Kuldotha Forgemaster and Blightsteel Colossus

[andy]

Suppose I have Kuldotha Forgemaster and Blightsteel Colossus in play, both untapped and under my control since the beginning of the turn. My opponent uses some targeted removal (say, Swords to Plowshares), announcing the Blightsteel Colossus as the target. I have two questions:

1) If I use Kuldotha Forgemaster's ability, sacrificing the Blightsteel Colossus (therefore shuffling it back into my deck), in order to find this same Blightsteel Colossus? I think the answer is yes. The Blightsteel Colossus replacement effect triggers on payment of the Kuldotha Forgemaster activated ability, so I think the shuffle effect is on the stack above the search effect. (Follow-up question: if the Blightsteel Colossus were sacrificed as part of the effect, rather than the payment, would it be back in the library in time to find it?)

2) Supposing my explanation in (1) is correct, is the new Blightsteel Colossus a new entity in the battlefield? That is, is Swords to Plowshares countered because its original target has become illegal? I'm less sure about this one, but I would say the Swords to Plowshares gets countered. If I used Kuldotha Forgemaster's ability to find some other artifact, even a creature, the Swords cannot change target. I don't think it should matter that I've chosen to search for the exact same card. For example, if it did matter, then what should happen if I run multiple copies of Blightsteel Colossus and choose a different one with the Kuldotha ability? If the Swords to Plowshares target were truly linked with the card (and not with the particular instance of the card which was in play at the time it was cast), then I would have to demonstrate to my opponent that I have multiple copies of Blightsteel in my deck in order to verifiably declare the new one as an illegal target. This seems incorrect to me.

Thanks in advance.

[Esper3k]

You are correct on both. Just like the Natural Order / Progenitus trick, you can Forgemaster sacrifice a Blightsteel to get the same one back.

The game also sees it as a new object (once an object changes zones, the game thinks it's a new one), so any spells on the stack targetting it would be countered on resolution.

[andy]

Great, thanks. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions. I've been out of the game for about 7 years, so I've got a load of new cards/rules/keywords to learn.

Out of curiosity, why would you Natural Order a Progenitus? Just for a free shuffle? Or is there some relevant combo that uses this?

[GGoober]

You can Natural Order Progenitus to get Progenitus back again. This situation comes out rarely but is relevant sometimes. It's often referred to as 'poor-man's vigilance' if you are in a situation where you want to attack but still be able to block off a lethal attack for your lethal swing next turn.

[Sigar]

@Malchar

No he is not. He is referring to the fact that you can sacrifice Progenitus as a part of casting Natural Order, shuffle it into your library and find the same one with Natural Order when it resolves. This gives you an untapped Progenitus if you attacked with it for example.

[darksorinbrother]

My brother and I have been arguing about this combo. He thinks he can counter the blightsteel coming out by Kuldotha Forgemaster's ability. I have read the rules and Blightsteel isnt on the stack, and only spells on the stack can be countered. Who is right?

[Malchar]

You're correct. You can't counter something if it's being put directly onto the battlefield.