United States of Esper - Sorin 2.0 and his Army

[death]

for discussions on UWb Esper with Stoneblade package visit:
1. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Esper-America (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21943-Deck-Esper-America&highlight=esper) or
2. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...UWb-Esperblade (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21453-Deck-UWb-Esperblade)


Here's a quick draft of a Stoneforge-less version that I'm testing..

// Lands - 20
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland

// Planeswalkers - 3
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

// Enchantments - 4
4 Bitterblossom

// Creatures - 10
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Tombstalker

// Spells - 23
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

[klaus]

I assume that Sorin guy is a pet card of yours, so please don't take offense when I claim that he'd be better off as Spell Snares - especially regarding your low land count (20), which clearly is too low for a deck packing 6-9* CMC3 spells and 3 CMC4ers - plus you want to use Wasteland to destroy other lands rather than using it as a mana source in a Stifle deck (lowering your virtual land count further)

*counting Stalkers

[Mr. Safety]

So Sorin basically replaces the Stoneforge package...interesting.

This list reminds me very closely of an older Faerie-Stalker type of setup. Sorin and the white splash may just be what my faeries deck needs. I'm not sure what the lack of Force of Will will do to the deck, unless you're thinking of putting it into your sideboard for certain matchups?

I can't help but think that Spellstutter Sprite only gets better with the new Sorin giving it a combat boost. For ages Spellstutter has dissapointed as a threat, maybe this will change that.

[Aggro_zombies]

I assume that Sorin guy is a pet card of yours, so please don't take offense when I claim that he'd be better off as Spell Snares - especially regarding your low land count (20), which clearly is too low for a deck packing 6-9* CMC3 spells and 3 CMC4ers - plus you want to use Wasteland to destroy other lands rather than using it as a mana source in a Stifle deck (lowering your virtual land count further)

*counting Stalkers
He'd also probably be better as a Stoneforge package. Or as Elspeth, since 8/8 Tomstalkers seem sweet.

[death]

@Mr. Safety, indeed there is a resemblance to Faestalker however there are no Spellstutter Sprites in this build as I've replaced them with Delvers and the result was impressive. A pair of Delvers combined with the tempo/disruption package has allowed me to race faster aggro decks and tempo without SFM package.

The advantage of Sorin 2.0 over Elspeth (and Jace) is that he doesn't require double W or U which is ideal in a tri-color build with Wastelands. In my limited testing, I've never used his ultimate. In most games I've went from pumping out 2-3 tokens to giving my flyers +1/+0 permanently, most of the time that was enough. All creatures benefit from it so a single removal spell won't hurt much unlike Elspeth's targeted ability. I think Sorin does a better job both on the defensive and offensive side. The lifelink is relevant, especially when the tokens are upgraded to 2/1s. And like Jace's unsummon ability, Sorin can keep attackers at bay with his army of vampires.

[Mystical_Jackass]

*wasteland* You lose. That's what happens when you try to hit 4 mana with 20 lands and running wastes.

Why does this deck need blue too, I just dont get it? Why doesn't it just add Hymn, Bob, Stoneforge etc. You're reallying gonna go double blue double black and have the balls to run wastes as well?

[kiblast]

I know that it seems a completely different deck, but here's what I'd play in a esper-control shell.

lands (20)

1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Mutavault
4 Wasteland


Permanents (15)

2 Sorin
4 Bitterblossom
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells (25)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Ponder
3 Stifle
3 Spell Snare


Off the top of my head: You run Blossom, you run a planeswalker that gives you an advantage for running flying creatures: you need Spellstutter.
More istants and sorceries: you want to flip Delver.
4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponders: flip Delver, find solutions, find Spellstutters, find Sorin, cheat on mana base.
Mana base: 21 lands with 8 cantrips should work just fine. Also you are much more reliable against Wasteland. You run Stifle anyway.
I'd like to fit Moat in here.

[death]

Why does this deck need blue too, I just dont get it? Why doesn't it just add Hymn, Bob, Stoneforge etc. You're reallying gonna go double blue double black and have the balls to run wastes as well?

