Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

[Solaran_X]

Some recent threads on here and MTGS really got me thinking about this topic. Everyone seems to accept, without challenging the validity of, the reason for the limited support for Legacy being the Reserved, and that Legacy is destined to eventually die due to the Reserved List, and that Modern is supposed to be the Eternal format that is not bound to the Reserved List.

Is this really a legitimate reason, or is it something else?

I have begun analyzing results from the various SCG Legacy Opens, since they are the most frequent Legacy events that gather 100+ players on a regular basis (Memphis only had 94 people, oddly...yet Cincinnati had almost 300). I did notice one thing in common with the winning decks (which are widely varied from event to event, and seem to be a good random assortment that make good examples of their given types).

They all typically consist of 1% or less of cards from the Reserved List. A couple had a bit over 1% of the deck consisting of Reserved List cards. And aside from mana (IE - duals), it was almost rare to find a card on the Reserved List in the deck list.

The vast, vast majority of cards we play with in Legacy are not bound by the Reserved List. Aside from duals, there are very few Reserved List cards we'd consider staples - Moat and Tabernacle (which are rarely played anyways), Null Rod, Show and Tell, Humility, Meditate (rarely played anyways), Intuition, LED, Mox Diamond, City of Traitors, and Metalworker are the biggest. Some others are Replenish, Gaea's Cradle, Serra's Sanctum, Grim Monolith, Aluren, Abeyance, Firestorm, Undiscovered Paradise, and City of Solitude.

Including duals, that is 30 cards in the format that are semi-frequently played that are on the Reserved List. That is a very, very small portion of the commonly played Legacy cards - probably around or under 5% of the semi-frequently played card pool.

Is it really the Reserved List that is holding back Legacy...or is it something else?

[kombatkiwi]

Some recent threads on here and MTGS really got me thinking about this topic. Everyone seems to accept, without challenging the validity of, the reason for the limited support for Legacy being the Reserved, and that Legacy is destined to eventually die due to the Reserved List, and that Modern is supposed to be the Eternal format that is not bound to the Reserved List.

Is this really a legitimate reason, or is it something else?

I have begun analyzing results from the various SCG Legacy Opens, since they are the most frequent Legacy events that gather 100+ players on a regular basis (Memphis only had 94 people, oddly...yet Cincinnati had almost 300). I did notice one thing in common with the winning decks (which are widely varied from event to event, and seem to be a good random assortment that make good examples of their given types).

They all typically consist of 1% or less of cards from the Reserved List. A couple had a bit over 1% of the deck consisting of Reserved List cards. And aside from mana (IE - duals), it was almost rare to find a card on the Reserved List in the deck list.

The vast, vast majority of cards we play with in Legacy are not bound by the Reserved List. Aside from duals, there are very few Reserved List cards we'd consider staples - Moat and Tabernacle (which are rarely played anyways), Null Rod, Show and Tell, Humility, Meditate (rarely played anyways), Intuition, LED, Mox Diamond, City of Traitors, and Metalworker are the biggest. Some others are Replenish, Gaea's Cradle, Serra's Sanctum, Grim Monolith, Aluren, Abeyance, Firestorm, Undiscovered Paradise, and City of Solitude.

Including duals, that is 30 cards in the format that are semi-frequently played that are on the Reserved List. That is a very, very small portion of the commonly played Legacy cards - probably around or under 5% of the semi-frequently played card pool.

Is it really the Reserved List that is holding back Legacy...or is it something else?

It doesn't matter the percentage of deck, it matters how important the cards are to the overall strategy

Imagine you're playing RUG delver: Playing a game without obtaining mana from any dual land would be considered highly unusual (or even impossible, for some decklists), even if you're only playing 6 dual lands in the entire 60 card deck.

In the same vein, imagine trying to make a storm deck without LED - it would be crap.

It's not really an issue of card availability though - although this can and probably does limit the popularity of legacy as a format. It simply would be extremely bad business practice to heavily promote a tournament format that wizards can't print any more cards for.

While legacy decks still need their snapcasters etc, wotc isn't going to make any money off the sale of duals on the secondary market, so less of their energy is put into supporting formats affected by the reserved list.

When wizards was considering the possibility of getting rid of the reserved list a few years ago Stephen Menendian wrote a couple of good articles explaining why the list is bad news for eternal, I recommend you read them if you haven't already.

[GenioDeArena]

You said it yourself: DUALS
How can you build any non-monocolored deck without them?

[Solaran_X]

There is a replacement for duals, although many people consider themselves "better" than the alternative or "above" them.

I speak of the shocklands from Ravnica block.

Sure, they make certain aspects of the game significantly riskier if you play aggressively - such as breaking a fetchland into a Watery Grave to Thoughtseize on turn 1 (taking you to 15 life) instead of breaking a fetchland into an Underground Sea to Thoughtseize on turn 1 (taking you to 17 life). But if you play a bit slower and a bit more patiently, such as in a control deck or a deck like Stoneblade (where you have lifegain through Batterskull), would cracking a fetchland EOT for a Hallowed Fountain untapped be much different from cracking a fetchland EOT for a Tundra (assuming you aren't looking to Brainstorm EOT)?

Sure, a deck like UR Delver would definitely want Volcanic Islands over Steam Vents - it is a very fast, very aggressive deck. But a deck like UW Stoneblade...would it lose much by running Hallowed Fountain over Tundra? Or a deck like One Land Belcher - does it really matter if a Taiga or a Stomping Ground is used?

I think we, as players, are too accepting when we are told how much sway the Reserved List has over our beloved format. Sure, it has an impact - but WotC not reprinting duals or LEDs won't be the end of Legacy unless we let it be the end of the format.

[death]

Nothing is holding back legacy atm. Afaik, this format has already exploded. The real question out there is: If vintage is slowly dying, could it come back from the grave?

[JACO]

I disagree with your assesment that anything is holding Legacy back. All of the largest constructed Grand Prix events have been Legacy, which should signal that card availability is not as big of a concern as it is made out to be.

In regards to the Memphis SCG turnout being low, that was an abberation caused by a couple of factors (date and location, primarily). Most of the SCG Legacy events are in the realm of 150-300, which is very healthy for a Sunday tournament (when many people in town for the weekend will leave to head back home).

[dr.philgood]

would cracking a fetchland EOT for a Hallowed Fountain untapped be much different from cracking a fetchland EOT for a Tundra

It depends, what if they use the point where your shields are now down to swords your SFM, even though you had spell pierce in hand. How many games do you stabilize at around 3/5/7 or so assuming more then one shock land activation against burn/delver/zoo. Would it effect every match, no. People play vintage unpowered and underpowered, but generally powered decks win more consistently. It is a very similar situation when using underpowered mana bases in legacy.

What about Dual zoo vs Shock zoo who will win more often? yeah no questions there.

Perhaps with a control deck you could split 2/2 shock/dual and be fine most of the time. But if you really want to win a tournament will you?

[Beatusnox]

I disagree with your assesment that anything is holding Legacy back. All of the largest constructed Grand Prix events have been Legacy, which should signal that card availability is not as big of a concern as it is made out to be.


The issue is though, outside of huge events with giant prize support, turnouts are not that good, I know many players in my area that would cards be more readily available and affordable, they would be playing legacy right now, but cannot.

While I agree the format is exploding and I love the fact more people are playing it, I would rather this not turn into Vintage where it becomes:
Powered Decks
Null Rod based Decks








Other Decks that cannot have duals/power.
And at the rate prices are climbing I feel that sooner than later, we will get to that point.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

They all typically consist of 1% or less of cards from the Reserved List. A couple had a bit over 1% of the deck consisting of Reserved List cards. And aside from mana (IE - duals), it was almost rare to find a card on the Reserved List in the deck list.

It is mathematically impossible that anything but a Battle of Wits deck had 1%, much less than 1% Reserved cards.

I am also incredibly skeptical that only a couple decks ran more than 1 dual land, which would be 1.33% assuming you're counting the sideboard.

[Solaran_X]

It is mathematically impossible that anything but a Battle of Wits deck had 1%, much less than 1% Reserved cards.

I am also incredibly skeptical that only a couple decks ran more than 1 dual land, which would be 1.33% assuming you're counting the sideboard.
My math is off...dangers of doing math late at night at work. And I am now on OT, making that money to pay for my car I am going to start doing work on.

Few decks ran even 8 of the 75 as cards from the Reserved List. Most ran less than 6, and they were almost always duals (occasionally others such as Humility, Null Rod, and Show and Tell). I just saw the (let's say) 0.08 in my calculator and mistaking assumed it was 0.08%, not 8%.

I feel that it is not the Reserved List that is bottlenecking Legacy as we are led to believe, but moreso it's the belief of that bottleneck that is holding us back. As I said before, I feel that there are many decks that have nothing to lose by switching over to shocklands in lieu of duals - namely some of the combo decks and the slower control-style decks.

As for Vintage, I fear there is nothing that can be done to revive that format. Availability is a true issue in that format - even the Null Rod-based aggro decks still run an on-color Mox and Lotus frequently, and even if you lump together all the Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited Power...it is insignificant when compared to the Revised duals alone. While I would absolutely love to see a Vintage GP or something like a SCG Vintage Open...I know it is unrealistic because of the availability of Power. Although between the limited availability of Power and the printing of Grafdigger's Cage, I feel that a semi-level playing field for Vintage now exists on a larger scale - I am just worried that the Top 8s would frequently be Powered decks piloted by people with endorsements (such as SCG or CFB) and are supplied with Power by their endorsers, and as such would dissuade the other players. I would love to see Vintage rise to prominence again (in my city, we used to have weekly sanctioned Vintage events with a good half dozen Powered players and 20-30 semi-Powered and unPowered players during the Onslaught-era of Vintage), but I have to realistically accept that that is not going to happen.

[Dark Ritual]

Shocklands are strictly worse than ABU duals. Daze becomes a lot crappier. Thoughtseize taking you to 15 on turn 1? That's a quarter of your life total, the burn player is practically rejoicing since if shocklands became a mainstay of legacy burn would be a very powerful deck since I hear free lightning bolts that involve you watching your opponent fetch an untapped shockland are generally great for burn players and even storm players would love it. I know I would, I would love to not require a storm engine and just play out 7 cards into a tendrils after you get an untapped shock with a fetchland or just 2 shocks untapped. You can't make the argument that shocklands can replace revised duals because, again, they are strictly worse than the ABU dual lands.

And yes, the reserved list is holding back legacy. Legacy isn't a PTQ format because of the lack of supply of dual lands, because any multicolored deck in legacy runs some number of revised dual lands the minimum being 1 the max being 40 but generally 12 is the cap for the number of dual lands in a given deck and even that number is generous.

[Namida]

I feel that it is not the Reserved List that is bottlenecking Legacy as we are led to believe, but moreso it's the belief of that bottleneck that is holding us back. As I said before, I feel that there are many decks that have nothing to lose by switching over to shocklands in lieu of duals - namely some of the combo decks and the slower control-style decks.

Is your argument here that the issue with availability is actually just a perception issue because players can technically just play with suboptimal decks?

If I know that Taiga exists and is legal, then dying to my own Stomping Ground even once would piss me off so much that I'd quickly lose interest in playing. Your proposition does not address the reality that a player with shocklands is playing with inferior cards, nor the perception that playing with inferior cards/being unable to play exactly what you want is less fun for these players. I don't think it's any surprise that players find this unacceptable to an extent that they would opt not to even attempt to participate. Legacy isn't dying, but it is suffering in that there are a lot of people who would play if they had the ability to play exactly what they wanted to.

[dschalter]

The important thing to judge is what % of the cost consists of cards on the reserved list, no- absolute numbers aren't as relevant.

Let's look at the top 8 decks one at a time

Using deckstats.net

The MUD deck costs around 410 of which 203 is made up of reserved list cards.

Burn is 100% non-reserved list and costs around 120 dollars. Many have expressed doubts as to its viability.

The Elf deck costs around 180 and has no reserved list cards, though this list conspicuously lacks Gaea's Cradle, which is an expensive reserved list card.

The Junkblade (?) deck costs around 1220 of which 335 is made up of reserved list cards.

The Bant Stoneblade deck costs around 1180 of which 451 is made up of reserved list cards.

The RUG Tempo deck costs around 1350 of which 401 is made up of reserved list cards.

(Another Bant Stoneblade deck finished 7th)

The UW Blade deck costs around 1400 of which 396 is made up of reserved list cards.

It's also worth noting that it's far easier to pick up the non-reserved list cards. I can trade 15 dollars worth of standard legal cards for a Batterskull with ease; I'm not going to have a fun time trying to trade 60 dollars worth of standard cards for a 60 dollar dual land.

I might have forgotten that some cards were on the reserved list or made some calculation errors, but I don't these any of these numbers are that far off from reality.

[kombatkiwi]

Are there lots of people who dont currently play legacy but would if it was cheaper (let alone if it was a ptq format)? Yes

If wizards printed a bunch more dual lands, would it make legacy cheaper? Yes

Legacy is being held back by the reserved list in this sense.

[(nameless one)]

Personally, in quite dissappointed that I can't play Dutch Staxx. So yes, some decks are getting held back by the Reserved list.

[Einherjer]

Legacy is a hobby.
Hobbies are expensive.

[I am the brainwasher]

In regards to the Memphis SCG turnout being low, that was an abberation caused by a couple of factors (date and location, primarily). Most of the SCG Legacy events are in the realm of 150-300, which is very healthy for a Sunday tournament (when many people in town for the weekend will leave to head back home).

At the same time there were 2 GP's, something to keep in mind also.

Back to topic:

I just finished Canadian Threshold by buying the last missing pieces (4 Trops. Again, thx mates) and I completely agree upon the fact that the prices of cards do hold back people who are interested in playing Legacy.
The only cards I did own for the deck, back then when I decided to build it, were a playset of Forces, 6 Fetches and all commons required. The rest was completely up to me and even if I did quite a good job at getting most of the cards at a decent price, I sure had to invest an ammount of money that is not irrelevant for someone of my age/income.
Luckily, the format has a strong (supporting) community and enough players to run large events, but this doesn't negate the fact that if you want to play the format on a competetive level, you have to invest quite some money to have some sort of long-term ensurance to do so.
Budget-Decks like Dredge, Burn and Robots (Ascension?) for example are decent and fun to play but at some point you want more than that, especially when you want to compete at the higher tables constantly.
I am not one of those Legacy dinosaurs who were lucky enough to get twice (or more) the money out of their investment and and I definetly wouldn't call myself a good trader, but even I am a supporter for reprinting cards on the reserved list to ensure Legacy's future.

So yes, I think the format has a problem, but right now (and in the near future) this doesn't cause too much trouble, even if it will at some point.

[(nameless one)]

Legacy is a hobby.
Hobbies are expensive.

I know, my response was borderline trolling.

Honestly, you don't need Dual Lands to compete to this format. Outside of being dissappointed of not being able to play Dutch Staxx, I'm happy with what I choose to play. I love broken (albeit linear) decks.

[TsumiBand]

As long as they never print better lands than the Alpha duals, then yes, the Reserved List is holding the format back. I've taken my fair share of shockland-filled decks to Legacy events and to be blunt, it just fucking sucks going to 17 just to play the right thing on the first turn. And as much as I love seeing budget lists and things like Burn and Ascension showing up to Top 8 from time to time, I think increasing the appeal to people that enjoy being able to metagame well instead of just showing up with the one deck they could afford to put together can only increase the player base.

[Gheizen64]

As long as they never print better lands than the Alpha duals, then yes, the Reserved List is holding the format back. I've taken my fair share of shockland-filled decks to Legacy events and to be blunt, it just fucking sucks going to 17 just to play the right thing on the first turn. And as much as I love seeing budget lists and things like Burn and Ascension showing up to Top 8 from time to time, I think increasing the appeal to people that enjoy being able to metagame well instead of just showing up with the one deck they could afford to put together can only increase the player base.

This. Until Wizards print situationally better duals, Legacy will be greatly constricted by the price of its manabases.

[I am the brainwasher]

My suggestion is that they should print cards that reward you for having only 1 or less basic land type among lands you control.
Not only would that be a great thing flavour-wise, but also avoids that cards don't need to cost 3 black and 5 green to ensure that they don't get "abused".
Another upside would be that they aren't tempted to (re)create yet another lame 1.1 version of each manafixing land in existence.

[Backseat_Critic]

It seems like the only time I comment is during these "is legacy dying" discussions...

I'll play Legacy even if it stops being a popular format. It's strength has already dropped considerably since this time last year (at least by my perception). Before Mental Misstep it seemed like the sky was the limit, and everyone wanted in. Naturally, the prices went up. Luckily for me, I got the bulk of my cards before Legacy was popular, and I'll still play the format even if its just on kitchen tables.

The topic of prices/availability killing Legacy is a thorny issue. I can sympathize with people who don't want to drop X hours of work on a few pieces of cardboard. I can see that budgets are a constraint, but I will always advise people to try and take the long view.

If Legacy is really what you want, then take time to gather staples/decks. It's not like Standard; you don't need the cards before they rotate. They're not going anywhere. Take your time. Maybe start with forces and wastes, and play some merfolk. It may not be the best deck right now, but it will get your foot into the door as you piece together duals and get access to the 2-3 color tempo decks. This is just one path into Legacy (the one I'd recommend). Before you know it, you'll be dropping tropicals for goyfs. It just takes time to gather the pieces, but you don't need to rush it.

