I would like a see a three month mass unbanning, essentially a ban holiday for legacy

[Clark Kant]

Looking through the banned list, I think there are quite a few cards on there that don't neccesarily need to be there. Even those ones that do, I think deserve a chance to see play for a bit and have their power level reevaluated in modern legacy

Rather than slowly unban cards one by one, I would love to see a temporary three month mass unbanning of numerous cards, with the explict instructions beforehand that most of those unbanned cards will go back onto the banned list in three months, and any remaining stragglers that prove too powerful will be nixed in the next round of bannings, but the decisions of which go back on the list will be entirely based on proven performance and merits. That seems like a much more democratic, free market approach to the banned list rather than the current top down management of it.

In that spirit, I would love to see the following cards, all come off the ban list for a 3-6 month period...

Black Vise
Channel
Chaos Orb
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Flash
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mystical Tutor
Oath of Druids
Shahrazad
Skullclamp
Survival of the Fittest
Timetwister
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon

Yes, yes, yes. I know, several of these cards are likely too powerful for legacy. But even those cards were last evaluated in the real world far too long ago. They deserve a chance to prove that they absolutely do belong on the list. And yes, I do not believe that Choas Orb, Falling Star or Shahazad need to be banned. They are not strong enough to see competitive play regardless, and the whole manual dexterity thing is nonsense. Shuffling and playing Magic in general requires manual dexerity, some cards require flipping a coin which requires manual dexterity, and you can always ask someone else to do the flip for you.

And lastly, I think such a ban holiday (the summer of unbannings), could be incredibly rewarding and satisfying for a lot of people. It would be a cathartic way to shut down arguments about which cards can be safely unbanned and which can not as well.

Also, I would like to see all the ante cards removed off the banned list entirely, and simply include in the actual official MTG rule book (and at the bottom of the B&R List) that Ante is not a legal concept in the game and as such, Ante cards are not legal in any format. This would keep those cards banned without them having to be explictly mentioned and swelling up the list. Or they can just print the ante and other such cards in an Un-set and errata them to be Unglued type cards so that they no longer need to be mentioned in the ban list, it goes without saying that they are illegal due to the errata. By making this change, we ensure that the only cards on the ban list are there strictly because they are too powerful to exist. We can then focus on paring this actual ban list down to as small a number as we can reasonably get it to (20-25 cards banned due to their power level would be ideal in my opinion). Accomplishing that I think would reinforce the fact that Legacy is the format that actually has the largest legal card pool (bigger than Vintages card pool) because by banning the super fast mana (Moxen and Loti) that define Vintage, many cards go from broken to just playable (Mind Twist as an example).

Update, Revised Unban List:

I think the format would survive just fine if most of these cards came off the banned list...

Black Vise
Chaos Orb
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Memory Jar
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mystical Tutor
Shahrazad
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon

A three month trial run with all of them unbanned, followed by a rebanning of anything problematic is just what legacy needs imo.

[Cthuloo]

I agree with the spirit: I would like them to be more brave with the banned list. I wouldn't want ultra-pricy cards off the list, though, legacy is already quite expensive as it is. My reduced proposed list:

Black Vise
Channel
Earthcraft
Flash
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mystical Tutor
Oath of Druids
Skullclamp
Survival of the Fittest
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon

I would love to see small groups unbannigs, like e.g.:

Black Vise
Land Tax
Mana Vault
Mental Misstep
Mystical Tutor
Skullclamp


(Powerful 1cc cards splitted among aggro, control and combo cards plus MM to combat them). It might turn out a mess, but it would be a lot of fun!

[sdematt]

I'd be up for this. I'm sure some crazy stuff could happen, but telling people ahead of time that at the end of 3 months, it'll go back to normal for analysis would be cool, and no one could complain if/when prices crash at the end of the 3 month trial.

Bring it!

-Matt

[Skeggi]

I hate to make +1 posts, but I have to agree that this is actually a very interesting idea. So I have no choice. +1!

We could start it ourselves by organizing experimental non-sanctioned tournaments. Imporant is that they undergo a thorough in-depth analysis of the metagame and the most important cards in the top4/8 (most important <> most played). The complexity however, is mindboggling. First you indeed make a list of what cards should be considered, then you narrow it down. I like Cthuloo's approach of 'themed' unbannings.

