[Discussion] Most broken Commander?

[Amon Amarth]

I've been playing Commander pretty frequently over the last few months and I've built a lot of different decks of varying power levels, some are over 9000 and others are more casual. My playgroups aren't very competitive/experienced so I've never been able to play against tuned, powerful decks. From what I've read there are a handful Tier 1 Commanders- Azami, Sharuum, Zur, Azusa, Jhoira, Arcum, and maybe Scion. Then there are quite a few slower but equally formidable Tier 2 Commanders like Skithyrix and Uril. I've only played with Azusa and Skittles but they feel roughly equal to me.

What other legendary creatures should be on my radar? Are all these Commanders equally powerful or is there one that's truly broken?

[boneclub24]

I wouldn't say there is a 'most broken' commander. They all sort of balance each other out.

If you want the most powerful general in a vacuum, I would say Sharuum. Artifacts have millions of combos.

However, these are balanced out by some of the other generals and what their 'broken-ness' does.

[Purgatory]

Second Sharuum, she is a beast.

Also, I think The Mimeoplasm deserves a mention as well, his colours give you everything you need to ramp into a combo, backed up by solid control in both countermagic, spotremoval and sweepers (Deed, Damnation et al). He is also capable of some powerful combos, Skittles + anything with power 6+ will kill an opponent for 2UBBG, which is quite powerful in EDH.

[Bignasty197]

Sharuum and Zur are probably the best ones when you look at what they can do. If you build it right, Vorosh, The Hunter is pretty boss. While not Combo-licious like Zur and Sharuum, he gives you what I think are the best colors in EDH.

[Malchar]

Vendilion clique is pretty strong in 1v1. You just run a ton of counterspells and then tunnel vision the opponent.

[kombatkiwi]

In 1v1 you really can't go past counterspell.dec

Vendilion Clique is the most popular but I've been trying to test a UB version (Probably Dralnu) to see if it can be just as strong and have a bit more variety.

When you go Mono U you become basically stone cold to Thrun which is something I would like to avoid.

In multiplayer you want a deck that can combo everybody off or lock them out of the game ASAP.

So either
Arcum (Usually combo)
Sharuum (Combo)
Zur (Lock)
Azami (Bit of Both)

SurvivalGoodstuff can also work well in multiplayer as GUx or GBx

You basically start moving along a continuum of Slower to More Resilient in terms of deck choice.

So I'm sure some people would disagree but I would rank them like this, probably

[Fast, More glass cannon]
-Sharuum
-Arcum
-Zur
-SurvivalGoodstuff
-Azusa
-Azami
[Slower, More Resilient]

That said, the blue combo decks do have counterspells etc so it's not so cut and dried
I don't even rate azusa as a deck, TBH

[Glo]

I second Zur, Sharuum, Uril and Azami. But whenever I bring out Numot, the Devastator, I get a big fat bullseye on me. I keep forgetting how much people hate land destruction:tongue:

[Amon Amarth]

Ah yeah, I forgot about Mimeoplasm. He's pretty brutal. Being able to use all the best tutors (GY/Hand) and a super fast combo kill make for a potent threat.

I was mostly trying to figure out multiplayer since 1v1 doesn't really feel like Commander to me (no political aspect, much faster games, increased impact of bombs, etc) but I do play it occasionally.

Do you guys find that your playgroups are too fast for some of the slower Commanders or are the slower decks able to hate out and/or effectively attack the weak points of the faster decks like Sharrum e.g. artifact hate or GY hate?

[Offler]

Child of Alara

In sacrifice/reanimate deck. Crucial parts are High Market and Volrath's Stronghold and similar cards and other reanimation/sacrifice.

Rest of deck does not interact with the general as well, but good balance between card drawing in playing agro/midrange will usualy cut most decks based on permanents in play.

Most of the broken generals were already mentioned.

Most annoying in multiplayer. When dies, goes to the grave, when exiled can be cast again.

[kicks_422]

Well, for what the commander actually does, Damia, Sage of Stone is probably the best one. It's also in the three best colors for EDH.

[Scordata]

No love for Oona?
Everytime I cast her it's GG.

[TheArchitect]

Sharuum, mimoplasm, azusa, child of alara and monoblue counterspells.dec are probably the strongest.

I think zur, uril and arcum can't quite make the top tier. I play with and against all 3 of them alot and they can be very hit or miss since you are relying very heavily on your general. If they counter/remove zur/arcum/uril, it really sets you back and by the time you can cast them again your opponents will be in a better position because they aren't relying on a general as their engine.

[Kuma]

My playgroup is completely cut-throat, and the two decks that have had the most success are Oona, Queen of the Fae and Sharuum the Hegemon. Oona, Queen of the Fae has won 52% of its games (3 player group) and Sharuum the Hegemon has won 41%. Next best decks are The Mimeoplasm at 34% and Arcum Dagsson at 33%.

I keep a spreadsheet with the results from our games and also who got a Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, what turn they cast it, and if they won the game.

IMO, the top tier generals are:

Oona, Queen of the Fae
Sharuum the Hegemon
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
The Mimeoplasm
Arcum Dagsson
Some five-color general with Hermit Druid combo.

A step below are:

Jhoira of the Ghitu
Memnarch (he's pretty much mono-colored Oona, Queen of the Fae)
Pretty much any :u::g:x general.

Another step below we have:
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Zur the Enchanter
Pretty much any :u:x general
Pretty much any :u: general

I think Zur the Enchanter and Azusa, Lost but Seeking are very overrated. We've had several Zur the Enchanter decks in our playgroup, and they've never had much success. They play out in very predictable patterns, and it's pretty easy to disrupt when you know it's coming. Without the general, the deck isn't very good.

Azusa, Lost but Seeking seems fine in theory, but in my group she's only won 27% of her games. It's probably her reliance on creatures and the lack of good tutors.

[phonics]

It depends on 1v1 or multiplayer

1v1:
s+
clique
a
zur
sharuum
azami
oona
arcum
mimeoplasm

multiplayer
I think 5c hermit druid is the fastest most consistent followed by sharuum, zur and oona. combo is way stronger than tempo here.

