[The Greatest Deck of All Time] Turbofog

[TheMightyQuinn]

Someone had to do it.

For those of you that haven't read it, here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22679-5-0-with-turbofog) is Claymore-One's tournament report detailing his 5-0 victory with Turbofog. (Yes, we might be getting trolled. Who cares? It's entertaining as all get-out. So please, no troll speculation in this thread)

I don't have delusions of grandeur. I know this isn't going to be in the DtB forum. Ever.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't develop the deck though! Maybe your local metagame is dominated by aggro and you want give people fits. Maybe you are looking to get into Legacy but don't want to break the bank. Maybe you love piloting off-kilter decks. Let's make Turbofog as good as possible for people like that and, if nothing else, pure amusement.

Here is our starting point, courtesy of Claymore-One:



10 Snow-covered Plains
9 Snow-covered Forest
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Terramorphic Expanse

4 Leyline of Sanctity

4 Font of Mythos
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Howling Mine

4 Orim's Chant
4 Peace Talks
4 Angel's Grace
4 Moment's Peace
4 Constant Mist

//Sideboard
3 Peace of Mind
4 Silence
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Luminarch Ascension
1 Sunstone



Obviously, Windswept Heath would be an immediate improvement over Terramorphic. Here are some other substitutions I've though about, but haven't tried yet:

Hoofprints of the Stag over Luminarch Ascension?
Words of Worship over Peace of Mind?
Island Sanctuary over ???

I'm not really sure how the single Riftstone Portal is supposed to function. Perhaps some number of Karakas in the SB would be useful to deal with Jin, Iona, and friends.

Anyway, that's Turbofog, in all its glory. Hopefully, Claymore-One can drop in here and give us some insight before his deployment. Have at it.

[Zirath]

Hoofprints of the Stag over Luminarch Ascension?
Words of Worship over Peace of Mind?
Island Sanctuary over ???

Luminarch Ascension has infinite activations after it goes on. Hoofprints does not.

Words of Worship actually makes you miss a draw, which is very different than what Peace of Mind does.

I'm actually surprised he doesn't support a Loam engine. Seems like a deck that can do well with it. Especially because it can give you a win condition in the worst case.

[kiblast]

How about Ancient Tomb to accelerate into Howling Mines and bypass Daze?

[ScatmanX]

Perhaps some number of Karakas in the SB would be useful to deal with Jin...
Why would he want to "deal" with Jin if his objective is to "mill" the guy out. Some Sunstone's activation, Peace Talks and Moment's Peace and you're good to go.

[TheMightyQuinn]

Eh, you're right. It would still be useful outside of Jin though.

[Mr Miagi]

This deck is very intriguing and it certinly has some space left for some tweaks. This deck really shouldn't go bellow 24 land. As said Windswept heath is definetly an improvment.

Regarding the Karakas, if the price and availability is not an issue I would play at least 2 maindeck and third or even fourth in the sb. After all they are recylable by Constant Mist.. and this deck's soft spot is reanimator (Legends) and combo.

Since the draw engine costs 2-3-4 mana I'd certinly add some form of acceleration. Perhaps some of these could be useful: Elvish Spirit guide (can ramp into turn one howling mine) or Sakura tribe elder. Both can chump block and act as fog effect to some degree. Perhaps one could consider Chrome mox or even City of traitors (but its drawback is quite huge in the initial turns.. were we want it). Hmm if we up the lands a bit more, like to 25, 26 perhaps even Exploration is worth the spot. We want the draw engine badly in the 2-3 turn and only after that we want to chain the fog effects ftw.

As for the super secrete tech for game two, after the opponent boards out all the creature removal we should have 3 Peace keeprs :laugh:

[Mr Miagi]

Why would he want to "deal" with Jin if his objective is to "mill" the guy out. Some Sunstone's activation, Peace Talks and Moment's Peace and you're good to go.

And when there is no Sun stone (in current list it's only one off) and you discard your hand, the oponents reanimates a second creature and you draw two lands or the oponent simply counters your fogs (if he's aggressive it's not that hard).. well I guess then you just roll over and die? That is a bad plan.. we want the karaks main and in the sb.. if activation is requiered we can do it, if not we can sac it Constant Mist, or heck let's not forget it taps for W and since we only have 2-3 wasteable lands in deck and we play plenty of basic lands I wouldn't feear being waste-screwed.

[4eak]

I've had a blast with the deck. I've run into this deck at least 4 times on MWS and Cockatrice. It is stupid as shit (which, for those who are measuring, is very stupid).

// Lands - 22
5 Plains
5 Forest
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Ancient Tomb

// Snowball - 16
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Howling Mine
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Font of Mythos

// Angry Sex - 22
4 Orim's Chant
4 Angel's Grace
4 Constant Mists
4 Moment's Peace
4 Peace Talks
2 Leyline of Sanctity

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Peace of Mind
SB: 4 Silence
SB: 3 Luminarch Ascension
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing

Tried E-tutor, meh. Chrome Mox sucked as well. Tomb is nice.

The draw engine is everything. Not opening a hand with one is bullshit. You want to stack them and win fast. Having 16 allows you accept counters and board control gracefully.

The draw engine is cool in that it kills your opponent before it kills you, which is obviously the hilarious way to turn the drawback of these cards (that your opponent draws first) into a benefit (namely, a win con).

EDIT: Forget Solitary Confinement

Angel's Grace is odd. I'm not sure about the card. It is amazing in plenty of cases, but it also has cases where I just wish it fogged.



peace,
4eak

[jlagrav]

Solitary Confinement has been decent, a single Howling Mine can just win the game for you against players which can't answer it.



Wouldn't you still not draw anything since Howling Mine says draw an extra card during your draw step and Solitary says to skip your draw step?

[4eak]

Oops, read it as upkeep. Fail.


peace,
4eak

[Nonex]

It greatly reminds me of the Coldsnap - Time Spiral - Lorwyn standard. That's when I saw this deck's concept for the first time. The main differences with these lists are Martyr of Sands, Wrath of God, and most importantly, the lock between Chronomantic Escape and multiple Chronosavant activations.

[GtF]

I liked the maindeck leyline of sanctities in the first version, they seem pretty good in this format actually. Deals with burn and storm from turn 1 on.

[jlagrav]

Oops, read it as upkeep. Fail.


peace,
4eak

No worrys. Seems like the best use of Solitary would be with Anvil. That way you can build up a hand of 10+ cards and then drop Solitary and sit back an watch lol.

[Nameless Two]

How about Isochron Scepter?
I know it'll be artifact destruction target #1, but there's plenty of artifacts they'll want to destroy when playing against this deck.
Besides, if you have chant, it locks out stuff like Pridemage too...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Flagstones of Trokair
5 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Kor Haven
2 Mystifying Maze

4 Howling Mine
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Font of Mythos

4 Orim's Chant
4 Moment's Peace
4 Tangle
4 Constant Mists
3 Dueling Grounds

2 Gaea's Blessing

My suggestion. I like maze-lands with Dueling Grounds in particular, and Flagstones seems obvious with Constant Mists.

[QQQ]

Penance could be a decent SB card. Can prevent damage from some decks, and will always prevent you from decking.

[Hof]

No Brainstorm, how can this be good?
(just kidding)

And on a more serious note.. Sylvan Library?

[Jeff Kruchkow]

The Dueling Grounds + Maze plan seems pretty solid but it begs for a MD Loam to fight Knight of the Reliquary and friends. Also, Angel's Grace seems subpar with so many Lightning Bolts running around. Also, is Tangle better than Dawn Charm? I know Tangle can be a double fog but Charm has added utility against burn and such.

Also, and this last on could be bad, but what about Dawnstrider against Reanimator? They usually don't have removal outside of maybe bounce and if it lands we don't care if they get Jin

[Mr. Safety]

I will go completely off-kilter here and suggest a once casual deck that I tried to build using Fog effects and Scapeshift. Essentially I was looking to Scapeshift into 4+ Cloudposts/Glimmerposts and then rip off a big Dawnglow Infusion with Test of Endurance as the win. It was certainly a casual deck, but fun...I was even trying the janky Root Maze + Amulet of Vigor pairing to be able to use Selesnya Sanctuary and the post-lands untapped.

[ESG]

Angel's Grace is odd. I'm not sure about the card. It is amazing in plenty of cases, but it also has cases where I just wish it fogged.

It's possible he ran Angelsong but mistyped it as Angel's Grace in his report.

[jlagrav]

It seems like Crucible of Worlds would be perfect with Constant Mists in this deck.

[TheMightyQuinn]

I think Crucible is good, but ultimately it is unnecessary. With so many draw engines, you should be drawing enough lands to keep Mists running. Rites of Flourishing even allows you to sac to Mists and still make a land drop that sticks.

[That_RaginG_Homo]

Would Enlightened Tutor be worth considering? It tutors for every engine piece, plus you can throw in a single Crucible and Iso Scepter.

[bowvamp]

I realize that these cards aren't very budget friendly, but how about Moat or Island Sanctuary?
Here are the cards I consider to be the best mist effects for this deck:
// These two are nice because they're activated abilities and act as buffers
Kami of False Hope
Spore Frog
// 2x Fog is always nice, and it plays well with discard effects
Moment's Peace
// Free fog anyone?
Snag
// Nice because it taps the creatures.
Tangle
// By far the best silence effect available.
Orim's Chant
// The cannot target effect is pretty nice here.
Peace Talks
// although it is pretty cool, it prevents the deck from developing tempo.
Constant Mists


I think Dawn Strider is worse than Peacekeeper. Both of them get hit by removal though.

Here's an experimental list:

// Lands
4 Savannah
10 Snow-Covered Forest
9 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair

//Permanents that fog
4 Island Sanctuary
4 Leyline of Sanctity

// Permanents that draw
4 Font of Mythos
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Howling Mine

// Fog effects
4 Snag
4 Orim's Chant
4 Peace Talks
4 Constant Mists

[Antonius]

If you go down the Loam route, you open up using glacial chasm with Rites of Flourishing. This can get ridiculous.

Oh, and if you go all-in on Loam, you could potentially go mono-green and gain Glimmerpost + 12 locus for ridiculous shenanigans. Unfortunately, going mono-green would also make you go belly-up to combo.

[baghdadbob]

If you dedicate your entire s/b to beating the combo match then you can beat them mono green. It is a route few are willing to take. :wink:

[jlagrav]

I don't think Island Sanctuary would be that good with all the Delvers flying around. Also I like Moments Peace better then Snag because the 2x fog is better then paying it for free with all the lands this deck drops.

[emidln]

If you dedicate your entire s/b to beating the combo match then you can beat them mono green. It is a route few are willing to take. :wink:

I see this posited every few months. It's just not true. Siding 15 cards from a mono green deck and expecting to beat a combo player who has even heard of Hurkyl's Recall, Shattering Spree, Serenity, or Pulverize isn't possible.

[Malakai]

I think the most amazing thing about this thread is that every suggestion makes the deck worse.

The list itself is actually kind of frightening, although you are 0% vs. storm, probably zoo, and any deck with Academy Ruins (which is 0, right now, but there was a time...).

I almost want to have Serum Powder because you essentially have to mull to turn 2 Howling Mine.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think the most amazing thing about this thread is that every suggestion makes the deck worse.

The list itself is actually kind of frightening, although you are 0% vs. storm, probably zoo, and any deck with Academy Ruins (which is 0, right now, but there was a time...).

I almost want to have Serum Powder because you essentially have to mull to turn 2 Howling Mine.

I actually don't see how this deck is a dog to Zoo OR Storm unless they get the nuts and you don't. Leylines and Chants are pretty good against Storm (as his tourney report demonstrated), and god help them if they go Empty the Warrens. As for Zoo, it's only bad if they grudge/Pridemage all of your draw engines. Sure, Academy Ruins crushes you but nobody really plays that card anymore. You have more to worry about from random Show and Tell -> Emrakul or Reanimate -> Jin Gitaxius then you do about anything else nowadays I think.

[4eak]

Tendrils is probably still disadvantaged, although 8 chant effects, Peace Talks, and Leyline put you well above "0%".

