Dark Ascension in Legacy [Archive] - Page 2

Antonius

01-17-2012, 09:24 PM

So we have Jotun Grunt, Withered Wretch (among others), and Scavenging Ooze. How about something strong for red without necessarily giving it to blue as well? Obviously graveyard hate is available to all colors, so it's not like it would bend the color pie.

R
enchantment
whenever a player casts a spell with flashback, ~ deals damage equal to that spells casting cost to that player.
whenever a creature enters the battlefield from a graveyard ~ deals damage equal to that creature's CMC to that creature's controller.

bowvamp

01-17-2012, 10:11 PM

Sorry Antonius, but I doubt that would be playable. How about:
RR
Artifact
^ yes, that's possible now
At the beginning of each upkeep, ~ deals 1 damage to each Planeswalker in play and 1 damage to you.
When a red creature enters the battlefield, choose one -- return target non-island land from your graveyard to play tapped, or ~ deals damage to target creature or player equal to the number of blue permanents under target opponent's control.

This card would give red what it's already got, but more than that, all on the same piece of cardboard. Repeatable burn? Check. Blue hate? Check. Buffing red creatures? Check. Self damage? Check.
I threw in the land ability so it wouldn't be too niche.

Anyways, that's what I'd make if I were to try and fix red.

In other news, Huntmaster of the Fells still looks pretty good to me in Aggro Loam. Therefore, I'm testing him in a build.

from Cairo

01-17-2012, 10:36 PM

R
enchantment
whenever a player casts a spell with flashback, ~ deals damage equal to that spells casting cost to that player.
whenever a creature enters the battlefield from a graveyard ~ deals damage equal to that creature's CMC to that creature's controller.

Seems like something Wizards would print. Reminds me of Browbeat. Letting the Red players opponent decide whether it's more profitable to play through the enchantment reaping the rewards of their GY based shenanigans or to navigate around the Enchantment/dig for a solution.

IE Reanimator will probably go ahead and Exhume/Animate Dead Iona through it, assuming they're not risking lethal via Bolt + Fireblast in response. Or Dredge will still Therapy away some Bolts. If they want to use Reanimate or Dread Return/Ichorid recursion they'll dig for an answer to the Enchantment before taking serious damage.

I'd rather see something like...

1R
Instant
Exile target card from a GY. <name> deals 2 damage divided as you choose to that card's owner and/or one or two target creatures that player controls.

There's probably a cleaner way to word that but, idk off hand.

Antonius

01-17-2012, 10:54 PM

haha

dread returning Troll would cost 9 life. no way dredge would ever be able to swing that against a burn deck. and reanimating jin would cost life total.

from Cairo

01-17-2012, 11:04 PM

haha

dread returning Troll would cost 9 life. no way dredge would ever be able to swing that against a burn deck. and reanimating jin would cost life total.

Right, what I said was if they could play through it they would (citing a couple of examples of times where it could be navigated around), and if not they'd dig for an answer. It will sometimes buy some time, but ultimately the GY player decides, which does seem very Red from a flavor stand point, but also very bad given there is colorless hate that works.

Antonius

01-17-2012, 11:17 PM

Right, what I said was if they could play through it they would (citing a couple of examples of times where it could be navigated around), and if not they'd dig for an answer. It will sometimes buy some time, but ultimately the GY player decides, which does seem very Red from a flavor stand point, but also very bad given there is colorless hate that works.

well if it was worded to burn for creatures cmc from library it would probably be Md playable in the metagame.

Zenith for ooze? shocked you. Zenith for knight? Take a bolt to the face too.

bowvamp

01-17-2012, 11:28 PM

Lol this is derailing, but fun. How about just killing GSZ completely? With only a single colorless mana? That's better than the occasional bolt.

from Cairo

01-17-2012, 11:49 PM

heh, word.

On Dark Ascension the Cage looks pretty cool. I think it will be a bigger deal in Vintage where it attacks Tinker, Oath and Yawg Will, on top of it's Legacy applications. I kind of feel like Exiling the cards is better for Legacy since the GY based decks know to pack answers for Artifacts/Enchantments so when they have the answers it's better to atleast have knocked out some resources for one's trouble.

As people have said, I think opponent's boarding the Cage in against GSZ and Snapcaster Mage is going to be pretty loose. I mean I guess 1-2 Cages could come in to knock out 3-4 Zeniths, but that leaves the issue that Maverick still has near unparallelled threat density and the Cages don't do a lot of good when staring down Knight of the Reliquary (and Qasali Pridemage who answers the card while being a phenomenal threat). Same can be said for Snapcaster, I mean if an opponent lands a Cage, then the Blue player can Brainstorm or Jace + Fetch away the Snapcaster Mage (or pitch it to Force of Will), or if they want a Flash Grizzley Bear they can take it at that.

It does seem solid as an Enlightened Tutor and Trinket Mage target though, I'd definitely test it as a silver bullet if running one of those.

Greenpoe

01-18-2012, 12:28 AM

That's a good point. Boarding in Cages just because you see Snapcasters or GSZ is just a 1-for-1 trade, basically. It's basically the same as boarding in Crypt because you saw a Tombstalker. It's not great to board in if you're only attacking 1 card. If they play GSZ+NO, or Bloodghast & Nether Spirit, then that's another story. If you're only attacking one card, then you might as well just play Cabal Therapy.

I am the brainwasher

01-18-2012, 05:09 AM

The problem with Grafdigger's Cage and Mental Misstep is that they want to give strong effects to decks that aren't necessarily blue, but blue decks will just use it anyway. Then, at the end of the day, no other colors can ever catch up to blue, and blue remains the best. Because of the way that colorless mana works, you can't give stuff to white, black, red, and green without blue getting it as well.

Has this really to start again, seriously?
Go search recent top8's for blue's dominance.
And why the heck are people starting to complain about artifacts beeing colorless now?
This is ridiculous... .

Gheizen64

01-18-2012, 06:07 AM

Lingering Souls... i want to play this card : p

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127397&d=1326862875

Borderline Legacy playable imho, the biggest issue is the color.

This will make Sorin a money card sadly.

EDIT: Also, strictly better Mental Note :

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127399&stc=1&d=1326863106

catmint

01-18-2012, 06:46 AM

There is a strong BW token theme. The idea is strong in legacy with so much spot removal + snapcaster... I think lingering souls is too weak though.

Michael Keller

01-18-2012, 08:08 AM

Not that I care any, but does anyone else think the art for Thought Scour is incredibly graphic? Lol.

Sims

01-18-2012, 08:30 AM

Not that I care any, but does anyone else think the art for Thought Scour is incredibly graphic? Lol.

I like it, though I think it would have fit better in the Scars/Besieged/Phyrexia block.

Also, did anyone else notice that vampires got a B/R lord for 3 mana that gives them first strike and +1/+1? Maybe this is more a Modern application, but is vampires getting there with enough lords and decent creatures that a legitimate tribal deck might rise?

Grollub

01-18-2012, 08:32 AM

♥ Lingering Souls

Definitely going to make a UWB flashback deck for casual now,
Lingering Souls, Battle Screech, Cabal Therapy, Deep Analysis, Intuition, Quiet Speculation. Oh boy.

Hell, add green for even more flashback shenanigans and Cradle to fuel it.

Gonna be bad, but awesome.

I am the brainwasher

01-18-2012, 09:38 AM

Ultra-tempo Thresh with 8 Mental Notes it is. Yeesss.

Antonius

01-18-2012, 09:45 AM

Thought Scour = LOL @ ur brainstorm in response to my Thoughtseize. Could definitely be played in some BUG tempo.

Greenpoe

01-18-2012, 09:54 AM

Too bad Mystical is gone, or Thoughtscour might be half decent.

Barook

01-18-2012, 10:45 AM

Markov Blademaster :1::r::r:
Creature - Vampire Warrior
Double strike
Whenever Markov Blademaster deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
1/1

Edit: Nevermind, it sucks.

Sims

01-18-2012, 10:51 AM

Where did you get that one from, Barook? Sally has it spoiled as a 1/1 and not a 2/2.

Skeggi

01-18-2012, 10:57 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127406&d=1326868922

Looks 1/1 to me, making it meh.

Barook

01-18-2012, 10:59 AM

Where did you get that one from, Barook? Sally has it spoiled as a 1/1 and not a 2/2.
Oversight on my part. Well, it sucks then.

Sims

01-18-2012, 11:07 AM

Oversight on my part. Well, it sucks then.

Damn, I was actually hoping Sally copied it wrong and that it was a 2/2... seems a bit weak at 3 mana for 1/1

rufus

01-18-2012, 11:26 AM

Damn, I was actually hoping Sally copied it wrong and that it was a 2/2... seems a bit weak at 3 mana for 1/1

Barring complications it should do 3, 7, and then 11 if it hits, right? That seems like a reasonably fast clock, even for legacy.

from Cairo

01-18-2012, 11:41 AM

Also, did anyone else notice that vampires got a B/R lord for 3 mana that gives them first strike and +1/+1? Maybe this is more a Modern application, but is vampires getting there with enough lords and decent creatures that a legitimate tribal deck might rise?

I doubt it, the tribe otherwise has what? Stromkirk Noble and Gatekeeper/Vamp Nighthawk. It has some of the filler at this point, but would need a couple legitimately stand alone good 1-2 drops to really go places imo. Like if Dark Confidant was a Vampire or something.

Tribal needs to have a couple really broken cards to motivate the direction in the first place and a handful of acceptable playables to even get there. Goblins had the backbone of Lackey and Ringleader and could supplement it by providing disruption via Waste, having haste to capitalize on the disruption and generating a bunch of card advantage - Matron, Gempalm, etc. Merfolk similarly had Lord of Atlantis since the beginning of time, but it wasn't til Silvergill got printed that it had another real reason to play 'Folk, even then the deck really got it's boost from gaining the extra playables in Merrow Reejerey and Coralhelm Commander.

Having lords, even good ones, doesn't make a tribe competitive - see Knights, Soldiers, Slivers, idk probably some other ones too that are even worse. The Creature power creep the past few years makes rationalizing tribal even harder.

Octopusman

01-18-2012, 12:42 PM

We just had a thread closed that was probably titled incorrectly.

If anyone is interested in making a [SCD] Grafdigger's Cage thread, I would really like that. I think the card deserves it's own topic.

Antonius

01-18-2012, 01:10 PM

Vamps have bloodghast. That card can be damn annoying and it definitely generates CA.