[andrewlb]

I honestly think Animar is worth mentioning, you are a race deck and pretty consistent at what you are doing, I've gone 3-3 with competitive Oona and I'm still tuning but I'd say it is up there among decks, maybe not tier 1, but close, also you benefit from less variance than sol ring/crypt dependent draws.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with Kuma about Azusa being overrated. She can regularly dismantle casual decks and compete with good Tier One decks with her best draws, but green just doesn't have enough good card drawing or tutors to keep her sustained. After the first +5 lands or so, her ability really doesn't matter, and then the deck is mostly just hoping to peel bombs off the top.

I've beat her with a semi-competitive Saffi deck pretty easily simply because I can end the game in one turn, outside of combat.

I had a mostly-competitive Oona deck for a while (hampered by a lack of Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, and Time Twister). The nice thing about Oona is that she's very flexible. You can build a control deck that uses infinite mana and Oona to finish people, you can build a storm deck that's just using Oona for the colors, or you can do what I did and build a hybrid. I had Doomsday to set up either a stack to generate near-infinite storm or infinite mana for Oona and it was pretty good.

I'd like to see a 5c Hermit Druid deck. I've been tinkering with one for a while and it hasn't quite worked out the way I hoped. Not being able to find or activate Hermit Druid makes the deck much worse, though it may be a function of me not having a good general (get there Atogatog!).

[boneclub24]

On Mimeoplasm vs Damia:

Mimeoplasm lets you get a combo kill with easy set-up that doesn't rely on the general living more than a round. It also is graveyard hate in a pinch.

[Aggro_zombies]

On Mimeoplasm vs Damia:

Mimeoplasm lets you get a combo kill with easy set-up that doesn't rely on the general living more than a round. It also is graveyard hate in a pinch.
Mimeoplasm is far better than Damia. Damia lends herself to a control deck and control is generally bad in competitive EDH because of the number of low-investment infinite combos that exist. You're better off running a general that can kill people out of nowhere with poison than one that costs a lot more and has to survive for a turn before she does anything.

I'm not even sure Damia is Tier Two. Vorosh is probably better in a pure control build because he kills so quickly.

[kombatkiwi]

The problem with an analysis like this is that in edh theres much more variance in deck construction than in other formats (especially because many top decks are so tutor based), so while you can say 'arcum deck' or 'zur deck' everyone here probably has a different idea of what that entails.

The other thing is that in edh (where i am, at least) you normally only ever see a particular general played by one or two people so playskill plays a bigger part than it does in other formats too, in terms of trying to evaluate the best deck.

Finally, there isnt an established tournament scene so it's hard to objectively say that one deck is better than the other.

[Aggro_zombies]

The problem with an analysis like this is that in edh theres much more variance in deck construction than in other formats (especially because many top decks are so tutor based), so while you can say 'arcum deck' or 'zur deck' everyone here probably has a different idea of what that entails.

The other thing is that in edh (where i am, at least) you normally only ever see a particular general played by one or two people so playskill plays a bigger part than it does in other formats too, in terms of trying to evaluate the best deck.

Finally, there isnt an established tournament scene so it's hard to objectively say that one deck is better than the other.
Eh, not really. Some generals - like Zur - are linear enough that most people can agree on an optimal list to within a small number of flexible slots, and many of the other generals considered Tier One have mostly obvious best implementations.

I think it's interesting to think about these things if you're going to, say, play in EDH side events at a GP or other large tournament. The decks that tend to win those pods are usually tuned versions of tier generals; you could - in theory - see a Tariel deck take down a pod, but you're more likely to see a Zur or a Sharuum or something of that nature win. Playskill certainly plays a part in it, but that's not a confounding factor limited to EDH.

While the title of "most broken" is up in the air, I think people can agree on a fairly small pool of candidates for it.

[socialite]

Karn, Silver Golem is actually pretty powerful depending on how you build it. I haven't had much issue competing with builds of "top tier" generals.

Here (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7777) is my most recent build.

[Offler]

I want to ask, no one plays Meloku the clouded mirror? Card itself is quite highly rated.

Also Memnarch is quite broken general in a good blue/brown deck. I play him from time to time.

Ertai, the corrupted is rated by players in similar way as Zur, no one play those two wizards.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think no one plays Ertai because Sharuum and Zur are just better.

The big thing that makes some generals Tier One and other generals not is whether they're combo pieces. Sharuum is part of a number of infinite combos, Zur voltrons himself up to kill quickly, Mimeoplasm getting Skittles plus any 6+ power guy ends games quickly, Azami draws tons of cards and can be a combo piece with Mind Over Matter, and so on. Ertai just doesn't kill people fast enough or do enough on his own to be good.

[kombatkiwi]

I think no one plays Ertai because Sharuum and Zur are just better.

The big thing that makes some generals Tier One and other generals not is whether they're combo pieces. Sharuum is part of a number of infinite combos, Zur voltrons himself up to kill quickly, Mimeoplasm getting Skittles plus any 6+ power guy ends games quickly, Azami draws tons of cards and can be a combo piece with Mind Over Matter, and so on. Ertai just doesn't kill people fast enough or do enough on his own to be good.

This is the kind of thing (ertai is good, no he isnt) that i meant in my last post
Everybody has different experience based on their own friends/playgroup so its often hard to reach a unanimous conclusion.

[Offler]

Well, some people here play reanimators. Combo is within the deck and has nothing to do with the general. The deck is 5 colored so i suggested to remove few colors.

The current general of that reanimator is Child of alara. The deck itself has an ability to destroy everything on table but is vulnerable to sorceries and instants. So I suggested Ertai, the corrupted as an alternative. Still has ability to sacrifice creatures but provides different approach to the controlling the game.

I understand Zur and the deck which can be build up around him. Its pretty dangerous to let him attack.

also Ashling the pilgrim. Have seen deck with him and many many mountains. I cant decide whether the deck was broken, or just stupid :D

[Admiral_Arzar]

Oona, Queen of the Fae
Sharuum the Hegemon
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
The Mimeoplasm
Arcum Dagsson
Some five-color general with Hermit Druid combo.

A step below are:

Jhoira of the Ghitu
Memnarch (he's pretty much mono-colored Oona, Queen of the Fae)
Pretty much any :u::g:x general.

Another step below we have:
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Zur the Enchanter
Pretty much any :u:x general
Pretty much any :u: general



Your meta sounds very similar to how mine was, back when we played EDH (everyone's playing Warmahordes now). I would argue that Zur is actually top-tier (he's better than Dagsson and probably Azami, and tends to be hindered by Zur players being bad more than anything else). Once our Zur player learned the all-important "always fetch Necro first" lesson, we realized how good Zur actually is.