I don't think the constant cries for reprints, especially reserved list reprints, is going to get a big following from Wizards. Their official, corporate stance is that they do not make printing decision based on the secondary market, at least to reduce the price of expensive cards. It appears to me that they definitely do, and they manage this smartly.

Here's my observation. A retail store level product (set release, duel deck, premium, commander) can reprint a card that is worth up to 20 dollars. We have Graveborn (Entomb), Elspeth vs. Tezzeret (Elspeth). These were about 20-25 dollars during printing. Neither has grown or tanked significantly after the printing. The limited print run (FTVs) can go up to about 40-50 on a card. This has also been fairly predictable. (Please let me know if I missed something.) Finally, we have very small runs (Judge rewards) that can go above a 50 dollar reprint.

What does this mean? It just gives us a rough estimation of what we can expect from each release in terms of reprinted cards. We'll never see Jace or Goyf as anything but a rare promo. We might get wasteland in the new Realms. We'll probably see shocklands at some point either in a new set or something like commander.

I believe the reason these trends exist is because Wizards is actually very keen on the secondary market, but not for the reason players may think. Most players you talk to would prefer as many expensive reprints as possible to reduce the price of the game overall. They often cite the assertion that Wizards would also make a ton of money as a result.

Wizards is certainly a for profit company, and this logic is seductive. So why not put Black Lotus in M13 as a common? Wizards' wants as many people to play magic as possible in order make as much money possible. They also have an audience of game stores, and they can't be abandoned. More so than any individuals, these stores carry a ton of stock in Magic singles. They stand to lose the most if the secondary market crashes. When they lose, us players don't have a place to get the exact singles we crave for tournament decks. More importantly, we don't have the venues for even playing in these tournaments. Wizards needs the vendors, large and small, for its business model to work. Without your local game store, there are no tournaments, no places to buy singles, and no community. Wizards, wisely, does not want to sacrifice them to the altar of format accessibility for Legacy (or any other format).

If you're craving high priced reprints, its probably not going to happen. It might be a tough pill to swallow, but Wizards must be doing something right if the game is on an all time high. Enjoy it, and if you want to play the best format (Legacy) just understand that there is going to be some barrier to entry, but it is one worth breaking down.

Backseat Critic

[Octopusman]

I'm glad we can have this conversation without too much whining about the topic.

I am in the camp that thinks they can make more money in the long term by abolishing. I think the vendors will also make more in the long term.

I'm sure many of you know vendors who have had power or otherwise sitting in the case for a long time because they're hard to move.
With reprints, more people will buy the reprinted cards and more people will play the game/format in general.

More players = more money.

They don't need to make it standard legal or some bullshit like FTV. Just sell eternal packs where the cards are only legal in their respective formats.

Seems most stores would sell many many many more copies of the reprinted lotus to make up for the one beta copy they sold. People would still bust packs but consider how many people would buy the reprinted lotus as a single. The value would almost certainly blow away all of the money made selling Abu lotuses during the same time period. Make that money wizards, you morons.

If they can find the budget to print goddamned unhinged/unglued they can make an "Archives" series of sets.
The increased number of players to the game/eternal formats would make more money than the losses from the disgruntled player base and collectors IMO.

God have mercy on us all.

It's all fine and dandy to have an expensive hobby until there's no one to play with due to price barrier. RIP vintage.

[socialite]

Legacy is a hobby.
Vintage is expensive.

[Gheizen64]

It seems like the only time I comment is during these "is legacy dying" discussions...

I'll play Legacy even if it stops being a popular format. It's strength has already dropped considerably since this time last year (at least by my perception). Before Mental Misstep it seemed like the sky was the limit, and everyone wanted in. Naturally, the prices went up. Luckily for me, I got the bulk of my cards before Legacy was popular, and I'll still play the format even if its just on kitchen tables.

The topic of prices/availability killing Legacy is a thorny issue. I can sympathize with people who don't want to drop X hours of work on a few pieces of cardboard. I can see that budgets are a constraint, but I will always advise people to try and take the long view.

If Legacy is really what you want, then take time to gather staples/decks. It's not like Standard; you don't need the cards before they rotate. They're not going anywhere. Take your time. Maybe start with forces and wastes, and play some merfolk. It may not be the best deck right now, but it will get your foot into the door as you piece together duals and get access to the 2-3 color tempo decks. This is just one path into Legacy (the one I'd recommend). Before you know it, you'll be dropping tropicals for goyfs. It just takes time to gather the pieces, but you don't need to rush it.

I don't think the constant cries for reprints, especially reserved list reprints, is going to get a big following from Wizards. Their official, corporate stance is that they do not make printing decision based on the secondary market, at least to reduce the price of expensive cards. It appears to me that they definitely do, and they manage this smartly.

Here's my observation. A retail store level product (set release, duel deck, premium, commander) can reprint a card that is worth up to 20 dollars. We have Graveborn (Entomb), Elspeth vs. Tezzeret (Elspeth). These were about 20-25 dollars during printing. Neither has grown or tanked significantly after the printing. The limited print run (FTVs) can go up to about 40-50 on a card. This has also been fairly predictable. (Please let me know if I missed something.) Finally, we have very small runs (Judge rewards) that can go above a 50 dollar reprint.

What does this mean? It just gives us a rough estimation of what we can expect from each release in terms of reprinted cards. We'll never see Jace or Goyf as anything but a rare promo. We might get wasteland in the new Realms. We'll probably see shocklands at some point either in a new set or something like commander.

I believe the reason these trends exist is because Wizards is actually very keen on the secondary market, but not for the reason players may think. Most players you talk to would prefer as many expensive reprints as possible to reduce the price of the game overall. They often cite the assertion that Wizards would also make a ton of money as a result.

Wizards is certainly a for profit company, and this logic is seductive. So why not put Black Lotus in M13 as a common? Wizards' wants as many people to play magic as possible in order make as much money possible. They also have an audience of game stores, and they can't be abandoned. More so than any individuals, these stores carry a ton of stock in Magic singles. They stand to lose the most if the secondary market crashes. When they lose, us players don't have a place to get the exact singles we crave for tournament decks. More importantly, we don't have the venues for even playing in these tournaments. Wizards needs the vendors, large and small, for its business model to work. Without your local game store, there are no tournaments, no places to buy singles, and no community. Wizards, wisely, does not want to sacrifice them to the altar of format accessibility for Legacy (or any other format).

If you're craving high priced reprints, its probably not going to happen. It might be a tough pill to swallow, but Wizards must be doing something right if the game is on an all time high. Enjoy it, and if you want to play the best format (Legacy) just understand that there is going to be some barrier to entry, but it is one worth breaking down.

Backseat Critic

See, i agree with this. But if they abolish the reserve list, it's not like distributors would lose from it, quite the opposite. Injecting a small quantity of cards in the market make for massive demands, and who gain from those demands are mostly the retailers. We've seen already from FTV and whatsnot that the price of cards don't go down, at least i've not seen a single card vary in price too much. The only exception to this rule i've observed is SFM that was printed in a precon, and as such in very large numbers and its price has remained low whereas now would be much higher.
But that was a precon. As long as WotC inject small quantity of cards in the market, they can at least keep the cost constant while increasing the number of players. And everyone would gain more. New players would enter, retailers would gain from more packs sold, and collector wouldn't lose anything.

Maybe they wouldn't GAIN in the long term as much as before (the collectors), but considering the fact the player base would surely grow, i'm not even sure that would be the case at all.

The alternative (printing situationally better duals) would be far worse for collectors. Duals would tank in price extremely fast. If i were a collector, i'd prefer limited reprints than a possible destructive new print. That, or Legacy will inevitably lose players in the long run and possibly go the way of Vintage, duals are a bit too scarce to support a large playerbase already. And sadly i think this is the way Wizard choose, with the creation of Modern.

[Mr.C]

Guys, Modern was the death knell of Legacy. It's only a matter of time. See Vintage for reference. In five years, Legacy and Vintage will be similar.

[dschalter]

Guys, Modern was the death knell of Legacy. It's only a matter of time. See Vintage for reference. In five years, Legacy and Vintage will be similar.

Modern is an eternal format without any cards on the reserved list, so I don't see how you can argue that it's "modern and not the reserved list" that's the issue.

[SpikeyMikey]

There is a replacement for duals, although many people consider themselves "better" than the alternative or "above" them.

I speak of the shocklands from Ravnica block.

This is silly. Saying that you can play a strictly worse card than the best available card does not mean that playing a strictly worse card is in any way, shape or form acceptable. As Magic players, we do crazy things to eke out fractions of a percentage vs. our opponents. You can win even if you tap your mana wrong or play your threats in the wrong order, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't make an effort to hit the ideal lines of play.

I'm sure one of the Hatfields could D2 a Legacy GP with one of the newer precons like Graveborn, but that wouldn't make it a good idea for them to run it. Optimal is just that, optimal.

It's not really the reserved list that crushes the format. That's *a* root cause of the problem, but not the only one. The real problem is two-fold; price and power-creep.

I play Magic when I can borrow cards from Jaco. That means once in a while for major events, when I've got the money to shell out for hotel rooms and 6 hour car rides. I'm not going to show up to a little local tournament because I have no intention whatsoever of spending $1600 to buy a deck. I had one, last year. I sold it because $1400 in pocket was a hell of a lot more enticing than some little bits of cardboard. I'm not going to pigeon-hole myself into some shitty budget deck like Dredge or Affinity because it's cheap. I play this game for enjoyment. If I wanted to play cards to make money, I'd play poker. I can walk into a casino almost any night of the week and spend 2 hours at a $1/$2 no limit table and walk out $200-$300 up. Sometimes I'll lose, it happens, but on the whole, it's so far ahead of Magic in EV, there's not even a question. I just spent 8 hours playing in a PTQ today. I came in 13th, walked out with 9 packs of DKA. If I flip those at $2.50/ea. then I've lost $2.50 on 8 hours of my time. The only people making money on this game are the speculators and maybe the top 30-40 players worldwide.

Two, the power creep is a problem. Once games get swingy enough, people will quit. I've got a friend that wants me to get him into Magic; he quit Yu-gi-Oh! because he said it got stupid how ridiculous some cards were to beat. It's not even a matter of balance. A format can be balanced and still be too swingy, depending on the power disparity between various cards and the amount of time you have to find an answer before those cards kill you. Belcher is a great example. You have 0 turns to find an answer to Belcher before they beat you. You either have it in your opeining hand or it's irrelevant. Imagine if the whole format was like Belcher, but each one required a different strategy to beat. Did you correctly guess what your opponent is playing and mull for the right answers or did you guess wrong and lose? All the decks are around 50%, but it's no fun for anyone. becaise balanced is not the same as healthy. If they keep printing better mousetraps, eventually, Legacy will die because it will be such a coinflip format even after you spend half a dozen car payments on a deck that no one in their right mind will play it (I'm looking at you, Vintage enthusiasts).

[the Thin White Duke]

I think the major issue that Wizards faces when it comes to reprints is how to deliver the cards to the players. Let's say that Wizards releases an "Eternal" set (because they actually give a shit about what players want, and they understand that more cards = more players = more money) with a traditional booster approach. They put 15 cards representing a pool of staples and slap an MSRP of $3.99 because they want to get cards into players hands. The big issue is whether or not it is going to be possible for players to purchase packs for MSRP. (hint, it's not) Shop owners would likely hoard the packs/ open them and sell singles. Sure it will "flood" the market, but the immediate reaction is not going to lower prices. In fact, if the formats are really that popular then supply will catch up to demand quickly, but probably will not make an appreciable dent in prices. So in essence, Wizards wins, shop owners win, but do players really get what they want? It depends on what players want; to play the game or or to play with cheaper cards.
I've been playing for a while and when revised came out, I thought it was actually kind of cool that certain cards were not getting reprinted. I thought it would enhance the "flavor" of the game because if the game survived years down the road, there would only be a certain number of powerful cards representing these really powerful items or spells. What a dipshit I was. The secondary Magic market has become an investment opportunity instead of a game, and propped up by Wizard's ill-management of their intellectual property, i.e. the Reserve List. Every time some mouth piece from Wizards says "we don't care about the secondary market" it makes me laugh. If they're afraid of pissing off some speculators who have "struck it rich" in this market that they (Wizards) have let spiral out of control, at the expense of people who actually want to PLAY the game, then they're ignoring the fact the bubble has to burst someday. When people finally get sick of paying thousands of dollars for cardboard, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

[lochlan]

Wizards is certainly a for profit company, and this logic is seductive. So why not put Black Lotus in M13 as a common? Wizards' wants as many people to play magic as possible in order make as much money possible. They also have an audience of game stores, and they can't be abandoned. More so than any individuals, these stores carry a ton of stock in Magic singles. They stand to lose the most if the secondary market crashes.

LOL at a secondary market "crash" if WotC reprints expensive cards.

If Wizards reprints duals, these stores will make money. Sure, their white-border dual lands lose some percentage of their value (the supply of revised duals is ABUNDANT and the market is a bubble, revised had an enormous print run), but if the format becomes more accessible then more people will start playing and thus more eternal product gets moved through the store (on the whole) and the value of non-reprinted staples goes up.

Reprinting expensive cards--as long as the pacing is careful--is good for the eternal market. Reprinting dual lands mainly hurts speculators sitting on a ton them, but I don't care about them and neither should Wizards.

[Backseat_Critic]

See, i agree with this. But if they abolish the reserve list, it's not like distributors would lose from it, quite the opposite. Injecting a small quantity of cards in the market make for massive demands, and who gain from those demands are mostly the retailers. We've seen already from FTV and whatsnot that the price of cards don't go down, at least i've not seen a single card vary in price too much. The only exception to this rule i've observed is SFM that was printed in a precon, and as such in very large numbers and its price has remained low whereas now would be much higher.
But that was a precon. As long as WotC inject small quantity of cards in the market, they can at least keep the cost constant while increasing the number of players. And everyone would gain more. New players would enter, retailers would gain from more packs sold, and collector wouldn't lose anything.


I can see where you're coming from with this. It uses the sound logic that a larger player base equals more customers equals more sale equals more profit. What I think this model is missing is that creating a larger Legacy player base may not dramatically increase the size of the aggregate player base, and each player has finite money to spend on this hobby (hence the reason for this discussion). So just because Legacy is easier to get into, it doesn't mean that each individual player will spend more money in total.

I would conclude that it is in Wizard's best interest to look out for the stores in regards to their long and short term profitability. I don't know any rich game store owners, so I can't imagine their profit margins are that large. Also, I would be willing to bet that a good portion of their sales come from people selling them cards and other people buying them. The secondary market has to be a viable way to stay in business, and even a short term shake up could mean some stores will lose too much money to be viable.

Wizards gets the enviable position of being on top of a quasi pyramid scheme. They push this product out to retailers, but they rely on these stores to facilitate the game itself. If the stores don't feel they can't make money by offering Magic, they'll stop, which will in turn hurt Wizards.

Wizards has become great at keeping this machine working with the cards they decide to print and reprint. Drastic shifts in this system will likely produce negative consequences. Right now, everyone has a story about "the friend who would play Legacy, if only the costs were lower." Flooding the already delicate secondary card market with plentiful reprints may lead to the issue of "now I don't have a store nearby to buy cards and play."

Not being able to play a format due to availability and cost is not fun, but it is a situation that can be fixed at the individual level. If you want to play, pay the costs. If you don't want to pay, no one is forcing you. Trying to fix it with reprint policy changes would likely be the worse of two worlds.

Backseat Critic

[Backseat_Critic]

LOL at a secondary market "crash" if WotC reprints expensive cards.

If Wizards reprints duals, these stores will make money. Sure, their white-border dual lands lose some percentage of their value (the supply of revised duals is ABUNDANT and the market is a bubble, revised had an enormous print run), but if the format becomes more accessible then more people will start playing and thus more eternal product gets moved through the store (on the whole) and the value of non-reprinted staples goes up.

Reprinting expensive cards--as long as the pacing is careful--is good for the eternal market. Reprinting dual lands mainly hurts speculators sitting on a ton them, but I don't care about them and neither should Wizards.

Those 'speculators' are the big stores that run the big tournaments. Ask yourself what if starcity stopped running its open series? What if they stopped paying people to write columns? The belt tightening could produce some much more negative effects.

They are sitting on a ton of cards. It's like the stock market, which is also driven on speculation. They have a large number of 'dual land shares.' Tanking that 'stock' is going to hurt, even if it can be somewhat mitigated by the selling of reprints. They will make some margin on the reprints, but they invested thousands in the original duals that are now worth less than what they paid for them.

Imagine a hefty part of your own stock portfolio were to lose a significant amount of value. LOL, right?

Backseat Critic

[lochlan]

Dude, there is no way that the profitability of SCG's Open Series hinges on the price of the most expensive cards. If magic cards are like stocks then SCG has a very diverse "portfolio." And it is simply untrue that dual lands are a "hefty" volume of their stock. The price of white-border duals falling to even $0 would not break them--and, as I said earlier, could stimulate prices for other staples (assuming that it caused more people to enter the format, which I predict would be the case).

