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warfordium
12-01-2011, 03:53 AM
(preamble: mods, i feel that this deck is different enough from the RUG build and the UR Aggro thread that it deserves its own thread. if you disagree, feel free to re-classify as you see fit)

so, i've been trying to find a blue deck. having spent my first 6 months back as a Magic player utterly spoiled by a deck running Bobs, Hymns, Thoughtseize, Top, and Swords to Plowshares, and Stoneforge Mystic (maximum card advantage, maximum information, the cheapest spot removal, and the closest card to Tinker we've ever seen), i decided it was time to play something more challenging, yet unique, with Blue cards—and i think i've found it.

props to Bryant Cook for his decklist (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/725/cook’s-kitchen-changing-tempo) which got me working on it:


Grixis Tempo (Revenge of the Sith)
Creatures:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

Instants/Sorceries:

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Dismember / Go for the Throat
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Mental Note
4 Hymn to Tourach

Non-Basic Lands:
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives


so i took the list to our weekly legacy night... it was not quite a disaster, but the list needed work to be viable in my meta. first to go was Hymn to Tourach (i could never ever get to double black), followed shortly by Tombstalker (lots of Jace and Swords to Plowshares). that let me ditch Mental Note and bring in Vendilion Clique. here's a refined list i ran this past week to a 3-1 second place finish (beating Elves, Pyromancer Ascension, and Goblins) at our monthly 12-man Legacy tournament, netting myself a Jitte for my troubles:

Grixis Tempo
Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Dark Confidant

Instants and Sorceries (28)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Fire/Ice
2 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
2 Dismember

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Island

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
2 Submerge
2 Perish
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce

not satisfied with beating those decks, i decided to face off against that RUG build everyone is losing their shit over. sdematt and i rumbled 10 times preboard, and it was pretty even. stiflenaught was also a cakewalk. the main stumbling block at the moment seems to be the Knight of the Reliquary end of Maverick/Bant/Rock (pre-board, at least), and counterbalance/heavy control variants.

so, i'm going to devote myself to playing this deck for the forseeable and would love input and critique from the community, particularly on/of my variation on the list—i think the Grixis variant is capable of being as good as, if not better than, the RUG version. i'll be cockatrice playtesting extensively over the Christmas break (under the same username, PM me if you want to work on the deck), and gauntlet testing once my team is out of exams; matchup analysis will follow in due course.

for now, here's my rationale behind the modifications i made to the deck:

3 Grim Lavamancer: this card is so good right now. it can nuke opposing heirarchs, take control of the mirror (provided yours lives and goes active first), and give late game reach. it singlehandedly defeats SFM, goblins, elves, and merfolk.

0 Tombstalker: not worth nuking a good chunk of your yard for a vanilla beater which is going to get removed straight away. i'd rather fuel Grim and keep Snapcaster active.

2 Vendilion Clique: beats Spell Snare, get you information and eats spot removal before Bob can. cycles Knight of the Reliquary, or Jace. beats for 3 when it sticks. its a great clock, and handy disruption at the point in the game when tempo decks start to wobble. worth every penny of the $30 price tag.

2 Fire/Ice: being able to split the 2 damage, at instant speed, is key; take out two x/1 creatures or eke out that little bit of extra value if there's only one to target. i felt the alternative was Chain Lightning and i'm against sorcery speed burn. tapping a resolved tarmogoyf, knight, or maze of ith with a bonus cantrip isn't the worst either. i'm really hoping to fit in the last 2 spell snares somehow, and this might be the slot that is sacrificed.

2 Dismember: the ability to pay only 1 (generic) mana gives this the nod over Go for the Throat. if this deck ever gets to the late game, your manabase is going to come under attack (my opponents tend to aggressively take me off red), so if you really need to flash it back, the difference can matter. Ghastly Demise is probably superior in the face of Knight of the Reliquary, but would make your fetching more difficult when staring down opposing Wastelands (despite this, i'm going to switch to Ghastly, given the inherent difficulties the deck has with KotR).

2 Dark Confidant / 2 Ponder: i wanted black over green for Dark Confidant, instant speed spot removal, and Thoughtseize plus perish out of the board. with 4 Bobs the instant count for Delver drops to 26—which is too low, i think. Ponder is there to get back towards 30 instants while keeping gas in the tank.

Island, Mountain: I'm of the school that you need to be able to fetch basics—Island so that you can always brainstorm or stifle, Mountain so you can always bolt or activate Grim Lavamancer. Mountain is my probability-confounding 61st card. i'm okay with that.

2 Snapcaster Mage: I'd love to fit a third, since i'm running 20 lands, but have already dropped to 3 Dazes, and i'm loathe to cut down to 3 Stifles.