[Gocho]

I saw many Edric.deck at french tournaments. Anybody likes him?

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, some people here play reanimators. Combo is within the deck and has nothing to do with the general. The deck is 5 colored so i suggested to remove few colors.

The current general of that reanimator is Child of alara. The deck itself has an ability to destroy everything on table but is vulnerable to sorceries and instants. So I suggested Ertai, the corrupted as an alternative. Still has ability to sacrifice creatures but provides different approach to the controlling the game.

I understand Zur and the deck which can be build up around him. Its pretty dangerous to let him attack.

also Ashling the pilgrim. Have seen deck with him and many many mountains. I cant decide whether the deck was broken, or just stupid :D
If he's running Necrotic Ooze, he should have red. Ooze + Morselhoarder + Devoted Druid + Shivan Hellkite is an instant win.

[Sims]

I saw many Edric.deck at french tournaments. Anybody likes him?


Edric tends to be a favorite of the french banned lists. It's pretty powerful and has a lot of things that hinder it removed from the french format. This is one of the reasons I disdain the french list. When your tournaments and the online metagame start to become warped by 1 general and two counters for that generals playstyle get banned in the most recent list update.... I kind of lose faith in their councils ability to judge the situation fairly.

[apistat_commander]

Edric tends to be a favorite of the french banned lists. It's pretty powerful and has a lot of things that hinder it removed from the french format. This is one of the reasons I disdain the french list. When your tournaments and the online metagame start to become warped by 1 general and two counters for that generals playstyle get banned in the most recent list update.... I kind of lose faith in their councils ability to judge the situation fairly.

Edric is also relevant in the French meta because they play 1v1. In multiplayer he doesn't do a whole lot because he is simply shut down by a removal spell or two.

The top Tier generals are probably Zur, Sharuum, and Arcum. I only include Zur if they are building him as a combo general. If they are doing anything other than Attack -> Necropotence they are doing it wrong. 5c Hermit Druid is viable in 1v1 but it is too easy to disrupt for a (competitive) multiplayer setting. Oona might be top tier, but I just don't see a reason not to add a third color to get more depth. There just isn't enough non-basic hate to punish you for playing wonky manabases in Commander. It also doesn't help that 2 of the 3 top tier generals rely heavily on artifact mana.

I have had quite a bit of success playing BUG Goodstuff/control because you can often just grind players out FTW. Control is viable in multiplayer it just isn't as explosive as combo. Control trades raw power for long game resilience (a choice that seems to make sense given the length of multiplayer games). In a 4-player group of 1 control vs. 3 tuned, top tier combo, yes a combo deck is likely the right choice. However that table isn't likely to happen very often. If a control player can throw enough road blocks in the way of one combo deck you can usually stick around for long enough to lock the game out. Plus it has the benefit of being a passive strategy. You aren't presenting threats early on, so you fly under the radar and draw little hate. Table politics play a crucial role in any multiplayer setting. Yes, sometimes Sharuum or Arcum will get a god hand and go off on turn 2 or 3, but drawing hate from 2 or 3 other players can slow them down enough for the control player to establish dominance. I don't remember where I read the quote, but the gist was essentially that in a multiplayer setting the 3rd person to present a threat is usually going to win. Control is a great way to put yourself in that position.

I disagree that The Mimeoplasm is a stronger general than Damia. I have played the deck for quite a while and tried both generals. In a competitive meta he simply doesn't have enough targets in the yard and the cards you draw off of Damia are far more relevant than having a beater on the field. Yes, he can one-shot people but then you are playing things like Blighted Agent or Skithiryx in your deck and that is just shitty.

I don't think any BUG variant is going to be top Tier because Esper uses artifacts so much better. When two of the best cards in the format are Mana Crypt and Sol Ring, playing an artifact deck seems like a great place to be. BUG also has access to far less impressive combos. Hermit Druid is a really appealing idea, but if you want a fast combo deck why not play one where the general is an active part of your combo.

[Kuma]

Your meta sounds very similar to how mine was, back when we played EDH (everyone's playing Warmahordes now). I would argue that Zur is actually top-tier (he's better than Dagsson and probably Azami, and tends to be hindered by Zur players being bad more than anything else). Once our Zur player learned the all-important "always fetch Necro first" lesson, we realized how good Zur actually is.

I dunno. We've had two Zur the Enchanter decks played by decent players, and neither has had a ton of success. The problem hasn't been the players searching the wrong enchantment, it's been getting the opportunity to attack at all. The deck plays out the same every game, making it easy to save your disruption. Killing Zur even once usually slows the deck down enough to where it can't win.

It's been a while since anyone has tried Zur, so I could be wrong. I've played Kaalia of the Vast, the most similar general to Zur in how it plays out, and I have all the same problems. If somehow I manage to swing with Kaalia on turn three or four and cast an Armageddon/Ravages of War, etc. the next turn without being disrupted in any way, I win. Hasn't happened often.


5c Hermit Druid is viable in 1v1 but it is too easy to disrupt for a (competitive) multiplayer setting.

It depends on how many people you have in multiplayer. I'm sure five-color Hermit Druid could handle two or maybe three opponents just fine.


Oona might be top tier, but I just don't see a reason not to add a third color to get more depth.

There are no three color generals that work as a combo piece better than Oona, Queen of the Fae. Oona turns infinite mana combos into instant win combos. I'll have to post my Oona list sometime. It's bonkers.


In a 4-player group of 1 control vs. 3 tuned, top tier combo, yes a combo deck is likely the right choice.

I've found that you need one control deck for every combo player, or else you're better off playing combo. I've tuned my Riku of Two Reflections list to where it can handle two top-tier artifact decks, but it doesn't do it often enough to where I'm better off playing it than my Oona, Queen of the Fae or The Mimeoplasm list.


I don't remember where I read the quote, but the gist was essentially that in a multiplayer setting the 3rd person to present a threat is usually going to win. Control is a great way to put yourself in that position.

:cool:

It wasn't here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20639-EDH-Skithiryx-the-Blight-Dragon&p=540380&viewfull=1#post540380), was it?

[apistat_commander]

It depends on how many people you have in multiplayer. I'm sure five-color Hermit Druid could handle two or maybe three opponents just fine.

