Legacy White Weenie

[MUCGuy]

I'd like to discuss White Weenie in Legacy.

Assume the meta is equal parts of each of the Decks to Beat.

What are the best cards to play in such a meta and what are the trade offs?

The best known white cards may not actually be the best choices to achieve the highest average win rate for the given meta bet I'm sure they're a good starting point.

One of the biggest advantages is the strong game versus mana denial strategies. Spells are cheap and the manabase is solid. I think if it is possible, there should be cards to take control in nearly any given matchup, but is it possible to combine enough of those key cards into a single coherent deck that is solid against them all?

Sample list:
Updated with power cards in matchups in brackets.

4 Icatian Javelineers -> removed (untested)
4 Mother of Runes (extremely versatile card)
4 Student of Warfare [Merfolk]
4 Stoneforge Mystic [Merfolk]
4 Serra Avenger
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain -> Replaced w/ Grand Abolisher [Merfolk, Maverick]
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails (powerful late game)

? Proclamation of Rebirth [control]

4 Swords to Plowshares [Merfolk]

3 Honor of the Pure -> Wrath of God [Merfolk, Maverick]

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Aether Vial

1 Sword of Feast and Famine (interacts well with FoD, and SoW)
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull [Merfolk]

15 Plains
1 Flagstone of Trokair
3 Wasteland [Maverick]

Samurai of the Pale Curtain seems like it could do quite well when protected by a mother of runes. Need testing, but fights: Tamrogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam, Scavenging Ooze, and what else?

Icatian Javelineers, gets thrown in sense there has been some talk over in the Vial Goblins thread that Mogg Fanatic is good in the current meta.

Weathered Wayfarer does not fit well with Student of Warfare, Figure of Destiny, and the equipment plan.

Grand Abolisher is pretty good. Counter stopping reactions to our swords, and attaching is quite good. Gives great information sense opponent can't hide things untill EOT. Has many other benefits as well.

Wrath of God combo's amazing with equips/batterskull. And if Grand Abolisher is out on the field you can play it at will, netting potentially massive card advantage against tribal, as well as green beat down decks that use accelerators.

Proclamation of Rebirth White Weenie staying power/card advantage. The forecast can't be countered so it's quite good against blue based strategies! I havn't quite tested it yet but i'd imagine at least one spot is worth it. Putting Mom or Student into play seems good. Or recurring, Nova Cleric or Salvage Scout seems like it has potential after game 1.

Lately i've been reducing creature count.
What else does white weenie bring to the table in Legacy?

[optml]

I don't know if you've ommitted them for a reason, but I always think that the 2-power 1drops are handy. (the Isamaru's and Savannah lions of the World).

I would be tempted with adding some promise of bunrei (in my opinion a very underplayed card) in the sideboard to deal with mass destruction.

Perhaps one Emeria, the Sky ruin, although I am aware that it could be wastelanded.

[jhhdk]

As long as you run an equipment package, I think Kor Duelist deserves considderation. I'd also considder adding Meekstone and Ensnaring Bridge (because of onesidedness) and removing SoLaS because of dissynergy.

[mpe]

I think Soltari Priest is still strong in the point he has protection RED against Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire. The synergy with some equipment is great too.

Here is my list.

4 x 《Mother of Runes》
4 x 《Serra Avenger》
4 x 《Soltari Priest》
4 x 《Stoneforge Mystic》

2 x 《Elspeth, Knight-Errant》

3 x 《Enlightened Tutor》
4 x 《Swords to Plowshares》

2 x 《Island Sanctuary》

4 x 《AEther Vial》
3 x 《Mask of Memory》
1 x 《Umezawa’s Jitte》
1 x 《Sword of Fire and Ice》
1 x 《Batterskull》
1 x 《Crucible of Worlds》

18 x 《Plains》
4 x 《Wasteland》

We can rock with Island Sanctuary which works like 2 CMC Moat so it's great against beat down decks + we can draw the card with Mask of Memory or SoFaI.

I sometimes take in Painter combo there. If I rarely see SnT combo deck or Merfolk, I'll use this deck again. Anyways, I believe Mono-White Weenie deck is strong in Legacy.

[luckme10]

In his last article, Caleb Durward made a suggestion for white weenie.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-on-a-budget/
Here's the list:

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Horizon Canopy
15 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Aven Mindcensor
2 Grand Abolisher
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[boneclub24]

Back when I was trying this, I ran AEther Vial and Cataclysm. Oblivion Ring and extra flagstones would also be a must.

[Wizened Cenn]

This is what I would play today:

4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
2 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
7 Plains
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Mother of Runes
2-4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Squadron Hawk <- Just give it a try, it really is awesome
~2-4 Other removal (Path to Exile/Oblivion Ring)
~7-11 Other creatures (Grand Abolisher, Jotun Grunt, Serra Avenger, Leonin Relic-Warder, Samurai of the Pale Curtain)

Nice idea on Samurai of the Pale Curtain, I hadn't seen that before, but it looks like it could be pretty good.


Things I wouldn't play:

Figure of Destiny - Only really good against Merfolk, which should be a good match up anyway, will just eat removal in response to the pump. There are better one drops already.

Honor of the Pure - Really bad lord/not a body. I would so much rather have another creature, which would likely give you the same amount of power on the board. It could be better in different versions of the deck, but I wouldn't run it.

Sword of X and Y - There is a huge difference between five and four mana (Umezawa's Jitte), I found that I almost always played and equipped on the same turn, and so Jitte is much faster. Jitte closes games against creature based decks, and often times continues to function even if the equipped creature dies. I have never played with Sword of Feast and Famine, however, so this may deserve a spot. But Fire/Ice and Light/Shadow were weak, and Body/Mind and War/Peace are just bad.

Elite Vanguard/Savannah Lions/Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Again, there are better 1 drops, 2/2's or 2/1's don't impress anyone in Legacy. Its just miserable when staring down those 3/2's with flying or Zoo's 2/3's. White Weenie isn't the fastest deck, so you might as well run one-drops that have value later (Mom/Wayfarer/Figure)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Speaking of facing down 2/3s, Student of Warfare seems pretty good. If you don't want to run it in a one drop slot, cut a two drop and reduce your exposure to Spell Snare while giving you a dude that's pretty amazing with Jitte.

