About Vintage

[xfxf]

Hey guys,

I know the discussion in the forum is focused on Legacy but I hope that my topic will still be acceptable since it's semi Legacy related too.

Lately I'm having the itch for Vintage and I'm soon moving to France. I'm strongly considering whether I should start collecting the power 9 or not. There are several things in my mind and I can't just pull the trigger on power.

First, I already have the BUG staples for Legacy with Duals and Forces and for the same amount I'm spending on power I can expand to several top tier decks in Legacy.

Second, with Modern I feel like Legacy will really replace Vintage (once Modern cleans up its ban list) and I can't be sure if investing in more Legacy staples is a longer term investment than the power 9.

And finally I don't know how the Vintage scene in France is, if there are tournaments with proxies allowed, if it's easy to find people to play with or not. If there are French Sourcers here could you chip in?

What are your thoughts?

[Scordata]

From what I've heard, France has a thriving Legacy, Vintage AND EDH scene.

I would wait and see what the climate is like there, before investing in any serious cardboard.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

From a monetary point of view, P9 are generally a rather solid investment, at least in Europe. There are simply so few of them in existence that they're unlikely to lose value as long as Magic doesn't collapse. If Vintage doesn't suddenly explode in popularity they're also weak objects for speculation, though, as demand is unlikely to rise.

As far as a Vintage scene is concerned, I lived in France till three years ago and Vintage had regular tournaments all over France with a reasonable turnout. Tournaments were 99.9% no proxies.
Today I'm not sure but I know there is the Bazar of Moxen tournament once a year, a tournament with Legacy on Saturday and (no proxy) Vintage on Sunday that generally has a very good turnout so I suspect the scene is still alive and kicking. If you speak some French (I guess you do considering you'll move there) you can also check out Solomoxen.com, the afaik biggest French Vintage site. The people there should be able to help you out.

Hope that helps!

/edit: Just skimmed Solomoxen, it looks like Proxies are actually starting to be used more in France.

[SpeakingofJager]

Its my understanding P9 is cheaper over here. I know a few vendors who have most of their P9 bought out when European players come state side and see how "cheap" they are. So, its just a thought, but id try getting it over here.

[Solaran_X]

Its my understanding P9 is cheaper over here. I know a few vendors who have most of their P9 bought out when European players come state side and see how "cheap" they are. So, its just a thought, but id try getting it over here.
They won't be cheaper much longer over there.

The rise of the Euro is what allowed the Europeans to buy up American Power and take it en masse across the ocean. The Euro had a much higher value than the dollar at the time, and logically so due to being backed by the economies of 27 nations versus a currency backed by only a single economy.

Today, we have Greece and Italy on the verge of default and Spain not far behind them. And when those three go (not if, when - they're in a death spiral that no amount of bailouts will save at this point, at least for Italy and Greece. Spain is salvageable, but it's going to hurt the Spanish), the Euro is going to collapse unless the EU cuts off the arm to save the body (kicks Greece, Italy, and Spain out of the EU to save the other 24 nations in the EU). And even then, the Euro will have a heavy hit and drop significantly in value.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see the EU discontinue the Euro and tell all it's member-nations to return to their national currencies to prevent another overspending fiasco such as the one the EU is going through right now because of Greece and Italy. And without the purchasing power of the Euro, the prices of Power will likely gain an equity between America and Europe.

[TheElvishPiper]

I would invest in power 9 rather than expand more legacy decks. Plus, Vintage is a really fun format :cool:

[socialite]

Vintage:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7168/6576136375_9e66049410_o.jpg

Legacy:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7009/6576136307_07dbc30ca2_o.jpg

Pick your lifestyle.

[ParkerLewis]

They won't be cheaper much longer over there.

The rise of the Euro is what allowed the Europeans to buy up American Power and take it en masse across the ocean. The Euro had a much higher value than the dollar at the time, and logically so due to being backed by the economies of 27 nations versus a currency backed by only a single economy.

