[Article] The Problem With Legacy

[Kuma]

Legacy wouldn’t be Legacy without discussions about what should be banned. Said discussions are a favorite pastime of many a Legacy player while others have grown tired of them. Right now, Brainstorm is the card garnering the most ban discussion. Those in favor of the ban argue that Brainstorm is the strongest card in Legacy and that the farther you go in tournaments, the higher the percent of Brainstorm decks. In fact, since Mental Misstep was banned, 100% of decks making the top two of the StarCityGames Opens have run four Brainstorms. Those against the ban argue that six tournaments is too small a sample size to make bans, and that it’s newer cards like Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage that are responsible for the upswing in Brainstorm decks. If anything, they say, it’s one of those two cards that should go.

Both sides of the argument are wrong. Brainstorm is not the problem with Legacy. Brainstorm is a symptom. Likewise, Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage are not the problem with Legacy, they are a symptom. There is a problem in Legacy that shows up in higher percentages of top 16’s than any card yet mentioned in this article. This problem is the real reason for the disturbing trend we’re seeing for Brainstorm.
Here’s a graph showing the percentage of SCG top 16 penetration of Brainstorm compared to the real problem. The data is from the six SCG opens since Mental Misstep was banned.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/KumaTheBear/ArticleGraph.jpg

What card could I be talking about? It’s not Force of Will. Nobody, except for one infamous player, believes that banning Force of Will would lead to a better, healthier Legacy. It’s actually not one card I’m talking about; it’s ten different cards. The problem is the ten original dual lands. There’s no arguing with the data. The ten dual lands are pervasive, format-altering, presences that need to go to preserve diversity. Either you’re playing with dual lands, or you’re not playing to win.

Everything that has been said about banning Brainstorm can be said doubly about the dual lands. Dual lands are an absolute no-brainer when it comes to deck design. Even with Wasteland, Back to Basics, and Blood Moon everywhere, dual lands are the obvious best strategy in the format. There’s precious little drawback to playing with dual lands. They let you run the best cards in the game from multiple colors effortlessly. It’s the dual lands that are responsible for the prevalence of fetchlands. Without dual lands to fetch, the fetchlands become less powerful. The reason Brainstorm is so powerful is the fetchlands. The reason Delver of Secrets is so powerful is Brainstorm. Take out the dual lands and everything falls into place.

You could argue that shocklands will just replace the duals, but the 3 damage from fetching an untapped shockland might be enough to mitigate some of the advantage. If shocklands replace dual lands in similar numbers, ban them too. Once that’s done, there’s no clear best set of dual lands in the format. Deckbuilders would have to carefully consider their manabases and choose lands that best fit their strategy. We might even see some viable mono-colored decks return to the format.

Not only would banning dual lands increase thought in deckbuilding and open new viable strategies in Legacy, it would remove the greatest barrier of entry to the format. The days of $600 mana bases would be over. Wizards could ensure that no one is priced out of the format by removing the biggest Reserved List offenders. Thousands of new people would be able to devote their time and effort to Legacy. Gone would be the eight-man local events where one guy is running a tiered deck against a bunch of budget garbage. The format would thrive like never before.

What’s that? You say you’d hate Legacy if the dual lands were banned? Why is that? Aren’t dual lands clearly warping the format to the point where they reduce diversity? Don’t they price certain people out of the format? They clearly reduce the amount of thought that goes into deckbuilding. Why keep around cards that do these things?

It's simple. The players enjoy playing with those cards and would enjoy Legacy more with dual lands than without. We’re seeing more and more people play Legacy than ever before, despite the “problems” caused by Brainstorm and its cohorts. While Brainstorm may be the strongest, most played card in Legacy, it is played in a host of archetypes. In the six SCG Opens since Mental Misstep was banned, eight different deck archetypes running Brainstorm made top four. As you move down the standings, that number exponentially increases. Clearly we have a diverse format even though people aren’t done figuring out how to attack Brainstorm, Delver of Secrets, and Snapcaster Mage.

There are certain iconic cards that make Legacy what it is. Dual lands are the most obvious example. If you want an eternal format without duals, Force of Will, Wasteland, and Brainstorm, you can play Modern. If you want a format that you can play for pennies, consider Pauper. Most people play Legacy precisely because they can play dual lands, Brainstorms, Force of Wills, Dark Rituals, Lion’s Eye Diamonds and Wastelands. A poll on The Source shows that around 80% of serious Legacy players want Brainstorm to remain legal. If you’re in that 20% that want a ban, maybe Legacy isn’t your format. With the amount of diversity present when all these cards legal, why alienate the format’s strongest supporters? Why turn Legacy into a glorified Modern or Vintage, two formats that are far less popular than Legacy?

Brainstorm is an iconic Magic card that is a great tester of skill. Perhaps the reason it wins so many tournaments is that it lets strong players better leverage their skill over lesser players. It has also been posited that SCG’s policy of allowing top 8 players to see their opponents’ decklists favors Brainstorm decks by allowing their pilots to make more educated decisions with the card. More than anything, Legacy players want the card to remain legal in a diverse format. That’s the best reason not to make a ban.