Zoo is very opener dependent. Leylines on your side and no access to artifact/enchantment destruction on theirs is likely going to be a win for you. It can easily be reversed though.

CBtop can be a nightmare though. They drop the lock, and they have a very high efficiency rate for countering fog effects. Grip helps, but it can still be tough, especially if they lock you out from the beginning. T1 Top, T2 CB, and FoW to stop you from getting your first draw piece, and then they can easily blow you out.



peace,
4eak

[jlagrav]

I feel like the worst match up for this deck is easily Hive Mind, this deck has literally nothing to stop it. Luckly it doesn't get played that much anymore.

[Michael Keller]

Festival as a board slot?

EDIT: Damnit. Holy Day would just be better, wouldn't it.

[emidln]

I feel like the worst match up for this deck is easily Hive Mind, this deck has literally nothing to stop it. Luckly it doesn't get played that much anymore.

You can resp to SnT/Hive Mind chant them then kgrip on their end step.

[Michael Keller]

You can resp to SnT/Hive Mind chant them then kgrip on their end step.

Angel's Grace seems relevant, too.

[Lejay]

I think the most amazing thing about this thread is that every suggestion makes the deck worse.

I fully agree on this. Not on the rest of the post though.

[joemauer]

I think the most amazing thing about this thread is that every suggestion makes the deck worse.

The list itself is actually kind of frightening, although you are 0% vs. storm, probably zoo, and any deck with Academy Ruins (which is 0, right now, but there was a time...).

I almost want to have Serum Powder because you essentially have to mull to turn 2 Howling Mine.

Yeah most of the suggestions here have been lame. I think people just like to play bad cards, and this deck is an excuse to do that.

Storm is a bad matchup for this deck unless there is a turn zero leyline.

The only constructive criticism I have seen is regards to the lands. One may want to try that land that gives no maximum hand size from conflux? Somebody help me out with the name and how it works, but it is a natural fit for the deck and may cancel Jin? Don't know exact wording of the land. Tower of reliquary perhaps?

Also, this deck wins by milling. Don't try life the loam.

[TheMightyQuinn]

Reliquary Tower

So far, the best suggestions are adding Heath and Anvil of Bogardan. I still think Island Sanctuary would be a house in some matchups.

[Barook]

No love for Solitary Confinement?

It looks like a perfect fit for the deck - staling draws from your mine effects while being save. And in the worst case, it's a Fog effect for :2::w:.

[Lejay]

No love for Solitary Confinement?

It looks like a perfect fit for the deck - staling draws from your mine effects while being save. And in the worst case, it's a Fog effect for :2::w:.

"Skip your draw step."

[Hof]

The list itself is actually kind of frightening, although you are 0% vs. storm, probably zoo, and any deck with Academy Ruins (which is 0, right now, but there was a time...).
I fail to see how Academy Ruins can do anything against this deck.

[Fatal]

Probably worst MU for this deck is anything with jace + any enchantment hate..

[Nonex]

Solitary Confinement is actually one of the best finishers Legacy can provide to this deck. If you get to stick 4-5 draw effects, skipping them and letting your opponent mill him/herself while being immune to pretty much everything he/she could drop at you is exactly what you want. For reference, the first Standard list I know of:

4 Arctic Flats
4 Brushland
3 Mouth of Ronom --> metagame answer
12 Snow-Covered Plains

4 Martyr of Sands
1 Chronosavant

4 Howling Mine
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Dawn Charm
4 Pollen Lullaby
3 Chronomantic Escape
3 Story Circle
4 Wrath of God
3 Jester's Scepter --> basically mill, but better against control
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Beacon of Immortality

Since the list is basically mono-white, Martyr of Sands gives around 12-15 life most of the time, which is a house against all forms of aggro. A single Beacon also puts you out of their range forever. Chronomantic Escape can form an "infinite loop" by suspending them consecutively, but the late game tech is to discard Chronosavant due to maximum size and activate its ability like 6-7 times (or more), one in response to the other, while Chronomantic is active. The first activation reanimates Chronosavant, but the rest still skip turns thanks to the ability's wording. You skip 7 turns = you can't be attacked for 7 turns = you don't draw for 7 turns = your aggro opponent draws 7X dead cards against you.

Now, porting this list to Legacy would mean some new problems, mainly the fact that Force of Will, Daze and Spell Snare exist. At that time, the tempo deck of choice was Faeries, and while it wasn't the best matchup by any means, you were sure you could resolve a turn 2 Howling Mine on the play. Also, aggro at that time didn't have Qasali Pridemage in each and all of its incarnations, nowadays it's too fast for Story Circle as well, and graveyard hate is played enough for most people to board something to hamper Gaea's Blessing and Chronosavant. However, I find Martyr of Sands and Wrath of God to be extremely playable and I think they shouldn't be overlooked. Also, a mana base without fetchlands definitely has its benefits, and being the second color a splash as it is in most lists in the thread, I don't think they are that necessary.

[bowvamp]

Seriously, people are jumping in on such an uplifting success story/cool deck just to say "oh, it can't be improved" or "oh, everybody but me is stupid and their improvements don't work. I'm not stupid because I didn't make any mistakes."
Wow.

I'll admit 4x Leyline is probably worse than Angel's grace right now. Sure, you lose to burn. That's what the side board is for. Snag was also worse than Moment's Peace. Oh well.

A major problem that I faced was that although my opponent couldn't hurt me, lethal damage on the board meant that I had to have insane prediction skills. And the odds don't favor the player who's not trying to read the opponent for 10 turns to win against the opponent who's got 10 turns to bluff the player out. I think we need something like Smokestack.

Isochron Scepter makes us more susceptible to removal.

I think that Grindclock is better than Anvil of Bogardan. Actually, much better.

Here's the list I'm testing now:
// Lands
4 Savannah
10 Snow-Covered Forest
9 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair

//Permanents that fog
2 Island Sanctuary

// Permanents that draw
4 Font of Mythos
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Howling Mine
4 Grindclock

// Fog effects
4 Moment's Peace
4 Orim's Chant
2 Peace Talks
4 Constant Mists
4 Angel's Grace

[GGoober]

What happens if someone sensed you were playing turbofog and starts slowplaying turns in a way that isn't considered slow-playing given that plays become more difficult the more cards you draw?

[264505]

What happens if someone sensed you were playing turbofog and starts slowplaying turns in a way that isn't considered slow-playing given that plays become more difficult the more cards you draw?

You win a lot of matches 1-0-1?

[Technics]

I fail to see how Academy Ruins can do anything against this deck.

I'm with this guy. Been playing this on MWS the last 3 days, and unless you have 12 Ruins out, or a way to untap Ruins 12 times in a turn...

Also Angels Grace is amazing. The few times my opponit was going to deck after me, I just graced in my upkeep, and kept going till they decked first.

[joemauer]

@Bowvamp: Why do you want to take Leyline out of this deck? It helps versus tendrils, burn, and jace. Angel's Grace helps out with two of the three.

On a more serious note, has anyone considered Solitary Confinement yet?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Solitary Confinement doesn't interact well with the Mines. I mean it would be fine if you could count on never running into a Pridemage or Maelstrom Pulse or Repeal, and just dropped it when your hand's full and wait for them to deck, but that's not a great bet usually.

The list I've come to after more testing;

6 Snow-Covered Forest
5 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Wooded Bastion

4 Howling Mine
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Rites of Flourishing
3 Font of Mythos

3 Leyline of Sanctity

4 Orim's Chant
4 Peace Talks
4 Moment's Peace
4 Tangle
2 Sunstone

2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

SB:
4 Ivory Tower
3 Hoofprints of the Stag
3 Karmic Justice
3 Krosan Grip
2 Silence

You do need Leyline main, but a playset isn't necessary, you can just pay four mana for it mid-late game to make sure you don't get taken out by a clutch of burn or a Jace. Chant it through if you have to. Tangle is great and I'm borderline on cutting something for either Pollen Lullaby or Spore Cloud just to get more effects of this kind.

You really want the Chants and Peace Talks to have a chance against combo, including Show-and-Sneak, Sunstone is just like Constant Mists only you don't have to worry about it getting countered or discarded more than once. And Emrakul is just to shuffle your stuff back to avoid possibly decking and hey it's actually a kill condition when you get a billion mana out.

Tower's out of the board for aggro/burn, Grip for Counterbalance, Justice for Deed, Hoofprints for the clock, Silence for more anti-combo malarky.

I mean that being said this isn't a very good deck, although a fun one and, aside from the duals a cheap one (and you can always run something else). And I don't think it's going to be one. There's a lot of strategies that completely nuke you, and it's not like you crush many other decks effortlessly.

http://i.imgur.com/8o4kE.gif (http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c073.htm)

[Hof]

Including nonbasics may be a mistake, because opponents Wastelands become rather relevant when he draws all 4 and can play multiple lands per turn.

I have done a little testing on Cockatrice. The original deck is strong against the field. For example I was playing against a BWR good stuff deck with creatures, Lavamancer, Mystic w/Batterskull, Wasteland, StP, Thoughtseize, Hymn, etc. I had a very weak start, mulligan to 5 and no Leyline, and I thought I was done for. But this deck slowly and steadily recovered and took control of the game with a hardcasted Leyline, a Howling Mine, and a Constant Mists. That's all it takes against the creature decks, really.

I still think Sylvan Library is worth considering, because it can be used as an early tutor and once in play it stacks very nicely with the other draw effects. I am going to test this as soon as I have some free time.

[Claymore-One]

Wow, this sure caught me by surprise yesterday. I was reading but I can't respond, since pages loads forever for me, due to the wifi in my barracks being horrendously slow. :laugh: But one thing though, I built the deck simply just for pure fun and kicks, taking a break from playing Dredge and Gamekeeper.

- Yes, I was indeed using Angel's Grace and not Angelsong.

The other things that I tried with too before were:
-Chronomantic Escape
-Dawn Charm
-Safe Passage
-Ethereal Haze
There's also False Peace but I do not have access to the card.

I was pretty satisfied with some of those, except for the Chronomantic Escape. Though it recurs, it just felt like it's too expensive and I run into a lot of fog effects once the engine starts to get going. The funny thing about the deck is that, the people who's never played against one before, often wonders how you plan on winning, and then realizes later a little too late.

The one thing I have been messing around also is a GW creature version of the deck. Using cards like:
-Children of Korlis
-Spore Frog
-Kami of False Hope
-Martyr of Sand
-Peacekeeper

Using the draw engine Anvil of Bogardan I was thinking of using Genesis as means of creating a soft lock. Enduring Renewal also came into mind, but have not really tested any of these, are these are just really just theory for now.

Luminarch Ascension, from the sideboard are there for decks which decking is not possible. But I am mainly just playing the deck just for fun and kicks, especially since it was very cheap to make. :laugh:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

General note: Oh important to note that an un-kicked Chant in the early game when they're going to have 2-3 mana is as good or better than a fog later.

@Claymore: Proclamation of Rebirth would be the easiest way to go with fog critters I think. I think at that point you risk venturing into the "why aren't you running Ascension" territory though. Probably not the best synergy with helping them draw all their creature removal.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I will go completely off-kilter here and suggest a once casual deck that I tried to build using Fog effects and Scapeshift. Essentially I was looking to Scapeshift into 4+ Cloudposts/Glimmerposts and then rip off a big Dawnglow Infusion with Test of Endurance as the win. It was certainly a casual deck, but fun...I was even trying the janky Root Maze + Amulet of Vigor pairing to be able to use Selesnya Sanctuary and the post-lands untapped.

Look at it this way, when I run Scapeshift Fog at the next Legacy tournament I go to, you can take some credit for inspiring me
Anyway, Scapeshift-Prismatic Omen-Valakut combo anyone? The upside is, all you need is 5 lands, one of which is boseiju. Tutoring might be an issue in those colors, and I really don't want to run another color, since at 2 colors you could still get Valakut activations against control decks.
Just a thought. Here's a quickie list:

4 Taiga
4 Stomping Ground
4 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Vesuva
4 Forest
4 Mountain
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

4 Sylvan Library

4 Elephant Grass
4 Constant Mists
4 Moment's Peace
4 Prismatic Omen
3 Scapeshift
4 Respite
4 Tangle
4 ?


Obviously, the combo MU is abysmal. But you guys might want to not forget Elephant Grass's existence.

