Counterfeiting

[Royal Ass.]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/finance/23266_Counterfeiting_Is_Bad_For_Magic.html

Does anyone know what legal action he is speaking about?

How rampant is counterfeiting with legacy staples? I know back in the early 2000's it was getting pretty bad with beta power cards when Type 1 was at its peak.

[luckme10]

No idea. But I can't believe that article took many years to write. Either he is the slowest typist in the world, or he was in a coma.

[cdr]

No idea. But I can't believe that article took many years to write. Either he is the slowest typist in the world, or he was in a coma.

He had it archived waiting for a good time to post it; WotC suing "proxy" producers is as good a time as any to publish it.

And yes, I suspect that's largely what WotC is doing - going after people producing "proxies" on eBay and other websites. There's some really slick producers in SE asia, but I'm not sure whether WotC can manage to get at the legally. I guess they do likely have Hasbro Intl's legal dept.

Unfortunately, that Ben is talking about what's an OK proxy vs what's counterfeiting doesn't seem to have come across very well, judging by the comments.

[makochman]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

before you applaud this move by WotC against counterfeiters, consider this. They have only targeted a small handful of fraudsters who printed counterfeit cards and sold them on Ebay (one can assume) who explicitly stated that they were proxies. Let me quote their statement:


Recently we at Wizards of the Coast have taken action against a number of individuals creating counterfeit Magic: The Gathering cards and claiming they are proxies.

This action does not address the real problem: people who, knowingly or not, put up fake cards for sale as though they were genuine. It's just trademark/copyright protection.

[dahcmai]

I was just waiting for someone in the comments to post something like "Counterfeiting is good because it's like abolishing the reserve list!" or something along those lines. lol


That article is a tad odd though. It really does kind of boil down to "Counterfeits are bad" and "Ummm, Counterfeits are bad". No real examples of anything or even a history lesson on the old stuff. Just a basic explanation of what most everyone already knows. Hardly interesting.

Kind of annoying that they bother to go after those "proxy" makers. It's obvious what they are and the people list that they aren't real, why bother? Seems a little overly picky to me. I liked the foil power running around actually. It's probably those, that or the proxies that use the original art enough to anger the artists.

Eh, who knows considering how vague they were on it.

[cdr]

Kind of annoying that they bother to go after those "proxy" makers. It's obvious what they are and the people list that they aren't real, why bother? Seems a little overly picky to me. I liked the foil power running around actually. It's probably those, that or the proxies that use the original art enough to anger the artists.

Have you seen some of the ones on eBay? Flat out counterfeits (under any definition, not just Wizard's "anything with our art or borders is counterfeit") sold under the guise of "proxy". Star City probably sees a fair number of "proxies" at the dealer booth.

I have zero sympathy for anyone making a profit off of purloining Wizards's copyrights.

[Malchar]

Even if they list them as being fake, why would that make it less of a crime? If I make a copy of a Dungeons & Dragons manual and sell it, it's illegal even if I tell people that it's not real.

[Dan Turner]

I am not sure but I heard a few years back 10-15 maybe a employee of Xerox was caught counterfeiting power on commercial presses that was so good you could not tell it was fake. This was supposedly in the upper east coast around Syracuse or something.

If you have a counterfeit so good it passes every test known.

Would it then be considered a real card? I know this is no it is still a counterfeit.

But to be honest if you were given 2 underground seas and the both were identical in every possible way, how would you tell one was real and one was fake.

I say this because supposedly there are about 200-300 pieces of each of the power 9 running around from this guy that he claims to have made before he was caught.

i guess the only way to really test is to take a known real card and examine the paper under a microscope since all paper has a little different texture unless he got the same exact card stock.

[jandax]

Have you seen some of the ones on eBay? Flat out counterfeits (under any definition, not just Wizard's "anything with our art or borders is counterfeit") sold under the guise of "proxy". Star City probably sees a fair number of "proxies" at the dealer booth.

I have zero sympathy for anyone making a profit off of purloining Wizards's copyrights.

Word of the Day:

Purloin

[Middle English purloinen, to remove, from Anglo-Norman purloigner : pur-, away (from Latin pr-; see pro-1) + loign, far (from Latin long, from longus, long; see del-1 in Indo-European roots).]

v. pur·loined, pur·loin·ing, pur·loins
v.tr.
To steal, often in a violation of trust. See Synonyms at steal.
v.intr.
To commit theft.

[Darkenslight]

Even if they list them as being fake, why would that make it less of a crime? If I make a copy of a Dungeons & Dragons manual and sell it, it's illegal even if I tell people that it's not real.

