[Deck]UWR Snapcaster Control [Archive]

death

12-15-2011, 02:00 AM

You know what's better than Snapcaster Mage + Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt? That's right. Play the best of both worlds. Somehow I'm not convinced that either U/W or U/R Snapcaster builds are the best out there, I'm bringing you this UWR Snapcaster Control deck - its very much a derivative of MUC (Mono-Blue Control) and plays just like it, except it has W and R splash for the top notch removal spells of the format. Unfortunately some of the card choices seem above the budget but a deck that performs well usually comes at a price.

Why no Stoneforge Mystic?
-it's played out
-it's clunky
-i hate it

Why no Wastelands?
-sometimes it'll screw you unintentionally

Why 3 Force of Will?
-it's card disadvantage, 4 is excessive in a deck packed with answers

I will expand the opening posts once I have the time. Until then, enjoy playtesting!

dsck

12-15-2011, 02:21 AM

I played fairly similar build but left it as the meta is now full of Red Elemental Blast which is cryptonite to this type of deck.

Cards I wanted to test out:
Aven Mindcensor
Geist of Saint Traft
Flusterstorm (in SB against rebs)

igri_is_a_bk

12-15-2011, 08:48 AM

Geist of Saint Traft + Maze of Ith looks hot for a control deck. Maze plays offense and defense with Geist in the deck, which seems good here.

I think you have one too many Jace. Adding five planeswalkers is a lot, and I find it odd when you state you hate Batterskull because it's clunky. Planeswalkers are no different.

Clique is really outclassed by Delver now. You probably want to swap a few or all of those.

klaus

12-16-2011, 08:32 AM

I like your approach, as I found myself boarding out the Blade part of BladeControl.dec more often than not.
The full set of FOWs is a no-brainer though.

I view B2B to be the weakest MD choice here - 60% of the decks out there don't care too much about that card, afterall.

I'd definitely go:
-2 B2B (+ adjusting the mana base accordingly)
-1 land
+1 FOW
+1 Ponder
+1 Snapcaster Mage

---

I'll try out your list and tell you how it flowed.
---
EDIT - Here's my verion:

4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile.
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder

2 Engineered Explosives

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

37

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
6 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Riptide Laboratory

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 REB
4 Surgical
2 Disenchant
1 Ajani Vengeant

klaus

12-20-2011, 11:35 AM

Sry for the double post.
I wonder, why this deck doesn't get more love.
It has some clear advantages over Bladecontrol.dec.
i.e.: better mana base, better card filter, basically blanks creature removal, blanks artifact hate..

Being inspired by Karsten Koetter's Jace.dec, I've been testing Squadron Hawks again and came up with a nice list that features the best of both worlds:

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Snappy
4 Sq. Hawk
2 Vendilion Clique (flex slot)
4 Stp
3 Bolt
1 Path to Exile
4 Jace
4 Fow
3 CS
3 Snare

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volc
1 Mountain
1 Plains
5 Island

SB:
3 Firespout
2 Back to Basics
4 REB
4 S.extraction
2 Disenchant
-

Thoughts?

dsck

12-20-2011, 01:24 PM

klaus

12-21-2011, 04:36 AM

Punishing Fire literally punishes this list. Post-sb you have to battle through rebs, I dont see any chance doing well in a larger tournament.

The S.extractions go a long way battling P. Fire.
Plus it has fallen a litle bit out of favor anyways.

Also, I'm re-considering adding B2B to the board.

What are your suggestions beyond "You'll die a painful death to P.Fire"?

kiblast

12-21-2011, 06:18 AM

P Fire? Really? Ok, I fold to it maindeck (which might also be false b/c you run Vendilion and you might catch your opponent with P Fire in hand, put it on bottom and then fateseal to victory). Post sb you usually bring some numer of Surgical, and E tutor+ Back to Basics/Blood Moon package. You get to play an incredible number of basics with this deck (I play UW Caw Cartel with 8 basics and 8 Fetchlands) so the singleton B2B or Moon is amazing. You play it and feel you are cheating.

biggerliz

12-22-2011, 01:12 PM

i played this quite awhile online. depending on the meta, this can be a good call if you are facing a lot of creature decks/decks with removal.

the biggest issue with this deck is that your main win condition (jace), doesn't come down until turn 10-11, and it takes a lot of work to win with this deck. especially in a timed event, i am not confident i can win g3 on the draw.

klaus

12-25-2011, 08:07 AM

Update:

I replaced those 2 Cliques with Shackles. Used to run them in LS for years but initially thought those slots would be better off as more Snappy material / Cliques, after some testing I can state that Shackles is golden in so many scenarios where Clique is just meh.
Clique Shines against Control (this list has a positive MU against most control decks out there) and Combo - our Combo MU is okay though.
Shackles solves many problems (Mother, Mirror, etc) and more often than not serves as a wincon.