Today, we have Greece and Italy on the verge of default and Spain not far behind them. And when those three go (not if, when - they're in a death spiral that no amount of bailouts will save at this point, at least for Italy and Greece. Spain is salvageable, but it's going to hurt the Spanish), the Euro is going to collapse unless the EU cuts off the arm to save the body (kicks Greece, Italy, and Spain out of the EU to save the other 24 nations in the EU). And even then, the Euro will have a heavy hit and drop significantly in value.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see the EU discontinue the Euro and tell all it's member-nations to return to their national currencies to prevent another overspending fiasco such as the one the EU is going through right now because of Greece and Italy. And without the purchasing power of the Euro, the prices of Power will likely gain an equity between America and Europe.

No offense, but I wouldn't put too much confidence in your arguments. I mean, you apparently don't even know that the Eurozone is different than the EU...

Also, I didn't want to enter into the details, but this was too huge to pass up, so : the simple number of countries involved has absolutely nothing to do with the strongness of a currency (if anything, it's more of a liability).

Finally, concerning the likely outcome, I'd say it's still far, far more likely the euro won't break. The consequences would be so catastrophic (if only by the massive real-value increase of countries' debts because of the equally massive devaluation their new currency would suffer - except of course for Germany which would see an adjustment in the other way) that I'm quite confident things will be done to avoid that. One of these things would be quite easy, allowing the ECB to guarantee the member states' debts, as every other federal bank in the world is allowed to (now the debate of is that right, and what other things should also be done at the same time for this to be "right", is another topic).

[dontbiteitholmes]

Vintage:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7168/6576136375_9e66049410_o.jpg

Legacy:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7009/6576136307_07dbc30ca2_o.jpg

Pick your lifestyle.

You forgot

Modern:
http://www.acuraworld.com/forums/attachments/f74/25042d1189773190-opinions-what-i-should-do-next-cardboard-ricer.jpg

[Skeggi]

While all the car comparisons are very cute, I wouldn't invest in P9. But that's because I don't want to play Vintage anymore. If you want to play Vintage, if you have the money for it, buy the power you need. Don't buy it as an investment because while the prices of P9 is quite stable, it's also not going to rise, but rather fall a bit because the format is alot less popular.

[xfxf]

Skeggi, when I call it an investment I don't mean an investment in monetary terms but an investment I'm making in the game. With a certain amount of expenditure I'd like to create the optimal card pool to give me wider options. Investing in more Legacy means more decks and strategies I can play, investing in power means a new format.

The thing is I don't really like the current state of Legacy. The oh-so diverse format is full of Snapcasters, SFM, Vendilion Clique etc. With each new print set more Type 2 creatures are introduced into the format and I feel indifferent for all of the decks around. It's too creature heavy, there is no real control, too much UW Blade decks around, control is mostly midrange decks with a clunky aggro side, every new set impacts the meta a great deal and invalidates certain decks. It doesn't feel like an eternal format.

[Skeggi]

Well, as I said: if you want to play Vintage you should buy some Power, perhaps even some Workshops. Or you're playing Dredge, in that case buy some Bazaars. Either way, looks to me you want to play Vintage, so I think you don't need our 'advice' but just go out there, buy the cards play the format and have fun. France has a very active Eternal community, every year there's Bazaar of Moxen, which is perhaps the most awesome eternal tournament. Or so I heard, it's still on my to-do list :wink:

[Royal Ass.]

I love Type 1 and it's my favorite format. It's really a shame that it has died out due to card supply. If there was a decent card supply for Type 1 I really think it would be more popular than Legacy, or at least on par. I have no idea what the scene is like in France but, it sounds like it's pretty vibrant. That being said if you really want to get into Type 1 than you should get power and go balls to the wall. I own power and unfortunately Type 1 had died out where I live and I only get play occasionally with a friend of mine who still has all his cards. I enjoy those games more than any other format. I really wish there was a Type 1 scene where I lived. People who make negative comments about the format generally know very little about it and have never played it. That being said there are some who legitimately don't like it as it's not for everyone.