Rizso

01-18-2012, 01:40 PM

Kalastria Highborn was the most important vamp in the standard vampire deck. Combined Viscera Seer and Dark Tutelage :P

joven

01-18-2012, 01:46 PM

Having lords, even good ones, doesn't make a tribe competitive - see Knights, Soldiers, Slivers, idk probably some other ones too that are even worse. The Creature power creep the past few years makes rationalizing tribal even harder.

That's true. Zombies are another example. I still hope the Innistrad block will bring more good zombies.

Immerwolf and Stormkirk Captain might belong to a allied-color lord cycle. I hope the zombie lord will be good, although it will be UB.

But I guess no legacy material to expect there.

TsumiBand

01-18-2012, 02:34 PM

When I saw the Vampire Solider Lord I kind of went "Stupid Slivers." I kind of hate that tribal decks all feel like weird Sliver decks now, but with way more accessible colors and a lot more focus, but whatever. I *do* like the idea of giving Vampire Nighthawk first strike, First Strike + Deathtouch = WHAT BITCH, WHAT

Thought Scour's art is fucking gross. I sort of have a brain-phobia when it comes to icky body parts, so I think I will never play that card, or if I do I will alter them to have pictures of something awesome, like guns or Yoda or sex or something.

Markov Blademaster just seems like more trouble than it's worth. Even good doublestrikers like Mirran Crusader don't see THAT much play, and that's a doublestriker with Protection from Maverick and inevitably gets played alongside Stoneforge Mystic, and it's not THAT beastly. Maybe I wrong, shrug. Play it with Standstill or some jank vOv

ScatmanX

01-18-2012, 03:10 PM

@Markov Blademaster:
Y U NOT A GOBLIN?
It would be so awesome...

Koby

01-18-2012, 03:14 PM

Considering we're Legacy, any 3 mana creature that isn't going to break the game open and used exclusively for aggro is going to fall to the wayside from the common removal spells.

I'm actually surprised that Phyrexian Crusader isn't seeing more play with it's Pro:Bolt and Pro:StP.

Aggro_zombies

01-18-2012, 03:18 PM

ESG

01-18-2012, 03:53 PM

Ugly, "Saw"-like art on Thought Scour. I think the artist misinterpreted it as Brain Canal.

Sims

01-18-2012, 03:59 PM

Ugly, "Saw"-like art on Thought Scour. I think the artist misinterpreted it as Brain Canal.

Horror-themed block and blue being in the Spirit/Ghosts and, more importantly, Zombie and Mad Scientist flavor? Seems spot on to me. Could have been a bit dumbed down as those machines look more Phyrexian... but I think it's still rather fitting.

from Cairo

01-18-2012, 04:15 PM

Because Pro: Common Removal isn't worth having to do damage in poison, or running a double black card in your deck.

I agree, if it had Wither rather than Infect people would definitely be using it more. Even as printed though it deserves more play than it gets.

Aggro_zombies

01-18-2012, 04:24 PM

I agree, if it had Wither rather than Infect people would definitely be using it more. Even as printed though it deserves more play than it gets.
He really needs a Sword of X and Y to be good, probably SoFF. Which means you're probably running Stoneforge and white, which means you probably want to run green so you have access to good creatures, and then you have a Junk deck that uses Crusader as your three-drop instead of Knight. And that seems bad to me.

There's not a lot of reason to run black in Legacy outside of Rituals, Bob, and Hymn.

bowvamp

01-18-2012, 11:37 PM

I think there are more reasons than Ritual, Bob, Hymn. 1cc discard/discard in general? You might not have the ability to reach double black reliably and sometimes it's better to choose one than aim to get lucky with two (read: combo). Tombstalker? This guy is not very compatible with Bob. Deed? There's a whole Landstill build revolving around it.

So yeah.

Markov dude is funny because everyone that knows an inkling of math will see him and harken back to the days spent analyzing markov proceses. For me, it goes further, having worked on a lot of hidden markov model stuff. He hardly seems playable though.

Cire

01-19-2012, 12:14 AM

Barook

01-19-2012, 12:35 AM

Geralf's Messenger BBB
Creature - Zombie
Geralf's Messenger enters the battlefield tapped.
When Geralf's Messenger enters the battlefield, target opponent loses 2 life.
Undying
3/2

Pretty good for a zombie deck?
The 3cc slot is already too crowded. Unless there is some activated ability that let's you repeatly put -1/-1 counters on your creatures without a limitation (= 2 card infinite damage combo), it's kinda meh.

An interesting card with Stifle (though the combo is too expensive to be any good in Legacy):
Sudden Disappearance :5::w:
Sorcery
Exile all nonland permanents target player controls. Return the exiled cards to the battlefield under their owners control at the beginning of the next end step.

Slate-

01-19-2012, 04:45 AM

There is hex parasite and vampire hexmage. Some undying vampire/zombie shenanigans would be a fun casual, even if it is just a themed deck.

264505

01-19-2012, 06:12 AM

The 3cc slot is already too crowded. Unless there is some activated ability that let's you repeatly put -1/-1 counters on your creatures without a limitation (= 2 card infinite damage combo), it's kinda meh.

An interesting card with Stifle (though the combo is too expensive to be any good in Legacy):
Sudden Disappearance :5::w:
Sorcery
Exile all nonland permanents target player controls. Return the exiled cards to the battlefield under their owners control at the beginning of the next end step.

Could work with Trickbind in modern out of a tron shell or something perhaps...

joven

01-19-2012, 06:13 AM

lol @ the black "Kitch Finks" zombie!

I don't think it is really good. BBB is somewhat expensive and limiting. Coming into play tapped is bad for a 3cc creature.
And I don't like the flavor of it. Where did the top down design approach go that WotC wanted to use throughout the Innistrad block?

betterthenandrew

01-19-2012, 07:31 AM

Could work with Trickbind in modern out of a tron shell or something perhaps...

Feels like 2 card, 8 mana should be winning the game, not plague winding. Though if that is you thing it also works with Sundial of the Infinite (probably in CMDR.)

kusumoto

01-19-2012, 09:05 AM

Leftconsin

01-19-2012, 09:23 AM

An interesting card with Stifle (though the combo is too expensive to be any good in Legacy):
Sudden Disappearance :5::w:
Sorcery
Exile all nonland permanents target player controls. Return the exiled cards to the battlefield under their owners control at the beginning of the next end step.

At that point you might as well play All is Dust.

TooCloseToTheSun

01-19-2012, 10:32 AM

Combos with Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter for commander fun times.

No, it doesn't. Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter gives a creture -1/-1 until end of turn not a -1/-1 counter so the +1/+1 counter stays on.

Justin

01-19-2012, 10:35 AM

Geralf's Messenger BBB
Creature - Zombie
Geralf's Messenger enters the battlefield tapped.
When Geralf's Messenger enters the battlefield, target opponent loses 2 life.
Undying
3/2

Pretty good for a zombie deck?

For three mana, why not just play a lord like Lord of the Undead or Death Baron that pumps all your other guys?

joven

01-19-2012, 10:37 AM

Combos with Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter for commander fun times.

Not quite, since according to Undying rules explanation it dies while having one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. So it does not come back. The counters eliminate each other after the state based check for toughness greater 0.

EDIT: Oops, TooCloseToTheSun was faster and is right.

Immerwolf and Stormkirk Captain might belong to a allied-color lord cycle. I hope the zombie lord will be good, although it will be UB.

According to card numbers on the spoiled cards there can be at maximum one other multicolored card in the set. So no cycle, sad. :(

makochman

01-19-2012, 10:38 AM

Excerpt from chat with Zac and Tom LaPille on Cage.

[8:04:41] WotC_Microbless:
We're getting A LOT of questions about one card in particular.

[8:04:44] WotC_Microbless:
From mtgcolorpie: Grafdigger's Cage was clearly made by Development. Is is the second block in a row where you printed
a "safety plug" in the 2nd set of the block. Is this something we're going to see regularly now after not seeing it?
2nd part: Was it printed to change up older formats?

[8:04:56] Chats:
Can I nab this one?

[8:04:58] WotC_TomLaPille:
sure!

[8:05:09] WotC_Microbless:
(you can also share the spotlight guys)

[8:05:18] Chats:
yay spotlights!

[8:05:20] Chats:
::basks::

[8:05:23] WotC_TomLaPille:
I blame Birthing Pod.

[8:05:52] WotC_TomLaPille:
We had some Birthing Pod decks we thought were really strong, and we wanted something pretty reasonable against them.

[8:05:56] Chats:
So I'm actually writing a Latest Developments about this right now. The short answer re: Cage is that, with the
increasing virtual 'speed' of Standard formats due to independent tournament circuits and more GPs, we can't afford to
wait around a year to print cards like Great Sable Stag

[8:06:36] Chats:
What this means is that we have to 'hate' pre-emptively on more archetypes that are doing well in testing, which means
the nature of our target is going to be a little harder to hit

[8:06:54] Chats:
Pod and Reanimator were both *very* strong in testing, as was Snapcaster, so we wanted a card that hit all of them.

[8:06:58] WotC_TomLaPille:
What Zac just said is also true. I think three years ago putting the Titans into M12 would have been unambiguously
correct, but now that there are so many more tournaments things need to change faster. Grafdigger's Cage is paart of
that.

[8:07:11] WotC_TomLaPille:
I'm done.

[8:07:26] Chats:
We were obviously aware of the tremendous implications of the card for older formats, but to us that was viewed as
upside, mostly. Because these formats don't rotate, you have to work a lot harder to shake them up.

[8:07:36] Chats:
That needs to happen periodically.

And now we see what their "testing" is worth.

Inferred from the bit on Titans and shakeups: formats are meant to be changing faster. All formats. So I don't think flagship core set mythics (such as Baneslayer, or the Titans) will getting reprints in the future. They also don't want another Faeries/Jund/Cawblade standard, so they design powerful hate cards in advance.

I laughed hard at Great Sable Stag.

kusumoto

01-19-2012, 10:40 AM

No, it doesn't. Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter gives a creture -1/-1 until end of turn not a -1/-1 counter so the +1/+1 counter stays on.

My bad. Well that sucks. I can't seem to find anything that works with it then.

Grollub

01-19-2012, 11:13 AM

Markov dude is funny because everyone that knows an inkling of math will see him and harken back to the days spent analyzing markov proceses. For me, it goes further, having worked on a lot of hidden markov model stuff. He hardly seems playable though.
Heh, personally he made me think of MCMC, and then Markov's Inequality. Looking forward for a Gaussian Blademaster - he'd be bound to break the game. ;-)

Rizso

01-19-2012, 11:37 AM

Excerpt from chat with Zac and Tom LaPille on Cage.

