus, this deck is very mana intensive with snapcaster (a 3-4 mana card) and grim lavamancer, so bouncing your lands is not the strongest play. To compensate, run spell pierce. Spell snare is also super strong in this list since you have no consistent outs against a resolved goyf. I'm pretty sure this is stuff everyone already knows, but I'm bored at work so screw it. :P

Andrew schneider's UR burn list won a SCG open or something similar recently, it looks like this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Lava Spike

I've been running with this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge

Probe is good. Like, really good. If anything, I'm just testing without it; I've actually been really missing it lately. I've been considering a 2/2/2 split of pierce/snare/probe. I think snare is too good to pass up as well since it hits like half the cards that rip us a new one (goyf, SFM, hardcasted Jitte to name a few). Maybe I could cut a GL from the main for a probe, then squeeze one into the side. Maybe cut a smash, 3 is probably too much. But for now, that's what I'm running.

Forked bolt isn't that important in the burn list cause you run 8 bolts and at least one grim Lavamancer. If you see a lot of DnT and maverick in your meta, run one, but even against delver it's not that necessary since you run such an ungodly amount of relevant removal.

Four Volcanics is probably best but the price jumped and I only have 3 from RUG so fuck that.

[Michael Keller]

I'm finding that Spell Snare is actually looking better and better. It's not just its application against any two-drop - it's just that some of the best cards in the format right now are at a converted cost of two. They also happen to be inherently good against us, so I may consider that split.

[KobeBryan]

I'm finding that Spell Snare is actually looking better and better. It's not just its application against any two-drop - it's just that some of the best cards in the format right now are at a converted cost of two. They also happen to be inherently good against us, so I may consider that split.

i suppose you will take out fire/ice and a gutshot

[Neffy]

With the increase in islands in the UR deck, does Thwart become an option? Maybe as a singleton? It also works well with Price of Progress on the stack.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/108.jpg
Or maybe foil? discarding something for snappy to flash back?
Might be too cute though..

[KobeBryan]

Hey Hollywood.

Been playing with your deck design, its a very fun deck especially dominating tempo strategies

I have a question, any ideal on how to beat the miracles matchup?

[Michael Keller]

Hey Hollywood.

Been playing with your deck design, its a very fun deck especially dominating tempo strategies

I have a question, any ideal on how to beat the miracles matchup?

I've been thinking about that, and honestly I'm thinking of shifting to Pithing Needles in the board if I'm going to a large event with the deck or play in a meta with Miracles everywhere. I think the ability to shut down Top is just huge, and I think you play enough counters to war it out against an opponent's early Counterbalance.

Not exactly the best match-up in the world, but there are options you can explore to beat it out of the board. Another TNN may be ideal; that really only leaves Terminus as their only out.

[kaminamina]

With the increase in islands in the UR deck, does Thwart become an option? Maybe as a singleton? It also works well with Price of Progress on the stack.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/108.jpg
Or maybe foil? discarding something for snappy to flash back?
Might be too cute though..

Both thwart and foil seem really bad. For 0 mana counters I think we should just stick with force. Between Force and pierce I don't find myself lacking in counter magic.

Remember, we're not a control deck.

[JDK]

I've been thinking about that, and honestly I'm thinking of shifting to Pithing Needles in the board if I'm going to a large event with the deck or play in a meta with Miracles everywhere. I think the ability to shut down Top is just huge, and I think you play enough counters to war it out against an opponent's early Counterbalance.

Not exactly the best match-up in the world, but there are options you can explore to beat it out of the board. Another TNN may be ideal; that really only leaves Terminus as their only out.

Welcome to Sulfuric Vortex and a better manabase.

[Michael Keller]

Welcome to Sulfuric Vortex and a better manabase.

Sulfuric Vortex is an option.

This is a two-color deck with an almost even balance of blue and red spells (at least my version is); as long as its supported properly, a "better" mana-base should be largely irrelevant and more dependent on which version you choose to run.

[kaminamina]

An interesting UR list with standstill made top 8 at a relatively big tournament recently.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation created with mtgtop8.com
// NAME : UR Delver
// CREATOR : Ivan Siska
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Standstill
2 Dismember
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Submerge

[Meekrab]

How many things are we happy paying 4 life to Dismember? Seems like an odd choice.

[Michael Keller]

How many things are we happy paying 4 life to Dismember? Seems like an odd choice.

Two is a reasonable number of Dismembers to take out Tarmogoyfs that stick. It also depends on the build you're running.

[Koby]

Two is a reasonable number of Dismembers to take out Tarmogoyfs that stick. It also depends on the build you're running.

Goyf problems seem to me are best handled by two options:
1. Vapor Snag
2. Submerge

Depending on how much reliance the list has on Snapcaster Mage (#1 primarily).

[Michael Keller]

Goyf problems seem to me are best handled by two options:
1. Vapor Snag
2. Submerge

Depending on how much reliance the list has on Snapcaster Mage (#1 primarily).

I think Curfew is likely better than Vapor Snag in this deck. It also has application against Emrakul, Progenitus and other hexproof creatures, and also bounces opposing flipped Delvers. It triggers off of Pyromancer, so you can stack the trigger and just bounce the token upon resolution.

And the dual synergy with Snapcaster Mage is pretty outstanding.

[.Ix]

An interesting UR list with standstill made top 8 at a relatively big tournament recently.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation created with mtgtop8.com
// NAME : UR Delver
// CREATOR : Ivan Siska
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Standstill
2 Dismember
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Submerge

I sleeved this up and played it as soon as I saw it on tcdecks. It brings back so many feels. It plays just like the old UR Fish decks from back when Hulk Smash was a Vintage deck. Tested it against Miracles and Reanimator and it was very solid. I beat Reanimator 2-1 by just having answers to everything, and beat Miracles 2-1 by grinding him out and stifling his terminus whenever I could. I lost game 2 vs Miracles when he was on 2 life, and I couldn't find anything to deal damage with. I did remove 1 Grim Lavamancer to add another land. 20 seems too low, considering the deck runs 8 colorless lands and is very interested in sacrificing 4 of them. I also changed the 2 Nemesis to 2 Clique because I was preparing for a combo meta. I haven't played against any fair decks, so I can't really tell how good the Dismember is. I wished at least one of them were a Fire/Ice in game 2 of the Miracles match, though, because I drew both when I was digging for damage. Must test more!

[KobeBryan]

I think Curfew is likely better than Vapor Snag in this deck. It also has application against Emrakul, Progenitus and other hexproof creatures, and also bounces opposing flipped Delvers. It triggers off of Pyromancer, so you can stack the trigger and just bounce the token upon resolution.

And the dual synergy with Snapcaster Mage is pretty outstanding.

Bouncing your own snapcaster has been amazing for me.

Creatures other than goyf can easily be handled with the amount of bolts this deck packs.

[Michael Keller]

Representing the new UR Pyromancer list at SCG: Syracuse.

[Koby]

Representing the new UR Pyromancer list at SCG: Syracuse.

Good luck Mike. I would wish you many feature matches and opportunities to crush the competition, but I know you would rather go about it in the shadows.

While I still think the Burn approach to this archetype is more powerful in its ability to win close games (ignore interaction, deal damage), I think the Stifle build has a lot of merit in an established Fetchland metagame.

[Michael Keller]

Good luck Mike. I would wish you many feature matches and opportunities to crush the competition, but I know you would rather go about it in the shadows.

While I still think the Burn approach to this archetype is more powerful in its ability to win close games (ignore interaction, deal damage), I think the Stifle build has a lot of merit in an established Fetchland metagame.

That's exactly what I'll be doing.

[beez]

That's exactly what I'll be doing.

How did it go down in Syracuse?

[sawatarix]

An interesting UR list with standstill made top 8 at a relatively big tournament recently.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation created with mtgtop8.com
// NAME : UR Delver
// CREATOR : Ivan Siska
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Standstill
2 Dismember
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Submerge

I played against Ivan Siska piloting this deck at Prague Eternal in the Semifinals with Storm and
there is also the Video Coverage on Youtube i think.
He defeated 2 of my friends in the swiss rounds and after the tournament i talked to him about his sweet list.
He mentioned, that he increased the 1 drops in his deck (4 Delver and 3 Grim Lavamancer) for a perfect Standstill on turn 2.Especially Grim Lavamancer is a great tool to get rid of random opposing manlands such as creeping tar pit or mishras factories.
standstill was a metacall, with all the slow miracle decks around, why not play 4 'ancestral recalls'.

[apple713]

Not sure if its been mentioned already but repeal is super sexy right now. Gets germ token, flipped delvers, marit lage all for 1 blue and cantrips... What?!? Also has other applications as a tempo card and pseudo removal for enchantments.

The deck needs more amazing 1 drops imo. Burn route defiantly favorable because if you stick a early threat hold them off for a couple turns with control, then use fire blast/price to wrap things up.

[JDK]

Another Top8 (3-0 + double ID) after five months of tournament absence:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Spell Snare
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

//Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Price of Progress
2 Vapor Snag

Matchups were Merfolk 2-0, TinFins 2-0 and Miracles 2-0, as well as BW Tokens/Blade/Midrange 0-2 in the quarterfinals.

[Mondale]

Another Top8 (3-0 + double ID) after five months of tournament absence:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Spell Snare
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

//Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Price of Progress
2 Vapor Snag

Matchups were Merfolk 2-0, TinFins 2-0 and Miracles 2-0, as well as BW Tokens/Blade/Midrange 0-2 in the quarterfinals.

Mind me asking what your usual sideboard plan is for miracles and U/W/R delver? I'm debating between the landstill build and the burn build at the moment.

[JDK]

Against Miracles Sulfuric Vortex has priority number one. If your meta demands it, you can up the count in the SB without much hesitation.

Usually I board out FoW & PoP for Vortex, TNN and Pyroblast.

UWR depends on the build.

[Angelteg]

Another Top8 (3-0 + double ID) after five months of tournament absence:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Spell Snare
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

//Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Price of Progress
2 Vapor Snag

Matchups were Merfolk 2-0, TinFins 2-0 and Miracles 2-0, as well as BW Tokens/Blade/Midrange 0-2 in the quarterfinals.

Good thing nobody checked your deck and found you were only playing 56 cards.m set of chain lightning missing from the list I would imagine?

[KobeBryan]

Against Miracles Sulfuric Vortex has priority number one. If your meta demands it, you can up the count in the SB without much hesitation.

Usually I board out FoW & PoP for Vortex, TNN and Pyroblast.

UWR depends on the build.

nah you board out daze against miracles. That card is more dead than not. You keep FOW because you need it to stop their win con

[JDK]

Good thing nobody checked your deck and found you were only playing 56 cards.m set of chain lightning missing from the list I would imagine?
Relax, madman. Just a copy-paste mistake.
Of course +4 chain lightning.


nah you board out daze against miracles. That card is more dead than not. You keep FOW because you need it to stop their win con
You can board however you want, but if I am on the play, I leave Daze in the maindeck. Can't even count the times I got a Sword, Top, CB or whatnot. You want to be aggressive as fuck and Daze allows you to be that way without losing on CA. You are also not as reliant on FoW for their wincons, since you have the advantage of playing first and Daze forces them to play around it.

On the draw I am more lik
ely to swap out some amount of them.

[Heresy]

Say bye to GG?

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/62/317/200/283/635461202555465671.png

[festeringGAB]

I think..say welcome to swiftspear :laugh:

[JDK]

I don't think so.

Yes, this guy _can_ be better than GG. The problem, however, is that you need to play additional spells pre-combat-damage-step. In a 4 Probe-Build this might be "okay", but you really don't want to tap out or waste your spells just to get the damage in GG would have provided anyway.

[JPoJohnson]

I was trying to think of the perks of this guy over GG.

He, at first, appeared to be decent in a 4 Stifle 4 Wasteland build that plays more to the style of RUG, but then it's slow damage that isn't useful. UR Delver that is essentially counter burn wants faster damage and he doesn't always deliver, especially in top deck mode. He also doesn't trade with many creatures as cleanly as GG does so... I'm not entirely sure.

[diego1985]

What you think about a version with 4 standstill?

Inviato dal mio KFTHWI utilizzando Tapatalk

[thefreakaccident]

I played this deck with standstills... Sometimes with delver/GG turn one into turn 2 standstill, you just win. But sometimes it sits there in hand with an even or unfavorable board and you die a little on the inside. Too inconsistent.

[Jon]

I played this deck with standstills... Sometimes with delver/GG turn one into turn 2 standstill, you just win. But sometimes it sits there in hand with an even or unfavorable board and you die a little on the inside. Too inconsistent.

I have also played both versions, I think the U/R Burn list is just that, a burn deck with play. I was never impressed with the deck when it didn't have the first 2 turns taken by playing Goblin Guides. For that reason, I much prefer the Delverstill version of the list. The 11th place at the last SCG open was piloted by my cousin and he felt it was very good in the current meta. We have some work to do with the SB, I think on the advice of Nedleeds, we will add a Crucible to the board as well as revisit our elves match. The deck gives you much more play, and is overall much more powerful in the wide spectrum of decks.

[JPoJohnson]

Creatures (9)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 True-Name Nemesis

Lands (19)
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Spells (32)
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Forked Bolt

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Pyroclasm

I like this list with Standstills a lot.

