Thorns & Taxes

[Mastikor]

Hey guys,

since Thalia was spolied I've been toying with the idea to create a deck around her and I'm sure I'm not the only. I'm a fan of annoying lockout/prison decks, and she definetly takes the whole thing to a new level. I decided to put her into a Death & Taxes shell, along with Glowriders and other friends to create a mono W prison aggro deck. I present you the list:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127171&stc=1&d=1326344441
4 Glowrider
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Aether Vial
3 Chrome Mox
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elbrus, the Binding Blade - new Stoneforge candy, let's give it a try...

8 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Ancient Tomb

The list is still in testing, so far I've had positive results with anything control and combo based, however I'm afraid aggro decks (Maverick, Zoo...) would crush me. The sideboard must therefor be somehow heavily anti-creature based, and first thing that came to my mind was Windborn Muse. Haven't test it yet though, might not be good enough. The problem is that the thorn-prison plan is very restrictive... anyway, here's the example of sideboard I'm testing:

4 Windborn Muse
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 ???

Any suggestions are welcome. I hope we can make this deck work, maybe not to be a DtB, but simply a fun option, suitable for control and combo heavy meta.

Also, you can vote for other cool deck names, I was thinking: Prison Break, Guardian, Thorned Prison, Glowing Thorns...

Enjoy:P

[catmint]

I like thalia very much.

However I think she is very bad with Thorns.
you surely want to cast her first and then the thorn costs more.

also the reason why she is good is because you DONT have to play a thorn!

I would try to join the death and taxes thread and discuss your ideas there!

[Finn]

The version you have here, basically is D+T, so yeah it is not going to get far on its own since you are mucking around with a deck that has been sharpened, tried, discussed, and sharpened some more for almost 6 years. But, I have always wanted to do what you are hinting at. Some thoughts:

The trick to using Glowriders, et al is going to be getting out in front. In other words, if your opponents can land their threats/engines before you can tax them, your cards become dead. You need a real prison manabase to make it happen, but then this starts looking either like a real prison deck or a crappy knock-off. This is why I have not pursued it.

Just the same, Windborn Muse and Ghostly Prison are nifty, as is that white enchantment that makes all activated abilities have a surcharge of 2 mana.

[Darkenslight]

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127171&stc=1&d=1326344441
4 Glowrider
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Aether Vial
3 Chrome Mox
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elbrus, the Binding Blade - new Stoneforge candy, let's give it a try...

8 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Ancient Tomb


From this list, I would cut out every single artifact, and Plow, and change it to this configuration:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Glowrider
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Mother of Runes
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Grand Abolisher
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Kataki, War's Wage

4 Suppression Field
4 Path to Exile

11 Plains
3 Karakas
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland

[Mastikor]

Thanks for replies.

@catmint: thorns are actually good and important addition to this deck, to maximize the prison/taxing plan. I think if you cut them it would weaken the whole strategy. Don't forget that it can be a turn 1 drop, using Tomb or Mox. And you should drop it before Thalia ofc.

@Finn: yeah, it is surely a D&T derivate, I'll post it in that topic as well, however it plays fairly different than the classic lists. I'm not sure if it's going anywhere, but I wanted to share my ideas so it can be upgraded... And yeah it might just end as a regular D&T with Thalia... anyway fell free to test it and post your results.

@Darkenslight: I'm sorry but I think your list is quite awful. Cutting Vials makes the deck too fuc*ing slow. Cutting Mystics is even worse, as they are your only real threat. Also it seems you've forgotten Mangaras. Oh, and why on earth yould you replace Swords with Paths when you clearly want to keep opponents off mana?

[Darkenslight]

@Darkenslight: I'm sorry but I think your list is quite awful. Cutting Vials makes the deck too fuc*ing slow. Cutting Mystics is even worse, as they are your only real threat. Also it seems you've forgotten Mangaras. Oh, and why on earth yould you replace Swords with Paths when you clearly want to keep opponents off mana?

Because you don't also want your beatdown plan to go to the wall because you had to send a Goyf farming. You remove Vial because of Kataki. And there's also the interaction between Ghost Quarter and Path.

An alternate list would probably play Hokori at the top-end. You don't necessarily need Mangara, though its interactions with Karakas are amusing.

I'm guessing that you also missed the Supression Fields main: my provisional list leans heavily on the tax plan to stall: whilst it isn't optimized (for example, it's missing Leonin Relic-Warder[/card] and [cards]Windborn Muse), it's an alternative starting point.

ETA: this deck is going to be highly meta-dependent. A starting sideboard would probably be:

4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Stonecloaker
4 Stony Silence
3 other meta slot.

[sillyandrew]

I don't understand...you can't even stack Thalia effects because she's legendary. a legendary thorn, that gets eaten by lightning bolt? I just don't see it...

