faithless welder MUD

[mordraid]

I've been toying around with artifacts lately and i tried to build both kuldotha forgemaster combo and meandeck mud. I've found out that both decks are strong but they also goes out pretty random sometimes.

When i saw the first card spoiled from the upcoming set, i immediatly thought it was the missing link in that kind of deck. Faithless loothing will add consistency with card drawing and a superb graveyard fueling for goblin welder.

So far testing proves that it greatly improves the deck. I've tested against, U/R delver, Maverick, Burn, B/W stoneblade.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/arcana/847_card.jpghttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=13001&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=21399&type=card

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/847

Here's the list i've come up so far. I still think it needs some tweaking, mostly in sideboard area.

Creatures:

4x goblin welder
4x metalworker
4x wurmcoil engine
4x lodestone golem

Artifacts:

4x tangle wire
4x grim monolith
4x voltaic key
2x crucible of worlds
3x mox diamond
1x mox opal

Spells:

4x faithless loothing
2x karn liberated

Lands:

4x great furnace
4x city of traitors
4x ancient tomb
4x wasteland
2x rishadan port
2x buried ruin

Most choices are pretty obvious but i can defenitly see some people questioning the pick of tangle wire. Tangle wire and goblin welder are pretty sweet togtheter and combined with the land disruption package (wasteland-crucible-rishadan port) it is often what was needed to disrupt a fast start like nacatl or delver.

My current ideas of changes would be lowering to 3 the number of voltaic key and going to a 3/1 ratio of rishadan port buried ruin instead of a 2/2.
Comments are greatly appreciated.

[Michael Keller]

I have been looking into a sort of "MUD-Reanimator" hybrid the last few weeks abusing Faithless Looting. I think it's a perfectly viable strategy, and one that certainly warrants looking at.

I was also testing Gamble as sort of an "Entomb" of sorts, and it was actually pretty nifty in most circumstances. It also operates really well with Looting, as you can still flash it back if it's the only card in your hand upon resolution of Gamble. Gamble would also work extraordinarily well with an active Welder and no cards in hand, but there would have to be some other recursive element like Trash for Treasure in there somewhere.

Very interested in the future of this archetype.

[mordraid]

What bugs me with the addition of gamble is the red mana sources. Going up in the number of red cards would mean cutting on other lands that are pretty useful to disrupt opponents lands.

Your testings included how many red mana producers ?

[Koby]

I like the addition of Sundering Titan and Spine of Ish Sah, especially with the new rules change for optional triggers. Platinum Angel/Emperion are also good choices.

I'm thinking that a :u::r: based list to use Careful Study as well for more consistency, and have the option for Force of Will too. I'm not sure MUD is the best shell for Welder shenanigans, but it can work. Hard casting spells is too bothersome; let's try to cheat stuff into play:

4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition/Thirst for Knowledge

4 Goblin Welder

1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Mindslaver

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Shivan Reef
3 Mox Opal

For reference (an old Extended list from 2004)
2 Bosh, Iron Golem [can replace with Wurmcoil Engine or Myr Battlesphere]
4 Goblin Welder
3 Hapless Researcher [Faithless Looting]
2 Platinum Angel [Emperion?]
4 Sundering Titan

3 Cabal Therapy [go upto 4]
4 Careful Study
4 Chrome Mox [Mox Opal?]
4 Exhume
4 Intuition
4 Reanimate
3 Zombie Infestation
[add some Thoughtseize/FoW?]

4 City of Brass
1 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
4 Shivan Reef
2 Sulfurous Springs
2 Underground River
3 Vault of Whispers

Maybe these can start to generate some ideas.

[mordraid]

i like the idea of cheating stuff into play but i'm not really sure this deck wants force of will. You'll want to cast those brainstorm, intuitions and studies, not pitching them to force of will.

I know that hardcasting stuff may be bothersome but it provides a 2nd way of putting fatties into play.

[Malchar]

You could try using blood moon to take advantage of your monored deck color. Phyrexian metamorph is also great for utility. If they try to kill a welder, you can recur a metamorph to copy it. Gamble is also great. You could also try using smoke stack if you wanted to go that direction. It works good with recurring wurmcoils or just a crucible.

As for sideboard, I would be a bit worried against storm combo. I don't think lodestone golem is particularly amazing on its own. Tormod's crypt seems obvious against any graveyard-based opponents since its recurrable and only hits the opponent.

