SinkCaster

[fetterfool]

As many of you have loved, I'm sure, I have always LOVED Sinkhole. I have only found one forum that mentioned it with Snapcaster Mage. I would like to keep the deck strictly U/B.

I am unsure whether this deck should be control or tempo. I am leaning towards tempo...Delver of Secrets, Stifle, Diabolic Edict, etc... But at the same time cannot ignore cards like Sphere of Resistance, Smokestack (which might actually fit in the tempo version), and (gasp) Nether Void (GASP!).

My main take on the difference between control and tempo is that: Control wins later in the game, Tempo wins early to mid-game. This is because control grinds it out, always denying the opponent via countermagic and ultimately Jace/Nethervoid; whereas tempo always stays one step ahead by flooring the pedal (or rather, dumping their hand/resources in a frenzy to stay ahead i.e. stifle their fetch/goblin lackey trigger/stoneforge mystic trigger) There are several articles detailing tempo already.

I have only bearly begun compiling potential cards for the deck, and yes, half of them are legacy staples:


Snapcaster Mage
Sinkhole
Daze
Force of Will
Force Spike
Wasteland
Smallpox
Nether Void
Delver of Secrets
Diabolic Edict
Rain of Tears
Liliana of the Veil
Stifle
Smokestack
Tombstalker
Sphere of Resistance
Jace, the Mind Sculptor


While I do not have an actual list together, my gut tells me tempo, not control. I like Diabolic edict for this mana denial/tempo kill as it neither gains your opponent life nor gives them a free basic land. And your opponent should only have one beater out. It also means you can always beat Sneak and Show.

So, there, I am leaning towards a U/B tempo deck that includes Snapcaster Mage, Sinkhole, and Diabolic Edict. What are other reasonable cards for this tempo deck? Should it in fact be a control deck? Does SinkCaster even have win potential? Many questions, looking for answers.

[troopatroop]

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster
3 Tombstalker

4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Snuff Out

4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest


Merry Christmas :P If you really want to play Diabolic Edict, I'd play something like this. Doesn't seem all that bad, but very weak to Grim Lavamancer + STP on Stalker and such. Being threat light isn't very good right now, but it doesn't really matter if they can't keep lands on their side. 22 Lands because Snappy is mana intensive.

[Whippoorwill]

Looks like a nice starting list, but I'm not a fan of that mana base. 12 Fetches, 4 colored sources and 4 wastelands seems quite fragile considering the amount of spells that will need multiple colored sources. Even cutting a Fetch or 2 for Urborg(s) would help.

I also feel like Hymn should get some consideration, but that likely depends more on the route you take (more towards black with discard & Liliana).

[troopatroop]

Looks like a nice starting list, but I'm not a fan of that mana base. 12 Fetches, 4 colored sources and 4 wastelands seems quite fragile considering the amount of spells that will need multiple colored sources. Even cutting a Fetch or 2 for Urborg(s) would help.

I also feel like Hymn should get some consideration, but that likely depends more on the route you take (more towards black with discard & Liliana).

It's 6 Colored sources + 4 Wasteland 12 Fetch. 6 Fetch targets is more than enough for a deck that wants 3 lands max, and also has Wasteland to take up land drops. I also like Hymn, but deckspace is an issue, and the deck begins to lose focus.

[klaus]

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster
3 Tombstalker

4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Snuff Out

4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest


Looks very decent to me.
Nothing obvious that I see could be improved atm..

[fetterfool]

It's 6 Colored sources + 4 Wasteland 12 Fetch. 6 Fetch targets is more than enough for a deck that wants 3 lands max, and also has Wasteland to take up land drops. I also like Hymn, but deckspace is an issue, and the deck begins to lose focus.

"a deck that wants three lands max." That's what I am talking about! Theory comes to articulation...thank you, that is a huge point.

Remember, every relevant spell in this U/B mana denial tempo deck will cost 3 or less, very important idea.

Discard does seem SWEET. Turn 1 Thoughtseize would be: Take your Noble Hierarch and save my Diabolic Edict for the one creature spell you're able to squeeze out.

Possible notion in this infant stage of the deck...Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox would open up even fewer lands in the deck AND Smallpox, though don't grow too attached to Smallpox, as it never seems to fit anywhere properly. Unless you're Reid Duke.

[GoblinSettler]

"a deck that wants three lands max." That's what I am talking about! Theory comes to articulation...thank you, that is a huge point.