And now we see what their "testing" is worth.

Inferred from the bit on Titans and shakeups: formats are meant to be changing faster. All formats. So I don't think flagship core set mythics (such as Baneslayer, or the Titans) will getting reprints in the future. They also don't want another Faeries/Jund/Cawblade standard, so they design powerful hate cards in advance.

I laughed hard at Great Sable Stag.

Lapill loves his Sablestag :D but when stag was released faeries had already done its damage. Same was it with Rebels and Tsabo's Decree and then Affinity and Kitaki. They have repeated the same misstake over and over again. Faeriest, jund and Cawblade all had the same stuff... Faeries was monster so they pushes the otherside that was jund... faeries rotate and blue is dead... they print jace to compete... jund rotates jace becomes pretty much unstoppable.. Sword of feast and famine gets printed stoneforge gets unstoppable with jace. Both ended up banned.

Cire

01-19-2012, 11:40 AM

for the deck that I posted on the fifth page I think Geralf's Messenger could be decent

4 Strangle-root Geist
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 ? (I would LOVE a 1cc Undying)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Small Pox
2 Innocent Blood

4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
2 Go for the throat
2 Dismember
2 Tragic Slip
2 ghastly demise

4 Bayoo
2 Forest
4 Swamp
7 Fetch Lands

----
Tragic Slip B
Instant
Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
Morbid - that creature gets -13/-13 instead if a creature died this turn.

rufus

01-19-2012, 11:46 AM

Anyone think that Secrets of the Dead has potential - say in UB Zombies with Gravecrawler and Raven's Crime? I'm trying to find clear thoughts about it being win-more.

from Cairo

01-19-2012, 12:45 PM

Lapill loves his Sablestag :D but when stag was released faeries had already done its damage. Same was it with Rebels and Tsabo's Decree and then Affinity and Kitaki. They have repeated the same misstake over and over again. Faeriest, jund and Cawblade all had the same stuff... Faeries was monster so they pushes the otherside that was jund... faeries rotate and blue is dead... they print jace to compete... jund rotates jace becomes pretty much unstoppable.. Sword of feast and famine gets printed stoneforge gets unstoppable with jace. Both ended up banned.

Yea, honestly their explanation seemed pretty good. To keep the game, Standard in particular, healthy they should make an effort to be on top of overpowered archetypes with hate. Printing it the following block is better than not printing it at all, but in the 2nd set mitigates potential dominance so much more.

If people feel like they have options they're so much more likely to stay with the game. Many Legacy players I meet says the same thing they played for a while and at one point or another the game (or Standard) got stale via busted archetypes being unanswered - read as: Urza's Block, Mirrodin Block and more recently the examples Rizso mentioned above.

I think that's probably a lot of the appeal of Legacy is the amount of options. The feeling like you can always experiment with a different angle or dig up some old card as tech against a problem you're facing. Implementing more choices in Standard seems like it will help the game.

Shawon

01-19-2012, 02:02 PM

Re: Sorin vs. Elspeth

Could Gifts Ungiven provide a game plan to any control deck that can run both Sorin and Elspeth? I imagine a Gifts pile of Sorin, Elspeth, Jace, and Stoneforge to be pretty threatening.

ESG

01-19-2012, 04:16 PM

Piceli89

01-19-2012, 05:37 PM

Rizso

01-19-2012, 05:43 PM

And legacy is slow!

makochman

01-19-2012, 05:54 PM

And legacy is slow!

But why wouldn't you set up a some Gifts pile that almost wins you the game? Like, I don't know, a Iona and Unburial Rites and that's it? (Which is actually legal, see http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/853 ) Not that I think this is actually good enough for Legacy, mind you. Just that one needs to aim higher.

nedleeds

01-19-2012, 06:07 PM

That's true. Zombies are another example. I still hope the Innistrad block will bring more good zombies.

Immerwolf and Stormkirk Captain might belong to a allied-color lord cycle. I hope the zombie lord will be good, although it will be UB.

But I guess no legacy material to expect there.

They've never duplicated Lord of Atlantis and likely never will. Merfolk have the best lords for beating people up and it's not really close (Elves is a remote second for pure beatdown, maybe Slivers taking the bronze).

A Zombie lord on par with Lord of Atlantis would be something like

Zombie Digging Team Sergeant
BB

All other Zombies you control gain Undying and Swampwalk

2/2

TsumiBand

01-19-2012, 06:07 PM

But why wouldn't you set up a some Gifts pile that almost wins you the game? Like, I don't know, a Iona and Unburial Rites and that's it?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127359&d=1326776672

TsumiBand

01-19-2012, 06:09 PM

They've never duplicated Lord of Atlantis and likely never will. Merfolk have the best lords for beating people up and it's not really close (Elves is a remote second for pure beatdown, maybe Slivers taking the bronze).

A Zombie lord on par with Lord of Atlantis would be something like

Zombie Digging Team Sergeant
BB

All other Zombies you control gain Undying and Swampwalk

2/2

To be fair, Wizened Cenn is most of what Lord of Atlantis is, even though Islandwalk is relevant.

There seems to be a two-color 3cmc uncommon Lord cycle in DKA... maybe a decent enough Zombie Lord will jump out and eat someone's brain.

Mr.Dieth

01-19-2012, 06:14 PM

^what a lame response.

Like there wasn't tormod's crypt/relic/surgical extraction before

and nobody played those.

suddently gy based strategies are unviable. The card is good. But not the end all solution.

I already have tested it against dredge, it is good, but not "ZOmfG Gy based strategies CaN NevEr Win AnyMoaar"

@gifts ungiven for lots of planeswalkers: sounds a bit bad, Instead of playing gifts, the giftes could have been a planeswalker. so why play the gifts at all

Shawon

01-19-2012, 06:19 PM

But why wouldn't you set up a some Gifts pile that almost wins you the game? Like, I don't know, a Iona and Unburial Rites and that's it? (Which is actually legal, see http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/853 ) Not that I think this is actually good enough for Legacy, mind you. Just that one needs to aim higher.

I'm aware of this use of Gifts, but I was asking if the Sorin/Elspeth pile was feasible in a control deck, given that it's not reliant on the graveyard and that the pile cards are so good on their own that they don't require the deck to be built around Gifts Ungiven.

nedleeds

01-19-2012, 06:23 PM

Islandwalk is relevant.

Ya think?

In Cenn's defense his / her / it's supporting cast is pretty lame compared to Merfolk / Elves and Zombies. The other factor is that Merfolk at this point is mostly all lords, where as the poor Kithkin have but one.

Pastorofmuppets

01-19-2012, 06:39 PM

Heh, personally he made me think of MCMC, and then Markov's Inequality. Looking forward for a Gaussian Blademaster - he'd be bound to break the game. ;-)

I'm pretty sure that Gaussian Blademaster would end up fitting most decks' curves.

makochman

01-19-2012, 06:46 PM

^what a lame response.

I'm pretty sure it was a joke. In any case, it made me laugh.

@ Planeswalker pile

It seems like win more, in that a control deck can just draw into its planeswalkers and Mystic. Having to put 2 of the 4 threats into the graveyard is a bit risky, you could run out of threats if the remaining 2 are dealt with. Planeswalkers are very easy to kill with Punishing Fire and such. Heck, even the Unburial Rites pile is win more, because in the end you spend 8 mana (4 + 4) to reanimate anything.

Grollub

01-19-2012, 07:41 PM

I'm pretty sure that Gaussian Blademaster would end up fitting most decks' curves.
Almost surely. Gaussian Blademaster would be bound to eliminate quite a few DTB too.

Oiolosse

01-19-2012, 11:14 PM

I'm pretty sure that Gaussian Blademaster would end up fitting most decks' curves.

:)

Or most decks fit Gaussian Blademaster's curve.

Gheizen64

01-20-2012, 04:55 AM

Elbrus, The Binding Blade
Legendary Artifact - Equipment (M)
Equipped creature gets +1/+0.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, transform Elbrus, the Binding Blade.
Equip
////////
???
Legendary Creature - ???
Flying, trample
Whenever a player dealt combat damage by ~ this turn loses the game, put thirteen +1/+1 counters on ~.
13/13

The perfect excuse to ban SFM?

Beatusnox

01-20-2012, 04:56 AM

Lemnear

01-20-2012, 05:11 AM

Look at it: You have to Pay 7 or cheat with SFM, then equip to a creature and damage a PLAYER with it, then it flips over to a deadly creature that has to damage a Player again to Win the game without being interrupted or destroyed over 3 full turns without any attached protection or Evasion on the equip-Side.

I'm pretty sure it's the demon Avacyn fought sealed in the blade. I doubt it's viable in eternal

Gheizen64

01-20-2012, 06:06 AM

makochman

01-20-2012, 08:00 AM

I'm pretty sure it's the demon Avacyn fought sealed in the blade. I doubt it's viable in eternal

Of course it is. By inserting this one card into any random SFM deck you get a Phyrexian Dreadnought-like angle of attack. Let me reiterate: a single card that forces your opponent to kill SFM immediately or face a 13/13 if he lets any attack through.

I do seem recall that when Bruizar was describing how Batterskull is good, at first he was met with a lot of scepticism. Think of this as a high-risk, high-reward Batterskull for Aether Vial/SFM decks. High-risk in that if you tutor for it, and SFM gets killed, that's a 1-for-1 trade... And sometimes it will be a dead card, and sometimes you might flip it with Bob. Otherwise it seems like a very powerful option.

The Demon being legendary, it interacts with Karakas, which makes it even better I believe.

I do not believe this spoiler is legit, though. At least not 100% legit. A card of this caliber would have been spoiled early on, on the mothership, and with a lot of pomp.

Mr. Safety

01-20-2012, 08:07 AM

I'm aware of this use of Gifts, but I was asking if the Sorin/Elspeth pile was feasible in a control deck, given that it's not reliant on the graveyard and that the pile cards are so good on their own that they don't require the deck to be built around Gifts Ungiven.

You have to justify Gifts being better than Fact or Fiction or a more powerful 4 (or less) mana dig spell if you aren't specifically trying to abuse Gifts. MUC uses Fact or Fiction nicely and has faster ways of getting an edge (Back to Basics, a full 4 Jace, Vedalken Shackles, etc) If you're talking about an Esper Planeswalker setup, I really don't think Gifts is what you'd want.

