UB Tempo ( Winner of 18.02.2012 russian legacy champ)

[ultra_a]

Hi everyone :)
I want to show you some new vision upon team america ( TA later in the text) deck.

To start with I want to explain, why regular TA ( and the BUG) isnt that good now
(I won't argue with TA/BUG players here, I just point the key weaknesses, that are crucial for me)
1)Goyf is easily spell snared. So is the Hymn
2)Goyf is easily blocked by another goyf, champed by manadork with mother of runes and is smaller than Knight of the Reliquary
3)Deck doesnt provide a good clock.
4)Cantrips require U, goyf – G and hymn BB. You cant afford it, because everyone plays a set of wastelands, probably with stifles, or even Price of Progress/Blood Moon. I guess that's the main reason Monored Painter topped Amsterdam GP.
5)Deck suffers from any swords or grave hate, partly because it cant kill fast enough and discards at random, not directly the threat
6)In addition to 2) and 3) TA has painful removal ( snuff out, though, is great), that's why it cannot beat zoo/merfolks/goblins consistenly

BUG has the same problems plus the following
1)key spells cost a lot ( hello, daze), so it doesnt work with wastelands properly
2)Jace costs UU, liliana BB and Goyf G, so opponent's wasteland can ruin the game
3)too many discard cards, so topdeck quality in midgame is poor
4)only 4-6 cantrips
5)even worse clock, than TA has
6)snapcaster is very mana intensive and can be blasted/spell snared
7)in addition to fast aggro ( including burn and UR Delver), has very hard matchups against RUG or dredge
Green is for goyf and deed in sideboard, which isnt fast enough, so why not just throw them away and play UB?

Recently I and my friend developed a new version of tempo, that ran X-1, X-0 in all regular events and finally some days ago won the swiss ( X-1) and 2-0 2-0 2-0'ed in the top ( killed Abolisher Ceph.Breakfast, UW Thopters CounterTop and Reanimator) to win the Russian Legacy champ.

Here is the list he played

“Russian Airlines” ( or come to Moscow GP 2012 :) )
created by Ivan Alexandrov, played by Grigory Griaznov
Special thx to Alexander Smirnov ( Ajsmirnov here on forum) for heavy playtesting it :)
*[EDITED] List is updated on 14.06.12

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Snuff Out
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Torpor Orb

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Nausea
3 Perish
2 Reanimate
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize


*List that won the event is here, all following text is for the original list, but fits for this as well of course
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7741&iddeck=56326


So, lets explain why this is better than decks above
1)No random in discarding. Spells that costs 4+ are not the big deal with all the mana denial in the world. Still, you can split inquisition with thoughtseize.
2)Direct discard + 8 cantrips are excellent ( you know what you're digging for )
3)Snuff Out is much better that dismember, because it is free and you can ignore black creatures such as Dark Confidant ( and of course spell snare it with spare mana)
4)Clock is very fast and your opponent cant champ. Any combination of early 2 creatures race anything.
5)Torpor Orb isnt only support for Dreadnought, it turns of all mystics/snapcasters/goblins/adepts/finks/clique's etc.
6)Deck has 2 colors and you can easily search for island turn 1 and play on 2 lands including wasteland. Manabase is very stable.
7)Relic of Progenitus is the only grave hate, that does something against the deck
8)Opponent's spell snares does completely nothing.

I also think, that in many ways it is even better than RUG.
Main problem is when your Goyf is countered with Spell Snare. Opponent might have STP ( or any removal) in his hand, but you're already forced to counter that snare.
Mongoose is untargetable ( it is awesome), but 3/3 isnt that much it was 2 years before.
RUG can not deal with big Knight of the Reliquary.
In other words: RUG's creatures cant work without burn spells, mana denial doesnt work without burn spells also ( kills manadorks). So you invest your counters to follow the aggro or denial plan depending on starting hand, without any information about opponent's hand or even deck. One plan basically doesn't work without another.

In UB though, story is different. You discard the threat ( or even a manadork or early drop )and the plan becomes clear. You know exactly what land to fetch, what to counter and what can possible race you. Even without it, early nought and stalker give an opportunity to invest all counters to protect it, because they win dramatically fast. You dont have to waste a turn to bolt a manadork, just pay 4, that usually doesn't matter.
You have an opportunity to change a plan fast and to win fast. Proper removal and enormous creatures ensure that your clock is good.

Than there is the question about matches against combo decks.
I cant say RUG is perfect here, because it isn't. Plan is a clock + soft counters. That works fine with combos, going off “slowly”, like ANT and High Tide, but if you tap out against reanimator and TES, you probably lose. I dont even mention dredge, which is the RUG's nightmare of all time. You cant counter all enablers dredge has and goyf is stopped by any zombie.

On the other side, Ub is deck, that provides discard and counters, which is more optional in combo matchups.
UB has better clock and free removal ( against reanimator). Dredge matchup is different too, you can afford imp resolve, because dreadnought simply races a bit of tokens ( don't forget that unstifled nought removes Bridge from Below).

And the last point – massacre is brilliant. For free you kill mystic/geist/hierarch/mother of runes/arbor/snapcaster/mindcensor/qasali pridemage and so on.

As you can see, the Pro's are impressive. What about Con's?
Well, they are obvious.
1)Nought is a 2-card combo. Cantrips solve that one
2)In metagame, which is heavily packed with Krosan Grips ( I hardly believe in that), Nought can become an easy target ( also expect ancient grudges). Dont try to play against them, just board noughts out and play control role reanimating their dead/discarded Knights or Goyfs.
3)Any tempo-based deck suffers from STPs and after sb an opponent can have 7+ of them. Counterbalance is a chalice with X = 1 ( around 30 1-costs with cantrips). You need only two turns to kill, so it very possible to make perfect topdecks even without Sensei's divining Top ( which is very mana intensive and doesnt fit here).
4)No artifact hate at all. Well, mystic is too slow and stupid against orb; batterskull cant win the race against dreadnought, also living weapon can be stifled. If you expect a lot of chalices or trinispheres you can pack bounce in sb.

There're some cards, that can be useful in the deck.
1)Darkblast. Sounds crazy, but against maverick it is a free win.
2)Phantasmal Image ( in sideboard). Copies Geist/Thrun/Knight/Stalker. Alternative plan agains Grips/Grudges.
3)Virtue's ruin. Against maverick and UW is a wrath for 3
4)Diabolic Edict. Good against sneak attack, reanimator, but I dont think you need it.
5)Leyline of the Void. Well, if you're so paranoid about dreadge/reanimator side it, but I think its an overkill.
I might forget some obvious cards so I appreciate if you tell me about them.

Common matchups.
1)Maverick ( most popular and powerful aggro right now). If it runs Punishing Fire its an easy win, otherwise approx 40-60 before sb depending on the roll ( on play you win ~100%).
2)Any combo ( ANT, TES, reanimator, high tide). Huge favorite. You lose to goldfish only.
Xantid Swarm brings some problems, but you have discard and counterbalance.
3)UW. If an opponent doesn't know about torpor orb its free win. Discard just in time you want to go off with Nought.
4)Merfolks. One of the most difficult ones. They are a bit favorite, but cant win against dreadnought turn 2. Not many merfolks in the field right now to be really worried about them
5)CounterTops. A rare one too. If they have STP + lock you probably lose ( but tombstalker is still an out), otherwise they are huge underdog. I think its pretty similar to RUG vs. Countertop matchup, but you can kill creatures with snuff out.
6)Goblins. We played it only 2 or 3 times and with torpor orb it was a demolition. Stifle and Daze are the key cards.
7)Zoo. Depends on the speed of zoo, more heavy – easier to win. Any discard + nought hand is a win.
8)Finally, RUG. Spell Snares do nothing, just discard threat or counter and win. Furthermore, you have basic lands and RUG doesnt.

All in all, I consider, that against almost every deck UB plays same or better then RUG, not including surprising factor, which makes it a proper deck to beat right now.
All suggestions will be appreciated, I will be glad if the deck becomes popular.
Thanks for reading, I.A.

[Hanni]

Is this thread only for the discussion of Dreadnought based lists, or is this a thread for the discussion of U/B Tempo in general?

I ask this, because I haven't seen a thread to discuss U/B Tempo anywhere else, and my build doesn't run Dreadnought.

I'll post my list up, but if you feel that this doesn't belong in your thread, I can delete it:

U/B Tempo 2012

// Lands (20)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (10)
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells (30)
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [GP] Repeal
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

I originally started out with the Stifle/Wasteland gameplan, but eventually decided that I was alot more concerned about protecting my threats than I was about attacking my opponent's manabase. However, I could easily cut the 4 Inquisitions for 4 Stifle's if I decided to revert back.

Basically, the deck just wants to disrupt the opponent as much as possible early game, dropping a beater and protecting it for the win. Creature removal is alot less necessary when all of the creatures have evasion.

[death]

1)No random in discarding. Spells that costs 4+ are not the big deal with all the mana denial in the world. Still, you can split inquisition with thoughtseize.

Enemy Force of Will, Tombstalker, Batterskull all of which costs 2 mana (or less) not that big of a deal?

[Kich867]

Enemy Force of Will, Tombstalker, Batterskull all of which costs 2 mana (or less) not that big of a deal?

Tombstalker is in so few decks he isn't an actual..real..thing. Batterskull, meet dreadnaught, force of will, well, sometimes you just have to eat one to the face.

Lately, given decks are less and less reliant on bombs, I find it nice when someone FOW's me..by all means, 2 for 1 yourself. IoK is going to hit everything you need it to hit in the timeframe that you care about. It's the most flexible targeted discard, if you hit the right targets then by the time they can even drop those bombs you shouldn't even care about it.

What's batterskull to your 12/12 trampler?

[wcm8]

I like how this build looks and I think a few more printings could really push it over the top. I kind of agree that Tarmogoyf can be underwhelming at times, but he also functions as pseudo-removal by being a wall against aggro decks. Also, splashing green grants access to Pernicious Deed, Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, etc.

With your build you are basically always forced to be on the offense, meaning you can be in a lot of trouble if your first threat gets killed.

Dreadnought is certainly a great card to get random wins.

[kingsey]

I've always loved casting 12/12's but, i've noticed they can sit in your hand like nails without stifle. The orb does run into spell snare, but with all the CiP creatures ran now its a good card. I've been in love with tombstalker myself. I've been running a UBr list.

4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Island
4 Stifle
4 Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Tombstalker
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
1 Badlands
3 Terminate

[Ajsmirnov]

I like the list with Noughts. Playtested some games against it with Maverick, and it was a real beating. I hardly won 3 of 10. Running Noughts over Cliques could be worth considering, as its a better clock and cannot be randomly negated by Karakas or Scryb ranger. Also the whole deck ignores Thrun.

As a former blue player I like new goods decks appear. Maybe time to start casting Brainstorms again.

[dsck]

Isnt Trickbind better than Torpor Orb? You dont want to give their spell snares targets, right?

[ultra_a]

Thx for comments

About your lists.
1) Hymn isnt needed. I mean at all. BB only for stalker.
This deck wants to install a beater or ruin manabase instead of discarding random cards.
Main reason is BB cost and spell snare vulnarability though + crappy topdeck in midgame
2) Clique is 3/1 for 3 with effect, which doesnt do anything: you cant cycle removal anyway. 3 mana is way too much for the deck
3) Removal should be free, it is the key, or would you waste a turn to kill hierarch with terminate?

Some words about red color
1) You dont need bolt with 12/12 trample and all others with flying.
2) Terminate requires BR and your ponder in the opening hand requires U. What will you choose? Also it costs 2 mana. Snuff Out does exactly the same for 0
3) Grim Lavamancer. It should be reason #1 to play red maindeck. Well, it requires at least basic mountain and doesnt work with tombstalker. With dreadnought mancer is useless, better protect the big guy.
4) Pyroblast. Reason #1 to splash red in general. Better discard a threat/cantrip, than leave one of two lands open for pyroblast. And again, its ruining the manabase.

About torpor orb - sure, it can be snared, but(!) it provides powerful effect. Every nought you find in the deck will be 12/12 for 1. Every snapcaster/mystic*etc your opponent plays will be 2/1 for 2. With trickbind you need 3 mana to install nought, in some cases you dont have 3. And it needs 3 mana to be cast with brainstorm.

[lordofthepit]

There are too many copies of Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Qasali Pridemage, Green Sun's Zenith, Krosan Grip, Jace, etc. where I play, so I really don't want to rely on Phyrexian Dreadnought. If you were to build a deck without Dreadnought, how would you construct it? (Or would you consider it a different deck entirely?)

[fallenphoenix]

Clique is 3/1 for 3 with effect, which doesnt do anything

Wow, I don't know what to say. Apparently you haven't played a lot against or with Clique.
If I had to point out any single creature that has won me the most games ever, it would easily be this one (contested only by Goyf's performance in the past, but that era is over).

I'm not implying that it's an auto-include, but I would at least seriously consider it, even if it turns out to not fit into the deck.

[Tao]

But the effect doesn't do anything with Torpor Orb in play ;)

[wert]

Wow, I don't know what to say. Apparently you haven't played a lot against or with Clique.
If I had to point out any single creature that has won me the most games ever, it would easily be this one (contested only by Goyf's performance in the past, but that era is over).

I'm not implying that it's an auto-include, but I would at least seriously consider it, even if it turns out to not fit into the deck.
I think what he meant is that the clique wouldn't play nice with Torpor Orb. Vendilion Clique enter the battlefield effects would be negated and it is "just" basically a 3cmc 3/1 flying. Still good, but....

[fallenphoenix]

Torpor Orb certainly is a reason to not run it, though you still could. You could also replace Orb with Trickbind, Stifle 5-6 can be pretty devastating for some people's manabases and also has more synergy with Delver. Plus there are some other things you'd rather Stifle, where Orb is just useless (Deed, KotR, Pridemage, Mother...)

4 Delver
3 Stalker
4 Nought
2 Clique

seems like it could certainly kill people out of nowhere with a nought or surprise with death from the skies.

[wert]

I don't think it is the direction the OP is going for. Looking at his list, he has taken pains to make sure his mana curve is very low. Almost everything is 1cmc, with the exception of Torpor Orb and Tombstalker at "2"cmc. Futhermore, he stressed the use of Snuff Out instead of other usable but more expenisve 1-2 cmc removal.

I supposed he wanted to have mana available at all times, esp the first couple of turns to run disruption or counter or to dig for them. Personally, I like Torpor Orb more than Trickblind. It is a permanent so that you can be ready to cast Nought whenever you draw it. It is more secure and ready. It frees up the Stifles to be used on the opponent. Trickbind cost a bit more to cast and primarily just an more expenisve stifle. Torpor Orb has a double function as a Nought-enabler and to disrupt the opponent's creatures(SFM) with enter the battlefield abilities.

So, it doesn't make sense to include other enter the battlefield creatures yourself. Clique is flash so it still could fit when cast at eot but usually you want to cast clique at the opponent's draw phrase for maximum effect.

[Qweerios]

I think that the main reason to splash Red with a Delver/Clique/Stalker list is for the potential sideboard Firespout.

[Hof]

I like the deck in OP a lot. It looks awesome.

I suggest maindeck Spell Pierce instead of Spell Snare since, as you say, countering Goyf or ground creatures in general isn't that relevant, and Pierce can protect your own threats better than Snare.

[ultra_a]

I would never doubt that Clique is a great creature on its own. But not in this deck
On the draw snare can stop your opponents library/confidant/hymn, without orb in play it stops snapcasters from reusing StPs. Our testing shows that snare is somehow better, may be just a feeling :)

and about Firespout. Against RUG and Elves you have Perish - dont try to kill them - kill them!
Against merfolk firespout will face cursecatcher/daze, so with only 18 lands in the deck you can not pay. Against UW, Maverick etc Massacre is WAY better. And again - it is free(!) and protection doesnt help against -/-

As Wert said, we made some sacrifices in pursuit of functionality, because you can do huge amount of things with tiny amount of mana. Mana is the main source of advantage, and free removal spells allow to use it all. Also, curve is very low and almost every starter is good.

[Hof]

On the draw snare can stop your opponents library/confidant/hymn, without orb in play it stops snapcasters from reusing StPs. Our testing shows that snare is somehow better, may be just a feeling :)
Spell Pierce can stop Library or Hymn just as well on the draw, and it can counter StPs - both with and without snapcasters involved.
As you can probably tell, I am a great Spell Pierce fan :)

[catmint]

My feedback ultra_a:

I encourage you to update your primer and to focus more on the idea why you think your deck is a good choice, instead of making unqualified, simplified and also simply wrong statements about specific cards from RUG, BUG & TA. As you said we surely do not want a discussion about these decks (especially from your intial post, there is no point of a discussion), so why bother putting this arguments there in the first place? I think if you want to draw more attention to your deck idea it is a good idea to make a more "professional" statement.

Concerning the deck:
I like torpor orp and was also thinking about a shell to abuse it.
Playing it do you think hunted horror might make sense?

Not going for a third color has advantages, however Red feels very good. Going to the dome is good for such an aggressive deck. Having a stronger gamplan without relying on dreadnought to survive seems very important!

Speaking of it, for this gamplan I would like to play some more aggressive creatures.

I'll definitely give it a thought and will run some tests with this idea...

One more point:
you missed the biggest disadvantage of dreadnought: you 2 for 1 yourself.
I thought after MM banning, the Dreadnought will be the replacement for NO RUG, beeing a potentially faster 2 for 1 big creature combo. However the missing protection seems to be a very deciding factor.

[ultra_a]

To start with, if you want to encourage smb stop being rude, its not the feature of the "pro". You know nothing about my qualification to make any statements about it.
Secondly, I cant tell you about strong sides of the deck, not making a comparison between this and other decks.
Then, you blame me for something "unprofessional", but then suggest a hunted horror. Cmon, really? 3 mana with stifle for 7/7 that cant race Geist or Knight? Have you ever played a deck with 14 lands and 4 wasteland? Tell me please, how often would you have BBU on 3rd turn?
What side of agression could you improve, adding red color? Red found his origin in Canadian because of it great utility to win Goyf vs. Goyf wars, killing manadorks, tapping big creatures to buy another attack. Multiplying it to the possibility of dealing damage straight to you opponent and other bounce spells, red is the best color for the deck, Dave Caplan wrote about that.
Nothing from the above is about this deck, so i wouldnt advice smb to make manabase much more vulnerable for the pursuit of adding 3rd color, which might be good on paper.
And the last one. I've alrdy said, that Nought costs 2 cards.