[NokoKonozko]

Oh my god. I love this deck. I put together a quick list and it actually works. This deck is hilariously fun!

Edit: But I kinda got torn apart and milled by a Jace......

[dsck]

Oh my god. I love this deck. I put together a quick list and it actually works. This deck is hilariously fun!

Edit: But I kinda got torn apart and milled by a Jace......

Leyline of Sanctity should take care of that :laugh:

[ReinVos]

The perfect fun card for this deck would have to be one Divine Intervention in the board. If you win game one you can sometimes troll the match home by trying to draw each subsequent game.

[tsabo_tavoc]

The perfect fun card for this deck would have to be one Divine Intervention in the board. If you win game one you can sometimes troll the match home by trying to draw each subsequent game.

Why would you want to draw a game you have taken over? (being able to resolve the Enchantment and survive two more attack phases)

[ReinVos]

I don't know, you wouldn't.

It's just that I personally love that card and it fits in the theme of pissing your opponent off by not allowing them to win.

Someone offered Festival as a suggestion and then said that Holy Day would be better. I want to point out that Festival can actually fog Emrakul, which is nice.

[NokoKonozko]

The one thing I have been messing around also is a GW creature version of the deck.

This would be cool, but it can't play around control decks without getting the Genesis lock and also you open yourself up to creature removal (which hilariously is completed dead against us). I think playing straight fog spells and draw engines is the most consistent.

[NokoKonozko]

Any thoughts on how to beat counterbalance?

[lochlan]

Any thoughts on how to beat counterbalance?

Use the Krosan Grips in the sideboard? Since you're on green they will probably be expecting it in games 2 and 3 and keep a 3cc on top...but it seems like -- assuming you can play much before they get their lock in place, which is tough against CB -- having a lot of draw effects online would significantly weaken the CB/top lock since they won't have as good an idea of what is on top of their library. If they have to draw at least 3 they literally will not be able to keep a 3cc on top of the deck. Maybe try playing K-Grip during their upkeep (i.e. after they draw their top 3 cards).

[NokoKonozko]

Yeah they help but one side of this deck is it lets the opponent play through their whole deck and so after each grip its easy for them to re-stabilize and counter enough fog effects to kill you.

[Kich867]

I didn't want to really delve into my list until I decided I wasn't going to be playing it, but I'll toss it out and see what people think. For one, I don't know why people bothered splashing green, there's no purpose to outside of trying to avoid dredge / reanimator bullshit but those decks will win no matter what game 1 so long as they run Terrastodon / Iona, just due to the inevitability of it all, not so much game 2 though.

I've been running it mono white (I tried U/W with jace and stasis, it worked but, too many janky things, in danger of cool things, lots of de-synergistic qualities). The results have been incredibly favorable and I genuinely can't think of many decks that can topple this strategy.

In fact, mono-white in my opinion has an even better matchup against reanimator since artifacts play such a pivotal role in the deck.

Here's my list:

//Spells: 16
4x Pollen Lullaby
4x Ethereal Haze
4x Peace Talks
4x Orim's Chant

//Enchantments: 7
3x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Island Sanctuary

//Artifacts: 15
4x Anvil of Bogardan
4x Howling Mine
4x Temple Bell
3x Isochron Scepter

//Lands: 22
21x Snow-covered Plains
1x Kor Haven

//Sideboard: 15
2x Sunstone
3x Peace of Mind
2x Luminarch Ascension
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Silence

I haven't run into something that 100% hoses me yet, most aggro based win conditions lose upon resolution of island sanctuary, and if they don't they lose upon resolution of scepter-chant. If they don't, I'm drawing a lot, they're still not hitting me anyways because I have a fist-full of fogs, and it's unlikely I won't have another one in hand or shortly. Combo has trouble getting through Leylines + 8 silences. Control has too many targets to counter and can't reliably stop everything (this is why I don't get Font of Mythos, the card is just bad..it's absurdly expensive to rush an already inevitable thing).

I mean..if they don't have a flier / maindeck means of stopping island sanctuary, I'm even happy to just resolve a sanctuary and hang out until they die.

[NokoKonozko]

Interesting. I like the mono-white approach but i feel like it has opened itself up to control more. Moment's Peace has always been a star performer for me. Also, where are the Angel's Grace? That card consistently wins me games. Finally, why no Font of Mythos and Ancient Tomb?

[Kich867]

Interesting. I like the mono-white approach but i feel like it has opened itself up to control more. Moment's Peace has always been a star performer for me. Also, where are the Angel's Grace? That card consistently wins me games. Finally, why no Font of Mythos and Ancient Tomb?

What acceleration do we need and why would you play font of mythos? The game is inevitably ours, we don't need to rush it, there's no reason to rush it. Font of Mythos is expensive compared to temple bell. Ancient Tomb? No idea why I would run it. Angel's Grace might be good for game 1 against combo but, the lowest I've ever gotten was 3 life and it was in a -very- casual game. Scepter + Pollen Lullaby / Orim's Chant or ISland Sanctuary just win the game for me. It's pretty easy mode, and while they dig for a solution, I'm stocking a hand full of things that will keep them at bay--anvil of bogardan lets me keep a like 12 card hand of fogs..

[NokoKonozko]

Ok I understand no Font, but accelerating into early draw engines (like turn 1) to fill up your hand with fogs is amazing and can outright win you the game. Also, the un-counterability of Grace's is why a play them in the late game when facing down several Cliques and other fliers, against an opponent with a hand full of counters.

[4eak]

My list:

// Lands - 22
11 Plains
11 Forest

// Draw Engine - 16
4 Howling Mine
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Font of Mythos

// Defense - 22
4 Orim's Chant
4 Peace Talks
4 Tangle
4 Moment's Peace
2 Constant Mists
4 Leyline of Sanctity

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Ivory Tower
SB: 3 Elixir of Immortality
SB: 2 Peace of Mind
SB: 2 Glacial Chasm

I've moved back to pure basics. Wasteland and Stifle are real problems. The basics have been very solid for me.

Chant and Peace Talks are by far the best Fog effects in the deck. Chant is obvious, Talks might not be. Talks shrouding effect is outstanding (Chant essentially does the same) - a ridiculous number of games are won simply because you rotated chants/talks and preventing your opponent from playing the card(s) which actually beats your other fog effects. Peace Talks is also exceptionally good in that it allows you to play with information advantage against your opponent. Without one, I slow my tempo to hold up enough mana to play multiple fogs through permission. If Peace Talks resolve, I get to play out the draw engine without fear.

Tangle can sometimes be a double-fog. When your resources are limited, this effect becomes very important. The same goes for Moment's Peace and Constant Mists. Those cutting green are doing it wrong.

I had gone down to 2 Leylines. After playing quite a bit, 4 is clearly correct. It closes so many loopholes opponents would use to play around/through Fog effects.

Beating Burn/Zoo/Sligh/RDW is actually not easy for the deck. I continue to add cards for these matchups. I've not found something I love. Leyline is key, the rest, meh, not sure.

I continue to try Angel's Grace. The fact that it doesn't Fog is a big deal, particularly against any deck packing Burn (of which there are many).


peace,
4eak

[Kich867]

What can zoo realistically win with once Island Sanctuary is down? I don't believe they run fliers, leyline stops the burn..

In game two, peace of mind + the above should be pretty tough to get through.

I don't see what green offers besides already redundant fog effects and a very not-so-useful extra land drop, which I guess helps with constant mists but I rarely even need to expend that many fog effects.

In games where I did (when my opponent had a fast clock and many fliers), I just fogged my way into a scepter chant and took over, they couldn't force discard and eventually scooped.

I feel that 16 draw engines is way too much as well, you don't need a bunch, you really just need to resolve one or two and protect yourself--speed isn't an issue for this deck--no matter what, they will draw their whole deck, if they have an answer, they'll find it, so you need to be prepared for that inevitable answer. I'd rather run scepters etc. over a 4th draw engine and I've never felt like I needed more.

I like temple bell as well since I control when it happens. If I don't need it, I EOT them, it reduces the number of relevant cards they see during their draw step and are able to play in their main phase of each turn.

Font of Mythos just feels so wrong to me, 4 mana for a draw engine, why not just cut it for more fogs? The most important turns for the deck are the first 5 turns. You need to survive those turns, establish a draw engine and not die. If you can do that, unless they have some recurring artifact / enchantment hate and a metric fuckton of counterspells, you should have a seriously good shot at winning that game.

Scepter also makes you not so absolutely fucked against Reanimator when you can cast spells you otherwise couldn't with it. Reanimator usually doesn't run a bounce maindeck and if they do, it's one compared to your 3-4 scepters and chants.

To get more to the point, font of mythos is just too expensive to play, it's a win-more, it's the very definition of win-more in a deck that doesn't give a shit about how fast it wins. You can only actually cast that card when you're clearly and decisively winning, why tie up 4 mana when you could tie up 2 and still have mana to drop multiple fogs if needed?

[4eak]

What can zoo realistically win with once Island Sanctuary is down? I don't believe they run fliers, leyline stops the burn..

I'm beginning to think you haven't played against many Zoo decks with this deck. They generally run between 3-6 answers to artifacts/enchantments in their 75. Leyline does not stop burn and Sanctuary does not stop them from swinging at you.


In game two, peace of mind + the above should be pretty tough to get through.

It certainly helps. It is a roadblock to good pilots of Zoo, not a definitive answer.


I don't see what green offers besides already redundant fog effects and a very not-so-useful extra land drop, which I guess helps with constant mists but I rarely even need to expend that many fog effects.

4x Pollen Lullaby
4x Ethereal Haze

vs.

4 Tangle
4 Moment's Peace

This isn't even close. Tangle is strictly better than Pollen Lullaby. Moment's Peace is outstanding against a counterwall, when you are low on fog effects (which does happen with mediocre hands, mulligans, high amounts of early discard, and against opponents who have the brains to knock out our draw engine). Mana-coloring is not an issue when you have a heavy and colorless draw engine. Why not play green? With Green, you also pickup Grip, which is pretty much the only reliable way to beat Counterbalance.


In games where I did (when my opponent had a fast clock and many fliers), I just fogged my way into a scepter chant and took over, they couldn't force discard and eventually scooped.

I prefer the redundancy, consistency, and resilience over the what are all too often win-more combos of Scepter.


I feel that 16 draw engines is way too much as well, you don't need a bunch, you really just need to resolve one or two and protect yourself--speed isn't an issue for this deck--no matter what, they will draw their whole deck, if they have an answer, they'll find it, so you need to be prepared for that inevitable answer. I'd rather run scepters etc. over a 4th draw engine and I've never felt like I needed more.

Speed is an issue if you want to win 2 of 3 in 50 minutes. You absolutely have to snowball the draw engine if you intend to play tournament magic with time limits.

I'm fine with going down to 15, maybe even 14. You simply can't keep hands which don't have at least 1 draw piece in them (and you prefer 2).

In many cases, smart opponents will go for your draw pieces with their permission and board control. You have to able to play through that. I'll grant that if your opponents are not intelligent enough to know when to go for your draw engine (which is a significant amount of the time), then yeah, having only 12 draw pieces will suffice.


I like temple bell as well since I control when it happens. If I don't need it, I EOT them, it reduces the number of relevant cards they see during their draw step and are able to play in their main phase of each turn.

I've been using it in Modern. I like Bell as well. I still prefer Rites of Flourishing to it, particularly as it is pretty vital to the 'snowball' role this deck takes under time limits.


Scepter also makes you not so absolutely fucked against Reanimator when you can cast spells you otherwise couldn't with it. Reanimator usually doesn't run a bounce maindeck and if they do, it's one compared to your 3-4 scepters and chants.