[Sentient6]

The fact that Swiftspear plays a lot better with Daze than Goblin Guide would make it possible to emphasize a Mana Denial Strategy and build a deck similar to RUG. While this might be just building a worse version of a successful deck - besides the advantages of being two colors - not using the graveyard could be good. This fact as well as the need for a lot of cheap cantrips to use with Young Pyromancer and Swiftspear could make the deck the perfect spot to abuse Treasure Cruise. Was thinking about some list like the following one:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Young Pyromancer

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Ponder
3x Treasure Cruise

4x Wasteland
4x Scalding tarn
4x Volcanic Island
2x Flooded Strand
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Island
1x Mountain

There are some additional cards to consider. Faithless Looting could fit right in, filling the graveyard and being two spells in one. Dack Fayden could be a nice 1-2 of, the 12 creatures being all human one could give cavern a shot, maybe even fitting Snapcaster in, despite it having a poor synergy with delve. What do you think?

[cab0747]

Hey Everyone!

I decided to put a UR delver list together last night. I had always thought that all UR Delver lists played Goblin Guide. As I was looking through, it seems that lists either play Young Pyromancer or Guide and that the guide lists are more focused on Burn.

Is this always the case? I am sure there are pros an cons to each.

[bobxxxbob]

Playing both the swiftspear and pyromancer I think you should focus on playing proactive spells on your turn. Chain lightning seems a must and lava dart is something I think should be tested for the enormous synergy with the cards mentioned.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[FoolofaTook]

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Young Pyromancer

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Ponder
3x Treasure Cruise

4x Wasteland
4x Scalding tarn
4x Volcanic Island
2x Flooded Strand
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Island
1x Mountain


Think of the number of turns you're going to spend durdling around with that list and the likely payoffs for all the durdling. Fill your GY for two effective plays and a lot of card selection in the process and then draw 3. Does that sound like a winning strategy?

The RUG lists have Goyf as a finisher once they've done their two turn durdle and disrupt routine. They have a 3/3 with shroud. This list has a bunch of guys that can be removed and no big hitter to finish with.

UR needs more burn than this. It needs Price of Progress to finish with. It has to have a way to end the game on turn 4 or 5 at the outside. Not that it has to do that every time but it needs to be able to do it.

[mextremartini]

The fact that Swiftspear plays a lot better with Daze than Goblin Guide would make it possible to emphasize a Mana Denial Strategy and build a deck similar to RUG. While this might be just building a worse version of a successful deck - besides the advantages of being two colors - not using the graveyard could be good. This fact as well as the need for a lot of cheap cantrips to use with Young Pyromancer and Swiftspear could make the deck the perfect spot to abuse Treasure Cruise. Was thinking about some list like the following one:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Young Pyromancer

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Ponder
3x Treasure Cruise

4x Wasteland
4x Scalding tarn
4x Volcanic Island
2x Flooded Strand
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Island
1x Mountain

There are some additional cards to consider. Faithless Looting could fit right in, filling the graveyard and being two spells in one. Dack Fayden could be a nice 1-2 of, the 12 creatures being all human one could give cavern a shot, maybe even fitting Snapcaster in, despite it having a poor synergy with delve. What do you think?

I think the idea of the deck seams right, however, I am not positive that stifle would fit in a pyromancer-cantrip shell. Here we are looking to cantrip and deploy treats and make dudes. We cannot only hold mana for stifle, otherwise our creatures wont grow.
With that said, I am more inclined to -4stifle for 2 chain/2pierce
Also, i think 2 cruise should be enough.

[Sentient6]

I think you guys are right with stifle, it seems awkward. More gas in the form of Chain Lightning really seems like the way to go. Lava Dart I am not so sure about... Might be too cute. But then again you go through a lot of cards and therefore enough lands to sac. There's also synergy with looting, if you wanna go down that route.

[Jon]

Is Wasteland / Stifle / Pyro better then Price of Progress / Goblin Guide / Snapcaster ? Why try to play the mana denial game with Pyro and jam black for Cabal Therapy and DRS?

[JPoJohnson]

I think you guys are right with stifle, it seems awkward. More gas in the form of Chain Lightning really seems like the way to go. Lava Dart I am not so sure about... Might be too cute. But then again you go through a lot of cards and therefore enough lands to sac. There's also synergy with looting, if you wanna go down that route.

I really like the UR lists that build like they are RUG except no Green. Stifle can be fantastic with the right build around it.

[Angelteg]

Anyone have any thoughts about adding Monastery Swiftspear into a traditional burn list to put the deck at 9 one drops? Maybe cut a main deck ponder? I always feel like my best starts involve a one drop hitting the table.

[L-Luck]

Anyone have any thoughts about adding Monastery Swiftspear into a traditional burn list to put the deck at 9 one drops? Maybe cut a main deck ponder? I always feel like my best starts involve a one drop hitting the table.

4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide

2 Treasure Cruise
2 Rift Bolt
3 Daze
2 Fireblast
1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
1 Price of Progress

4 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Flooded Strand

SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Plateau

I goldfished this list a lot, and it actually looks promising. There is a lot of synergy (and some awakwardness with the basics and Daze/Fireblast) and the speed is ridiculous, especially decks without one mana removal (aka BUG) should have big problems with this.

[Sentient6]

Not sure if Daze belongs in the same list as Goblin Guide. Why not go all the way and cut it for even more burn?

[kaminamina]

In my experience, UR has two routes it can take. You can go the burn/aggro route or the tempo route.

In a tempo shell you want wasteland, pyromancer, daze, and probably stifle. You can also run snapcaster.

In a burn shell you want goblin guide, price of progress, snapcaster, and you specifically DON'T want stifle and wasteland because your main wincon is price of progress. This list also doesn't want daze because daze's main strength is its synergy with mana denial. Between 4 force, 2 spell pierce, and sometimes 2 spell snare I never really miss daze in these kind of lists. Daze is also bad here because you want to have lots of mana open for snapcaster mage.

The tempo shell is the "better" deck because it has good matchups against most of the meta. The issue here is that the only advantage that UR tempo has over RUG or BUG or 4 color delver is that it's cheaper to build. However, if your meta has a lot of BUG (especially shardless BUG), the burn list will absolutely stomp at local tourneys. I think in that regard, UR delver with price of progress is the only list worth running since there's no deck that does quite the same thing, so it actually fits a niche in the meta. Although you're trying to build RUG and you can't afford it yet, UR tempo is worth building since it plays the same.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Think of the number of turns you're going to spend durdling around with that list and the likely payoffs for all the durdling. Fill your GY for two effective plays and a lot of card selection in the process and then draw 3. Does that sound like a winning strategy?

The RUG lists have Goyf as a finisher once they've done their two turn durdle and disrupt routine. They have a 3/3 with shroud. This list has a bunch of guys that can be removed and no big hitter to finish with.

UR needs more burn than this. It needs Price of Progress to finish with. It has to have a way to end the game on turn 4 or 5 at the outside. Not that it has to do that every time but it needs to be able to do it.

Uh no it does not, I don't think you have seen what Young Pyromancer can do. In the right deck it is a better and faster finisher than Goyf anyway.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

I think the idea of the deck seams right, however, I am not positive that stifle would fit in a pyromancer-cantrip shell. Here we are looking to cantrip and deploy treats and make dudes. We cannot only hold mana for stifle, otherwise our creatures wont grow.
With that said, I am more inclined to -4stifle for 2 chain/2pierce
Also, i think 2 cruise should be enough.

Stifle is great with Young Pyromancer.

I don't know which deck you play that you think all mana is used on cantrips all the time. Once you have a YP in play you can keep up mana.

Grixis Tempo lists usually played Delver, Dark Confidant, Young Pyromancer, Daze, Stifle, FoW, Probe, Ponder, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt..

Not sure if I really love Monestary Swiftspear. The card goads you into playing spells on your turn when you otherwise would not do it.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

In my experience, UR has two routes it can take. You can go the burn/aggro route or the tempo route.

In a tempo shell you want wasteland, pyromancer, daze, and probably stifle. You can also run snapcaster.

In a burn shell you want goblin guide, price of progress, snapcaster, and you specifically DON'T want stifle and wasteland because your main wincon is price of progress. This list also doesn't want daze because daze's main strength is its synergy with mana denial. Between 4 force, 2 spell pierce, and sometimes 2 spell snare I never really miss daze in these kind of lists. Daze is also bad here because you want to have lots of mana open for snapcaster mage.

The tempo shell is the "better" deck because it has good matchups against most of the meta. The issue here is that the only advantage that UR tempo has over RUG or BUG or 4 color delver is that it's cheaper to build. However, if your meta has a lot of BUG (especially shardless BUG), the burn list will absolutely stomp at local tourneys. I think in that regard, UR delver with price of progress is the only list worth running since there's no deck that does quite the same thing, so it actually fits a niche in the meta. Although you're trying to build RUG and you can't afford it yet, UR tempo is worth building since it plays the same.

You are right, the UR-Tempo shell is definitely the better deck.

whether it is UR, RUG or Grixis or RWU.

[MGB]

So this deck will play 3-4-of Treasure Cruise or what?

[Koby]

So this deck will play 3-4-of Treasure Cruise or what?

Just play Gitaxian Probe. Zero mana draw 1 vs 2-3 mana draw 3.
This deck gains card advantage with Snapcaster Mage.

[alphastryk]

BTW - if you aren't testing Monastery Swiftspear in here, you should be. It's often a better Goblin Guide. This isn't a deck I play often but that card has seemed very very good so far.

[Richard Cheese]

BTW - if you aren't testing Monastery Swiftspear in here, you should be. It's often a better Goblin Guide. This isn't a deck I play often but that card has seemed very very good so far.

Seems like it wouldn't be as good here as in straight burn because of the presence of counters and either Stifle or Price. Still it's an interesting card. Between this and Treasure Cruise, this deck has some really interesting options going forward. I think I'm going to play with a more burn-focused list and cut Lavamancers and 1-2 Snapcasters for 3-4 Cruise. Debating Young Peezy vs. Guide vs. Eidolon vs. Nivmagus.

Finally a good home for Izzet Charm?! Probably not, but a man can dream.

[Finslayer]

I've been testing Monastery Swiftspear in a quite heavy burn shell.
Tell me what you think of this list:

3 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
1 Island
10 Fetch

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Treasure Cruise

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear

[ThiefSlayer]

I've been testing Monastery Swiftspear in a quite heavy burn shell.
Tell me what you think of this list:

3 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
1 Island
10 Fetch

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Treasure Cruise

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear

I run a burn-heavy deck as well, but I do it with daze and FoW in it's maindeck, as also thunderous wrath (which may seem a little flat, but works above 80% of the time, having brainstorm on the deck). Until now it's been the best list I've ran until now

Because of the fact that you dont run FoW in the MD (which I personally think that it's a mistake), the decision on now running snapcaster is probably correct. Maybe the fireblast is not a good choise, as you run only 3 volcanic islands and 1 mountain... I'd run not more than 1, since it has to be the finisher. Just an observation, sometimes people run discards and you have to discard it. Because of this I've never ran fireblast in my UR Delver Burn list.

By the way, tell us what YOU have thought about your build. I think it looks promising (I'd only put some FoW in the MD), since as you run 4 probes and no snapcaster you may operate well with only 16 mana.

Also, how do your SB looks like? I guess because it's a 16 land deck it has to be pretty light

By the way, here goes the list I've been running and got top8 in the last 3 tournaments with about 40 people (just a point about it's efficiency):

CREATURES
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster

COUNTER
4 Force of Will
3 Daze


CANTRIP
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe

BURN
3 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Thunderous Wrath

LANDS
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta

SIDEBOARD
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Searing Blaze
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extraction

[Finslayer]

I run a burn-heavy deck as well, but I do it with daze and FoW in it's maindeck, as also thunderous wrath (which may seem a little flat, but works above 80% of the time, having brainstorm on the deck). Until now it's been the best list I've ran until now

Because of the fact that you dont run FoW in the MD (which I personally think that it's a mistake), the decision on now running snapcaster is probably correct. Maybe the fireblast is not a good choise, as you run only 3 volcanic islands and 1 mountain... I'd run not more than 1, since it has to be the finisher. Just an observation, sometimes people run discards and you have to discard it. Because of this I've never ran fireblast in my UR Delver Burn list.

By the way, tell us what YOU have thought about your build. I think it looks promising (I'd only put some FoW in the MD), since as you run 4 probes and no snapcaster you may operate well with only 16 mana.

Also, how do your SB looks like? I guess because it's a 16 land deck it has to be pretty light

By the way, here goes the list I've been running and got top8 in the last 3 tournaments with about 40 people (just a point about it's efficiency):

CREATURES
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster

COUNTER
4 Force of Will
3 Daze


CANTRIP
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe

BURN
3 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Thunderous Wrath

LANDS
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta

SIDEBOARD
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Searing Blaze
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extraction

I used to play Pyro version with True-Name Nemesis but when I saw Monastery Swiftblade I wanted to brew with it. First I goldfished with this deck including FoW and Daze but wanted to fully maximize the potential of Monastery Swiftspear so I wanted to be able to play my cards during Main 1. Monastery has been usually quite impressive while goldfishing, with blue I'm usually able to chain spells so over 3 turn I can usually play at least 2 spells a turn. I think I should add go to 4 Volcanic Island. I could see going back to MD Fows but as for now I'm playing this version like "burn with blue" and keep on brewing without FoW md. My sideboard atm:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
4 FoW
1 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blaze

Sorry for my bad english.