Give 'em a shot!
-
Also: Merry X-Mas!

miko

01-02-2012, 04:57 AM

I really like klaus' idea of dropping the stoneforge package and play a straight UWR Snapcaster Control list. This list is what I'm playing in my local tourneys:

4 Tundra
1 Riptide Labatory
1 Snow-Covered Plains
6 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
= 24

4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:

2 Wrath of God
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Disenchant
3 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
1 Elspeth, the Knight Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Purify the Grave

My meta consists of a lot of RUG decks playing mongoose instead of Snapcasters, Maverick and some decks like Nic Fit, etc.
I play Underground Sea because of EE and Surgical Extraction. Sometimes you just do not want to pay two.
I'm thinking about playing 4 Surgical Extractions and cutting 1 Jace for 1 Vedalcken Shakles.

What do you guys think?

Cotes16

01-02-2012, 05:16 AM

why do not play Fire//Ice?

miko

01-02-2012, 05:58 AM

I do not know what I would like to cut for Fire/Ice. Path and Explosives are way better than Fire/Ice I would argue.

dsck

01-02-2012, 06:12 AM

I do not know what I would like to cut for Fire/Ice. Path and Explosives are way better than Fire/Ice I would argue.

Maybe cut 4 brainstorm so your deck is legal?

miko

01-02-2012, 06:34 AM

Maybe cut 4 brainstorm so your deck is legal?

Could you explain yourself, please?

dsck

01-02-2012, 07:48 AM

Could you explain yourself, please?

Your deck list has 8 brainstorms...

Shaka1333

01-02-2012, 07:49 AM

I really like your idea klaus to drop the SFM package and play Squadron Hawk since I was a huge fan of Hawks back in the days of Mental Misstep.

Removing the SFM package has two main advantages : to free 6-7 slots which is huge and to blank artefact removals that your opponent is very likely going to bring in game 2 and perhaps 3.

I think that for the purpose of this second advantage, you shouldn't play artefact at all in your deck, so neither Veldalken Shackles, Crucible of World nor Jitte.

To get the best out of a Turn 2 Squadron Hawk (that is to say fetching the 3 others Hawk without discarding), you need to play one card on turn 1 on the play. You have 11 playable one-drop (without counting Ponder) which is nice. But, that little advantage aside, i think you play 1 or 2 too many spot removals, don't you think ? Squadron Hawk is already great against aggro because it can chumpblock during several turns and protect effectively your Jaces, i don't think you need 8 spot removals.

Your version is bit light in win condition, i would play some Cliques and 1 or 2 Elspeth. Don't you have some problems to kill and win 2 games in 50 minutes sometimes ?

Why do you choose to play only 21 lands and 3 Ponder instead of the classic 24 lands with some utility lands and 0 cantrip or 23 lands and 2 cantrips ?

You play 0 life gain card in your deck and i think it must be a big problem against Zoo, UR Counterburn, Rug Tempo and Burn. I would try Timely Reinforcements or Umezawa's Jitte but it doesn't fit your non-artefact strategy.

Did you try a black splash instead of the red one ? I have been thinking that Vindicate, Thoughtseize and maybe Diabolic Edict might be better than Bolt and Pyroblast.

Here is the Esper list i'm going to try soon :

23 lands with 3 Wasteland

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Squadron Hawk
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Side :
4 Thougtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Timely Reinforcements

It obviously needs some fixes which will come with testing but right now i really like the look of the list.

Cotes16

01-02-2012, 07:51 AM

in the last list posted "4brainstorm" is written twice...
however i think that 4stp+1pte are too much especially when you play 4snap...
also 3countespell and 4jaceTMS seem too much for me...
another idea could be to play an academy ruins if you like explosive so much

miko

01-02-2012, 08:04 AM

Your deck list has 8 brainstorms...

