Starcity Games DC.

[Beatusnox]

So Starcity DC is over, and RDW has won the day. Top 16 Decks were definitely interesting to say the least.

3 Storm Decks
2 Reanimator
1 Elves
1 Aggro Loam
3 Bug Control
1 RDW
1 Lands
3 Delver RUG
1 Sneak attack/Show and Tell

Overall Seems to be a varied metagame, with Aggro, Control, and Combo well represented. Safe to say blue dominance is made up?

[Koby]

Safe to say blue dominance is made up?

No, I'd say it's a varied metagame dominated by the local varietials. Without knowing the entire tournament composition, it's hard to say what really happened or what was popular.

It is interesting to see more combo, and kind of weird to see so little Maverick. I keep wondering if inexperienced pilots are picking up the latter deck because it looks easy to to play (it's not) thinking the tutor SB plan works out (usually doesn't). Case in point was the GW/r Maverick pilot who boarded into NO/Pro against Reanimator.

BUG Control might have been a product of Levin's article goading people into that archetype?

The lands deck was an interesting meta-deck against the expected mid-range decks. Really interesting build.

[Einherjer]

Interesting metagame
but there are a few things I just dont understand
1)RDW? RedDeckWins? Whats this in Legacy? MonoR burn mit Goblin Guide usw?
2)Why is SneakShow keeping to set up so good results and HiveMind isnt - I still dont get it.

But yeah this meta looks like one Id like to play in, alot of all archetypes represented.

Greetings

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

People finally fucking realized Nimble Mongoose beats the living shit out of control decks. (And by that I mean the Hatfields and Calosso played it for one open, and people will forget about it by next weekend.)

[Beatusnox]

Interesting metagame
but there are a few things I just dont understand
1)RDW? RedDeckWins? Whats this in Legacy? MonoR burn mit Goblin Guide usw?
2)Why is SneakShow keeping to set up so good results and HiveMind isnt - I still dont get it.

But yeah this meta looks like one Id like to play in, alot of all archetypes represented.

Greetings

RDW is in my experience at least, Burn with Hellspark, and Figure of Destiny type creatures added to try to force as much damage as possible while still have some creature base.

[from Cairo]

Interesting metagame
but there are a few things I just dont understand
1)RDW? RedDeckWins? Whats this in Legacy? MonoR burn mit Goblin Guide usw?
2)Why is SneakShow keeping to set up so good results and HiveMind isnt - I still dont get it.

But yeah this meta looks like one Id like to play in, alot of all archetypes represented.

Greetings

The RDW deck ran Goblin Guide, Hellspark Elemental, Figure of Destiny, Keldon Merauders, and a bunch of 3pt burn, with Flame Rifts and Price of Progress.

Hive Mind doesn't strike me as being that poorly positioned right now. I guess lists can more easily pay off a Pact of the Titan than fight a Progenitus though. See: Delver RUG, Agro Loam, Punishing Maverick/lists w/ Birds. I suppose Spell Pierce, Stifle and Counterspell are more prevalent in the current meta than they were during the Mental Misstep era which means more splash damage against the Hive Mind archetype, but it still seems like it would be fast/resilient enough to fight through that, or that Sneak and Show/Show&Tell(/w Eureka) lists would be suffering from the same hate.

[lordofthepit]

At least one of the BUG control decks was a mislabeled B/G Pox deck.

[TheShaun]

The RDW deck ran Goblin Guide, Hellspark Elemental, Figure of Destiny, Keldon Merauders, and a bunch of 3pt burn, with Flame Rifts and Price of Progress.

Hive Mind doesn't strike me as being that poorly positioned right now. I guess lists can more easily pay off a Pact of the Titan than fight a Progenitus though. See: Delver RUG, Agro Loam, Punishing Maverick/lists w/ Birds. I suppose Spell Pierce, Stifle and Counterspell are more prevalent in the current meta than they were during the Mental Misstep era which means more splash damage against the Hive Mind archetype, but it still seems like it would be fast/resilient enough to fight through that, or that Sneak and Show/Show&Tell(/w Eureka) lists would be suffering from the same hate.