Considering you're running Wayfarer and Hawks, have you thought about Empyrial Plate as an equipment at all? If you don't find yourself emptying your hand it might be well worth a test run.

[ScatmanX]

-I don't get the appeal for Batterskull in a deck like this. You have tons of guys. Something cheap that made them bigger seems better than a card that takes forever to come into the battlefield.

-Empyrial Plate seems nice only if you run Hawks, otherwise seems lousy.

[NeoTech]

Speaking of facing down 2/3s, Student of Warfare seems pretty good. If you don't want to run it in a one drop slot, cut a two drop and reduce your exposure to Spell Snare while giving you a dude that's pretty amazing with Jitte.

Student of Warfare is amazing, possibly the best turn 1 play WW can get, so on turn 2 you can take him to level 2 and now should take on any opposing creatures with no problem... Until he take a Bolt to the face :laugh:

Right now my WW variant is running pretty smoothly. I main deck additional removal, 3 Path to Exile and 4 Swords to Plowshares. It's almost a must in the meta. I also run with lots of sac lands, 8 Sac Lands, 8 Plains, and 4 Wasteland. I haven't used Weathered Wayfarer yet, and don't really see a reason to. I would rather be playing threats then pulling lands from my deck with his ability. Plus I don't run any land toolbox, again not seeing a reason too.

I also have some ancient tech that yall should check out. I used to run this card all the time "back in the day" Eye for an Eye. And now I run one in my main deck just because its fun if the game goes long, and can potentially make a game go to draw instead of a loss.

[TsumiBand]

-I don't get the appeal for Batterskull in a deck like this. You have tons of guys. Something cheap that made them bigger seems better than a card that takes forever to come into the battlefield.

-Empyrial Plate seems nice only if you run Hawks, otherwise seems lousy.

Empyrial Plate might kind of combo with Squadron Hawk, but who cares? SoFI is a way better effect than just +x/+x, why worry about assembling a bad Goyf?

Also I agree with the Batterskull sentiment, that's so much more a control card than anything else.

Honestly I don't think I would play this approach to the deck without something like Cataclysm in the main. There's a billion ways to break that card so that it works better for you than your opponent.

Consider a rough framework like this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Razor Golem
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 - 4 Good Equipment cards
4 Cataclysm
2 - 4 Oblivion Ring(?)

2 - 3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 - 4 Ancient Tomb

You have several different ways to make Cataclysm play out well for yourself. Sacrificing Flagstones to net a land, choosing Razor Golem as either creature or artifact, etc.

In addition this strategy would sort of work well with the Squadron Hawk thing, since you can guarantee a bunch of flyers after the Cat.

You could also maindeck Silence - I mean that's a romantic and terrible idea, but deep down inside I want to be the asshole who goes "CATACLYSM GO, UPKEEP SILENCE YOU, WHAT WHAT BITCH WHAT" and thinks it's a good play. Sigh.

[MUCGuy]

Couple good tech finds so far, with Eye for an Eye, and Island Sanctuary.

I'm not sure if Soltari priest is powerful enough to make the cut. What deck does he realy shine against?

Interesting idea with the Sensei's Top.

I want to theory craft a bit with Grand Abolisher on the brain sense I haven't played with it yet.

-It obviously would stop the opponent from countering spells.
-It would also stop our equipment attachment from fizzling vs creature removal.
-Stops Aether Vial from providing combat tricks.
-Oh wow it also stops Sensei Diving Top + Counterbalance shenanigans which is quite huge.
-Defensive Mother of Runes is shut down as well which is huge in the Maverick match up.

Anything important i've missed here? Seems like he might actually be good enough, but it is a hard to call to make sense he is such a weak fighter, in this combat oriented meta.

[mpe]

I'm not sure if Soltari priest is powerful enough to make the cut. What deck does he realy shine against?
First of all, thanks for your checking my previous post.
Well,I belive he is strong in the point

1) Shadow
He won't be blocked by other creatures because we rarely see shadow creatures in Legacy. And shadow really helps to get the trigger of Sowrd of X and Y easier than Flying.

2) Protection RED
He can protect himself without mommy from Lightning Bolt or Punishing fire or Grim Lavamancer. I think weenie deck is week against Punishing Fire combo or Grim Lavamancer so he'll improve the matchup against suck decks.

At least, if I/we will take Island Sanctuary in the deck, he'll shine with it.
By the way, I'll improve the mana base which I posted before like below,

Before:
18 x 《Plains》
4 x 《Wasteland》

After:
15 x 《Plains》
3 x 《Horizon Canopy》 *
4 x 《Wasteland》

*I forgot this card! Synagy with Island Sanctuary and Crucible of Worlds.

[MUCGuy]

My main concern with Island Sanctuary is that is doesn't actually do that much in the current meta.

Maverick has a few fliers and also has enchantment destruction. Maverick also has direct damage.

Merfolk has fliers and an islandwalk lord, as well as counters.

Tempo is playing Delver of Secrets, direct damage, and counter spells.

It seems like a bad idea to base a deck so much around one card that isn't a game winner. Your WW deck seems very much based around Island Sanctuary.

Currently I have two lists, one beats Maverick, the other beats Merfolk, but I haven't been able to beat both yet. And I haven't been able to play the other matches.

[mpe]

My main concern with Island Sanctuary is that is doesn't actually do that much in the current meta.

Maverick has a few fliers and also has enchantment destruction. Maverick also has direct damage.

Merfolk has fliers and an islandwalk lord, as well as counters.

Tempo is playing Delver of Secrets, direct damage, and counter spells.

It seems like a bad idea to base a deck so much around one card that isn't a game winner. Your WW deck seems very much based around Island Sanctuary.

Currently I have two lists, one beats Maverick, the other beats Merfolk, but I haven't been able to beat both yet. And I haven't been able to play the other matches.
As I wrote this in my first post, I'll not use my quoted deck if SnT combo or Merfolk is flooded in the meta. But,

> Maverick has a few fliers and also has enchantment destruction
I can focus on playing Swords to Plowshares to a few fliers. Qasali Pridemage destroys my enchantment but if my mighty equipments is still there, I'll not be pessimistic about it though it's not fair to say that because it would be case by case.