Fixed.

Einherjer

01-02-2012, 04:23 PM

Not hating or anything but has ANYONE been to ANY tournament with this Stoneforgeless-Bladedeck?

klaus

01-02-2012, 05:49 PM

Not hating or anything but has ANYONE been to ANY tournament with this Stoneforgeless-Bladedeck?

Didn't find the time yet.
But I've done tons of testing and am quite pleased with the results.

dahcmai

01-02-2012, 07:16 PM

I could see how this would work. Stoneblade is getting too predictable anymore with people running maindeck answers to half the items in that decks list. When Tower of the Magistrate starts seeing play it's time to move on. People hate on the package that makes Stoneblade different from this. This deck just doesn't start with it in the first place.

So the thing to ask would be is how much are you hurt by not having that package of equipment and a Batterskull in the match ups that Stoneblade would normally dominate?

miko

01-03-2012, 06:18 AM

klaus

01-03-2012, 07:47 AM

I played the list above in a small local tournament. And lost against DDNT-Combo and Canadian. Won against Maverick, Burn and NicFit.

Using Clique I saw that a lot of ops boarded in Stoneforge/Equipment-hate (e.g. Smash to Smithereens), they named Stoneforge when playing Cabal Therapy and things like that.

Against Burn for example I would have been glad if I had had Batterskull.

Winning against Canadian is pretty hard if they play Mongoose. If not: We are in a pretty good position.

I really like the idea of playing my pet card Squadron Hawk but I think it is not good enough without equipments. Perhaps I should give it a try again.

Very good points.
Mongoose is one of the two true problematic cards out there - Thrun being the other one. Wrath from the side tackles that problem.
I think you can't have it all - and I'm not going to play Wrath in the MD until tribal runs rampant.
Our strategy is indeed not hurt by artifact hate at all so that's another bonus.

@ dahcmai: Playing Stoneblade, I hardly ever won on the back of equipment so it doesn't feel like a big loss not having access to it anymore..

Einherjer

01-03-2012, 08:12 AM

miko

01-03-2012, 09:51 AM

I mean honestly, just basically can it be the plan NOT to play something? All of you just stress that you are different from Stoneblade and the others board wrong Muahhaha?
I mean that cant be your goal? Shouldnt it be a goal to build a deck thats good, on its own. And not one thats only good when the opponent is boarding the wrong way..I mean come on...

Very true. But playing a good deck AND having opponents boarding wrong is OK with me. It is not an either or decision!

Any thoughts about Ajani Vengeant? We could cut one Jace (3 is enough).

klaus

01-03-2012, 10:09 AM

Very true. But playing a good deck AND having opponents boarding wrong is OK with me. It is not an either or decision!

Any thoughts about Ajani Vengeant? We could cut one Jace (3 is enough).

For the Hawk version cutting a Jace is not an option, since you want as many BS effects as possible.

Shaka1333

01-03-2012, 01:47 PM

Is it because to have tointroduce myself or something that you are ignoring my long post klaus ?

It is pity because i think it could bring the discution forward.

klaus

01-03-2012, 05:28 PM

To get the best out of a Turn 2 Squadron Hawk (that is to say fetching the 3 others Hawk without discarding), you need to play one card on turn 1 on the play. You have 11 playable one-drop (without counting Ponder) which is nice. But, that little advantage aside, i think you play 1 or 2 too many spot removals, don't you think ? Squadron Hawk is already great against aggro because it can chumpblock during several turns and protect effectively your Jaces, i don't think you need 8 spot removals.
The deck is geared towards an aggroish meta and the amount of spot removals actually helps me playing 2 cards on turn 1 (land+removal). Nevertheless, I don't view Hawks as a good anti Aggro card - it's superb against control and midrange decks and shines in the lategame against any deck - the large amount of spot removals ensures you get there as unharmed as possible. The card choices are actually quite balanced and tuned at second sight.

