Dark Ascension in Legacy

[(nameless one)]

Alright, a lot of cards are spoiled today from the mothership.

There's already theorycrafting involved with Faithless Looting (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126059&d=1321954388). Possibly the card Goblin Welder and Gamble is waiting for to break out?

What caught my eye in today's spoiler was Gravecrawler (http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/arcana/jckk9n8v2m_en.jpg). Maybe Zombies will be the new Merfolk? I have a feeling it's going to be an addition to Almost-Manaless Dredge decks.

Any hidden gems you guys see?

[Cire]

Strangleroot Geist gg
Creature - Spirit Uncommon
Haste
Undying (When this creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it.)
2/1

Not great not bad. Undying is an interesting reverse of Persist.

[Lemnear]

Gravecrawler has a spot in eternal dredge decks, that's pretty obvious. Netter than bloodghast? Doubt.

I wished for a Long time that a mechanic awards low life to turn games or award suicide strategies; and here it is! Hopefully WotC forgot that Dark Confidant, Necropotence, Y. Bargain, Ad Nauseam and Death Wish exists and print some goodies for eternal combo decks.

Cabal Ritual with fateful Hour mechanic? Anyone?

[boneclub24]

Gravecrawler makes me want to try Suicide Black again.

[Greenpoe]

Chalice of Life//Chalice of Death (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127027&d=1326085525) may be good in Ascension. It's like The Rack but for lifegain.dec. Might be too slow for the lifegain part, but the lifeloss part gets around Humility/Moat/Jace bounce/creature removal/Ensnaring Bridge shenanigans.

[Climax]

I guess with four 2-power-one-drops it is quite possible to make a Zombie based Suicide Black.

[pcccp]

Gravecrawler got my attention. A quick look at other zombie creatures that work well revealed:

- Carrion Feeder
- Nantuko Husk / Phyrexian Ghoul
- Fleshbag Marauder

Cabal Therapy loves Gravecrawler as well as Strangleroot Geist.

T1 Cabal Therapy,
T2 play Geist, sac for Therapy, attack for 3

[Skeggi]

Sarcomancy?

[trivial_matters]

Wizards needs to print a Bitterblossom that puts flying 1/1 Zombie tokens into play instead of Faeries.

Flying Zombie tokens.

[rufus]

Not great not bad. Undying is an interesting reverse of Persist.

You want to field Sage of Fables and Ashnod's Altar with it?
:wink:


Cabal Ritual with fateful Hour mechanic? Anyone?
Alas, they shuffled the color pie, and nerfed fast mana: It would have to be redder, and weaker.


A quick look at other zombie creatures that work well revealed:
More possibilities: Zombie Infestation,Bridge from Below, Putrid Raptor ,Shambling Shell

[Aggro_zombies]

Gravecrawler has a spot in eternal dredge decks, that's pretty obvious. Netter than bloodghast? Doubt.

I wished for a Long time that a mechanic awards low life to turn games or award suicide strategies; and here it is! Hopefully WotC forgot that Dark Confidant, Necropotence, Y. Bargain, Ad Nauseam and Death Wish exists and print some goodies for eternal combo decks.

Cabal Ritual with fateful Hour mechanic? Anyone?
The flavor of Fateful Hour makes me think it's the human mechanic, so it's likely concentrated in white and green. I doubt we'll see anything Legacy-playable from it.

[boneclub24]

Cabal Therapy loves Gravecrawler

I'm imagining a situation that goes like this:

Turn 1: Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Grave Crawler, Cabal Therapy, Flashback Cabal.

Turn 2: Zombie, recast Grave Crawler

A man can dream.

[ReAnimator]

I'm totally going to build a Gravecrawler / Goblin Bombardment deck. I don't care if it's going to be awful and fragile to GY hate, it will be all sorts of fun.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Undying could be pretty exciting. Too bad it's not likely to come with a useful ability in addition to a palatable cost (e.g. Kitchen Finks).

[Barook]

Gravecrawler also looks pretty neat with Phyrexian Altar to create an infinite loop.

Question is how to abuse it best, considering the combo would most likely suck very much.

[Kich867]

Gravecrawler also looks pretty neat with Phyrexian Altar to create an infinite loop.

Question is how to abuse it best, considering the combo would most likely suck very much.

Easy peasy. In fact, thank you for pointing that out, I've been wanting to make a deck based around this card forever and I just might because it's an interesting concept.

Bitter Ordeal Unlike other milling strategies, Phyrexian Alter + Gravecrawler + Bitter Ordeal exiles their library in one turn given you have 3 mana available.

It's not a particularly amazing combo, but it works.

[majikal]

Gravecrawler makes me want to play this:

4x Gravecrawler
4x Carrion Feeder
4x Stromgald Crusader
4x Fleshbag Marauder
4x Lord of the Undead
2x Cemetery Reaper
2x Death Baron

4x Sarcomancy

4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize

4x Wasteland
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14x Swamp

[TsumiBand]

Any Gravecrawler combo you might be considering is going to require another Zombie to be in play, so it's basically already a 3-card combo.

Fateful Hour looks flavorful but ultimately bad, if it doesn't offer a way to subsist on 5 life and genuinely turn the game around. Undying however looks bloody great, a real one-up to Persist.

[Lemnear]

The flavor of Fateful Hour makes me think it's the human mechanic, so it's likely concentrated in white and green. I doubt we'll see anything Legacy-playable from it.

You are right. I overlooked that the keywords are pretty focused on their tribe. If that's the case it would be a complete waste for a universal keyword to Be only GW because the other tribes have pretty creature exclusive keywords.

@rufus:
I know that they stripped black from LD, tutors, mana acceleration and the "Life for profit"-Philosophy leaving the whole color only filled with creature removal and expensive drawback demons which is the reason for being the worst color in magic since years.

I just wanted to mention that "fateful hour" could fill some gaps in attrition battles and give Players a Comeback in One mechanic which is exciting because it feels like treshhold but more Natural to achieve. Due to the Nature of black this mechanic feels very synergetic with a lot of black strategies which desperately need a boost through all formats.

As mentioned above this personal words this seems to Be Part of the GW human tribe which is complete bullshit imo to print such a mechanic in the colors of Protection and lifegain. It's like printing a "green-only" mechanic that awards not having creatures.

[rufus]

It's not a particularly amazing combo, but it works.
It requires 4 cards: the altar, a zombie in play, the gravecrawler, and the wincard.
It's got similar issues, but Glimpse of Nature would also be a fun effect there...


Gravecrawler makes me want to play this:

I want discard zombie...something like:

4x Gravecrawler
4x BloodGhast
4x Rotting Rats
4x Sarcomancy
4x Diregraf Ghoul

4x Zombie Infestation

4x Smallpox
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Blackmail
4x Mind Swords

[Aggro_zombies]

It requires 4 cards: the altar, a zombie in play, the gravecrawler, and the wincard.
It's got similar issues, but Glimpse of Nature would also be a fun effect there...



I want discard zombie...something like:

4x Gravecrawler
4x BloodGhast
4x Rotting Rats
4x Sarcomancy
4x Diregraf Ghoul

4x Zombie Infestation

4x Smallpox
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Blackmail
4x Mind Swords
Mind Swords exiles the cards.

[dahcmai]

Increasing Confusion makes me want to dig up cards like Songs of the Damned and Haunting Misery. Weak, but interesting ground. Flashback can always be abused with graveyard shenanigans.


Strangleroot Geist screams break me. I can't think of it off the top of my head, but there's a few cards out there that remove counters each and every turn if you want for bonuses. I have to go digging through my EDH decks now to find them. Hex Parasite alone makes it worth playing in standard.


If these fateful hour cards turn out to actually be powerful it might be interesting to use things like Second Chance again.

[I am the brainwasher]

I really like the fact that this mechanic is released with phyrexian mana beeing part of T2.
This could be a very interesting Standard season... .

[Aggro_zombies]

Strangleroot Geist screams break me. I can't think of it off the top of my head, but there's a few cards out there that remove counters each and every turn if you want for bonuses. I have to go digging through my EDH decks now to find them. Hex Parasite alone makes it worth playing in standard.
Geist + Ashnod's Altar + Sage of Fables. There are others but this seems like the best for EDH to me.

EDIT: Ghave seems good, too.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

One of the first things that I thought was interesting to note is that Gravecrawler says that it can be cast from the grave, and one thing that had immediately popped into my mind was to find a way to abuse it with Vengevine. The problem I've been having is finding a good consistent way of putting them into the grave.

The base of the deck I've come up with so far would be something like:

4x Gravecrawler
4x Vengevine
4x Carrion Feeder
4x Putrid Imp

4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below

Other possible cards/engines to include:
Sarcomancy
Madness creatures
Dredge

Any input on my idea, or any other ideas involving Gravecrawler and Vengevine are welcome.

[UnderwaterGuy]

I'm not trying to put your idea down or be negative but it seems like Dredge might just accomplish the same thing your deck does but better.

[rnightingale]

Hex Parasite might be a good combo for the Undying ability in DKA. :)

[RJM]

@rufus:
I know that they stripped black from LD, tutors, mana acceleration and the "Life for profit"-Philosophy leaving the whole color only filled with creature removal and expensive drawback demons which is the reason for being the worst color in magic since years.


I just wanted to quote this because it's so depressingly true...

[(nameless one)]

One of the first things that I thought was interesting to note is that Gravecrawler says that it can be cast from the grave, and one thing that had immediately popped into my mind was to find a way to abuse it with Vengevine. The problem I've been having is finding a good consistent way of putting them into the grave.

The base of the deck I've come up with so far would be something like:

4x Gravecrawler
4x Vengevine
4x Carrion Feeder
4x Putrid Imp

4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below

Other possible cards/engines to include:
Sarcomancy
Madness creatures
Dredge

Any input on my idea, or any other ideas involving Gravecrawler and Vengevine are welcome.

What about Buried Alive and Fauna Shaman?

Also Haakon, Stromgald Scourge with Gravewalker?

[rufus]

Any input on my idea, or any other ideas involving Gravecrawler and Vengevine are welcome.

Life From the Loam
and
Mutavault or Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
is a dredgetastic way to get zombies on the field with otherwise solid cards.

Shambling Shell isn't quite as good as a fit though it dredges and is a zombie, since it really wants a discard outlet like Putrid Imp or Zombie Infestation to shine.

Regarding straight combos...
Buried Alive->Fatestitcher (BTW there's a number of interesting unearth zombies),Vengevine,Gravecrawler would still require an inexpensive creature card in hand. Double Vengevine + Crawler would be better, though you'll need another zombie to make it work.

Intuition could work but really wants a discard outlet of some kind.

[dahcmai]

Biggest problem is the existing graveyard strategies are pretty damned good already. Trying to top Dredge or even Ooze combo will be rough with just a straight creature that doesn't fly out of no where to win the game like those decks do.

[SpikeyMikey]

Am I the only one that likes the red 4 drop? I mean, even flipped, a 5/5 for 4 isn't hugely impressive, but I think it does a better job of being Taurean Mauler than Mauler does for Dragon Stompy. Enough to make the deck good? I don't know. But landing an early one definitely puts an opponent on the back foot.

[TsumiBand]

Any input on my idea, or any other ideas involving Gravecrawler and Vengevine are welcome.

Madness shell. B/G

4 Putrid Imp
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Gravecrawler
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Vengevine

40 other things that are cheap and good. vOv

[(nameless one)]

Madness shell. B/G

4 Putrid Imp
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Gravecrawler
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Vengevine

40 other things that are cheap and good. vOv

Outside of Putrid Imp, you have no way to trigger Gravecrawler. With that list, you're better off with Bloodghasts.

[thecrav]

Flying Zombies

You've caused so many nightmares.

[Heresy]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127117&stc=1&d=1326222659

[Aggro_zombies]

<Ghoultree picture>
What about it? Card is bad.

[KobeBryan]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127117&stc=1&d=1326222659

When would you ever have 7 creature cards in the GY (except dredge)...that means you are doing something wrong in the game.

[Richard Cheese]

Although it is a Zombie Treefolk, which makes it kind of awesome.

[TsumiBand]

Outside of Putrid Imp, you have no way to trigger Gravecrawler. With that list, you're better off with Bloodghasts.

I realized that when I was posting but alas I was at work. Carrion Feeder for sure in multiples of 4.

Then again, I suggested Madness and then shrugged and walked away, so wtfever.

[Malchar]

Even if you consider the maximum acceptable mana cost of 2G, it would still require 5 creatures, which is pretty impossible outside of dredge. Since there's no way to get it in hand while dredging, and it's not even black, dredge has no use for this.

[Heresy]

What about it? Card is bad.

It's just a zombie treefolk slingin' a flail with skulls. That's badass.

[rufus]

When would you ever have 7 creature cards in the GY (except dredge)...that means you are doing something wrong in the game.

Seems like elves and Fluctuator could also get there.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

I realize that my idea is probably going to be nothing more than something I'd bring to the kitchen table. It would be nice to seem something come of it though.

There are two main reasons why I'm wanting to try this out:

1. Because of the possible interactions I saw with Gravecrawler and Vengevine.
2. I wasn't playing during the period when Survival of the Fittest was still legal due to lack of money and because of school. I have looked at lists for Survival decks with Vengevine before and while I find the strategy to be rather overpowered, I still find myself a little bit fascinated by it and wanting to try and utilize Vengevine in the same fashion post-Survival.

What about Buried Alive and Fauna Shaman?

Also Haakon, Stromgald Scourge with Gravewalker?
I had initially dismissed Buried Alive and Fauna Shaman, but they are looking like the most consistent route for getting what I need into the grave.

As for Haakon, I had overlooked him, and will definitely give him a go.