> Merfolk

I recognize Merfolk is tier 2~3 deck now or at least in my meta. The reason why they are in such position is that they are weak against SFM package, I think. If I persist in Island Sanctuary, obiously it's not smart but my quoted deck will be able to fight against them because I have SFM package still.

> It seems like a bad idea to base a deck so much around one card

I agree with this but I don't think my quoted deck is build around Island Sanctuary.
I want to say I'm focusing on making synergy with each cards and I can win without Island Sanctuary. For example,

2) SFM + Batterskull
3) Serra Avenger + Equipment
4) Soltari Priest + Equipment
5) Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland

I need Equipments to fight well but this is the White Weenie deck or White "Human" Weenie deck should do so to survive in Legacy.

[MUCGuy]

Defenitly curious to the numbers it puts up against the decks to beat it's pretty unique as in it is tangetal to my current thinking. It's hard to discount Merfolk sense it is still considered a DTB, but meh.

From testing so far, Student of Warfare + Swords to Plowshares, are extremely effective in the Merfolk match up, as there cheapness allows to dodge soft counters. And they're quite effective with ability to fight well and snipe lords respectively. I haven't tested Figure of Destiny but i'd imagine it would do well do to the same reasons as SoW but a little less effective.

Sword of Light and Shadow
Really strong againt Batterskull (black germ) decks. And fights Knights of the Rel' and Swords to Plowshares.

updated OP.

[Qweerios]

Try Puresteel Paladin with living weapons.

[paeng4983]

Interesting! I was chatting with boneclub24 awhile ago with this deck as one of our topic. I was asking him if W.W. would do good with today's meta because i am planning to use this tomorrow at our year ending legacy tournament here in Southern Manila. He suggested that i should try the W.W. deck that has Cataclysm. Personally, I like his idea of bringing back a D&T similar type, but unfortunately, I don't own a Cataclysm. So far here's my initial builds, which i will have my final tweaks tomorrow morning:

PLAN A.

15 plains
4 wasteland

4 aether vial
1 umezawa's jitte
1 Sword of light and shadow
1 sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull

4 STP
2 oblivion ring

4 mother of runes
4 hero of behold
4 stoneforge mystics
4 Serra Avenger
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Baneslayer Angel

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


or PLAN B.

4 Martyr of Sands
4 Mother of Runes
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Ranger of Eos

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Proclamation of Rebirth

20 Plains

just my two cents
:-)

[paeng4983]

I only finished with a 3-2-0.
won against: merpok, BWg junk and hypergen decks
lost against: elves and affinity

here was my list
21 plains

2 elspeth v.1

4 stp
2 pte
3 o.ring

3 spectral possession

1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
1 jitte

2 soltari priest
4 mother of runes
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 fiend hunter
3 stoneforge mystics
3 baneslayer angel
4 squadron hawk

SB
2 day of judgment
1 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
4 leyline of sanctity
3 journey to nowhere
3 revoke to existence


The deck somehow performed well.
I might remove fiend hunter, or just lessen's number into 2.
i really love that cat relic-warder. It catches my opponents by surprise removing their fetched batterskulls.

[Freggle]

Other cards to consider:

Kor Skyfisher - Great evasive two drop, and can (bounce) untap a land if you miss a land drop, among a myriad of other shenanigans

Ethersworn Canonist - Storm / blue draw strategies

Doomed Traveler - A solid alt opener to Vial or Mom

Leonin Arbiter - Give fetch, opposing Stoneforges, and Natural Orders a thorn in their side. Edit: but weakens your Stoneforge I guess :-/

[Greenpoe]

I only finished with a 3-2-0.
won against: merpok, BWg junk and hypergen decks
lost against: elves and affinity

here was my list
21 plains

2 elspeth v.1

4 stp
2 pte
3 o.ring

3 spectral possession

1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
1 jitte

2 soltari priest
4 mother of runes
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 fiend hunter
3 stoneforge mystics
3 baneslayer angel
4 squadron hawk

SB
2 day of judgment
1 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
4 leyline of sanctity
3 journey to nowhere
3 revoke to existence


The deck somehow performed well.
I might remove fiend hunter, or just lessen's number into 2.
i really love that cat relic-warder. It catches my opponents by surprise removing their fetched batterskulls.

That deck looks extremely mana-intensive. 3 Baneslayer, 2 Elspeth, 3 Stoneforge+equipment, and Squadron Hawks?

[NeoTech]

That deck looks extremely mana-intensive. 3 Baneslayer, 2 Elspeth, 3 Stoneforge+equipment, and Squadron Hawks?

Yeah, i have to agree with Greenpoe. This seems a lot more like Angel Stompy than WW. Though there has always been a special place in my heart for Fiend Hunter, I think that you should cut him and Baneslayer Angel. I also suggest dropping 8 plains for 8 Sac lands. You want to play this as you would any aggro deck so you don't want to be drawing land late game, best to thin out your deck of lands so you are drawing threats and removal.

My mana base, as I have stated earlier, is as follows:

8 - Plains
4 - Wasteland
4 - Windswept Heath
4 - Flooded Strand

Its simple and gets the job done. But my mana curve is also much lower than what you ran with. So obviously adjust it your requirements.

This is the list that goes with the above land.

Creatures: 26
4 - Mother of Runes
4 - Student of Warfare
4 - Stoneforge Mystic
4 - Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 - Mirran Crusader
3 - Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 - Serra Avenger

Spells: 14
4 - Swords to Plowshares
3 - Path to Exile
2 - Seal of Cleansing
1 - Oblivion Ring
1 - Sword of Fire and Ice
1 - Umezawa's Jitte
1 - Sword of Feast and Famine
1 - Batterskull


This deck plays as good as it looks. This is likely the list I will take to local tournaments.

[MUCGuy]

High land count is perfectly fine in white weenie. With student of warfare and equips we have plenty of play even into high mana counts.

And I really like eight-and-a-half-tails, esp. when coupled with lands/sword WB/aether vial.

