Mono-R Sneak Attack

[igri_is_a_bk]

So I've been playing with this proxied and have been pleased with my results so far. I think that Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void are particularly strong right now when you look at the DtB section. With all the aggro-control and combo, Trini and Chalice hold a lot of value in the maindeck. They also provide excellent protection from the Stone Blade variants by stopping Force and StP. All around, I like those two for protection.

I should have been keeping track of my record so far, because it's extremely positive. I haven't though, so I won't spit out some bullshit number for you.

First things first, here's the list...

// Lands
10 [GUR] Mountain
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
4 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Inferno Titan
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Through the Breach
4 [US] Sneak Attack
2 [UL] Pyromancy

// Sideboard
4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
2 [UL] Smash
3 [SHM] Firespout
3 [UL] Defense Grid
3 [MR] Damping Matrix

There are some notable things here.

First, no Chrome Mox. There aren't enough colored spells to pitch in the first place. Plus, I can't imagine wanting to pitch any of the spells I would have. They're all very important.

Second, there's a lack of alternative win condition. This hasn't been relevant, however. I'm sure in the wide-world of legacy, it'd come up eventually, but I don't know if wasting space in the main is worth that off-chance.

Otherwise, pretty standard stuff. The sideboard is no where near perfect. Each of those cards have been very good, though. Reanimator is a really bad matchup unless you're on the play and land Chalice or Trini first turn, so the Faerie Macabre are necessary, unfortunately. Smash to Smithereens is for Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker on Sneak Attack. Fallout is an answer to Teeg and swarm strategies, like Affinity who can drop everything before Trini comes down. Finally, Defense Grid is a solid first turn play on the play or draw against blue. It also is added protection from StP.

Any thoughts, suggestions, "your deck sucks"s; I'd like to hear them.

[ScatmanX]

Nice.
Once upon a time I tryied to assemble a Sneak/Breach deck that used the Stompy manabase/Chalice/Trini and stuff. It was awesome. Pretty much like yours, but going for a combo kill with this:
- all creatures you play
+4 Protean Hulk, +4 Summoner's Pact, +1 Body Double, +1 Reivellark, +1 Boddy Snatcher, +1 Mogg Fanatic, +1 Karmic Guide. I think that's it.
It could often go off as turn 1, like yours.

Another thing is the SB. You can actually play a transformational SB if you want (don't know why I did it, but may be worth it), using like: 4 Gathan Riders, 4 Rakdos Pit Dragon, x Arc-Sloggers, x Something else.
Well, just some ideas...

[tsabo_tavoc]

Very interesting deck. I like the lock pieces, but doubt Scroll Rack can be half as good as Brainstorm, Ponder or Intuition. Also, the deck dies to Gaddock Teeg. Splashing blue for Intuition/Show and Tell may improve the prison list.

Leyline/Helm or Painter/Stone can be the alternative combo. Ingot Chewer can be a better Shatter effect, but you probably don't need if there are Show and Tell and Through the Breach.

[capitacom]

The main reason to keep it mono-red would be to play magus of the moon / blood moon with complete impunity. If you don't, then I don't really see the reason why you wouldn't add the blue splash for brainstorm / intuition. I also think you need lightning bolt or some other way to deal damage so that you don't have to combo out twice to kill someone with through the breach / emrakul. Bolt also deals with gaddock teeg for whom you have zero answers.

REB / pyroblasts should be in the sideboard as blue decks seem like a weak matchup.

[igri_is_a_bk]

The main reason to keep it mono-red would be to play magus of the moon / blood moon with complete impunity. If you don't, then I don't really see the reason why you wouldn't add the blue splash for brainstorm / intuition. I also think you need lightning bolt or some other way to deal damage so that you don't have to combo out twice to kill someone with through the breach / emrakul. Bolt also deals with gaddock teeg for whom you have zero answers.

REB / pyroblasts should be in the sideboard as blue decks seem like a weak matchup.

Like I said, the sideboard isn't perfect yet. An answer to Teeg is nice, but it must cost two.

Chalice of the Void means I don't play 1 cc spells. Defense Grid is already amazing against blue so Pyroblast isn't necessary.

I don't want my sol lands to turn into Mountains. I need them to pump out Sneak Attack and TtB. Otherwise, I have to draw Seething Song. Same goes for my fetches too. Rack becomes a lot worse without them.

[optml]

I like SA decks, so good effort. As for the SB, Ensnaring bridge surprises me. Surely if you're going to get any use out of it, you need few cards in your hand. If not, it may as well be darksteel relic.

