RUW Tempo

[KobeBryan]

Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Geist of Saint Traft

Instsants/Sorceries:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze

Lands
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 plain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
1 tormod's crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 swords to plowshare

[Shimi]

I'm playing this list and it just destroy Uw and Maverick and Combo, the SB may need some ajusts but the maindeck is very good.

4 Delver
4 Snapcaster
2 Geist of Saint Traft

1 Runechanter's Pike

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Snare
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
3 STP
3 Ponder

4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic
4 Tundra
8 Fetchs


SB:
1 Island
4 Surgical
2 Jace
3 Flusterstorm
3 ReB
1 STP
1 Disenchant

[KobeBryan]

Me too. I'm actually having lots of success against Mav and bant mav decks.

Maybe this is a deck to enter into a tournament with. I dont' know the matchup against burn though.

[iScare]

Take out the Grimm. It has no synergy with Snapcaster. You're doing your opponent a favor my removing cards from you graveyard.

Replace it with Vendilion Clique or maybe Chains or Lightning helixes.

[RainbowPenguin]

Interesting deck. I have wondered for some time if RUW tempo could be a good deck, but I couldn't think of a good replacement for the green creatures, since Stoneforge Mystic seemed too slow for that kind of deck. Somehow I hadn't thought of St. Traft, he might just be the answer.

From the OP, I would probably take out the Sword to Plowshares. Between lightning bolt, Snapcaster -> lightning bolt and grim lavamancer (or perhaps chain lightning or fire//ice) you should have enough removal, especially considering the countermagic, too.

Running no basics is usually very greedy. But in certain decks, it can be more greedy to have basics. I think this is such a deck, although a single island might be optimal.

[death]

There's a reason why Clique is a 30 dollar card. I don't see any reason why he isn't in any of these decklists.

[Koby]

I would consider Path to Exile before StP for this deck. I think consideration of Chain Lightning in addition to the removal suite, or reconfiguation of the numbers.

I like the approach.

Also, Grim Lavamancer + Snapcaster work just fine. You clearly don't remove the spells you plan on using with Snappy, and it doesn't really change the math too much.

Grim: :r: for 2 damage. Snapcaster: :1::u::r: for 3 damage.

Take your pick.

[KobeBryan]

Damn it Rukcus. I wanted to catch you off guard with this deck at mtgdeals.

[iScare]

Damn it Rukcus. I wanted to catch you off guard with this deck at mtgdeals.

You're an idiot then for posting it here and under your name. Maybe you should make a new screen name. Good players read everything.

[Richard Cheese]

I would consider Path to Exile before StP for this deck. I think consideration of Chain Lightning in addition to the removal suite, or reconfiguation of the numbers.

I like the approach.

Also, Grim Lavamancer + Snapcaster work just fine. You clearly don't remove the spells you plan on using with Snappy, and it doesn't really change the math too much.

Grim: :r: for 2 damage. Snapcaster: :1::u::r: for 3 damage.

Take your pick.

I agree on Grim. Works just fine in UR Delver, and can sometimes be an important defense against Ooze. If you ran Path though, you'd probably want to look at cutting Wasteland. If the life gain from StP is really an issue, maybe consider something like Vapor Snag.

[KobeBryan]

I agree on Grim. Works just fine in UR Delver, and can sometimes be an important defense against Ooze. If you ran Path though, you'd probably want to look at cutting Wasteland. If the life gain from StP is really an issue, maybe consider something like Vapor Snag.

If i replace path with vapor, it would be pointless really to run white. What do you think?

[Koby]

Giest is really good. Having *access* to Exiling effects are also really useful.

There are ways to minimize PtE's drawback by playing it on your opponent's turn, ideally after they drew their card for the turn. It's not always perfect, but in a racing condition I'd rather have my opponent be +1 mana than +3 life.

[death]

+3 life is nothing if opponent can't anymore cast spells because you succesfully denied him off mana. In a deck with Stifle + Waste + Daze, StP should come first.

[KobeBryan]

Yea the damage output for this deck isn't too great, unlike RUG where they have goyfs. I would hate plowing a 20/20 knight.

Lets see how it goes with paths.

[Shimi]

There's a reason why Clique is a 30 dollar card. I don't see any reason why he isn't in any of these decklists.