Your version is bit light in win condition, i would play some Cliques and 1 or 2 Elspeth. Don't you have some problems to kill and win 2 games in 50 minutes sometimes ?
7 (reusable) cantrips are pretty good at finding one of those four Jaces. Also: don't forget that Shackles is a wincon more often than not - however I could see: +1 Clique - 1 Shackles (I'm actually testing that config atm)

Why do you choose to play only 21 lands and 3 Ponder instead of the classic 24 lands with some utility lands and 0 cantrip or 23 lands and 2 cantrips ?
Carsten Kötter explained to me quite convincingly that those Ponders are crucial to find the BSs that break the Hawks - I'd never go below 3 in this specific deck.

You play 0 life gain card in your deck and i think it must be a big problem against Zoo, UR Counterburn, Rug Tempo and Burn.
Burn is not an issue for me, since it's nearly gone from the German metagame. I've played against modern Burn lists online and find the MU quite even.

Did you try a black splash instead of the red one ? I have been thinking that Vindicate, Thoughtseize and maybe Diabolic Edict might be better than Bolt and Pyroblast.

In the current meta Bolt and REBs are way better than anything black has to offer to this deck (except Perish as a SB option which is nice)
-
Peace,
Jaschar

dahcmai

01-03-2012, 11:01 PM

Black does have Unearth which is a frigging bomb with Snapcasters, Cliques, and Confidants. To me it's the only reason to splash black if you have Snapcasters now.

REB is the main reason to play red though. I'm not a fan of Lavamancers anymore in these types of styles. I tossed them out of my Patriot deck a long time ago. Bolts were worth too much with snaps around. Oh and don't use REB btw, switch over to Pyroblast, there's finally a good reason to bother using it over a REB now past Sleights.

Not sure if I like Ajani over Elspeth though. I like how she can win Jace wars. Ajani can't do that very well.

I do have to agree that Punishing Fire is going to be a gigantic pain. Especially if it's coming in the form of GWr Maverick. Definitely going to have to find a side fix for that hole. The lack of Jitte and Batterskull will show the most there.

klaus

01-04-2012, 08:10 AM

I do have to agree that Punishing Fire is going to be a gigantic pain. Especially if it's coming in the form of GWr Maverick. Definitely going to have to find a side fix for that hole. The lack of Jitte and Batterskull will show the most there.

2 B2B & 4 S.Extraction go a long way here.

Shaka1333

01-04-2012, 08:50 AM

Well danke schön Klaus ! That was quite some good explanations !

I understand your choices of playing a lot of spot removal as your metagame is very Maverick-oriented in Germany i believe.

I totally agree with your description of Squadron Hawk : "it's superb against control and midrange decks and shines in the lategame against any deck". A lot of people only see it as a 1/1 for 2 and as too slow for the Legacy but they are obviously wrong.

I have just read again the article of Carsten Kotter on CAB Caw Cartel, and i understand better now your configuration of lands/cantrip. Did you ever try 10 cantrip and 20 lands like him ?

Why Ponder over Preordain ? I know that Ponder dig one card deeper and it's what you need to dig the deepest to find Brainstorm, Hawk, Jace, a land or a solution but i hate so much when i see one card i like and two cards i don't and having to draw those cards with Ponder... Are you 100% convinced that Ponder is better in this deck ?

I'm not sure if the black splash should be dismissed that fast. I guess it depends of your metagame but against a heavy combo metagame, Thoughtseize is miles better than REB (against Ad Nauseum (aka the best combo deck) for example). What i don't like in classic UWr and UW version is that it's really weak against cards like Choke. Disenchant is a bit narrow (for example, it's really bad against, so you don't side it in and thus you have no answer to a uncountered Choke) and Oblivion Ring is too fragile. That's where Vindicate shines. Unearth is also a great card as dahcmai mentioned (which can reborn this first spell snared hawk btw <3)

What is your pourcentage of win by Hawk/Snap/Clique Damage, by Vedalken Shackles, by Jace and in time, klaus ?

klaus

01-04-2012, 09:58 AM

I have just read again the article of Carsten Kotter on CAB Caw Cartel, and i understand better now your configuration of lands/cantrip. Did you ever try 10 cantrip and 20 lands like him ?
The 10 cantrip config stems from the pre Snappy times :smile:

Why Ponder over Preordain ? I know that Ponder dig one card deeper and it's what you need to dig the deepest to find Brainstorm, Hawk, Jace, a land or a solution but i hate so much when i see one card i like and two cards i don't and having to draw those cards with Ponder... Are you 100% convinced that Ponder is better in this deck ?
With 9-10 fetch lands and Hawks you have quite a few shuffle effects, surely making Ponder > Preordain