[Nonex]

While I find this theory quite curious and interesting and will gladly follow this thread's evolution, I don't see how mana bases have any influence on nonblue decks having hard times making top 8. Being 4:00 am doesn't help me either.

[TsumiBand]

I feel like an "I see what you did there" is in order.

I can't tell if you're seriously advocating a ban on dual lands - which truly, show up in more decks and enable more of the shenanigans in the format than virtually any other card in existence - or trying to point out the holes in the Brainstorm argument?


I don't see how mana bases have any influence on nonblue decks having hard times making top 8. Being 4:00 am doesn't help me either.

A ban on good duals forces everyone to play more honestly. Brainstorm > Force on the play means the control player is untapping on the second turn at 16 with 4 cards in hand. If it's game one you're trying to decide whether or not you're interested in Fireblasting yourself just to hit a must-counter turn 1 drop. This decision isn't nearly so difficult right now.

[Esper3k]

Manabases are clearly overpowered. I think we should go a step further in fixing the problem and just ban all lands. Can't even counter the damn things!

[thefringthing]

The fetchdual manabase (with few mana artifacts) is what really distinguishes Legacy from other formats.

[Octopusman]

It's clearly, as you said, that duals are iconic and this is why they remain legal.
This emphasizes that there is subjectivity when considering what is iconic, what is not, and what should be legal in the format.

In all seriousness, I feel the DCI should make their methods public.
The only problem with saying that certain cards are "protected" is that someday you may need to change your mind. It's better to have that flexibility.

Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. A heroin addict may choose to shoot up even though they know it may damage their health. A Legacy player may demand to Brainstorm off of an Underground Sea even though there are fewer and fewer players who can buy into the format. Time to shoot up some Tundras! *launches Open Office to tune latest deck*

[Beatusnox]

Part of what would worry me if this nightmarish vision you have depicted would come true is that, the few mono-colored decks that already exist that are on the cusp of being a powerhouse would break out so to speak and become the newest 'must go' offenders.

[Intet's Attendant]

The problem is not actually the dual lands themselves, but the fetchlands. They are responsible for so many things: fixing your mana extremely well, shuffling your library for brainstorm, thinning out lands from your deck so you draw into live cards, allowing you to splash an extra color very easily, fetching basics vs wateland/blood moon, pumping Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary.

Fetchlands changed the face of legacy forever, and they are the biggest culprit. They currently pose the same problem in modern, too.

[Pippin]

Legacy has no real problems. Except maybe too much copy-paste latest SCG top 8 deck going

[lordofthepit]

Dual lands and fetchlands are a defining feature of the Legacy format, just as Sol Ring, Moxes, and Black Lotus are a defining feature of Vintage. Are these lands/mana accelerants significantly better than everything else printed? Yes, but that doesn't mean they need to go.

I hate to say it, but this is one case where "if you don't like it, try Modern" applies. I may wish to play Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Will in a format without Power 9, but it would be irrational to ask Wizards to warp an already existing format with clearly defined staples around my personal wishes. Similarly, it would not make sense to ban dual lands and fetchlands to accommodate the few players that want to play with old cards in a format without such an easily splashable manabase.

On another note, I do not think it's entirely unreasonable that roughly 85% of all Top 16 decks run dual lands, considering there are ten such lands, each of which are among the most played cards in the format. You can still viably play a mono-colored (or a rainbow-colored) strategy in this format, just that there are fewer such competitive decks that meet those criteria. Contrast that with Vintage, where it is impossible to play a deck that does not require Power 9 (unless Dredge decks don't run them in that format, I wouldn't know).

[Ahab]

Interesting ideas. But think about the real consequences: Let's take tempo decks. Without the power to consistently play T1 Plow/Snare/Daze, or any threat, they would just die to sick 1 CMC cards. Think about Elves, Mother of Runes, Goblin Guide,...
Multicolored decks are Lvl 100 Mewtwos, monocolored decks are Lvl 80 Mews. If you turn the former into your average 10-year olds awesomsauce Lvl 60 Blastoise, guess what's going to happen.

[Kich867]

Interesting ideas. But think about the real consequences: Let's take tempo decks. Without the power to consistently play T1 Plow/Snare/Daze, or any threat, they would just die to sick 1 CMC cards. Think about Elves, Mother of Runes, Goblin Guide,...
Multicolored decks are Lvl 100 Mewtwos, monocolored decks are Lvl 80 Mews. If you turn the former into your average 10-year olds awesomsauce Lvl 60 Blastoise, guess what's going to happen.

..Something..will get hydro pumped? :cry:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ten cards are a lot like one card if you're really bad math and, by extension, logic.

[Gui]

There's a better way to solve the problem than banning the dual lands. It's by printing better nonbasic hate. Once upon a time when skyshroud elite was a threat...

There is some nonbasic hate, but nobody cares, because they are so bad, requiring you to roll with only one color by definition. And everyone uses wasteland, people learned how to fight it.