Sideboard:
Extirpate vs. Surgical Extraction: well, i don't own Surgical Extractions—yet. i think Snapcaster Mage tips this one to making Surgical Extraction more valuable—control is not quite good enough right now to need the uncounterability.

Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce are the loosest slots—as good as they can be against combo, i have no dedicated hate for equipment/other artifacts, and probably not enough for the graveyard. Firespout might be alright as well.

warfordium
12-01-2011, 03:54 AM
reserved.

kiblast
12-01-2011, 07:15 AM
We already have a thread for this deck:

Urban fish / Confidant control (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20968-Deck-UBr-Confidant-Control&p=568856&viewfull=1#post568856)

Basically cut Missteps for 2 Fire ice and 2 Snapcaster and you're done.

death
12-01-2011, 09:48 AM
Grixis Tempo sounds like a new name brand for Ubr-based tempo but lists have been around for quite some time now, it's just that not a lot of players have been netdecking them lately.

The FaeStalker build I'm testing is more potent than your list in the opening post, it runs 5/5 flyers that can deal with Batterskull and opposing Insectile Abberations. The biggest difference between the lists now is of course the printing of Delver of Secrets has made Bitterblossom extinct. But the skeleton of the deck and the strategy haven't changed though.


U/B/r Stalker: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22637-U-B-r-Stalker&highlight=fae+stalker

Tempo Faeries: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19582-Deck-Tempo-Faeries&highlight=faestalker

FaeStalker: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Faestalker&format=Legacy

troopatroop
12-01-2011, 10:38 AM
You know why you couldn't get double black? Because the list played 3 fucking Volcanic Island. Hymn is awesome, There should be 1 Volcanic.

warfordium
12-01-2011, 03:08 PM
The FaeStalker build I'm testing is more potent than your list in the opening post, it runs 5/5 flyers that can deal with Batterskull and opposing Insectile Abberations. The biggest difference between the lists now is of course the printing of Delver of Secrets has made Bitterblossom extinct. But the skeleton of the deck and the strategy haven't changed though.

thats funny, i was playing the Tempo Faeries list for about 6 weeks post-misstep and I couldn't get it to work. i kept getting blown out by bounced or removed Tombstalkers and i found Bitterblossom to be far too slow. i never wanted to put Bitterblossom down before turn 4 or so, and i couldnt get in (for a whopping 1, though it was sometimes Jitte-equipped) before turn 6. I liked the idea of the deck but i'm facing a lot of tempo, maverick/rock/bant, and goblins in my meta. the deck couldnt keep up.

yadda
02-08-2012, 01:34 AM
I am currently testing a similar deck to the opening post except i don't think that stifle/wasteland is the way to go.

i was playing the UR delver snapcaster deck in various forms but i found that while they all tend to do certain things really well none of them are quite what i'm looking for from an aggro control standpoint. I started thinking to myself, what would give this deck the extra one or two cards it seems to need per game to put opponents away? the answer kind of hit me in the face: dark confidant. the biggest problem with bob based aggro control decks though is that when you don't draw a bob you tend to not have any other source of card advantage. thus i decided i would shove both bob and standstill into the current snapcaster shell and see what happened. results have been initially promising, although i havn't had the opportunity to test against maverick.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [CMD] Island (4)
3 [R] Underground Sea
3 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [DM] Mountain (2)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
2 [M12] Ponder
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [ARE] Duress
SB: 2 [M12] Doom Blade
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [FBP] Surgical Extraction


from my initial testing i quickly realized that what this deck really wants to do is stick its t2 play, and as such force, daze, and thoughtseize are the three best cards available to fill that role while also providing great utility in other scenarios.

the sideboard is there to let you play the control in matchups where that is your best option, other snapcaster decks, combo, reanimator, etc etc. perish is there because i am very worried about maverick and the card has great utility in the format. while i never really expect to snap it that would be pretty cool too.

thoughtseize is a house with snapcaster. i have opened on thoughtseize and followed it up with another at critical points several times.

i would like to find room for fire/ice, the card is just great, right now and always.

and since the jittes in the board probably look a little weird here ill give a short explanation: they are really only for other snapcaster/delver decks and merfolk. two matchups i think are important in any expected competitive meta and decks against which jitte is awesome for obvious reasons. i doubt they are good enough against maverick to warrant siding in but only testing will tell.

Hanni
02-09-2012, 03:01 PM
I really like the color combination of Grixis, especially right now. It's just overall better than both Team America and Canadian Thresh, if you ask me.

Delver, Tombstalker, and Clique. That's the most awesome tempo beatdown package the format has had to date. They are aggressively costed (great p/t), and they all have flying. That means no more groundlocks where said tempo deck can't finish the opponent off in time before they stabalize. That means creature removal is a lot less necessary.