After all, just look at the SCG open series itself, adding more players makes all values rise.


but they invested thousands in the original duals

My understanding is that SCG created the open series to add value to their stock of eternal cards and that they made a ton of money as the series continued to increase Legacy's popularity. So it's not as if they started out by purchasing dual lands and other expensive staples at 2012 prices, these (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?s=Revised+Edition&c=Underground+Sea) things (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=tropical+island&d=0) used (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?s=Alliances&c=Force+of+Will) to (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=Tarmogoyf&d=0) be worth a lot less money just a few years ago.

But, seriously, forget that, because the (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=Kira%2C+Great+Glass-Spinner&d=0) real (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top&d=0) money (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=Volrath%27s+Stronghold&d=0) to be made for SCG was and is in the sub $20 cards, which move a lot faster on the whole. And SCG has dealt with cards (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=Phyrexian+Dreadnought&d=0) dropping (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=Vengevine&d=0) in (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=Baneslayer+Angel&d=0) price (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=Jace%2C+the+Mind+Sculptor&d=0) before, what's a few more?

Sorry, but the Legacy market as a whole simply does not rely on the most expensive cards holding their value. They are small fish in an ocean of cards.

[SpikeyMikey]

Those 'speculators' are the big stores that run the big tournaments. Ask yourself what if starcity stopped running its open series? What if they stopped paying people to write columns? The belt tightening could produce some much more negative effects.

They are sitting on a ton of cards. It's like the stock market, which is also driven on speculation. They have a large number of 'dual land shares.' Tanking that 'stock' is going to hurt, even if it can be somewhat mitigated by the selling of reprints. They will make some margin on the reprints, but they invested thousands in the original duals that are now worth less than what they paid for them.

Imagine a hefty part of your own stock portfolio were to lose a significant amount of value. LOL, right?

Backseat Critic

This is patently false. The big stores stand to gain if something major like the duals were reprinted. The speculators are individuals. Now, some of them happen to be pretty nice people (I'm thinking of Morbid- and Jaco), but with a few notable exceptions, I couldn't possibly give a fuck less about them.

Here's how the scenario works. You're a major company. You have to keep inventory of the product you sell because your customers don't want to keep inventory. That means that they're not going to put up with long lead times. Either you have the part in stock, or they buy somewhere else. But inventory, ANY inventory, is a waste of your money. That's money you could have invested in something useful. Instead, you've got it invested in something that's not accruing interest and in fact actually costs you money for the warehouse space and man-power necessary to manage that inventory. So the faster you move that inventory, the more liquid your position. And while not having the inventory means not making a sale, the closer to "just enough" that you can get - the less of your capital you have tied up in useless inventory - the happier you are, because you're maximizing your gains.

You don't want to sit on cards for long periods of times. You want something to come in and move right out the door again. Ideally, the moment anything touched your dock, you'd turn around and ship it out again. This concept is known as "turns". The company I work for, we shoot for 12 turns a year. That means, ideally, every month, we've turned our entire inventory. The stuff that came in at the end of January needs to be gone by the end of February. Some things turn faster, some slower, but that's our goal. And we're a stocking supplier. If you look at JiT (Just-in-Time) companies like Dell, they try and push their turns to the sub-day level.

I can't tell you what kind of turns Ben Bleweiss averages. But I can say with a fair degree of certainty that he measures his average turns in days. I'd be shocked if his average turn ever extended out past 2 weeks. Now there are going to be some items, mostly older things with limited play value, that are going to end up sitting for 3 months, but there are also going to be cards they're turning daily.

Why does this matter? Say the price of duals drops a dollar a day for 40 days. The speculator, who's holding on to the cards, just lost $40/ea. on those duals. The store, who has no illusions about stockpiling (because remember, inventory is a necessary evil) the shit out of some duals, is buying and selling every day. Yes, they lose a little bit off the profit of each dual, but since they're constantly selling out of their position and buying back in at a lower price, make up the difference in profit in volume. Rather than making 20 transactions at $15, they're making 22 at $14. Voila, profit!

Perhaps you weren't here for the original discussion, but SCG pushed hard for the repeal of the Reserved List. They stood to make a lot of money off it because Ben and Pete are intelligent businessmen.

[socialite]

I can see where you're coming from with this. It uses the sound logic that a larger player base equals more customers equals more sale equals more profit. What I think this model is missing is that creating a larger Legacy player base may not dramatically increase the size of the aggregate player base, and each player has finite money to spend on this hobby (hence the reason for this discussion). So just because Legacy is easier to get into, it doesn't mean that each individual player will spend more money in total.

I would conclude that it is in Wizard's best interest to look out for the stores in regards to their long and short term profitability. I don't know any rich game store owners, so I can't imagine their profit margins are that large. Also, I would be willing to bet that a good portion of their sales come from people selling them cards and other people buying them. The secondary market has to be a viable way to stay in business, and even a short term shake up could mean some stores will lose too much money to be viable.

Wizards gets the enviable position of being on top of a quasi pyramid scheme. They push this product out to retailers, but they rely on these stores to facilitate the game itself. If the stores don't feel they can't make money by offering Magic, they'll stop, which will in turn hurt Wizards.

Wizards has become great at keeping this machine working with the cards they decide to print and reprint. Drastic shifts in this system will likely produce negative consequences. Right now, everyone has a story about "the friend who would play Legacy, if only the costs were lower." Flooding the already delicate secondary card market with plentiful reprints may lead to the issue of "now I don't have a store nearby to buy cards and play."

Not being able to play a format due to availability and cost is not fun, but it is a situation that can be fixed at the individual level. If you want to play, pay the costs. If you don't want to pay, no one is forcing you. Trying to fix it with reprint policy changes would likely be the worse of two worlds.

Backseat Critic


Those 'speculators' are the big stores that run the big tournaments. Ask yourself what if starcity stopped running its open series? What if they stopped paying people to write columns? The belt tightening could produce some much more negative effects.

They are sitting on a ton of cards. It's like the stock market, which is also driven on speculation. They have a large number of 'dual land shares.' Tanking that 'stock' is going to hurt, even if it can be somewhat mitigated by the selling of reprints. They will make some margin on the reprints, but they invested thousands in the original duals that are now worth less than what they paid for them.

Imagine a hefty part of your own stock portfolio were to lose a significant amount of value. LOL, right?

Backseat Critic

I'm so happy you're back to chime in; always so correct regarding the subject of reprints. Level headed instead of utter nonsense whining that comes out of most people's mouths because they have to actually spend money on a hobby. :frown:

[majikal]

This is patently false. The big stores stand to gain if something major like the duals were reprinted. The speculators are individuals. Now, some of them happen to be pretty nice people (I'm thinking of Morbid- and Jaco), but with a few notable exceptions, I couldn't possibly give a fuck less about them.

Here's how the scenario works. You're a major company. You have to keep inventory of the product you sell because your customers don't want to keep inventory. That means that they're not going to put up with long lead times. Either you have the part in stock, or they buy somewhere else. But inventory, ANY inventory, is a waste of your money. That's money you could have invested in something useful. Instead, you've got it invested in something that's not accruing interest and in fact actually costs you money for the warehouse space and man-power necessary to manage that inventory. So the faster you move that inventory, the more liquid your position. And while not having the inventory means not making a sale, the closer to "just enough" that you can get - the less of your capital you have tied up in useless inventory - the happier you are, because you're maximizing your gains.

You don't want to sit on cards for long periods of times. You want something to come in and move right out the door again. Ideally, the moment anything touched your dock, you'd turn around and ship it out again. This concept is known as "turns". The company I work for, we shoot for 12 turns a year. That means, ideally, every month, we've turned our entire inventory. The stuff that came in at the end of January needs to be gone by the end of February. Some things turn faster, some slower, but that's our goal. And we're a stocking supplier. If you look at JiT (Just-in-Time) companies like Dell, they try and push their turns to the sub-day level.

I can't tell you what kind of turns Ben Bleweiss averages. But I can say with a fair degree of certainty that he measures his average turns in days. I'd be shocked if his average turn ever extended out past 2 weeks. Now there are going to be some items, mostly older things with limited play value, that are going to end up sitting for 3 months, but there are also going to be cards they're turning daily.

Why does this matter? Say the price of duals drops a dollar a day for 40 days. The speculator, who's holding on to the cards, just lost $40/ea. on those duals. The store, who has no illusions about stockpiling (because remember, inventory is a necessary evil) the shit out of some duals, is buying and selling every day. Yes, they lose a little bit off the profit of each dual, but since they're constantly selling out of their position and buying back in at a lower price, make up the difference in profit in volume. Rather than making 20 transactions at $15, they're making 22 at $14. Voila, profit!

Perhaps you weren't here for the original discussion, but SCG pushed hard for the repeal of the Reserved List. They stood to make a lot of money off it because Ben and Pete are intelligent businessmen.
This is the most intelligent post in the entire thread.

[CorpT]

This is the most intelligent post in the entire thread.

Agreed. When most of the playing population hates the reserve list and the largest store argues against the reserve list, I can't help but wonder who the people are arguing for the reserve list and what their motivation is.

[socialite]

Agreed. When most of the playing population hates the reserve list and the largest store argues against the reserve list, I can't help but wonder who the people are arguing for the reserve list and what their motivation is.

I know right, because people with opposite views than your whiner cry facing about paying money for a hobby clearly equals...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/48/DuckTales_%28Main_title%29.jpg/300px-DuckTales_%28Main_title%29.jpg

Caught me! Sitting on my inventory of 600 blue dual lands.

Or maybe some would rather not see this CCG go the way of others like Yugioh and Pokemon where nothing holds value.

As strongly as you feel about Legacy costing as little as possible for all parties involved I feel just as strongly that people should have to put in the same amount of effort as I did to get where I am. You cannot go through life expecting everything to be handed to you, you have to work for it. Do people really find this concept that unreasonable? Especially in regards to something as inconsequential for quality of life as a card game. Unfortunately Legacy is going to be out of the price range for some people just like everything else in life, this is the socioeconomic system we live in.

Edit: For the record I own literally zero dual lands. If I want to play Legacy I either borrow them or proxy them for smaller events at my LGS.

[CorpT]

Or maybe some would rather not see this CCG go the way of others like Yugioh and Pokemon where nothing holds value.

You mean like Tarmogoyf? Or Dark Confidant? Or Jace? Or Wasteland? Or Force of Will?

If your argument is that nothing will hold value unless it is on the reserve list, you should realize how wrong you are and that plenty of things hold (and increase) in value despite the fact that none of these cards are on the reserve list.

[socialite]

You mean like Tarmogoyf? Or Dark Confidant? Or Jace? Or Wasteland? Or Force of Will?

If your argument is that nothing will hold value unless it is on the reserve list, you should realize how wrong you are and that plenty of things hold (and increase) in value despite the fact that none of these cards are on the reserve list.

All of those have been reprinted right? Oh wait no they haven't excluding Wasteland which were both Foil and both small run player/judge rewards.

[dschalter]

All of those have been reprinted right? Oh wait no they haven't excluding Wasteland which were both Foil and both small run player/judge rewards.

Card prices should both rise and fall; complaining that game would become X if cards were reprinted is just dogmatism. And of course the point isn't that those cards haven't been reprinted, it's that those cards hold value even though people are 100% aware that they might be reprinted in some form.

[socialite]

Card prices should rise and fall both, cards on the reserved list can pretty only do the former. And of course the point isn't that those cards haven't been reprinted, it's that those cards hold value even though people are 100% aware that they might be reprinted in some form.

I disagree. Reserve list cards have done plenty of rise and fall over the years. Look at last summer's HYPE-APOCALYPSE with the SCG buy list etc.

Edit: Since you edited your entire post...


Card prices should both rise and fall; complaining that game would become X if cards were reprinted is just dogmatism. And of course the point isn't that those cards haven't been reprinted, it's that those cards hold value even though people are 100% aware that they might be reprinted in some form.

Except they do not, look at Stoneforge Mystic as a great example of the opposite of what you are saying. Edit: Elaboration - trucked along as a 25.00 card for quite a while, event deck news came out - tanked to shit before the product was even released and now is what 6.00?

Also I assumed we all understood that the removal of the reserved list would imply that the cards would be reprinted, else what would be the point, correct? So this changes the understanding that x card would be printed from a maybe to a positive which clearly in the case of Stoneforge Mystic carries much greater repercussions then "my Jace might be reprinted at some point later down the line".

[CorpT]

Except they do not, look at Stoneforge Mystic as a great example of the opposite of what you are saying. Edit: Elaboration - trucked along as a 25.00 card for quite a while, event deck news came out - tanked to shit before the product was even released and now is what 6.00?

You don't think that had anything to do being banned in both Standard and Modern? So should WotC not be allowed to ban cards because you bought already bought them and you want to retain your precious value?

[socialite]

You don't think that had anything to do being banned in both Standard and Modern? So should WotC not be allowed to ban cards because you bought already bought them and you want to retain your precious value?

I thought we were talking about Eternal Formats? The Source for Legacy?

Any other nit picky child responses you would like to post? I can run circles all day.

Personally I agree with JACO in that Legacy is doing quite well. I do not understand where all this resentment for the reserved list comes from and I can only assume it is for personal reasons like envy.

[Gheizen64]

I thought we were talking about Eternal Formats? The Source for Legacy?

Any other nit picky child responses you would like to post? I can run circles all day.

Personally I agree with JACO in that Legacy is doing quite well. I do not understand where all this resentment for the reserved list comes from and I can only assume envy.

You were talking about a specific card, he answered to that point. If you're not here to discuss, don't bother.

[socialite]

You were talking about a specific card, he answered to that point. If you're not here to discuss, don't bother.

No I do not believe it dropped solely because of the banning. There are plenty of cards banned in Standard and Modern that are center pieces for Legacy and Vintage that could potentially drop in a similar fashion if WoTC were allowed to reprint without restrictions.

[CorpT]

I thought we were talking about Eternal Formats? The Source for Legacy?

Any other nit picky child responses you would like to post? I can run circles all day.

So we should ignore Standard's effect on prices because this is a Legacy? I don't even understand what your point is.

How do you explain Mox Diamond's price? It has been reprinted and is on the reserve list and your precious value is relatively unchanged.

[CorpT]

Personally I agree with JACO in that Legacy is doing quite well. I do not understand where all this resentment for the reserved list comes from and I can only assume it is for personal reasons like envy.

I have a full 40 of duals. You claim to have zero. How is it envy if I am willing to see my own cards devalued.

[socialite]

So we should ignore Standard's effect on prices because this is a Legacy? I don't even understand what your point is.

How do you explain Mox Diamond's price? It has been reprinted and is on the reserve list and your precious value is relatively unchanged.

Clearly a format staple worthy of it's ludicrous price. Yes we should ignore the effect of Standard and Modern because most of the cards are no longer legal in those formats. It's a non factor, you could argue for Stoneforge but for the rest going forward, no. Did Jace tank after the banning? Not even close to the way Stoneforge did because Jace didn't get reprinted as a x2 in a 25.00 event deck at the same time.


I have a full 40 of duals. You claim to have zero. How is it envy if I am willing to see my own cards devalued.

Most arguments I see are "I cannot afford" "abolish the reserve list". Yeah there's exceptions people with large collections like JACO have held a similar stance to yours. Just because you have a set of duals doesn't mean 100% of the people with large collections feel the same way or agree with your charity.

[CorpT]

Clearly a format staple worthy of it's ludicrous price. Yes we should ignore the effect of Standard and Modern because most of the cards are no longer legal in those formats. It's a non factor, you could argue for Stoneforge but for the rest going forward, no.

So, to recap:

If a card is a format staple, reprinting it doesn't effect it's value, like Mox Diamond.

We should ignore Standard and Modern because most of the cards are not legal in those formats and so reprinting a card like Stoneforge Mystic affected the price, but not it being banned in those formats.

What about Chain Lightning? It used to be an $11 card. Now it's a $9 card. All because of that travesty known as reprinting. Those poor players who invested their hard earned money to buy $11 Chains only to see a loss of 2 whole dollars while they played with those cards for years. Terrible.

[socialite]

So, to recap:

If a card is a format staple, reprinting it doesn't effect it's value, like Mox Diamond.

We should ignore Standard and Modern because most of the cards are not legal in those formats and so reprinting a card like Stoneforge Mystic affected the price, but not it being banned in those formats.

What about Chain Lightning? It used to be an $11 card. Now it's a $9 card. All because of that travesty known as reprinting. Those poor players who invested their hard earned money to buy $11 Chains only to see a loss of 2 whole dollars while they played with those cards for years. Terrible.

I was being sarcastic about Mox Diamond being a format staple. I do not consider it to be. Rather my point was you pulling corner cases with arguably limited play and functionally outdated and power creep-ed cards is a waste of time.

We should ignore Standard and Modern. Jace and Stoneforge were banned at the same time, only one utterly tanked in price and failed to recover - the one that was reprinted at the same time.

Chain Lighting? See Mox Diamond.

[I am the brainwasher]

[
Legacy is a hobby.
Hobbies are expensive.

If you did agree upon that fact, why you then bother on prices changing at all?
You are constantly contradicting your own statements which makes it somewhat hard to follow what you are trying to say.
No personal insult intended, but it seems you try to charade your twisted feelings about investment and the game as a hobby behind nonsense arguments... .

