DTB forum's current decks discussion

[Gui]

I was wondering if there was a place to talk about the current "metagame" stabilished by DTB forums, for example, to talk about the trend in which Maverick results keep rising, or Dredge keeps falling and returning as a reflex of hate being used or not, or the fact that Merfolks stayed DTB for too long. Maybe it could be done here?


To start with, the current DTBs are:

Maverick
Blade Control
Threshold UGR
Reanimator
UR Burn (aka U/R Delver)
Dredge
Team America
Zoo
ANT


And the decks that left this status for this month were Bant Aggro and Merfolks.

Nihil Credo updates it in DTBF section, which can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection&p=613820&viewfull=1#post613820

[xfxf]

I think Bant and Show and Tell combo are missing there. I don't agree with Zoo and ANT could have been TES..

[Sloshthedark]

I think Bant and Show and Tell combo are missing there. I don't agree with Zoo and ANT could have been TES..

well that is plain statistics from the top8s .. you see ANT much more often than TES although stats no TC can be mixed

on the other hand 8-10 decks in DTB is a lot, clearly Tier 1 is just Maverick, UW and Thresh

[TkDodo]

I was wondering if there was a place to talk about the current "metagame" stabilished by DTB forums, for example, to talk about the trend in which Maverick results keep rising, ...

Since TheSource started doing monthly updates of the DTB section, depending on the weighted placements provided by tcdecks (which means: since May 2011, which again means during as well as post Mental Misstep), Maverick's results have been the following:

May 2011: Place 3
June 2011: Place 1
July 2011: Place 1
August 2011: Place 6
September 2011: Place 1
October 2011: Place 1
November 2011: Place 2
December 2011: Place 1

And for January 2011, Maverick has also acquired the most top 8 finishes so far.

So just because Americans, especially SCG Open Players, finally caught up on what the rest of the world, espcecially Europe, has been doing for more than half a year, doesn't mean that Mavericks results have been rising all of a sudden. In fact, it has been the only deck not falling out of DTB for the last 7 months!

[catmint]

I agree TKdodo...
but you have to build/deckselect with maverick in mind now more than ever because people just do what SCG does. :)

Finally BUG Control was also regocnized as a DTB. (Team America has now 2 threads). More than 75% of the Team America results have been BUG control, so IMO TA does not belong here and maybe even BUG would fall out. As somebody mentioned: Thresh, UW and especially Maverick are the clear DTB.

BUG might become more important as a control deck since deed deals with mother of runes in the same way as with pesky 1 mana anti snapcaster artifacts...:)

[Einherjer]

What I find funny is that Show and Tell have a great winpercentage vs all the DtB but the Tempo ones :P Thanksfuly I seem to be the only one playing it here (Austria^^)

Greetings

[Skeggi]

Reference:

http://i.imgur.com/IKwsp.jpg

There are 3 very obvious Tier 1 decks: Maverick, Blade and UGr.

I thought this thread was to discuss the meta with these 3 decks. How do you win tournaments where these 3 are the most dominant decks?

[Einherjer]

I built an metadeck in order to fight 2 of this 3 DtB while not losing to the third...

I called it PunishingStalker and it got totally ignored in the developmental section...
In any way... the core is RUB:
Delver, Snapcaster and Tombstalkers as creatures
Jace and Liliana as Planeswalkers
Punishing Fire + Removal/Discard is the black part
Counter

And yeah thats it - mainboard you play 0 discard, but aloot of removal so you should win vs Maverick and Stoneblade - Sideboard discard vs Combo-decks.

PunishingFire + Removal +Snapcaster is deadly against Maverick, whilst Punishing Fire on its own shuts of Stoneblade...

Only Deck that isnt easy is RUG Tempo - speak its a 45% MU...

What do you guys think?

Greetings

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Shouldn't Aggro Loam just feed on UW and Tempo while being slightly favoured against Maverick (with Punishing fires )?

I feel like that deck is underplayed right now. Bloodbraid Jund should be able to finish in the top seats as well atm.

[Gui]

People, keep in mind that there's no such thing as "deserves to be DTB" or "there are too much DTBs". Any deck with more points (which is a complicated system involving number of rounds played before top8) than a given % (I think it's 5%) will be on DTB. This there is to discuss about the decks in DTB, or these that lost this status, or even these that are criminally underplayed... Well, the updates and the changes, generally.


On Maverick subject, I think it's been pretty impressive how a deck without Blue is so successful for such a long time, and was thinking if it is so because it's good on beating blue decks...

[Finn]

How do you win tournaments where these 3 are the most dominant decks? At the risk of raising the ire of certain big mouths, Death and Taxes.

You have to go all the way down to ANT to find a bad matchup, although the Geist-Mav decks are not as easy as the other builds, maybe even unfavorable. Not enough data on that one.

[Koby]

At the risk of raising the ire of certain big mouths, Death and Taxes.

You have to go all the way down to ANT to find a bad matchup, although the Geist-Mav decks are not as easy as the other builds, maybe even unfavorable. Not enough data on that one.