Following through with my last statement, the only time the deck would eally need removal would be against aggro decks that can race. In most cases, that means smaller dudes. Burn is an awesome form of creature removal in a deck that really doesn't need any, because it can go to the dome and quicken the clock. Plus, red and black offer some amazing sideboard options like Firespout and Perish if necessary.

I'll post my list later when I get a chance.

miko
02-09-2012, 04:38 PM
Since they are all flying I guess that Jitte is a really good card in that deck. Just give it a try.
The only card that is missing in this deck is Ooze. It is really very good in today's meta.

troopatroop
02-09-2012, 06:56 PM
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Snuff Out
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp

?

This is straight U/B, although I can see the merits of Firespout! and/or Lightning Bolt.
Breaks the Maverick matchup wide open. Whatabout Perish?

2100 posts. Woot xD

oRen
02-09-2012, 08:10 PM
To me there seem to be 2 good approaches on the deck. One the one side not quite the tempo deck with Confidant/Snapcaster/Lavamancer(/Clique) and on the other a real tempo deck with Tombstalker/Clique. Tombstalker/Lavamancer/Snapcaster is IMO never going to work properly/constantly even with Mental Note (which is a pretty bad card by itself).

Since I am more looking into playing a real tempo deck I like the Tombstalker/Clique version better. Obviously the other version generates a lot more card advantage with every turn passing by but it looks like a deck which tries to accomplish to much considering you are playing Snapcaster with not that many lands including Wastelands, you play Lavamancer + Snapcaster and that you will be most likely leaking a really fast clock like Tombstalker.

I tooled around with the deck some days ago but did not have the time to completely figure things out - and yet it was a lot of fun to play on MWS. Terminate seems to be a bit underrated when I look at all those fancy removal splits ...

// Lands
1 [A] Badlands
3 [A] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Island (1)
1 [A] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [NE] Daze
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [PS] Terminate
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate (maybe Extraction or Leyline)
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout

LMK know what you think ... also I am really looking forward to Hannis list!

Hanni
02-09-2012, 08:48 PM
Well, I'm working on a few different builds right now. I'm not quite sure if I like Hymn more, or if I like more burn more. Here's the burn heavy version:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Badlands
1 [UNH] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
SB: 3 [ARC] Terminate
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 3 [CMD] Firespout
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

I'm also playtesting with:

-1 Ponder, -3 Chain Lightning, +4 Hymn.

and

-1 Ponder, -4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Chain Lightning, +4 Thoughtseize, +4 Hymn, straight U/B manabase.

The burn heavy list is very aggressive, and so far I'm diggin it the most.

oRen
02-10-2012, 01:36 PM
I'm not quite sure if I like Hymn more, or if I like more burn more.

My question would be why you like Hymn at all in a very tempo orientated deck?

I really hated it when people started to replace the Sinkholes with Hymns in the original TA with the argument "dude its 2 for 1 and 2 for 1 is never bad hurrdurr". From my point of view the card is only somewhat reasonable when you fail to screw your opponent which seems like one of the main plans you are trying to accomplish most of the games. When this plans works on the other side you let your opponent discard dead hand cards while losing most likely one of your own turns.

kingsey
02-10-2012, 11:29 PM
Great to see this thread with such good players as hanni and oren. I made this post awhile ago...
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22877-UBr-tempo&highlight=

The creature base is amazing. Tombstalker is a beast. The fact we can firespout the ground out of the board and not be effected is totally boss right now. I'm also glad to see other people on terminate's bandwagon. It doesnt care it just kills.:laugh:

Currently I'm running

4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Island
4 Stifle
4 Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Tombstalker
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
1 Badlands
3 Terminate

To oRen.. I'm with hanni as i've always enjoyed Hymn since it was printed. Tonight in testing I stifled his first fetch, hymned away a land then turn 3 wasted his dual. It was a blow out. I also see your running a single Jitte. My first list ran two and it was always good. I've cut it at the moment, but may try and squeeze it back in. How often to you find it usefull?

To Hanni, I like the idea of running 4 bolts and 3 chain lightnings. Adds mad reach and could steal games. Reminds me of old red death lists. How does that list deal with cards like Knight of the reliquary? Also what made you pick peirce over snare?

Hanni
02-11-2012, 04:49 PM
My question would be why you like Hymn at all in a very tempo orientated deck?


Because Hymn improves the tempo gameplan by reducing the opponent's resources. It's not so much about card advantage as much as it is about disrupting their gameplan. If it slows down their development (loss of a land, creature, removal, whatever), then it's good for the tempo gameplan. That's why I like Hymn.


How does that list deal with cards like Knight of the reliquary? Also what made you pick peirce over snare?