[Amon Amarth]

This idea is very appealing. The prospect of getting to play with a bunch of banned cards that have been collecting dust in binders and card boxes for years is far more exciting than any new set release. I don't want Mana Drain unbanned, though, because of price and it starts to blur the lines between Legacy and Vintage. Ditto for Workshop and Bazaar. The rest sounds like the ultimate battle of badassery.

[bakofried]

My only concern is not unbanning the distinctively "vintage" cards, such as Timetwister, Drain, Bazaar, Shop, etc. As long as the cards being unbanned preserve the sense of legacy, and the 3-month staples don't drive people away for hideous overpricing, it sounds fun.

[BVB09]

I LOVE this idea!!

That's what Legacy needs!! Players love to play with powerful cards, Wizards should stop banning cards to decrease the power level of the formats!! Come on, Wizards, listen a bit to the players, this 20th December banlist update was a huge disappointment. Everyone loves crazy plays and powerful cards, right??

They could start with something like:

Black Vise
Channel
Earthcraft
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Land Tax
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mystical Tutor
Survival of the Fittest
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon

[Hof]

Many of those cards could safely come off the banned list, but as much as I like the idea behind unbannings and shaking things up a bit, there are some obvious problems with this approach.

- Card availability. Not many people own many of the most powerful cards on the list. Also, no one would invest in them because they would likely be banned after three months or so. This means you will not be able to measure the power level or 'performance' of the cards, because availability is a dominating factor.

- Availability issues aside, people will go for the most broken strategies first (Flash and Oath, for example). This means that the less broken but still too broken cards will superficially underperform, simply because people will not play them due to even stronger cards being legal. Then, when the evaluation period is over, only the strongest cards will be banned, and the next in line will be considered safe because they did not perform will (because no one played them).

[rufus]

...
Also, I would like to see the official banned list organized into two seperate lists. One banned list will be based strictly on powerlevel of the card. The other banned list will only include those cards whose inclusion on the ban list is due to the fact that ante, ripping up cards, and subgames within magic games are no longer allowed in the official magic rules.

Said list exists: Shahrazad,Chaos Orb, Falling Star, and all the ante cards.

Beyond Chaos Orb's silly inclusion, that list seems pretty poorly thought out. Any card that, if added to the current card pool can make for decks with say, 70% or better turn 1 goldfish or the same on turn 2 with multiple protection or redundancy isn't even worth considering. If you allow just Wheel of Fortune or Windfall it would be the summer of coin flips instead.


players love to play with powerful cards, Wizards should stop banning cards to decrease the power level of the formats!

People love playing with cards that do fun and interesting stuff. I don't think anyone really misses Sol Ring, because, despite it being grossly potent, it's a pretty boring card. (Speaking of which: why allow Mana Crypt and Mana Vault but no Sol Ring?)

[Koby]

I agree with principle of it, but I cannot get behind the idea of unbanning Oath in a format that needs to be casting creatures.

You don't know frustration until you've lost to turn 1 Oath in 60% of the games you play. It really removes any pie in the sky idea that the game has any skill involved.

[BVB09]

People love playing with cards that do fun and interesting stuff. I don't think anyone really misses Sol Ring, because, despite it being grossly potent, it's a pretty boring card. (Speaking of which: why allow Mana Crypt and Mana Vault but no Sol Ring?)

Well, Mana Crypt and Vault deal you damage each turn, helping aggro decks like Zoo or Burn a lot. Mana Vault seems more powerful for me because the amount of damage it deals, but Mana Crypt looks ''OK'' for me...

[Skeggi]

I agree with principle of it, but I cannot get behind the idea of unbanning Oath in a format that needs to be casting creatures.

You don't know frustration until you've lost to turn 1 Oath in 60% of the games you play. It really removes any pie in the sky idea that the game has any skill involved.
I think IBA started a thread on this: the idea that you could unban Oath if you ban Forbidden Orchard (perhaps also Beast Within). You could bring back the 'iconic' cards at the cost of less 'iconic' cards.

[wcm8]

I think Gush would be pretty broken, even without Fastbond. The card would probably become an auto-include in blue decks.

[Koby]

I think IBA started a thread on this: the idea that you could unban Oath if you ban Forbidden Orchard (perhaps also Beast Within). You could bring back the 'iconic' cards at the cost of less 'iconic' cards.