There's also another way, which is printing good cards that are hard to splash. As of right now, you gain three times the advantage for playing multi colored cards, because they are easier to play with the current manabases, and stronger than the monocolored options. And you get to play all the options within the colors.

[Final Fortune]

I feel like this articule is just a well written troll to show how banning discussions as a whole have become completely retarded.

[Henrik]

The problem with legacy is clearly that the player base is totally unable to take a hint!!
I mean jeezes christ people, come on.

Fun read. Naturally, I agree.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm in the camp of 'don't ban a card unless it is unstoppable'. I didn't see Mystical Tutor, Survival, or even Mental Misstep as unstoppable...just really good.

I'm a long-time casual magic junky. Not neccessarily multi-player or EDH, just casual/budget decks that are fun to play. If you want a format where there isn't Brainstorm, Force of Will, dual lands, Wasteland, etc...make some house rules and play some fun kitchen-table magic. I say that as a lead in to my next statement...

This is competitive magic we're talking about here. That means only the best is going to be played, regardless of how many cards are printed. I would say that if you don't like Brainstorm (et al) or can't figure out a way to beat the decks that play it, then I would suggest that you really don't like competitive magic. When it comes to serious competition, the 'everyone wins and everyone gets a trophy' mentality is absent for a reason...it's serious competition.

I say leave the dual lands alone, leave brainstorm alone, let the kiddos have their format-defining cards and let the mayhem ensue...and when the dust settles (and it will) there will be top decks and top players...because that's what competitive gaming is about.

[DrJones]

Actually, there's a blue card with a higher Top 8 penetration than Brainstorm. If you want to see how legacy Top 8s would look like without it, all you need to do is log in Magic Online. :cool:

What I haven't seen yet, is the lone G/W Maverick deck that sometimes gets to make Top 8 advancing further to Top 4, when it should, in theory, beat all those blue decks that plague the Top places at tournaments.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Good show, this is a fair comparison to draw; and a good troll.

Duals are in every top 8! They allow you to do broken things with fetches! Banhammer them to hell I say!

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

I'm in the camp of 'don't ban a card unless it is unstoppable'. I didn't see Mystical Tutor, Survival, or even Mental Misstep as unstoppable...just really good.

I'm a long-time casual magic junky. Not neccessarily multi-player or EDH, just casual/budget decks that are fun to play. If you want a format where there isn't Brainstorm, Force of Will, dual lands, Wasteland, etc...make some house rules and play some fun kitchen-table magic. I say that as a lead in to my next statement...

This is competitive magic we're talking about here. That means only the best is going to be played, regardless of how many cards are printed. I would say that if you don't like Brainstorm (et al) or can't figure out a way to beat the decks that play it, then I would suggest that you really don't like competitive magic. When it comes to serious competition, the 'everyone wins and everyone gets a trophy' mentality is absent for a reason...it's serious competition.

I say leave the dual lands alone, leave brainstorm alone, let the kiddos have their format-defining cards and let the mayhem ensue...and when the dust settles (and it will) there will be top decks and top players...because that's what competitive gaming is about.

Well, this was refreshing. That is a sober and intelligent look competitive play. No matter what the card pool there will always be best cards that people will splash for, if you can't fight the best and you're upset because your pet deck can't win; play kitchen table with your friends. Also, pet decks actually can win... Just ask Reid Duke haha

[Gheizen64]

Yeah let's compare the penetration of 10 cards to 1 (and besides, completely missing the point of color prevalence). What's next? The good ol' argument of "Hitler was an atheist"?

Intellectual dishonesty at its best.

[TheMinel]

definitely against banning duals!!! :smile:


I just bought 4 underground seas :wink:

[Mr. Safety]

Well, this was refreshing. That is a sober and intelligent look competitive play. No matter what the card pool there will always be best cards that people will splash for, if you can't fight the best and you're upset because your pet deck can't win; play kitchen table with your friends. Also, pet decks actually can win... Just ask Reid Duke haha

In reality, you can only argue equipment so far (not literal equipment like Umezawa's Jitte, just the cards/decks etc. that are used.) Talent must be, and obviously is, the biggest reason for folks winning. People that say it's the equipment are in reality kinda sore losers...bring out the 'ol 'variance crutch' and lean on that for a while.

In baseball, the field you play in provides variance (just look at Fenway Park and the green monster for an example.) Some parks are harder to hit home runs in...others (like the new Yankee Stadium, conspiritorily) are easier due to a tail-wind that keeps the ball soaring. Does this diminish the skill of the players hitting home runs? Of course not...and blaming the field for a loss is churlish.

I don't think players would scream for a ban on Louisville Slugger bats because the top 8 home run hitters all use them. That's ridiculous. While magic is not a direct correlation, I think what I'm saying makes sense. Top players use top equipment, period. Don't blame the equipment when the real issue is that it's hard to admit someone has a smidge more talent than someone else.