Remember, every relevant spell in this U/B mana denial tempo deck will cost 3 or less, very important idea.


Isn't the idea behind this thread is Snapcaster on Sinkhole? Or is it just the combination of the two, alongside each other? It would seem nice to aim for four lands.

[Greenpoe]

Sinkhole isn't really playable anymore without Vindicate.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Sinkhole isn't really playable anymore without Vindicate.

Yeah... don't think that's true man. Definitely still playable with Stifle/Wasteland/Daze

[Kich867]

This looks a lot like Team America + Sinkhole?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Sinkhole in Team America is never a truly bad idea, but there is always a problem with the opponent just dropping a Noble Hierarch and casting their spells off the 1 land they can play + hierarch.

I would almost say put in 2 more Snuff Outs for the edicts, since this deck seems to require fast tempo. I know the dissynergy with snapcaster himself, but with the cantrips and Stifle and random other things you always will have a target.

Also can we please call this deck SnapHole. I like the ring of it better.

[fetterfool]

Here's a decklist:

x3 Snapcaster Mage
x3 Delver of Secrets
x1 Tombstalker
x1 Mundungu
x1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

x4 Thoughtseize
x4 Sinkhole

x2 Force of Will
x3 Force Spike
x3 Daze
x3 Stifle
x3 Brainstorm
x4 Diabolic Edict
x2 Snuff Out
x2 Lim-Dul's Vault

x4 Wasteland
x4 Underground Sea
x4 Polluted Delta
x1 Swamp
x1 Island
x1 Marsh Flats
x1 Verdant Catacombs
x1 Scalding Tarn
x1 Misty Rainforest
x1 Flooded Strand
x1 Bloodstained Mire
x1 Dust Bowl


At GoblinSettler: Flashing back Sinkhole with Snappy was the original intent...and I think realistically that will happen some of the time...but flashing back Stifle, Thoughtseize, Force Spike, and the occasional Brainstorm seems great too and happens on turn 3.

As for that list up there, Mundungu seems the clunkiest and should possibly be a Duress. It'd be sweet lockdown if he sticks, as if they try to bolt him with only two mana, any of the countermagic eats up their turn/mana/card, and Mundungu obviously lives. Of course he does have summoning sickness...very clunky card :frown:

Is 8 counterspells too light?? Snappy gets back Force Spike by turn 3 if you've used one...not sure if it is enough, thoughts???

[ReinVos]

Snaphole sounds like a piece of pussy that snaps back to normal even after seeing the hughest of dicks. And although that's obviously nice, it doesn't fit the theme of the deck very well.

I think I'm risking a warning for my graphic language but Legacy isn't often played by little kids so I'll just try to make my point anyway.

Maybe a couple of Ghastly Demises as they are nice with Snapcaster. I like Snuff out too. I'd split Demise and Snuff Out. And depending on if you can suffer the life loss a Dismember or two seems good as well.

[fetterfool]

I'm giving up my connection to Diabolic Edict, as you guys've pointed out it's just too slow. I'm liking 3-4 Snuff outs. Other posibilities: Ghastly Demise, Darkblast, Disfigure, and Vendetta.

I like Vendetta over Ghastly Demise (no offense guy above this post^)...the kill spells seem most relevant turns 1-3. Especially turn 1 for Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves, and Noble Hierarch. Granted...if there is a fetchland in the graveyard, Ghastly Demise is where you want to be. If there isn't a fetchland in your graveyard, then balls. 95% of the time there will be a fetch in the yard turn 1. But 5% of the time there won't be.

Darkblast takes care of those mana producers. It may also pump out a quicker Tombstalker or act as a 'draw' engine for Snapcaster Mage. Darkblast does not kill Stoneforge Mystic, Lord of Atlantis, etc. I trust Snuff Out and Force Spike can take care of those nasty two drops, looking at you Tarmogoyf.

Going off the list I posted: swap 4 Diabolic Edict for 2 more Snuff Out, and 2 Darkblast. Take out that joke card Mundungu for a Vendetta. Not wanting to take out a Delver...but only card I can see to swap out to shove one more Vendetta/Darkblast in there.

[Mr. Safety]

Don't forget about Dismember, it's still a solid removal option. I like Vendetta, but Dismember has proven itself to be really good. It's a metagame choice, really. Do you see a lot of Knight of the Reliquary? That's the one big threat that Dismember/Ghastly Demise wouldn't be able to handle reliably. Ghastly Demise is also a fantastic option.