Every time I think of using Gifts Ungiven in legacy, I can't help but think 'isn't Intuition just better?'

joven

01-20-2012, 09:46 AM

I guess Binding Blade could see play in SFM decks in Legacy. When circumventing the high casting cost with SFM, it seems pretty strong.

I think, if they print more cards like Batterskull and now Binding Blade, it could push SFM over the edge (like Vengevine and Iona did for Survival of the Fittest).

wcm8

01-20-2012, 11:02 AM

Batterskull seems safer because it creates a creature when it comes into play, and is realistically hard-castable in a control deck. This new card is flashy, but doesn't seem to offer much. A Sword of X&Y seems to have a more immediate impact when it hits and isn't quite as dead otherwise. If you land two swings with an equipped sword, you are likely winning anyways. I fail to see what niche this Demon Sword attacks that isn't already better accomplished with pre-exisiting equipment.

Wilkin

01-20-2012, 11:37 AM

You have to justify Gifts being better than Fact or Fiction or a more powerful 4 (or less) mana dig spell if you aren't specifically trying to abuse Gifts. MUC uses Fact or Fiction nicely and has faster ways of getting an edge (Back to Basics, a full 4 Jace, Vedalken Shackles, etc) If you're talking about an Esper Planeswalker setup, I really don't think Gifts is what you'd want.

Every time I think of using Gifts Ungiven in legacy, I can't help but think 'isn't Intuition just better?'

Would have to agree. The best (imo) gifts ungiven are the ones where it doesn't really matter what your opponent gives you in the end. eg. Life from the Loam, Academy Ruins, Mindslaver and Crucible of worlds. Intuition is the same usually where it's 3 different cards like that or they are all the same like Show and Tell. And Intuition is one mana cheaper for roughly the same effect, 1 less card in your hand but 1 turn sooner.

Yeah that new Equipment, Elbrus, i don't know. I laugh at when cards are spoiled people jump and scream to have cards banned. The equipped dude has to connect and gets a +1/+0 bonus. Sure the effect is awesome but A good sword or Jitte is devastating. Jitte to me is still more annoying to deal with, especially in a format with so many smaller toughness creatures around. I'm sure people will try it, but i still like Jitte, Batterskull and the various Swords more. As mentioned before, if you connect twice with any of the other equipment in legacy you are probably winning anyway.

Lemnear

01-20-2012, 11:45 AM

Of course it is. By inserting this one card into any random SFM deck you get a Phyrexian Dreadnought-like angle of attack. Let me reiterate: a single card that forces your opponent to kill SFM immediately or face a 13/13 if he lets any attack through.

I do seem recall that when Bruizar was describing how Batterskull is good, at first he was met with a lot of scepticism. Think of this as a high-risk, high-reward Batterskull for Aether Vial/SFM decks. High-risk in that if you tutor for it, and SFM gets killed, that's a 1-for-1 trade... And sometimes it will be a dead card, and sometimes you might flip it with Bob. Otherwise it seems like a very powerful option.

The Demon being legendary, it interacts with Karakas, which makes it even better I believe.

I do not believe this spoiler is legit, though. At least not 100% legit. A card of this caliber would have been spoiled early on, on the mothership, and with a lot of pomp.

You haven't Read my previous statement did you? This isn't Dreadnought nor Batterskull. Once cheated into play those are immediate threats. This is a +1/+0 equip that HAS TO CONNECT WITH AN OPPONENT via a creature in an age where Even Control plays 10+ creatures! And Even then it's just a creature that can Even Be handled via karakas!

So your Claim that SFM -> Elbrus MUST Be answered immediatly is plain wrong

Kring

01-20-2012, 11:54 AM

Tammit67

01-20-2012, 12:15 PM

If we think p dreadnaught was a 2 card combo, and was played like hell in legacy, some time ago - this will see play. It is worse than batterskull but as a 1 of, its another win condition in stoneblade in my opinion. Invisible stalker is a growing trend in legacy - this only helps that.

The format has changed a lot since dreadnought was viable. Between snapcaster and punishing fire, putting all your eggs into one creature basket is terrible right now. Doubly so for an artifact creature that gets bounced/ negated by lands seeing play (karakas, maze).

Maverick and stoneblade are doing well because there isn't any one creature you can kill and suddenly have great board position. This equipment does the opposite.

Gheizen64

01-20-2012, 12:17 PM

Would have to agree. The best (imo) gifts ungiven are the ones where it doesn't really matter what your opponent gives you in the end. eg. Life from the Loam, Academy Ruins, Mindslaver and Crucible of worlds. Intuition is the same usually where it's 3 different cards like that or they are all the same like Show and Tell. And Intuition is one mana cheaper for roughly the same effect, 1 less card in your hand but 1 turn sooner.

Yeah that new Equipment, Elbrus, i don't know. I laugh at when cards are spoiled people jump and scream to have cards banned. The equipped dude has to connect and gets a +1/+0 bonus. Sure the effect is awesome but A good sword or Jitte is devastating. Jitte to me is still more annoying to deal with, especially in a format with so many smaller toughness creatures around. I'm sure people will try it, but i still like Jitte, Batterskull and the various Swords more. As mentioned before, if you connect twice with any of the other equipment in legacy you are probably winning anyway.

Who asked for cards to be banned? I just said that there were precedent (mirrodin block for tinker for ex) and this could have been one.

And it isn't, card is horrible if u look at it. Need to connect twice and need to be cheated into play. SoFaI wins u the game if you connect twice and can played easily, not to say it protect the creature you attached it to.

Wilkin

01-20-2012, 12:28 PM

Who asked for cards to be banned? I just said that there were precedent (mirrodin block for tinker for ex) and this could have been one.

And it isn't, card is horrible if u look at it. Need to connect twice and need to be cheated into play. SoFaI wins u the game if you connect twice and can played easily, not to say it protect the creature you attached it to.

I don't mean anyone in particular but it seems some people have a knee jerk reaction to cards. A better example than Elbrus is Grafdigger's Cage. On other boards people are clamoring for it to be banned. Its a good hate card, especially in Vintage and sure it hits Dredge and Reanimator pretty hard but it's not like they haven't seen cheap hate before....

I've played Reanimator and I'm going to have to change the board (had null rods and Pithing Needles) accordingly. And some dredge decks had Nature's Claim anyway.

I agree about Elbrus. Jitte, swords and Batterskull are better. And Elbrus isn't really that good against 2 of the decks you'd probably see in legacy, maverick and blue/white Stoneforge. Both pack Swords to plowshares and Karakas.

TsumiBand

01-20-2012, 12:34 PM

SFM and Binding Blade is cute, but that's it.

Batterskull works because it is actually castable, and can save itself from getting dicked by anything not named Krosan Grip by bouncing back to your hand. Being able to play it using SFM is less clutch than being able to *find it* with SFM. Also Batterskull is already a Batterskull when it comes into play. Binding Blade is just a Shuko when it hits.

This demon thing will never ever be as important as Batterskull in Legacy. Maybe EDH for lulz, but not really for anything Legacy worthy.

makochman

01-20-2012, 12:59 PM

You haven't Read my previous statement did you? This isn't Dreadnought nor Batterskull. Once cheated into play those are immediate threats. This is a +1/+0 equip that HAS TO CONNECT WITH AN OPPONENT via a creature in an age where Even Control plays 10+ creatures! And Even then it's just a creature that can Even Be handled via karakas!

So your Claim that SFM -> Elbrus MUST Be answered immediatly is plain wrong

In turn, I hope you did read the high-risk, high-reward part of my post.

Unless they answer it or keep chump blocking, they'll face a 13/13, which admittedly is not hard to kill if you're packing white. Point is, it's a big threat that demands an answer fast, it's cheap in terms of mana and deck space, and kills slightly faster than Batterskull. If you're playing some kind of D&T/GW shell, it shouldn't be too hard to resolve the 13/13 and protect it with Mother. The worst that can happen is that they kill it. Big deal! It's not much different than if they Vindicated your Batterskull.

I don't think it can shake up the format, or see a lot of play for that matter, but just because of the power/cost ratio, it's an option. Like that Junk deck with Dark Depths from Cincinnati and Seattle that won games because what it did was so unexpected. If it's a card, which we don't know yet.

wcm8

01-20-2012, 01:21 PM

It it had shroud/hexproof, maybe this card would be under real consideration. But as is, it is far too fragile/clunky in comparison to other SFM targets.

DragoFireheart

01-20-2012, 01:24 PM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=386069

Elbrus, The Binding Blade 7
Legendary Artifact - Equipment (M)
Equipped creature gets +1/+0.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, transform Elbrus, the Binding Blade.
Equip 1
////////
Withengar Unbound

Legendary Creature - Demon
Flying, trample, intimidate
Whenever a player loses the game, put thirteen +1/+1 counters on Withengar Unbound.
13/13

Thoughts?

Aggro_zombies

01-20-2012, 01:27 PM

Thoughts?
Seems bad.

1) The chances of you casting this in Legacy are slim to none. You will need Stoneforge to survive. Compare to Batterskull, which is also hard to cast, but five is a lot more reasonable than seven.

2) You need another creature to connect. Compare to Batterskull, which makes its own creature.

3) You need your demon to survive and likely swing twice.

EDIT: Upon scrolling up, it seems the card has already been dismissed. Well, there ya go.

DragoFireheart

01-20-2012, 01:30 PM

It might see some fringe play. At worst, it will just encourage people to gun for the SFM more than ever.

phonics

01-20-2012, 01:38 PM

The thing with this equipment is that it is one furn slower than batterskull and requires a equip. But it does have a low eq cost so it could be playable, like stalker cleaver in limited.

brianw712

01-20-2012, 01:45 PM

I could see Elbrus being played in Deadguy Ale. Equip to Bitterblossom token, protect with discard/Mother of Runes...but then again maybe the Swords are just better there.

Rizso

01-20-2012, 01:50 PM

7 mana is just to much even with stoneforge. What batterskull had going was that it is quite often played for its normal mana cost but at 7 thats alot harder. And stoneforge is already one of thoes creatures that gets instagibed pretty quick.

TsumiBand

01-20-2012, 02:11 PM

I could see Elbrus being played in Deadguy Ale. Equip to Bitterblossom token, protect with discard/Mother of Runes...but then again maybe the Swords are just better there.

I think Bob will put a penis in your butthole from time to time if you try this, but if it gets played anywhere it'll be here. However I think that the differences between SFM and, say, Tinker are expressed in a big way when we look at this 7-cmc Equipment card. 2U for instant win condition, vs 1W and 1W for something that is conditionally more powerful than Shuko.