[mordraid]

You could try using blood moon to take advantage of your monored deck color. Phyrexian metamorph is also great for utility. If they try to kill a welder, you can recur a metamorph to copy it. Gamble is also great. You could also try using smoke stack if you wanted to go that direction. It works good with recurring wurmcoils or just a crucible.

As for sideboard, I would be a bit worried against storm combo. I don't think lodestone golem is particularly amazing on its own. Tormod's crypt seems obvious against any graveyard-based opponents since its recurrable and only hits the opponent.

It's true that lodestone golem on it's own doesn't do a really good job. Sideboard against storm would need trinisphere or something like that.

I've thought about including smokestack and take a more prison-stax build with welder. Going that route would mean eliminating mana acceleration through voltaic key and grim monolith. I still think that metalworker deserves to be in that kind of deck.

[mordraid]

I've done a bunch of testing since last time i posted. I have come to some conclusions. First, the deck needs more reliability. Second, it need to go either aggro or control.

I've decided to make it a more control-prison oriented deck.

Here are the things i've added:

+4 smokestack
+4 sphere of resistence
+1 crucible of worlds
+2 mountain

-4 voltaic key
-4 grim monolith
-1 karn liberated
-2 buried ruin

There is still a karn left in the deck but it will be soon gone. We don't have enought mana to cast karn without grim monolith and voltaic key.

I prefer to slow my opponent down than speeding up and see if it works. Adding sphere of resistance and smokestack make the deck really consistent and the smokestack is doing a pretty good job at feeding goblin welder.

Further testings gotta be made, but so far so good !

As now, the deck looks a little like this:

Creatures:

4x goblin welder
4x metalworker
4x wurmcoil engine
4x lodestone golem

Artifacts:

4x tangle wire
4x smokestack
4x sphere of resistance
3x crucible of worlds
3x mox diamond
1x mox opal

Spells:

4x faithless loothing
1x karn liberated

Lands:

4x great furnace
4x city of traitors
4x ancient tomb
4x wasteland
2x rishadan port
2x mountain

[Tao]

Your list needs ~2 Lightning Greaves.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Lightning Greaves is better in MUD with more fatties, this deck only has 8 if you include lodestone golem. Some MUD builds play more dedicated fatties (like Platinum Emperion, Sundering Titan and more Karns) and I think Greaves is more effective there. Don't get me wrong, it's a great card and good in this deck, but its already so tight as it is.

If anything I suggest you try and make room for some Phyrexian Metamorphs MD, those things would be bonkers in this deck.

[Malchar]

I'd like to see lightning greaves or some other form of protection used on the welders if nothing else. It's pretty hard to lose if your welders stay alive. Phyrexian metamorph should be in the deck somewhere. You can weld it in as a copy of welder in response to any attempted removal. Another card which I've always liked in this kind of deck is anger. It works amazingly with all your creatures, but you might not have enough mountains in this list to power it.

[Michael Keller]

Was looking into something like this:

[4x] Goblin Welder
[3x] Reanimate
[2x] Exhume
[1x] Animate Dead

[4x] Faithless Looting
[3x] Entomb
[2x] Buried Alive
[1x] Dragon Breath

[4x] Cabal Therapy
[2x] Sensei's Divining Top
[1x] Lion's Eye Diamond

[1x] Sundering Titan
[1x] Myr Battlesphere
[1x] Phyrexian Metamorph
[1x] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
[1x] Inkwell Leviathan
[1x] Duplicant

[1x] Necrotic Ooze
[1x] Triskelion
[1x] Phyrexian Devourer

[4x] Great Furnace
[4x] Vault of Whispers
[4x] Bloodstained Mire
[3x] Badlands
[3x] Mox Opal
[2x] Lotus Petal
[2x] Swamp
[2x] Mountain

Sideboard up for debate. Just something I made out of boredom (usually rare when I post my lists). This is just a raw sketch, but it's something along the lines I was thinking.

[mordraid]

Lightning greaves is, in fact, better in a build with more creatures. I don't think it will help that much aside from being tapped with tangle wire.

I will certaintly add a phyrexian metamorph in the place or the lonely karn liberated.

[edgarps22]

Hollywood I like the idea, and it can do some seriously brutal things, but I also don't like the Ooze package. The deck as it stands would be hard pressed to make it work. Good concept though.

I would say
- Ooze package
+ 1 Battlesphere
+ 2 Wurmcoil Engine

Double Battlesphere can get silly fun REALLY fast with welder shenanigans.

2 more Wurmcoil Engine in the board for the Fish, Stoneblade, Maverick matchups, and Trinispheres for the combo matchup. Seems fun though.

