Top 16 at Amsterdam Open with Sneek Attack

[Skeggi]

Tournament report by Erwin Sneek: clicky (http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=446). I hope you enjoy :smile:

[lordofthepit]

Tournament report by Erwin Sneek: clicky (http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=446). I hope you enjoy :smile:

This quote about your teammate caught my eye:


Mattias predicted that there was going to be a lot of Aggro decks and Stoneblade, based on the results of legacy tournaments in the last couple of weeks, so he and Merrin decided to play the full 4 Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows in their Stoneblade deck

How did he manage to fit that? Are we talking U/W Stoneblade?

Edit: read the rest of the report. Awesome rip with the Sneak Attack!

[Skeggi]

Yeah, we're actually talking UWr Stoneblade. It's a pretty good build that got two 4-3 results that day. Mainly because the pilots made alot of mistakes because it's a very new deck. At least, I think that's the reason since it's not the easiest deck to play. It has many interactions which require experience.

[Water_Wizard]

Yeah, we're actually talking UWr Stoneblade. It's a pretty good build that got two 4-3 results that day. Mainly because the pilots made alot of mistakes because it's a very new deck. At least, I think that's the reason since it's not the easiest deck to play. It has many interactions which require experience.

Could you give a few examples of these interactions?

[Water_Wizard]

Thanks for the article and I like your team's webpage. I read it frequently and I especially enjoyed your last tournament report and the article about mulligans.

Three questions: What was the meta? Stormy? You mention it wasn't what you expected, but I don't remember reading what it actually was.

Do you consider moving Misdirection to the board or cutting it from the deck? It seems like you board it out very often and the card is limited in it's use. It came out 6/7 matches, staying in only against EsperBlade.

Why do you say your deck (Sneak & Show) is 95% to beat Imperial Painter? I doubt any deck that is 4-2 at a major legacy tournament is 95% versus any other deck that is 4-2 at a major legacy tournament. Imperial Painter is quicker than you, runs more Sol lands, can get a 1st turn Blood Moon lock (and you are only running 3 basic Islands) and has 6 main deck REB's (8 post board). I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just don't see how Sneak & Show is 95% versus Painter (or any other properly built Legacy deck).

Thanks for the report. Good info, as always. You know this deck well.

[Skeggi]

Hey Water_Wizard, please note that I was not one of the people playing UWr Stoneblade, nor did I play Sneek Attack. Those were all my teammates. I've redirected your questions to them. I had the pleasure of punting with my own deck "Internet Friends" which went 2-4-1. My god, that sounds bad, I've made so many errors. :eek:

I also did ask why Erwin thought his Painter match-up is so extremely easy. And his answer was simple (I facepalmed, with a duh, ofcourse): with Emrakul in your deck, it doesn't lose to PainterStone. Also, UR Sneek Attack isn't really bothered by Painter's best play against most decks: Turn 1 Mooneffect, since Sneek Attack can actually use the red mana, but also runs alot of basic Islands.

Edit: one of my teammates who played UWr Stoneblade is now bashing me on our teamforum that he went 4-2-1. Mea Culpa!

[MattiasNL]

Could you give a few examples of these reactions?

I assume you mean interactions. It's not really all that different from UW stoneblade, the only thing to keep in mind is you can return punishing fire with swords to plowshares.

I actually went 4-2-1 with the deck, losing to storm and dredge. Our sideboard against those decks was slightly too weak because I expected more aggro and less combo. Despite that those matches were still really close and against storm I could have won if I played differently (He knew I had FoW and played dark ritual with one land untapped, so I figured he must have duress and rite of flame so I countered the ritual. He had pyroblast and could then win with infernal + led. If I wait there is no way I can lose :frown:).

[Skeggi]

@Water_Wizard, Erwin replied to your questions:



Q1: What was the Meta?
Indeed, stormy. A lot less maverick and stoneblade then we expected.

Q2: Do you consider moving Misdirection to the board or cutting it from the deck?
I'm not sure yet. The up side about Misdirection, ofcourse, is that they don't expect the card. Misdirection their Hymn or Thoughtseize can be quite the blow-out!
Even against storm it can be a pretty good card, to redirect Orim's Chant. But I play so much better cards in the board against storm so i board them out.
Having 3 dead cards in your deck isn't all that bad since you can always pitch them to Force of Will, or brainstorm them away. And the upside of getting value out of it is worth the risk of playing them main I think.
I was just unlucky not to face any Force of Will decks, because they are awesome against those.