It's technically illegal, but no-one is being deceived in that case: counterfeiting implies deception that the goods are real.

[SpikeyMikey]

Have you seen some of the ones on eBay? Flat out counterfeits (under any definition, not just Wizard's "anything with our art or borders is counterfeit") sold under the guise of "proxy". Star City probably sees a fair number of "proxies" at the dealer booth.

I have zero sympathy for anyone making a profit off of purloining Wizards's copyrights.

I do. Frankly, I'm the guy Dahcmai was waiting for. I hope the market gets flooded with realistic counterfeits. I hope the speculators lose their asses. I want to watch the secondary market burn. I hope those guys make good money off ripping off Wizards IP and use it to bankroll an evil organization bent on nuking Renton, WA off the map. And I hope they torture MaRo to death slowly and painfully. If Wizards won't repeal their reprint policy and someone else wants to do it for them, well I'll stand up and clap for that person. If I could buy fakes at $5 a pop and play them in real tournaments, hell, I might even own cards again instead of just borrowing them when I want to play.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

I do. Frankly, I'm the guy Dahcmai was waiting for. I hope the market gets flooded with realistic counterfeits. I hope the speculators lose their asses. I want to watch the secondary market burn. I hope those guys make good money off ripping off Wizards IP and use it to bankroll an evil organization bent on nuking Renton, WA off the map. And I hope they torture MaRo to death slowly and painfully. If Wizards won't repeal their reprint policy and someone else wants to do it for them, well I'll stand up and clap for that person. If I could buy fakes at $5 a pop and play them in real tournaments, hell, I might even own cards again instead of just borrowing them when I want to play.

I'm with you man, minus the torture. How many of you have pirated music or files of the web and felt no remorse? Paying hundreds of dollars for little pieces of fantasy card stock is ludicrous. Wizards should be pumping out staples. If they missed the boat (which I think they have) maybe the community should take matters into their own hands.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

wow that was a pretty shitty thing to say

why don't you just play mws instead of real magic if you hate cards so much..

[troopatroop]

Commenting on things people didn't say. The musings of the high sourcer. :P

[dahcmai]

I was more referencing the simplistic ones. These I see no problem with. People like proxies that are a little more recognizable than a simple basic with sharpie on it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/magic-mtg-altered-painted-Japanese-Mox-Sapphire-Proxy-Modfly-Alters-/140659932896?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20bffc3ee0


These, I can totally understand them not wanting on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beta-Tropical-Island-Beautiful-Condition-Proxy-/190614703017?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c61858ba9

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-proxy-proxies-power-nine-all-foil-very-good-quality-/230716820034?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b7cb4a42


So these are considering a violation now? Probably not considering they are so vague in name, but it's obvious what they are talking about.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JET-GAMING-ETC-POWER-NINE-9-P9-GAMINGETC-PROXY-PROMO-/230689267150?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b626ddce

[cdr]

I was more referencing the simplistic ones. These I see no problem with. People like proxies that are a little more recognizable than a simple basic with sharpie on it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/magic-mtg-altered-painted-Japanese-Mox-Sapphire-Proxy-Modfly-Alters-/140659932896?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20bffc3ee0

The problem I have is that you're profiting off of something you didn't create. WotC probably spent thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in salary to create the iconic borders alone. I have no problem with personal use (even if WotC does), but if you're profiting off of other people's IP you thoroughly deserve to get nailed.


These, I can totally understand them not wanting on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beta-Tropical-Island-Beautiful-Condition-Proxy-/190614703017?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c61858ba9

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-proxy-proxies-power-nine-all-foil-very-good-quality-/230716820034?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b7cb4a42

Yep.


So these are considering a violation now? Probably not considering they are so vague in name, but it's obvious what they are talking about.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JET-GAMING-ETC-POWER-NINE-9-P9-GAMINGETC-PROXY-PROMO-/230689267150?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b626ddce

IIRC, WotC actually went after the first company that made that style of proxy, but later backed off. They're not directly using anyone else's IP (though they are trading on it) so I have much less of a problem.

[menace13]

I do. Frankly, I'm the guy Dahcmai was waiting for. I hope the market gets flooded with realistic counterfeits. I hope the speculators lose their asses. I want to watch the secondary market burn. I hope those guys make good money off ripping off Wizards IP and use it to bankroll an evil organization bent on nuking Renton, WA off the map. And I hope they torture MaRo to death slowly and painfully. If Wizards won't repeal their reprint policy and someone else wants to do it for them, well I'll stand up and clap for that person. If I could buy fakes at $5 a pop and play them in real tournaments, hell, I might even own cards again instead of just borrowing them when I want to play.