Bolt is a 1U$ card... but what I really want to say is that if you want to tap 3 mana to play a creature it would be Geist, it has hexproff and hit for 6, of course it has no evasion but you have 7 removals + snap to deal with creatures, also it can hit for 4 dmg even if your opp has some big guy.I don't see why Clique is better than Geist here.


+3 life is nothing if opponent can't anymore cast spells because you succesfully denied him off mana. In a deck with Stifle + Waste + Daze, StP should come first.


Giest is really good. Having *access* to Exiling effects are also really useful.

I agree here and I would not run PtE in this deck.

The mana denial plan is very good and PtE seems bad, also there is sometimes where removing something like a KotR/Goyf/Ooze is better than losing the game or giving alot of time to your opp to build their board, you have 3 STP and 4 Bolts + Snaps, there are many times where you STP a mother/noble/lackey/Stone making the life gain irrelevant or minimal.

I sugest people to try a 1of Runechanter's Pike , it is 1 hit kill equip that can come from nowhere and close the game.

[KobeBryan]

I've tested this deck a bit further. Paths are really the way to go. The creatures being ran in this deck aren't all too strong. You are also using many of your bolts to deal with those pesky 1 drops.

Each turn, you deal about 4-5 damage, which really isn't too much. With a sword, you basically reset their life total to something before your attack and even more.

Also, the key is to save your FOW against knights. You really have to treat the FOW as precious metal and if by chance one resolves, you have to use your plow against it.

Silhana Ledgewalker with an equipment kicked my ass.

[lebarion]

Path to Exile is not widely played in Death and Taxes because of the anti-sinergy with Wastelands and Rishadan Ports. Now, this deck runs Wastelands, Stifles and Dazes.
Also, if you give your opponent life but he is not able to cast spells, you're still ahead. You just can't let him stabilizes, and that is exactly what giving him a land does.

[KobeBryan]

Then maybe the maverick matchup is just a beater.

[Henrik]

So how about not playing stifle/waste/daze then, and go along with the PtEs?

The tempo-package could easily become an extended counter-suite consisting of both spell pierce and counterspell, which are both strong with Snappy, or CB-top.

[ImpinAintEasy]

So I loaded this list last night on MTGO and did some testing.

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island

Creatures (10)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of St. Traft
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells (30)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
3 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
1 Runechanter's Pike

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 REB
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

First Test Match was against RDW W 2-1

Second was against The Sources very own Ruckus playing Maverick.

Game 1 - Was pretty much a blowout, he couldn't do a point of damage and I have tons of removal the snappys to seal the deal. I didn't draw much land, only had 4 after 17 turns, so maybe I just got lucky with the draws, but pretty sure I used 3-4 cantrips during those turns.

Game 2 - He opens with Noble, then goes T2 double Mom. I kill both his moms with STP and Bolt and he then double surgically extractions my kill conditions. Pretty sure I was a tad unlucky here lol.

Game 3 - Don't remember much, but he won

Despite losing, I did feel like I had the upper hand and I will hit him up for more testing later.

I played a few more matches after that against enchantress and a few other decks and the results were pretty good.

I wouldn't abandon this deck idea just yet as I seriously think it has potential. I will update more this weekend after I do more testing.

[Misplayer]

So how about not playing stifle/waste/daze then, and go along with the PtEs?

The tempo-package could easily become an extended counter-suite consisting of both spell pierce and counterspell, which are both strong with Snappy, or CB-top.

Just to clarify, you're advocating moving to a more controlling build so you can go aggro more effectively with path vs swords? That seems awfully contradictory.

[Henrik]

Why?
You only have to control the game until you've won it.

[Jacemindbreak]

yikes, this deck just placed in a 3rd place qualifier. Seems like it's better than RUG

[KobeBryan]

Tested this deck more with Iscare

This is what we came up with

Creatures: (10)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft

Instsants/Sorceries: (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
3 chain lightning
3 Daze
2 Price of Progress

Lands (20)
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 plain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
3 Surgical Extraction
3 submerge
1 tormod's crypt
(4 flex slots for your meta)

[Hanni]

No Grim Lavamancer's? I think you could afford to cut a Geist (top heavy) and something else to fit in two, at least. Even for a Tempo deck, they offer great reach.

[KobeBryan]

No Grim Lavamancer's? I think you could afford to cut a Geist (top heavy) and something else to fit in two, at least. Even for a Tempo deck, they offer great reach.