Disenchant is a bit narrow (for example, it's really bad against, so you don't side it in and thus you have no answer to a uncountered Choke) and Oblivion Ring is too fragile. That's where Vindicate shines. Unearth is also a great card as dahcmai mentioned (which can reborn this first spell snared hawk btw <3)
Disenchant really isn't narrow - I think I've talked quite a bit about it either in this thread or in the Stoneblade one.
And I consider Unearth a subpar choice in a deck with <12 creatures.

What is your pourcentage of win by Hawk/Snap/Clique Damage, by Vedalken Shackles, by Jace and in time, klaus ?
Good question.
Maybe 60-20-20 (but Jace almost always plays a central role in winning).

Shaka1333

01-04-2012, 12:50 PM

I forgot to say "Zoo" after Disenchant is really bad against (Zoo). You want it to have an out to Choke but it's too narrow to side it in. In mirror match, you probably don't want 2 as it can be really bad when the game goes around Jace and not SFM. ...

I mean i like the card, i will gladly side them in against Maverick, nearly any Stoneblade deck and any random decks resolving around artefacts and enchantements but it's not as powerful/polyvalent as others cards in other color (typically Vindicate) and others cards in your deck. But maybe it's a necessary evil and it's great to be able to reuse them with Snapcaster too.

Going back to your deck :

- Don't you miss utility lands sometimes ? By that, i mean the free win that can offer Wasteland from time to time, the possibility of killing ennoying lands like Maze of Ith (which is less a nightmare for your deck than for a SFM deck i agree), Mutavault/Mishra's Factory, Riptide Lab and so on, or the insane card advantage that Riptide Lab offers every now and then ?

- I don't understand why you play 1 PtE and 3 Bolts instead of 4 Bolts. Bolts is clearly better imo. It's not like you didn't have removal to exile creatures already. When people play only 5 or 6 removals main deck, i can understand that they want only white removals so that they don't have to fetch red mana but as you chose to play Bolts, i don't.

- Concerning your sideboard, why do you play Firespout over Wrath of God. The additionnal mana seems worth being able to kill Thrun, random Emrakul or Progenitus, flying creatures (oh !! just noticed it, it doesn't kill your Hawk which is nice lol) but still ! i'm not convinced that Firespout is better. RUG Tempo was overplayed in France one month ago, and as you're not splashing green, it doesn't kill Delver of Secret :( , and neither Tarmogoyf, nor KoTR in other decks...

Nevertheless, i have a big tournement in Paris in ten days and i will very likely play a very similar version of yours. Can you tell me what are the good and the bad matchups of your version and the average winning pourcentage ratio if possible ? I will be able to test after Friday, when my exams will be over.

klaus

01-04-2012, 01:44 PM

I don't have the time to answer properly.
in brief:
- I play 2 wraths in the sb. atm
- I don't have percentages on MUs, but I'd probably discourage you to take this deck to a tournament (no offense) if you haven't tested thoroughly yourself, anyway
- there are dozens of recurring situations that make plenty of experience necessary
- I don't miss utility lands cause the manabase kicks ass - B2B is just a bonus - I could see 2-3 Factories making it in the deck though
- that singleton PtE is actually better than the 4th Bolt. The only thing that really bothers me about PtE is that it sucks in the early game, but with just one you hardly ever have them in your starting 10.

miko

01-04-2012, 04:28 PM

I would not board in Disenchant vs. Maverick. Just let them play their equipments. You have enough removal. The only card you have to play around is Choke.
Everything else you can handle via removal.

Five Swords (1 Path) is obligatory in a meta that has so many Maverick lists. You have to kill Knight just before it gets active. As soon as it can fetch Bog you lose your graveyard. That can be crucial because you cannot use your Snapcasters anymore...

I'm not sure if I would play Hawks. Are they really better than the Stoneforge-package?

It is possible to cut one Jace the Mind Sculptor and add one Ajani Vengeant, I think. I will at least give it a try.

klaus

01-05-2012, 09:33 AM

I would not board in Disenchant vs. Maverick. Just let them play their equipments. You have enough removal. The only card you have to play around is Choke.
That's exactly why I'll board in 2 Disenchants against Maverick any time of the day.

