[Deck] Stompy Infect

[wert]

Hi all,

This is my first post here and right now I am a total n00b who has no clue about the current state of the game.

I started playing way back in early Revised, but had not played magic for more than 10 years. A couple of years back I picked up the PC Duel of the Planeswalker (DOTP) and now the new version DOTP 2012. I am hooked by the new "infect" mechanic which is almost like the old poison counters in Legends. In the old Legends, there is no way to build a playable deck base on them but with the new cards, it look possible.

My objective to first make the deck "work" in a casual environment and later as far as it can go in a competitive environment. Not very sure which standards this deck would be so do assist. :)

Stompy Infect

Idea - To get 10 poison counters within 4-5 turns
-------------------------------------------------------------
Strategy Low CMC infect creatures Pump them Up Protect them long enough to land 10 counters

Basically the cards are in 4 main groups. Lands Infect Creatures Pump-ups Protect & Utility
Main theme of the deck: Getting 10 poison counters by turn 5. Nothing more, nothing less.
The main strength of this deck is SIMPLICITY and CONSISTENCY. LESS IS MORE.

This deck just don't have the cards, time or space for any sort of combo theme.
If a card does not do what it supposed to do in the most direct manner possible, then it shouldn't be included.

At the moment, the only way to consistently give poison counters is creatures. So we must have them and have them alive to deliver the 10 magic counters.

- How to deliver the 10 counters
All our creatures are 1/1 infect, so we need the pump-ups.

- How to get to 10?
We don't have a way to do first turn attack now. (very sadly)
First turn: 0 counters. Cast your first creature and pray that it isn't countered or busted.
2nd turn: First attack.
3rd turn: 2nd attack.
4th turn: 3rd attack.
5th turn: By now, it would be very hard to land counters. Defence is up and we ran out of gas.

We have at most 3 attacks to get 10 counters in. we have a bit of help from pumps-ups so our 1/1 creatures are perfectly capable of the task. We need to 4,3,3 or 4,4,2 or 3,5,2 or 4,5,1 damages for each of the attack.

In the first 3-4 turns, we can expect the opponent to hold at the very least 1 creature removal cards, most likely it is 2-3. Likewise we need a similar number of "protect" cards in hand, which is why we need Ranger's Guile to bulk up the numbers.

Why Berserk is not included
By all means, Berserk should be a trump card in this deck with its instant trample and double power.

However, Berserk isn't an auto 4 of. Why? We can must go back to fundamentals: delivering 10 poison counters. Berserk could give us 15-20 poison counters, but it wouldn't give us 10. Berserk need at least 1 pump-up to work and any of our other pump-ups could also almost double our poison counters without the extra layer of dependency. Patterns that adds to 10..... berserk doesn't fit. Imagine getting 2 berserk in your hands and no other, if you get any 2 other pump-ups in a pair, you would be already good for the win. Not the case for berserk.
Furthermore, all the other pump-ups also have a secondary function in defence or to save a creature from bolt and other direct damage.. Berserk don't have the option.

Counterspells & Spot Removal
Counterspells just have no place in this deck at all, we are here to win fast and lose fast. Basically if they counter two of my creature, I am gg, if they don't, maybe they are. Same goes for spot removal.

4 cards deck
In the barebones, this deck is only have 4 cards:
Mana Sources Creatures Pump-ups Protect
Mana Source: Forest, Pendelhaven, Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal
Creatures: Necropede, Glistener Elf, Ichorclaw Myr, Blight Mamba
Pump-ups: Prey's Vengeance, Invigorate, Giant Growth, Rancor
Protect:Vines of Vastwood, Ranger's Guile, Apostle's Blessing

Rancor also acts as the "removal"

The cards in each category are all similar and generally effective copies. That is how CONSISTENCY for this deck is achieved. Of course some copies are just slightly better than others.

Card Choices
Mana Sources
To kill in 4-5 turns with 1/1 creatures, we need fast mana to get a "free" hit when the opponent is either still ramping or settling up his defence.

Forest Simple and clear is the best. No fetchlands.

Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal for fast mana.

Pendelhaven acts as free pump-up once every turn. +1/+2 is much much bigger than you think. Include all 4.

Creatures
You can give much poison counters without creatures physically hitting your opponent. Due to our time-line of turn 4-5, we must have a creature out on our first turn, ready to attack and deliver poison counters at turn 2. Which is why the maximum cmc of the infect creatures we would consider is 2. We don't have the best line up here, basically we are taking anything that cost 2 cmc and below. 16 creatures are needed so that we can reliably draw at least 1 in the hand. Furthermore having more creatures means you can actually afford to lose 1 of them in exchanges or removal. We don't have the best creature base here so they basically picked themselves.

Glistener Elf No other merit except it is G to cast.

Ichorclaw Myr Coupled with Rancor, this can be quite a monster which many people didn't appreciate until it is too late.

Necropede cost 2, so it is in. Gives -1/-1 counter when dead, but we don't want that.

Blight Mamba cost 2, so it is in. The regen effect is mostly useless.

Pump-Ups
These are the Pump-ups that would get our creatures big enough or evasive enough to put in those counters. AND we need trample to punch through. Combat tricks and surprise are so so important in this deck and determined the amount of success you would have with this deck.

Rancor is an important card, it is our only way to have trample. Even if it has zero element of surprise, it gives us brute force. It can't be easily picked off and you can recast it.

Invigorate is an auto-pick. +4/+4 instant, zero casting cost and in our case no drawbacks.

Prey's Vengeance is great for the flexibility. Basically, it is 2 cards in 1. You can use this card in response to a bolt and still chip in the next attack. You can also choose a different target in the next turn too.(in upkeep sadly)

These three pump-ups are the core cards, there are others that you could include in your build.

Giant Growth Nothing is wrong with this old classic, playable if you have additional slots.

Might of Old Krosa Attractively costed but is cut because it don't give us the edge in surprise or non-combat situations. As an sorcery, it would be half as good as it looked.

Groundswell looks great, quite possibly +4/+4. The problem with it is reliability. In many cases you can't be sure it would be a +4/+4 and given the low number of lands we are running, the chances are not super good. And also we can't afford to be Stifle on fetchlands.

Seal of Strength No surprise again, tips off the opponent and it feeds Goyf too.

Mutagenic Growth We have just enough mana(maybe not enough life) to pay for better choices.
Others like Barkshell Blessing and Briar Shield are dismissed for similar reasons.

Protect
Vines of Vastwood

Ranger's Guile

Apostle's Blessing

Apostle's Blessing doesn't pump up but it does give protection to combat damage and acts like pseudo-trample on attack.

Why play Stompy Infect?
Many people would dismissed it as a cheesy deck. No doubt about it and no denying that too. It is designed as such. If you are to play a cheesy deck, you might as well play one that is consistently cheesy.

For our reference, below is 4eak's findings.

I didn't believe it would be a good idea until I tried it. Pendelhaven's are an auto-4x after testing. Don't fear multiples, wasteland exists. You pretty much want 1 every game. It gives your dudes some toughness to win combat wars, as a form of card advantage often enough.

I decided to record some goldfished hands. Here is the list:

// Mana Sources - 22
4 Pendelhaven
10 Forest
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

// Infect Creatures - 16
4 Necropede
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Blight Mamba

// Pump Spells - 22
4 Prey's Vengeance
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Mutagenic Vault (not a big fan of it)

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb

This is neither the fastest build nor the most protected.

While goldfishing, I didn't look for specifically fast hands, but I did mulligan when I didn't have a creature or I didn't have the mana to play one in my opening hand.

On the play, this is very roughly what you might expect from this deck:

http://i.imgur.com/LOhUS.png

This shows my mulligans as well. I fizzled twice, and neither went towards the average. This means that 98% of the time, you get the average, and the other 2% you fizzle.

On the draw, I only looked at my 7-cards, chose mulligans, and played the hands I kept. I expect the 'on the play' stats to fill in the gap here. So, a mull-to-6 on the draw should have reasonably similar results as keeping a 7-card hand on the play (obviously, not perfect, but I'm conserving time).

So, on the draw:
http://i.imgur.com/XkQXJ.png

This looks to be a very consistent turn 3 deck, if left unchecked. It wins a lot of combat wars and has reasonable resistance to disruption. Seems like a much better deck than I thought it was going to be.

--------------------------------------
How to play it?
As there are only basically 4 cards in this deck, your opening hand should be fine most of the time, Just be sure you can cast a creature on your first turn and you are mostly good to go.

Words of Wisdom from funyun45


In my experience, the deck is incredibly consistent. You either win by turn 5 at the latest or you likely never had a shot to begin with. In fact, the deck very consistently wins by turn 4 or even 3. The problem might also lie in the way you are playing. I find a semi-conservative track the best. Don't pump a creature unless you either know your opponent doesn't have removal or you have a hexproof card at the ready with the mana available to play it. If they allow the creature to connect, you Invigorate before damage happens, and then they STP, you are not only down a creature but a valuable pump spell. Even if connecting just means putting down 1 poison counter, let it happen. When connecting, wait to unload your pump until either you can protect it with hexproof spells or you are going to alpha strike. When blocked, you obviously use Pendelhavens and smaller pump spells (like Prey's Vengeance) to win combat. Keep in mind the vast majority of most frequently played creatures in the format are small (1/1, 2/1 or 1/2), and-- trust me on this-- you can win combat against a sizable Tarmogoyf if you have to. Also, no matter who you're playing, they'll be scrambling to drop creatures early because this deck is so aggressive. That means Tarmogoyfs getting dropped as 2/3s, which is easily beatable in combat.

Also, if you are creature heavy, don't be afraid to swing all in and lose a creature or two to blocks (so long as you trade). Try to save the little pump you have for connection. Eventually, you should come out on top in the board state and can swing in unfettered.
Basically, it is as he says. Don't rush in for a quick 2nd turn kill, you can have those but only once in a while. Don't be greedy and go for an one-strike kill all the time. You have at least 3 attacks to make good those 10 counters. Any counters put on would count as a successful attack. During combat, remember to cast the protect pumps only at the end of combat phrase when the opponent had passed.

Matchups
Some matchups is a total bust right from the start but this deck would win alot more than it should because many underestimate the striking power of our 1/1 creatures and is thinking on the concept of having 20 lives instead of 10. So pray and encourage their mistakes with feints, mindgames and whatever.=)
(More to be added)

Other Interesting Cards for Future Considerations
Plague Stinger
Flensermite
Lost Leonin
Blighted Agent
Inkmoth Nexus
Tainted strike
Vampire's Bite
Virulent Wound
Virulent Swipe
Unstable Mutation
Assault Strobe
Brute Force
Reckless Charge
Colossal Might
Taunting Elf
Xantid Swarm
Spellskite
Distortion Strike
Artful Dodge
Infiltrate
Aphotic Wisps
Ebony Charm
Gruesome Deformity
Thrull Retainer
Spider Umbra
Hyena Umbra
Sejiri Steppe
Teetering Peaks
Smoldering Spires


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==============================================
Most Current Build

//Mana sources 22
10 Forest
4 Pendelhaven
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
//Creature 16
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede
4 Blight Mamba
//Pump-ups 12
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Prey's Vengeance
//Protect 10
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Ranger's Guile
2 Apostle's Blessing
//Sideboard: 15
2 Apostle's Blessing
2 Berserk
4 Nature's Claim
3 Gut Shot
4 Autumn's Veil

[Ziveeman]

Blighted Agent makes this deck. Also fast mana like Lotus Petal or Elvish Spirit Guide is necessary to accelerate your wins. Caress of Phyrexia and Carrion Call are too expensive when you have fast kill like Invigorate + Berserk.

[funyun45]

Check out 4eak's monogreen infect stompy build here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20587-Budget-Decks-My-Attempts

It is super budget (~$30 maybe) and actually quite good.

[wert]

4eak's Infect is great. Same idea but his actually works and works great.
I guess he is more clear on what he set out to achieve than my amateurish efforts. His is almost like a classic stompy but with infect creatures.

My mistake is when I couldn't win within 3-4 turns, I tried to add win conditions later (7-8 turns), which I would have most likely already lost! In doing so, I wasted precious card space with those uncastable high CMC cards and fouling up my hand.

As commented, this deck needs a much much faster start off. I do realised that but just couldn't think of the cards for that. Lotus Petal or Elvish Spirit Guide would both do nicely.

I am not too sure about Blighted Agent, sure it is a good card but I think in this sort of all-or-nothing-win-in-3-turns deck, it would be very risky to be tri-colour. 4eak's mono green's consistency stems a lot from that. Maybe G/U can do better.

I guess there is not much more to explore in Infect because of the low card count.

[wert]

I had been thinking about the infect deck especially after seeing 4eak's nice example. It seems although black has a great number of infect creatures, it might not be the most useful colour in a quick and dirty deck, win-or-lose in 4 turns deck.

In my original structure, I have 3 types of cards. Creatures, pump-up and removal. 4eak's only has 2 types, creatures and pump-up. There is simply not enough mana to go around doing creatures, pump-up and removal in the first 2-3 turns. Creatures and pump-up we must have, but removal could be replaced simply and easily without fuss by trample via rancor or other means. So, only 2 types of cards are totally essential, creatures and pump-up.

For our purposes, creatures are only useful if it can attack in the 2nd or 3rd turn. Anything that can't isn't really good for putting poison counters.

Creatures
Black
Plague Stinger
Flensermite
Green
Glistener Elf
Blight Mamba
White
Lost Leonin
Blue
Blighted Agent
Colourless
Inkmoth Nexus
Vector Asp
Ichorclaw Myr
Necropede
Plague Myr

That's about it for creatures except for Tainted strike which I think is far too inconsistent and clunky for our purposes.
The biggest block of creatures are colourless and there is not really a totally standout from any colours. Pick of the bunch would be Blighted Agent, Ichorclaw Myr, Plague Stinger, Glistener Elf and Lost Leonin. Plague Myr shouldn't be considered and I doubt we have the mana to make use of Blighted Mamba's regen.

Black and green have 2 each but blue and white have a "better" creature each. So, the choice of colours should be decided by the other type of cards we need, pump-up.

Pump-up or Buffs
There are different kinds of Pump-ups that would get our creatures big enough or evasive enough to put in those counters. AND we need trample.

First up are those straight-up pumps that don't need another card to work.
==================================================
Green
Giant Growth
Invigorate
Rancor
Might of Old Krosa
Seal of Strength
Barkshell Blessing
Briar Shield
Mutagenic Growth
Prey's Vengeance
Green is is of course the most comprehensive, the most numerous and is almost a must-pick colour for our purposes. Must-have should be Invigorate, Rancor. Next level of cards would be Might of Old Krosa, Giant Growth, Prey's Vengeance and maybe Mutagenic Growth. Seal of Strength might be good as we don't have many 1-drops to play. I think Briar Shield is another layer of risk without great benefits. We have enough creatures to play Barkshell Blessing, interesting card nevertheless.

Black
Vampire's Bite is playable but not better than what green can offer.
Virulent Swipe is nice but maybe not as relevant or as good as what green can offer.

Blue
Unstable Mutation is an old fave of mine but I don't think there is a fit.

Red
Assault Strobe is very interesting but it is a Sorcery.
Brute Force is a red Giant Growth
Reckless Charge Very nice +3/+0 with haste!

Land
Pendelhaven What 4eak used. fits to a T.

Next, we have buffs that makes our creature "unblockable"
==================================================
Blue
Distortion Strike is the top pick and with Blighted Agent main reasons to splash blue.
Writ of Passage I think this would be another very nice card. Hell, it has forecast too.
Artful Dodge Nice and cheap flashback
Infiltrate If for some reason, we want it to be an instant.
Cloak of Invisibility
Shadow Rift
Both of the above have their own advantages and disadvantages, nothing on the top of mind that would combo.

Black
A touch of fear and intimidate would make creatures unblockable as well.
Aphotic Wisps
Ebony Charm
Gruesome Deformity
Mostly works the same way but these are far from the "blockable" from blue. Probably too risky and there are better options if we are going this route. *looks Blue*

White
Protection from "colours" can also make our infect creatures unblockable, obviously works the best against mono-colour deck.
Flickering Ward It could also protect the creature against removal but it might destroy our own enchantments too. It could be clunky to run this.

Combo Pumps
Berserk should also be an auto pick as it is a one-shot winner. But we need another pump-up for it to be useful in anyway so that's another layer of dependency we can do without.
Groundswell is usable straight off the bat but would only be an upgrade to what we have if we can afford playing around with the landfall mechanics via fetchlands, Crop Rotation, etc. It could be rewarding thou so I think it is very much playable.
Scent of Ivy could be nice on the first attack if we are mono green but it would again complicated things.
Tainted Strike is interesting and would allow for more and better creature selection but there are no other instants that give infect so it would only lead to consistency problems.
Blazing Shoal A one-hit win but we must build the whole deck around this card most sensibly with blue for the whole bunch of tutors, drawing and scrying cards as well as at least 8-10 10 cmc red spells like Dragon Tyrant off my head.

The Crop Rotation Combo
Crop Rotation can be combo with a good number of cards so it have its own section. It is possible as it is an instant.
Sejiri Steppe Save your creatures OR make them unblockable
Teetering Peaks Nice +2/+0
Smoldering Spires Sleep one blocker
Gruul Turf If a retrigger is needed

BUT most of all Groundswell could possibly be +8/+8 with fetchlands. But this could shift the focus of the deck if not balanced right. Any more interesting Landfall combos?

Protect Buffs
Vines of Vastwood would be the pick as it is the most meaty.
But I have wonder if we are only using to protect the creatures Ranger’s Guile could also be considered.
Totem Armour Spider Umbra, Hyena Umbra needs to be cast beforehand but might also worked.
Thrull Retainer is a sort of totem too.

What else?
Look and see? with blue?
Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Preordain
Counter mostly with blue.
Dispel
Mental Misstep
Force Spike
Flusterstorm
Intervene
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Daze
Turn Aside
Pact of Negation
Surprisingly off colour counters.
Avoid Fate
Guttural Response
Autumn's Veil
Mana Tithe
Rebuff the Wicked

Lastly
Two cards which could potientially be included depending on the setup we choose but don't really belong to any section.
Virulent Wound
Curiosity

I do not have a solid decklist yet, hell I am still mulling over the colours. Tips and suggestions are welcome!

p.s: I think I missed a Tutoring section, suggestions please!

[Anusien]

Am fairly certain the best way to play is UG. You run Force, Daze, Blighted Agent and Gitaxian Probe as your blue spells. Maybe Brainstorm. The best pump spells after that are probably:
Invigorate
Vines of the Vastwood
Groundswell
Berserk
Unstable Mutation is cute as well

Granting trample isn't really that important because your pump spells act as removal. Plus you have Blighted Agent.

Rancor and Berserk aren't the worst to have around, but you need to be careful that you have enough pump spells that can make your guy survive a Lightning Bolt (or a Fire).

I would look into the Pauper poison lists for inspiration and a starting point. For example, see here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/3345496

[funyun45]

Am fairly certain the best way to play is UG. You run Force, Daze, Blighted Agent and Gitaxian Probe as your blue spells. Maybe Brainstorm. The best pump spells after that are probably:
Invigorate
Vines of the Vastwood
Groundswell
Berserk
Unstable Mutation is cute as well

Granting trample isn't really that important because your pump spells act as removal. Plus you have Blighted Agent.

Rancor and Berserk aren't the worst to have around, but you need to be careful that you have enough pump spells that can make your guy survive a Lightning Bolt (or a Fire).

I would look into the Pauper poison lists for inspiration and a starting point. For example, see here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/3345496

I've played 4eak's monogreen list (with just a few slots changed) a great deal. I'd like to chime in here.

It's very likely UG is the way to go. However, I'm not convinced the reason to do so has anything to do with effects beyond Brainstorm/Ponder and Blighted Agent.