I somewhat agree, and especially for the last SCG tournament, there was literally Reanimator everywhere. They love nothing more than seeing Karakas on your side of the board. Death & Taxes can even be tailored to make sure it doesn't lose to ANT on a normal non-nut (turn 1 kills) game by playing with Canonist maindeck.

Maverick has been winning in the metagame since NPH due to the uprise in Blue decks. The more stack-control dominates the metagame, the more Maverick will be on its heels to crush spell-based Control.

[xfxf]

Reference:

There are 3 very obvious Tier 1 decks: Maverick, Blade and UGr.

I thought this thread was to discuss the meta with these 3 decks. How do you win tournaments where these 3 are the most dominant decks?


Thanks for providing the data, I didn't think that there was that much Zoo around. Grand Prix will be interesting for sure.

I think Spiral Tide is also strong against the current top contenders. It can hold its ground against blue better than other storm combo with a counter heavy build. I only find it troublesome against other combo decks but with a strong player it should easily sail past Maverick, UW Blade, Zoo and UR delver decks. RUG can be more skill intensive though against good draws.

[Gui]

Thanks for providing the data, I didn't think that there was that much Zoo around.

Actually, there's also a balanced data, and Nihil posts it every month, which can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection&p=613820&viewfull=1#post613820

[wizard_of_gore]

It's right time for pernicious deed decks (rock, junk, landstill etc) to crush mavericks ass. Also, vindicate is not bad because daze is underplayed right now. Beeing versatile to rip off batterskull, land, jace or nasty creature is mvp.

[Alexeezay]

Daze underplayed with a lot of RUG/Thresh? ^^

Results already show that Rock is strong. More and more Nic Fit/Explorer Rock Top 8s

[Gui]

So, uh... Burn is a DTB now :eek:

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh hell yes. When I was a kid, my parents promised me so much stuff when hell froze over. Looks like it's finally time to collect on that!

[Hanni]

Burn's always been a decent deck that was 1-2 cards away from being Tier 1.5

When the format is completely soft to Burn, and filling their sideboards up to combat different linear decks, it's no surprise than Burn destroys the meta.

Can you imagine what would happen if people weren't prepared for Dredge?

However, I think mono red Burn is alot worse than blue splash Burn with Brainstorm and Delver, but that's just my opinion.

[Koby]

So Burn is a deck to beat, which means I'm means I'm gettin drunk to pass my worries away.

[Amon Amarth]

Oh hell yes. When I was a kid, my parents promised me so much stuff when hell froze over. Looks like it's finally time to collect on that!

[Einherjer]

Burn.....may.......not...................be..........deck............to..............beat...............................................aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...............play......................more.......................counterbalances...................

[from Cairo]

I'm honestly really liking the meta right now.

It doesn't feel like there's a best deck, a bunch of tier 1-1.5 strategies can be adjusted to have game against the expected field. A bunch of the Established decks are well positioned against some of the DTBs. To me it just seems like a really healthy time to play, tune/metagame and develop legacy strategies.

[kwelts]

I'm honestly really liking the meta right now.

It doesn't feel like there's a best deck, a bunch of tier 1-1.5 strategies can be adjusted to have game against the expected field. A bunch of the Established decks are well positioned against some of the DTBs. To me it just seems like a really healthy time to play, tune/metagame and develop legacy strategies.

i agree 100% i have a colorless MUD deck and with proper sideboarding, it has no guaranteed losses to certain decks.

[Gui]

I'm honestly really liking the meta right now.

It doesn't feel like there's a best deck, a bunch of tier 1-1.5 strategies can be adjusted to have game against the expected field. A bunch of the Established decks are well positioned against some of the DTBs. To me it just seems like a really healthy time to play, tune/metagame and develop legacy strategies.

I also think it this way, and it's good to know that a lot of decks have stable and viable strategies.

[Rekk]

I've been wondering peoples opinions on the current legacy metagame.
It appears that the trio of top teir has begun to shape (esper stoneblade g/w and rug) with a few combo decks (high tide, tendrils and dredge) as well as others coming into the scene. My main question was do you guys see g/w as becoming the dominate deck?
I ask this because with thalia is appears to have a good game against both stoneblade and rug, as well as helping out g/w in its typically poor combo matchups.

[baghdadbob]

Well according to DI who is a moderator on this site, combo is well positioned in this meta. In my opinion the decks to beat are as follows...

-Storm
-Maverick
-Aggro (Goblins? Merfolk?)

I have been playing my monoblack deck in this same sort of environment (check it out if you get a chance) and think that it is also well positioned.

[Koby]

Maverick didn't need Thalia to help beat RUG and Stoneblade, but she doesn't hurt either.

There are plenty of decks that can attack Maverick successfully, but are often soft to the rest of the field. I think the key to the metagame at this point is to either ignore interaction (Storm) or overload on attrition (black denial decks).

[Einherjer]

You think that Goblins+Merfolk is a DtB?
Honestly I havnt seen these decks since snow has fallen...