Essentially when I look at the list in the OP, I see MTGO's Classic format (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=magic/rules/mtgoclassic); which is overrun by Dredge (Bazaar), Oath, and Gush decks. Granted Bazaar is strictly a Vintage card for the purpose of this thread; however the other cards would lead a degenerate state where I see only two archetypes existing:

Blue combo-control (Gush, Oath, Channel, pick-your-poison)
Storm
[everything else is Tier 2]

[lordofthepit]

Three months is a lot of time to fuck up a format for nowadays, and I don't want to miss out on three months of normal Legacy to experiment with this.

I wouldn't mind three months of "unbanned Legacy" replacing any existing Modern tournaments though, just as long as we have a place to play Legacy in the meantime.

[rufus]

Well, Mana Crypt and Vault deal you damage each turn, helping aggro decks like Zoo or Burn a lot. Mana Vault seems more powerful for me because the amount of damage it deals, but Mana Crypt looks ''OK'' for me...

Do you really think that the game will last 'till the player's next upkeep when those hit the table?

I think you can play 'brown tide' with the cards the OP would allow - here's a massively unoptimized list:


Mox Opal
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Lotus Petal
Chrome Mox
Lion's Eye Diamond
Island

Retract
Hurkyls Recall

Force of Will
Pact of Negation

Past in Flames
Windfall
Wheel of Fortune
Stroke of Genius


Suddenly, I find myself strangely dubious of the viability of cards like Mana Drain,Gush or Frantic Search in that kind of meta.

[Malchar]

It would probably be "balanced" because of all the new deck possibilities. But, in only 3 months, it's hard to tell which cards should remain unbanned. It's not enough time to test each card. The way they have been doing it - unbanning 1 or 2 at a time - works quite well because it usually only directly affects 1 or 2 decks and it's much easier to tell if the meta is suddenly ruined by the unbanning. I guess it would certainly be fun for the 3 months, but I'd rather have a way of unbanning the cards long-term. It's kind of hard to buy a new legacy deck just to play for 3 months and then have all the cards become worthless when they're banned again, especially if the timing coincides with a major tournament.

[TheMightyQuinn]

If this actually happened and every metagame everywhere became inundated with insane decks (Flash, Oath, Dragon, Gush.dec, etc.) how would you decide what gets to stay after the "trial period?". It would be like creating a whole new metagame from scratch: Legacy and Vintage's retarded second cousin. Seems fun(ish) but I don't think any real knowledge would be gained. I could get behind unbanning things in small groups though.

[ESG]

There's a format where you can play these cards. It's called Vintage. Unbanning cards one at a time is prudent; a "ban holiday" would be chaos. Y'all are free to proxy up decks and play this out (not that many, if any, will do so), but it's going to feel a lot more like Vintage than Legacy. Thumbs down.

[Koby]

Or play Classic on MTGO which is essentially Vintage without the Power 9.

[Meekrab]

Pretty sure you'd never see a turn 4 with the unbans in the OP.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Looking through the banned list, I think there are quite a few cards on there that don't neccesarily need to be there. Even those ones that do, I think deserve a chance to see play for a bit and have their power level reevaluated in modern legacy

Rather than slowly unban cards one by one, I would love to see a temporary three month mass unbanning of numerous cards, with the explict instructions beforehand that most of those unbanned cards will go back onto the banned list in three months, and any remaining stragglers that prove too powerful will be nixed in the next round of bannings, but the decisions of which go back on the list will be entirely based on proven performance and merits. That seems like a much more democratic, free market approach to the banned list rather than the current top down management of it.

Unbanning a bunch of crap at once would not prove anything. The banned list is obviously split into three unspoken tiers
#1- Cards that can't exist for logistical reasons. Example Ante cards, Chaos Orb, Falling Star. These cards can't exist without the return of ante or about a million rules to dictate how they would play out and thus will never be unbanned.
#2- Cards that will never be unbanned for power reasons. Example Power 9, Workshop, Tinker.
#3- Cards that may one day be unbanned, AKA the grey area.

Two banned lists would be confusing. You can obviously look at most cards and tell whether or not they are banned for ante or the likelyhood they will ever be unbanned.

Unbanning everything in the grey area at once wouldn't prove anything though. Just because Hermit Druid wouldn't see play in a format with Flash and Oath legal doesn't mean it isn't broken.

[SpikeyMikey]

Yeah, I'm with Holmes here. Bad idea. The format would be horrible. Legacy continues to stay as popular as it is because people play it. You make it unplayable, when you come back in 3 months with a less retarded ban list, you have to work to get that player base back again. Not everyone that plays the format is as rabid about it as we are here.