It really hinges on whether or not your opponents know what you are doing. If they know what you are up to, Hermit Druid won't live to untap or your Dread Return will get countered. The great thing about Sharuum is that she recurs your combo pieces and can be recast. Arcum can tutor for protection. If your Hermit Druid eats a swords you are left with your far less impressive Plan B (Cephalid Illusionist, Scion chaining dragons, or beatdown with Mimeo). It isn't a bad deck by any stretch of the imagination and it will certainly tear up most casual decks. However, it sacrifices a lot of resiliency and long game strength for explosive power.



There are no three color generals that work as a combo piece better than Oona, Queen of the Fae. Oona turns infinite mana combos into instant win combos. I'll have to post my Oona list sometime. It's bonkers.

I can see Oona being strong as a win condition in a U/B control shell. If you want pure combo potential though, I think Esper is easily the strongest color combination to be in.



:cool:

It wasn't here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20639-EDH-Skithiryx-the-Blight-Dragon&p=540380&viewfull=1#post540380), was it?

Yep, that's the one. I think that is a perfect explanation of why Control is really good in EDH. While the combo players are busy exploding out artifacts and tutoring for pieces, you get to durdle with Life from the Loam, Top, and Dark Confidant to build up enough cards/mana to control the game.

[Amon Amarth]

Karn, Silver Golem is actually pretty powerful depending on how you build it. I haven't had much issue competing with builds of "top tier" generals.

Here (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7777) is my most recent build.

Actually that was the deck that really got me into EDH. I recently acquired a Shop and Tabernacle to finish it up. It has some of the most explosive starts but it requires good mulligan decisions, sorta like Shop decks in Vintage. How has Karn fared in your playgroup?

[socialite]

Actually that was the deck that really got me into EDH. I recently acquired a Shop and Tabernacle to finish it up. It has some of the most explosive starts but it requires good mulligan decisions, sorta like Shop decks in Vintage. How has Karn fared in your playgroup?

I'm glad - I hear that a lot. :smile:

Karn does what Karn does. Won a game a few days ago against Rafiq of the Many by Copper Gnoming Possessed Portal into play to blank his Time Warp. :laugh:

He was like "I can't believe you just did that to me".

[Offler]

If he's running Necrotic Ooze, he should have red. Ooze + Morselhoarder + Devoted Druid + Shivan Hellkite is an instant win.

The deck has red. He uses Sneak Attack with big monsters. then cards like Altar of Dementia with reanimation/sacrifice infinite combo. Not bad at all but vulnerable to Torpor orb, Tormods crypt and now to Grafdiggers cage.

Five color with a lot of nonbasics (old duals) also cost a fortune and can be beaten with Back to basics or Ruination and any common land destruction.

Focusing on three colors with proper general will remove few weaknesses of his deck. But of course - his deck is most red and black. with Ertai the corrupted it will be completely different deck...

[Lemuria]

Noone mentioned Godo, Bandit Warlord?

That shit is devastating.

[Elbeano]

Noone mentioned Godo, Bandit Warlord?

That shit is devastating.

Turn 3 bashing for 10 infect with Grafted Exoskeleton is rather idiotic. I've been playing Cook's list (though slightly under-powered as I lack Mana Crypt and some of the other pricier cards), and do that fairly consistently to someone on the table. Its bad enough that I don't even like sitting down with Godo if i know that no one else's deck is even close to that power. Though some of the players would rather sit across from Godo than my Arcum.

Meta around here is split between cut throat players and the players who just have fun with awkward crap. The 3 big decks that come to mind are Zur, Sharuum, Maga (yeah, really), and Mimeoplasm - which appears to be the standard

Curiously, as Google isn't turning up anything useful, what exactly is 5C Hermit Druid? Reanimation spell + Ooze? General even matter in that case?

[phonics]

I'm glad - I hear that a lot. :smile:

Karn does what Karn does. Won a game a few days ago against Rafiq of the Many by Copper Gnoming Possessed Portal into play to blank his Time Warp. :laugh:

He was like "I can't believe you just did that to me".

Yeah Karn is pretty good, I havent made one cause I dont have a lot of the mana base. Almost all tier 1 generals are u/x with some exceptions (iike godo)

[socialite]

Curiously, as Google isn't turning up anything useful, what exactly is 5C Hermit Druid? Reanimation spell + Ooze? General even matter in that case?

They typically play Scion of the Ur-Dragon as it allows for a few contingency plans. In all honesty, the lists are pretty good but best compared to a glass cannon. It works really well the first time not so much afterwards when people understand the combos - granted this is entirely dependent on whether the opponents are playing random jank or not.


Godo is pretty boss.

[kombatkiwi]

They typically play Scion of the Ur-Dragon as it allows for a few contingency plans. In all honesty, the lists are pretty good but best compared to a glass cannon. It works really well the first time not so much afterwards when people understand the combos - granted this is entirely dependent on whether the opponents are playing random jank or not.


Godo is pretty boss.

Id rather play 3C as probably UGB just because it's a bit more consistent
Then you can be mimeoplasm and have a bit of contingency plan there too

[majikal]

Ghave, Guru of Spores. If built properly, the whole deck combos with itself.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I dunno. We've had two Zur the Enchanter decks played by decent players, and neither has had a ton of success. The problem hasn't been the players searching the wrong enchantment, it's been getting the opportunity to attack at all. The deck plays out the same every game, making it easy to save your disruption. Killing Zur even once usually slows the deck down enough to where it can't win.

There are no three color generals that work as a combo piece better than Oona, Queen of the Fae. Oona turns infinite mana combos into instant win combos. I'll have to post my Oona list sometime. It's bonkers.


The Zur player in our meta played a gazillion counterspells and used Necro to reload while gradually growing Zur. He also played lock pieces like Rule of Law, Solitary Confinement, and Arcane Laboratory as there was a ton of combo. Using Zur as a combo general is also awesome as that deck doesn't even need to cast him to win - he just makes winning easier by fetching Necro.

I can stand by Oona being absolutely bonkers. I played that deck for a long time, and killed off the entire table on turn 3-4 countless times. I didn't have some of the more expensive fringe cards (Seal, Drain, Grim, Timetwister) but it didn't really matter as the deck was insane. As you said, Oona is by far the best general for that sort of fast combo as she is a win condition (and thus you don't have to clog your deck with otherwise dead wincons). I thought about writing a primer on Oona, but never got around to it, and then I stopped playing EDH.