Anyway, having played a lot with the deck, I can tell you Rancor is indeed absurd. One mana for +2 poison counters every turn without card disadvantage? And trample is actually very good in the deck-- remember, you can pump the trampler with other effects, drastically decreasing the efficacy of blocking them. On Ichorclaw Myr the trample effect is nuts. The only pump spell in the deck that's better is Invigorate. Trust me.

You never want to be forced to use pump to keep one of your creatures alive (although desperate times call for desperate measures). You want to save them for the beatdown. That's why every deck should run both Vines of Vastwood and Ranger's Guile. Keep in mind, the deck only runs 16 creatures. That's actually fewer than my control-oriented Deadguy deck runs. Being able to protect your creatures from removal is crucial, and both those spells can or will simultaneously pump them (for when your opponent incorrectly uses removal during your combat phase).

The deck is actually much more sophisticated than it has any right to be given the fact that its just classic stompy on acid. The reason is because the deck functions on combat tricks. This is primarily why, after lots of playtesting, I've concluded Might of Old Krosa is not that great in the deck. Good ol' Giant Growth is far better. You never want to broadcast how much poison you can put on the board any given turn. You want your opponent to sit there and consider "If I don't block, what are the chances I just lose right now?"

This is a slightly modified version of the list 4eak runs. He made it prior to Innistrad. Since that set has come out, playtesting has confirmed Ranger's Guile is money.


// Mana Sources - 23
4 Pendelhaven
11 Forest
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

// Infect Creatures - 16
4 Necropede
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Blight Mamba

// Strictly Pump Spells - 21
4 Prey's Vengeance
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Ranger's Guile
1 Giant Growth

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb

[gkraigher]

This is the deck my friend and I playtested for over a month before the Providence Grand Prix. We tested against many of the popular decks at the time and thought our deck had favorable match-ups.

When the tournament finally came, we both lost although Anthony did manage to win a grinder the day before. I believe our combined record at GP Providence was 6-8 not including byes.

Submerge wrecks this deck. Mental Misstep was in full effect at the time, but nonetheless, there is no way this deck has emerged as a threat with the newer sets and metagame. Something has to change before this deck is viable. While it has the potential to win any match-up and on top-decks, do not be fooled into believing it can be consistent enough to win a major tourney.

19 LANDS
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Tropical Island
2 Pendelhaven
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest

12 CREATURES
4 Blighted Agent
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Glistener Elf
2 Plague Stinger

22 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Invigorate
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Berserk

7 OTHER SPELLS
4 Unstable Mutation
3 Rancor

SIDEBOARD
1 Plague Stinger -- a 1 for 1 substitution over glistener elf against decks w/creatures
3 Pithing Needle
3 Nature's Claim
2 Misdirection
2 Divert
2 Darkblast
2 Spell Pierce

If I could have done that tournament over, I would have found a way to play 4 spell snare. Preferably main deck.

[4eak]

Of course your deck wasn't very consistent, you've watered it down from an aggro-combo deck to an aggro-control deck which only occasionally has the ability to alpha-strike.

If this deck is going to compete against Zoo and UR-Delver as alternatives, it simply can't afford to be running permission. Infect is strictly worse than the above options (and others) as an aggro-control deck. The only time you are controlling is when you're using hexproof pump or using pump as a form of removal in combat math. These 'control' cards aren't dead if you don't need to control, they are combo pieces in themselves.

Play mana sources, infect creatures, and pump. Pump doesn't necessarily have to be about raw +X/+X, but it does need to directly add to poison counters to some degree - Ranger's Guile and Vines of Vastwood offer you protection for the combo while also enabling it. Blue permission is protection, yes, but it lacks pump, which you dearly need.

I can agree to using permission only against combo decks which are faster. For everything else, you should be racing them.

This deck can be built to be consistent and very fast - these attributes are gained by dropping permission (and those Hierarchs, ouch). This deck certainly is not the best deck in the format, and it never will be. I'll say the same for Sligh/Burn. That said, you attain the consistency required to win tournaments with it, just as you can with Sligh/Burn.



peace,
4eak

[gkraigher]

I think that Force of Will + Unstable Mutation are better than Ranger's Guile and Vines of Vastwood.

I already had Ranger's Guile available to me as Avoid Fate. Its effectivly the same card when you play Berserk. Which is also green creature removal for your opponents attacking creatures--hence why I believe the card is better than all other green choice but invigorate.

Unstable Mutation kills peacekeeper, which is relevant.

[4eak]

Unstable Mutation is a fine card. I certainly made no argument against it.

My problem continues to be playing permission instead of creatures/pump. You did not make a case for playing Force. If you don't like Vines or Guile, then replace them with different pump spells, not permission.

[Ranger's Guile != Avoid Fate]. Hexproof is much stronger than a mere counter limited to a single instant or aura. +1/+1 is certainly relevant (the word you used before ninja-editing), even if you play Berserk. I fear you've not even playtested the card by your comments.

Berserk belongs only in the most combo-oriented versions of this deck (which your build is not). I agree that if you absolutely must play Berserk, which I think is a mistake, you'll find Guile and Vines to be weak. Again, you can replace these cards with other more tempo-oriented pump spells which have a higher pump-to-mana ratio (which is exactly what you want with Berserk).

Berserk's ability to act as creature removal is not a good argument for it. If you are removing creatures attacking you with this deck, you were already losing. Most of the time, I want to remove blockers, and a regular pump spell, e.g. Giant Growth, almost always does the same job in the time frame where this deck is viable (the early game). If you aren't consistently using Berserk to overextend your combo (and you haven't built around this), and instead you find its ability to remove opposing creatures an important feature of it, then you shouldn't be playing Berserk in your deck. Again, Berserk requires an almost pure combo build - Mutagenic Growth becomes a good card with Berserk, for example.

Your standard of 'relevance' is absurd. You think +1/+1 is irrelevant with Berserk, but the fact that "Unstable Mutation kills peacekeeper" is somehow relevant. Here (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=1&mlow=12&ylow=2011&dhigh=31&mhigh=4&yhigh=2012&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=&nomain=&side=peacekeeper&noside=&strict=on)is how many Peacekeeper's were played (I didn't even limit by tournament size) since December 1st.



peace,
4eak

[wert]

I had done some playtesting.

In the main points, I agree with what funyun45 and 4eak analysis of this deck. Ranger's Guile is an essential card that is needed to keep the creatures alive and trample via Rancor is also very important. Remember how we use Trample to substitute removal. But we are not really interested in removal, our main interest is putting in 10 poison counters. The main strength of this deck is SIMPLICITY and CONSISTENCY. LESS IS MORE.

This deck just don't have the cards, time or space for a combo theme. I ruled out running the Crop Rotation gag mainly on that reason.

Let us rehash the main theme of the deck: Getting 10 poison counters by turn 3-4.
If a card does not do that in the most direct manner possibly, it shouldn't be include. That's means I am going to strictly pass on all counters and library permission stuff, at the very least they can't involve any sort of mana.

Going to the Fundamentals
At the moment, the only way to give poison counters is creatures. So we must have them and have them alive to deliver the 10 magic counters.

- How to deliver the 10 counters
All our creatures are 1/1 infect, so we need the pump-ups.

- How to get to 10?
We don't have a way to do first turn attack now. (which is the main disappointment for me)
First turn: 0 counters. 1 creature at least.
2nd turn: First attack.
3rd turn: 2nd attack.
4th turn: 3rd attack.

Basically, we have at most 3 attacks to get 10 counters in. we have a bit of help from pumps-ups so our 1/1 creatures are perfectly capable of the task. We need to 4,3,3 or 4,4,2 or 3,5,2 or 4,5,1 damages for each of the attack. (Sorry, I am not teaching to count to 10 but it is just to illustrate in simple turns what we need)


In the first 3-4 turns, we can expect the opponent to hold at the very least 1 creature removal cards, most likely it is 2-3. Likewise we need a similar number of "protect" cards in hand, which is why we need Ranger's Guile to bulk up the numbers.

Why Berserk should be cut
Berserk has no place in this deck at all. Why? We can must go back to fundamentals: delivering 10 poison counters and how to count to 10. Berserk could give us 15-20 poison counters, but it wouldn't give us 10. Berserk need at least 1 pump-up to work and any of our other pump-ups could also almost double our poison counters without the extra layer of dependency. Patterns that adds to 10..... berserk doesn't fit. Imagine getting 2 berserk in your hands and no other, if you get any 2 other pump-ups in a pair, everything is all and good.

Counters are out
Counters just have no place in this deck at all, we are here to win fast and lose fast. Basically if they counter my creature, I am gg, if they don't, they are. Gitaxian Probe however can be interesting, able to see what the opponent have in hand can give the vital combat edge in turn 3.

4 cards deck
In the barebones, this deck is only have 4 cards:
Mana Source, Creatures, Pump-ups, Protection
If we examine funyun45 and 4eak's list which I am structurally in agreement, there are essentially only 4 cards.

Mana Source: Forest, Pendelhaven, Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal
Creatures: Necropede, Glistener Elf, Ichorclaw Myr, Blight Mamba
Pump-ups: Prey's Vengeance, Invigorate, Giant Growth, Rancor
Protect:Vines of Vastwood, Ranger's Guile

Rancor also acts as the sole "removal"

The cards in each category are all similar and generally effective copies. That is how CONSISTENCY for this deck is achieved. Of course some copies are just slightly better than others. I agree with most of funyun45's choices. Combat tricks and surprise are so so important, which is why I would cut Might of Old Krosa and Seal of Strength.(it feeds a certain green monster too) I would like to have Mutagenic Growth but I think we are mana sound enough to skip it. Groundswell which is essentially a +4/+4 if we play fetchlands.

Improvements to funyun45's decklist
There is a glaring weakness which I think I can address.

Notice that the numbers are lower in the protect section? It is almost as important as pump-ups but the numbers are lower than other "cards".I think the deck need at least 10 "copies", which is why I think Apostle's Blessing would be a nice addition. It can also serve as a "trample" which also address our lack of alternatives for trample. Of course, Apostle's Blessing is another layer of dependency but it also address two solely needed effects.
------------------------------------------------------------------
My decklist atm is almost the same with funyun45 with some minor numbers and addition of Apostle's Blessing.

But right now I am experimenting with a version with a tiny red splash, still trying to see if it can worked. The balance is still not there and I am not 100% sure if the benefits outweighs the consistency hit.

// Mana Sources 21
2 Pendelhaven
11 Forest
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

// Creatures - 14
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
2 Blight Mamba
4 Necropede

// Pump-ups - 12
2 Prey's Vengeance
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
2 Reckless Charge

// Protect - 9
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Ranger's Guile
2 Apostle's Blessing

//Thiner 4
4 Manamorphose

// Sideboard
Tormod's Crypt
Mindbreak Trap
Nature's Claim
Ratchet Bomb
Apostle's Blessing
Gut shot

I am really hoping to get the haste to squeeze out another round of combat.
==========================================================

For those who wants to play blue, I would suggest a totally different deck with a slower tempo. That would be much easier and smoother.
This is a concept amid one that I think would work but not playested in any form.

//Creatures 4
4 Blighted Agent

//Finisher 10
4 Blazing Shoal
4 Decree of Annihilation
2 Searing Wind

//Counters 12
4 Daze
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will

//Inkmote's buffs 4
4 Unstable Mutation

//Looking 11
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Lands 19
15 Island
4 Inkmoth Nexus

[lyracian]

Why Berserk should be cut
Berserk has no place in this deck at all. Why? We can must go back to fundamentals: delivering 10 poison counters and how to count to 10. Berserk could give us 15-20 poison counters, but it wouldn't give us 10. Berserk need at least 1 pump-up to work and any of our other pump-ups could also almost double our poison counters without the extra layer of dependency. Patterns that adds to 10..... berserk doesn't fit. Imagine getting 2 berserk in your hands and no other, if you get any 2 other pump-ups in a pair, everything is all and good.
I see what you are saying about Berserk; however I find that is it Trample that wins games for me and Berserk gives me extra sources of it. I also find that Berserk fits quite well with getting to 10; Berserk + Invigorate or Giant Growth & Pendlehaven/Guile. Apostle's Blessing though does look like a good card to try.

[Gocho]

Why aren't you playing evasive guys?
You can add some fetchs and duals to play 2 colors, or rainbow lands to play 3 colors.

Flying and unblockable seems better than your artifact guys.

[wert]

I see what you are saying about Berserk; however I find that is it Trample that wins games for me and Berserk gives me extra sources of it. I also find that Berserk fits quite well with getting to 10; Berserk + Invigorate or Giant Growth & Pendlehaven/Guile. Apostle's Blessing though does look like a good card to try.

That's all true, especially because berserk is an instant and can catch people out. It is a trade off to win-less and loss-less. The deck rely alot on Rancor for trample and I wished there is a better alternative.


Gocho
Why aren't you playing evasive guys?
You can add some fetchs and duals to play 2 colors, or rainbow lands to play 3 colors.

Flying and unblockable seems better than your artifact guys.
It is the same reason why we are playing with lotus petals and spirit guides. This deck has basically nothing beyond turn 4-5, no backup, no clear the board, no restart, no comebacks cards. So, it needs to be fast. Sadly, there is only a single 1-drop infect creature, which is why I am increasingly wanting to play Seal of Strength. The creature base is very limited in this build.

If there is a green Tainted Strike, the floodgates would open. :D Hexproofed 1-drops can have a field day.

[Gocho]

Maybe I didn't explain enough.
If you go:
+4 City of Brass
+4 Gemstone Mine
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Bayou
+1 Green Fetchland
+4 Blighted agent
+4 Plague Stinger

-11 Forest
-4 Ichorclaw Myr
-4 Necropede

You get evasive guys, that are better than the artifact ones. You open to wasteland and need to win fast, but anyway, your destiny is sealed at T4-T5. If you play artifact creatures, you need to get trample cards to go through your opponent blocking guys, losing poison counters with them. Multicolor manabase could brings you other options for defense or pump, but I don't search them.

[lyracian]

You get evasive guys, that are better than the artifact ones. You open to wasteland and need to win fast, but anyway, your destiny is sealed at T4-T5. If you play artifact creatures, you need to get trample cards to go through your opponent blocking guys, losing poison counters with them. Multicolor manabase could brings you other options for defense or pump, but I don't search them.
I think that is a bit extream to go for a tri-colour manbase. Adding a dask of blue for Blighted Agent & Unstable Mutation is fine athough sky-rockets the monetry cost of the deck.

Personally I think Ichorclaw Myr is a decent creature. He gets bigger if blocked which can often keep him alive. It is also fun with Berserk suddenly getting a 6/3 Trample.

[wert]

Maybe I didn't explain enough.
If you go:
+4 City of Brass
+4 Gemstone Mine
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Bayou
+1 Green Fetchland
+4 Blighted agent
+4 Plague Stinger

-11 Forest
-4 Ichorclaw Myr
-4 Necropede

You get evasive guys, that are better than the artifact ones. You open to wasteland and need to win fast, but anyway, your destiny is sealed at T4-T5. If you play artifact creatures, you need to get trample cards to go through your opponent blocking guys, losing poison counters with them. Multicolor manabase could brings you other options for defense or pump, but I don't search them.

I don't suppose I have answer to that at the moment, it could be tried out. It don't look impossible. I like Ichorclaw Myr, Necropede a bit less, both in my opinion are better than Blighted Mamba. There is almost no chance to have enough mana to trigger the regen.

What about the new additions I had made?
It seems crazy to throw in 4 Reckless Charge with just 4 Manamorphose and the Lotus Petals but I think its effect would be great if it is workable. I still can't get the right balance....anyone wants to have a go?

I think in terms of the pump-ups, I think I have settled on cutting Might of Old Krosa and Seal of Strength.
Prey's Vengeance is a card that perplexed me, I am not sure if I should take this over the regular Giant Growth or Groundswell. I am more in favour of Groundswell, but in the ideal case we wouldn't have a land to drop in the 3rd turn. I would like to add Mutagenic Growth if possible but it is tough to make room.

I am almost sold on Gitaxian Probe, it is so useful to take a look at what the opponent have in hand before you attack and it would thin the deck further too. Still need more balancing....

There are a few more cards that can be considered.
Xantid Swarm
Assault Strobe
Spellskite
All three look promising.....

[edit]One more Colossal Might. Found a trample instant...

[wert]

I am still trying to tune this deck, but the truth is that this deck cannot consistently win at turn 4-5, nor does it have the juice to go into the later turns.

In trying to make it faster, we cripple it too. It is quite frustrating as it is often 1 attack short of winning, often ending up dead or dead in the water after landing around 6-8 counters. By turn 3-4, we already have no cards in hand (no way to get more) and needing that one last push, so near yet so far.

Maybe, for the deck to be more successfully, we need to change the tempo of the deck. I have updated on the opening post, my current setup.
//Mana 20
10 Forest
2 Pendelhaven
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
//Creatures 14
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
3 Necropede
3 Blight Mamba
//Pump-ups 12
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Giant Growth
//Protect 10
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Ranger's Guile
2 Apostle's Blessing
//Thiner 4
4 Gitaxian Probe

[funyun45]

I am still trying to tune this deck, but the truth is that this deck cannot consistently win at turn 4-5, nor does it have the juice to go into the later turns.

In trying to make it faster, we cripple it too. It is quite frustrating as it is often 1 attack short of winning, often ending up dead or dead in the water after landing around 6-8 counters. By turn 3-4, we already have no cards in hand (no way to get more) and needing that one last push, so near yet so far.

Maybe, for the deck to be more successfully, we need to change the tempo of the deck. I have updated on the opening post, my current setup.

Obviously this isn't, nor is ever likely to be, a Tier 1 deck. So against Tier 1 decks, this deck is, even with the rogue factor, likely to be facing an uphill battle. But I'd say if you're having consistency issues in the deck, it's because of some card choices. What makes Ranger's Guile and Vines of Vastwood so good is that they double as pump. Apostle's Blessing can't though. Seal of Strength is a turn 1 drop, but it takes away all information advantage. Why do you need to increase the number of turn 1 drops anyway? That's why the deck runs Lotus Petal and ESG-- to increase the probability of dropping a creature turn 1 no matter what it is.

EDIT: I see you're not running Seal of Strength anymore. However, you should not run fewer than 16 creatures. 2 more creatures are way better than Gitaxian Probe. Pendelhaven is also crazy good, a card you want every game for combat wars. +2. It also makes Prey's Vengeance far, far better, and, overall, a better choice than Giant Growth. You can turn a 1/1 into a 4/5 two turns in a row rather than just into a 4/4 one turn. This is another reason I like Prey's Vengeance. It allows you to pump in order to win combat and then, next turn, also get some pump in when (hopefully) connecting. Giant Growth can't do that.

In my experience, the deck is incredibly consistent. You either win by turn 5 at the latest or you likely never had a shot to begin with. In fact, the deck very consistently wins by turn 4 or even 3. The problem might also lie in the way you are playing. I find a semi-conservative track the best. Don't pump a creature unless you either know your opponent doesn't have removal or you have a hexproof card at the ready with the mana available to play it. If they allow the creature to connect, you Invigorate before damage happens, and then they STP, you are not only down a creature but a valuable pump spell. Even if connecting just means putting down 1 poison counter, let it happen. When connecting, wait to unload your pump until either you can protect it with hexproof spells or you are going to alpha strike. When blocked, you obviously use Pendelhavens and smaller pump spells (like Prey's Vengeance) to win combat. Keep in mind the vast majority of most frequently played creatures in the format are small (1/1, 2/1 or 1/2), and-- trust me on this-- you can win combat against a sizable Tarmogoyf if you have to. Also, no matter who you're playing, they'll be scrambling to drop creatures early because this deck is so aggressive. That means Tarmogoyfs getting dropped as 2/3s, which is easily beatable in combat.

Also, if you are creature heavy, don't be afraid to swing all in and lose a creature or two to blocks (so long as you trade). Try to save the little pump you have for connection. Eventually, you should come out on top in the board state and can swing in unfettered.