If it DOES work as you have no cards in hand, it completely locks down your win con. The only way to get past it is destroy it yourself (by daeling yourself 3 with smash to smithereens or using Primus' ability).

Surely another card should take it's place.

[Sloshthedark]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7189&iddeck=52185
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6119&iddeck=44346
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5661&iddeck=40959

[igri_is_a_bk]

I like SA decks, so good effort. As for the SB, Ensnaring bridge surprises me. Surely if you're going to get any use out of it, you need few cards in your hand. If not, it may as well be darksteel relic.

If it DOES work as you have no cards in hand, it completely locks down your win con. The only way to get past it is destroy it yourself (by daeling yourself 3 with smash to smithereens or using Primus' ability).

Surely another card should take it's place.

Haha, definitely. I have completely been playing that card incorrectly. I can't believe I've never noticed it, nor my opponent. Haha. Yeah, those can certainly come out.

[wert]

Wouldn't Ulmog be a better choice than Woodfall?
I think I would enjoy playing this deck, very sneaky =)

[trivial_matters]

Wouldn't Ulmog be a better choice than Woodfall?
I think I would enjoy playing this deck, very sneaky =)

Woodfall Primus comes back after being sacrificed to Sneak Attack/Through the Breach.

Not to mention, Ulamog is put into play and not cast with the above cards. Annihilator 4 is nothing to be sniffed at though.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Woodfall Primus comes back after being sacrificed to Sneak Attack/Through the Breach.

Not to mention, Ulamog is put into play and not cast with the above cards. Annihilator 4 is nothing to be sniffed at though.

I already have eight guys that blow things up. I want a creature that'll stick around sometimes. If I go off turn two or three, Primus kills two of their lands and usually rides it out for the w.

[Greenpoe]

Inferno Titan is better than Woodfall Primus, at least vs any deck with creatures because: 1.You can hardcast Inferno Titan. 2.If you Sneak Attack/Through the Breach Inferno Titan, you get 6 (!) damage divided up as you choose, or you can swing for 12 damage. That's much more synergestic with your plan than Volcanic Fallout.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Inferno Titan is actually a nice call. It'll likely replace Colossus, not Primus. Colossus kinda sucks if they have a creature. He'll get blocked and get in for 7 or 8 poison and then I have to draw another one or a combination of the other two for lethal damage. I'll probably switch him out. Thanks!

[rufus]

Faithless Looting seems like it should work in any combo deck.
Godo, Bandit Warlord->Batterskull is cute, but probably not strong enough.
I'm not sure wheter Grinning Ignus fits.

Probably not worthwhile, but you could play elementals with Incandescent Soulstoke as an extra method to cheat chards into play and swing with elementals like Liege of the Tangle,Living Hive, and Thunderblust.

[jares]

Hi All,

I was thinking that the following creatures might be worth considering (for either strategic or entertainment purposes :laugh:):

Chancellors (e.g. Chancellor of the Annex)
Other creatures with persist (e.g. Twilight Shepherd)
Creatures with Undying (e.g. Flayer of the Hatebound)

I'll continue exploring this deck a little as I find the control+combo interaction very interesting.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Faithless Looting seems like it should work in any combo deck.
Godo, Bandit Warlord->Batterskull is cute, but probably not strong enough.
I'm not sure wheter Grinning Ignus fits.

Probably not worthwhile, but you could play elementals with Incandescent Soulstoke as an extra method to cheat chards into play and swing with elementals like Liege of the Tangle,Living Hive, and Thunderblust.
I'm thinking that running Faithless Looting alongside Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere might get awkward sometimes, so I'm trying to think of some other draw mechanism that can be a fit alongside those cards.

Isn't Grinning Ignus + Sneak Attack an infinite mana combo? That will prompt us to hard-cast our fatties, so in that configuration, we'll need some game-ending red/colorless creatures.

The elemental route looks like fun, but is likely to be underwhelming.

Kind Regards,
jares

[rufus]

Isn't Grinning Ignus + Sneak Attack an infinite mana combo? That will prompt us to hard-cast our fatties, so in that configuration, we'll need some game-ending red/colorless creatures.

Actually it trades :r: for :2: - so you'd need an unlikely mana washing arrangement to make it infinite.

[Darkenslight]

Actually it trades :r: for :2: - so you'd need an unlikely mana washing arrangement to make it infinite.

Gemstone Array?