Reanimator is a bad matchup no matter how you cut it. Scepter does not improve it much. The odds of even getting that turn 2 scepter (which is where you'll need it against a competent pilot with a proper build) are pretty low.

We clearly disagree on Scepter (a card with which I have an sizable amount of experience). Scepter is not as scary to an opponent who knows how to play against it.


Font of Mythos just feels so wrong to me, 4 mana for a draw engine, why not just cut it for more fogs? The most important turns for the deck are the first 5 turns. You need to survive those turns, establish a draw engine and not die. If you can do that, unless they have some recurring artifact / enchantment hate and a metric fuckton of counterspells, you should have a seriously good shot at winning that game....To get more to the point, font of mythos is just too expensive to play, it's a win-more, it's the very definition of win-more in a deck that doesn't give a shit about how fast it wins. You can only actually cast that card when you're clearly and decisively winning, why tie up 4 mana when you could tie up 2 and still have mana to drop multiple fogs if needed?


I'm not hugely fond of Font. I agree, it is slow. I wish I had something I liked more. It is better than you've claimed. Cutting it for fogs is, again, failing to see why we want so many draw pieces. Play Temple Bell if you prefer.

The first 4-5 turns are important for establishing draw engines. Font comes down on the late side of things, but it does its work admirably.

In terms of survival, the most important turns for the deck are not the first 5 turns. Honestly, there aren't a ton of non-combo decks which consistently win on turn 4 or even 5 (especially if you've played a single fog during turns 2-5). I don't find it difficult to survive the first 5 turns at all. If you must (and sometimes you must), play your draw engine, and let them hit you. Life-total is a buffer.

We clearly disagree on the 'definition of win-more'.


peace,
4eak

[Pltinum]

Hi all,

Just been testing the deck a bit. It is Amazingly fun!

However I noticed a problem after sideboarding. Surgical extraction! If they blast a draw engine (no biggie), then surgical it.. or double surgical. It's impossible to still win, because you will be milled first on top of having to survive and maybe even finding one of your last draw engines still available. I have to admit not running island sanctuary, which might help. But tempo seems impossible to win really (or even maverick after side).

Put in wheel of sun and moon on yourself? Because surgical is all over the place?

[Nonex]

I'd suggest Ground Seal instead. It stops Surgicals, Extirpates, Snapcasters, and partially Dredge and Reanimator.

[zulander]

Sulfuric Vortex owns this deck :(

[Pltinum]

leyline of sanctity still helps (maybe mull aggressively? There aren't alot of burn sideboards able to deal with it..)

edit: Nvm, it doesn't target. Krosan grip then?

[Pltinum]

What do you guys think of cop: red in sideboard against reach? In addition to leyline.

[NokoKonozko]

Dark Ascension brought us another fog effect. Clinging Mists
I like it because it is like Tangle and can work as a double fog effect. Synergizes well with Angel's Grace and helps you out in some of those late game spots.
My problem with it so far is, first of all, that it costs 3 and therefore ties up more mana and lands a turn later. Secondly, it doesn't really "shine" until the late game and being really good early game is what we need.

Anyone else's thoughts?

[Kich867]

Your problem with it is enough reason to not run it, tbh. For the very fact that Tangle even exists is why that card isn't good enough. Not only does it cost more mana, it has a dangerously bad caveat to being as good as Tangle is.

[dahcmai]

I always wanted to play this card in something along these lines, but never could make it fit since the color it's in isn't exactly good at stalling things. It just screams use me with Crucible of Worlds or Loam.

Glacial Crevasses

[bruizar]

If you're looking for another way to protect yourself you could go for 4x Leyline of the Void/Wheel of Sun and Moon and 4xWeb of Inertia. If you're also running 4x Leyline of Sanctity you have a big chance of opening with a leyline.

Otherwise, you could look into lands.dec (exploration effects / LoaM / Chasm / Constant Mists)

Or you could reuse a Spore Frog indefinitely

[Mikeleroi]

Eeeer... sorry about the silly question, but how does the deck win?

Milling the opponent, but I haven´t seen any effect to prevent us to draw.

[Leftconsin]

Eeeer... sorry about the silly question, but how does the deck win?

Milling the opponent, but I haven´t seen any effect to prevent us to draw.

All of the draw effects have the opponent draw first. This is what puts you ahead. You should be finishing the game with about 6-10 cards left in your library when your opponent draws out.

[Kich867]

Eeeer... sorry about the silly question, but how does the deck win?

Milling the opponent, but I haven´t seen any effect to prevent us to draw.

Trust me, you'll win. It's rarely even close how many cards you have in your library than they do. Every time you play a draw engine, they get hit by it first. By the end of the game, they have a lot more. In my list, Island Sanctuary makes it even that much easier.

[Madmartigan]

Quick Q:
Does the deck just fold to Emrakul?

Seems like Sneak/Show, Combo Elves, etc. can just discard him to reshuffle, unless we've got Anvil of Bogardan out -- and it's game.

If not, then just casting him or Showing him seems devastating.

Scepter-Chant seems like the only way to deal?

The whole thing just seems kind of awkward.
Has anyone had problems with this?

[Kich867]

Quick Q:
Does the deck just fold to Emrakul?

Seems like Sneak/Show, Combo Elves, etc. can just discard him to reshuffle, unless we've got Anvil of Bogardan out -- and it's game.

If not, then just casting him or Showing him seems devastating.

Scepter-Chant seems like the only way to deal?

The whole thing just seems kind of awkward.
Has anyone had problems with this?

If Emrakul is a problem and you have no main deck answer (I run scepter/chant), side in Luminarch Ascesnion games 2 and 3, or, run scepter chant, emrakul is fairly uncommon anyways.

[4eak]

My current list:

// Lands - 22
9 Plains
9 Forest
4 Windswept Heath

// Draw Engine - 16
4 Howling Mine
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Temple Bell

// Defense - 22
4 Peace Talks
4 Orim's Chant
4 Moment's Peace
4 Tangle
2 Constant Mists
4 Leyline of Sanctity

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Peace of Mind
SB: 1 Elixir of Immortality
SB: 1 Story Circle
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Isochron Scepter
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring

I've moved back to using Windswept Heath. It makes the manabase a bit smoother, and while I don't like being subject to Stifle, it is probably worth the vulnerability except in the most stifle-heavy metagames. Not being vulnerable to both Wasteland and Stifle has been the important part.

After testing again, I've changed Font to Bell. The mana efficiency of Font isn't as important as the mana cost of Bell. The control which you have with Bell is also nice.

The sideboard has been revamped as an E-tutor board. I didn't like E-tutor in the main, but it may be necessary for the sideboard. I'm happy to defend the choices I've made, but I'm also looking for better cards. I'm actually considering taking this to a tournament because it is a lot of fun to play.

[Kich867]

E-tutor for Ensnaring bridge is a sexy answer to Emrakul :laugh:

[Choux]

Emrakul discarded at discard phase own this deck. Need memoricide like

[Lejay]

Jester's cap is colorless and can be fetched by enlightened tutor. :D

[Darkenslight]

Emrakul discarded at discard phase own this deck. Need memoricide like

Nope - you win on your opponent drawing from an empty library: they'd need at least one more shuffle effect than you have ability to make them draw cards, and you can respond to the shuffle triggers by either:

a) Exilihng their graveyard (Emrakul): or
b) making them draw in response to the replacement effect (Temple Bell).

Relevant part of the FAQ:


* Since this ability doesn't specifically trigger on leaving the battlefield, it doesn't behave like a leaves-the-battlefield ability. The ability will trigger from the graveyard.
-- If the legendary Eldrazi had lost this ability while on the battlefield and then was then put into your graveyard, the ability would still trigger and your graveyard would get shuffled into your library.
-- However, if the legendary Eldrazi lost this ability when it was put into your graveyard (due to Yixlid Jailer, for example), the ability won't trigger.

[4eak]

You simply can't count on your opponent having Emrakul on the very bottom (or nearly bottom) of their library. The nice part with this deck is that you can consistently expect to see every singleton (particularly with E-tutor in the deck) you board in.

I don't think you can effectively beat a deck running more than 1 Emrakul without Surgical Extraction (perhaps I should just run this). If they only have 1, you can deal with it.

Possible Gameplan:

+1 Ensnaring Bridge (in case Emrakul gets into play)
+1 Elixir of Immortality
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+X Enlightened Tutor

It is fairly unlikely that you will deck yourself if you play very carefully - Elixir of Immortality lets you accept some number of Emrakul triggers (if they don't get it into play, you do have to answer at least 1 trigger). Eventually, you'll have Crypt, and you can respond to his trigger. (Remember that Orim's chant may need to be used offensively to resolve spells.)



peace,
4eak

[Kich867]

Went 3-0 at my local FNM (didn't drop a game, albeit, not against the best decks, but no one had game against it anyways).

List:
//Fogs: 16
4x Peace Talks
4x Orim's Chant
4x Ethereal Haze
4x Pollen Lullaby

//Draw: 12
4x Howling Mine
4x Anvil of Bogardan
4x Temple Bell

//Lock: 11
4x Isochron Scepter
4x Island Sanctuary
3x Leyline of Sanctity

//Lands: 21
21x Foil Plains

//Sideboard:
3x Peace of Mind
4x Silence
4x Tormod's Crypt
1x Day of Judgment
1x Luminarch's Ascension
2x Sunstone

Round 1: Zoo -- A little janky
I fogged him to death, a resolved Island Sanctuary and Scepter-Chant kept me going long enough to draw into multiples, he didn't find Qasali Pridemage's / whatever else in time. This was very easy, and I never felt in danger. Leyline of Sanctity opening hand both games (mulled into it game 2).

1-0-0
2-0-0

Round 2: Esper Aggro -- Very Janky
This was no contest, I might have died once since it was this weird Esper artifact deck, he dropped tezzy and pumped him to 4, I played Leyline next turn and the game was over. Game 2 I had it in opening hand, he never got to land a point of damage on me.

2-0-0
4-0-0

Round 3: Mono Green Aggro -- Very Janky (no idea how he got here)
This was also no contest, he didn't run much in the way of artifact removal, there was one moment where he had some enchantment that whenever I cast a spell he could put into play the top card of his deck if it's a creature, and it was Vorinclex, so if I chanted him on his upkeep I'd be tapped out for the next turn (I had 3 mines/anvils down and could -not- find land for the life of me). So I just waited for his main phase, he didn't have the mana to hard cast it, so I just chanted then. From there out, it was pretty easy. At one point he EOT killed my scepter, so I just hard casted it on his upkeep and replayed a scepter-chant, it was already over.

3-0-0
6-0-0

It wasn't an impressive showing, but given the field, there was only 1 deck that could -actually- beat me (roommate playing reanimator). I'm still looking for strategies that -beat- this deck consistently and they're very rare. Reanimator naming Iona on white turn 2 hurts, so..I could just splash green if I was so inclined and that'd be fine, do a nice even split and that'd be taken care of..

The person that got first I never played, if I did, I probably would have won since he was playing a U/R delverish variant that relied strictly on creatures swinging (way more control, way less to no burn, more creatures). Second place was Pox, which isn't the greatest match-up, but I'm confidant I would have won 2-0.

Quite frankly, turbo-fog feels like the strongest deck I've ever played, it's the most consistent deck I've played, there's actually, realistically few answers to how the deck operates for an alarming number of decks.

The only reason I don't play it more is because, as shown in this tournament, every single one of my opponents raged hard because they couldn't do anything the whole game. It was really awkward, it wasn't fun for them, I was enjoying myself on the inside for playing tightly and ignoring their mostly negative comments about the deck..

I actually accumulated a migraine over the course of the night hearing everyone bitching incessantly about the deck, luckily, I brought 5 friends with me (somehow never played them), and the regulars there were cheering me on.

What decks actually have game against turbofog? It can't be messed with via tempo, artifact/enchantment hate is usually sideboarded and -usually- designated to 3 cards, burn can't target you, creatures can't hit you, once scepter-chant goes online and island sanctuary goes online simultaneously they have few to no options of survival.. if I'm worried about counter-spells I can just chant them on my turn and then drop draw engines..