I'll try to test more. lets see how it goes.

[KobeBryan]

I'll try to test more. lets see how it goes.

Creatures: (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 grim lavamancer

Instsants/Sorceries: (29)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 path to exile
3 Ponder
2 chain lightning
3 Daze
2 Price of Progress

Lands (19)
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 plain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
3 Surgical Extraction
3 submerge
1 path to exile
3 spell pierce
1 tormod's crypt

[Kich867]

So, have you, instead of trying Geist (which is, at the earliest a turn 7 on it's own) and instead popped in something like steppe lynx?

Lynx is hitting for 4 on turn 2 with mana open.

Price of Progress seems like a weird card choice given the direction the deck should be going in given it's a tempo deck. Path to exile is also kind of a weird choice. Apologies if those were covered and justified, but together they seem incredibly difficult to justify..

PoP attacks a very small mana base and you yourself want to be fetching duals, not basics, because you need to be flexible with your 1-3 mana. If you're stifling fetches and wasting duals, what is PoP hitting? If you're pathing creatures, what is stifle and wasteland actually doing? If you're pathing creatures, you're letting them get mana and proactively letting them play around PoP. This seems to be this whole kind of crazy circular thing going on that feels very off.

I would drop path, geist, and PoP, for Steppe Lynx and burn personally. Up the chain lightning, throw in some fireblasts. I mean that's basically the list that I made, it's entirely untested as of right now as I just bought force of wills and can't realistically afford to purchase a tundra or two.

Tempo them back via stifles / wastes while beating with a delver or steppe lynx or whatever, then burn reach them if you need to, you'll be able to bolt any relevant thing you need to in these early turns.

I feel like adding a Geist says: "Why am I even running stifle? I could just drop stifle, daze, and path for swords, better counterspells, and jace and just run a RUW Control deck.." But perhaps that's just me.

[KobeBryan]

So, have you, instead of trying Geist (which is, at the earliest a turn 7 on it's own) and instead popped in something like steppe lynx?

Lynx is hitting for 4 on turn 2 with mana open.

Price of Progress seems like a weird card choice given the direction the deck should be going in given it's a tempo deck. Path to exile is also kind of a weird choice. Apologies if those were covered and justified, but together they seem incredibly difficult to justify..

PoP attacks a very small mana base and you yourself want to be fetching duals, not basics, because you need to be flexible with your 1-3 mana. If you're stifling fetches and wasting duals, what is PoP hitting? If you're pathing creatures, what is stifle and wasteland actually doing? If you're pathing creatures, you're letting them get mana and proactively letting them play around PoP. This seems to be this whole kind of crazy circular thing going on that feels very off.

I would drop path, geist, and PoP, for Steppe Lynx and burn personally. Up the chain lightning, throw in some fireblasts. I mean that's basically the list that I made, it's entirely untested as of right now as I just bought force of wills and can't realistically afford to purchase a tundra or two.

Tempo them back via stifles / wastes while beating with a delver or steppe lynx or whatever, then burn reach them if you need to, you'll be able to bolt any relevant thing you need to in these early turns.

I feel like adding a Geist says: "Why am I even running stifle? I could just drop stifle, daze, and path for swords, better counterspells, and jace and just run a RUW Control deck.." But perhaps that's just me.

Regarding Geists. This guy is a beast when you keep swinging with a 2/2 and a 4/4. With geists, you never have a dead stifle. You can stifle the angel's exit ability.

Regarding swords to plowshares. You simply cannot give the other side life since you are really a burn deck in nature. Plowing a 20/20 knight of the reliquary will end your game completely without ever a chance for a comeback.

Regarding price of progress. You have to learn how to fetch the basics. White really isn't that essential in this deck. Blue and the red colors are. I have won games with price of progress where I had no business of winning. Especially snapcasting a price of progress.

[Henrik]

Lynx, Chain Lightning and PoP?
I don't know, there seems to be 10 different ways to build RUW right now, most of them at least viable and most of them pretty good, so I'm not judging. Just questioning whether this is the thread for that strategy or if it belongs in Hanni's sligh thread.

Anywho, I've jumped on the RUW-wagon with a list that started out as a straight up port of RUG NLT. At that time, I played 3 Jace TMS and an extra land, but found that adding daze and spell pierce and going down to 20 lands served my purpose better.