Also, Power retains its value pretty well so you can always sell out of it for about what you paid to get in (if you are patient and find good deals) and possibly make some money over a long term.

I don't know if it's the nostalgia and the history behind the game, but something about playing mox's and Lotus and Ancestral ets is awesome and can't be replaced by any other format. Owning the cards is like owning part of the history of the game.

[dontbiteitholmes]

My best advice:

99% of the time you don't need power to play vintage. This is the #1 thing you should keep in mind when considering whether or not to buy power. Power 9 has traditionally gone up in value, at the same time the world economy has never been shakier. If the economy in Europe goes sour the price of power will go down and the currency will be worth much less than it is now when compared to the dollar. If this happens and you need to sell the power for personal reasons you will likely end up letting it go for less than you paid for it as selling it to America will result in a severe loss on exchange rate alone and if Europe is shaky there will be increased supply of power for sale with people who need money to make it through a recession and decreased demand as people don't buy $500 game pieces when they are worried about getting their jobs cut.

Basically it comes down to this. Having power is really cool, as a fellow nerd I know it feels awesome to add expensive and rare cards to your collection. Power is like the Lamborghini of Magic cards. It's like a status symbol, and it makes you feel good, but in the end you don't need a Lambo to have a nice ride. Ironically the most expensive cards in the game are the least relevant, the only real event in North America I'm aware of where you actually NEED power is the Vintage World Champs at GenCon. If this isn't the case in Europe as well it certainly will be soon as it's always better to have 5 times as many people show up to your event.

So if it makes you happy to own power and you can afford it fuck it, you only live once. If you look into the future and see yourself wishing you had the money don't do it. Also note that bringing out power in public will immediately make you a target of thieves.

[JACO]

My best advice:

99% of the time you don't need power to play vintage. This is the #1 thing you should keep in mind when considering whether or not to buy power. Power 9 has traditionally gone up in value, at the same time the world economy has never been shakier. If the economy in Europe goes sour the price of power will go down and the currency will be worth much less than it is now when compared to the dollar. If this happens and you need to sell the power for personal reasons you will likely end up letting it go for less than you paid for it as selling it to America will result in a severe loss on exchange rate alone and if Europe is shaky there will be increased supply of power for sale with people who need money to make it through a recession and decreased demand as people don't buy $500 game pieces when they are worried about getting their jobs cut.

Basically it comes down to this. Having power is really cool, as a fellow nerd I know it feels awesome to add expensive and rare cards to your collection. Power is like the Lamborghini of Magic cards. It's like a status symbol, and it makes you feel good, but in the end you don't need a Lambo to have a nice ride. Ironically the most expensive cards in the game are the least relevant, the only real event in North America I'm aware of where you actually NEED power is the Vintage World Champs at GenCon. If this isn't the case in Europe as well it certainly will be soon as it's always better to have 5 times as many people show up to your event.

So if it makes you happy to own power and you can afford it fuck it, you only live once. If you look into the future and see yourself wishing you had the money don't do it. Also note that bringing out power in public will immediately make you a target of thieves.

Your best advice actually sucks, for someone moving to Europe. In America the only sanctioned tournament that matters is Vintage Champs at GenCon, as you mentioned. However, all of the bigger European tournaments are sanctioned and non-proxy environments. There are some smaller Vintage tournaments in France and GB that allow proxies, but most of them are sanctioned and do not.

To the original poster, if you're going to jump into Vintage, proxy some decks up and start testing to see what you think you'd like to play in Vintage. You can likely trade off your excess duals, Forces, Wastelands, and other things you don't absolutely need or won't frequently use and insert some cash to get the small handful of Vintage staples that don't cross over formats (P9, Time Vault, Oath of Druids, etc.). Buy on MOTL or eBay, as the prices there will more than likely be 10-40% cheaper than you'll find locally in Europe (mostly due to the Euro vs. Dollar buying power, and less supply).