[lyracian]

The reserved list has no place in a game. Hobbies can be expensive but if I am buying gear for scuba diving or rock climbing at least I feel I am getting value for money. $100 for a piece of cardboard? It is not like it is an oil painting.

I play Legacy rather than Modern because I already have my manabase (duals) from when they were in boosters and resent the idea of spending money on more lands (Shocks, Scars Duals) that do not add anything new to my decks. I do not mind spending a bit of money on spells since they actually do something new and interesting. Lands, while actually being the backbone of a deck, are not what players want to be spending cash on.

I think it is just those ten dual land cards on the reserved list that is holding Legacy back. A few cards like Null Rod, Moat & Tabernacle would be more widely used if available but I do not think that would make a large shift in the meta.

[SpikeyMikey]

The fact that we continually have this argument points to the idea that there is something wrong. But here's the thing. This is just a waste of time. A bit of mutual masturbation. The reason that the two camps cannot agree on a verdict on the Reserved List is because we are working from different premises.

It is my opinion that Magic: the Gathering is, first and foremost, a game. Everything else takes a backseat to that. Flavor, collectibility, everything. I am involved in Magic because I enjoy the intellectual contest. And from that starting point, it is impossible not to be in favor of the abolishment of the Reserved List and a reprinting of overly expensive cards. It has never been and will never be my desire to beat someone simply because I have deeper pockets than them. If the cards were all available direct from Wizards as singles at $0.10 each, I would enjoy the game more because the general level of competitiveness as a whole would rise. It is also my opinion that the cards have value only because of the game aspect. These aren't baseball cards where people collect their favorite player/team. There are people that collect complete sets, but honestly, if there were no game attached to these cards, they'd be worth less than the paperboard they're printed on. To my mind, that cements the idea that the game comes first and that anything collectors and flavor enthusiasts get out of the game is simply icing on the cake.

But some people don't feel that Magic should be considered a game first and everything else second. Mark Rosewater, for example, is far more concerned with flavor than he is with actual gameplay. I think MaRo is an idiot and that he shouldn't be in charge of development, but he is entitled to his opinion, same as I'm entitled to mine. His just happens to carry more weight with the powers that be. Some people feel that collectibility is first. They stress that it's a *collectible* card game. Those people want the cards to continually ramp in value, so that they feel like they're getting some investment out of their collection.

Until we come to an agreement on which aspect of the game is most important, we cannot begin to approach an agreement on what conclusions to draw. Since the premise each camp works under is a highly personal and relatively immutable thing, there's really no point in arguing it. Honestly, the only reason I've stuck my head in here is to try and correct faulty logic.

I would like to note with glee, however (since I'm feeling a little petty), that Ertai's posted right after me talking about how great and levelheaded Backseat's post was, displaying a complete ignorance of business fundamentals on both of their parts. Then he completely ignored my post for the rest of the thread, since he couldn't argue with it and it wasn't evidence of his point of view. It was almost Christian-like. I lol'd.

[UseLess]

It is my opinion that Magic: the Gathering is, first and foremost, a game. Everything else takes a backseat to that. Flavor, collectibility, everything. I am involved in Magic because I enjoy the intellectual contest. And from that starting point, it is impossible not to be in favor of the abolishment of the Reserved List and a reprinting of overly expensive cards. It has never been and will never be my desire to beat someone simply because I have deeper pockets than them. If the cards were all available direct from Wizards as singles at $0.10 each, I would enjoy the game more because the general level of competitiveness as a whole would rise. It is also my opinion that the cards have value only because of the game aspect. These aren't baseball cards where people collect their favorite player/team. There are people that collect complete sets, but honestly, if there were no game attached to these cards, they'd be worth less than the paperboard they're printed on. To my mind, that cements the idea that the game comes first and that anything collectors and flavor enthusiasts get out of the game is simply icing on the cake.


This and nothing more. I would love to see each card being 50 cent so I and my friends could all play the format and game we like, testing new decks to beat the competition. I'm not going to spend $100 on some silly blue dual, even though I could. I feel this is a shame because it limits the card pool of individual players and therefore limiting their creativity and competitivity. I don't give a crap about stockholders and such. In the Netherlands tournaments are organized by local stores and local gamers, so there is no such thing as SCG involved. Sure, my collection would be worth less, but why should I care? After all it is a hobby, so it is about having fun, not the amount of money you put in or get back...

[aahz]

If the cards were all available direct from Wizards as singles at $0.10 each, I would enjoy the game more because the general level of competitiveness as a whole would rise.

After all it is a hobby, so it is about having fun, not the amount of money you put in or get back...
Incidentally, I would probably have way less fun playing if Eternal cards were really cheap. One of the reasons that I enjoy the Eternal formats (Vintage, Legacy) is that they require a big buy-in (either in time or money). Quite frankly, it keeps the riff-raff away. I'm sure I'll get attacked and called an elitist snob, but I don't care. I don't have much fun playing against the majority of Magic players. They are rude, annoying, stupid, and/or smelly. I love Magic, but I don't like (or want to be around) most of the other people that flock to the game. I've noticed a trend about this though. The people that have the cards to play Legacy and Vintage (even with some proxies) tend to be much more enjoyable to be around and to play with compared with people who play the other formats. My feeling is that this is because you can't really play these formats without some investment in it (also, the crowd tends to be older and more mature).

I think that you should have to "pay your dues" to play Eternal formats. I don't want to play with people who don't know the rules, don't take the game seriously, and are not invested in the game. Having all the cards be inexpensive cheapens the whole enterprise. If all the cards only cost $0.10 each, you'd end up with the same crap you get on MWS where people don't even know the rules/what cards do. I'm not saying that the Reserve List is a good idea (it's not) or that all cards should be infinitely expensive (the current price of duals is ridiculous), but I think people should have to spend some money and do some legwork for the privilege of playing formats like Vintage and Legacy. Unfortunately, assholes with money can still afford to buy-in and some people who would bring a lot to the game and be fun to play with can't get their foot in the door due to the up front costs (either in time or money).

The current system is not ideal, but neither is cheap copies of every card for all. I'd love to find some way to keep the buy-in reasonable enough that people who really want to play can, but still have it high enough that the jerks, little kids, and idiots don't bother. (Note: I'm not saying that youngsters shouldn't be able to play, just that they should have to work their way up to formats like Legacy and Vintage in most cases).

[SpikeyMikey]

Incidentally, I would probably have way less fun playing if Eternal cards were really cheap. One of the reasons that I enjoy the Eternal formats (Vintage, Legacy) is that they require a big buy-in (either in time or money). Quite frankly, it keeps the riff-raff away. I'm sure I'll get attacked and called an elitist snob, but I don't care. I don't have much fun playing against the majority of Magic players. They are rude, annoying, stupid, and/or smelly. I love Magic, but I don't like (or want to be around) most of the other people that flock to the game. I've noticed a trend about this though. The people that have the cards to play Legacy and Vintage (even with some proxies) tend to be much more enjoyable to be around and to play with compared with people who play the other formats. My feeling is that this is because you can't really play these formats without some investment in it (also, the crowd tends to be older and more mature).

I think that you should have to "pay your dues" to play Eternal formats. I don't want to play with people who don't know the rules, don't take the game seriously, and are not invested in the game. Having all the cards be inexpensive cheapens the whole enterprise. If all the cards only cost $0.10 each, you'd end up with the same crap you get on MWS where people don't even know the rules/what cards do. I'm not saying that the Reserve List is a good idea (it's not) or that all cards should be infinitely expensive (the current price of duals is ridiculous), but I think people should have to spend some money and do some legwork for the privilege of playing formats like Vintage and Legacy. Unfortunately, assholes with money can still afford to buy-in and some people who would bring a lot to the game and be fun to play with can't get their foot in the door due to the up front costs (either in time or money).

The current system is not ideal, but neither is cheap copies of every card for all. I'd love to find some way to keep the buy-in reasonable enough that people who really want to play can, but still have it high enough that the jerks, little kids, and idiots don't bother. (Note: I'm not saying that youngsters shouldn't be able to play, just that they should have to work their way up to formats like Legacy and Vintage in most cases).
Is the reason for a better crowd in Eternal formats the price or the formats themselves? Because I've been playing Modern a ton lately and the format, while fun because of the untuned metagame, is not nearly as complex or thought-provoking as Legacy.

[kwelts]

We should ignore Standard and Modern. Jace and Stoneforge were banned at the same time, only one utterly tanked in price and failed to recover - the one that was reprinted at the same time.

both cards tanked in price.

stoneforge went from 25 doen to 10. the reprinting brought it to 6 i think.

jace went from 120 down to 65 IIRC.

[Einherjer]

[

If you did agree upon that fact, why you then bother on prices changing at all?
You are constantly contradicting your own statements which makes it somewhat hard to follow what you are trying to say.
No personal insult intended, but it seems you try to charade your twisted feelings about investment and the game as a hobby behind nonsense arguments... .

Sorry, I will explain it in a better way.

I agree with aahz, concerning the buy-in price. I wouldnt not enjoy it either to play with people who bought their deck for 10€. I like the prices as they are somewhat of a goal you can work to (I own 10 blue Duals). And as said Legacy is a hobby. It takes time, money and some love for this format to get into - and this is the way it should be.

A little story....:
Im hosting Local Tourneys at nearby city. First I was alone, then I was looking to all playgroups and visited all tournaments to be held in this city. Then I told everyone I was building up a Legacy-Scene and in no time a few of old time players joined me, making us 6 people. Our first tournament had 8 people, where the 2 guys without decks did NOT use proxies - they used the decks we had left. After I took home the first tournament with my BW Deadguy I started to love Legacy more and more and sold this deck in order to buy the blue pool. Over time we have 14 players with decks and 6-10 people whithout. But they still play with us - because we always have some nonblue decks to give away.

Even though a few of you might argue now that I would have 24 active players if the cards were cheaper, I like it the way it is now. Because the players without decks spend alot of time in forums/internetmagic to train and this way we have a healthy little metagame. We like Legacy the way it is.

Greetings

[lyracian]

Incidentally, I would probably have way less fun playing if Eternal cards were really cheap. One of the reasons that I enjoy the Eternal formats (Vintage, Legacy) is that they require a big buy-in (either in time or money). Quite frankly, it keeps the riff-raff away. I'm sure I'll get attacked and called an elitist snob, but I don't care.Snob! :laugh:

Seriously though I agree that a lot of MTG players are the great unwashed with trash decks.
This and nothing more. I would love to see each card being 50 cent so I and my friends could all play the format and game we like, testing new decks to beat the competition. I'm not going to spend $100 on some silly blue dual, even though I could.While 50c would make getting card easy I think that is unrealistic. If duals were $25 you could get a playset for a reasonable $100, maybe $90, and build a decent deck.


Even though a few of you might argue now that I would have 24 active players if the cards were cheaper, I like it the way it is now. Because the players without decks spend alot of time in forums/internetmagic to
Surely more dedicated players is better? You can build infect and Pox decks for $50 and look at the success of Burn at two SCG for a well performing $100-150 deck.

[Occam]

I honestly don't care strongly if the reserve list were abolished. My vote has always been for judicious reprints. Let's just not forget that the reason a lot of prices are the way they are right now is due to people triggering a self-fulfilling prophecy whenever the slightest bit of information validates a certain outlier. There is no cabal of collectors waiting to take over the game.



Here's how the scenario works. You're a major company. You have to keep inventory of the product you sell because your customers don't want to keep inventory. That means that they're not going to put up with long lead times. Either you have the part in stock, or they buy somewhere else. But inventory, ANY inventory, is a waste of your money. That's money you could have invested in something useful. Instead, you've got it invested in something that's not accruing interest and in fact actually costs you money for the warehouse space and man-power necessary to manage that inventory. So the faster you move that inventory, the more liquid your position. And while not having the inventory means not making a sale, the closer to "just enough" that you can get - the less of your capital you have tied up in useless inventory - the happier you are, because you're maximizing your gains.

You don't want to sit on cards for long periods of times. You want something to come in and move right out the door again. Ideally, the moment anything touched your dock, you'd turn around and ship it out again. This concept is known as "turns". The company I work for, we shoot for 12 turns a year. That means, ideally, every month, we've turned our entire inventory. The stuff that came in at the end of January needs to be gone by the end of February. Some things turn faster, some slower, but that's our goal. And we're a stocking supplier. If you look at JiT (Just-in-Time) companies like Dell, they try and push their turns to the sub-day level.

I can't tell you what kind of turns Ben Bleweiss averages. But I can say with a fair degree of certainty that he measures his average turns in days. I'd be shocked if his average turn ever extended out past 2 weeks. Now there are going to be some items, mostly older things with limited play value, that are going to end up sitting for 3 months, but there are also going to be cards they're turning daily.

Why does this matter? Say the price of duals drops a dollar a day for 40 days. The speculator, who's holding on to the cards, just lost $40/ea. on those duals. The store, who has no illusions about stockpiling (because remember, inventory is a necessary evil) the shit out of some duals, is buying and selling every day. Yes, they lose a little bit off the profit of each dual, but since they're constantly selling out of their position and buying back in at a lower price, make up the difference in profit in volume. Rather than making 20 transactions at $15, they're making 22 at $14. Voila, profit!

Perhaps you weren't here for the original discussion, but SCG pushed hard for the repeal of the Reserved List. They stood to make a lot of money off it because Ben and Pete are intelligent businessmen.


Oh, and this? If you have any interest or knowledge in JIT or about carry in manufacturing and financial markets respectively, don't apply the two concepts to magic as above. Thank you.

[bruizar]

I don't think healing salves turn in 3 months.

[millerd33]

IMO the secondary market is what drives this game. If these cards did not increase in value the game would not be where it is right now. Knowing that at any time you can sell off your collection and get some/most/all/more of the money you put into the game is what keeps the players at the local store and the large tournies that they would have to travel to.

My problem if they did take away the reserve list is... As a company they gave a promise to their players as well as their venders that these cards would not be reprinted. People have acted accordingly. ie picking up some cards faster before they went up in price or traded pre rotation cards to websites/dealers targeting cards on the reserve list to retain the value they have put into the game. If one day they say the reserve list is going away how can you have any faith in anything that comes out of their mouth?

I have bought and sold my way in and out of this game many times over the years. Each time I worked to get the cards I wanted back and paid the costs that go along with it. The cost of the cards are what they are for a reason. Someone in the market is willing to pay it. It is not where these cards are not able to be gotten. Just because you (on one specific) don't like the price of the card does not mean that it should be reprinted so you can afford it. There are many things in life I want that I cannot afford right now. I work, save and plan to figure out how to attain the things I want.

Wizards is in a tough position because they have to appeal to both sides of the market, The player as well as the collector (many are both).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

IMO the secondary market is what drives this game. If these cards did not increase in value the game would not be where it is right now. Knowing that at any time you can sell off your collection and get some/most/all/more of the money you put into the game is what keeps the players at the local store and the large tournies that they would have to travel to.

My problem if they did take away the reserve list is... As a company they gave a promise to their players as well as their venders that these cards would not be reprinted. People have acted accordingly. ie picking up some cards faster before they went up in price or traded pre rotation cards to websites/dealers targeting cards on the reserve list to retain the value they have put into the game. If one day they say the reserve list is going away how can you have any faith in anything that comes out of their mouth?

Yes. Because were are not flailingly helpless and unable to discern context in life, so we can say that a company getting rid of an obviously harmful policy that people who worked at the company over a decade ago setup doesn't mean that tomorrow they're going to make the Moxen commons in the next block.


I have bought and sold my way in and out of this game many times over the years. Each time I worked to get the cards I wanted back and paid the costs that go along with it. The cost of the cards are what they are for a reason. Someone in the market is willing to pay it. It is not where these cards are not able to be gotten. Just because you (on one specific) don't like the price of the card does not mean that it should be reprinted so you can afford it. There are many things in life I want that I cannot afford right now. I work, save and plan to figure out how to attain the things I want.

Wizards is in a tough position because they have to appeal to both sides of the market, The player as well as the collector (many are both).

The vast majority of the market isn't covered by the Reserve list, and both players and collectors seem happy with it. For that matter, nothing's covered in MODO and that's still a thriving community. Your ideas of what provide consumer confidence in a company are obviously flawed and show no real correlation with reality.

And people wanting access to Legacy cheaper is in fact a very good reason that Wizards should make that possible.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also, I've talked about this before but some people seem to have a really fucked up idea of what "collectibility" means. Collectibles gain value because of where and when and how they were printed/made and in what quantities.

Like, a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle does not become less valuable because newer Mickey Mantle cards are printed. A 1938 Action Comics #1 doesn't lose its value because the first Superman comic gets reprinted in some new compilation work.

That's because the value of those goods lies in their collectibility. But the value of dual lands doesn't lie in their collectibility, at least for white-bordered; it relies on their utility.

So arguing that Wizards has a duty to protect the collectible value of dual lands by not printing newer ones is, frankly, stupid. Newer duals can't affect the price of old duals due to collectibility.

Also:


Personally I agree with JACO in that Legacy is doing quite well. I do not understand where all this resentment for the reserved list comes from and I can only assume it is for personal reasons like envy.

This is a flagrant attempt to poison the well by associating any effort to identify and suggest solutions to a problem with negative connotations like whining, envy, resentment, etc..