Plus, it would unlikely to be 3 months of retarded. Survival would see no play in that proposed format but it's definitely overpowered after 1 round of bannings. It could take a year or more to achieve a playable ban list with your method.

[nedleeds]

forest, esg, channel, emrakul. go. again.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Seriously, the OP doesn't list Mind's Desire.

Please and thank you.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

forest, esg, channel, emrakul. go. again.

I was waiting for someone to say this...

basically a different show and tell deck... potential for way more explosive plays (like the one you say here) and you get the time walk, downside is Channel is double green and you probably are going to playing blue for FoW/Brainstorm and Show and Tell lol, also against burn or zoo you could get Priced or Bolted than Fireblasted after you drop Emmy.

[Freggle]

I was waiting for someone to say this...

basically a different show and tell deck... potential for way more explosive plays (like the one you say here) and you get the time walk, downside is Channel is double green and you probably are going to playing blue for FoW/Brainstorm and Show and Tell lol, also against burn or zoo you could get Priced or Bolted than Fireblasted after you drop Emmy.

Might as well build it with 4 Flash 4 Protean Hulk 4 Academy Rector 1 Carrion Feeder, and 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain too.

As for the Blue Green issue you'd obviously have a fetch / Tropical base.

As for the OP it's fun to do among friends but for competitive play the concept is detrimental to the format EVEN if it is just for 3 months.

IF someone was driven to do this WOTC should do what all corporations do and release this as a new branded product. ...such "cardboard classic" and not jeopardize the Legacy name and base.

[GoblinSettler]

a new branded product "cardboard classic"

I would love to see this. Different backs (faces even?), not tournament legal, boxed set card game. Something like type 1 cube in a box, $50 price point, to compete with deck building games.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm going to echo holmes and SpikeyMikey. Releasing too many obviously powerful cards into the format doesn't prove which of them are really "safe", it just proves which of them are really broken. You can't compare your ban holiday format to a normal Legacy format because there are way too many variables being added at once; for example, Land Tax may be marginally playable in current Legacy but would be actually unplayable in Ban Holiday Legacy, Hermit Druid would see no play because Oath is just a better implementation of the same concept, Windfall is not as good as Wheel of Fortune in a format where you have both, Frantic Search is terrible outside of the specific case of High Tide (which would be unplayable), and so on. It would take months of successive bannings to root out all of the problem cards, and in the end there's probably only a few cards that would actually be completely fine.

Plus, given how hive-mind-ish the Legacy tournament circuit can be, you'd probably only get one or two broken decks per round of bannings. Once people hit on the most powerful deck, those who could would play that deck exclusively until its enablers got banned. Other obnoxious decks, or metagame decks that might beat it, would probably make up only small parts of the top 16s.

The banned list should stay as it is.

[Rizso]

forest, esg, channel, emrakul. go. again.

Or you can go for a storm based combo deck with 4 Channels and 4 Lich's Mirror. HF!


Would like to see test periods of Minds Desire, Skullclamp, Mindtwist, Gush, Memory Jar, Wheel of Fortune and Windfall where legal at seperate time or not in the same types of decks. Like Windfall, wheel and jar in the same period.

Gush, question how unfair is that card when not playing with fast mana as moxes or fast bond? Could a Gush powered temp deck still run daze? Would Gush make Foil into a playable card as it was in standard for many years ago?

Is a minds Desire based storm deck more powerful then a Ad Nausem powered storm deck? What kind of storm deck or combo decks would windfall, Wheel and Jar introduced? Would Wheel get into red based aggro decks as a card recovery like it was long time ago? What deck would Memory Jar fit into, 5 mana is quite alot after all.

As for Mindtwist why is it still banned? Pretty much trading the same amount of number of cards if doing a fast one with rituals and other fast mana. Format is without moxes, lotus, sol/vault/crypt and manadrain after all. What deck is that makes this card banned?

Skullclamp, while it was a powerhouse in standard it sees little to no play in vintage. Would this card make elves, goblins into a unbeatable force? Doubt it, they would probly be better. Would it make Stoneforge Mystic better, probly. Aggro based Stoneforge decks maverick would probly use the card.

[GradStudentGuy]

Skullclamp, while it was a powerhouse in standard it sees little to no play in vintage. Would this card make elves, goblins into a unbeatable force? Doubt it, they would probly be better. Would it make Stoneforge Mystic better, probly. Aggro based Stoneforge decks maverick would probly use the card.