[dontbiteitholmes]

Your best advice actually sucks, for someone moving to Europe. In America the only sanctioned tournament that matters is Vintage Champs at GenCon, as you mentioned. However, all of the bigger European tournaments are sanctioned and non-proxy environments. There are some smaller Vintage tournaments in France and GB that allow proxies, but most of them are sanctioned and do not.


While that may be true right now it's mostly because a Euro to dollar conversion makes an $900 Lotus practically a $400 card for people in France since a Euro has been about $1.30-$1.5 and the minimum wage in France is like 9 euro. Here's a pro-tip though. Don't bet on euros right now. If the euro goes down significantly, which is looking pretty likely, that turns a Lotus into a much more expensive card as the conversion rate won't give you a 15-30% discount at the door, and at the same time, if the Euro goes down inflation in the Eurozone goes up since Black Lotus's aren't the only item imported into France that means gas/food/clothing goes up and it's harder to justify spending huge money on a game. If that happens some players will sell cards to shore up for a tough economy and tournament organizers may be faced with a decision to allow proxies or suffer lower tournament attendance.

Really the only downside to proxies is they are ugly, sanctioning Vintage gives you Planeswalker Points and no one cares. At least with ELO a powered Vintage tournament was a good place to build eternal rank, now you would probably get more points playing in a sealed PTQ than T8ing a 100 person Vintage event. One day GenCon will be the only relevant event with sanctioned Vintage and one day even that will either stop or WotC will undig the hole that is the reserve list (most likely Vintage will just go to 100% proxy). It's just a matter of whether it will be next year or 2 years, or 3-4, but Europe will not have sanctioned vintage much longer. Shit was pretty popular here too when the power was under $450 average, the decline of the Euro will probably accelerate the demise of sanctioned vintage.

Bottom line, my advice is probably the best advice he's going to get, because regardless of the fact that I was wrong about not needing power in Europe the main point I was trying to make is that he should look at what's going on in the world around him and determine whether buying power could potentially be something he regrets down the road. It's similar to the advice I gave to all the smart kids who were speculating on Legacy and Modern cards back in August. Realize that Magic is a game and never look at your collection as money in the bank until it's sold. If you want to buy Power and you can afford to take a hit and sell or survive on savings if the economy goes south do what you want. Just don't count on being able to turn around and sell cards for what you paid for them with the current financial climate. The first things to lose value in a recession are collectibles for obvious reasons.

[honestabe]

regardless of the fact that I was wrong about not needing power in Europe the main point I was trying to make is that he should look at what's going on in the world around him and determine whether buying power could potentially be something he regrets down the road.

Then why didn't you bold that?

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Words should stand or fall based solely on their merits... Not on how italicized or bolded they are. I guess he just assumed that people involved in the conversation would read everything he wrote, which rarely works in a forum situation. People will generally pick and choose the points they feel comfortable arguing, this is part of what detracts from the credibility of discourse on internet forums.

[jamesh]

if you have to ask yourself:

should i collect power?

you shouldn't, and you never will
those who own power, never bother themselves with such trivial questions

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

What the fuck does that mean?

If you don't have power, and are thinking about buying into it; you never will?

Obviously people who already own the cards wouldn't think about buying the cards they already own, you would think that goes without saying... So, it's more moot than trivial...

That was a really, really stupid and completely unhelpful post.

[xfxf]

Wow people got very passionate about the discussion, I didn't expect that. Well I think dontbiteitholmes' advice is actually pretty decent on financial terms. I'm in my late 20s and have a decent job but still buying a set of P9 for a non-pro Magic player is not an easy decision to make. You are basically spending around 4000$ for a hobby. Is it worth it, will you be able to enjoy your hobby as much as you'd like to or would the money be better in the bank or in some portfolio gaining value? If I'm asking myself whether I should collect them or not it means I don't have enough cards to trade as currency and the cost of P9 will be coming out of my pocket from hard earned cash :)

Having said that I proxied a couple of T1 decks in tappedout.net and had a blast playing with them. I really dislike the T2 power creep in Legacy currently and looking for a home. I started considering a buy-in into Vintage when I realized that if I wanted to expand into UW/Bant colors in Legacy it would cost me around 700$ (with Tundras and a bunch of other stuff) which would certainly lose value over time (Snapcasters for 30? Noble Hierarch for 17?) on the other hand I could get two beat up Moxen for the same price which will always be strong.

