Moving a creature between zones question:

[Kich867]

I'm aware that when you do something like, play a creature, bounce it, then replay that creature, it's not the same creature despite being the same physical card. But I'm wondering where exactly all of this follows.

Let's say a card exists that reads something like: "Destroy target creature, then exile another creature from it's controller's graveyard."

Is that creature still.. its own entity while in the graveyard, or does moving it to another zone make it no longer have the same identity?

I guess a better question which probably more accurately asks this question is:

If I have a 1/1 creature with Flash, and in response to a lightning bolt targeting it, I return it to my hand via Unsummon and then play it again, Lightning Bolt is countered upon resolution because the target no longer exists (correct?).

In that same situation, let's say I have a 1/1 creature with Undying, and in response to a lightning bolt targeting it, I sacrifice it via some instant, it hits the graveyard and comes back with a +1/+1 counter...what happens to lightning bolt? Does it still hit it? I get the feeling it does, unless my understanding of how undying works is horribly horribly flawed (which it very well may be), but I kind of have no idea.

Does undying somehow maintain it's identity? I was under the impression that when things move through zones that they don't keep their identities (if you exile a creature with counters on it, when it comes back they don't have those counters on them because it's actually not the same creature upon returning, or am I not correct on that?), but things like this kind of confuse me.

[cdr]

You ought to take a look at rule 400.7 (http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R4007):

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:

400.7a. Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes.

400.7b. Prevention effects that apply to damage from a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes.

400.7c. If an ability of a permanent requires information about choices made as that permanent was cast as a spell, including what mana was spent to cast that spell, it uses information about the spell that became that permanent as it resolved.

400.7d. Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, "When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield") can find the new object that it became in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone.

400.7e. Abilities of Auras that trigger when the enchanted permanent leaves the battlefield can find the new object that Aura became in its owner's graveyard if it was put into that graveyard at the same time the enchanted permanent left the battlefield. It can also find the new object that Aura became in its owner's graveyard as a result of being put there as a state-based action for not being attached to a permanent. (See rule 704.5n.)

400.7f. If an effect grants a nonland card an ability that allows it to be cast, that ability will continue to apply to the new object that card became after it moved to the stack as a result of being cast this way.

400.7g. A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated, if that object moved to a public zone.

If a creature leaves the battlefield, it ceases to exist. Anything targeting it will be countered upon resolution. If it returns to the battlefield, no matter how, it's a new object.

A creature with undying is a new object in the graveyard and a new object when it returns to the battlefield. The undying trigger can keep track of it across zones because it has to in order to function.

[Malchar]

Let's say a card exists that reads something like: "Destroy target creature, then exile another creature from it's controller's graveyard."

Is that creature still.. its own entity while in the graveyard, or does moving it to another zone make it no longer have the same identity?

The card you suggest can't really be printed as worded. The correct wording should be "Destroy target creature, then exile another creature card from it's controller's graveyard." (because creatures can't be in the graveyard, but creature cards can.) However, the creature that was destroyed wasn't a "creature card", so "another" doesn't mean anything since you're comparing a creature to a creature card. If they actually printed something like this, then they would probably clarify the rules to match it. If this interaction actually exists, then let me know what the real cards involved are.


...let's say I have a 1/1 creature with Undying, and in response to a lightning bolt targeting it, I sacrifice it via some instant, it hits the graveyard and comes back with a +1/+1 counter...what happens to lightning bolt? Does it still hit it? I get the feeling it does, unless my understanding of how undying works is horribly horribly flawed (which it very well may be), but I kind of have no idea.

The lightning bolt is countered for the same reasons as if you has used unsummon. It is a different creature. The same thing happens if you sacrifice a creature without undying and then used makeshift mannequin or some other reanimation spell at instant speed. In many ways, the +1/+1 counter from undying (or -1/-1 from persist) is the only thing that keeps track of the fact that it has already died (or persisted) once. Lacking that, it would just keep coming back forever. If the card said "when ~ dies the second time, it stays dead", then that doesn't mean anything since any one instance of the creature only dies once before coming back as a different creature.

[Kich867]

Thanks! The portion of 400.7 about triggered abilities upon moving zones being able to track the new object is what I was looking for.