[LeoCop 90]

I think that if you're not gonna play any counterspell in your deck then you are better off just playing straight burn. Even lists with swiftspear should at least run force of will + daze, then against combo decks side out swiftspear and add more counterspells.

[FANAttIC]

Welcome our new overlords: Swiftspear and Cruise.
Good job Bob!

[kryllex]

Incredible performance by Bob!

What the ****, Treasure Cruise is nuts! After i saw the finals, i instantly ordered the 2 missing Cruises for me and the set of Swiftspears. I mean - racing 2 Griselbrand attacks, what the actual...? When I saw Swiftspear for the first time, I though "Hey, that card could be fun", but ... what i saw on camera last night, was just insane. First SCG with KTK being legal in legacy, and I saw a Recall here, Recall there, oh, what about a ridicilously huge Goblin Guide? :eek: Whoever still thinks Cruise has no impact in Legacy - sooooooooo, yeah. :confused:

[Tea]

Where are the Wastelands?

[Hopo]

Where are the Wastelands?

You think he could have done better than winning the Open if he had Wastelands or what's your point?

[Quizzlemanizzle]

You think he could have done better than winning the Open if he had Wastelands or what's your point?


If he ran Wastelands he would have to take out at least 3 spells for it and also run Stifle.

Obviously you CAN play Wastelands and Stifle at the cost of probably some number of Ponder, Swiftspear, Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt, Daze.

[cab0747]

Grea job by Bob. 4 Cruises seem like a bit much... but he never dew multiples on camera.

I will be picking up a set tonight. I look forward to the new set on MTGO.

[Griselpuff]

Haha hi guys. I'll write something up for CFB, but here are some quick replies from my phone. I actually drew 3 cruises vs shardless on camera in round 8. Cruise is just too good. I'm okay with shuffling away extras and pitching them to fow, but I always want one. After the first, the second becomes easier to cast. Stifle/waste are fine but less good when expected and they don't synergize with swiftspear.

[Lemnear]

Haha hi guys. I'll write something up for CFB, but here are some quick replies from my phone. I actually drew 3 cruises vs shardless on camera in round 8. Cruise is just too good. I'm okay with shuffling away extras and pitching them to fow, but I always want one. After the first, the second becomes easier to cast. Stifle/waste are fine but less good when expected and they don't synergize with swiftspear.

That's obvious, but the question is if Stifle+Wasteland wouldn't feed Treasure Cruise better and if the resulting carddraw and manadenial wouldn't make running Swiftspear alongside Delver and Pyromancer kinda redundant in terms of threat-density?

[wcm8]

Haha hi guys. I'll write something up for CFB, but here are some quick replies from my phone. I actually drew 3 cruises vs shardless on camera in round 8. Cruise is just too good. I'm okay with shuffling away extras and pitching them to fow, but I always want one. After the first, the second becomes easier to cast. Stifle/waste are fine but less good when expected and they don't synergize with swiftspear.

Congrats. Great playing. Do you think Swiftspear is just strictly better than Goblin Guide?

[Heresy]

Haha hi guys. I'll write something up for CFB, but here are some quick replies from my phone. I actually drew 3 cruises vs shardless on camera in round 8. Cruise is just too good. I'm okay with shuffling away extras and pitching them to fow, but I always want one. After the first, the second becomes easier to cast. Stifle/waste are fine but less good when expected and they don't synergize with swiftspear.

Congrats! I was just wondering on the 1 Forked Bolt and 2 Chain Lightning split, were you expecting a lot of burn.dec? Isn't the opposite configuration even more aggressive for races? Plus, casting Forked Bolt twice is not that stellar if you get to already 2-for-1 D&T, etc. Thanks.

[MGB]

Just play Gitaxian Probe. Zero mana draw 1 vs 2-3 mana draw 3.
This deck gains card advantage with Snapcaster Mage.

So I guess Delver decks just don't need Draw-3s! Case closed! Snapcaster is more than enough!

[Collman]

Haha hi guys. I'll write something up for CFB, but here are some quick replies from my phone. I actually drew 3 cruises vs shardless on camera in round 8. Cruise is just too good. I'm okay with shuffling away extras and pitching them to fow, but I always want one. After the first, the second becomes easier to cast. Stifle/waste are fine but less good when expected and they don't synergize with swiftspear.

Congrats on the finish, really looking forward to the article!


That's obvious, but the question is if Stifle+Wasteland wouldn't feed Treasure Cruise better and if the resulting carddraw and manadenial wouldn't make running Swiftspear alongside Delver and Pyromancer kinda redundant in terms of threat-density?

I think the problem with Wasteland and Stifle is that you can't always put them in the graveyard when you want. Maybe they don't crack that fetch and maybe you're playing against a deck with basics, in those situations fetches + cantrips / burn are better at enabling Pyromancer / Swiftspear and Cruise. This list is more aggro oriented than the the standard non PoP list I think.


Congrats. Great playing. Do you think Swiftspear is just strictly better than Goblin Guide?

I might be wrong, but I think you probably want PoP if you're playing GG.

[Lemnear]

I think the problem with Wasteland and Stifle is that you can't always put them in the graveyard when you want. Maybe they don't crack that fetch and maybe you're playing against a deck with basics, in those situations fetches + cantrips / burn are better at enabling Pyromancer / Swiftspear and Cruise. This list is more aggro oriented than the the standard non PoP list I think.

The Aggro approach is fine, but I was pondering if it really fits with TCs nature of needing 3-5 turns to come online. Isn't the Swiftspear just bad by then?

[Holly]

The Aggro approach is fine, but I was pondering if it really fits with TCs nature of needing 3-5 turns to come online. Isn't the Swiftspear just bad by then?

After resolving TC you do get some spells to get Swiftspear big enough to matter.

[ThiefSlayer]

I guess TC is more about getting advanced on the board, since there will be usually 2 more non-land cards, which means more tokens and less threats on the enemy side (bolts to their faces). It may be more about getting ahead on the late game. I was already thinking of try pyromancer, but with this result I guess I'll try the whole TC/Pyromancer/Swiftspear.

Congrats for the win Bob, and also for the guts of trying this new approach! Unfortunately I only got to see the finals but it was awesome! This result will for sure put UR Delver back on the spotlights, as the newcomers swiftspear and TC.

[ThiefSlayer]

Haha hi guys. I'll write something up for CFB, but here are some quick replies from my phone. I actually drew 3 cruises vs shardless on camera in round 8. Cruise is just too good. I'm okay with shuffling away extras and pitching them to fow, but I always want one. After the first, the second becomes easier to cast. Stifle/waste are fine but less good when expected and they don't synergize with swiftspear.

I get the strong appeal that TC and I really don't doubt about it's effectiveness. But my point is, doesn't multiple TC makes you want to mulligan more than usual? I mean, if your initial hand isn't very consistent and has a copy of TC in it, isn't that hard for your early game? It can be pitch to FoW, but it seems a little flat to me. I will definitely run at least 2 copies of it in my deck, but I guess 4 of them would make your early game harder on you, if it's not too consistent.

By the way, I was just about to post this reply when I saw Dig Through Time. It seems really strong card, getting to pick 2 among 7 cards seems better than just drawing 3 cards. The extra "non-delvable" mana seems not attractive, but I guess a lot of times you just had to play TC for 2 or 3 cmc anyway. What do you guys think about this card? This could also work like a shuffle effect for brainstorm, since you still look at other 5 cards and chose 2 among them and put the rest on the bottom of your library.

PS.: Sorry for my bad english, it's been some time since I haven't practiced it.

[kaminamina]

I cannot believe it. Seriously I am in shock that TC is not just playable, but apparently really good. It looked so incredibly shitty to me and I went to great lengths to tell everyone it was garbage!

Well, I fully admit I was wrong. I'm still not convinced it's 4-of worthy, but when reviewing the games that Bob Huang played, it's become apparent that its early game function is FoW fodder, so maybe 4 is the right call! I mean I can't argue with his results can I?

That said, I STILL don't think monestary swiftspear is anything to write home about. In a lot of games he topdecked it and it only swung in for 1 damage in situations where goblin guide would have been better.

It certainly seems to me like this archetype is splitting into snapcaster/price decks and pyro/swiftspear decks. Personally I'm not gonna stop playing with snapcaster because that card is just my absolute favorite creature ever to play with, and I'm not convinced swiftspear fits in my current deck. I also am not sure treasure cruise fits in my current deck since I rely so heavily on flashback and grim lavamancer.

What I'm saying is basically: Treasure cruise and swiftspear are apparently very good, but you have to SERIOUSLY change your deck to make them work. Don't just jam them into your deck and call it a day, you have to really think about what you're doing with them.

It's important to note that daze and goblin guide absolutely do NOT belong in the same deck. Daze loses its value when you have the distinct possibility of giving your opponent lands.

Another important note is that swiftspear rewards casting spells on your turn. This isn't a bad thing it's just important to remember what you're playing with. It means you're not going for the control game, you're going for the aggro route, except without price of progress. Seems weird to me come to think of it.

Look the point I'm making is that despite both decks including only two colors and delver, this new list is by and large its own creation. It's a new thing. It's different. We probably shouldn't make blanket statements like "swiftspear/TC is bad/good because reasons" because there are now two distinct archetypes of UR and even these archetypes have distinct builds within them.

It's probably a meta call, which is such a cop-out to say but there you have it, it's a total meta call.

[cab0747]

Can Snapcaster and TC play together? While it seems that they would not, I would be interested to see a list that ran a 2/2 or 2/3 split (one way or another).

[echofish]

"It's important to note that daze and goblin guide absolutely do NOT belong in the same deck. Daze loses its value when you have the distinct possibility of giving your opponent lands."

Goblin Guide doesn't give the opponent more lands. He can give them more spells. If is was a land on top, they would have drawn it anyway, so it doesn't make Daze worse.

[Koby]

So I guess Delver decks just don't need Draw-3s! Case closed! Snapcaster is more than enough!

These are different lists, with different strategy. One uses 8 burn spells. The other uses 8 free counterspells. Good use of critical thinking!

[ThiefSlayer]

I cannot believe it. Seriously I am in shock that TC is not just playable, but apparently really good. It looked so incredibly shitty to me and I went to great lengths to tell everyone it was garbage!

Well, I fully admit I was wrong. I'm still not convinced it's 4-of worthy, but when reviewing the games that Bob Huang played, it's become apparent that its early game function is FoW fodder, so maybe 4 is the right call! I mean I can't argue with his results can I?

That said, I STILL don't think monestary swiftspear is anything to write home about. In a lot of games he topdecked it and it only swung in for 1 damage in situations where goblin guide would have been better.

It certainly seems to me like this archetype is splitting into snapcaster/price decks and pyro/swiftspear decks. Personally I'm not gonna stop playing with snapcaster because that card is just my absolute favorite creature ever to play with, and I'm not convinced swiftspear fits in my current deck. I also am not sure treasure cruise fits in my current deck since I rely so heavily on flashback and grim lavamancer.

What I'm saying is basically: Treasure cruise and swiftspear are apparently very good, but you have to SERIOUSLY change your deck to make them work. Don't just jam them into your deck and call it a day, you have to really think about what you're doing with them.

It's important to note that daze and goblin guide absolutely do NOT belong in the same deck. Daze loses its value when you have the distinct possibility of giving your opponent lands.

Another important note is that swiftspear rewards casting spells on your turn. This isn't a bad thing it's just important to remember what you're playing with. It means you're not going for the control game, you're going for the aggro route, except without price of progress. Seems weird to me come to think of it.

Look the point I'm making is that despite both decks including only two colors and delver, this new list is by and large its own creation. It's a new thing. It's different. We probably shouldn't make blanket statements like "swiftspear/TC is bad/good because reasons" because there are now two distinct archetypes of UR and even these archetypes have distinct builds within them.

It's probably a meta call, which is such a cop-out to say but there you have it, it's a total meta call.

Yeah, it's totally a different kind of game. UR Burn Delver is something like Guide beating in the very early game, Delver flying over goyf's heads and burning going straight up. Yeah, not absolutely this way since you may sometimes burn the enemy's creatures, but it's pretty much it. And also, price of progress showing your opponent that their progress should not go unchecked and hitting them for tons of damage. UR Burn is meant to finish the game as early as possible, and stopping goyfs not by killing or countering it, but but making they stay on defensive because of your guide when they are at 8 life.

The line of play of this new UR decklist goes more for the grindy kind of game, as it's list makes more value of Pyromancer and Swiftspear with it's tons of cantrips and board-whipping spells (that's why it runs a 2-1 split of forked/chain instead of the other way around). It's supposed to make a great board presence with pyromancer and fast clock with delver, but not as fast and board-ignoring clock as UR Burn Delver. I mean, that's what I guess is the line taken when I see the list.

I only disagree with the daze/guide statement. Both are incredible cards at the early game, and that's the moment you have to hit them in the face and counter their spells, and daze does it without denying you the possibility of playing the cards you have to play in the beginning of the game. If your opponent has few lands, daze is great and if it has too much PoP is beyond great.

[kaminamina]

"It's important to note that daze and goblin guide absolutely do NOT belong in the same deck. Daze loses its value when you have the distinct possibility of giving your opponent lands."