Life From the Loam
and
Mutavault or Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
is a dredgetastic way to get zombies on the field with otherwise solid cards.

I'll give these a try as well. Also, Life from the Loam with Zombie Infestation seems like they could promising. When I get around to it I'll also try out some of the unearth zombies, with the most likely ones being Viscera Dragger and Dregscape Zombie.

A big thanks to those who gave me any input towards the deck. Keep the ideas coming guys.

[workingdude]

Sorin (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/stf/177) seems ridic.

As a B/W pet deck enthusiast. I'm excited for some more power.

4 CC is in Legacy range
3 Loyalty is nice from a bolt range
Defends himself, pumps B/W creatures which are usually more utility than power.

[Aggro_zombies]

What plays him, though? Elspeth seems better in most BW decks.

[workingdude]

What plays him, though? Elspeth seems better in most BW decks.

I see him as a good way to put a clock on your opponent.

This may be naive, but paired in builds with mother of runes, your opponent will need to amass several (nonevasive) creatures to touch him, and if they dont touch him by the 3rd turn, the army that your opponent amassed is yours.

Elspeth can make tokens too, but her first ability is outclassed by sorin's and in racing situations, B/W typically loses even with the jump. Sorin allows for a better control touch to BW decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

Four mana seems too much for most BW decks. Like you said, they're mostly utility dorks and disruption, and I don't think Sorin does enough to justify running a four-drop in a deck that probably only wants 18-20 lands.

I mean, Sorin's best ability is the emblem-maker since it actually pressures the opponent. But it takes a bunch of creatures to be relevant, whereas Elspeth's +3/+3 and flying buff still clocks the opponent well regardless of how many attackers you've got.

The vampire tokens are fine, I guess. There's little difference between them and generic Soldiers until you've got multiple +1/+0 emblems because a flying 1/x is not much of a clock and the lifelink is irrelevant unless you've got a bunch of them. The emblem effect is nice but you need a lot of guys getting through for it to be relevant, and BW tends to be all small utility dorks. The ultimate is sweet, but like most planeswalkers, I don't think you should be judging his Constructed-worthiness by it.

Lilianna of the Veil is probably better in BW anyway.

[workingdude]

Four mana seems too much for most BW decks. Like you said, they're mostly utility dorks and disruption, and I don't think Sorin does enough to justify running a four-drop in a deck that probably only wants 18-20 lands.

I mean, Sorin's best ability is the emblem-maker since it actually pressures the opponent. But it takes a bunch of creatures to be relevant, whereas Elspeth's +3/+3 and flying buff still clocks the opponent well regardless of how many attackers you've got.

The vampire tokens are fine, I guess. There's little difference between them and generic Soldiers until you've got multiple +1/+0 emblems because a flying 1/x is not much of a clock and the lifelink is irrelevant unless you've got a bunch of them. The emblem effect is nice but you need a lot of guys getting through for it to be relevant, and BW tends to be all small utility dorks. The ultimate is sweet, but like most planeswalkers, I don't think you should be judging his Constructed-worthiness by it.

Lilianna of the Veil is probably better in BW anyway.

Your skepticism will only be enhanced when I tell you that the vampires unfortunately cant fly.

[Aggro_zombies]

Your skepticism will only be enhanced when I tell you that the vampires unfortunately cant fly.
You mean he's just plain worse than Bitterblossom, an already marginal card? Yeah, this guy's not seeing play in this format.

[conboy31]

I am pretty sure he will replace Elspeth and possibly Garruk (Relentless) in Nic Fit decks. the BW is easier to cast than WW and the lifelink is relevant as evidenced by the deck running at least a kitchen finks and ooze. My guess is 2 Lilliana, 2 Sorin for Gb/w lists.

[morgan_coke]

I think the card Sorin most closely compares to is Ajani Goldmane. And he is a pretty massive upgrade there. Unlike Ajani, who had two pretty crap abilities surrounding a semi-useful to extremely powerful middle trick, Sorin has three solid abilities. And his mass pump is much more useful because it affects every creature on your side for the rest of the game, whether they're on the field now or not.

I expect Sorin to be extremely strong in Standard and Modern.

Legacy... I'm not so sure. Lifelink tokens that are pumpable is strong, and so is his ultimate. He's better against zoo than Elspeth. He presents a real problem for someone planning to win exclusively with Jace, since he can farm out blockers/attackers until he gets to "steal jace" power level. Sorin also interacts very nicely with manlands and repeatable creatuers like Bloodghast.

I think a U/B/w deck that doesn't want to commit to WW just for Elspeth as a backup to Jace would really like this. Otherwise.. maybe, but he probably sits around with Ajani Vengeant in the "almost good enough"/"corner case solution" box.

[Meekrab]

If you have time to cast a 4 mana planeswalker and then create a 1/1 lifelink token shouldn't you just win the game? 0_o

[Aggro_zombies]

Legacy... I'm not so sure. Lifelink tokens that are pumpable is strong, and so is his ultimate. He's better against zoo than Elspeth. He presents a real problem for someone planning to win exclusively with Jace, since he can farm out blockers/attackers until he gets to "steal jace" power level. Sorin also interacts very nicely with manlands and repeatable creatuers like Bloodghast.

I think a U/B/w deck that doesn't want to commit to WW just for Elspeth as a backup to Jace would really like this. Otherwise.. maybe, but he probably sits around with Ajani Vengeant in the "almost good enough"/"corner case solution" box.
I would say this is true if Liliana of the Veil didn't exist. The fact that she does and is probably better against all the decks that don't run Jace (and there are actually a lot right now) puts her over the edge.

The thing is, Sorin's token creation is probably worse than Bitterblossom because the latter gets started earlier and makes evasive tokens. Evasion is infinitely better than lifelink in a format where creature combat is defined by a bunch of very large and/or well-protected ground dudes mashing into each other.

Sorin's emblem is worse than Elspeth's jump. It's better if you are attacking with a swarm of creatures, but clogged boards and/or larger dudes on your opponent's side negate it. Elspeth, on the other hand, lets you keep blockers up much better and can conveniently get guys over a ground stall, and she works just as well with one dude as she does with five.

As for the ultimate: yeah, Sorin's is better, but I wonder how much of an upside that is. Even Stoneblade can use removal + Snapcasters to clear a way for Batterskull against Sorin, and you're in Vindicate colors, so I don't think Jace is that much of an issue. Also keep in mind that, if they can counter Vindicate, they can counter your planeswalker. I would rather have red for Ajani V because Armageddon is sweet against control and the Helix ability can nix random Stoneforges before they start vialing in Batterskulls.

[Cthuloo]

If you have time to cast a 4 mana planeswalker and then create a 1/1 lifelink token shouldn't you just win the game? 0_o

Consider the variations:


If you have time to cast a 4 mana planeswalker and then create a 1/1 token shouldn't you just win the game? 0_o
If you have time to cast a 4 mana planeswalker and then fateseal your opponent shouldn't you just win the game? 0_o


They're called Elspeth and Jace, and see quite a bit of play in this format.

[Meekrab]

How often does a resolved Jace lose?

How often does a four mana 1/1 lifelink lose?

[Rizso]

If you have time to cast a 4 mana planeswalker and then create a 1/1 lifelink token shouldn't you just win the game? 0_o


Not really the format is quite slow but spells are so powerful that game may be already so far away its just a matter of turns before the game is over. Spells like Knight of the Reliquary, Elspeth or Jace. They might not have killed you yet but you are starring down alot of trouble.

Sorin does fit the BW decks token plan with Bitterblossom and Elspeth. Its that Anthem the deck cant afford to play as well as a token generator that makes the drawback of lossing life from your Confidants and Bitterblossom less relivant.

[Nihil Credo]

Something worth noting is that Sorin's ultimate arrives a turn earlier than Elspeth's and it is much, much more powerful, very close to an auto-win if the opponent had anything worth stealing.

On a stabilised board, he and Elspeth would play in completely different ways: with Elspeth you'd keep a few chump blockers and ride the Angelic Blessings to victory, only VERY occasionally going for the ultimate; with Sorin, you'll only make Oriflammes if you expect him to die soon (or if you have a spare), but usually you'll want to shoot for the "fuck you and die" ultimate.

Sorin:
+++ Ridiculously powerful and cheaper ultimate
++ Easier to cast
+ 2nd ability sticks around, wins you Goyf fights for the rest of the game, can synergise with tokens if you play any (BB, Decree of Justice, etc.)
+ Tokens have lifelink

Elspeth:
+++ 2nd ability is +1 instead of -2 and is much faster at winning over a stalled board
++ 4 starting loyalty

On balance, I think Sorin is going to be generally better than Elspeth for black/white decks, and some white decks may even want to splash black just for him.

[Gheizen64]

Yeah to me it seems just better than Elspeth in BW, easier casting cost and better abilities in my opinion. Problem is it's BW.

[Gheizen64]

Yeah to me it seems just better than Elspeth in BW, easier casting cost and better abilities in my opinion. Problem is it's BW.

[Skeggi]

Sorin will be good in every format except Vintage.

[lordofthepit]

Something worth noting is that Sorin's ultimate arrives a turn earlier than Elspeth's and it is much, much more powerful, very close to an auto-win if the opponent had anything worth stealing.

On a stabilised board, he and Elspeth would play in completely different ways: with Elspeth you'd keep a few chump blockers and ride the Angelic Blessings to victory, only VERY occasionally going for the ultimate; with Sorin, you'll only make Oriflammes if you expect him to die soon (or if you have a spare), but usually you'll want to shoot for the "fuck you and die" ultimate.

Sorin:
+++ Ridiculously powerful and cheaper ultimate
++ Easier to cast
+ 2nd ability sticks around, wins you Goyf fights for the rest of the game, can synergise with tokens if you play any (BB, Decree of Justice, etc.)
+ Tokens have lifelink

Elspeth:
+++ 2nd ability is +1 instead of -2 and is much faster at winning over a stalled board
++ 4 starting loyalty

On balance, I think Sorin is going to be generally better than Elspeth for black/white decks, and some white decks may even want to splash black just for him.

If Sorin were 2WW, it would probably be better than Elspeth in most control shells that want to play board control (U/W Landstill). It would probably also be better in Deadguy, regardless of the easier casting cost, since they play a lot of small utility creatures and/or tokens that benefit from the emblem.

However, Elspeth also sees a lot of play in Maverick, Big Zoo, Rock, and Bant in which the Angelic Blessing ability is actually the most powerful since the ability to end the game with a flying Knight of the Reliquary is amazing. Even if Sorin cost 2WW, those decks would much rather have Elspeth (and it's not close IMO).

U/W Stoneblade probably lies in the middle somewhere. It can operate both in "board control mode" but can also go aggro when there is a stalemate on the ground.

That being said, of all the decks that currently run Elspeth, only few can support Sorin's actual black mana requirement (and the Rock would probably prefer Elspeth anyway, which leaves you with just Deadguy). Esperblade wanted another planeswalker, it would probably use Sorin since the emblem is more useful and it can really use the life gain; Team America with white instead of green probably wouldn't want a planeswalker (other than an occasional Jace), but it would probably prefer the more aggressive Elspeth over Sorin if it came down to it.

And of course, there exists a wide spectrum of board control decks which are individually rare, but which encompass enough decks that you'll probably see them occasionally, against which Sorin is underwhelming. I'm talking stuff like Lands, Enchantress, Quinn, etc (maybe Pox and Nic Fit too). In these cases, the lifegain ability that the Vampires have over Soldier tokens don't affect the board; Sorin's second ability is weaker than Elspeth's Angelic Blessing because it's slower; and Sorin's ultimate ability is much weaker than Elspeth's indestructability since they don't have worthwhile creatures/planeswalkers to steal but rather gain control by destroying permanents.

I'm predicting far less play than Jace or Elspeth, slightly less play than Liliana, but significantly more play than Tezzeret or Ajani Vengeant.

[Mr. Safety]

Sorin is fucking badass. I hope he doesn't get too much playtime in standard or legacy so I can buy him cheaper. He should be called 'Sorin, Lord of The Kitchen Table'.

[kiblast]

Sorin is very good. He will see play, in deadguy for example. He provides a lifelink dork to attach your sword to. Lifelink in a deck packing Thoughtseizes, fetchlands and possibly some number of Dark Confidants and Bitterblossoms is very good.

He could also be maindeck-able in UWB Landstill if you play it in very aggro metas, just for -6 effect.
Edit: In Landstill UWB if you play some number of Decree of Justice (Nihil Credo made me think about it) he is amazing!

[Cthuloo]

How often does a resolved Jace lose?

How often does a four mana 1/1 lifelink lose?

I think you're attacking a straw man here. Sorin is not a four mana 1/1 lifelink, as Jace is not a four mana fateseal and Elspeth is not a four mana Benalish Hero without banding.

[death]

http://darkascensionspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/dka-sorin-lord-of-innistrad.jpg

Wizards page is taking forever, here's the card. I think he's more comparable to Liliana of the Veil than Elspeth, although Liliana is 3cc. This guy has the same loyalty and +/- values as Liliana and both can deal directly with opponent's creatures. Having him in 2WB is not a problem since you can use Scrublands and get to play Swords/Vindicate as a bonus. I don't think this guy would be better in mono-black Pox, or with Liliana, since you'd want to kill-steal creatures and win with style, not bury them in the graveyard. Unless you want to finish the game with 1/1 dorks?

[Fossil4182]

If Sorin were 2WW, it would probably be better than Elspeth in most control shells that want to play board control (U/W Landstill). It would probably also be better in Deadguy, regardless of the easier casting cost, since they play a lot of small utility creatures and/or tokens that benefit from the emblem.