@paeng4983 Never seen Proclamation of Rebirth before, i think it has potential.

@Freggle Cannonist is solid SB material maybe even mainboard in some versions. Doomed Traveler looks interesting will test for sure sense i've been playing with a wrath o god build lately.

@NeoTech How much have you tested and what are your best/worst match ups with the build?

[Greenpoe]

Don't play fetchlands just for deck-thinning. It's been proven ad nauseam that thinning the deck is insignificant, especially with Stifle running around and the rise of Lightning Bolt decks. You should probably cut Disenchant for Leonin Relic-Warder, too. Isamuru isn't really playable anymore, either. A 2/2 for 1 isn't exactly great.

[_erbs_]

What about something like this

Creatures [27]
4 mother of runes
2 weathered wayfarer
4 serra avenger
4 soltari priest
1 spellskite
4 stoneforge mystic
2 leonine relic warder
3 mirran crusader
3 fiend hunter

Lands [22]
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
9 plains
3 flooded strand

Spells [11]
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow / feast and famine
1 umezawa's jitte

SB [15]
4 ethersworn canonist
3 thorn of amethyst
2 enlightened tutor
2 tormods cypt
1 relic of progenitus
1 disenchant
2 elspeth knight errant

[Qweerios]

Try 4 Horizon Canopy.

[nedleeds]

What about something like this

Creatures [27]
4 mother of runes
2 weathered wayfarer
4 serra avenger
4 soltari priest
1 spellskite
4 stoneforge mystic
2 leonine relic warder
3 mirran crusader
3 fiend hunter

Lands [22]
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
9 plains
3 flooded strand

Spells [11]
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow / feast and famine
1 umezawa's jitte

SB [15]
4 ethersworn canonist
3 thorn of amethyst
2 enlightened tutor
2 tormods cypt
1 relic of progenitus
1 disenchant
2 elspeth knight errant

I think Mangara rolls Fiend Hunter in most decks with 4 x Vial and 1 or more Karakas.

[_erbs_]

@nedleeds
mangara is slow mechanic thats why i didn't put it in, while fiend hunter is like gatekeeper of malakir. And if you add the mangara mechanic you need to somehow tweak the other pieces to support the idea. Don't think of this as a DT deck but rather like how goblins use the same strategy to slow down opponents.

@Qweerios
lol i totally forgot about horizon canopy, yeah canopy would be much better over fetch.

[paeng4983]

I just ran a rough draft of my W.W.
And, WW can be converted to a control (& at the same time aggro).
With ethersworn, arbiter, warder, hero of behold, stoneforge, mother of runes, mangara, etc as your utility guys, plus vial, and equipments; not to mention STP, PTE O,ring etc, the deck can go toe to toe vs. anydeck in today's meta.

[NeoTech]

@NeoTech How much have you tested and what are your best/worst match ups with the build?

I have been testing off and on on mws. I have beat decks like Maverick, MBC, BUG, Goblins, and a few random decks that never got off the ground enough for me to see what it was lol. I have yet to play against Stone Blade, Dredge, and reanimator.

I feel very comfortable with the list, Mirran Crusader is a must main deck. This current meta loves to abuse KotR and Goyf and he gets around both. Obviously siding in Silver Knight in the Goblin & RDW match up.

[ReinVos]

To build a competitive white weenie deck in legacy, you need to consider that you need to do something different than Death & Taxes, another mono white creature-based deck.

For that reason I would play as few utility guys as possible. If you don't, the question; why don't you just play death & taxes (or maverick for that matter) keeps cropping up.

I really like the list NeoTech posted. It has some quick beats as well as the needed utility, like Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic. I don't like Serra Avenger though. Jotun Grunt comes to mind although I'm not sure if he can be played alongside Samurai.

[NeoTech]

To build a competitive white weenie deck in legacy, you need to consider that you need to do something different than Death & Taxes, another mono white creature-based deck.

For that reason I would play as few utility guys as possible. If you don't, the question; why don't you just play death & taxes (or maverick for that matter) keeps cropping up.

I really like the list NeoTech posted. It has some quick beats as well as the needed utility, like Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic. I don't like Serra Avenger though. Jotun Grunt comes to mind although I'm not sure if he can be played alongside Samurai.

I tested Jotun Grunt and though he generally has great synergy with sac lands and great against dredge, he generally didn't see much play, so after tweaking and testing Serra Avenger made the cut, best turn 4 play 9 times out of 10.

[sillyandrew]

I think i'd include isamaru as a singleton in just about every shape ww can take. one isamaru, and four students of warfare ensures that you really get that awesome one drop every time.

I also really think that I'd run 7-8 removal, no matter what. whether it be 3-4 stp or 3-4 pte, I'd always lean towards more removal maindeck.

i feell, pale curtain > jotun grunt in this deck, unless you're piling up fetchlands, wastelands and 8 instant removal to fill your yard. I think you run 3 of whichever mainbdeck.

how do we feel about meekstone? ...probably SB, if at all.

and what about an I lightened tutor package? is there enough room alongside SFM? 3 enlightened tutors, 1 top, 1 meekstone, etc...

[NeoTech]

I think i'd include isamaru as a singleton in just about every shape ww can take. one isamaru, and four students of warfare ensures that you really get that awesome one drop every time.

I also really think that I'd run 7-8 removal, no matter what. whether it be 3-4 stp or 3-4 pte, I'd always lean towards more removal maindeck.

i feell, pale curtain > jotun grunt in this deck, unless you're piling up fetchlands, wastelands and 8 instant removal to fill your yard. I think you run 3 of whichever mainbdeck.

how do we feel about meekstone? ...probably SB, if at all.

and what about an I lightened tutor package? is there enough room alongside SFM? 3 enlightened tutors, 1 top, 1 meekstone, etc...

In my opinion Meekstone is better off in a sideboard, but even still, its better off just being more removal, such as Oblivion Ring.
Enlightened Tutor does allow for a tool box of utilities, however it is slow. We never want to cast it turn 1, and we always want whatever we search for to go to our hard and not the top of our library. Of there was ever room for Enlightened Tutor I would straight up switch all of them to Tops or removal.

