Is it safe to unban Oath of Druids now?

[death]

Reasons:
1. Spell Snare

2. Leyline of Sanctity

3. first turn Show and Tell into Emrakul or Hive Mind + Pact is more broken than a second turn Akroma or Razia(?)

4. Grafdigger's Cage

[Rizso]

Oath of Druids should never come of the ban list, it will ruin a healthy metagame.

[Greenpoe]

Wizards won't even unban Landtax. Why would they touch Oath?

[emidln]

I don't know how relevant it would be, but just consider this sequence:

turn 1) orchard, petal, oath, go
turn 2)

a) mill my entire deck.
b) flashback memory's journey returning LED, LED, LED
c) draw LED, play LED, break LED for UUU
d) flashback deep analysis to draw LED, LED, break for RRRBBB
e) flashback past in flames

All I'm saying is that by adding 4 Oath, 4 better rainbow lands over gemstone mine, 1 deep anal, 1 memory's journey, TES now gets an alternate game ending tutor and the most abusive sideboard plan ever known to Magic (nice hatebear/cb/etc, here's a never-ending supply of hasty Emrakul).
I'll take it.

[Wirrsturm]

I think it could be part of a balanced metagame if along with it the solomoxon/bazzar/library/tinker/mandrain/workshop were also unbanned...but i suspect then the ban brainstorm whinners really would have fuel for their fire.

[(nameless one)]

Why would you unban Oath if Survival of the Fittest is still considered dangerous?

[from Cairo]

Why would you unban Oath if Survival of the Fittest is still considered dangerous?

Laughably enough there was a time in Extended where Oath was legal and Survival of the Fittest was banned.

But yea Oath of Druids is nuts and should not be unbanned.

[Michael Keller]

I don't know how relevant it would be, but just consider this sequence:

turn 1) orchard, petal, oath, go
turn 2)

a) mill my entire deck.
b) flashback memory's journey returning LED, LED, LED
c) draw LED, play LED, break LED for UUU
d) flashback deep analysis to draw LED, LED, break for RRRBBB
e) flashback past in flames

All I'm saying is that by adding 4 Oath, 4 better rainbow lands over gemstone mine, 1 deep anal, 1 memory's journey, TES now gets an alternate game ending tutor and the most abusive sideboard plan ever known to Magic (nice hatebear/cb/etc, here's a never-ending supply of hasty Emrakul).
I'll take it.

I'm pretty sure emidln that a Wasteland would do some serious damage in this sequence. I mean, Oath is still a "may" effect, and I'm not defending the prospect of it becoming legal, but there are legitimate ways to disrupt it. Of course, the card is an incredibly overpowered enabler that combos by itself effectively. And in a format dictated primarily using the attack step, the card is just far too broken to ever come off that list.

[alderon666]

Turn 1, Lotus Petal, Forbidden Orchard, Oath, go
Turn 2, get Iona + Painter's Servant

GG? =D

[emidln]

I'm pretty sure emidln that a Wasteland would do some serious damage in this sequence. I mean, Oath is still a "may" effect, and I'm not defending the prospect of it becoming legal, but there are legitimate ways to disrupt it. Of course, the card is an incredibly overpowered enabler that combos by itself effectively. And in a format dictated primarily using the attack step, the card is just far too broken to ever come off that list.

You can still actually win with that sequence with a land or petal in hand (or drawn, you just delay a turn). Further a 2nd petal or a chrome mox in hand (allowing you to save petal) also beats Wasteland.

This is ignoring where you can still just storm them normally or side in fatty fatties and smash face. The sequence I presented can be disrupted. It's also pretty low-risk to non-blue decks. Further, if you morph the deck away from Ad Naus, you can safely run Oath->Fatty plan alongside a Past in Flames storm plan. This was just a naive example with minimal changes to an existing deck. A hybrid Past in Flames/Oath deck could choose between smashing face with Emrakul or storming you out. Interestingly, lists with lots of Infernal Tutor, you can also just IT->Oath vs aggro decks. Here's an oath, better draw your Pridemage.

[ReinVos]

Of course it's safe to unban Oath.

First of all, a dedicated Oath deck really needs an Oath in the opening hand. Even with four in the deck, you'll have less than 50% chance of finding one in your openener. By building a deck around one card you'll open yourself up to disruption like pointed discard. Not only that, Spell Snare is a major weapon in Legacy so resolving one will be quite difficult. If the opponent deals with the Oath you'll find yourself with bad cards in your hand and deck, simply because Oath of Druids is the only reason those bad cards are there in the first place.

Also, there are no real moxen in Legacy, which means you'll get one or two turns before Oath hits the table. If it does hit the table, you'll have another turn of trying to get rid of it. If you fail at doing either of those things, your deck isn't going to be good enough to compete anyway.

What makes Oath so scary that it's still banned while enablers of the same power level like LED and Entomb are legal? Remember it needs other cards to work, not to mention the symmetrical nature of Oath which will bite you in the ass occasionally.

Oh, before you're going to respond to this, yeah, I'm trollin'

[GGoober]

Even if Oath's power level is fair, it would still be banned for simple reasons: Legacy at the moment has a healthy presence of aggro, Oath would skew the presence of aggro and discourage decks to play creatures (since every creature you play is making Oath combo more consistent).

This is the main reason even if Oath is fair it would not be unbanned. It applies heavily in the principle of the health of the format.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Q: Is it safe to unban Oath of Druids now?

A: It is entirely unsafe and unwise to unban Oath of Druids in Legacy.

[Mr. Safety]

Necropotence then?

:tongue:

[Gheizen64]

Necropotence then?

:tongue:

I'm honestly torn on what would be worse for the format. Bargain is a much safer bet.

But it's useless to debate such things when tax twist and vise are still on that list. And earthcraft. Honestly.

[phonics]

Laughably enough there was a time in Extended where Oath was legal and Survival of the Fittest was banned.

But yea Oath of Druids is nuts and should not be unbanned.

I dont know when that was but fatties weren't as strong back then than now. Oath has the benefit of recent sets having creatures that are more powerful than ever.

[Leftconsin]

There are about 60 cards on the banned list I'd rather have come off before Oath.

[Meekrab]

I dont know when that was but fatties weren't as strong back then than now. Oath has the benefit of recent sets having creatures that are more powerful than ever.
Orchard hadn't been printed yet, IIRC. There were plenty of big monsters to Oath up, but it wasn't a self-enabling combo at the time.

[phonics]

Orchard hadn't been printed yet, IIRC. There were plenty of big monsters to Oath up, but it wasn't a self-enabling combo at the time.
That is true also. Although Verdant Force doesnt have the same umph as Emrakul, Terastodon, Blightsteel to name a few.

[death]

I wanted to start a healthy discussion but it didn't work out. Oath is worse than Land Tax, Survival, Necro and Bargain because the card needs a deck that is warped around it. Usuallly a one-trick pony, you shut down Oath and you shut down the player. Based on my experience in building Vintage decks, the Oath strategy is weak sauce compared to TPS and dredge.

If there are LED-based decks that exists now and win on turns 1-2, how come Oath is still scary? Survival is a different story because there are several variations of the deck that can be built, making each deck that runs the card more robust and virtually unstoppable. Same case with Necro/Bargain, as if Storm isn't broken as it is. Land Tax offers insane card advantage, 3 cards a turn will be too much against tempo which is currently rampant.

The example emidln gave is easily disruptible and I imagine a deck like that has to run a ton of crap cards which are ineffective by themselves without Oath in play. And with a shitload of removal available in legacy I couldn't imagine Oathed fatties being more dangerous than turn 1 entomb turn 2 Jin, Draw 7 ok?

[socialite]

I wanted to start a healthy discussion but it didn't work out. Oath is worse than Land Tax, Survival, Necro and Bargain because the card needs a deck that is warped around it. Usuallly a one-trick pony, you shut down Oath and you shut down the player. Based on my experience in building Vintage decks, the Oath strategy is weak sauce compared to TPS and dredge.

If there are LED-based decks that exists now and win on turns 1-2, how come Oath is still scary? Survival is a different story because there are several variations of the deck that can be built, making each deck that runs the card more robust and virtually unstoppable. Same case with Necro/Bargain, as if Storm isn't broken as it is. Land Tax offers insane card advantage, 3 cards a turn will be too much against tempo which is currently rampant.

The example emidln gave is easily disruptible and I imagine a deck like that has to run a ton of crap cards which are ineffective by themselves without Oath in play. And with a shitload of removal available in legacy I couldn't imagine Oathed fatties being more dangerous than turn 1 entomb turn 2 Jin, Draw 7 ok?

Based on my experience in building Vintage decks, no.

Edit: Well maybe.

Edit: No. It would still warp a metagame based around creatures i.e. Legacy.

[emidln]

I wanted to start a healthy discussion but it didn't work out. Oath is worse than Land Tax, Survival, Necro and Bargain because the card needs a deck that is warped around it. Usuallly a one-trick pony, you shut down Oath and you shut down the player. Based on my experience in building Vintage decks, the Oath strategy is weak sauce compared to TPS and dredge.

If there are LED-based decks that exists now and win on turns 1-2, how come Oath is still scary? Survival is a different story because there are several variations of the deck that can be built, making each deck that runs the card more robust and virtually unstoppable. Same case with Necro/Bargain, as if Storm isn't broken as it is. Land Tax offers insane card advantage, 3 cards a turn will be too much against tempo which is currently rampant.

The example emidln gave is easily disruptible and I imagine a deck like that has to run a ton of crap cards which are ineffective by themselves without Oath in play. And with a shitload of removal available in legacy I couldn't imagine Oathed fatties being more dangerous than turn 1 entomb turn 2 Jin, Draw 7 ok?

The danger isn't in a slightly more consistent LED combo deck (TES, ANT) or a deck that can put fatties into play on turn 2-3 (Reanimator). It's having a deck that does both while executing strategy switches fluidly as necessary.