Goblin Guide doesn't give the opponent more lands. He can give them more spells. If is was a land on top, they would have drawn it anyway, so it doesn't make Daze worse.
I am pretty consistently unimpressed by daze in UR. I think daze is incredible in a deck that runs wasteland and even more incredible in a deck that runs stifle and wasteland but if you're not running either I'd rather fill those slots with spell pierces and/or burn. But it's all opinion in the end, and I might be wrong in light of Huang's deck.

I think the list will evolve over time though and it will either gain wastes or lose daze.

[JDK]

It's important to note that daze and goblin guide absolutely do NOT belong in the same deck. Daze loses its value when you have the distinct possibility of giving your opponent lands.
This is just wrong and shortsighted, as others already pointed out. Daze is about aggression, which is exactly what Goblin Guide is also in the deck for. Guide gets worse the longer the game goes on and Daze helps you slow down the pace of the game. You dont care about giving the opponent lands (PoP says hi). You care about getting the beats in.

[kaminamina]

Alright a lot of people are calling me out on my goblin guide/daze comment so I'll just address you all together.

The last time UR Delver took first place at a large tournament it was (unless I'm mistaken) Andrew Schneider's list, which you can find here. (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7322&d=241953&f=LE) It is, in my opinion, the quintessential UR Burn deck. It doesn't have any bells or whistles; It's 8 beaters, 13 burn spells (I'm counting lavamancer as burn), 4 snapcasters, 6 counterspells, and then a whole lot of cantrips. That's the deck, that's what he ran with, and it worked. It's about as straight forward as deck building can be. The only thing that people were confused about was the lack of daze.

It turns out that when your strategy is to just burn them out, daze doesn't actually help you a whole lot. You don't have any mana denial so the 1 mana is negligible after the first few turns (unless your opponent is just bad; playing around daze is one of the first things you learn to do in legacy), and bouncing a land is a tempo play on yourself because it keeps you off snapcaster mana. Remember, unlike RUG and this newer UR tempo style of deck, you actually run a pseudo-4-drop since one of your most consistent win conditions is flashing back price. Being able to flash back bolt on turn 3 is also huge since it puts another body on the field. In my personal experience daze is incredibly underwhelming in decks that run snapcaster. Decks that run snapcaster are probably also running price, decks that run price are probably running goblin guide, therefore I think guide and daze don't belong in the same deck for several reasons.

In this newer tempo style of deck you really only need like 2 mana to win. With pyromancer and swiftblade you want as mana 0 mana cards as you can, so 4 daze is probably fine, plus you don't need huge amounts of mana (you know it's legacy when 4 mana is a huge amount of mana). So daze is probably ok here.

Actually, it's definitely at least "ok" here because Huang just wrecked that SCG open with 4 daze. However I'm just not sure it's the best choice since you don't run waste.

In my opinion waste and daze are best friends, and waste is already incredibly strong. I don't think going up to 14 lands and 4 wastes (cutting a treasure cruise probably) is out of the question for Huang's deck. I also don't think that cutting daze for 3 spell pierce and 1 chain lighting (or 2 pierce/2 chains or whatever the hell you want in those slots) is out the question.

Remember that this deck is brand new. The cards haven't even been legal for more than a week. When asked, Huang said he brought 4 treasure cruise "because he had a feeling about them;" it seems to me like he's a very skilled player and he was testing these new cards out, and it turns out that hey, the test is a rousing success. Just because he won the open doesn't mean his list is infallible and legacy decks aren't perfected the first time they win a tournament.

And finally, this is all opinion based on anecdotal evidence. If you call someone's opinion on magic cards wrong you probably just have different experiences with the cards than them, and that's fine, but it's important to recognize that unless I test every card I'm discussing like a thousand times against every other tier 1 or 2 deck I won't have an actual basis to call any of it fact, and neither do you.

Example:
I only disagree with the daze/guide statement. Both are incredible cards at the early game, and that's the moment you have to hit them in the face and counter their spells, and daze does it without denying you the possibility of playing the cards you have to play in the beginning of the game. If your opponent has few lands, daze is great and if it has too much PoP is beyond great.
That's a really good point, they are both incredible early game cards. I still disagree with you but at least we both have reasons. I never considered running both daze and PoP as "hedging your bets" so to speak.

By saying "I disagree with you" he immediately suggests that it's an opinion, and the rest of the post comes across as conversational instead of confrontational.


This is just wrong and shortsighted, as others already pointed out. Daze is about aggression, which is exactly what Goblin Guide is also in the deck for. Guide gets worse the longer the game goes on and Daze helps you slow down the pace of the game. You dont care about giving the opponent lands (PoP says hi). You care about getting the beats in.
When you start your post out with "this is just wrong" you imply that everything you're writing afterward is fact. It literally cannot be fact because it's a card game. You also say "Daze is about aggression" which isn't strictly speaking incorrect, but it also ignores the fact that it can be used to great effect as a control card. You say you don't care about giving the opponent lands, which is true for price of progress, but not really true about daze because it gets worse the more mana they have. Show me a miracle player tapping out for entreat the angels and I will show you a bad miracle player.

Anyway sorry for the long post I took like 60mg of adderall this morning and I'm more wired than a car bomb

[Koby]

I think the Daze / Goblin Guide dichotomy makes sense, at least from having played the GG side of that equation to a great finish. That side of the spectrum is a glorified burn deck, and you don't care about any spell the opponent plays so long as it prevents you from winning. Young Pyromancer, on the other hand, fits more along the lines of Daze and has incredible synergy with it (turn 2, protect YP against removal, make a 1/1).

It's at the point where updating either list (YP/Daze and GG/Burn) with new cards like Treasure Cruise comes at an opportunity cost of eliminating some other element in the deck.

I believe that Huang's list reflects the lowered reliance on burn (Chain lightning, POP) in order to fuel more cantrip chains for Monastary Swiftspear.
I think Monastary Swiftspear still has a solid place in the GG/Burn variations, as at least this aspect both decks share (chaining cantrips, main phase burn).

[ThiefSlayer]

Example:
That's a really good point, they are both incredible early game cards. I still disagree with you but at least we both have reasons. I never considered running both daze and PoP as "hedging your bets" so to speak.

By saying "I disagree with you" he immediately suggests that it's an opinion, and the rest of the post comes across as conversational instead of confrontational.


When you start your post out with "this is just wrong" you imply that everything you're writing afterward is fact. It literally cannot be fact because it's a card game. You also say "Daze is about aggression" which isn't strictly speaking incorrect, but it also ignores the fact that it can be used to great effect as a control card. You say you don't care about giving the opponent lands, which is true for price of progress, but not really true about daze because it gets worse the more mana they have. Show me a miracle player tapping out for entreat the angels and I will show you a bad miracle player.

Anyway sorry for the long post I took like 60mg of adderall this morning and I'm more wired than a car bomb

I actually agree with everything you said in this post. I guess it's just about how we value different things of the game. Here are two things that I use to consider when I play daze: I have to have at least 8 counterspells in this deck (this is kinda arbitrary, and just my opinion on this deck), and the early game for this deck defines how will be the pace of the game and the way your opponent uses his resources.

In my experience there are 3 or 4 different MD counterspell choises for this deck: Force of Will (I guess there's no discussion about this), daze, spell pierce and flusterstorm.

Flusterstorm is really rare to be seen in MD but that's something I'd maybe test someday. I mean, beside the other 3 before mentioned, this is the best IMO. But let's make it about the choise between daze and spell pierce, just mentioned flusterstorm for people not to say that this was arbitrary or something like this.

The differences between these 2 are: Daze slows your pace in 1 land drop when it's used and spell pierce requires one spare land when you want it to be active. Also, spell pierce doesn't counter creatures, which may be huge in some matchups (but most of the times it just counters another instant/sorcery anyway). Daze permission is for 1 mana and spell pierce is for 2, which is actually a huge difference in terms of being able to play around it.

But for me what matters the most is the T1 play. Most of the times, if you play a T1 creature it's answered right away so that the enemy doesn't get attacked, and if he plays around daze it's really great as his resources get limited and he may get one shot or two before removing your threats, which mean an extra bolt of value out of your creature. Sometimes he will not be able to play around it, so he will fall right into the trap. The point here is that daze IMO is the best protection for the T1 creature, or even to assure your bolt in the opponent's T1 creature wont get countered (FoW is assured, but the card disadvantage can hurt us more than losing the creature). Hands with creature, daze, cantrip, bolt, land are the best possible IMO, and that's what I think that makes daze so special.

There's also the other side that daze's value as the game goes by gets really low as spellpierce still can be really though to play around, and also pierce can be realistically flashed back with snapcaster (while daze still can but probably won't). I guess the choise between these two counters is about how much you value your very early game (when you can't have spare mana without losing a lot of efficiency) instead of your late game. Anyway, I think that both cards are still really bad topdecks in late game.

PS.: I just realized that one of the points that makes us disagree with each other is that I value a lot having 8 counterspells while you can live without it. I actually will try lowering it to 6 or 7 counterspells, with daze, spell pierce AND with flusterstorm (I always wanted to play it MD) just to see how much I miss those 2 copies. Anyways, thank you for your big post, this shows not who's wrong or right but the reason why we take one line or another.

[JDK]

It turns out that when your strategy is to just burn them out, daze doesn't actually help you a whole lot. You don't have any mana denial so the 1 mana is negligible after the first few turns (unless your opponent is just bad; playing around daze is one of the first things you learn to do in legacy), and bouncing a land is a tempo play on yourself because it keeps you off snapcaster mana. Remember, unlike RUG and this newer UR tempo style of deck, you actually run a pseudo-4-drop since one of your most consistent win conditions is flashing back price. Being able to flash back bolt on turn 3 is also huge since it puts another body on the field. In my personal experience daze is incredibly underwhelming in decks that run snapcaster. Decks that run snapcaster are probably also running price, decks that run price are probably running goblin guide, therefore I think guide and daze don't belong in the same deck for several reasons.
Exactly, Daze loses value as the game goes on. So does Goblin Guide. You don't play for the long run, as UR Delver is about early aggression. That's where both cards shine and when arguing against them you should weigh in what they actually do for you in this stage of the game. "Loses momentum as the game goes on" is not an argument against cards helping you play your strategy to the fullest extent, which is "acting as the aggressor early on", to begin with.

I don't know how much experience you actually have with the archetype and Snapcaster builds in general, but no, Flashbacked-PoPs are far from "one of your most consistent win conditions".


When you start your post out with "this is just wrong" you imply that everything you're writing afterward is fact. It literally cannot be fact because it's a card game. You also say "Daze is about aggression" which isn't strictly speaking incorrect, but it also ignores the fact that it can be used to great effect as a control card. You say you don't care about giving the opponent lands, which is true for price of progress, but not really true about daze because it gets worse the more mana they have. Show me a miracle player tapping out for entreat the angels and I will show you a bad miracle player.
Any particular reason why cardgames don't allow for facts? Was there anything untrue about my post? I don't think so. Just because Daze "can be used to great effect as a control card", which is mostly only true for aggressive decks to begin with, doesn't mean it isn't about aggression. You also don't really care about giving them lands, because they would still draw them on the next turn and (true for most games) play one land a turn at max. Since you're playing a deck made for the early stages of games, this is negligible for the most part. Hence the "you don't care about giving them lands". So I don't get your point.

[Humphrey]

I build the deck a strictly bit more forward


4 Treasure Cruise
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
3 Wasteland
2 Thought Scour
1 Forked Bolt
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Forked Bolt

[kaminamina]

I build the deck a strictly bit more forward


4 Treasure Cruise
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
3 Wasteland
2 Thought Scour
1 Forked Bolt
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Forked Bolt

What do you hope to achieve with lotus petal? I think running 17-18 lands, 8-10 of which are fetches, is gonna be your best bet. 8 fetches, 6-7 mana lands and 3-4 wastes is what I would run.

Why mishra's bauble? That card doesn't do anything. Probe draws you a card when you cast it, bauble is just really bad in my opinion. I get that it buffs monetary swiftspear but you shouldn't run bad cards just to make already good cards better. It would be like running seal of fire to buff goyf, at the end of the day you're running a sorcery speed shock.

In bauble's place I would run a permanent threat like pyromancer or goblin guide or even snapcaster, my favorite card.

I like thought scour. It cantrips and feeds your recalls. Good choice.

All in all I think you're focusing too hard on filling your gy for treasure cruise. You'll fill it up really quickly just by playing the game, but for to get value out of drawing cards you need to run enough spells that actually do something! What do you do if they decay your swiftspear? There's a real possibility that you spend the rest of the game durdling around with cantrips. But at least you can brag about how many cards your drew as they kill you with goyf! You definitely need more threats.

[kaminamina]

Exactly, Daze loses value as the game goes on. So does Goblin Guide. You don't play for the long run, as UR Delver is about early aggression. That's where both cards shine and when arguing against them you should weigh in what they actually do for you in this stage of the game. "Loses momentum as the game goes on" is not an argument against cards helping you play your strategy to the fullest extent, which is "acting as the aggressor early on", to begin with.

I don't know how much experience you actually have with the archetype and Snapcaster builds in general, but no, Flashbacked-PoPs are far from "one of your most consistent win conditions".


Any particular reason why cardgames don't allow for facts? Was there anything untrue about my post? I don't think so. Just because Daze "can be used to great effect as a control card", which is mostly only true for aggressive decks to begin with, doesn't mean it isn't about aggression. You also don't really care about giving them lands, because they would still draw them on the next turn and (true for most games) play one land a turn at max. Since you're playing a deck made for the early stages of games, this is negligible for the most part. Hence the "you don't care about giving them lands". So I don't get your point.