[scottjmorrow]

Hey, all. I just had a lengthy response typed, but I lost the whole thing because of the site’s auto-logout function, which I can’t figure out how to turn off.

I just got into Legacy a few months ago, and I’ve been playing WW since that time. It’s as much a function of a limited card pool as anything else, but I do love white weenie, and I’m going to play it as long as it’s viable.

The article by Caleb that is referenced above includes a variation of the list that I sent him. I’ll post the version that I’m trying at the moment, and below that, I’ll get into some general thoughts and comments on specific cards.

4 Mother of Runes (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mother%20of%20Runes)
2 Auriok Champion (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Auriok%20Champion)
4 Stoneforge Mystic (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Stoneforge%20Mystic)
3 Grand Abolisher (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grand%20Abolisher)
4 Serra Avenger (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Serra%20Avenger)
4 Mirran Crusader (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mirran%20Crusader)
2 Voice of All (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Voice%20of%20All)


4 Aether Vial (http://deckbox.org/mtg/AEther%20Vial)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swords%20to%20Plowshares)
3 Oblivion Ring (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Oblivion%20Ring)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Umezawa%27s%20Jitte)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20Fire%20and%20Ice)
1 Batterskull (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Batterskull)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Elspeth,%20Knight-Errant)

1 Horizon Canopy (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Horizon%20Canopy)
3 Blinkmoth Nexus (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Blinkmoth%20Nexus)
17 Plains (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Plains)

Sideboard:

2 Path to Exile (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Path%20to%20Exile)
2 Disenchant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Disenchant)
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Eight-and-a-Half-Tails)
1 Auriok Champion (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Auriok%20Champion)
2 Stillmoon Cavalier (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Stillmoon%20Cavalier)
4 Faerie Macabre (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre)
3 Leyline of Sanctity (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20Sanctity)

General thoughts:

- I’ve been tweaking the land count (and non-basic count) a bit. There’s usually something to do with your mana later in the game, so I was just running 22, but after flooding out more than a few times, I’m going to try shaving one more. It’s also nice to hit four mana on turn four, both to cast Elspeth or to flash in equipment and equip, but obviously, you can get the mana-saving benefits of Aether Vial or just wait an extra turn to flash in gear and go to town.

- I’ve gone back and forth on the proper equipment count. I started with three, moved to four, and just shaved one back to three. I really like having more protection options, and I’d really love to have a more protection- and flight-based version of this deck (which I’ll address below a bit), but the extra one might be unnecessary. A lot of lists run three or even two, but I like having a few options, and anything combined with double strike is crazy.

- Though I’m a fan of Student of Warfare and Steppe Lynx, both are outclassed by Legacy creatures, and going more aggro instead of mid-range doesn’t help once Tarmogoyf and company hit the table. Spending a second turn and two more mana just to get your Student bolted really sucks.

- You definitely want three O-Rings in the main. I’ve learned the hard way that Jace is just as obnoxious in Legacy as he was in Standard, and there are plenty of other troublesome non-land permanents to target.

- I don’t have any Wastelands, but I’m not sure how much you’d want to run it in a build that’s not Death and Taxes. Sometimes it’s just as or more important to have that extra mana than it is to blow up your opponent’s land.

Cards:

Grand Abolisher (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grand%20Abolisher): This guy houses any blue decks, which are many. I went down to two for a bit because you usually don’t want multiples, but he’s too important, even with four Aether Vials. Making it safe to equip on your turn is huge, particularly if you have a sword that’s protecting your dude from removal.

Auriok Champion (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Auriok%20Champion): I was testing her in the sideboard, but I’m going to give her a spin in the main, because she seems surprisingly relevant in a number of matchups. Obviously, pro-red is nice against any deck with red removal and against plenty of aggro decks, and for similar reasons, her life-gain ability should be handy. (Keep in mind that it triggers from your creatures too). Pro-black is relevant against any deck with Batterskull, and being immune to the random piece of black removal is nice. She’s only 1/1, but she’s also a full mana cheaper than Paladin en-Vec (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Paladin%20en-Vec).

Eight-and-a-Half-Tails (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Eight-and-a-Half-Tails): I’m really torn on this card. It’s the type of card that I love, and it seems like a potential blowout with Aether Vial, but it’s also really mana intensive. I had one in the main deck for a second, but I’m going to try it out of the board as a “fifth” Mother of Runes. I’ve also considered Whitemane Lion (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Whitemane%20Lion) for a similar “counter” creature. Besides Devoted Caretaker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Devoted%20Caretaker), Eight-and-a-Half-Tails is one of the few dudes who can protect your equipment from removal (although they both still lose to Krosan Grip (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Krosan%20Grip)). Keep in mind that you can use it for offense, as you can give your guy pro-white and turn their dudes white.

Stillmoon Cavalier (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Stillmoon%20Cavalier): As I mentioned above, I’d love to make a protection-based deck and run one of every sword. This, of course, makes too many of your cards irrelevant or dead in too many matchups. Cavalier is a great example as he’s pretty lackluster on his own, but as a sideboard option for most Stoneforge decks, he seems like a house (as long as he’s not countered). Obviously, you also can get him back down in the end step with Aether Vial to avoid the Jace bounce. There are very few options for white creatures with protection from white, and again, he has protection from Batterskull tokens.

Aven Mindcensor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Aven%20Mindcensor): I was running 2-4 of these for a while, and it might be incorrect to take him out, but I want to run something that has a little more synchronicity with my deck. I read a comment by Gerry T, who uses the card in GWr Maverick, saying that if you’re using Mindcensor to stop Stoneforge or fetch lands, that you’re doing it the wrong way. I still think that Mindcensor is pretty useful in those regards, but I initially pulled it to test Skyhunter Skirmisher (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Skyhunter%20Skirmisher), which is insane with most swords and with Jitte. The downside of Skirmisher is that it wasn’t very useful when I was on the defensive, so I’m going to try a few copies of Voice of All for now (see below). But note that Mirran Crusader and Skyhunter Skirmisher are a beating with Jitte, and things can get downright insane if you have Elspeth in play. Regardless, either of those with a Jitte equals 20-28 damage in two swings, depending on when you pump (pre-combat or after first strike).