[wert]

EDIT: I see you're not running Seal of Strength anymore. However, you should not run fewer than 16 creatures. 2 more creatures are way better than Gitaxian Probe. Pendelhaven is also crazy good, a card you want every game for combat wars. +2. It also makes Prey's Vengeance far, far better, and, overall, a better choice than Giant Growth. You can turn a 1/1 into a 4/5 two turns in a row rather than just into a 4/4 one turn. This is another reason I like Prey's Vengeance. It allows you to pump in order to win combat and then, next turn, also get some pump in when (hopefully) connecting. Giant Growth can't do that.
Prey's Vengeance has been a card that has perplexed me. I can't make up my mind about it, I have been changing it up with Giant Growths. I guess if I should do as you suggested and use it in the role of saving my creature and think of it as 2 cards. Apostle's Blessing can save you from a stp or pte, gftt etc as well as used in an attack route. I think it is a card that could be used or at least sideboarded.


In my experience, the deck is incredibly consistent. You either win by turn 5 at the latest or you likely never had a shot to begin with. In fact, the deck very consistently wins by turn 4 or even 3. The problem might also lie in the way you are playing. I find a semi-conservative track the best. Don't pump a creature unless you either know your opponent doesn't have removal or you have a hexproof card at the ready with the mana available to play it. If they allow the creature to connect, you Invigorate before damage happens, and then they STP, you are not only down a creature but a valuable pump spell. Even if connecting just means putting down 1 poison counter, let it happen. When connecting, wait to unload your pump until either you can protect it with hexproof spells or you are going to alpha strike. When blocked, you obviously use Pendelhavens and smaller pump spells (like Prey's Vengeance) to win combat. Keep in mind the vast majority of most frequently played creatures in the format are small (1/1, 2/1 or 1/2), and-- trust me on this-- you can win combat against a sizable Tarmogoyf if you have to. Also, no matter who you're playing, they'll be scrambling to drop creatures early because this deck is so aggressive. That means Tarmogoyfs getting dropped as 2/3s, which is easily beatable in combat.

Also, if you are creature heavy, don't be afraid to swing all in and lose a creature or two to blocks (so long as you trade). Try to save the little pump you have for connection. Eventually, you should come out on top in the board state and can swing in unfettered.
I think you hit the nail on the head on this one. In many instants, I am forced to waste the pumps to save my creatures, as I can't really afford to trade. I have to be very careful not to lose every creature because I am unlikely to draw another thus I used more "protect" cards. A creature would be much useful than a protect card, at least it can "work" alone. The problem with Pendelhaven is that I hate to draw another when I already got one. They are very useful for sure, in fact deadly. +1 can sneak up quick. The part about playing style is spot-on too, I guess I am too impatient and going for the old berserk stompy strikes more than I should.

Gitaxian Probe, however can be quite useful intelligence if we can afford to squeeze 1-2 in.

Actually, if I look deeper into it, the deck itself is not inconsistent. It is just inconsistent in winning. But some match-ups are almost impossible to start with, so it is more of a limitation of the deck.

I must thank you for some great insights and pointing out some of my flawed choices.

[4eak]

If it helps give you perspective:


I didn't believe it would be a good idea until I tried it. Pendelhaven's are an auto-4x after testing. Don't fear multiples, wasteland exists. You pretty much want 1 every game. It gives your dudes some toughness to win combat wars, as a form of card advantage often enough.

I decided to record some goldfished hands. Here is the list:

// Mana Sources - 22
4 Pendelhaven
10 Forest
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

// Infect Creatures - 16
4 Necropede
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Blight Mamba

// Pump Spells - 22
4 Prey's Vengeance
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Mutagenic Vault (not a big fan of it)

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb

This is neither the fastest build nor the most protected.

While goldfishing, I didn't look for specifically fast hands, but I did mulligan when I didn't have a creature or I didn't have the mana to play one in my opening hand.

On the play, this is very roughly what you might expect from this deck:

http://i.imgur.com/LOhUS.png

This shows my mulligans as well. I fizzled twice, and neither went towards the average. This means that 98% of the time, you get the average, and the other 2% you fizzle.

On the draw, I only looked at my 7-cards, chose mulligans, and played the hands I kept. I expect the 'on the play' stats to fill in the gap here. So, a mull-to-6 on the draw should have reasonably similar results as keeping a 7-card hand on the play (obviously, not perfect, but I'm conserving time).

So, on the draw:
http://i.imgur.com/XkQXJ.png

This looks to be a very consistent turn 3 deck, if left unchecked. It wins a lot of combat wars and has reasonable resistance to disruption. Seems like a much better deck than I thought it was going to be.


I think I made a small error or two when I did this, but it isn't a big deal. Note that the above build is a different build than what I use right now. For reference, here is what I've got:

// Mana Sources - 22
10 Forest
4 Pendelhaven
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

// Infect Creatures - 16
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blight Mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede

// Strictly Pump - 16
4 Prey's Vengeance
4 Giant Growth
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate

// Protection Pump - 6
2 Ranger's Guile
4 Vines of Vastwood

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ranger's Guile
SB: 2 Apostle's Blessing
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Dismember

It is still pretty similar to the build in the quote, obviously. They are similar enough that the chart should give you a decent idea of what to expect when playing unhindered.

On a different note, Gitaxian Probe needs to be cut. Sure, you can gain information advantage when you use it, but you also lose information advantage when it comes to mulligans (gauging the value of opening hands is pretty vital to any combo deck).



peace,
4eak

[wert]

If it helps give you perspective:

On a different note, Gitaxian Probe needs to be cut. Sure, you can gain information advantage when you use it, but you also lose information advantage when it comes to mulligans (gauging the value of opening hands is pretty vital to any combo deck).


It sure does! I am quite satisfied with current setup now.

I am on Pendelhaven's side now too. It really helps in combat with the +2 toughness, and 1 free poison counter every turn is nothing to sniff at. In a situation when you have low card counts and need every one of them to win, that sort of free pumps is invaluable.

I would cut Gitaxian Probe from my sideboard, you are right that it does messed up the all important first 7 cards. Not knowing what you have is worse than not knowing what the opponent has.

Another point is that I find Apostle's Blessing to be a good card in the setup. It is very versatile on both attack and defence. In attack, it acts like a trample that can break deadlocks, in defence not only effective against stp, doomblade etc but also combat damage itself.

My updated list is in the OP.

[wert]

I have edited the opening post into a readable one and condense the ideas into sections.

Anyone has any contributions to the sideboard or match ups sections so that I can round this up?

What did I miss out?

[remcodeman]

Hey,

Last saturday was a legacy tournament at the local gamestore, nothing to serious, but 28 people attending. Didn't want to play my dredge deck when i woke up (hangover) so browsed the internet for a deck that was a bit more rogue. Found this thread and decided to buy the cards on the spot, sleeve it and give it a spin. In total it costed me € 53,65 including sleeves so really nice if u just want to try something out. I used the deck that 4eak posted for reference of cards.

The deck perplexed me in consistancy and the: "mmmm i think it's gameover comments from my opponents" Don't have an exact tournament report, but i'll try to summarize my experiences.

First game against Show&tell Emrakul. 2-0
I kept a hand with forest, pendelhaven, glistener elf, invigorate, invigorate, ichorclaw myr and vines. I won the roll and played forst elf. He played tomb, petal show & tell... luckily i had a second creature in hand and attacked for lethal on turn 2.
I didn't side in anything and just rolled with the main deck. He decided to start and mulled down to 6. played fetch. My hand was forest, forest, rancor, glistener elf, mamba, growth, and ranger's guile. Drew a pendelhaven. Cast elf, he brainstormed at eot and played a tundra hesistated a bit and decided to pass the turn. I drew a pendelhaven, played it attacked with my elf and cast mamba. On his turn he played a fetch again and went s&t. He layed down emrakul and i only had a forest to play. On my turn i drew a invigorate and attacked for lethal (top deck hero yay! haha)

Game Two: Belcher 1-2
This game frustrated me, he went of three times in turn one....... He only lost cause of a misplay on his part where he casted a belcher with zero mana in his pool and his LED still in his hand. Discarded the elf and reclaimed the belcher. on which he scooped.

Game Three: Stoneblade 2-0
Again nuts hand on my part: Forest, petal, myr, invigorate, invigorate, vines, mamba. Turn 1 forest, petal, myr. She played a fetch and passed. i Drew a guide and attacked played invigorate, invigorate she cracked the fetch to find scrubland and decided to stp my dude on which i could play my vines with kicker for lethal. Didn't know she was playing this deck so decided not to side and she had like 12 cards coming in. Game two was a bit dull i kept a hand with forest, forest, elf, pendelhaven, growth, ranger's guile and necropede (first time i seen that dude in my hand). She started with a fetch and passed. I played forest elf. She cracked to find a scrubland eot and played a tundra with bitterblossom. On the draw i got forest (just my luck) attacked with my dude and connected for 1 and played necropede. She played a wastedland and a second bitterblossom. This went on for three turns and all i got was forest, forest, pendelhaven. She was blocking my dudes like a champ and eventually tapped to play stoneforge and liliana. She used the +1 and i gladly discarded a forest. On the draw i saw rancor and could happily connect for a few poisons. She used the -2 to get rid of on of my creatures and played a sword (can't remember which one). On the draw i saw a myr and attacked with my elf. Played the myr and she used the -2 again with no other play on her part. Played the rancor on the myr and attacked for lethal.

last game before top 8. scooped
Played against against a B/U/W control something. Can't be sure what it was. On game one i won turn three and after that had to forfeit, cause the dude that was with me wa really sick so had to drop. The guy i was up against said that he most likely would have lost due to no real answers for the explosiveness of this deck.

At home i decided to goldfish the deck quite a bit and it's really consitant with it's power. Though the main problem i encountered while goldfishing is that the initial seven + 2 cards u most likely will get are really important for the consistancy. If u get 2 lands in your opener and 2 lands on the draw it's going downhill really fast. Mulligans are also really hard to take cause it reduced the explosiveness by a truckload.

I'm not sure on what to improve to reduce that chance, then by decreasing the number of lands, or would that make it to inconsistent?

Nyways! Thank you for a blast to play deck with real WTF looks on my opponent faces :-)

Cheer,

remco

[wert]

Thanks for the reports! I am glad you enjoyed it as much as I do and congratulations on your success. It is definitely bang for buck. Sometimes I am just as surprised that I won as my opponent. Tap creature to attack, huh? I won? WTF?

I have learned to accept some match ups are auto lost unless the opponent had really bad hands and draws. This deck isn't that good against people who are prepared and knows how it work. The fatal mistake is thinking that they can take "just 1" little attack and often that is the 1 attack too many. Being clever with combat tricks too be serve very well. In the sense, this is somewhat of a trick deck. All in all very fun because of how much your opponents hated it. :D

The lands issue is tricky, too few lands might lead to milligans which this deck is designed to avoid. Any Mulligan would be quite a setback. I think I am comfortable with the number of lands in my current build.

[determinacy]

Hi,

First I want to thank wert & 4eak for their posts. I have a lot of experience with legacy infect. In fact, I have won a fistful of small, local legacy tournaments in Portland, Oregon. I think that UG infect is the best. The core creatures for me are glistener elf, blighted agent, noble hierarch, and inkmoth nexus. I always play four invigorate, brainstorm and berserk. I think that ya'll are crazy for cutting berserk. The invigorate/berserk combo is the nuts draw, and you leave a mana open on turn two to respond to their response. Bounty of the Hunt is a green pump card that has not been mentioned in this thread. It seems to me that Bounty could be excellent in decks that are not playing Force of Will. Noble Hierarch is a legacy staple, and it's even better in infect. The Hierarch is an extra pump with ramp. I recommend splashing vines of vastwood, rancor, gitaxian probe, ponder and daze. Vines is an excellent card but often having two in hand is often too mana-intensive.

4 glistener elf
4 blighted agent
4 noble hierarch

4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 brainstorm
4 Lotus Petal
2 Bounty of the Hunt
2 Vines of Vastwood
2 Rancor
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder
2 Daze

4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
4 Tropical Island
10 Fetchland

Whatcha think?

[determinacy]

Hey, let's keep the dialog..

This is a strong list:

4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Tropical Island
1 Pendelhaven
7 Fetchlands

The infect creatures in this deck either land on turn one or have evasion. The green pump spells are tier one. Because one infect is comparable to two damage, invigorate has a power level beyond broken. There is a little bit of tier one utility cards and a couple counterspells. The lotus petal and elvish spirit guide are explosive and the fetchlands work well with brainstorm.

I won a Grand Prix Annapolis Trial last week and I have three wins at the national legacy tournament. I might bring my favorite infect deck.

Do you think that this is an excellent version? What should be in the sideboard?

[wert]

4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Tropical Island
1 Pendelhaven
7 Fetchlands

There are only 12 creatures if you count the manlands. If I got the maths right, you have 17.7% chance of drawing 1 in the first 7 cards, so 4 times out of 5 no creatures at the first 7 cards. It negated the setup for the fast start, you can't do anything without creatures. Also the lack of creatures, mean you can't trade or take removal.

How fast do you plan to win? It relies too much for a lucky draw and thus inconsistent. I would not considered Bounty of the Hunt, there are better options. Giant Growth or Mutagenic Growth would be better if you want 0cmc. I had explained my card preferences in the opening post.

[jares]

There are only 12 creatures if you count the manlands. If I got the maths right, you have 17.7% chance of drawing 1 in the first 7 cards, so 4 times out of 5 no creatures at the first 7 cards. It negated the setup for the fast start, you can't do anything without creatures. Also the lack of creatures, mean you can't trade or take removal.

How fast do you plan to win? It relies too much for a lucky draw and thus inconsistent. I would not considered Bounty of the Hunt, there are better options. Giant Growth or Mutagenic Growth would be better if you want 0cmc. I had explained my card preferences in the opening post.
I would like to correct the following figures for reference:

In a 60 card deck, the probability of drawing one or more of the 12 "creatures" in your opening hand (7 cards) is 80.94%.
There's another thread discussing Mono-blue Infect, and that build usually just runs 8-12 creatures while still being able to pull-off relatively OK (not impressive) winning percentages.

It's worth noting, though, that decreasing the number of creatures does increase the effectiveness of removal spells.

As for the other points in the comment above, I'd like to point out that Bounty of the Hunt causes card disadvantage in a deck that's already lacking consistency, and that Mutagenic Growth does provide the same access to a "free" spell with minimal trade-off. Bounty of the Hunt might still be worth considering, though, especially in a mono-green build, but maybe only as a 2-of at most.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Gocho]

In the Spanish Legacy Forum people are posting that UG Infect makes TOP2 in the Legacy Side-event at GP Madrid yesterday.

240 players.
Top1 was Reanimator.

I'll post the lists when our local judges upload them.

[jares]

In the Spanish Legacy Forum people are posting that UG Infect makes TOP2 in the Legacy Side-event at GP Madrid yesterday.

240 players.
Top1 was Reanimator.

I'll post the lists when our local judges upload them.
Interesting. I'll be looking forward to the lists.

Cheers,
jares

[atchaykiller]

I'm also looking forward to the list..


here's my UB infect list:

4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
4 blight mamba

4 Invigorate
2 Berserk
4 mutagenic growth
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 unstable mutation
4 dispel
2 repeal


4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Tropical Island
1 Pendelhaven
4 misty rainforest
3 scalding tarn

[jares]

I did some general testing of the following build, and the results have been surprisingly promising:

//--MAIN DECK-- = 60

//Creatures = 8
[4x] Blighted Agent
[4x] Glistener Elf
//Counterspells = 12
[4x] Force of Will
[4x] Daze
[2x] Spell Pierce
[2x] Pact of Negation
//Pump Spells = 18
[4x] Invigorate
[4x] Berserk
[4x] Mutagenic Growth
[4x] Bounty of the Hunt
[2x] Might of Old Krosa
//Draw/Utility = 4
[4x] Brainstorm
//Lands = 18
[4x] Tropical Island
[4x] Inkmoth Nexus
[3x] Windswept Heath
[3x] Wooded Foothills
[2x] Breeding Pool
[1x] Pendelhaven
[1x] Forest

//--SIDEBOARD-- = 15
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Xantid Swarm
[3x] Divert
[2x] Livewire Lash
[2x] Reverent Silence

I had a lot of fun with Turn-2 kills, though I still think that it needs a lot of work in its consistency in order for the deck to become an established archetype. I'll continue working on a build, as I'm trying to figure out a way to make the deck less dependent on impressive draws, and thus, become more resilient. The sideboard definitely needs a lot of work too.

Cheers,
jares

[Darkenslight]

I'm honestly wondering why you'd use Spell Pierce over Intervene, seeing as most of the removal used is targetting your creatures. By all means, have Pierce in the side, but I think Intervene is flat-out better for advancing your gameplan.

[jares]

I'm honestly wondering why you'd use Spell Pierce over Intervene, seeing as most of the removal used is targetting your creatures. By all means, have Pierce in the side, but I think Intervene is flat-out better for advancing your gameplan.
I did consider playing Intervene, and even Turn Aside (as this alternative would likely be better). During this testing, though, I figured that Spell Pierce was still the most versatile of the three, and its drawback of being a "soft counter" is somewhat more manageable given that the deck wants to end the game right away. I'll continue with the testing, though, and see if either of those two alternatives would be more effective (given that I'm not running any tempo or mana-denial cards).

Thanks for taking note. Any additional comments would be more than welcome.

Cheers,
jares

[remcodeman]

Hey all,

I played the monogreen version on a tournament and been toying around with the blue/green version a bit aswell. The main difference between the two is that i feel that you really need to have a different mindset. Als the choice of cards sometimes don't feel to good. Like Berserk on it's own isn't very impressive, with goldfishing on turn 3 with only Berserk in my hand wishing it was a giant growth or any other pump spell instead. Bounty of the hunt is also a 1 for 2 card. I really feel the blue/green build isn't a stompy like deck were u just win by turn 4 or scoop.

On a side note; Wouldn't Virulent Sliver work as another good solid one drop?

Kind regards,
Remco

[optml]

I'm not sure about virulent sliver. Remember that if you boost it, it will still only deal 1 poison counter. It also doesn't deal it's damage in -1/-1 counters, so it doesn't do great in battle either.

I would avoid it.

Something I was trying, sticking with the mono-green build, was including inkmoth nexus. This of course comes at a cost, and that is the loss of green. To compensate for this, I replaced vines of vastwood (as it actually requires GG to pump) with [/cards]mutagenic growth[/cards], maxed out on ranger's guiles, and replaced blight mamba's with plague myr (I didn't find I regenerated very often).

I then experimented with bounty of the hunt, by adding in land grant. This means if you have a lack of lands, land grant gets you sorted, and if not, it's fodder for bounty.

It still needs testing, so any thoughts would be appreciated.

N.B. I even tried a throne of geth or two, as it is a nice way to power through the last couple of poison. Normally it gets 2 counters on before they destroy it, and that can be all you need (how often have you got them to 8 or 9 counters, then couldn't push through). With the modified build, there're actually a fair few artifacts that can be thrown in the way (inkmoth, late-game petal, myr).



These are just ideas, so feel free to shoot them down, but it's nice to experiement.

[jares]

Hey all,

I played the monogreen version on a tournament and been toying around with the blue/green version a bit aswell. The main difference between the two is that i feel that you really need to have a different mindset. Als the choice of cards sometimes don't feel to good. Like Berserk on it's own isn't very impressive, with goldfishing on turn 3 with only Berserk in my hand wishing it was a giant growth or any other pump spell instead. Bounty of the hunt is also a 1 for 2 card. I really feel the blue/green build isn't a stompy like deck were u just win by turn 4 or scoop.

On a side note; Wouldn't Virulent Sliver work as another good solid one drop?

Kind regards,
Remco
I like that we're trying to differentiate between the game plan of the mono-green and the U/G version. I haven't had much testing using either, though, so I'll leave it to the ones with more experience to provide input.

I feel the same way about Berserk and Bounty of the Hunt, and thus, I'm trying to find a balance between explosiveness and consistency in the deck. I personally think that the cards with "Rebound" seem like a good starting point for exploration.