I dunno man I've won a metric shit ton of games on the back of snapcaster price. I've actually been playing ur counterburn since before delver got printed, but it was never any good until delver and snapcaster were printed. My first list resembling modern UR didn't actually run delver, I thought it was too inconsistent, lol. I built the deck around snapcaster.

So keeping that in mind: If you want to win ASAP, and snapcaster helps you win, and snapcaster costs 3-4 mana, why would you willingly bounce your own lands when you could just run more cards that kill your opponent? That's my logic anyway. You also want the majority of your spells to be good snapcaster targets, which daze is not. Snapping back spell pierce can be game changing. And it's not that daze can't also be gamechanging but it's nice to be able to flash back counters mid-lategame

You're still coming across really confrontation by the way, it's hard to have an actual conversation with you because of your "I know best and am better than you" tone.

[Jon]

I dunno man I've won a metric shit ton of games on the back of snapcaster price. I've actually been playing ur counterburn since before delver got printed, but it was never any good until delver and snapcaster were printed. My first list resembling modern UR didn't actually run delver, I thought it was too inconsistent, lol. I built the deck around snapcaster.

So keeping that in mind: If you want to win ASAP, and snapcaster helps you win, and snapcaster costs 3-4 mana, why would you willingly bounce your own lands when you could just run more cards that kill your opponent? That's my logic anyway. You also want the majority of your spells to be good snapcaster targets, which daze is not. Snapping back spell pierce can be game changing. And it's not that daze can't also be gamechanging but it's nice to be able to flash back counters mid-lategame

You're still coming across really confrontation by the way, it's hard to have an actual conversation with you because of your "I know best and am better than you" tone.

Completely agree, Snapcaster, Price is the best feeling in the world.

[Humphrey]

well the bauble buffs the spear and gives you more information. also it cycles for free through your deck so you find the threats faster. the petal synergizes very very well with treasure cruise, also buffs the spear and gives you nice t1 plays. its no problem to cast cruise turn1 and on turn2 again

[kaminamina]

well the bauble buffs the spear and gives you more information. also it cycles for free through your deck so you find the threats faster. the petal synergizes very very well with treasure cruise, also buffs the spear and gives you nice t1 plays. its no problem to cast cruise turn1

It's a really poor cycle though. It waits a whole turn to replace itself, that sucks. Plus the information is just one card. It's just really bad imo. Run more business.

I don't think lotus is any better than fetchlands. They both feed your graveyard but one sticks around. Again, don't run bad cards just to buff swiftblade.

And what's the point of turn 1 treasure cruise without a threat out? Not even vintage decks go turn 1 recall every time they have it in their opening 7, you have to establish a board presence (or just play oath, which is basically the same thing) before you start building card advantage.

[ThiefSlayer]

I build the deck a strictly bit more forward


4 Treasure Cruise
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
3 Wasteland
2 Thought Scour
1 Forked Bolt
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Forked Bolt

I would really like this list if it has pyromancer in it. I mean, the power of the deck is that the massive ammount of cantrips feeds swiftspear AND pyromancer. I think it seems flat and underpowered to depend only on swiftspear as it may get removed, and also isn't that fast of a clock even if you play 3 spells per turn.

[Humphrey]

ok, youre right. pyromancer is much better with petals now. before he was kinda clunky, but now you can cast it turn1. too bad he doesnt trigger on it ;) the baubles probalby just too cute but petals is the way to go.

4 Treasure Cruise
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Lotus Petal
3 Wasteland
2 Thought Scour
1 Forked Bolt
4 Young Pyromancer
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Forked Bolt

[kaminamina]

ok

4 Treasure Cruise
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Lotus Petal
3 Wasteland
2 Thought Scour
1 Forked Bolt
4 Young Pyromancer
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Forked Bolt

You have 12 "real" lands, 3 wastelands, and 4 temporary mana. That means you have 16 total colored mana sources, 4 or which can only be used once.

So what's the advantage of lotus petal over 2 more fetches and 1 of each basic? If the only reason you're running a card which is almost always worse than a land is to buff swiftspear you should probably replace them with lands. Unless there's something I'm somehow missing? You only have 4 cards more than 1 mana so what do you need the burst of mana for? I mean at this rate why not run 10 lands, lotus, and land grant?

Actually come to think of it that sounds really cool with young pyromancer. Oh man can you imagine turn 1 pyro with lotus into land grant, that would be so sick.

You should totally run land grant like all those oldschool 10 land stompy decks, that'd be awesome

[Humphrey]

land grant only fetches forest, so its kinda useless unless you build some wicked zoo list with it

[kaminamina]

land grant only fetches forest, so its kinda useless unless you build some wicked zoo list with it
Yep, forgot that part. My bad.

[ivanpei]

Does anyone has a revision of Bob Huang list that runs wastelands? I find it funny he doesn't run them. He appears to favor going full aggro instead.

[JDK]

So keeping that in mind: If you want to win ASAP, and snapcaster helps you win, and snapcaster costs 3-4 mana, why would you willingly bounce your own lands when you could just run more cards that kill your opponent? That's my logic anyway. You also want the majority of your spells to be good snapcaster targets, which daze is not. Snapping back spell pierce can be game changing. And it's not that daze can't also be gamechanging but it's nice to be able to flash back counters mid-lategame

You're still coming across really confrontation by the way, it's hard to have an actual conversation with you because of your "I know best and am better than you" tone.
Look, I don't care if I don't sound friendly or sympathetic to you. I am not here to comfort everyone and exchange woven bracelets. May I sound like a dick sometimes? Sure. At least I provide coherent arguments for the stuff I post.

That being said, in usual builds with 4 Snapcaster Mages and 2 PoPs SM + PoP-Flashback is rare compared to Beats + Bolts or simple PoPs.
Hitting three lands is fairly easy and if Snapcaster flashbacks Bolt, Pierce or Brainstorm he has already done enough, being the additional body he is. Do you seriously remember that many times where you didn't have a useful target for the mage? I cannot think of a single one.
To use your argument against you: Why would you willingly pitch your own cards when you could just run more cards that kill your opponent? Right, because of Manaless-Protection and to force stuff through. Same applies for Daze.

I also don't know why you are making this a Daze vs. Pierce now, since this was about Daze vs. GG and people (including me) have been running Dazes and Pierces in conjunction for years now - in UR Delver.

[iamajellydonut]

I find it funny he doesn't run them. He appears to favor going full aggro instead.

The problem is that pure aggro is the only option once you fill your deck with twenty cantrips and twelve creatures. You can say "oh, but he might get blown out by" or "wouldn't it be so cool if", but the fact of the matter is that swinging across the table with more shit than your opponent can deal with is the only path you can take. Adding Wasteland doesn't improve any match-ups and it decreases the consistency of the deck.

[ivanpei]

I've found wasteland to be very good in UR Delver even when the deck ran Goblin Guide. It's basically a time walk and let's you swing an extra turn with your guys before they drop their bombs. Also it gives Daze extra effectiveness and makes the card useful even into the mid game. If my opponent Durdles a bit cantripping for lands, wasteland has already done it's job. Also this deck is not mana intensive so it can dedicate slots to wasteland.

[iamajellydonut]

Also this deck is not mana intensive so it can dedicate slots to wasteland.

The deck is not mana intensive, no, but it is source light. Which of those lands do you want to take out for Wasteland? I hear thirteen colored mana sources is perfect. Or maybe you can take out some Lightning Bolts?

Wasteland is unnecessary and creates inconsistency. No amount of "if I'm on the play and have a Daze I can get another Shock out of my Goblin Guide!" invalidates those problems.

[kaminamina]

The deck is not mana intensive, no, but it is source light. Which of those lands do you want to take out for Wasteland? I hear thirteen colored mana sources is perfect. Or maybe you can take out some Lightning Bolts?

Wasteland is unnecessary and creates inconsistency. No amount of "if I'm on the play and have a Daze I can get another Shock out of my Goblin Guide!" invalidates those problems.
I agree, ur delver isn't a tempo deck it's an aggro deck through and through.

At least, it should be. You can build it as a tempo deck but I don't see the point since rug does the same thing better.

[ivanpei]

I would agree with you but RUG is dead since it is the only Delver deck that cannot run Cruise. I think Bob's list is not quite full aggro because he still does not play Price of Progress and to the Dome cards like Fireblast. Anyway I will try with and without wastelands.

I was planning on running the following manabase:
3 Volcanic
1 island
1 mountain
10 fetches
3 wastelands

I'd cut the single chain lightning for the extra land.

[kaminamina]

I would agree with you but RUG is dead since it is the only Delver deck that cannot run Cruise. I think Bob's list is not quite full aggro because he still does not play Price of Progress and to the Dome cards like Fireblast. Anyway I will try with and without wastelands.

I was planning on running the following manabase:
3 Volcanic
1 island
1 mountain
10 fetches
3 wastelands

I'd cut the single chain lightning for the extra land.
How does any goyf deck run cruise though? The only reason UR can do it is because you fill your graveyard but don't care about it. I can't really see BUG running cruise. Feels like UWR is gonna be the new tempo/control deck.

[Collman]

Does anyone has a revision of Bob Huang list that runs wastelands? I find it funny he doesn't run them. He appears to favor going full aggro instead.

I've been playing his list all day today and I've won quite a few games because I managed to play 3 or even 4 spells in a turn with Pyromancer or Swiftspear in play. The way the list is constructed wasteland doesn't help you cast almost anything so I don't think you should count it as part of the mana base but rather of the disruption package.
I've also felt that the mana base is pretty tight, specially in games that involve wasteland or Hymn/lili taking lands out of your hand. I've cantripped looking for lands somewhat often since with 3 lands and Pyro/Swiftspear you can really "go off" out of nowhere. Having the basics in play instead of Volcs have sometimes been a problem too since the deck is so color intensive. I wouldn't really love taking actual lands for wastelands.

So if you want to play wastelands I think you have to remove spells, not lands. Which ones are you going to take out? No matter what you take, you're hurting the Pyromancer / Swiftspear plan if not the Treasure Cruise one too for the chance of a blowout with wasteland and to make your dazes a little better.

I love wasteland as a card, specially in a deck that runs daze, but I don't think that's what this list is about. Maybe now that we have some proof of how awesome TC someone can build a good list that incorporates TC + wasteland, but I don't think it'll just be "Huang's list with wastelands". Eh, maybe I'm wrong, I suck at predicting things.

[ivanpei]

BUG can run 2 comfortably, 3 might be a stretch. Goyf can survive on the opponents yard and 1-2 odd card types from your own yard. But BUG Delver definitely cannot run the full set. Uwr delver may be able to run a full set but might suffer from clunkiness so may end up running 3 only.

I also play UWR Delver and im currently running 3 copies of Cruise to great success. Casting 2 per game is effortless.

[kaminamina]

BUG can run 2 comfortably, 3 might be a stretch. Goyf can survive on the opponents yard and 1-2 odd card types from your own yard. But BUG Delver definitely cannot run the full set. Uwr delver may be able to run a full set but might suffer from clunkiness so may end up running 3 only.

I also play UWR Delver and im currently running 3 copies of Cruise to great success. Casting 2 per game is effortless.
I'm still not convinced 4 is right for THIS deck. Seems too likely you'll draw them when they're dead.

I also want to cut daze. Maybe gut shot!



(That was a joke don't worry)

[cab0747]

My buddy inspired me to put together the UR Delver "Burn" list last week (good timing, Kyle). After seeing Bob's results and deck from this pas weekend, I wanted to see if I could fit in treasure Cruise into the more burn-focused deck. This is very rough draft. Once Khans is released online, I can do some testing. Until then I may jam a few games with friends.


2 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa

3 Treasure Cruise
4 Goblin guide - (Will also test with 4 Monastary Swiftspear in this slot)
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing needle
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod


Do you see any glaring holes? I doubt this is optimal, but I think it is a good place to start. I am interested to see if I can get the Treasure Cruise and Snapcaster Mage in the same deck and not have them stepping on each others toes the entire game.

[Chaam]

Well Wasteland only casts Tarmogoyf in RUG Delver and their mana denial plan wins a lot of games for them. Wasteland is valuable in this deck, yes it only casts pyro but that's fine.

I haven't sleeved it up yet, as I am deciding between this deck or ANT for the Legacy GP in November but if I did it would look something like this:

Creatures (12)
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Young Pyromancer

Sorceries (11)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
3x Treasure Cruise

Instants (20)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will

Lands (17)
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
4x Volcanic Island
1x Island
4x Wasteland

This would be my shell. Would have to experiment on whether you want an 18th land or go down to 16, whether you want the 4th cruise, if you want spell snare or spell pierce in the mb, maybe a chain lightning or forked bolt, even some preordain, etc.

[Lemnear]

I don't see a point in running SCM alongside of TC. SCM into Bolt costs 3 mana in a single turn, TC into Bolt 2 and you get two additional cards in exchance for the 2/1 Body SCM has. Is this even close to being comparable?