Voice of All (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Voice%20of%20All): Flying and protection? Double check. Four mana might make this unimpressive, as it doesn’t swing for seven like Hero of Bladehold (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Hero%20of%20Bladehold), but you can give it protection from an opponent’s main removal color and then equip and go to town, or you can play defense and give it protection from Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker or whatever.

Soltari Priest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Soltari%20Priest): As a creature with my two favorite attributes (protection and evasion), he’s right up my alley…but not being able to use pro-red as a blocker is a major downside. But he could make the cut if I ever ended up going with that all-protection deck.

Thoughts?

[StaticLynx]

I skimmed over this thread quickly and realized there are a few things kind of wishy-washy and controversial.
I mean, I'm not going to lie, I briefly thought of this deck against most decks to beat.
Seemingly I would assume Re-Animator and ANT would be the only real challenges and once Leyline is boarded in (if you run it.) combo just folds. Usually.

So. I thought I would also recommend cards like Aven Mindcensor, Horizon Canopy, other tricky cards of the like that don't just sit there beating face. As stated. 2/2 for one in Legacy isn't really viable anymore.
Last few notes; pretty sure it's been decided already, but I also think Batterskull plays against the deck, only being viable with Stone-Forge, otherwise useless, especially if you're constantly sacrificing lands like Wasteland and Canopy.

As far as the previous post. I really like the list and thoughts behind it. Though. As far as Voice of All goes seems like a bit too much. I think as far as old-fashioned whoopin' goes you already had it there, and something like Mindcensor added to the crafty things you could do to send the game in your favor.
"I read a comment by Gerry T, who uses the card in GWr Maverick, saying that if you’re using Mindcensor to stop Stoneforge or fetch lands, that you’re doing it the wrong way. I still think that Mindcensor is pretty useful in those regards."
Sorry GerryT, you may know WAY more in Magic then I do, but against something like Reanimator who plays their 'whole' game on three lands max, shutting down their first fetch and first land, potentially alone just won you the game.
Same deal against U/W Blade Control when they go to fetch their winning equipment.

[scottjmorrow]

As far as the previous post. I really like the list and thoughts behind it. Though. As far as Voice of All goes seems like a bit too much. I think as far as old-fashioned whoopin' goes you already had it there, and something like Mindcensor added to the crafty things you could do to send the game in your favor.
"I read a comment by Gerry T, who uses the card in GWr Maverick, saying that if you’re using Mindcensor to stop Stoneforge or fetch lands, that you’re doing it the wrong way. I still think that Mindcensor is pretty useful in those regards."
Sorry GerryT, you may know WAY more in Magic then I do, but against something like Reanimator who plays their 'whole' game on three lands max, shutting down their first fetch and first land, potentially alone just won you the game.
Same deal against U/W Blade Control when they go to fetch their winning equipment.

Well, he still runs them. I assume the thinking is that it won't matter until later in the game. Even if you're on the play, you won't stop a Stoneforge fetch or first two land fetches unless you accelerate out the Mindcensor.

[nedleeds]

To build a competitive white weenie deck in legacy, you need to consider that you need to do something different than Death & Taxes, another mono white creature-based deck.

For that reason I would play as few utility guys as possible. If you don't, the question; why don't you just play death & taxes (or maverick for that matter) keeps cropping up.

I really like the list NeoTech posted. It has some quick beats as well as the needed utility, like Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic. I don't like Serra Avenger though. Jotun Grunt comes to mind although I'm not sure if he can be played alongside Samurai.

Well then all your guys should evade. To make the clock quick enough you need the best global pumps, either HotP or Jihad.

[Freggle]

Well then all your guys should evade. To make the clock quick enough you need the best global pumps, either HotP or Jihad.

I was going to post this here, and then I realized you said it. Funny how that works. this is what I think of when I hear white "weenie."

A bunch of small guys and an Armageddon or two. This version hates on fetches, so it's generally the same.


4x leonin arbiter
4x kor skyfisher
4x knight of the holy nimbus
4x glittering lynx (loyal sentry / isamaru sometimes)
4x soltari priest
2x soltari visionary
2x jotun grunt
- 24 dudes
4x path to exile
4x honor of the pure
4x suppression field
4x chrome mox
2x oblivion ring
-18 other
16 plains
2 karakas (I know. But Iona is a problem)

It top 4 split a few 20-35 man legacies in Atlanta, mostly during the Survival era (where Arbiter and SF were both fistings). That first post list is atrocious. Sideboard was 4x canonist / true believer, Warmth, Disenchant / Abolish, Sunlance (for tribal), Morningtide, and other cards depending on what was expected.

[Kich867]

I had this posted in the casual forums but I feel like it's a pretty solid list:

//Creatures: 15
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Goldmeadow Harrier
3x Serra Avenger
3x Aven Mindcensor
1x Commander Eesha

//Spells: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

//Enchantments: 4
4x Oblivion Ring

//Planeswalkers: 3
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Artifacts: 11
4x Meekstone
4x Aether Vial
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

//Lands: 23
22x Foil Plains
1x Kor Haven

The main goal is to abuse the fact that Meekstone keeps most of the creatures in legacy down for the count while you fly over / swing with vigilant beaters that they can't do much about. STP handles creatures, ORing handles other permanents.. Jitte lets your dudes get big, swing hard, then shrink to not be hit by meekstone.

[Hireax]

If I checked the thread correctly this wasn't discussed yet.

How would Steppe Lynx perform in the deck considering you could go with about 8 fetches to make it worthwhile?

He seems like the best one-drop alongside Student of Warfare. Although he needs constant fueling I feel he could work wonders with a decent equipment package next to him :).

[NeoTech]

If I checked the thread correctly this wasn't discussed yet.

How would Steppe Lynx perform in the deck considering you could go with about 8 fetches to make it worthwhile?

He seems like the best one-drop alongside Student of Warfare. Although he needs constant fueling I feel he could work wonders with a decent equipment package next to him :).