I'm not sure if I would play Hawks. Are they really better than the Stoneforge-package?
It's hard to say, cause both fulfill different purposes.
Hawks and 1 flashbacked BS have the potential to provide enough C/A to just plow through anything, while the blade package can pose a serious threat in itself.
What I like about the Hawk package: the shuffled back Hawks become anything you need (removal, counterspell, Jace) and take up merely 4 instead of 6 slots.
Plus they blank opposing removal (and artifact hate for that matter) better, since losing SFM (--> Batterskull) hurts more than losing a Hawk.

Shaka1333

01-05-2012, 12:12 PM

Haha, don't worry :) . I have been playing UW since i began to play legacy one year ago and my first deck was ... guess what ? Stoneblade with Squadron Hawk/Brainstorm interactions. I had been the precursor of Squadron Hawk in my era when Mental Misstep was not banned and i had quite a good win pourcentage with it (around 80-85%).

I'm not saying that i'm a master or anything but i think i can play well the deck quite quickly and it fits well my playstyle.

So, the real question is : Do you think this deck can win a 150-200 people tournament or not ?

Back on the deck, I would also bring Disenchant all day against Maverick. I mean, Affinity, MUD and Enchanteress apart, against what would you side in Disenchants if you don't side them in against Maverick ?!

My last big hesitation about the deck is Back to Basics, do you side it in against others decks than Maverick, RUG, Bant and Team America ? Is it really worth two slots ? I would gladly play a couple of Spell Pierce in the side as i think your matchup against combo is not that good.

miko

01-05-2012, 04:58 PM

Agreed on boarding in Disenchant vs. Maverick.
What do your boarding plans look like against this very deck?

I would board out Spell Snare and add 2 Wraths as well as Disenchant.
Would you board out Counterspells?
Because I would like to add 3 Lavamancer as well as my Elspeth from the board.

What do you think?

For reference: Here is my current list:

4 Tundra
1 Riptide Labatory
1 Snow-Covered Plains
6 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
= 24

4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Ajani Vengeant (-1 Jace + Ajani - I want to give it a try)
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:

2 Wrath of God
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Disenchant
3 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
1 Elspeth, the Knight Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Purify the Grave

klaus

01-06-2012, 12:07 PM

I think Lavamancer and Wrath don't go well together for obvious reasons.
With 24 land, I'd play 3 Wrath in the board - together with all your MD's spot removal you'll destroy most creature based decks.
You really won't need more creature hate imo.

Now there you go - what are you going to do with those 2 bonus SB slots?
:wink:
-
BTW: I really love your deck!
Only change I'd definitely consider is -1 land +1 Ponder.

miko

01-06-2012, 02:32 PM

You are really sold on this single ponder, aren't you?

I know that Lavamancer and Wrath have a bit of a synergy but I play him to slow the opponent down. In some matchups I even do not board in Wrath but go for 3 Lavamancers instead. I mean against UR delver I would rather have Lavamancer than Wrath. And I think he is a powerhouse in this matchup, because he handles like every creature your opponent plays and might force the op to waste a piece of burn that could have hit me.

Shaka1333

01-06-2012, 03:02 PM

I've just noticed it but you actually don't play Force of Will miko ...

I think you have too much removal in your whole deck (deck + side). I mean you want to side in 3 Grim, 2 WoG, 1 Elsepth, 2 Surgical Extraction if they play Punishing Fire and 2 Disenchant so 8 or 10 cards but there are already only good cards against Maverick in your deck.

Spell Snare, Counterspell and Vendilion Clique are the worst card in your maindeck against Maverick but there are still totally fine/playable.

Your proportion of cards you want to side in and cards you would be glad to side out is totally disproportionate which is a sign of a non optimised sidedeck.

If we take your combo match up, so ANT/Past in Flammes (the combo deck) : you don't play FoW, you have no real good cards after sideboard (REB et Extraction are ok but not great) and you have a extremely slow clock, so basically you have a catastotrophic matchup, probably close to 20/80...