I also think these should get some consideration (for the same reasoning as Force Spike):

Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Curfew


I think a card you are missing for playtesting is Unearth. With so few threats, I think it would gain a lot of value if they are hosed. It also opens up Innocent Blood as a sacrifice-removal instead of Diabolic Edict. Sorcery speed isn't too much of a hindrence with it being so cheap. Vendetta may be a good option...but Vendetta doesn't deal with Progenitus or Emrakul (which is why I'm guessing you're using Diabolic Edict in the first place...)

Concerning Sinkhole...how much value do you anticipate getting out of it? If you can get a turn 1 Stifle, turn 2 Sinkhole you are in great shape. It means you can play mana-denial even on mono-colored decks. I wouldn't rely on Snapcaster make doing that on turn 4 too often if you plan on Waste-ing at least once before turn 4. I think the right approach is to use Sinkhole to get you to the mid-game where Snapcaster can start leveraging card advantage. You're essentially setting anything mid-range back a turn, which is good considering I think your Maverick matchup will be even to bad.

[klaus]

"Snap Hole"

i laik!

[klaus]

"Snap Hole"

i laik!

[fetterfool]

Got some testing in tonight and discovered:

Phyrxian Dreadnought belongs in StifleNaought, not Snaphole.

Ghastly Demise is the way to go, can't believe I was doubting it. Darkblast? more like Dark Who??

Manabase was funky...can't play 6 color sources and call it a day. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgoth has been added in addition to extra basics (while losing some of the many fetches).

Delver of Secrets, not what this ManaDenial/Tempo deck really wants.

Force of Will is GARBAGE in this deck. Simply do not have the resources to chuck away two cards for a counterspell. A package of Sinkhole, Thoughtseize, Force Spike, and Daze along side good ol' Snappy gets the job done. And kill spells, don't forget about them.

While more testing needs to be done, Stillmoon Cavalier seems like he will be the heroic beater in this meta filled with Swords to Plowshares and Dismember.

Also added Mishra's Facory. Oh yeah, Dust Bowl is gone too.

And, Mister Saftey, two dismembers have been added in as they proved excellent in testing. Those darn mana producers just kept popping up, had to kill 'em!!

[Darkenslight]

I dislike the name Snap Hole: my proposal for the deck's name is "Oh Snap!"

Glad to see the testing is going well. Would you ever consider Commandeer as a sideboard card?

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Dude, the guy just said he hated Force in the deck... I don't think he's going to want to pitch 2 blue cards for a Spelljack...

Is anyone else on board with not playing Delver? I was a little confused to see OP decide that they weren't working for him?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Question:
If Snapcaster gives Flashback until EoT, and it and Sinkhole both cost two mana (totaling four), how do you plan to pull that off with three mana?

[troopatroop]

Question:
If Snapcaster gives Flashback until EoT, and it and Sinkhole both cost two mana (totaling four), how do you plan to pull that off with three mana?

With 7 Cantrips, 22 Lands, and a strategy that involves both players drawing more cards.


When you're playing Land Destruction, it's like taking reverse time walks. You're giving both players the chance to see more draw steps, hopefully not helping them. The deck only needs 3 lands to function, so I'll frequently shuffle the 4th land away if I'm unable to use it. If I have a Snapcaster in hand, Sinkhole in GY, I'll let myself get to 4 mana and Avalanche Riders them out. It's situational, but you use your library manipulation.

[fetterfool]

Dude, the guy just said he hated Force in the deck... I don't think he's going to want to pitch 2 blue cards for a Spelljack...

Is anyone else on board with not playing Delver? I was a little confused to see OP decide that they weren't working for him?

I'm on board with it. With wanting to cram removal and tempo counterspells in the deck, there's so few room for creatures. Delver probably gets hit by swords after attacking once or twice best case scenario.
Stillmoon Cavalier dodges removal and during most of the test games...Tombstalker is a hold until we can blow up all of their white sources or thoughtseize making sure his swords free path is clear. Weieners who get removed don't belong in this deck (IMO of course, always up for counter arguements, as this deck is far from teir 1). And what does "OP" stand for??

Comandeer is more or less like FOW in that it empties our hand (which is bad). Was there a specfic mathcup or card you were looking to Comandeer?