Oath can put anything into play that Reanimator can without playing nearly so many shitty creatures, can make them hasty, can keep returning them if you deal with them, and actually gets to play better, more disruptive fatties like Emrakul. Further, against most decks in the format, Oath is a one card combo.

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't see how Oath would be safe to unban.

Oath in Legacy would almost certainly be UGx, probably Bant. Your win - the Oath combo - takes maybe 6-7 spell slots: 4 Oath, 1 Emrakul, 1 Progenitus, maybe 1 Iona. You might run Lotus Petal, though honestly I don't see that being that great since your cheap tutor options are limited in this format. You get to run cheap cantrips, a suite of free and cheap counters, possibly discard if you want to go four colors. The deck would be insanely good at protecting its combo because the combo is so compact. I mean, 4 Oath, 3-4 Enlightened Tutor, 4 Brainstorm, and some number of Ponder means you'll hit Oath early and often. You can run Spell Pierce to stop Nature's Claims and GSZs for Pridemage; you can run Spell Snare for opposing Oaths and harcast Pridemages; you can run Thoughtseize to grab answers out of the opponent's hand preemptively.

Oath would heavily warp the metagame around it. Decks like Maverick would have to retool themselves to support a high enough density of answers to Oath, and many aggro decks packing less natural disruption would be virtually invalidated overnight. Blue decks with the ability to answer Oath and execute some non-Oath game plan would have a metagame advantage versus anti-Oath decks, but honestly Oath seems very powerful even when a lot of aggro has been driven out of the format. Matches in Legacy are still driven primarily by creatures.

So no, I don't think Oath is safe to unban. If people are still bitching about Brainstorm, you can bet Oath is off the table.

[Dark Ritual]

Oath singlehandedly invalidates aggro as an archetype in legacy. If WotC unbans it in legacy they need to reevaluate their stance on a buttload of cards on the banlist because oath is ridiculously overpowered. Especially now that past in flames is in the mix I don't ever see oath coming off. I'd love to play oath storm but it won't ever happen in legacy. Oath is in the same boat as hermit druid as well; getting to fire off a trigger/activation of oath = GG's.

[Gheizen64]

I dont know when that was but fatties weren't as strong back then than now. Oath has the benefit of recent sets having creatures that are more powerful than ever.

That was old extended, circa Scourge era. Oath was a marginal deck a best. It didn't win via fatties, it did win with... Battlefield Scrounger. Yes, seriously, Battlefield Scrounger into Time Warp loop. It played also Horn of greed and a singleton capsize. This was when Tinker could tinker in Phyrexian Colossus at best, and maindecked Crumbling Sanctuary and Phyrexian Processor (well processor was actually good) and Upheaval.

I think the fatties of choice back then were Verdant Force, Iridescent Angel and Akroma had been just printed.

EDIT: thinking about it, how stupid are the new fatties? They basically never get hardcasted in any format and just make old cards retarded. I mean, Vengevine i can understand, Baneslayer Angel too, but cards like Progenitus? They can be casted only cheated in, they're basically "LOL i win" cards and nothing more. I doubt anyone hardcasted Blighsteel and Darksteel. 6 or 7 mana is pushing it for hardcasting even in decks with moxens and workshop. MUD maybe.
Cards like Iridescent Angel or Verdant were fatties that dictated the flow of the game, but weren't retarded. Spells really should just cost 7 or 8 at max, anything more is just begging to be broken by stupid interactions and never actually casted. I mean, what the most a competitive spell got played and harcasted? T&N i guess.
For creatures Titans and Broodmate were/are widely played in formats. Angel of Despair and Akroma, angel of Wrathsaw actual play in solar flare too, but it was one of the slowest Standard ever, with Ravnica bouncelands and lots of signets everywhere.

[clavio]

Turn 1, Lotus Petal, Forbidden Orchard, Oath, go
Turn 2, get Iona + Painter's Servant

GG? =D

No, because you will oath into your painter servants since they are creatures.

[menace13]

It would not be safe to unban it. Not only does it use less spell slots- 7 in total- than Sneak Attack-16-, Hive Mind-18+- and Reanimator-20+-, but the deck can play Jaces and a ton of disruption/cantrips to protect and find whatever it needs. Also it can be a sideboard plan for almost any combo deck. Dragon's Breath gives a one turn window to deal with Oath or lose.

[Solaran_X]

Reasons:
1. Spell Snare

2. Leyline of Sanctity

3. first turn Show and Tell into Emrakul or Hive Mind + Pact is more broken than a second turn Akroma or Razia(?)

4. Grafdigger's Cage
Turn 1) Forbidden Orchard, Mox (Chrome imprinting anything or Diamond tossing a land) or Lotus Petal, get 1G, cast Oath and opponent gets a 1/1 Spirit
Turn 2) Trigger Oath, flip Dragon Breath and then Blightsteel, Blightsteel comes into play and triggers Dragon Breath, swing with a 12/11 Haste Trample Infect for the win. Or Emrakul and entirely wipe their board while dealing 16 damage to them and ensuring they have no way to cast O-Ring next turn.

No thanks. I love Oath in Vintage, but keep it banned in Legacy.

[Richard Cheese]

Nah it's cool guys, we'll all just board 4x Greater Gargadon.

[dontbiteitholmes]

That was old extended, circa Scourge era. Oath was a marginal deck a best. It didn't win via fatties, it did win with... Battlefield Scrounger. Yes, seriously, Battlefield Scrounger into Time Warp loop. It played also Horn of greed and a singleton capsize. This was when Tinker could tinker in Phyrexian Colossus at best, and maindecked Crumbling Sanctuary and Phyrexian Processor (well processor was actually good) and Upheaval.

I think the fatties of choice back then were Verdant Force, Iridescent Angel and Akroma had been just printed.

EDIT: thinking about it, how stupid are the new fatties? They basically never get hardcasted in any format and just make old cards retarded. I mean, Vengevine i can understand, Baneslayer Angel too, but cards like Progenitus? They can be casted only cheated in, they're basically "LOL i win" cards and nothing more. I doubt anyone hardcasted Blighsteel and Darksteel. 6 or 7 mana is pushing it for hardcasting even in decks with moxens and workshop. MUD maybe.
Cards like Iridescent Angel or Verdant were fatties that dictated the flow of the game, but weren't retarded. Spells really should just cost 7 or 8 at max, anything more is just begging to be broken by stupid interactions and never actually casted. I mean, what the most a competitive spell got played and harcasted? T&N i guess.
For creatures Titans and Broodmate were/are widely played in formats. Angel of Despair and Akroma, angel of Wrathsaw actual play in solar flare too, but it was one of the slowest Standard ever, with Ravnica bouncelands and lots of signets everywhere.

In all fairness Emrakul has been hardcasted plenty of times, see Mono-Green Eldrazi in T2. Progenitus though? I wouldn't be a bit surprised if no one has ever hardcasted a Progenitus in an REL 2+ event.

[Bahamuth]

Aside from the strategy that emidln just described, the danger of Oath is not that it invalidates just all agrro, but also all aggro-control decks. Why would you run aggro-control if you can drop all your creatures and replace them with 4 Oath, 1 big guy and some cantrips? It's actually pretty similar to Flash. All you got to do is resolve a 2cc spell to win you the game.

[264505]

I doubt anyone hardcasted Blighsteel and Darksteel.

I've played Blightsteel in draft once, but most of the time i just cheat it into play with Forgemaster.

[DragoFireheart]

The problem with Oath is not so such Oath itself but the fact that one could easily stick Oath in some Countershell along with Show and Tell and make a deck that's makes it far too easy to get a 15/15 in play by turn 2-3.

[Freggle]

. I doubt anyone hardcasted Blighsteel and Darksteel.


I've played Blightsteel in draft once, but most of the time i just cheat it into play with Forgemaster.

I play a Shape Anew in Standard with splicers (like Blade Splicer), Timely Reinforcements, Day of Judgements in a control shell... and I hard cast Blightsteel Colossus all the time.

It’s just funny to have both a Wing Splicer and a Blightsteel Colossus in play at the same time given that Blightsteel is a Golem.

[death]

The problem with Oath is not so such Oath itself but the fact that one could easily stick Oath in some Countershell along with Show and Tell and make a deck that's makes it far too easy to get a 15/15 in play by turn 2-3.

Easy or not, there are already decks out there that are capable of winning on turn 2-3 with or without Emrakul just as easy. How about a turn 2 Sneak Attack? Turn 2 Painter? Iona on turn 2? I mean Oath is not the only deck that invalidates aggro strategies, just sayin'

Well I guess a turn 1-2 Charbelcher/Grapeshot is more acceptable. *shrug*

[lorddotm]

Well I guess a turn 1 Grapeshot is more acceptable. *shrug*

That is more acceptable than anything in Magic.

[Tao]

Razia and Akroma? This is not 2003. Emrakul is a better choice. In Vintage a chain of Rune Scarred Demons is also popular but how it would exactly be optimized in Legacy is not important, there are many possibilites, Emrakul being the easiest. What is important is that it would be multiple times better than Razia and Akroma.

The first problem and major with Oath is that it is a Combo that requires the Combo player to play very few Combo cards. Basically just 4 Oaths and 3 creatures. Orchard is an okay land and it isn't even needed in 2/3 of the matchups. This leaves a ton of room for draw and protection, far more than any other Combo deck so Oath can easily find solutions to the suggested hate cards. Look what jank Reanimator which tries a similar thing has to play: Eight creatures, four Exhume, four Reanimate, three Animate Dead. That are 19 dead cards plus four bad cards in Careful Study. This gives Oath four full playsets additional search, protection and disruption compared to an already existing Deck to Beat.