[Michael Keller]

I think you really need to be able to match the speed of fast combo like Storm. There's no reason in a deck capable of recurring broken artifacts that we should sit idly by and allow our match-up to be less than acceptable.

Here are some other options you could try:

- (3) Ooze package.
+ (1) Platinum Angel.
+ (1) Mindslaver.
+ (1) Platinum Emperion.

I think Sharuum the Hegemon could be incredibly powerful here, too. As would Jester's Cap.

Seems better this way and allows you to be a little more resilient against Storm and other similar decks.

[edgarps22]

I can get behind that package. My main problem with the Ooze package is you simply might not have enough to kill the opponent once it hits the field. Adding those protections can be huge, and Platinum Angel can flat win games versus Merfolk game 1.

[(nameless one)]

I was just on the Imperial Painter thread when I realized what about a deck (similiar to Imperial Painter) but instead of running creature-based silver bullets for Imperial Recruiter), use artifact-based silver bullets that can be Gambled and Welded into the field.

Faithless Looting can also be Gambled if needed.

Kinda like the current Meandeck MUD deck but instead of Forgemasters, you'd be using Gamble (and have more Mountains).

[mordraid]

My main concern with the current MUD deck is that it's inconsistent and unreliable. Sometimes you just get the board full of mana and sometimes you get your hand clogged with high casting cost.

I've tried to swich only forgemaster and the deck still got the same problems. That's why i've decided to build a more controllish MUD deck.

[mordraid]

So far, sphere of resistance has been amazing. When cast on 1st turn, if lest un-countered, it's almost game over for many decks. Combined with that tangle wire ans smokestact (two, must counter spells) it can cause some serious problems early on. Removing the mana acceleration artifacts to add "must counter" broken artifact is the way to go.

[Koby]

So far, sphere of resistance has been amazing. When cast on 1st turn, if lest un-countered, it's almost game over for many decks. Combined with that tangle wire ans smokestact (two, must counter spells) it can cause some serious problems early on. Removing the mana acceleration artifacts to add "must counter" broken artifact is the way to go.

What does your list look like now?

[Malchar]

To me, it seems like this deck suffers from a lot of collateral graveyard hate. It should be more resiliant and versatile than reanimator, but when everyone is packing 4+ slots for graveyard hate including surgical extraction, it's hard for this deck to shine.

I've been thinking about playing a shell that consists of these cards for a long time:
stoneforge mystic
goblin welder
imperial recruiter

Mystic with batterskull is good at stabilizing on its own, and you can also search for lightning greaves for the welder. Shroud is clearly good, but so is haste. You can start using the welder immediately. You can also move it over to whichever creatures you weld back, so you won't need to use anger or dragon breath.

The mystic also simply gives you card advantage, and finds an artifact to start the welding process. Worst-case scenario, you can just attack with your small utility creatures wearing equipment.

The recruiter might not be that great in this deck, but in addition to mystic and welder, it can search for duplicant, phyrexian metamorph, phyrexian devourer, triskelion, and metalworker to name a few. After you have it in your hand, you could discard it to faithless looting, although this is obviously much slower than using intuition or entomb. Perhaps it would be better to just splash into a third color.

[(nameless one)]

I wrote a mini-primer on MTG Salvation about Welder MUD feat. FLooting. I have been great success with it within the local meta and on Cockatrice.

Here's what I posted there:

-----------------

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Great Furnace
2x Mountain

4x Goblin Welder
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Sundering Titan

4x Grim Monolith
4x Lotus Petal
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Lightning Greaves
2x Mox Opal
1x Spine of Ish Sah

3x Faithless Looting

3x "slots"

Mana Base:

Ancient Tomb + City of Traitors = They're needed to easily cast all the expensive robots the deck utilizes as early as possible.

Wasteland = Utility land that gets rid of your opponent's utility land. It also helps mana screw your opponent. The colorless mana shouldn't be an issue with this deck.

Mountain + Great Furnace = The deck somehow needs red mana to support both Goblin Welder and Faithless Looting. I used to run a 1-3 split but I wanted my red mana source to be as much Null Rod proof as possible without compromising the utility of having artifact lands. Also getting Sundering Titan on the field with the miser Mountain already on the field sucks when you need to flashback Faithless Looting in the near future.