Testing report: games in which our tempo rolls smooth actually win against top teir decks. (have beaten Maverick, Bant, Combo Elves, some Revlark combo deck). smooth tempo is something like (turn one stifle/daze, turn 2 sinkhole/stifle/daze, turn 3 sinkhole/stifle/daze/snapcaster/thoughtseize) and having a snuff out is almost always a good thing.

Could not beat Deadguy, even with Stillmoon. Only tested 3 games though.

Going to test out Innocent Blood and Unearth courtesy of Mr. Safety's suggestion. Also going to add second Lim-Dul's Vault as having just the right card to keep up tempo around turn 5/6 seems key. Lim-Dul's gives you that topdeck Sinkhole into topdeck Wasteland. Or beater when it is finally time to wreck 'em.

[troopatroop]

I'm on board with it. With wanting to cram removal and tempo counterspells in the deck, there's so few room for creatures. Delver probably gets hit by swords after attacking once or twice best case scenario.
Stillmoon Cavalier dodges removal and during most of the test games...Tombstalker is a hold until we can blow up all of their white sources or thoughtseize making sure his swords free path is clear. Weieners who get removed don't belong in this deck (IMO of course, always up for counter arguements, as this deck is far from teir 1). And what does "OP" stand for??

Even if Delver gets hit by a STP, that's 1 for 1 in cards, and even in mana. Noone goes ahead in that scenario, why the fear? Also, Stalker is our main finisher, and if your other dudes are immune to STP (+ Snapcaster, who noone should Swords), he's gonna eat one more often than not. You can't count on blowing up all their white sources, but you can count on them having only 0-2 STP. You can't NOT play Delver, the most amazing 1-Drop ever, because you fear something like removal. If it's not card advantage for them, don't sweat it. OP stands for Original Post.



Comandeer is more or less like FOW in that it empties our hand (which is bad). Was there a specfic mathcup or card you were looking to Comandeer?

Sighhh to whoever thought Force was bad. I want to know what matchups they tested against. Was it Maverick, Thresh, and Burn or something? Of course FoW is bad against those decks, but it's key against several Combo and Control decks, and key for preserving tempo. I would never cut the 3x from the deck, honestly. You can't just Force the first relevant spell in the game either. You need to use it when it's something they really need to get back in the game.


Testing report: games in which our tempo rolls smooth actually win against top teir decks. (have beaten Maverick, Bant, Combo Elves, some Revlark combo deck). smooth tempo is something like (turn one stifle/daze, turn 2 sinkhole/stifle/daze, turn 3 sinkhole/stifle/daze/snapcaster/thoughtseize) and having a snuff out is almost always a good thing.


Howabout, turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Sinkhole? That's all this deck should be trying to do, imo.



Could not beat Deadguy, even with Stillmoon. Only tested 3 games though.

Haha, yeah Deadguy's gonna be an atrocious matchup. Stillmoon Cavaliers is like... really bad tho, not gonna help you anywhere.



Going to test out Innocent Blood and Unearth courtesy of Mr. Safety's suggestion. Also going to add second Lim-Dul's Vault as having just the right card to keep up tempo around turn 5/6 seems key. Lim-Dul's gives you that topdeck Sinkhole into topdeck Wasteland. Or beater when it is finally time to wreck 'em.

And this is where I see your level of Magic IQ.

Lim-Dul's Vault is a combo card. Do you know why? Card disadvantage, the same amount as Force of Will. If your Vaults at that point were cards that actually did something, you wouldn't need to go digging for an answer and miss your next draw step for 2 mana. It just really doesn't make sense.

Also, if you're looking for beefier beaters, look no farther that Tarmogoyf. I think Delver is a must play, imo.

[fetterfool]

Even if Delver gets hit by a STP, that's 1 for 1 in cards, and even in mana. Noone goes ahead in that scenario, why the fear? Also, Stalker is our main finisher, and if your other dudes are immune to STP (+ Snapcaster, who noone should Swords), he's gonna eat one more often than not. You can't count on blowing up all their white sources, but you can count on them having only 0-2 STP. You can't NOT play Delver, the most amazing 1-Drop ever, because you fear something like removal. If it's not card advantage for them, don't sweat it. OP stands for Original Post.