However, Elspeth also sees a lot of play in Maverick, Big Zoo, Rock, and Bant in which the Angelic Blessing ability is actually the most powerful since the ability to end the game with a flying Knight of the Reliquary is amazing. Even if Sorin cost 2WW, those decks would much rather have Elspeth (and it's not close IMO).

U/W Stoneblade probably lies in the middle somewhere. It can operate both in "board control mode" but can also go aggro when there is a stalemate on the ground.

That being said, of all the decks that currently run Elspeth, only few can support Sorin's actual black mana requirement (and the Rock would probably prefer Elspeth anyway, which leaves you with just Deadguy). Esperblade wanted another planeswalker, it would probably use Sorin since the emblem is more useful and it can really use the life gain; Team America with white instead of green probably wouldn't want a planeswalker (other than an occasional Jace), but it would probably prefer the more aggressive Elspeth over Sorin if it came down to it.

And of course, there exists a wide spectrum of board control decks which are individually rare, but which encompass enough decks that you'll probably see them occasionally, against which Sorin is underwhelming. I'm talking stuff like Lands, Enchantress, Quinn, etc (maybe Pox and Nic Fit too). In these cases, the lifegain ability that the Vampires have over Soldier tokens don't affect the board; Sorin's second ability is weaker than Elspeth's Angelic Blessing because it's slower; and Sorin's ultimate ability is much weaker than Elspeth's indestructability since they don't have worthwhile creatures/planeswalkers to steal but rather gain control by destroying permanents.

I'm predicting far less play than Jace or Elspeth, slightly less play than Liliana, but significantly more play than Tezzeret or Ajani Vengeant.

I think that analysis is about where I'm at when I see this card. The lifelink tokens are somewhat helpful against Zoo. However, against Zoo that line of play is slow, doesn't gain you a lot of life, and only slows down your opponent from winning the game as opposed to pushing you closer to winning. Despite the +1 attack emblem, Elspeth seems to have greater offensive capacity since the attacks are almost always quicker and evasive with her. I would have to game out some situations, but intuitively, leaving the board stalled and then jumping creatures with Elspeth seems like a better way to win a standoff than pumping creatures with a +1 bonus. She also beats Sorin heads up since she can kill him with flying Solider tokens before he can ultimate.

Sorin is probably situationally better depending on board state, but its less useful overall. He probably has a better ultimate ability, but assuming you don't cheat him into play, it won't be active until turn eight at the earliest (by that point it is likely been disrupted).

Regarding his loyalty, something else to consider is that the two Planeswalkers that have seen frequent play (Jace and Elspeth) have been able to go to five loyalty the turn they come into play. Four loyalty is possibly too low for Legacy; I don't have data to support this claim. Intuitively, it makes sense since there are other powerful Planeswalkers (Agent of Bolas, Ajani) both of which have seem marginal play at best.

PS: The real easy way to solve this is to play Storm :-)

[trivial_matters]

The -2 ability is quite underwhelming. Even if it counts for the rest of the game.

[makochman]

Something worth noting is that Sorin's ultimate arrives a turn earlier than Elspeth's and it is much, much more powerful, very close to an auto-win if the opponent had anything worth stealing.


If your opponent had creatures worth stealing they would've killed Sorin. While he does protect himself slightly better than Elspeth, he's also much slower at actually killing your opponent, unless you already have 4 or more creatures out.

By the way, on eBay people seem to be preordering playsets for $200. It's unbelievable to me what people will do when they see a new planeswalker.

[luckme10]

Sorin will see play for Legacy in decks already utilizing black and white, such as Deadguy Ale. It's one of those decks that always seems to be underestimated and off the radar, while occasionally posting strong results. We have a local player here who seems to elude my sideboard quite well with a variant of Deadguy. I imagine he's celebrating this release. So there's that... Yet on the other hand, I don't really foresee people brewing three color splashes just to add him. Black and White has so many functional overlapping of mechanisms that I wouldn't want to further dilute my mana base for their redundancies. My greater skepticism aside, I guess it is possible Sorin's printing could propel the reemergence of that long fabled popular Fish Esper deck, as it always seems on the horizon. I wouldn't be too surprised to see him someday on that inevitable list.

Regardless of what deck he'll be played in, I sure hate this card conceptually. When Tarmogoyf printing phased out the Jackel Pups and Werebears from Legacy competition, he didn't do anything fancy because he was just stronger than them. But Sorin's worse. New Sorin is an abomination that salvages Elspeth's severed head and feet and Ajani's torso, stealing the skills that once made all the white recently printed planeswalker's unique: Elspeth 1.0's ability to create a weenie army, Ajani Goldmane's ability to add lord effects, and Elspeth 2.0's sweeper. These blatant recycling of white planeswalker abilities for a cost effective body galvanize an unprecedented haste in power creep. Really, I haven't been this disgusted by the game designers since Blightsteel Colossus was spoiled. Ultimately building new planeswalkers out of older ones saves Wizard's the trouble of creativity, but it does so at discontent from owners of the previous planeswalkers; Many of whom had rather recently purchased something they priorly considered playable and unique.

Wizards just should start making planeswalkers with blank abilities, then charge people to upgrade those abilities by swapping slides in and out below the card's illustrations. Saves them all the trouble of having to repackage stale goods.

[apistat_commander]

Regardless of what deck he'll be played in, I sure hate this card conceptually. When Tarmogoyf printing phased out the Jackel Pups and Werebears from Legacy competition, he didn't do anything fancy. He was just stronger than them. The new Sorin is an abomination comprised of Elspeth's salvaged head and feet and Ajani's torso, stealing the skills that once made all the white recently printed planeswalker's unique: Elspeth 1.0's ability to create a weenie army, Ajani Goldmane's ability to add lord effects, and Elspeth 2.0's sweeper. These blatant recycling of white planeswalker abilities for a cost effective body galvanize an unprecedented haste in power creep. Really, I haven't been this disgusted by the game designers since Blightsteel Colossus was spoiled. Ultimately building new planeswalkers out of older ones saves Wizard's the trouble of creativity, but it does so at discontent from owners of previous planeswalker; Many of whom had rather recently purchased something they priorly considered playable and unique.

I think your analysis is pretty far off base here. What JTMS clearly demonstrated was that the power level of planeswalkers is pretty easy to mess up. If you tip the scales just the slightest bit in the wrong direction you can easily centralize a format around a single, expensive card. It makes sense that WotC is playing it safe by creating new planeswalkers that closely mimic older ones, they don't want to break Standard/Modern in half.

Also, "power creep" is the reason that Magic is still a widely played game. People need new and exciting things as an impetus to buy new product. The whole thing is a bit distasteful, but the predictable cycle is what keeps people playing the game for years on end.

[dahcmai]

Well, he's obviously playable in Standard of course. He's a bomb there. Protecting himself with blockers is Elspeth territory and she was decent because of that in Standard. Modern will use him also since token decks are starting to be decent there.

The emblem thing is kind of nice. It lasts longer than he does so I like him based on that. Win's goyf wars, makes token strategies fairly decent. Be interesting to see if a token strategy can come out of this one.

I do like how his ultimate can deal with opposing planeswalkers. That's a serious bonus.

I'd play it in Legacy, but I am going to want a deck that has a token supplier past Sorin himself. Bitterblossom and maybe even Spectral Processions with Windswepts. I can see it working to a point, though it's going to end up being yet another cool deck that can stomp on the aggro strategies and lose straight up to combo as usual. The colors it's in might give it somewhat of a chance though with Ethersworn Canonist and Thoughtseize being in those two colors. Therapy is there too and it would be a token thing after all.


Totally agreed on the Ebay overpricing as usual though. He's good, but not that good. Seems like a solid $30 one though.

[Aggro_zombies]

Sorin will see play for Legacy in decks already utilizing black and white, such as Deadguy Ale. It's one of those decks that always seems to be underestimated and off the radar, while occasionally posting strong results. We have a local player here who seems to elude my sideboard quite well with a variant of Deadguy. I imagine he's celebrating this release. So there's that... Yet on the other hand, I don't really foresee people brewing three color splashes just to add him. Black and White has so many functional overlapping of mechanisms that I wouldn't want to further dilute my mana base for their redundancies. My greater skepticism aside, I guess it is possible Sorin's printing could propel the reemergence of that long fabled popular Fish Esper deck, as it always seems on the horizon. I wouldn't be too surprised to see him someday on that inevitable list.

Regardless of what deck he'll be played in, I sure hate this card conceptually. When Tarmogoyf printing phased out the Jackel Pups and Werebears from Legacy competition, he didn't do anything fancy because he was just stronger than them. But Sorin's worse. New Sorin is an abomination that salvages Elspeth's severed head and feet and Ajani's torso, stealing the skills that once made all the white recently printed planeswalker's unique: Elspeth 1.0's ability to create a weenie army, Ajani Goldmane's ability to add lord effects, and Elspeth 2.0's sweeper. These blatant recycling of white planeswalker abilities for a cost effective body galvanize an unprecedented haste in power creep. Really, I haven't been this disgusted by the game designers since Blightsteel Colossus was spoiled. Ultimately building new planeswalkers out of older ones saves Wizard's the trouble of creativity, but it does so at discontent from owners of the previous planeswalkers; Many of whom had rather recently purchased something they priorly considered playable and unique.

Wizards just should start making planeswalkers with blank abilities, then charge people to upgrade those abilities by swapping slides in and out below the card's illustrations. Saves them all the trouble of having to repackage stale goods.
Sorin and Elspeth play very differently despite having superficially similar abilities.

For starters, Elspeth is better for the "Fish Esper" deck, and any other deck based around mostly small utility creatures. Your guys are pathetic; they will almost always lose in ground combat and the +1/+0 is really only relevant when you're trying to swarm. I don't know about you, but trying to swarm with my Tidehollow Scullers and Dark Confidants and Snapcaster Mages just does not seem very good. Plus, if I'm on the small utility dorks plan, my list is going to start with 4 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull; Elspeth is better there, too, because a 4/5 flying Stoneforge or a 7/7 flying Batterskull are both far better than a 2/2 and 5/4, respectively (even if the bonus is permanent).

Furthermore, most of the creatures played in Legacy are big, dorky groundpounders. Sending your 3/1 Dark Confidant or 3/2 Tidehollow Sculler into a 6/6 Knight is just not what you want to be doing. However, sending a 5/4 flying Bob over the Knight is an excellent plan. The are few playable evasive creatures in the format right now: Spellstutter, Clique, and some marginal cards like Bitterblossom or Scryb Ranger. That means your flying guys have an excellent chance of getting through, a huge boon for a deck likely relying on small dorks that can't put up much of a clock. And, even if you're playing green and therefore have access to Knights and Goyfs of your own, wouldn't you rather send them flying and have them connect? Sure, your Goyfs may always win the Goyf wars (barring Sword of Feast and Famine or Mom), but it seems like avoiding Goyf wars entirely is a better plan.

Against control, I guess Sorin is better than Elspeth. There's no real difference in that matchup between a 1/1 lifelink and a vanilla 1/1, but the nature of Sorin's emblem makes the Swords-Path-Snapcaster Unlimited Removal package less of a blowout against you. His ultimate is also more relevant because the aforementioned one-for-ones exile, and few of the decks that pass for control these days run that many actual, honest-to-god sweepers like Deed or Wrath. Granted, they also run few creatures, but I guess it's not entirely embarrassing to murder and then resurrect your opponent's Stoneforge and Clique since you can find an equipment of your own and Duress them.

On balance, though, I think Elspeth is better, and by a wide margin. Even in the decks where you can play both, Elspeth just seems a lot better, and I would want to start with her and then add Sorins on top if I felt like I needed them. BW tokens may be playable, but I really don't think so; most of the token-makers are just not powerful enough for this format.

[Infinitium]

I actually think that Ghoultree might be a sleeper hit here; getting stuff into your own GY is pretty moot as far as drawbacks goes (as R&D are happy to prove over and over again), and anything with a cost-decreasing ability is inherently dangerous.

At the very least I can see it getting played as sweeper insurance of sorts in Elfball builds what with it surviving Firespout/Deed/EE just fine. Being more hardcastable postsweeper and less susceptible to Extirpate effects than vengevine are points in its favor as well.

Sorin I see suffering from the fact that there aren't any decks that want his specific set of abilities at 4cc, exception being Landstill without Snapcaster/Stoneforge. And Elspeth was one of the few ways Landstill could comfortably kill opposing planeswalkers. Geist looks like a shoe-in in Rock decks (similar to Kitchen Finks), uncertain which other ones might want him at the time being. Zoo could use it as a general sweeper insurance and for the mirror matchup (remember it can comfortably attack into Goyf & co with burn backup), but the double green might prove too prohibitive.

[morgan_coke]

I think one thing everyone is overlooking with Sorin is that after you've used his second ability once, he no longer makes 1/1 lifelinkers. He makes 2/1 lifelinkers, which is just huge. The difference between 1 and 2 power is probably the biggest 1 point difference in mtg, even moreso than the difference between 0 and 1.

[RogueMTG]

I think one thing everyone is overlooking with Sorin is that after you've used his second ability once, he no longer makes 1/1 lifelinkers. He makes 2/1 lifelinkers, which is just huge. The difference between 1 and 2 power is probably the biggest 1 point difference in mtg, even moreso than the difference between 0 and 1.

This, I just said that to a teammate a minute ago, haha.

[Kich867]

Does anyone else think Sorin looks remarkably like John Travolta in his new art?

[Skeggi]

Does anyone else think Sorin looks remarkably like John Travolta in his new art?
Not really.

http://www.materialbitch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Does-John-Travolta-Need-To-Lay-Off-The-Reeses-Pieces.jpg

[TsumiBand]

Does anyone else think Sorin looks remarkably like John Travolta in his new art?