I've wracked my brain trying to figure out why this isn't in the decks to beat section. To date, I've only dropped games to Reanimator if they can get Iona online before I can get scepter-chant going (I board in a playset of silences so I have 8 of them). I haven't lost to anything else. I kind of feel like it's a cop-out to say if they just counter your draw engines you lose, like..you might lose game 1, but you can play around counters with silence effects, and even just having 1 draw engine online can seal the game.

[Vacrix]

This deck screams Luminarch Ascension. You can fog your way through 4 turns relatively easily with this deck. By that time you should be making about 2 or 3 4/4 angels per turn.

[fresscott]

In the original sideboard, what is Gaea's Blessing used for? In the tournament report it was boarded in against Maverick and MUC.

Would Xantid Swarm do anything relevant out of the board?



I'm still looking for strategies that -beat- this deck consistently and they're very rare.

Counterbalance or the ultimate of Jace TMS I assume (having never played this deck.)

[emidln]

In the original sideboard, what is Gaea's Blessing used for? In the tournament report it was boarded in against Maverick and MUC.

Would Xantid Swarm do anything relevant out of the board?




Counterbalance or the ultimate of Jace TMS I assume (having never played this deck.)

I've encountered this a couple times on Cockatrice. Typically the games involve my opponent tapping out on turn 2 or 3 and quickly losing to a Tendrils of Agony.

[4eak]

Quite frankly, turbo-fog feels like the strongest deck I've ever played, it's the most consistent deck I've played, there's actually, realistically few answers to how the deck operates for an alarming number of decks.

I've wracked my brain trying to figure out why this isn't in the decks to beat section.

http://i.imgur.com/9tvKY.jpg

Just in case it needs to be said: this isn't actually the greatest deck in the world. There are many strategies which have positive matchups against this deck.

I'll admit the deck is better than people might realize, but for now, this deck will stay in N&D.


peace,
4eak

[Kich867]

In the original sideboard, what is Gaea's Blessing used for? In the tournament report it was boarded in against Maverick and MUC.

Would Xantid Swarm do anything relevant out of the board?

Counterbalance or the ultimate of Jace TMS I assume (having never played this deck.)

Counterbalance can be tough but the deck is uncommon. Jace TMS can't do shit to us (see: maindeck Leyline of Sanctity, his fateseal and ultimate both can't hit us as it requires targeting a player).

Counterbalance can also actually be played around, but anyways--I was joking when I said it belonged in the DTB section, but it certainly is a better deck than most people realize. I'm still convinced mono-white is better than splashing green, this deck can't afford the chance of being color screwed, you can only run 4 fetches that actually give you flexibility, and you need to hit your land drops--wasteland would hurt too bad to run savannah's. For these reasons, I would run mono-white, and simply prepare for graveyard strategies.

The only things you need to worry about are: Graveyard strategies, emrakul strategies, and combo strategies.

For graveyard, Grafdigger's Cage or Tormod's Crypt are pretty brutal--I can't decide which is better. Tormod's Crypt can be pretty easily played around but buys enough time to set up a contain, Grafdigger's Cage can't be played around but can be bounced.

Against Emrakul, running Luminarch Ascension is pretty relevant. Also, Surgical Extraction isn't a terrible idea since it affects all 3 things actually.

Against combo, I think extra silences, ascension, and surgical (along with your maindeck leylines) should be enough to win.


//Sideboard:
4x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Silence
4x Luminarch Ascension
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Leyline of Sanctity

I think that would be my optimal sideboard. I would rather them have to answer Cage and use Surgical Extraction to snipe key targets than play Crypt. Silence, Ascension, Surgical, and a fourth leyline would all come in against combo since you don't need to fog anything (barring empty the warrens but I think we'll be ok there). Against emrakul, just surgical should suffice.

[gkraigher]

I think this deck definitely has great potential. I am wondering why no one has put enlightened tutors main deck. You could play other cards like Moat, Humility, and hanna's custody.

I get the fog thing, and peace talks is just an amazing card. Isn't swords to plowshares a better card than a fog though. It gives no benefit to your opponent and if you put it on a scepter, you are at least gaining card advantage in the event the scepter gets destroyed.

Another fun trick I was thinking about was playing Tithe and Flagstones of Trokair. I feel like you need about 6 lands to feel really safe and ensure you can win the game. Am i picturing this deck wrong?

Playing 1 emrakul is good for 2 reasons. Alternate Win condition and you cannot be milled to death.

[Kich867]

I think this deck definitely has great potential. I am wondering why no one has put enlightened tutors main deck. You could play other cards like Moat, Humility, and hanna's custody.

I get the fog thing, and peace talks is just an amazing card. Isn't swords to plowshares a better card than a fog though. It gives no benefit to your opponent and if you put it on a scepter, you are at least gaining card advantage in the event the scepter gets destroyed.

Another fun trick I was thinking about was playing Tithe and Flagstones of Trokair. I feel like you need about 6 lands to feel really safe and ensure you can win the game. Am i picturing this deck wrong?

Playing 1 emrakul is good for 2 reasons. Alternate Win condition and you cannot be milled to death.

The reason people don't play moat and humility is because it's entirely unnecessary and more mana intensive than it needs to be.

Why run Moat over Island Sanctuary? It adds merfolk to your list of "things that can hit me" but costs half as much and is 100% beneficial to the deck. Drawing fewer cards than your opponent ensures you'll never lose to your own milling via some weird situations. In fact, with an Island Sanctuary out, you can actually just decline to draw any amount of cards during your draw step. So in the event you'll somehow end up drawing out before your opponent, you can decline all draws via Island Sanctuary--not very relevant, but it's there.

I wouldn't want Emrakul in my main board. I have no reason to beat them to death, if they run emrakul in their mainboard, that's annoying, I'll go to game 2 and run enough means to remove him and/or kill them. Maybe I'll squeeze 2 Luminarch Ascension main-deck.

No, swords to plowshares is not very good in the deck. Swords to plowshares stops one creature, fog stops all creatures. Any creature you'd want to remove, Qasali Pridemage-types, can kill themselves at instant speed anyways and avoid it.

If I put anything on a scepter, it's Orim's Chant. Why would I put Swords to Plowshares on a scepter when I could, at the beginning of their upkeep, remove their ability to play anything or attack me that turn? Orim's Chant on a Scepter reads: "Take N turns, where N is the number of turns until your opponent finds a Krosan Grip or something. Then, just hard-cast Orim's Chant at the end of their upkeep and play another Scepter-Chant on your turn."

Enlightened Tutors don't need to be main-decked because you should be running 12 draw engines and about ~16 fogs. 3-4 Leylines of Sanctity, which gives you 8-9 open slots to do with what you want. I put scepters in because they work and dominate with what the deck intends to do: sit back and wait.

Tithe doesn't really fit in with the deck, the assumption you need a lot of land in order to not die isn't necessarily true. I usually win when I have 3-4 lands in play. By the time an answer is found, my hand is so perfectly sculpted that no number of counters could prevent me from stopping this combat. So the real turning point is right then, that area between "I can actually die" and "I can scepter-chant you with an Island Sanctuary up".

That's something I'm noticing more and more though, my build in particular rarely ever actually needs to fog someone. In the last FNM I attended I only cast fogs for fun, it was never to save my life, I assembled my lock one at a time--first with Island Sanctuary until I find a scepter-chant combo, and then it just spirals downward.

There was only 1 game out of 6 that I dipped below 15 health, so I'm inclined to drop something (probably ethereal haze or peace talks, I like that Haze is very inexpensive but I like that Talks gives my lock protection for two turns), maybe 1 haze and 1 talks for 2x luminarch ascension maindeck in the event someone has game 1 emrakul or I just can't stick a scepter.

I'll look into that, being able to EOT a bunch of 2 mana 4/4 fliers is pretty baller.

[Madmartigan]

Interesting stuff. I like your mono-W build.

A couple things:

1) The Mercadian Masques fog-effect for 1 mana, that stops there from being a combat phase, seems better than Ethereal Haze -- for instance it also cans Emrakul.

2) Island Sanctuary can only decline one draw per turn, if you look at the latest printing or whatever it is showing me on the hypertext markup.

3) Is 4x Island Sanctuary overkill? Maybe 2-3? 1x Elixir of Immortality could give a bit more game in game 1 vs. Emrakul decks. They can't just discard him to win, unless they counter Elixir. You'll eventually get Scepter-Chant & Anvil and take it.

I'm going to try this once I get some time...

[Kich867]

Interesting stuff. I like your mono-W build.

A couple things:

1) The Mercadian Masques fog-effect for 1 mana, that stops there from being a combat phase, seems better than Ethereal Haze -- for instance it also cans Emrakul.

2) Island Sanctuary can only decline one draw per turn, if you look at the latest printing or whatever it is showing me on the hypertext markup.

3) Is 4x Island Sanctuary overkill? Maybe 2-3? 1x Elixir of Immortality could give a bit more game in game 1 vs. Emrakul decks. They can't just discard him to win, unless they counter Elixir. You'll eventually get Scepter-Chant & Anvil and take it.

I'm going to try this once I get some time...

According to Oracle:

If you get multiple draws or you use a spell or ability during the draw step to draw extra cards, you can have the replacement effect apply to any one or all of those. You need only have it apply once to get the effect. If you skip more than one, there is no additional effect.

I had no idea there existed such a card, it would be most beneficial to the deck. Do you happen to know the name of it? I'll just browse it on essential magic haha. Thank you!

Island Sanctuary isn't overkill as a 4-of, not in my opinion. You need to see it early. If I drop a howling mine, I drop IS next turn and get it running as soon as possible. The number of decks that card shuts off is astounding--although with the popularity of delver, it may not be so true. But it still stands that a ton of decks operate on the ground and present them with a 2 mana moat, they cave.

[1maarten1]

According to Oracle:


I had no idea there existed such a card, it would be most beneficial to the deck. Do you happen to know the name of it? I'll just browse it on essential magic haha. Thank you!

Island Sanctuary isn't overkill as a 4-of, not in my opinion. You need to see it early. If I drop a howling mine, I drop IS next turn and get it running as soon as possible. The number of decks that card shuts off is astounding--although with the popularity of delver, it may not be so true. But it still stands that a ton of decks operate on the ground and present them with a 2 mana moat, they cave.


Moment of Silence

Anyway, I'm testing the deck but I am still not sure wether to splash green or not. Green does have some nice fogs and the additional draw engine... White offers Sanctuary, but that can be hated easier than the usual fog effects. Thoughts on this?

[4eak]

I'm certainly not convinced the deck shouldn't be GW. I find the card advantage provided by Green's fogs to be very useful against top decks with good pilots.

I have been testing mono white builds. I don't like Kich's build (no offense). Besides a rock solid manabase, I think the real strength of the deck is its ability to abuse e-tutor more effectively than GW (in part because GW is strictly better at the card advantage/redundancy gameplan, and mono white needs to go in another direction if it is worth using). This is what I have for mono-white.

// Lands - 22
22 Snow-Covered Plains

// Draw Engine - 12
4 Howling Mine
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Temple Bell

// E-tutor Package - 6
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Island Sanctuary

// Fog + Utility - 16
4 Peace Talks
4 Orim's Chant
4 Ethereal Haze
4 Moment of Silence

// Leyline - 4
4 Leyline of Sanctity

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Isochron Scepter
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Peace of Mind
SB: 1 Elixir of Immortality
SB: 1 Story Circle
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Luminarch Ascension
SB: 1 Sunstone

Instead of going for the card advantage built into Green (which matters before you have your lock pieces in place), white variants can specialize in the card disadvantageous, risky and yet often rewarding strategy of a silver-bullet combo-prison. E-tutor's card disadvantage is more acceptable in mono white.

E-tutor essentially allows you to open hands as if you had 16 draw engines without actually playing 16. I really do want to open hands with 2 draw engines every single game. I expect to see at least one countered, discarded, or destroyed against any decent deck (I am not terribly interested in how this deck performs against Jank).