Sighhh to whoever thought Force was bad. I want to know what matchups they tested against. Was it Maverick, Thresh, and Burn or something? Of course FoW is bad against those decks, but it's key against several Combo and Control decks, and key for preserving tempo. I would never cut the 3x from the deck, honestly. You can't just Force the first relevant spell in the game either. You need to use it when it's something they really need to get back in the game.


Howabout, turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Sinkhole? That's all this deck should be trying to do, imo.



Haha, yeah Deadguy's gonna be an atrocious matchup. Stillmoon Cavaliers is like... really bad tho, not gonna help you anywhere.



And this is where I see your level of Magic IQ.

Lim-Dul's Vault is a combo card. Do you know why? Card disadvantage, the same amount as Force of Will. If your Vaults at that point were cards that actually did something, you wouldn't need to go digging for an answer and miss your next draw step for 2 mana. It just really doesn't make sense.

Also, if you're looking for beefier beaters, look no farther that Tarmogoyf. I think Delver is a must play, imo.

Can def try Delver out more, as he was cut rather quickly. I like your arguement that swords on him means fewer swords for Stalker. The way the deck functions against Maverick and Bant, it's not unrealistic to strip their white sources completely keep in mind.

Your arguement against Lim-Dul's just upsets me. "If your Vaults at that point were cards that actually did something, you wouldn't need to go digging for an answer and miss your next draw step for 2 mana." It's card disadvantage for sure, that's built into the card. I wish it cantripped, but it doesn't. The part where you say "if your Vaults were cards that actually did something" is really what upsets me.

You must've missed the part where I said that it finds exactly what the you need to keep tempo going. Would I rather Brainstorm into the crucially timed Sinkhole/Wasteland? Of course I would, the deck runs 4 Brainstorm for sure. Can I Lim-Dul at the end of my opponent's turn to stack my deck? Yeah.

As for Stillmoon, I am open to suggestions. He's proven ok so far. Not great. Goyf is green, looking to stick U/B.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Can def try Delver out more, as he was cut rather quickly. I like your arguement that swords on him means fewer swords for Stalker. The way the deck functions against Maverick and Bant, it's not unrealistic to strip their white sources completely keep in mind.

Your arguement against Lim-Dul's just upsets me. "If your Vaults at that point were cards that actually did something, you wouldn't need to go digging for an answer and miss your next draw step for 2 mana." It's card disadvantage for sure, that's built into the card. I wish it cantripped, but it doesn't. The part where you say "if your Vaults were cards that actually did something" is really what upsets me.

You must've missed the part where I said that it finds exactly what the you need to keep tempo going. Would I rather Brainstorm into the crucially timed Sinkhole/Wasteland? Of course I would, the deck runs 4 Brainstorm for sure. Can I Lim-Dul at the end of my opponent's turn to stack my deck? Yeah.

As for Stillmoon, I am open to suggestions. He's proven ok so far. Not great. Goyf is green, looking to stick U/B.

I've been following this thread and the more this gets discussed and refined the closer it looks to Team America or BUG Control without Goyfs and Sinkholes instead of Hymns. Lim Dul's Vault isn't good in this deck because it doesn't put the card you want into your hand, it just stacks your deck, as you say. I would sooner play Ponders over L-D's V in this deck.

Also, I don't think Stillmoon os gonna be good enough. It's protection is nice, but its a 3 drop. Clique is a way, way better 3 drop... but even then this deck doesn't want it. Just smash face with 3/2 bugs and 5/5 flyers.

EDIT - Don't get upset... it's just magic cards, obviously not personal :)

[troopatroop]

When I say doesn't "do anything", it means "affect the gamestate", or "affect the board". I'm very aware of how busted LDV is, and I've seen it played in many decks to tremendous success, but it's so pointless here. If your LDV was the Edict you need, or a Hymn, or a Goyf, you're putting yourself in a more winning position from the start. If all LDV is doing is searching for an answer, why couldn't it just be the answer to begin with? Brainstorm and Ponder give this deck great redundancy and dig already, while also replacing themselves. I'd sooner play Hymn over Vault, as it's a much better spell for this denial strategy.

When playing an attrition deck, card advantage is critical. Force is the only -1 card that we can afford to play, imo.

Post your list fetter, I would like to take a look at it. Things like Unearth + Innocent Blood, Force Spike, and Mundungu worry me. Note that you're new to the board. If you haven't gotten used to people analyzing your lists and such, it's normal to get defensive about your card choices, but that's how things run around here.