Ghost Quarter = As I have explained from my previous post, not only it supports Wasteland in getting rid of your opponent's utility land (from Maze of Ith to Tower of Magistrate to name a few problem ones), it can also act as a pseudo-Fetchland to get that Mountain (which also has that nice synergy with Sensei's Divining Top if you really need to shuffle your library)

Mox Opal + Lotus Petal = Another means of red mana source. Also, Lotus Petal can help enable some powerful turn one plays (such as a turn one Lodestone Golem or having shenanigans with Goblin Welder + Faithless Looting right away). Lotus Petal used to be Mox Diamond but throughout my testing, Mox Diamond wasn't really helping the deck when it comes to powerful early turn plays as you need lands along with it. In a deck that runs minimal lands, it is rare to get Mox Diamond going as you want it to. It actually becomes a Mox Opal with a drawback (in this deck, Mox Opal's drawback in rarely an issue). Also, with an active Goblin Welder on the field, you can play tricks with your artifacts because of Lotus Petal being in the graveyard. Goblin Welder essentially gains "tap, sacrifice an artifact: add any color of mana to your mana pool" whereas you'd need to discard a land if you want to Weld in a Mox Diamond back onto the field.

Grim Monolith = Mana artifact that helps you cast mana entensive robots with ease. I used to run Grim Monolith with Voltaic Key but throughout my testing, Key has been dead for the most part when you don't have Grim Monolith. Instead, Goblin Welder plays the roll of Voltaic Key (in junction with Lotus Petal being in the graveyard).

Metalworker = There's a reason why sometimes, this deck is called Metalworker. An unmolested Metalworker can win you games. There's a reason why this card used to be banned.

Robots:

Lodestone Golem = I notice a lot of you have been cutting this robot to three. I think it is wrong as it can set an opponent a turn behind. This robot can be devastating to your opponents if you can get it on the field on turn one (which is not impossible with this deck)

Kuldotha Forgemaster = I have actually cut this to three because the deck can still function without it's aid. While it helps Forging in a Sundering Titan, I find that for the most part I would only activate it if I really need to (such as turning late game Grim Monoliths and Metalworkers into Wurmcoil Engines). Also, I find that the current list has a better means of card selection.

Wurmcoil Engine = I also have cut this to three but because of space issue. It's actually not an issue of searching for it as I find that my current list has a better means of card selection. You might argue why I run a 4-3 Split between Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine. The reason why I do this is because its easier to cast a Lodestone Golem if you cannot get a Metalworker or your Welder-tricks going. Also, you'd rarely Forge in Lodestone Golem over Wurmcoil Engine.

Phyrexian Metamorph = I love this robot. It can be a Goblin Welder protection (copying Welder and have multiple Welder effects on the field to perform tricks), a Snapcaster for "comes into play" robots or just Lodestone Golem 5-6. Sometimes, the two life is worth for what utility it can do. Worse case scenario, its a Goyf wall against an opposing Goyf or a Legendary killer

Sundering Titan = While the hardest robot to hardcast, once it enters the field, it can win you games. It is my favourite Forgemaster target so far.

Spine of Ish Sah = While not really a robot, this acts as a targeted removal for problem permanents. Not a bad Forgemaster target.

Lightning Greaves = It protects utility creatures and gives haste to beaters. I used to run three but having multiples of it sucks. A turn one Greaves followed by an unanswered turn two Metalworker can win you games 95% of the time.

Sensei's Diving Top = Card selection and with this list, it actually works since I have multiple shuffle effects (from Ghost Quarter to Forgemaster). Faithless Looting also helps SDT if the top three cards that you have are actually bad, a luxury the deck didn't have before.

Engine:

Goblin Welder + Faithless Looting = With Faithless Looting, Goblin Welder can actually fall under Metalworker's class: a threat when it becomes active. Before Faithless Looting, Goblin Welder can only act as a means to protect your artifact. Now with Faithless Looting, you actually gain the luxury of using Welder as a means to cheat expensive artifacts onto the field. This actually relieves pressure from Metalworker. Faithless Looting also has that synergy with SDT as it "refreshes" the top three cards of your library for SDT. Goblin Welder also helps turning the deck into Null Rod proof (though the card can still get annoying if you can't get Welder going)

Slots:

I am currently running Tangle Wire on this slot. Throughout my testing, Tangle Wire has been acting as a Time Walk and with Welder tricks, you can actually create a softlock with it against your opponent. I am not going to say that this should be Tangle Wire as it is still a meta-choice. Sometimes, Trinisphere can be better on this slot if there's a lot of combo or tempo in your meta. If you want to get fancy, you can run more Forgemaster targets (though you'd need a fourth Forgemaster). You can even use utility in that spot using Staff of Domination or Crucible of Worlds. If you're really afraid of your pieces, you can use Spellskite on that spot. Personally, I am happy with Tangle Wire on that slot and it does what I want it to do.