[Anusien]

In Standard, Torpor Orb was way too ineffective against Squadron Hawk and Stoneforge Mystic. Why is it suddenly amazing for you against SFM now?

[dsck]

In Standard, Torpor Orb was way too ineffective against Squadron Hawk and Stoneforge Mystic. Why is it suddenly amazing for you against SFM now?

Because 1 mana 12/12 trample? The effect against sfm/snapcaster is just extra.

[Greenpoe]

Vision Charm is an option in the Topor Orb slot. Dunno how useful it is outside of Dreadnought, though. Getting rid of a bad Brainstorm stack, casting it after they put Top on top of their library, or messing up an Enlightened Tutor target, I suppose, but that's about it I think. Probably not as good as the Orb.

[Hanni]

Vision Charm also feeds Stalker and protects a resolved Nought from removal. I used to run that back in my old Dreadstalker deck.

[GGoober]

This deck feels like Dreadstalker, replacing Charms with Torpor Orbs and a little more removal. Personally having played Dreadstalker for quite a while, I opt for Spell Pierce over Spell Snare any day. If you are going on the Nought-plan, you don't care about SFM/Goyfs etc, but care much more about removal. Spell Piercing removal against your turn 1 Delver can also ride your way to victory. What is the main reason for playing Inquisition over Thoughtseize? My list plays 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Snuff Outs MD and I know sometimes I can easily take 10 damage over the course of the game from fetch/FoW/Seize/Snuff outs but I think having the ability to snab FoW/Jace and an opposing Goyf/Delver that can race you while you assemble your win plan is more crucial than the 2 life-loss from Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize/Pierce also handle Jace which Inquisition/Snare does not, and Jace is the worst card you can face off with this deck (lol bouncing Tombstalker and Dreadnought :P) but I'm sure he picked Inquisition/Snare as a meta choice.

The issues I had with Dreadstalker was really the 2-card combo of Stiflenought. In real life, playing with 9 cantrips and 8 Stifle (4 Vision Charm) was still not enough to push the strategy consistently. Torpor Orb is nice, but there are some things that Orb can't do that Charm does for the deck (feeding Tombstalker but most importantly protecting a resolved Dreadnought).

With Dreadstalker I go off on Dreadnoughts most frequently on turn 3, giving me a free mana to either Brainstorm into FoW, or Spell Pierce or Vision Charm against removal. One of Dreadstalker's main strength is that if you're not playing Hymns, all your spells are immune to Spell Snare outside of Daze which is sexy as hell. Dreadstalker (and this deck is also great because all your attackers are basically going to connect and kill your opponents unless he is playing Delver/Tombstalkers himself or the random Scryb Ranger that can destroy you with a SoLS lol). I would like to test the OP list though. The other version of a UB deck I played was with 3 Torbs, 4 Noughts, 3 Hunted Horrow, 4 Bobs and 4 Delvers but it was pretty bad :/

[Tombstalker]

Really like the list you posted ultra_a. I played stiflenought for awhile and I agree with most of your assessment regarding the decks gameplan. The biggest problem I see is against decks like maverick that pack pridemage + GSZ, PtE, StP. Admittedly I wasnt smart enough to lower my curve quite as much as yours and I didnt have delver or massacre but I ended up packing stiflenought away because I was facing decks with 16+ answers post board. Maverick is house right now and RUG has the ability to run a ton of hate for this deck (already does too) in the form of ancient grudge and REB
So I guess my question is, when you side out nought and torpor orb are those 5 wrath effects (2 vs RUG) what usually get you there?

[whosyourdaddy]

Hi
nice to see the idea of UBtempo being pushed forward finally. I've been trying to make similar lists work for over a year now and always lacked beater no#2(just until delver got printed). In Dreadnought-less builds i run 2/3 mainboard ratchet bombs( I like it more than EE) since you can blast it @1, 2, or 3 most of the time and both Tombstalker and Incetile Aberration are immune. It won me couple of games just killing vials, mana dorks, random 1- and 2-mana creatures and last, but not least Jittes(and sometimes even SoXaY). A nice catch-all generally speaking. Yet, it was probably the most often sided-out card. Any thoughts?

[Moonstomper]

This deck got top8 on a scg open the 5th of february. It splashes red for sideboard red elemental blast and enginered explosives but else it could be considered UB tempo. It's much slower than the one posted in OP and doesn't rely on mana disruption.

Here it is:
1 Swamp
3 Island
2 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Dark Confidant

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Go for the Throat
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict

Sideboard
2 Counterspell
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Extirpate
2 Perish
2 Red Elemental Blast

I'm planning on trying it out tomorrow at a small legacy tournament and wondered what you think about the list.

[dsck]

This deck got top8 on a scg open the 5th of february. It splashes red for sideboard red elemental blast and enginered explosives but else it could be considered UB tempo. It's much slower than the one posted in OP and doesn't rely on mana disruption.

Here it is:
1 Swamp
3 Island
2 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Dark Confidant

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Go for the Throat
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict

Sideboard
2 Counterspell
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Extirpate
2 Perish
2 Red Elemental Blast

I'm planning on trying it out tomorrow at a small legacy tournament and wondered what you think about the list.

Its the exact opposite of the first post list. You have 13 targets for spell snare and your curve goes above 2.

[Moonstomper]

Its the exact opposite of the first post list. You have 13 targets for spell snare and your curve goes above 2.

Sure. I would still say it qualifies as UB Tempo though and didn't want to start a new thread.

[Ajsmirnov]

No, its not the same deck. And its not tempo. It has 23 lands, most creatures are 2/1 with no evasion, no shroud etc. And its best kill condition is Jace.
Maybe its UBr advantage control, i dont know...

[Kich867]

Sure. I would still say it qualifies as UB Tempo though and didn't want to start a new thread.

It's very much not tempo.

Obvious tempo inclusions: Stifle, wasteland, daze, force of will.

The lack of stifles, the low count of wastelands, and mishra's factory should probably give away that the deck isn't actually tempo.

If you win with Jace the Mind Sculptor, that's a pretty obvious one too.

Tempo decks win quickly by tilting the opponent off balance by attacking the mana directly and then beating down fast. Low mana curves are a plus. I feel by looking at it it should be clear it's UB control, it has Clique, Jace, factories, lots of creature kill, no hymn to tourach, etc. It's no biggie on it not being tempo, if you want I probably would either find a UB control list to post it on or make one yourself for it and start the discussion there.

[ultra_a]

Sry for my absense, i m sick and turned on comp 1st time in 3 or 4 days ;p

About Ratchet Bomb:
It is really necessary, if you expect fast beatdowns, like zoo or merfolks - lots of them.
But its arguable, EE or this, because EE gives you a chance to sweep the turn it comes into play.
Against other decks massacre / perish / virtue's ruin are better still

About Maverick:
Every person around me won 6+ out of 10 preboard against maverick. You can ignore the biggest part of their deck, you should care about stp and zenith most. According to my practice, spells, that cost 3 or more, are really hard to resolve against any kind of tempo, so dont be so worried about qasali, also you can always stifle it.
After boards it seems like nothing changes a lot, because you eventually bring out dreadnoughts and bring in sweepers. Against deck without brainstorm 6 swords aren't so scary

About another UB here:
People alrdy said, that it isnt even quite similar to the deck in 1st post. Some kind of UBx walker control is playable, but i'm ( as you can quess) not the fan of it.

[capitacom]

How would disrupt be instead of spell pierce / spell snare? It always cantrips but can be an enormous blowout by countering something when they're tapped out. This deck doesn't really care about most non-instant/sorcery spells and the cantrip is quite powerful.

BTW, I love this deck and massacre is so good. I went up to 4 and haven't looked back since.

[lordofthepit]

If I'm playing in a metagame featuring some of the normal green-based aggro decks, but also some Enchantress decks, would Dystopia work as a hate card instead of Perish/Virtue's Ruin/Massacre? Or would that be too slow against green aggro?

[motormaster]

I played this deck at GP Indy to a dismal finish, which I attribute more to my sub-par playskill and lack-of-practice, rather than the deck's quality/power-level.

For what it's worth, I gave it another go this weekend at a GP Nashville Win-a-Box, and ultimately split with a Maverick player.

I demolished him very easily after the split, though.

From my experience at the GP, Maverick is the match you most want to see with this deck. It's an almost effortless victory, and post-board seemed to be relaxing as an afternoon on the beach with a pretty girl. Dropping the Dreadnoughts, Torpor Orbs and Forces to bring in Reanimate, Massacre, Perish, and Spell Pierce does the trick for me. It's worth noting that an Umezawa's Jitte which slipped through was the only thing that gave me trouble.

Merfolk seemed like the absolute worst matchup I played; however, I also lost one to a BW Tokens list (featuring Lingering Souls, Cabal Therapy and Liliana) that appeared to be a nightmare matchup.

-----

Otherwise:

* Jace, The Mind Sculptor seemed to be very problematic, and Batterskull felt like a threat.

* Thus far I've lost 2 matches vs Sneak/Show (their nut-draws w/ double-protection are tough to beat, I also dropped a match vs. sideboarded Jaces).

* I'm 50% against UW Stoneblade (the Stoneblade losses felt like they were due to my lack-of-skill, fwiw).

* Ultimately, I think Swapping 2+ IOK for Thoughtseize could improve both the Sneak/Show and Stoneblade and matchups significantly.

* Jace Beleren might be worth considering for the SB, given his ability to effectively Vindicate JTMS. Pithing Needle could be a better answer, however, as it can shut down the extremely scary (in my experience) Aether Vial, and blank Fetchlands.

* Either Hurky's Recall or Steel Sabotage should be added to the SB, as Ensnaring Bridge is basically the worst thing ever.

-----
Other decks I beat:

...Affinity and UR Delver (12/12 wins the race)

...UW Random Good Stuff (I just kept hands with a nice mix of lands and spells)

...Reanimator (just Extract or Reanimate their Fattie; feels like a pretty one-sided match)
-----

I'm going to stick with this deck for a while to learn its nuances, and it's definitely on my shortlist for GP Atlanta.

...That's all I can think of at the moment, but I'd be glad to answer any questions.

[wert]

I am a fan of this deck too. It has great tempo and flows well.

It has a glaring problem that I can't solve even post board. A resolved Blood Moon and Choke kill this deck, there is almost nothing to do about them except for bounce and you don't have the U. Maybe some tweaking of the landbase.

[motormaster]

Force of Will, Daze, and Inquisition make up a reasonable line of defense against Blood Moon and Choke though, right?

I agree that either of those is pretty bad on resolution.

[Ajsmirnov]

motormaster

try bringing Surgicals against Stoneblade. Discard + Surgical their StP is huge. Also you can Surgical Lingering Souls.

From here Maverick is good but not that easy, and Stoneblade is a walk in the park. Maybe we play this deck differently. Ever Stifled Butterskull's Living Weapon trigger? I play 4 IOK main + 1 Thoughtseize sb as a discard spell N5 btw. 0 Spell Snares and 2+1 Spell Pierces.

Sure it is possible to play Needles in SB. Don't think Jace Beleren will be good. And Needle also helps against Vial.

My biggest problem by now is an early resolved Dark Confidant, especially on the draw. As we have zero remouval for black creatures and its card advantage is a problem, you know.

[Hopo]

What a nice looking list!

After playing and messing around with several iterations of different dreadnought list, this seems to be lots of things right and it's easy to see the reasoning behind the card choices. But what's with the cantrip configuration? Ponders and Preordains but no full sets of either.

[Moosedog]

Would people mind posting their most recent lists?

[Ajsmirnov]

I play the same list as in 1st post but with spell pierces instead of spell snares. Sideboard differs.

[motormaster]

Would people mind posting their most recent lists?

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
3 Snuff Out
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Torpor Orb

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Massacre
2 Perish
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Reanimate
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ghastly Demise

[motormaster]

...But what's with the cantrip configuration? Ponders and Preordains but no full sets of either.

Surgical Extraction risk-management, I guess. I've switched to 4x Ponders, but YMMV.

[motormaster]

motormaster
My biggest problem by now is an early resolved Dark Confidant, especially on the draw. As we have zero remouval for black creatures and its card advantage is a problem, you know.

Do you think Dismember or Tragic Slip are good solutions?

[Ajsmirnov]

No, maybe Darkblast...

[Hof]

About Massacre. I wonder if the conditional nature of the alternative cost (opponent must have Plains) could ever be a problem, if the surprise value of this card drops. It seems relatively easy for Maverick to avoid fetching Plains or Savannah, since they have many other white sources, including (GSZ for) Noble Hierarch. Any thoughts on that?

I am also worried about the Canadian Threshold matchup. Torpor Orb does nothing against their creatures, and it is standard for this deck to have 2 Ancient Grudge in the sideboard, and that just seems like a silver bullit against the Dreadnoughts. For this reason alone I would have 2 Counterbalance in the SB, but is that even enough?

[motormaster]

About Massacre. I wonder if the conditional nature of the alternative cost (opponent must have Plains) could ever be a problem, if the surprise value of this card drops. It seems relatively easy for Maverick to avoid fetching Plains or Savannah, since they have many other white sources, including (GSZ for) Noble Hierarch. Any thoughts on that?

I am also worried about the Canadian Threshold matchup. Torpor Orb does nothing against their creatures, and it is standard for this deck to have 2 Ancient Grudge in the sideboard, and that just seems like a silver bullit against the Dreadnoughts. For this reason alone I would have 2 Counterbalance in the SB, but is that even enough?

I agree that Massacre would lose a lot of value if they start playing around it, and I can't think of anything you could really do about that. I suppose you could skew your plan toward Perish/Virtue's Ruin/Explosives.

Regarding RUG and Ancient Grudge: just don't fight that fight. I take out all of the Artifacts to bring in Reanimate, Perish, and whatever else looks helpful. The virtual mulligan you create on their side when you do this can help make up for the loss of the 12/12.

I don't think counterbalance is very good against Ancient Grudge, as this deck - by design - has very few 2-mana spells.

[motormaster]

No, maybe Darkblast...

Oops, I forgot about that one.

Darkblast seems very good, as it synergizes well with the Tombstalkers, Cantrips, and Delver.

[motormaster]

About Massacre. I wonder if the conditional nature of the alternative cost (opponent must have Plains) could ever be a problem, if the surprise value of this card drops. It seems relatively easy for Maverick to avoid fetching Plains or Savannah, since they have many other white sources, including (GSZ for) Noble Hierarch. Any thoughts on that?

Maybe you could Wasteland their Fetchlands, hopefully tricking them into fetching a Plains or Savannah. That's kinda loose, but it's all I can think of right now.

[wcm8]

Dread of Night will kill Mothers, Thalia, Mindcensors, etc. unconditionally. It's also nice against Lingering Souls.

[Ajsmirnov]

Look who top-8'ed!
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7871&iddeck=57323

The deck has 20 lands and is splashed to green. I think it made it worse, but still 8th of 32 players is not bad.

wcm8 Dread of Night is a nice tech. I prefer Massacre because it kills manadorks.

[kingsey]

What about misdirection to protect the naught? I don't like spell snare as much as pierce in this deck. Dreadnaughts run over everything but stp can't be snared

[sdematt]

Snare is god when you don't have the combo already online. So when you're sitting there with your dick in your hand against a 5/6 Tarmogoyf, call me to send you some Spell Snares :tongue:

In all seriousness, however, Spell Snare is good at slowing them down until you combo. It also stops Snapcasters.

-Matt

[lordofthepit]

So when you're sitting there with your dick in your hand against a 5/6 Tarmogoyf, call me to send you some Spell Snares :tongue:

Matt, the fact that you want someone to call you when he has his dick in his hand is pretty suspect! :eek:

:tongue:

[kingsey]

Matt, the fact that you want someone to call you when he has his dick in his hand is pretty suspect! :eek:

:tongue:

:eek: that makes me nervous .....

Matt, u still splashing red?

I still dont think snare is that great, besides who plays goyf anymore?:laugh:

I'm still torn between bob vs tombstalker.

[Vedalken]

Has anyone tried phantasmal image in the deck?
it copies goyfs and we have lots of fetch and waste so it copies knights nicely. those flying tombstalker are nasty. if we want early advantage casting it on a early flipped delver can be strong.
If u have the stifle for it. why not a second dreadnought.

I think the card would simply fit nicely.
The only disadvantage is that it runs directly into spell snare. But honestly, you should be able to play around it. Im saying maybe a 1 of or 2 of.

pierce beets snare all day.

[Said-In-Contest]

I'm really interested in the fight between Pierce and Snare.
Regarding Snare, I agree that it counters opponent's Goyfs, so you can handle them, but...can Canadian play a turn 2 goyf, tapping him out against us? I don't know that...but maybe goyf is not that big problem at all....I mean, with 4 discard spells, in case of need, I get rid of a Goyf and let delver or mongoose resolves...we also have 3 snuff out to get rid of goyfs...

So maybe a 3x of Spell Pierce maindeck could make life easyer, having more spell for proteting our Crayfish XD

My question, in the end, is: the targets of spell snare are some creatures/spells that, if resolved, could create us great problems? Or maybe is better to play Spell Pierce because a StP on dreadnought is even worse than a resolved tarmogoyf?!
Let me know about that because I'm very curious about of the opinions of both sides: thoose who likes pierce, and thoose ho vote for Snare!

Thanks to anyone!!

[Ajsmirnov]

I tested both hardly and left Spell Pierces. Long story short, deck is not really worried about tarmo or mystic, and countering remouval is cool.

[baghdadbob]

Yes spell snare seems good for "slowing down" the opponent. I.m.o. I would rather have dispel any day. I think once people realize just how good that card is it will see a lot more legacy play. Particularly in decks like this that wanna drop a fatty and pray to god it's not going to get instant speed removed. Especially when you consider your big guys are only going to be around for 4 turns max. I'm also not 100 percent sold on delver in this deck, but that could just be me. Don't get me wrong it applies a stable amount of pressure, i.e. a lightning bolt to the face almost every turn, but it seems those 4 spots could be something else more effective. I'm not sure what yet.

[Hopo]

I'm also not 100 percent sold on delver in this deck, but that could just be me. Don't get me wrong it applies a stable amount of pressure, i.e. a lightning bolt to the face almost every turn, but it seems those 4 spots could be something else more effective. I'm not sure what yet.

IMO delver is just what stiflenought decks needed: another really powerful, cheap and fast blue threath to compensate the fragility of dreadnought. Dreadnought is huge and cheap, but you need other cards to get it in play. There's no way around that. Also, it suffers from being surprisingly vulnerable to many kinds of removal and is pretty impotent against stuff like Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip. That was the reasoning that led to dreadstill playing counterbalance along nought. Delver just effectively bashes or chump blocks while you are assembling a dreadnought.