Q3: Why do you say your deck (Sneak & Show) is 95% to beat Imperial Painter?
I might have exaggerated a little bit, but the MU is really, really good. They have no way of winning with their combo, because of the triple Progenitus, so the only way for them to win is by going aggro. Even with Graveyard removal, they always get a Draw once they activate Grindstone. This buys me a lot of time, which I can use in my advantage.
Also, Firespouts are pretty good once they board out their Painter-Grindstone package.
Their moons can be a problem if they have it on turn 1 on the play, but even then I can still cast Sneak Attack to annihilate them. I used to play my own moons in the sideboard. Besides, I still have Lotus Petals to play around it, next to my basic islands.
I think their only way of winning is via Goblin Welder into Wurmcoil Engine, while they counter my Show and Tell.
I haven't tested a lot against it, but this is how I think the match should go theoretically. A friend of mine who plays Painter always confirmes how he never wants to play against Sneek Attack.

Thanks for the replies!

Erwin

[jandax]

The Top 8 of the tournament was:

3 Punishing/Maverick
3 UWx (black, metinks) Stoneblade
Dredge
RUG

That's pretty much the scene. Lots of Maverick, lots of Stoneblade, sprinkle in a few combo decks like Storm/Hive Mind (also Top 16'd)/Dredge, and the rest of the field settles down in the losers' bracket. Didn't read the report [yet], just thought some meta context would help regarding a few of those questions.

[Skeggi]

My opponents played: UW Tempo (2-0), TES (1-2), Nic Fit (1-1), UR Delver (1-2), Punishing Maverick (0-2), UW Stoneblade (2-1) and Punishing Stoneblade (0-2, teammate).

While I only encountered 1 Storm Combo, that was mainly because I was in the loserbracket. Higher tables had a higher percentage of Storm Combo.

[I am the brainwasher]

Are the Top16 lists up yet?
Would apprecieate that if you could give a link.
@Tourney:
Not a bad job.
@Meta:
Kinda curious if Canadian Threshold just isn't as common in NL as in other parts of europe, or did I got that wrong completely, you talking about the mata beeing infected with Maverick and Stoneblade?

Greetings

[Skeggi]

There is some, we usually call it RUG Delver or RUG Tempo (I think the latter is the best name to describe the deck). But yes, a couple of people played that deck too. But I think one of the best aspects of that deck is that it tricks your opponent into making mistakes. It sets certain tempo-traps, because it sets a certain clock, it lets its opponent play his spells too early or fetch too early. If you encounter too many people who know how to play against this deck, your chances are more limited.

So yes, the deck is still played, but with very variable success.

[I am the brainwasher]

You might have misunderstood me here :tongue:.
I know pretty good on my own what a Tempo-deck is, mostly because I play Canadian Threshold by myself.
I just wanted to know if it isn't such a big part of the meta as in other european countries, because you pointed out that the meta in NL looks pretty much like Stone-Blade and GWx-Maverick.
Same over here as far as I can tell but, with an relativeley equal counterpart part of Threshold+Reanimator, so I was júst wondering.
If your intention was to explain that a lot of dutch players adapted to Tempo-decks in general via changing their playstyle or tweaking decklists towards that MU, and it was kinda driven out of the competetive part of your meta, I think I got your point; otherwise I would have wished that your response would touch a bit more of the things I have asked for.

[Skeggi]

If your intention was to explain that a lot of dutch players adapted to Tempo-decks in general via changing their playstyle or tweaking decklists towards that MU, and it was kinda driven out of the competetive part of your meta, I think I got your point
That's it. Sorry for the confusion. As I said, it's still being played, but not alot. I'm not sure how big it is in the rest of Europe? From what you say I take it's at least 10% of the meta?

[Trentemoller]

I played it a couple of times (I took it to a top 4 at Dutch legacy champs) but Punishing Maverick pushed it out of the metagame. If you don't open on turn 1 Delver you don't stand a chance. The meta here is shifting towards more combo again so I hope Maverick will be less and less viable so I'm able to play it again :) Until then I will play TES. Really like it (see teamadhd.nl for tournament report). I borrowed and bought some cards on MTGO (mainly from Mattias) so I have it on magic online too, I will record some videos from 2-mans or a DE (in case one fires).

[Einherjer]

Could you plese ask Erwin Sneek where he sees the advantages of SneakShow over HiveMind?

Thanks and Greetings

[Skeggi]

I also asked him that once, because winning without using the combat phase is generally better than winning through the combat phase. His reply comes down to this:

Hive Mind wins on Show and Tell/Hive Mind=>Pact or Show and Tell/Fatty or just casting Hive Mind=>Pact.

