[SCD] Isochron Scepter

[Iron Buddha]

I've got intrigued by Isochron Scepter, since Klaus showed his U/W/R SCM Control list, and then I remembered there was a time when Metalwalker explored the card in his Landstill deck.
How good is it? I especially wonder how good it is outside the context of Scepter-Chant, if it is played rather as a random / supplemental 1 or 2 of.
I've initially dismissed it, because you usually want to cast your StP/PtE right away in the first couple of turns, but you don't want to hold them back for your Isochron Scepter. However, this is not the case with cards like Brainstorm, since you hold BS as long as possible anyway.

[alderon666]

Everybody is just gonna freakout how Ancient Grudge is going to 1000-0 you and dismiss it immediately.

I think that it kinda conflicts with Snapcaster Mage too much. It's just as mana intense, doesn't provide card advantage until the second time you activate it and isn't as flexible. And seeing how SFM is the new control card, having the extra body is too good to pass up.

I could definitely see it working in some control shell. but then again you're probably just playing Jace or something.

[Mr. Safety]

When I first started getting into legacy, a good friend of my mine gave me some sound advice about Isochron Scepter: it needs serious mana-accleration to be viable, like Ancient Tomb. Trying to accomplish it with traditional land drops is a recipe for failure.

I think it has some potential for someone who is daring enough to dig up Grim Monoliths and Voltaic Keys...but if you have that much mana available, you can go for some much more powerful effects like Forgemaster combo. Scepter sits in that uncomfortable mid-range where it doesn't provide enough value when it first comes out. The mid-range plays going on right now are doing much more powerful things (ie Snapcaster Mage, Green Sun's Zenith, or Jace the Mind Sculptor)

[Iron Buddha]

If you imprint a counterspell, Scepter can protect itself against hate. But Ancient Grudge probably gets there nevertheless.


much more powerful things (ie Snapcaster Mage, Green Sun's Zenith, or Jace the Mind Sculptor) The powerlevel of Isochron Scepter is very high. I think it's rather an issue of artefact-hate (Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge are both green, but green is actually not a very strong color against U/W control!) and that you need enough 1-2cc instants. But keep in mind that Jace too encounters hate nowadays like Burn and Vendilion Clique, not to mention that Scepter plays around soft counters.
As good as GSZ and Jace are, Isochron Scepter is still better against combo. In terms of powerlevel Scepter very easily generates much more CA than GSZ or SCM. It's rather the flexibility and flash that makes GSZ and SCM so good.

[GradStudentGuy]

I have a friend who plays it as a 3x in a U/W/R control shell along with ensnaring bridge and shackles and ton of counter magic. Typically Scepter is used as 'finisher' in the deck by imprinting Chant or Fire and ice. Sure counter spell is nice on Scepter but there are much better cards. Also those who are worried about artifact hate just add 1-2 academy ruins in your manabase to get the scepter back. And yes Scepter is great against combo decks at least what I have seen when my friend plays it. But to be fair my friends deck also plays extract in the side board which also helps a ton.

[GGoober]

John Knapp was the primary proponent of Scepter in Landstill:

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/1089

I've played the deck to some success (2 Chants, 2 Scepter MD). The most important thing is that the deck is NOT scepter chant deck. The scepter are more of a mini-planeswalker (something incredibly difficult to deal with and by the time it's dealt with, it would have generated you enough advantage).

I personally wouldn't play Scepters in the current metagame. Spell Snare and Stifles are everywhere and Maverick is a DTB currently so until the meta shifts again, I think Scepter is more of a liability and tempo-loss+card-disadvantage than being beneficial.

But if you can stick StP on a Scepter against aggro (even the bad Merfolks matchup in the past) it is pretty god-damn hilarious.

[Vacrix]

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/216271_1621486777807_1255574760_31252394_1033566_n.jpg


Cards that currently see a lot of play:
Phyrexian Revoker
Stifle
Qasali Pridemage
Pithing Needle

Quite often its just going to be a 2 for 1.