Maybe it's a problem I'm having with Legacy but everyone seem to be enjoying it a lot and thinks that the format is awesome. I think there is too much new stuff in it with not enough old stuff and it feels underpowered, too much Standardish.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Wow people got very passionate about the discussion, I didn't expect that. Well I think dontbiteitholmes' advice is actually pretty decent on financial terms. I'm in my late 20s and have a decent job but still buying a set of P9 for a non-pro Magic player is not an easy decision to make. You are basically spending around 4000$ for a hobby. Is it worth it, will you be able to enjoy your hobby as much as you'd like to or would the money be better in the bank or in some portfolio gaining value? If I'm asking myself whether I should collect them or not it means I don't have enough cards to trade as currency and the cost of P9 will be coming out of my pocket from hard earned cash :)

Having said that I proxied a couple of T1 decks in tappedout.net and had a blast playing with them. I really dislike the T2 power creep in Legacy currently and looking for a home. I started considering a buy-in into Vintage when I realized that if I wanted to expand into UW/Bant colors in Legacy it would cost me around 700$ (with Tundras and a bunch of other stuff) which would certainly lose value over time (Snapcasters for 30? Noble Hierarch for 17?) on the other hand I could get two beat up Moxen for the same price which will always be strong.

Maybe it's a problem I'm having with Legacy but everyone seem to be enjoying it a lot and thinks that the format is awesome. I think there is too much new stuff in it with not enough old stuff and it feels underpowered, too much Standardish.

Yeah Legacy will probably settle down sooner or later. A lot of new card really shook up the format recently, Surgical Extraction, Delver, Snapcaster, and Dismember are all serious game changers. WotC has been indicating for a long time they want creatures turning sideways to define the game and it looks like they got their wish.

I'm thinking of getting Power as well. I doubt I'll make it to a full set before I lose interest but I plan on quitting smoking for New Years and if I can do that it means an extra $30 a week in my pocket. Then I plan on taking everything I win in events and any T2 stuff I'm not using and building it up to work towards Power.

[socialite]

Do I really need to post more pictures reiterating how awesome Type 1 is?

4000.00$ on a hobby is jack shit. Over time you have any idea how much cocaine costs?

Also, Steve Mcqueen. In bold because its the best advice I can give.

[Koby]

Vintage is awesome! There's no substitute to holding on to an Black Lotus.

I too would post my power, but it looks almost identical to Ertai's set (UL, NM-, missing Emerald, Jet)

[Solaran_X]

You are basically spending around 4000$ for a hobby. Is it worth it, will you be able to enjoy your hobby as much as you'd like to or would the money be better in the bank or in some portfolio gaining value?
What I spend on Magic, both Vintage AND Legacy, in a year is significantly less than the money a lot of people spend on alcohol and tobacco products in the same time frame.

And unlike them, I have more to show for it than just a beer gut and a bad cough.

[Picc]

Honestly 4k seems daunting at first but if you think that's a lot for hobby items you only play with "once a year" you should look at the true dungeon they run at gencon. Those guys only get to play once a year and lots of them drop 4-8k on tokens every single year to play a game with only a few thousand followers and supported by 1 guy. Our game is followed by millions and supported by Hasbro (aka much more stable).

As people have pointed out you also don't necessarily need power to play vintage (it helps a lot though). You can always start with 10 proxy (surprisingly cheap actually given that if your posting here you already likely have the land base) or do an on color deck like the gate (only needs black mox and lotus) or dredge.

To the OP specifically if you can afford power (ie it wont make you miss rent or eat KD from a month solid) go for it. Top decking a real lotus is one hell of a high if you appreciate the history of this game and its amazing how often you can find excuses to play them if you have the cards.