Here's the current list


CREATURES (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer / Vendilion Clique*
3 Geist of Saint Traft
INSTANTS (28)
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
LANDS (20)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Wasteland

*Undecided. Whichever does not end up in maindeck will have 2 slots in SB, since these are perfectly interchangeable depending on matchup.

SB is pending.

Tested the deck in the local 25-30 man tourney this week, ended 2-1-1, with the loss due to a horrible misplay from my part. Def. gonna try it again.

And yeah, I never thought of that stifling the Angel's exit trigger, that's huge! Thanks for the tip ;)

[Kich867]

Regarding Geists. This guy is a beast when you keep swinging with a 2/2 and a 4/4. With geists, you never have a dead stifle. You can stifle the angel's exit ability.

Regarding swords to plowshares. You simply cannot give the other side life since you are really a burn deck in nature. Plowing a 20/20 knight of the reliquary will end your game completely without ever a chance for a comeback.

Regarding price of progress. You have to learn how to fetch the basics. White really isn't that essential in this deck. Blue and the red colors are. I have won games with price of progress where I had no business of winning. Especially snapcasting a price of progress.

I wrote up a rather lengthy explanation as to why this is kind of a poor response (that somehow left out the absurdity of a 20/20 KOTR). But it got lost.

So I'll summarize.

You referred to those cards as if you were running them in this deck and it clearly said (in the thing you quoted) in my post that replacing those cards and adding things like better counterspells, swords to plowshares, etc. would make the deck more of what it is right now, a control deck.

Path to Exile conflicts with A: the gameplan, B: Stifle, C: wasteland, D: Price of Progress

Price of Progress conflicts with A: your mana base, B: stifle, C: wasteland

Geist conflicts with A: the gameplan.

It works nicely with stifle, this is totally true, but you're talking about a longer game which tempo decks don't want to see. You're description of the deck and card choices infer a control deck is what you actually wanted--why even bother stifling and wasting dual lands (which means your PoP's don't do damage) then path to give them unwastable unstifleable lands (which means your PoP's don't do damage) and give up your own flexibility just to run PoP when there's alternatives that not only encourage a tempo style but strengthen it.

Swords to Plowshare is entirely ok to run with the deck over Path, it's absurd to even consider a 20/20 KOTR. You sword small chumpers, you counter big beaters. That's the plan. 1-2 life here and there won't make them any less mana fucked than they currently are, Path to Exile .. will make them less mana fucked than they were before, sometimes so much so that you proactively give them an out.

If you can stifle and waste all of their X source of mana, they can't cast relevant spells that you know they want to hit..

Personally, I wouldn't run Geist. He doesn't seem like a tempo creature to me. He seems like a card that abuses board position and fits into a control shell. He's hard to deal with.

I would run things like Steppe Lynx, who..if he gets 2 swings in with fetchlands, is 1 mana for 8 damage.

I would run Fireblast over Price of Progress, I want to be fetching duals in a tempo deck so that I can abuse my flexibility and my opponents inflexibility. Perhaps we have a different version of "tempo" decks, but if your tempo deck says "I win around turn 7 or 8 on average" then you have to sit and think long and hard about how that's in any way shape or form a tempo deck. You want to be winning quickly.

To me, I envision tempo as pushing someone over, and when they try and get back up you clock them in the face. It doesn't matter how big they are, you just jump on their ass and beat them while they're down until they submit to defeat.

A not-so-unrealistic situation is a turn 3 or 4 win: Steppe Lynx T1, swing for 4, swing for 4 + 2 redundant bolts + 1 fireblast and most times someone is dead after that. If they aren't, you bolt them again or lavamance them or something. Redundant powerful turn 1 creature + redundant fetches + redundant burn can absolutely result in a turn 3 win at the earliest, turn 4 more realistically (which will more often than not be the case, you want to be spending mana on stifles and wastelands which is fine).

To me, if I'm not aiming to win by turn 4, I'm not playing tempo, so a list that seems comfortable going into turns 7 or 8 is a game twice as long. Tempo loses it's strength later, they capitalize on early game disruption of the mana to keep the opponent down.

[KobeBryan]

Yes, you do plow the small critters and counter the big threats. however, you only have 4 relevant counters for creatures. And that's force of will. pierce, snare, and dazes won't work here.