[DrJones]

I will state the problem with legacy making use of this single comic strip:
http://tiracomica.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/16-9.gif?w=576&h=171
Translation:
5-years old: In this game called Chess can the two players win?
Chess players: No. Only one.
5-years old: Then, why is the other player playing?

[Kuma]

Ten cards are a lot like one card if you're really bad math and, by extension, logic.

In any serious deck, running the appropriate dual lands in your colors is every bit as mindless, pervasive, and powerful as running Brainstorm. The comparison is fair. If you still disagree, let's hear you defend keeping Tropical Island legal.


Yeah let's compare the penetration of 10 cards to 1 (and besides, completely missing the point of color prevalence). What's next? The good ol' argument of "Hitler was an atheist"?

Intellectual dishonesty at its best.

Oh, this is about color prevalence. Blue is obviously hurt the most by the removal of dual lands. The color doesn't do a lot unless it has support colors, and killing the fetch-dual manabase makes it harder to run those support colors. The only mono-colored blue deck that's had even a modicum of success recently is Merfolk, and that's only because it's strong against fetch-dual manabases.

Did you miss the part of my article where I said removing duals hurts fetches hurts Brainstorm hurts Delver of Secrets? If that doesn't put a dent in blue, what does?

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Banning duals simply won't happen. Ever.

Speaking of pillars of Legacy... Also, ban duals and generate some actual rage quits. I mean, cut out the most expensive part of the format? Seriously, stop trying your heart out to find the best deck and gut it. The best players use the best decks, that's why you see so many comparable decks in t8s over and over again. Because right now, at this moment in time, tempo based Delver decks are very strong and don't have any abhorrent MUs. No matter what there will always be a "best" option, and people seem to be repulsed by this thought.

If you want a warm and fuzzy "everyone is a winner" format with lots of diversity... Please, please just play Kitchen Table? Do people even play Magic with their friends anymore? If you want to play a bad Legacy deck, whip it out with your friends and rip it there, but don't cry all over the internet when you lose in a cut throat tournament because you didn't play a tier 1 deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Blue is obviously hurt the most by the removal of dual lands.


Yes, the only color that has had TWO tier-one mono-colored decks in the last year is the one hurt most by the removal of dual lands. I'm not sure if this is intellectual dishonesty or just plain ignorance.

[Rizso]

Am I the only one that read that he doesnt want the duals banned, but rather explaining why Brainstorm is a such a good card and the duals and fetchlands is the reason brainstorm and blue decks are everywhere.

I would be worried when that Brainstorm-monoblue deck takes over the format until then fetch, duals or brainstorm dont need to get banned.

[Kuma]

Yes, the only color that has had TWO tier-one mono-colored decks in the last year is the one hurt most by the removal of dual lands. I'm not sure if this is intellectual dishonesty or just plain ignorance.

You're talking about Merfolk and what else? MUC? High Tide?

I already explained that Merfolk's success comes from the fact that people run shaky fetch-dual manabases.

Neither MUC or High Tide have won anything in the format's current incarnation. How are these decks tier one?

[Rizso]

What’s that? You say you’d hate Legacy if the dual lands were banned? Why is that? Aren’t dual lands clearly warping the format to the point where they reduce diversity? Don’t they price certain people out of the format? They clearly reduce the amount of thought that goes into deckbuilding. Why keep around cards that do these things?

It's simple. The players enjoy playing with those cards and would enjoy Legacy more with dual lands than without. We’re seeing more and more people play Legacy than ever before, despite the “problems” caused by Brainstorm and its cohorts. While Brainstorm may be the strongest, most played card in Legacy, it is played in a host of archetypes. In the six SCG Opens since Mental Misstep was banned, eight different deck archetypes running Brainstorm made top four. As you move down the standings, that number exponentially increases. Clearly we have a diverse format even though people aren’t done figuring out how to attack Brainstorm, Delver of Secrets, and Snapcaster Mage.

There are certain iconic cards that make Legacy what it is. Dual lands are the most obvious example. If you want an eternal format without duals, Force of Will, Wasteland, and Brainstorm, you can play Modern. If you want a format that you can play for pennies, consider Pauper. Most people play Legacy precisely because they can play dual lands, Brainstorms, Force of Wills, Dark Rituals, Lion’s Eye Diamonds and Wastelands. A poll on The Source shows that around 80% of serious Legacy players want Brainstorm to remain legal. If you’re in that 20% that want a ban, maybe Legacy isn’t your format. With the amount of diversity present when all these cards legal, why alienate the format’s strongest supporters? Why turn Legacy into a glorified Modern or Vintage, two formats that are far less popular than Legacy?

Brainstorm is an iconic Magic card that is a great tester of skill. Perhaps the reason it wins so many tournaments is that it lets strong players better leverage their skill over lesser players. It has also been posited that SCG’s policy of allowing top 8 players to see their opponents’ decklists favors Brainstorm decks by allowing their pilots to make more educated decisions with the card. More than anything, Legacy players want the card to remain legal in a diverse format. That’s the best reason not to make a ban.

Did people not reading this part of the article?