Unfortunately, Virulent Sliver doesn't work the way you would want it to - no matter what Virulent Sliver's power is, it will always only deal 1 poison counter per combat phase.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

I then experimented with bounty of the hunt, by adding in land grant. This means if you have a lack of lands, land grant gets you sorted, and if not, it's fodder for bounty.
I like the inclusion of Land Grant as a card that can be pitched to Bounty of the Hunt, as I've found it sub-optimal to have Bounty just to have another pump-effect pitched for it. I originally had it in my list, but I became worried by the fact that I could get mana-screwed if it were to be countered, so I replaced it with Fetches instead.

I'll do some testing to see which trade-off would be much more worthwhile.

Cheers,
jares

[lyracian]

Unfortunately, Virulent Sliver doesn't work the way you would want it to - no matter what Virulent Sliver's power is, it will always only deal 1 poison counter per combat phase.Virulent Sliver does not interact well with Pumps but it does give a method of dealing real damage against those decks that just spend all there life points. Might be worth trying out...

[wert]

I would like to correct the following figures for reference:

In a 60 card deck, the probability of drawing one or more of the 12 "creatures" in your opening hand (7 cards) is 80.94%.
There's another thread discussing Mono-blue Infect, and that build usually just runs 8-12 creatures while still being able to pull-off relatively OK (not impressive) winning percentages.

It's worth noting, though, that decreasing the number of creatures does increase the effectiveness of removal spells.

As for the other points in the comment above, I'd like to point out that Bounty of the Hunt causes card disadvantage in a deck that's already lacking consistency, and that Mutagenic Growth does provide the same access to a "free" spell with minimal trade-off. Bounty of the Hunt might still be worth considering, though, especially in a mono-green build, but maybe only as a 2-of at most.

Kind Regards,
jares

I can't remember how I arrived at that figure. Hell, probly forgot to invert it. So, I would be happy to take your figures. I would say from experience that 12 creatures isn't enough to give the required consistency in the first 7 cards. Personally, I think it would be better to have 2 creatures. It is fair enough to expect your opponent to remove 1 creature threat and with two creatures, combat tricks and trades are easier to play.

In the original mono green build, the first 7 cards are all important. It has only 4 basic cards types and most of the cards can be used in almost any combination. The first 7-8 cards should be enough to win, if it is winnable. Which is why Bounty of the Hunt is never considered, the first 7-10 cards are all precious and the cards you pitched would all be more useful if played. With all the fast mana we used, we do have mana to fire off the pumps. Imagine pitching a Giant Growth or another creature to Bounty of the Hunt, makes no sense.

The deck is based on combat tricks and most people's underestimation of how quick it can be. The last thing I want is show the opponent what I have. Land Grant is a horrible horrible card in this deck.

As for Berserk, I had addressed why it isn't included in the OP. Another thing I have addressed in the OP is counters. Why do we want to have dead cards in the draw like FOW, Daze when you can have effective counter spells like Vines of Vastwood or Ranger's Gulie which are also pumps by themselves.

I like Inkmoth Nexus but getting green mana is all important for pumps. So if included, it should count as an creature instead of a land. I do find it a bit too clunky, however.

I am convinced that mono green is the best way to go for now. Mono green looks boring and unimaginative but it works and it works consistently. I would suggest trying out the deck in the opening post and you could be surprised how often such a shallow and empty deck can catch unsuspecting people out. Splashing blue don't give you much, Blighted Agent and Distortion Strike are interesting. But they are not i-win cards, nor do they upgrade what we do have immensely.

Brainstorm is the best card in legacy and it should be included in all blue decks. However, in this deck, I would take another Giant Growth. Remember in mono green setup, there are only 4 basic cards: Lands, Creature, Pumps and Protect. There is nothing to dig for, the deck is designed to let you draw what you need naturally most of the time

And what else does blue offer? In return, we have to deal with mana problems, fetchlands stifles, wastelands? All the problems we can't afford to have in the first 5-6 turns when we can win.

The thing we have to accept is that there are some decks which this deck would auto lose to and probably anyone who figured out what we are trying to do. Discards, Burn comes into mind.

[jares]

Virulent Sliver does not interact well with Pumps but it does give a method of dealing real damage against those decks that just spend all there life points. Might be worth trying out...
I feel that the nature of the deck is already inconsistent enough, and dedicating a few slots for an "alternate" win condition might not be as helpful to the deck as one might expect. Let us know how it works for you, though.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I can't remember how I arrived at that figure. Hell, probly forgot to invert it. So, I would be happy to take your figures. I would say from experience that 12 creatures isn't enough to give the required consistency in the first 7 cards. Personally, I think it would be better to have 2 creatures. It is fair enough to expect your opponent to remove 1 creature threat and with two creatures, combat tricks and trades are easier to play.

In the original mono green build, the first 7 cards are all important. It has only 4 basic cards types and most of the cards can be used in almost any combination. The first 7-8 cards should be enough to win, if it is winnable. Which is why Bounty of the Hunt is never considered, the first 7-10 cards are all precious and the cards you pitched would all be more useful if played. With all the fast mana we used, we do have mana to fire off the pumps. Imagine pitching a Giant Growth or another creature to Bounty of the Hunt, makes no sense.

The deck is based on combat tricks and most people's underestimation of how quick it can be. The last thing I want is show the opponent what I have. Land Grant is a horrible horrible card in this deck.

As for Berserk, I had addressed why it isn't included in the OP. Another thing I have addressed in the OP is counters. Why do we want to have dead cards in the draw like FOW, Daze when you can have effective counter spells like Vines of Vastwood or Ranger's Gulie which are also pumps by themselves.

I like Inkmoth Nexus but getting green mana is all important for pumps. So if included, it should count as an creature instead of a land. I do find it a bit too clunky, however.

I am convinced that mono green is the best way to go for now. Mono green looks boring and unimaginative but it works and it works consistently. I would suggest trying out the deck in the opening post and you could be surprised how often such a shallow and empty deck can catch unsuspecting people out. Splashing blue don't give you much, Blighted Agent and Distortion Strike are interesting. But they are not i-win cards, nor do they upgrade what we do have immensely.

Brainstorm is the best card in legacy and it should be included in all blue decks. However, in this deck, I would take another Giant Growth. Remember in mono green setup, there are only 4 basic cards: Lands, Creature, Pumps and Protect. There is nothing to dig for, the deck is designed to let you draw what you need naturally most of the time

And what else does blue offer? In return, we have to deal with mana problems, fetchlands stifles, wastelands? All the problems we can't afford to have in the first 5-6 turns when we can win.

The thing we have to accept is that there are some decks which this deck would auto lose to and probably anyone who figured out what we are trying to do. Discards, Burn comes into mind.
I believe that it has already been stated that the mono-green and U/G versions seem to have different play styles. What I didn't realize, though, is that there are different threads for both versions, and this thread is for the mono-green version.

It might be worth taking note of that somewhere for future reference.

Kind Regards,
jares

[KBH]

I might play this deck this weekend. What matchups are you guys running Ratchet Bombs for? The rest of the sideboard seems obvious but I'm curious about those, mainly because I don't have them and don't care to buy them unless absolutely necessary.

[jares]

I can't remember how I arrived at that figure. Hell, probly forgot to invert it. So, I would be happy to take your figures. I would say from experience that 12 creatures isn't enough to give the required consistency in the first 7 cards. Personally, I think it would be better to have 2 creatures. It is fair enough to expect your opponent to remove 1 creature threat and with two creatures, combat tricks and trades are easier to play.

In the original mono green build, the first 7 cards are all important. It has only 4 basic cards types and most of the cards can be used in almost any combination. The first 7-8 cards should be enough to win, if it is winnable. Which is why Bounty of the Hunt is never considered, the first 7-10 cards are all precious and the cards you pitched would all be more useful if played. With all the fast mana we used, we do have mana to fire off the pumps. Imagine pitching a Giant Growth or another creature to Bounty of the Hunt, makes no sense.

The deck is based on combat tricks and most people's underestimation of how quick it can be. The last thing I want is show the opponent what I have. Land Grant is a horrible horrible card in this deck.

As for Berserk, I had addressed why it isn't included in the OP. Another thing I have addressed in the OP is counters. Why do we want to have dead cards in the draw like FOW, Daze when you can have effective counter spells like Vines of Vastwood or Ranger's Gulie which are also pumps by themselves.

I like Inkmoth Nexus but getting green mana is all important for pumps. So if included, it should count as an creature instead of a land. I do find it a bit too clunky, however.

I am convinced that mono green is the best way to go for now. Mono green looks boring and unimaginative but it works and it works consistently. I would suggest trying out the deck in the opening post and you could be surprised how often such a shallow and empty deck can catch unsuspecting people out. Splashing blue don't give you much, Blighted Agent and Distortion Strike are interesting. But they are not i-win cards, nor do they upgrade what we do have immensely.

Brainstorm is the best card in legacy and it should be included in all blue decks. However, in this deck, I would take another Giant Growth. Remember in mono green setup, there are only 4 basic cards: Lands, Creature, Pumps and Protect. There is nothing to dig for, the deck is designed to let you draw what you need naturally most of the time

And what else does blue offer? In return, we have to deal with mana problems, fetchlands stifles, wastelands? All the problems we can't afford to have in the first 5-6 turns when we can win.

The thing we have to accept is that there are some decks which this deck would auto lose to and probably anyone who figured out what we are trying to do. Discards, Burn comes into mind.
Amidst all the counterspells and draw spells that come with running blue, I believe that the main reason for the splash is to have access to the best Infect creature with evasion - Blighted Agent. The same is true for the builds that splash for black, as Plague Stinger is one of the few with built-in evasion. Glistener Elf has the distinction of being the most effective one-drop, which makes green the central color alongside all the pump spells available.

Cheers,
jares

[wert]

I believe that it has already been stated that the mono-green and U/G versions seem to have different play styles. What I didn't realize, though, is that there are different threads for both versions, and this thread is for the mono-green version.

It might be worth taking note of that somewhere for future reference.

Kind Regards,
jares

I am not objecting at all to other colour splashes in this thread. If I have had given that impression, I apologise most sincerely. In fact, I started the infect deck with a horrible BG build.

However, I just do not think Blighted Agent or Plague Stinger makes any reasonable impact.

Sure, no doubt Blighted Agent is an outstanding infect creature. However there are some good colourless infect creatures with we can happily use. Ichorclaw Myr looks harmless but is a devil once you slapped a Rancor on it. Best of it, it tends to cause opponent to avoid blocking it till it is too late. Necropede has the same effect to a much lesser degree. Blight Mamba is nothing to talk about except it cost 2 mana and it is green. However, it would put in the same number of poison counters as Blighted Agent if it gets through.

What I feel is that neither Blighted Agent nor Plague Stinger give us significant upgrades to our stated task of putting 10 poison counters. Hell, in some strange way, it might make it more difficult. It makes opponents more aware of the danger that we might actually have a way of putting in 10 counters. :D

In my opinion, blue is hardly the most attractive colour to splash. If I can somehow make it work, (which I can't), I would like to splash red for things like Reckless Charge, Assault Strobe, Colossal Might. Getting haste to hit one additional attack is huge. Even white can offer up stp and Lost Leonin.

[jares]

However, I just do not think Blighted Agent or Plague Stinger makes any reasonable impact.

Sure, no doubt Blighted Agent is an outstanding infect creature. However there are some good colourless infect creatures with we can happily use. Ichorclaw Myr looks harmless but is a devil once you slapped a Rancor on it. Best of it, it tends to cause opponent to avoid blocking it till it is too late. Necropede has the same effect to a much lesser degree. Blight Mamba is nothing to talk about except it cost 2 mana and it is green. However, it would put in the same number of poison counters as Blighted Agent if it gets through.
If I understood correctly, the points that you've stated here actually reiterate the fact that Blighted Agent and Plague Stinger are superior options when compared to the ones that have already been mentioned, as restated below:

Blighted Agent or Plague Stinger "is a devil once you slapped a Rancor on it". Best of it, it tends to cause opponent to it till it is too late.
"Necropede has the same effect to a [B]much lesser degree."
"Blight Mamba is nothing to talk about except it cost 2 mana and it is green."

I fail to understand how you could say that Blighted Agent and Plague Stinger do not make any reasonable impact even after you yourself have pointed out that they are certainly the superior options. Kindly explain.

What I feel is that neither Blighted Agent nor Plague Stinger give us significant upgrades to our stated task of putting 10 poison counters.
As noted above, you've already pointed-out the said "upgrades". It confuses me to hear you say that being able to ENSURE that a creature is unblocked is not a significant upgrade. If being able to ensure that your opponent gets poison counters via evasion is not a significant upgrade, then I don't know what is :tongue:.

Hell, in some strange way, it might make it more difficult. It makes opponents more aware of the danger that we might actually have a way of putting in 10 counters. :D
I always assume that I'm competing against a competent opponent. Having said that, I believe that any competent opponent should be aware, if not prepared, for any line of play that might come his way.

If were are to improve on this deck and eventually have it established as an archetype (or even Tier 1), then we must also be critical of the competition that we expect this deck to conquer. I find that expecting an opponent to "foolishly" decline on blocking a creature because it looks "innocent" is not something that will help us improve on the quality of the deck.

As it is, the deck is already fun to use, but if we're here to simply create a "fun deck" and not a competitive one, then do let me know, as I might be barking off the wrong tree.

In my opinion, blue is hardly the most attractive colour to splash. If I can somehow make it work, (which I can't), I would like to splash red for things like Reckless Charge, Assault Strobe, Colossal Might. Getting haste to hit one additional attack is huge. Even white can offer up stp and Lost Leonin.
I personally like Lost Leonin simply because it gives roughly twice the value for the same cost as the colorless creatures that have already been mentioned. Unfortunately, the this creature won't be able to work with Pendelhaven.

Kind Regards,
jares

[ZeinVoncy]

I've had a BG Infect deck since Infect became more viable, switching from 10 Land Stompy to Infect Stompy.

This is my current list:

Creatures: 17
4x Glistener Elf
4x Plague Stinger
3x Phyrexian Crusader
2x Putrefax
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Artifact Creatures: 4
4x Plague Myr

Instants: 11
3x Mutagenic Growth
3x Ranger's Guile
2x Vines of Vastwood
2x Invigorate
1x Berserk

Sorcerys: 4
4x Land Grant

Artifacts: 6
4x Lotus Petal
2x Lightning Greaves

Enchantments: 4
4x Rancor

Lands: 14
2x Swamp
3x Forest
3x Bayou
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs

S/B:
Non-Existent as of right now

I've wanted to add R so bad, cards I have set aside are actually
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Fires of Yavimaya
4x Assault Strobe

I just feel that any red card is slow. I will be adding another Bayou in place of the Badlands.

Granted, my list is more an "All in" setup and I have some odd choices, like Putrefax. If I'm dragged into a late game (Turn 4 or longer, he's a great push) Either him or Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon (which I just haven't gotten my hands on yet).
I'd still like to add another 2x Invigorate, 1x Vines of Vastwood, 1x Berserk and 2x Swiftfoot Boots. Cutting the Growth's and Greaves for these.

I don't see how not including Plague Stinger or Blighted Agent is a wise decision. They provide some of the ONLY evasion. Just b/c we only need to deal 10 points of dmg to a person does not mean we should rely on trying to over power your opponent. Rancor on Ichorclaw Myr and trying to run through w/e your opponents blocks with. It's a 1/1 for 2 that does nothing if not blocked. Blighted Agent is unblockable 1/1 for 2, Plague Stinger is 1/1 Flyer for 2 . . . both which do the same with Rancor as the Myr except they have evasion. I honestly don't like Glistener Elf seeing as it has no evasion, but who can resist giving away what they're playing on T1?

2 cards I've been looking at for consideration: (Going forward with BG version, other then Blighted Agent and free counters, I see no reason to use U when you're going aggro. Go UB control in that case. White is too limited to be functional on the lvl we are trying to attain)
Postmortem Lunge
Flensermite (add no evasion, but the added lifegain can be beneficial)


Questions or concerns?

[jares]

I've had a BG Infect deck since Infect became more viable, switching from 10 Land Stompy to Infect Stompy.

This is my current list:

Creatures: 17
4x Glistener Elf
4x Plague Stinger
3x Phyrexian Crusader
2x Putrefax
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Artifact Creatures: 4
4x Plague Myr

Instants: 11
3x Mutagenic Growth
3x Ranger's Guile
2x Vines of Vastwood
2x Invigorate
1x Berserk

Sorcerys: 4
4x Land Grant

Artifacts: 6
4x Lotus Petal
2x Lightning Greaves

Enchantments: 4
4x Rancor

Lands: 14
2x Swamp
3x Forest
3x Bayou
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs

S/B:
Non-Existent as of right now

I've wanted to add R so bad, cards I have set aside are actually
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Fires of Yavimaya
4x Assault Strobe

I just feel that any red card is slow. I will be adding another Bayou in place of the Badlands.

Granted, my list is more an "All in" setup and I have some odd choices, like Putrefax. If I'm dragged into a late game (Turn 4 or longer, he's a great push) Either him or Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon (which I just haven't gotten my hands on yet).
I'd still like to add another 2x Invigorate, 1x Vines of Vastwood, 1x Berserk and 2x Swiftfoot Boots. Cutting the Growth's and Greaves for these.

I don't see how not including Plague Stinger or Blighted Agent is a wise decision. They provide some of the ONLY evasion. Just b/c we only need to deal 10 points of dmg to a person does not mean we should rely on trying to over power your opponent. Rancor on Ichorclaw Myr and trying to run through w/e your opponents blocks with. It's a 1/1 for 2 that does nothing if not blocked. Blighted Agent is unblockable 1/1 for 2, Plague Stinger is 1/1 Flyer for 2 . . . both which do the same with Rancor as the Myr except they have evasion. I honestly don't like Glistener Elf seeing as it has no evasion, but who can resist giving away what they're playing on T1?

2 cards I've been looking at for consideration: (Going forward with BG version, other then Blighted Agent and free counters, I see no reason to use U when you're going aggro. Go UB control in that case. White is too limited to be functional on the lvl we are trying to attain)
Postmortem Lunge
Flensermite (add no evasion, but the added lifegain can be beneficial)


Questions or concerns?
Putrefax also interests me, though at 5-mana I feel that there might be better options. Also, I think that you'll be hard-pressed to casting it given the scarcity of your lands in the deck, though Plague Myr can definitely help with that.

I agree with wert that Land Grant isn't really something that we want to be playing given that a lot of our plays are based on combat tricks, but I'll continue to test this card to determine its viability. As of now, my main concern for it is having it countered (not by Daze please... :frown:) in the situation where I don't have any other lands in my opening hand. Otherwise, I really like the deck-thinning function.

I actually forgot that Postmortem Lunge existed, which doesn't really help me much for this deck, but gives me ideas for other stuff that I'm working on. Thanks.

Cheers,
jares

[wert]

@jares


If I understood correctly, the points that you've stated here actually reiterate the fact that Blighted Agent and Plague Stinger are superior options when compared to the ones that have already been mentioned, as restated below:

Blighted Agent or Plague Stinger "is a devil once you slapped a Rancor on it". Best of it, it tends to cause opponent to it till it is too late.
"Necropede has the same effect to a [B]much lesser degree."
"Blight Mamba is nothing to talk about except it cost 2 mana and it is green."

I fail to understand how you could say that Blighted Agent and Plague Stinger do not make any reasonable impact even after you yourself have pointed out that they are certainly the superior options. Kindly explain.

As noted above, you've already pointed-out the said "upgrades". It confuses me to hear you say that being able to ENSURE that a creature is unblocked is not a significant upgrade. If being able to ensure that your opponent gets poison counters via evasion is not a significant upgrade, then I don't know what is .
I fear your understanding is indeed not quite as I had hoped to have expressed. I beseech you to kindly consider the following clarifications.