The second problem is that despite its resiiance Oath can be as brutal as Belcher in terms of speed if you get the right hand. You could argue if Oath actually wants Lotus Petals but if someone decides he wants them then he will certainly score a good number of turn 1 kills, some with FoW backup.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Easy or not, there are already decks out there that are capable of winning on turn 2-3 with or without Emrakul just as easy. How about a turn 2 Sneak Attack? Turn 2 Painter? Iona on turn 2? I mean Oath is not the only deck that invalidates aggro strategies, just sayin'

Well I guess a turn 1-2 Charbelcher/Grapeshot is more acceptable. *shrug*

Are you trolling or did you not notice that most of the "TURN 2" combos you listed up there cost upwards of 5 mana. The one that breaks that mold is Reanimator that costs 2-3 mana and requires about 10 reanimation spells and 8+ discard outlets to operate correctly.

Oath might as well say "If your opponent controls a creature during your upkeep you win the game" . The "enabler" is a land that produces rainbow mana for the cost of giving your opponent 1/1s in a deck that typically plans on winning either in one swing or with a 15/15 annihilator. Oath basically takes 5-6 slots in a deck and costs 2 mana unless you count replacing 4 lands in your deck with rainbow lands as taking up slots.

[betterthenandrew]

Easy or not, there are already decks out there that are capable of winning on turn 2-3 with or without Emrakul just as easy. How about a turn 2 Sneak Attack? Turn 2 Painter? Iona on turn 2? I mean Oath is not the only deck that invalidates aggro strategies, just sayin'

Well I guess a turn 1-2 Charbelcher/Grapeshot is more acceptable. *shrug*

This has to be trolling. Oath costs 2 mana and requires 1 or 2 fatties in the deck while Sneak Attack requires 5 mana and a fattie in hand, AND that still can just die to no disruption from the opponent (have seen someone shoot their load t2 to Emrakul the opponent, shuffle back in the emrakul and never draw another fattie or lose their red source).
People bitch about Show and Tell, which costs 1 more, and is symetrical (can randomly lose to O Ring, sower etc), AND requires you to have drawn the second combo piece.

[Kich867]

And requires you to have drawn the second combo piece.

^ This is pretty much why the card shouldn't be unbanned. The simple fact that you don't actually need to draw the other portion of the combo inherently makes this too powerful. It will never be symmetrical and it requires nothing but the 2 mana putting it in play in order to win.

Put it in a bant shell. Now you have tutors, protection package, ways to get it out of the graveyard if shit hits the fan, etc.

It'd be way too good. I'd almost be more OK with it if it read "If your opponent has more creatures than you at the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a creature from your hand into play." At least then you'd have some other thing that you need to have in your hand already.

[betterthenandrew]

^ This is pretty much why the card shouldn't be unbanned. The simple fact that you don't actually need to draw the other portion of the combo inherently makes this too powerful. It will never be symmetrical and it requires nothing but the 2 mana putting it in play in order to win.

Put it in a bant shell. Now you have tutors, protection package, ways to get it out of the graveyard if shit hits the fan, etc.

It'd be way too good. I'd almost be more OK with it if it read "If your opponent has more creatures than you at the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a creature from your hand into play." At least then you'd have some other thing that you need to have in your hand already.
In the event it where unbanned you would have to draw both parts of the combo because pretty much all decks that currently rely on creatures would become completely unplayable.

[Sloshthedark]

It's definitely not, but I'd love that :smile:

just unban survival instead

[Technics]

That was old extended, circa Scourge era. Oath was a marginal deck a best. It didn't win via fatties, it did win with... Battlefield Scrounger. Yes, seriously, Battlefield Scrounger into Time Warp loop. It played also Horn of greed and a singleton capsize. This was when Tinker could tinker in Phyrexian Colossus at best, and maindecked Crumbling Sanctuary and Phyrexian Processor (well processor was actually good) and Upheaval.

I think the fatties of choice back then were Verdant Force, Iridescent Angel and Akroma had been just printed.

EDIT: thinking about it, how stupid are the new fatties? They basically never get hardcasted in any format and just make old cards retarded. I mean, Vengevine i can understand, Baneslayer Angel too, but cards like Progenitus? They can be casted only cheated in, they're basically "LOL i win" cards and nothing more. I doubt anyone hardcasted Blighsteel and Darksteel. 6 or 7 mana is pushing it for hardcasting even in decks with moxens and workshop. MUD maybe.
Cards like Iridescent Angel or Verdant were fatties that dictated the flow of the game, but weren't retarded. Spells really should just cost 7 or 8 at max, anything more is just begging to be broken by stupid interactions and never actually casted. I mean, what the most a competitive spell got played and harcasted? T&N i guess.
For creatures Titans and Broodmate were/are widely played in formats. Angel of Despair and Akroma, angel of Wrathsaw actual play in solar flare too, but it was one of the slowest Standard ever, with Ravnica bouncelands and lots of signets everywhere.

This is the list it used to run...


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
6 [ISD] Forest (1)
13 [ISD] Island (1)
4 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard

// Creatures
2 [JU] Battlefield Scrounger

// Spells
4 [DD2] Counterspell
4 [US] Exploration
4 [DD2] Gush
4 [M12] Mana Leak
3 [OD] Moment's Peace
4 [EX] Oath of Druids
1 [US] Rescind
2 [TE] Scroll Rack
2 [MM] Thwart
3 [M10] Time Warp
4 [SH] Horn of Greed





Saying Oath wasn't broken back then is like saying storm combo wasn't broken before storm cards. Things have changed...

[Strawberry Dwarf]

IMHO, unbanning Oath of Druis or Land Tax wouldn't cause immediate collapse of Legacy to the same degree as Flash did, but it would be unwise still.

The problem is both these cards cheat opponent who plays normal Magic: plays lands and taps them to cast creatures.

For experimental and casual deckbuilders there are more balanced replacements for OoD, e.g. Natural Order or Proteus Staff.

[Final Fortune]

Troll thread is fail; removing aggro from the metagame would just turn Legacy into Vintage light, if at any point turning creatures sidewise becomes an ineffective strategy in Legacy you may as well shelve the format.

[bruizar]

IMHO, unbanning Oath of Druis or Land Tax wouldn't cause immediate collapse of Legacy to the same degree as Flash did, but it would be unwise still.

The problem is both these cards cheat opponent who plays normal Magic: plays lands and taps them to cast creatures.

For experimental and casual deckbuilders there are more balanced replacements for OoD, e.g. Natural Order or Proteus Staff.
Defense of the Heart is a fair Oath of Druids. I tried it with Beast Within, Forbidden Orchard, Moat/Ensnaring Bridge/Solitary Confinement, etc but couldn't make it work. Perhaps it could be used as an extra kill in enchantress?



Troll thread is fail; removing aggro from the metagame would just turn Legacy into Vintage light, if at any point turning creatures sidewise becomes an ineffective strategy in Legacy you may as well shelve the format.

You do know that in vintage, oath is dead and hard-casted creatures are rampant atm?

[menace13]

You do know that in vintage, oath is dead and hard-casted creatures are rampant atm?
Actually, Oath is doing very well right now(Dec-Jan).

[dontbiteitholmes]

Defense of the Heart is a fair Oath of Druids. I tried it with Beast Within, Forbidden Orchard, Moat/Ensnaring Bridge/Solitary Confinement, etc but couldn't make it work. Perhaps it could be used as an extra kill in enchantress?




You do know that in vintage, oath is dead and hard-casted creatures are rampant atm?

Not really. Oath is still a tier deck as of Thursday, but if that holds now post Cage we'll have to wait and see.

[zulander]

Land Tax is a terrible card and is safe to unban.

Oath of Druids is a ridiculous card and would not be safe to unban.

[Octopusman]

Cage is not that bad of a speed bump for Oath with Misstep and Steel Sabotage.

Funny that this thread is still going imo.

I totally disagree that land tax is a terrible card. I would love it if they unbanned it so we could show some straight control some love.

[Strawberry Dwarf]

Land Tax is a terrible card and is safe to unban.

Oath of Druids is a ridiculous card and would not be safe to unban.

I would rather see Oath than Land Tax.

Oath requires a deck built around it and some skill, it contains a random factor too. Land Tax is stupid itself, it just makes crappy decks better, it would become autoinclude in every deck with white. Its effect is asymmetrical and unhealthy, it rewards avoiding playing lands. We would see posts like "You should splash white and play Land Tax" everywhere. Deck thinning effect from fetchlands is negligible compared to Land Tax. Just imagine Mox Diamonds and Zuran Orbs everywhere. Unfun.

[lordofthepit]

Oath requires a deck built around it and some skill, it contains a random factor too.

So did Flash. Well, comboing out with Flash actually required more skill than flipping over cards with Oath of Druids.


Land Tax is stupid itself, it just makes crappy decks better, it would become autoinclude in every deck with white. Its effect is asymetrical and unhealthy, it rewards avoiding playing lands. We would see posts like "You should splash white and play Land Tax" everywhere. Deck thinning effect from fetchlands is negligible compared to Land Tax. Just imagine Mox Diamonds and Zuran Orbs everywhere. Unfun.

You would pretty much have to avoid playing fetchlands or dual lands to make use of Land Tax, as well as slowing down your tempo so that you can slowly thin out your library while not affecting board position whatsoever. I hope you have something to make use of all those lands in your hand besides Scroll Rack, since all the good options (Brainstorm, Seismic Assault) require a commitment to another color.

I have no doubt that Land Tax would see some play in a semi-competitive deck. It would not crack the top 10 most played white cards in the format, let alone be splashed for.

[Awaclus]

Its effect is asymetrical and unhealthy, it rewards avoiding playing lands. We would see posts like "You should splash white and play Land Tax" everywhere. Deck thinning effect from fetchlands is negligible compared to Land Tax. Just imagine Mox Diamonds and Zuran Orbs everywhere. Unfun.
Oath's effect is asymmetrical and unhealthy, it rewards avoiding playing creatures. We would see posts like "You should splash green and play Oath" everywhere. Deck thinning effect from fetchlands is negligible compared to Oath. Just imagine Mox Diamonds and Forbidden Orchards everywhere. Unfun.