Considering that there will be multiple points of failure the more sneaky one tries to get with a card like Elbrus - Aether Vial, evasive creatures, guys with hexproof and flying/unblockable/etc - it's just more trouble than it's worth, and a Batterskull is still just more resilient and more reliable.

Infinitium

01-20-2012, 02:39 PM

If you're swinging with an unblocked equipped creature you're already winning irrespective of the actual Equipment used. It isn't good enough for constructed formats, especially considering it's largely uncastable sans stoneforge.

TheCramp

01-20-2012, 04:06 PM

Geralf's Messenger BBB
Creature - Zombie
Geralf's Messenger enters the battlefield tapped.
When Geralf's Messenger enters the battlefield, target opponent loses 2 life.
Undying
3/2

Pretty good for a zombie deck?

You know what Messenger reminds me of? Spiritmonger. Sick ass boss monster. Fits in zero decks. The one deck, that doesn't exist, that would rock him is some black stax deck. That (fake) deck, like everything else, doesn't hit :b::b::b: either. Braids is easier to cast, and she's a Smokestacks with haste. He is totally crazy in any deck that has 3 or more Black Sun's Zenith however... Maybe a build around.

Aggro_zombies

01-20-2012, 04:20 PM

You know what Messenger reminds me of? Spiritmonger. Sick ass boss monster. Fits in zero decks. The one deck, that doesn't exist, that would rock him is some black stax deck. That (fake) deck, like everything else, doesn't hit :b::b::b: either. Braids is easier to cast, and she's a Smokestacks with haste. He is totally crazy in any deck that has 3 or more Black Sun's Zenith however... Maybe a build around.
Just to note, BSZ does not allow extra undeaths. The creature goes to the graveyard with both types of counters still on it and will not come back.

rufus

01-20-2012, 04:32 PM

Just to note, BSZ does not allow extra undeaths. The creature goes to the graveyard with both types of counters still on it and will not come back.

BSZ counters will cancel with +1/+1 ones, so as long as BSZ doesn't kill the critter, it should.

Koby

01-20-2012, 04:38 PM

BSZ counters will cancel with +1/+1 ones, so as long as BSZ doesn't kill the critter, it should.

Correct, +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other. Since lethal damage conditions are only checked prior after the spell completely resolves, the creature will not have any +1/+1 counters on it anymore, then die.

However, Undying might have some special rules involved to cover this scenario. Wait until the FAQ is released, we'll find out for sure.

Aggro_zombies

01-20-2012, 04:41 PM

According to the mechanics preview (http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/darkascension/mechanics#1):

There's a twist, though: If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it gets enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it dies before the two counters have the chance to cancel out. For example, if your Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it got three -1/-1 counters from Skinrender's "enters the battlefield" ability, the Geist would die with one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters and wouldn't return to the battlefield.

So no, it won't come back.

TsumiBand

01-20-2012, 04:43 PM

Correct, +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other. Since lethal damage conditions are only checked prior after the spell completely resolves, the creature will not have any +1/+1 counters on it anymore, then die.

However, Undying might have some special rules involved to cover this scenario. Wait until the FAQ is released, we'll find out for sure.

I was under the impression that counter annihiliation was a SBE. At least in the case of Black Sun's Zenith, the +1/+1 counter will cease to exist the moment its toughness is seen to be zero or less, so it ought to work. Other spells depending on their effect may differ?

Koby

01-20-2012, 05:18 PM

According to the mechanics preview (http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/darkascension/mechanics#1):

So no, it won't come back.

Good catch. I stand corrected.

rufus

01-20-2012, 05:38 PM

I was under the impression that counter annihiliation was a SBE. At least in the case of Black Sun's Zenith, the +1/+1 counter will cease to exist the moment its toughness is seen to be zero or less, so it ought to work. Other spells depending on their effect may differ?

All the SBE's happen at once. So the counters cancel and the critter goes to the GY at the same time. That means the critter had the counter when it went to the GY.

TsumiBand

01-20-2012, 06:08 PM

All the SBE's happen at once. So the counters cancel and the critter goes to the GY at the same time. That means the critter had the counter when it went to the GY.

Yeah I just saw the above post. That's weird. Oh well, there's still bad combos like ah... undying and Hex Parasite I guess, or Undying and Sage of Fables? :(

Aggro_zombies

01-20-2012, 06:11 PM

Yeah I just saw the above post. That's weird. Oh well, there's still bad combos like ah... undying and Hex Parasite I guess, or Undying and Sage of Fables? :(
Yeah, undying has far fewer ways to be abused. I guess that's the tradeoff: persist gives you a weaker dude but in exchange it's comboriffic, while undying gives you a stronger dude but the mechanic itself is boring.

Barook

01-21-2012, 02:46 AM

A card that can somehow combine Geralf's Messenger with Devoted Druid's activated ability doesn't exist yet, or does it?

alderon666

01-21-2012, 08:00 AM

You know what Messenger reminds me of? Spiritmonger. Sick ass boss monster. Fits in zero decks. The one deck, that doesn't exist, that would rock him is some black stax deck. That (fake) deck, like everything else, doesn't hit :b::b::b: either. Braids is easier to cast, and she's a Smokestacks with haste. He is totally crazy in any deck that has 3 or more Black Sun's Zenith however... Maybe a build around.

Never gonna happen, but wouldn't it be cool:
Turn 1 Dark Ritual into Messenger (2)
Turn 2 swing (5), Smallpox (6), Messenger comes back (8)

LOL :eek:

Cire

01-21-2012, 12:15 PM

Never gonna happen, but wouldn't it be cool:
Turn 1 Dark Ritual into Messenger (2)
Turn 2 swing (5), Smallpox (6), Messenger comes back (8)

LOL :eek:

The deck that I posted slightly earlier can and does do that occasionally (also silly things with Scarscale Ritual) . A more common play that occurred was

Turn 1: Swamp: Thoughtseize
Turn 2: Swamp: Cabal Therapy + Dismember
Turn 3: Swamp: Messenger (2) + FB Cabal Therapy (Messenger (4))
Turn 4: Scarscale Ritual: Swamp + Small Pox (+ Messenger 7)

So by turn 4 the opponent lost 7 life, had 1 creature dismembered, was cabal therapied twice, thoughtseized, discarded another card, sacced a land, and sacced a creature. By opponents turn 4 he should have used/have 10 cards... in this scenario he lost 7-8 of those cards - if he was laying down lands every turn then that would be all he has left. In turn you have a 4/3 out, 3 lands and one card in hand that is probably another discard or creature card and your opponent in top deck mode.

Not bad, eh?

swoop

01-21-2012, 01:00 PM

Viable in Aluren :cool:

Heresy

01-21-2012, 01:54 PM

UB Zombie lord :

Diregraf Captain 1ub Uncommon
2/2
Deathtouch

Other Zombie creatures you control get +1/+1.

Whenever another Zombie you control dies, target player loses 1 life.

nedleeds

01-21-2012, 02:00 PM

nedleeds

01-21-2012, 02:04 PM

Never gonna happen, but wouldn't it be cool:
Turn 1 Dark Ritual into Messenger (2)
Turn 2 swing (5), Smallpox (6), Messenger comes back (8)

LOL :eek:

Swords. Go. Thanks for Mind Rotting.

TsumiBand

01-21-2012, 03:22 PM

UB Zombie lord :

Diregraf Captain 1ub Uncommon
2/2
Deathtouch

Other Zombie creatures you control get +1/+1.

Whenever another Zombie you control dies, target player loses 1 life.

It's a little bit Disciple of the Vault-ish, except it doesn't combo with every permanent in the deck (and IIRC nobody runs that card anymore (or that deck...?))

Eh.

I do like the Lord cycle for being uncommon, sort of like "Here little kid, you wanted some Lords right? Lords are *cool*. Have some Lords, the big kids probably won't want them."

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2012, 03:30 PM

It's a little bit Disciple of the Vault-ish, except it doesn't combo with every permanent in the deck (and IIRC nobody runs that card anymore (or that deck...?))

Eh.

I do like the Lord cycle for being uncommon, sort of like "Here little kid, you wanted some Lords right? Lords are *cool*. Have some Lords, the big kids probably won't want them."
He's not exactly their best lord, either. He's worse than Death Baron for sure, is probably worse than Cemetery Reaper, might be better than Lord of the Undead, and is obviously better than Zombie Master. But I'm not sure I'd want to run twelve three-drop lords in my deck, especially when one is off-color.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-21-2012, 08:30 PM

I mean the only lord I would think about running in a zombie deck, really, is Undead Warchief, which combined with sixteen one mana two power guys and Dark Rituals might be not terrible.

Merfolk was kind of a meta anomaly that also hinged around them having a 3cc lord for 2cc with the best landwalk ability, combined with free counters. The tribal-lord strategy is still pretty terrible generally; the other good combo decks rely on much more powerful synergies, and even then aren't really good enough to get above Tier 2 atm (and Merfolk itself is obviously pretty weak too.)

Barook

01-21-2012, 08:44 PM

I mean the only lord I would think about running in a zombie deck, really, is Undead Warchief, which combined with sixteen one mana two power guys and Dark Rituals might be not terrible.
Death Baron might actually be sexy in this kind of setup due to giving your throw-away swarm deathtouch, forcing unfavorable trades or damage through.

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2012, 09:13 PM

Death Baron might actually be sexy in this kind of setup due to giving your throw-away swarm deathtouch, forcing unfavorable trades or damage through.
Agreed. Drawing a Diregraf Ghoul in the midgame versus a Tarmogoyf and a Knight has got to feel terrible. Death Baron lets your shitty 2/x for B guys remain relevant in combat long after they have any right to.

joven

01-21-2012, 11:19 PM

... sixteen one mana two power guys and Dark Rituals ...

As far as I know that doesn't work well. I calculate a probability of approx. 10,8 % (or actually 7,7%) for having 1 ritual and 3 onedrops in the opening hand. At best in 1 of 10 games!? Please correct me if I'm wrong! :)

John Cox

01-22-2012, 01:36 AM

As far as I know that doesn't work well. I calculate a probability of approx. 10,8 % (or actually 7,7%) for having 1 ritual and 3 onedrops in the opening hand. At best in 1 of 10 games!? Please correct me if I'm wrong! :)

Just did the math for 16 1cc zombies and 4 dark rituals,
34% chance for 2 zombies
20% for 3
6% for 4
60% total
*39.95 (for 4 dark rituals)
23.837% chance of of 2+ guys and ritual.