[CorpT]

Cards that currently see a lot of play:
Phyrexian Revoker
Stifle
Qasali Pridemage
Pithing Needle

Quite often its just going to be a 2 for 1.
Decks with:

Revoker (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-11-20&end_date=2012-02-12&simple_card_name[1]=Phyrexian+Revoker): 2
Stifle (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-11-20&end_date=2012-02-12&simple_card_name[1]=Stifle): 18
Pridemage (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-11-20&end_date=2012-02-12&simple_card_name[1]=Qasali+Pridemage): 23
Pithing Needle (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-11-20&end_date=2012-02-12&simple_card_name[1]=Pithing+Needle): 14


Out of a total of 122 decks:
Revoker: 1.6%
Stifle: 14.8%
Pridemage: 18.9%
Needle: 11.5%

I'm not sure I would classify any of those as "a lot".

[lavafrogg]

I would put scepter just under the current power level of counterbalance in todays legacy, and counterbalance see's minimal play right now. Spell snare's are everywhere and thanks to SFM, artifact hate is at the highest level it has been in years(maybe since the split).

For reusable, cheap instants blue mages have snapcaster mage to feast on all of the card advantage that they can get their hearts on...without getting owned by a well timed pridemage/grip/needle/stifle/bounce spell(it could happen). Also getting clicked with only one choosable spell in your hand would be such a beating.

[Zilla]

Decks with:

Revoker (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-11-20&end_date=2012-02-12&simple_card_name[1]=Phyrexian+Revoker): 2
Stifle (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-11-20&end_date=2012-02-12&simple_card_name[1]=Stifle): 18
Pridemage (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-11-20&end_date=2012-02-12&simple_card_name[1]=Qasali+Pridemage): 23
Pithing Needle (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-11-20&end_date=2012-02-12&simple_card_name[1]=Pithing+Needle): 14


Out of a total of 122 decks:
Revoker: 1.6%
Stifle: 14.8%
Pridemage: 18.9%
Needle: 11.5%

I'm not sure I would classify any of those as "a lot".
When more than a third of the decks you're likely to face can 2 for 1 you with a Stifle or a Pridemage? That's certainly not insignificant.

[troopatroop]

How is Stifle a 2 for 1?

[Kich867]

I would try it out for yourself. I run Scepter-Chant in my Turbofog deck which pretty much just rolls everything it comes in contact with and it's largely to do with Scepter-Chant and it's interactions with the rest of the deck..

I get the idea that you can destroy it, and you get 2 for 1'd sort of, but it's a must-answer card. Of course, in theory ( "theory" ) your opponent will always have the answer to it, every time, and casting it is useless because it will always backfire on you, but in reality where people don't always have perfect hands and rarely do, Isochron's Scepter will do work until they find an answer for it.

Must answer cards have this cool effect on the board where if your opponent doesn't deal with it it becomes incredibly problematic. Swords to Plowshares on a stick, Counterspell on a stick, Orim's Chant, Lightning Bolt, and so on--every turn, is absurd.

I would prefer to see this discussion move towards what interesting, useful cards you can put on Isochron Scepter, rather than people lining up to say that it's bad. Just like that time Snapcaster Mage was going to be really bad in legacy and wouldn't see any play outside of people trying it out because they think it's cool ( :pokerface: ... ). As expected, Snapcaster Mage is pretty terrible.

Ok, to be serious for a moment though, they serve a similar role. I'm not saying Isochron Scepter doesn't have the potential to be 2 for 1'd, but I would be saying that if you build a deck that can support using it and you do, you're prepared for that. Scepter's often, in my opinion, present your opponent with a situation that they must answer--failing to answer can result in dominating board control / game control.

It's not an easy card to play, but it's certainly worth it so long as it can survive ~2 turns.

I would probably play it in some kind of Esper-control shell, having targeted discard to keep it clear. Go For the Throat is certainly not the worst thing to put on a stick, nor is any edict effect.

[Dark Ritual]

Only turbofog can run the card currently to great effectiveness but even there it might be meh (I don't play turbofog.) I wish scepter + fire//ice was as powerful now as it was back in 2003 but scepter is just so meh.