A while ago, there was a MWS tournament with the Legacy banlist but with Land Tax unbanned in MTGS. Okay, the entire Legacy was different back then, but not many people even ended up running Land Tax.

[Hanni]

Unban both and then reban both if they warp the format. Spice things up ;)

[rxavage]

Unban both and then reban both if they warp the format. Spice things up ;)


Would Oath-Tax be a thing?

[Strawberry Dwarf]

Oath's effect is asymmetrical ...
Not true. Any player can activate Oath if he/she controls less creatures than target opponent.


We would see posts like "You should splash green and play Oath" everywhere.
No. We would see posts like "You should play Spawning Pit/Goblin Bombardment in sideboard".


Deck thinning effect from fetchlands is negligible compared to Oath. Just imagine Mox Diamonds and Forbidden Orchards everywhere. Unfun.
:eyebrow:
No, seriously, I don't like the idea to unban Oath. Pretty degenerate decks would appear. But it is still lesser evil than Land Tax, because Land Tax would become a-must-include-in-every-deck card and people would soon invent some way how to abuse it (Psychatog, Squandered Resources, Solitary Confinement, Nantuko Cultivator, Trade Routes, Seismic Assault).


A while ago, there was a MWS tournament with the Legacy banlist but with Land Tax unbanned in MTGS. Okay, the entire Legacy was different back then, but not many people even ended up running Land Tax.
It was one event and people were lazy. Perhaps many didn't even realize when they chose and tuned their decks. With Land Tax unbanned, competitive Legacy would degenerate. It might take several months, but the result would be terrible.

[Strawberry Dwarf]

Btw, guess which current decks would gain greatest benefit from Land Tax.

(Those with low land count: Belcher and TES/ANT)

[nedleeds]

Let's unban Channel first. Think about the time you'll have in between rounds to go eat and smoke!

[Hanni]

What current deck would gain the grratest benefit from Land Tax? It's funny that you mention that. U/W Tempo would be the winner there. That deck is already built around abusing Wayfarer, except Land Tax is way better than Wayfarer.

I'm thinking some Scroll Racks and Brainstorms with Squadron Hawk and Land Tax would be nice. Mox Diamonds and either Chrome Mox or Vials to cheat on mana wouldn't be bad. Daze and Fathom Seer have some great synergy with Land Tax too. I wonder if the deck couldn't somehow find a way to run Jace. Highly doubt the deck would break the format, but it does sound like it would be fun to brew at least.

[Aggro_zombies]

What current deck would gain the grratest benefit from Land Tax? It's funny that you mention that. U/W Tempo would be the winner there. That deck is already built around abusing Wayfarer, except Land Tax is way better than Wayfarer.

I'm thinking some Scroll Racks and Brainstorms with Squadron Hawk and Land Tax would be nice. Mox Diamonds and either Chrome Mox or Vials to cheat on mana wouldn't be bad. Daze and Fathom Seer have some great synergy with Land Tax too. I wonder if the deck couldn't somehow find a way to run Jace. Highly doubt the deck would break the format, but it does sound like it would be fun to brew at least.
Wayfarer can chain Wastelands and Land Tax can't, though. Only being able to find basic lands really restricts the card.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah UW Tempo would benefit greatly from tax, with mighty quinn being a close second/mono white control.

Oath is a symmetrical card when it's played as it was designed to be played. However, oath decks typically run 2 creatures that can't be hardcast and lots of spells. Unless you beast within or somehow give the opponent creatures, but even then you yourself can't attack because the oath player would chump block with their creatures all day long to be able to resolve an oath trigger. Oath is much more degenerate than land tax, it invalidates aggro as an archetype when the oath player see's their opponent go turn 1 mom, nacatl, green sun's zenith, etc. etc. they are going to smile when they go enlightened tutor into oath of druids on turn 2 and turn 3 emrakul/blightsteel/gigantic fatty boom boom that I'm going to kill you with.

Also, land tax would have to be run in every deck if it were legal? The card isn't even that good outside control mirrors and are you saying storm combo would run the card because I beg to disagree with that sentiment. Combo decks could not utilize land tax to any sort of potential, I know I would hate to draw land tax off the top as well when I'm praying for something to be able to combo out. The best use for tax is solely as a shuffle effect for brainstorm, and a very subpar shuffle effect at that.

[kusumoto]

What current deck would gain the grratest benefit from Land Tax? It's funny that you mention that. U/W Tempo would be the winner there. That deck is already built around abusing Wayfarer, except Land Tax is way better than Wayfarer.

I'm thinking some Scroll Racks and Brainstorms with Squadron Hawk and Land Tax would be nice. Mox Diamonds and either Chrome Mox or Vials to cheat on mana wouldn't be bad. Daze and Fathom Seer have some great synergy with Land Tax too. I wonder if the deck couldn't somehow find a way to run Jace. Highly doubt the deck would break the format, but it does sound like it would be fun to brew at least.

To be fair to Wayfarer, he can get nonbasics.

edit: wow two posts in the time it took me to say that. I guess I am just too slow

[edgewalker]

That's kinda why land tax isn't that great...yes it's "essentially" an ancestral recall every turn (with restrictions obviously) the problem is your deck is filled with basic lands (probably plains) to abuse said ancestral recall. Yes, you are drawing 3 cards a turn...but they're some of the worst cards in the format. Sure, it's "overpowered" with scroll rack, but it's one of the weaker two card combos. (I'd rather play counterbalance/top than tax/rack) The problem is everyone has a boner for reduction, "ZOMG it's 3 cards a turn, sooooo borken!!!!!!" and they fail to look at the amount of hoops you have to jump through to achieve 3 basic lands a turn...


Oh, and keep oath banned, the creatures are better now

EDIT: I would argue that JTMS is stronger than the tax/rack combo, and people arn't screaming for Jace to be banned (in legacy...oh cawblade standard)

[routlaw]

Oath is exceedingly degenerate asymmetrical hoser that is invalidates creature strategies. Current Dragon's Breath Emrakul/Rune Scarred Demon tech just make the whole thing even more awful.

There are only a handful of non-Unlimited cards that would be worse for the format (mostly cards that would enable a Legacy TPS deck) than Oath.

[Hanni]

I've had Sneak and Show decks drop Emrakul on me on turn 2 plenty of times. Oath is obviously stronger than Show and Tell, but is it significantly stronger to the point where it would warp the format where Show and Tell does not?

[Aggro_zombies]

I've had Sneak and Show decks drop Emrakul on me on turn 2 plenty of times. Oath is obviously stronger than Show and Tell, but is it significantly stronger to the point where it would warp the format where Show and Tell does not?
Yes, because Oath of Druids is effectively a 1.5 card combo.

Show and Tell requires you have both Show and Tell and a card to show your opponent (and tell him about it). That means you need to load up both on SnTs and stuff to SnT in, which eats up a lot of slots in your deck with cards of which you really only want to ever see one. Oath, by contrast, needs itself and the opponent having a creature, and it's not picky how they get that creature - which means an aggro deck's game plan of putting guys into play and then turning them sideways naturally enables your one-card Emrakul Making Machine. But in case the opponent isn't so obliging, you can run a land (so, see, no spell slots are taken) and maybe some Beast Withins if you want to go deep. Then the rest of your deck is dig and protection and control cards and bam, you have a deck that is very difficult to answer barring luck.

So yeah, Oath is on a whole 'nother level above Show and Tell.

[routlaw]

Show and Tell runs the high risk of:

- you just plopping in a Knight and then untapping and getting Karakas
- playing it on turn 2 on the draw, opponent puts in an extra land drop then resolves Jace
- You play Progenitus, they put in a Batterskull and race you.
- Liliana, Innocent Blood, any sorcery-speed edict effects wreck you.
- Vendilion Clique resolves with S&T on the stack.

Dragon's Breath Emrakul:

- Emrakul attacks that turn and likely ends the game.
- Even if they have Diabolic Edict, he shuffles right back in for another attempt next turn.
- Only one card needed against creature decks instead of the two when using Show and Tell.
- Also, four Brainstorms.

Hasted Emrakul is immune to most forms of interaction, unlike Show and Tell'd Emrakul. Even Sneak Attack isn't that bad since sometimes (like with Lingering Souls) you can generate enough permanents that you can occasionally function through a Emrakul assault since you only have to get through it in one turn. Dragon's Breath+Emrakul just keeps coming for you.

Also, Show and Tell is a blue ritual that also doubles as a Duress and is easily at or near the top of the Legacy list of busted cards. It's still way more fair than Oath.

[Hanni]

So what you are saying is that Maverick decks adjust by playing 4 Qasali maindeck and run some number of Aven Mindcensors, which isn't too much different from how they are built now, with additional hate cards in the sideboard.

Control decks can go back to running Predict to nullify E Tutor while providing great draw.

You guys listed why Oath is stronger than Show and Tell, and I don't disagree. I was just trying to see a case being made for how Oath would warp the format, make aggro totally unplayable, etc

[Aggro_zombies]

So what you are saying is that Maverick decks adjust by playing 4 Qasali maindeck and run some number of Aven Mindcensors, which isn't too much different from how they are built now, with additional hate cards in the sideboard.

Control decks can go back to running Predict to nullify E Tutor while providing great draw.

You guys listed why Oath is stronger than Show and Tell, and I don't disagree. I was just trying to see a case being made for how Oath would warp the format, make aggro totally unplayable, etc
It wouldn't make aggro totally unplayable in the same way Flash didn't make aggro totally unplayable. The problem is that every deck would either have a solid Oath plan or need a solid Oath plan because Oath is such a monster. I mean, it's running Brainstorm, probably Ponder, Enlightened Tutor, and four Oath, so even without the ability to search it can probably find an Oath more consistently than a SnT deck can find SnT.