I think a big reason that Hive Mind has been a little down lately is the prevalence of so many Stifles in the R/U, RUG, and BUG Delver/Snapcaster lists. Stifle still hits Sneak/Show, but it is a far less drastic effect in that case.

[catmint]

3 BUG control is wrong.

1 is BG Pox (LOL @ starcitygames)
1 is Team America
1 is BUG control but with an interesting new appraoch

[Antonius]

that's not really lands. It's closer to BG loam control. Which is not nearly as fun.

[majikal]

that's not really lands. It's closer to BG loam control. Which is not nearly as fun.
There are 40 lands in that deck. How is it not lands?

[Finn]

The 3 storm decks are probably a bit higher than average due to a reaction to a blue-light meta from last week.

Round and round we go.

[makochman]

I accidentally the Standard Top 16 decklists. The color distribution there is hilarious. It's just like the worst days of Caw Blade again.

[Antonius]

There are 40 lands in that deck. How is it not lands?

the strategy is entirely different. David didn't even run tabernacle. there is no ghost quarter, rishadan port or other permanent locking mechanism. No Academy Ruins to combo with EE Smokestack and no Glacial Chasm. Lands is a prison deck with minimal removal (typically only EE). David Price's deck is a removal-fueled control deck.

[xfxf]

I've been defending that blue isn't overpowered and completely dominant in Legacy since MM ban discussions. I was saying that people were not playing enough "beats on blue" aggressive decks. Just a month ago lots of people were on the ban Brainstorm bandwagon. When Wizards didn't pay attention to the whiners people picked up on other non-blue decks and two consecutive SCG open are won by non-blue decks. The exact two decks (RDW and Maverick) I said people should be playing about 4 months ago in the "ban MM" thread.

I really hope that the trend continues and people start realizing it is not the cards which dominate metagames its the trends and hypes. Then, when someone starts calling for bans for no good reason we can point at the Brainstorm example and say "you just have to adapt".

[edgarps22]

I have been playing Nimble Mongoose for months on Cockatrice. It is REALLY good right now, because all the tempo decks can't handle it with their removal, and yours works just fine on their beaters. It is a good time for brewers, lots of tweaking, fun new deck ideas, and a good opportunity to try new things. Who knows maybe we have a few roge decks lying in wait out there.

[nedleeds]

So Starcity DC is over, and RDW has won the day. Top 16 Decks were definitely interesting to say the least.

3 Storm Decks
2 Reanimator
1 Elves
1 Aggro Loam
3 Bug Control
1 RDW
1 Lands
3 Delver RUG
1 Sneak attack/Show and Tell

Overall Seems to be a varied metagame, with Aggro, Control, and Combo well represented. Safe to say blue dominance is made up?

12 of 16 running the full 4 brainstorm seems pretty dominant to me. Less copies of SotF got it banned.

[xfxf]

12 of 16 running the full 4 brainstorm seems pretty dominant to me. Less copies of SotF got it banned.

Balanced between combo and control in a tournament won by MONO RED AGGRO. So what's your problem?

Most recent bannings are unjust and a result of abundance of whiners and blue haters. As long as all those 12 decks with brainstorm succumb to non-brainstorm decks in two-three consecutive tournaments I regard the continuing blue hate as only trolling.

Burn your brainstorms and dance on them if it'll make you feel better but there will always be a lot of people going for versatile decks as opposed to "to the point" decks with weaknesses. Get over it and try to figure out the best metagame beast if you want to win. Other people are enjoying the game.

[troopatroop]

12 of 16 running the full 4 brainstorm seems pretty dominant to me. Less copies of SotF got it banned.

God, why would you ever point this out? Also, Survival in function won many more games on its own...

[lordofthepit]

12 of 16 running the full 4 brainstorm seems pretty dominant to me. Less copies of SotF got it banned.