[Malakai]

In regular EDH it is Zur, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. You know what happens when I swing with Zur? I put Necropotence into play, and the next turn I win the game.

In 1v1, Vendillion Clique is the _second_ best. The best deck, that never loses to clique, is Thrun.

[socialite]

In regular EDH it is Zur, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. You know what happens when I swing with Zur? I put Necropotence into play, and the next turn I win the game.

I would assume so if you play against a bunch of no brains lacking spot removal and ya know... answers. Personally I find Zur pretty overrated in a competent group; as far as combo control is concerned I find Oona to be much better.

[jjjoness']

In regular EDH it is Zur, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. You know what happens when I swing with Zur? I put Necropotence into play, and the next turn I win the game.

In 1v1, Vendillion Clique is the _second_ best. The best deck, that never loses to clique, is Thrun.

That is not entirely true. We used to run a EDH 1on1 league. I wanted to be a dick so I chose Clique. I won every single game until I had to face Thrun. I really was about to just scoop to him, but as it turns out it's far from an autolose. You have a 7 turn clock, while Thrun has a 6 turn clock, that starts ticking one turn later without acceleration.

Besides: Clique ownes everything but Thrun. Thrun ownes Clique but otherwise is a shitty deck.
Game one I opened a bunch of counters and Mystical Tutor. I somewhat owned him by just attacking with Clique, then tutoring for Evacuation. Clique on Thrun, game.
Game 2 was really close but I stalled with Minamo untaps Clique, block Thrun, bounce Clique in resp. Got me there.

I don't say this will happen very often, Thrun still is a shitty matchup but you have plenty of outs against Thrun. It is all about tempo. All you have to do is buy one turn and you will probably win the game.

[Amon Amarth]

I would assume so if you play against a bunch of no brains lacking spot removal and ya know... answers. Personally I find Zur pretty overrated in a competent group; as far as combo control is concerned I find Oona to be much better.

After playing some of these decks a bit I've had similar experiences with Azami and Azusa. I'm completely underwhelmed by both of them with only Godo, repping Kamigawa Block, keeping it real and actually being badass.

I cringe when I imagine people avoiding cards like Swords or Drain because "spot removal is bad". I like to pretend playgroups like that don't exist.

[bokwinkle]

The problem is that when people build their EDH decks they can't adjust for meta, so their choices for removal have to be extremely versatile and scale-able (lightning bolt won't generally get you there) - and it helps if they generate card advantage...since a 1 for 1 at a table with 3+ players means that you just gave someone else card advantage. Also, people are forced to load more recursion into their decks to deal with every player packing board-wipes or combos that wipe boards - so a 1 for 1 (like say a vindicate) won't even get rid of the really troublesome cards. Plus...a swords won't get you there against a competent control OR combo player anyway, since they probably won't rely on one creature that they can't find a way to sac so they can reccur.

All of that being said, spot removal is important in EDH....just like any other format. But it just so happens that in EDH people are less likely to have it in their opening hand in a 1v1 matchup because spot-removal isn't run at nearly a high percentage in EDH as it is in any of the other other formats. And the chances of the spot removal being truly relevant aren't as good.

[The Big Ragu]

I think it all boils down to Arcum, Sharuum, Zur, and Azami. They are the 4 I consider to be tier 1.

Teferi I think is as close as you can get to being tier 1.

[bruizar]

Besides the obvious picks already mentioned, i like saffi eriksdotter. fun times with loyal retainers and any comes into play effect. Also Sisay.

i also have a lady sun for my mono U control

[Kuma]

I think it all boils down to Arcum, Sharuum, Zur, and Azami. They are the 4 I consider to be tier 1.

Teferi I think is as close as you can get to being tier 1.

Why not Oona, Queen of the Fae?

Go here and tell me that this deck isn't tier-one: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23284-EDH-Oona-Queen-of-the-Fae

[Offler]

Why not Oona, Queen of the Fae?

Go here and tell me that this deck isn't tier-one: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23284-EDH-Oona-Queen-of-the-Fae

When it comes to comparation with Teferi...

I tried similar strategy as you with either Memnarch and Laquatus. After some games I cannot tell whether it is better to search for card which is able to drain mana instantly, or to have possibility to cast creatures instantly while oponnent cannot cast aby spell.

Apparently having general as Oona gives easier and faster oportunity to use infinite mana. You need less cards to startup a combo and less tutoring. So I have to agree with you. If Teferi is close to tier 1, Oona surely belongs to this group.

[andrewlb]

Our friend, in an attempt to make a new edh deck built skullbriar. As it turns out, 1v1, the deck is actually insane. Our playgroup is made up of competitive combo decks/control decks and skull briar actually just stomps on everything. The power level of your win condition + discard/card advantage crushes other decks surprisingly well.

[mrjumbo03]

Griselbargain might deserve some consideration.

[Offler]

So much that i have heard rumours of him to be banned (since its yawgmoth's bargain on a legs...)

Avacyn Restored and EDH - there is a lot of great cards or generals, a lot of great cards coming up, but really some of them look like an attempt to destroy the format. There is a lot of "going to be banned" candidates.

Cavern of Souls. In standard its a card which supports multicolored tribal decks. In EDH its pure autoinclude with intention "my general is uncounterable".

[Nihil Credo]

Our friend, in an attempt to make a new edh deck built skullbriar. As it turns out, 1v1, the deck is actually insane. Our playgroup is made up of competitive combo decks/control decks and skull briar actually just stomps on everything. The power level of your win condition + discard/card advantage crushes other decks surprisingly well.In your group, do you play with 30 life for 1v1?

[kombatkiwi]

In your group, do you play with 30 life for 1v1?

I'm pretty sure this guy is just trolling because I can't see any reason why he would be better than any other G/B general.

[Offler]

Some people like to build up decks which are very similar to Type 2 aggro construction (similar cardpool, while avoiding cards with higher mana costs)

I mean:
1st turn
Land + Mox Diamond/chrome mox = Attacking skullbriar -1

2nd turn (oponnent played island and brainstormed)
Another unblocked attack. -2

3rd (oponnent cast his first creature)
Doom blade, another unblocked attack of skullbriar, -3

And so on. Chances of killing slow decks are quite good, and yes - there are playgroups which have 30 life. Most of such decks dont have late-game or backup plan, but still can have good win/loss ratio.