The meta would probably reach an equilibrium at some point, but where that lies and how much dedicated Oath hate each deck would need is anyone's guess.

[routlaw]

Speaking as someone who has played a lot of Vintage Fish decks since Pridemage was printed, it's really not enough vs. a blue-based Oath deck vs. GW. You basically have to have blue disruption in your deck or autolose G1 and then sideboard garbage like Grafdigger's Cage or Nature's Claim in.

One key point-one that was made in a much more eloquent form in Carsten Kotter's "Rise of the Linears" article on SCG a few weeks ago-is that when you permit exceedingly strong and narrow linear strategies they become really hard to effectively interact with outside of very specific cards. Print too many in the format and you'll get spread too thin and have many more completely non-interactive matches of Magic, which would be ruinous to the format's overall health.

[Technics]

So what you are saying is that Maverick decks adjust by playing 4 Qasali maindeck and run some number of Aven Mindcensors, which isn't too much different from how they are built now, with additional hate cards in the sideboard.

Control decks can go back to running Predict to nullify E Tutor while providing great draw.

You guys listed why Oath is stronger than Show and Tell, and I don't disagree. I was just trying to see a case being made for how Oath would warp the format, make aggro totally unplayable, etc

Aven doesn't stop Oath... :-(

[Aggro_zombies]

Aven doesn't stop Oath... :-(
It stops Enlightened Tutor for Oath. However, it's probably too slow for that, assuming you are running 4-8 cantrips on top of the Tutors.

[Oiolosse]

Just brew the most busted Oath deck you can fathom while still remaining Legacy legal and you'll see quickly why it will never be unbanned.

[Anusien]

You know how nowadays you don't just straight-up lose to Stoneforge Mystic decks when they resolve the namesake card on turn 2 because you can bolt the Stoneforge? And even if they resolve a Batterskull, you can race with a good enough draw? Imagine that Stoneforge Mystic can't be Bolted or Plowed, and instead of putting a 4/4 Lifelinking Vigilance onto the battlefield, it puts Emrakul. Oh and Emrakul has haste. (Sure, you can Nature's Claim the Oath, but which are you inclined to run more of: Swords to Plowshares or Nature's Claim?)

Also, it probably runs Counterbalance/Top to beat all the removal and counters in the world, and it runs Oblivion Ring to answer all your silly Grafdigger's Cages and things. As well as Show and Tell, because why the hell not.

The deck probably doesn't even run Enlightened Tutor; it probably doesn't need it.

Remember that it's not just 4 Oath of Druids, 56 blanks. Those other cards do stuff. They probably do more than your cards, because they're blue and you're running Mother of Runes.

Sure, you could play Predict to beat Flash's Mystical Tutors. But oh yeah, it had more live cards than you did because instead of having to play like 20 creatures and a bunch of lands, it could just run more counters and more draw.

Or you know. Game 1 you're playing against combo. Game 2 you sideboard in Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Orim's Chant and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. And the opponent plays a turn 2 Oath of Druids and kills you turn 3 with Emrakul.

Edit: Don't forget most of the cards you're relying on lose to some combination of Stifle, Oblivion Ring or Counterbalance. And Oath can actually fit all these cards; you gain a ton of slots when you no longer have to run jank like Swords to Plowshares or long-game cards (because you have the best long-game in the format). AND Oath's manabase is actually quite resistant to being Wasted off a color because it has these 4 gold lands.

Second Edit: Aggro_zombies correctly notes the existence of Beast Within which is even BETTER than Oblivion Ring because it can also kill Karakas, and it can get rid of a Pridemage and still leave them a creature. Plus it's green.

Third Edit: I can't speak to Sneak and Show that much, but I can speak to Reanimator. It has to run a ton of cards that are either card neutral or card disadvantageous (Careful Study, Entomb, etc). Reanimator has to win early or it has serious trouble winning. Once the other blue decks start filling up their hand with counters, Reanimator has a hard time matching that advantage. Oath only has to run something like 4 cards that are dead. The rest of its cards are really good. While it can win on turn 3, it doesn't have to. Show and Tell is just as happy sitting back behind a Counterbalance or a Moat or a wall of counters and winning on turn 5. It is like High Tide in that it gets better the later the game goes on, rather than worse like Reanimator and ANT.

Fourth Edit (Because apparently I find the topic fascinating): You don't have to think about Oath in the context of a dedicated Oath deck (the way Show and Tell/Emrakul or Painter Servant/Grindstone can fit into so many cores). Imagine if you put the plan into Hive Mind (giving it an alternate plan that dodges most of the hate) or UW Thopters. Turn 2 Oath gets destroyed so it turns out a turn 4 Moat? What about just putting Oath in Reanimator to avoid graveyard hate?

If all you want to do is battle UGx combo-control decks against each other (and I do, believe me), then Oath of Druids creates an interesting and possibly even strategically deep metagame. But it's going to make a lot of strategies unviable. There was interesting metagame evolution during the Survival era and the Flash era. You could re-position your deck to better fight the mirror while still destroying everyone else (BGW Survival versus UG Survival, CounterTop in Flash, etc). But you're probably not going to be able to durdle around casting Life from the Loam on turn 2 anymore.

[Strawberry Dwarf]

I don't know where I got wrong in understanding the rules or perhaps some people don't bother to read cards correctly (?), but to my current knowledge, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn gets timewalk haste only when hardcasted. :really: Oath cheats him into play, so this is not the case here.

Likely scenario of play:

turn 1: Orchard go, /except land, opponent is doing nothing/ ...
... opp EOT: Enlightened Tutor for Oath

turn 2: Draw Oath, play land, cast Oath, go, /opponent has 2 tokens, puts land, attacks for 2 and othervise he is doing nothing -> Wow, Legacy!/

turn 3: Activate Oath, put Emrakul into play, go, /opponent grins, puts a land and then plays his most broken threat: 2/2 Pearled Unicorn vanilla for :2::w:! (In Legacy measures: He is doing nothing.)/

turn 4: Activate Oath, put your secondary beast into play (Sphinx, Akroma, Iona, Blightsteel, Progenitus, Phage, Hellkite or whatever you like), attack with annihilator 6, opponnent sacrifices 2 Orchard tokens, 3 Plains and 1 Unicorn, however unless you use Akroma or Hellkite with haste, he still lives.

turn 5: Finally, you manage to win, but opponent knows you are lucky bastard he didn't draw his Master Decoy and sideboards his Disenchants in.

OK, joking is fun, but the point is: On the draw and against almost ideal opponent's hand, you have 3 turns to do something before Emrakul starts eating you.

The difference Oath vs Flash: Hulk Flash Combo utilized G & U Pacts to set up & protect instant win. Oath would have to use good old E. Tutor & FoW for this, however both FoW and E. Tutor cost a lot more resources.

Flash wins and S&T creates problem immediately when they resolve. Oath needs its player's next upkeep to create problem. You have plenty of time to try:
:b: discard Oath
:u: counter Oath
:wg: destroy Oath
:r: avoid triggering Oath
e) deal with Oath monsters
f) set off your own win.

Also, as for Land Tax, people don't realize how it would mess. OK, Oath is dangerous to unban, because it would allow specific deck potentially warping the format (but definitely to lesser degree than Hulk Flash or Mystic-ANT did). OTOH, Land Tax would find its home in majority of decks (or at least large portion of them) and change completely style of building and playing manabases.

[emidln]

Dragon's Breath

[Hanni]

We weren't talking about Timewalking with Emrakul. Oath "dredges" Dragon Breath into the yard and then attaches to Emrakul, giving him haste. Hasty Emrakul is a lot scarier than Emrakul without haste.

[Strawberry Dwarf]

We weren't talking about Timewalking with Emrakul. Oath "dredges" Dragon Breath into the yard and then attaches to Emrakul, giving him haste. Hasty Emrakul is a lot scarier than Emrakul without haste.

Oh, I see it now. Sorry.

Dragon Breath.

[Awaclus]

Not true. Any player can activate Oath if he/she controls less creatures than target opponent.
Well, it isn't difficult to make sure you're always the one who controls less creatures.

[xfxf]

I watched a Vintage game last week where an Oath player put an Emrakul and an Iona on the board both with Dragon Breath a turn after getting his Blightsteel Colossus Hurkyl's Recalled. That's some broken shit man. The blue player sitting accross him was just giggling.

[kingsey]

Absolutely not safe to unban oath.

While we are at it what about bazaar of Baghdad?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't know where I got wrong in understanding the rules or perhaps some people don't bother to read cards correctly (?), but to my current knowledge, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn gets timewalk haste only when hardcasted. :really: Oath cheats him into play, so this is not the case here.

Likely scenario of play:

turn 1: Orchard go, /except land, opponent is doing nothing/ ...
... opp EOT: Enlightened Tutor for Oath

turn 2: Draw Oath, play land, cast Oath, go, /opponent has 2 tokens, puts land, attacks for 2 and othervise he is doing nothing -> Wow, Legacy!/

turn 3: Activate Oath, put Emrakul into play, go, /opponent grins, puts a land and then plays his most broken threat: 2/2 Pearled Unicorn vanilla for :2::w:! (In Legacy measures: He is doing nothing.)/

turn 4: Activate Oath, put your secondary beast into play (Sphinx, Akroma, Iona, Blightsteel, Progenitus, Phage, Hellkite or whatever you like), attack with annihilator 6, opponnent sacrifices 2 Orchard tokens, 3 Plains and 1 Unicorn, however unless you use Akroma or Hellkite with haste, he still lives.

turn 5: Finally, you manage to win, but opponent knows you are lucky bastard he didn't draw his Master Decoy and sideboards his Disenchants in.