11 out of 16. More importantly, the penetrance of Brainstorm didn't increase in decks with improved performance (at least not this time).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've been defending that blue isn't overpowered and completely dominant in Legacy since MM ban discussions. I was saying that people were not playing enough "beats on blue" aggressive decks. Just a month ago lots of people were on the ban Brainstorm bandwagon. When Wizards didn't pay attention to the whiners people picked up on other non-blue decks and two consecutive SCG open are won by non-blue decks. The exact two decks (RDW and Maverick) I said people should be playing about 4 months ago in the "ban MM" thread.

I really hope that the trend continues and people start realizing it is not the cards which dominate metagames its the trends and hypes. Then, when someone starts calling for bans for no good reason we can point at the Brainstorm example and say "you just have to adapt".

Like most people that rely on anecdotal evidence, you seem to have a conclusion you're planning on reaching regardless of what reality says. Why, you've already decided that in any future case where the metagame becomes warped it's going to be because people aren't adapting!

People were saying Brainstorm was dominating because it was. There was scads of empirical data during the Summer, early fall and going back long before that that Brainstorm decks were running over everything not running the best card in the format. The apparent reversal of that trend based on recent results is startling and possibly revelatory, but can't be simply hand-waived with as neat an explanation as, "Oh, well people just decided to start trying to beat blue." That had certainly been a strategy long before this!

The explanation for this trend is somewhat ephemeral to me. It may be that Delver decks are cannibalistic; preying on other blue-based decks primarily and losing to non-blue decks running more removal. I'm not sure if that's really an adequate explanation though.

It could also be an anomaly. Brainstorm has been hardly absent from recent top 8s, and it moving from a position of dominance to mere strength could just be a blip in the long-term trend. A year ago goblins seemed like a good deck in the metagame again, but that turned out to be another aberration in between periods of blue dominance.


11 out of 16. More importantly, the penetrance of Brainstorm didn't increase in decks with improved performance (at least not this time).

This is more or less true. It went up slightly but less, for instance, than StP or SFM.

(Err, rather, counting the tournaments from the past two months the above is true.)


that's not really lands. It's closer to BG loam control. Which is much more fun.



ftfy

[lordofthepit]

This is more or less true. It went up slightly but less, for instance, than StP or SFM.

(Err, rather, counting the tournaments from the past two months the above is true.)


I agree that Brainstorm sees increasing penetrance in the top decks. However, we're talking something like 60-65% of the field playing Brainstorm decks -> 70-80% of the top 8/4/2/1.

Survival of the Fittest displayed ridiculous dominance. If I recall correctly, it made up 15% of the field in SCG tournaments, but roughly 50% of the top 16, 60% of the top 8, and 100% of the top 2. For five successive tournaments.

Mental Misstep was pretty similar to Brainstorm in that regard (probably better). Mystical Tutor didn't really match this pattern, but it got the axe for other reasons.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

The explanation for this trend is somewhat ephemeral to me. It may be that Delver decks are cannibalistic; preying on other blue-based decks primarily and losing to non-blue decks running more removal. I'm not sure if that's really an adequate explanation though.

It could also be an anomaly. Brainstorm has been hardly absent from recent top 8s, and it moving from a position of dominance to mere strength could just be a blip in the long-term trend. A year ago goblins seemed like a good deck in the metagame again, but that turned out to be another aberration in between periods of blue dominance.


It really wasn't that surprising, a lot of people on here have been saying for months how good Maverick is against blue. Then Gerry T started playing it in the Open Series and it took off here in the states.

[Beatusnox]

For those comparing survival to brainstorm. Didn't wizads say part of the reason survival got banned was that it severly limited design space?

[xfxf]

Like most people that rely on anecdotal evidence, you seem to have a conclusion you're planning on reaching regardless of what reality says. Why, you've already decided that in any future case where the metagame becomes warped it's going to be because people aren't adapting!


I'm not reaching out for a conclusion, I'm just re-stating my (and a handful of other blue players') previous point on the issue, backing it up with what is currently happening and saying "We told you so."