But right now I can hardly imagine combo deck around him...

[dahcmai]

Griselbrand is a stupidly broken general. You just ramp into him and start blowing people out. It's not even all that hard to do with the typical Syphon Mind type suite and such to keep people disrupted enough until you hit the mana. If you cast him, you flat win. That's all there is too it. He's definitely at the top of my list for bonkers.

Riku isn't too shabby either. He's one that people haven't mentioned. He's just mana intensive.

[Leviawan]

I'm surprized, thanks!

[TheAardvark]

Having played with and against him a good amount, I am firm in my belief that it's Griselbrand and not really close. If he isn't banned, I'll probably legit stop playing the format for a while, which means I'll more or less stop playing the game, since it's pretty much all I play anymore.

If he goes through the June update without getting banned (which I expect, given statements by Sheldon Menery since he was spoiled), if you plan on playing any EDH events at GenCon, make sure you prep for it, because it will be worse than Erayo was at last year's events.

[Tacosnape]

Zur is my number one.

Don't get me wrong, Griselbrand's pretty boss hog, if that's even a term. Costing 8 makes him a -little- less broken. Even though you can ramp into him, it keeps me from ranking him higher than Zur, the king of stupids. If I see a Zur deck and a Griselbrand deck both sit down, I'm going to pay attention to Zur first. Grisel and Rafiq are my 2/3. Been destroyed by Rafiq too many times by too many players not to fear it.

Griselbrand, however, is a much much easier deck to build well financially. Which means it shows up a lot more.

Other guys who don't get the attention they deserve:

1. Multani, Maro-Sorcerer. I swear, I'm the only guy who plays this guy. And I just don't get it. I keep one-shotting people on the backs of Bellowing Tanglewurm, Overwhelming Stampede, or them just not having a guy out by turn 3-4. The stupidity with Garruk, Primal Hunter and Greater Good is a real thing, too.

2. Jhoira of the Ghitu. Jhoira would be tier 1 if 95% of the people that played magic weren't awful at magic. Instead, Jhoira draws a lot more hate than commanders like Azami/Azusa/Teferi/Oona, just because you can usually sort of see how far Jhoira is from killing you. Good players can see how close the others are, but bad players tend to leave them alone until it's too late.

3. Arcanis the Omnipotent. Doesn't get the respect he deserves due to Azami and Teferi, but Arcanis has his own barrage of infinite combos that play out a little differently, and he's incredibly badass if you don't have any sort of combo going at the time he hits and are just playing piles of amazing blue stuff.

4. Sakashima the Impostor. Lots of fun in an Eldrazi/Griselbrand heavy metagame.

EDIT: I also play Vish Kal, and love him to death, but won't argue that he's anywhere other than an underrated mid tier 2 guy.

SECOND EDIT: Also, I agree that Cavern of Souls should be banned.

[socialite]

With the addition of Cavern of Souls I adjusted my Karn list to include only Golem. It's quite strong however I'd argue people actually attempt to run spot removal for both creature and lands as both paths are stronger then people give them credit for and help circumvent Cavern.

I suppose one could make that argument for any broken card but I have difficulty swallowing banning Cavern when there are far more gross offenders (Mind Over Matter anyone?).

Plus I'm not sure how receptive the RC would be to banning something that prevents Tucking; a mechanic so many people bitch about regardless of how obviously necessary it is.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm glad Godo got some love in here. He's ridiculous. There's very few people that have beaten that deck consistently without playing specific hosers to beat him.

[Tacosnape]

Plus I'm not sure how receptive the RC would be to banning something that prevents Tucking; a mechanic so many people bitch about regardless of how obviously necessary it is.

Preventing tucking is WHY I don't like Cavern. Tucking is such a necessary part of Commander to me. Games are the most fun when all the broken strategies get kept in check and people have to do ridiculous desperate things to get there.

[socialite]

Preventing tucking is WHY I don't like Cavern. Tucking is such a necessary part of Commander to me. Games are the most fun when all the broken strategies get kept in check and people have to do ridiculous desperate things to get there.

I agree. My point was that there seems to be a plethora of reasonable and already played answers to Cavern; this coupled with casual hatred of tuck is why I don't see it getting the axe.

[Offler]

I suppose one could make that argument for any broken card but I have difficulty swallowing banning Cavern when there are far more gross offenders (Mind Over Matter anyone?).

Well Mind Over Matter got unbanned in Highlander two years ago for some reasons. I believe that Monoblue became less viable in that meta.

Cards with 6cmc while 4 of them are blue are not as popular as they were in the past...

Cavern of souls in EDH cripples blue. Virtually no direct removal, while a lot of counterspelling is useless (very few cards can get around it).

However as far i know I am only player in whole city who is playing it anyways... White-red combination is dominant in all formats in my location. Killing, removing, cheap creatues with some boost in power.

There are many different philosophies how to play, but I like how Meloku comments Hinder. Most players are playing reactive game. They got screwed when they found that there is nothing to react.

[Aggro_zombies]

How does Cavern of Souls cripple blue? Does no one run Wasteland/Strip Mine/Dust Bowl/Ghost Quarter/Back to Basics anymore?

EDIT: I mean, the worst I can come up with is if they name Demon and then use it to immediately cast Griselly Bear, which is pretty backbreaking to be sure, but seems unlikely unless it's a dedicated Griselly Bear deck or some sort of godawful demon tribal build.

[TsumiBand]

How does Cavern of Souls cripple blue? Does no one run Wasteland/Strip Mine/Dust Bowl/Ghost Quarter/Back to Basics anymore?

EDIT: I mean, the worst I can come up with is if they name Demon and then use it to immediately cast Griselly Bear, which is pretty backbreaking to be sure, but seems unlikely unless it's a dedicated Griselly Bear deck or some sort of godawful demon tribal build.

Strip effects are way more potent in 1v1 than in multiplayer. To Wasteland one guy's Cavern of Souls is to basically give the other players at the table card advantage. I have no compunction about Stripping a bad land in 1v1, but player three will inevitably play his, so like, then what. So really, even Back to Basics is wrong, because anyone playing Cavern of Souls is only trying to resolve their general (or, you're right, play bad tribal, but bad decks with uncounterable spells are still bad decks).