Stifle is a 1 for 1 with scepter if you stifle the imprint trigger. If you stifle an activation it's an 1 for 0 if you don't have an answer to scepter before they activate scepter again.

[capitacom]

I would only drop it on turn one off tomb/city or later in the game when you can immediately cast the card as well. That means its never worse than a one for one.
Stifle is as effective against scepter as it is against mystic (discounting a 1/2 body), revoker and needle aren't played a lot so that leaves pridemage in the maindeck and ancient grudge / krosan grip in the sideboard. It is actually pretty good against most decks aside from maverick in the maindeck, and even there its okay as long as you play when you have 4 mana.

I think the biggest problem is finding the right balance between cards you want on a scepter and those you actually want to play in your maindeck. Its powerlevel is high, but snapcaster mage / jace are easier to fit into most lists and are therefore generally better.

[Iron Buddha]

Spell Snare, Stifle, Revoker, Pithing Needle, Pridemage are generally not 2 for 1, since you can activate the Scepter in response / you only imprint if Scepter resolves. They are 1 for 1. If they don't have the answer right away, or if you have a counterspell, which is very probable, Scepter is CA.

In comparison to Counterbalance, Scepter doesn't require you to run SDT. That's a big difference.

Btw Scepter works great with Cunning Wish.

[Vacrix]

Seriously? Once Scepter is in play, Pridgemage, Pithing Needle, and Revoker all turn it off. Those are 2 for 1. Of the cards I mentioned, Stifle is the only exception to that rule which is obviously 1 for 1 because you are stifling the imprint.

Also, Dredge and Reanimator play Pithing Needle in the board while Zoo plays Pridgemage maindeck. Team America and RUG Tempo both maindeck Stifle. Thats half the DTB.


EDIT:
Also, This.

When more than a third of the decks you're likely to face can 2 for 1 you with a Stifle or a Pridemage? That's certainly not insignificant.

[Iron Buddha]

If I'm correct:
I play Scepter, it resolves, imprint Brainstorm / PtE,
opponent has Pridemage in play, destroys Scepter,
in response I activate Scepter for BS / PtE their Tarmogoyf
=> 1 for 1

the argument loses a lot of power if it's only a one for one trade.

[Vacrix]

Okay... your BS/PtE costs 4 and you only get to play it once. The point of Scepter is that you can keep playing it. Thats called a 2 for 1.

Besides SDT is way better than Scepter + BS. You ought to be imprinting something good like Chant.

[GGoober]

That's why currently it is not ideal to play Scepter in the metagame where Spell Snare, Stifle, Maverick is popular.

Anyway, in the past when playing against people who boarded hate against Scepter, it is best to resolve Scepter at 4 mana, giving yourself at least UU floating for counterspell or :2: floating to use Scepter at least once in case it gets destroyed. This avoids the 2-1 situation. Sure it is less ideal that you resolve Scepter later on turn 4 than running it out on turn 2, but that's the price you pay playing a control deck making sure your win condition is safe. The same goes for playing Ensnaring Bridge/Counterbalance/Humility/Moat where you want to make sure you have mana/counterspells to protect it from being destroyed.

This is why I stopped playing control for some time, because it's a pain in the butt to see unfair decks rip you apart with just 1-3 lands in play :P

Right now a lot of people are focusing on the negative side of Scepter, which is fair because getting 2-1'd sucks. But getting 2-1'd playing FoW is similar although there is no mana investment which is huge when casting FoW. On the positive side, if you do stick a Scepter in play, it becomes a nightmare card-advantage engine that is incredibly hard to deal with and if they did deal with it, you would have generated cards/defense and then just cast a Jace and fateseal them to death.

[Malchar]

You have to use the ability 3 times before you get +1 card advantage (2 times to break even). If they destroy it before you use it, then you just got hymn to tourach'd.

To use it 3 times will cost 8 mana plus the initial casting and risk of losing 2 for 1. Something like ancestral vision gives you more card advantage at less risk and way less mana and it takes about the same amount of time to pay off as well. Even inspiration is potentially better. The only advantage of the scepter is if you absolutely need to cast the exact same spell more than 4 times each game. With all the redundancy in counterspells and good removal in legacy, it seems like you should be fine just drawing more cards rather than using the same spell over and over.