Well NOW I do. :P

Sorin does seem to enable Deadguy Ale in neat ways. Spectral Procession is a pretty cool guy when eh makes 3 2/1 flyers that flashback Cabal Therapy and equip Equips. His ultimate is a gamechanger, and he mimics Elspeth's self-preservation tactic of making tokens. Not too bad.

[The Big Ragu]

I think Sorin might be a bit too slow for Deadguy Ale. Maybe someone will brew up a rogue B/W Stax deck to utilize his coolness.

[Cire]

If there is just 1 more decent undying guy Scarscale Ritual would be amazing. 2 mana draw 2 cards and one of your guys is immortal again?

So far though as a shell - a really annoying version of Eva green I would think.

Creatures
4 Strangle - Root Geist
4 Blood Ghast
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hex Parasite
1 Ooze

Other
4 GSZ
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
3 Jitte
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Go for the Throat
2 Ghastly Demise

20 Lands

[kombatkiwi]

If there is just 1 more decent undying guy Scarscale Ritual would be amazing. 2 mana draw 2 cards and one of your guys is immortal again?

So far though as a shell - a really annoying version of Eva green I would think.

Creatures
4 Strangle - Root Geist
4 Blood Ghast
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hex Parasite
1 Ooze

Other
4 GSZ
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
3 Jitte
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Go for the Throat
2 Ghastly Demise

20 Lands
This is a really cool idea and i hope they print some decent undying guys so this can work.

[Mark Sun]

We just got a Legendary Glowrider that costs 1W and has First Strike.

[luckme10]

And it's a soldier.
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8013/jum72rexljen.jpg

[Tammit67]

That is going to be highly annoying for a couple months

[conboy31]

I don't play much standard but from what I have seen 4 mana wrath = stabilize. Wrath for 5 mana is usually too late. Anddd....another hatebear for vintage. Bummer.

[GGoober]

OMG, Sorin is good (Referencing only to Landstill). His +1 gives a better Elspeth Soldier. Elspeth's pump ability is purely used on the offense i.e. when you are in a favorable board position, so Sorin's -2 is also used in that manner, in fact gaining the emblem just makes future soldiers/Mishra's (and god-forbid playing Decree of Justice again in Landstill). His -6 is much more relevant than Elspeth's +8 which barely comes up.

Obviously Sorin isn't replacing Jace's slot in Landstill, but in UWb packing decrees, this guy is one heck of a card that helps stabilize the mid-game with lifelink chumpers and can go on an offensive when you EOT cycle a surprise Decree and swing for a ton if you acquire a few emblems.

So excited!!

Also, after taking a break from Steel Stompy, Thalia is pretty solid choice in a prison-aggro deck (in the case of Steel Stompy you run Lodestone Golems as well). But I won't be testing that deck for awhile with the new Sorin O_O

[boneclub24]

Definitely liking Thalia. Might give Soldier Stompy another whirl for the heck of it.

[Koby]

Alright! Another legendary hate bear.*











* Deadpan doesn't translate well online

[troopatroop]

28 Zombies.dec

4 Carnophage
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Sarcomancy
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Death Baron
4 Cemetary Reaper

4 Snuff Out
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual

16 Swamp


Braaaaaaains! :P

[Rune]

I think Sorin's main problem is that he is a lot worse than Elspeth 1.0 when it comes to killing opposing walkers. Elspeth can jump factories and whatnot over blockers to take down a Jace. Sorin will just sit there and do almost nothing in most cases. I feel this is the real tiebreaker between them.

[Kich867]

I think Sorin's main problem is that he is a lot worse than Elspeth 1.0 when it comes to killing opposing walkers. Elspeth can jump factories and whatnot over blockers to take down a Jace. Sorin will just sit there and do almost nothing in most cases. I feel this is the real tiebreaker between.

In what way will he just sit there doing nothing? His +1 naturally leads to killing opposing planeswalkers.

I can see him being quite awesome in an Esper control shell.

[Rune]

In what way will he just sit there doing nothing? His +1 naturally leads to killing opposing planeswalkers.

I can see him being quite awesome in an Esper control shell.

His ultimate doesn't threaten an active Jace fast enough.

[Kich867]

His ultimate doesn't threaten an active Jace fast enough.

Even if you play Sorin the turn after they play Jace, you'll kill jace before he goes off. Ignoring other plays, that's what will happen every time. You can conjecture all you want about the twelve trillion different outcomes based on what decks are being played and what's on the field, but that's kind of silly to even think about. All things being equal however, Sorin hits his ultimate before Jace does.

[Skeggi]

That's a bit too narrow an argument as Jace can brainstorm quite a few times before Sorin hits his ultimate. While what you say is true, it is also moot.

[Barook]

Thalia looks good.

And First Strike gives her actual combat relevant, especially when combined with pump effects like Exalted or equipment. Something that is actually extremely rare for a hate "bear".

[GGoober]

I just really like how you can go +1, +1 -2 on Sorin to get swinging for 1+4 = 5 lifelinking damage on the 3rd turn while churning out stronger dudes the next few turns. Elspeth can swing for up to 1+4+4 = 9 on turn 3 but that's assuming you are only pumping and not churning out dudes.

They each have their own benefits but Sorin is much stronger on the defense, making chump blocking a gain with lifelink or when your dudes get big enough, you can start making favorable trades (e.g. having 2 2/1 lifelinkers is much better than 2 1/1 soldiers, and the more you use his -2, the more out of control he gets. His -6 is indeed less relevant but still fits in the defensive shell of a control deck fairly well).

But the main selling point that he's crazy with Decree of Justice, so stay tuned to the new tech coverage by SCG of Landstill in Legacy!

[Finn]

Yeah, Barook. The Death and Taxes crew is already talking about Thalia. The ability is nearly universal and pretty big combined with Wasteland, Port, and Mangara. And there is going to be a whole new level of tricks with first striking Jittes making her pretty hard to kill in combat and killing off attackers she is not even blocking before they deal their damage.

[boneclub24]

Definitely want to test the Captive in Berserk.

[Rizso]

I like how the wording is allowing it to be able to use both pump abilties on the same turn when it flips.

[lolosoon]

And here's the wolfguy :
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/405837_329682850386478_117647751589990_1084528_1556216715_n.jpg

Bitten Rootwalla anyone ?!

[allek]

Wolfbitten Captive is terrible and will never see legacyplay.
The fact that this card is hyped in standards says a lot about the low power-level of the set. That in itself isn't a bad thing, not every block can be Alara or Zendikar.

The mythic werewolf spoiled today looks awesome though, great art and clever design.

[Barook]

Wolfbitten Captive is terrible and will never see legacyplay.
This

Rootwalla is at best borderline Legacy playable now with ways to abuse the Madness mechanic. At a cost of :g:, it's terrible.

Especially with the horrendous pump cost in its transformed form which feels like a downgrade.

[Meekrab]

Especially with the horrendous pump cost in its transformed form which feels like a downgrade.
Seriously, should be +6/+6 for that much, especially considering your opponent basically decides if you ever get to use it on offense.

[joven]

I can't wait to get my hands on a playset of Gravecrawler ... but not for Legacy. I doubt it will see much play in Legacy, because it is only good in zombie decks because it needs a second zombie in play.
... But it takes my casual zombie deck to the next level! :D
Might be great with a Buried Alive fetching three Gravecrawlers to graveyard. Also nice interactions with Carrion Feeder or an Altar of Dementia. :) And nicely sticking in play to trigger my Endless Ranks. :)

And I am looking forward to zombies with the new Undying mechanic!

[Barook]

Seriously, should be +6/+6 for that much, especially considering your opponent basically decides if you ever get to use it on offense.
And the worst part is that it's a rare, despite having absolutely no quality of being one.

This should have been a common, like Basking Rootwalla.

[luckme10]

I love the flavor of that card. When the creature reverts back, I can just imagine him straightening out the bars from the damage caused to the cage and putting himself back in it... :rolleyes:

[rufus]

...
This should have been a common, like Basking Rootwalla.

IMO, it shouldn't have made it out of development. It's terrible in just about every way imaginable -- well, I guess the art isn't so bad. That said, it's mechanically boring and weak - if the buffs were permanent and single use then it might justify rare status, but it would also be a rules problem.

[Nonex]

I love the flavor of that card. When the creature reverts back, I can just imagine him straightening out the bars from the damage caused to the cage and putting himself back in it... :rolleyes:

The same who put him in the first cage can just put him in a second cage. The question to me is how a man encaged and hanging from a tree can attack or block.

That said, I can understand Wizards not wanting people to open 3-4 of these in Limited. If you play him first turn, you either start attacking for 3 if your opponent does something, or for 2 if s/he doesn't (which is still good) threatening with swings for 6 in little time. I thought Mawcor should be a trash common instead of a rare as well, but Limited is what dictates rarities on cards.

[Meekrab]

And the worst part is that it's a rare, despite having absolutely no quality of being one.

This should have been a common, like Basking Rootwalla.
I didn't even notice that the first time. Imagine being a new 10 year old magic player and ripping open a booster to find a 1/1 green creature as your rare... I don't think I'd ever buy another pack.

Also is it just me or is this transform mechanic really gimmicky and lame?

[TorpidNinja]

I love the flavor of that card. When the creature reverts back, I can just imagine him straightening out the bars from the damage caused to the cage and putting himself back in it... :rolleyes:

While the flavor might be a little off, there's plenty of good reasons to hate on this card/mechanic without making some up.

Birds of Paradise can hold Sword of Fire and Ice. See also: who cares?

[Malchar]

I guess on the turn that the Killer turns back into the Captive, you can still give it +4/+4, and potentially +2/+2 as well, making it a 7/7. The fact that you can use either ability with the transform trigger on the stack, and then still use the other ability later is probably confusing enough for new players to make it rare. Besides, it's potentially an 8/8 for 1 + 6 mana. You rarely see a common/uncommon that big, even if it's not mana efficient, like Vizzerdrix (of course, everyone hated that card as well).

[Meekrab]

Birds of Paradise can hold Sword of Fire and Ice. See also: who cares?
You never seen a toucan wielding a broadsword? Gotta get out more, mang.

[boneclub24]

I love the flavor of that card. When the creature reverts back, I can just imagine him straightening out the bars from the damage caused to the cage and putting himself back in it... :rolleyes:

He gets recaptured.

Now, what I'm wondering, is that if it didn't work the first time, why are they putting him in another cage?

[rufus]

Also is it just me or is this transform mechanic really gimmicky and lame?

Yeah. That was true the last set too - I was saddened when they spoiled a playable card with it.

[Malchar]

Yeah. That was true the last set too - I was saddened when they spoiled a playable card with it.

Yea, at least with the flip cards from kamigawa they were all terrible.

[morgan_coke]

Yea, at least with the flip cards from kamigawa they were all terrible.

Nezumi Shortfang and especially Jushi Apprentice saw a ton of Standard play. Although they both are terrible from an extended standpoint.

[TsumiBand]

I seem to recall Erayo seeing a modicum of play across formats as well.

I hate to say it but some of the transformers do seem pretty appealing. I really wanted to not like the mechanic. But some of the cards, I can't help it.

The 2/2 Vigilance guy would be randomly funny in a Cataclysm White Weenie deck. "Oh sure I guess I'll sac my Flagstones, 2/2 Vigilance guy, Doomed Traveler, and keep my Mother of Runes and Sword of Body and Mind..." casual beatstick!

But since I can't stand unsleeving cards unless I'm actually removing them from my 75 i'd need a bunch of those ugly-ass checklist cards, with a grip of the proper dude in the "token" slot of my sideboard. fml

[Trentemoller]

Rarity is not only for how special or how good a card is for constructed, it's also a major factor in drafting, which is why I like this being a rare, since it's busted in limited. It might also be playable in standard so I don't know what you guys are talking about. Sure it's not a legacy playable but really, how many legacy playable cards come out every set? 3?

[264505]

I seem to recall Erayo seeing a modicum of play across formats as well.


The Erayo affinity deck is a pretty viable option in Modern right now.

[TheCramp]

The -2 ability is quite underwhelming. Even if it counts for the rest of the game.

I agree in a vacuum. But I'm comparing him to Elspeth, and she is, as we say on the beach, "the man." I have a fondness for launching factories in the air, and Sorin losing loyalty for less power and no evasion feel gross. But he does make foundry a stone cold motherfucking clock with one activation. And as has been said, 2/1 lifelinkers will bury someone pretty quick. It might be the second Sorin that gets you.

[Rizso]

I agree in a vacuum. But I'm comparing him to Elspeth, and she is, as we say on the beach, "the man." I have a fondness for launching factories in the air, and Sorin losing loyalty for less power and no evasion feel gross. But he does make foundry a stone cold motherfucking clock with one activation. And as has been said, 2/1 lifelinkers will bury someone pretty quick. It might be the second Sorin that gets you.

That he is even comparable to Elspeth says quite alot considering Elspeth is like the 2nd best planeswalker ever printed.

The -2 ability is very powerful when you actually use it with more then just 1 creature, let say Bitterblossom. Once Sorin gets a break he increases the power of the tokens he produce. He streams the board with lifelinkers. Lifelinking leads til unraceable situations. He got alot of potencial for greatness.

[264505]

That he is even comparable to Elspeth says quite alot considering Elspeth is like the 2nd best planeswalker ever printed.

The -2 ability is very powerful when you actually use it with more then just 1 creature, let say Bitterblossom. Once Sorin gets a break he increases the power of the tokens he produce. He streams the board with lifelinkers. Lifelinking leads til unraceable situations. He got alot of potencial for greatness.

Don't forget his ultimate is pretty bonkers too.