[Sloshthedark]

Legacy has no real problems. Except maybe too much copy-paste latest SCG top 8 deck going

tadaaaaaa .. simple truth

[Admiral_Arzar]

Yes, the only color that has had TWO tier-one mono-colored decks in the last year is the one hurt most by the removal of dual lands.



Neither MUC or High Tide have won anything in the format's current incarnation. How are these decks tier one?

1. High Tide
2. Read my fucking post.

[Kuma]

Winning two tournaments and then falling off the face of the Earth does not a tier one deck make. Also, Candelabra of Tawnos will stop that deck from ever becoming a format dominating menace.

[Zilla]

I'm just going to make this super clear for those that either a) didn't read the entire article or b) didn't completely understand it:

The author is not advocating the banning of dual lands in Legacy. He is drawing a parallel between banning dual lands and banning Brainstorm, and using that as a means of explaining why Brainstorm should not be banned.


What’s that? You say you’d hate Legacy if the dual lands were banned? Why is that? Aren’t dual lands clearly warping the format to the point where they reduce diversity? Don’t they price certain people out of the format? They clearly reduce the amount of thought that goes into deckbuilding. Why keep around cards that do these things?

It's simple. The players enjoy playing with those cards and would enjoy Legacy more with dual lands than without.

Just thought I'd make that super clear, because I don't think anyone actually thinks dual lands should be banned, so discussing it is kind of counterproductive.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Winning two tournaments and then falling off the face of the Earth does not a tier one deck make. Also, Candelabra of Tawnos will stop that deck from ever becoming a format dominating menace.

You are missing my point completely. I'll say this once. There was a point where both High Tide and Merfolk were winning tournaments in the last year. No other color has had two mono-colored decks win anything (Goblins may have won an open, that's all I can think of in terms of other monocolored lists, and that list may or may not have had splashes). Thus, it logically follows that blue as a color would be less effected by a hypothetical ban on duals.

Also, Tier 1 =/= format dominating. ANT is listed as Tier 1 right now, and that deck is most definitely not dominating.

[MDB]

Ah..perfect place for a good trolling.

Brainstorm is the best card in Legacy. Being the best makes it at least banworthy.
So, would you ban Swords (best removal), Tarmogoyf (best beater), Jace (best planeswalker), FoW (best counter), the Duals (oops lands), and, oh no not, the Island (best land evar)? I hear you say. Then I would say no, no, no, perhaps, yes, :frown:. Being the best sets the limit, and that limit will invariably be close to broken. Which, admittedly, is just what legacy is all about. Ain't it? Yet, being the best at something, like library manipulation (which, arguably, is the best “something”), is still quite something else as being the best card in eternal freaking Legacy. I mean, Brainstorm is the consensus-best-card in a format defined predominantly by cards, which in hindsight, should not have been printed.

Which brings me to the Duals, which in turn takes me back to that good ol' time when we hoped Wizards was gonna abolish the Reserved list, only to crush our hopes, even closing the loophole to add insult to injury. It was the hot topic for months, just like Brainstorm is hogging the format discussion board of late. The reserved list, aka the duals, are THE limiting factor to Legacy's growth as a format. Many here raised Vintage-esque doom scenarios, regarding the limited supply, zero design room for improvement, bugger-all chances for reprints (despite the legion of interesting ways it could be done), little prospected format-backing by WotC/Hasbro, exploding (SCG-backed) popularity of the format, and most importantly, the already alarming increase in prices. There's the very real risk here that Legacy will buckle under the pressure of its own popularity. These are long-term concerns, things to be dealt with in time. But, for example's sake, let's speed it up and suppose the $ crashes today, right this minute. All those Asian guys itching to play, and definitely zee Germans, would buy them Tropicals A.S.A.P. Then what? Given the supply, we'd succeed. It's already happening to them jewels..

Regarding the blue dominance, FoW is the real culprit there. The only contender with Brainstorm for being the best card in legacy. Broken? Yes. Bannable? Nope. Going to succeed at a tournament without it, not likely. To court a tourney top 8 you will need to ask permission of Mr. Variance and Miss Random, which are, as ever, swayed by the FoW/Brainstorm tandem, which rides you to victory. You sleeve up FoW, naturally you'll sleeve up Brainstorm as well. So that just leaves the surplus 10-12 blue fillercards to ponder, because the penáche is splashed from the other colors. Take Brainstorm out of the equation and you'll kick blue in the nuts, which it obviously deserves. But I like the proposed idea of banning the Duals to wallop blue, in quite a special way, and which might keep Brainstorm from becoming the scapegoat. I for one think it would 1. devastate the current player base, many would quit or start playing vintage, which brings me to 2. a surge in proxy-vintage showings, and 3. Legacy would explode, with the chief barrier to entry removed. And, since it would be so much fun, you'd all come back ;). Perfect timing, of course, would be when WotC reprints the shocklands in the upcoming Ravnica revisit...>omg spoiler alert<...