Eventually someone will get the idea that making good copies of cards that cost 125+ has less legal consequences than counterfeit money. I would love to buy some.

[Octopusman]

I too see many parallels between the music industry and even magic.

Magic came out in 1993. The world has changed a lot. I feel that Wotc needs to get with the times and offer singles - print to order on their own site. Even power.

What a missed opportunity for them.

[cdr]

Some of the dumbest comments I've seen in awhile, but remember that a couple years ago WotC was ready to junk the reserved list until a group of collectors threatened them with a lawsuit. At least know who to blame.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Some of the dumbest comments I've seen in awhile, but remember that a couple years ago WotC was ready to junk the reserved list until a group of collectors threatened them with a lawsuit. At least know who to blame.

Bro, you don't really believe that, do you? That a bunch of comic book guys could lawyer up enough to defeat Hasbro in what would be an impossible-to-win case? It's far more likely that some MBA suits, who know jack 'bout Magic, issued an order from above based on some Six Sigma crap that has little relevance to children's card games. That, or it isn't a coincidence that the same day the foil loophole to the Reserve List was closed, Legacy went up on MTGO.

Course, you never know. Maybe a partner in some BIGLAW firm also happens to be using revised dual lands as a hedge against inflation in his retirement fund.

Anyway, on topic, I can't say I'm surprised that counterfeits are becoming more of an issue. Cards are freaking expensive now, and dropping a bennie for an Underground Sea or two and a half for a Moat is harsh in today's economy. Better to talk to your friend with a print shop and get a cheap "proxy" to use for yourself in tournaments. Totally illegal, but hard to catch, and easy to rationalize away any guilt (especially if you don't plan on selling it/duping a buyer).

[SlopeeJ]

I don't get why wizards/hasbro (who ever they are) are doing this. As already mentioned they should be pumping these cards out made to order for who ever wants to purchase them. I would buy counterfeit forces, duals etc if they were available to me and look good. Who knows I bet lots of the cards are and we don't even know.

Not to bring up the reprinting again, but lucky I have friend who has most of the stuff we need to play.

Just retarded, esp if they are selling them as proxies. Who cares if people want foil lotuses for the cubes or 10 proxy dead vintage

[saspook]

Some of the dumbest comments I've seen in awhile

And this includes the comments in the Bertoncini thread.

[RJM]

And this includes the comments in the Bertoncini thread.

Ok yeah, but that ONE caption image with the "too large to be a single check" was pretty damn funny.

[menace13]

Bro, you don't really believe that, do you? That a bunch of comic book guys could lawyer up enough to defeat Hasbro in what would be an impossible-to-win case? It's far more likely that some MBA suits, who know jack 'bout Magic, issued an order from above based on some Six Sigma crap that has little relevance to children's card games. That, or it isn't a coincidence that the same day the foil loophole to the Reserve List was closed, Legacy went up on MTGO.

Course, you never know. Maybe a partner in some BIGLAW firm also happens to be using revised dual lands as a hedge against inflation in his retirement fund.

Anyway, on topic, I can't say I'm surprised that counterfeits are becoming more of an issue. Cards are freaking expensive now, and dropping a bennie for an Underground Sea or two and a half for a Moat is harsh in today's economy. Better to talk to your friend with a print shop and get a cheap "proxy" to use for yourself in tournaments. Totally illegal, but hard to catch, and easy to rationalize away any guilt (especially if you don't plan on selling it/duping a buyer).

At least someone here thinks beyond the bullshit. I agree with everything said.

Don't mind him and the dumb comments comment, he's a cool dude, but some give wotc way too much credit.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

before you applaud this move by WotC against counterfeiters, consider this. They have only targeted a small handful of fraudsters who printed counterfeit cards and sold them on Ebay (one can assume) who explicitly stated that they were proxies. Let me quote their statement:



This action does not address the real problem: people who, knowingly or not, put up fake cards for sale as though they were genuine. It's just trademark/copyright protection.

Lots of those sales were implying that the proxy cards were event legal by misquoting the rules on altered art cards.


It's technically illegal, but no-one is being deceived in that case: counterfeiting implies deception that the goods are real.

Some proxies are fairly realistic looking. In this case it really doesn't matter if you sell a realistic proxy to someone and let them know it's fake. That's no guarantee that they will return the favor to the next person they trade with so the deception just moves down the ladder one notch.