[fetterfool]

Current list:

x3 Stifle
x3 Daze
x3 Force Spike
x4 Snuff Out
x3 Ghastly Demise
x2 Dismember
x4 Brainstorm
x1 Lim-Dul's Vault

x4 Thoughtseize
x4 Sinkhole

x3 Snapcaster Mage
x2 Stillmoon Cavalier
x2 Tombstalker

x3 Mishra's Factory
x2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
x4 Wasteland
x4 Underground Sea
x4 Polluted Delta
x1 Scalding Tarn
x1 Verdant Catacombs
x2 Swamp
x1 Island

[ReinVos]

A Swords on a Delver isn't really a one for one. I get you're trading a card for a card but when you take out a beater against a tempo deck, you're gaining ground. The tempo deck must compliment their plays with attacks or they're not winning the game. I've won countless games against tempo decks by just focusing on stopping their clock. You can Sinkhole and Stifle me all day but when I take out your beaters, I'm going to get drawsteps in return, and drawsteps yield me lands.

My point is that you really want enough beaters to make sure your Stifles, Wastelands and Sinkholes actually help you win the game, opposed to stall the game. So yeah, you really want the full compliment of both Delver and Stalker. You don't want to be put back at square one when someone plows your guy by not having another creature in play/in hand.

Maybe Vendilion Clique is worth considering. Three mana might not be ideal but another flyer with good power could just be what the deck needs.

[troopatroop]

A Swords on a Delver isn't really a one for one. I get you're trading a card for a card but when you take out a beater against a tempo deck, you're gaining ground. The tempo deck must compliment their plays with attacks or they're not winning the game. I've won countless games against tempo decks by just focusing on stopping their clock. You can Sinkhole and Stifle me all day but when I take out your beaters, I'm going to get drawsteps in return, and drawsteps yield me lands.

Things I know, but big picture, STP is the ONLY card that slows us down. Whether it's targeting our Delver, Goyf, or Tombstalker, it's the best card in their deck. Having it aimed at Delver is actively good for us, right? Not that it doesn't hurt alot, because we're a threat light deck, you're right, but it's the best thing for it to target.



Maybe Vendilion Clique is worth considering. Three mana might not be ideal but another flyer with good power could just be what the deck needs.

I'm inclined to agree with you. At worst it pitches to Force, but more evasive guys is exactly what the deck wants.



x3 Stifle
x3 Daze
x3 Force Spike
x4 Snuff Out
x3 Ghastly Demise
x2 Dismember
x4 Brainstorm
x1 Lim-Dul's Vault

x4 Thoughtseize
x4 Sinkhole

x3 Snapcaster Mage
x2 Stillmoon Cavalier
x2 Tombstalker

x3 Mishra's Factory
x2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
x4 Wasteland
x4 Underground Sea
x4 Polluted Delta
x1 Scalding Tarn
x1 Verdant Catacombs
x2 Swamp
x1 Island


Geez, where to begin. You're playing 9! removal spells. That's indicative of a control deck, as are your Mishra's Factories... so you're playing 7 colorless sources of mana?... 7 Creatures, and 5 of them only 2 power? I see the Urborgs...I'm gonna cut the cards that I personally don't like here, and explain why for each card. Feel free to disagree, but articulate specifically why.

Mishra's Factory: I can't support this in the Sinkhole deck, that also plays many spells requiring U. It just doesn't work. It's offensive ability is only such against an empty board, and the colorless mana is close to useless. If they Wasteland your Underground, and all you have left is a Factory... you're too easily screwed. Especially off the mulligan, you just can't afford one of your Lands to be a manasource that sucks. Also, You shouldn't count on having one of your two Urborgs. I'd cut all of these.