[Antonius]

I have to agree with Mastikor. Darkenslight, your list is terrible. Aether vial is amazing because it makes your Wastelands and Rishadan Ports (which are already brutal with Thalia and Glowrider) extremely asymmetrical. SFM and equipment > suppression field. Suppression field is terrible. Have you even thought about its dis-synergy with Karakas, Wasteland, Ghostquarter, etc? 4x Kataki maindeck? What, are you playing in the Affinity-dominant metagame? With that and 4x thalia you're going to have so many hands full of dead crap that you don't have the benefit of Brainstorm + Shuffling away. Aven Mindcensor can be good, but can often be meh (and is even worse when you consider that you don't even have equips in there to abuse the flying) and Grand Abolisher feels redundant with moms.

@Mastikor:

I don't particularly like the DnT shell with Thalia. Nor do I like thorns. I think that you want 1-2 Jotun Grunts in there as your late game and Avengers. Thalia/Glowrider buys you time. Avengers and Grunts take full advantage of that time by beating your opponent to a pulp. I don't really like Chrome mox, but if you want to keep it, you could try to offset its card disadvantage by running Squadron Hawks.

[Mastikor]

Hi again!

This Sunday I piloted this deck to a 4th place at a 44-man tourney in Italy. I played with a slightly changed list (cutted Moxes and updated the sideboard):

"The Guardian"

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Glowrider
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Flickerwisp
2 Fiend Hunter

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Karakas
9 Plains

and sideboard:

4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

It was really funny when I was searching for Fiend Hunters before the start and people asked me if I'll be playing standard ;) I think I surprised quite a few people with Glowriders and Thorns as well, but they somehow didn't find it funny when they hit the table. Overall, I'm very happy with the decklist, but as said, it's really a metadeck.

And yes, Thorns are necessary. The effect stacks, so you really need 12 of them to maximize it... Once you (soft) lock him, your goal is to dominate the field with superior creatures and nice quantity of removal. It works really well against control and combo decks, and for creature-based decks you have a lot of sideboard cards.

My matchups were (4-1-1):

- U/R Delver (2:0)
- Maverick (1:1)
- Pox (2:1)
- tempo RUG (2:0)
- the Gate (1:2)
- ANT (2:1)

top8: Sneak Show (2:1)
semifinals: ANT (1:2) - he went off turn1 two times...

I encourage you to try this deck, it is really fun to play and has the potential to wreck some random meta.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Congrats on the finish!! We almost have a similar concept but i have a different approach than yours.

I wanted to ask you the following:
1. Have you considered cutting rishadan ports for a 4 a.tomb setup so you can power out your thorn on the 1st turn then power out vial 2nd turn. I've played staxx for a long time and i know how important to be able to tax your opponent early on a late taxing card is useless.

2. How good is the magnara in engine in your deck i can just assume that its so so to okay as mangara can really stay on the board bec of the mana tax.

3. Have you considered playing lodestone golem?

4. Is flickerwisp really that relevant in your build?

5. You have 11 3cc creature don't you find this too slow... ?

Have you tested this config before deciding to use your current build ?
Creatures [23]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Glowrider
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Lodestone golem

Spells [15]
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of body and mind
4 Swords to Plowshares

LANDS [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Karakas
9 Plains
2 Rishadan Port / plains


People say that my build is crap but based on my testing its performing well enough. Maybe we could work something out or streamed line our idea since we both have almost the same concept.

Well on to my build.
Lands [22]
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
2 plains
1 forest

Creatures [27]
4 mother of runes
3 noble hiearch
3 qasali pridemage
4 serra avenger
4 stoneforge mystic
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 knight of the reliquary
2 glowrider*

Spells [11]
4 aether vial
4 stp
1 sofi
1 solas
1 jitte

*it used to be mirran crusader as it could handle aggressive decks but i decided to have a different game plan vs fast decks like zoo.

[Mastikor]

1) No. Rishadan Ports are amazing and won me many games. But I understand that you want to play more Tombs because of Lodestone Golem. Turn1 Thorn is sweet, but I think in most matchups (except combo) turn1 Vial is actually better.

2) Mangara is strong. I would never cut it. Its is additional removal for everything (including lands!!) and it's interraction with Karakas is broken. You really need her.

3) No, but it does seem intersteing. However, it seem a bit too slow... thus probably not making the cut. 12 Thorns are enough, I think it's more important to include some resilience/adaption to creatures.

4) Flickerwisp is cute. You surely don't need 4 like classic DnT, but I found the two useful in every situation I got them. Protects your creatures, puts a pressure, sometimes gets rid of opposing blocker so you can swing with your equipped dude.

5) This is not an aggro deck. Sure it would be better if Glowriders were 2 mana, but I think it's okay as it is. And rememer, Vial is your best card in deck! Besides, your build runs 4cmc Golems in place of my 3cmc guys...

I tested this deck quite a bit, and honestly, I think that list is as close as it gets. It will always be a meta-deck, it's desgined to hose greedy decks, but will never be very strong against creature-based decks. That's why I decided to include Fiend Hunters, and they were amazing!

Concerning your second list: I think that's a completly different deck, and Glowriders have no place there. It's called Green&Taxes, it performs well...

[yadda]

Just so you know there is already a thread for exactly this strategy that has been around since before Thalia was printed.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15677-Deck-quot-Mono-White-Workshop-quot

this thread has focused on the stompy manabase intead of a more DnT style gameplan.