Basically, just hope to race the Knight. He's usually not massive until midgame, and hopefully my opponent will be dead by then. Postboard, Perish deals with Knight, and there is also Terminate if necessary.

kingsey
02-12-2012, 12:00 AM
Because Hymn improves the tempo gameplan by reducing the opponent's resources. It's not so much about card advantage as much as it is about disrupting their gameplan. If it slows down their development (loss of a land, creature, removal, whatever), then it's good for the tempo gameplan. That's why I like Hymn.




Basically, just hope to race the Knight. He's usually not massive until midgame, and hopefully my opponent will be dead by then. Postboard, Perish deals with Knight, and there is also Terminate if necessary.

Try cutting the chains for 3 terminates you'll be amazed.:cool:

Also I agree Hymn is the main reason to run black. Its amazing. In mutliples its auto win

yadda
02-12-2012, 01:50 AM
i tend not to agree that hymn is the main reason to run black. In my opinion Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize are both better/more viable reasons to run black.

kingsey
02-12-2012, 11:00 AM
i tend not to agree that hymn is the main reason to run black. In my opinion Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize are both better/more viable reasons to run black.

With both force of will and tombstalker we couldn't run Bob. I've played both of those cards in a bug build but kept coming back to this list.

Hanni
02-12-2012, 11:07 AM
Also what made you pick peirce over snare?

Considering that I'm not really worried about creatures, Spell Pierce is just overall alot better at countering spells. The few creatures that are bothersome are bolt-able (Confidant, SFM, etc), and Spell Pierce hits a much wider range of spells. With Stifle/Waste limiting the opponents mana, Spell Pierce is typically a hardcounter for 1. It's ability to hit Swords to Plowshares early game is really good at maintaining pressure.


Try cutting the chains for 3 terminates you'll be amazed.

In most cases, I'd rather just race the Knight. He doesn't grow large and scary until midgame, and this deck aims to win before that happens. I've been liking the 7 bolts maindeck so far.

yutang
03-01-2012, 07:51 PM
Drawing upon the template of Eric English's RUG Next Level Thresh, I came up with this:

Basically, Tombstalkers and Delvers replace the Goyfs and Snapcasters which increases the aggro capabilities and the explosive power of the deck.

Tying in with that, I replaced the NLT suite of 2 Counterspell, 1 Fire/Ice and Sylvan Library for 4 Daze. I'm still unsure about these slots though.

Made a better sideboard against Maverick and green aggro decks.

I'm still worried about BB requirements for Tombstalker though. Another problem would be sideboarding against enchantment/artifact heavy decks due to the colours I am in.

3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Preordain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Submerge
1 Deathmark
1 Perish
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Smash to Smithereens
2 Spell Pierce
1 Darkblast
1 Massacre
1 Hibernation

Edit: Had a chat about the list with a friend and suggested the removal of Snapcaster means less MD removal. Decided to switch the 4 Dazes for 4 Chain Lightnings.

I also want to find SB space for a Shattering Spree or artifact hate

Qweerios
05-16-2013, 03:12 PM
Has anybody tried this deck since Deathrite Shaman? It transitions into Clique very smoothly and offers additional reach. A player at my LGS has had a lot of success lately with a Grixis tempo build and managed to score several first place finishes even going through Nic Fit. Considering Grim Lavamancer is a house right now and that he competes with Tombstalker for the GY, I made the following list:


Creatures (13)
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Vendilion Clique

Spells (28)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice
2 Spell Pierce

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Snuff Out
2 Submerge
1 Divert
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Umezawa's Jitte


If I were to go for the Tombstalker route, I would probably drop 1 Clique and 2 Lavamancers for a 20th land and 2nd Tombstalkers. As it is now, every proactive threat costs 1 mana to play. The deck plays in a reactive fashion with leftover mana being converted to damage at the end of turn. Compared to RUG, this little deck is more tempo oriented but applies less pressure. However, it does provide much more reach and trading green for black is a clear upgrade in terms of sideboard options. What do you guys think?

Amazing Larry
05-16-2013, 05:05 PM
I've been running a Grixis Tempo build lately. Though it's really rather a R/Ub burn build rather than a tempo deck with Wasteland. Bob has been great. When he sticks, he just wins (as usual) and helps prevent the deck from running out of gas.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta

The sideboard has been kinda tricky, I've run stuff like 3-4 Submerge, 2-3 Surgical Extractions, 2-3 Pyroblasts, 1-2 Hydroblasts, 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex, 2-3 Smash to Smithereens, and maybe some extra discard like Duress. This deck just stomps the unfair decks and blue decks, but has some trouble with Maverick, Jund and tribal strategies. So far it's been very fun to play. I'm wondering about maybe dropping the Lavamancers to the board and putting x4 Goblin Guides in but Lavamancer is good against some of the creature decks that give me trouble. I just feel that Guide might speed the deck up a bit. I shall continue testing.