Anyways, I have not so much faith in WotC rectifying the problem by printing non-blue goodies any time soon. Given their current trackrecord, i.e. Snapcaster Mage, which should have been red, Delver of Secrets, which has no business being blue, Mental Misstep, would have been nice in red, or non-permanent, and Jace wasn't too shabby either. Given this level of FAIL, and the 'win-cards' like SFM and Goyf, being nullified, even abused because of the Brainstorm/Fetch/Dual-engine, there is no end in sight for blue dominance, just like the beginning, it's eternal dominion. Something's gotta give guys, what's it gonna be? Brainstorm, the Duals, or should we go after those damn Fetchlands after all? trololoo

[Einherjer]

Why are you guys playing Legacy?
Im playing it because

I wanna play fetchland, pass turn, crack fetch into dual to swords his first creature or brainstorm eot, then play a second land, dropping a SFM, oponent countering, me dazing back, he forces, I force, resolves, search library to get Batterskull and pass turn.....

Or would you like to ....

Play Forest, tap, Elves, go, Opponent Elves, you 2 Elves.... FATTIE and attack?


I mean you can choose, play some Modern or kitchen-table magic but if you want to play LEGACY...you should be comfortable with a decent amount of strength in all of this cards...and where would we end when banning all the good cards? Forest-Elves-Attack...

Greetings

[Admiral_Arzar]

Why are you guys playing Legacy?
Im playing it because

I wanna play fetchland, pass turn, crack fetch into dual to swords his first creature or brainstorm eot, then play a second land, dropping a SFM, oponent countering, me dazing back, he forces, I force, resolves, search library to get Batterskull and pass turn.....

Or would you like to ....

Play Forest, tap, Elves, go, Opponent Elves, you 2 Elves.... FATTIE and attack?


I mean you can choose, play some Modern or kitchen-table magic but if you want to play LEGACY...you should be comfortable with a decent amount of strength in all of this cards...and where would we end when banning all the good cards? Forest-Elves-Attack...

Greetings

I dunno, personally I prefer something involving turn 1 Rituals + LEDs -> engine -> kill you, but I see your point, despite its extreme hyperbole. Aggro Elves will never be that good in a format with Perish :cool:.

[Mr. Safety]

Modern has already degenerated into essentially a boxing match...aggro vs. aggro, most of the time zoo vs. another zoo variant. BO-ring.

I like both examples...an explosive turn from TES or a fencing match of 'who can win the counter war'. Awesome stuff, legacy stuff.

[Sims]

I still think it would be hilarious to see the format without Brainstorm or Fetchlands.

[DrJones]

Modern has already degenerated into essentially a boxing match...aggro vs. aggro, most of the time zoo vs. another zoo variant. BO-ring.If we apply the same string of silly remarks you and others use to defend the current state of legacy, green has always been the best color in modern and you are doing it wrong for not playing it, maybe you just enjoy playing bad decks, also people should stop being lazy and learn to adapt to it, GSZ shouldn't have been banned because it was already a staple and was used by a whole lot of different decks, nothing has to change in the format, there's plenty of variety of available decks, even though it looks like a strategy is dominant, the few differences in card choices make the difference. Modern rewards playskill, nerfing zoo would make combo dominant, so it's a necessary evil that keeps decks honest, Tarmogoyf is a body that only attacks and blocks, and you probably whine because you can't play your pet deck, which is surely Stasis because you are a bad person. Instead of asking for bannings, we should ask WotC to print GOOD cards in blue, or even better, ask them to reprint Oath of Druids or Berserk in a Standard legal set, that would shake the format and help beating those Tarmogoyf decks, plus if Tarmogoyf is ever banned, people will rage quit the format forever, because WotC doesn't protect the player's investment in the format.

So stop whining, and go play <insert format you despise of your choice>.

[Julian23]

I see what you did there...lol :laugh:


[If I can't get FoW banned in Legacy, I want a single deck to dominate Modern.]

fix'ed.

[Admiral_Arzar]

If we apply the same string of silly remarks you and others use to defend the current state of legacy, green has always been the best color in modern and you are doing it wrong for not playing it, maybe you just enjoy playing bad decks, also people should stop being lazy and learn to adapt to it, GSZ shouldn't have been banned because it was already a staple and was used by a whole lot of different decks, nothing has to change in the format, there's plenty of variety of available decks, even though it looks like a strategy is dominant, the few differences in card choices make the difference. Modern rewards playskill, nerfing zoo would make combo dominant, so it's a necessary evil that keeps decks honest, Tarmogoyf is a body that only attacks and blocks, and you probably whine because you can't play your pet deck, which is surely Stasis because you are a bad person. Instead of asking for bannings, we should ask WotC to print GOOD cards in blue, or even better, ask them to reprint Oath of Druids or Berserk in a Standard legal set, that would shake the format and help beating those Tarmogoyf decks, plus if Tarmogoyf is ever banned, people will rage quit the format forever, because WotC doesn't protect the player's investment in the format.

So stop whining, and go play <insert format you despise of your choice>.