It's petty and inane and if you can't participate in the conversation honestly, you would do better to just not bother at all.

[Koby]

IMO the secondary market is what drives this game. If these cards did not increase in value the game would not be where it is right now. Knowing that at any time you can sell off your collection and get some/most/all/more of the money you put into the game is what keeps the players at the local store and the large tournies that they would have to travel to.

My problem if they did take away the reserve list is... As a company they gave a promise to their players as well as their venders that these cards would not be reprinted. People have acted accordingly. ie picking up some cards faster before they went up in price or traded pre rotation cards to websites/dealers targeting cards on the reserve list to retain the value they have put into the game. If one day they say the reserve list is going away how can you have any faith in anything that comes out of their mouth?

I have bought and sold my way in and out of this game many times over the years. Each time I worked to get the cards I wanted back and paid the costs that go along with it. The cost of the cards are what they are for a reason. Someone in the market is willing to pay it. It is not where these cards are not able to be gotten. Just because you (on one specific) don't like the price of the card does not mean that it should be reprinted so you can afford it. There are many things in life I want that I cannot afford right now. I work, save and plan to figure out how to attain the things I want.

Wizards is in a tough position because they have to appeal to both sides of the market, The player as well as the collector (many are both).

You have a very distorted view of the concept of Demand. When Jon Finkel picks up a deck like Napster, and the swath of Finkel-fans decide to emulate his success by buying Thrashing Wumpus in droves - this is what Demand is.

Having consumer confidence that Thrashing Wumpus is going to be worth $0.25 more tomorrow is not, in fact, Demand.

Supply is the other side of the coin; and all aside from a small percentage of Magic cards are affected by Supply-side issues. The largest effect on prices due to Supply are generally regional shortages. This usually occurs when there's a large tournament with a high demand for token singles (dual lands, Thrashing Wumpus etc) or when dealers are buying the cards with an unusually high price (cornering the market).

The secondary market for MTG has little to no effect on the Demand of singles however. Conversely, the demand has a huge effect on its price. This in turn means only one thing:

The game aspect of 'Magic: the Gathering' is more important to the consumers of the product than its collectibility.

[millerd33]

When these cards we are talking about were printed this game was Magic: The Gathering CCG. They have now changed it to TCG.

If Magic was not collectible then why would off cut cards or rare oddball cards go for so much month to who? The collector... They are out there and in numbers. Just because they don't post on forum pages or show up at the tournies or LGS doesn't mean they are not out there and spending Big money on new and old product.

That' 1952 Mantle vs a BSG 10 beta lotus... Both equally as collectible.
That 150 dollar 2010 1 of 1 printing plate Robinson Cano vs revised underground sea... Both equally as collectible.

As for faith in a company to stand by a policy they make. That may not be what you chose as a marker for consumer confidence. For me it is a rather large statement about future policies they could make.

[CorpT]

When these cards we are talking about were printed this game was Magic: The Gathering CCG. They have now changed it to TCG.

If Magic was not collectible then why would off cut cards or rare oddball cards go for so much month to who? The collector... They are out there and in numbers. Just because they don't post on forum pages or show up at the tournies or LGS doesn't mean they are not out there and spending Big money on new and old product.

That' 1952 Mantle vs a BSG 10 beta lotus... Both equally as collectible.
That 150 dollar 2010 1 of 1 printing plate Robinson Cano vs revised underground sea... Both equally as collectible.

As for faith in a company to stand by a policy they make. That may not be what you chose as a marker for consumer confidence. For me it is a rather large statement about future policies they could make.

You completely missed the point.

What he's saying is that an off-cut Dark Rit is still worth a lot of money even though it's been printed many times. Why? Because off-cut is desirable. Ok. Beta Duals are desirable both because they have collectibility and usefulness. If they re-printed duals, the new ones would not be collectible, but they would still be useful. This would not impact the collectibility of beta duals.

[millerd33]

Would it impact the value and thus the collectibility of white border duals?

I want to play vintage. They should reprint the power 9 so I can get into the format I want to play in.

[Koby]

Would it impact the value and thus the collectibility of white border duals?

I want to play vintage. They should reprint the power 9 so I can get into the format I want to play in.

Hi There! Looks like you're from Pennsylvania. Can you direct me to sanctioned Vintage events in the greater <East Coast> area?

Oh, none exist? Fine, play with 10 proxies.

EDIT: addressing the first part - I suspect that the white border Revised duals have low collectible value and high playability. This is mostly the due to the direction that WotC made with 10th Edition - no more white borders. I don't think that given an option between WB and BB (say, reprinted) duals players would flock to WB versions; even if they look atrocious. Yes, their price would reflect the increase fungible supply. Again, this goes back to "play" over "collectible" argument.

[millerd33]

If they reprinted the Power then there would be events at LSG. There is actually a thriving vintage meta game in the north east.

[Koby]

If they reprinted the Power then there would be events at LSG. There is actually a thriving PROXY vintage meta game in the north east.

ftfy

I don't see many sanctioned Vintage events in the USA outside of Vintage Champs.

Also,
"If they reprinted Tarmogoyf then there would be Modern events at <everywhere>"
"If they reprinted $1000 bills then there would be people who buy them up"

[millerd33]

I went to the local PROXY vintage tourny at my local store and what do ya know... of the 30+ players most used real power. If they reprinted the power there would be more vintage events.

This is all off topic and I don't want to get into an argument. My post was my opinion and I stand by it.

To recap:
Secondary Market drives the game.
Company made a promise not to reprint the cards on the reserve list
I worked hard to get the cards needed to play the format I wanted to play in.
It is not easy for wizards to cater to both the player and the collector sides of the game.

[CorpT]

To recap:
Secondary Market drives the game.
Company made a promise not to reprint the cards on the reserve list
I worked hard to get the cards needed to play the format I wanted to play in.
It is not easy for wizards to cater to both the player and the collector sides of the game.


This is what I don't understand, so, please, help me understand. You would rather have your cards that you worked hard for retain their value than bigger/more frequent tournaments? Even when this value is not guaranteed to go down dramatically if they reprint them.

[millerd33]

One of the things about legacy that drew me into it was the fact that you get an older crowd playing it (34 here).

That barrier to entry keeps some younger immature players out of the format. At this stage in my life with a wife and child I am more then happy with the 30ish man tournies at my lgs and testing with my buddies on the weekends..

Edit: I also that my cards retain the value through trading cards that are about to rotate into reserve list cards. If dual lands are reprinted in any meaningful way to get them into more players hands how would this not effect the price?

[CorpT]

One of the things about legacy that drew me into it was the fact that you get an older crowd playing it (34 here).

That barrier to entry keeps some younger immature players out of the format. At this stage in my life with a wife and child I am more then happy with the 30ish man tournies at my lgs and testing with my buddies on the weekends..

So.... because you don't want to play with younger kids, you would argue in favor of preventing everyone from getting reprints? That doesn't seem ridiculously selfish? Especially when you could just... not play with younger kids? Not go to bigger tournaments?

FYI: I'm 34. I have a wife and kid. I don't particularly like immature people either. But I also wouldn't lump every young person into that category, and I certainly wouldn't argue in favor of keeping people out of the format just because I don't like them. Go play at a country club or something if you want an exclusive crowd without immature people.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is what I don't understand, so, please, help me understand. You would rather have your cards that you worked hard for retain their value than bigger/more frequent tournaments? Even when this value is not guaranteed to go down dramatically if they reprint them.
Player entitlement issues are probably the biggest argument in favor of the Reserved List. The longer the problem goes on, the worse it gets, because players value costs sunk into duals and the possible resale value thereof more than the possible reward of a greater number of tournaments.

As it stands, a couple of things are relatively certain:

1) If you bought duals sometime in the last couple of years, they are going to be worth about what you paid for them (or more) for the foreseeable future;

2) If you bought staples like Force or Wasteland sometime in the last couple of years, they are going to be worth about what you paid for them (or more) for the foreseeable future;

3) There aren't hard numbers available to the public indicating how saturated the demand for Legacy events is (in other words, how many more players would participate if all players had roughly equal access to staple cards like duals);

4) Many players treat duals somewhat like bonds, in that you invest in them with the expectation that the price will be stable and then cash out at some point in the future. This may be true for A/B/summer, but it is not necessarily true for U/R/foreign black-bordered if reprints were to occur. Players in that case would have bought high but would be forced to sell low, resulting in a net loss.

The tricky thing here is managing people's perceptions of sunk costs. It's also worth remembering that the assumption that more duals = more players works if and only if the true demand for Legacy events has not yet been met. While there might be an uptick in tournaments because of reprints, and the EDH market would certainly like them, Wizards is balancing that against merchant and player anger at devalued investments. You may say, "Well, fuck them," but a company doesn't want to piss off its user base for little gain, and reprinting duals would likely be very divisive.

Getting rid of the Reserved List doesn't automatically mean the market would be flooded with reprints, but there's no reason not to get rid of it if you don't intend to reprint certain cards on it.

[xfxf]

Many reserve list defenders think as if there is no way to do reprints without lowering the value of all those money cards to 0.50$

If they reprinted the reserve list cards in a special print run with new borders and/or new art, commons being commons, rares being rares in the boosters there would be enough supply to get the cards to the players hands. However they wouldn't immediately crash the price of the older cards. Older cards are older cards and they will always be cooler. White border or not, I'm using Revised duals and not new framed dual lands in my decks even if they cost 10 bucks.

Even if such a distribution lowered the value of the cards 20-30% it wouldn't crash the market and lower the barrier of entry a good deal. Right now card prices are going off the roof and I think the upper limit should be controlled by Wizards by doing small print runs as the player base increase over the years.

[bruizar]

Ravnica foil duals are pretty pimp. I'd foil out real duals and get rid of my revised duals asap. That, or beta duals.

[millerd33]

So.... because you don't want to play with younger kids, you would argue in favor of preventing everyone from getting reprints? That doesn't seem ridiculously selfish? Especially when you could just... not play with younger kids? Not go to bigger tournaments?

FYI: I'm 34. I have a wife and kid. I don't particularly like immature people either. But I also wouldn't lump every young person into that category, and I certainly wouldn't argue in favor of keeping people out of the format just because I don't like them. Go play at a country club or something if you want an exclusive crowd without immature people.

How is playing within the rules wizards set up being selfish? I chose a format that fit what I was looking to get out of the game. Both socially and financially. I didn't create the reserve list nor would I call for it had one not exist. I made moves with my collection based on it though. There is nothing wrong with wanting to play a game with people more my age. We obviously disagree so i'm just curious why you take it so personally to the point you would tell me to go play at a country club. Based on your reply I can see your question was only a way to keep me talking about this and to attack no matter what answer I gave. You have a good day sir. Best of Luck to you and your family.

Back on topic: Even if these cards were reprinted there is no way to get them to the players. Is anyone able to purchase from the vaults x4 at msrp? Not everyone that's for sure. Eternal booster boxes sound great. Problem is they have to get through the store to get to the players. If Underground Sea was in a booster box there is 0 chance the store would not just bust the boxes themselves and clean up on the secondary market.

How would you get these reprints to the players without the retailers charging way above msrp for the sealed product or just break them themselves?

[bruizar]

How is playing within the rules wizards set up being selfish? I chose a format that fit what I was looking to get out of the game. Both socially and financially. I didn't create the reserve list nor would I call for it had one not exist. I made moves with my collection based on it though. There is nothing wrong with wanting to play a game with people more my age. We obviously disagree so i'm just curious why you take it so personally to the point you would tell me to go play at a country club. Based on your reply I can see your question was only a way to keep me talking about this and to attack no matter what answer I gave. You have a good day sir. Best of Luck to you and your family.

Back on topic: Even if these cards were reprinted there is no way to get them to the players. Is anyone able to purchase from the vaults x4 at msrp? Not everyone that's for sure. Eternal booster boxes sound great. Problem is they have to get through the store to get to the players. If Underground Sea was in a booster box there is 0 chance the store would not just bust the boxes themselves and clean up on the secondary market.

How would you get these reprints to the players without the retailers charging way above msrp for the sealed product or just break them themselves?

Keep printing until the price collapses -> birds of paradise

[Koby]

Keep printing until the price collapses -> birds of paradise

True story, this card (wb 4th edition) used to be worth $12. Oh man what a rich time that was.

[kwelts]

True story, this card (wb 4th edition) used to be worth $12. Oh man what a rich time that was.

i think birds also went down in price cuz noble hierarch got printed.

[bruizar]

True story, this card (wb 4th edition) used to be worth $12. Oh man what a rich time that was.

The only versions of BoP that are worth money are the pimp ones -> Beta, Alpha, 7th foil. The rest cratered hard (including revised and unlimited). This is why I don't feel safe having white bordered cards (read: p3k) on my hands. When they start reprinting P3K all hell will break loose. *cough* imperial seal *cough *recruiter*

[TsumiBand]

Keep printing until the price collapses -> birds of paradise

Good call. I've been using BoP as an example of what enough reprints will do to a card's price point for years. Noble Hierarch was a nail in the coffin, sure, but if a site like findmagiccards.com is to be trusted at all, the card in all its various print runs has been slowly devaluing since about the middle of 2005 (That was Ravnica block - Hierarch didn't get printed until mid 2009, FWIW).

As long as people use the price of the game pieces as a means to filter out who gets to play and who doesn't, the game will never be transcendent like Chess or Poker. There may be certain barriers in place to break into tournament play in those games, but then again a six-year old with $5 in her pocket can go buy a deck of cards or a fake plastic chess set and have the entire game at their disposal. I don't have any illusions of seeing decks like ANT turning into $5 decks, but that doesn't mean that the corollary needs to be the way of things either; what a shocker that the average Magic player both plays Standard and only plays for 2 years, you can pick up a pre-con for under $20 bucks and boom, you're a Magic player. You've gotta be a weird bird to get into a format where you need to hunt all over hell and back for a deal on 4 cards in your deck; Standard's price is deceptively low even with the constant rotation, because again the average player sees that the money they spent on their deck is sort of crap after two years; they can't play it in Standard, it's not necessarily very good in Modern and most of the time it will be terrible in Legacy or Vintage, so that 'average player' isn't dropping nearly as much on their hobby as an Eternal player. Their initial investment goes to shit, they then hear that if they want to roll with the big boys they have to spend an arbitrary amount of money on their 'land spells' and they bail. Big surprise.

[Mr.C]

What people don't get is that the reserve list has *no* bearing on value of cards, at least not stuff that wasn't originally short-printed (Arabian, Antiquities, A/B/U).

Playability is the only thing that matters. When Legacy dies (or goes the way of vintage), duals will tank, lets face it. Maybe not A/B ones, but revised? There's a ton of them out there. The way things are going, Modern will take place of Legacy. The only way Legacy could have been saved was through the thinning (not abolishing) of the reserve list.Everyone would have been happy, and we would not be having this discussion right now.

[(nameless one)]

It's funny that how 70% of the cards in the Reserved List cost less than $4 each. The list doesn't really do much when it comes to card prices.

I noticed that the cards that hold high value in that list are the playable cards.

[xfxf]

Can we have a poll about this? Something like "Would you like the reserve list gone?"
Is it done before?

[bruizar]

The saving grace to white bordered duals is EDH, since beta duals are often too expensive for even the most pimped out dudes.

[jandax]

...Go play at a country club or something if you want an exclusive crowd with immature people.


I fix 4 u lol

But in all seriousness, I'm pretty sure a limited run of Reserve list cards would be snapped up hardcore by collectors. Some amount would actually make it into players' hands. Depending on the print run and length thereof, those guys with sets of Alpha/Beta duals just might be a majority of the people who obtain the release set verses the common player. The foil Alara block boosters would be an example of what could occur. In the end, all we have now is speculation. The only big fluctuation in pricing would happen with new printings of reserve cards. A/B/U/R Duals and so on will stay collectable and stay valuable. To what degree, that's what irks people.

[I am the brainwasher]

The way things are going, Modern will take place of Legacy. The only way Legacy could have been saved was through the thinning (not abolishing) of the reserve list.Everyone would have been happy, and we would not be having this discussion right now.

Could you pls stop repeating 24/7 that Legacy's dead because of Modern?
Gees.
I agree that thinning the reserved list would have been awesome though.
Modern is played monthly over here (for quite some time now) and you know what, always 4-8 people show up, staring at 70-90 Legacy players.
Modern is only relevant because of its introduction to competetive Magic.
I dipped into the format myself to get to know it and it is definetly far away from beeing a complete mess, but tons of players would choose Legacy over it every single time because the format by itself (Legacy) is great and card availability is a problem modern has already (which should be alarming in terms of how young the format is).
When it somes down to spending money to stay competetive in modern, I would go so far to say that you have to invest even more money than starting to play Legacy in a long-term sight.
Modern is the most undefined format ever, which contains a whole lot of expensive staples (and prices are still going through the roof) which are required to play a relevant deck.
The monthly changing meta and the fact that you can pilot tons of decks at the higher tables (at least right now, even if some decks drawn somewhat clear lines around whats playable) create absurd prices of cards and a insecure market, which I for myself feel not very pleased with.
Buy a staple, see it gets banned 3 month later. Buy the mana-base, see better equivalents getting printed. And I am not even talking about relevant cards coming in each new set. Modern is really the gold-farting donkey they searched for quite some time and if people are willing to take a whacky ride on it, not my problem, but this doens't make things any better.
If you try to stay realistic, you would realize that it is so damn expensive to own the card pool which is necessary to compete in this format, that I get the impression that I am talking to a troll, hiding behind pseudo-intellectual phrases, randomly thrown into empty forum space.