[jares]

Gemstone Array?
Nah. This looks like an avenue that might better-off discussed somewhere else. It does provide infinite colorless mana, though, so at least we've got some funky cute combo there :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Unfortunately, the results for my testing of the deck idea have not been too encouraging. I'll probably revisit this idea if ever I come up with something that will help with the innate inconsistencies of the deck.

Cheers,
jares

[igri_is_a_bk]

The biggest problem with these kind of decks are their dependency on the opening seven. I added two Pyromancy for Inferno Titan because I was sick of getting StoPd when I had to mull and don't have Chalice or Trini.

Inferno Titan is still my third favorite creature, so he's still in there as a 2-of. I'd also like to play Koth in there because any planeswalker is good enough. He's no Jace, but he'll do just fine.

[jares]

The biggest problem with these kind of decks are their dependency on the opening seven. I added two Pyromancy for Inferno Titan because I was sick of getting StoPd when I had to mull and don't have Chalice or Trini.

Inferno Titan is still my third favorite creature, so he's still in there as a 2-of. I'd also like to play Koth in there because any planeswalker is good enough. He's no Jace, but he'll do just fine.
I agree. It's worth noting, though, that decks like Dredge, AND and TES are all also dependent on how their opening hands turn out, but, in contrast, these decks still have the consistency of being able to get their winning mechanisms going. Having said that, the problem might not really be the fact that the deck is highly dependent on its opening hand, but because the deck still has built-in inconsistencies that cannot currently be resolved.

Kind Regards,
jares

[nedleeds]

ant and tes use ponder and brokenstorm to fix meh opening hands. dredge just needs to start dredging and can mull with impunity as long as it can find a dredge card and an outlet. this deck is stuck with its opener. I think you add blue .... but keep chalice on one and play intuition and lat-nam's legacy to fix your hands.

[1maarten1]

The deck came in 4th at the Jupiter NELC Qualifier: list here

4th Place Henry Decker
Big Red

Creatures:
4 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Artifact Creatures:
4 Blightsteel Colossus

Legendary Creatures:
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Instants/Sorceries:
3 Through the Breach
4 Seething Song

Artifacts:
1 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void

Enchantments:
4 Sneak Attack
3 Pyromancy

Basic Land:
10 Mountain

Non-Basic Land:
4 Sandstone Needle
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Pyromancy
1 Through the Breach
4 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Volcanic Fallout

[igri_is_a_bk]

Those versions are probably correct because they are better at topdecking. Chalice on 1 to stop Swords is good protection. I'd also like Blood Moon in there, but it's a bad topdeck so it may be right as a sideboard card.

I'm going to update my OP with what I'm testing now.

[Mr. Headshot]

First of all, i would recommed crystal ball to improve consistency. And 3 mana to cast it fits in perfectly.

Secondly i would opt to splash for blue: Show and Tell / Intuition seems to me to good not to splash and they fit nicely in the mana-curve. Futhermore you can continue to run 3-4 Moon effects by adding for exemple a full set of lotus petals and some basic island and fetch-land. It sucks if trinisphere is already down, but solves color-issues and improves pace...:wink:

What do you think?

[death]

Seems like you are trying to reinvent the wheel here. Among the reasons why this mono-red version could be good in my opinion, aside from the fact that it plays Chalices is that it doesn't have any blue spells, meaning it's not cold to random Snapcaster Pyro/REBs on your cantrips/SnT/tutor. Suggesting blue would just make this a bad version of an already Established deck: Sneak Attack w/ Show and Tell.

[Zirath]

Henry (the 4th place list from the NELC) is in the same play group as me. He has built his current list very carefully. You want Sneak Attackers that either win the game immediately or you can hardcast.

Inferno Titan is a monster in the deck since it can come out turn 1-3 with a strong hand (I saw it wreck NLT on turn 1). It also doubles as removal for swarmy decks.

Maindeck Blood Moon/Magus got cut for more stable cards. This deck isn't Dragon Stompy. You do not need to lock your opponent out. There are matches where a lock with Moon or Chalice is incredibly strong but it is not necessary. Chalice is mostly a way of controlling other decks.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I've been testing his build as well, and I'm impressed with its topdeck ability. If my hand was shredded with discard before, then I had to pray that I drew the right stuff. There's pretty much only mana, fatties, and enablers in his list. His list has better odds of just drawing the right pieces.

I like everything about his list, except Blightsteel. I understand he wins the game if left unblocked, but he always gets blocked in my experiences, gets in for 8, then sacs himself. At that point, it's as if nothing happened. You have to draw another Blightsteel or you didn't do anything. I wasn't a fan of splitting up damage and poison.