[xfxf]

And today I thought I made up my mind. 2012 would be a better year for Legacy and instead of getting power I'd spend that money to enjoy Legacy without restrictions. After reading the posts here I'm biting my fist :D

[xfxf]

Sorry to necro the thread :)

Have any of you used magiccardmarket.eu for your expensive purchases. I'm still debating whether I should get power or not and seeing some real sweet deals there. It's a P2P site and people are really helpful (providing scans etc.) but I'm kind of worried about fake cards. Hell, for the real good fakes (xerox employee story...) I probably wouldn't be able to tell it buying from a store and seeing the card in person but I'm still unsure.

Do you guys think it's worth the risk (or if there is considerable risk)?

[jandax]

P2P standards set by eBay are pretty high. MCM.eu is pretty good though. Trust feedback and reputation, and avoid sellers from countries with bad postal systems.

I know a guy with sets of minty Beta/UNL power, PM me and I can give you his info. He has a brick and mortar store, no question he's legit.

[Michael Keller]

Vintage is by far the most expensive format to get into. If you want to try it out and have the means, go for it.

Sometimes restating the obvious is the most obvious way to explain things.

[wmagzoo7]

Maybe I posting something like this on a Legacy forum such as The Source is preaching to deaf ears, but as a Vintage player I couldn't help myself because there is so much wrong with this thread. To start, you absolutely need power to play Vintage in Europe as Jaco said, and the format is thriving there. Also, I don't think that with huge tournaments such as the BOM getting massive numbers of people who already have fully powered decks, that Greece will be the death knell to Sanctioned Vintage in Europe.

Yes, Vintage is expensive, and no you should not be buying Power if you look at it merely as a financial investment, but it is worth noting to all of the uninformed out there that the price of Power is indeed rising. Rather steadily, I might add, though that's something that Legacy players don't want to hear about, as they watch the price of most Legacy cards bounce around.

Also, Vintage is a lot of fun. It is certainly not the land of turn 1 kills, with the metagame at least in the Northeast leaning towards creature centric decks, somewhat similarly to Legacy. While I don't mean that you should expect to win by playing nothing but vanilla creatures, creature combat is becoming more and more important as the format slows down as new creatures get more and more playable due to the power creep.

[socialite]

Maybe I posting something like this on a Legacy forum such as The Source is preaching to deaf ears, but as a Vintage player I couldn't help myself because there is so much wrong with this thread. To start, you absolutely need power to play Vintage in Europe as Jaco said, and the format is thriving there. Also, I don't think that with huge tournaments such as the BOM getting massive numbers of people who already have fully powered decks, that Greece will be the death knell to Sanctioned Vintage in Europe.

Yes, Vintage is expensive, and no you should not be buying Power if you look at it merely as a financial investment, but it is worth noting to all of the uninformed out there that the price of Power is indeed rising. Rather steadily, I might add, though that's something that Legacy players don't want to hear about, as they watch the price of most Legacy cards bounce around.

Also, Vintage is a lot of fun. It is certainly not the land of turn 1 kills, with the metagame at least in the Northeast leaning towards creature centric decks, somewhat similarly to Legacy. While I don't mean that you should expect to win by playing nothing but vanilla creatures, creature combat is becoming more and more important as the format slows down as new creatures get more and more playable due to the power creep.

+1

[xfxf]

I'm not debating the powers' value as a financial investment. Vintage look really fun and I've tried a couple of decks with proxies so far (east coast gush and kuldotha mud) and they both were a blast to play. What I'm considering is while it can be hard to find even Legacy players around whether it makes sense to buy-in to Vintage.

The second point why I necro'ed the thread was about purchasing power online. Reputation systems are nice and all but someone can get a good enough reputation selling lesser cards only then to pass fakes around..But on the other hand you could be paying premium to a store just for security and even then you can't really be sure that you are being sold a fake.

I'm basically trying to determine the most sensible way to acquire power at this point. All the responses were really insightful and it's true that Vintage is a blast but the deciding factor will probably still come down to the ease of acquisition of these items :)