OK, joking is fun, but the point is: On the draw and against almost ideal opponent's hand, you have 3 turns to do something before Emrakul starts eating you.

The difference Oath vs Flash: Hulk Flash Combo utilized G & U Pacts to set up & protect instant win. Oath would have to use good old E. Tutor & FoW for this, however both FoW and E. Tutor cost a lot more resources.

Flash wins and S&T creates problem immediately when they resolve. Oath needs its player's next upkeep to create problem. You have plenty of time to try:
:b: discard Oath
:u: counter Oath
:wg: destroy Oath
:r: avoid triggering Oath
e) deal with Oath monsters
f) set off your own win.

Also, as for Land Tax, people don't realize how it would mess. OK, Oath is dangerous to unban, because it would allow specific deck potentially warping the format (but definitely to lesser degree than Hulk Flash or Mystic-ANT did). OTOH, Land Tax would find its home in majority of decks (or at least large portion of them) and change completely style of building and playing manabases.

Hulk-Flash is far above the power level of most cards in the format, so not really relevant. Unlike SnT, Oath doesn't let your opponent drop a Knight from hand to deal with your Emrakul and is a turn faster anyway.

Oath might not be too powerful if Orchard and/or Emrakul were banned, but as it stands it shouldn't enter the format.

As for Land Tax, it's a terrible outdated card that would see little to no play if it were legal.

[emidln]

Absolutely not safe to unban oath.

While we are at it what about bazaar of Baghdad?

All I ask is for one of the following:

Demonic Consultation
Gush
Frantic Search

[Vacrix]

I'd say Demonic Consultation is the safest on that list.

[Hanni]

No love for Yawgmoth's Bargain?

[Anusien]

After Land Tax, the next safest card is probably WGD. Bargain doesn't come close.

Which cards make you look silly to discuss unbanning (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15681-DCI-ban-list-update-December-18&p=405388&viewfull=1#post405388) (I got Time Spiral and Frantic Search backward, but other than that, I've been spot on.

[routlaw]

Consultation is the least dangerous card on that list of three. Gush is real real bad news, only the inexperienced thinks that card is safe justbecause it isn't coupled with Fastbond.

[Hanni]

Why is Yawg Barg unsafe while Ad Naseum is safe? They both essentially win the game once resolved. I mean, Yawg Barg sticks around, but the amount of cards you can draw is still finite based on life total. Sure, Yawg can get cheated into play off Show and Tell, but it costs 1 extra mana to hardcast and I doubt Storm decks would pack SnT just for Yawg Barg.

[Anusien]

Bargain costing one life per card and Ad Nauseam costing mana equal to converted mana cost is a huge part of that.

[routlaw]

I think the big difference is the restriction on CMC that Ad Nauseam puts on a deck versus what you can play in an ANT deck. I think a Bargain deck would sport a stronger , diversified protection suite more along the lines of Vintage TPS than the current discard suite favored in Legacy ANT builds.

[Vacrix]

Yawgmoth's Bargain.dec could play Force of Will. AdN cannot. Also, it could play Emrakul and SnT, as you can sneak YawgBarg into play with SnT.

[Hanni]

It still costs 6 mana vs 5 and can be stopped pre-emptively by general hate like Needle, Revoker, and Grip.

How often does ANT fizzle after resolving Ad Naseum? I know it happens, but is the difference worth making Bargain "not even close?" I don't think Storm would dominate and warp the meta if Bargain got unbanned, but it would give Storm a little more presence in the format. Bargain seems as worthy of discussion as any if we're on the topic of Oath.

[Vacrix]

Its not the card so much as the deck structure it enables. When you can play FoW maindeck in storm combo, you don't have to retroactively get rid of permanent based hate and risk not being able to go off with AdN. Also, at lower life totals YawgBarg draws you significantly more cards. Against decks where you don't have to worry about reach spells, you don't have to stop at 5 life, you can go all the way down to 1 and draw 4 additional cards. That can make all the difference when you are going off from something like 10 life. Drawing 9 cards with Yawg has a better chance of getting there than AdN.

Either way I think storm combo already got quite enough with a new version of IGG that has flashback.

[Gheizen64]

No love for Yawgmoth's Bargain?

Better than Hive Mind combo, but not that much. Imho we could see it off, it would make a strong deck but it wouldn't warp the format, a bit like Time Spiral.

Consultation is retarded in a 4-of format. The card is better than Demonic Tutor easily. It's not as used as Demonic in Vintage only because of the 1-of nature of that format.

Oath is a stupid 1-card combo that would warp the format horribly. Grafdigger's Cage isn't an excuse to unban it.

Tax, Vise and Twist would come out and would have relatively little to no absolutely no impact on the format. Earthcraft is another relatively harmless card. Doesn't seem good at all, but could maybe make for a better win condition in enchantress.
Recruiter is probably the next "safer" card in power level terms, but it's annoying in tournaments as you have to stack your deck so it's probably not going to ever be unbanned because of that alone. I'd place Jar Next.

While i'm here, i'm going to have fun creating a "most to least unbannable card" for mental excercise. I'll exclude Jewerly because it's not broken from a power level concept, but just because it make every strategy faster and more dependent on luck. Obviously positions in a tier are basically untenchargeable in my view. I would put tinker-Ancestrall-TimeWalk as the worst 3 offender though.
Also, card in power level are consired as "one-of" unbans, meaning Academy is surprisingly low in the list because current format doesn't really have that many cheap good artifact to make it "just" a better island, while it would still make for some pretty good artifact decks.

My most unbannable to least list.

The "actually not important" tier:
1- Tax
2- Vise
3- Twist
4- Earthcraft

The "something's gonna come out from here" tier:
5- Recruiter
6- Worldgorger Dragon
7- Yawgmoth's Bargain
8- Memory Jar (no tinker)

The "card would become prevalent in the format, probably too good" tier:
9- Survival of the Fittest
10- Hermit Druid (would be an incredibly strong deck, but easily hateable)
11- Mind's Desire
12- Frantic Search
13- Mana Vault (i don't consider it jewerly because it wouldn't be as omnipresent as sol ring or mana crypt)
14- Mental Misstep
15- Imperial Seal
16- Vampiric Tutor
17- Mystical Tutor (i consider mystic worse for the format since it goes only as a combo-enabler, differently from vampiric and imperial seal that can go into rock decks and whatsnot)
18- Windfall
19- Skullclamp
20- Library of Alexandria
21- Tolarian Academy (without Jewerly this is way worse compared to workshop)

The "obscenely good but maybe still a playable format" tier:
21- Mana Drain
21- Gush (yeah i consider gush that broken, just because it fit in every deck)
21- Fastbond
22- Workshop (no jewelry, no crypt, lodestone not good in this format)
23- Oath
24- Wheel of fortune
25- Timetwister

The "just no" tier:
26- Necro
27- Flash
28- Demonic tutor
29- Strip Mine
30- Channel
31- Balance
32- Yawgmoth's Will
33- Demonic Consultation
34- Bazaar
35- Time Vault
36- Tinker
37- Ancestral Recall
38- Time Walk

[Vacrix]

I mostly agree with your list... however I'd switch Dragon with Vise. I'd pick up Stasis in a heartbeat if Vise were legal. Drop both, and you've probably won.. and 1 mana isn't hard to get under a Stasis lock.

[Hanni]

Black Vise is just as format warping as Oath though. It's not a broken 1-card combo like Oath, but it completely destroys control. I mean, if you want to completely get rid of blue from the format, that's definitely one way to do it.

Also, regardless of Storm being able to run Force of Will, and regardless of Show and Tell decks being able to fit it into their decks, I still think Yawgmoth's Bargain is fair enough to take off the banned list. It's no more degenerate than Time Spiral in terms of power level for cost, and we already saw that one come off without warping the format. Without Moxen, Sol Ring, etc to power it out, it's not much worse (i.e better) than Hive Mind or Ad Nauseam for Legacy.

[Aggro_zombies]

Black Vise is just as format warping as Oath though. It's not a broken 1-card combo like Oath, but it completely destroys control. I mean, if you want to completely get rid of blue from the format, that's definitely one way to do it.
I wasn't aware that "sit on a hand full of good blue cards" control decks were a particularly large or viable part of the format. I mean, Stoneblade is basically the control pillar of the format, and it's entirely possible for it to work around a Vise.

[Hanni]

The only way Stoneblade is beating a turn 1 Vise is to have Force of Will for it, or resolve a turn 2 SFM into turn 3 Batterskull and start gaining life back. Stoneblade usually has a full grip of cards, or at least more than 4. Early game, they stay near 6-7.

You're also not taking into context what type of decks would run Vise. The power level of decks like Zoo, Burn, and Sligh would go through the roof. There are plenty of other shells that Vise fits into, too. Blue Control would slowly die out.

Either way, it's still a format warping card, no different than cards like Oath or Gush.

[Aggro_zombies]

The only way Stoneblade is beating a turn 1 Vise is to have Force of Will for it, or resolve a turn 2 SFM into turn 3 Batterskull and start gaining life back. Stoneblade usually has a full grip of cards, or at least more than 4. Early game, they stay near 6-7.

You're also not taking into context what type of decks would run Vise. The power level of decks like Zoo, Burn, and Sligh would go through the roof. There are plenty of other shells that Vise fits into, too. Blue Control would slowly die out.
Combo decks would provide enough downward pressure on non-blue linears to make blue an attractive choice. Granted, tempo blue decks have historically strong matchups against combo and are resilient to Vise, but I'm not sure why "blue control" needs to be in the format per se. We don't really have a true tribal deck right now, nor do we have a fast aggro deck unless you want to count various burn/Delver decks as occupying that slot. The format is heavily skewed towards midrange, even amongst the aggro decks (see: Maverick), and it's perfectly healthy.

Besides, there have been stretches of the format before where grindy blue decks were not very good, and it hasn't been an issue.