I don't normally agree with you Dr. Jones, but this post was pretty awesome.

[Mr. Safety]

If we apply the same string of silly remarks you and others use to defend the current state of legacy...and you probably whine because you can't play your pet deck, which is surely Stasis because you are a bad person...So stop whining, and go play <insert format you despise of your choice>.

Now that was uncalled for...I actually play quite a bit of modern and have several decks posted on this forum. I don't play pet-decks and I have made no 'whining' remarks...I stated what I believe modern to have degenerated into, based on my own experience with the format. Honestly, I have a hard time following your incredibly long run-on sentences. Punctuation goes a long way, my friend.


Modern rewards playskill, nerfing zoo would make combo dominant, so it's a necessary evil that keeps decks honest...

Is that you Tom? I thought you went to work for Dungeons and Dragons?

Quoted from Zilla in the Brainstorm Ban Discussion Thread


The same top level players do well in almost every event, and those players and their friends are choosing to play a particular subset of decks, and so are of course doing well with them.

I suspect that if those same players chose to tune and sleeve up Maverick for a few events, it would start looking to some people like an unstoppable force in the metagame that can only be fixed with a ban, and then we can be having this same discussion about Green Sun's Zenith next month, like Brainstorm this month, and Show and Tell last month, and on and on and on.

Or we can accept that, over time, the Legacy card pool is deep enough to adapt to almost any "dominant" force available to it. If that actually proves to be untrue for more than a few months, then maybe action is necessary.

That makes a hell of a lot of sense to me, seriously.

[GtF]

I appreciate the thrust of the article, but I think the choice of your example could have been better.
Fetchlands are actually the most broken thing in legacy, not dual lands. They are the "problem" if there is a problem. Here are the reasons:
1. They let you play all the colors. Dual lands do not do this by themselves, it's the tutoring power provided by the fetchlands that really enable this. Like you say in the article, you could just replace the dual lands with shock lands and you'd be able to fix your colors just like before. Yes, you'd pay a price just like in modern, but it would still be possible. Without fetchlands, it's not nearly as possible, and the costs become very serious. Just look at standard now that the fetchlands have rotated: Going beyond two colors is very ambitious and you need more support than just your manabase to do it (like rampant growth, card drawing, and the like). This requires spots in your deck, a certain style of deck to be played, and on and on. Meanwhile the cost for playing fetchlands is...well basically zero, except you might get stifled every now and then.
2. They let you get basics! Dual lands do not. This is huge. All the nonbasic hate that can be directed at a dual-land heavy manabase can suddenly be worked around just by the inclusion of a few basic lands. That's why said hate isn't more prevalent - it's so easy to get around. If fetchlands didn't exist to tutor up the solution, this would be a big issue for dual land decks, and the notion of monocolor decks being really strong, which seems absurd right now, wouldn't be absurd at all.
3. They are what make brainstorm good. Without fetchlands, brainstorm would not be in the discussion as a banworthy card. It's sort of a chicken and egg situation, since they are both very powerful cards that get way better in combination with each other. But I think just considering their standalone power, fetchlands are better than brainstorm. So I think it's fair to say that fetchlands give brainstorm more of its power than the other way around.

Of course, brainstorm and fetchlands are both iconic to legacy and no one really wants fetchlands to be banned, they've come to be identified with the format and that's fine. Also, if you did ban fetchlands, it would not ease the cost of legacy at all since it would drive the price of duals through the roof, since you'd really need four to play any two color deck.

Still, on a pure power level, I think it's fair to say that fetchlands are "too good for a land" (compared to all the other lands, including the duals), just like it's fair to say tarmogoyf is too good for a creature, and jace is too good for a planeswalker.

[Intet's Attendant]

I appreciate the thrust of the article, but I think the choice of your example could have been better.
Fetchlands are actually the most broken thing in legacy, not dual lands. They are the "problem" if there is a problem. Here are the reasons:
1. They let you play all the colors. Dual lands do not do this by themselves, it's the tutoring power provided by the fetchlands that really enable this. Like you say in the article, you could just replace the dual lands with shock lands and you'd be able to fix your colors just like before. Yes, you'd pay a price just like in modern, but it would still be possible. Without fetchlands, it's not nearly as possible, and the costs become very serious. Just look at standard now that the fetchlands have rotated: Going beyond two colors is very ambitious and you need more support than just your manabase to do it (like rampant growth, card drawing, and the like). This requires spots in your deck, a certain style of deck to be played, and on and on. Meanwhile the cost for playing fetchlands is...well basically zero, except you might get stifled every now and then.
2. They let you get basics! Dual lands do not. This is huge. All the nonbasic hate that can be directed at a dual-land heavy manabase can suddenly be worked around just by the inclusion of a few basic lands. That's why said hate isn't more prevalent - it's so easy to get around. If fetchlands didn't exist to tutor up the solution, this would be a big issue for dual land decks, and the notion of monocolor decks being really strong, which seems absurd right now, wouldn't be absurd at all.
3. They are what make brainstorm good. Without fetchlands, brainstorm would not be in the discussion as a banworthy card. It's sort of a chicken and egg situation, since they are both very powerful cards that get way better in combination with each other. But I think just considering their standalone power, fetchlands are better than brainstorm. So I think it's fair to say that fetchlands give brainstorm more of its power than the other way around.