[Iron Buddha]

They have to invest a card to destroy it, so you only need two activations for CA.

While three activations + initial casting cost = 8 mana, whereas AV only costs a single mana, you have to take into account, that not only have you drawn those cards, you also have played them.

But I see that Scepter would be stronger if Stifle, etc. didn't get played as much.


it seems like you should be fine just drawing more cards rather than using the same spell over and over. Control generally dedicates most of its slots to creature-removal, since it's a metagame deck. So casting the same spell over and over is exactly what you want in some matchups. Besides, Combo is probably one of those matchups where artefact hate is rather rare.

[Kich867]

So casting the same spell over and over is exactly what you want in some matchups.

This is what is important about Scepter. Drawing three cards is not drawing the exact card you need/want, it's drawing 3 possibilities. Card selection is often better than raw card advantage. I wouldn't bother putting Brainstorm on scepter, what good does that actually do? It lets you maybe find something useful once a turn, why not put something useful on it, like Go For the Throat?

People talk about card advantage in kind of a weird vague way--3 cards vs the 2 cards you actually want, 2 cards wins, always. Ancestral Visions is a fantastic bulk-drawing card, but if you hit 3 land with it what good did it do you but give you a rather small chance to draw a land next turn?

I would rather Scepter a GFTT and kill 2 creatures with it than Ancestral Visions if killing creatures was the thing I wanted. Having the answer VS hoping you find the answer is a very different situation. I'll risk the ability to go 3-4 turns with having a GFTT on a stick, absolutely. Recurring removal is very strong.

I think a more interesting discussion would be comparing Isochron's Scepter to other forms of recurring removal.

Punshing Fire / Groves is certainly better with your cards but it gives your opponent life and a wasteland shuts it off for awhile. Comparing that to Isochron's Scepter with a Lightning bolt on it.

PFG - 3 mana, your opponent gains 1 life, deal 2 damage to target creature or player. Susceptible to graveyard hate and wasteland.

IS/LB - 2 mana investment, 2 mana per use, deal 3 damage to target creature or player, susceptible to stifle and artifact hate.

I'm going to confidently say that PFG is better, but I'm wondering by how much. Scepter, with a greater initial mana investment and smaller later mana investment, higher damage, and less of a drawback to use it, it doesn't sound that terrible. Artifact hate, albeit being present in the best deck around, isn't actually all that present in the mainboard of many decks. Maverick is pretty much it.

I'm inclined to try it in a Burning Bridge archetype and go mostly creatureless, one of burn's problems is running out of gas, Pulp_Fiction's use of Sensei's Divining Top and Ensnaring Bridge in the deck is inspiring. Dropping a bolt on a stick might win games you otherwise wouldn't, who knows.

Also, if I had.. what.. like ~$1,200 to drop on a playset of underground sea's and tundra's, I'd definitely stick Isochron Scepter in an Esper control shell with swords / Gftt / Chant and see what happens.

Anyone remember when duals were like $15-20? I don't, I was about 10 when they were like that, if only I got into magic sooner :frown:.

[Malchar]

Control generally dedicates most of its slots to creature-removal, since it's a metagame deck. So casting the same spell over and over is exactly what you want in some matchups. Besides, Combo is probably one of those matchups where artefact hate is rather rare.

The best-case scenario with scepter is always going to be better than drawing random cards with ancestral vision. However, the best case scenario is much riskier and harder to achieve than simply resolving a draw spell.

Besides the normal difficulties of resolving a spell, you also have to dodge stifle and artifact/permanent removal or you get two-for-one'd. If they counter/stifle your card draw spell, it's just a one-for-one. Also, you need to get the scepter and a valuable imprint card in hand simultaneously. If it takes too long to assemble, then even if you get counterspell or swords to plowshares on the scepter, you could still lose to an advanced board position, in which case it would have been better to draw a wrath effect (or 3 swords to plowshares :p).

