Vision Charm and land types

[GGoober]

Essentially, I'm aware that Vision Charm is able to turn a land type e.g. Island into another basic land type e.g. Mountain.

However, do non-basic land-type count as land-types? i.e. can I choose non-basic as a land-type and turn all non-basic lands into Mountains?

[Koby]

The only valid choices for land types are:

basics
Lair
Locus
Urza
Desert
Mine
tower
power-plant

Also see

Lands have their own unique set of subtypes; these subtypes are called land types. The land types are Desert, Forest, Island, Lair, Locus, Mine, Mountain, Plains, Power-Plant, Swamp, Tower, and Urza's. Of that list, Forest, Island, Mountain, Plains, and Swamp are the basic land types. See rule 305.6.

This will turn off the appropriate dual lands for the turn too.

[GGoober]

Thanks this is interesting. It seems that they really have not worked on developing the area of land-types with the exception of Loci.

I guess there's no way I can turn off Maze of Ith then :P But the situation I ran into was playing against 12-post and I was wondering if I could name 'non-basic' as a land-type to shut off cloudpost, but apparently you can name Locus and it would work.

[cdr]

"Non-basic" is the lack of the Basic supertype; it is not a type.

[death]

The only valid choices for land types are:

basics
Lair
Locus
Urza
Desert
Mine
tower
power-plant

I'm adding this to the Stiflenought thread. From experience, I've timewalked a handful of burn players already. I have yet to face a 12-post player.

[Offler]

Just curious. Is there any card which can change land's subtype to one of the nonbasic ones?

Usually when I am forced to turn it into basic type it means that the land has lost all its abilities and becomes only a manasource of the chosen color, but turning it into colorless mana source has greater potential...

[Malchar]

Just curious. Is there any card which can change land's subtype to one of the nonbasic ones?

Usually when I am forced to turn it into basic type it means that the land has lost all its abilities and becomes only a manasource of the chosen color, but turning it into colorless mana source has greater potential...

If a land is turned into a basic land, it automatically loses all other abilities and can only make mana of the appropriate color. However, if you somehow give a land a nonbasic land type, it doesn't lose its other abilities, or gain any new abilities. If you apply the same logic to creature types, it might make more sense. If you somehow make something into a llanowar elves then it will lose its old abilities and gain the elf ability. However, if you just give something the creature type "elf", it doesn't gain or lose any abilities.

So back to the case with land, the only way this would work is if you could make a land into a specific nonbasic land. For example, if you turned a mountain into a mishra's factory, it would lose the ability to create red mana, but you could make colorless mana or animate the factory just like normal.

I don't think any cards like this exist anyway.

[Julian23]

I don't think any cards like this exist anyway.

Living Plane + Cytoshape might work. Not sure though.

[Offler]

Hm. This is bit interesting.

Seems to me as a bit of legacy rule because previously "wall" creature type carried "defender" with it. With "Island" subtype its similar.

For example Urza's Factory has Urza's Subtype but it does not carry any specification and its ruling on gatherer warns that it does not interact with the rest of urza's lands.

From creature point of view:

Balduvian Frostwaker.

He turns snow land directly to Blue Elemental while "its still land". However BlueElemental subtype does not carry any specifics as for example Island subtype carries or Wall subtype carried in the past.

however Desert is a great example... When comparing to Island both have land subtype which is exactly same as the name of the card. But its hard to find whether "Desert" land subtype carries any specifications.

Will check the rules for this...

At all copying of the whole land, no matter how is bit clear. You will get exact copy with all abilities printed on the card. So the question is if it is specified what land types carry any specifications.

To change land subtype... I believe its always specified that I can set only Basic land subtype.

[cdr]

At all copying of the whole land, no matter how is bit clear. You will get exact copy with all abilities printed on the card. So the question is if it is specified what land types carry any specifications.

Read rule 305, Lands (http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R305). It's very short and clear. Only the basic subtypes carry any special rules.

[Offler]

I see. If a land is an Island it can be tapped for blue mana even when its ability is not printed on the card.

When land subtype is changed to island (completely, not only "in addition") all its abilities are erased and it has only this mana ability.

Have also re-checked it. Each card which can set land subtype always sets it to basic subtype and no other.

Also want to ask similar question on "text changing" cards, like Swirl the mists. Changing color words do not affect mana symbols (even when it reads "color word" mana).

True or false?

[Koby]

Also want to ask similar question on "text changing" cards, like Swirl the mists. Changing color words do not affect mana symbols (even when it reads "color word" mana).

True or false?

Correct. :u: and Island, and "blue" are not the same when it comes to cards such as Magical Hack. Blue mana will always be strictly referred to as :u: rather than verbally.

[Iron Buddha]

So I can change all Islands into Deserts (or what else?) and they won't produce blue mana anymore, only colorless?

[Koby]

So I can change all Islands into Deserts (or what else?) and they won't produce blue mana anymore, only colorless?

No, this is not how Vision Charm works. You choose a land type (valid choices shown in the 2nd post) and a basic land type; each land of the former would become the latter. Desert is not a basic land type.

If there was a way to change Islands to Deserts, then the Island-now-Desert would lose its "T: Add :u:" ability, but not necessarily gain "T: Add :1:".

[Iron Buddha]

Thanks for the quick answer.

I have another question: Does Vision Charm also affect lands in the library? so that they cannot be fetched anymore by Fetchlands?

[Koby]

Thanks for the quick answer.

I have another question: Does Vision Charm also affect lands in the library? so that they cannot be fetched anymore by Fetchlands?