[fizzles]

Don't forget his ultimate is pretty bonkers too.

the only ultimate that can kill another planeswalker directly as far as I know

[Aggro_zombies]

the only ultimate that can kill another planeswalker directly as far as I know
Elspeth Tiriel's can as well, IIRC. But she kills all non-token, non-land permanents.

[TkDodo]

His ultimate sounds good, when in fact, I doubt that it is. If the opponent really has 3 good creatures/planeswalkers that you want to take, or even if he has two of them, I doubt that you will be able to go ultimate with Sorin. It will take you 4 rounds. The best case scenario I can think of is the opponent having one good creature (like KotR or so), and you make 3 1/1 lifelinks, chup the creature 3 times and then take that one creature. Given that nothing else happens in these 3 rounds, that is a good result, but its hardly a game winning ultimate. Then again, neither is Elspeth's. What makes her superior in most builds is that I believe Sorin's -2 is indeed very weak, at least in comparison to Elspeth's pump ability.

[Aggro_zombies]

His ultimate sounds good, when in fact, I doubt that it is. If the opponent really has 3 good creatures/planeswalkers that you want to take, or even if he has two of them, I doubt that you will be able to go ultimate with Sorin. It will take you 4 rounds. The best case scenario I can think of is the opponent having one good creature (like KotR or so), and you make 3 1/1 lifelinks, chup the creature 3 times and then take that one creature. Given that nothing else happens in these 3 rounds, that is a good result, but its hardly a game winning ultimate. Then again, neither is Elspeth's. What makes her superior in most builds is that I believe Sorin's -2 is indeed very weak, at least in comparison to Elspeth's pump ability.
I think this is a good summary of why Sorin is weaker than Elspeth.

Like I've said before, Sorin's -2 takes a very particular set of circumstances to be better than Elspeth's Angelic Blessing ability: namely, you need to have a lot of creatures, and you need to know that they can either trade up or punch through post-emblem. On the surface, Elspeth and Sorin defend themselves equally well (advantage marginally Sorin because of lifelink), but when you have multiple non-token creatures out, Elspeth is better because she can send one through for damage (so you're still actively doing something to win) while the rest stay back and help her Soldiers keep her alive. Sorin's emblem is not really conducive to that, and the lifelink on his guys is only so-so because attacking a planeswalker naturally "gains" you life anyway.

Sorin really need to be built around, whereas Elspeth is good just about anywhere you stick her.

[Rizso]

The -2 Might need to be builded more arround but however the +1 is really strong and will carries the walker almost alone.

He is no Jace or Elspeth but who is? No one.

[SpikeyMikey]

Nobody has anything to say about Thalia, the Glowrider for 1W (1 mana cheaper than the original, but legendary)? I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty excited about that one. Of course, at this point, green and white have so many different hate bears that it's pretty tough for a new one to make the cut, but I feel like Thalia might be a tipping point for a white aggro-prison deck.

Also, while I don't see it being played in Legacy, Seance seems pretty nutty too. Reanimating something every turn? Sign me up. It's something that's probably immediately going to go in every EDH deck with white and I'm sure it will impact Standard and Modern as well.

[rufus]

Also, while I don't see it being played in Legacy, Seance seems pretty nutty too. Reanimating something every turn? Sign me up. It's something that's probably immediately going to go in every EDH deck with white and I'm sure it will impact Standard and Modern as well.

Maybe in limited or EDH. Between the exile clause and the EoT clause it's pretty close to being a conditional 4 cc creature. Stuff like Resurrection didn't see competitive play.

[wcm8]

I could see some sort of WB/x deck being built with Sorin as one of the finishers. It could have your typically array of B/W goodstuff, like Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, SFM + equipment, black discard, maybe Dark Confidant... and then Bitterblossom to take advantage of Sorin. The -2 ability is weak in a vaccuum, but combined with an early Bitterblossom it can end the game in short order. Like Rock decks of old, it could just overload the opponent on threats and card advantage.

Rough list:
21-23 lands
4 SFM
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes (maybe?)
4 Bitterblossom
4 StP
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn
2-4 1cmc discard
2-3 Equipment (perhaps Jitte, Batterkskull, and a sword of X&Y)
3 Sorin

I'm sure I'm missing some utility cards. Also maybe Night's Whisper could make an appearance as card draw. I haven't really played Deadguy Ale lately but I'm sure there are cards in those colors that could take advantage of the metagame.

The other thing nobody has seemed to really mention yet is the fact that he makes Vampires. That tribe isn't quite there yet to be Legacy viable, but if it gets a few more solid creatures/lords I could see it being a possible deck. Imagine if there were a Planeswalker that had a +1 that made a 1/1 Merefolk. I could easily see that card getting added to Merfolk lists, if only as a SB card. (or alternatively, a Planeswalker that made 1/1 Goblins... maybe too slow for that deck?)

Then again I could be totally off and perhaps the days of tribal aggro decks in Legacy are over.

[samurai_socks]

I see Sorin being most useful in some sort of Esperblade bitterblossom deck as a 1 of or in some sort of Esper Landstill as a 3rd Elspeth.

Lifelink chump blockers in Landstill fit perfectly with their plan and can also help you slow the game down while you garner control. Having 1/1 lifelinker blockers when many people are playing KOTR is very relevant. Also, once you have an Elspeth and Sorin in play then you can start gaining 4 a turn which is pretty hard to race.

I think Thalia is pretty good. The fact that she is a legend is pretty cool as you can use first strike + karakas to make sure she survives combats and then vial her back in. Or just save her from removal with Karakas.

I am still hoping that someone who is a better deck builder than I comes up with a deck using faithless looting, goblin welder and wurmcoil engine....

-Cheers-

[nedleeds]

Nobody has anything to say about Thalia, the Glowrider for 1W (1 mana cheaper than the original, but legendary)? I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty excited about that one. Of course, at this point, green and white have so many different hate bears that it's pretty tough for a new one to make the cut, but I feel like Thalia might be a tipping point for a white aggro-prison deck.


Bears that hate. Bears that bind.

I think what sets her apart is she is far more unconditional than

Gaddock Teeg
Leonin Arbiter
True Believer

or really narrow hate like

Kataki
Leonin Relic-Warder
Aven Mindcensor

She's a sphere for gods sake. A sphere you can Aether Vial in ... maybe a mana denial plan around her and Winter Orb.

She also pairs nicely with Jitte. She's obviously obscene

[TsumiBand]

Nobody has anything to say about Thalia, the Glowrider for 1W (1 mana cheaper than the original, but legendary)? I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty excited about that one. Of course, at this point, green and white have so many different hate bears that it's pretty tough for a new one to make the cut, but I feel like Thalia might be a tipping point for a white aggro-prison deck.

Also, while I don't see it being played in Legacy, Seance seems pretty nutty too. Reanimating something every turn? Sign me up. It's something that's probably immediately going to go in every EDH deck with white and I'm sure it will impact Standard and Modern as well.

I agree on Thalia. Having won games I shouldn't have done off the back of Glowrider, a better Glowrider that is easier to turn 1 with Chrome Mox and Co sounds positively fantastic. In my mind, a good White Weenie deck *should* be the quintessential aggro-prison deck; lots of dorks that make a ground assault untenable (first strike) followed by taxing the opponent's resources and then using SFM + equips or just a giant Angel to win the day.

However I think Seance is terrible, if for no other reason then it doesn't put the Spirit tokens into play with haste, and it promptly exiles them at the beginning of the next end step. So unless the things it's recurring have insane ETB abilities it will never be a White Sneak Attack, which is frowns all around.

[SpikeyMikey]

However I think Seance is terrible, if for no other reason then it doesn't put the Spirit tokens into play with haste, and it promptly exiles them at the beginning of the next end step. So unless the things it's recurring have insane ETB abilities it will never be a White Sneak Attack, which is frowns all around.

I didn't catch the lack of haste. On the other hand, you can do it on your opponent's upkeep as well. Not useful then, unless you're running some way to give creatures haste or that silly "end my turn now" artifact. In either case, you're working too hard to make a mediocre card work.

[joemauer]

Nobody has anything to say about Thalia, the Glowrider for 1W (1 mana cheaper than the original, but legendary)?

Tom Lapile's going away present.

[Aggro_zombies]

I didn't catch the lack of haste. On the other hand, you can do it on your opponent's upkeep as well. Not useful then, unless you're running some way to give creatures haste or that silly "end my turn now" artifact. In either case, you're working too hard to make a mediocre card work.
It gives you a free blocker, for what that's worth.

Also, I'm not sure that the legendary Thorn of Amethyst is better than Ethersworn Canonist against the decks where you'd want hatebears (so storm). I'm sure you can run both, but I have no idea how many Thalias you'd want and if there's enough room in sideboards for them.

[Greenpoe]

Thalia might be good with Chrome Mox instead of Vial and some other creatures that go well with Chrome Mox (Confidant, Stoneforge, Leonin Arbiter). Or he might be good in that developing deck that was based around Suppression Field. With Liliana, there's tons of Planeswalkers around nowadays, so Suppression Field might be good maindecked with some other mana denial.

[Rizso]

Vault of the Archangel
Land
t: Add 1 to your mana pool.
2BW, t: Creatures you control gain lifelink and deathtouch until end of turn.

Must say im exited about this card. Might not be a legacy card. But I can see this card win so many games without even geting activated. Just not favorble to attack or block when you opponent got this land with mana up for it. Just the threat of using it makes it crazy-

[GGoober]

Another point of note for Sorin:

He's incredible with Humility. He's great with Thopter Foundry, Decree, Humility, Bitterblossom off the top of my head. A good start would most definitely be in a control shell. Most people shrug off his -2 too easily. Elspeth's +3/+3 flying is mostly used in situations where you are going for the win (or trying to kill opposing Planeswalkers), so in some respect her jump ability is more valuable. Sorin's -2 is also an ability that goes for the win with the less-applicable scenarios of killing planeswalkers.

Overall, I am very interested in testing him as a 1-2 off in UWb Landstill, possibly running him over Elspeth in a build packing Decrees and Humility. (A rough test list is 2 Sorin, 2 Jace, 1 Elspeth)

[Aggro_zombies]

Vault of the Archangel
Land
t: Add 1 to your mana pool.
2BW, t: Creatures you control gain lifelink and deathtouch until end of turn.

Must say im exited about this card. Might not be a legacy card. But I can see this card win so many games without even geting activated. Just not favorble to attack or block when you opponent got this land with mana up for it. Just the threat of using it makes it crazy-
I saw this card and immediately groaned. There are several Ghave EDH decks around here, and this is going to make them even more annoying to play against.

[SpikeyMikey]

It gives you a free blocker, for what that's worth.

Also, I'm not sure that the legendary Thorn of Amethyst is better than Ethersworn Canonist against the decks where you'd want hatebears (so storm). I'm sure you can run both, but I have no idea how many Thalias you'd want and if there's enough room in sideboards for them.

I think it's definitely better. It's not subject to Hurkyl's Recall (which has been used against me to bounce both Canonist and Vial) and the taxing effect is as good or better than Canonist's ability since it also hampers their ability to remove it. It's unfortunate that it's legendary, as having 2 or 3 of these down would be GG vs. storm, but I think it's a potential. Some decks, like Affinity, would rather have Canonist. Some decks will rather run this in tandem with Thorn and/or Glowrider.

[.nemesis]

Also, I'm not sure that the legendary Thorn of Amethyst is better than Ethersworn Canonist against the decks where you'd want hatebears (so storm). I'm sure you can run both, but I have no idea how many Thalias you'd want and if there's enough room in sideboards for them.

As a High Tide player I can assure you that Canonist is way more annoying than a sphere effect. I can't go off with Canonist on the board while I can combo through 1 or 2 sphere effects all day long, as long as you don't put a really quick clock on me. Hint: 5 Turns (double hatebear) is not quick.

[SpikeyMikey]

As a High Tide player I can assure you that Canonist is way more annoying than a sphere effect. I can't go off with Canonist on the board while I can combo through 1 or 2 sphere effects all day long, as long as you don't put a really quick clock on me. Hint: 5 Turns (double hatebear) is not quick.

High Tide is a slightly different animal than Tendrils. Against Tendrils, either is subject to Deathmark, but they have very disruptable mana bases and turning their acceleration pieces into 0 or 1 net mana instead of 1 or 2 net mana is huge. I don't really lump High Tide into the storm category the way I would TES, ANT or SI. I mean yes, technically, you're usually storming for the win, but it's not the same strategy as other storm decks.

[Finn]

Canonist is certainly the best anti-storm hatebear we have right now, for all the different kinds of storm as an aggregate. There should be no doubt here. What makes Thalia special (and the reason the Death and Taxes players are excited about her) is the first strike. Yes, she makes Snapcaster cost one extra and she can even be Vialed in to basically Stifle the flashback. But she survives both Snapcasters and Delvers in combat, and she is going to be very hard to get rid of with the removal costing extra and both Mother of Runes and Karakas protecting her. In short, it's exactly as Flores says - she does not have to come in from the board. With her cool interaction with Mystic (and equipment), she is going in the main. That means that storm is not an auto-loss in game one anymore and it improves sideboarding options for storm to the point that it may actually be about 50/50 without having to devote a single dedicated card to it. That is a huge departure from the past. It also means that perennially amazing cards like Brainstorm, Ponder, and Green Sun's Zenith are actually a liability while casually making our Ports and Wastelands do their jobs much better. Since Canonists are pretty much relegated to the sideboard, you do not get any of these nifty effects with her.

They are apples to oranges unless it is one of those "Which is the hardest hatebear for storm to overcome?" questions in a vacuum.