If by chance a huge knight comes through. (you do know part of the game play is destroying lands), you have a huge huge problem in hand.

With swords, you will never come back.

on another note, you have to learn to bait the players. Its like mind games. People usually play 2 basic lands now since the meta is filled with 3 color decks. Play a wasteland, dont' use it so they will fetch all their basics up. thats when paths are at its best.

But the problem is that the POP won't be too effective. I might change that up for 2 leaks.

[Kich867]

Yes, you do plow the small critters and counter the big threats. however, you only have 4 relevant counters for creatures. And that's force of will. pierce, snare, and dazes won't work here.

If by chance a huge knight comes through. (you do know part of the game play is destroying lands), you have a huge huge problem in hand.

With swords, you will never come back.

on another note, you have to learn to bait the players. Its like mind games. People usually play 2 basic lands now since the meta is filled with 3 color decks. Play a wasteland, dont' use it so they will fetch all their basics up. thats when paths are at its best.

But the problem is that the POP won't be too effective. I might change that up for 2 leaks.

I'm sorry, why is daze not relevant there? Your gameplan is to destroy lands, they're going to tap out to play it, then you daze it. What's..the problem there? Or are you suggesting that, against a tempo deck, let's say--generously--that you stifle a fetch and waste a dual. In order to play knight safely they'll need 4 mana to -not- get it dazed.

At what point in time are they not dead in 6 turns given somehow they actually hit a land drop -every- turn?

[KobeBryan]

I'm sorry, why is daze not relevant there? Your gameplan is to destroy lands, they're going to tap out to play it, then you daze it. What's..the problem there? Or are you suggesting that, against a tempo deck, let's say--generously--that you stifle a fetch and waste a dual. In order to play knight safely they'll need 4 mana to -not- get it dazed.

At what point in time are they not dead in 6 turns given somehow they actually hit a land drop -every- turn?

Its always nice to make an argument with a perfect scenario play. But how often are you going to have the mana on turn 1, keep it untapped, wait for a stifle on their fetch, then back on your turn you can kill a dual land on their subsequent turn.

There are games where the opponent would drop a basic, cast a one drop creature. Then you play. You play land, bolt the one drop creature or do something else like drop a one drop. Then wait for the daze when he drops something on turn 2. then will be up 2 lands and you have nothing.

Then on turn three, you have 1 land, they have 3. yup...you really want to daze again huh

This is huge tempo loss, especially when you are a tempo deck.

[Hanni]

I'm sorry Kich, as I normally agree with your assessments, but I feel that you are wrong here.

Steppe Lynx is absolutely phenomenal in my Sligh deck, but that's a different deck. Steppe Lynx is really bad in here. Tempo decks play alot differently than a hyper aggressive burn heavy deck.

Lynx is great in Sligh because the deck only needs 1 swing out of him to be worth more than Lightning Bolt, and 2 swings is amazing in a deck that's basically an evolution of Burn. 1 mana for 8 damage is beautiful, and exactly what that deck wants.

Lynx is bad in a tempo deck that needs to get alot more mileage out of its creatures. The deck plays alot more control (Stifle/Waste/countermagic), and alot less burn. Tempo wants to drop a creature or two, disrupt its opponent's for several turns so that they cannot do a whole lot, and ride those one or two guys to victory. Delver is fantastic here because he swings for 3 a turn in the air. Lynx is bad because he swings for 4 once or twice, and then he runs out of gas.

For the same reasons why Lynx is bad in here, Geist is pretty good. The Hexproof thing has nothing to do with being better in a control shell. In fact, I think Geist is pretty lousy in a control shell, since he's horrible defensively. Geist is extremely aggressive, costing 3 mana is slow, but swinging for 6 is huge. Even if the opponent can block him, he's still pushing 4 damage through. If you Stifle his trigger (great way to use otherwise dead Stifle's in the midgame), you get a permanent 4/4 flier. He's hard to remove, meaning a ripped Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt off the top of the opponent's library won't deal with him. Hopefully, if you played the tempo game right, the opponent doesn't have any blockers to kill him.

However, I think the earlier versions of this deck were confused. This isn't U/R Delver; Price of Progress doesn't belong in this deck. If you want to build a Tempo deck, you're best bet is to model the deck after Team America or Canadian Threshold (now dubbed RUG Tempo)... no need to re-invent the wheel here.