I find that Brainstorm, Delver, Stifle are good enough reasons to run blue. Also the possibility of running V. Clique, Daze/Spell Pierce is hard to pass up. Bob + SFM + Hymn = Deadguy which is an already established deck. But I think Deadguy could still be a better deck if it ran Brainstorm. Bob won't blend well with Bitterblossoms = major life loss. Double U-B with Wastelands takes a lot of balls but it's doable. Tombstalker is worth the double black being a big fat flyer, dudes with evasion is just what a Sorin deck needs. Seas+Trops+Bayou seem to work for Team America, I'm merely Mind Bending duals here.


*wasteland* You lose. That's what happens when you try to hit 4 mana with 20 lands and running wastes.

Reason for the playset of Stifles, they've been great against Wastelands and triggered abilities, not just fetchlands. Sorin, the only CMC 4 in the deck is a late bomb, with all the 1-3 CMC spells at my disposal there should be plenty of time to reach 4 mana. But 21 lands isn't a terrible idea.

@kiblast
Your 21 lands has only 8 colored sources + 7 fetchlands, which could pose a problem. I'm currently running 9 sources + 8 fetchlands, which seems fine. I'd chose Factories over Mutavaults if I I were to run manlands since the Workers can give themselves +1/+1. I would like to find room for 3 Spellstutter Sprites + 2 Ponder. Although I feel your list is threat-light, without Equipments I'm not sure if the 1/1s are enough to provide a good beating. Regarding the slots for Force of Will & Spell Snare that everyone is suggesting, I guess I seem to be doing well with IoK/Thoughtseize/Vindicate package for now :)

edit- Hymn to Tourach has potential here, needs further testing to see how the card pans out.

[kiblast]

@kiblast
Your 21 lands has only 8 colored sources + 7 fetchlands, which could pose a problem.


Yeah, but my list doesn't run 4 Vindicate (requires double specific mana) and just one Stalker (which is also easily cuttable for another threat such as Clique). It also plays 4 Ponders more than the initial list. Manafixing is not really a problem.



I'd chose Factories over Mutavaults if I I were to run manlands since the Workers can give themselves +1/+1.
I think everybody would run Factories over Mutavaults in a vacuum. But Spellstutter Sprite checks the number of Faeries you control, not the number of Assembly Worker you control...



Although I feel your list is threat-light, without Equipments I'm not sure if the 1/1s are enough to provide a good beating.

Yeah I recognize the lack of a good number of threats. I think the list needs some testing. I also highly dislike Stalker in my list, so I need another kind of threat.

[from Cairo]

I think Clique seems like a good fit in Kiblast's style list. I could see running that over the lone Tombstalker. I'm not sure that 4 Bitterblossom is optimal either, they can be very swingy in multiples, when you're behind they're very clunky. Admittedly when you're winning you get to win twice as fast, it may come down to meta, the more agro there is the less great Bitterblossom (and Fae tempo/agro-control in general) is. Or Sorin's emblem may push Bitterblossom's power level enough to make it an auto 4-of, I haven't tested them with that interaction. With the 8 cantrips I doesn't seem like you'd have much trouble finding one as a 3-of when you need it though, I guess it's a matter of whether it's a card you want multiples of.

[kiblast]

I think Clique seems like a good fit in Kiblast's style list. I could see running that over the lone Tombstalker. I'm not sure that 4 Bitterblossom is optimal either, they can be very swingy in multiples, when you're behind they're very clunky. Admittedly when you're winning you get to win twice as fast, it may come down to meta, the more agro there is the less great Bitterblossom (and Fae tempo/agro-control in general) is. Or Sorin's emblem may push Bitterblossom's power level enough to make it an auto 4-of, I haven't tested them with that interaction. With the 8 cantrips I doesn't seem like you'd have much trouble finding one as a 3-of when you need it though, I guess it's a matter of whether it's a card you want multiples of.

Yes, you are definitely right, Clique seems better than Stalker. I'd probably cut the stalker and something else (Bitterblossom?) to fit 2 Cliques ( they tend to die easily).

I think Blossom/Sorin interaction is really good.

Ninja edit: Cutting a land instead of the 4th Blossom seems more reasonable. I like the ''Thresh'' approach (8 Cantrips, light manabase, no difficult casting costs except for Sorin). Tempo Thresh runs 18 lands with 8 cantrips and no 4cc's. I think 20 lands is reasonable considering the low number of high cc's played.