The real question then becomes "What, does no one play Geddon/Ravages/Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon anymore"?

[Tacosnape]

The real question then becomes "What, does no one play Geddon/Ravages/Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon anymore"?

Because OTHER players are bad at magic, and will target you for dropping the Blood Moon, even if it's only a minor inconvenience to that player and saving them from a bigger threat. This is not true of all players, of course, but it's true of way more than you think.

My classic example is in Multani, I used to run Chalice of the Void. I've only got 4 1-drops in the whole deck (Sol Ring, Burgeoning, Skullclamp, Sensei's Divining Top), with the occasional turn one GSZ for Dryad Arbor. Given that most commander decks I see run about 10 1-drops, I liked the ability of being able to Chalice at 1, sometimes even at 2, and do so pretty quickly off Sol Ring and/or Mana Crypt. I'd even Chaliced at 5 off Rofellos before an opponent could get 5 mana for their Commander.

I had to quit playing it, however. Because every time I dropped it, the WRONG people targeted me. Example: I was playing a 5-player game with Myself (Multani), Rafiq, Zur, Visara, and Karador. I drop Chalice at 4. This happens to shut off Visara's Lashwrithe, so Visara guy starts wailing on me, not caring that I'm saving the entire table from RAFIQ AND ZUR. Karador player draws an Elvish Piper, so Karador player tags it in a Relic Crush. Siiigh.

Ironically, though, Armageddon and Ravages of War don't suffer from this problem. Lasting minor board annoyances will cause bad players to slaughter you, but something that happens once and is just over? Players focus more on recovering than wreaking vengeance on you.

And from what I've seen, every Zur player in existence still packs these two cards.

So now, my argument on "Land destruction kills Cavern of Souls," is that killing Cavern of Souls didn't matter now. Zur and Armageddon happened. The game is 80% likely over. If Cavern of Souls hadn't existed, however, that Zur might not have hit the table. It might have been Hindered, Crumpled, etc. And maybe instead of Armageddon wiping the board, somebody would have just Tunnel Visioned his ass out of the game.

[Aggro_zombies]

Ah. See, I don't really keep track of these things because I try not to play EDH competitively.

That said, people really should run more land destruction than they do.

[Tacosnape]

Ah. See, I don't really keep track of these things because I try not to play EDH competitively.

That said, people really should run more land destruction than they do.

Agreed on all counts.

That said, I still get raged when people do incredibly terrible things.

[menace13]

I feel like people are missing out on the other really good commanders out there. Iname is a great combo deck. Animar wins on turn 4-5. Scion Of The Ur-Dragon is also very resilient. Cavern Doesn't need to be banned. There are so many more powerful cards in the format.

Armageddon and Ravages are just good cards to run in the first place because most decks ramp out hoping to land bombs. Mass LD allows a smaller deck to go big with dropping a small threat or two and nuking everything that casts spells.

[Offler]

Well banning of Cavern does not lie on fact whether its powerful or not.

Its a colorless card, producing any color of mana, which makes your general uncounterable. The reason of banning is more like for similar discussion around Senseis Divining top. Decent power level, not expensive to play and can be added to any deck.

As a result majority of players will have it in deck. And if you ask them if they have any specific reason for that they will reply in a manner "u mad? its powerful. Everyone is playing it" (which means they dont have reason of their own).

this happened several times in smaller formats and its typical for Spike players... There is nothing to argue about power level of the card, including its powers or weaknesses.

Its more about keeping the format healthy and variable. For example... Tournament organizer came with rule that you have 45 minutes to be best of three games. He could rather bring big sign with "Control decks not allowed".

[TsumiBand]

Well banning of Cavern does not lie on fact whether its powerful or not.

Its a colorless card, producing any color of mana, which makes your general uncounterable. The reason of banning is more like for similar discussion around Senseis Divining top. Decent power level, not expensive to play and can be added to any deck.

As a result majority of players will have it in deck. And if you ask them if they have any specific reason for that they will reply in a manner "u mad? its powerful. Everyone is playing it" (which means they dont have reason of their own).

this happened several times in smaller formats and its typical for Spike players... There is nothing to argue about power level of the card, including its powers or weaknesses.

Its more about keeping the format healthy and variable. For example... Tournament organizer came with rule that you have 45 minutes to be best of three games. He could rather bring big sign with "Control decks not allowed".

This is pretty fair, actually. The current overseers of EDH do show a disdain for "staples for staples sake", and additions to the banned list do not simply include things which are broken on their face but turn the game into Capture the Flag. Emrakul did this; the entire game becomes bent around dealing with the guy with Emmy in play. This argument has been used to further arguments for banning such cards as Primeval Titan and more recently Griselbrand, as simply controlling the permanent becomes the name of the game.

Furthermore, cards have been banned on the basis that they promote non-interactive game-play. Erayo is a prime example of this. And as casual-competitive as the format claims to be, it's never taken a strong stance against countermagic, which leads me to reckon that they just might consider a card which makes entire tribes - or just generals - uncounterable, with no real drawback and a clear auto-include for everyone... I wonder if it's less broken than Sol Ring on its face, and they've not banned Sol Ring. We'll see, although honestly this post has got me thinking.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with banning Sol Ring is that it doesn't actually fix the problem of whoever gets the Sol Ring gets the huge jump. It just makes it more elitist by changing Sol Ring to Mana Crypt. In good games with good players and good decks, being the only guy with Sol Ring draws attention, two players with Sol Ring end up having to focus on each other, and three players with Sol Ring means the guy without it gets overlooked in the power struggle. Also, FWIW, the metagame around here has adjusted to where EVERYBODY runs ways to deal with Sol Ring, fast. Shattering Spree, Creeping Corrosion, Mental Misstep, etc. are everywhere, and I've seen a Null Rod or two hit play.

Now, let me clarify Cavern of Souls. I don't think it needs to be banned by virtue of being too powerful. I think it should be banned because it makes the game worse overall. This isn't to say I hate the card, the way I hate cards like Collective Voyage. It just subverts the nature of the game to me. I won't be too upset if it stays around forever, but I will play it in every Commander deck, because quite honestly I love the idea of Multani being Super Thrun.