I have to question all these Burn spells and the Spell Pierces if you are already running TC. IMO the Bolts are kinda redundant and limited in their flexibility if you already run massive draw like TC. Why not using cantrips like Probe or Thought Scour to feed your graveyard for TC and draw into your selection of Burn-spells instead of them bricking your hand in matchups which require counterspells? Why Spell Pierce if you can gain a massive advantage against the current metagame and expected TC-wars if you run mainboard Pyroblasts? Is there any point in running more than 1 basic each?

[kaminamina]

I don't see a point in running SCM alongside of TC. SCM into Bolt costs 3 mana in a single turn, TC into Bolt 2 and you get two additional cards in exchance for the 2/1 Body SCM has. Is this even close to being comparable?

Yeah, actually, they're very comparable. Snapcaster garauntees (assuming no disruption obviously) a specific card in the yard, with complete certainty; if your opponent is at 3 life, snaps can garauntee a win, while cruise can only probably give you the win.

(You can argue that snaps is really bad against deathrite, and you're right, but you can also argue that cruise is bad against spell pierce so I think it's not a point worth bringing up.)

Furthermore, snapping back a bolt to remove a blocker on end step and being left with a 2/1 is fucking great. Snapcaster gets there man, if 2/1s didn't swing in he wouldn't be a good card.

They're both good for different reasons but it's not like there's a clear cut answer.

[Humphrey]

Snapcaster is useless in this deck now. Way to mana intensive and worse than TC, both in card advantage and synergy

[kaminamina]

My buddy inspired me to put together the UR Delver "Burn" list last week (good timing, Kyle). After seeing Bob's results and deck from this pas weekend, I wanted to see if I could fit in treasure Cruise into the more burn-focused deck. This is very rough draft. Once Khans is released online, I can do some testing. Until then I may jam a few games with friends.


2 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa

3 Treasure Cruise
4 Goblin guide - (Will also test with 4 Monastary Swiftspear in this slot)
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing needle
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod


Do you see any glaring holes? I doubt this is optimal, but I think it is a good place to start. I am interested to see if I can get the Treasure Cruise and Snapcaster Mage in the same deck and not have them stepping on each others toes the entire game.

Alright this kind of list is my forte because I've been running it for-fucking-ever. Couple things:

You should certainly test swiftspear vs. guide, I have no idea which is better. They're too new to say for sure but in the UR variant it certainly seems like swiftspear is the better card so far. Which is a shame since I bought those guides. Whatever.

I don't think daze is worth running. This deck is at its strongest at 3-4 mana, and daze delays that turn. I've also written like 4 or 5 posts full of reasons I don't like daze on the last few pages if you're interested.

If you're playing snapcaster and price, go for 2 price and 4 snapcaster, with a 3rd price in the board. A lot of tier 1 decks just don't care about price (Death and Taxes will rarely take more than 2 damage, and any good miracles player won't take more than 2 either) and you don't want to draw dead cards in any matchup. Snapcaster is just so strong that you definitely want 3-4 if you're running it.

I also think it's important to run at least 12 permanent threats. In the list I ran immediately before the printing of khans I ran 14.

Also, Flooded Strand? Really? Misty Rainforest has way better art.

All that being said here's the list I'd run, going off what you've provided:

2 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa

3 Treasure Cruise
4 Goblin guide / Monestary Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing needle
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod

[kaminamina]

Snapcaster is useless in this deck now. Way to mana intensive and worse than TC, both in card advantage and synergy

I could not disagree more. I already ran a list with grim lavamancer and snapcaster and it was fine. And looking at snapcaster as "1 for 1" card advantage is ignoring both the 2/1 body and the fact that you get to choose the card you flash back.

I'll admit that he might not be a 4-of anymore but he is far from useless.

And remember, there are two ur decks now, a burn based one with snapcaster and a tempo/creature based one with pyromancer. In the pyromancer version you shouldn't run snapcaster, and vice versa, but that was already true before treasure cruise was printed because snapcaster and pyromancer are pretty much opposite cards.

I think 4 treasure cruise is gonna be pretty much standard now in the pyro lists but there's no reason you can't run 2-3 in the snapcaster list, just cut grim lavamancer.

[cab0747]

I think 4 treasure cruise is gonna be pretty much standard now in the pyro lists but there's no reason you can't run 2-3 in the snapcaster list, just cut grim lavamancer.

This was my thought. I am starting with a 2 Snap / 3 Cruise split with no lavamancers.

[kaminamina]

This was my thought. I am starting with a 2 Snap / 3 Cruise split with no lavamancers.

2 feels really threat-light though. I wouldn't go below 12 creatures, but that's just me. Maybe something like 4 delver, 3 goblin guide, 3 swiftspear, 2 snapcaster?

[cab0747]

You should certainly test swiftspear vs. guide, I have no idea which is better. They're too new to say for sure but in the UR variant it certainly seems like swiftspear is the better card so far. Which is a shame since I bought those guides. Whatever.

Noted. I will test on paper probably this week and then on MTGO once Khans is released.


I don't think daze is worth running. This deck is at its strongest at 3-4 mana, and daze delays that turn. I've also written like 4 or 5 posts full of reasons I don't like daze on the last few pages if you're interested.

This was brought up when my friends and I were discussing the deck earlier. I will see how it runs with and without Daze.


If you're playing snapcaster and price, go for 2 price and 4 snapcaster, with a 3rd price in the board. A lot of tier 1 decks just don't care about price (Death and Taxes will rarely take more than 2 damage, and any good miracles player won't take more than 2 either) and you don't want to draw dead cards in any matchup. Snapcaster is just so strong that you definitely want 3-4 if you're running it.

4 Snaps with the Treasure Cruises seemed greedy to me. Again, I will test and see how it works out. Right now, I will stick with the 2/2 split. I agree that 3 price may be too much


I also think it's important to run at least 12 permanent threats. In the list I ran immediately before the printing of khans I ran 14.

I will keep an eye out for this when testing. I will admit the number of permanent threats was not considered when drafting this list.


Also, Flooded Strand? Really? Misty Rainforest has way better art.

I have UR Delver, UWR Delver, and Miracles in the same sleeves to switch back and forth easily. Strands are only for convenience. I agree that Misties look better ;)


All that being said here's the list I'd run, going off what you've provided:

2 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa

3 Treasure Cruise
4 Goblin guide / Monestary Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing needle
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod

The only gripe I have with this was mentioned above: I feel like running a higher number for Cruises and the full 4 Snaps may not work well together. Again, with no testing so far, I have no evidence to back this up. I will test and see if the numbers could be adjusted.

Thanks for the feedback!

[cab0747]

2 feels really threat-light though. I wouldn't go below 12 creatures, but that's just me. Maybe something like 4 delver, 3 goblin guide, 3 swiftspear, 2 snapcaster?

I was actually just thinking something like this!

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Haha hi guys. I'll write something up for CFB, but here are some quick replies from my phone. I actually drew 3 cruises vs shardless on camera in round 8. Cruise is just too good. I'm okay with shuffling away extras and pitching them to fow, but I always want one. After the first, the second becomes easier to cast. Stifle/waste are fine but less good when expected and they don't synergize with swiftspear.

It seems to me that UR-Delver, UWR Delver or Grixis Delver are the best fits for Treasure Cruise and YP/Swiftspear.

Have you thought about going Grixis and replacing reactive disruption like Spell Pierce/Daze with active disruption like Cabal Therapy (combo with YP/Probe) and/or Thoughtseize?

Basically take Eric Rill's Grixis shell from last year and replace Dark Confidant with Treasure Cruise and Stifle with Swiftspear.

[FANAttIC]

I played UR delver until True-Name Nemesis got printed. After that, merfolk keeps me entertained, so I am here as intruder and spy.
But I just love this deck (always in shock when I win matches and tournaments with this since everything looks so underpowered).

Few observations:
Misties over Strands, obv.
Agree with 2 PoPs main, one side. I always find them in game one if needed. Because of them, I never played Wastelands.
Grixis Delver is my secret crush (YP + Probe + Therapy is so dreamy) which I never played. Hopefully Bob's win inspire Rill to make another winner.
I was thinking about replacing sacred cow Ponder with Thought Scour. I am aware what Ponder brings, but I also think that having open Spell Pierce/Brainstorm/Bolt mana gives more protection, and firing off Scour eot have mostly the same effect as first turn Ponder. It feeds Snapcaster and Treasure Cruise, removes Brainstorm trash at the top just like Ponder (but we probably have to shuffle after), it is probably brutal in Grixis Delver when we cast Therapy, they Brainstorm and we clear the "saved" cards and so on.
Without Thought Scour I would only play 3 Cruise, that seems like a perfect number.
14 creatures was my ideal number. Nothing changed for me about that.

TL&DR, what do you think about Thought Scour in this deck?

[kaminamina]

I would never in a million years cut ponder. It's the second best card in the deck, dwarfed only by brainstorm.

[KobeBryan]

I would never in a million years cut ponder. It's the second best card in the deck, dwarfed only by brainstorm.

I like preordain. I get better card quality over ponder. But thats just me.

[Neffy]

Took this list to a tourny yesterday and went 5-1 netting me 2nd place.

Main deck:
4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
4 Pyromancer
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Probe
3 T. Cruise
4 FoW
4 Daze
2 spell pierce
2 Forked bolt
4 Bolt
1 Chain Lightning
3 Volcanic island
2 island
2 mountain
10 Fetch

Board:
2 elecktrickery
1 null rod
2 REB
2 Relic of Prog.
2 Surgical Extr.
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
2 Smash to smithereens

Matches:
U/G burn/ramp 2-0
D&T 2-0
ANT 2-0
Miracles 0-2
Omni show 2-0
U/R delver mirror 2-1

Notes/comments:
M.Swiftspear performed way better than expected. Beat for 2-3 or even 4, and the 3 toughness is priceless. I will not be using GG again compared to this.
T.Cruise is awesome. Insane topdeck lategame (if you get there) and easy to delve. I think 4 is too much, 1 too few, so I will be testing between 2 and 3.
Pierce main worked alright. I think I will keep them in for now. Didnt miss more cantrips.
17 lands worked good. sometimes I got stuck with 1, but it was never an issue.
Smash in board will be shattering sprees for easier casting.
Not sure on surgicals even tho they fit well with our red dudes.
Never saw Elecktrickery, but it must be good in the mirror.
Miracle matchup is really bad. I think i will board 2 needles, 2 null rods next time.

Overall experience
U/R delver got a huge boost with the new cards. Very fun to play and very consistent!

[FANAttIC]

Congrats!

Matches:
U/G burn/ramp 2-0
Could you describe this deck?

Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him :tongue:

[Quizzlemanizzle]

You should not run Red Elemental Blast. Pyroblast is considerably better in this list as you can cast it without the required target to trigger Young Pyromancer or Monastery Swiftspear when you need to.

[Juice11]

I've actually dropped down to 2 ponders in this deck in favor of more chain lightnings. I feel like 4 probes, 4 brainstorm, 2 ponder and 3 cruise is plenty of cantrips. At some point you need to cantrip into action, not more cantrips. I have also always been a fan of having more reach in this deck. I honestly haven't even noticed they were gone.

[Kamus]

I've actually dropped down to 2 ponders in this deck in favor of more chain lightnings. I feel like 4 probes, 4 brainstorm, 2 ponder and 3 cruise is plenty of cantrips. At some point you need to cantrip into action, not more cantrips. I have also always been a fan of having more reach in this deck. I honestly haven't even noticed they were gone.

I'd never cut Ponder in a tempo deck that runs with just 17 lands. TC is not a cantrip and you'll certainly be mana screw a lot of times

[kombatkiwi]

I probably wouldn't cut ponders either, cantrips seem even better now (in the SCG list) because

a) Swiftspear
b) Pyromancer
c) Treasure Cruise

All of these cards go really well with a cycling sorcery

[ThiefSlayer]

Ponder is specially great with probe. You can see what your opponent is up to and search for the cards you need. Brainstorm is also great at this, but with ponder if you dont find it in the first 3 cards you can just shuffle your deck and search for the 4th card. Also, if you don't have fetchlands to shuffle after brainstorm and you dont find what you need, well, that really sucks!

It's great in T1 when you need to find lands (IE a hand with only 1 volcanic island, extremely dangerous keep against decks with wasteland if you dont have ponder), or when you need to find action, or specially when you are facing combo and need extra protection. I think ponder is waaaaaay more important than chain lightning.

In the late game, if you are depending on the topdeck to find something, drawing a ponder is the same as 4 chances to find what you need. It's just that good.

[Koby]

If you're playing snapcaster and price, go for 2 price and 4 snapcaster, with a 3rd price in the board. A lot of tier 1 decks just don't care about price (Death and Taxes will rarely take more than 2 damage, and any good miracles player won't take more than 2 either) and you don't want to draw dead cards in any matchup. Snapcaster is just so strong that you definitely want 3-4 if you're running it.


I agree with the numbers, but I would probably trim SCM down to 3 since there will also be TC in the new lists. However, I think you are mistaken about D&T. They have a ton of non-basics and PoP / Snap-Pop is actually a high value play against them. Between Karakas, Port, and some versions running Horizon Canopy or Mishra's Factory you can easily get them for 4 damage. This will be important against Brimaz or Jitte encounters. I agree with PoP #3 in the sideboard against decks like Jund or Delver.



2 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa

3 Treasure Cruise
4 Goblin guide / Monestary Swiftspear
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt


I would play the hell out of this list, but I would not play less than 4 Probe. Probe + Monastary Swiftspear + TC is too much synergy and gets you deeper into your deck to find the finishing burn.