[majikal]

LMAO

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/387934_10150481142907918_174376972917_8830438_817522472_n.jpg

[clavio]

http://i.imgur.com/3ZIEF.jpg

Fuck you dredge!?

edit:wtf ninjad

[majikal]

Screws over Reanimator too, as well as Snapcaster Mage. And Green Sun's Zenith (although that part is less relevant, as I can see Maverick rocking this card in the sideboard in the same way they play Gaddock Teeg).

[Aggro_zombies]

Wow, brutal. So in addition to Crypt and Relic, you can side Cage and just completely fuck Dredge and seriously hurt Reanimator. Nice.

EDIT: Missed it hosing GSZ. This card makes me lol.

[Mark Sun]

Wow @ Grafdigger's Cage. Also serves as Snapcaster hate, Green Sun's Zenith hate, Natural Order, blah, blah, blah...

[majikal]

lol I had to double-check it just to make sure it didn't shut off fetchlands. Although trying to fetch for Dryad Arbor suddenly became very awkward.

[mrjumbo03]

Fetching for Dryad Arbor too.

[majikal]

So, does this mean we can have Survival of the Fittest back?

[GradStudentGuy]

This card is a major blow to Dredge. Its an enlighten tutor target that shuts them down cold. Worse is that hurts reanimator at the same time so it will see play and dredge will get the splash hate. At least reanimator can still go the show and tell route. This thing will see 3x In a lot of sideboard the amount of decks it hurts is amazing.

[Beatusnox]

I seriously just finished building dredge =( Lol.

I guess Tom Lapille gets one more FU! at the "not magic" decks.

[thefringthing]

Cards hosed by Grafdigger's Cage: Snapcaster Mage, Green Sun's Zenith, Dread Return, Past in Flames, Ancient Grudge, Reanimate, Narcomoeba, Tinker, fetchland + Dryad Arbor, Exhume, Yawgmoth's Will, Oath of Druids, Natural Order, Cabal Therapy, Deep Analysis ...

[Namida]

Now you know someone just had hate in their heart when they designed that card. Was that necessary? I'm eagerly waiting to see how decks that it affects find a way to play around it.

[majikal]

Creature cards. not Cards. PIF and Grudge still work fine, as does Yawgmoths in most cases.
Read the second line, genius.

[clavio]

This thing basically turned vintage upside down

[Namida]

Creature cards. not Cards. PIF and Grudge still work fine, as does Yawgmoths in most cases.

Did you catch the part about not being able to cast cards out of libraries and graveyards?

[Koby]

Time to play fair decks again. :\

[Beatusnox]

Did you catch the part about not being able to cast cards out of libraries and graveyards?

Completely.

[Bignasty197]

Love it. Fuck you, Dredge and Reanimator.

[majikal]

I think this card is just as significant as Null Rod in Vintage. What I'd like to see is if it allows budget decks to perform in Legacy in a similar fashion.

[Beatusnox]

I think this card is just as significant as Null Rod in Vintage. What I'd like to see is if it allows budget decks to perform in Legacy in a similar fashion.

Except dredge is one of the cheapest decks in the format...

[majikal]

Except dredge is one of the cheapest decks in the format...
It's also ridiculously difficult to master, and I wouldn't recommend it to players who are trying to get started in the format.

What I meant was decks that may not rely as heavily on the fetch-dual manabase that may be able to compete with the more fair decks in the format but lose to things like Reanimator, Dredge, Snapcaster + removal, Natural Order, etc.

Or who knows, this card might just cause people to play more Hive Mind.

[cheerios]

What are some cards that allow casting cards directly from the library? I cant remember any

[Zand]

Green Sun's Zenith. This card is messed up, I can't believe they are going to print it...

[Shawon]

What are some cards that allow casting cards directly from the library? I cant remember any

Future Sight

[Antonius]

reanimator. finally starting to get what it deserves.

jin gitaxias
entomb
animate dead

should all still be banned though. That deck is hurting america.

[KobeBryan]

When I first read this card, I thought it would hose the hell out of reanimator and dredge decks, then after reading it, reanimator and dredge decks bring in anti hate cards anyways game 2

The current hate out there actually exiles everything out of the grave yard. This thing still keeps all the cards in there. If you find an anti hate card and get rid of this card, you still have a whole grave yard at your disposal.

[Namida]

When I first read this card, I thought it would hose the hell out of reanimator and dredge decks, then after reading it, reanimator and dredge decks bring in anti hate cards anyways game 2

The current hate out there actually exiles everything out of the grave yard. This thing still keeps all the cards in there. If you find an anti hate card and get rid of this card, you still have a whole grave yard at your disposal.

What I see when I look at this card and read your assessment is that this card is about on par with Leyline of the Void except that you don't fucking hate yourself for having a four mana enchantment that you will never cast in your sideboard.

[KobeBryan]

What I see when I look at this card and read your assessment is that this card is about on par with Leyline of the Void except that you don't fucking hate yourself for having a four mana enchantment that you will never cast in your sideboard.

Thats true, but I still don't think it will be a format warping card. It can still be hated on with the current cards reanimator and dredge plays anyways.

What's sad is that I believe people will bring this in against maverick now aside from their typical creature removals.

No more gsz builds i guess.

[majikal]

Thats true, but I still don't think it will be a format warping card. It can still be hated on with the current cards reanimator and dredge plays anyways.

What's sad is that I believe people will bring this in against maverick now aside from their typical creature removals.

No more gsz builds i guess.
I would love for people to side this against Maverick. That means they are bringing in do-nothing cards and I can turn things sideways at them.

[conboy31]

So, does this mean we can have Survival of the Fittest back?

I thought the exact same thing. I hope that is the result.

[Smmenen]

Unban Mystical Tutor too!! Reanimate is neutered by Cage.

[workingdude]

Cards hosed by Grafdigger's Cage: Snapcaster Mage, Green Sun's Zenith, Dread Return, Past in Flames, Ancient Grudge, Reanimate, Narcomoeba, Tinker, fetchland + Dryad Arbor, Exhume, Yawgmoth's Will, Oath of Druids, Natural Order, Cabal Therapy, Deep Analysis ...

Protean Hulk, Pattern of Rebirth, etc in the zenith-rebirth deck

[boneclub24]

Card is siiiiiiiick.

[Octopusman]

Posting because of the Cage, obviously.

I think some people have already pointed out that it gets answered the same way by decks affected by it.

This is where non-creature really shines. You'll have to Smash to Smithereens in UR Delver.

Still totally amazing and hates on so many strategies past, present, and future if they do anything more than just print vanilla creatures from now on. :tongue:

Very interested to be discussing this card for a very very long time. Headed to the vintage forum to see their thoughts.

Cheers.

[makochman]

A parting shot from Tom LaPille! I don't see it being all that good against Reanimator, but Dredge, well... it was nice knowing you.

[conboy31]

LaPille's local 9 man legacy event dredge player should have just let him win and congratulated him on taking home 3 prize packs.

[blaat]

Don't forget the insane combo with Cage + Boldwyr Heavyweights

[RJM]

LaPille's local 9 man legacy event dredge player should have just let him win and congratulated him on taking home 3 prize packs.

I heard he tried, but Lapille kept bringing in 4 Great Sable Stag against the dredge deck.

[Pippin]

IMO, people are overreacting here.

This card has one big thing going against it - cards stay in the graveyard. Same can't be said for other graveyard hate cards, and this is actually a huge deal.
For example, reanimator would rather play against this than Relic/Crypt - since you just need to find a cheap bounce spell and you're ready to go. It's a bit more problematic for dredge, but in the end all the dredgers stay in the yard and after a Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge hardcast one can go off.


The big plus however is that it's a universal and cheap answer to Natural Order, so I could see some decks packing Grafdigger's Cage in their sideboard since it act's as a solution to 2 different problems.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If it's a coffin, I get that it stops stuff from leaving the graveyard...

Why does it stop stuff from leaving the library though?

[conboy31]

The coffin covers the gyard and the cage covers the library? I've got nothing...

This complicates my vintage oath list.

[Stall_19]

The vintage application is the most startling. Shuts down Dredge, Oath, Yawg Will, Snapcaster, Tinker. Wow.

[Pastorofmuppets]

The vintage application is the most startling. Shuts down Dredge, Oath, Yawg Will, Snapcaster, Tinker. Wow.

I hadn't even thought of Vintage. This could be a monster, but I know it probably won't be.

[jhhdk]

Mikaeus, the unhallowed :3::b::b::b:
Legendary Creature, Zombie Cleric
Whenever a Human deals damage to you, destroy it.
Other Non-Humans you control get +1/+1 and have Undying.

[jhhdk]

Mikaeus, the unhallowed :3::b::b::b:
Legendary Creature, Zombie Cleric
Whenever a Human deals damage to you, destroy it.
Other Non-Humans you control get +1/+1 and have Undying.

Sac outlet + Persist => Stuff happens ie. Murderous Redcap infinite dmg. Kitchen Finks infinite life etc.

[dahcmai]

Lol, that Cage is seriously funny. It's actually sad in a way at the same time. What a monkey wrench to throw into everything. With Trinket Mage in Standard, it even throws off that format. Vintage, yeah I can imagine what it will do there. Shop decks are going love that.

Mikaeus, the unhallowed is cute, but a Modern only type thing. I'd play it there, but it's still 6 mana getting the EDH award. (Sucks, so it's good in EDH).

[majikal]

Mikaeus, the unhallowed is cute, but a Modern only type thing. I'd play it there, but it's still 6 mana getting the EDH award. (Sucks, so it's good in EDH).
It's actually retarded in EDH. It combos with Ghave and any non-human creature with an ability that triggers when enters or leaves the battlefield.

[Leftconsin]

I'm trying to think of decks that would be really excited to throw the cage in their board, but I'm coming up with a short list. OK, making sure I don't have Jin-Gitaxis on the other side is worth turning off my GSZ, but that still feels clunkier than Tormod's Crypt. Which is the big thing with the card, it only works while you have it. Crypt erases everything before it, and Leyline otV erases everything until it's bounced, destroyed, whatever.

[Gheizen64]

Wow this is possibly the biggest card i've ever seen for vintage after maybe CotV. Hose basically half the format, Tinker, Oath, Dredge, Will, Welder, Snapcaster and all...

Can't wait to see how that format evolve. In Legacy it isn't as relevant, but it still is a good card against Reanimator, Snapcaster, Dredge and NO. Doesn't stop SnT though.

[Shawon]

Keep in mind there is Mental Misstep in Vintage which is increasingly seeing play, so I don't think ol' Nick Cage is going to be as problematic in that format as people think.

[Grollub]

I for one like the Cage, seems like it'd shake up Vintage - which is always pleasant IMO - for Legacy it appears to be a solid and flexible card for the sideboard, which luckily is colorless, cheap and fair. No idea of it's effect on Standard and Modern tho - but Innistad seems to have a graveyard sub-theme so some sort of hate is needed, Modern is Modern and nobody cares (no offense to the guys which actually like the format, I just loathe it).

If it's a parting gift, LaPille thank you very much. You actually could when you tried!

[Gheizen64]

Keep in mind there is Mental Misstep in Vintage which is increasingly seeing play, so I don't think ol' Nick Cage is going to be as problematic in that format as people think.

I don't doubt it, but forcing people to play cards, even good ones, is the definition of "warping". Also i guess this would see play a lot in shops, where MM is basically irrelevant except for the Cage.

I expect Fish decks and derivation of White tax decks to be viable in Vintage after this set. I mean, look at this:

11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Aether Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword Of Fire And Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Student Of Warfare
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Swords to Plowshares

So sexy.

[Amon Amarth]

I predict seeing 3 Thalia on decklists quite a bit in Legacy. I could be wrong- people might play 4 instead.

[Boman]

Just to be sure.. Is Goblin Welder beign affected by the coffin?

[Gheizen64]

Just to be sure.. Is Goblin Welder beign affected by the coffin?

I think the answer is yes if you try to weld in creatures.

[TheCramp]

My first reaction to this card is seething hatred. Why print all this excellent graveyard based set, and then print ONE card that hobbles all the dynamics you probably spent a year tuning tinkering with and balancing? They say they don't print-cards/test for older formats, but what about block? Did Innistrad block really deserve a hate card this powerful? Maybe this is just good game design, where you need to get in players way to some extent. If it were all obvious then what roll would brewers play? And maybe there is some elegance in having it as an artifact that only black cannot deal with directly, being the color that is most effected, but still...

I feel this goes to far.

Because the pendulum has swung to far the other direction. Yeah, you need checks on the re-animators and the dredgers (and snapcasters and zenithers) out there, you cannot let them run amok. Good game design means getting in their way, make them work for it. Good. But the same goes for the traditionalists. I want to play creatures and swing, damn-it. OK, cool, you do that. Work for it. It goes both ways.

I am perhaps more annoyed that this is exactly the grave hate I have been looking for in life from the loam. "Hate out your graveyard, leave mine intact, permanently, sucker."

So I guess I'll pick them up. It even leaves punishing grove intact. Geeze.

[Boman]

I think the answer is yes if you try to weld in creatures.

Thank you!

[catmint]

Cage is funny ... i am curious how it is going to develop since it often not only affects your opponent but also some of your own most powerful spells. I guess a snapcaster deck rather plays hate that does not affect snapcaster. :)

Cage deals better with dredge but for control decks it is important to have answers to everything... hence those extractions might be preferred because of Loam and Punishing Fire.

What I like is that a 1 mana artifact can cause a lot headache to some unfair decks and aggro/control or control decks playing snapcaster mage. Might give some players not beeing able to afford Tier decks a better feeling about the format.