The best thing about delver is that it demands an immediate answer or it will kill them. And if they get rid of it, you can drop a dreadnought to finish the game. In my opinion the biggest threats the format can offer are delver, dreadnought and Knight of the Reliquary and I'm happy to play two of those in the same deck.

[Said-In-Contest]

So you seem pretty sure that Spell Pierce is better than Spell Snare.
Thanks for that!
But someone has just said "Dispel is even better", and let me say that I think he may be right!!
Why would we run Spell Pierce over Snare?! Because we want to counter removals!
And isn't dispel better than pierce in countering removal?! I guess yeah...maverick can use plowshares on the second turn with 2 mana open (Noble Hierarch on the first turn) the 99% of the time...so maybe dispel maindeck could make the cut!

On the other hand spell pierce gets rid of GSZ for Qasaly (it's a pain in the ass) or even a 3rd/4th turn Jace vs other deck! Jace is another annoying card if we want to go straight with the dreadnought plan...

So new question: Spell Pierce (more versatile, but not so great on countering removal), or Dispel (the best hard counter vs removal, but pretty shitty for all the rest??!!)

Anyway, if we will run pierce/dispel over snare maindeck...well....do we cut snare at all??!! I mean, can we put them 3x in the sideboard, taking Pierces actual place, to side them in when we side out the dreadnought plan?
For example, vs Canadian, we can cut dreadnought, and board in snares (for their goyfs) and reanimate (Guess where?! On their goyfs XD)
It may be an idiot sentence, but it also may be a great sideboard plane, changing complitely the approach to the game and also changing the counters...
In this way the opponent will really have good chances to miss his side ins/side outs, giving us an easier win!

What do you think about that?!

[Tombstalker]

Dispel is too narrow to see play except from the board. Stoneblade and maverick make snare just as viable as pierce, personally I would run both.

[Nefarsus]

Wow I was surprised to find this deck. I built this deck a while back trying to make something new. Here is my build:


4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Snapcaster Mage (should be clique, don't have)

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Go for the Throat
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish

This deck is a work in progress. Only had the opportunity to play a handful of games with my test partner. Dreadnought seems awesome, definitely want to try it out. Dispel and Snuff out seem worthy of testing as well. Any input on my build? Thanks

[Said-In-Contest]

Wow I was surprised to find this deck. I built this deck a while back trying to make something new. Here is my build:


4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Snapcaster Mage (should be clique, don't have)

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Go for the Throat
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish

This deck is a work in progress. Only had the opportunity to play a handful of games with my test partner. Dreadnought seems awesome, definitely want to try it out. Dispel and Snuff out seem worthy of testing as well. Any input on my build? Thanks

Your deck doesn't even run dreadnought so I don't think this is the "right topic"....
Anyway just a thing I've noted: you run 17 lands....and 4 jace...well, how can you get 4 lands on the field?! With this kind of deck it' s strange to have 3 lands in play, you usually will have 2 lands, not more...and how can you pretend to cast jace?! Even with 4 lands you will play it under an opponent daze, and with just a force of will in the best case to protect it...
I think you should cut something if you want the jace plan and run at least 20-21 lands...it would be better to reach 22-23....but it's a different deck I think...because we cut green because dreadnought it's better than goyf, but if you don't play dread, well you surely need green for beats!

Back to my previous post: so what about the fight Spell Snare vs Spell Pierce vs Dispel and the following sideboard changes??!!! No one has nothing to say about it?!

[rmihael]

Back to my previous post: so what about the fight Spell Snare vs Spell Pierce vs Dispel and the following sideboard changes??!!! No one has nothing to say about it?!I think that Dispel is more of sideboard material. You bring it in vs. decks with StP and PtE replacing mainboard Spell Pierces. Against combo decks it's just additional piece of disruption to bring in post-board.
As pre-board card Spell Pierce has been better for me. Countering Jaces, SDTs or random equipment is all good. Games 2 and 3 opponents usually makes more focus at disrupting our plan and Dispel works better as opposition for it.

[Said-In-Contest]

I think that Dispel is more of sideboard material. You bring it in vs. decks with StP and PtE replacing mainboard Spell Pierces. Against combo decks it's just additional piece of disruption to bring in post-board.
As pre-board card Spell Pierce has been better for me. Countering Jaces, SDTs or random equipment is all good. Games 2 and 3 opponents usually makes more focus at disrupting our plan and Dispel works better as opposition for it.

My only doubt is that maybe bringing in dispel to protect Dreadnought is not the best thing to do...in the primer, tha author says that you don't have to fight a battle that you'll probably lose.
So maybe in those cases it would be better to side out dreadnoughts and torpor orbs to change plan.
I usually find usefull to get out those 6 cards for +3 Spell Snare +3 Reanimate. I also have the 4th Spell Pierce to side in for force of will / Daze / Stifle if we are on the draw and depending on the match.

So I think that Dispel is an option only for maindeck. If we prefer Spell Pierce on Dispel (and actualy I'm doing so) than Dispel won't get any place on board.

I don't like the idea of splitting pierces and snares in the maindeck. We have 2/3 slots for them, and I think it's better to make a choice and go for it. The splitting is something, IMHO, that tryes to satisfy you and solve some doubts, but in the end it does nothing...and you gonna have in hand always the "wrong side of the split".

PS What a pitty....Dispel was so cool...StP: no, I got Dispel. Opponent "What the f**k??!!" LOL....

[Ajsmirnov]

Agree. The only thing I miss maindeck is Darkblast. Need to kill Thalia or 1 of 2 spirit tokens blocking my Delver. And if we board out Noughts and they bring disenchants that do nothing - its cool.

[Said-In-Contest]

Agree. The only thing I miss maindeck is Darkblast. Need to kill Thalia or 1 of 2 spirit tokens blocking my Delver. And if we board out Noughts and they bring disenchants that do nothing - its cool.

I complitely agree with you. Darkblast is the only card I really really miss in the maindeck. It's so versatile than I've tryed hard to make room for it! But unfortunately the 3x of Snuff Out cannot be touched....a topdecked Snuff Out can change the game....not darkbast...or maybe even darkblast, but also Snuff Out in that case would have done the same thing...

The most "sad" thing is that having a sideboard with 3 massacre and 2 perish darkblast won't get any place even in the board...so in G1 we have to handle the game with what we have, knowing that the board plan will fix everithing for us!

[Ajsmirnov]

No, not Snuff out obviously. Maybe 1 Inquisition(but ist a pain to loose it) or 8th fetch? If it works bad, maybe I try not playing Spell Pierce at all, to put 1 maindeck Darkblast and 1 another card. Definitely going to try. By now loosing 1 fetch looks best.

[Said-In-Contest]

No, not Snuff out obviously. Maybe 1 Inquisition(but ist a pain to loose it) or 8th fetch? If it works bad, maybe I try not playing Spell Pierce at all, to put 1 maindeck Darkblast and 1 another card. Definitely going to try. By now loosing 1 fetch looks best.

Mmmmmm....I guess 17 lands it not enough...I play canadian and in the last tournament, in 12 matches I've NEVER kept a hand with 7 cards because of nolander or one lander with wasteland.
I think 18 lands it's already the minimum...
If I had to cut a fetchland, I would cut it just to run the 2nd basic Island...nothing else. I don't wanna risk.
If you have a one lander you can keep it, but a stifle, a wasteland or something else can destroy the game in the first two turns...

The only option I see it's to cut a Inquisition of Kozilek (at this point, it's the only slot of the deck that can be touched).
BUT the disadvantages will be more than the advantages, IMHO.
You gain a great removal, with a good sinergy with Tombstalker, but you lose a fantastic discard spell vs everything!
In G1 we have the Dreadnought plan, and I would never cut a discard spell for a removal.
We need to protect our fragile big crayfish. So in the first turns I want to see the following things:

1) which deck my opponent is playing: it's not so easy to recognise it without seeing his hand. If he starts with polluted delta and passes it could on 5-6 different decks, knowing that he can be splitting the fetchalands. So a discard spell is usefull to know if the dreadnought plan is possible and usefull.

2) which cards he has in hand: so I can slow him down or discard his solutions to my dreadnought.

3) can I play as a control deck this game? This is the 3rd thing I want to know, because if I don't have the stifle-nought combo ready to go, I need to play in a different way. So a discard spell is not just a protection, but a great attack strategy, getting rid of the threats he can have in hand.

These are the reasons why I would never cut the 4x of Kozilek for a 1x of Darkblast.
Remember that it would be an 1x, so statistically you won't have it it the moment you wish to have it XD

Also, I'll never going to cut Pierces at all! A fast jace, liliana or deed can create us big problems! Those are the reasons I'm playing pierces maindeck and not snares, so I won't cut my protections against them for darkblast. It's too risky IMHO.

Anyway, why playing 4 daze 2 pierces instead of 3 daze 3 pierces?! I'm trying this configuration by now and I'm enjoying it!

I'm now thinking about Kozilek and thoughtseize, and a possible spit or not.
I start saying that I hate split decisions (I've already talked about that), but maybe tha chance of discarding cards like FoW, Jace and Batterskull could be a valid rason to play 2 kozilek and 2 seize.

Someone has tried the split?
Someone is just playing the kozileks and star hating the fact that jace and fow cannot be discarded? Even Batterskull can be a problem if we don't have dreadnough: stalker and delver cannot race it alone...........life it's not that easy it seems XD

[ultra_a]

we played a lot vs RUG and find that
1) perish seems like useless card
2) side in counterbalance does pretty much everything except coffee ( 4 blind counters in a row is more like a rule, not exception - i am not even talking about cantrips, that can rearrange everything as you need)
3) even with my sided grudge + 2 krosan grips ( i played RUG) they are definitely pretty much against counterbalance and not noughts. ( i should say, that my current RUG list doesnt run spell snares at all - thanks to UB, which showed, that pierce is better; but runs 1 top maindeck and 1 + 3 counterbalances in sb; idea isnt new, but it seems like a must, because counterbalance still win against everything that runs reasonable number of 1cc and 2cc). So it was some kind of intense tempo-counterbalance ( lolwhut) pseudo mirror that lead to minor advantage of UB because of untouchable stalkers. And grip/grudge is very situational starter and topdeck, we'd like opponent having that ballast in the deck.

So in conclusion - you can keep noughts after g1, especially on play. Furthermore, not much people know about weird blind ( or not) balance plan and dont play grips at all - all that make life easy. And about Perish - wellll, it isnt good and it doesnt work against RUG which seemd like the deck where it should. So darkblast is the one ( i wrote about it in 1st post also).

*also its very consistenly beating every other tier decks, so i'm proud with this UB-idea overall :cool:

Thx to Said-In-Context for really deep description of discard usage here.

3 daze + 3 pierce seems like the choice to play, but the main reason is the tempo drawback of the daze. In example, you play fetch, daze, then waste, and then you lose 1 land on the board, which in tests with RUG lead to disaster in couple of games.
More to say - spell pierce is definitely the better counter for cantrips, which is good ( i'm not even mentioning decks that play some uncastable 3-4cc).
In this case Daze is the only slot maindeck to cut for darkblast as i see it.

about splitting thoughtseize and inquisition. Strangely, but list in 1st topic isnt exactly the original one of mine. I always splitted, because 2 hits arent the big deal against everything except fast aggro ( burn, UR, Zoo). These 3 are very easily killed with any early nought and after sideboard, so i dont really care.
Your thought about Batterskull is true, it can be a threat.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I prefer 4 Daze as the card is better in multiples. I do run the 3rd Spell Pierce in place of a Ponder. I have mixed feeling for it, depending on how good is Spell Pierce in the matchup. Is going below 8 cantrips really a taboo for Tempo decks?

[Ajsmirnov]

Is going below 8 cantrips really a taboo for Tempo decks?

In this current list 8 cantrips help digging Nought or Stifle, to assemble your combo. I rly suggest not to cut cantrips.

[AlmostGrown]

Could you post an updated list, if the one in the 1st post is not up to date?

[ultra_a]

Done

[Said-In-Contest]

we played a lot vs RUG and find that
1) perish seems like useless card
2) side in counterbalance does pretty much everything except coffee ( 4 blind counters in a row is more like a rule, not exception - i am not even talking about cantrips, that can rearrange everything as you need)
3) even with my sided grudge + 2 krosan grips ( i played RUG) they are definitely pretty much against counterbalance and not noughts. ( i should say, that my current RUG list doesnt run spell snares at all - thanks to UB, which showed, that pierce is better; but runs 1 top maindeck and 1 + 3 counterbalances in sb; idea isnt new, but it seems like a must, because counterbalance still win against everything that runs reasonable number of 1cc and 2cc). So it was some kind of intense tempo-counterbalance ( lolwhut) pseudo mirror that lead to minor advantage of UB because of untouchable stalkers. And grip/grudge is very situational starter and topdeck, we'd like opponent having that ballast in the deck.

So in conclusion - you can keep noughts after g1, especially on play. Furthermore, not much people know about weird blind ( or not) balance plan and dont play grips at all - all that make life easy. And about Perish - wellll, it isnt good and it doesnt work against RUG which seemd like the deck where it should. So darkblast is the one ( i wrote about it in 1st post also).

*also its very consistenly beating every other tier decks, so i'm proud with this UB-idea overall :cool:

Thx to Said-In-Context for really deep description of discard usage here.

3 daze + 3 pierce seems like the choice to play, but the main reason is the tempo drawback of the daze. In example, you play fetch, daze, then waste, and then you lose 1 land on the board, which in tests with RUG lead to disaster in couple of games.
More to say - spell pierce is definitely the better counter for cantrips, which is good ( i'm not even mentioning decks that play some uncastable 3-4cc).
In this case Daze is the only slot maindeck to cut for darkblast as i see it.

about splitting thoughtseize and inquisition. Strangely, but list in 1st topic isnt exactly the original one of mine. I always splitted, because 2 hits arent the big deal against everything except fast aggro ( burn, UR, Zoo). These 3 are very easily killed with any early nought and after sideboard, so i dont really care.
Your thought about Batterskull is true, it can be a threat.

Thank you very much for your reply! It has been usefull to have an update from the topic creator.

About daze and pierces: I'm now playing 3 daze and 3 pierces (and not the mono darkblast because, even if I think it's a very VERY powerfull card in here, the 1x is too random IMHO, so I prefer I "more solid" counter plan).
My reason for the 3 daze 3 pierce is not just for the tempo disadvantage that daze create for us (I really liked when you pointed it out), but also because we will hardly use a daze or a counter for an opponent's CREATURE!! So pierce seems better for the aim of countering all "non creatures spells".

At this point I'll surely give a try to the counterbalance plan on board. Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't like it, but maybe is a matter of meta. I'll better stop being skeptical and test it.

I also quote for the splitting of Kozilek and thoughtseize: it's something we really need. The problems are all the burn decks (mono red, or UR) which are around by now, because without them I'll surely run 4 seizes.

My only doubt currently is the following:
to keep, or not to keep Dreadnought in vs Maverick?! This is the question!
There are pros and slops....some comments?!

[ultra_a]

What arthate? Grips? Well, its not common
Qasali is mostly searched by GSZ which is the easiest target to counter in the deck, also can be killed by darkblast/disfigure before casting dreadnought
Well, they do have 6 swords, but we have 4 fow and 4 discards. If we can install nought t2 on play with protection of any kind - fine, otherwise do not overplay dreadnought. You can easily sweep the board and leave discard + counters to the point. Tempo != all-in deck :)
Also, torpor orb is still a sick card :)
Any 3color version is pretty easy beaten even without massacre - bring in disfigures, reanimates, perishes and win the race against their attemps to assemble the manabase.

Some other thoughts about counterbalance.
You bring it in ONLY against the deck with reasonable amount of 1cc ( and only 1cc).
RUG, some kind of other tempo decks, combos, burn, UR, elves etc.
After sb you board out fows often and bring in 1cc instead, so u have 30+ 1cc. Plus every cantrip will put 1cc on topdeck for sure.
Overall, sensei tops are not crucial here. But more stable, if you like.

[wert]

This deck plays like a dream but sometimes things go south after the opponent figure it out and sideboarded accordingly. I have my doubts on the counterbalance package, sometimes it is not easy to find the mana to consistently activate top and the whole package takes 5-6 spaces.

Any insights on how to handle choke, blood moon?

[Said-In-Contest]

What arthate? Grips? Well, its not common
Qasali is mostly searched by GSZ which is the easiest target to counter in the deck, also can be killed by darkblast/disfigure before casting dreadnought
Well, they do have 6 swords, but we have 4 fow and 4 discards. If we can install nought t2 on play with protection of any kind - fine, otherwise do not overplay dreadnought. You can easily sweep the board and leave discard + counters to the point. Tempo != all-in deck :)
Also, torpor orb is still a sick card :)
Any 3color version is pretty easy beaten even without massacre - bring in disfigures, reanimates, perishes and win the race against their attemps to assemble the manabase.

Some other thoughts about counterbalance.
You bring it in ONLY against the deck with reasonable amount of 1cc ( and only 1cc).
RUG, some kind of other tempo decks, combos, burn, UR, elves etc.
After sb you board out fows often and bring in 1cc instead, so u have 30+ 1cc. Plus every cantrip will put 1cc on topdeck for sure.
Overall, sensei tops are not crucial here. But more stable, if you like.

I was just thinking that maybe it's not that easy to cast counterbalance vs RUG in the first turns...you must have UU so you must fetch on underground sea...and you expose yourself to opponent's Daze, Pierces, Force of Will and Pyroblast (eventually snare if the oppo is noob and didn't sided them out)...if it resolves, I agree, it's GG easy for us....but isn't it damnly hard to resolve?!

And against combo, would you play it on your turn 2 tapping yourself out?! I guess it's too risky so we must at least wait until turn 3 to cast counterbalance hoping to reach the 3rd colored mana on the third turn....not so easy at all IMHO.
But as I said, I'll test them! I cannot be so critic without testing them...
There are just my impressions, just to improve the discussion of the deck!!!

[ultra_a]

The point to keep FOWs is only to counter stalkers ( its not 2 for 1, its 2 for a gameloss). And then you board out either bolts or goyfs along with snares. Its kinda extreme and you must be 200% sure that you're doing right.
You should understand, that all that theory is only theory. If your opponent has pyro + pierce + daze + mana to cast it then i will let him counter our counterbalance ( 1 of 3). Its just an enchantment that might win or might not win the game.
And besides it's 1 to 1 exchange, what's wrong with it even it's countered?