[Zirath]

I've been testing his build as well, and I'm impressed with its topdeck ability. If my hand was shredded with discard before, then I had to pray that I drew the right stuff. There's pretty much only mana, fatties, and enablers in his list. His list has better odds of just drawing the right pieces.

I like everything about his list, except Blightsteel. I understand he wins the game if left unblocked, but he always gets blocked in my experiences, gets in for 8, then sacs himself. At that point, it's as if nothing happened. You have to draw another Blightsteel or you didn't do anything. I wasn't a fan of splitting up damage and poison.

Blightsteel also pitches to Pyromancy for 11. It's either him, Kozilek or you could try It That Betrays. The fact that his is invulnerable to spot removal (except Swords) is probably the reason he stays in.

Even if Blightsteel gets blocked, they have to throw away their team to stop him from killing them.

[Piceli89]

This deck mathematically loses to Gaddock Teeg pre-sideboard.

[igri_is_a_bk]

@Zirath
That's the thing though. They don't have to throw away their team to stop him. They have to throw away one guy and then he's stopped. I don't get why you don't like Woodfall Primus. He kills two permanents the turn he comes in and stays as a 5/5. He can even block for the first turn.

I'm currently using Emrakul, Primus, Ulamog, and Titan for fatties. I like that package so far.

@Piceli89
Inferno Titan kills Teeg. He gets hardcast frequently, so Teeg isn't the end of the world. And post-board we can get Pyroclasm or Firespout if we need it. I think in two pages, he's been mentioned a few times.

[Piceli89]

@Zirath
That's the thing though. They don't have to throw away their team to stop him. They have to throw away one guy and then he's stopped. I don't get why you don't like Woodfall Primus. He kills two permanents the turn he comes in and stays as a 5/5. He can even block for the first turn.

I'm currently using Emrakul, Primus, Ulamog, and Titan for fatties. I like that package so far.

@Piceli89
Inferno Titan kills Teeg. He gets hardcast frequently, so Teeg isn't the end of the world. And post-board we can get Pyroclasm or Firespout if we need it. I think in two pages, he's been mentioned a few times.

Maverick can consistently veil Gaddock via Mother of Runes on turn 3. I doubt this deck can play Inferno Titan before circumventing MoR.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Game one, they have to figure out what we are before they use their GSZs. That won't always be the case, while g2 and g3, I get extra answers to Teeg. Besides, it's one card. Posting to say a single card that beats another isn't very helpful. Anyways, let's move on now.

[Zirath]

@Zirath
That's the thing though. They don't have to throw away their team to stop him. They have to throw away one guy and then he's stopped. I don't get why you don't like Woodfall Primus. He kills two permanents the turn he comes in and stays as a 5/5. He can even block for the first turn.

I'm currently using Emrakul, Primus, Ulamog, and Titan for fatties. I like that package so far.

I think that's a matter of preference. Primus only kills non-creatures and leaving behind a 5/5 isn't really spectacular in a deck of 15/15s. He also pitches for 8 with Pyromancy. I think that is a considerable difference.

Primus also doesn't really do much against a creature like KotR. At least Blightsteel will take a Knight down with him in an empty board instead of chumping for a turn.

I've seen plenty of Primuses in play and I have personally have never been impressed with them. But again, it's a matter of preference. I think as a rule, Blightsteel is more aggressive and Primus is more defensive.

As far as Maverick goes, I think that Chalice for 1 can make getting Mother of Runes online very difficult, not to mention that they can't save both Mother and Teeg if a Titan comes down.

[PartyMonster]

4xChalice of the Void
2xLotus Petal
2xTrinisphere
4xEmrakul, the Aeons Torn
2xInferno Titan
4xSimian Spirit Guide
2xUlamog, the Infinite G..
4xWorldspine Wurm
2xPyromancy
4xSneak Attack
4xSeething Song
4xThrough the Breach
4xAncient Tomb
2xCity of Traitors
2xCrystal Vein
10xMountain
4xSandstone Needle

Sideboard
4xDefense Grid
2xTrinisphere
2xInferno Titan
4xLeyline of the Void
3xChaos Warp

[shpishay]

There's is a more recent and actively updated version of this thread here: Big-Red-(Mono-R-Sneak-Attack) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24711-Big-Red-(Mono-R-Sneak-Attack)). Can we merge / close this one?