[Infinitium]

I'd rather have my GY-hate actually being able to deal with Loam/EE-Lock/Punishing Fire/KoTR/whathaveyou thank you very much. GSZ isn't strong enough by itself to warrant inclusion over the alternatives, and it isn't that much of an improvement v. dredge (as in not at all unless they brought in Ancient Grudge).

[Mr. Safety]

I think this card is more flexible than cards like Tormod's Crypt, simply for it being able to work against GSZ, Reanimator, TES/ANT w/Past in Flames, and Dredge. It covers more decks with a more permanent fashion. I think decks like zoo and merfolk will jump on this card because by the time their opponent finds an answer they will have dropped their life total down too far to matter, maybe even winning before it matters.

The way I see it is if Grafdigger's Cage buys you even ONE MORE EXTRA TURN than Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus, it's worth playing. Whether it does or not is still in question.

In all practicality, it seems that folks would be better diversifying their grave hate by using this Cage alongside other options. Cage can hit early and allows you to play a less narrow hate card than something like Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus. Both are exceptional at dealing with graveyards but don't do anything against Natural Order or Green Sun's Zenith.

Does this card open up the possibility of a Haterator-style deck in legacy?

3x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Aether Vial
4x Thalia
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Wasteland
4x Ghost Quarter

[Wilkin]

My first reaction to this card is seething hatred. Why print all this excellent graveyard based set, and then print ONE card that hobbles all the dynamics you probably spent a year tuning tinkering with and balancing? They say they don't print-cards/test for older formats, but what about block? Did Innistrad block really deserve a hate card this powerful? Maybe this is just good game design, where you need to get in players way to some extent. If it were all obvious then what roll would brewers play? And maybe there is some elegance in having it as an artifact that only black cannot deal with directly, being the color that is most effected, but still...

I feel this goes to far.

Because the pendulum has swung to far the other direction. Yeah, you need checks on the re-animators and the dredgers (and snapcasters and zenithers) out there, you cannot let them run amok. Good game design means getting in their way, make them work for it. Good. But the same goes for the traditionalists. I want to play creatures and swing, damn-it. OK, cool, you do that. Work for it. It goes both ways.

I am perhaps more annoyed that this is exactly the grave hate I have been looking for in life from the loam. "Hate out your graveyard, leave mine intact, permanently, sucker."

So I guess I'll pick them up. It even leaves punishing grove intact. Geeze.

That is interesting, Punishing Fire dodges the hate from Cage. Another thing to note, Bridge From Below isn't affected since Cage says "Creature Cards" and tokens aren't considered cards.

Pretty big hate card but shouldn't be banned yet. My example is Dredge. There's already Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void etc. out there and they have the appropriate hate for stuff like that in games 2 and 3. Stuff like Nature's Claim.

But it's definitely going to see play in all formats, although methinks some people are going to put it in against the wrong decks. Sure, it nerfs Green's Sun Zenith but Maverick has plenty of creatures it can hardcast to beat you face. Gonna maybe put one in my EDH deck for creature recursion solitaire shenanigans.

[death]

Another thing to note, Bridge From Below isn't affected since Cage says "Creature Cards" and tokens aren't considered cards.

How is this relevant, how else do you generate tokens with Bridge from Below if Ichorids/Narcomoebas can't enter the board and you can't even flashback Therapy?

[Pastorofmuppets]

I think this card is more flexible than cards like Tormod's Crypt, simply for it being able to work against GSZ, Reanimator, TES/ANT w/Past in Flames, and Dredge. It covers more decks with a more permanent fashion. I think decks like zoo and merfolk will jump on this card because by the time their opponent finds an answer they will have dropped their life total down too far to matter, maybe even winning before it matters.

The way I see it is if Grafdigger's Cage buys you even ONE MORE EXTRA TURN than Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus, it's worth playing. Whether it does or not is still in question.

In all practicality, it seems that folks would be better diversifying their grave hate by using this Cage alongside other options. Cage can hit early and allows you to play a less narrow hate card than something like Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus. Both are exceptional at dealing with graveyards but don't do anything against Natural Order or Green Sun's Zenith.

Does this card open up the possibility of a Haterator-style deck in legacy?

3x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Aether Vial
4x Thalia
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Wasteland
4x Ghost Quarter

I feel like you should splash blue. Then you could run Top and Trinket Mage, and just one cage.
Because it's kind of a dead draw against Zoo.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Aw shit. That makes Natural Order slightly harder to push through. =(

Also, I was nearly done building Dredge and Reanimator. Fuck. Can we have Misstep back?

Too bad it's already quite expensive to pre-order.



Time to play fair decks again. :\

...or Show and Tell.

[morgan_coke]

I really like this card because it lets non-blue decks interact with and fight against strategies that they used to be cold to. (ex. NO/PRO with counter backup for removal).

I don't like this card because it makes blue decks better against things they used to be cold to (ex. Dredge)

I think this and MM other cards like it keep getting printed because wotc wants to give non-blue a chance in Eternal formats, but what usually happens with the new cards is that blue just uses them and gets stronger instead. :sadface:

[Justin]

Cage will be the most sought after and played one mana artifact sideboard card since Pithing Needle. It will be a staple sb card in multiple formats.

[Finn]

I'm pretty sure they printed Cage as a hoser for the block it is in, and not part of any hidden agenda. I'm also pretty confident the card is going to end up a fringe player in exactly the same way Extirpate is.

[Barook]

Cage is an interesting card.

Though I don't want to imagine what would have happened if had blocked fetchlands, too.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

The fact that Ooze 2 is indestructible (and easily reanimated with Unearth) makes it very interesting as a potential sleeper for the format. I could see myself siding out NO to avoid hate and siding Ooze 2 in instead. The game would be slightly longer, but the Ooze has enough staying power to make it a plausible move.

'Course, that could just be wishful thinking. There's still a fair bit of StP and PtE kicking around, after all.


I am also seriously contemplating a sideboard that looks like: 4 Cage, 4 Chalice, 3 Faerie Macabre, 1-4 of whatever else (maybe Ooze 2, lol). I guess a widespread Cage will make Deed a fantastic MD choice again. Maybe Crime/Punishment will get a turn. ;)

[trivial_matters]

I'd rather have my GY-hate actually being able to deal with Loam/EE-Lock/Punishing Fire/KoTR/whathaveyou thank you very much.

Good point. People seem to be forgetting graveyard hate isn't only used against Dredge and Reanimator.

As for Cage, I don't see it being played much against Snapcaster Mage or Natural Order. Green Sun's Zenith into Scavenging Ooze or Gaddock Teeg seems better for the likes of Maverick, Bant and those versions of The Rock and Zoo running Zenith.
Natural Order isn't even seeing much action lately.

Perhaps some decks using an Enlightened Tutor package will play a singleton in the sideboard to fetch when needed, against Dredge or Reanimator.

EDIT: An interesting thing to note however is that with the Enlightened Tutor package, the earliest one can play Cage is turn two and in that case, Wheel of Sun and Moon is probably better against Dredge.

[warai]

With the cage printed maybe we could see Oath of Druids unbanned? That would be nice...

[Koby]

...or Show and Tell.

or Sneak Attack
Hypergenesis
Eureka

... Phantasmal Image has never looked so better.


I am perhaps more annoyed that this is exactly the grave hate I have been looking for in life from the loam. "Hate out your graveyard, leave mine intact, permanently, sucker."

This is a very good point. Aggro Loam has been looking for unsymmetrical hate for some number of years - this one fits the bill very nicely.

[AngryTroll]

I'm also pretty confident the card is going to end up a fringe player in exactly the same way Extirpate is.

I think this is pretty accurate. The cage is a great card, but there are a lot of excellent graveyard-hitting cards that compete for sideboard slots:
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Nihil Spellbomb
Leyline of the Void
Faerie Macabre
Extirpate
Surgical Extraction

Cage nerfs a few cards that these do not, but it's more vulnerable to removal than existing options, too. I think diversifying graveyard hate is already an excellent idea, and with that in mind, I'll probably pick up a Cage or two.

Vintage is a different story; although I don't know much about Vintage, it sounds like the splash damage to decks like Oath is significant.

[Shursh]

poor Panglacial Wurm, we'll gonna miss you much :(

[Sloshthedark]

Grafdigger's Cage - definition of UNFUN card ... universal hate, no skill required, stupid

[Mr. Safety]

I feel like you should splash blue. Then you could run Top and Trinket Mage, and just one cage.
Because it's kind of a dead draw against Zoo.
Well, Trinket Mage is kind of anti-synergistic with Leonin Arbiter. The only way Ghost Quarter is playable is with Arbiter/Mindcensor and half of that equation hurts you, too. It would by neccessity have to be light on fetchlands (and search effects in general) in order to take full advantage of the Strip Mine effect of Arbiter/GQ. Tops are a great idea, as well as Preordain as a sub for Ponder. Brainstorm loses some gas without the shuffle effect, so I'm not sure if a full set would be warrented or not. I'd probably still play 4.

The whole idea of this kind of haterator (in my own pea-sized brain anyways) would be to punish all of the search functions (Fetchlands, tutors, GSZ, Natural Order)in a crap-ton of decks as well as turning off anything graveyard based. Some good permission (Spell Snare, Stifle, Daze, Force of Will) and a handful of heavy-hitting finishers (Geist of Saint Traft, Jace the Mind Sculptor) and you have a deck that has some decent consistency while potentially hosing a large amount of the format. Thalia opens up new options, allowing cards like Spell Pierce to really shine. You have to pay more for your spells...but you'll be denying their mana with Wastes/GQ's/Stifles. I'm not sure if Vials are the way to go, but it's an option anyways.

[rufus]

Grafdigger's Cage - definition of UNFUN card ... universal hate, no skill required, stupid

It seems like pretty limited hate that only shuts down some stuff. Most decks seem to already have ways to play around it, or answer it.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is a very good point. Aggro Loam has been looking for unsymmetrical hate for some number of years - this one fits the bill very nicely.
Not really. It's always had Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, and most recently Surgical Extraction and Scavenging Ooze available to it. This card is not particularly useful as a hate card unless you combine it with something that actually exiles graveyards.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Keep in mind there is Mental Misstep in Vintage which is increasingly seeing play, so I don't think ol' Nick Cage is going to be as problematic in that format as people think.

I play PantherStax in Vintage. I bring in 7-8 cards for Dredge or I lose. As a result my deck was stone cold dead to Oath. Now I get to take out 4x Crypt and bring in 4x cards that hoses my most important sideboard matchup AND my worst matchup.

[Koby]

I play PantherStax in Vintage. I bring in 7-8 cards for Dredge or I lose. As a result my deck was stone cold dead to Oath. Now I get to take out 4x Crypt and bring in 4x cards that hoses my most important sideboard matchup AND my worst matchup.

Yep, I agree - this one is nutter butters for Workshop. Might be time to start running a heavier red splash in anticipation of Workshop mirrors.

[Sloshthedark]

It seems like pretty limited hate that only shuts down some stuff. Most decks seem to already have ways to play around it, or answer it.

its actually really good only against Dredge, Reanimator is ok with it... I mean it randomly shuts down too much stuff and "enters... from libraries" seems wrong to me "cast... in libraries" totally awkward

[Gheizen64]

Yep, I agree - this one is nutter butters for Workshop. Might be time to start running a heavier red splash in anticipation of Workshop mirrors.

Or start playing decks that have positive matchups against Workshop like fish.

[Koby]

Or start playing decks that have positive matchups against Workshop like fish.

Let's have none of that nonsense :)

[Barook]

Well, Trinket Mage is kind of anti-synergistic with Leonin Arbiter. The only way Ghost Quarter is playable is with Arbiter/Mindcensor and half of that equation hurts you, too. It would by neccessity have to be light on fetchlands (and search effects in general) in order to take full advantage of the Strip Mine effect of Arbiter/GQ. Tops are a great idea, as well as Preordain as a sub for Ponder. Brainstorm loses some gas without the shuffle effect, so I'm not sure if a full set would be warrented or not. I'd probably still play 4.

The whole idea of this kind of haterator (in my own pea-sized brain anyways) would be to punish all of the search functions (Fetchlands, tutors, GSZ, Natural Order)in a crap-ton of decks as well as turning off anything graveyard based. Some good permission (Spell Snare, Stifle, Daze, Force of Will) and a handful of heavy-hitting finishers (Geist of Saint Traft, Jace the Mind Sculptor) and you have a deck that has some decent consistency while potentially hosing a large amount of the format. Thalia opens up new options, allowing cards like Spell Pierce to really shine. You have to pay more for your spells...but you'll be denying their mana with Wastes/GQ's/Stifles. I'm not sure if Vials are the way to go, but it's an option anyways.
Spell Pierce also costs :1::u: to play under Thalia which doesn't sound too hot.

Is Leonin Arbiter really worth it to not use a SFM + equipment package?

Aside from that, Thalia goes very well with Karakas (which doubles as hate against Emrakul and other legends). Could become extremely annoying when additionally combined with Mother of Runes.

Chrome Mox certainly is worth a consideration in the deck, getting Arbiter, Mindcensor and Thalia online asap.

[Mr. Safety]

Spell Pierce also costs :1::u: to play under Thalia which doesn't sound too hot.

Is Leonin Arbiter really worth it to not use a SFM + equipment package?

Aside from that, Thalia goes very well with Karakas (which doubles as hate against Emrakul and other legends). Could become extremely annoying when additionally combined with Mother of Runes.

Chrome Mox certainly is worth a consideration in the deck, getting Arbiter, Mindcensor and Thalia online asap.

Arbiter can only be justified by playing some number of Ghost Quarters, I think. Otherwise you're just hurting yourself too much by preventing your own mana-base stabilization and avoiding SFM. It's an interesting plan, considering you can essentially have Strip Mine available.