In vintage creatures are less common as decks can win out of nowhere. This makes relying purely on creatures a liability. The 'fish' decks that do exist in vintage run null rod making Skullclamp a less attractive option.

Skullclamp is too efficient of a draw engine to be allowed in legacy, as it is a creature centered format. Goblins would run it in conjunction with Seige Gang commander or Mogg War Marshal. Control would abuse it with Stoneforge Mystic. Bitterblossom or Elspeth, Knight-Errant would feed clamp every turn in these decks. Affinity decks would be even more explosive, as a lot of there creatures become draw 2 targets.

[Rizso]

In vintage creatures are less common as decks can win out of nowhere. This makes relying purely on creatures a liability. The 'fish' decks that do exist in vintage run null rod making Skullclamp a less attractive option.

Skullclamp is too efficient of a draw engine to be allowed in legacy, as it is a creature centered format. Goblins would run it in conjunction with Seige Gang commander or Mogg War Marshal. Control would abuse it with Stoneforge Mystic. Bitterblossom or Elspeth, Knight-Errant would feed clamp every turn in these decks. Affinity decks would be even more explosive, as a lot of there creatures become draw 2 targets.

Would vintage fish decks run skullclamps if they wouldnt need to use Null Rods?

TBH Skullclamp imo hasnt been played tested much at all after it got banned in standard for like 7 years ago. Been banned in pretty much any format but vintage. I do know the card is good, did play standard durring standard with Ravager affinity. But I do question its ban in legacy where the card pool is strong enought to get rid of it as well as punishing creature decks that would want to abuse it. Maybe its cos it punishing the almost non-existing control decks in legacy. UW-blade is probly the closest to pure control even that deck can gold fish someone at before turn 5-7.

If affinty would ever grow to be a strong deck there are cards that wrecks the whole deck with little effort so imo affinity isnt much of a problem.

[GradStudentGuy]

Would vintage fish decks run skullclamps if they wouldnt need to use Null Rods?

TBH Skullclamp imo hasnt been played tested much at all after it got banned in standard for like 7 years ago. Been banned in pretty much any format but vintage. I do know the card is good, did play standard durring standard with Ravager affinity. But I do question its ban in legacy where the card pool is strong enought to get rid of it as well as punishing creature decks that would want to abuse it. Maybe its cos it punishing the almost non-existing control decks in legacy. UW-blade is probly the closest to pure control even that deck can gold fish someone at before turn 5-7.

If affinty would ever grow to be a strong deck there are cards that wrecks the whole deck with little effort so imo affinity isnt much of a problem.

Let me put it this way. I was playing against a friend that had a cloud post myr deck that was legacy legal but had 4x Skullclamps. I never won a game against him if the skull clamp resolved. I always had to save a counter spell for it. I am not saying that other decks would not handle skullclamp better. However, in my testing it has proven more broken than Ancestral Recall. It turns random aggro decks into card drawing machines.

[Neuad]

Yeah because the rest of this thread isn't useless.

If combo gets to big, people freak out and complain for weeks.. If blue gets to big, people freak about Brainstorm.

So lets unban cards more powerful than Brainstorm, and turn the format into 3 months of games lasting less then 4 turns? Sound's like a plan, where do I sign up? Oh wait, I already don't play Vintage for a reason.

Want to play with these cards? Get non sanctioned events, or a 6 pack of beer and a few friends. Don't suggest ruining an amazingly strong format by unbanning them.

[(nameless one)]

It would be really cool if they had a GP: Paper Classic or have Paper Classic in Worlds or Invitationals.

[dontbiteitholmes]

It would be really cool if they had a GP: Paper Classic or have Paper Classic in Worlds or Invitationals.

If this has anything to do with the cards in the OP being unbanned I think the correct term is "GP: Paper, Scissors, Rock"

[GGoober]

I think Gush would be pretty broken, even without Fastbond. The card would probably become an auto-include in blue decks.

It will not be an auto-include in blue decks. It would be an auto-include in Gush decks, which won't be significant part of the metagame since you are still lacking ample accelerants to push Gush against the other suggested unbanned archetypes e.g. Oath etc.

Most Gush decks typically require at least 3 lands in play to fully abuse the card's draw+mana generation capability. Without fastbond, the engine is significantly weaker. There's always this misconception that unbanning Gush will be the end of the world, but the truth is it will only empower Gush decks, but without Moxen accelerants, it won't be as scary as it seems (when you're considering the other host of monsters suggested in the OP).