On the other side, our FOW is pointless after SB - just 2 for 1 here, because we have enough removal and discard to deal with creatures. Counterbalance is much better protection ( place 1cc on top to protect beater) but the threat also. We increase our threat counter after sb, and RUG is stuck on basic plan, so we have the advantage here.

Polemics about fetching the right land is never worth it - it depends on everything and is very situational. But i can say, that fetching a sea is not a "mistake".

[Said-In-Contest]

This deck plays like a dream but sometimes things go south after the opponent figure it out and sideboarded accordingly. I have my doubts on the counterbalance package, sometimes it is not easy to find the mana to consistently activate top and the whole package takes 5-6 spaces.

Any insights on how to handle choke, blood moon?

Thy both have cc3....you run maindeck 3 dazes 3 pierces and 4 fow...how can they even dare to resolve a chocke???!!!!
Also, is moon a big problem for you?! The only thing you cannot cast with a resolved moon is stalker. We have nothing with casting cost 2 (just the stolker, more or less) so how can be a problem not to have UU or BB?! Just fetch on basics (you should do it anyway, because there are 774327411048 wasteland in current meta) and let your opponent cast idiot spells like that while you are running a delver/stalker/nought to victory!!!

I never had a resolved moon or chocke playing Canadian Threshold (and in that case it would be game more or less, but not always). In a UB deck with basics it's more marginal than ever I think!!!!!!

I hope to get the chance to test the deck with balances and tops in board in the weekend!! I'll let you know...
By now my sideboard is:

3 Massacre
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Snare (incredible but true: vs combo, canadian, reanimator are very powerfull)
3 Reanimate (I had a free slot, so I increase them to give strenght to our swich plan)
2 Perish (yeah, it's not a very great card, but I don't feel cutting them is wise)
1 Spell Pierce (the 4th one, because I always side it in. Too much time fows are out, and pierces are so good that the 4th one still has a place in the board)

I'm really satisfied of this sideboard. It's solid and way too far from been random.
But I need to say: I haven't tryed the Balance-top plan yet.

ULTR_A says:
Polemics about fetching the right land is never worth it - it depends on everything and is very situational. But i can say, that fetching a sea is not a "mistake".

Surely it won't be a mistake, but I was just a bit scared by canadian mana denial plan. Just that. But if you say that the Balance top plan is very good, wel man, I'll surely give a try because I think anyone has understood that you are a great player, and I MUST give you credit!!!

PS: The only problem is that I don't have the 3rd Reanimate foil FNM...this is a huge problem!! XD

[ultra_a]

I suggest to find the room for darkblasts/disfigures, because any maverick player that doesnt have brain damage will GSZ for Teeg, who can be very annoying with Thalias.
Personally i think, that your plan to "overhate" with snares+pierces isnt that consistent as counterbalance vs decks that i wrote before. You should definitely try it :)
But i'll be very pleased if you report about tournaments that you play with exact this variant :)

[Blitzbold]

Are those Stalkers set in stone? I hate them to be StP'd / bounced / whatever after I removed a good chunk of my graveyard. Setting up a second one can be done but isn't that easy sometimes. Additionally, a stalker in the starting seven means we're playing with six cards (equals a mulligan) and drawing a second stalker while still holding one is really bad.

We brewed a similar list but quickly replaced Tombstalker with Dark Confidants (x4), the 4th slot being one of the discard spells. This way the deck is much better prepared for playing the control game this way and also refills it's hand quite fast.

Our first approach also was to add red for Lightning Bolts, but we cut back to UB since then. Our removal currently consists of 3 Ghastly Demise, as those Snuff Outs obv. don't go that well with Confidants.

For sideboarding out a number of Dreadnoughts we put some Vendilion Cliques in the board to keep up a reasonable number of threads postboard. The board also contains additional removal in the form of Perish (2) and Darkblasts (2). Also, as we're paranoid about Dredge, Reanimator or Loam.style decks and our board contains a full playset of Leylines.

[HammafistRoob]

Also, it suffers from being surprisingly vulnerable to many kinds of removal and is pretty impotent against stuff like Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip. That was the reasoning that led to dreadstill playing counterbalance along nought.
I agree that delver belongs in this deck, but how did u come to this conclusion about why dreadstill ran counterbalance? Because i can tell u that its simply a wrong.

[Said-In-Contest]

Are those Stalkers set in stone? I hate them to be StP'd / bounced / whatever after I removed a good chunk of my graveyard. Setting up a second one can be done but isn't that easy sometimes. Additionally, a stalker in the starting seven means we're playing with six cards (equals a mulligan) and drawing a second stalker while still holding one is really bad.

We brewed a similar list but quickly replaced Tombstalker with Dark Confidants (x4), the 4th slot being one of the discard spells. This way the deck is much better prepared for playing the control game this way and also refills it's hand quite fast.

Our first approach also was to add red for Lightning Bolts, but we cut back to UB since then. Our removal currently consists of 3 Ghastly Demise, as those Snuff Outs obv. don't go that well with Confidants.

For sideboarding out a number of Dreadnoughts we put some Vendilion Cliques in the board to keep up a reasonable number of threads postboard. The board also contains additional removal in the form of Perish (2) and Darkblasts (2). Also, as we're paranoid about Dredge, Reanimator or Loam.style decks and our board contains a full playset of Leylines.

That's interesting...I had some problems with stalkers too....the first one is the double BB it requires, which oblidges us to fetch on underground and expose ourselves on wasteland....maybe it's just me, but I find really difficult to have more than 2 lands per game with the deck....

The conidant are very good in here, for sure, but the original plan was:

1) We don't wanna play spalls that run under opponent's snares (so he will have 3-4 dead cards)

2) We don't want to play creatures that can be easily be killed by a removal (bolt) except for delver (guess why??!! XD)

So confidant will surely be great, but:

1) He dies from snare and ALL legacy removals

2) Do we have the chance to tap out on turn 2 to play confidant?! Mmmmm...I don't think there is a single match up I will dare to do so

3) Is stalker so bad?! Ok it's not easy to resolve it, it can be removed (all creatures can, but stalker just with StP, so 5 lifes for us, or delver+bolt, so 2 for 1, still good I think)

But anyway, can you please post a list of your variant??!! It would be interesting to take a look at it and even test it!!!


My daily problem: Torpor Orb.
Damn it's great, but I need to tap me out to cast it, and it's something that I really REALLY don't like. I'm thinking about cutting them for something else. Options are:

1) Dispel, for more protection MD
2)Disfigure, a cheap removal for all we cannot manage with snuff outs (maybe 1 disfigure 1 darkbalst)
3) ghastly demise: great card, can be a strong removal, but we play stalkers...and still have the non-black in the text....
4) Trickbind, but I think that at that point orb would be better......

What you think about torpor orb??? Do you find it necessary? I don't have any problem on keeping it in the deck, but I just would like to know if someone else had found it a bit...Heavy and boring to cast!

PS Seeing that having multiple mana is a problem, is that an idiot idea to add one or two lands??!!

[ultra_a]

updated list runs darblast md alrdy - it doesnt only kill everyone in maverick/UR/elves/delvers etc, but helps with stalker too. you might say, that only 1 isnt much, but you have tons of deck search, so its much like 3 without any search at all.
you cant cut orb.
1) if you play only 4 stifles and 4 noughts you will have a problem to install it aand to crack manabase at the same time. its terrible
2) of you complain about sitting on 2 mana you cant even think about trickbind, because it requires 3 mana AND nought, whilst orb can be cast preventively and make any nought a great topdeck ( best one, actually).
3) trickbind is stifle for 2 and if you complain you cant tap to cast orb you would never ever sit on trickbind
4) orb turns off all mystics/snapcasters into removal/clique's into our beaters + ( and this is important) some random cards like Angel of Despair/Zealot etc in dredge, Eternal Witness ( target for gsz to recoup removal), ALL goblins in the world, Silvergill adepts etc. So it is like basic stifle/counterspell into flashbacking removal, which is awesome
5) without sideboard veeery few decks can deal with dreadnought installed, so it is far better to have a decent plan, than rely on probably useless removal. dont forget 4) in that case, because all decks with mystics/snaps are hugely popular.
6) tapping out for orb isnt that big deal. thats why all the deck is free if its possible. All sorcery-speed you can cast on t1, daze fow and snuff outs are free. Going forward, dont waste cantrips in case you have orb in hand - any found nought doesnt require stifle anymore and is the target you're looking for

[Hopo]

I agree that delver belongs in this deck, but how did u come to this conclusion about why dreadstill ran counterbalance? Because i can tell u that its simply a wrong.

That was my own reasoning combined with a lot of discussion in the dreadstill thread but maybe you had other intentions as well. I'm fine with that. It was easily the best reason for me to play such deck in the past. Then I fell in love with Kira and lots of countermagic.

[Blitzbold]

That's interesting...I had some problems with stalkers too....the first one is the double BB it requires, which oblidges us to fetch on underground and expose ourselves on wasteland....maybe it's just me, but I find really difficult to have more than 2 lands per game with the deck....

The conidant are very good in here, for sure, but the original plan was:

1) We don't wanna play spalls that run under opponent's snares (so he will have 3-4 dead cards)

2) We don't want to play creatures that can be easily be killed by a removal (bolt) except for delver (guess why??!! XD)

So confidant will surely be great, but:

1) He dies from snare and ALL legacy removals

2) Do we have the chance to tap out on turn 2 to play confidant?! Mmmmm...I don't think there is a single match up I will dare to do so

3) Is stalker so bad?! Ok it's not easy to resolve it, it can be removed (all creatures can, but stalker just with StP, so 5 lifes for us, or delver+bolt, so 2 for 1, still good I think)

Sure, arguments can be made for both of them. Double black for stalker is a point I forgot to mention.

Blanking opposing Snares is nice, but when going for the tempo plan early, there's still Torpor Orb for their Snares, as they are likely to keep their low-cost spells anyway. Assumed no Snare and Bolt / StP / random removal comes a turn late, Confidant already replaced himself.

I am still not sure wether he is a definite 4-of, as in he isn't exactly the card I always want to tap out for on turn 2. This in turn means that I don't need the highest possible probability of having him in my first 7-10 cards. Confidant as a 3-of might be reasonable as well, as drawing into him after your first wave of disruption is gone might be sufficient to refill your hand in time.


But anyway, can you please post a list of your variant??!! It would be interesting to take a look at it and even test it!!!

Sure, here you go:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
4 Daze (3 and +1 IoK?)
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce (2 and +1 IoK?)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder (+1?)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek (4 or split with Thoughtseize?)
3 Ghastly Demise

2 Torpor Orb

3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest (+1 Underground Sea or Tropical Island for SB Options?
4 Wasteland

SB (open / unknown meta)
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Counterbalance (could be Clique #3 + another Removal / Bounce)
1 Rushing River ("catch-all" answer; could be E. Truth if Dredge is often played)
2 Darkblast
2 Perish
2 Reanimate
4 Leyline of the Void

We also considered adding 1-2 Tropical Islands and some Nature's Claim to the board, but for now we are opting for a strong mana base instead.


My daily problem: Torpor Orb.
Damn it's great, but I need to tap me out to cast it, and it's something that I really REALLY don't like. I'm thinking about cutting them for something else.

snip

What you think about torpor orb??? Do you find it necessary? I don't have any problem on keeping it in the deck, but I just would like to know if someone else had found it a bit...Heavy and boring to cast!

Torpor Orb ist really strong in the current meta full of Snapcaster Mages and Stonforge Mystics. A lot of other nasty EtB effects are turned of as well. Also affects Sword of the Meek for example. ;-)



PS Seeing that having multiple mana is a problem, is that an idiot idea to add one or two lands??!!

We strongly considered 19 lands, especially because Confidant (as a 4-of) and Nought + Stifle both require to have 2 lands in play. Therefore playing 19 seems reasonable. As I consider myself very experienced with tempo decks (played Canadian and nearly no other deck for more than 3 years) I though I could get away with 18.

One reason for this was that I often want my Stifles to support an early tempo plan and not for dropping the 12/12 as early as possible. This goes as far as considering dropping one Dreadnought from the main, but this might prevent to drop him as early as possible if one wants to. A friend of mine still insists on an additional land for his list, choosing it instead of my 3rd Spell Pierce.

[Nefarsus]

Hello everyone. This past Tuesday, I tweaked my build and took it to a Legacy tournament. It was 4 rounds Swiss. I ended up going 3-1 placing for prizes. $5 entry, 3-1 gets $15 credit, 4-0 gets $40 credit. New store for me to attend so I want sure what to expect. I played the following:

3 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
2 Dispel
3 Force of Will
2 Snuff Out
2 Go for the Throat
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

3 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Island
3 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin

I originally only had one dreadnought bit managed to trade for a 2nd before the tourney. With all the Maverick winnings, I really felt like Virtue's Ruin would be a must play. Only own one at the moment, so I swapped a perish out for it.

Round 1 I'm paired against Zoo. I had to mull to 6 from a no land hand. I resolved a Delver, but failed to find any other threat and simply could not keep up with my opponents creatures. Worst match of the night, went 0-2.

Round 2 I got the bye, free win but I came out to play, was a bit disappointed. Looked around the room, High Tide, Astral Slide, Burn, Esper Blade, Tokens, Maverick are the decks I see in the room.

Round 3 -Burn. Game 1 I resolve an early Tombstalker, but he is on my ass with the burn spells. I get him to 1 life and i'm at 4, no counters in hand. He Flame Rifts us into a draw which I never expected and was slightly annoyed by. Side in Counterbalances, Surgicals, take out Wastelands, 2 Jace, A Thoughtseize, and A stalker and delver I think.

Game 2, I counter one of his burn spells, cast surgical on turn 3 or 4, he has 4 or 5 cards in the yard, I name something I can't remember what it was, but he had 2 more copies off that card in his hand, awesome play, was so happy. Finally resolve a Jace a turn later, followed by a Delver. Get have up to 13 counters and away goes his deck. I think I've done that one other time ever in a tournament, Jace is so sick.

Game 3 my hands is 2 fetches, stifle, dreadnought, force, ponder, daze. Turn 2 Dreadnought and that's all she wrote.

Round 4 I'm up against B/W tokens. It runs Leyline of the Meek, Intangible virtue, windbrisk Emrakul, scrying sheets, polymorph, proteus staff. He starts with Leyline and follows with intangible virtue. I get an early stalker followed by Jace. Bounce tokens with Jace and snuff out to get stalker into the red zone. SB in my 1 Virtues ruin, surgical, forget what I took out.

Game 2 he windbrisks and I waste it immediately, turns out Emrakul was hanging out under it. He had leyline and intangible off the bat. Plays lingering souls and another bw token maker. My snuff makes me cry. Cant keep up and he promptly rapes my life total.

Game 3 I have 2 stifles, top, 2 fetch, brainstorm, virtues ruin . He again had leyline turn 0. I dig like a million times to find my dreadnought don't find it until turn 5 or 6. I delved an early Tombstalker after removing a few tokens. He swords to plowshares my stalker. Thankfully I find my dreadnought the next turn. He had enough pumped up blockers that it would take 3 or 4 turns with the dreadnought to get lethal. Thank God, for the 2nd stifle, add he drops journey to nowhere down. Following turn I draw another, and on his turn he had yet another journey to nowhere! After using my virtues ruin, a go for the throat, and some epic timed stifles, I get lethal.

Really liking the feel of this deck. I managed to pick up 2 more dreadnoughts and a Trickbind. Not sure what to take out yet, but gonna do some editing this well. Definitely want to run 3 dreadnoughts. Virtues ruin is a ridiculous card in the current meta. I would like too run 2 perish 2 virtues for sure. Torpor Orb seems good, maybe test a one of. Dispel has been very good as well, definitely has a home in my 75.

I hope this report was useful or entertaining. Thanks for reading. Time for some sleep

[Said-In-Contest]

Sure, arguments can be made for both of them. Double black for stalker is a point I forgot to mention.

Blanking opposing Snares is nice, but when going for the tempo plan early, there's still Torpor Orb for their Snares, as they are likely to keep their low-cost spells anyway. Assumed no Snare and Bolt / StP / random removal comes a turn late, Confidant already replaced himself.

I am still not sure wether he is a definite 4-of, as in he isn't exactly the card I always want to tap out for on turn 2. This in turn means that I don't need the highest possible probability of having him in my first 7-10 cards. Confidant as a 3-of might be reasonable as well, as drawing into him after your first wave of disruption is gone might be sufficient to refill your hand in time.



Sure, here you go:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
4 Daze (3 and +1 IoK?)
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce (2 and +1 IoK?)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder (+1?)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek (4 or split with Thoughtseize?)
3 Ghastly Demise

2 Torpor Orb

3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest (+1 Underground Sea or Tropical Island for SB Options?
4 Wasteland

SB (open / unknown meta)
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Counterbalance (could be Clique #3 + another Removal / Bounce)
1 Rushing River ("catch-all" answer; could be E. Truth if Dredge is often played)
2 Darkblast
2 Perish
2 Reanimate
4 Leyline of the Void

We also considered adding 1-2 Tropical Islands and some Nature's Claim to the board, but for now we are opting for a strong mana base instead.



Torpor Orb ist really strong in the current meta full of Snapcaster Mages and Stonforge Mystics. A lot of other nasty EtB effects are turned of as well. Also affects Sword of the Meek for example. ;-)




We strongly considered 19 lands, especially because Confidant (as a 4-of) and Nought + Stifle both require to have 2 lands in play. Therefore playing 19 seems reasonable. As I consider myself very experienced with tempo decks (played Canadian and nearly no other deck for more than 3 years) I though I could get away with 18.

One reason for this was that I often want my Stifles to support an early tempo plan and not for dropping the 12/12 as early as possible. This goes as far as considering dropping one Dreadnought from the main, but this might prevent to drop him as early as possible if one wants to. A friend of mine still insists on an additional land for his list, choosing it instead of my 3rd Spell Pierce.

Great list!
I miss tombstalker, but confidant can really be very good if well supported...or in the worst case, it will get some removals.

I'll never splash this deck for green, because the beneficts are not so much, but it will be very stupid to add green and get a submerge on dreadnought XD
I don't think that, if we play confidant, the 19th land is needed.
More lands are necessary IMHO for the list that runs stalker, because of the double black. In that case, 1 swamp and 4 underground sea are not enough, because of wastelands.......

[bob2008]

Hello guys,

A great deck - makes lots of fun to play !!!