After, that's a question of your own metagame, in which tournaments you are going to play and what are your objectives but i think there is some room for easy and fast improvement.

klaus

01-06-2012, 03:24 PM

I've just noticed it but you actually don't play Force of Will miko ...
I'm counting 56 cards :-)

Shaka1333

01-06-2012, 03:27 PM

Well ! In that case, i like your deck a lot more :p

But still maybe, a bit too much removals :p

miko

01-06-2012, 03:36 PM

I've just added four FoW.
If you look at Lightning Bolts and Engineered Explosives and see them as cards that serve multiple purposes it's not too much removal in the list.

I mean Explosives destroy Plainswalker (opposing Jace, etc.), can get rid of Enchantments, Artifacts, etc. (and even Goblin tokens - Empty the Warrens). Using Lightning Bolts you can be able to kill like 1-2 turns faster than without them. I recently played against Burn and was able to kill him using Bolt and snapcasted it. That's six more damage.

But you are right: The list is very removal heavy.

What would you chance about the sideboard?

Shaka1333

01-06-2012, 04:04 PM

I would make these changes :

Maindeck : +1 Elsepth - Ajani

Sideboard :

2 Surgical Extraction
1 or 2 Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus (i have been traumatized by Dredge in my last big tournament so i won't play anyless than 4 antigrave cards in my SD anymore)
1 or 2 Disenchant (you already have 2 EE main deck which serves kind of the same purpose)
3 or 4 Pyroblast
2 or 3 Wrath of God

Then it depends of your metagame :
2/3 Spell Pierce if you expect a lot of Combo and Control
2/3 Meddling Mage if you expect a lot of combo
1/2 Timely Reinforcements I really feel like our bladeless version need a gain life to improve our match up against Zoo, Burn, U/R Counterburn and RUG Temp

That would looks fine to me. But again, optimizing a sideboard is very hard and should be done according to your expecting metagame, a thing that i can't do for you :p

Shaka1333

01-07-2012, 04:37 AM

I've been thinking about Back to Basics klaus and basically amoung the best decks, you are "only" going to side it in against Maverick and RUG Tempo (and maybe Bant but it's less played). The problem is that both decks are going to bring 3 or 4 Pyroblast (RUG for sure and GWr version of Maverick which is the best) and so they have this much outs to destroy your lock and make this 2 sideboard slots nearly useless ... slots that could have been used to play something else, something probably better like Spell Pierce.

klaus

01-07-2012, 01:10 PM

Just won a small (but competitive) local tourney with the following list:

4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer (didn't have the 3rd Bolt)
4 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 STP
1 PtE
2 Bolt
2 EE
4 FOW
3 Snare
2 CS
1 Isochron Scepter (I kind of like it and it's not random at all with all those instants MD/SB)
(38)
4 Strand
4 Tarn
1 A. Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic
1 Mountain
1 Plains
6 Island
1 Riptide Lab.

SB:
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Wrath
1 Pte
2 Disenchant
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Back to Basics (won me 2 games)
1 Meddling Mage (random choice)
-
The deck flowed extremely well and the only thing that I'd currently change about the MD is -1 Mancer +1 Bolt

Shaka1333

01-07-2012, 02:56 PM

Congratulations !

So you removed the Squadron Hawk ?!
What did you play against ?

klaus

01-09-2012, 08:06 AM

Congratulations !

So you removed the Squadron Hawk ?!
What did you play against ?

Yep I really came to like Clique again :tongue:
I played against Maverick (Shackles won me G1)
CB-Stone Blade (REBs won this game)
UGB Confidant/Snapcaster.dec (Jace just went all the way twice)
UW Thopter Control (brought in 12 cards G2)

anwei

01-30-2012, 05:16 PM

Has anyone tried using Punishing Fire in here? I realize that Punishing Fire and Snapcaster cover some similar territory (using GY, Removal) poorly together.
But they also both allow for main-decking gobs of (virtual) removal spells which are quite versatile, if you don't need the removal.

Something like:

3 Tundra
2 Volcanic
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Strand
3 Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Riptide Lab
0 Academy Ruins?
(24 Land)

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Punishing Fire
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace
2 Elspeth

Is this thematic unity in the flexibility? Or doing the same thing poorly in two ways?

klaus

02-07-2012, 08:39 AM

Hey folks - this is the final version of the deck that I ended up with - the list has been performing very well for me!