[kaminamina]

I agree with the numbers, but I would probably trim SCM down to 3 since there will also be TC in the new lists. However, I think you are mistaken about D&T. They have a ton of non-basics and PoP / Snap-Pop is actually a high value play against them. Between Karakas, Port, and some versions running Horizon Canopy or Mishra's Factory you can easily get them for 4 damage. This will be important against Brimaz or Jitte encounters. I agree with PoP #3 in the sideboard against decks like Jund or Delver.



I would play the hell out of this list, but I would not play less than 4 Probe. Probe + Monastary Swiftspear + TC is too much synergy and gets you deeper into your deck to find the finishing burn.

The problem with hitting dnt for 4 is that they run life gain and you'll probably be snapping back bolts to kill their problem minions. In my experience the key to dnt is killing their dudes and swinging in rather than trying to win guns blazing.

[Lemnear]

Is there any damn point of not running Goblin Guide alongside Swiftspear and cut the damn Snapcasters?

[kaminamina]

Is there any damn point of not running Goblin Guide alongside Swiftspear and cut the damn Snapcasters?
Yes, one is a utility creature and the other is an aggro creature. If I cut snapcaster for anything it'll be for young pyromancer. Which is pretty much what everyone is doing at this point. Running swiftspear and pyro it's insanely strong.

Also, "damn snapcasters?" That card is so good, it's like a two mana blowjob. You cast it, then you remove a blocker and then next turn you have a 2/1 beater! And don't be fooled, snapcaster beats get there. I've won many a game as RWU delver (jeskai? Still sounds weird to me) by flashing back two removal spells and just killing them with two 2/1s. (This was back when jeskai ran geist and snapcaster, I haven't played the deck in a while and it's totally different now.)

[cab0747]

Is there any damn point of not running Goblin Guide alongside Swiftspear and cut the damn Snapcasters?

BUT WAHT IF WE CAN SNAP/TREASURE CRUISE!?!?!?one?

Snap to help us get the last bolt or price to finish the job is VERY tempting. I agree that it may not work, but I haven't seen any evidence either way. I want to test with 2 snaps. If they are garbage with TC, then I would try cutting them and put a mixture of Swiftspear/GG in their place.

Still early in testing with these cards. let's just see how it works out.

[Koby]

The problem with hitting dnt for 4 is that they run life gain and you'll probably be snapping back bolts to kill their problem minions. In my experience the key to dnt is killing their dudes and swinging in rather than trying to win guns blazing.

My experience with the matchup was that you're boarding into Lava Spikes and Smash to Smithereens, while boarding out counterspells. It's a pure race, with sometimes pointing removal at their creatures if Jitte seems imminent. Any burn spell is going to be of value.

[LeoCop 90]

Defining swiftspear an utility creature is wrong. It is an aggro creature exactly like goblin guide, except that in this deck is a lot better than guide.... But running the full 8x doesn't seem an heresy to me.

[Lemnear]

Yes, one is a utility creature and the other is an aggro creature. If I cut snapcaster for anything it'll be for young pyromancer. Which is pretty much what everyone is doing at this point. Running swiftspear and pyro it's insanely strong.

Also, "damn snapcasters?" That card is so good, it's like a two mana blowjob. You cast it, then you remove a blocker and then next turn you have a 2/1 beater! And don't be fooled, snapcaster beats get there. I've won many a game as RWU delver (jeskai? Still sounds weird to me) by flashing back two removal spells and just killing them with two 2/1s. (This was back when jeskai ran geist and snapcaster, I haven't played the deck in a while and it's totally different now.)

"Which is pretty much what everyone is doing at this point" ... is this supposed to be an argument? Snapcaster is a 3cc card if you argue with the flashback and all that in a deck with only 16-18 lands atm. I don't see why this 3-mana-durdling is better than going staight up aggro if you are already streamlining the list towards blitz-aggro with that much burn spells like proposed in some posts

[Griselpuff]

So... I'm still working on my article for CFB, hopefully it will be out next week.

Just wanted to clarify a few things.

1. Monastery Swiftspear shall be henceforth called Taylor Swiftspear
2. My name for the deck is Viking Funeral. You have a bunch of humans, they go on a boat ride, and then they light themselves on fire and throw themselves at your opponent.
3. Another alternative name for the deck could be Zoo. Not sure if that's trademarked or anything, but yes, if you look closely, I pretty much just played Zoo to its first Legacy Open win in a long time. Every creature is in there purely for damage output. Sure, my Zoo deck had Ancestral Recall and FoW, but we Legacy players don't give a damn about splitting hairs now do we? :laugh:

[Koby]

"Which is pretty much what everyone is doing at this point" ... is this supposed to be an argument? Snapcaster is a 3cc card if you argue with the flashback and all that in a deck with only 16-18 lands atm. I don't see why this 3-mana-durdling is better than going staight up aggro if you are already streamlining the list towards blitz-aggro with that much burn spells like proposed in some posts

I think there are two disparate builds emerging.

The older, UR Burn style that plays SCM to stretch the key spells (Bolts, Brainstorm, Ponder mainly).
Newer UR Tempo style that run Pyromancer and Daze, lesser reliance on Bolts (not 8).

Bob demonstrated the latter is quite effective with Treasure Cruise. We're making updates to the UR Burn list. Whichever creature suite is found to be best requires testing. I think that SCM is still acceptable, as having a guaranteed Regrow + spell is slightly better than "draw 3 random cards". I'm not sure if it's a matter of '11% better in these cases' but more of 'I really need this effect with my mana and spells, and chancing on hitting with a draw spell is not ideal'.

[kaminamina]

I think there are two disparate builds emerging.

The older, UR Burn style that plays SCM to stretch the key spells (Bolts, Brainstorm, Ponder mainly).
Newer UR Tempo style that run Pyromancer and Daze.

Bob demonstrated the latter is quite effective with Treasure Cruise. We're making updates to the UR Burn list. Whichever creature suite is found to be best requires testing. I think that SCM is still acceptable, as having a guaranteed Regrow + spell is slightly better than "draw 3 random cards". I'm not sure if it's a matter of '11% better in these cases' but more of 'I really need this effect with my mana and spells, and chancing on hitting with a draw spell is not ideal'.
I don't think snaps is better or worse than cruise, I think it's different. It would be like comparing dark ritual to lightning bolt, they do completely different things so why bother. Plus they're not competing for a slot; snapcaster is a threat and cruise is a draw spell. Doesn't matter how many cards you draw if you don't have any threats to draw.

Again, I think the sweet spot for threats is between 12 and 14 depending on your build.

[kaminamina]

"Which is pretty much what everyone is doing at this point" ... is this supposed to be an argument? Snapcaster is a 3cc card if you argue with the flashback and all that in a deck with only 16-18 lands atm. I don't see why this 3-mana-durdling is better than going staight up aggro if you are already streamlining the list towards blitz-aggro with that much burn spells like proposed in some posts
If I wanted balls out aggro I would cut all the countermagic and splash blue for delver and card draw. That's not the deck I want to play.

[ThiefSlayer]

I don't think snaps is better or worse than cruise, I think it's different. It would be like comparing dark ritual to lightning bolt, they do completely different things so why bother. Plus they're not competing for a slot; snapcaster is a threat and cruise is a draw spell. Doesn't matter how many cards you draw if you don't have any threats to draw.

Again, I think the sweet spot for threats is between 12 and 14 depending on your build.

Man, I really think they are competing for the slot. I mean, you may even try not to delve key spells for snapcaster, but it's hard to do if you dont want to hold back your spells from casting. You may have to wait 1-2 turns until you play TC without delving spells you want to flash back.

There may have a split of TC/SCM, but it really can't be 4/4 IMO. And as there were 4 or at least 3 SCM in most UR Burn lists, I think they are competing with the same slot. I agree that they are different in their accomplishments (but still both are UR's choise for card advantage), the question is: which direction they take the deck to, which of them is more effective in each meta, and if there will have to be any changes on the other 56 cards of the deck to fit them in the way each player want to.

[FANAttIC]

2. My name for the deck is Viking Funeral. You have a bunch of humans, they go on a boat ride, and then they light themselves on fire and throw themselves at your opponent.
Why not Firefly? Name of a great show fits as name of a great deck.
We have fire (obv) and there is fly (when it flips).

[L-Luck]

Same random thoughts I had when playing the deck (Bobs MD):

- Cantripping into more cantrips is really, really good in this deck. Between Swiftspears, Pyromancer and a full set of Cruises the payoff for Pondering into Ponder is very high.
- Forked Bolt instead of more Chain Lightning seems really weird
- Countering Counterbalance is priority #1
- Treasure Cruise allows you to outgrind basically any fair deck besides miracles, so you sometimes have to switch playstyle
- Tarmogoyf without Golgari Charm is rarely a problem, the combination should be annoying though. You really can't afford to be behind against Goyf decks, luckily the best of those has abrupt decay, which is really slow
- I often felt like a 11th Fetchland would benefit my hands to get another shuffle/volcanic. The deck is basically wasteland proof the on the play because your opponent can't afford the tempo disadvantage
- Your sideboard artifact removal needs to be instant (Batterskull) and able to kill Chalice
- Sideboard Needle/Meddling Mages are much better in this deck than others bc of the set of Probes
- Submerge seems bonkers
- You sometimes get value out of dazing your own spells to create a token/pump swiftspear

[kaminamina]

So... I'm still working on my article for CFB, hopefully it will be out next week.
2. My name for the deck is Viking Funeral. You have a bunch of humans, they go on a boat ride, and then they light themselves on fire and throw themselves at your opponent.



Why not Firefly? Name of a great show fits as name of a great deck.
We have fire (obv) and there is fly (when it flips).

Why don't we call it fucking UR delver like it is

[AgrusKos,EnforcerofTruth]

Also, "damn snapcasters?" That card is so good, it's like a two mana blowjob.
Can this be my senior quote?

[Lemnear]

Man, I really think they are competing for the slot. I mean, you may even try not to delve key spells for snapcaster, but it's hard to do if you dont want to hold back your spells from casting. You may have to wait 1-2 turns until you play TC without delving spells you want to flash back.

There may have a split of TC/SCM, but it really can't be 4/4 IMO. And as there were 4 or at least 3 SCM in most UR Burn lists, I think they are competing with the same slot. I agree that they are different in their accomplishments (but still both are UR's choise for card advantage), the question is: which direction they take the deck to, which of them is more effective in each meta, and if there will have to be any changes on the other 56 cards of the deck to fit them in the way each player want to.

I don't think that the whole eot-snapcaster-flashback-bolt-hope-opponent-doesn't-run-daze-or-drs runs well alongside Swiftspear and I don't buy the tool-box argument if Snapcaster is flashing back Lightning Bolts in 70%+ of cases. Unless you are playing against SFM, you'd likely benefit more from running something like Guide, PoP, etc. than SCM imo.

[Bobmans]

Yesterday my set of KTK got delivered along with them SwiftCruise cards so i slammed the deck together and play it at my friends magic night. Sideboard was a bunch of crap, but i was on time pressure so i thought it up to fast.
List:


4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Mountain
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard

2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Divert


I must say that this deck is fast and has a lot of cool small interactions to play.
Rounds is played:
WizardsControl: 2-0
Reanimate: 1-2
Dredge: 2-0
DnT: 2-1

Just some thoughts:
-i really liked the mana base. 16 is on the low side and can be tricky, but knowing what lands to get first is really important. It never got mana screwed out of the game and being Wasteland proof is solid. The deck fully functions on 1 Island and 1 Mountain.
-8 Bolt effects was really good. Having to use a bolt on creatures always hurt me, but with all the draw effect i could just draw into more to burn the face.
-at some point against Dredge i really wished that Chain was a Forked Bolt, but other then that 3 damage feels better.
-The creatures are solid and sooo synergetic. It was awesome. Swiftspear was 2/3 nearly every turn and i was able to add a token also every turn. That alone was getting to much for my opponent to take.
-Midgame chaining cantrips into bolts was awesome.
-1 game against DnT i was able to cast a total of 3 Treasure Cruises in that game of of 1 blue mana.
-1 game i got 2 cruises doing nothing, but got 2 flipped delvers against DnT and on themselves won that game, and those delver wher the only thing casted to, lol.
-Reanimate was really hard, i am not sure what to do against it. The best thing was opening with a delver, brainstorm flip it next turn and disrupt everything else. And opponents EoT bolting to speed up the clock. Chains are really crap here.
-Mainboard felt really solid. i aint gonna change it.
-sideboard: Divert gets the axe, but not sure for what pyrokinesis?. The rest was really solid tho. Smash to Smithereens on your Batterskull is nice.

[lyracian]

2. My name for the deck is Viking Funeral. You have a bunch of humans, they go on a boat ride, and then they light themselves on fire and throw themselves at your opponent.
I like Viking Funeral. Congratulations on the win as well.

[now]

So, now that Treasure Cruise has gotten the thumbs up, at least in the less-of-a-burn-deck version, how about Dig Through Time? Is Treasure Cruise superior, as most of our cards do the same thing and we’re only looking for raw card advantage, not card selection? How relevant is the :u: versus :u::u:?