It would only affect permanents on the battlefield. Otherwise, it would have to refer to "land cards" and specify a zone.

[sdematt]

It would only affect permanents on the battlefield. Otherwise, it would have to refer to "land cards" and specify a zone.

So could Vision Charm be a super accelerant for turbo Eldrazi, turning everything into Loci?

-Matt

[Koby]

So could Vision Charm be a super accelerant for turbo Eldrazi, turning everything into Loci?

-Matt

Reading Vision Charm:
Vision Charm
Instant, U
Choose one — Target player puts the top four cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard; or choose a land type and a basic land type, and each land of the first chosen type becomes the second chosen type until end of turn; or target artifact phases out. (While it's phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist. It phases in before its controller untaps during his or her next untap step.)

Nope. No can do.

[Dark Lord]

In regards to the land type changing portion of this card, when do you choose the lands? Is it selecting a target upon casting, or similar to cabal therapy and naming a card on resolution?

[cdr]

In regards to the land type changing portion of this card, when do you choose the lands? Is it selecting a target upon casting, or similar to cabal therapy and naming a card on resolution?

You can look at http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R6012 for the things that are chosen on announcement - modes, targets, division of effects, total cost, payment. The only things that Vision Charm has that need to be chosen on announcement are the mode and (if appropriate for the mode chosen) targets.

[notap123]

I am just trying to wrap my head around the rules when using vision charm against dual lands. Will the dual land still keep the ability to produce the unnamed land type?

As in, my opponent has Tropical Islands, I name forest to be changed to swamps. Would they still have the ability to tap their Tropical Island for Blue mana?

Thanks in advance!

[cdr]

I am just trying to wrap my head around the rules when using vision charm against dual lands. Will the dual land still keep the ability to produce the unnamed land type?

As in, my opponent has Tropical Islands, I name forest to be changed to swamps. Would they still have the ability to tap their Tropical Island for Blue mana?

Thanks in advance!

Vision Charm does not replace one basic type with another, as a few other effects do, but rather changes things of one type to another type. When you change a land into a basic land type, it loses all other abilities and gains the mana producing ability of that type. Tropical Island can only tap for black mana.

[notap123]

Vision Charm does not replace one basic type with another, as a few other effects do, but rather changes things of one type to another type. When you change a land into a basic land type, it loses all other abilities and gains the mana producing ability of that type. Tropical Island can only tap for black mana.

So if I choose basic lands and then call forest that means all basics (including mine) turn to forests?

[Koby]

So if I choose basic lands and then call forest that means all basics (including mine) turn to forests?

Basic is a supertype. (as in Basic Land - Island). It is not a valid selection for Vision Charm. You can select one of the basic land types (Island, Swamp, Mountain, Forest, Plains) for the second part of the Vision Charm land-shifting ability. You choices for the first part are:

Island
Swamp
Mountain
Forest
Plains
Urza's
Power-plant
Tower
Mine
Locus
Lair
Desert

[notap123]

Basic is a supertype. (as in Basic Land - Island). It is not a valid selection for Vision Charm. You can select one of the basic land types (Island, Swamp, Mountain, Forest, Plains) for the second part of the Vision Charm land-shifting ability. You choices for the first part are:

Island
Swamp
Mountain
Forest
Plains
Urza's
Power-plant
Tower
Mine
Locus
Lair
Desert

That's how I thought it worked, did cdr's explanation of vision charm's interaction with dual lands work? Either way thanks for the help!

[cdr]

That's how I thought it worked, did cdr's explanation of vision charm's interaction with dual lands work? Either way thanks for the help!

Let's try a fuller explanation. If you name "Forest" and "Swamp" with Vision Charm, it changes all lands with the subtype Forest to "Land -- Swamp". Tropical Island is a Forest, so it becomes a Swamp, with no other text besides "T: add B".

[notap123]

Let's try a fuller explanation. If you name "Forest" and "Swamp" with Vision Charm, it changes all lands with the subtype Forest to "Land -- Swamp". Tropical Island is a Forest, so it becomes a Swamp, with no other text besides "T: add B".

I appreciate the follow up guys. I just want to make sure I have my ducks in a row if I try Vision Charm out in a tournament.

[Ralf]

So just to be sure I understood well the previous point on the tropical island becoming a swamp. Will this counter sort of wasteland ability as well ?
Wasteland target -> tropical, you respond by vision charm for forest into swamp -> wasteland ability fizzle because there is no longer a legal target ?

[Koby]

So just to be sure I understood well the previous point on the tropical island becoming a swamp. Will this counter sort of wasteland ability as well ?
Wasteland target -> tropical, you respond by vision charm for forest into swamp -> wasteland ability fizzle because there is no longer a legal target ?

Vision Charm will change the following:

Lands' sub-type (allowable types listed in previous posts)

Vision Charm will not change the following:

Lands' super-type (Basic, Snow, Legendary)

[zeagle]

Basic is a supertype. (as in Basic Land - Island). It is not a valid selection for Vision Charm. You can select one of the basic land types (Island, Swamp, Mountain, Forest, Plains) for the second part of the Vision Charm land-shifting ability. You choices for the first part are:

Island
Swamp
Mountain
Forest
Plains
Urza's
Power-plant
Tower
Mine
Locus
Lair
Desert

Gate

[Nuclearspatula]

I am sorry to resurrect this thread, but I'm trying to figure out card interaction between Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Urborg reads "Each land is a Swamp in addition to its other land types."

Vision Charm reads "Choose a land type and a basic land type. Each land of the first chosen type becomes the second chosen type until end of turn."


What happens if I target swamps and turn them into islands?