Spell Pierce is the cheapest spell, other than Force, that causes opponents to pay extra mana. Force Spike is too weak, even working with Thalia. I'm fine with paying :1::u: for Spell Pierce...because my opponent will have to pay a full extra 3 mana (1 to announce, 2 more to actually cast it) This is basically Counterspell with an easier casting cost. You've turned Spell Pierce into Rune Snag but still have an early game counterspell before Thalia hits, should you be so unlucky. I'm not saying it's a stellar idea...it's merely interesting.

I also think that Azorious Guildmage is pretty hawt for a Thalia-based haterator deck. It provides muscle (not much, but some) and is a repeatable Stifle. The hard part is breaking the symmetry with Thalia. She naturally wants to be played in a creature-heavy deck, but even creature-heavy decks use a wide variety of other tools. Maybe artifacts with Etherium Sculptor and Lodestone Golem?

[Aggro_zombies]

Leonin Arbiter blows. Even if you go deep with him and run Stifle, Wasteland, Daze, and Spell Pierce to try to maximize your ability to punish decks that are land-light or have greedy mana, he is still pretty terrible. Your opponent can just wait and pay unless your deck has a ridiculous clock without using fetchlands (so no Knight of the Reliquary) or an equipment package (because 3W for Stoneforge is shitty). In a hatebear deck full of 2/x dorks, you're not going to be putting on that much pressure.

Plus, he costs two, just the right amount for Spell Snare.

[Barook]

I also think that Azorious Guildmage is pretty hawt for a Thalia-based haterator deck. It provides muscle (not much, but some) and is a repeatable Stifle. The hard part is breaking the symmetry with Thalia. She naturally wants to be played in a creature-heavy deck, but even creature-heavy decks use a wide variety of other tools. Maybe artifacts with Etherium Sculptor and Lodestone Golem?
Azorius Guildmage blows. Her abilities are too expensive to be really effective in Legacy.

Why not simply sticking Thalia into Death & Taxes? She fits the shell with some mana denial nicely.

[funyun45]

I could see some sort of WB/x deck being built with Sorin as one of the finishers. It could have your typically array of B/W goodstuff, like Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, SFM + equipment, black discard, maybe Dark Confidant... and then Bitterblossom to take advantage of Sorin. The -2 ability is weak in a vaccuum, but combined with an early Bitterblossom it can end the game in short order. Like Rock decks of old, it could just overload the opponent on threats and card advantage.

Rough list:
21-23 lands
4 SFM
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes (maybe?)
4 Bitterblossom
4 StP
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn
2-4 1cmc discard
2-3 Equipment (perhaps Jitte, Batterkskull, and a sword of X&Y)
3 Sorin

I'm sure I'm missing some utility cards. Also maybe Night's Whisper could make an appearance as card draw. I haven't really played Deadguy Ale lately but I'm sure there are cards in those colors that could take advantage of the metagame.

The other thing nobody has seemed to really mention yet is the fact that he makes Vampires. That tribe isn't quite there yet to be Legacy viable, but if it gets a few more solid creatures/lords I could see it being a possible deck. Imagine if there were a Planeswalker that had a +1 that made a 1/1 Merefolk. I could easily see that card getting added to Merfolk lists, if only as a SB card. (or alternatively, a Planeswalker that made 1/1 Goblins... maybe too slow for that deck?)

Then again I could be totally off and perhaps the days of tribal aggro decks in Legacy are over.

This is very similar to the Deadguy build I play/will play when Sorin's price comes down.

4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Mother of Runes
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords To Plowshares

4 SFM
4 Dark Confidant
2 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Hymn To Tourach

4 Vindicate

2 Sorin

1 Batterskull

Currently testing Sorin over Elspeth. Given that it's a control deck with some heavy board presence, Sorin's ultimate is by no means off the table, as has been suggested. It often gets into stalemates with other decks, particularly Maverick and UW. Planeswalkers regularly get to high loyalty counts in such situations, but, unlike Elspeth, Sorin can break those stalemates like a champ.

[Antonius]

Azorius Guildmage blows. Her abilities are too expensive to be really effective in Legacy.

Why not simply sticking Thalia into Death & Taxes? She fits the shell with some mana denial nicely.

Or you could build around--

Thalia
Glowrider
Lodestone Golem

with Mom and SFM to bolster the strategy. It seems way more profitable to go 'all in' on the aggro-sphere strategy, given how slow mangara is.

Or, you could flip the equation of GW Maverick upside down and play more white so you have Thalia, Noble Hierarch, Kotr. Turn 1 noble, turn 2 thalia + waste you seems pretty back breaking.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I don't like this card because it makes blue decks better against things they used to be cold to (ex. Dredge)

I think this and MM other cards like it keep getting printed because wotc wants to give non-blue a chance in Eternal formats, but what usually happens with the new cards is that blue just uses them and gets stronger instead. :sadface:

Bingo. This new grave hate is incredibly powerful against "unfair" graveyard decks like Dredge, but not really a boon to decks like Zoo that don't have any sort of card selection (i.e. Brainstorm). In a hypothetical match, if Zoo sides this in against Dredge they have to win two games on the back of luck, drawing the hate card and playing it to disrupt Dredge all the while hoping that the Dredge player doesn't draw the anti-hate (Nature's Claim most likely, though casting Therapy from their hand could work as well). This basically means it is still all about mulling to get hate for non-Blue decks.

Blue decks, on the other hand, love this. It's amazing grave hate that is quite versatile as well, so it can likely earn sideboard spots. And thanks to the power of card selection and disruption found in Blue, those decks will have a much greater chance to actually draw the hate along with a hand with a plan.

I'm not necessarily on the "Ban Brainstorm" bandwagon, but Wizards needs to at least keep in mind the power that it, among other things, gives Blue decks when it comes to sideboarding and maybe design accordingly.

[Koby]

Wizards has explicitly stated they do not test cards for Eternal formats. This one is needed for Standard and Block, and just happens to be pretty versatile and easy to splash for Blue, that it aids the color moreso than the others.

At least this is just as effective for Red (minus the mulls to fine it) as it is for Blue.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Cage is just this generation's Pithing Needle.

When Needle first came out it was a high dollar card like Cage is now, Survival was a tier deck like Reanimator and Dredge are now, and everyone filled their SB with Needles which they will now do with Cage.

Over time Survival went away because of all the hate and new decks came up. Pithing Needle became less good and less people ran it. When less people ran Needles Survival came back. I suspect that's going to be the arc of Cage as well. Dredge and Reanimator will go away for a while, other decks will come up to take advantage of people running Cage over things that nuke the GY, then people will switch back to traditional GY hate and Dredge and Reanimator will resurface.

[Koby]

I'm really hoping that Survival gets unbanned now thanks to Cage. I really miss EPIC Survival Elves.

[Richard Cheese]

Bingo. This new grave hate is incredibly powerful against "unfair" graveyard decks like Dredge, but not really a boon to decks like Zoo that don't have any sort of card selection (i.e. Brainstorm). In a hypothetical match, if Zoo sides this in against Dredge they have to win two games on the back of luck, drawing the hate card and playing it to disrupt Dredge all the while hoping that the Dredge player doesn't draw the anti-hate (Nature's Claim most likely, though casting Therapy from their hand could work as well). This basically means it is still all about mulling to get hate for non-Blue decks.

Blue decks, on the other hand, love this. It's amazing grave hate that is quite versatile as well, so it can likely earn sideboard spots. And thanks to the power of card selection and disruption found in Blue, those decks will have a much greater chance to actually draw the hate along with a hand with a plan.

I'm not necessarily on the "Ban Brainstorm" bandwagon, but Wizards needs to at least keep in mind the power that it, among other things, gives Blue decks when it comes to sideboarding and maybe design accordingly.

Zoo and Maverick can easily run an Enlightened Tutor board to grab this, and at least for Zoo it seems a lot better than Crypt/Relic, or trying to mull to an extraction. I'll most likely give it a try in Zoo, since it also stops the endless StPs from UW decks, and cuts off Maverick's GSZ plan.

[Uly Van Hammer]

I'm really hoping that Survival gets unbanned now thanks to Cage. I really miss EPIC Survival Elves.

This card does absolutely nothing to inhibit survival.

[GGoober]

I'm really hoping that Survival gets unbanned now thanks to Cage. I really miss EPIC Survival Elves.

My love for Legacy went down 50% when I couldn't play TEES and Welder Jank Survival. Up till this day, I eat BBQ Vengevines for breakfast in remembrance of a great and balanced archetype/pillar of Legacy.

I mean if people think that turn 3-5 Priest of Titania ramping into Mirror Entity with Anger in the yard requiring multiple dudes in play swinging for lethal is broken, they may need to re-evaluate the format again. Also, Vengevine Survival seems much more neutered these days with Cage and Extraction in print.

Why did they have to print Vengevine before these 2 cards. We shall do you justice again one day, Goblin with the Pickaxe.

[Antonius]

This card does absolutely nothing to inhibit survival.

except stop the unfair and busted vengevine plan?

I think it's been common knowledge that survival = fair; vengevine = fair; survival + vengevine = the nuts.

[Aggro_zombies]

except stop the unfair and busted vengevine plan?

I think it's been common knowledge that survival = fair; vengevine = fair; survival + vengevine = the nuts.
They're playing a card that lets them pay G and discard something that does not destroy Cage to search their libraries for something that does. So, okay, you make them use a Qasali Pridemage or that one Sliver to blow up your Cage. Then they find one more guy and Vengevine you to death.

[Kich867]

I'm not necessarily on the "Ban Brainstorm" bandwagon, but Wizards needs to at least keep in mind the power that it, among other things, gives Blue decks when it comes to sideboarding and maybe design accordingly.

So, what the hell does that even mean? Blue decks have better card selection so they can better find their hate cards, other decks have to draw into it.

What exactly..should wizards keep in mind about that situation? Make a card that says "If your deck contains no islands you may start with this card in your opening hand because you can't brainstorm and hope to find it."?

What design theory could they implement to not let blue find a hate card easier than a deck without brainstorm?

[Shawn]

This card does absolutely nothing to inhibit survival.



They're playing a card that lets them pay G and discard something that does not destroy Cage to search their libraries for something that does. So, okay, you make them use a Qasali Pridemage or that one Sliver to blow up your Cage. Then they find one more guy and Vengevine you to death.


Quoted for truth. Or they just dome you a bunch with Necrotic Ooze, trumping any sort of removal you had in hand or blockers, Moat/E Bridge/permanent hate.

Seriously, unbanning Survival would be awful.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Quoted for truth. Or they just dome you a bunch with Necrotic Ooze, trumping any sort of removal you had in hand or blockers, Moat/E Bridge/permanent hate.

Seriously, unbanning Survival would be awful.

Unbanning Survival would be sweet if it was announced at the same time as the banning of Vengevine. I'd gladly trade a card that will never see play for a card I enjoyed playing with/against.

[Shawn]

I was pro Vengevine getting banned over Sur, but I don't really miss either. The Ooze combo is incredibly powerful, not too mention if you brought in a bunch of grave hate they could "just" Survival for a bunch of dudes and kill you that way.

On the topic of Cage, this card is really sweet, but the sky is not falling for grave-based strategies, as some people mentioned it doesn't interact well with Loam, Ruins, P Fire, etc.

[I am the brainwasher]

The reason behind not unbanning Survival will stay the same as it was right after the Vengevine horror-scenario. Survival keeps away a lot of design space and has to be kept in mind very carefully when it comes down creating new creatures.
Do not get that wrong, the same is true (maybe on a different, not so dramatic level) for cards like Snapcaster but there is huge difference in terms of sheer powerlevel between Survival and other cards/engines that have to be kept in check.
I also was kinda sad that Survival left the format, the card by itself is just awesome and the decks using it before Vengevine appeared were beatiful, but I also doesnt miss the card at all right now and can definetly understand that an unbanning isnt possible, mostly respecting new sets that will be printed.

@Grfdggr's Cg:

The picture is awesome, its effect is awesome, the flavour and the card by itself is awesome.
It is way more fair than it might look like to some (maybe the same players that start to scoop when LlotV appears on the battlefield...) and the players that want to play around/handle the card will continue to do so in the future like they did with others, including myself at some points.
Love4theh8 on my part, allover well done.

[Malchar]

The problem with Grafdigger's Cage and Mental Misstep is that they want to give strong effects to decks that aren't necessarily blue, but blue decks will just use it anyway. Then, at the end of the day, no other colors can ever catch up to blue, and blue remains the best. Because of the way that colorless mana works, you can't give stuff to white, black, red, and green without blue getting it as well. The correct way would be to add colored cards one at a time like what they started to do with Mana Tithe.

So we have Jotun Grunt, Withered Wretch (among others), and Scavenging Ooze. How about something strong for red without necessarily giving it to blue as well? Obviously graveyard hate is available to all colors, so it's not like it would bend the color pie.

[Octopusman]

The problem with Grafdigger's Cage and Mental Misstep is that they want to give strong effects to decks that aren't necessarily blue, but blue decks will just use it anyway. Then, at the end of the day, no other colors can ever catch up to blue, and blue remains the best. Because of the way that colorless mana works, you can't give stuff to white, black, red, and green without blue getting it as well. The correct way would be to add colored cards one at a time like what they started to do with Mana Tithe.

So we have Jotun Grunt, Withered Wretch (among others), and Scavenging Ooze. How about something strong for red without necessarily giving it to blue as well? Obviously graveyard hate is available to all colors, so it's not like it would bend the color pie.

I pretty much agree with you but the only problem is, and this has been discussed elsewhere, is that if you don't make the card have at least double colored mana, blue will play it too. If it costs double or triple colored mana, it's either too slow and/or not good enough. :-/