Now, unbanning just Gush and nothing else I would agree with you, the card will be significantly powerful in the current Legacy :P

[Koby]

There should never be an opportunity for Skullclamp and Earthcraft to be paired together in a format that doesn't include Oath; otherwise they will overtake the format. The former replaces Glimpse of Nature in Elves and makes it way more consistent to go off on turn 2.

Earthcraft + Nettle Sentinel nets +1 mana for each Elf cast, which conveniently allows you to draw 2 cards with Skullclamp. Add Wirewood Hivemaster and you can now draw your whole deck.


TBH Skullclamp imo hasnt been played tested much at all after it got banned in standard for like 7 years ago.
Bold and patent lie. Look at 2nd place (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/3193173).

[wcm8]

It will not be an auto-include in blue decks. It would be an auto-include in Gush decks, which won't be significant part of the metagame since you are still lacking ample accelerants to push Gush against the other suggested unbanned archetypes e.g. Oath etc.

Most Gush decks typically require at least 3 lands in play to fully abuse the card's draw+mana generation capability. Without fastbond, the engine is significantly weaker. There's always this misconception that unbanning Gush will be the end of the world, but the truth is it will only empower Gush decks, but without Moxen accelerants, it won't be as scary as it seems (when you're considering the other host of monsters suggested in the OP).

Now, unbanning just Gush and nothing else I would agree with you, the card will be significantly powerful in the current Legacy :P

I agree with you somewhat. It is definitely not as amazing without Fastbond or Yawgmoth's Will...

But the card is busted regardless, especially by Legacy standards. It's Wasteland-protection for blue duals, mana acceleration (on t3 with 2 lands in play and none in hand), FREE card draw, a way to dig for a FoW even when you're tapped out... A tempo deck would definitely love this card, and I'd see it being played in combo as well.

The reason I point it out is because it's arguably one of the more 'safe' cards to unban (in comparison to a lot of the others on that list), but I'd see this card warping Legacy even more towards blue than it already is.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree with you somewhat. It is definitely not as amazing without Fastbond or Yawgmoth's Will...

But the card is busted regardless, especially by Legacy standards. It's Wasteland-protection for blue duals, mana acceleration (on t3 with 2 lands in play and none in hand), FREE card draw, a way to dig for a FoW even when you're tapped out... A tempo deck would definitely love this card, and I'd see it being played in combo as well.

The reason I point it out is because it's arguably one of the more 'safe' cards to unban (in comparison to a lot of the others on that list), but I'd see this card warping Legacy even more towards blue than it already is.

I don't think it's safe...the format may not have Yawgmoth's Will, but it still has Past in Flames.

I can see decks dropping additional cantrips (like Ponder) and sticking with 4x Brainstorm and then some number of Gush. Gush seems just too good at drawing extra cards, not to mention it's a free way to avoid Wasteland. I would gladly return my 2 Tropical Islands so I can negate a Wasteland activation...and draw 2 cards for my trouble. Next turn I can re-play one of them and have Stifle/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce mana available for whatever you attempt next. In the mid-late game, it becomes incredible at leveraging card advantage. The instant speed of it makes it busted, allowing for a draw-go game plan to be that much stronger. Most tempo decks can operate on 2 lands just fine, and Gush would almost ensure that you always have those 2 lands available. It would be back to favoring Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, and Stifle/Naught beatsticks supported by a mountain of cheap disruption.

[rufus]

I don't think it's safe...the format may not have Yawgmoth's Will, but it still has Past in Flames.

I'm pretty sure that Past in Flames won't enable alternative casting costs the same way that Yawgmoth's Will does. Though Gush is overpowered, flashing it back probably isn't.



I can see decks dropping additional cantrips (like Ponder) and sticking with 4x Brainstorm and then some number of Gush. Gush seems just too good at drawing extra cards, not to mention it's a free way to avoid Wasteland. I would gladly return my 2 Tropical Islands so I can negate a Wasteland activation...It would be back to favoring Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, and Stifle/Naught beatsticks supported by a mountain of cheap disruption.


I also think Gush would be strong in a combo deck that combines it with Retraced Image or Explore and High Tide.

The alternative cost on Gush is almost negligible as long as the game will end soon and tapped lands are not an important resource. That means that most decks with a reasonable expectation of winning by turn 4 and fielding islands (i.e. much of Legacy) would probably be stronger with Gush as a 2-3 of.