Scrolling up to my post #47 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23116-Deck-Stompy-Infect&p=622291&viewfull=1#post622291) in this thread, it is clear that you had totally misunderstand my points. In the first of bullet points, I was addressing with reference to Ichorclaw Myr, not Blighted Agent or Plague Stinger, even as you had taken the care to paraphrase my words to fit your statement.

I was trying to point out with access to a colourless infect creature such as the Ichorclaw Myr, Blighted Agent would not be missed as much as it could. Because it is effectively Bushido 2, it is of a significant power/toughness to most turn 1-2 creatures if it is blocked. Thus. it would either killed the defending creature and survived or go unblocked. I was trying to argue that it is effectively unblockable and has a comparable practical effect to evasive creatures. Even If the opponent had chosen to block, it is likely that Ichorclaw Myr would survived as it is 3/3 minimum when blocked and the defending creature would be likely to be killed or severely reduced in statue thanks to the -1/-1 counters. In so, earning us advantage in the next attack.

If we are lucky enough to slap Rancor on Ichorclaw Myr, its effect would be even greater as it would earn us both board control and poison counters.

In the second bullet point, Nercopede's effect is compared to Ichorclaw Myr, not Blighted Agent. Many opponents would avoid killing it for fear of the additional -1/-1 counters, so Nercopede might be left unblocked at times. In fact, it is a running theme with all infect creatures, most opponents are not at all keen to block them due to the -1/-1 counters. Think Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant, tribals etc, most opponents would hesitated a little to trade their "winners" for our 1/1 infect. With that, it could be argued that all infect creatures are some sort of semi-pseudo "unblockable".

I am not at all disputing that Blighted Agent is a superior infect creature. I would surely use it if it is green or colourless. What I am saying is that with more than able substitutes available, it is not compelling enough to splash another colour just for it. It is simply not an upgrade that would decide victory or defeat. In most situations, they would not deliver a significantly out of proportion number of poison counters than any of the other infect creatures given that most of our power comes from pump-ups. Especially, if we have to take on the problems of mana screw and opening ourselves to Wasteland and Stifle. On paper, it might sound totally loony but in practice it is quite the case.

I am not against splashing any colour but it must bring in more benefits than disadvantages.


I always assume that I'm competing against a competent opponent. Having said that, I believe that any competent opponent should be aware, if not prepared, for any line of play that might come his way.

If were are to improve on this deck and eventually have it established as an archetype (or even Tier 1), then we must also be critical of the competition that we expect this deck to conquer. I find that expecting an opponent to "foolishly" decline on blocking a creature because it looks "innocent" is not something that will help us improve on the quality of the deck.

As it is, the deck is already fun to use, but if we're here to simply create a "fun deck" and not a competitive one, then do let me know, as I might be barking off the wrong tree.
I hate to burst the bubble, but I can say with confidence that at this current moment, with the cards available to us now, there isn't enough effective cards with infect to make it any more than a rogue deck in legacy. I am not saying it is not viable as an archetype, however at this moment it is clearly missing a couple of cards that would linked up the dots. Maybe some sort of "hexproofish" effect or maybe a green Tainted Strike or some sort of token infects or even just a cost effective infect creature.

With that in mind, I am trying to be as competitive as I could in the current context. This deck wins more than its fair share of matches. Why? Mostly due to its consistency and secondly many opponents are struck to the conventional thinking that they have the normal 20 lives, instead of 10, something that it is not as easy to shake off as you might think. Which is why I would be opposed to any changes that messed with its consistency without offering other comparable ways to win. I am not sure how I had given the impression that I am more keen on a "fun deck" than a competitive one. The very reason that I think changes you proposed are not worth it is that I feel it doesn't help competitively overall.

I don't know if I had explained my thoughts well enough to be understood but I would be happy to make further clarifications.

ZeinVoncy
Wouldn't the deck be a touch too slow to land a Putrefax. With its double GG and BB of Phyrexian Crusader, wouldn't mana screw be a problem?

I hope I had explained the reasoning behind why I didn't used the clearly better evasion creatures in my reply to jares above.

[ZeinVoncy]

ZeinVoncy
Wouldn't the deck be a touch too slow to land a Putrefax. With its double GG and BB of Phyrexian Crusader, wouldn't mana screw be a problem?

I hope I had explained the reasoning behind why I didn't used the clearly better evasion creatures in my reply to jares above.

I do see the reasoning and it is sound reasoning, though I just feel that splashing one color really doesn't slow it down.
As to what you and Jares say, my deck is VERY land light, but I'm able to filter out the required color with little problems. I use Land Grant as a "All-in" effort, but I wouldn't keep a hand that had for example "Lotus Petal, Land Grant, Elvish Spirit Guide, Plague Myr, Berserk, Invigorate, Glistener Elf" Game 1. Game 2 if I know the deck my opponent playing, I'd be more comfortable keeping a hand like that. But again, that's just for example.
Between the Bayous, Lotus Petals and Elvish Spirit Guides, I don't really have an issue casting Putrefax, but again it depends on the situational. At times it does just sit in my hand as a dead card, but then it's a late game changer. I'm not expecting to cast it very early, but when I do, my opponent is expecting small creatures with infect, not a big dude. I'm still playing around with other cards to use in this guys spot. Again,Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon is something I have yet to try and I would like to. Phyrexian Vatmother and Phyrexian Swarmlord are other cards worth trying as late game bombs. They work fine alone and are something to worry about with Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots. The whole purpose about the use of Putrefax is to use just in case I'm pulled into the late game, where this deck has VERY poor chances of winning.

[jares]

@jaresIn the first of bullet points, I was addressing with reference to Ichorclaw Myr, not Blighted Agent or Plague Stinger, even as you had taken the care to paraphrase my words to fit your statement.
I understood your post perfectly, but I believe that I was unable to clearly state what I was trying to illustrate. I was simply showing that all the points presented for Ichorclaw Myr (and the other cards) were also applicable to Blighted Agent and Plague Stinger, not to mention that these two cards can even do better. It seems that we are both in agreement that Blighted Agent is the superior creature, though, so I guess we've cleared that up.

I was trying to point out with access to a colourless infect creature such as the Ichorclaw Myr, Blighted Agent would not be missed as much as it could. Because it is effectively Bushido 2, it is of a significant power/toughness to most turn 1-2 creatures if it is blocked. Thus. it would either killed the defending creature and survived or go unblocked. I was trying to argue that it is effectively unblockable and has a comparable practical effect to evasive creatures. Even If the opponent had chosen to block, it is likely that Ichorclaw Myr would survived as it is 3/3 minimum when blocked and the defending creature would be likely to be killed or severely reduced in statue thanks to the -1/-1 counters. In so, earning us advantage in the next attack.

If we are lucky enough to slap Rancor on Ichorclaw Myr, its effect would be even greater as it would earn us both board control and poison counters.
I agree with your points regarding Ichorclaw Myr, and have started making space for the card whenever possible. I wouldn't say that it's effectively unblockable, though, as his ability is more closely related to Bushido (as you have pointed out) rather than the evasion abilities such as Trample, Flying, Protection, Intimidate, or even Shadow. Take note, though, that as much as your points about Ichorclaw Myr are valid, this creature still cannot compare to the efficiency of having an evasive creature ENSURE combat damage. Rancor definitely helps, but then again, the reason for why it helps is EXACTLY because of the induced evasion.

In the second bullet point, Nercopede's effect is compared to Ichorclaw Myr, not Blighted Agent. Many opponents would avoid killing it for fear of the additional -1/-1 counters, so Nercopede might be left unblocked at times. In fact, it is a running theme with all infect creatures, most opponents are not at all keen to block them due to the -1/-1 counters. Think Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant, tribals etc, most opponents would hesitated a little to trade their "winners" for our 1/1 infect. With that, it could be argued that all infect creatures are some sort of semi-pseudo "unblockable".
Again, I understood your post, but was unable to communicate it properly. I simply wanted to point out that Blighted Agent is superior when compared to the other options presented, and we're already in agreement on that point.

I would like to restate that if we were to design our decks with the expectation that we would be against incompetent opponents that would not know "when" or "when not to" block Necropede and Ichorclaw Myr, then I don't believe that we're headed towards the right direction in achieving competitiveness. To illustrate, think of the scenarios that you're considering for each of your creature choices, and assume that your opponent will ALWAYS do the correct play - if you're still able to win the exchange even after your opponent does HIS CORRECT PLAY, then you can say that you have done your part in being critical of your card choices and improving the quality of the deck.

I am not at all disputing that Blighted Agent is a superior infect creature.
Agreed.

What I am saying is that with more than able substitutes available, it is not compelling enough to splash another colour just for it.
I believe that this is our major point of disagreement. The options presented in Necropede and Blight Mamba have been underwhelming, and I definitely wouldn't say that these creatures are "more than able". Ichorclaw Myr has proven its worth in simply being situationally more powerful, but the two other options presented simply do not make the cut because they have the same cost as the best creature (Blighted Agent being the standard for 2-cost infect creatures) but have abilities that have negligible effects based on what the deck is trying to achieve (which is to deal combat damage).

If your argument was based on the fact that you're primarily trying to avoid Stifle and Wasteland because these cards are common in the Legacy meta, then I would say that that's a meaningful consideration. Unfortunately, if you're avoiding a splash based on the belief that Necropede and Blight Mamba are "more than able", then I would say that we can simply disagree on that point and move on.

It is simply not an upgrade that would decide victory or defeat.
Unfortunately, it is indeed an upgrade that would decide victory or defeat. Let me put it as simply as possible: "the deck wins by dealing combat damage, and what better way to ensure a win than by ENSURING that combat damage is dealt". I don't believe that I can put it any simpler than that. Again, if you would disagree on this, then we can just "agree to disagree" and move on.

Especially, if we have to take on the problems of mana screw and opening ourselves to Wasteland and Stifle.
Of all the points you've raised, this is the one that concerns me the most. Going mono-green lessens the vulnerability of the deck, and thus, adds to its consistency. Most Tier-1 decks have taken this to be a necessary evil, and if our strategy eventually becomes strong enough to challenge the Tier decks, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same.

As a means to manage this vulnerability, I'm currently experimenting on a build that uses as little mana as possible, similar to the build that I've posted recently.


I am not against splashing any colour but it must bring in more benefits than disadvantages.
Agreed.

I hate to burst the bubble, but I can say with confidence that at this current moment, with the cards available to us now, there isn't enough effective cards with infect to make it any more than a rogue deck in legacy. I am not saying it is not viable as an archetype, however at this moment it is clearly missing a couple of cards that would linked up the dots. Maybe some sort of "hexproofish" effect or maybe a green Tainted Strike or some sort of token infects or even just a cost effective infect creature.
Agreed. I'd like to point out, though, that this does not stop us from taking our considerations wisely. In other words, we will only be able to help build the archetype if we were to be critical of the considerations that we're making in building a deck.

I would be opposed to any changes that messed with its consistency without offering other comparable ways to win.
I have done some initial testing of the build in the opening post, and have found it to be highly inconsistent. I would also be able to provide the mathematical basis for why I'm saying this, but I would also like to inquire about how you're able to say that the build in the opening post is "consistent" (kindly note that the best way to show consistency, other than by providing the probabilities, is to show the numbers for the test results).

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

I do see the reasoning and it is sound reasoning, though I just feel that splashing one color really doesn't slow it down.
As to what you and Jares say, my deck is VERY land light, but I'm able to filter out the required color with little problems. I use Land Grant as a "All-in" effort, but I wouldn't keep a hand that had for example "Lotus Petal[cards], [cards]Land Grant[cards], [cards]Elvish Spirit Guide[cards], [cards]Plague Myr, Berserk, Invigorate, Glistener Elf" Game 1. Game 2 if I know the deck my opponent playing, I'd be more comfortable keeping a hand like that. But again, that's just for example.
Between the Bayous, Lotus Petals and Elvish Spirit Guides, I don't really have an issue casting Putrefax, but again it depends on the situational. At times it does just sit in my hand as a dead card, but then it's a late game changer. I'm not expecting to cast it very early, but when I do, my opponent is expecting small creatures with infect, not a big dude. I'm still playing around with other cards to use in this guys spot. Again,Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon is something I have yet to try and I would like to. Phyrexian Vatmother and Phyrexian Swarmlord are other cards worth trying as late game bombs. They work fine alone and are something to worry about with Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots. The whole purpose about the use of Putrefax is to use just in case I'm pulled into the late game, where this deck has VERY poor chances of winning.
It seems to me that we might be trying to build the deck via two different styles of play; I've been leaning towards a more combo-ish build, but your build seems to be more in-tune to a more beat-down approach. If this were the case, then maybe a much more permanent mana-base would benefit your build more. I like Putrefax in the beat-down type of play style, and Phyrexian Vatmother seems to agree with that direction too.

Good luck with exploring the options for your deck.

Cheers,
jares

[wert]

@jares
I have some simple questions for you. Is your deck an aggro deck or a control deck? How is it designed to work? Alpha strike or wear people out? When do you win? After 5 turns, 10 turns or 20-30 turns?

In return, I would do the same. I had stated clearly on the OP but I do so here again.

I am going for an ultra aggro deck winning by casting as many infect creatures as I could and with combat tricks put in 10 poison counters within 5-6 turns.

From my perspective, Blighted Agent is as effective as say Blighted Mamba because they have a base power of 1 and cost 2 to cast. When left unblocked in the early turns, they turn in the same number of counters.

It is not a question of "competence" of the opponent because there are not many decks that is as fast. Speed is the form of evasion for this deck. It is not a question of "competence" of the opponent when they chose to block or not. There is no correct play for the opponent, because you are one doing the plays. The opponent can only react to your plays with all the information available to him.

They do have their own gameplan to play. They wouldn't like to block with a combo piece for example, with the no poison counters on and with no visible or immediate danger. Anyone would hesitated to block with an valuable creature that is vital to their game such as Stoneforge Mystic, Delver unless they are about to lose.

When we failed to deliver poison counters, it is far more likely to be due to removal than blockers. In the first three or four turns, in most cases there are at the most 2 potential blockers, we have enought tricks to play around them. Removal is far more relevant than blockers. If Blighted Agent is hexproof instead, sure it is a card that can be decide victory or defeat, in the same vein of, say StoneForge Mystic, Dark Confidant etc. I have also to say that you have only 4 Blighted Agents, and without any kind of tutors, there could hardly be a case of it being a 1-win card.

Another point to address is this
Of all the points you've raised, this is the one that concerns me the most. Going mono-green lessens the vulnerability of the deck, and thus, adds to its consistency. Most Tier-1 decks have taken this to be a necessary evil, and if our strategy eventually becomes strong enough to challenge the Tier decks, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same. Those entire decks are legacy staples. All the 75 are the cream of the best the format can offer. You can hardly say the same for an infect deck. How can you compare the two? The basic problem that there isn't a single infect card that is a legacy staple. Furthermore, you don't need to be multi colour to be top deck. Merfolk, goblins, Burn, etc.


I have done some initial testing of the build in the opening post, and have found it to be highly inconsistent. I would also be able to provide the mathematical basis for why I'm saying this, but I would also like to inquire about how you're able to say that the build in the opening post is "consistent" (kindly note that the best way to show consistency, other than by providing the probabilities, is to show the numbers for the test results).I find this the most fascinating, I look forward your numbers and how you arrived at them. Frankly, I am astounded to believe the only deck you listed here (see below) would be more "consistent".
//jares 's decklist
--MAIN DECK-- = 60
//Creatures = 8
[4x] Blighted Agent
[4x] Glistener Elf
//Counterspells = 12
[4x] Force of Will
[4x] Daze
[2x] Spell Pierce
[2x] Pact of Negation
//Pump Spells = 18
[4x] Invigorate
[4x] Berserk
[4x] Mutagenic Growth
[4x] Bounty of the Hunt
[2x] Might of Old Krosa
//Draw/Utility = 4
[4x] Brainstorm
//Lands = 18
[4x] Tropical Island
[4x] Inkmoth Nexus
[3x] Windswept Heath
[3x] Wooded Foothills
[2x] Breeding Pool
[1x] Pendelhaven
[1x] Forest

//--SIDEBOARD-- = 15
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Xantid Swarm
[3x] Divert
[2x] Livewire Lash
[2x] Reverent Silence

Apart from the unscientific plays of my own, you could take a look at 4eak's simple goldfishing spreadsheet in the OP. It show that this build has at the very least, consistent draws and clock using a decent sample size.


EDIT: Another point I forgot to address is that, to be decently "consistent" and successful infect deck, you would need more than 12 infect creatures in the 60 cards.The bare fact of the matter is there isn't really enough infect creatures, let alone good ones. I am not saying I am particularly in love of any of my creatures choice, it is the case of making do with what we have.

[ZeinVoncy]

It seems to me that we might be trying to build the deck via two different styles of play; I've been leaning towards a more combo-ish build, but your build seems to be more in-tune to a more beat-down approach. If this were the case, then maybe a much more permanent mana-base would benefit your build more. I like Putrefax in the beat-down type of play style, and Phyrexian Vatmother seems to agree with that direction too.

Good luck with exploring the options for your deck.

Cheers,
jares

I fail to see the difference in the two. How is any deck posted here considered combo-ish? I see controlling type of infect aggro (the list wert just posted), and then straight up stompy aggro (the one I posted). Just b/c I'm running Putrefax doesn't mean I'm not as "combo-ish", I'd rather slap down a 5/3 that has all the built in goodness on turn 5 then almost any other creature that's just going sit there for a turn unless you waste more resources providing that creature haste, trample and some attack power. Straight up beat down is what this deck is aiming for, b/c beyond turn 5-6, the chances of us winning are reduced considerably, or at least that is how I feel.



@jares
I have some simple questions for you. Is your deck an aggro deck or a control deck? How is it designed to work? Alpha strike or wear people out? When do you win? After 5 turns, 10 turns or 20-30 turns?

In return, I would do the same. I had stated clearly on the OP but I do so here again.

I am going for an ultra aggro deck winning by casting as many infect creatures as I could and with combat tricks put in 10 poison counters within 5-6 turns.


I'm all about Alpha strike, b/c when you try to wear ppl out, they are better suited for the mid-long range games. Infect decks are not at the point where they are able to grind ppl out. (Even with all the proliferate cards out there) Maybe Standard, sure, but unless it's Blightsteel Colossus, I don't have much faith.

[jares]

@jares
I have some simple questions for you. Is your deck an aggro deck or a control deck? How is it designed to work? Alpha strike or wear people out? When do you win? After 5 turns, 10 turns or 20-30 turns?

In return, I would do the same. I had stated clearly on the OP but I do so here again.

I am going for an ultra aggro deck winning by casting as many infect creatures as I could and with combat tricks put in 10 poison counters within 5-6 turns.

Its good that you asked, as it's becoming apparent that having that differentiation is important in these discussions.

I believe that the build that I'm trying to construct is more combo than aggro - it's designed to end the game in as few combat phases with as few creatures as possible. As of the moment, the Fundamental Turn seems to be at Turn 2.

I now understand why you've been insisting on the points that you've stated, and I believe that the differences in our arguments are really because of the fact that we're trying to apply different game plans. Thanks for clarifying that.


From my perspective, Blighted Agent is as effective as say Blighted Mamba because they have a base power of 1 and cost 2 to cast. When left unblocked in the early turns, they turn in the same number of counters.
Understood. Based on what you're trying to achieve as an aggro deck, I now understand what you mean by saying that "Blighted Agent is as effective as say Blight Mamba".

It is not a question of "competence" of the opponent because there are not many decks that is as fast. Speed is the form of evasion for this deck.
I believe that what you might really mean by this is that "loading-up on creatures is the form of evasion for this deck". Either that, or I might have misunderstood.