[Vacrix]

I agree about the comparison of Time Spiral to YawgBarg. If they are willing to unban Time Spiral, YawgBarg isn't far off.. But I personally was against unbanning TS. It has no business being in this format IMO. They should have given High Tide combo Frantic Search instead, especially since High Tide also got Snapcaster Mage. TS enables storm combo that can play FoW and Flusterstorm, and its not at all hard to play (compared to ANT it is but seriously now...)

[Hanni]

Vise is like a more resilient Delver against decks that can't empty their hand quickly, and it doesn't die to Swords to Plowshares. It's a better Lightning Bolt against most decks, and against any deck that wants more than 4 cards in hand, it's going to destroy them.

It may not be as format warping as some of the other banned cards, but it would still change the format. Blue in general would see alot less play.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yawgmoth's Bargain.dec could play Force of Will. AdN cannot. Also, it could play Emrakul and SnT, as you can sneak YawgBarg into play with SnT.

This actually sounds terrifying and is the best argument I've heard against Bargain (the Emrakul/SnT plan I mean.)

Demonic Consultation is far more powerful than Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal, so shouldn't be discussed before them.

Anusien's list actually isn't terrible in terms of the safe cards, although I would say Mana Drain is also fairly safe.

[Hanni]

Oh how I wish they would unban Mana Drain. No mana burn rules anymore, so its a strictly better Counterspell. Turn 2 Mana Drain, turn 3 Jace sounds epic.

[Awaclus]

No love for Yawgmoth's Bargain?
Lots of love for Bargain here, and that is precisely because it is one of the most broken cards ever printed and definitely not safe for Legacy.

On Black Vise: You can't warp a healthy format with that. It would definitely see play, though, and could possibly make Burn a little bit too good, but if Burn becomes the dominating deck, it's easy to beat even with Vise in it. I don't support the unbanning because we don't need it to fix any problems right now, and there is a risk that it would be too good, but if they decide to unban it anyway, I'm okay with it.

About Mana Drain: It's not like I want blue to get any stronger than it currently is, but would a Counterspell that gives one or two colorless mana for your next turn be too good? Probably not.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Right, Mana Drain is hardly a card that needs to be unbanned, but there's little danger of it cracking the format either. Blade Control would be a better deck than it is right now, Nev's Disk might see some play again, and that's about it.

[Gheizen64]

Vise is like a more resilient Delver against decks that can't empty their hand quickly, and it doesn't die to Swords to Plowshares. It's a better Lightning Bolt against most decks, and against any deck that wants more than 4 cards in hand, it's going to destroy them.

It may not be as format warping as some of the other banned cards, but it would still change the format. Blue in general would see alot less play.

It's a better lightning bolt (lava spike) only on turn 1 on the play. On the draw, it's already considerably worse, and one force hardly counter the card. If anything, pure control decks could start playing a couple EE and hate it easily (card is also amazing against aggro decks, so it's not like you're playing shit cards) by emptying your hand quickly + giving you an out to it. Against aggro, tempo, combo and midrange the card is a strictly worse lava spike like 99% of the times. Not to mention is like topdecking a land lategame in aggressive decks, it make your threat density drop in exchange for an effect that isn't worth it.
Sure it's good against Caw Blade, but against everything else it's pretty terrible, and as such deck wouldn't actually play it unless the format become cawblade on cawblade mirrors, which i doubt.

Delver is actually on another planet. The argument about "it's not a creature" it's also pretty bad here, because Vise is actually countered by something even more common than creature removal, every card that isn't a counterspell or a drawing spell.



Right, Mana Drain is hardly a card that needs to be unbanned, but there's little danger of it cracking the format either. Blade Control would be a better deck than it is right now, Nev's Disk might see some play again, and that's about it.

That's a lot of $$ right there. WotC isn't going make it happen, not before the format become as niche as Vintage.



I mostly agree with your list... however I'd switch Dragon with Vise. I'd pick up Stasis in a heartbeat if Vise were legal. Drop both, and you've probably won.. and 1 mana isn't hard to get under a Stasis lock.

I've tested a lot Vise in stasis back when MM was legal. My impression was that Ebony Owl Netsuke was slightly better, because it dodged MM and did 1 more damage per turn (Netsuke deal 4 on 7 cards against 3 of Vise) meaning 5 turn against 7 turn clock and less time for your opponent to find an out to the lock. Now that MM is gone, Vise is the better card again, but it's not like Ebony Owl Netsuke is THAT worse.
The deck is already good but has the problem of being unable to win in time consistently, and it's not a problem you'd solve with Vise.

[Strawberry Dwarf]

The "actually not important" tier:
1- Tax
2- Vise
3- Twist
4- Earthcraft
Nonsense. Tax and Twist are extremely powerful (and unfun) cards alone themselves with similar power level as of Balance or Timewalk. Vise destroys control (plan B for combo?) and I have bad gut feeling about Earthcraft: Food Chain supply. Earthcraft might be worthy to try. OK, Vise would keep Tax in check a little, if unban Tax, then both or none.


The "something's gonna come out from here" tier:
5- Recruiter
6- Worldgorger Dragon
7- Yawgmoth's Bargain
8- Memory Jar (no tinker)
5- Consistent 3rd-turn combo-kill R/g FC Goblins with usual aggro plan as back-up? Yummy...
6- Not power, but not fun either. Legacy's gravehate would handle it. Still, not fun and not without danger.
7- I don't understand why Ad Naus remains legal still. For me, the question isn't whether unban this, for me the question is why the hell Ad Nauseam was printed and wasn't banned yet.
8- As old pre-rotation ancient Extended player I tell you, this card is insanely broken. It fueled 1st turn consistent kills (around 60% goldfish then, 3rd turn 100% with counter back-up). Imagine the mess in today's Legacy. Without Tinker, however with a lot more ritual mana and Goblin Welder and Shape Anew and E.Tutor and SnT... Like its effect and wanna create fair deck around it? Use Magus of the Jar instead.


The "card would become prevalent in the format, probably too good" tier:
9- Survival of the Fittest
10- Hermit Druid (would be an incredibly strong deck, but easily hateable)
11- Mind's Desire
12- Frantic Search
13- Mana Vault (i don't consider it jewerly because it wouldn't be as omnipresent as sol ring or mana crypt)
14- Mental Misstep
15- Imperial Seal
16- Vampiric Tutor
17- Mystical Tutor (i consider mystic worse for the format since it goes only as a combo-enabler, differently from vampiric and imperial seal that can go into rock decks and whatsnot)
18- Windfall
19- Skullclamp
20- Library of Alexandria
21- Tolarian Academy (without Jewerly this is way worse compared to workshop)

Only few comments: Survival (for fair use) was reprinted on legs, no need to have such broken enchantment in the format. Mana Vault & Academy are pure mana fuel. Tutors should remain banned and other tutors might follow. OTOH I don't understand banning of Mental Misstep and Library of Alexandria.


The "obscenely good but maybe still a playable format" tier:
21- Mana Drain
21- Gush (yeah i consider gush that broken, just because it fit in every deck)
21- Fastbond
22- Workshop (no jewelry, no crypt, lodestone not good in this format)
23- Oath
24- Wheel of fortune
25- Timetwister
Oath & Workshop are definitively safer than Memory Jar or Bargain. Mana Drain is "safe", but it became strictly better than Counterspell now without manaburn and it is quite hard to purchase.


The "just no" tier:
26- Necro
27- Flash
28- Demonic tutor
29- Strip Mine
30- Channel
31- Balance
32- Yawgmoth's Will
33- Demonic Consultation
34- Bazaar
35- Time Vault
36- Tinker
37- Ancestral Recall
38- Time Walk
Strip Mine is relatively safe. Unban Tax, unban Vise, unban Strip Mine, ban Crucible. Another question: Bazaar. How much would it mess up? Time Vault... 2 card combo with Voltaic Key? IMHO both (Time & Mana) Vaults legal and Voltaic Key banned is lesser evil.

----------
I have opposite candidates, for banning, too.

1. Brainstorm - It allows blue to cheat vs discard & too strong synergy with fetchlands.

2. Crucible of Worlds - Too strong synergy with fetchlands, banning this might allow to unban Strip Mine.

3. Big dudes from last sets (Blightsteel, Emrakul, Kozilek, Progenitus, Sphinx) - Nice example of power creep. In ancient sets, big dudes needed some effort to get to work and were quite easier to deal with. The newer ones are just stupid timmy creatures and tempting targets for cheat-into-play spells.

4. Vial - This is the main pure control's killer.

5. Voltaic/Galvanic Key - Ban Keys and unban Vaults.

6. Ad Nauseam - Idiotic overpowered draw-engine.

7. Portal cards - They weren't designed for tournament play.

8. Remaining search spells & wishes with CMC < 4 - Card games should be about playing the randomly drawn cards without pulling aces out from the hat. The art of deckbuilding in MtG should focus on exploring tiny synergies of as many cards as possible together in a deck instead of focusing on single lame combo kill glued together by search spells, draw spells & mana accels. That said, dedicated combo shouldn't exist, combo decks should have to play more win conditions with cross-synergies or include control elements to survive aggro matchup.

9. Time Spiral - Why this got unbanned? Maybe it is just bad memories, but The Combo Winter was terrible.

[Hanni]

Ubanning Strip Mine would be rediculous. This is a 4-of format where Wasteland is already extremely powerful. Banning Crucible doesn't stop a Loam lock with Strip either.

Survival is safe to come off. Turn 4 quad Vengevines would not be nearly as strong in the format as it was before.

Mystical Tutor can come off too, since it shouldn't have been put on there in the first place.

Mana Drain could come off. Only slow control decks would run it, and it wouldn't make them too strong, especially with the format running so many low cost spells due to efficiency and lack of Moxen.

Earthcraft can come off. The card isn't that broken.

Mind Twist can come off. So can WGD.