I think the idea of Kira deserves more consideration.

Against removal heavy decks we bring in CB and a few tops but maybe some Kiras could do the same job ...?

This SB-plan could make some additional space in the SB to strengthen the

"discard-reanimate-plan"...

Anyway, against what kind of decks do you usually bring in reanimate ?

best regards,

bob

[sdematt]

Ideally, you'd want Kira AND CounterTop. If you can get that up, they literally can't do anything. Good luck having 3 removal spells, and even then, it won't matter.

I've also up'd my land count to 20. This deck is super mana hungry as well as being a Stifle deck, so I couldn't run it off 18 lands. You're a deck trying to cast a creature, a spell and have mana up for counters on the same turn.

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
14

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Torpor Orb
27

4 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
20

SB (open / unknown meta)

3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Torpor Orb
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Dread of Night
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce

-Matt

[antesha]

hey people

do you guys think that Vision Charm besides protection and stalker food could help
that Massacre is not just used against w decks? I's it even worth considering?

ty

[AlmostGrown]

Ideally, you'd want Kira AND CounterTop. If you can get that up, they literally can't do anything. Good luck having 3 removal spells, and even then, it won't matter.

I've also up'd my land count to 20. This deck is super mana hungry as well as being a Stifle deck, so I couldn't run it off 18 lands. You're a deck trying to cast a creature, a spell and have mana up for counters on the same turn.

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
14

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Torpor Orb
27

4 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
20

SB (open / unknown meta)

3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Torpor Orb
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Dread of Night
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce

-Matt

How has that list been in testing?

[ultra_a]

Top tended to be the worst card in the deck, so it was cut for 2nd darkblast in main, also its spare slot in sb right now. May be 3 hydroblasts will be good

[bob2008]

Hello Sourcerers,

Last Saturday I played this UB-list and placed 3rd out of 66 players. There were 7 rounds of swiss without cut to top 8. My result was 5-0-2; 17 points. I won a Tropical Island for my efforts.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Snuff Out
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sensei's divining top
2 Torpor Orb

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

S.B.
3 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's divining top
1 Vendillion Clique
3 Submerge
3 Massacre
4 Surgical Extraction

I played against a GR-token deck (2-0), 2x Goblins (2-0, 2-1), ANT-Storm (2-0), Agro-Loam (2-0) then 2 ID against Dredge and Zoo in rounds 6 and 7 (after agreeing on the ID we played the games out -I won both of them; 2-1 against Dredge and 2-0 against Zoo)

In retro perspective I must say that the deck played very smooth and felt very strong. A (protected) Dreadnought is just so amazing…

I would like to share some thoughts about the most obvious change in my list – the inclusion of Kira, Great Glass Spinner. The two slots have been Spell Pierces before I made the change.

I think the inclusion of Kira was a good call. She saved my ass against the Agro-Loam player when he must realize that his single Maze couldn´t stop my Nought. In this situation a Spell Pierce would have done nothing.

The same against Goblins in round three. Here Kira kept a Lackey at bay for a few crucial turns while I searched for a Nought. Again, Spell Pierce would have been bad in this situation.

Kira showed up against the Dredge player as well and …OK maybe a Spell Pierce would have been better here.


So far I could not test against Maverick and Stoneblade. What are your experiences against them – Is Spell pierce better than Kira in this MU?

Best regards,
bob

And sorry, but English is not my first language…

[AlmostGrown]

Top tended to be the worst card in the deck, so it was cut for 2nd darkblast in main, also its spare slot in sb right now. May be 3 hydroblasts will be good

I could definitely see cutting top. its been pretty weak for me when i was spinning blanks/no shuffle effects.

[Eldamion]

@sdematt

How often has your Dark Confident killed you while testing?

The SDT should be a 3rd Inquisition of Kozilek?
What's your thougt about playing with Kira instead of Spell Pierce?
How good or better situational were the Spells Snares??

[kiblast]

I can't think of any stage of the game where you'd want a Sensei's divining Top instead of any cantrip. And probably any effort to go below 8 cantrips is just a mistake. 4 Brainstorm are mandatory, I'd add 4 Ponder and 1-2 Preordain as well. The thing is that you play counters and Stifle so you can control the (early) game, but you are not a control deck. You need your answers (Snuff Out, Darkblast, Discard, Stifle, or wathever you need) and/or Nought/ Stalker online as soon as possible. As early as turn 3-4 possibly. Top doesn't let you dig further, doesn't shuffle your deck and doesn't net you new cards. Think as for UB ant builds. This is almost a combo deck, or as someone said before in this thread, an ''all-in'' deck. There is no real reason to cut cantrips.

Also, Counterbalance post sb is not even an excuse to run tops.The curve of the deck is so much setted on 1-2 cc that running tops is useless, becuse anyway you are never going to counter cc3 or cc4, and for any other cc just use your cantrips ( that's why I'd run the entire 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 Cartel) wisely and save your Brainstorms.

Last thing: I can't fit the singleton DBlast in the maindeck, but this deck screams to have one as the synergy with Brainstorm or Ponder is really needed. I'm currently trying only 3 spot removals (3 Snuff Out) and I don't feel comfy in cutting one to accomodate a Dblast. But still I feel I should have one in the md.

Anyway. Lovely deck, I always love to see Dread being tested in new shells !

[Valarne]

Hello people. I like this deck a lot and have played it the last two legacy tuesdays at our local shop, going 5-1 and 4-1-1(id). My losses were TES and Death and Taxes.

First my list as of now, and then a few thoughts and questions.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle

3 Snuff Out
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Torpor Orb

19 Lands:
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Plague
2 Massacre
2 Thoughtseize
2 Clique

Q: I still don't know if I prefer Torpor Orb over Vision Charm (haven't had time to try out Vision Charm). What do you say?

I play 19 lands, because a) I don't like mana screw, and cantrips solve flood easily. b) because Creeping Tar Pit is awesome mid/lategame at landdrop nr 4. Not difficult to find by then, and it gives some reach. Might play a second, but its probably overkill.

I play a Clique over the fourth Tombstalker - its a pseudo-discard spell, and an additional beater. I like it, but I am not sure about the extra two in the board.

Q for SB: My generic plan if i feel like siding out Dreadnought plus Orb is + 2 Clique, +2 Thoughtseize and possibly +2 Extraction. Basically just UB Tempo. I think the Counterbalance plan seems a bit clumsy/overkill, but maybe I am wrong? On another note - I am not sure when I actually feel that I should side out Dreadnoughts, since I feel decently positoned against Snapcaster+STP (Esper) which should be one of the most removal-dense decks. I like the two Cliques as a kind of soft combo-hate, that can also take the place of Dreadnought as beaters 9+10 postboard. What are your sideboard ideas?

And lastly, I modelled my deck after the original list - which I think looks the best. Being streamlined is key, and stuff like Darkblast shouldn't be the plan - we are not control!

[Ajsmirnov]

Congrats with your results, Valarne!

Some points: you say we are not control, but play Creeping tar pit which is obv a control one. If you need land #19 - try 2nd basic Island. I also suggest Kira instead of Clique, as bob2008 did. It works great protecting Dreadnought from kill spells, Jace and Maze.
Do not drop Reanimates from SB. You kill them with their own Knight/Tarmo/Delver very often. Combined with remouval, Reanimate is strong(that's why Perish is better then Submerge here).

[Valarne]

Congrats with your results, Valarne!

Some points: you say we are not control, but play Creeping tar pit which is obv a control one. If you need land #19 - try 2nd basic Island. I also suggest Kira instead of Clique, as bob2008 did. It works great protecting Dreadnought from kill spells, Jace and Maze.
Do not drop Reanimates from SB. You kill them with their own Knight/Tarmo/Delver very often. Combined with remouval, Reanimate is strong(that's why Perish is better then Submerge here).

Hello AJ. Thanks :). Why do you think that Creeping Tar Pit is a control card? I actually think it is a great aggro-manland - 3/2 unblockable is a fine clock. Kira sounds interesting - I had almost forgotten that one. I will definitely try it out.

Reanimate + Perish is a plan against GW, sure - but especially Perish is to heavy I think. It makes their Thalia + Wastelandplan really good against our sweeper. Submerge + Massacre can deal with most things, and it fits nicely into the tempo/Dreadnought plan. Maybe it is too low-impact, and the Perish might be necessary, but my inclination is to err on the side of 0cost answers, and stay proactive as much as possible.

Either way, the Reanimates might be nice in the board...

[JDK]

Thanks for bumping this! I really like this list. :smile:

[Blitzbold]

After a lot of finetuning three people played the build I presented earlier in this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23239-UB-Tempo-%28-Winner-of-18.02.2012-russian-legacy-champ%29&p=629531&viewfull=1#post629531) at magiccardmarket.eu's 5th anniversary tournament. One of us placed Top 8 with the build, where he lost against the eventual winner in 3 tough games.

You can find the Top 8 decks here (https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/blog/5-y-mkm/). The deck runs very smooth and having basics usually trumps any tempomirror. The board as it is absolutely slaughters Maverick. No joke - when drawing as usual, the don't stand a chance. Darkblast is such a beast here, and Perish cleans up the survivors.

Temposhell + basics gives a huge edge against opposing tempodecks while the board covers Maverick nicely. Combo looks good on paper, but remains a tight matchup, as all of the cards against them requires mana. The only cards we are currently considering to change are the two Edicts in the board.

Feel free to ask any questions about the build and the sideboard strategy. As this versions varies quite a bit from the OP we are considering starting an own little primer, but as the deck origins from the OP we are still answereing here.

[Valarne]

@Blitzbold. Nice, thanks for the reply.

The biggest question I have is about Dark Confidant vs Tombstalker. Obviously this choice changes central dynamics, and it reflects a choice. My reasoning to choose Tombstalker has been, that I want to apply pressure, and have a reasonable amount of creatures to achieve this with. I was thinking that Confidant does a worse job than Tombstalker, but on the other hand, the sequence of turn 1 discard turn 2 Bob is always a power play.

I presume that you have made this choice consciously?

Second question: Have you considered the difference between going Massacre/Submerge in the board as opposed to Perish/Darkblast? What led to your choice?

Third: When do you board in the Reanimates? Against GW and Reanimator?

Thanks in advance
-Tue

[donnhart]

@Blitzbold. Nice, thanks for the reply.

The biggest question I have is about Dark Confidant vs Tombstalker. Obviously this choice changes central dynamics, and it reflects a choice. My reasoning to choose Tombstalker has been, that I want to apply pressure, and have a reasonable amount of creatures to achieve this with. I was thinking that Confidant does a worse job than Tombstalker, but on the other hand, the sequence of turn 1 discard turn 2 Bob is always a power play.

I presume that you have made this choice consciously?


I hope its ok when i´ll answer your questions quickly, maybe Blitz will giving you more detailed answers tomorrow.
We think Bob is a more dangerous creature for any opponent, because if he remains unanswered for a few turns, you´ll probably win the game. In the other case, he draws the removal before Dreadnought hits the board, and he needs no combat step to win the game.
Bob needs no setup, you can easily drop him turn 2 and hes good in multiples, where stalker won´t hit the board turn 2 ever + you don´t want to draw a second.



Second question: Have you considered the difference between going Massacre/Submerge in the board as opposed to Perish/Darkblast? What led to your choice?


We don´t want to play massacre because it will kill our Bobs and Delvers too, but won´t hit Thrun. So Perish + Darkblast was the way to go in the GW-mu (in which Darkblast really shines). Darkblast also hits your opponents Delver/Clique and works fine with Brainstorm/Ponder.
If you´re going to play Confidants, you should use Perish/Blast, if you want to stay more aggro with Stalker, Massacre + Submerge will do the job fine.



Third: When do you board in the Reanimates? Against GW and Reanimator?


Yes, and vs Canadian, too. If you manage to catch a Goyf/Mungoose with it, you´ll probably win the game ;)
You may also side them in against Dredge or Reanimator.



Thanks in advance
-Tue

You´re welcome :wink:

[AlmostGrown]

Wait, are you sure you mean Perish/Darkblast? Because the list I'm using (based off the OP) has Perish AND Massacre in it. Also - I've been testing a similar list, and have found that I absolutely cannot beat a resolved Ensnaring Bridge. Any thoughts on getting around it? I want to splash green but it makes the mana extremely terrible. My list, for reference:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
1 Darkblast
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
3 Snuff Out
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Torpor Orb
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Disfigure
2 Krosan Grip
3 Massacre
2 Perish
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

I have a big tourney coming up on 5/12 (about a week from now) and am probably going to go with the above list except -1 Tropical Island +1 Misty Rainforest main deck, and -2 Krosan Grip +2 Reanimate sideboard. Should I make any cuts for submerge or Spell Snare?

[Blitzbold]

Second question: Have you considered the difference between going Massacre/Submerge in the board as opposed to Perish/Darkblast? What led to your choice?


Donnhart already covered most of the important aspects. I'll add some reasons regarding this question for now. When going with Confidants you obv. want to lower the deck's curve as much as possible.

As much as we liked the tempoish Snuff Outs, loosing potentially 8 life to one of them would probably cost the game. Swapping them for Demise in our first iteration therefore was an easy choice. After realising the power of Darkblast against quite some decks and to create some space in the board we decided to move one of them from the board to th main.

The same reasoning as for Snuff Out goes for Massacre and Submerge. Loosing 4 by revealing them to Confident obv. doesn't cut it when you need them. Additionally, Darkblast is more flexible than Massacre which also won't do anything against Teeg. Finally, Perish is a definite answer to green creatures, whereas Submerge usually only offers a temporary solution (short of response to a shuffle effect). Perish therefore also goes very well with Reanimate. Don't get me wrong, Submerge is a great card, but it shines most when used in Canadian's board becaus UGR doesn't have hard removal against KotR and friends.

Note that our boarding plan depends on whether the opponent saw any of the Nought/Orb package before. The board as it is now allows to board out the whole package of 6 cards and replace them with even more removal, disruptive creatures and additional counters. Against Maverick I usually board up to 9 cards while leaving the tempo plan intact. In one game I let a 1st turn GSZ for 0 resolve on purpose only to waste his Savannah and Darkblast his Arbor. He didn't win that one...



Wait, are you sure you mean Perish/Darkblast? Because the list I'm using (based off the OP) has Perish AND Massacre in it. Also - I've been testing a similar list, and have found that I absolutely cannot beat a resolved Ensnaring Bridge. Any thoughts on getting around it? I want to splash green but it makes the mana extremely terrible.


The mana would work by adding one or two Tropicals. This would weaken the tempo mirror, though, as well as opening your threads to potential submerges from your opponent. We considered a splash as well, but omitted it for exact these reasons. Also, when adding green, I'd love to play Mongeese, a Loam or two in the board and so on. :D

Which decks are playing Ensnaring Bridges? Lands and maybe UBw Tezzeret ("A shot in the dark")? Lands usually folds to your combination of Leyline and counters postboard, but you've got quite some game preboard as well. UBw Tezzeret has a very fragile manabase and not that much disruption, so if you're in fear of a Bridge, save some countermagic. Their planeswalker (all of them) won't stand the onslaught of Insects, Noughts and possibly Bobs for long, so that their defensive abilities won't help that much.

[Valarne]

Great with this thread activity.

@Ensnaring Bridge and similar stuff: Yeah, if it resolves, its a problem, but this deck has a lot of interaction preventing that. All 3 and 4 drops are almost by definition covered by the maindeck I think. Edit: If you face it a lot, you could play bounce like Rushing River or Echoing Truth without having to splash. Counter it on the way down, or attack ftw.

It is off course best in the Confidant build to make changes like you did - and it also indicates a bit different pace of the game, where drawing cards with bob gives the deck a nice midgame and lategame potential (building on this is the sweepers). Yeah, I like it. Have you considered Virtue's Ruin, maybe 2/1 split with Perish? It deals with the most important creatures out of GW - though Perish wrecks their mana.

Anyway, its important not to rely to hard on sweepers against Thalia.dec - the onedrop-removal (or zerodrop) is really where most tight games are won.

My inclination is that you have too little removal in the main, since you have a slightly slower clock, than the Tombstalker build. You haven't been tempted to cut a Pierce for a fourth removal?

[Ajsmirnov]

AlmostGrown
you don't need to splash green against Ensnaring bridge etc, just use Rushing River or Echoing Truth, as mentioned above. Also the best way to fight it is to kill before they can cast it with Daze-protection. The 2nd best way is to discard it. If its Thopters deck and it is very popular in your meta, try Predict - great against Enlightened tutor.

I tested Virtue's ruin and considered it bad - I want to destroy manadorks, not mothers of runes.

p.s.: 3-1 at local tournament with Tombstalker-list. Lost to Burn(double Fireblast ftw). Never wanted Confidants here, the deck is tempo and needs good kill conditions, not card drawing or a late game plan. When I want a deck with late game plan I use BUG Control or a Blade Control, not this deck.

[ultra_a]

The main subject will be about bob ofc.
You make the deck worse in every way you can.
What is the point in drawing 2-3 cards ( first of all, bob is -1 card)?
If you want beater you should get nought+(!)stifle, delver isnt that great beater cast on turn 4.
You draw counters - well, good for you, but what for, protect bob? Funny thing, bob is drawing counters to protect itself, never attacks because it protects itself and losing life. Stupid? Definitely.
If you cast bob you cant denial mana that turn, cant stifle fetch that turn. In that scenario you cant stifle a fetch in any case, because you wait dreadnought.
So, bob is drawing potentionally dead counters, potentially dead dreadnoughts if you dont have stifle and dead stifles because opponent alrdy cracked his fetch.
Bob is killed by any forked bolt, chain, lavamancer, cant block and cant attack, nothing tempoish in that.
Besides that, ghastly demise costs one mana and does not(!) kill some threats like KotR or even stupid goyf, snuffout is way better.
Going on, deck is avoiding spell snares, that every other blue deck has ( RUG, UW etc). Now their useless cards come alive and deck is starting to lose to RUG and UW.
Bob makes matches against aggro even worse, i think i shouldnt explain that.

Now about tweaks.
We are not playing massacre anymore at all - nausea replaced it.
Then, no point in leylines in sb ( especially with bobs, wtf?) - you should mulligan to them because you cant cast them. Surgical is more optional, it's coming versus any kind of lingering souls included decks, still humiliating dredge ( dredge is good matchup people), reanim ( any combo is easy and you have reanimate, cmooon), loam ( you are not going to pack leylines in RUG against loam, right?), lands ( do you really see a lot of these?) etc.
Then, i think you should consider playing 2-3 hydroblasts in sb if you know about existing burns/ur/zoo(goblins,then).
So sb looks like
Perish
Nausea
Deathmark ( darkblast is awesome, but you mill good cards often, and mark kills big creatures)
Hydroblast
Surgical
Reanimate
Doubts about Kira - its insane, but comes into play right after action.