E-tutor also has flexibility built right into it. Yeah, it is often used in your first turn to get a Howling Mine, but it does more for you. Have the Chant in hand? Go for a scepter. Does the deck you face autolose to Island Sanctuary (some do), then go for it. Are you playing against a burn-heavy deck (Burn/Sligh/UR Delver/Zoo), you're nearing burn-out range, and you didn't open with and didn't draw Leyline yet? Go get Leyline.

I don't like seeing multiple Scepters or Island Sanctuaries. Both are very conditional cards and they have tremendous diminishing returns. They epitomize Silver Bullets (especially Sanctuary). E-tutor is born for this. The card disadvantage of E-tutor is worth the bomb you get, but running 4x of the Bombs is a waste of deck space and results in too many dead draws.

Lastly, the sideboard becomes very flexible.

Anyways, I'm still not convinced mono white is the way to go. I've played too many tight games where I really needed my green fogs, and where the combo-prison would have autolost.



peace,
4eak

[Kich867]

Would you mind detailing what those scenarios were? I'm not doubting you I'm just genuinely curious as to what situation you get put in where you felt threatened enough to require recurring fogs and even relied on fogs at all in order to not die.

I disagree that E-Tutor is right for the deck. E-tutor finds bombs, Sanctuary and Scepter aren't bombs. Redundancy for them is important, if they get countered or destroyed you want to have more. The way I play my list focuses entirely on them, using fogs only under extreme circumstances where I lose those pieces and go into fog-mode until I find more of them (which doesn't take long).

In most games, I only ever cast a fog 2-3 times in between getting my stuff blown up--which isn't common. Realistically, they need to deal with both scepter and sanctuary and all of the draw engines. That's too many targets. If they blow up both the scepter and the sanctuary, by the time they get 2 K-Grips before I get redundant copies I've drawn too many fogs for them to get damage through.

Also note that, it's not a combo-prison. It's one or the other or both. Island Sanctuary locks most games out by itself, I just drop Scepter-Chant to stop them from playing things--the fog effect is largely irrelevant. If I drop scepter-chant before they find a Qasali Pridemade, their maindeck answer is unreachable. If I don't, that's fine, I still have 2-3 things that they need to get rid of before they can start trying to hit me. Relying on fogs per turn is too risky I think, the buyback of saccing land also kind of sucks as they can really accelerate the game, playing multiple mines per turn.

[Madmartigan]

Island Sanctuary locks most games out by itself,

I'm generally digging what you're saying, but..

Tombstalker, Delver, Lord of Atlantis, Vendilion Clique, Bitterblossom, Emrakul, Grim Lavamancer, Iona, burn, combo, even if they can't destroy I.Sanc. it hardly seems to "lock most games out by itself"

[4eak]

Would you mind detailing what those scenarios were? I'm not doubting you I'm just genuinely curious as to what situation you get put in where you felt threatened enough to require recurring fogs and even relied on fogs at all in order to not die.

I'm bewildered that you need examples. You should be running into them pretty often if you are playing against high quality decks and opponents. Your tournament report showed you played against a lot of jank, but I assume that isn't what you are basing your views of this deck upon. Against a gauntlet of tier 1 decks with good pilots, I think you'll agree this deck is much less powerful than you've implied in the past couple posts.

Whenever an opponent can play aggro-control against me, 1-for-1 my draw engines and lockpieces, while beating me down, I'm in a lot of trouble. A combination of discard, permission, and permanent destruction with a clock is the classic problem for any combo deck, including prison decks like this one. Green fogs provide time walks and card advantage I wouldn't otherwise have, letting me come back when I'm down and enabling me to play through hate in many cases.

Discard and permanent destruction aside, not being worried about permission against the various tempo decks of the format (which is most of permission decks at this point) is absurd. Chant is usually not there for you (only a 40% to open with one, remember), and even if you have one, you might not have the time to wait for it. Even if you did have the time to wait, they can still blow you out with permission.

Additionally, as I think this colors one's perception of the viability and degree of vulnerability of this deck, I think there is also a wild difference between someone who knows howto play against this deck and someone who doesn't. I grant we should take into account this 'rogue' factor, but in larger tournaments, as you reach the later rounds at the top tables, there will not be nearly as many people who will be confused by the rogue factor and fail to use the appropriate strategy against this deck. This deck does not play well through well-played disruption - it also happens to lose against correctly played combo outright (which is a significant chunk of the format at this point). I think the deck is only marginally viable, despite the fact that it is so much fun to play.

Here are some scenarios:


UR-Delver drops Delver, flips it, Spell Snares my Engine/Lock, they rush me down, I try to drop a second piece, they Spell Snare/FoW/Daze it, they win on turn 5. The reach of their burn can be also dangerous, and I can't expect to have Leyline.
RUG tempo stifles my imprint, SSnares/FoWs my 2nd and 3rd lock piece. Goyf and Delver are wrecking my face.
Team America or Deadguy goes Thoughtseize/Iok, then Hymn, then SFM or Goyf, and beats me down before I recover.
In many of these cases, the ability to use green fogs to live until I can get the ball rolling is the difference between having a chance to win and losing.

Their good hands will defeat our good hands. With mulligans on our side, a single piece of disruption can often be enough to win the game if they can put a clock up.


I disagree that E-Tutor is right for the deck.

That may be true. But, E-tutor is really one of the only reasons I can find to not splash green, as coloration with E-tutor can be very problematic.


In most games, I only ever cast a fog 2-3 times in between getting my stuff blown up--which isn't common. Realistically, they need to deal with both scepter and sanctuary and all of the draw engines. That's too many targets. If they blow up both the scepter and the sanctuary, by the time they get 2 K-Grips before I get redundant copies I've drawn too many fogs for them to get damage through.

You've missed the point. By the time they need to "ith both scepter and sanctuary and all of the draw engines," we've usually already won (the same is true for GW). The danger isn't when you've already got the ball rolling. By that time, you can afford to eat a K-grip or two. The danger is failing to survive before you can get the ball rolling. Hopefully my examples point that out to you. I'm worried almost exclusively about getting blown out in the early to midgame (which will happen against good decks and players).


Also note that, it's not a combo-prison. It's one or the other or both.

What? This is entirely a combo-prison strategy. In fact, this is the quintessential combo-prison as far as I can see - we don't even run wincons besides decking (at least not in the main). You don't need an absolute hardlock (3Sphere + CoW + Smokestack @ 1 with your opponent lacking any permanents) to call it a prison. Whether you fog the entire time, drop a hardlock, or use fogs to glue the locks together, this is is a combo-prison deck.


Island Sanctuary locks most games out by itself

Ridiculous. By itself, Island Sanctuary does not lock out even a quarter of the games in competitive Legacy. There are many flyers, Planewalkers, burn, and other ways to win the game which get around Island Sanctuary. I grant it locks out a handful of decks by itself (although, you still need draw pieces to win 2 of 3 in 50 minutes - so, not really by itself in all mosts cases). I'll also grant that in conjunction with other spells, it can provide a serious problem for many decks.


I just drop Scepter-Chant to stop them from playing things--the fog effect is largely irrelevant.

If it were 'largely irrelevant', then you wouldn't find it 'largely relevant' for someone to swap out Chants for Silences, right? I think the Fog effect of Chant is quite relevant, even if I don't wouldn't use it most of the time to fog. That said, I actually do end up using it most of the time to fog and silence.


Relying on fogs per turn is too risky I think, the buyback of saccing land also kind of sucks as they can really accelerate the game, playing multiple mines per turn.

Relying upon fogs in mono white is not the way to go, I could agree to that. It is perfectly acceptable for GW. Note, most of your green fogs aren't buyback. With practice, you'll know when you should or shouldn't be buying back Constant Mists. You are right, if you mess up with it, you can mana screw yourself to the point that you basically lock yourself out. It does fill in some gaps though. Land heavy hands/draws; when you've dropped one draw piece, but can't seem to find more fogs; and in some games you can flash it midgame and explain to your opponent what you're doing (if you are confident that they can't break out of the lock), they'll often scoop. Constant Mists is the weakest of the green fogs that are worth using (hence only 2 of them) - Tangle and Moment's Peace are substantially better.



peace,
4eak

[Kich867]

I'm generally digging what you're saying, but..

Tombstalker, Delver, Lord of Atlantis, Vendilion Clique, Bitterblossom, Emrakul, Grim Lavamancer, Iona, burn, combo, even if they can't destroy I.Sanc. it hardly seems to "lock most games out by itself"

Note: Most by definition does not refer to every game, just more than 50% of them. I don't think it's that farfetched to say that most decks don't run a lot of fliers and/or creatures with islandwalk. If they do, there's only a few of them. Let's just look at the Decks to Beat section for right now:

Nic Fit: As a general statement, doesn't really run fliers. Tombstalker isn't in most of the lists I'm looking at. The few fliers I'm seeing in these lists are all fairly unimpressive. Island Sanctuary would lock that match up long enough to secure a win.

Blade Control: Doesn't run many fliers, can run Elspeth which will help, but she won't be around until turn 4. Most lists I'm seeing run her as a 1 or 2-of. Clique will show up, but again, often as a 2-of. Clique beats for three and can't be played in multiples, a 7 turn clock, not terrible. This is one of the worse situations with fliers, delver could show up here too. Overall this is a harder matchup, lots of counters, Spell Snare shines. Agreed, IS won't lock this game out.

RUG Tempo: Just delver. Burn is negated by Leyline. Delver needs to flip, not very hard for it to do so, but IS will hold up for awhile and prevent most of the damage you'll have to stop.

Reanimator: Combo matchups are just played differently. Game one is likely a blow-out, but that's just reanimator's thing. Game two is going to be more about removing their bombs and keeping them silenced so they can't reanimate.

GW Mav: Scryb Ranger, not the biggest deal. They have access to maindeck QPM's but unless they keep a hand with like two of them in it it's not the worst situation, fogs take care of this matchup but Island Sanctuary can go pretty damn far in it.

Dredge: See reanimator.

Ant: See combo.

I'll perfectly accept that Island Sanctuary doesn't literally win the game for you, I guess my point was that, much like Scepter-Chant, there is a certain period of time where if you let Turbofog sit for too long you simply just can't win the game. Island Sanctuary, very often, provides you that time. Turns where you don't have to burn mana to fog and can instead develop your draw engine behind a Sanctuary are valuable turns.

In regards to combo and burn, obviously not.

It's an absurdly powerful card, for our purposes it's a 2 mana moat. It's strictly better than moat in our deck. Moat is a powerful, powerful card because honestly, flying (even right now) isn't a big thing in Legacy. Delver is the only surefire, consistent flying win. Most decks don't win with fliers and don't plan to. Tombstalker is fairly rare, the last time I ran into one was months ago against someone's janky U/B control deck.

-- @4eak, those are all perfectly valid points. Apologies for my ignorance, I just haven't run into as much trouble. Either I get lucky and they don't have what they need when they need it or they're not playing right. For now, I'm going to maintain mono white, look into the better Ethereal Haze, and I actually skimmed past a white card on gatherer that I really liked--it made the implication that it was a fog for spell damage but I genuinely can't recall the card or what it said exactly, I'll have to see if that's what it really was--if it were the case it might be beneficial to test out. I believe it was Gilded Light. I'm not sure how useful it would be though. Angel's Grace might just be better against the combo match-up but it might help with dealing with burn strategies.

[4eak]

I actually skimmed past a white card on gatherer that I really liked--it made the implication that it was a fog for spell damage but I genuinely can't recall the card or what it said exactly, I'll have to see if that's what it really was--if it were the case it might be beneficial to test out. I believe it was Gilded Light. I'm not sure how useful it would be though. Angel's Grace might just be better against the combo match-up but it might help with dealing with burn strategies.

Perhaps Dawn Charm? I had been using it in my mono white build. I like the mana efficiency of 1cc Fogs, but Dawn Charm is certainly very flexible.


peace,
4eak

[Kich867]

I'm pretty sure it was Gilded Light, but after looking at it again, smart players after seeing it will simply play their burns at sorcery speed in the event of no leyline. Chant can be responded to.