Edit: Yeah, starting 7 chart backs this up.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-22-2012, 03:08 AM

As far as I know that doesn't work well. I calculate a probability of approx. 10,8 % (or actually 7,7%) for having 1 ritual and 3 onedrops in the opening hand. At best in 1 of 10 games!? Please correct me if I'm wrong! :)

While a potentially strong opener, you would probably also play other spells in this deck.

Then, Dark Ritual really hasn't worked out well for non-combo decks in Legacy; the format may be too attrition based for it.

Barook

01-22-2012, 05:36 AM

As far as I know that doesn't work well. I calculate a probability of approx. 10,8 % (or actually 7,7%) for having 1 ritual and 3 onedrops in the opening hand. At best in 1 of 10 games!? Please correct me if I'm wrong! :)
You can also have other, decent openings, like zombies + discard or swinging with an equipped Jitte on T2.

Octopusman

01-22-2012, 06:18 AM

The only redeeming quality that zombies have is the potential card advantage. I feel that the graveyard isn't a very safe place at the moment. The tribe is already very anemic as it is. I think zombies have a long way to go.

I'm surprised that I'm not seeing more discussion surrounding death cloud. Seems like a very solid sweeper right now. Bring your army back easily afterward?

Barook

01-22-2012, 06:48 AM

TheCramp

01-22-2012, 09:50 AM

It's a little bit Disciple of the Vault-ish, except it doesn't combo with every permanent in the deck (and IIRC nobody runs that card anymore (or that deck...?))

Eh.

I do like the Lord cycle for being uncommon, sort of like "Here little kid, you wanted some Lords right? Lords are *cool*. Have some Lords, the big kids probably won't want them."

I don't tend to play tribal decks, Goblins excepted, and that was years ago. That said, this seems like a better lord than most to me against sweepers, but maybe that's not what people are looking for in a lord.

TsumiBand

01-22-2012, 03:00 PM

I don't tend to play tribal decks, Goblins excepted, and that was years ago. That said, this seems like a better lord than most to me against sweepers, but maybe that's not what people are looking for in a lord.

I hadn't considered the Wrath angle, I had Carrion Feeder shenanigans in mind.

Actually, that might be pretty casually awesome. I always always always see weird kids that do dumb shit like play a Wrath effect in an aggro deck and they always fucking chuckle like "Ohhh shit son, bet you didn't see that coming, WoG in a Knight deck, hurp hurp hurp." A Lord like this could actually serve to make a card like Damnation or Mutilate a great equalizer; you can hit the reset button on a questionable game-state and make target opponent lose life. Then Bidding them all back with Noxious Ghoul in the graveyard and and and...

No, it's probably still just "good enough for casual".

Which is really too bad; Undead Warchief is the second best of the Warchief series to have come out and Death Baron seems like it would just horribly fuck up an opponent's combat strategy, since deathtouch just turns every possible chump block/double block/etc into a 1-for-1. Sweet KotR, i can has trades?

Barook

01-22-2012, 04:00 PM

Since you're probably having a few Zombies in play, how about throwing in 2-3 Gempalm Polluter for some uncounterable reach? Especially with Unholy Grotto or Lord of the Undead.

I also just noticed that both work with Nameless Inversion.

Infinitium

01-22-2012, 04:36 PM

Oh hey anybody else noticed that Gravecrawler/Carrion Feeder have this real cool interaction? Too bad Z doesn't have the prerequisite 2-drops to curve out with. Still, monoblack Zombie suicide with Smallpox/Hymn/Inversion to make up for the lack of quality creatures? Sounds fun.

joven

01-22-2012, 07:24 PM

Just did the math for 16 1cc zombies and 4 dark rituals,
34% chance for 2 zombies
20% for 3
6% for 4
60% total
*39.95 (for 4 dark rituals)
23.837% chance of of 2+ guys and ritual.

Edit: Yeah, starting 7 chart backs this up.

You have to consider that you want to have at least 1 ritual, at least 1 swamp and at least 3 onedrops in your first 7 cards, all of that at the same time! It is not easy to calculate. I think, there are 10 cases to sum up each with 3 probability calculations (using hypergeometric distribution).
I don't know the result yet. :)
Of course the odds are better if 2 onedrops suffice.

Cire

01-23-2012, 12:28 AM

YES!!!

Young Wolf G
Undying
1/1

time to get to work on optimizing that BG small pox/scarscale ritual/cabal therapy deck

from Cairo

01-23-2012, 12:40 AM

Hopefully the last 1/3 comes through with some playables.

I'm seeing maybe adding a copy of Sorin to my Legacy collection for a Token version of BW Deadguy and probably a copy of the Cage for any Trinket Mage / Enlightened Tutor packages - ie Thopters. Outside those cards as 1-2 ofs I don't see anything with legitimate Legacy potential.

Aggro_zombies

01-23-2012, 12:46 AM

Wow, what a disappointing set. This even looks worse than Worldwake in terms of value cards.

morgan_coke

01-23-2012, 12:55 AM

I so wanted a werewolf deck to be at least standard playable. that is definitely not the case. :sadface:

at least they made wbg midrange playable. I mean, it's token and equipment based obviously, but still, better than we've seen in awhile for that color combo.

Shawon

01-23-2012, 12:58 AM

So close to being Hive Mind #2, but I guess WotC intentionally included 'may' to prevent that use.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/dka/arv1tktnf6_en.jpg

Mr. Safety

01-23-2012, 09:04 AM

workingdude

01-23-2012, 09:24 AM

The way I see it, a total of 3 cards are legacy playable from DA:

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Grafdigger's Cage
Faithless Looting

Did I miss any? Those would all be fringe cards, too...nothing earth-shattering like Snapcaster, Delver, and Liliana were from Innnistrad.

Here are other fringe playables starting from what I think is the most likely to be played:

Thalia will definitely see some play somewhere (I'm guessing more than Sorin).
Thoughtscour has possibilities in some decks, especially with its positive effects with your or opponent's brainstorms.
Elbrus, the Binding Blade because Stoneforge Mystic targets should never be overlooked.
Gravecrawler has decent recursion.
Lingering Souls is possible in BW token-y type decks.

kwelts

01-23-2012, 09:54 AM

bruizar

01-23-2012, 10:58 AM

I don't think Sorin is going anywhere.

Cthuloo

01-23-2012, 11:41 AM

I don't think Sorin is going anywhere.

It will see play for sure at least for the next few months, it deserves at least a shot, and I can see many BW players trying in place of (or alongside) Elspeth. I'm not sure if he will be a mainstay in the format, though.

BenBleiweiss

01-23-2012, 11:41 AM

Here are other fringe playables starting from what I think is the most likely to be played:

Thalia will definitely see some play somewhere (I'm guessing more than Sorin).
Thoughtscour has possibilities in some decks, especially with its positive effects with your or opponent's brainstorms.
Elbrus, the Binding Blade because Stoneforge Mystic targets should never be overlooked.
Gravecrawler has decent recursion.
Lingering Souls is possible in BW token-y type decks.

I also think Strangleroot Geist, Curse of Exhaustion, Havengul Lich and Midnight Guard all have an outside shot in Legacy as well.

TsumiBand

01-23-2012, 12:07 PM

Strangleroot Geist merits a try in G-heavy quick aggro. Anything fairly costed with Undying looks like a wonderful Berserk/Fling target to me.

Thalia will be played. Gravecrawler will probably be played in some ETB combo-y fashion that I can't think of.

BW Deadguy players that liked Spectral Procession will probably prefer Lingering Souls.

Curse of Exhaustion costs too much, although the price is right, but I think people will try it anyway.

Grim Backwoods is expensive, but recursive. Seems like a maybe in a deck that can recur guys like Vengevine - but if you're recurring Vengevine you prolly don't need to pay 4 to draw a card, so maybe I dunno.

Elbrus will be played and no one will care after a while. People will be weird and beg to make it their General in EDH.

Sad face at the lack of a two-color Human lord to complete the cycle.

Octopusman

01-23-2012, 01:28 PM

Drogskol Captain?

Annoying Spirit Lord Kira on Crack? Too bad it, itself, doesn't have hexproof =/

Aggro_zombies

01-23-2012, 01:36 PM

Drogskol Captain?

Annoying Spirit Lord Kira on Crack? Too bad it, itself, doesn't have hexproof =/
That's probably the only thing that keeps it from being completely fucking bonkers.

capitacom

01-23-2012, 01:53 PM

Kira/Phantasmal Image + Drogskol Captain is absolutely awesome though. If only not all awesome spirits were three drops (spectral procession, geist of saint traft).

Infinitium

01-23-2012, 02:05 PM

Saving Grasp - U
Instant

Return target creature you own to your hand.

Flashback: W

Could very well be better than Momentary Blink (as in actually playable) what with the Flash utility creatures in those colors and being easier to hold back mana for. The ability to replay Snapcaster twice for that mana investment looks obnoxious.

TsumiBand

01-23-2012, 02:08 PM

Could very well be better than Momentary Blink what with the Flash utility creatures in those colors and being easier to pay for. The ability to replay Snapcaster twice for that mana investment looks obnoxious.

At that point wouldn't you rather be running another business spell though? The rigamarole you go through to bounce him again could have just been the spell you wanted to play. vOv

Aggro_zombies

01-23-2012, 02:11 PM

Could very well be better than Momentary Blink (as in actually playable) what with the Flash utility creatures in those colors and being easier to hold back mana for. The ability to replay Snapcaster twice for that mana investment looks obnoxious.
Blink is still better because the cost to bounce and then replay a guy is probably more than two mana. Depending on the creature, Blink's flashback cost may also be more efficient, but probably not.

Barook

01-23-2012, 02:17 PM

Blink is still better because the cost to bounce and then replay a guy is probably more than two mana. Depending on the creature, Blink's flashback cost may also be more efficient, but probably not.
It works pretty well with Aether Vial, though.

from Cairo

01-23-2012, 02:19 PM

Kira/Phantasmal Image + Drogskol Captain is absolutely awesome though. If only not all awesome spirits were three drops (spectral procession, geist of saint traft).

There's actually some other decent Spirits in Esper.

Spectral Lynx
Tallowisp
Dimir Infiltrator
Phantom Nomad

Still seems lacking, but Tallowisp and the Phantom guys rocked it in "Spirit Stompy" back in Extended at one point. Gaining a Lord that makes your guys hexproof and damage proof is pretty dirty.

Barook

01-23-2012, 03:27 PM

Still seems lacking, but Tallowisp and the Phantom guys rocked it in "Spirit Stompy" back in Extended at one point. Gaining a Lord that makes your guys hexproof and damage proof is pretty dirty.
Tallowisp + Hexproof does instead sound very good with the right enchantments (like Pariah - which is a gigantic "Fuck you!" to damaged-based decks if you use Phantom guys).