I thought on Steppe Lynx for about 2 seconds, but decided if I had to choose between Isamaru, Hound of Konda as a 2/2, or Steppe Lynx as a 1/1 on your opponents turn and sometimes a 3/3 on your turn. I would much rather have the 2/2. It shuts down any random early 1/1 or Noble Hierarch Steppe Lynx just cant stand up as a blocker. And I will probably argue Isamaru's validity all day as a 2/2 for 1.

Now, with that said, I have been considering an alternative to Isamaru, and through testing I have resolved that the spot needs to be a 1 drop. I have thought of the usual appearance cards, such as Weathered Wayfarer, Icatian Javelineers and even Doomed Traveler. But I have settled on Gideon's Lawkeeper. The utility he can provide should suffice any needs, and against the non-creature decks he is the first thing to get sided out.

I haven't tested him much in the spot but that is my plan today is to test out his full effectiveness. I will share my results later.

[NeoTech]

Just going to give a quick update while I'm at work.

Gideon's Lawkeeper is an excellent pick over Isamaru, Hound of Konda. He has been an extremely useful utility locking down my opponents. Is he fragile? Of course. But who are they going to chose to get rid of when it comes down to it, my equipped Mirran Crusader that is wrecking you or my 1/1 guy that keeps tapping your win condition.

Here is my updated list, which now includes my ever changing sideboard.

Land: 20
8 - Plains
4 - Wasteland
4 - Windswept Heath
4 - Flooded Strand

Creatures: 26
4 - Mother of Runes
4 - Student of Warfare
4 - Stoneforge Mystic
4 - Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 - Mirran Crusader
3 - Gideon's Lawkeeper
3 - Serra Avenger

Spells: 14
4 - Swords to Plowshares
3 - Path to Exile
2 - Seal of Cleansing
1 - Oblivion Ring
2 - Sword of Fire and Ice
1 - Umezawa's Jitte
1 - Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard: 15
4 - Leyline of Sanctity
4 - Silver Knight
2 - Oblivion Ring
1 - Path to Exile
1 - Sword of Light and Shadow
3 - Leonin Relic-Warder


Give me some idea's on my sideboard choices, I have lots of ideas of what "could" go in there but nothing has me 110% sold yet.

And again, Gideon's Lawkeeper is a keeper. :laugh:

[mrjumbo03]

I'd run Goldmeadow Harrier over Gideon's Lawkeeper despite them being functionally the same because the former is not a human, leaving you a creature if ever your opponent hits you with an Engineered Plague naming human. Remember even, Mother of Runes is considered human as well.

But Goldmeadow Harrier's artwork is not as bad ass as Gideon's Lawkeeper though.:smile:

[NeoTech]

I'd run Goldmeadow Harrier over Gideon's Lawkeeper despite them being functionally the same because the former is not a human, leaving you a creature if ever your opponent hits you with an Engineered Plague naming human. Remember even, Mother of Runes is considered human as well.

But Goldmeadow Harrier's artwork is not as bad ass as Gideon's Lawkeeper though.:smile:

Yes, I will have to agree with both points, humans for the lose and gideon artwork.


EDIT: Link to MWS current build. Click Here. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32376161/WW.mwDeck)

[lyracian]

I think Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger are the best two beaters for White Weenie at the moment.

I am a fan of giving them a Magic sword or Elspeth. I also like Cataclysm (although it does not work well with Elspeth).

[Hireax]

How about running four Flagstones of Trokair and three Armageddon in the main?

You don't want double Geddons so three seems alright. It could prove difficult for a lot of decks to recover after that. Alongside four wastelands it gives you so much pressure on oppo's landcounts while Trokair will never get wasted.

[paeng4983]

I ran basically the same list awhile ago, except for -1 batterskull, and -1 SOFF replacing them with +2 jittes, and - all soltari priest and -all BSA replacing them with FOD, knight of meadowgrain, etc..

I only had a 3-2 mark.
I won vs. mono B control, team america, reanimator
I lost to UW thopter, and RUG tempo.

[MUCGuy]

Enlightened Tutor seems reasonable include. Sense we run many artifacts, the SFM package also consider ET package, then add in perhaps crucible, and ethersworn cannonist, top, or O' stone/rine, meek stone, seal of cleansing, worship, chalice of the void, ect.

Come to think of it white has 3 potential tool boxes, lands, artifacts/enchantments, equips.

Versatility and power if could fit all into one deck.

[NeoTech]

Enlightened Tutor seems reasonable include. Sense we run many artifacts, the SFM package also consider ET package, then add in perhaps crucible, and ethersworn cannonist, top, or O' stone/rine, meek stone, seal of cleansing, worship, chalice of the void, ect.

Come to think of it white has 3 potential tool boxes, lands, artifacts/enchantments, equips.

Versatility and power if could fit all into one deck.

In my opinion, when you start going for all these toolboxes for main deck answers you start taking the type of deck White Weenie is, which is an aggro deck, and start turning it towards a control deck. By adding a tutor toolbox and a land toolbox on top of stoneforge mystic toolbox, you are already planning on taking this to late game.

White weenie, as it stands, is capable of going to late game but it is not our first plan. We want to win as quickly as possible with keeping their threats off the board or atleast kept in check.

You have no idea how much I would love running Crucible in this for recurring wasteland, but there is no need for it and I would rather draw threats or removal because I have to keep constant pressure on my opponent.

These are just my thoughts, and I'm sure there is room for argument, but I have been playing my list with great success on MWS, I have had alot of success against top teir decks my most recent is going 4-1 against Blade Control. I feel that WW can stand on its own in this format with the current meta, we just need others to test and see for themselves.

[MUCGuy]

Weathered Wayfarer seems not play well with Student of Warfare and Figure of Destiny. Not to mention high mana counts to play with equips. Updated main post.

Sword of Feast and Famine however, does interact well with SoW and FoD.

[ipvitk]

What do you think about semi-tribal WW/Human deck? I tried smth. like this:

[1cc creatures]
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Mother of Runes
4 Student of Warfare
3 Doomed Traveller

[2cc creatures]
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Leonin Arbiter
4 Accorder Paladin
3 Grand Abolisher

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Honor of the Pure


+ 4 cards depending on meta.