When we failed to deliver poison counters, it is far more likely to be due to removal than blockers. In the first three or four turns, in most cases there are at the most 2 potential blockers, we have enought tricks to play around them. Removal is far more relevant than blockers. If Blighted Agent is hexproof instead, sure it is a card that can be decide victory or defeat, in the same vein of, say StoneForge Mystic, Dark Confidant etc. I have also to say that you have only 4 Blighted Agents, and without any kind of tutors, there could hardly be a case of it being a 1-win card.
As I've previously mentioned, the combo play style wants to win with as few combat phases as possible. Having evasion helps lessen the number of combat phases required by ensuring that the creature will deal combat damage during an attack - and one creature + one combat phase is the best case for this deck.

I also see now that, for your deck, the added evasion might not matter as much, given that you expect to win using around 5-6 combat phases anyway.

Another point to address is this Those entire decks are legacy staples. All the 75 are the cream of the best the format can offer. You can hardly say the same for an infect deck. How can you compare the two? The basic problem that there isn't a single infect card that is a legacy staple. Furthermore, you don't need to be multi colour to be top deck. Merfolk, goblins, Burn, etc.
I agree with you in that the state of Infect Decks cannot be compared to those of Tier-1 decks. What I was trying to point out, though, is that the deck-building standard I hold for my Tier-1 decks is the same standard that I apply in building my developmental decks. I find that, if I were to lower the standard and use the excuse that "the deck is still under development", then the development of the new deck would definitely be sub-par.

At the end of the day, this might just be me. My goal is to bring the Infect Deck to the point where it's able to compete against the Tier Decks, and I won't be able to achieve that if I don't apply the same critical thinking I use in fine-tuning the established decks. If that critical thinking leads me to conclude that the deck cannot be developed further, then I would have also done my job.

I find this the most fascinating, I look forward your numbers and how you arrived at them. Frankly, I am astounded to believe the only deck you listed here (see below) would be more "consistent".[cards]
Kindly note that I have not claimed that the list I posted is more "consistent". In fact, I also criticized that list for its lack of consistency in several areas. Also, this isn't really "my" list, as I took the list from one of the tournament articles and replaced Mental Misstep with the other counterspells available. The sideboard is completely mine, though, but I didn't really put too much thought into it.

I'll post the figures as soon as I have the time to do some number-crunching. That might help with what we're trying to achieve here.

Apart from the unscientific plays of my own, you could take a look at 4eak's simple goldfishing spreadsheet in the OP. It show that this build has at the very least, consistent draws and clock using a decent sample size.
I'm not sure that I'd be comfortable with basing the consistency of my deck on Goldfishing results. The problem with that approach is that it does not take into account %100 of the possible scenarios. I'd be happy to do some Goldfishing in testing the general coherence of a particular build, but in terms of fine-tuning, I prefer to rely on the math. At this point, I might be in the misconception that I'm already fine-tuning, so do correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: Another point I forgot to address is that, to be decently "consistent" and successful infect deck, you would need more than 12 infect creatures in the 60 cards.The bare fact of the matter is there isn't really enough infect creatures, let alone good ones. I am not saying I am particularly in love of any of my creatures choice, it is the case of making do with what we have.
I believe that this is also related to the discussion regarding the combo game-plan. As I've previously noted, having 12 creatures in the deck provides roughly an 80% chance for us to get a creature in the opening hand (I personally think that a probability of 75% is the bare minimum for me to say that something is "consistent", though this is really a subjective preference), and one creature is all I really need. Removal is obviously one of our main concerns, which is why I've been trying to find a balance for the "protection" spells (counterspells, hexproof buffs, etc.).

I've recently tested a B/G build, and have also found promising results from it - it loses badly to removal though, much worse when compared to the U/G build I posted (it seems that the counterspells really do help). I've also created a mock-build for my own version of a U/G build, but I haven't had the time to test it. I'll post some results when I have the time.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

I fail to see the difference in the two. How is any deck posted here considered combo-ish?

I see controlling type of infect aggro (the list wert just posted), and then straight up stompy aggro (the one I posted).
Combo decks, by definition, want to win the game quickly by playing a combination of cards that would end the game - thus, the term "combo". You would usually spot a combo deck running Invigorate + Berserk, as these two cards end the game in a single combat phase using minimal resources.

I hope that helps.

Just b/c I'm running Putrefax doesn't mean I'm not as "combo-ish"
Combo decks rely on streamlining on a linear strategy. Unfortunately, if Putrefax does not contribute to the linear strategy that you're working with, then the card will only present some inconsistencies in the deck.

I'd rather slap down a 5/3 that has all the built in goodness on turn 5 then almost any other creature that's just going sit there for a turn unless you waste more resources providing that creature haste, trample and some attack power. Straight up beat down is what this deck is aiming for, b/c beyond turn 5-6, the chances of us winning are reduced considerably, or at least that is how I feel.
That's all good, which is why I pointed out that it seems that what you're trying to achieve is based on an aggro game-plan. I haven't explored that route yet, but it does sound like mono-green is the safest configuration for that play style.

Cheers,
jares

[lyracian]

I am not at all disputing that Blighted Agent is a superior infect creature. I would surely use it if it is green or colourless. What I am saying is that with more than able substitutes available, it is not compelling enough to splash another colour just for it. It is simply not an upgrade that would decide victory or defeatI agree that the Black/Blue creature are better than Blighted Mamba and, possibly, Necropede. The problem is the coloured mana to cast them. I am not worried about the cost of Duals since I have them but the opportunity cost of Wateland, Blood Moon or just being stuck with the wrong colour land in hand. This is a very low land deck; it can win with a single forest but not if that land get destoyed.

I still like the idea of Virulent Sliver just because it is another green one drop. I can not access the comprehensive rules from work but I think Poisonous stacks? So two Slivers would each have Poisonous 2. It also gives the deck a method of dealing real damage should the opponent spend a lot of life. I have killed one players with a Berzerked Pumped Elvish Spirit Guide.


I like Inkmoth Nexus but getting green mana is all important for pumps. So if included, it should count as an creature instead of a land. I do find it a bit too clunky, however.I had also been thinking about it. However, as you said, it is almost useless as a land since it does not produce green. As a creature it has a one mana upkeep, evasion and the ability to dodge Sorcery speed removal. The flying is nice so I might test out one on MWS and see how it plays.

[ZeinVoncy]

What are the thoughts on using Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots?

@ jares
I understand where you're coming from now. So in essence, my deck is a semi-comboish and beat down. The more Berserks I acquire and add the more combo-ish I become.

[jares]

What are the thoughts on using Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots?

I haven't done any testing on these cards, but it seems to me that what we're getting from there cards is underwhelming based on what we're paying for them. These might fit well with the beat-down plan, though, as Haste will definitely provide a different dimension to the deck.

@ jares
I understand where you're coming from now. So in essence, my deck is a semi-comboish and beat down. The more Berserks I acquire and add the more combo-ish I become.
I guess that it won't be wrong to say that the central mechanism for the combo really is Berserk. In fact, it really functions as a combo card in that it's not really able to contribute too much if it isn't "combined" with another card to facilitate the combo. More important than just the choice of cards, though, is the play style of how these cards would be played to exercise being a combo deck.

Cheers,
jares

[lyracian]

What are the thoughts on using Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots?
I do not like Greaves since it gives Shroud and we want to pump our creatures. Boots could help when drawing a creature late in the game.


I understand where you're coming from now. So in essence, my deck is a semi-comboish and beat down. The more Berserks I acquire and add the more combo-ish I become.I run two Berserk's in my deck and like them for the suprise Trample factor wonderful on Ichorclaw. :eek:

[KBH]

Played this deck yesterday at Star City Tampa. Would never play it without 3-4 Berserks except for the cost factor. I lost one game/match to Berserk not being a Giant Growth, but that pales compared to the games I won with Krosa+Berserk or Invigorate+Berserk where I only had one attack phase before I lost to them stabilizing.

Also, I don't think 16 Infect creatures is really enough. In addition to the staple poisoners I used a few Plague Myr and Inkmoth Nexus.

I played just one Pendelhaven since having 2 copies as my only lands counts as mana screw and because its too easy to just lose the game if they Wasteland.

I started 4-0 and got all the way to table 1 but then I faded with a combination of poor matchups, poor draws and just the fact that every deck can explode for wins in Legacy.

The only thing I would radically change is the sideboard since I almost never wanted to substitute 4 cards. So I would run mostly 2s and 3s in the SB. I lost to enchantress and I think there is probably room to play the free 6 life sweeper since Nature's Claim seems too little.

Finally, on the ranking of Vines of Vastwood, Apostle's Blessing, and Ranger's Guile, I think the order is as listed. Apostle's giving unblockability is just so strong sometimes.

My list was roughly

4 Inchorclaw Myr
4 Glistener Elf
4 Necropede
4 Blight Mamba
1 Plague Myr

4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood

2 Apostle's Blessing

4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

11 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
2 Inmoth Nexus

4 Nature's Claim
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Bounty of the Hunt
1 Apostle's Blessing

I should've played a few more forests -- I foolishly convinced myself that Inkmoth's kinda sorta doubled as almost extra land. I don't know which graveyard hate is best, I had 3 Tormod's and threw in one more hate card but didn't run into Dredge.

I played 2xMaverick, Affinity, Goblins, Enchantress, UWStoneforge, and another deck that I forget

[wert]

@KBH
What is your final record? Which decks did you lost to and which you won easily? Give a report. :D

As for Berserk, it wins games for sure. It is not a bad thing but it is a three card combo which can complicated things. It is just that the games won with Berserk could be and maybe would be won otherwise too with the other pump-ups. With 3 combat turns to put the 10 counters in, there is no need to rush unnecessarily especially with good protection of Ranger's Guile, Vines and Apostle. You just need to put in on the average 3+ poison counters per attack, so even a single counter on an attack is fine. It keeps the opponent guessing too. It sounds crazy to go without it but I find that it works out better on the average.

16 creatures is a number I feel is at least kinda of stable, 1-2 more can't hurt but there are just no good choices.

Pendelhaven is also something I struggled with and it is rough to have multiples. But it is deceptively powerful, I would ride out the risk of wastelands and go for 4.

Reverent Silence is great against Enchantress but it is more of a meta call. In general, not too many of them around and they are already a good match up in my opinion.

I ditched Inkmoth for the same reasons and also it required some mana to make it work, the mana which you don't have or much rather use for pumps or protection or cast another creature. Hell, at least Pendelhaven give G mana.

Autumn's Veil is something I had considered long and hard too, but I find the protection to be less than comprehensive. The opponent still can use some removal in response and it gives no protection against red and white.

[P.S.]

I like the Pendelhaven. I like Livewire Lash. I'm thinking the way to go might be to cut the Spirit Guides & Lotus Petals. I don't think their consistency for a faster start outweighs that they are usually dead draws & you can trample over with Rancor/Berserk or not be blocked because of protection (via Blessing) anyway. I'm not sure. You can also run the whole Land Grant strat, which let's you play fewer lands easier because it doesn't really matter if your opponent knows if you have pump or not most games.

A lot of games you get to like seven or eight poison counters & then peter out. In those situations, Livewire Lash turns all of your pump into infect Shocks. Plus it can remove blockers.

Something like this (rough draft):

CREATURES (20)
4 Virulent Sliver
4 Glistener Elf
4 Necropede
4 Blight Mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr

SPELLS (24)
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
3 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
3 Apostle's Blessing
2 Livewire Lash
4 Land Grant

LANDS (16)
2 Pendelhaven
4 Inkmoth Nexus
10 Forest

[KBH]

@KBH
What is your final record? Which decks did you lost to and which you won easily? Give a report. :D

As for Berserk, it wins games for sure. It is not a bad thing but it is a three card combo which can complicated things. It is just that the games won with Berserk could be and maybe would be won otherwise too with the other pump-ups. With 3 combat turns to put the 10 counters in, there is no need to rush unnecessarily especially with good protection of Ranger's Guile, Vines and Apostle. You just need to put in on the average 3+ poison counters per attack, so even a single counter on an attack is fine. It keeps the opponent guessing too. It sounds crazy to go without it but I find that it works out better on the average.

16 creatures is a number I feel is at least kinda of stable, 1-2 more can't hurt but there are just no good choices.

Pendelhaven is also something I struggled with and it is rough to have multiples. But it is deceptively powerful, I would ride out the risk of wastelands and go for 4.

Reverent Silence is great against Enchantress but it is more of a meta call. In general, not too many of them around and they are already a good match up in my opinion.

I ditched Inkmoth for the same reasons and also it required some mana to make it work, the mana which you don't have or much rather use for pumps or protection or cast another creature. Hell, at least Pendelhaven give G mana.

Autumn's Veil is something I had considered long and hard too, but I find the protection to be less than comprehensive. The opponent still can use some removal in response and it gives no protection against red and white.

I beat Maverick twice in grindier games, including one time where he went t2 Stonforge-->Sword rather than Jitte. Not sure it mattered, but he conceded the next turn. Both times it was 2-1 and all my losses to fast Jitte

I beat Affinity in very short order with t2/3 kills and him with, like, Vault Skirge and nothing out.

Beat a Goblins deck in three games. We took turns running over each other in the first two games and then I took a gamble with a dicey hand of Forest+ESG+Berserk+Invigorate+Bounty of the Hunt+Lotus Petal or something. Basically, if one my first two draws was an Infecter I won. I drew Necropede and won t2.

I didn't want to mull to 5 because I'd mulled to 4 one game already and I was worried that my lands might be clumped because I'd faced a bunch of Path to Exiles the previous round and had games where I had about 6 land out.

The I played Enchantress. Blew him out game 1, blown out game 2, he mulled to 4 game 3. But he topdecked a land and played WIld Growths and Elephant Grasses long enough to stabilize into his insane draw and beat me. Any Giant Growth would've won for me but I only had Berserk (which by itself is only +1) until it was too late.

Next Round I played Zoo and we traded blowouts before I had to mull 4 in game 3. It was a decent 4 if i drew a land and he was going first and I knew he had Goblin Guides..and he played Guide turn 1. But no land was forthcoming and I with nothing out.

Final round I played UW and forced a quick concession gm1. Game 2 he countered/removed a poisoner every turn for the first 5 turns.

Game 3 he desperation brainstormed into Force of Will to stop my quick Berserk and I couldn't mount another charge.

After sideboard he showed me that he had 8 Swords/Path which is hard to beat on top of his counterspells.

Autumn's Veil seems strictly anti-counterspell since it doesn't stop Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile.

I dropped rather than play rd 8 since it was 6 or 7 PM and I was out of prize contention. Disappointing since one more win probably got top 32 at least.

EDIT: three of the guys I played got 5th, 8th, and 11th place

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2012-03-04&end_date=2012-03-04&city=Tampa

[KBH]

I don't think their consistency for a faster start outweighs that they are usually dead draws & you can trample over with Rancor/Berserk or not be blocked because of protection (via Blessing) anyway. I'm not sure. You can also run the whole Land Grant strat, which let's you play fewer lands easier because it doesn't really matter if your opponent knows if you have pump or not most games.

Land Grant: no, no, no. Force of Will on it is basically game over. Also, you have to telepgraph your hand which lets them estimate how fast you can kill them. Makes a big difference as to how they play sometimes (like deciding whether to block or counter or remove vs Vines). Also, Bounty of the Hunt isn't very good which would be one benefit of Land Grant.

ESG/Petal: yes, yes, yes. They are only worse than a land if you need mana for two turns AND didn't play a land that turn. Turn 1 Infect is about 50x better than turn 2.

Livewire Lash: I intend to test this, it is obviously insanely good. Just depends on how many matchups it actually impacts.


With 3 combat turns to put the 10 counters in, there is no need to rush unnecessarily especially with good protection of Ranger's Guile, Vines and Apostle. You just need to put in on the average 3+ poison counters per attack, so even a single counter on an attack is fine. It keeps the opponent guessing too. It sounds crazy to go without it but I find that it works out better on the average.

That sounds like a turn 4 beats deck..and Zoo is already that and does the job WAY better than Infect ever could. Infect has to be turn 2-3 with the backup plan of being a beats deck, IMO. Reversing the formula where you get the occasional turn 3 and mostly turn 4s just seems too underpowered to be a competitive Legacy strategy.


16 creatures is a number I feel is at least kinda of stable, 1-2 more can't hurt but there are just no good choices.

Why don't you like Plague Myr? Tapping for 1 if desperate seems about as good as being able to regenerate for 2

[MirrorMask]

I didn't have the time to read all the comments but wouldn't it be better if you played it like a combo deck? You really need blue in there. You really play unprotected. What happens if they blow your critter s away? How do you protect them? Also you don't play blighted agent. Why not? its the best infect creature.
If you want to check a different approach to this archetype check a thread name U/G Infect in "new and developmental decks" forum.

[KBH]

I didn't have the time to read all the comments but wouldn't it be better if you played it like a combo deck? You really need blue in there. You really play unprotected. What happens if they blow your critter s away? How do you protect them? Also you don't play blighted agent. Why not? its the best infect creature.
If you want to check a different approach to this archetype check a thread name U/G Infect in "new and developmental decks" forum.

You can give creatures hexproof or protection to keep them from getting blown away

[MirrorMask]

That you can, but not for free. Force, daze and pact of negation are free on the other hand... Plus you get to run brainstorm as well as ponder if you wish(VERY important I must say-tested)

[wert]

KBH raise some good points, obviously someone who had experience playing the mono green version. I urge you, however to relook Berserk. I think I am not wrong to say that it is tough to win if you don't draw Berserk? There are only 4 and we would only see 12 cards out of 60.

First attack is 2nd turn: 1/1 creature on the board. To win in this turn, you need to hold Invigorate + Berserk to win, which is already kinda of the a perfect opening 7. But what if you only hold only 1 of them?
If you hold only berserk, there is no play. Berserk being the win-con, it might be tough to mull it away even you have no other pumps. If you hold only Invigorate, would you use it, right away or hold it to combo?

On the other hand, to win on the attack turn, I need 2 x Invigorate + Ranger's Guile, which is even more unlikely, But whatever pump-ups I get, I can use to land some counters right away. I would land at least 3 counters if unblocked, but I can also land as easily as 8. So, instead of a 1 hit KO like Berserk, I am running a 2 hit KO. Also, I would only mull if I can't cast a creature in the first turn. I noticed you have mull down quite a bit in the tournament, I think without berserk in play, it would be at least more stable. Of course having more turns means more chances for opponents to interact. I suppose there is a trade off.

I think it is right to assume that the opponent would have at least 1 removal, I had already taken that into consideration when the goal is to win in 5-6 turns.

Your experience enforced my own impressions. We would do OK against Aggro decks and those mid range ones. Hell we have a chance against Burn in game 1 at least. Tempo decks especially those with running sinkholes with the discards suites and counter-heavy mono blue ranged from tough to down right impossible.


A lot of games you get to like seven or eight poison counters & then peter out. In those situations, Livewire Lash turns all of your pump into infect Shocks. Plus it can remove blockers.
Yep, sometimes, it is so close yet so far. As the turns go by, it is harder and harder to land counters so Livewire Lash might be the magic bullet, needs some testing. Interesting find!

ESG & Lotus Petals is need to get a creature out on the first turn. With your plan with Livewire Lash, maybe you can have a slower start. But no matter what you still need a creature to equip the Lash, so I think it would be hard to take the fast mana out. I wished otherwise but I can't see how we can do without them. Land Grant is as KBH said, a terrible terrible card. In return for 1 land, we let the opponent see the danger. A good percentage of the wins comes only because the opponent is ill prepared. The worst opening to face is a turn 1 targeted discard.


That you can, but not for free. Force, daze and pact of negation are free on the other hand... Plus you get to run brainstorm as well as ponder if you wish(VERY important I must say-tested)
Force, daze and pact of negation, all of them doesn't land counters. In your opening hand, you wouldn't want to have stuff like ponder or brainstorm, you don't know if the hand is viable or not. You can either cast a creature or cast Brainstorm in turn 1. No prizes on which is the better choice. A combo style could work but in my opinion, the aggro version is more stable.

Some of your other points had been discussed in the thread, do take a look. Blighted Agent etc.