[catmint]

How easy would deckbuilding be if you could just slam the best spells and 20 lands in a deck.

This thread has a serious manabase and gameplan issue! People seem to confuse tempo and control!

I am thinking about Esper (control and tempo) since a while and also tested some builds. Comparing to TA and BUG which i play a lot, Esper has more powerful spells overall but a serious manabase issue. In BUG you need basically UB and green at some point for a hand full of spells. In Esper you want to cast all the sweet blue, white and black spells early on.

You can solve that issue by downgrading black and not using discard. So just for bitterblossom and Sorin... That brings up the question why using black instead of red, because red deals much better with maverick or other tempo strategies.

I also think the deck should play more like a control than a tempo deck and take stoneblade as a template. Which brings me to another point... Jace is still the man and Sorin can support as a 1-2 of. Again the point: why splash black instead of red in UW stoneblade.

[death]

This thread has a serious manabase and gameplan issue! People seem to confuse tempo and control!

I am thinking about Esper (control and tempo) since a while and also tested some builds. Comparing to TA and BUG which i play a lot, Esper has more powerful spells overall but a serious manabase issue. In BUG you need basically UB and green at some point for a hand full of spells. In Esper you want to cast all the sweet blue, white and black spells early on.

Thank you for your contribution, though I have to massively disagree(!) with almost everything you said. As for the mana base issue, on which you have contributed absolutely nothing to resolve, here is what I have to say. In testing, I found out that running basics in this deck is a losing proposition and I can't anymore count the number of times I drew off color basics and duals, lost tempo which caused me the game. The reliable way for Esper to work is to run a configuration like TA, so fuck basics!

Here is the 21-land manabase that I'm talking about. I now play 4x Hymn to Tourach in place of 2 Thoughtsize/2 Inquisition of Kozilek. That's right ain't double black a bitch? Well not really:

8 Polluted Delta/Flooded Strand/Marsh Flats
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

As for tempo vs control confusion, I'm not sure if this was addressed to me, but fuck semantics! Control and Tempo share cards, cheap spells/answers and these terms can be used mistakenly but that isn't grave sin. IMHO, the only BUG decks i call control are those decks that run mass removal spells like Deed, Damnation and hard counters like Counterspell. Anything Stifle.Waste.Daze = tempo. Regarding this deck, it is tempo. It plays cheap threats while denying an opponent the chance to develop.

I'm currently testing a TA 'style-Esper build which is different from what is posted on the top and the list I'm not inclined to share. There is no strict rule to have UB or UW source early on. It will depend on what answers I have drawn and what the opponent have on the table, but U.Sea+U.Sea+Tundra usually works, hence why the re-worked manabase looks as it is. I've said it 4 posts up, and I still find no reason to fear Wastelands. Blood Moon is the Achilles' heel as some would say.


You can solve that issue by downgrading black and not using discard. So just for bitterblossom and Sorin... That brings up the question why using black instead of red, because red deals much better with maverick or other tempo strategies.

VINDICATE isblack. Red is, well Lightning Bolt which doesn't kill anything bigger than Lavamancer, Hierarch, or Mom. The 3cc spell kills ev-very-thing. Then there's Hymn which I haven't played for a while but I still find it to be a wrecking ball against most decks, Batterskull included. I must confess I've dismissed Mystical_Jackass's earlier suggestion but Dark Confidant is a-must, Bob felt really strong.


I also think the deck should play more like a control than a tempo deck and take stoneblade as a template. Which brings me to another point... Jace is still the man and Sorin can support as a 1-2 of.

Read the first post, Stoneblade is banned from discussion. There's reasons why the deck doesn't want to play Stoneblade (but mainly it's because of preference).


Again the point: why splash black instead of red in UW stoneblade.

Again: I just answered this.


Which brings me to another point... Jace is still the man and Sorin can support as a 1-2 of.

Like what 2-3 posters above you have already mentioned, I have to agree.


How easy would deckbuilding be if you could just slam the best spells and 20 lands in a deck.
Likewise. Swapping Snapcasters in place of Tombstalkers in Team America doesn't make it a new deck, nor a control deck, IMO. Cheers