I even tried 4 Contested War Zone as a pump "spell". No Mystics and equipment, our aim is to make 20 hits as early as 4th turn. Arbiter works great in my fetchlands/GSZ-heavy meta, and with Abolisher+Canonist on the table it feels sort of a lock. My only wish for Gaddock Teeg to be :w::w:

[MUCGuy]

Champion of the Parish is strong when throwing down a bunch of humans if you can get your Champion out quick. But at the end of the day it's hard to say if it's a superior build.

There seems to be a lot of options for white weenie. In the OP i'm trying to list the bombs in all the relevant matchups (DTB). I think that is probably the best way to go about building the deck. That way you can tune to you style/predicted metagame.

Can't really just say if a build is good or not. Must test cards and see if they do something worth while against the top decks.

[Qweerios]

Humans in Legacy! All hail Thalia, Guardian of Thraben!


Creatures (36)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Student of Warfare
4 Elite Vanguard
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Accorder Paladin
4 Mentor of the Meek
4 Fiend Hunter
2 Hero of Bladehold

Spells (4)
4 Path to Exile

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
16 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Glowrider
2 Aven Mindcensor


Sleeved it, played it, loved it.

[Heresy]

List

Where's Aether Vial?

[Freggle]

List

Wastelands and Path?

[Qweerios]

Since I have a couple of friends that want to get into legacy and want to build a relatively cheap/strong deck, I spent the last few days working on white weenie in legacy. It turns out to be much stronger than I anticipated.


Creatures (24)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Student of Warfare
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Instant/Sorcery (8)
4 Path to Exile
4 Spectral Procession

Artifact/Enchantment (6)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Oblivion Ring

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
14 Plains


I playtested the deck against a wide array of aggro/control decks (no combo). What bothered me the most, though, is that I was able to consistently beat Maverick.

Javelineers were great at sniping Mom, Bob, Grim, Noble, Cliques, Delver, Snap, you name it.

Spectral Procession + Jitte or SoFaI is so satisfying.

Also, I don't know if this is legal, but when I would connect with a SoFaF and had 3 mana open with a FoD, I would add 4 mana in resp to SoFaF's trigger for a total of 8 mana post-trigger, making my 4/4 FoD into a 8/8 Flying, First Strike beast.

I initially played the list with StP as my main removal but found the life gain to be too detrimental. Path + Wasteland is a non-issue. White weenie is all about short-term disruption. Whenever I would Snipe a Noble and Waste a Savannah against Maverick was not outset by the fact that I would Path their Knight 2 turns later. Sworing their knight, however, would put me in a predicament.

[from Cairo]

Also, I don't know if this is legal, but when I would connect with a SoFaF and had 3 mana open with a FoD, I would add 4 mana in resp to SoFaF's trigger for a total of 8 mana post-trigger, making my 4/4 FoD into a 8/8 Flying, First Strike beast.

Assuming you're saying you're coming up with 6 total mana and aren't expecting to reap benefits from it during the resolving combat step, this is totally legal. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=374231) In response to the Sword's trigger you're floating mana, obviously the damage to a player has already resolved thus the Sword triggering- ie there isn't much of a combat trick outside of a First Strike creature getting through.

If you have a Sword of Feast and Famine attached to a First Striker than the damage and trigger would go on the stack before normal combat damage, and you could buff your Figure of Destiny to survive combat with a larger creature.

Assuming a non-First Strike Sword carrier, it would just be a means to maximize mana, the non-First Strike Sword carrier would have already dealt it's damage, the non-First Strike Figure of Destiny would have already done it's damage and if any creature were blocking Figure it too would have dealt damage before the untap trigger would provide further growth oppertunities.

[Qweerios]

Exactly... I meant to say 3 mana, not 4. I know mana empties after each phases/steps (unclear on that) and didn't know if the mana generated prior to SoFaF's trigger would empty after the trigger because it might occur in a different step.

Also, that First Strike clause is great to know. It enables a new combat trick with Student and Figure.

[from Cairo]

Also, that First Strike clause is great to know. It enables a new combat trick with Student and Figure.

Only Figure can be upgraded at instant speed; Student's level up specifies Sorcery speed.

[MUCGuy]

One big problem with the fight against maverick is the punishing fires... i have not tried icatian javelineer in the matchup but i will test it.

Another big problem is our trouble in dealing with batterskull. I see you have Revoker for that task, but that's only answers it for a short time because they will start tutoring artifact hate (Pridemage). I will test revoker too however, if he had first strike he'd be a WW :)

After testing I see naming Pridemage with revoker is a solid play. Pridemage wrecks our equipment which is important in the long run. Not to mention Pridemage also kills revoker.

[Black Rain]

4 X AETHER VIAL
4 X MOTHER OF RUNES
4 X FIGURE OF DESTINY
4 X SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES
4 X STONEFORGE MYSTIC
3 X STUDENT OF WARFARE
3 X MIRRAN CRUSADER
3 X JOTUN GRUNT
2 X SILVER KNIGHT
2 X DISENCHANT
1 X OBLIVION RING
1 X BATTERSKULL
1 X JITTE
1 X SWORD OF FIRE AND ICE
1 X ISAMARU :confused: MIGHT BE BETTER AS FOURTH STUDENT
1 X ELSPETH
1 X VOICE OF ALL (PIMP WITH EQUIPMENT)[/CARDS]

16 X PLAINS
4 X MISHRAS FACTORY

SIDEBOARD
3 XGRAND ABOLISHER
3 XTHORN OF AMETHYST
2 XTORMOD'S CRYPT
2 XTHALIA
2 XETHERSWORN CANONIST
1 XNEVERMORE
1 XTIVADAR OF THORN
1 XBASILISK COLLAR


I will go into further detail of matchups I playtested against, and what cards the sideboard is built for. This deck is highly meta dependant and the sideboard is geared heavily towards meta disruption.

[troopatroop]

4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
15 Plains

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Thalia
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Hero of Bladehold


This is probably what I'd play. I think Weathered Wayfarer for Wasteland is the defining play of WW. Aether Vial should be staple, imo. If anything, this is a great budget deck.