[lyracian]

First attack is 2nd turn: 1/1 creature on the board. To win in this turn, you need to hold Invigorate + Berserk to win, which is already kinda of the a perfect opening 7. But what if you only hold only 1 of them?
If you hold only berserk, there is no play. Berserk being the win-con,
That is not really true though. Berserk with any of Invigorate, MoOK or VoV give a turn two win. There are also other combinations (Rancor, Giant Growth, Invigorate) that can win on turn two. Cards like Ranger's Guile and Prey's Vengeance give the deck staying power but weaken the options of a turn two win.

Not that I think giving up on protection to focus on the turn two win is the best plan, but running Berserk gives the option of occasionally getting that turn two win. It may be a bit weak on its own but then so are a lot of our spells.

[wert]

That is not really true though. Berserk with any of Invigorate, MoOK or VoV give a turn two win. There are also other combinations (Rancor, Giant Growth, Invigorate) that can win on turn two. Cards like Ranger's Guile and Prey's Vengeance give the deck staying power but weaken the options of a turn two win.

Not that I think giving up on protection to focus on the turn two win is the best plan, but running Berserk gives the option of occasionally getting that turn two win. It may be a bit weak on its own but then so are a lot of our spells.

In essence, I agree with you totally.

The number of possible combos that Berserks into a turn win is not as high as you think. Assuming 2 things, you had gone first and the creature you cast in the first turn cost 2. After your draw, you have 5 cards, laying down a 2nd land, left you with 4 (one of them, berserk) cards and two lands and a creature on board. The possible ones without additional fast mana are only (MoOK, Berserk, x, x), or (Invigorate, Berserk, x ,x). To have additional fast mana, the first 8 cards you draw is all very specific and so that chances of drawing that kind of hand is rather low.

The other combos, the Berserk-less setup can do as well. I feel the chances on a turn 2 strike isn't that high anyway, which is why I decided to spread it out over two turns. I don't have hard data that it is the best way to go but at the very least it is a reasonable alternative.

[Gui]

What Wert says is true. And it's harder than it looks to hit a opener with a 2cc creature accelerated and 2 lands, enabling MoOK kill, too.

Mutagenic Growth and Bounty of the Hunt could increase the chance of going off on second turn, as well as a higly balanced manabase which increases the chance of having 2 mana and a creature on turn 2.

[KBH]

The turn 2 strike happens enough to be important IMO. It works with Invigorate, MoOK and Vines if you have 3 mana available (which is very possible since you don't need 3 LAND, just 3 mana)

Berserk is not there exclusively for turn 2 kills, its there for one shot kills. Sometimes the other deck has to let their guard down for one crucial turn in order to secure their long term advantage..normally, there is only one or at most two such openings in a game.

As for other cards like Mutagenic Growth, Prey's Vengeance, etc -- they are ok, but because they are less raw damage they need to serve a defensive function. The only one that stops Lightning Bolts is Bounty of the Hunt and it is too hard to support in a deck with so many non-green cards in my experience (which includes playing Bounty @ Tampa). Especially since all of your green cards tend to be business spells with the exception of excess Glisteners and Mambas (which is not terribly frequent)

If Mindbreak Trap counted the total number of spells instead of just an opponent's spells, it would be the perfect counter. You would always be able to counter their response to your Berserk and you could also counter their response to Land+Petal-->Infecter. Plus you could save your Petals for Trap purposes. Until I read the card carefully I thought I'd hit on a brilliant idea!

[lyracian]

In essence, I agree with you totally.
The number of possible combos that Berserks into a turn win is not as high as you think. Assuming 2 things, you had gone first and the creature you cast in the first turn cost 2. After your draw, you have 5 cards, laying down a 2nd land, left you with 4There are still quite a few options and you have ignore any hand where your turn one play is Elf saving your petal/ESG for the pumps.

After laying your second land your hand could be.
MoOK, Berserk, X, X
VoV, Berserk, Petal,X
Rancor, GG, Invigorate, X
Growndswell, GG, Mutagenic Growth, X

You could also have played Pendlehaven as your second land and have GG, Berserk, & Petal/ESG. Not all those pumps are necessarily worth playing however there are still plenty of options for a turn two kill.

[Gui]

It's a matter of play style, but one that should be discussed and tested. A deck tunned to kill on turn 2 has less "staying power", as you say, it has less chance to beat a control-heavy deck, and by that I mean a deck with a lot of removals, some big creatures like tarmogoyf, and counters, but it can prey on aggro decks than won't ever be that fast.
Berserk is "unfair", and as such, it loses to counterspells like the other "unfair" cards.

What should be analysed, thus, is: Which route leads to more victories?

As I see it, there are 3 possible, one being the all-in belcher-like combo, one being the slower "safe" route, and the middle route.

Being on the middle route looks promising, letting you choose when to play fast and when to slow down, but this deck has no card selection, so it won't always be possible to choose unless you balance the parts with precision, and even then maybe not possible.

[KBH]

It's a matter of play style, but one that should be discussed and tested. A deck tunned to kill on turn 2 has less "staying power", as you say, it has less chance to beat a control-heavy deck, and by that I mean a deck with a lot of removals, some big creatures like tarmogoyf, and counters, but it can prey on aggro decks than won't ever be that fast.
Berserk is "unfair", and as such, it loses to counterspells like the other "unfair" cards.

What should be analysed, thus, is: Which route leads to more victories?

As I see it, there are 3 possible, one being the all-in belcher-like combo, one being the slower "safe" route, and the middle route.

Being on the middle route looks promising, letting you choose when to play fast and when to slow down, but this deck has no card selection, so it won't always be possible to choose unless you balance the parts with precision, and even then maybe not possible.

Literally the only difference between "all-in" and the other routes is that I run Berserk instead of Prey's Vengeance. Berserk is like, I dunno, 100x better than Prey's Vengeance just thanks to the trample alone.

I'm still really skeptical on the Pendelhaven's. I know how great they are, but I'd bet 25% of games they get wastelanded, plus the legendary problem.

[lyracian]

I'm still really skeptical on the Pendelhaven's. I know how great they are, but I'd bet 25% of games they get wastelanded, plus the legendary problem.You do not really care if it gets wasted. You get mana/pump out of it before it goes to the yard and it has slowed the opponent down since they are using resources to destroy your land.


As I see it, there are 3 possible, one being the all-in belcher-like combo, one being the slower "safe" route, and the middle route.The middle route is the path to take we just all seem to disagree on where that actually lies. :smile:

I run two Berserks (because that is all I own now) and find them useful. They are a must counter spell against many decks and I can always side them out if needed and the opponent still has to play like you might have one.

[KBH]

You do not really care if it gets wasted. You get mana/pump out of it before it goes to the yard and it has slowed the opponent down since they are using resources to destroy your land.

Thats not correct since oftentimes you want two uses out of it AND because its always nice to get to three mana since Vines of Vastwood in particular is very demanding of mana

[lyracian]

Thats not correct since oftentimes you want two uses out of it AND because its always nice to get to three mana since Vines of Vastwood in particular is very demanding of mana3 Lands is nice but they have spent a land drop to destroy one of yours which puts them back just as much. It is a permanent pump that can not be countered, works just as good on defence.

[wert]

Pendelhaven is useful if you are using for 2-3 attacks, its greatest role is keeping your critters alive with combat tricks. I hate getting wasted but its impact is huge enough to take on that risk. It all depends if the opponent still have fast plays in hand, sometimes it can hurt them more than it hurt us.

If you are going for a 1 strike combo style, it isn't all that useful. I think you can leave it as 1 or even cut it altogether.

I am wondering maybe the "middle ground" is simply running 2 Berserks instead of 4? Might be the silliest idea yet but maybe it can struck a happy balance.

After laying your second land your hand could be.
MoOK, Berserk, X, X
VoV, Berserk, Petal,X
Rancor, GG, Invigorate, X
Growndswell, GG, Mutagenic Growth, X
It is part of my point too, there are ways to do a turn 2 kill without Berserk. Berserk did increase the possibility but it is still can be done with a perfect hand without it.

[lochlan]

If you are going for a 1 strike combo style, [Pendelhaven] isn't all that useful. I think you can leave it as 1 or even cut it altogether.

I disagree. If you give your dude +1/+2 then you can use a +3/+3 spell (read: Bounty of the Hunt) along with berserk for the win. It only works in the correct build, of course (e.g. it gets much worse with Rancor, which IMO isn't great in this deck--but especially as a 4-of).

Wasteland is only relevant if the only land in my opening seven is Pendelhaven (just hold it in hand until the kill turn) -- which does happen, but only occasionally.

Also, running less than 4 Berserk seems very wrong. It's the card that makes this deck (somewhat) viable, without it you just have a terrible beatdown deck.

[KBH]

I disagree. If you give your dude +1/+2 then you can use a +3/+3 spell (read: Bounty of the Hunt) along with berserk for the win. It only works in the correct build, of course (e.g. it gets much worse with Rancor, which IMO isn't great in this deck--but especially as a 4-of).

Wasteland is only relevant if the only land in my opening seven is Pendelhaven (just hold it in hand until the kill turn) -- which does happen, but only occasionally.

Also, running less than 4 Berserk seems very wrong. It's the card that makes this deck (somewhat) viable, without it you just have a terrible beatdown deck.

The trouble is that the Giant Growth pump spells (ie +3 power) are all bad. Two +4 spells lets you win in two swings. Pendelhaven can help to fix that but only if you don't have Rancor attached and only if you don't need Pendelhaven's mana.

Treating Pendelhaven as yet another one-shot mana producer also seems dodgy since the deck already has 8 and really wants to hit 2 permanent sources of mana.

I can't agree on downgrading Rancor either -- it is 100x better at helping get through blockers than Pendelhaven ever will be. Without Rancor, Infect gets noticeable worse in every matchup.

Finally, a big issue is that if you stall on one land and it is a Pendelhaven, your Invigorates are shut off.

[Gocho]

In the Spanish Legacy Forum people are posting that UG Infect makes TOP2 in the Legacy Side-event at GP Madrid yesterday.

240 players.
Top1 was Reanimator.

I'll post the lists when our local judges upload them.

As I promise, the UG Infect list at GP Madrid side-event by Olle Råde aka Sylvan Safekeeper :eek::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olle_R%C3%A5de

GP Madrid, Legacy Side Event, 240 players
Top 2: Olle Rade - Infect Stompy

// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Forest
1 Pendelhaven

// Creatures
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
2 Ichorclaw Myr
1 Necropede
3 Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
1 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Might of Old Krosa

//Sideboard
3 Gut Shot
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Nature's Claim
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Viridian Corrupter

[lyracian]

As I promise, the UG Infect list at GP Madrid side-event by Olle Råde aka Sylvan Safekeeper :eek::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olle_R%C3%A5de

GP Madrid, Legacy Side Event, 240 players
Top 2: Olle Rade - Infect Stompy

It is another Berzerk deck and I can see the value in Noble Hierarch since you are often attacking with only one creature anyway. I really must get arond to trying out 1-2 Inkmoth Nexus since the flying should really help...

[determinacy]

Hey everybody,

There have been a lot of posts in this thread since I shared my decklist last month. I played in a local 8-man legacy tournament today and I placed second. I beat white-green and blue-black-white, but I lost to a Sneak Attack/Eldrazi/Countermagic deck. I think that it is important to run some countermagic (daze) in the UG infect deck, because it is crucial to counter counterspells and counter combo cards like Sneak Attack and Belcher. The vines of vastwood card is good, but it is clear that it is not an effective answer to force of will or broken faster combos. One main difference that I see between my deck philosophy and @wert is that I think that the UG infect deck needs to win on turn 2 or 3. There is no time to win on turn 5 or 6, that's insufficient in a format as powerful as legacy. Thus, I stick to my belief that Berserk is an insanely good card. Blighted Agent is also very good. I had a situation today in which my opponent was on 9 infect and had four potential blockers but he couldn't answer the Blighted Agent.

Today, I played a deck similar to the deck that I suggested last month. I won multiple games on turn 2 with invigorate and berserk. Also, I was able to use lotus petal and elvish spirit guide to consistently cast a creature like blighted agent on the first turn. I did, however, mulligan to 4 cards in two of my games. It seemed like the deck didn't mulligan well because it needed the right ratio of spells, creatures and lands. I am the person who originally suggested Bounty of the Hunt, but I didn't play it tonight and I don't think that it is good enough. Instead, I played unstable mutation. But I like Olle Rade's decklist from Madrid and I would suggest that everybody tries it. The gixaxian probe is crucial. I played a post-board game today in which I had the potential for a turn two kill combination, but my opponent had an uncracked black-white fetchland and I didn't know if I would get 3 for 1'ed if I go for the kill. It's seriously painful when you play against a competent player who saves their instant speed removal spell (swords to plowshares) until after you player invigorate and berserk. In this situation, gixaxian probe is great! Lastly, I would like to reiterate that UG infect needs to consistently win on turn 2/3 because there are too many powerful decks in the legacy format.

GG's,
determinacy

[determinacy]

PS. How do you link a card name to the card image pop-up? Thx

[lochlan]

PS. How do you link a card name to the card image pop-up? Thx

Hey, man. FYI there is also a thread about UG infect if you weren't aware: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21232-U-G-infect

And to put the links on the cards you surround the desired card name with the strings "cards" and "/cards," each within square brackets. Just reply to my post with a quote to see the syntax: Berserk

[wert]

I am not a fan of combo based setup. Looking at the decent combo based decks, they shared some common similarities.

1)Almost all with the exception of High Tide and Hive Mind(possible?) can go off in Turn 1.
2)They have a way to dig the whole library out.
3)They are either 2 cards combos or 3 cards combos and don't required aggro (creature attack) to win.
4)They either have an alternative win con(Belcher), or heavily countered(hive mind)
5)Any more??
6)

For a infect combo-based decks to be good enough, it must at least matched some of these. I don't believe that infect combo would be better in any way than the current combo decks. If it can't be a good combo deck, why not go the other direction.

The aggro way is just as viable, due to the fact that the opponent only has 10 lives and they most likely can only find 1-2 removal in the first 12 cards. Of course, being countered is a problem but at least we would have more creatures. No need to complicate matters, a simple beat-down would do just as well. I am not really against Berserk, but I think using counters is a mistake beacause it dilutes the deck.

The choice is between a decent beatdown aggro deck or a half baked combo deck.

[lyracian]

The choice is between a decent beatdown aggro deck or a half baked combo deck.I agree with you here. This topic should just focus on the mono-green aggro deck and leave the half-baked combo to the U/G thread. I do think you should put a link in the first post to the other deck so people can find it rather keep posting here.

As far as Aggro goes though I still think running a couple of Berserks for the occasional turn two win is worth it. It might even be better with Inkmoth Nexus which is the next card I want to try out.

[lochlan]

If it can't be a good combo deck, why not go the other direction.



The choice is between a decent beatdown aggro deck or a half baked combo deck.

No, dude, the choice is between a third-rate aggro deck or a combo deck that is capable of winning the game on turns 2-3. And if you run blue then you have permission backup for your win condition. To me this sounds much better than a worse version of Zoo.

If you want to be a consistent aggro deck then you have to have a large number of efficient creatures, which the infect creature base simply cannot support. Basically your choices are Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent, and some mediocre 2-drops. So, yeah, after creature #8 you're not exactly picking from the best choices.

At least with Zoo if your dudes can't get there you have burn to finish off your opponent. The best Infect Stompy can hope for past the early turns is to wither bigger creatures and die in combat or eat StP. I don't know how much you've tested, say, the Stoneblade and Maverick matchups, but in my testing I found that if I couldn't win before turn 4 it was all over. If Stoneblade hits 4 lands you are done.

[wert]

No, dude, the choice is between a third-rate aggro deck or a combo deck that is capable of winning the game on turns 2-3. And if you run blue then you have permission backup for your win condition. To me this sounds much better than a worse version of Zoo.

If you want to be a consistent aggro deck then you have to have a large number of efficient creatures, which the infect creature base simply cannot support. Basically your choices are Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent, and some mediocre 2-drops. So, yeah, after creature #8 you're not exactly picking from the best choices.
Well, I have to say it is a third-rate aggro deck that is perfectly capable of winning turn 2-3 with half decent consistency. Turn 5-6 is just being conservative and allowing for disruption.

To splash blue just for Blighted Agent isn't "bad" but I don't think it brings much to the table. However, by adding cantrips and counters, it is dilutes the deck. It is like adding cantrips and counters to elf or goblin deck.

I do have any hard data or extended testing, but I can say I did play around the mono-green and UG version for quite a bit. The mono G aggro version is already fast as it is, if you want it to have higher chance of a fast kill, you can throw in Berserk too. There is no way a UG version running cantrips and counters would be faster.

Yes, infect creatures are not efficient but we are making them good with pumps-ups temporarily and selectively. That's the whole point. Whatever approach you are taking, you can't skip infect creatures if you want to play infect. They are just as inefficient in a combo approach or an aggro approach.


At least with Zoo if your dudes can't get there you have burn to finish off your opponent. The best Infect Stompy can hope for past the early turns is to wither bigger creatures and die in combat or eat StP. I don't know how much you've tested, say, the Stoneblade and Maverick matchups, but in my testing I found that if I couldn't win before turn 4 it was all over. If Stoneblade hits 4 lands you are done.I am not sure how much you have playtested it, the creatures do have a bigger board presence than one would think of 1/1 creatures and we can dealt with removal. In turns of combat, we are likely to win and survive most of time in early rounds. Midrange creature based decks like Maverick are good match ups if I would say so. Stoneblade is more of a problem due to counters and Jitte, Batterskull but they could be slow and they have few creatures.

The part about not finishing of the opponent is true, being stuck at 8 or 9 counters. So far the best suggestion is Livewire Lash which I think could be the answer. But it is a little hard to cast and equip at our curve. Apostle's Blessing can also be of use in this function.

I am exploring some fresh cards and like Ground Rift. In spirit of a combo deck, is it possible to cook up a storm count and kill with Ground Rift on top of Livewire Lash?

[lyracian]

I played this list tonight on MWS. Nexus was pretty good and allowed me to get a win against a Jund deck with Lilly in play. It was also amusing to play ranger's Guile on Nexus when someone tried to wasteland it. I also got a lucky game one win against Storm. He only managed a storm of 8 and gaining 18 life off Tendrils did nothing to stop a rancored Blight Mamba with a Rebounded Vengenge waiting next turn. I did manage a perfect turn two win with Invigorate-Berserk on one game.


// Lands
11 [ALA] Forest (3)
4 [TSB] Pendelhaven
2 [MBS] Inkmoth Nexus

// Creatures
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [NPH] Glistener Elf
4 [SOM] Ichorclaw Myr
3 [SOM] Necropede
3 [SOM] Blight Mamba

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Invigorate
3 [ROE] Prey's Vengeance
4 [UL] Rancor
2 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
2 [U] Berserk
4 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
2 [ISD] Ranger's Guile

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ISD] Ranger's Guile
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb

[lochlan]

However, by adding cantrips and counters, it is dilutes the deck. It is like adding cantrips and counters to elf or goblin deck.

I disagree. Card selection is important for finding your combo pieces. I can't rely on naturally drawing a 3-card combo, I have to be proactive in finding the win if I want to do it quickly.


The mono G aggro version is already fast as it is, if you want it to have higher chance of a fast kill, you can throw in Berserk too. There is no way a UG version running cantrips and counters would be faster.

OK well using card selection to find your combo pieces quicker does actually make you faster. You can get rid of the junk and pick the spells that give you a fast win. And FoW and Daze give you some resiliency. You could run more pump in that slot but I'd rather have Brainstorm to find Invigorate than naturally draw Mutagenic Growth.

I get that mono-G goldfishes better, but in a real match-up your opponent will have either FoW or StP in their hand (maybe both if you're lucky) and UG is better equipped to handle those types of situations.


Yes, infect creatures are not efficient but we are making them good with pumps-ups temporarily and selectively. That's the whole point.

Exactly, it's only temporary. Once you get past the early game you are in top deck mode, which is when the win starts slipping away.