[The Wolf]

This idea that legacy is being held back because of price is very funny. There are big tournaments as well as dedicated local playgroups. Do you think it’s gonna replace standard?
The power level is too high for wizards to ever push it past where it is. They don't want cards like LED floating around because the game is being streamlined as much as possible. Legacy/Vintage interactions are just huge a rules mess that we understand cause we play the formats a lot. Wizards business model is based off bringing in new players.
They are happy to throw old players a bone with some large events, but that’s as far as it will ever go, regardless of the price of the cards.

[phonics]

I think the barrier for entry is more of the stigma that surrounds eternal formats like vintage and legacy, players coming from standard (basically everyone) may find these formats very daunting, especially with common misconceptions like first turn kills aplenty and complex.stack interactions that many would rather not bother with. Modern may facilitate the progression to eternal formats due to its intermediary nature.

[nedleeds]

What people don't get is that the reserve list has *no* bearing on value of cards, at least not stuff that wasn't originally short-printed (Arabian, Antiquities, A/B/U).

Playability is the only thing that matters. When Legacy dies (or goes the way of vintage), duals will tank, lets face it. Maybe not A/B ones, but revised? There's a ton of them out there. The way things are going, Modern will take place of Legacy. The only way Legacy could have been saved was through the thinning (not abolishing) of the reserve list.Everyone would have been happy, and we would not be having this discussion right now.

This man speaks in truth facts. Even worse it goes along with the plan of the evil WotC to move players to a format which benefits them more, like Modern. But people cried and cried about their Carrion Ants tanking from $75.00 to $.50 over night.

The foil promo clause should have remained. Then you could inject cards periodically, which might scare some folks into selling and thus creating some bottoms in the market. From the vaults realms with 10 foil dual lands would have a short term effect on revised prices but largely not impact beta/alpha/fbb as enough people despise foils and the print run is pretty limited.

[Mr.C]

Could you pls stop repeating 24/7 that Legacy's dead because of Modern?


Why? Explain to me again how it's incorrect. I've seen it happen with Vintage. Legacy was created because vintage was too inaccessible. They banned Mask off the bat because of cost!

Legacy started off slow. When I joined this site back in 2005, we were still holding 10-proxy vintage tournaments in Rio de Janeiro. Nobody cared about Legacy there at the time. It then grew in popularity. Modern will be the same.

I'm sorry, I love Legacy, but it is not sustainable. The reserve list cripples the format. It's that simple.

[Bardo]

What people don't get is that the reserve list has *no* bearing on value of cards, at least not stuff that wasn't originally short-printed (Arabian, Antiquities, A/B/U).

When most Legacy players refer to the "Reserved List," they mean "About 40 cards that matter but won't be reprinted."

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but agree that the limited supply of some staples (mainly good duals, FoW, and some other key cards) will ensure that Legacy remains a niche format until it just sort of goes away.

[Mr.C]

When most Legacy players refer to the "Reserved List," they mean "About 40 cards that matter but won't be reprinted."

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but agree that the limited supply of some staples (mainly good duals, FoW, and some other key cards) will ensure that Legacy remains a niche format until it just sort of goes away.

Which is why they should have done a final revision to the List, and made it so that it was A/B/U/Antiquities/Arabian Nights plus Starter 1999 if they really wanted to.

That way, only cards whose only version is in English would have been protected. Then ban accordingly. Players happy, collectors happy. Alas, no.

Edit: Which is one of the reasons I sold most of my cards. I mean, I love the game and stuff, but Wizards (Hasbro?) really shit the bed with this thing. They were clearly signaling they would abolish the list, then did an about face. That did it for me, and I stood to "lose" a chunk of change. For me, being able to play with all my cards is (was?) of the utmost importance. They, instead, decided to cater to who knows who. Which isn't me. Oh, sure, I still draft here and there, but I don't spend nowhere near the same amount of money and time as I did in the past.

[dschalter]

This man speaks in truth facts. Even worse it goes along with the plan of the evil WotC to move players to a format which benefits them more, like Modern. But people cried and cried about their Carrion Ants tanking from $75.00 to $.50 over night.

The foil promo clause should have remained. Then you could inject cards periodically, which might scare some folks into selling and thus creating some bottoms in the market. From the vaults realms with 10 foil dual lands would have a short term effect on revised prices but largely not impact beta/alpha/fbb as enough people despise foils and the print run is pretty limited.

The problem wasn't the elimination of the foil clause- it was the elimination of doubt. For years, people thought that "well, given that they already took lots of cards off Reserved List and given that they have the foil loophole it's quite possible that they might do away with it entirely some day." This was a decent, if not great, situation and it helped keep prices down.

[xfxf]

@Bardo
Can we have a poll about this?

[I am the brainwasher]

Why? Explain to me again how it's incorrect. I've seen it happen with Vintage. Legacy was created because vintage was too inaccessible. They banned Mask off the bat because of cost!

Legacy started off slow. When I joined this site back in 2005, we were still holding 10-proxy vintage tournaments in Rio de Janeiro. Nobody cared about Legacy there at the time. It then grew in popularity. Modern will be the same.

I'm sorry, I love Legacy, but it is not sustainable. The reserve list cripples the format. It's that simple.

That is different from what you said in former posts.
The reserved list will be (at some point) responsible for the fading of Legacy, not the modern format. I am aware of that (as I mentioned in a handfull of posts in all sort of threads here) and I am just annoyed of how short-sighted that "modern-
argument" is, thats it.
Modern is not responsible for the problem Legacy has (better will have at some point), modern by itself has enough stuff to deal with (even if Wizards desperatly try to fix it) and is far away from beeing a thread in terms of how players are attracted to it. And this won't change as soon as some players fear right now.
I agree that Wizards isn't interested in a peaceful co-existence of these formats, which is sad, but not the end of the world (hopefully).
With that beeing said, I hope players who read this thread are encouraged to introduce the format to new players, don't behave like elitist muppets and are willing to lend cards to those who can't afford the money to own the staples.
A sinking ship is still sinking, regardless how many jeweled pirates are on it, and some players really need to realize that, but no, Modern is not the thread you try to declare it to.

[Pastorofmuppets]

FoW

Force isn't on the reserve list.
But it does bring up the issue of cards that might as well be on the reserve list. For example, does anyone here honestly believe that Force or Wasteland will be in another set? What about newer cards like Jace, Snapcaster, Batterskull, or Stoneforge? Granted, there's a lot more of them out there than Underground Seas, but their lack of supply will be noticeable if the format keeps expanding for one reason or another.

[Humphrey]

Well, Wasteland was at least a Judgepromo not long ago. Fow might follow one day.
The other cards you mentioned are widely available and might be reprinted in future products, like FTV oder Precons

The biggest issue with the reserved list are the dual lands on it, since almost every legacy deck needs 4+ of them, not just 1-2 tabernacle in a nichedeck like lands.


Anyways, id love to see them print proxy cards with no pictures and just plain text one day that are tournament legal.

[Bardo]

Which is why they should have done a final revision to the List, and made it so that it was A/B/U/Antiquities/Arabian Nights plus Starter 1999 if they really wanted to.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. Sadly, it is what it is now. And they're not going back on their position any time soon.


@Bardo
Can we have a poll about this?

Knock yourself out, though I don't know what it will accomplish since you're polling such a self-contained crowd.



Force isn't on the reserve list.

Gurf. :) Brainfart there.

[bruizar]

Anyways, id love to see them print proxy cards with no pictures and just plain text one day that are tournament legal.

Proxies are easy, just use the flip cards from Innistrad block and make a vintage / legacy list.

[ajfennewald]

Force isn't on the reserve list.
But it does bring up the issue of cards that might as well be on the reserve list. For example, does anyone here honestly believe that Force or Wasteland will be in another set? What about newer cards like Jace, Snapcaster, Batterskull, or Stoneforge? Granted, there's a lot more of them out there than Underground Seas, but their lack of supply will be noticeable if the format keeps expanding for one reason or another.

I don't think wizards releases print run info anymore but to my knowledge revised has as large or a larger print run as most modern sets. The issue is more that these cards are not in curculation. For example I had two savannahs just sitting in a binder for ~10 years while I was not playign the game. I am sure there are lots of duals. like that.

[xfxf]

Have you seen this video?

Decent collection (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ypnbLWa1rQ&feature=related)

If there are 5 guys like this and these duals got into circulation it would have a similar effect of a new print run on the market :D That's why it's important to do small amounts of reprints so that these dragons collecting and hatching on treasures will freak out and cash out their treasures thus letting the market breathe.

[lordofthepit]

Have you seen this video?

Decent collection (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ypnbLWa1rQ&feature=related)

If there are 5 guys like this and these duals got into circulation it would have a similar effect of a new print run on the market :D That's why it's important to do small amounts of reprints so that these dragons collecting and hatching on treasures will freak out and cash out their treasures thus letting the market breathe.

I think he's a big dealer in Asian and sells cards there, which helps start a Legacy community there. He's not hoarding.

[Cynicath]

For example I had two savannahs just sitting in a binder for ~10 years while I was not playign the game. I am sure there are lots of duals. like that.

I just got back into Magic last May after a 12 year hiatus. Lots of goodies just sitting around gathering dust. 5x Tundra, 5x Trops, 3x Savannah, 3x Plateau, 1x Volcanic, 2x Badlands, 3x Mana Drain, 4x FoW, a Karakas, etc. And because I got interested in the game again, some buddies I used to play with took a look at their old collections.. One had 4x Tundra and 4x Tropicals (which he promptly sold on eBay).

No doubt injecting a few more copies of staples into circulation is good for the format, but these kinds of anecdotal incidences are too infrequent, and too insignificant in the scheme of things to do anything. Without reprints, Legacy will forever be limited in how large it can get. Is that so terrible? Sure I wish they reprinted all the staples so everyone could play. But it's not going to happen. I still get to play Legacy at least once a week. And even if Legacy 'dies' people will still want to play it because it's an awesome format. It will always have that grassroots community, like Vintage, only a lot larger because the staples are not nearly so scarce.

[Backseat_Critic]

This is patently false. The big stores stand to gain if something major like the duals were reprinted. The speculators are individuals. Now, some of them happen to be pretty nice people (I'm thinking of Morbid- and Jaco), but with a few notable exceptions, I couldn't possibly give a fuck less about them.

Here's how the scenario works. You're a major company. You have to keep inventory of the product you sell because your customers don't want to keep inventory. That means that they're not going to put up with long lead times. Either you have the part in stock, or they buy somewhere else. But inventory, ANY inventory, is a waste of your money. That's money you could have invested in something useful. Instead, you've got it invested in something that's not accruing interest and in fact actually costs you money for the warehouse space and man-power necessary to manage that inventory. So the faster you move that inventory, the more liquid your position. And while not having the inventory means not making a sale, the closer to "just enough" that you can get - the less of your capital you have tied up in useless inventory - the happier you are, because you're maximizing your gains.

You don't want to sit on cards for long periods of times. You want something to come in and move right out the door again. Ideally, the moment anything touched your dock, you'd turn around and ship it out again. This concept is known as "turns". The company I work for, we shoot for 12 turns a year. That means, ideally, every month, we've turned our entire inventory. The stuff that came in at the end of January needs to be gone by the end of February. Some things turn faster, some slower, but that's our goal. And we're a stocking supplier. If you look at JiT (Just-in-Time) companies like Dell, they try and push their turns to the sub-day level.

I can't tell you what kind of turns Ben Bleweiss averages. But I can say with a fair degree of certainty that he measures his average turns in days. I'd be shocked if his average turn ever extended out past 2 weeks. Now there are going to be some items, mostly older things with limited play value, that are going to end up sitting for 3 months, but there are also going to be cards they're turning daily.

Why does this matter? Say the price of duals drops a dollar a day for 40 days. The speculator, who's holding on to the cards, just lost $40/ea. on those duals. The store, who has no illusions about stockpiling (because remember, inventory is a necessary evil) the shit out of some duals, is buying and selling every day. Yes, they lose a little bit off the profit of each dual, but since they're constantly selling out of their position and buying back in at a lower price, make up the difference in profit in volume. Rather than making 20 transactions at $15, they're making 22 at $14. Voila, profit!

Perhaps you weren't here for the original discussion, but SCG pushed hard for the repeal of the Reserved List. They stood to make a lot of money off it because Ben and Pete are intelligent businessmen.



I understand how the concept of inventory works, but I'd like to revisit your example.
The game store will lose some amount of value on pre-reprint cards they had during the time of the reprint. You are correct in saying that they will also be able to gain money based on selling the new reprints, and at a much greater volume. This also makes a logical assumption that the demand for legacy would be increased. I'm sure it would to some degree, but that would also have an unforeseen cost that deals more specifically with eternal formats.

When it comes down to it all consumers (especially magic players if their constant price gripes are to be taken seriously) have some finite amount of resources. A player who wants to buy in to legacy will likely have to spend less money on standard, drafting, etc. So while the new duals will be a source of good revenue for the store, they would likely just be representing the same total money being spent just on different things.

Legacy isn't exactly gateway magic. People buying in will be people who have a decent amount of experience with the game. So the shift to legacy would be a shift in where money is being spent at the store rather than a new source of money.

Legacy is by far my favorite format, but I do not delude myself into thinking that the health of legacy is a large part of the health of the game itself. Standard is, and must be, the flagship. If legacy is too easy to get into, it might hurt the longevity of the game itself, as people are buying mostly old rather than new cards.

Magic's health would be better served by legacy being not "a format anyone can play," and instead being what it currently is "a format anyone who wants to drop $500-1000 can play." This might be a little too hypothetical and esoteric as of a discussion when the original premise had to do with what course of action would result in more money for a game store.

I would argue that greater accessibility to Legacy may not be that great of a prospect, but I don't even think a mass reprint of duals (the elephant in the room) would necessarily make the format all that much more accessible. Lets say that the price of a Tundra is now $40 instead of $100. Logically a lot more people would suddenly own Tundras and want to use them. So what happens to the price of Force, Wasteland, Onslaught fetches, Jaces, Snapcasters, etc... So a Tundra loses $40 in value, and a Jace gains $40. The premier Legacy deck doesn't become appreciably cheaper.

So then, one might argue, if Wizards was willing to reprint Duals, why not Force, or Jace, or anything else? I would be hard pressed to not call this type of scenario a slippery slope. If Wizards makes its reprint policy just an answer to whatever a vocal group of players think is too expensive, where does that end? If no card is "sacred" how can any card be perceived to hold any value over a long term? And if cards can't be seen as valuable in the long term, the definition of long term will keep getting shorter and the value driven lower and lower.

Which goes full circle to my original argument which is that even the "threat" of future reprints can greatly influence card prices. If prices get too volatile, it won't be worth it for any retailer to keep a singles inventory at all (except the latest standard cards).

So what's the answer? I stated in an earlier post that the answer is what Wizards already does. They use reprints to have modest impacts on card prices and to generate excitement for future products. I pointed out the paradigm of small print runs being able to reprint a $50 card (judge foils, FTVs). Large scale fixed products can reprint a $25 card (duel decks, commander). New set releases can also go up to maybe $25 as well. It will be interesting to see if shock lands get a reprint in a new set of a fixed product.

I would say that what I've seen from Wizards is a great product that is constantly improving. A large change in reprint behavior would produce dubious gains, at best, all around. If you think, like I do, that Magic is on a roll right now, why shake it up?

Backseat Critic

[Mr. Safety]

Have you seen this video?

Decent collection (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ypnbLWa1rQ&feature=related)

If there are 5 guys like this and these duals got into circulation it would have a similar effect of a new print run on the market :D That's why it's important to do small amounts of reprints so that these dragons collecting and hatching on treasures will freak out and cash out their treasures thus letting the market breathe.

Holly mother-truckin' sheet...That guy is sitting on a fortune.

[xfxf]

I think he's a big dealer in Asian and sells cards there, which helps start a Legacy community there. He's not hoarding.

Honestly, what a relief :laugh: The way he shows the Priest of Gix proxy at the end I took it as "I used to play Mono Black and proxy up Priest of Gix but look where I'm now bitches MWAHAHAHAHA!" kind of showing.

[SpikeyMikey]

It's not just that they'd make money on new duals. They'd move a higher volume and therefore make higher net profits on the old ones as well.

Of course people have a finite amount of money to spend on paperboard. But saying that a drop in prices wouldn't increase the amount of money spent on the game is just nonsensical. Let's take a quick look at two stocks from the same company. Berkshire Hathaway's A stock is worth $118,110.01 a share, right now. The B stock is worth $78.69 a share. The volume of movement on the B stock is 2,479, 826 shares traded so far today. The A stock was 316. That means $195,137,507.94 worth of B stock has traded today and $37,322,763.16 worth of A stock. If you're taking a cut of each sale, say 10%, you'd much rather be moving B stock. A stock is a better investment (more voting rights), but even if the B stock were to drop without the A stock mirroring it and your cut goes down to 5%, you're making loads of money more than you would selling A stock at 10%.