And please, do not discuss how this decks plays against installed humility or any irrelevant stuff that you will never see.

[AlmostGrown]

I have to agree with ultra_a on dark confidant - the bad outweighs the good.

My thoughts on kira, great-glass spinner:
After playing her, I'm 50/50 on her. In the matchups where I would want her (GW, U/R, RUG), I'm either boarding out the thing she protects (dreadnoughts vs GW) or my opponent can just ignore her (U/R). For now, I'm dropping her from the sideboard.

What do you all think of 1-2 Vendilion Clique in the sb? I'm using 1 atm and am loving it!

[Valarne]

@UltraA: Interesting post, and a good defense of the non-Bob build.

Why Nausea? Because it doesn't kill our Delver? Because you can use it against Elves, Goblins, EtW tokens? Its intriguing.

[Eldamion]

Hi folks,

I am the third member of the team, who played the UB Tempo decks with dark confidants at the magiccardmarket.eu tournament.

I liked our deck a lot, but due to some bad matchups and mistakes by my own, I lost some games to much ending 4-4.

What I was really missing during the hole tournaments where 2 or 3 for 1 trades. Never hat these over the hole day. Massaccre seems to be the right way here. But with the manacosts of 4 and killing our own Bobs and delvers, we were not playing it.

Maybe Tombstalker and massacre seems the way to go, I'll testing it over the next tournaments. Kira will get a try, love the card back to my succuss with merfolk.

@Valarne: Nausea kills all mana dorks, Thalia, Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant, unflipped Delvers, Vendilion Clique, Moste tribal Decks and so on. All you want from this card is a 2 or 3 for 1, set your opponents 1 turn back to setup your win.

[donnhart]

@ultra_a:

I totally agree with you, Bob is bad, Deathmark > Darkblast because Demise doesn´t kill big creatures. No need for more discussions, over and out.

[AlmostGrown]

Aside from the Torpor Orb + Dreadnought package, what else do you suggest to cut during sideboarding when playing against GWx/Maverick?

[Ajsmirnov]

I added Nausea to the board. And the 1st reason was to have a card that costs less then 3, kills half of Maverick's creatures and do not kill our Delvers. Combined with Perishes and Snuff Out, Nausea works fine.

AlmostGrown, if you board out 'Noughts, bring Reanimates and kill them Delver, Stalker or reanimated Kotr. Clique is always fine, but not sure it's worth a sb slot. Play it if you like it, why not?

[Valarne]

Why are you boarding out the Dreadnought package against GW? If they play 3 or 4 Pridemages main, ok sure - but usually they play just one 1 right? We can Daze their Zenith x2, and we also have Stifle. Their STP we can save our Forces to deal with. I think Dreadnought is fine against GW, and it is exactly a superquick tempo win that is necessary. The long game we are not equipped to win.

edit: one of the reasons for playing this version of tempo is exactly GW I think (and tempo mirrors). Canadian Thresh can easily be overpowered making their groundbeaters useless, giving them only Delver and burn. We have all evasion guys, and a potentially quicker clock, cutting down on the time to make the tricks GW can muster in the midgame.

[lordofthepit]

Why are you boarding out the Dreadnought package against GW? If they play 3 or 4 Pridemages main, ok sure - but usually they play just one 1 right? We can Daze their Zenith x2, and we also have Stifle. Their STP we can save our Forces to deal with. I think Dreadnought is fine against GW, and it is exactly a superquick tempo win that is necessary. The long game we are not equipped to win.

I think most Maverick lists play 2-3 Qasali Pridemages.

[Hof]

Nausea is nice tech. Kind of a poor man's Zealous Persecution.

For what it is worth, I went 2-2 with this deck at a local event last week. My conclusion so far is that the deck is too inconsistent for my taste. I am used to the consistency of UGr Threshold, and perhaps as a result I was uncomfortable with the comboish nature of a deck with Dreadnought. I did win some games with a 12/12 on the table, but there were other times when I had dead cards in my hand. If I were to try again, I would probably try a build without Torpor Orb and instead play some number of Vision Charm and Snapcaster.

[AlmostGrown]

Why are you boarding out the Dreadnought package against GW? If they play 3 or 4 Pridemages main, ok sure - but usually they play just one 1 right? We can Daze their Zenith x2, and we also have Stifle. Their STP we can save our Forces to deal with. I think Dreadnought is fine against GW, and it is exactly a superquick tempo win that is necessary. The long game we are not equipped to win.
I bring it out because they have multiple Pridemages, Swords to Plowshares, and some bring in Path to Exile to deal with the 12/12s. I board into the control plan which includes Reanimate, Nausea, Deathmark, and Perish.

[AlmostGrown]

Hey all, I'm going to a relatively big Legacy tournament tomorrow and will be expecting lots of UR Delver, RUG Delver, and Maverick. I also expect to see burn and elves, plus fringe decks as well. Here is the list I'll be playing. Any suggestions?


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
1 Darkblast
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
3 Snuff Out
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Torpor Orb
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Deathmark
1 Hydroblast
2 Nausea
2 Perish
2 Reanimate
1 Shrivel
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction

I will have a tournament report to post on either Sunday or Monday no matter my outcome.

[Ajsmirnov]

If you expect lots of UR and Burn, take +1 Hydroblast, probably instead of 3rd Spell Pierce.

[AlmostGrown]

All right guys, here is my tournament report for the Legacy 1k at The Encounter in Allentown, PA, USA. There were 36 people, 6 rounds cut to top 8. My final record: 3-3

My list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
1 Darkblast
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
3 Snuff Out
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Torpor Orb
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Deathmark
2 Hydroblast
2 Nausea
2 Perish
2 Reanimate
1 Shrivel
2 Surgical Extraction

Round 1 vs Justin using U/R Delver:
before the round starts, I end up seeing most of his decklist and know he is on U/R delver. In testing, pre-board the matchup is 50/50, but I'm feeling confident. He starts off strong with a turn 1 goblin guide, but I FOW it. 2 turns in he casts a Thunderous Wrath for it's miracle cost, and in response I brainstorm. In retrospect, I shouldn't have brainstormed and instead saved the mana to stifle his fetch for the turn. Later, I go for Stifle-Nought twice and get Stifle countered both times.

Game 2 I board in 2x Hyrdoblast, 1x Blue Elemental Blast, 1x Vendilion Clique and out 3x Snuff Out, 1x Thoughtseize (Probably should've been Darkblast). He hits 2 Thunderous Wraths this game, and burns me out quickly and I never see a sb card nor a 2nd blue card for the FOW in my opening hand. I had kept the hand because it had daze, brainstorm, 2 lands, and 2 Inquisitions of Kozilek (plus the FOW).

0-1

Round 2 vs Matt Elias with LED Dredge:
When I saw who I was paired against, I almost went on tilt - Matt is a great Legacy player and writes a lot on the subject - he is also a superb dredge player. Luckily, his deck decided to crap on him this round.

Game 1 - He mulligans twice. I'm on the play, and open with Underground Sea into Ponder, which he then put me on ANT. He played a City of Brass and therapy'd me naming Dark Ritual, completely missing. I untap, Waste his City of Brass, and pass with counter magic. He doesn't have a 2nd land, and scoops to Stifle-Nought.

I sideboard in 2 Hydroblasts, 1 Blue Elemental Blast, 1 Vendilion Clique, 2 Surgical Extractions and out 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Torpor Orb, 2 Snuff Out. Thoughtseize may be correct over Vendilion Clique.

Game 2 - I keep a hand with double wasteland, ponder, Island, Dreadnought, Vendilion Clique, and Hydroblast. He ends up slow dredging and beats me down with Ichorids + 2 zombie tokens. I should have mulliganed.

Game 3 - He mulligans once. I kept a sweet hand and wastelanded his 2 gemstone Mines, and FOW (exiling Hyrdoblast) the only spell he casts, a Careful Study. 3 turns later he scoops to my board: flipped delver + stifle-nought.

1-1

Round 3 vs Julian with Mono Red Burn

Julian was a nice guy, and we made some small talk before the round started. Also: Major props to The Encounter for ordering pizza for all the legacy players at no added cost!

Game 1 - He wins the roll, and I mull once. I lose by 1 turn, mostly because my *2* Delvers never flipped.

I sideboard in 2 Hydroblast, 1 Blue Elemental Blast, 1 Vendilion Clique (I need to drop this card from my sb, but I'm not sure for what) and board out 3 Snuff Out, 1 Thoughtseize

Game 2 I start with an Inquisition of Kozilek hitting a Flame Rift, leaving him with 4 mountains, a chain lightning, and fireblast. He rips a Goblin Guide, and starts hitting him. Luckily I draw a Blue Blast and have daze + spell pierce, and end up outlasting him.

Game 3 - I mull once again, and start off with an Inquisition of Kozilek hitting a Pyroblast, leaving him with 2 mountain, 1 bolt, 1 fireblast. I end up losing because I brick 5-6 turns in a row, including a brainstorm which drew me a Wasteland and 2 Dreadnoughts.

1-2, but I need points for GP Byes so I'm staying in the whole tournament.

Round 4 vs Sam using Enchantress

Sam was a cool guy, we had nice banter going on throughout the games.

Game 1 - I lose the roll, but am able to sart off with a Thoughtseize hitting an Argothian Enchantress leaving him with 2 sterling gove, 1 elephant grass, 1 o-ring. I get him to 11 with a Tombstalker, but never draw stifle-delver after he resolves his 2nd or 3rd Elephant Grass.

Game 2 - I Mull once, but he mulls as well. I Thoughtseize away his blood moon, then FOW his replenish and he scoops.

Game 3 - In the end, he just bricked more times than I did and I win with 2 tombstalkers.

2-2

Round 5 vs Nick with LED Dredge

Game 1 - he wins the roll, but chooses to be on the draw. I have some countermagic in hand and an Inquisition of Kozilek which I use to strip his Putrid Imp, which leaves him with 2 stinkweed imp, 2 faithless Looting, and 1 cabal therapy. A turn later he hits a land and draws into an LED which ends up killing me.

Game 2 - He slowrolls an LED by going off turn 2 after I cast my delver (I had hydroblast in hand, and since he didn't go off turn 1 I thought the coast was clear).

Sideboard: See round 2

2-3

Round 6 vs Brandon with Tezz-Affinity

Brandon is a friend of mine, and we rode to the tourney together.

Game 1 - Not many notes on this game, except he had 4 power out turn 1 and I never drew removal or any creatures.

Game 2 - I flip 2 delvers at once on turn 3, and he kept a super slow hand.

Game 3 - I had turn 2 Stifle-nought backed by 2 wasteland, FOW, and a Thoughtseize.

3-3

All in all, I really liked the deck but Delver flipping felt slightly unreliable. I definitely want to cut the Vendilion Clique from the sideboard. Another important thing to note, was that there was 0 maverick decks. The field was half Burn/UR Delver, with RUG in close 2nd. Also, against most decks in the format Dreadnought is extremely backbreaking :D

[Ajsmirnov]

Dont give up! You'll crush them next time, I'm sure ))
Just don't be so hurry in casting delver. Many times turn 2 it is better then turn 1.

Btw round 1 why didn't you stifle his 5 damage miracle?

[AlmostGrown]

I wasn't aware that miracle was something you could stifle - I just never made the connection that I could stifle that. Stifling that trigger actually seems insane! That is definitely something to remember for the future.

[Ajsmirnov]

Ah, ok. Hope it helps )

[kiblast]

So. I'd like to try this deck for an upcoming event. Lots of Stoneforges expected, both from Maverick and UWx Blade. Then Canadian, Nic Fit, Reanimator.
Seems like a decent field in which a 2 coloured Tempo deck (you have an edge on Tempo Thresh light manabase) could do well. I'm worried mostly by Nic Fit and his cheap hand disruption.

I'm going to play Torpor Orb for sure given the presence of Stoneforge and Witness (Nic Fit) edit: and Snappy, of course! ( UWx Blade, mostly).

Any suggestions on maindeck must choices?

[bob2008]

Any suggestions on maindeck must choices?

Yor meta sounds like a lot removal for your guys. Therfore I would strongly recommend Kira instead of the 2 Spell Pierce.

best regards,

bob

[Ajsmirnov]

Time to share some exp after 5 tournaments played with this deck.

Part 1 - Matches.

I played 2 BoM 2012 days(5-4 and 6-3), SCGInvitationalQualifier in Moscow(3-3), GPT Ghent in Moscow(4-1), and one local legacy(finals split).

Total matches I played:

RUG - 5 win; 2 loss
Maverick - 4 win; 2 loss
Esper Delverblade - 1 win; 1 loss
ANT - 2 win
NicFit - 1 win; 1 loss
Sneak Attack - 1 win
Dredge - 1 win
Belcher - 1 win
Aggroloam - 1 win
Burn - 2 win
UBR tempo - 1 win
Enchantress - 1 win
UW Thopters - 1 win
Berserk Stompy - 1 win
UR Burn - 1 loss
UW Terminus - 1 loss
UW Stoneforge - 1 loss
MUD - 1 loss
Reanimator - 1 loss
Merfolks - 1 loss
Boros - 1 loss
UB Dreadnought(mirror vs Grigory Griaznov) - 1 loss

Among them should have won 1 of 2 lost matches vs RUG, Reanimator and Boros. But misplayed terribly.

So, as you see(and our tests with Ultra are mostly same), the deck has good match against every combo in legacy now, and against top tier decks like RUG and Maverick. The match against UBR tempo(Caleb's list) was also very easy, both my threats and my manabase are stronger. Maverick is slightly worse, but nothing survives after so much removal is boarded.
All RUGs die to their own Tarmogoyfs(Reanimated), Mavericks suffer from Reanimated Aven Mindcensor. Also Reanimate causes opponent to "WOW" :)

Bad matches for the deck are UW with StP, PtE, Explosives, Terminuses... + Snapcaster Mage. You can try to win if able discard 1st remouval and they do not topdeck 2nd soon, Torpor Orb, Kira and Surgical Extraction(on StP) help a lot.

Decks with Fireblast are also a trouble, unless you are ready to waste 3 SB slots on Hydroblasts.

And some strange ones like MUD, ex: I was killed by 3 Platinum Angels. Crazy things can sometimes happen, if they topdeck Chalice and resolve it for 1 )


Part 2 - List.

4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
2 Torpor Orb
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

SB:
2 Reanimate
3 Perish
3 Shrivel
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Me and Ultra tried different variants during tests, even discussed splashing green or red - all was worse than pure stable UB. The result of tests was: if you want to play 3c tempo - go RUG. Otherwise UB is fine.

There are 3 flexible slots in MD, 8th fetch and 2 Kiras. Can be 4th Daze and 2 discard spells/removal for opposing Delvers. Why not Pierce or Snare? They are good, but just not good enough. If you're winning there is no time to keep mana for Snare, if losing - it won't help. (Ultra can explain it better than me)

One more thing - see SB. It's 15 black cards. The idea is to try to ignore opponent's Pyroblasts.
Surgical Extraction is the best card in SB. After board with 6 discard spells we Thoughtseize, they Brainstorm resp to Thoughtseize and hide good cards on top, we discard smth and Surgical Brainstorm to shuffle.
Extracting Tropical or StP is also fine vs RUG / UW. Maybe we even test it in the maindeck...

Part 3 - Russian Airlines(current deck's name)

Thus I recorded for myself that UB is a fine choice for a competitive field, without lots of Burn, MUD etc. It's ok to take it for a big event like BoM or GP, but only if you have byes - it minimizes the possibility to face the ones like Boros or Merfolks. Be paried against RUG, Maverick and combo all day is good.

Thanks again to Ultra for the decklist he created(and to bob2008 for Kiras). I had cool time playing this deck at BoM and Moscow, lots of fun and great test for my play skills. I think will keep playing it at tournaments.

[Moondancerbb]

Why Play Shrivel over something like Massacre?

[Ajsmirnov]

Why Play Shrivel over something like Massacre?

very simple. massacre kills our delver, shrivel not

[Moondancerbb]

very simple. massacre kills our delver, shrivel not

So what matches are you bringing shrivel in against? Seems like Maverick is the most suited. Is killing their Mother's and Thalia's enough?

[Ajsmirnov]

So what matches are you bringing shrivel in against? Seems like Maverick is the most suited. Is killing their Mother's and Thalia's enough?

And Hierarch and Scryb Ranger...

Also board it against combos with Warrens, some random decks like Elves...

[rmihael]

What about Sneak Show match up? Doesn't seem easy. They have their own counters to protect combo and can dodge Wasteland by playing basics. Sneak Attack doesn't care about Stifle and can get out Turn 3.
Is racing them the only plan this deck could have? I can't find any nice side board tech against it.

[ultra_a]

So you're basically saying, that RUG has terrible match with Sneak also. Same problems, no discard, goyf maximum 3/4, goose 1/1 all day long.
Additional pyroblasts do exactly the same as extra discard + surgicals. If you cant deal with sneak this way i suggest 2 things - dont play that kind of decks ever, or add pack of flusterstorms to ruin smth else.
Up to you

[rmihael]

So you're basically saying, that RUG has terrible match with Sneak also. Same problems, no discard, goyf maximum 3/4, goose 1/1 all day long.
Additional pyroblasts do exactly the same as extra discard + surgicals. If you cant deal with sneak this way i suggest 2 things - dont play that kind of decks ever, or add pack of flusterstorms to ruin smth else.
Up to youI have zero experience playing this deck versus experienced Sneak Show pilot. What I'm hearing around it that RUG has even match up versus it at best. It's been a long since I last played RUG, so I don't make my own judgement here.
I expect this deck to stand better because targeted discard is > Pyroblast in my opinion. But I'm looking for ideas how to make playing vs Sneak Show less fair. Not saying that this deck desperately needs it, but still interesting problem.

[ultra_a]

You should mention "fairness" apart from MTG. What are you defining as "fair"? Everyone have (sometimes idiotic, sadly) their own preferences and defines at in a different way, so is "fair" to play around mathematical expectations, or goldfishing every game? :)

In either ways UB' as far as RUG's distance from goldfish to decent opening hand is minimal, so they're both "fair" in any kind.