[Mr. Safety]

It seems to me that Scepter can be most accurately categorized as a prison strategy, but without the drawbacks of Chalice/Trini hosing your Brainstorms/2 mana instants. I agree that Chant/Silence are your best imprint targets, hands down. If I were to attempt a Scepter deck in the current metagame (which, as has already been mentioned, is quite challenging) I would start with this:

4x Isochron Scepter
4x Orim's Chant
2x Silence
3x Fire//Ice
4x Lightning Helix
3x Spell Snare
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Spell Pierce
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
1x Plateau
2x Volcanic Island
3x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains

[Iron Buddha]

Just to make that clear: I don't quite understand why you say that Scepter is a two for one. If wait until you have 4 lands you can avoid getting two for one'd. That makes Scepter technically a 4c card. You can play it earlier, but you don't have to, that's only a bonus.

I certainly wouldn't chose Scepter, if I wanted to beat creature-based decks. (I would run Humility, PTE, WoG, EE, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Disk, Deed, Bolt,...) I'm thinking of Scepter as a way to beat non-creature decks with a deck that is normally not made to beat non-creature decks. Because if you load you're deck up with creature-removal you just don't have space anymore for counterspells and the like.
Scepter is actually very similiar to Counterbalance (one card that singlehandedly beats certain decks) except that you don't need SDT and it's colorless. (not that SDT is bad, lol, but sometimes you just don't want it for various reasons)

And Punishing Fires: Punishing Fires is dead against combo + it's red. If you ask me the best color in Legacy are blue and white, but not red, and green is worst.

While I see that Stifle, Pridemage, Ancient Grudge is not a nice environment, I think you are exaggerating things.

1. Stifle and Pridemage are played by creature decks. If your deck is made to beat those decks: Maverick, Zoo, Tempo Thresh, then you beat them, no matter if you run Scepter or not.

2. It's a only a one for one trade if you wait until you have 4 mana.

3. They will most certainly already have played that Stifle on your Fetchland/EE.

4. Pridemage is a creature and as such you should have plenty of ways to kill it and free the path for your Scepter. I mean if you have an active!!! Scepter and they try to play Pridemage afterwards,...

5. Stifle on Deed, EE, Fetchland,... is just as worse


EDIT: This is what I have in mind:

24 mana-sources
3 Wish
4 Jace
4 BS
2 WoG
1 Humility
4 StP
3 PtE
3 EE
4 FoW
4 CS
1 Isochron Scepter
3 open slots

As you can see the deck is made to beat creature-based strategies, but may have serious problems dealing with non-creature decks. So Scepter can turn things around. Cunning Wish with E. Tutor can dig it up.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

I used to run Scepter in Zoo in the pre-goyf days with a lot of success. It does allow a lot of flexibility depending on what you're playing against. If you need reach/survivability in mid to late game situations it can do that with something like Lightning Helix. Conversely, if you can resolve a scepter early enough the card advantage in creates can easily be overwhelming. Dropping a Fire/Ice can bury an opponent quickly by picking off mans and drawing cards for you. Sticking a Chant stick is also a nice auto win out of the blue.

[dontbiteitholmes]

There's really no reason to play Scepter unless you are trying to abuse it.
Scepter has been outclassed with the coming of Planeswalkers. They have abilities that provide constant card advantage, they are great topdecks lategame unlike Scepter, they don't require mana after the initial investment, they basically are everything Scepter every wanted to be short of Scepter-Chant. Then on the other end there's Snapcaster. Scepter makes you have to hold on to your best spell hoping you'll draw Scepter so you can put it on a stick and abuse it. With Snapcaster you can drop all your good stuff early then when you topdeck him late game you get another go at it and get a 2/1 dude for your trouble.

[Mr. Safety]

There's really no reason to play Scepter unless you are trying to abuse it.
Scepter has been outclassed with the coming of Planeswalkers. They have abilities that provide constant card advantage, they are great topdecks lategame unlike Scepter, they don't require mana after the initial investment, they basically are everything Scepter every wanted to be short of Scepter-Chant. Then on the other end there's Snapcaster. Scepter makes you have to hold on to your best spell hoping you'll draw Scepter so you can put it on a stick and abuse it. With Snapcaster you can drop all your good stuff early then when you topdeck him late game you get another go at it and get a 2/1 dude for your trouble.