Sideboard:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst/Trinisphere
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb

Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst/Trinisphere = The standard against most combo decks. Usually I would side in the Welder package (Welder+Faithless Looting and sometimes SDT) for this package (along with another appropriate hate card from the side board). I find that against Ritual/Storm-based combo decks, the Welder package doesn't really help and the most ideal way to play the deck would be use your early turns for Sphere effects then hardcasting your robot beaters once you've established that lock (going Stompy mode)

Tormod's Crypt = Of all the gravehate, I find this to be the most suiting without actually hindering the deck's game plan.

Phyrexian Revoker = This comes in against ritual based combo to utility permanents. It can stop anything from Lion's Eye Diamond to Qasali Pridemage.

Ratchet Bomb = Believe it or not, if the deck is on Welder mode, CotV at one can actually get annoying. Ratchet Bomb makes sure that CotV at one doesn't hinder you (I've had this against Aggro-Loam and Stompy decks). Also, Ratchet Bomb is very effective against decks that utilizes tokens and decks that use permanents that have a low mana curve


------------------


I'm actually working on a MUD primer as the opening post on the Meandeck MUD doesn't really help.

Hopefully that helped.

[Tao]

Nice primer and deck should be Established soon. You should PM a mod for it. Edit: You should mention other possibler choices, too, not only those of your current list.


For the list: imo there is no way that Ghost Quarter over Mountain/Great Furnace is correct.

[(nameless one)]

Nice primer and deck should be Established soon. You should PM a mod for it.


For the list: imo there is no way that Ghost Quarter over Mountain/Great Furnace is correct.

Thanks. I'm trying to finish a more in-depth one.

Here's my other post on MTG Sally concerning that utility land slot:

-----------

I've tested all these lands (and Mishra's Factory) as my utility lands and heres what I've concluded:

-Crystal Vein: it's good to have extra Sol-lands for mana acceleration but I think having eight is good enough. alex holland is right when it comes to using utility lands instead.

-Barbarian Ring: it's great removing weenie/utility creatures early game but realistically speaking, can you really get seven cards in your graveyard in the early game? If you really want to run it, use it in junction with Crucible of Worlds. That card is good too with Wasteland.

-Buried Ruin: you already have Welder. He's good at what he does. Also, without an active artifact mana-source, Ruin can't really pull off what he does.

-Mishra's Factory: if you're down a beater, it's a great alternative but for the most part in my testing, I've rarely used it as a beater. Not a bad choice but personally I found better options.

-Rishadan Port: for the longest time, I was running this I junction with Wasteland to deny my opponent's the land base of mana and utility once I have my robots going. It's a good way to protect them (I got the tech from Vial Goblins). Then someone suggested this card from here (unfortunately I can't find who but it was an awesome suggestion and thank you for that):

-Ghost Quarter: this card solved a lot of problems I had with the deck. I needed the following in my land base: a means to deny my opponent to use his/her land base for both mana and utility. While Wasteland can do that just fine but sometimes, it needs a backup. That why for the longest time, I've been using Ports. But that didn't solve my other land base problem, which is a reliable means to get red mana sources for Welder (and Faithless Looting, which I run). Though Quarters do not produce red mana, it can be activated to (let say in response to a triggered City of Traitors) to grab a Mountain. Also, if you're desperate to get Welder on the field and you don't have a red mana source, it can do that for you.

[Mantis]

Sneak Attack could be really busted with Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere and obviously Welder to bring them back afterwards. Between Grim Monolith to hardcast them, Looting and Welder to recur them and Sneak Attack to cheat them into play, that appears to be a sufficient number of ways to drop some big monsters.

[daPaule]

Sneak Attack could be really busted with Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere and obviously Welder to bring them back afterwards. Between Grim Monolith to hardcast them, Looting and Welder to recur them and Sneak Attack to cheat them into play, that appears to be a sufficient number of ways to drop some big monsters.

How would this then be better than a usual Sneak Show?

I mean Wurmcoil << Emrakul and they still have Counters, Accel is identical...

[Malchar]

The main advantage that comes to my mind is that you can still cast wurmcoil engine even if you don't draw sneak attack. Sneaking in welders isn't all that bad either. I'm not necessarily convinced that it's worth it to run sneak attack though.