Of course, brainstorm and fetchlands are both iconic to legacy and no one really wants fetchlands to be banned, they've come to be identified with the format and that's fine. Also, if you did ban fetchlands, it would not ease the cost of legacy at all since it would drive the price of duals through the roof, since you'd really need four to play any two color deck.

Still, on a pure power level, I think it's fair to say that fetchlands are "too good for a land" (compared to all the other lands, including the duals), just like it's fair to say tarmogoyf is too good for a creature, and jace is too good for a planeswalker.

I truly believe that without fetchlands, neither Brainstorm nor Goyf would be anywhere as powerful.

It would also be way easier for Blood Moon/Back to Basics to wreck manabases.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In any serious deck, running the appropriate dual lands in your colors is every bit as mindless, pervasive, and powerful as running Brainstorm. The comparison is fair. If you still disagree, let's hear you defend keeping Tropical Island legal.


First of all, you made an argument using numbers based around all ten duals. The numbers on Tropical Island are a good bit worse than the numbers on Brainstorm and/or Force of Will.

Secondly I would use the same argument I use to say that banning Force of Will is a bad idea, even though it's as heavily played and heavily over-performing as Brainstorm; it measurably and explainably improves the format, in this case, to have multi-color decks be easily playable while keeping fairly robust manabases.

I think cheap manipulation also helps the format in different ways, but there are more alternatives to Brainstorm that are of a more reasonable power level, so it makes sense to target Brainstorm over many other options if blue is too powerful for too long.

Of course, there are other arguments for not banning Brainstorm, but they're discussed elsewhere.

[chags]

rambling

Is that you Tom? I thought you went to work for Dungeons and Dragons?

rambling

Ertai's familiar already executed this joke.

[Mr. Safety]

I give him full credit...I stole the line from him after seeing it in Great Source Quotes.

[Kuma]

First of all, you made an argument using numbers based around all ten duals. The numbers on Tropical Island are a good bit worse than the numbers on Brainstorm and/or Force of Will.

Depends on what "a good bit worse" is. Tropical Island has been in 5 out of 6 Top 2's since Mental Misstep was banned compared to Brainstorm's 6 out of 6. Statistically speaking, there's no difference in performance.


Secondly I would use the same argument I use to say that banning Force of Will is a bad idea, even though it's as heavily played and heavily over-performing as Brainstorm; it measurably and explainably improves the format, in this case, to have multi-color decks be easily playable while keeping fairly robust manabases.

I'd buy that if multi-color decks were simply "playable." As I showed, they're a more format dominating strategy than Brainstorm. Every deck in the top 2 since Mental Misstep was banned has been running Tropical Island, Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, or Tundra.


I think cheap manipulation also helps the format in different ways, but there are more alternatives to Brainstorm that are of a more reasonable power level, so it makes sense to target Brainstorm over many other options if blue is too powerful for too long.

Really? There are way more reasonable alternatives to dual lands than Brainstorm. With Brainstorm, you have Ponder and Preordain. With dual lands you have shocklands, fetchlands, filter lands, M10/INN duals, Scars of Mirrodin duals, Reflecting Pool, Grove of the Burnwillows, etc. Those cards are far closer in power to dual lands than Ponder and Preordain are to Brainstorm.

[Destroying Angel]

Good show, this is a fair comparison to draw; and a good troll.

No not a troll; this is a very elegant and cogent response to the hysteria of banning Legacy has been plagued by in recent seasons. You manage to clearly make a case for an argument you and your readership oppose before transposing that issue over a more controversial one. Nicely written. While I generally tire of and despise the repetitive 'ban brainstorm' discussions, congratulations on a useful and rational response to the question.

[Gheizen64]

No not a troll; this is a very elegant and cogent response to the hysteria of banning Legacy has been plagued by in recent seasons. You manage to clearly make a case for an argument you and your readership oppose before transposing that issue over a more controversial one. Nicely written. While I generally tire of and despise the repetitive 'ban brainstorm' discussions, congratulations on a useful and rational response to the question.

Using a strawman isn't rational, it's only a provocation. The reasons for people asking on a ban on brainstorm have nothing to do with some of the arguments people present to further elaborate their position. Presenting similar arguments (aka the prevalence, that note, was presented only to compare against other popular cards that were banned to counteract the argument that the card wasn't prevalent as precedent banned cards) but having no reasons behind to argument is only an empty provocation.
This is getting annoying, people wanted to debate (not me anymore, i've seen both side and i've said what i had to, now i'm just waiting) and most (if not all) of what one side is getting is "you're whining" "eternal should be blue" "then why not ban duals too they have the same penetration too".
We seriously can't do better? Better to be aggressive and accusing the other side of the debate of "whining" , this is merely a result of our education.