I agree with you...PW's are like mini-combos in one card that provide for much more room and flexibility when building decks. Nicely worded. The only real difference is that PW's can be attacked/burned, which can sometimes mean that you only get one activation out of them. It may be a good activation, and a neccessary one, but only one means that mana efficiency is pretty low. Four mana for a Brainstorm from Jace isn't that fantastic when the maverick player hustles two Punishing fires to tank him.

This is why I feel that redundancy is important. If someone is dedicated to building a scepter deck, there isn't a better win condition than adding in Jace. He does everything the deck wants and nothing it doesn't. Most importantly is the redundancy of Brainstorm...if you don't have a spell to imprint you can just focus on landing Jace and protecting him. His Brainstorms will feed you spells to imprint on the dead scepter in your hand, or he can just win by himself with the support from Force, Swords, Brainstorm, and Wasteland. Not to mention they'll be so twisted up on how to deal with Jace that scepter will be more of an afterthought. I compare it to a Staxx deck, essentially trimming out one piece, allowing you to lock the game up with 2 elements rather than needing all 3 to lock the game up.

Staxx = Chalice, Trinisphere, Smokestack
Scepter = Scepter, Jace

I tried a horrible deck early on in my legacy experience by trying to squeeze Scepter-Chant into a fairies deck with Bitterblossom. If they dealt with Scepter, I rode BB. If they dealt with BB, I rode Scepter. The problem is that the tempo and control decks don't have any trouble dealing with BOTH if given enough time...and they always had too much time while I was trying to establish the 1-2 punch of BB and Scepter.

Long story short (too late!), this:


There's really no reason to play Scepter unless you are trying to abuse it.

[dontbiteitholmes]

On a related note many of the first generation Zoo decks ran Isochron Scepter. Oh how far we have progressed.

[Mr. Safety]

On a related note many of the first generation Zoo decks ran Isochron Scepter. Oh how far we have progressed.

And now it has progressed to some zoo decks using Elspeth (ie Big Zoo)

[dontbiteitholmes]

And now it has progressed to some zoo decks using Elspeth (ie Big Zoo)

Which goes back to my original point of why planeswalkers replace Scepter's usefulness in most situations.

[Mr. Safety]

:wink: Bingo. Good convo.

[ChiiMagic]

It's been a while guys but I found myself bored at work and looking forward to GP Indy, so I was perusing the source. I feel pretty confidant saying that I don't think anybody has played with isochron scepter as much as me so I'll weigh in here. It is CERTAINLY viable, but I haven't had the time to start testing it. For the critics of the card, I stuck this thing in Landstill when krosan grips, ancient grudges, and qasali pridemages just ran rampant, so to say that these cards are played doesn't really make me second think jamming some scepters into my 60 at all. You can always board them out if you think your opp is overloading on artifact removal, and as long as you play with them carefully you can usually avoid getting 2 for 1ed with it by at least casting the spell off it and going 1-1 scepter for their removal spell. The thing that makes me less inclined to play the scepters currently is the ridiculous amts of maindeck spell snares running about in RUG, UW Stoneforge, and any other blue decks. I would rather just go over the top of these fast decks with some bombo 4 drops like we used to in landstill's hayday. To get back on topic though, I feel like the format is not prime right now for scepters, but I'm always looking for the shift to bring those suckers back in. Just my two cents though. Prove me wrong buddy!

[kusumoto]

Wouldn't it be good to imprint Ancestral Vision on Isochron Scepter ?

That works right?

[Lovec]

No, because Ancestral Vision is sorcery card. Can't be imprinted. :)

[kusumoto]

No, because Ancestral Vision is sorcery card. Can't be imprinted. :)

Silly me thinking of Ancestral Recall again.