I spend $0 annually on in print cards. I spend marginally more than that on OOP cards, only because sometimes I need to buy something obscure for a tournament that I can't borrow from someone. But I'm not interested in buying A stock. The price is too high, even if it's a more valuable commodity. But I'd buy B stock. And it's not inconceivable that I'd eventually buy enough B stock that I'd have an A stock worth of B stock (after the 50-1 split, that equates to roughly 1500 shares, give or take, based on market fluctuations). I'd have spent the same money ($118,035 vs $118,110, close enough at that price range) and have less to show for it. But because the initial buy in is smaller, I could talk myself into escalating to that range.

It's not that I can't afford the cards. I work two jobs, I have no kids and no appreciable debt except for my car payment. I could spend 10 grand on cards this year and still keep my $43,000 convertible and the half-house I rent with a koi pond in the backyard. And it's not like I never owned cards. I used to have enough staples, outside of P9 (which I only had 1 set of at any given time) and duals (where I usually had a few extras, but not a full 2 sets), that I could build two copies of pretty much any deck I wanted to. But I gave it all away when I left San Diego, since there was no room to take it with me.

So here we are. I don't like trading. I'm not covering the cost of buying an appreciable Vintage or Legacy collection. I'm not going to buy cards for Standard, since I won't trade them and I don't need them for a deeper format. I'm not going to draft, because I don't play Standard and have no use for the cards I draft. There is absolutely no incentive whatsoever for me to purchase any product right now. If I could own all the staples I'd need to play Legacy for $2k, I'd probably buy back in. But I don't even think that'd get me a full 40 duals, let alone Forces, Wastes, Goyfs, Bobs, etc. And if I were playing Legacy again, I'd probably go to the odd FNM and do a little drafting. Maybe I'd even get sucked into Standard, since it would make it more worthwhile to go to SCG Opens. You're looking at that $10,000+ of discrectionary income a year that could be dumped into Magic, if the pricing was more reasonable. Because I could escalate my spending in small steps, but I'm not doing it in one gigantic step.

[Cynicath]

If I could own all the staples I'd need to play Legacy for $2k, I'd probably buy back in. But I don't even think that'd get me a full 40 duals, let alone Forces, Wastes, Goyfs, Bobs, etc.

Whenever I see bulk sales of duals on eBay they tend to come out to ~$40/each. Including Seas, Tundras, and Trops. $40x40=$1600, so you could still come out with $400 for other staples. And that's assuming you wanted all 40 duals at once. Why not just buy the 'more useful' ones and decide on a deck and buy the cards you need for that deck, then build as you go? It sounds to me like you're interested but hesitant to pull the trigger on such a large investment, so why not buy in pieces?

[DrJones]

I think the Reserved list only stops wizards from printing cards with the original name, as there are many creative ways to get around the template to print basically the same card, or even better.

For example, Wizards can't reprint the Atog cycle or the Oath cycle because they had the silly idea of putting a part of that cycle in the reserved list.

However, they reprinted Fork in M12 with a slightly different wording. Land Cap is in the reserved list, too, and that didn't stop them to print almost the same cycle of cards in Tempest, and later in Kamigawa block.

Right now, WotC could just print moxes if they worded them this way "T: You may add B to your mana pool". If they don't print them is because they don't want. Same with cards such as Mana Drain and FoW that aren't even on the reserved list.

What holds Legacy back are these things: entry cost, card availability (no matter how much money you have, if nobody has LED in your area you can't put it to your deck), difficulty to switch decks if the metagame changes/your main engine gets banned.

I would also add to that list that most players view legacy as just FoW decks that don't let you play anything vs combo decks that kill you in one turn, and now that people can play Modern without having to give a crap about those big turn offs, I think Legacy will become more of a niche market for dinosaurs that enjoy playing with old cards even as the format gets worse due to lack of care for WotC's part, or even outright sabotage.

[bruizar]

Card availability is really nonsense. Anyone can purchase from eBay and unless you're looking for hard to find foils, pretty much everything is available. Same for magiccard market. Its not like you can't compete without edgar serendib efreets or foil city of traitors. Card accessibility is something completely different. If you don't have the money to acquire the cards, you can't play the game. This is how its always been in this game and it is inherent to the CCG genre. It's either that, or reprinting cards so often until it becomes a card game and loses its collectible status. Once that happens, their ability to sell boosters diminishes because the value of the contents becomes lower and thus the incentive to buy decreases. (Look at Jace / Goyf and see how those sets sold out quickly, then compare to fallen empires that nearly killed the game).

Therefore, magic will always be a game about money cards.

[DrJones]

Card availability may be not a problem to you, but it's indeed a problem for a lot of people.

Also, cards are not pricey just because they are rare, cards get pricey if they belong to the only deck that wins tournaments, and that's something WotC can control without having to print more copies, (or even ban anything, really, all they have to do is shifting the metagame by printing a card that fixes the issue). That's why Masticore was a money rare when it was in Standard, but nowadays it's a buck rare even though no more tournament-legal copies of it have been printed and it's harder to find it in trade binders.

[bruizar]

www.ebay.com

there I solved your availability problem.

[Kich867]

Card availability may be not a problem to you, but it's indeed a problem for a lot of people.

Also, cards are not pricey just because they are rare, cards get pricey if they belong to the only deck that wins tournaments, and that's something WotC can control without having to print more copies, (or even ban anything, really, all they have to do is shifting the metagame by printing a card that fixes the issue). That's why Masticore was a money rare when it was in Standard, but nowadays it's a buck rare even though no more tournament-legal copies of it have been printed and it's harder to find it in trade binders.

No, objectively speaking card availability is an issue that doesn't actually exist. In the event you are someone who is without internet, a car, and outside of reasonable walking distance of a computer with internet, you might have an issue with card availability.

But if that's the case, you're probably amish and have a deep rooted hate for Magic to begin with.

No one in my area has tundras, but I could get a playset of them right now if I were so inclined. No one in my area has wastelands for trade, but I could go get one right now.

It's not a problem for anyone.

[DrJones]

Again, it's not an issue to you, which is understandable because if that were the case, you wouldn't be on this forum. You are already legacy players, most of the issues that prevent more people from entering this format don't apply to you. And you are wrong if you think anybody can (or even wants to) use sites such as ebay.

[bruizar]

@Dr JOnes: Just because (you claim that) they don't want to use eBay, doesn't mean its not available. Also, just because you aren't willing to accept a solution, doesn't mean that your 'issue' is actually relevant. This is like complaining that your legs don't walk fast enough to get to work, when that problem already has several proven solutions (public transportation system, bike, car, live on campus/relocation, get another job, etc). Availability is really not an issue with anyone that wants to play in competitive Legacy events.

My idea is that, in the end, its the card dealers that push the prices. Most of the time, players will only ask, let's say, around 10% or 20% more than a card's current store-price (The threshold may be different. Also, in-stock store prices only). Anything higher than that certain threshold and players will probably simply refuse to trade the card at all. The responsible party for the increase in prices are the card dealers that are intimately familiar with the game (read: SCG/ChannelFireball). Players accept those increased prices during trades, because, well, why the hell wouldn't you if you are the guy trading the card that just jumped in value? Then, because the cards are traded for so much more, the price-setting of the card-dealers is validated and the new price becomes the norm. Card dealers with less accute knowledge of the game alter their prices if they are fast enough to not-get-snipered out of their stock, and the kitchen table magic player can't help but wonder what the hell just happened with the card.

This cycle continues, until the card hits a roof. Legacy's roof is abnormally high because the players are under the illusion that scarcity exists, simply because its an old format. The truth is, print runs of most sets by far outweigh the number of players the game has. So, unless you're collecting alpha, Edgar, some rare foreign language cards, missprints/crimped/albino, Arabian Nights/Antiquities cards or early foils (sagablock/Masquesblock/7th foils), scarcity is really NOT a factor at all.

To add to this, I've been inside the factory that produces Magic cards and have been told by a representative that the total costs to produce, package and ship a booster pack to the end customer is 10 euro cents. The value of the cards are completely made up by those that service the players and collectors -> the card dealers. Its almost the same way contemporary art collectors make up prices (except that you don't get massive tax breaks when buying Magic).

I have a collection worth more than most people have, and I decided to collect foils for this reason. The distribution of foil cards compared to the price of foil cards is totally out of whack. Based purely on scarcity, foil cards should be much more expensive than they currently are. With foils there's this convention among traders (and dealers) that a foil card is worth 2x / 2.5x the non-foil version, but that is a total ass-hat number. Luckily we are seeing some of this convention going away with cards like High Market and Tower of the Magistrate, or 7th foils. I can tell you, when I got a Mercadian Masques boosters box for my birthday back in the days, I didn't get a single foil out of all the entire box (nor Rishadan Port/Squee/Misdirection).

[lordofthepit]

www.ebay.com

there I solved your availability problem.

Awesome! :laugh:

[DrJones]

Heh, if I didn't used ebay, I wouldn't be in this forum, either.

I was trying to see if I was discussing with people that would actually spend a second thinking about some alleged problem, but as you don't, here are few reasons why many players would not use eBay:

1. They don't have an american-accepted bank account/credit card.
2. They don't want to buy online for fear of credit card theft/fear of getting ripped off.
3. The vendor doesn't sell to their country.
4. They live at a timezone that makes extremely difficult to win any bid without getting outbet at the last second.
5. eBay settings by default hide you the mtg cards from most vendors if you live in another country.
6. The shipping time can take too long and packages can get lost on the toll. (I've heard quite a lot of complaints about this from people that bought Power)
7. They prefer to "trade cards" rather than "buying" them.
8. They have poor english skills/don't know the english name of the card.

There can be many more, I just made a list out of the top of my head.

Moreover, I actually took the time to talk and listen to people that don't play legacy, I've read what the Pros think of legacy as a format, I've read what the Mtg Designers think of legacy as a format, and I've read what people that used to play legacy say about the format, and it's not nice.

Legacy as a format is in a better shape than Vintage, but has all of its flaws. It's just that the severity of these flaws is lower, and WotC doesn't want to fix them because its against the company's current interests. That's why they created Modern instead of fixing the problems.

[Kich867]

Again, it's not an issue to you, which is understandable because if that were the case, you wouldn't be on this forum. You are already legacy players, most of the issues that prevent more people from entering this format don't apply to you. And you are wrong if you think anybody can (or even wants to) use sites such as ebay.

No, that's objectively incorrect. Anyone can use ebay, you're addressing a different point entirely.

You're saying not even wants to, and that's their problem. Saying that you don't want to take advantage of the availability of cards is not the same as saying that there is an issue with the availability of cards.

Anyone can, some choose not to because of their own reasons which has no impact on the availability of cards.

I mean you can argue that all you want, but in reality where real things happen, saying "There's an issue with the availability of cards but it only applies to people who don't want to look for them" seems kind of silly. There is actually a gross overabundance of most any card you would want in the format. The only ones that are somewhat rare are things like Moat and Tabernacle and Candelabra, but very few decks even use those, and even then, they're available, to say otherwise is patently false.

You can't say that there is an issue with card availability, I can show you, prove to you that that is untrue.

[bruizar]

1. They don't have an american-accepted bank account/credit card.
You can link your Paypal with your EUROPEAN bank account / iDeal
2. They don't want to buy online for fear of credit card theft/fear of getting ripped off.
eBay offers buyer protection. If you don't receive something, you get your money back guaranteed.
3. The vendor doesn't sell to their country.
The majority of vendors have no problem shipping anywhere, however, there are a bunch of sellers that refuse to sell to Spanish people due to past experiences. Even so, insure the shipping and its no problem with even that small minority.
4. They live at a timezone that makes extremely difficult to win any bid without getting outbet at the last second.
You can use buy it now, and no, its not like you get a bad deal per se if you use buy it now. (magiccardmarket only has buy it now..)
5. eBay settings by default hide you the mtg cards from most vendors if you live in another country.
Even if this is true, and your country has a small-ass supply, go to ebay.com instead of ebay.es.
6. The shipping time can take too long and packages can get lost on the toll. (I've heard quite a lot of complaints about this from people that bought Power)
Funny that you never hear that complaint with people buying Giant Growth's. Again, you can insure (which you should if you're buying power)
7. They prefer to "trade cards" rather than "buying" them.
Preference doesn't mean that the cards are not available. Price is an accessibility concern, not an availability concern!
8. They have poor english skills/don't know the english name of the card.
It's not that hard to go to a site and sort the cards by set/color, then choosing the card with the same picture, and just copy the text name. I'm sure gatherer has an option to translate to other languages too.

I took the time to answer all of your concerns even though none of them are related to card availability. As you can see, even if these concerns were valid, there are pretty easy solutions to all of them.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Moreover, I actually took the time to talk and listen to people that don't play legacy, I've read what the Pros think of legacy as a format, I've read what the Mtg Designers think of legacy as a format, and I've read what people that used to play legacy say about the format, and it's not nice.

Not to derail the existing conversation... but what does this have to do with anything? Some people don't like legacy? I like legacy a lot, I think it's a super fun and diverse format... plus I love getting to play with cool, old cards.

So because other people don't like legacy... well... what does that have to do with card availability? My apologies if I'm not following what you're suggesting. Are you suggesting that the greater problem for legacy is that not enough people like it? Or people who are more important than the players (designers, pros, etc) don't like the format?

[Kich867]

Not to derail the existing conversation... but what does this have to do with anything? Some people don't like legacy? I like legacy a lot, I think it's a super fun and diverse format... plus I love getting to play with cool, old cards.

So because other people don't like legacy... well... what does that have to do with card availability? My apologies if I'm not following what you're suggesting. Are you suggesting that the greater problem for legacy is that not enough people like it? Or people who are more important than the players (designers, pros, etc) don't like the format?

Maybe it's just a language barrier (he's from Spain apparently) but I rarely am able to follow his posts. They seem to be a shotgun of unconnected thoughts with that air of "Gotcha!", but the gotcha is usually this woefully vague almost meme-like sentence.

I think after the incorrect tangent about card availability, he was trying to say that the format is going to go the way of vintage, except vintage actually has a problem with card availability / pricing people out of the format.

[Surging Chaos]

Keep printing until the price collapses -> birds of paradise


True story, this card (wb 4th edition) used to be worth $12. Oh man what a rich time that was.

Yeah, I think Birds is a great example of what happens when you reprint a card over and over again. Birds used to be a chase rare in a core set by default, but as it kept getting reprinted over time more and more, it's now a ~$3 card that is incredibly easy to get.

It took a lot of reprints for Birds to drop that low though. Although you can now grab a black-bordered Birds on the cheap, the older A/B/U versions still command a premium. Even with all of those Birds now on the market from constant reprints, the old versions still retain their price value.

This is what I see with dual lands if they hypothetically got a reprint (or a not-quite functional reprint came along to circumvent the "no functional reprints" clause on the Reserved List): new dual lands would be relatively cheap and the old school ones would lose some value, but still be quite expensive simply because they're older versions.

[xfxf]

I'd like to reply to this as someone who used to live "slightly" outside of Europe and recently moved to Europe.


Heh, if I didn't used ebay, I wouldn't be in this forum, either.

I was trying to see if I was discussing with people that would actually spend a second thinking about some alleged problem, but as you don't, here are few reasons why many players would not use eBay:

1. They don't have an american-accepted bank account/credit card.
Master and Visa are global, sometimes they ask for verification which delays the order for a couple of days.
2. They don't want to buy online for fear of credit card theft/fear of getting ripped off.
If the seller has good reputation I don't really fear getting ripped off except for Power.
3. The vendor doesn't sell to their country.
Now this is a huge problem as it is 50% the case. You get a sweet deal even on BIT but only shipping to US.
4. They live at a timezone that makes extremely difficult to win any bid without getting outbet at the last second.
Oh hell yeah, last night I woke up at 4.00 am to check an auction's last minutes and saw that I was outbid, got pissed off and went to bed, saw a nightmare where I was forced into a running competition :S
5. eBay settings by default hide you the mtg cards from most vendors if you live in another country.
Don't really know about that, don't really use my ninja hacking skills to masquerade my IP in real life, when I get home I just want to be a dummy user.
6. The shipping time can take too long and packages can get lost on the toll. (I've heard quite a lot of complaints about this from people that bought Power)
Yes, this happens. Not always, but when it happens you are like "FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!"
7. They prefer to "trade cards" rather than "buying" them.
Not so much, no.
8. They have poor english skills/don't know the english name of the card.
Not so much, no. I have poor French skills which I get punished for everyday. Spanish you don't need so much but French is incredibly crucial, they enjoy your suffering :)


Kinda tipsy so will head off to the Mish-Mash area now, sorry for any inconvenience..

[TsumiBand]

Yeah, I think Birds is a great example of what happens when you reprint a card over and over again. Birds used to be a chase rare in a core set by default, but as it kept getting reprinted over time more and more, it's now a ~$3 card that is incredibly easy to get.

It took a lot of reprints for Birds to drop that low though. Although you can now grab a black-bordered Birds on the cheap, the older A/B/U versions still command a premium. Even with all of those Birds now on the market from constant reprints, the old versions still retain their price value.

This is what I see with dual lands if they hypothetically got a reprint (or a not-quite functional reprint came along to circumvent the "no functional reprints" clause on the Reserved List): new dual lands would be relatively cheap and the old school ones would lose some value, but still be quite expensive simply because they're older versions.