Whatever approach you are taking, you can't skip infect creatures if you want to play infect.

I play 16 infect creatures including 4x Inkmoth. I agree that 12 is too few. I didn't mean to imply that I only run Glistener/Agent/Inkmoth although I can see how you read it as that way, particularly considering that many UG builds do use this configuration. My point was only that after Glistener and Blighted Agent your options, are awful. (Really Inkmoth doesn't even count because it also takes up a land slot and an uncounterable infect body should be an auto 4-of anyway.) The lackluster creature selection is really the thing keeping this deck from being great. It's a fantastic concept that limps along because you don't get enough value for the 2cc creatures (other than Agent).


I am not sure how much you have playtested it, the creatures do have a bigger board presence than one would think of 1/1 creatures and we can dealt with removal. In turns of combat, we are likely to win and survive most of time in early rounds. Midrange creature based decks like Maverick are good match ups if I would say so.

Only if you win early. But, that's not too hard to do, especially if you're running Blighted Agent. If Maverick develops their board and you're in topdeck mode, though, you're in real trouble. And Maverick runs 4x StP, so if you don't have permission backup that T2 is much harder to achieve. But if you have a Daze or the Force, you win.


Stoneblade is more of a problem due to counters and Jitte, Batterskull but they could be slow and they have few creatures.

No, Stoneblade is mostly a problem post-board because of:
1) Infinite reature removal with Snapcaster (+2 PtE plus Wrath post-board) -- 2-for-1-ing you by StP-ing your creature in response to pump is a key play against you
2) Surgical Extraction post-board

Permission is a problem, yes, but I don't think it's as severe as removal -- and you can deal with it if you have your own permission. Of course if they resolve a Jitte you auto-lose (unless you can -- lol -- use berserk as removal on the body before they equip/swing, which is your only option in this terrible board state), which goes back to what I was saying before: you have to win fast. Every deck in the field is full of amazing cards that rip apart a stompy deck.


stuck at 8 or 9 counters

Yes, this is a huge problem. But Livewire Lash seems very slow and not even close to worth it. I have tested Apostle's Blessing in the board and it *seems* good, if marginal (although IMO the main reason it's playable is that if your opponent isn't bad they WILL board out Spell Snare), but I think ultimately your own Surgical Extraction is a better plan vs additional protection.


Ground Rift on top of Livewire Lash?

No way

[KBH]

Hey Lochlan, I don't understand your point about Surgical Extraction postboard. Are you saying they use them against us somehow or that Infect should use it to shut down Snapcast?

[determinacy]

Hey everybody,

Two quick points for the fruitful debate between wert and lochlan. First, @wert, Livewire Lash is not a legacy playable card. I know because I played UB & GB infect in standard and Livewire Lash was not good enough even in standard. Secondly, @lochlan, I agree that x4 Daze is good in the UG legacy infect deck but Force of Will does not make the cut. The reason is that there are not enough blue cards in the optimal version for FoW to be viable. Thanks for your discussion!

GG's,
determinacy

[wert]

@lochlan
I don't really get some of your points, but to discuss it further, why do you give your list.



Permission is a problem, yes, but I don't think it's as severe as removal -- and you can deal with it if you have your own permission. Of course if they resolve a Jitte you auto-lose (unless you can -- lol -- use berserk as removal on the body before they equip/swing, which is your only option in this terrible board state), which goes back to what I was saying before: you have to win fast. Every deck in the field is full of amazing cards that rip apart a stompy deck.
I don't know if you have looked at the playlist in the opening post, running 10+ "protection" spells. Removal isn't as big a problem as counters. The point is to race them, giving them no time to play those "amazing cards" or let their full effects run.

Another point with Daze, how many islands do you run?

[determinacy]

@wert,

I run four Tropical Island and eight fetch-lands. I like the UG Infect list at GP Madrid side-event by Olle Råde.

[KBH]

The green miracle card Revenge of the Hunted is basically 3 more Berserks (probably not 4 since you'd don't want to draw it turn 1 and definitely don't want two in your opener)

[lyracian]

New Spoiler cards. Nothing outstanding but...

~Awesome Presence G1 (2 CMC)
Instant
Prevent all damage that would be dealt this turn by creatures other than target creature.

~Nature's Blessing 4G (5 CMC)
Sorcery
Distribute four +1+1 counters among any number of target creatures.
Miracle G

Protective Chant G1 (2 CMC)
Instant
Target creature you control gains hexproof until end of turn. You gain life equal to that creature’s toughness.


Life gain on Chant is nice but the other two Hexproof cards (Vines & Rangers Guile) are better.
Blessing is at least a permanent pump but like the Miracle Berserk it is not much use in your opening hand.
Presence is another Fog variant, but I think Constant Mists is a better option.

[KBH]

New Spoiler cards. Nothing outstanding but...

~Awesome Presence G1 (2 CMC)
Instant
Prevent all damage that would be dealt this turn by creatures other than target creature.

~Nature's Blessing 4G (5 CMC)
Sorcery
Distribute four +1+1 counters among any number of target creatures.
Miracle G

Protective Chant G1 (2 CMC)
Instant
Target creature you control gains hexproof until end of turn. You gain life equal to that creature’s toughness.


Life gain on Chant is nice but the other two Hexproof cards (Vines & Rangers Guile) are better.
Blessing is at least a permanent pump but like the Miracle Berserk it is not much use in your opening hand.
Presence is another Fog variant, but I think Constant Mists is a better option.


If not for the Miracle Berserk I think Blessing would be good enough, but Revenge of the Hunted is just way too good and you can't risk playing too many miracles

[MirrorMask]

I don't know... Do you really want all your opponent's creatures to block it? I though the trick is to buff it after it is left unblocked (best scenario) :P. It is not an issue though most of the time as they know what you are about to do to them anyway (brutal ass fisting).Revenge of the Hunted is also a sorcery which is meh providing a 0 surprise factor and this is kind of important...:rolleyes:


Correction: for some reason I thought about revenge of the hunted when looking at Lyracian's post... someone is spaced out...
Nature's blessing is still a sorcery .. MEH !

[Ziveeman]

This guy plays at my local shop: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_mono_g_infect_with_c.html

The deck actually is pretty good. Our events are small (8-16 players) but he usually does well with it. The City of Traitors/sol lands do a good job of ensuring you get a turn 1 Infect dude. I'll just say, when I play Stoneblade or even Belcher, I would rather not play vs this deck since it's pretty explosive. Perhaps his build is an idea to work off of?

[lyracian]

This guy plays at my local shop: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_mono_g_infect_with_c.html
Glad to see someone else championing both Berserk and Inkmoth Nexus. City of Traitors is interesting, you might get more use out of it than Lotus Petal but there is not a lot it can cast in the deck...

[KBH]

This guy plays at my local shop: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_mono_g_infect_with_c.html

The deck actually is pretty good. Our events are small (8-16 players) but he usually does well with it. The City of Traitors/sol lands do a good job of ensuring you get a turn 1 Infect dude. I'll just say, when I play Stoneblade or even Belcher, I would rather not play vs this deck since it's pretty explosive. Perhaps his build is an idea to work off of?

I guess my question is what makes City of Traitors better than Lotus Petal which can also be used to cast pump spells?

[MirrorMask]

I think city is worse. Much worse. He has tuned his deck with sub par creatures just to make it work. If you don't play plague stinger,blighted agent, glistener elf and inkmoth nexus your deck pretty much sucks. Everything else is MUCH worse with the exception of Ichorclaw mir and maybe (probably in some other deck style though) phyrexian crusader. Evasion IS relevant and if you don't have you are deserve to lose.

[determinacy]

Check this out:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_mono_g_infect_with_c.html

[lyracian]

Check this out:That is what we have just been discussing for the last three posts... :rolleyes:

[determinacy]

I just found out about Revenge of the Hunted and I am excited about playing x2 of this card in my deck at the next local legacy tournament on Saturday.

[KBH]

I just found out about Revenge of the Hunted and I am excited about playing x2 of this card in my deck at the next local legacy tournament on Saturday.

When you miracle it, it is game over a huge percent of the time. When you draw it, you wish you had Bounty of the Hunt or something. I found with three that you drew it in your opening seven too often so I feel 2 is the best number. That basically means you have 6 Berserks in your deck

[thunderpig]

There was some recent discussion about Livewire Lash suggesting that some testing shows it to be unplayable. I have had some (Casual Play only though) success with Runechanter's Pike as a 2 of in my deck. It gives this deck a fair amount of reach (considerable mileage if you can only stick one creature) if you don't end up with your 2nd or 3rd turn win. First Strike and infect is disgusting together. It takes the place of Rancor in my deck. I have a :b::g: deck that I tinker with.

[KBH]

Wish me luck at SCG Orlando tomorrow. My brother and I are putting the finalizing touches on my deck right now. It will definitely have Revenge of the Hunted in it. I'm also pretty sure I will play a bunch of Ranger's Guile/Apostle's Blessing.

[KBH]

Quick report, made top 64 which paid back entry fee+$10 which was decent
a
Could've easily won at least one more match. Vs ANT a Mindbreak Trap would've likely pulled out Game 3 for me but I'd decided to not put any in my sideboard since I'd never run into a combo deck at a starcity event before :(

Another match my opponent went "you got it" and I said "whew I was worried since I was only at 2" then he goes "oh you're at 2? Lightning Bolt".

Pendelhaven I feel cost me a match because I ended up stuck on one land after it got wastelanded and I couldn't operate effectively without a second mana source. Also, on multiple occasions it hurt me since I couldn't freecast Invigorate.

The miracle card was ok but definitely not more than a 2-of because in the opening hand it is exactly like mulliganing down one card. It did flat-out win me one game and swung another heavily in my favor.

I honestly would play 0 or 1 Pendelhaven at most in the future.

One card I hadn't considered in a while but happened to notice in the sales window is Summoning Trap. Being free is an excellent advantage over other options, but Autumn's Veil also protects your pump spells as well. Another alternative I had sucess with today is Xantid Swarm..I was quite pleased with how well he performed overall.

I wish I had more opportunities to practice with my deck and hone it, because while I was happy with how I did I also feel I could've done better if I'd worked out a few of the kinks.

PS I will forever stand by 4 Berserks -- way, way too many of the deck's wins are Berserk/Invigorate or Berserk/Krosa on turn 2 or 3. To me that is poison's best window to win so you have to maximize to take advantage of your opportunity.

[lyracian]

Quick report, made top 64 which paid back entry fee+$10 which was decent

PS I will forever stand by 4 Berserks -- way, way too many of the deck's wins are Berserk/Invigorate or Berserk/Krosa on turn 2 or 3. To me that is poison's best window to win so you have to maximize to take advantage of your opportunity.Congrats on getting into the top 64. I agree with you on Berserk, I am just not willing to spend the cash on getting any more.
Pendelhaven on the other hand has always been good for me.

Was it the Miricle Berzerk you used in your deck?

[KBH]

Congrats on getting into the top 64. I agree with you on Berserk, I am just not willing to spend the cash on getting any more.
Pendelhaven on the other hand has always been good for me.

Was it the Miricle Berzerk you used in your deck?

Revenge of the Hunted, yes. The other miracle is just a lame +4/+4 and seems rather terrible.

Honestly, I think that the correct land:accelerator mix is off as well. 14:8 means that you too often get one land and then blow your accelerator early and stall on one mana. Even in Type I, the old n-land decks tended to stop at 4 ESG without adding even a single (restricted) Lotus Petal (making for 6 accel counting Emerald+Lotus).

On the other hand I don't think the deck can devote more than 22 cards to mana sources which would lead me to think that 16:6 is probably more stable -- thats because in my general experience 16 is the threshold to hit two lands consistently enough. For many various reasons ESG is almost certainly the better of the two vs Lotus Petal (Thalia, Chalice, ethersworn, etc), even though Lotus Petal technically can mana cast Apostle's Blessing.

About Apostle's Blessing -- I was all set to convince myself that Ranger's Guile might be better with its +1/+1 and no life penalty (especially vs red), but its not even close. Apostle's unblockability is HUGE. One time I Apostle'd in response to a Sneak Attack Griselbrand block for the win, as an example.

I actually think that due to the insane amount of spot removal there needs to be 8 hexproof cards maindeck -- 4 Vines+4APostle's. That puts a real pinch on the other necessary pump spells however and has led me to even question whether Rancor cuts it as a 4-of. That just speaks to how difficult I think it is to get the pump spell mix correct.

Finally don't forget how good Autumn's Veil is very an assortment of decks. It stops counterspells on your hate cards (vs combo for instance) and it also stops Submerge and Chain of Vapor and so on. Submerge in particular sees a TON of play.

Finally, a note about Revenge of the Hunted. It is unquestionably powerful but the truth is that it is borderline and probably would NOT make a hyper tuned deck. Opening with it is just SUCH a setback.

[Icapica]

I played in a tiny "tournament" yesterday and wrote about it on MTGSalvation. I figured I could put it here too.


I played in a very relaxed little tourney yesterday with this list:
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Blighted Agent
3 Ichorclaw Myr

4 Berserk
3 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Invigorate
1 Rancor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze

1 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Gut Shot
1 Viridian Corrupter
3 Nature's Claim

Since there were so few of us, we played only three rounds. I don't remember some of the details very well, but I'll try to give a quick report on how it went:



Match one: Solidarity
Game 1: I don't remember exactly how I start but I mulligan to six and start with a hand that doesn't have any Dazes but should win on the third turn if I'm not disrupted. I probe my opponent and see Reset and some other Solidarity stuff, but no High Tides or FoWs. I deal five poison counters on the second turn and he doens't do anything relevant, but I notice he plays a Tropical Island so he has a green card somewhere. On the third turn I attack and as I pump to finish the game, he goes off and wins.

Game 2: I can't seem to get a hand that has even a single colored mana source so I mulligan down to 4 cards and keep a hand with two fetch lands, Glistener Elf and some other green card. I'm not sure about the details but I think my Elf got countered and I draw nothing but pump for many turns. Eventually I get an Elf into play and attack with it. The opponent starts comboing, wishes for Hunting Pack and plays 7 4/4 beasts and blocks with all of them. I pump the Elf to 36/9 trample with Invigorate, Vines and two Berserks and plow through the beasts dealing 8 poison counters. Afterwards we both have empty hands, but I draw a creature before he draws an answer so I win.

Game 3: I mulligan again and go with a very slow hand, but it seems that my opponent doesn't have a very good hand either. I end up winning on the sixth turn or something since he has High Tides and Resets but no way to draw cards.

1-0 (2-1)



Match two: Show and Tell
Game 1: I mulligan to 5, he keeps 7, and after seeing Volcanic Island and Ancient Tomb I realize what he's playing. I give him some poison counters but he drops Emrakul into play. I have a Blighted Agent in play but can't pump it to win and I have exactly 6 permanents in play when Emrakul attacks.

Game 2: He mulligans to 5 while I keep 7. I have a good hand and a Daze and win quickly.

Game 3: This game lasts a little longer and is a little more interesting than the second game. However he can't find the cards he needs and I win.

2-0 (4-2)



Match three: Burn
Game 1: I start, play Tropical Island and play Gitaxian Probe with two life to help me decide if I should play Elf or Hierarch on the first turn. When I see his hand full of burn and mountains, he mentions that he's happy that I paid life. I play Hierarch and on his turn he plays some burn. I play Glistener Elf and a Rancor to it since he's tapped and can't kill the Elf in response. He burns me again and on the next turn I attack and he gets 4 poison counters. I figure he might want to kill my Elf soon and don't expect him to have any board wipe in the maindeck, so I play Ichorclaw Myr so that I could continue attacking next turn no matter what. Turns out I was wrong and he plays Volcanic Fallout on his turn and I don't have Invigorate to save any creature. Then he kills me soon.

Game 2: I remember pretty poorly how the game went but I remember that I had him almost killed when I was down to just a few life and blocked Goblin Guide with a Hierarch. Immediately when I put my Hierarch I realize I made a huge mistake, as it was my only untapped mana source and I'm holding a Spell Pierce. Just one more turn and I'd win but now he could win if he has Fireblast. He thinks for a moment and passes the turn. On my turn I attack and pump my creature. He Fireblasts me in response and I counter it winning the game. He explains that he was afraid of Daze the previous turn and I guess he thought he'd have one more turn time.

Game 3: I have a hand that should be able to kill on the fourth turn and counter at least one of his spells so I figure it's enough even if he starts. I slow him down and on the third turn I attack with 5/5 Inkmoth. The next turn I declare attack again and immediately realize my mistake since I only have two Mights of Old Krosa in my hand and mana to cast one of them. I cast one and deal 3 poison, fearing that this mistake will cost me the game. I pass the turn at 8 life. I'm lucky and he burns me down to 1 life and passes the turn, then I win.

3-0 (6-3)


I mulliganed a lot and did a few serious mistakes, but the deck was strong and I won a couple of games due to opponents having terrible luck. The card I was happiest about was Hierarch and funnily it was an accident that I played four of them. I meant to play three Hierarchs and four Mights but somehow the amounts changed. Next weeks sunday I'll try my luck at GPT Ghent :) I might want to do some changes to the sideboard by then.

I hope I didn't do any silly mistakes writing the report, I'm a bit tired at the moment.

I might test replacing the Probes with something else, but I'm not sure what yet. Spell Pierces are one option I'm thinking about.

[determinacy]

I'm playing a similar list to the one posted by Icapica above, but I have made a few important changes. I have replaced x3 Vines of the Vastwood with x3 Spell Pierce because Griselbrand has changed the metagame in legacy. The reanimator / sneak attack / show and tell decks with Griselbrand play zero main deck removal. Thus, vines of the vastwood is inefficient. It seems to me that spell pierce is a more powerful card because it counters sneak attack & show and tell & hymn to tourach & force of will. I have replaced gitaxian probe with ponder. Ponder is excellent for finding a second land or creature. Lastly, I have replaced the pendelhaven with an island. I am looking forward to playing infect in the Star City Games open in Seattle later this month. What do you think of these changes?

[KBH]

good luck! I don't own any duals so I have no experience with U/G.

[david.gerco]

Hello people!
I'm a fan of monocolored decks and I'm actually playing a Mono Green Infect Stompy for quite long :)

My build is something like this:
(18) MANA SOURCES:
9x Forest
1x Pendelhaven
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Land Grant
(16) CREATURES:
2x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Necropede
4x Glistener Elf
4x Blight Mamba
4x Ichorclaw Myr
(26) OTHER SPELLS:
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Vines of Vastwood
4x Rancor
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Mutagenic Growth
4x Invigorate
2x Bounty of the Hunt

This build is rather more explosive and of course, is monocolored. The version I think works the best in Legacy is the UG with 4x Elf, 4x Agent and 4x Nexus w/ Force, Daze and friends. Still, I'm having good results with my list with some alterations here and there.
Any help or question please tell me.
Keep enjoying Magic!
Cheers,
david.gerco

[determinacy]

Check it out!!

I played infect on the featured match in round six at the StarCityGames Open in Seattle. The video was broadcasted live and the video will be available in the coverage archive next week. Here is a link to my decklist: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47517. I took notes during every round of the tournament and I will upload comments in the near future. Go infect!!

[KBH]

Check it out!!

I played infect on the featured match in round six at the StarCityGames Open in Seattle. The video was broadcasted live and the video will be available in the coverage archive next week. Here is a link to my decklist: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47517. I took notes during every round of the tournament and I will upload comments in the near future. Go infect!!

That is awesome. I played at table 1 several times but never got a featured match. Cool!!

[lyracian]

LCL 2012 Octubre - 4th of 131 is Stompy (Infect Remix)

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9340&iddeck=68165


//Creatures [14]
1 Necropede
2 Ichorclaw Myr
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf

//Spells
3 Might of Old Krosa
4 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder

//Lands [18]
1 Pendelhaven
2 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath

//Side
3 Ranger's Guile
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Echoing Truth
2 Spell Pierce
2 Divert
3 Gut Shot