[kiblast]

You can always board them out if you think your opp is overloading on artifact removal
Well if your opponents overloads on artifact removal and you are only playing 2 Scepters, you are happy anyways since he almost completely misboarded. I can happily take a K grip or something else on my Scepter if you boarded in too heavily in that direction.


The thing that makes me less inclined to play the scepters currently is the ridiculous amts of maindeck spell snares running about in RUG, UW Stoneforge, and any other blue decks.

Well you play a shitload of 2ccs spell anyways (2-4 Counterspell, 3-4 Standstill, 0-4 Stoneforge Mystic, 0-2 Scepters) If they counter Scepter is a 1-1 Trade and I'd rather have them waste a Snare on my Scepter than on a game winning Standstill.

[Barook]

Better necroing this thread instead of opening a new one.

Kinda wondering how good Scepter is now.

Pridemages kinda went extinct along with Maverick. Yes, Abrupt Decay sees lots of play in the format right now.

But:
- you can also imprint Abrupt Decay on Scepter - mini-Vindicates on a stick sounds too good to pass once you have 4 mana, since you can trade at the very least 2 for 2 in that case
- Boros Charm does not only provide utility, but also a solid five-turn clock

[TsumiBand]

Better necroing this thread instead of opening a new one.

Kinda wondering how good Scepter is now.

Pridemages kinda went extinct along with Maverick. Yes, Abrupt Decay sees lots of play in the format right now.

But:
- you can also imprint Abrupt Decay on Scepter - mini-Vindicates on a stick sounds too good to pass once you have 4 mana, since you can trade at the very least 2 for 2 in that case
- Boros Charm does not only provide utility, but also a solid five-turn clock

AD is as good on a Scepter as against it, though. Unless your other Scepter already has Boros Charm on it.

I don't find the planeswalker comparison entirely apt, because it sort of devolves into a "threats v. answers" discussion and honestly, any deck that wins by sending creatures into the red zone is full of answers to planeswalkers. At the risk of invoking math that I'm not actually going to do, I'd wager that there are more answers to planeswalkers in any given metagame than there are artifacts.

The simple fact is Isochron Scepter has the same problems as Auras; you do open yourself up to card disadvantage even if you're trying to be cute about it and wait until turn 4 to drop it. And by then if your opponent hasn't forced you to use whatever you were going to put on the Scepter, you probably have little to worry about from that opponent anyway.

[sillyandrew]

if you can get the timing right, memory lapse on a scepter ends games.

[Viridia]

Boros Charm on a Scepter is pretty amazing, if you get a 2nd Scepter online it's pretty much over at that point :P

[Shawon]

The last time Isochron Scepter was good was Odyssey-Ravnica Extended in 2005. Isochron Scepter, in Legacy, never has and will always be a terrible strategy, no matter how many sexy imprintable instants it receives with new sets.

[twndomn]

The key of abusing Scepter is Not to commit too much to it. If your deck is already packing instants, like mono red burn, sure you can put in 2 scepters, not a big deal if you don't have it.

If you put too much attention to it, then you're bound to lose. The last time Scpeter worked, is opponent's EOT Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, then on your own turn scepter imprint chant. However, this is no longer powerful since all these Planeswalkers running around.

[Zombie]

It was actually also used in Extended Zoo to give the deck a better endgame. Zoo with infinite Helixes is kinda scary.

[SpikeyMikey]

Okay... your BS/PtE costs 4 and you only get to play it once. The point of Scepter is that you can keep playing it. Thats called a 2 for 1.

Besides SDT is way better than Scepter + BS. You ought to be imprinting something good like Chant.

I know this was a hella long time ago, but I found this post amusing. I remember when WWK came out, I started running a misers Jace in my CounterTop deck. It was so good, I quickly added a second, then a third. When I tried to talk to people about how amazing the card was, I got similar responses. Ok, so you're paying 4 mana, at sorcery speed, for a Brainstorm or an Unsummon and then your opponent just Bolts it. That's terrible. Of course, 2 months later, everyone was running Jace and now he's a defining card of the format.