People's attempts to make good match even better usually ruin at least some other matches and at last the whole idea. So yes, Sneak is the match you can lose, no doubt in that. But you cant still lose to chalice 1 turn 1 etc.
The key is to define what are you more probably losing to and what you're not, that affects starters you keep, spell cast order, considerations of opponent hand and also picking cards for the deck. And for sneak attack - okay, you should not change ANYTHING to maintain match at least good.

[rmihael]

People's attempts to make good match even better usually ruin at least some other matches and at last the whole idea. So yes, Sneak is the match you can lose, no doubt in that. But you cant still lose to chalice 1 turn 1 etc.
The key is to define what are you more probably losing to and what you're not, that affects starters you keep, spell cast order, considerations of opponent hand and also picking cards for the deck. And for sneak attack - okay, you should not change ANYTHING to maintain match at least good.Fair enough. Then I'll try to find someone with Sneak Show around and playtest this matchup.

[Honoluluicecaps]

I've been testing the following list, no SB yet though. I know it's a different direction from the initial list, and I suppose I could test out Dreadnought as well, but a number of people in my meta run Maverick and Stoneblade and it seems poor in that match up. MD Image is for Show and Tell. I also have considered MD Faerie Macabres.

Creatures (14):

4x Baleful Strix
3x Vendilion Clique
3x Phantasmal Image
4x Spellstutter Sprite

Spells (26):

4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Snuff Out
3x Daze
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Brainstorm
3x Bitterblossom
1x Ponder

Lands (20):

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Drowned Catacomb (Anti-Choke, obviously)

I'm interested in some feedback, and some ideas for the sideboard. I do wish I ran more beaters, but I'm just not sure that Dreadnought is the way to go. Maybe Tombstalker?

Also, Snuff Out is obviously terrible against Griselbrand, but running other black removal (Go for the Throat for example) just seems clunky when so much of my deck is jammed up at the 2cc slot.

[xfxf]

UB Delver videos of Sam Black are up on SCG. I'm not sure if it's preium or not but it's definitely nice to check out. His list looks janky but plays out rather good. I don't like dead cards like the thougt scours or vapor snag (and the singleton Reanimator with the hopes of snatching Griselbrand) in his list so I made a few modifications. My biggest worry is against aggro decks like UR Delver, Goblins, Merfolk etc. and chalice decks. Cards like dread of night and perish from the sideboard help a great deal against Maverick and Esper. For reference here's my list:

4 Baleful Strix
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Ghastly Demise
1 Go fo the Throat
2 Unearth


4 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Creeping Tar Pit (not sure about this either)

[Hof]

Me and Ultra tried different variants during tests, even discussed splashing green or red - all was worse than pure stable UB. The result of tests was: if you want to play 3c tempo - go RUG. Otherwise UB is fine.
I might try this deck again for GP Gent, but I really, really want to splash red for 4 bolts. You mention stability as the reason for pure UB and I totally get that, but I am used to playing Ugr Thresh with 18 lands - one basic - the decks are similar, and this one has 19 lands and 4 Stifle, so somehow I don't think it will be a problem. I am talking about the lightest possible splash: Just 4 maindeck bolts and 2 REB in the sb - maybe 1-2 artifact hate, and nothing else.

The maindeck would look like this, care to comment?

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Torpor Orb
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

[Chikenbok]

Been toying around with this list:



4 Baleful Strix
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder



20 land.

Been testing pretty damned well if I may say so - wasn't impressed with a big 12/12

[Ajsmirnov]

Hof i know there is no time to test a lot before Ghent right now... but maybe first try adding Go for the Throat instead of Bolts and keep 2 colors?
Also as for artifacts(Batterskull) I was toying with Carry Away )
sample:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Go for the Throat(or even better 2, and 4 Daze)
3 Snuff Out
2 Torpor Orb
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
-without maindecked kira 18 lands is ok

2_All: maybe it's better to discuss great deck of Sam Black with 1/1 flying instead of 12/12 trample in it's own topic, not here? It's about tempo btw.

[Hof]

Ajsmirnov: Thanks for the reply.

The thing is, I really want the extra reach because I found Delver to be unimpressive on his own in this deck. If I resolve Dreadnought or Tombstalker, fine, any one of those two go all the way on their own, but a single Delver with no support at all is hard, 7 turns is a lot for a tempo deck. With 4 bolts and 8 cantrips, those 7 turns easily become 5 turns. Plus, I really dont see the mana base becoming significantly less stable with the list I suggested. I am going to fetch double black anyway, and with this I can fetch Badlands eot and cast bolt or REB.

Anyway, you are right, there is not enough time to test, so I am probably playing something else and more well known for the GP and save this venture for later. :)

[ultra_a]

I will repeat again. If you want to play this deck, you have only 3 slots to change - Kiras and 19th land. ONLY THEM.
Its only 1 "but" here. With merfolk buzzing around (really bad MU) you may cut another 1 card ( Daze, to be exact) and add 4 bolts ( bolt is great vs RUG, because UB is usually in bad shape against t1 delver on draw)
With grown popularity of idiotic Sneakless Show-And-Tell combo and merfolks you should definitely play 2-3 Pyroblasts in sb ( cut 2 additional discard spells + 1 edict), then cut another edict and smth for 2 Kiras ( with REB countering snapcasters they will be extremely gamebreaking vs UW).

As for me, i would try this

4 delver
4 dreadnought
3 stalker

4 storm
4 daze
4 fow
4 stifle
3 bolt
3 snuff out
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition
3 ponder
2 torpor orb

1 island
1 swamp
1 volcanic
1 badlands
3 underground sea
4 wasteland
4 delta
2 tarn
1 mire

sb
3 surgical
2 perish
3 shrivel
2 reanimate
3 pyroblast
2 kira

[bob2008]

I did some testing with this deck last week and it was as evil as i remembered it ;-) cool deck !!!!
Currently testing the following SB-idea... Spellskite instead of Kira as additional protection for our guys.
I feel that sometimes Kira & Clique are difficult to resolve (especially with only 18 lands).
Spellskite could :
- be easier to resolve
-offer a similar (OK, nearly similar) protection against removal-spells
- has great applications against (delver)burn and co. / burn spells in general
- good (additional) body for blocking mongoose, gobos, thalia etc.
- big downside: no "forward" potential and/or evasion like Kira

what do you think about spellskite?

another topic:

Surprise: I feel that folk is a terrible MU (unless you have a quick nought:cool:) - any SB suggestions to improve it? atm i have EE in the board to wipe out all those lords

best regards ,

bob

[HaShugz7]

What do y'all think of pyroclasm over shrivel?

[dsck]

What do y'all think of pyroclasm over shrivel?

Doesnt kill mother of runes...

[Ajsmirnov]

I did some testing with this deck last week and it was as evil as i remembered it ;-) cool deck !!!!
Currently testing the following SB-idea... Spellskite instead of Kira as additional protection for our guys.
I feel that sometimes Kira & Clique are difficult to resolve (especially with only 18 lands).
Spellskite could :
- be easier to resolve
-offer a similar (OK, nearly similar) protection against removal-spells
- has great applications against (delver)burn and co. / burn spells in general
- good (additional) body for blocking mongoose, gobos, thalia etc.
- big downside: no "forward" potential and/or evasion like Kira

what do you think about spellskite?

another topic:

Surprise: I feel that folk is a terrible MU (unless you have a quick nought:cool:) - any SB suggestions to improve it? atm i have EE in the board to wipe out all those lords

best regards ,

bob

Yeah, folks are very hard to win against. I decided just to wait until RUG and Maverick destroy them again, looks to happen very soon ...and then it's UB time! )

As for Spellskite - looks like not better then Counterbalance(with 8 cantrips and low curve not so hard to always keep cc=1 against StP/PtE, no need to play Top, was discussed previously here) and CB much better against combos.

But I still prefer siding in Cliques, out Orbs and 1 Nought against Miracle Control. simply added 19th land for Kiras and Cliques. Together with Surgicals it helps a lot to keep them under control for the needed time.

Also tested Ultra's UBr variant, and - No. UB is just more stable, with UBr I started loosing to double Wasteland etc. Those 3 Bolt are not needed SO much. Hope he agrees.

[HaShugz7]

Yeah, folks are very hard to win against. I decided just to wait until RUG and Maverick destroy them again, looks to happen very soon ...and then it's UB time! )

As for Spellskite - looks like not better then Counterbalance(with 8 cantrips and low curve not so hard to always keep cc=1 against StP/PtE, no need to play Top, was discussed previously here) and CB much better against combos.

But I still prefer siding in Cliques, out Orbs and 1 Nought against Miracle Control. simply added 19th land for Kiras and Cliques. Together with Surgicals it helps a lot to keep them under control for the needed time.

Also tested Ultra's UBr variant, and - No. UB is just more stable, with UBr I started loosing to double Wasteland etc. Those 3 Bolt are not needed SO much. Hope he agrees.

So what does your current list look like?

[Ajsmirnov]

Like in 1st post, but with Vendillion Clique in sb instead of additional Thoughtseize.
Just give maverick and rug a munth or two to punish merfolks.

[Hof]

what do you think about spellskite?

I actually tried and tested this when I was tinkering with the deck, and found Spellskite weaker than Kira because it doesn't protect itself like Kira does.

[HaShugz7]

Preparing for tourney on Saturday with about 30 people...meta will be lots of combo maverick and some Merfolk. Just wanted too see what y'all think of my list and if there is anything that you would change?

4 Delver
4 Nought
3 Stalker

4 Storm
4 Ponder
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Hymn
3 Snuff Out
2 GFTT
2 Torpor Orb

4 Delta
3 Tarn
1 Mire
3 Underground
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Island

SB:

3 Extraction
2 Cursed Totem
2 Reanimate
2 Perish
2 Clique
2 Explosives
2 Edict

[frogger42]

I remember the good ole days when Trinket Mage would fetch up Dreadnaught for you.

Here's just my two cents on playing Dreadnaught - the weakness of the deck isn't so much that you spend 2 cards to get a finisher, it's that in some MUs your setup cards (Stifle, TOrb) are divinely worthless. Burn, Merfolk (as mentioned) even some Zoo hands - ie if they draw duals instead of fetches - and now you're playing 6+ awful cards VS your opponent. When Stifle and/or TOrb absolutely stink on their own, you're relying on Dreadnaught to make them good again. So now 20% of your deck is actually playing combo, instead of 100% Tempo/Control. I think the meta, at least in the States, is too diverse to depend on Stifle and TOrb being useful in 8 out of 10 matches, and you obviously can't afford to cut 6 disruption (+ 4 finishers, the Naughts) and find 10 SB cards that are even half-relevant.

So, just given the nature of running Dreadnaught x4, I've generally found it actually a bit more of a metagame deck. That's what I've noticed from back in the day. I'd probably MD 1-2x Naughts if Trinket Mage made the cut somehow, as it'd make SB-ing the D-Naught package out possible.

[ultra_a]

Hymn is just terrible - dont play it, play thoughtseize/inquisition (2/2 is best)
Why cannot people understand the simple thing - dont change maindeck except 2 kira + 19 land ( actually i wouldnt change that too, Kira does much more than protecting against STP). Furthermore, i wouldnt change much in sb either.
If you're going to play a lot with random crap like MUD or decks with ensnaring bridges etc, merfolks and burn ( + if there're really tons of UW) - dont play this deck in a tournament, you're probably going to have a random lose.
Take this deck only if you are sure, that more than lets say 75% of opponents will play RUG, Maverick, Esper-Delver or any mystic deck, Elves or any combo ( pretty much standard meta as for me) on high tables. If you top8 - you will probably play against these decks and would be favourite.

So - yes. It's the metagame deck. And also you should be knowing the gameplan in every situation to extract the full potential - if you take this deck to tournament for the 1st time and dont know what to daze/discard or even keep, you would probably lose.

[frogger42]

So - yes. It's the metagame deck.

Strategically, though, you can't much control what other people are going to play, or who you're going to get matched up against. I'm near Providence, and one of the SCG Opens this year had a T8 of 1 whole RUG Delver, plus Aggro-Loam, Death and Taxes and a ton of other completely rogue decks "not tier 1" in the meta. Those decks updated old strategies to smash through the top few decks (esp Delver), so I wouldn't bank on what you're going to face - if you put the effort in, anything goes. Last week I got crushed by freaking UG Miracle 12-Post in a local tourney. The guy won through 4 rounds of the usual stuff and left a total wtf on my face.

I think in 6+ rounds you're likely run into 1-2 decks where Stifle + TOrb doesn't fight your opponent effectively. It's a pain enough to side out 5 subpar cards, but siding out 10 is impossible. That's enough blanks for Johnny Budget to seal the deal with Mono-Black Zombies, and you don't want that to happen, right?

[ultra_a]

Its the matter of chance. If its 20% chance to meet some crap - its ok, if 50% - its not.
Stifle works with dreadnought, you cant count it as a dead card because of it in any case - its a part of combo + mana denial + coffee.
In this deck you side out 8+ cards against every tier deck without any problems, its the gameplan. What's the pain in that? :confused:

PS. Monoblack zombies for me is in category called "random crap", so i dont care about it much.

[frogger42]

In this deck you side out 8+ cards against every tier deck without any problems, its the gameplan. What's the pain in that? :confused:


I'm not sure we're on the same page here. But good luck all the same.

[bob2008]

Agree with ultra here.
I usually side in a lot of cards against RUG and GW.
Often I board out 4 FOW, 1 Nought, 1 Orb and X to bring in more & better answers...
For example in my last testing against RUG I brought in:
2 reanimate, 1 discard, 2 EE, 3 Perish
It worked out well ...:cool:
It is important to find a good balance between the controlish elements of the board while keeping up the pressure at the same time.
Best regards,
bob

EDIT: spellskite sucks !!!! Kira is better!

[metronome2charisma]

i played a delver, snapcaster,bob build for a few months
i played this deck(the stiflenought version) for about a month
the nought version is just way worse imo...getting 2 for oned for a 12/12 that you have to set up for is not worth it and it also makes runnning bad cards(i.e. gitaxian probe) seem like a good idea...its not...you want business spells and not junk that takes turns to setup ..i've tested alot of u/b and this is what i would run

4 delver
4 balefulstrix
4 snapcaster

4 brainstorm
3 iok
4 daze
3 fow
2 mana leak
4 stifle
2 thoughtseize
3 ghastly demise
2 vaporsnag
1 echoing truth
1 thoughtscour

4 ug sea
4 polluted delta
4 wasteland
1 tarpit
1 drowned catacomb
1 marsh flats
2 misty
1 swamp
1 island

sb is really meta dependent (as are alot of mb choices)

stifle is really going to start coming back into favor as miracles is growing in popularity also hitting fetches with it and dazeing is awesome as is discard into daze
card advantage comes from snaps and strix..strix kills everything it can block so it a rwo mana removal that cantrips and deals damage and also piches to force. vapor snag gives a little reach while making getting those last couple points in easier..and in the first few turns against alot of decks is a time walk...
the discard and counter package with snapcaster actually makes combo a good matchup...thoughts and ideas are welcome but i can say for sure this list is better than the stiflenought list...i top 8ed the allentown gpt in may with this list minus strix plus bob..the stiflenought list went 3-3(as mentioned on page 5)..list is good

[Ajsmirnov]

spellskite sucks !!!! Kira is better!

Yeah :smile:

and when I played 2 Diabolic Edict in sb they were also great vs rug

Btw siding lots against rug or gw is not because ub is weak against them. it's because we slightly transform the deck to blank their sided Ancient grudges etc...

[gesucca]

Hi guys,

I'm toying with this kind of deck right now, and I'm just arrived to some considerations.

Phirexyan Dreadnought is a sort of a double-edged blade: when you manage to use it in combo with Stifle/Torpor Orb you can maybe win the game, otherwise you are playing with 6 nails in your tempo deck, and it's not a really good thing. This was obvious, I imagined it even bevore just sleeving up the deck, but when I tested it was a real pain to draw a Torpor Orb or a Dreddy when you just don't need them. IMHO, this is a deck that can't afford dead draws (like Canadian Threshold, every mulligan is a nail in your coffin).

So, I tryed to play only the tempo role, swapping out the Dreddy pakage to fit in more cantrips and the old but gold Sinkhole.

On this card, I want to spend more than a word. It is ad additional denial tool, wich manage to fully complete the deny-them-a-color strategy smashing basic lands that can ruin our road to denial. Unfortunatly, this rose has some spikes. Double B is not that problem, but can became a pain depending on the match-up. The main thing is that we tap out sorcery speed, and this is a big issue.

So, I come to the conclusion that I want to play as free spell as possible, so maximizing the number of Dazes and Snuff Outs is the first thing. But, also, without a way to profit from the extra tempo that Sinkhole gives me, it is simply futile. So, unless I have already a Delver out, I gained nothing destroying my opponent's land and putting him a turn back in mana development. So, I think I need more tempo beaters like Mongoose, but I don't know where to go. Thresholded Putrid Imp seems just too weak, as other options.

Any thoughts on this?

[Squirrel]

Of course, the Dreadnought two card combo is card disadvantage, and torpor orb can be a bad card too if you arent up against something like Goblins. But thats the risk for getting a (yes, its fragile) artifact creature that wins the game if undisrupted.
Btw, i played the following list last saturday (28 man) to a 7th place:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Snuff out
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Verdant Catacombs

My board wasn't that good and a random pile, but no spell snare targets ( like in the main)

Sideboard:

1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Perish
2 Dread of Night
3 Ghastly Demise


My matchups were:
R1 Canadian 2 -1
R2 Canadian 2 -0
i finished all the games with either dready or salker after winning the resource fight. the loss was from mull to 4
R 3 Canadian 1-2 A good friend of mine, he outplayed me with stifle wasteland and had enough forces for my last attempts to play a big monster. He got 1th. nice one.
i never sided out the dreadnought package, because i won the first game against the first both and gambled (there aren't many artifacts played here) and i knew the sideboard of my friend.