You can't say a card is dominating because it is overplayed. You can say it is dominating if it's supresses other decks and strategies. The period when Brainstorm supposedly dominated the metagame the card pool was exactly the same. By looking at the last two SCG opens anyone can safely say that Brainstorm decks aren't overpowered nor they are unbeatable nor they are the best decks in the field. They are good decks regardless. Yet you can beat them with the right tools and that's what blue haters like to ignore. Metagame can and probably will shift towards heavier blue because those decks are intrinsically more consistent and tunable. This consistency comes with a price of having narrow answers and being beaten by more focused decks. Which makes it fair in my opinion.

By the way to make it clear, I'm not a control player in Legacy anymore. I find it boring and lacking in character. I play combo and a nerfing in blue would help me even more but I'm defending it just because the blue hate in the format is unfound and simple minded.

[coraz86]

ftfy

Best thing I've seen all week. Thank you for this.

/tangent

[Finn]

It is possible that Wizards has already acknowledged that Brainstorm is both too powerful to allow to continue as it has and too [not sure what the right word here is - cool, important, intrinsic, etc] to Legacy to ban it. Thalia is about as good an anti-blue card as we have seen in awhile. But there is also recently Grand Abolisher and Wild Nacatl which are both clearly bad for blue, aggressively priced, and not realistically useable by blue decks themselves. This conversation may be a moot point in the long run.

[nedleeds]

Vengevine displayed ridiculous dominance. If I recall correctly, it made up 15% of the field in SCG tournaments, but roughly 50% of the top 16, 60% of the top 8, and 100% of the top 2. For five successive tournaments.


Fixed that. Well with all the scooping, cheating and other hijinks that permeate(d?) the SCG tourney back then who actually knows. Survival seems like a cheaters wet dream. Survial shouldn't have been banned, and has no place on the banned list now with Brainstorm still unbanned.

[troopatroop]

... and Wild Nacatl which are both clearly bad for blue, aggressively priced, and not realistically useable by blue decks themselves.

Wait til' someone finally wins the big tournament with Blue Zoo. Trop -> Nacatl is VERY underplayed, imo.

[nedleeds]

I play combo and a nerfing in blue would help me even more but I'm defending it just because the blue hate in the format is unfound and simple minded.

You don't play combo without Brainstorm. Unless you are talking about a deck like Charbelcher ... which certainly has none of the 'character' you speak about (whatever the fuck that means).

Not playing Brainstorm means handicapping your deck. It means having to keep mediocre hands, having no one mana fix for them and having only the top of your deck to rely on. It means your fetch lands aren't one shot Sylvan Libraries. It means you just have to eat discard to the face. It means mid game when top decking with your opponent; he's going to draw Brainstorm and see 3 more cards than you - probably finding gas of some kind to swing the game ...

I don't think Brainstorm being banned is the only answer I think other things should be unbanned to give the format a little breathing room and options.

- SotF
- Mind Twist
- Earthcraft

[dontbiteitholmes]

Fixed that. Well with all the scooping, cheating and other hijinks that permeate(d?) the SCG tourney back then who actually knows. Survival seems like a cheaters wet dream. Survial shouldn't have been banned, and has no place on the banned list now with Brainstorm still unbanned.

I agree with you that Survival was fine without Vengevine and that Vengevine probably should have been the card to get the axe, but with Vine in the format Survival was stronger than Brainstorm. An unanswered Survival could easily win the game within one or two turns.

Also to say that cheating had anything to do with the dominance of Survival is saying quite a lot. That would mean a good % of Legacy players from a year ago, most of whom still play, are cheaters. Even if 10% of the top 8's were cheaters in theory and you discount those Survival was still pretty dominant and the format was completely warped around it (I mean when it was legal if you couldn't beat Survival with your deck you might as well have just stayed home), and I seriously doubt 10% of those top 8's were the result of cheating since I don't remember anyone from that period ever coming under suspicion. Also a lot of the people who put up results with the deck are the usual suspects for Legacy top 8's who I would bet my collection aren't cheaters in any sense of the word.