Sneek Attack wins on Show and Tell/Fatty or Sneak Attack/Fatty.

As you can see, there are more variables for Hive Mind. You need Show and Tell, Hive Mind and Pact. What if you just have Show and Tell and a Pact, or a Fatty and a Hive Mind.

Compare that to the combinations for Sneek Attack: you either have Show and Tell/Fatty, Sneak Attack/Fatty or Show and Tell/Sneak Attack. Even the latter is good because you get to cheat in Sneak Attack.

The deck has a more general line than Hive Mind and that's why Erwin prefers Sneek Attack over Hive Mind. Plus his name is Erwin Sneek, he really wanted to play Sneak Attack :wink:

[Trentemoller]

I worked on the deck with Erwin together (we both top 16ed) and I can address some of the upsides of Sneaky Show over Hive Mind:

Show and Tell into Emrakul is less powerful than it looks (Knight of the Reliquary makes this plan not very good, also if you do it on turn 2 on the draw your opponent can drop his 3rd land, play his 4th and Jace -> Bounce). It's a lot better with Progenitus. Sneak Attack works a lot better with Emrakul but is a lot worse with Progenitus (unless you have two).

You need either Show and Tell or Grim Monolith plus Hive Mind, making it a 3-card combo. Grim Monolith is horrible, one of the biggest reasons for me to play Sneaky Show was complete ignorance of Spell Snare which is the most played counter after Force of Will in Legacy. Grim Monolith and sometimes Lim Dul's Vault make your opponents have a lot less dead cards maindeck.

Having to rely on the attack step is a lot less vulnerable than it looks, relevant cards are Ensnaring Bridge, Peacekeeper (which felted me the win and in round to be honest), Orim's Chant and Humility (probably more) none of which are really legacy staples (Chant is obviously played a bit in TES and some ANT builds but hard to kick) although certainly not insignificant.

Playing less dead cards helps, having multiple enablers helps against counters (usually good matchups anyway) having multiple creatures sucks but it's less bad than with Hive Mind. Also Daze and Cursecatcher are not too good against Sneak and very good against Hive Mind, just like Spellstutter Spite.

I feel like Hive Mind is better against other combo decks and a bit better against very aggressive decks but Sneak Attack is better against the other decks which is a bigger part in the metagame. I feel like it's a good deck for the meta back then and I still think it's a great choice, I just don't enjoy playing the deck anymore so I don't think I will pick it up any time soon.

Greetings,
Jan van der Vegt

[Einherjer]

I understand the Spell-Snare argument and I totally agree.

But at the rest, I gotta admit I was often very disappointed by the creatures SneakAttack provided that I switched to HiveMInd. Ensnaring Bridge and CounterTop are staple decks in my meta - and against these HiveMind is far stronger - no doubt. Could you explain to me, why Spellstutter Sprite should be good? Ye she(it) may counter my Pact - but it doesnt counter the copy of the pact that leads to victory as far as I know....
I like the very positive MU i have against Dredge/Stoneblade and Maverick, whereas Tempo and UR Delver isnt as good - but same is for SneakAttack.
I think it mostly depents on gamestyle or stuff.

But we can agree that DreamHalls is the weakest? Haha

Greetings

[Water_Wizard]

I understand the Spell-Snare argument and I totally agree.

But at the rest, I gotta admit I was often very disappointed by the creatures SneakAttack provided that I switched to HiveMInd. Ensnaring Bridge and CounterTop are staple decks in my meta - and against these HiveMind is far stronger - no doubt. Could you explain to me, why Spellstutter Sprite should be good? Ye she(it) may counter my Pact - but it doesnt counter the copy of the pact that leads to victory as far as I know....
I like the very positive MU i have against Dredge/Stoneblade and Maverick, whereas Tempo and UR Delver isnt as good - but same is for SneakAttack.
I think it mostly depents on gamestyle or stuff.

But we can agree that DreamHalls is the weakest? Haha

Greetings

With Spellstutter, you counter your copy of the pact, your opponent's still goes on the stack and the Hive Mind does not duplicate your Spellstutter

[menace13]

Could you explain to me, why Spellstutter Sprite should be good? Ye she(it) may counter my Pact - but it doesnt counter the copy of the pact that leads to victory as far as I know Sprite counters the Pact copy that enables the win, why would it even bother countering your Pact.

[Water_Wizard]

I assume you mean interactions. It's not really all that different from UW stoneblade, the only thing to keep in mind is you can return punishing fire with swords to plowshares.