Bargain could come off. Hive Mind and Tendrils Storm get a little stronger, but are still kept in check with all of the blue in this format.

Land Tax isn't any better than Life from the Loam and also needs to come off.

[ddt15]

Can't believe some of the comments in this thread. You guys realise that Land Tax turns all your Brainstorms into Ancestrals right?

Most of the stuff I read here would turn Legacy into type1 without P9. If you want to play these cards, go play type1.

[Humphrey]

Ubanning Strip Mine would be rediculous. This is a 4-of format where Wasteland is already extremely powerful. Banning Crucible doesn't stop a Loam lock with Strip either.

Survival is safe to come off. Turn 4 quad Vengevines would not be nearly as strong in the format as it was before.

Mystical Tutor can come off too, since it shouldn't have been put on there in the first place.

Mana Drain could come off. Only slow control decks would run it, and it wouldn't make them too strong, especially with the format running so many low cost spells due to efficiency and lack of Moxen.

Earthcraft can come off. The card isn't that broken.

Mind Twist can come off. So can WGD.

Bargain could come off. Hive Mind and Tendrils Storm get a little stronger, but are still kept in check with all of the blue in this format.

Land Tax isn't any better than Life from the Loam and also needs to come off.

Not sure about Survival, but the rest is correct. Id love to see Recruiter unbanned too though.

[Hanni]

Land Tax only turns your Brainstorms into Ancestral Recalls if you limit your mana production, I.e you need to build your deck to be able to properly use Land Tax. Life from the Loam turns Brainstorms into Ancestral Recalls too, except you can mana ramp all you want and it gets back nonbasics.

Land Tax might end up being a good card, but it's not even close to broken.

[ddt15]

..you need to build your deck to be able to properly use Land Tax.
Which is exactly what would happen. It also has the nice side effects that it makes your deck much more resilient against Wasteland, Blood Moon and Price of Progress.
UW Control is strong enough as it is.

[Hanni]

Have you ever played U/W Control and been stuck on 1 land? It's not fun.

By U/W Control, what you meant to say was U/W Tempo, where Tax would definitelty be a good card in there, but its not gonna break the format apart.

[Nihil Credo]

UW Control can already play Squadron Hawk - check out Kotter's list, it's stupidly good - which is essentially a Land Tax that works at any point in the game, doesn't ask you to cripple your mana development or play the worst Mox, and gives you flying chump blockers instead of basic lands (considerably more useful if you don't have a Brainstorm or Jace to trade them for an Ancestral Recall).

Not even R&D is worried about Land Tax's power level; they're worried, right or wrong (wrongly, IMO) about it being an excessive time sink.

edit: With that said, I noticed that this is supposed to be an Oath of Druids thread. We already have a general banlist thread.

[Richard Cheese]

Damnit, and I just made some popcorn so I could sit back and enjoy yet another ban list circle jerk discussion.

[Malakai]

The nice thing about these threads is you get to see who understands the format, and who doesn't.

And, for the record, there are better Oath targets than Emrakul.

[Strawberry Dwarf]

Land Tax might end up being a good card, but it's not even close to broken.

If Land Tax isn't broken then nothing is. Tax doesn't fuel any quick instant win combo, but so doesn't Balance, Timewalk, Strip Mine, Mana Drain, Library of Alexandria, Mental Misstep. It is just extremely powerful card itself for :w:.

Land Tax is legal in Vintage. I am not familiar with Vintage metagame, but there is quite difference I guess. Basic lands are rarely used there. Still, I am sure it is possible to build pretty broken deck around it there.
--------
As for Oath... Oath deck woul be tier1 deck on Legacy map and a must to deal with. Still, less annoying than Mystic-ANT or HulkFlash or some UGW-tempo/lock fueled with Tax.

Conclusion: Not unban Oath. Not unban Tax either.

[routlaw]

And, for the record, there are better Oath targets than Emrakul.

I think that's at the very least arguably true in the context of Vintage, but in a non-powered environment the other current Oath technology (Lab Maniac, Rune Scarred Demon especially) seems way weaker than hasted Emrakul.

[Gheizen64]

The nice thing about these threads is you get to see who understands the format, and who doesn't.

And, for the record, there are better Oath targets than Emrakul.

In Vintage, sure, in an hypotetical format with no Time Walk? Not the case imho. You won't Demon Oath for Timewarp.

[Technics]

edit: With that said, I noticed that this is supposed to be an Oath of Druids thread. We already have a general banlist thread.


Because apparently nobody noticed his post...

Back on topic people!

And yeah, Emrakual isn't the best target IMO for Oath. Sun Titan looks pretty nice, as does Jin, and Tydspout tyrant. Of course Emrakul + Dragon's Breath is pretty gg.

[Hanni]

Just for the record, I was playing devil's advocate regarding Oath earlier. Was trying to arouse discussion. After reading all of your responses, I agree that Oath is a bit too much for Legacy, even if there are a million answer cards to a 2cc enchantment. Honestly, it's power level is probably higher than Flash, since Flash is a 2-card combo while Oath is not (and then there is still Beast Within and Forbidden Orchard for when it's not).

I guess I'll have to continue the mass unbanning discussion in the Ban Thread :D

[SpikeyMikey]

Nonsense. Tax and Twist are extremely powerful (and unfun) cards alone themselves with similar power level as of Balance or Timewalk. Vise destroys control (plan B for combo?) and I have bad gut feeling about Earthcraft: Food Chain supply. Earthcraft might be worthy to try. OK, Vise would keep Tax in check a little, if unban Tax, then both or none.


5- Consistent 3rd-turn combo-kill R/g FC Goblins with usual aggro plan as back-up? Yummy...
6- Not power, but not fun either. Legacy's gravehate would handle it. Still, not fun and not without danger.
7- I don't understand why Ad Naus remains legal still. For me, the question isn't whether unban this, for me the question is why the hell Ad Nauseam was printed and wasn't banned yet.
8- As old pre-rotation ancient Extended player I tell you, this card is insanely broken. It fueled 1st turn consistent kills (around 60% goldfish then, 3rd turn 100% with counter back-up). Imagine the mess in today's Legacy. Without Tinker, however with a lot more ritual mana and Goblin Welder and Shape Anew and E.Tutor and SnT... Like its effect and wanna create fair deck around it? Use Magus of the Jar instead.



Only few comments: Survival (for fair use) was reprinted on legs, no need to have such broken enchantment in the format. Mana Vault & Academy are pure mana fuel. Tutors should remain banned and other tutors might follow. OTOH I don't understand banning of Mental Misstep and Library of Alexandria.


Oath & Workshop are definitively safer than Memory Jar or Bargain. Mana Drain is "safe", but it became strictly better than Counterspell now without manaburn and it is quite hard to purchase.


Strip Mine is relatively safe. Unban Tax, unban Vise, unban Strip Mine, ban Crucible. Another question: Bazaar. How much would it mess up? Time Vault... 2 card combo with Voltaic Key? IMHO both (Time & Mana) Vaults legal and Voltaic Key banned is lesser evil.

----------
I have opposite candidates, for banning, too.

1. Brainstorm - It allows blue to cheat vs discard & too strong synergy with fetchlands.

2. Crucible of Worlds - Too strong synergy with fetchlands, banning this might allow to unban Strip Mine.

3. Big dudes from last sets (Blightsteel, Emrakul, Kozilek, Progenitus, Sphinx) - Nice example of power creep. In ancient sets, big dudes needed some effort to get to work and were quite easier to deal with. The newer ones are just stupid timmy creatures and tempting targets for cheat-into-play spells.

4. Vial - This is the main pure control's killer.

5. Voltaic/Galvanic Key - Ban Keys and unban Vaults.

6. Ad Nauseam - Idiotic overpowered draw-engine.

7. Portal cards - They weren't designed for tournament play.

8. Remaining search spells & wishes with CMC < 4 - Card games should be about playing the randomly drawn cards without pulling aces out from the hat. The art of deckbuilding in MtG should focus on exploring tiny synergies of as many cards as possible together in a deck instead of focusing on single lame combo kill glued together by search spells, draw spells & mana accels. That said, dedicated combo shouldn't exist, combo decks should have to play more win conditions with cross-synergies or include control elements to survive aggro matchup.

9. Time Spiral - Why this got unbanned? Maybe it is just bad memories, but The Combo Winter was terrible.

You have to be trolling. Land Tax was never on a power level with Balance or Time Walk. And in the current environment, Tax is so painfully slow as to be more or less unplayable. If you're going to troll, make it a believable troll...

[(nameless one)]

You have to be trolling. Land Tax was never on a power level with Balance or Time Walk. And in the current environment, Tax is so painfully slow as to be more or less unplayable. If you're going to troll, make it a believable troll...

I could attest to this. I've been playing Parfait (Tax-Rack) as my casual deck of choice and trust me, it's a good way to troll casual players at the local store. Games go on for hours without your opponent actually winning or you losing.

[Gheizen64]

You have to be trolling. Land Tax was never on a power level with Balance or Time Walk. And in the current environment, Tax is so painfully slow as to be more or less unplayable. If you're going to troll, make it a believable troll...

People didn't answer to him because it was pretty clearly a bad troll, no need to feed it now...

[Strawberry Dwarf]

I was called troll...

OK, people are entitled to have such opinion, but IMHO these people don't realize how Land Tax could twist Legacy - a format based on lands as main manasource.

Land Tax wouldn't enable immediate wins, true, but I never told that. The problem is it would punish playing lands: definitely a bad thing in principle. Vintage is bad example, because Vintage decks rely much less on (basic) lands as manasources and are quite faster.

Also, I never told Oath is safe. But from my own EXPERIENCE (not speculation) Oath is easier to deal with or to play around than Land Tax in long term, despite the fact triggered Oath means usually quick loss.

A note: I am more casual than tournament player now, but I really wasn't trolling.