I was wondering if COP:Red would be a wise investment for the sideboard but I'm not so sure. Peace of Mind may just be a better option. Dawn Charm is pretty damn flexible, but in terms of white fog's I think Pollen Lullaby, Orim's Chant, Peace Talks, and Moment of Silence are better options.

Is the list you're running similar to what you've posted previously?

I'll be bringing my list to FNM again this week and hopefully get paired with better opponents. I mean, if there's one thing to say about the deck, it sweeps bad players with ~100% consistency haha.

[Choux]

Dudes,


What's shocking me, is that your deck can be beaten by a deck with 1 emrakul and 59 mountains.

[4eak]

@ Kich967


I was wondering if COP:Red would be a wise investment for the sideboard but I'm not so sure. Peace of Mind may just be a better option.

I run Story Circle. It has more applications than COP: Red. Some decks cannot handle a Story circle on the board. I think you should at least have 1 of either in the sideboard. More than 1, and you'll see serious diminishing returns. Peace of Mind, likewise, suffers from diminishing returns.

I think you really must have the 4th Leyline. That's the first card you have to add. I'd run 7 or 8 Leylines if I could. There are several matchups where I just really want to open with one in play.


Is the list you're running similar to what you've posted previously?

So far, both my GW and Mono White lists are the same as the last posts.


@ Choux


What's shocking me, is that your deck can be beaten by a deck with 1 emrakul and 59 mountains.

Turbofog can be beaten by that setup, also note that the Emrakul deck can be beaten by Turbofog as well (although, the odds aren't in Turbofog's favor). If I have 8 draw pieces in play (very common in the last turns of the game - my record is 14 draw engines), and Emrakul is in the remaining 7 cards of your library, the Emrakul deck will lose.

Sideboarding is really where we pickup a significant chance at beating Emrakul's anti-decking trigger. We can make it so that we can't be decked either, and we can remove Emrakul from the graveyard (in response to the trigger).

All that said, Emrakul decks make up a small percentage of the field. I'm not opposed to throwing the matchup. Obviously Turbofog is limited in which sorts of decks it can reasonably answer.


peace,
4eak

[Hof]

Whenever an opponent can play aggro-control against me, 1-for-1 my draw engines and lockpieces, while beating me down, I'm in a lot of trouble.

I couldn't agree more with you 4eak. In fact I would rather be paired against combo than any blue based aggro control.
But working on the deck is so much fun that I can't let it go just yet. I know you agree.

This is my current build:

Draw (16)
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Howling Mine
4 Font of Mythos
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Holistic Wisdom *

Protection (20)
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Orim's Chant
4 Peace Talks
4 Moment's Peace
2 Angel's Grace
2 Constant Mists

Mana (24)
10 Plains
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher *
SB: 4 False Peace
SB: 4 Silence
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 not sure

A few notes on some of the cards I use:

Holistic Wisdom. This has been great for getting multiple Orim's Chants back, among other tricks. Also, if it hits play it ensures that I dont lose by decking myself, since I can get Angel's Grace back and cast it multiple times, even through counters.

Vexing Shusher. Counterspells are the bane of this deck. I have tried Xantid Swarm, but it only gets you half way there because you also have to cast spells during opponent's turn (fog, chant). That is also why much of the usual anti-counter stuff in green e.g. City of Solitude doesn't work. Vexing Shusher is the only card I've found which consistently lets you bypass counters and still allow you to cast instant spells during their turn. Of course I'm counting on the opponent to sideboard out all their creature removal - and they should. Shouldn't they...?

[Darkenslight]

Hof, I see a distinct lack of Island Sanctuary in that list; I'm pretty sure that's flat-out wrong for Turbofog, as it both slows the amount you draw down and stops combat for the most part.

[Izor]

I really think that Isochron Scepter should be played in this deck. I'm curious why people don't want it?

I've tested the deck online, with 4 Scepter and 4 Orim's Chant and 4 Angel's Grace in the main deck. There are so few decks that can actually beat that.

Also, an active Scepter will always buy you enough time to establish enough draw engines and lock up the game entirely. I was running something like this:

22 Lands

4 Howling Mine
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Font of Mythos

4 Isochron Scepter
4 Conatant Mists
4 Moment's Peace
4 Orim's Chant
4 Angel's Grace
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Peace Talks


SB:
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Silence
2 Luminarch Ascension
3 Krosan Grip
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Not really fine-tuned, but it worked very well.

The Scepter was also terrific with Surgical Extraction against graveyard-based decks, because they usually don't give you the time to drop enough draw engines.

[Hof]

Hof, I see a distinct lack of Island Sanctuary in that list; I'm pretty sure that's flat-out wrong for Turbofog, as it both slows the amount you draw down and stops combat for the most part.

I am glad it works for you because it is such an iconic card and I really want to play it. The thing is I have tried it and found that most of the time it was not what I needed. There are lots of flyers around, and I need to stop every angle of attack. Also, it doesn't do anything unless I have a draw engine online, and I really need those extra cards. The anti-decking tech (skipping all draws) is nice but ultimately not needed in my deck.

[wert]

Maze of Ith?
Wouldn't it be a good fit too?

[Zoigothub]

What about one or two Arboria?

http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewCard_Popup.aspx?CardName=Arboria&Edition=LEG&Print=1

[Kich867]

I don't see the point of Arboria, we are doing absolutely nothing to stop them from playing things so it would never work, plus it's very mana intensive. On the flip side, if we're chanting them to get Arboria triggers off, then they can't attack us anyways due to Chant.

[Teknique]

I don't see the point of Arboria, we are doing absolutely nothing to stop them from playing things so it would never work, plus it's very mana intensive. On the flip side, if we're chanting them to get Arboria triggers off, then they can't attack us anyways due to Chant.

I believe you misread the card. Arboria says the player who didn't do anything can't be attacked, not that they can't attack. So you drop Arboria with your draw engines going, and just pass turns so they can't attack you.

[Kich867]

I believe you misread the card. Arboria says the player who didn't do anything can't be attacked, not that they can't attack. So you drop Arboria with your draw engines going, and just pass turns so they can't attack you.

Ah true I did. mmm.. probably better than moat for this deck, comes out pretty late though. Would be a sweet topdeck if shit hits the fan I guess.

When you have the mana to play this safely, you're in a winning position anyways.

[Barbed Blightning]

[B]@ Choux



Turbofog can be beaten by that setup, also note that the Emrakul deck can be beaten by Turbofog as well (although, the odds aren't in Turbofog's favor). If I have 8 draw pieces in play (very common in the last turns of the game - my record is 14 draw engines), and Emrakul is in the remaining 7 cards of your library, the Emrakul deck will lose.

Sideboarding is really where we pickup a significant chance at beating Emrakul's anti-decking trigger. We can make it so that we can't be decked either, and we can remove Emrakul from the graveyard (in response to the trigger).

All that said, Emrakul decks make up a small percentage of the field. I'm not opposed to throwing the matchup. Obviously Turbofog is limited in which sorts of decks it can reasonably answer.


peace,
4eak

Out of curiosity: what does the Sneak & Show matchup look like for this deck. I was considering making it, since I have the Savannahs and Heaths from my Mav build. Also, has anyone considered Intervention Pact? http://magiccards.info/fut/en/8.html

[4eak]

Sneak and Show is nearly unwinnable. Their permission alone is awful for us - any silverbullets we bring in are not going to resolve. If you did resolve a complete lock piece (not many of them), you could win. If they are really slow to get going, it is possible (but very unlikely) to chain Chant's and Peace Talks through permission. There are a few other cornercases, but this is still a crapshoot.

Also, do not play Savannah's in this deck. I originally had them in there, and I got blown out by wasteland too many times. I strongly prefer just basics and Heaths.


peace,
4eak

[Kich867]

Had an interesting few games with a friend of mine on cockatrice, he was testing out a berserk stompy list. It's pretty much unwinnable on his end, but he frequently went Xantid Swarm first which put me in an awkward position.

Island Sanctuary was dead against his list and I was too afraid of viridian zealots to drop a scepter-chant. So for the most important points in the game, with his very stocked hand, a single turn where I couldn't deal with his board I would lose.

We played something like 4 or 5 games, and with my list (-4x ethereal haze, +4x Moment of Silence) I won every game without dropping any lock pieces. Well, for the most part. There was two games where an Island Sanctuary held off the ground and Kor Haven held off the Xantid Swarm. This went on for two turns and I found enough gas to seal the game.

[zmattk]

I've just picked up this deck for fun and it's really not letting me down. It's an absolute blast to play. I've tried both mono white and GW and I'm still not sure what I prefer right now. Both have their upsides.

I do have a few questions for Kich and 4eak because you guys seem to have the most experience with this deck. First off what do you think the number of draw engines we need to play is? I started off in GW with 16 and mono white with 12 and I really feel like 16 was over doing it and sometimes I lacked a fog effect because of it. Also how do you like Anvil of Bogardan? I feel it is amazing when you get a few draw effects going but before that I never want to drop it. Finally, what are your thoughts on Angel's Grace? I like the idea of it but at times it may be too narrow. The games I actually need it, I feel it would be amazing, but other times I might just be wishing it was a fog instead.

Thanks for your replies. Hopefully I get more testing in with this and have some input to add in the future!

[Kich867]

I've just picked up this deck for fun and it's really not letting me down. It's an absolute blast to play. I've tried both mono white and GW and I'm still not sure what I prefer right now. Both have their upsides.

I do have a few questions for Kich and 4eak because you guys seem to have the most experience with this deck. First off what do you think the number of draw engines we need to play is? I started off in GW with 16 and mono white with 12 and I really feel like 16 was over doing it and sometimes I lacked a fog effect because of it. Also how do you like Anvil of Bogardan? I feel it is amazing when you get a few draw effects going but before that I never want to drop it. Finally, what are your thoughts on Angel's Grace? I like the idea of it but at times it may be too narrow. The games I actually need it, I feel it would be amazing, but other times I might just be wishing it was a fog instead.

Thanks for your replies. Hopefully I get more testing in with this and have some input to add in the future!

I run 12, I don't see a need to play more than that. Anvil of Bogardan is a boss, it lets you dig a little deeper which is often all you need and forces them to discard shit they probably don't want to. Angel's grace imo, sideboard card. I'm just not thrilled that you can't play it usefully until you're about to die.

[zmattk]

I've found out the Stoneblade matchup isn't that much fun. What are your approaches on it? I was however playing the GW version against it so all of my fogs could be hit by spell snare which is something I didn't like.

Angel's Grace so far has actually been kind of useful. It helped against stoneblade a few times and I can see I being good against storm decks if we don't have leyline out. I still am iffy on it though so I'll have to do more testing with it.

[Weekend Daddy]

I may have to build this deck

Wouldn't Serum Powder help in ensuring that you'd be able to get a Leyline/Mine/Anvil/etc?

And any thoughts on Archive Trap?

[Lejay]

Please don't build this deck.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

This deck is great! The idea on its own kept me laughing for about 20 minutes!

@4eak: I think your W/G list is the strongest around. The only thing I changed was -2 plains +2 flagstones

That's no disadvantage against wasteland and sometimes good with constant mists.

[Thomas_204]

Idk if this was posted already, but I found this list floating around online and I've played it to great sucess.



3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Elixir of Immortality
3 Horn of Greed
4 Exploration
4 Brainstorm
2 Constant Mists
4 Force of Will
2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
3 Daze
1 Upheaval
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Capture of Jingzhou
3 Walk the Aeons
1 Forest
6 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mishra's Factory

SB: 2 Damping Matrix
SB: 2 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Constant Mists
SB: 2 Nix
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Bribery
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Maze of Ith

[NokoKonozko]

So i've been testing this for awhile now and I definitely think that g/w is the way to go. Here's the list I run:


Draw Engines
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Howling Mine
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Temple Bell

Fogs
4 Moment's Peace
4 Orim's Chant
4 Tangle
4 Peace Talks
2 Angel's Grace
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Land
11 Forest
11 Plains


Sideboard
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Story Circle
4 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction


Most linear aggro decks don't have a chance and can't stop you from getting the engine going. SneakShow is a pain because of the Emrakuls but the sideboard pretty heavily hates those. Also, game 1 vs storm/burn can easily be a loss if you don't draw turn 0 Leyline, but post sideboard you can hold your own against their spells. This biggest problem I've had has been with heavier control decks like RUG Delver. They can just save up their counterspells to break through my wall of fogs.