@Menace's list of overlooked commanders: I kind of agree. Animar is a monster and on the lower end of my top ten. He'd be higher, but I find I only actually LOSE to Animar when other players are too bad to figure out he's scary until it's too late. Scion also makes my top ten, for the 5-color enabling and the Moltensteel Dragon combo.

[Aggro_zombies]

for the 5-color enabling and the Moltensteel Dragon combo.
What's the Moltensteel Dragon combo?

I don't think Sol Ring should be banned either. In my experience, the card is only as powerful as the deck it's in, with an early Sol Ring out of a generally low-powered deck being much, much less threatening than a Sol Ring out of a competitive deck. Sol Ring only becomes onerous when it goes from, "I'm trying to patch up issues with my [lack of a] mana curve" to, "I'm trying to be the first person to out-broken the rest of the table."

That is, incidentally, one of the reasons why I try not to play competitive EDH.

[Davran]

Cavern of Souls is just another in a long line of powerful lands, and should be dealt with in the same way. I don't hear anyone clamoring for a ban on Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle, Academy Ruins or many, many others.

There are plenty of ways to shut down a resolved Cavern of Souls that are also uncounterable, and in a format of board wipes and plentiful spot removal dealing with a resolved creature is a pretty trivial matter.

[menace13]

@Menace's list of overlooked commanders: I kind of agree. Animar is a monster and on the lower end of my top ten. He'd be higher, but I find I only actually LOSE to Animar when other players are too bad to figure out he's scary until it's too late. Scion also makes my top ten, for the 5-color enabling and the Moltensteel Dragon combo.

I only play 1v1 on MTGO for EDH because I don't like free for alls. The format is insane. Drawing a card while going first, 40 life starts and a very small banned list. Edric is also a very fun deck to play with( Love drawing and countering).


What's the Moltensteel Dragon combo?
Firebreath on Scion becasue he gains Moltensteel ability; pay 30 life one shot for commander damage.

Cavern also diminishes the power of Clique, Tefferi and Edric.

[Aggro_zombies]

Firebreath on Scion becasue he gains Moltensteel ability; pay 30 life one shot for commander damage.
Oh. I thought there was an actual combo or something. I used to have a deck that did this, but using Hatred with Wydwen, the Biting Gale.

[Tacosnape]

The thing about Scion of the Ur-Dragon is that you only really have to pay 17 to do it, and that you don't have to ever draw a single specific card to do it. You just play him, swing, pay 2, pay the life, and get there. You ALWAYS have access to it, provided you can hit all five of your colors. Some form of Lifelink ability ices the cake, but isn't necessary. It's just that you get to one-shot a player with a guy that already enables you to play a 5-color deck and thereby the biggest pile of broken humanly possible. In other words, you use him to one-shot the guy who's going to stop whatever combo you're about to drop, then win.

[Aggro_zombies]

The thing about Scion of the Ur-Dragon is that you only really have to pay 17 to do it, and that you don't have to ever draw a single specific card to do it. You just play him, swing, pay 2, pay the life, and get there. You ALWAYS have access to it, provided you can hit all five of your colors. Some form of Lifelink ability ices the cake, but isn't necessary. It's just that you get to one-shot a player with a guy that already enables you to play a 5-color deck and thereby the biggest pile of broken humanly possible. In other words, you use him to one-shot the guy who's going to stop whatever combo you're about to drop, then win.
Sounds boring.

And when someone said "combo," I thought that involved something more complicated than, "Do what Scion normally does when you put a Moltensteel into the graveyard," hence my confusion. But Scion isn't really a hard deck to figure out, since it's either Dragons or Using The General For Its Colors (and if its the latter, you get waaaaaaaaay more style points for running Atogatog. I mean, seriously).

[Offler]

Cavern also diminishes the power of Clique, Tefferi and Edric.

Or empowers Teferi. I have tribal wizard with him as general. I want to play Cavern of souls because I have a solid list of wizards which will also benefit from the card.

Playing cavern of souls in formats where is no Commander/General looks pretty solid to me.

But in EDH: On end of your turn I cast Teferi via his flash, making him uncounterable with Cavern. Now if you have ten minutes I will show you how I win...

If player has decent tribal deck i see a reason why to play Cavern of Souls. But if he does not have any tribal theme, and he plays it only because of his EDH General. You know, I came to play, not to be annoying, boring or both... But Erayo+Cavern of souls in EDH - sick...

[TheAardvark]

I only play 1v1 on MTGO for EDH because I don't like free for alls. The format is insane. Drawing a card while going first, 40 life starts and a very small banned list. Edric is also a very fun deck to play with( Love drawing and countering).


Our local group does an EDH event every Sunday, with one of them each month being 1v1 (with a different banned list, obv). We do 30 life in order to make aggro at least somewhat playable, and it's been fine. And yes, Edric is an absolute beast in 1v1.

[menace13]

Sounds boring.

And when someone said "combo," I thought that involved something more complicated than, "Do what Scion normally does when you put a Moltensteel into the graveyard," hence my confusion. But Scion isn't really a hard deck to figure out, since it's either Dragons or Using The General For Its Colors (and if its the latter, you get waaaaaaaaay more style points for running Atogatog. I mean, seriously).

The combo part is actually the rest of the deck which can be anything, but mostly in ref to the Hermit Druid lists packed in a 5 color general that is its own combo plan c if needed(only takes up 2-3 slots in the deck Bolas, Tyrant, Moltensteel)

[Tacosnape]

The combo part is actually the rest of the deck which can be anything, but mostly in ref to the Hermit Druid lists packed in a 5 color general that is its own combo plan c if needed(only takes up 2-3 slots in the deck Bolas, Tyrant, Moltensteel)

This. Exactly.


Sounds boring.

And when someone said "combo," I thought that involved something more complicated than, "Do what Scion normally does when you put a Moltensteel into the graveyard," hence my confusion. But Scion isn't really a hard deck to figure out, since it's either Dragons or Using The General For Its Colors (and if its the latter, you get waaaaaaaaay more style points for running Atogatog. I mean, seriously).

Good Scion is 5C Broken Stuff/Combo with 1-2 spots dedicated to using Scion for alternate oneshottery. And yeah, I mean, it's boring, and has no style points. There's a million things cooler than Scion-slapping somebody. But this thread IS about brokenness, and not about style/coolness. And I think between what he does and the decks he allows you to build, Scion deserves top 5-top 10 consideration.