I actually went 4-2-1 with the deck, losing to storm and dredge. Our sideboard against those decks was slightly too weak because I expected more aggro and less combo. Despite that those matches were still really close and against storm I could have won if I played differently (He knew I had FoW and played dark ritual with one land untapped, so I figured he must have duress and rite of flame so I countered the ritual. He had pyroblast and could then win with infernal + led. If I wait there is no way I can lose :frown:).

Thanks for the response! Keep up the good videos - I especially enjoy the DFT/ANT/TES videos - I think those are some of the hardest decks to play and watching your videos really helps.

And I meant "interactions" not "reactions" - it was late last night. I love having my english corrected by a non-native english speaker (I assume) :wink:

[Water_Wizard]

@Water_Wizard, Erwin replied to your questions:

Even with Graveyard removal, they always get a Draw once they activate Grindstone.

Tell Erwin Thanks!

Could you explain this a little more?

[MattiasNL]

Thanks for the response! Keep up the good videos - I especially enjoy the DFT/ANT/TES videos - I think those are some of the hardest decks to play and watching your videos really helps.

And I meant "interactions" not "reactions" - it was late last night. I love having my english corrected by a non-native english speaker (I assume) :wink:

Glad you enjoyed them :) Yes I am dutch :smile:

A grindstone activation with painter out against sneaky show creates an infinite loop of progenituses (progeniti?) being milled and shuffled into the library resulting in a draw before the emrakul triggers even resolve.
Siding out progenitus can take away their ability to do this, but it's risky if you expect them to board in graveyard hate (which does deck you with the emrakul trigger on the stack).

[Water_Wizard]

Glad you enjoyed them :) Yes I am dutch :smile:

A grindstone activation with painter out against sneaky show creates an infinite loop of progenituses (progeniti?) being milled and shuffled into the library resulting in a draw before the emrakul triggers even resolve.
Siding out progenitus can take away their ability to do this, but it's risky if you expect them to board in graveyard hate (which does deck you with the emrakul trigger on the stack).

Ah, yes. Makes sense. I've only ever tested this matchup with just Emrakul (Hive Mind) and as Emrakuls went into my graveyard, triggers went onto the stack and then my graveyard shuffled back into my deck. I hadn't considered the interaction with Progeniti (I like that better than Progenituses). Thanks for the clarification!

[Skeggi]

Are the Top16 lists up yet?

No top16 lists, but here's the top8:

Stef Broeke - 1st-4th
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Forest
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Punishing Fire
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Savannah
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Taiga
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Batterskull
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction

Alexandre Darras - 1st/4th
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
2 Dismember
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction

Kasper Euser - 1st/4th
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Force of Will
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Vindicate
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Ponder
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Karakas

Sideboard
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Perish
2 Duress
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict

Jeroen Speelmans - 1st/4th
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Batterskull
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Serenity
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Life from the Loam

Wander Notting
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Stifle
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Daze
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Ponder
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Island

Sideboard
1 Preordain
1 Duress
1 Repeal
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Spell Pierce
3 Mind Harness
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Delver of Secrets
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ponder

Lennart Lindeman
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coloseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mind

Sideboard
4 Firestorm
3 Street Wraith
1 Dread Return
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Ichorid

Sabrina Kool
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire
2 Mirran Crusader

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ancient Grudge

Luke Broeke
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Scrubland
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

Sideboard
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Darkblast
2 Perish
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Duress
3 Spell Pierce

[fyrisen]

"I cast a turn 2 Show and Tell into Progenitus. He puts a Phyrexian Metamorph in play. I explain to him that he can’t use it to copy Progenitus, and we call for a judge so he can confirm it. I tell the judge that I told my opponent that he couldn’t copy Progenitus, before he tried to, so he did not get a warning. Cheers! He tries to resolve a Metalworker, but I counter it with a Daze. Two Strikes, he's out!"

What?

Other then that a good report!

[Merrin]

"I cast a turn 2 Show and Tell into Progenitus. He puts a Phyrexian Metamorph in play. I explain to him that he can’t use it to copy Progenitus, and we call for a judge so he can confirm it. I tell the judge that I told my opponent that he couldn’t copy Progenitus, before he tried to, so he did not get a warning. Cheers! He tries to resolve a Metalworker, but I counter it with a Daze. Two Strikes, he's out!"

What?

Other then that a good report!
Because the Progenitus (or Emrakul) enter play at the same time, the Clone won't be able to see it, so it can't copy it either.

As for the one earlier who asked about the UW-Stoneblade list with Punishing Fires: I've written a tourney-report of a very small tournament with the deck. www.teamadhd.nl