If we say that there are 4 DtB we see that all great archetypes are represented

Aggro Control Tempo Combo
Maverick Stoneblade Canadian HighTide

[Vacrix]

Yeah sorry but Maverick does Merfolks job only better, and now with Thalia for some maindeck storm hate. And GSZ? Storm better have that turn 1 or 2 win or else they'll find themselves paying quite a lot for their spells.

I actually feel like Goblins could do well again. It still shows up here and there but the majority of the creatures you're dealing with against Maverick are within Tarfire range so maybe it will come back.

[Hanni]

Maverick doesn't necessarily do Merfolk's job better, it's just better against the current blue metagame (i.e Stoneblade). If people remember correctly, Merfolk was a metagame deck that became dominant during the CounterTop era because it destroyed blue control decks.

Board control decks, meaning spells like Wrath of God and Pernicious Deed, have a good matchup against Maverick, while having a bad matchup against Merfolk.

The problem right now is that few people have realized that this is the answer to the metagame (board control).

[Vacrix]

Thats what I meant. Merfolk beat up bluedecks and had a reasonable combo matchup. Maverick has filled Merfolk's roll of beating up blue decks and now that UR Delver/RUG Tempo variants are running around, Maverick has gotten away with just playing hatebears to beat combo (and Moms). That and GSZ. Mean you are always going to have a turn 3 bear, and often post-board you have access to Teeg/Cannonist ontop of maindeck Thalia.


I agree that Deed is definitely good right now. I attribute Nic Fit's DTB status partly to that fact.

[Gui]

Ok, so, for the first time since December 2011 Maverick is not the highest performing deck in DTB, for 18 points (out of four hundred), behind UGr Threshold, that was the second deck since then. Yeah sure, ban Show and Tell, let the GW and the UGr Brainstorm decks keep on ruling free. :tongue:

[feline]

Out of the starcity legacy events open series & invitational's, at least out of the past 2 months or so, April 2012 -to- As of this posting, -RUG has put out the most numbers by far, showing up in the top 16's well more than any other deck (48 times)
Show and tell has been on the move up thanks to griselbrand (16 times)
Maverick is still pushing (15 showings)
UR Delver, RUG's weaker cousin, has also been increasing it's showings (15 times)
Stoneblade has been on a decline in comparison to where it was a while ago, most showings now being Esper stoneblade over the old U/W (8 placings, 2 as U/W, 6 as esper)
Dredge will never go away, winning first on a couple of events (out of 8 total high placings in this time period)
Elves has actually been on a slight increase (6 top 16's)
MUD has also been on a slight increase (6 top 16/s)
NIC FIT is another one (6 top 16's)
Reanimator has also been on an increase thanks to griselbrand (5 top 16's)
Belcher, including 1 list with no sideboard (15 islands) has shown up more than usual (5 top 16's)
& even Hive mind has been on an increase after going months without any top 16 performances, showing up now 4 times in the past 2 months or so worth of starcity events.
---
Other decks have had regular showings, just enough to say they are around, like BANT, BUG, Burn, Goblins, Affinity, High Tide, TES, Dream halls, Hypergenesis, UW Miracles.
---
On the other side of the coin, so to speak however, is this:
ANT has had no showings in the top 16's in the past 2 months going back to mid April from now, mid June
Zoo has had 1 top 16 showing in the past 2 months, and has really been on the decline when you compare how it performed during mental misstep & pre-mental misstep events.
Merfolk (only 1 top 16 in the past 2 months) is another deck that declined, like zoo, but has been dead for even longer, at least as far as the big starcity legacy events go.
Liliana pox was running around for a bit earlier this year, that seem's to have stopped
I haven't seen a painter's stone list of either Mono red -or- UR in quite a while.

All in all, the format is ever changing, and at least according to the starcitygame metagames, RUG has been the deck to beat more steadily than any other deck since the mental misstep banning, Maverick had a weekend where it went nuts and had like 50% top showings, and the further you go back, the better stoneblade decks seemed to be doing.

It is nice to see decks that aren't performing as well here, performing on a higher level in other metagames, whether it's a 20 person event or a 200 person event. I myself will always have most all of the type 1.5 decks I own whether they decline or increase in numbers wherever! though if a deck becomes totally horrible, i might have to part with it if i figured i'd never play it ever again.

[thefringthing]

All roads lead to Thoughtseize.

[f|i[p]]

As soon as Maverick is out of the DTB, it will be an all blue dtb meta...
Mav is not even placing high enough even with their outrageous numbers...

so... an all blue meta, filled with combo, control and aggro control... (aggro blue?)

What is a non blue player supposed to do...

[Awaclus]

;649957']What is a non blue player supposed to do...
Play Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast.

[Humphrey]

ban Brainstorm

[f|i[p]]

I'm sometimes not even sure if its even brainstorm anymore...

It may have gone beyond brainstorm...I don't know anymore...

Its usually easier for blue to do so many things... splashing, scuplting hands, digging, flying threats, free spells, protecting threats,running less lands,deck construction.. just so many options, even if they still have to splash a color or 2.

but anyway, blue was always the top color, and I only see blue on the rise for each set that comes out...just like how they said, survival would only be more powerful for each set that comes out(Yes, I still think vengevines killed survival)...