[kaminamina]

So, now that Treasure Cruise has gotten the thumbs up, at least in the less-of-a-burn-deck version, how about Dig Through Time? Is Treasure Cruise superior, as most of our cards do the same thing and we’re only looking for raw card advantage, not card selection? How relevant is the :u: versus :u::u:?
Extremely, it turns out. I tested it and, while not inconsistent, it's less consistent than cruise. Plus like half our cards do the same thing so we don't have specific answers we're digging for

[dte]

And if not instead, isn't DTT able to be TC 5-6?

[kaminamina]

And if not instead, isn't DTT able to be TC 5-6?
The utility of dtt kind of reminds me of snapcaster mage. The difference being, dtt can give you two creatures or two spells but snaps always gives you a 2/1 and a spell. But I think more than 4 delve cards is pushing it so I'll stick with snaps

[ThiefSlayer]

- Forked Bolt instead of more Chain Lightning seems really weird


This may sound weird sometimes, but in Bob's list chain and forked bolt usually have the utility of a removal spell, since the deck's main strenght is win by attacking (otherwise it should have PoP). That being said, I dont see any relevant creature with resistence of 3 playing in legacy nowadays, it's usually more than 3 or less than 3. Forked bolt has the possibility of killing 2 /1 creatures, killing a /1 creature and dealing 1 damage to opponent or killing a /2 creature.

I didn't try this deck yet, but I think the possibility of 1 extra damage from chain lightning to the player isn't exactly the deck's goal, and I think forked bolt seems better as a removal spell as it may be card advantage for R against elves, delver, DnT, goblin, among maybe others that I don't remember.

That being said, I'll try a 3-0 split between chain lightning and forked bolt. Not sure if that's a good deal, only suggesting you to think about the possibility of playing only forked bolt instead of forked-chain split

[Griselpuff]

All the points about forked bolt are correct. Furthermore, chain can be awkward against red decks.

[Neffy]

All the points about forked bolt are correct. Furthermore, chain can be awkward against red decks.

Also, in the mirror Forked Bolt proved to me to be very very good.
Taking out YP+token or YP+delver, etc.

Do you guys think Gut Shot could be worth running now?
I had an opponent who ran 2 in the board. Really nice with MS and even TC. And of course YP.
Have not tried it myself but it might be very advantageous to run 1-2?

[wwoning]

Bob, thank you for being awesome and winning with this brilliantly found deck! My compliments, it was fantastic watching you play the deck. Is your article still coming through? If so, please link us to it!

[Kronicler]

It went up on channelfireball yesterday:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cruising-to-victory-in-new-jersey/

[wwoning]

Cheers!

[Michael Keller]

Top 8ed Jupiter Games' NELC with U/R Cruise Control.

[Heresy]

Top 8ed Jupiter Games' NELC with U/R Cruise Control.

Grats! What was your list like?

[Warden]

Grats! What was your list like?

I'm not spilling the beans here. Hollywood has a very interesting list. An interesting rationale with certain slots (backed up by doing well today). The biggest take away for me was seeing how ridiculous Treasure Cruise is. It's bananas. Dig Through Time is equally impressive but Cruise finds itself being Ancestral when it piggybacks bstorm/ponder/probe. I think I found a key weakness for this UR deck, but again, I'll let the man post his list and share for the community. I made T4 with a different deck but all the UR-cruise variations were interesting to watch. And by interesting I mean "fueling my hatred of island".

[Michael Keller]

Here was the list I ran:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Phantasmal Bear
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Treasure Cruise
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
3x Force of Will
2x Forked Bolt
1x Red Elemental Blast

4x Scalding Tarn
3x Wasteland
3x Island
2x Mountain
2x Volcanic Island
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

//SB
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
2x Blood Moon
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Hydroblast
1x Force of Will
1x Surgical Extraction

The deck played very smoothly, although this list was really just a trial that was used to see how taking a different approach to building U/R would work. Wound up playing against Manaless, OmniTell and Grixis Pyromancer [3-0] and drew the last two rounds in first overall where we all split.

Here are some thoughts on this list:

1. I really liked the main-deck Red Blast in place of the fourth Force. With Cruise and U/R everywhere, I just expected the strength of this card to shine - which it did. I'll stick with it main, although going with Pyroblast is likely better to be able to make surprise tokens off of Pyromancer or being able to tick up Monastery.

2. Phantasmal Bear was used in place of Guide and Monastery as an aggressive creature that requires no spell investment before attacking or timing my spells like I would have to around Monastery to pump it. It was decent and won me several rounds, actually. I liked that it pitches to Force and once it's targeted, it goes to the graveyard. Generally speaking, any removal targeting it would kill it anyhow. This helps fuel earlier Cruises, and was relevant in two scenarios.

Again, only a test, and I think I'll go with Swiftspear next go-around.

3. Wasteland was decent as a tempo spell and really worked well. Although, I'm not sure this is the right deck for it. I was never disappointed to see it, and it did win me a couple games where Delver and Daze just shut the game down after nuking their lands. I'll probably cut it or run only a pair. I just think the card is too good to pass up without running any, although four is too much.

4. I only had two Volcs on me at the time, although I've been testing two for a while in most of my U/R builds. I play more fetches and a few more basics, which I've really liked. Two Volcs are enough to setup your first two turns just fine, and a third by turn three is generally not even a matter of concern as a basic usually is just fine. I'll probably run three.

5. Hydroblasts and Pyroblasts all the way. They make surprise tokens as I mentioned, can fuel Treasure Cruise or pump Monastery in corner-case scenarios.

6. Forked Bolt was insane. I may even try to find room for a third if I can. It's just so good in the mirror and creates card advantage in so many scenarios. Just so damn good.
Just some thoughts. Treasure Cruise was easily by far and away the best card in the deck. It straght-up won games on its own.

[cheerios]

I played a modified version of Bob's list (Viking Funeral) to a top 4 finish in a 5 rounder yesterday.

The changes I made were the ff:
MD: -1 Chain Lighthning, +1Forked Bolt (3rd)

SB:-2 Blood Moon, +2POP
-1 Null Rod, +1 Smash to Smitherens (2nd Copy)

Matches:
RD 1 2-0 vs painter
RD 2 2-0 vs elves
RD 3 2-1 vs jund (POP'ed him for 10 or 8 damage on game 3)
RD 4 ID
RD 5 ID
Quarters 2-0 vs omnitell (was able to race an emrakul on game 1)
Semis 0-2 vs chalice merfok (mull to 5 vs a very fast hand in game 1, got chalice for 1'ed on game 2)

Overall, the deck is very strong vs fair decks, but feels vulnerable vs Sneak and Show, and Reanimator.

Cheers

[cris_rj]

Iam playing the following list of u/r delver:


Creature:
4-delver of secrets
2 grim lavamancer
2- snapcaster mage
4- young pyromancer

Spells:
4 chain lightening
4 lightning bolt
4 daze
4 fow
4 glitaxian probe
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
2- price of progress
2- spell pierce

lands:
4 scaldin tarn
4 misty rainforest
2 island
1 moutain
3 volcanic island
1 delta
1 arid mesa


Sideboard:

1 price of progress
2- surgical extraction
2- pyroblast
2- spell pierce
2- sulfuric vortex
4- searing blood
2- smash to smithereens

I playerd yesterday in my local game store and went 3-0-2

I won:
elves 2-1 (searing blood did wonderful things)
mud 2-1
Miracles 2-0

I lost for:
All spells 0-2
Burn 0-2


I love playing searing blood ! I switch the 4 gg in main deck form yp and I love it !!
Iam having problems fighting against Burn. What sideboard and strategy can I use ? o really have no idea !! I need to rush for burning my opponent before he burns me ?

I didnt use treasure cruise and Ms in main deck. But I will try using it this weak ! Any suggestions for changing main deck and sideboarding ?

Thx !

[Neffy]

Overall, the deck is very strong vs fair decks, but feels vulnerable vs Sneak and Show, and Reanimator.


Regarding reanimator, that actually surprises me. We can opt for grafdiggers and needles for Griselbrand. We have counters and a fast clock. Even Sulfuric Vortex is pretty useful too.
Sneak and show also seems good to me (I havent played it (only omni tell)), so this is purely thought, but having needles, (moons?), vortex, pyroblast, hydroblast, fast clock, counters and ways to race emrakul triggers sounds reasonable to me?

How come you feel we're vulnerable to these decks? Or is it just based on your own decklist, SB and bad luck? I would like to know your thoughts (and others').

[cheerios]

To be honest, I just built the deck two days ago. So it might be attributed to lack of familiarity and experience with the deck.

I have to agree with you that post board we have very good answers to the Griselbrand decks; however, pre-board we only have 8 counterspells, 4 of which are weak against reanimator (Daze).


I also find myself cutting some treasure cruises post board against the faster decks, not sure if this is a good idea.

Can you share how sideboard against fast combo?

Cheers

[Neffy]

True. pre-board can rely heavily on you drawing counterspells at the right time. Last time I used 2 extra spell pierces just to see how it worked, and eventho there was dissynergy with MS, it worked fine.

For those combo decks I took out 2x forked bolt and some other burn i think. I want to keep it it, but i want the cards in the board more. this included 2 flusterstorm, 3 pyroblast and needles I think.
In those match ups you need the counterspells and your creatures are not going out, so there was only cantrips left. I might have cut 1-2 probes too. :)

[dog_koko]

I have been testing U/R this weekend (the NJ deck) and I was not able to win Monored Burn.
This deck is faster than mine and I hate Eidolon :(

Of course I sided out the Probes

[cris_rj]

Agains burn I'm trying This : - 2 pop, -2 probe, + 2 surgical extraction, + spell pierce... Any suggestions for side boarding against burn ? And plz people, give a chance to searing blood !!! It's perfect against dnt, elves and any creature deck !!!

[Neffy]

@Cris: I might. However I dont like the mana cost where I could go MS+forked or bolt :/

But no-one have tried gut shot with YP + MS?
Im testing without it tomorrow. I have a larger tourny this sunday so I need to get ready fo dat.

[FANAttIC]

Speaking of Gutshot, is there a chance for Lava Dart (double instant spell for MS and Pyro)?

[Neffy]

Speaking of Gutshot, is there a chance for Lava Dart (double instant spell for MS and Pyro)?

It just seems as a a finisher only. We run so few lands that saccing them can be fatal for the game plan. And you dont want to draw it early. Also you will use two cards (Dart + land) to get rid of one or perhaps two creatures. Forked bolt just seems way better here, albeit sorcery.
Gut-shot is also a sudden finisher, but can come from 0 mana and mostly will be 1 for 1.

But who am I to judge. I have not tried it :)

[Sunday Funday]

Played Bob Huang's 60 (-1 cruise + 1 fetch) this past weekend GPT New Jersey and lost in the finals. Thoughts:

I mulled only once whole tournament and never had mana issues so I'm sticking with 18 lands.
Swiftspear is definitely more comparable to goyf than goblin guide as I had him 3/4 and above on average.
3 cruises felt fine. The card is bananas. Normally in a game, I cast one 1-2 cruise and pitch the third to FoW. Although there was a rare occasion where I cast 3 cruises but I was aggressively digging the whole game to find threats as they kept dying.
Definitely a very fun deck to pilot as your creatures get bigger and generate tokens just for playing spells.

Despite my high place finish, the power level of the deck seems low. It feels like a slower burn deck and a weaker RUG deck since your creatures don't stick around for long unlike mongoose. It might be a surprise factor that propelled this deck to a high place finish. Moving forward, I feel like the meta will adapt to a heavy board sweep control environment (-1/-1 and the like) that's gonna be way too unfriendly for UR mages.

[Michael Keller]

If you look a few pages back, you'll note I was using Gut Shot in coordination with SCM. While it was really great and worked wonders with Pyromancer, I still think it may be a little too narrow here. Forked Bolt is one of, if not the best, cards in this entire deck. Being able to knock out two creatures at the cost of one mana is insane. Especially against decks like Elves, D/T, the mirror, etc.

I think we also need to assess the reality that this deck, while getting a tremendous boost with Cruise, has also become public enemy number one. This means having a strong mirror plan and being able to prepare for unfavorable match-ups. Obviously this isn't something new, but we're talking about a card that is so incredibly swingy in Treasure Cruise. This is why I'm deciding to run a single Pyroblast main. Not only does it give the deck reach in being able to counter other problematic cards like Show and Tell and True-Name Nemesis, it aids incredibly in the mirror by giving you the ability to counter Cruises game one and the ability to create surprise tokens from Pyromancer to (possibly) kill an opposing attacker in a pinch. I may even up the count; CruiseMania and blue decks are running wild, brother.

I shifted the fourth Force into the board to make room for this change before. My version is in flux a little bit to combat the mirror and sidestep potential hate in the form of -1/-1 effects. I also think it's perfectly fine to run a pair of Wastelands, which can be key. This deck is not all-in tempo like other builds, but it still maintains some tempo elements. It's funny because the deck isn't counter-crazy or tempo crazy; it's a solid mix of the two. I think Wasteland is a wildcard that can win games on its own on the heels of a sequence involving: Delver->Daze->Wasteland.

[cab0747]

Has anyone played a list focused more on burn? I have been trying the list below and have been liking it so far:


4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Monastery Swiftspear

2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Flusterstorm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfur Elemental

[beez]

I like it. I've been thinking of leaving a couple snappys in there too. Sulfer Elemental was a nice touch.

[Jon]

I went undefeated tonight with a U/R Burn list similar to yours except I played no SP and added a Price and a Forked Bolt. Too tired to write anything else.