Henrik's most recent decklist is extremely close to what this deck should look like. I would not run the Swords to Plowshares, because you do not want the opponent gaining any life, even if it's only a point or two. I'd much, much rather run Fire/Ice in that spot, with Submerge in the sideboard. I'd probably tweak the numbers on the creature base and maybe the spells a little too, but other than that, his list looks good.

[Kich867]

I'm sorry Kich, as I normally agree with your assessments, but I feel that you are wrong here.

Steppe Lynx is absolutely phenomenal in my Sligh deck, but that's a different deck. Steppe Lynx is really bad in here. Tempo decks play alot differently than a hyper aggressive burn heavy deck.

Lynx is great in Sligh because the deck only needs 1 swing out of him to be worth more than Lightning Bolt, and 2 swings is amazing in a deck that's basically an evolution of Burn. 1 mana for 8 damage is beautiful, and exactly what that deck wants.

Lynx is bad in a tempo deck that needs to get alot more mileage out of its creatures. The deck plays alot more control (Stifle/Waste/countermagic), and alot less burn. Tempo wants to drop a creature or two, disrupt its opponent's for several turns so that they cannot do a whole lot, and ride those one or two guys to victory. Delver is fantastic here because he swings for 3 a turn in the air. Lynx is bad because he swings for 4 once or twice, and then he runs out of gas.

For the same reasons why Lynx is bad in here, Geist is pretty good. The Hexproof thing has nothing to do with being better in a control shell. In fact, I think Geist is pretty lousy in a control shell, since he's horrible defensively. Geist is extremely aggressive, costing 3 mana is slow, but swinging for 6 is huge. Even if the opponent can block him, he's still pushing 4 damage through. If you Stifle his trigger (great way to use otherwise dead Stifle's in the midgame), you get a permanent 4/4 flier. He's hard to remove, meaning a ripped Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt off the top of the opponent's library won't deal with him. Hopefully, if you played the tempo game right, the opponent doesn't have any blockers to kill him.

However, I think the earlier versions of this deck were confused. This isn't U/R Delver; Price of Progress doesn't belong in this deck. If you want to build a Tempo deck, you're best bet is to model the deck after Team America or Canadian Threshold (now dubbed RUG Tempo)... no need to re-invent the wheel here.

Henrik's most recent decklist is extremely close to what this deck should look like. I would not run the Swords to Plowshares, because you do not want the opponent gaining any life, even if it's only a point or two. I'd much, much rather run Fire/Ice in that spot, with Submerge in the sideboard. I'd probably tweak the numbers on the creature base and maybe the spells a little too, but other than that, his list looks good.

I guess I don't see how that makes my assessments of whether PoP or PtE belong in this deck--they don't. I would rather run Lightning Helix or something.. I'd almost even rather have Clique to continue disrupting them, it's easier to remove but it helps keep them off what they're doing and beats for three.

I really don't see tempo decks as much of control decks, Fire/Ice doesn't sound terrible to timewalk them when they're low on mana.

RUG Tempo can ride a creature to victory easier than RUW tempo can, they have better creatures for it. I guess I can concede to geist, but I still think he's very slow for what he does. I've been on the receiving end of him, I'm of the opinion he belongs in a control deck because control decks have enough board control to make sure he isn't getting blocked / dying from getting blocked.

[Hanni]

I guess I don't see how that makes my assessments of whether PoP or PtE belong in this deck--they don't. I would rather run Lightning Helix or something.. I'd almost even rather have Clique to continue disrupting them, it's easier to remove but it helps keep them off what they're doing and beats for three.


I appologize, I missed those points. On those points, I agree with you. Price and Path don't belong in here.


I really don't see tempo decks as much of control decks, Fire/Ice doesn't sound terrible to timewalk them when they're low on mana.


Fire/Ice also taps down a blocker so you can swing in with your Geist for 6.


RUG Tempo can ride a creature to victory easier than RUW tempo can, they have better creatures for it. I guess I can concede to geist, but I still think he's very slow for what he does. I've been on the receiving end of him, I'm of the opinion he belongs in a control deck because control decks have enough board control to make sure he isn't getting blocked / dying from getting blocked.

Whether RUG Tempo is better or not is definitely a valid question. If it is, then that would definitely limit this decks viability. I'm not sure if that is the case or not, though.