[k2thej]

So i've been testing this for awhile now and I definitely think that g/w is the way to go. Here's the list I run:


Draw Engines
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Howling Mine
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Temple Bell

Fogs
4 Moment's Peace
4 Orim's Chant
4 Tangle
4 Peace Talks
2 Angel's Grace
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Land
11 Forest
11 Plains


Sideboard
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Story Circle
4 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction


Most linear aggro decks don't have a chance and can't stop you from getting the engine going. SneakShow is a pain because of the Emrakuls but the sideboard pretty heavily hates those. Also, game 1 vs storm/burn can easily be a loss if you don't draw turn 0 Leyline, but post sideboard you can hold your own against their spells. This biggest problem I've had has been with heavier control decks like RUG Delver. They can just save up their counterspells to break through my wall of fogs.

Why not use the following mana base instead so you can get the draw engine going a turn earlier:

4 Ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 savanna
4 windswept heath
2 forest
4 plains

[NokoKonozko]

Why not use the following mana base instead so you can get the draw engine going a turn earlier:

4 Ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 savanna
4 windswept heath
2 forest
4 plains


I'll start this out by being honest and say that makes the deck significantly more expensive and I don't have the means to get that.

But aside from budget restrictions, we have discussed the manabase a lot earlier in the thread and even if it can power out earlier draw engines, opening yourself up to wasteland and other mana denial effects is crippling for this deck.

[Hof]

The most Annoying deck of all time, now with Land Tax and Scroll Rack!

Land Tax and Constant Mists should work together nicely, I think?

[Lammina]

Hi everybody!

One question: how the GW version deal with emrakuls or progenitus shuffle effect? How win against it?

Cyah,

Lammina

[Darkenslight]

Hi everybody!

One question: how the GW version deal with emrakuls or progenitus shuffle effect? How win against it?

Cyah,

Lammina

You're milling through draw effects, rather than pur milling effects.

[Lammina]

You're milling through draw effects, rather than pur milling effects.

But with the anvil effect the opponent could discard emrakul right?

[k2thej]

But with the anvil effect the opponent could discard emrakul right?

Ya, espcially with decks that run multiple you will def need crypts or something.

[Freggle]

Couple thoughts. Never played it.

Since you are liable to deck yourself why not run Wheel of Sun and Moon?

As long as your adding that why not add the perma-ultra fog Energy Field for the combo? I've been running it to fair success in this deck. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23437-Developmental-Spreading-Illusions-An-Enchantress-Variant&p=654119#post654119)

..and as long as were talking combos why not run the colorless combo of Painter's Servant / Grindstone to just end games.

Or if your worried about the shuffle guys (like Emrakul) Leyline of the Void / Helm of Obedience?

...just some thoughts.

[Kilz88]

Ok guys, I am looking at playing this in a somewhat serious event in 2 days and here is the main deck I plan on running...4eak, I am looking at you for some input here. In the past we have shared many good ideas in regards to other decks and I respect your opinions on things (Affinity for example):


// Lands
9 [IN] Plains (2)
9 [P2] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Spells
4 [M11] Temple Bell
4 Howling Mine
4 [VI] Anvil of Bogardan
4 [M12] Rites of Flourishing

4 [VI] Peace Talks
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [OD] Moment's Peace
3 [MM] Moment of Silence
1 [SH] Constant Mists

4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
1 [B] Island Sanctuary
1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension


Ok, so let me explain some choices. First I will say our biggest problems/threats are Emrakul and Jin-Gitaxis/Iona. We don't care about griselbrand as much as you would think. Jin mind twisting us and Iona cutting us off white are very bad. This being said:
[B]
Peace Talks/Orim's Chant/Moment of Silence: Fogging is good but in the current metagame, stopping annihilator is better. These cards do the job against the creature decks and still allow us to hold off "The Aeons Torn".

1x Island Sanctuary: I am on the boat that says Delver is a card as well as most of the reanimator targets having flying so this card is not as stellar as it used to be. Having multiple is pointless but having 0 makes me sad. Against certain decks the card is a total blowout and you gotta have that chance in your deck. Also keep in mind our deck is different when it comes to 1 ofs. We draw a TON of cards and getting the 1 ofs is a lot easier than you would expect. I dont need to have 2 just to rip the second when I really just need 1 more fog. The only thing I might consider is cutting 1x Leyline for a second Island Sanct.

1x Luminarch Acension: I hate the idea of just admitting a "fold" to emrakul being in someone's deck game one. Yes the Sneak and Show match-up is probably our worst but why make it so we have to win 2 games in a row?

Lets look at my ideas for the board which are not quite set in stone yet:

SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction: This is a lock. Its our only chance against reanimator and it comes in against combo and Emrakul. Too good not to have but I will admit it does not actually get there as well as you would think against reanimator...I would like to find room for Karakas and/or some sort of Leyline of the Void type effect.

SB: 4 [M11] Silence: This is just for combo. Its all we got. Bring this and S. Extraction in and you should have 16 cards in your deck that beat them.

SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher OR SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip: Not sure what I like better here but they are both obviously combating counterbalance. Like it was said before, if they are a smart player they will try to keep a clique or something on top to prevent grip so that is awkward but at the same time they don't play a ton of 3 drops. Shusher is good because they are going to side out removal so he will stick and helps all your spells resolve really which allows you to play all the mines you want on your turn knowing the fog you plan to play WILL resolve. Unfortunately though Chalice of the Void can be a problem for us as well as other random artifact/enchantments (Solitary Confinement) so I think I will go with Grip. I almost want to play 4 to be honest.

The last 3 slots are interesting...Deed is scary but very underplayed. I would play karmic justice but I feel like it is pretty narrow and would rather play Pithing Needle in its place. My only other considerations would be Peacekeeper or something like Reverent Silence because I am pretty sure we just can't beat enchantress. Our only hope without it is to kill a confinement and then extract it... So If I had to fill those spots right it would probably be something like this:


// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [M11] Silence
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle OR 3 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence

Let me know what you guys think so I can kick some ass with the greatest deck of all time this weekend! :D

[Mr Miagi]

2-3 karakas main.. why not... I would perhaps also cut the fetches and play an emrakul as a win con perhaps and perhaps discard him and shufle the deck. I'm also a fan of 2 off Noxious revival.. sometimes when you draw cards and you miss the fog effect you can eb dead in the enxt swing.. or you can simply just return a countered or discarded card..

You could also simply run 3 or even 4 Solitary confinment and play a similar game as an Enchantress..

But sneak and show is still very unfavorable, but with enough needles, o rings/humilities and surgicals you might chant him that long to actually lock him up..

[Lammina]

I played this weekend with the GW version with enlightnet tutor pack in sideboard in a 30 people champ. Lost to reanimate (0-2), tezz affinity (0-2), punishing fire maverick (1-2), Threshold (0-2) and won against esperblade (2-0) making 1-4 in the tournament.

Some considerations:
- the deck loses against planeswalkwers if the leyline inst online;
- the deck needs a kill condition (luminarch for example), because is too much dangerous give too many draws to the opponent. Specially in the games 2-3 cause the draw engine helps the other side to find his sideboard hate cards;
- is AMAZING against aggro decks, but only against these ones;
- loses for counter decks cause they only need counter a few fog effects and hit some times and we are dead...;
- i dont play against storm decks, but in theory, i dont think the game 2-3 are so easy;
- I played after the champ with a sneak attack and the match is unfair for this deck: almost a 5-95 for them... A massacre cause they need only a good counter fog and attack one time...
- we are too dependent of leylines in so many games, and sometimes this is our unique protection (planeswalkwrs, storm combo, disruption; direct damage...) and most of the good decks have a answer for the leyline in maindeck, and if they do t have, for aure the answer will be in the sideboard and with the draw engine online they dont need worry cause WE put all the answers in their hands.

I will think a little more about the deck before put it aside...

Comments please!

Cyah,

Lammina

[Kilz88]

Hey Lammina,

So I will take each point at a time:

Planewalkers: I have needles in the board which will hopefully help against this.

Kill Condition: I have luminarch maindeck so that should help but I have considered playing one more in the board or something.

Decks with counterspells: If they are busy countering a lot of my fogs, hopefully that means they arent killing me as fast OR countering my mines. I will have to play more to see the outcome of these control mirror style matches but I do always consider Vexing Shusher in the board.

Storm: One paper, this really should be a good match-up for us...again more testing will be needed before we can say for sure.

Sneak Attack: We know this is our worst match-up but again I hope my style build with more "skip-fogs" should help along with the needles in the board.

Seems like you had a bad run but I would like to see your build before I say anymore. Thanks for the info though!!!

[Lammina]

Hey Lammina,

So I will take each point at a time:

Planewalkers: I have needles in the board which will hopefully help against this.

Kill Condition: I have luminarch maindeck so that should help but I have considered playing one more in the board or something.

Decks with counterspells: If they are busy countering a lot of my fogs, hopefully that means they arent killing me as fast OR countering my mines. I will have to play more to see the outcome of these control mirror style matches but I do always consider Vexing Shusher in the board.

Storm: One paper, this really should be a good match-up for us...again more testing will be needed before we can say for sure.

Sneak Attack: We know this is our worst match-up but again I hope my style build with more "skip-fogs" should help along with the needles in the board.

Seems like you had a bad run but I would like to see your build before I say anymore. Thanks for the info though!!!


Sorry for the delay!

My list:

Draw Engines
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Howling Mine
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Temple Bell

Fogs
4 Moment's Peace
4 Orim's Chant
4 Constant Mists
4 Peace Talks
2 Angel's Grace
2 Leyline of Sanctity

Land
11 Snow Covered Forest
11 Snow Covered Plains


Sideboard
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Story Circle
4 Silence
2 Leyline of Sanctity


Comments plz!

Cyah,

Lammina

[seeapoko]

Hey Lammina, first off, thanks for providing a deck list. However, if my math is correct you are missing two cards from the mb, which might they be?
Also, why (and this is probably answered and I just missed it) doesn't this deck run Isochron Scepter?

[Kich867]

Hey Lammina, first off, thanks for providing a deck list. However, if my math is correct you are missing two cards from the mb, which might they be?
Also, why (and this is probably answered and I just missed it) doesn't this deck run Isochron Scepter?

I personally run Scepter in my version of the deck. Scepter-Chant online is a near unlosable game-state if you're hitting your land drops.

The hardest part of this deck is surviving the first several turns before your draw engines keep you afloat. I wonder the use Land Tax + Mox Opals may do for the mana base given it's strictly basic lands.

I'm also of the opinion that if you aren't running Island Sanctuary you're doing it wrong. There's decks that literally can't beat that card once it resolves or at the very best have a -much- steeper hill to climb. I also ran something like 6-8 silence effects in my final version, counting potential damage loss on the next turn and went for a lot of Silence + Scepter/Chant or Silence + Scepter/Pollen Lullaby.

If I were to build the deck again, I would surely build it leaning more towards mono-white enchantment control. Luminarch Ascension is absurdly, absurdly good in this deck. Humility, Enlightened Tutor, these are all useful cards.

[yespuhyren]

Island Sanctuary seems pretty freaking sweet in a deck with that much card draw, and can pretty much moat every turn. It also means you can’t deck out, yet can stay in play forever unlike Solitary, as there is no cost to keeping it. Just an optional skipping of a draw.

I play it as a 1 of in my Legacy Parfait deck, and it’s just brutal

[Cybey]

Why not a single Psychosis Crawler as extra kill?
Except that it is removable...

[kombatkiwi]

Is there any reason to play this (other than the lulz) over Enchantress or Lands?

[Windux]

Is there any reason to play this (other than the lulz) over Enchantress or Lands?

It's more annoying ?