Thing is, a card that more or less wins the game when it's not dealt with immediately is strong. That's why Dark Confidant is so strong. Jace, TMS. Counterbalance (with Top). Moat. I used to run a Mystical and an Enlightened in my Landstill (and now we're going back 8 years) and people said the same thing. You're just 2-for-1-ing yourself by missing a draw to tutor for something. And sure, sometimes, they have the answer and you're set back a little. Sometimes, they don't have the answer, and you untap with the counterspell and you just won the game. The question isn't "can this be answered" because the answer to that question is always yes. The question is "will this card win more games than it loses?".

That having been said, in a format filled to the brim with Abrupt Decay, stick - as near and dear as it is to my heart (as DontBiteItHolmes pointed out, the original San Diego Zoo ran 4 sticks main) - is not where I'd want to be right now. The only place I could see running it would be some sort of oddball Miracles build and there only because you're stretching their artifact/enchantment removal already with RiP, Energy Field, Helm and Counterbalance. But so many of the things you want to run in that deck don't fit on stick, which would make it very difficult to come up with a list that could support it effectively without just being straight up worse without it.

[morgan_coke]

I've been messing around with it in a UWR cloudpost deck that also packs Cunning Wishes. haven't been even a little disappointed. Abeyance is a lot of fun because it turns off fetches and 'walkers and whatnot, plus it draws you cards.

[SpikeyMikey]

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=36598

This is a link to a Zoo deck from the first Legacy worlds. Note the use of Isochron Scepter. Contrary to your opinion, stick was a thing in Legacy. This was in August of 2005. The deck had been around since September of 2004 when the format was split from the T1 banned list and had been a major factor nationally for at least 8 or 9 months, meaning this wasn't some untuned list of an untested archetype that just caught people by surprise.

Morgan: that seems interesting. How good is it? Are we talking casual level or something competitive?

You know better than to engage in this kind of flaming. -HiVal

[Iron Buddha]

you can activate the scepter at least once before it gets destroyed, meaning that you can always choose not to get 2 for 1'd

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Noob speaking here, but Isochron is only good in the right meta. The first time I asked if Isochron would be good in a non-standard format (either ye old Extended or Legacy), Affinity was one of the top dogs, and everybody overloaded on artifact removal, namely Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge. Today, with a heavy presence of BGx decks in the meta, Isochron has to fear Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, and the occasional Pernicious Deed.

Honestly, it feels like it would only be good in a primarily fair meta, with minimal presence of artifact, enchantment, or even planeswalker focused decks. In other words, it won't be good for any time soon.

[DragoFireheart]

If you imprint a counterspell, Scepter can protect itself against hate. But Ancient Grudge probably gets there nevertheless.


Or Abrupt Decay.

[twndomn]

Or Abrupt Decay.

Only with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir on your side in play, you can then prevent Abrupt Decay from happening. However, that still doesn't prevent Planeswalker(s) like Karn to get rid of it.

[TraxDaMax]

Boros charm seems like a reasonable finisher, being able to protect scepter at the same time.
Other then that and chant playing scepter is scary imo. Perhaps a standstill shell.

[dontbiteitholmes]

you can activate the scepter at least once before it gets destroyed, meaning that you can always choose not to get 2 for 1'd

Which costs 4 mana and then 2 more mana every turn to get value. I mean it's 6 mana and 2 turns just to "break even" on 2 activations. Which leads back to my point of at that point why not just play Jace, Elspeth, Garruk, Lilliana, hell ever Ajani Vengeant.

[Barook]

Boros charm seems like a reasonable finisher, being able to protect scepter at the same time.
Other then that and chant playing scepter is scary imo. Perhaps a standstill shell.
As good as Boros Charm on a Scepter might be, it can't protect if you choose to burn your opponent unless you have multiple Scepters.

And I don't think the Chant plan is any good with Abrupt Decay around. If anything, I would rather aim for card advantage instead of a lock that can be easily broken. Teferi is too expensive for Legacy to create the lock.


Only with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir on your side in play, you can then prevent Abrupt Decay from happening. However, that still doesn't prevent Planeswalker(s) like Karn to get rid of it.
Only with the Scepter lock. Without it, he does jackshit.