Too bad there aren't enough good spirits to actually support a deck.

Gheizen64

01-23-2012, 03:35 PM

There's actually some other decent Spirits in Esper.

Spectral Lynx
Tallowisp
Dimir Infiltrator
Phantom Nomad

Still seems lacking, but Tallowisp and the Phantom guys rocked it in "Spirit Stompy" back in Extended at one point. Gaining a Lord that makes your guys hexproof and damage proof is pretty dirty.

Spectral procession and the new 2W/1B spirit token generator are the best spirit card i think. Hexproof may be pretty much wasted on them, but the anthem effect is nice to have in a token swarm deck or something.

from Cairo

01-23-2012, 03:42 PM

Tallowisp + Hexproof does instead sound very good with the right enchantments (like Pariah - which is a gigantic "Fuck you!" to damaged-based decks if you use Phantom guys).

Too bad there aren't enough good spirits to actually support a deck.

Jeeze, good call on the Pariah play.

Mr. Safety

01-23-2012, 04:15 PM

you missed Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.

Yep, I missed Thalia.

The transforming equipment seems ok...but at 7 mana hard-casted it's even further out of range than a hard-casted Batterskull. I won't discount it (I was on the 'Batterskull sucks' bandwagon for a little while, and I was dead wrong about that one) but it still seems like it would need something more than just SFM to break it open for legacy.

Aggro_zombies

01-23-2012, 04:24 PM

Yep, I missed Thalia.

The transforming equipment seems ok...but at 7 mana hard-casted it's even further out of range than a hard-casted Batterskull. I won't discount it (I was on the 'Batterskull sucks' bandwagon for a little while, and I was dead wrong about that one) but it still seems like it would need something more than just SFM to break it open for legacy.
I think it's right around Dark Depths in terms of power level and likely playability. That is, when it works the opponent becomes very dead, very fast, but it's easy to disrupt and takes a very specific deck (likely one running Invisible Stalkers). Just like Depths, I think the effort to payoff ratio is not in its favor in this format, especially considering decks with a high density of removal and Snapcasters will likely just blank it once it flips.

Infinitium

01-23-2012, 05:49 PM

joven

01-23-2012, 06:11 PM

YES!!!

Young Wolf G
Undying
1/1

time to get to work on optimizing that BG small pox/scarscale ritual/cabal therapy deck

Damn! I wished for a zombie like that or better like this:

Undying Zombie BB
Undying
Undying Zombie enters the battlefield tapped.
2/1

Sad face at the lack of a two-color Human lord to complete the cycle.

Wait for Avacyn Restored, I guess.
Maybe same for the allied-color mythic cycle and maybe even for the missing enemy-color utility lands. But who knows?

Koby

01-23-2012, 06:15 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Tolsimir Wolfblood will see a reprint in Avacyn Restored.

bowvamp

01-23-2012, 07:41 PM

Lol, with the new spirit lord a spirit list actually looks pretty beast. Especially with Tallowisp and Geist of Saint Traft... and Call to the Kindred :P. No, seriously, free creature every turn from your library is pretty sweet. Plus, it's even a better shuffle effect for brainstorm.

KobeBryan

01-23-2012, 08:07 PM

With these cards...i have a feeling that Geist will shoot up in the next month or two.

joven

01-23-2012, 11:02 PM

rufus

01-24-2012, 12:34 AM

Did anyone notice that there are now three red Fork spells?
Has anyone ever consider a Fork Burn Deck?
I find the prospect of copying a Fireblast pretty strong? 8 damage for RR or 12 damage for RRRR for a finishing move (of course you have to sac mountains for the original fireblast).
And if things take some time you can flashback the new version to make two copies (for 3RR).

Fireblast is a good thing to copy, but I think there's not much else in burn that you'd really want to fork. Though using the new one in a combo deck with Past In Flames is possibly worthwhile.

To really make Fork (and friends) worthwhile, you'll want to copy something with a cc of 2 or more...

Aggro_zombies

01-24-2012, 12:47 AM

Fireblast is a good thing to copy, but I think there's not much else in burn that you'd really want to fork. Though using the new one in a combo deck with Past In Flames is possibly worthwhile.

To really make Fork (and friends) worthwhile, you'll want to copy something with a cc of 2 or more...
Forking Price of Progress is probably lethal in a lot of matchups.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-24-2012, 03:43 AM

I'm not sure if people are serious or not. A three mana lord that gives other whatevers shroud is completely irrelevant. Any given landwalk ability would have been far preferable. What other creatures are you playing that their removal wasn't going to target your lord in the first place? The only other spirits that people have mentioned playing in such a deck that are of equal or greater mana cost are Kira and Geist for God's sake.

Anyway, Faith's Shield, Thalia, Strangleroot Geist, Grafdigger's Cage, and Grim Backwoods all seem like they could be played in certain decks/sideboards.

New Sorin and Faithless Looting seem like the only real Legacy powerhouses in the new set though.

Mr. Safety

01-24-2012, 07:43 AM

I think it's right around Dark Depths in terms of power level and likely playability. That is, when it works the opponent becomes very dead, very fast, but it's easy to disrupt and takes a very specific deck (likely one running Invisible Stalkers). Just like Depths, I think the effort to payoff ratio is not in its favor in this format, especially considering decks with a high density of removal and Snapcasters will likely just blank it once it flips.

Nice summation...I agree 100%. The equip takes tech, and then you have to evaluate if that tech is worth playing (like the Hex-Depths-style Junk decks)

majikal

01-24-2012, 10:18 AM

I know some Maverick players have been contemplating Silhana Ledgewalker to help dodge all the removal that's currently in the format. If that catches on, this new equipment may make a splash.

Ziveeman

01-24-2012, 11:42 AM

Did anyone notice that there are now three red Fork spells?
Has anyone ever consider a Fork Burn Deck?
I find the prospect of copying a Fireblast pretty strong? 8 damage for RR or 12 damage for RRRR for a finishing move (of course you have to sac mountains for the original fireblast).
And if things take some time you can flashback the new version to make two copies (for 3RR).

If you wanna deal 8 damage for RR just use Flame Rift, that way you still deal the same amount of damage but still being decent when you don't have Fireblast, or when you're in topdeck mode.

rufus

01-24-2012, 11:48 AM

Forking Price of Progress is probably lethal in a lot of matchups.

True, but you'd have to get to 4 mana - around turn 5 on average - to do that. And that does seem a little slow for burn. In fact, that seems slow for Legacy in general.

Working backwards from the assumptions that most spells you'd want to fork are 2 cc or more (or spells with alternative costs), and that you'd want to do so before turn 5 means that fork is primarily interesting in decks with acceleration, and those seem to be combo decks. (For example, Twincast has found some use in Solidarity.)

The possibility of cheating the flashback cost of Increasing Vengeance with Past In Flames means that Increasing Vengeance can be economical with most 1 cc spells, and plausibly game-breaking with higher-CC spells. After all, most instants or sorceries that you would normally play are going to be a good deal copied twice for :r::r:.

This makes me think that Increasing Vengeance does have potential in legacy.

Aggro_zombies

01-24-2012, 12:18 PM

I know some Maverick players have been contemplating Silhana Ledgewalker to help dodge all the removal that's currently in the format. If that catches on, this new equipment may make a splash.
Probably not. You hit them for two and then they Path/Swords your demon and now you have a 1/1 and a Forest/more life. Honestly, if I'm going to go to all the trouble to run a 1/1 hexproof pseudo-unblockable for two, I'd rather be connecting with SoFI or SoFF because it's guaranteed payoff regardless of what removal the opponent is holding.

bruizar

01-24-2012, 12:50 PM

Probably not. You hit them for two and then they Path/Swords your demon and now you have a 1/1 and a Forest/more life. Honestly, if I'm going to go to all the trouble to run a 1/1 hexproof pseudo-unblockable for two, I'd rather be connecting with SoFI or SoFF because it's guaranteed payoff regardless of what removal the opponent is holding.

I think that Stoneforge Mystic is not the right card for this thing. A much better card would be Goblin Welder in painter, using Faithless Looting to get rid of it, and an artifact land to get it in play, and attach it on a welder. Atleast that deck has access to spellskite to save eldrus from getting plowed. Even then, there are probably better welder targets... but still..

Aggro_zombies

01-24-2012, 01:19 PM

I think that Stoneforge Mystic is not the right card for this thing. A much better card would be Goblin Welder in painter, using Faithless Looting to get rid of it, and an artifact land to get it in play, and attach it on a welder. Atleast that deck has access to spellskite to save eldrus from getting plowed. Even then, there are probably better welder targets... but still..
Attacking with a Welder does not seem like a good - or even productive - idea. Honestly, I'd rather weld in a Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite than this equipment.

I mean, I'm pretty sure the equipment is actually just unplayable. It's more work for less payoff than Dark Depths, a two-card combo that was barely playable when it came out and has only gotten worse since.

bruizar

01-24-2012, 01:26 PM

you're right. its just... not good enough. Very flavorful, but nothing that wins tournaments.

rufus

01-24-2012, 01:27 PM

Attacking with a Welder does not seem like a good - or even productive - idea. Honestly, I'd rather weld in a Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite than this equipment....

Or Inkwell Leviathan ...

Something like Sneak Attack/Shallow Grave->Godo, Bandit Warlord is also too cute, but gives the opponent a little less time to answer.

dahcmai

01-24-2012, 01:32 PM

I don't like this new equipment. If it had Protection from white or flat out Shroud, I'd give it a shot, but it's too much trouble to get going to only have it removed easily by ten million things that are played regularly. Even Maverick, which is about as low on removal as most decks get, can handle that thing with ease. All things considered, it's not even fast enough to bother with against a storm deck. They have no removal at all (ignoring the echoing truths), and still probably wouldn't care about a win con that takes up to turn 5 to kill with in a perfect situation.

I do like Young Wolf though. That seems like a small useful item for Therapy decks. Smallpox is already half decent. It may make a splash into that scene. It's just too easy to have this as a double Therapy target though.

Gheizen64

01-24-2012, 07:28 PM

Man there are really a couple of cards i would have loved with little changes.