R 4 Sneak Show (1-2) (5th)
I lost one game because i thought he was playing a UW Fish deck, holding a hand with two snuff out and getting blown out by show and tll turn 3 and an emrakul
game 2 my notes arnet great but i win.
game 3 he topdecks show and tell with only emrakul in hand after i thoughtseized sneak attack -.-

R5 Dredge 2-1
he dredges badly game 1 so i think i can win and we play a while. i cant. :)
he outs me on extraction, sides in ashen ghouls, i board grafdiggers cag and nihil spellbomb, have a good hand, slow him down then eot on his second turn mill myself with vision charm to get a tombstalker next round for fast beats.
first card i mill: grafdigger's cage :) due to an absurd amount of brainstorms, ponders, and fetchies, i manage to find two nihil spellbombs, while the game gets long, the finsih being an epic fight with him casting stinkweed imps for my tombstalker and narcomoeba and ashen ghoul waiting for attacking back (grave non existent) and me putting into play 2 other tombstalker and dazing his second stinkweed.

while we are shuffling for game 3 there are only 2 mins left on the clock, he offers me the draw, but im on all in now (hes a friend so i should have taken the draw)

I mull to six wich enables a second turn nought and a force with pitch for his natures claim, killing him on the 5th extra turn. :) Lucky me

3-2

Pros:
my two best friends are also to 8, first and third :)
Opponents scoop to dreadnought
top8 after a half year break
nice games, the dredge fight being the best one
Slops:
loosing to sneak show sucks. even burn is funnier
redblast is a serious problem
Snuff out. no creatures- no removal needed
the swamp was clearly not needed

I think about splasing red for lightning bolts main and redblast in the sideboard..

[Ajsmirnov]

I mull to six wich enables a second turn nought and a force with pitch for his natures claim, killing him on the 5th extra turn. :) Lucky me


Congrats! nice one. :)

Splashing for Pyroblasts in SB is ok, if Spell Pierces aren't enough...but red cards are not needed maindeck and snuff is free. Being able to kill hierarch t1 AND remain on stifle-mana is cool. Maybe you're just on emotions after a topdecked Show and Tell? You know you can brainstorm away those snuffs when not needed...

[Squirrel]

Ubr vs UB

I'm going to test this list:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tombstalker

2 Vision Charm
4 Stifle

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Daze
4 Force of Will

2 Thoughtsieze
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Vendilion Clique

The UB Version is going to be:
Maindeck:
- manabase: back to 1 island 4 Usea 4 waste blue fetch configuration
- 4 Lightning Bolt
+3 Snuff out
+1 ? (Thoughtseize/Snuffout/darkblast/ before it was Vision Charm, but 3 are too many i think)

Sideboard:
-2 Redblast
+2 Spell Pierce

Im going to test and play both versions, swithcing whatever i feel is better, the amount of maverick and other big creatures decreased, so bolt is better than the free snuff out because snuff outing a delver is not funny.
The additional reach is nice, and there are so many omniscience decks running rampant right now.. so redblast is a good one i think.

[catmint]

Hello everyone,

i am not really interested in playing dreadnought. Hight power of course - easily disrupted and card disadvantage or getting stuck with situational cards -> low consistency.

what attracts me of UB is Baleful Strix. I think this card is worth to build around. Thats of course a more grindy deck, abandoning the pure tempo strategy, but gaining a good card advantage engine, which is strong against almost the hole field.

This can be done by using the synergis of
Baleful Strix
Cabal Therapy
Thought Scour
Unearth
Snapcaster Mage

Here my first build

//Mana: 19 lands - 2 wastelands for occasional trouble lands
4 Island
2 swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tombstalker

//Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother

//Filter
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thought Scour
2 Unearth


SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Bitterblossom
2 Pithing Needle
3 Smother

Has anyone tried this? It's fun and powerful but requires a lot of skill. Cabal Therapy is one of the most skill intensive cards and since you are very "proactive" tapping out a lot you need to understand exactly what your opponent is doing to go for the right gameplan.

My thoughts on card choices:
For control & combo: thoughtseize, bitterblossom, Vendilion Clique & Needle.
Needle & bitterblossom are tuned for Miracles, but I especially sided a lot of needle. You will find a lot of targets for it giving usually good value altough it beeing narrow. I use it vs. merfolk, goblins, maverick, deed decks, planeswalkers, equipments,...

Tombstalker is just a very effeciant flyer which I am missing with RUG against maverick and you need a high tougness guy against red decks.

Mass vs. spot removal.
I went only for spot removal, because we can not use EE since we play out our own stuff all the time and altough Perish is super good against RUG & Maverick or dread of night against Maverick and Lingering souls, Tribals are still a very tough matchup. Following creatures are the most problematic where only generic spot removal can help against all of them:
- Scavenging ooze (very gravyard dependent deck)
- mother of runes (obv...)
- goblin piledriver (protection from strix)
- Island-Walk lords (making strix look stupid)

[Squirrel]

I don't know if i should continue posting here, or entomb the Dreadstalker thread, or post in the Dreadstill thread, i think, here it is the best place:

So I played another tournament today, here's a quick report, decklist and results
decklist:

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
2 Vision Charm
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tombstalker
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Perish
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Forked Bolt
1 Darkblast

many creature decks today (unnormal) so a bit more removal





Here the Results :

R1 UW Miracle 2-1
R2 Jund Nic Fit with Scapeshift Combo 2-0
R3 Goblins 2-0
R4 Shardless BUG 2-1
R5 ID UW Miracle
He's a friend and we ID ( the only two with 4-0)


MVP: the whole deck xD
Clique for taking miracles
EE for blowing up entreat tokens
Dreadnought for killing goblins alone with stifle force backup
lightning bolt for doing the last points of damage in 3 games
tombstalker at shrinking opponents tarmogoyf while being 5/5 flying
stifle: fetchies, goblins, explorer, anchestral visions, miracles wohou



Just for reference, i didnt play since my last report. (not that you think i only post good results.)

Sideboard needs 2 EE and 2 Vendilon Clique (didn't find them before the tournament)

I boarded out Dreadnought + vision charm except against goblins
every other deck hat sweeper.

Don't know if anybody else plays this, I do..

[ultra_a]

Well played there :)
Your sideboard is veeeery strange though. And I'm concerned about no-basics manabase - its hard to deal with Thalia + wasteland without free snuff outs.
EE works fine with 3 land types, also you can try to play clique even in maindeck somehow, because you dont run torpor orb.
Also, we went for 4 bitterblossom in sb of standard UB to beat miracles easily.

[Spigore]

Hi all,

I've been checking out this topic quite a bit now. I think it's a very strong deck, although I found Torpor Orb a bit tricky to play.
I changed the 2 Torpor Orb and added the 4th Daze and a Vision Charm.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Vision Charm
3 Snuff Out
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
2 Reanimate
3 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Nausea


I think it's basically still the same solid list. I haven't found the time to seriously test the deck, but I think this is somewhat how I would sideboard.
Any thoughts about this?

TES
-3 Snuff Out
-2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Nausea
2 Vendilion Clique

Merfolk
-2 Daze
-2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Vendilion Clique

Tempo Thresh
-4 Force of Will
-4 Daze
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Vision Charm
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Perish

Maverick
-4 Force of Will
-4 Daze
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Vision Charm
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Nausea
3 Perish
2 Reanimate

UW Miracle
-3 Snuff Out
3 Surgical Extraction

I have no idea if I'm doing it right vs Tempo Thresh. Surgical Extraction on Mongoose/Goyf seems like an almost broken play. Cutting 4 FoW + 4 Daze seems a bit too much, no?

[Squirrel]

Well played there :)
Your sideboard is veeeery strange though. And I'm concerned about no-basics manabase - its hard to deal with Thalia + wasteland without free snuff outs.
EE works fine with 3 land types, also you can try to play clique even in maindeck somehow, because you dont run torpor orb.
Also, we went for 4 bitterblossom in sb of standard UB to beat miracles easily.

the problem with all of those suggestions is, my meta is really strange, we have many different player each week, i played against the only two uw miracle, a friend of mine played against soul sisters, goblins, elves, other top8 this time were solidarity,dredge and affinity^^.
So Thalia isn't played that much, and i need more versatile cards (EE, Bolt, Clique).
Nonbasics worked fine, i had trouble with Island (Bad with tombstalker) and swamp (cantrips) in conjuntion with wasteland, even more than with this list.

@Spigore
I like that you play vision charm! i'm considering cutting down to 1 vision charm and adding a trickbind, not sure if i can support 4 tombstalker then..
With double Island, don't you finde yourself with no chance to cast tombstalker? i think he is the single best creature in this deck.
Also, i think cc3 cards in the maindeck are tough to support, and while i love having kira, she comes down later than all other threads in this deck.
also, good players know how to play around here with cards like Scryb ranger or karakas.

Boarding plan:

I board out Dreadnought against UW Miracle.. Terminus or Stp hit you quite hard, end resolving it isn't simple either. You MUST board the Vendilion Clique, you can take miracles out of hand in response to the trigger and things like that, an she's great against jace!
For which matchups is the nausea?

I don't think you need Surgical on Mongoose, as your creatures are bigger..
and for my part, i don't board out force of wills against Tempo (at least not all) if i leave dreadnought in. Boarding out Force or not is a personal thing, though.
I would not want to board out Dazes btw.. often you can keep them on low lands, and daze is a hardcounter then.

Just my 2 cents.

[Ajsmirnov]

I don't think you need Surgical on Mongoose, as your creatures are bigger..


Maybe Surgical on dual land(Wastelanded) is better? Volcanic to protect our Delvers from burn spells and Pyroblasts... Sometimes Tropical, but with those Perishes and Edicts we rly can deal with creatures.

As for boarding against RUG - I used to win about 30% matches with their own Tarmogoyf(Reanimated).
So it's like:
-4 dreadnought
-2 orb
-2 fow and 1 thoughtseize if I play, -2 thoughtseize and 1 fow if I draw

+2 Perish
+2 Reanimate
+3 Surgical
+2 Diabolic Edict

[Spigore]

Squirrel;
Thanks a lot for your feedback. Casting the Tombstalker doesn't provide much problems. It's actually the same decklist as in the opening post, the list that Ajsmirnov and Ultra are still playing (if I'm right).

You are totally right about Clique against Miracle. Changed that. The Nausea hoses TES tokens and dramatically slows down Maverick. It wrecks Hierarch, Bop, Arbor, Mom, Thalia, Mindcensor and (Safekeeper).

Boarding out counter against RUG is awkward indeed and I think this deck is better off taking out the Dreadnoughts (nullifying artifact hate) like Ajsmirnov and Ultra talk about. I just haven't got the time to test this yet.

Ajsmirnov;
Thanks for the play-tip. Wrecking duals is very strong! :wink:

I have replaced the 2 Reanimate with 2 Spell Pierce.
I think versus Reanimate, Sneaky and Omnishow, we can really use Spell Pierce. Reanimate seems a little much "win more" on paper. What do you guys think?

TES
-3 Snuff Out
-2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Vision Charm
3 Nausea
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce

Merfolk
-2 Daze
-2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Vendilion Clique

Tempo Thresh
-4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Vision Charm
-2 Force of Will
2 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict

Maverick
-4 Daze
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Vision Charm
3 Nausea
3 Perish

Reanimate
-2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
-4 Delver of Secrets
-1 Vision Charm
-2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique

UW Miracle
-2 Daze
-3 Snuff Out
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce

Sneaky/Omni-show
-2 Daze
-3 Snuff Out
-1 Vision Charm
-2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict

[ultra_a]

Merfolk
-2 Daze
-2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Vendilion Clique

1) match is awful, this sideboard wouldnt help, so you might try to break it somehow
2) in this case. on the play daze is mvp, discard is removal/counter to vial and 3cc is ok too, so remove FOW and bring cliques + edicts ( dot NOT counter vial, if you have delver + other flyer)
3) you might try to play EE in sb ( for 1 kills dorks + mother of runes, kills TES tokens, very consistent vs elves, kills lords, kills counterbalance)
4) on draw you bring out dazes ( because you can only after you turn2), keep fow, because of an extra card. maay be you can leave 1 daze and remove 1 ponder. If you draw daze on turn3+ its ok and you have no time to cast ponder early.



Maverick
-4 Daze
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Vision Charm
3 Nausea
3 Perish

Same thoughts. On play keep dazes and remove fow ( blue cards count decreases) with perishes and nauseas, you ruin their manabase and daze is by far the best. Bring in cliques and cast at their draw step.
I would prefer remove all and save vision charm to protect stalker. For extra pressure we play reanimate and its awesome.



Sneaky/Omni-show
-2 Daze
-3 Snuff Out
-1 Vision Charm
-2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict

Never board out dazes, their spells cost 3+ and even with tombs it is costly.
Consider, that edict works only against show and tell to emrakul. In any other case you would face 14+ card hand or free force of will / misdirection.
Then, omniscience doesnt rely on show and tell that much ( 4 burning wishes), so surgical extraction is mainly used after brainstorming in response to discard.
It cant ruin manabase either, so i think its rather weak
I would probably side-in only pierces, cliques and 2 edict for 3 snuff outs 2 kiras and ponder



Reanimate
-2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
-4 Delver of Secrets
-1 Vision Charm
-2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique

And finally, delver is the key card vs any combo. Its free pressure, that opens a capability to have spare mana in later turns.
Snuff Outs were rly awesome vs Jin-Jitaxias, but it cant kill griselbrand.
So +3 surgical +2 pierce +2 edict -1 island -1 charm -2 kira -1(2) ponder -1nought
-1(0) snuff out, depends on creatures

May be i'm wrong, but that' how i see it.

[Spigore]

Thanks a lot Ultra for checking and commenting!
I'm going to find some time and test some more, and see how -3 Nausea +3 Engineered Explosives turn out.

[claudio.r]

AJ Sacher played a version of this deck in the SCG invitational to a 16th place. Here's the decklist (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49605)

Kind of an original way to go with this, what is your opinion ?

[Spigore]

Man how I love this deck.
I played about 5 games vs each deck:
Sneakyshow, Hive Mind, RUG, Reanimate, UW Miracle.
Against all, going 4-1 except for UW Miracle: 3-2 (Jace landing on cleared board is a pain)

I think moving the Torpor Orb out of the main board and going for the 4th Daze and a Vision Charm (or Trickbind) is a good addition. There's more pitch to FoW, and because of the 4th Daze, a very strong early game.

Unfortunately, I could not test vs Goblins or Elves!
What are your latest lists? Mine is still the same as above, but with -2 Reanimate +2 Spell Pierce.

[kiblast]

Played a small tournament with some friends tonight. I went 4-2 in swiss, lost in top 4 top UW Miracle Blade.

R1: Merfolk win 2-0
R2: Dredge win 2-1
R3: UWr Miracle Blade loss 0-2
R4: BUGR Fish loss 0-2
R4: TES win 2-1
R5: Melira Persist combo win 2-0

Semi: 1-2 Loss to UWr Miracle Blade from turn 3.

How do you handle Miracle Blade? My sideboard was:

2 Needle
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Shrivel
2 Extirpate
2 Reanimate

I was usually siding out 1 Nought and 2 spot removals ( I was playing with 2 Snuff Out and 1 Dismember split maindeck) for 2 Needle and a Flusterstorm. Is Clique SO gamebreaking vs. them? I understand you take miracles and all, but is a very fragile creature anyway and I don't feel like she would deal any consistent amount of damage. I was not playing 2 Kira maindeck and maybe that would have made difference considering Jace bounce and Stp. Anyway is substantially impossible to mana screw or color screw them, and I find really difficult to understand what to side out. Was my sideboarding correct in your opinion? I was playing 2 Orb md and they were amazing stopping Clique Snap and Mystic, so I wouldn't side them out. Any thoughts regarding this matchup?

For ref, maindeck:

// NAME: Russian Airlines

4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [DDH] Island
1 [DDH] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [NPH] Torpor Orb
2 [MM] Snuff Out
1 [NPH] Dismember

Edit: one more thing. I was flooding so much with 19 lands that I happily sided out 1 Island for the second Flusterstorm during g2 and g3 in the semifinals. Maybe 1 Island can become a Preordain for aggressive deck digging and a more agile manabase?
Also: I don't think we need a basic swamp. Can easily be something else like Watery Grave or Darkslick Shores. We are mana hungry to be a tempo deck (as we always need te correct amount of blue and black mana for Stalkers, cantrips, etc...) so wouldn't another dual like land be better than Swamp? we shouldn't reach late game anyway, so any issues with B2B or Blood Moon or Waste lock can be ignored since by the time opponent resolves a B2B we should have something really big out anyway...

[dsck]

Played a small tournament with some friends tonight. I went 4-2 in swiss, lost in top 4 top UW Miracle Blade.

R1: Merfolk win 2-0
R2: Dredge win 2-1
R3: UWr Miracle Blade loss 0-2
R4: BUGR Fish loss 0-2
R4: TES win 2-1
R5: Melira Persist combo win 2-0

Semi: 1-2 Loss to UWr Miracle Blade from turn 3.

How do you handle Miracle Blade? My sideboard was:

2 Needle
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Shrivel
2 Extirpate
2 Reanimate

I was usually siding out 1 Nought and 2 spot removals ( I was playing with 2 Snuff Out and 1 Dismember split maindeck) for 2 Needle and a Flusterstorm. Is Clique SO gamebreaking vs. them? I understand you take miracles and all, but is a very fragile creature anyway and I don't feel like she would deal any consistent amount of damage. I was not playing 2 Kira maindeck and maybe that would have made difference considering Jace bounce and Stp. Anyway is substantially impossible to mana screw or color screw them, and I find really difficult to understand what to side out. Was my sideboarding correct in your opinion? I was playing 2 Orb md and they were amazing stopping Clique Snap and Mystic, so I wouldn't side them out. Any thoughts regarding this matchup?

For ref, maindeck:

// NAME: Russian Airlines

4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [DDH] Island
1 [DDH] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [NPH] Torpor Orb
2 [MM] Snuff Out
1 [NPH] Dismember

Edit: one more thing. I was flooding so much with 19 lands that I happily sided out 1 Island for the second Flusterstorm during g2 and g3 in the semifinals. Maybe 1 Island can become a Preordain for aggressive deck digging and a more agile manabase?
Also: I don't think we need a basic swamp. Can easily be something else like Watery Grave or Darkslick Shores. We are mana hungry to be a tempo deck (as we always need te correct amount of blue and black mana for Stalkers, cantrips, etc...) so wouldn't another dual like land be better than Swamp? we shouldn't reach late game anyway, so any issues with B2B or Blood Moon or Waste lock can be ignored since by the time opponent resolves a B2B we should have something really big out anyway...

You should probably aim for fast Dreadnought against them so siding 1 out seems bad. Theres 0 chance of winning a long game agains them so needles seem useless. Kira is bad against their sweepers, clique seems okay.

[kiblast]

You should probably aim for fast Dreadnought against them so siding 1 out seems bad. Theres 0 chance of winning a long game agains them so needles seem useless. Kira is bad against their sweepers, clique seems okay.

So you suggest to side just -2 spotremovals + 2 Clique and keep 4 Noughts, as well as aggressive mulligan into fast noughts?