Force Spike: I haven't seen Spike seriously suggested for a decklist in a long time. I've played this card alot actually, back in the day, and it didn't let me down all that often.... I suppose in an early game deck like this, with so much mana denial, it's a decent home for the card. That being said, I just like Spell Pierce and Snare so much more. With Mana curves being lower today than in the past, you can't count on someone ramping up to a big spell or creature. Also, you get hit by anyone trying to play around Daze really hard.

x4 Stifle
x3 Daze
x3 Force of Will/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare
x4 Snuff Out
x1 Dismember
x1 Ghastly Demise
x4 Brainstorm
x2 Ponder
x3 Thoughtseize
x4 Sinkhole

x4 Delver of Secrets
x3 Snapcaster Mage
x3 Tombstalker
x1 Vendilion Clique

x4 Wasteland
x4 Underground Sea
x4 Polluted Delta
x1 Flooded Strand
x1 Misty Rainforest
x1 Scalding Tarn
x1 Verdant Catacombs
x1 Marsh Flats
x1 Bloodstained Mire
x1 Swamp
x1 Island

Try this list out, and try to note how the deck plays differently with 11 creatures. Losing Mishra's Factory might be tough for you to swallow, but the card isn't very strong in todays meta, and it's very contrary to a tempo gameplan. This build might need another land with only 16 colored sources, but that'll come with testing. Just some ideas :)

[thefreakaccident]

You guys should strongly consider running a copy of volrath's stronghold... With snapcaster it really helps you out if the game goes long.

[Greenpoe]

You guys should reconsider adding a tiny white splash for Vindicate. When running 4 Stifle, Wasteland isn't too scary. Or if not Vindicate, then Hymn. Hymn is a fantastic tempo card and can always hit lands!
Also, remember that you don't want too much removal when you could just have more threats. After all, you'll counter some creatures, others will get discarded via Thoughtseize, Stoneforge can get hit by Stifle, and some you can block with an extra threat. I'd rather have too many threats than not enough.

[TheyCallMeTim]

As many of you have loved, I'm sure, I have always LOVED Sinkhole. I have only found one forum that mentioned it with Snapcaster Mage. I would like to keep the deck strictly U/B.

Such as this one I started in October: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22474-BU-w-Sinkblade
I've been looking at reviving the idea and the discussion may be relevant here. Sure, it started out UBw but evolved into BU discussion also.

[fetterfool]

Wow, thought this thread was gone forever. I boxed this deck after it sucking. Gave up too easily.

@troopatroop, all of your comments are valid. It really was a lame control deck. The deck performed well in the early game such that it denied everything opponent did. But then deck has to top deck one of the only threats in it, while your opponent plops a couple mana and a legacy Knight and kills you. The last list you posted does look good.

@snappingbowls: I have been looking over Team America lists, and this list has basically become Team America, aside from the sinkholes.

@TheyCallMeTim, I don't think we were the only ones to think of snapping back sinkhole. I just don't think it's going to be a viable strategy. After losing my emotional attachment to Sinkhole and looking at decklist objectively, it should really just be Hymn to Tourach.

@thread, This really did just evolve into B/U Team America. Oh well!!

[fetterfool]

I suddenly feel renewed about this. Here's a list I am excited about. This is basically troopatroop's list, with slight modifications, mainly Surgical Extraction. It has utility function to get rid of either dual lands or Swords to Plowshares (as this deck is hoping to win on the back of just a coupla creatures). Let me know if that is even a viable strategy, or should they just be more Spell Pierce.

x4 Tombstalker
x4 Delver of Secrets
x2 Snapcaster Mage
x1 Vendilion Clique

x4 Thoughtseize
x3 Hymn to Tourach
x3 Sinkhole
x4 Daze
x1 Spell Pierce
x3 Stifle
x2 Snuff Out
x2 Dismember
x4 Brainstorm
x2 Surgical Extraction

x3 Island
x2 Swamp
x4 Underground Sea
x4 Polluted Delta
x1 Misty Rainforest
x1 Verdant Catacombs
x2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
x4 Wasteland

Too late in the weekend to test, but I have this all sleeved up for some testing during the week. Goldfishing looked as good as goldfishing can.

Lastly, let's go Giants!!!

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

I'm playing this deck now and your list looks pretty good. I'd cut the MD Surgicals for one more Spell Pierce and one more Hymn, though. Also, about the Snuff Outs... I think Dismember is better, it has more flexibility in terms of life and can kill Dark Confidant and Tombstalker. Snuff Out being free is obviously great and can kill Knights of the Reliquary no matter (sometimes are 6/6 and 7/7!)what so I guess its a matter of preference.

I'd also go down to x3 Tombstalker for either another Stifle or another Vendilion Clique. In my list I've been testing 3 Cliques, but I think I'll go back to 2. So I would recommend playing x2 Cliques. So I would definitely play x4 stifle and x4 hymn and another clique, Snuff Out vs. Dismember is whatever you like more I think.