Black cat at B instead of 1B would have been so awesome, therapy + random discard or block + random discard, so nice. I also own a black cat on my own, i just love black cats i guess.
Forge Devil should really have had flash for EOT removal on X/1 or at least the ability to ping player to prevent him from being a completely dead T1 play. I really don't understand why red doesn't have flash creatures, i mean, it's the fucking color of lightning and explosions, and i can't have instant speed creature and GREEN gets them? The color of forest and fatties? Lol.
The instant firebolt with flashback should have had a R base mana cost, not 2R wtf.

The B lure + deathtouch spell looks semi-decent to me. With that low mana cost and low flashback, it's alluring for sure. The young wolf seems pretty sweet, G for a 1/1 that sacrifice into a 2/2, not bad. Not sure it's THAT better than the 1/1 that become a 1/1 flying spirit, but whatever. The strangleroot geist is also interesting, even if i wonder what kind of deck would want a 2/1 haste for GG. Red as usual have only overcosted shit beside lootings that is pretty good card, but just not in my tastes (where the fuck are my efficient weenies and LD?).

dahcmai

01-24-2012, 11:45 PM

Barook

01-25-2012, 10:13 AM

Black, well... got dumped on like one of those freaks hiding in the porta pottys. It doesn't have much of anything like it used to anymore. Good Job Necro, you ruined it for everyone.
Black got somewhat decent removal spells lately. Although still far away from StP tier.

I wish they printed a good, red card that makes it the king of mana disruption again without screwing up Standard. E.g. something like this:

Name :r:
Enchantment
Activated abilities of lands can't be played unless they're mana abilities.

TheDarkshineKnight

01-25-2012, 11:41 AM

I'm with you on the LD thing. Red lost a lot with that. Cmon, Stone Rain wasn't busted.

It seems as though a lot of the colors are losing things because people whine and cry and the entire aspect of the color has to change due to it.

Red lost LD and efficient creatures.

Blue lost Counterspell and anything remotely resembling a good one.

White lost it's good battle tricks.

Black, well... got dumped on like one of those freaks hiding in the porta pottys. It doesn't have much of anything like it used to anymore. Good Job Necro, you ruined it for everyone.

At least green is starting to not suck.

This is...surprisingly accurate. I mean, I'm going to be play mono-green in Standard once DKA is out. MONO-GREEN! I think the last time I even considered doing that was...never? I mean, I suppose If I had been playing back during Urza Block I would have said Urza Block, but yeah...

Something is wrong in Magicville when I want to play Mono-Green. I'm just sayin'.

Beatusnox

01-25-2012, 11:59 PM

This is...surprisingly accurate. I mean, I'm going to be play mono-green in Standard once DKA is out. MONO-GREEN! I think the last time I even considered doing that was...never? I mean, I suppose If I had been playing back during Urza Block I would have said Urza Block, but yeah...

Something is wrong in Magicville when I want to play Mono-Green. I'm just sayin'.

Mono green eldrazi was a really good deck last standard season. Did really well on the scg circut and at the state tournament level.

Aggro_zombies

01-26-2012, 12:14 AM

I'm with you on the LD thing. Red lost a lot with that. Cmon, Stone Rain wasn't busted.

It seems as though a lot of the colors are losing things because people whine and cry and the entire aspect of the color has to change due to it.

Red lost LD and efficient creatures.

Blue lost Counterspell and anything remotely resembling a good one.

White lost it's good battle tricks.

Black, well... got dumped on like one of those freaks hiding in the porta pottys. It doesn't have much of anything like it used to anymore. Good Job Necro, you ruined it for everyone.

At least green is starting to not suck.
To be fair, has black ever had anything that wasn't innately busted? If we remove the broken tutors, the broken draw engines, and Yawg's Will, black doesn't have a lot of good stuff left: just a lot of riffs on Terror, a lot of riffs on discard, and so-so guys.

bowvamp

01-26-2012, 08:12 PM

Barrook: Tsabo's Web there really isn't much of a reason to play your enchantment with this card already existant.

Also, regarding the set, no love for Call to the Kindred?

ReinVos

01-26-2012, 08:24 PM

The red enchantment stops fetchland and wasteland activations. Tsabo's Web only helps against manlands, Rishadan Port, Riptide Lab, Tower of the Magistrate, that kind of stuff.

from Cairo

01-26-2012, 09:54 PM

Also, regarding the set, no love for Call to the Kindred?

In what deck? Merfolk? Wouldn't Tidal Courier be better and also likely unplayable?

bowvamp

01-26-2012, 10:25 PM

Well a couple key differences are that:
a) Call to the Kindred puts the creature directly onto the battlefield.
b) It does that every turn, rather than once.
c) It cycles through the top five, meaning that even if it draws a blank on the first try, it will find a creature with pretty good certainty.
d) It looks at the top 5 cards, giving you a better selection.
e) If you want to be really stupid with it, put it on a changeling in a deck with fatties (I know, that's pretty stupid and it won't see play, but it's funny).

Basically, it isn't a card advantage card, it's made to put creatures straight onto the battlefield for no cost. That seems pretty nice to me.

from Cairo

01-26-2012, 10:45 PM

I'm not opposed to the card necessarily, but I'm having trouble seeing where it could see play as a 4cc Aura in Legacy.

I'm not really seeing an archetype for it. You need a decent chunk of creatures with the same creature type, probably 10-12 at least to enchant one and hope to see them in the top 5. I guess the Changling idea navigates around that, but you're running mostly awful creatures in that case. Maybe Humans, or Wizards?

Maybe UWG Humans - Gives you Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarch, Snapcaster Mage, Eternal Witness, hopefully some more broken ones at higher CC?

I feel like if one is just trying to cheat fat into play things like Natural Order, Show and Tell, even probably Defense of the Heart are easier to build around.

Roman Candle

01-26-2012, 11:35 PM

Call to Kindred could be kind of cute on one of the low-drop Eldrazi creatures, like Nest Invader. I would imagine it works with Eldrazi Spawn tokens too, but I could be wrong about that one.

I mean, this isn't playable in the least bit, but there's something somewhat adorable about an Eldrazi Spawn calling up his daddy Emrakul.

jhhdk

01-27-2012, 03:34 AM

Barrook: Tsabo's Web there really isn't much of a reason to play your enchantment with this card already existant.

Also, regarding the set, no love for Call to the Kindred?

I'll bite. Call to the Kindred would obviously be most beneficial on something with hexproof.
Gladecover scout Elf Scout - unimpressive, unimpressive.
Invisible stalker Human Rogue - unimpressive, unimpressive.
Dungrove Elder Treefolk - Cute.
Geist of saint traft Spirit Cleric - Bingo, Cute.
Drogskol Captain Spirit Soldier - Bingo, Cute.

joven

01-27-2012, 05:37 AM

I'll bite. Call to the Kindred would obviously be most beneficial on something with hexproof.
Gladecover scout Elf Scout - unimpressive, unimpressive.
Invisible stalker Human Rogue - unimpressive, unimpressive.
Dungrove Elder Treefolk - Cute.
Geist of saint traft Spirit Cleric - Bingo, Cute.
Drogskol Captain Spirit Soldier - Bingo, Cute.

You forgot allmighty Slippery Bogle! Beasts could matter, right?

rufus

01-27-2012, 06:48 AM

Mother of Runes, Order of Stars, could work OK with Call to the Kindred along with Geist of Saint Traft. Also Nomad Mythmaker is a cleric...
On the spirit side, Kira, Great Glass Spinner would have decent synergy with it.

The problem is that 4 cc is a lot to ask for in legacy. For that, it really ought to win the game for you on the next turn, and Call to the Kindred doesn't look like it will.

dahcmai

02-01-2012, 04:04 AM

This set really made me sad that Swords is in the format. Those Undying creatures would be awesome otherwise.

so other than Faithless Looting, there's really not all that much this time around. : (

rufus

02-01-2012, 03:33 PM

Malchar

02-01-2012, 04:23 PM

Seems like the 'increasing' cycle of cards leads to a functional difference between the oracle and print texts of Fork - "...Treat fork as a an exact copy of target spell..." can clearly be different than putting a copy on the stack.

That leaves me wondering whether the Master's Edition Version has the same weight as print ones as far as power level errata are concerned.

Fork doesn't have power-level errata. It has errata because it's extremely confusing and poorly worded. The original wording creates a separate copy and then tells you to use the fork card to represent that copy on the stack. The current oracle wording is the accepted interpretation of the original wording as it fits into the current rules. It's very unlikely that they would change that interpretation in the future. This is different from something like phyrexian dreadnought because with that card they actually changed how it worked because it was too powerful. With fork, they didn't really change how it worked, and even if they did, it's because whatever it used to do doesn't work in the rules anymore.

crovakiet

02-01-2012, 05:48 PM

Not really that excited about DKA...undying is cool, better than persist however with Swords and Path being played(Legacy), undying just seems pretty 'meh'....I wish the Strangleroot Geist was 1 colorless and 1 red mana (^_~)b

dahcmai

02-04-2012, 02:59 PM

Well, after getting my first FNM and a ton of play time in with a full set of Sorin's I can honestly say this guy only has a spot in Legacy if you make a full on tokens archetype. It's not going to slip into much of anything.

The Vampire it makes is handy, but meh. Elspeth, Knight Errant is one of my favorite cards of all time and it's just not all that comparable. Elspeth is violent compared to Sorin's slow push forward. Damage over time goes to Elspeth easily. Even taking the life difference in gaining some off the Lifelink Vamps. Elspeth will always be taken over Sorin in anything aggressive or controllish, which of course is just about everything.

Now on the other hand if you built a full token deck, he's actually pretty powerful. That Emblem ability is the saving grace. It's really, really strong. It basically says have a free Orcish Oriflamme for free that no one can get rid of. It's not too bad. I seriously doubt it's going to spawn anything new. It would take a little bit more token support.

Funny thing is even in standard, I wasn't all that impressed. He's decent, but nothing to shoot him up in price. Calling $25 overall price on him from here. He's pretty balanced.

death

02-16-2012, 12:15 AM

I have a different take regarding this. Elspeth should be taken over Sorin in any control deck that doesn't run black. In a vacuum, Elspeth would kill Sorin in a snap. With regards to their first ability however, Sorin's vampires will take it home. Minute life gain is better than nothing at all.

In an aggro deck, there is no reason to take Sorin over Elspeth since her second ability trumps Sorin's +1/0, still an exception to this would be token decks that run black. In a controllish build, I would take in Sorin over Elspeth because 1) he ultimates one turn ahead which is just infinitely better in terms of this game 2) casting planeswalkers with an active Sorin on the table would be problematic for an opponent if he doesn't deal with him first, because of this 3) inevitability not limited to creatures only, Sorin would take lead in breaking of standoffs