Moreover, since it can counter Wasteland it makes :u:-dual splashing in any mono-colored decks look much stronger, and would immediately push the format even more toward :u:.

[boneclub24]

Moreover, since it can counter Wasteland it makes :u:-dual splashing in any mono-colored decks look much stronger, and would immediately push the format even more toward :u:.

If you're mono colored, why are you worrying about being wasteland-proof?

[Koby]

If you're mono colored, why are you worrying about being wasteland-proof?

Huh?

It makes splashing 2nd colors (U-Sea, Volc) much easier and less risk when Gush can protect those lands. It would tend 2,3,4-color decks to become base :u: to take advantage of Gush.

[wcm8]

If you're mono colored, why are you worrying about being wasteland-proof?

You're not. But it's a concern when you're going into two or three colors... but not as much if you're running Gush, necessitating islands, leading to a further warp towards blue. I think you just misunderstood him.

[GGoober]

Don't forget Gush also makes Brainstorm even more stupid good (the same way a mid-game Daze is still great with Brainstorm), if you have a fetchland in play :P

[Rizso]

Returning Land in the start of the game (turn 2-4) for gush is quite harsh unless you play really low curve deck. Doubt there would be many gush decks with jace, stoneforge or Counterbalance considering thoes decks are more mana intensive.

Miss playing Gush in fair decks, like the Quirion Dryad deck.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm pretty sure that Past in Flames won't enable alternative casting costs the same way that Yawgmoth's Will does. Though Gush is overpowered, flashing it back probably isn't.



I also think Gush would be strong in a combo deck that combines it with Retraced Image or Explore and High Tide.

The alternative cost on Gush is almost negligible as long as the game will end soon and tapped lands are not an important resource. That means that most decks with a reasonable expectation of winning by turn 4 and fielding islands (i.e. much of Legacy) would probably be stronger with Gush as a 2-3 of.

Moreover, since it can counter Wasteland it makes :u:-dual splashing in any mono-colored decks look much stronger, and would immediately push the format even more toward :u:.

Doh...I forgot about that interaction with Past in Flames. It's the same as Snapcaster Mage not allowing you to exile a blue card and pay 1 life for Force to be flashed back. Words, words, words...they'll mess up a bad argument when you're least expecting it :laugh:

I agree about pushing the format more towards blue...which deck wouldn't splash Volcanic Islands/Tropical Islands for a card that essentially reads "Counter Wasteland, draw two cards."

Just the fact that Retraced Image becomes a powerful card should show you how busted Gush is. Explore with Gush? Holy crap is that good...not Fastbond good, but still good.

[LOurs]

To get a new format shape is attractive, but cards are on the ban list often for very good reasons : a large part of them are much higher than Legacy standards. We could give them a try, but honestly, I strongly believe this wont give another results than “let’s keep this list as it is right now”. Especialy in a format where the legality rule is “4 or nothing”. I rade something about sol ring in example : the idea to unban it could hypotheticaly be debated, but there is no debate if the rule allows you to play 4 of them. The same goes to most part of mana / draw spells currently on the list (unbanned mana vault could sound well to some players, but I cant even imagine a format where 4 of them are legal). If you add a “restricted card” rule, it could be a bit different. It could, but it would definitely be another format than legacy. Much closer to mtgo classic format which is really interesting, but really far from what legacy is nowadays. Not sure legacy enthusiast would enjoy that so much all in all. My 2 cents.

[Clark Kant]

Ok forget the fast mana then.

But out of these cards, don't you thinks there's atleast a handful that could be unbanned without damaging the format?

Black Vise
Chaos Orb
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Memory Jar
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mystical Tutor
Shahrazad
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon

I think the format would fare just fine if most of those cards came off the list.

[rufus]

Ok forget the fast mana then.

But out of these cards, don't you thinks there's atleast a handful that could be unbanned without damaging the format?...

I'm wondering if you're trollolloling in the holiday spirit,as this can probably be locked as just another B/R thread at this point.

[Tao]

unban Falling Star and Chaos Orb?

You got to know that this is impossible in real tournaments for many and obvious reasons.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't mind the concept of having some cards that take advantage of physical elements in a way that, say, online cards can't. Falling Star and Chaos Orb seem like a clusterfuck though. In packed tournament halls, punishing players for keeping their board neat and together is a fucking terrible idea, and I'm not even sure how that would impact sleeve selection.