UWR Snapcaster Control

4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Brainstorm
2 Opt -----------> most debatably choice - but I kind of disliked Ponder for its sorceryness and want something "scepterable" as well. --- thoughts?

1 Vedalken Shackles
4 STP
1 PtE
3 Bolt
2 EE

4 FOW
3 Snare
2 CS

1 Isochron Scepter (surprisingly has earned its slot)

(38)

4 Strand
4 Tarn
1 A. Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Island
1 Riptide Lab.
1 Karakas

SB:
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Wrath
1 Pte
2 Disenchant
4 Surgical Extraction
3 meta slots

Iron Buddha

02-07-2012, 09:36 AM

klaus

02-07-2012, 11:19 AM

What's the deal with Opt/Ponder? Do you think this is needed to balance the deck out?
You can just as well cut them, and add up redundancy. I personally would cut -2 Opt, +1 land, +1 CS, -1 Clique, +1 Elspeth/Shackles/any other bomb.

More often than not you're not in need of additional "counter magic" or "that land" - you might be desperately looking for creature removal or a Jace to seal the deal etc. - cantrips are all of the above and make sure you draw what you need.
Cantrips make sure you come out on top in most "topdeck wars".
Plus they harmonize extremely well Snappy - more often than not you're not able to flashback that piece of counter magic / removal you've got in your gy. - recycling cantrips is always an option though.
I'm positive 6 cantrips is an adequate number for any snappy deck.

However, as mentioned before: I'm not very happy with Opt, since it doesn't dig so well. Ponder is suboptimal due to its sorceryness - I want to have my mana open during my opponents' turn either to have it available for counter magic / clique or to bluff such stuff.

Edit: I have to admit Elspeth is tempting for this deck, though I have the feeling, I'd need to up the land count to 23 to be able to include her.

serendib

02-08-2012, 03:57 PM

2 Opt -----------> most debatably choice - but I kind of disliked Ponder for its sorceryness and want something "scepterable" as well. --- thoughts?

2 Gitaxian Probe. give them a try.
they give you a big strategic advantage vs any opponent.

GradStudentGuy

02-10-2012, 06:01 PM

Cut Opt for 2x Fire and Ice. Its a can-trip when you really need it or more removal. Its also one of the best card to imprint on scepter.

learntolove6

04-11-2012, 04:57 PM

would anyone still recommend this deck to play? has anyone had recent success with it?

klaus

04-12-2012, 02:59 AM

would anyone still recommend this deck to play? has anyone had recent success with it?

I came to think it's inferior to Blade Control. Not enough pressure is the key issue.

anwei

04-12-2012, 12:55 PM

I came to think it's inferior to Blade Control. Not enough pressure is the key issue.

Ditto, though I still don't like SFM (in UW Blade) against anything else in the format that's attackng with dudes.

I'd like to try adding some more guys (Mindcensor, Magus of the Moon, and Lavamancer all might add different things) to have something else relevant happening on the board.

learntolove6

04-12-2012, 02:58 PM

im going to a tournament on saturday and im just not terribly happy with what i was running (UWr stoneblade). i wanted to brew up a list and try this deck but i don't know if that's worth it.

yadda

04-17-2012, 01:03 AM

I am currently testing a deck that i guess falls into this category.

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [A] Tundra
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
2 [JGC] Wasteland
1 [CMD] Island (4)

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Geist of Saint Traft
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
3 [FNM] Fire/Ice
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [PD2] Chain Lightning
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
1 [V10] Isochron Scepter
2 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 1 [V10] Isochron Scepter

I took the isochron scepter tech from this thread but otherwise i had brainstormed the rest independently. the deck seems to have a pretty solid matchup against the various delver strategies and just generally has game against anything that tries to attack with smaller creatures. Maverick is not the best matchup in the world just because an active Mom or Thrun just ruins its day but otherwise i think its pretty solid. posting decent numbers against High Tide as well. i haven't tested against TES or Ad Naus but i would guess they are probably favored very slightly against us. fortunately there is a lot we can do to improve the deck's combo matchup if you are going into a meta where you expect to see it.

as far as card choices i like the aggressive nature of delver a lot but vendilion clique may be a better choice. there is also a solid argument to be made for more counter magic and less burn spells/cantrips. i would love to hear what you guys think.