Hermit Druid should probably not be unbanned, especially with Mental Misstep. There's really no particular reason to have a one card combo that costs two mana, even if it does have an ass of one.

Memory Jar is a stupid one sided draw seven.

Frantic Search would make High Tide decks ridiculously overpowered.

The rest could probably be considered barring probably Mind's Desire. Survival couldn't be unbanned without Vengevine being banned though.

[phonics]

It would be cool to see it as a single event, I would think then it would just be a bunch of 'home brews' rather than everyone playing the same thing. Having everything unbanned except p9, ante cards, dexterity cards, vault, crypt, sol ring, bazzar, oath, channel, fastbond. Problem is there are barely any large legacy events already, but it would be cool for like 1 scg event.

[Grollub]

I'd love to see:

Oath of Druids
Hermit Druid
Survival of the Fittest
Gush
Land Tax
Frantic Search

Come off, just because it'd have the probability (albeit miniscule) of turning Legacy into Extended when it was in it's glory days. :-D
- Heck ban everything after glory days Extended and unban to match would be beyond awesome. ^^

Banning Tendrils and unban a bunch of the combo cards could be interesting as well.

[nedleeds]

Ok forget the fast mana then.

But out of these cards, don't you thinks there's atleast a handful that could be unbanned without damaging the format?

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Land Tax
Mind Twist
Survival of the Fittest

I think the format would fare just fine if these cards came off the list.

These would balance the format. Blue would still dominate because of brainstorms ability to fix hands and play cheaty mana bases, but a resolved (through FoW, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Daze) SotF is a fast clock. It might also force control decks to (GASP!) play artifact/enchantment removal. I think Dragon can't come off with Entomb lurking around, though I'm not sure how much more game breaking it is than just reanimating Iona or Jin is. Black Vise would be a gamblers card, great on the play in the first 2-3 turns then a miserable top deck (barring land destruction). It would serve it's original Garfield intended purpose ... to hose control decks.

[Rizso]

There first has to be control deck for it to be forced to play artifact / enchantment removal!

Black Vise would be really awesome in a Anhk Burn style of deck.

[rufus]

It would be cool to see it as a single event, I would think then it would just be a bunch of 'home brews' rather than everyone playing the same thing. Having everything unbanned except p9, ante cards, dexterity cards, vault, crypt, sol ring, bazzar, oath, channel, fastbond. Problem is there are barely any large legacy events already, but it would be cool for like 1 scg event.

I think it would be pretty boring, really, there are a number of other cards on the ban list like Wheel of Fortune,Yawgmoth's Will and Demonic Consultation that pretty clearly deserve to be there. The number of ways to goldfish T1 is so high that people would probably have to play 4xFoW to prevent games from ending on the play.


The rest could probably be considered barring probably Mind's Desire.

Though the power level is clearly very high, I sincerely wonder how Mind's Desire[/card] compares to stuff like [cards]Tendrils of Agony or Ad Nauseam.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Though the power level is clearly very high, I sincerely wonder how Mind's Desire[/card] compares to stuff like [cards]Tendrils of Agony or Ad Nauseam.

The only reason Desire would ever be an issue in Legacy is the chance to chain them together. Fast mana in Legacy is much less efficient than Vintage, and the cards you Desire into are nowhere near as broken (I've often been told by Vintage players that Desire for 3 is often GG, simply because you hit Bargain/Necro/Will/Draw7s - this would not happen in Legacy except possibly with Past in Flames, but flashing back Desire is obviously expensive). I honestly don't think Desire would destroy the format if unbanned - it would likely spawn a new and powerful combo deck, but nothing that the current crop of U/x tempo decks couldn't handle (Stifle wrecks Desire.dec).

EDIT: However, since the card has been banned since the inception of Legacy, and there's a ton of negative vibes out there regarding storm combo, I don't ever see it coming off the list even if it was somewhat balanced.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I would like to see more useless threads be locked personally. This is/was/will always be a terrible idea. How about just systematically remove the weaker cards from the banned list?

[kiblast]

This is a terrible idea. How about just systematically remove the weaker cards from the banned list?

Agreed. And I think Wizards should let players decide what cards should come off the banned list. That would be awesome.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Agreed. And I think Wizards should let players decide what cards should come off the banned list. That would be awesome.

I would agree if so many people weren't so wrong about cards that supposedly need to be banned. Probably 5 or so cards could come off and barely make a ripple at this point. The Legacy games is so different than it was a mere 2 sets ago.