Agree. The originals hold their value because they are the first run. The reprints of Superman #1 haven't damaged the original's long-term collectability. If somebody decided to somehow start making Faberge eggs again, the remaining original 40-or-so would retain their value over time. It's part of the collector's MO to place more value on the 'original article'. An m13 dual land would probably be shitty pricey, but would it undermine the value of ABU lands from a collector's viewpoint? Only if that collector somehow believes that their stock in that item is more affected by its usefulness than its status as precious. After all, how many true collectors sit around *reading* their 1939 Superman #1?

This is the bit that I don't fully understand; the market has pressure from collectors and players, the game itself is clearly a successful venture which has spawned countless other TCGs that have come full circle to influence Magic (Morph cards? Trap cards? bitch please), its place in gaming history is, AFAICT, secure. So how could it possibly be in the collector's interest to deny reprints at this point? The hubris should go exactly like this: "Eh nice new-border Taiga, kid - you ever want to see the real article, you just let me know, kthx."

[TarmoX]

What about if they'll reprint a new very ugly picture and white bord on duals?
Maybe the prices of revised will be safe from falling down and people (collectors) may accept this deal.......

[bruizar]

What about if they'll reprint a new very ugly picture and white bord on duals?
Maybe the prices of revised will be safe from falling down and people (collectors) may accept this deal.......

Whiteborder non-foil would be a start. Blackborders or foil will decimate revised / unlimited.

[Kich867]

What about if they'll reprint a new very ugly picture and white bord on duals?
Maybe the prices of revised will be safe from falling down and people (collectors) may accept this deal.......

I'd love to meet these collectors. The only thing I can think of that exist as collectors of sorts are the game stores.. Magic isn't like beanie babies, people actually use them for something and I've never actually heard of anyone who could be considered strictly a collector, who cares more about the value of the item than it's usability.

The only people that stand to benefit from reprinting duals and other staples are Wizards of the Coast, the players, and the game stores.

Interestingly enough, that encompasses...everyone that matters. The bat-shit-crazy sales they would get if they printed legit dual lands again would dwarf worldwake and people cracking packs for jace.

The biggest criticism I have of the game is that land, strictly the most uninteresting yet pivotal part of the game is the most expensive. You need a solid mana base to realistically play any deck, yet there's only really 1 option for them. In most decks, the land dwarfs any other card in the deck in price, while being the least exciting aspect of the deck.

It doesn't contribute to the deck's strategy, what it does, how it works, it's just there so all of the cards in the deck read "3" for their casting cost instead of "1WB".

[woremak]

I used to have a pretty good legacy collection.

I had (back in like 2009) a complete aggro loam deck (short a Badlands), including the set of Wasteland, a Tabernacle (although it wasn't in great shape) and generic goodies like Goyfs and Vinidcate and other random junk (I think I had three Forces, though I was trying to trade them off).

Some unfortunate stuff happened, and the collection was decimated. I think I retained a Mox Diamond and a Taiga, and everything else was gone or so messed up it was entirely useless. So after taking some time off because I had literally no collection anymore, I bought a dredge deck and now that's pretty much all I play.

I'm a student, so I don't fit into the "elite and mature" club that has been referenced in earlier posts in this thread. I loved playing Legacy and I play a relatively cheap deck just so I can participate in tournaments. I could borrow from other people to play their tier 2 or tier 3 decks, but that option was pretty much closed once I went away to school.

I'm not complaining about losing my collection, bad shit happens and at the end of the day it was cardboard. But the price of the format is actively restricting what I can play.

When pros talk about "going infinite" on MTGO they always say you should buy a cheap standard deck and grind away. But there aren't seven IRL legacy tournaments a day, so that type of building is too long term. In addition, the difference in the power level between budget and non-budget decks is too disparate for building a deck based on winning tournaments to be realistic. So Legacy is a format that is something I have to choose between never playing (and saving money for a deck that I need for other things right now, like I'm sure other people on this forum need non-magic stuff more than magic stuff) or grinding Dredge/Burn/Elves and losing to people who build good sideboards.

I guess the tl; dr of this is that the way legacy seems to work is that to truly access the format the initial investment either takes too long to get or is into a narrow budget deck with little cross-over. I don't know if there is any easy fix, but the fact that it is entirely unrealistic for some people to play the format the way they want to is wrong on a fundamental level.

[Einherjer]

Im going to school aswell. And even though I do own the whole BUGR pool which enables me to play pretty much all decks I like (see beow). Its just a question of long time investment and setting priorities (I dont smoke and dont drink too much). I started Legacy with a BW Basiclands-Failure-Deck and now I ended up with Tier 1-1.25 decks...
As said - just a question of priorities.

[xfxf]

It's true that by establishing your priorities and over time it's possible to build a Legacy collection. But many who already have their collections just don't notice how hard it is getting over time. If you had the journey like 2 years ago it was easier. For someone who is trying to get into Legacy "now" it's really hard. But next year it will be even harder. Last summer (around June if I'm not mistaken) Underground Sea was $120 NM. Now it's $140. It's not like the prices are high but stable and you can build your collection with patience. The prices are increasing as you are collecting. Working up the Tiers slowly isn't very feasible at this point because every purchase you delay will cause you a loss.

Say if you want to start building Maverick now and plan to complete it in 4 months you have these challanges. You have to pay around $300 every month (assuming around $1200 in total) while not having a deck. In 4 months the meta could change significantly (another ban update is around the corner). If you plan to move into other colors after Maverick, blue duals will cost 10-20 more in 4 months and with fetchlands you could be looking to pay $100 extra in total for a playset if you delay your blue duals purchase 4 months. If after completing Maverick you need to take a breake from your Magic expenses for a couple of months those blue duals and fetches will get even further out of your reach. So basically you have to do it now. Can you imagine how it will be like in 2 years?

I'm glad that I'm a working individual and managed to get most of my essentials over the past year but it's still a work in progress and I really don't know how a student would be able to manage it now. Or next year. The way see it, the ones who bought in will be in the format but there will be less newcomers every year and Legacy is nearing its upper limit.

[bruizar]

I think that's exactly the case bilb_o. I started aggresively hunting foil EDH and Legacy staples some 2 years ago, while moving from Vintage. I consider myself being late to the party, and not aggressive enough considering the current prices. I can imagine how daunting it must be for someone to start now. That said, it's not too expensive to build Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge, Elves or Burn. Sure, it doesn't quiet have the eternal-appeal that makes us all love the game so much, but it can keep you occupied while you slowly collect the essentials for other decks. And as you play with those cheaper decks, you will learn a lot about the format and are able to make better purchasing decisions because you can prioritize better. Also, Dredge allows you to play in proxy 10 vintage tournaments and actually have a chance. In fact, it's one of my favorite decks and I often take this to a tournament over other decks, and I am not limited in my deck choice.

The road may be long and painful, but as long as you don't care about foiling out, you can actually get started pretty quickly. Another thing to note is that standard cards have become a lot more expensive in this day and age. You can actually get quiet some gas out of your prerelease boosters. Jace and Tarmogoyf are examples of cards where the smart standard players could buy themselves into Legacy. Goyf was 2.5 and Jace was 20 at SCG. I got an Elesh-Norn and a Sword of War and Peace out of my New Phyrexia prerelease, and Mental Missteps were also fairly expensive back then. Those were also very good opportunities for the standard players to obtain cross-format staples. I can tell you that I traded 3 foil Snapcaster Mages in a deal with 3 revised duals. Normally, I would have never done this, considering Snapcaster is such a new card. But I know that 5 years from now, Snapcaster will be priced the same as Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant, due to its cross-format playability (vintage/legacy/modern). So, that means that one lucky guy is now 3 duals richer for the price of a couple of lucky booster drafts.

[Surging Chaos]

It's true that by establishing your priorities and over time it's possible to build a Legacy collection. But many who already have their collections just don't notice how hard it is getting over time. If you had the journey like 2 years ago it was easier. For someone who is trying to get into Legacy "now" it's really hard. But next year it will be even harder. Last summer (around June if I'm not mistaken) Underground Sea was $120 NM. Now it's $140. It's not like the prices are high but stable and you can build your collection with patience. The prices are increasing as you are collecting. Working up the Tiers slowly isn't very feasible at this point because every purchase you delay will cause you a loss.

Say if you want to start building Maverick now and plan to complete it in 4 months you have these challanges. You have to pay around $300 every month (assuming around $1200 in total) while not having a deck. In 4 months the meta could change significantly (another ban update is around the corner). If you plan to move into other colors after Maverick, blue duals will cost 10-20 more in 4 months and with fetchlands you could be looking to pay $100 extra in total for a playset if you delay your blue duals purchase 4 months. If after completing Maverick you need to take a breake from your Magic expenses for a couple of months those blue duals and fetches will get even further out of your reach. So basically you have to do it now. Can you imagine how it will be like in 2 years?

I'm glad that I'm a working individual and managed to get most of my essentials over the past year but it's still a work in progress and I really don't know how a student would be able to manage it now. Or next year. The way see it, the ones who bought in will be in the format but there will be less newcomers every year and Legacy is nearing its upper limit.

This post is truth.

I lost track of how many people have said "So what if Legacy is expensive, you can buy into the format over a long period of time and eventually get the staples!" In today's world, that shit doesn't happen anymore. Prices have become so volatile on the secondary market that if you try to buy cards over a long period of time you're going to be paying more than if you just bought all the cards at once. This is especially true when speculators cause the price of a card to suddenly spike or if a random card is part of a winning deck in a large Legacy tourney.

Another thing to bring up that nobody else really has mentioned in this thread: without any new supply to inject into the market, dual lands are subject to entropy. They eventually get lost, destroyed, and/or stolen (just look at how insane theft has gotten in MTG over the years!). It's not even taking into account how many duals were shelved or tossed because people thought cards like Shivan Dragon and Serra Angel were better back in the very beginning of Magic. Just like the second law of thermodynamics, the amount of "unusable" dual lands will only increase with time.

[woremak]

Another issue, which is more applicable to people in my situation, is what the definition of cheap is. When I picked up Dredge (without LED's) I spent around $100. I think now it's closer to $150, but that still makes LEDless dredge a find deck. But LED's are at like $30, so I had to trade up to them slowly. I think this is an example of an accumulating strategy working.

But Goblins and Merfolk aren't necessarily cheap decks. A playset of Forces is $200, last I checked mutavault was ~30, wasteland is ~40, so to pick up the deck your investing at least $450 if not more and that's not something that everyone can do. Goblins is also kind of bad if you consider that Piledriver still costs $20, if you splash a color you need fetches, and port is also a roughly ~30 card.

To me, this isn't cheap. It's relatively cheap, but legacy is still relatively too expensive.

(I should add that these prices might be off, I didn't look exhaustively)

______

Also, the notion of trading into legacy is dependent on me wanting to play formats other than legacy. I don't really do that. I don't have the opportunity or money to play a ton of magic, so I'd rather play it in the format I enjoy most. I know there are others like me who also don't really keep up with standard/modern/whatever. It doesn't seem right that the "cheapest" way to access a format is by playing other formats.

[TarmoX]

@Woremak:
At this point all formats are expansive; recently i saw prices of Goyf, Confidant, Clique or other goodies and im feeling bad that modern too is not realistically cheap.

The question we should ask is what would be right that the prices of our cards because even now you should not buy more!........

[Einherjer]

As long as people will pay the prices they will stay as high as they are. If people stop paying for such a hell-load....they will stay as they are.... So just pay and be happy with the best format available?

I host little Local tournaments aswell as Testing-Rounds. During this Testing-Rounds 100% Proxies are allowed so I get quite alooot people coming there and its a pleasure to explain Legacy to a total noob - but this noob will be buying into the format pretty fast as long as he was playing extensively with one deck and fell in love with that. With more people paying for this cards my Locals are getting bigger and bigger. (+ we well stocked ppl supply others with cards we do have in our binders ofc)

So I dont see much of problem as mentioned above - building a little Legacy Community out of nowhere was NOT a problem - and this in a Country where no sanctioned Tournaments are firing off regulary...

Greetings

[joemauer]

Force of Will and Wasteland should be reprinted in M13 as uncommons.
End of discussion.

[Mr. Safety]

Force of Will and Wasteland should be reprinted in M13 as uncommons.
End of discussion.

Keep wishing...it ain't happening.

I don't think standard would turn into 'OMG the format is broken!' but it would certainly have a power level different than in recent history.

[CorpT]

Keep wishing...it ain't happening.

I don't think standard would turn into 'OMG the format is broken!' but it would certainly have a power level different than in recent history.

You mean like all those Standard staples that didn't make the leap to Legacy. Like Jace, SFM, GSZ, Knight, Noble, Batterskull, Lingering Souls, Pridemage, Delver, Snapcaster, Thalia, Elspeth, and Inquisition.

Those are the Standard staples printed since Alara that saw top 8 appearances at Indy. Only Jace/SFM broke standard. Printing something like Force or Wasteland is totally doable in Standard. Without cards like Brainstorm, Fetches, etc... these cards are not nearly as powerful. Without reasons to play them, like Turn 1 combos, why are people starting decks with 4 FoW? They're probably not. I don't think it would be a different power level than recent history.

[joemauer]

Keep wishing...it ain't happening.

I don't think standard would turn into 'OMG the format is broken!' but it would certainly have a power level different than in recent history.

Yeah I remember when they printed tarmogofy, dark confidant, and mental misstep; they all were nuts in standard and hardly affected Legacy.

[Gheizen64]

Keep wishing...it ain't happening.

I don't think standard would turn into 'OMG the format is broken!' but it would certainly have a power level different than in recent history.

I think only Waste would be considerably good and overplayed in any standard, but something like Force wouldn't even be that good imho when the format is so slow and attrition-based (compared to Legacy of course). You don't need force to counter T4 or T5 bombs. And MM is almost unplayed.

[Tammit67]

I think only Waste would be considerably good and overplayed in any standard, but something like Force wouldn't even be that good imho when the format is so slow and attrition-based (compared to Legacy of course). You don't need force to counter T4 or T5 bombs. And MM is almost unplayed.

Forget standard, modern would be ruined as we know it.

[CorpT]

Forget standard, modern would be ruined as we know it.

They've shown that they are ok with banning overpowered cards in Modern. Jace, SFM, GSZ, Misstep, etc... Not sure why they couldn't just ban either or both of those.

[Humphrey]

actually they could unban combopieces with fow in the format, but wasteland would destroy everything. besides, modern would be a bad version of legacy not a unique format they try it to become
i thought theyll reprint wasteland before they introduced modern, but now well never see it again in standard

[SpikeyMikey]

As far as Modern goes:

Wasteland would probably kill Tron. I don't really consider that a bad thing. It would definitely make things more interesting for Jund as well, although it probably wouldn't actually kill the deck. Otherwise, most of the rest of the decks out there would adjust pretty easily. Affinity might run Wasteland in place of one of the 8 Nexus lands, or it might not. Hard to say. The faster, more aggressive versions probably would; the Etched Champion/Steelshaper's Gifts versions almost certainly wouldn't. Bant could survive Wasteland just fine. Faeries would run it, but I don't think it would make the deck significantly scarier; the countermagic is what keeps that afloat, not the fast clock. Martyr decks would get another abusive tool with Sun Titan; it might bring that deck back. Melira/Pod decks might be able to find room for 2-3 for their own Sun Titan, but that deck is already generally in 3+ colors. U/R Storm wouldn't want it, although it might make the deck a little more palatable for aggro decks looking to buy a little time. Ditto Splinter Twin.

It might lead to new archetypes, as existing ones aren't really set up to take advantage of Wasteland; either they're tapping out every turn and run low land counts (affinity, storm, etc.) or they're in too many colors to abuse colorless lands, given how painful duals are in that format. I guess maybe Living End would become a real deck. That'd be rather shitty, but life goes on.

[DLifshitz]

As far as Modern goes:

I believe you are underestimating the impact Wasteland would have on Modern. Currently the manabases of most decks there are so full of nonbasics, for all intents and purposes Wasteland would be Strip Mine. Almost all decks would have to adapt to Wasteland by lowering their mana curves. I doubt that cute-but-expensive cards like Bloodbraid Elf and Cryptic Command would keep being played, just like they're not played in Legacy.

Most decks would also have to adjust their manabases pretty heavily so as to be more resilient. Wedge color combinations (like BGW) would instantly become better because they can use 8 on-color fetchlands, which makes it easy to always find basic lands. Loam decks and anything that can play KotR would instantly become better for obvious reasons.

If Wasteland is reprinted at all, it will not become legal in Standard and Modern, simply because R&D has a well-known dislike of land destruction. (But they don't seem to have anything against overpowered unkillable creatures and a near-total extinction of control in a format...) What's more, the weak land destruction that is/was available in Standard and Modern (Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge, Smallpox, Boom//Bust, ...) does see a reasonable amount of play, so there's little reason to print something much better.

[DLifshitz]

As far as Modern goes:

Wasteland would probably kill Tron. I don't really consider that a bad thing. It would definitely make things more interesting for Jund as well, although it probably wouldn't actually kill the deck. Otherwise, most of the rest of the decks out there would adjust pretty easily. Affinity might run Wasteland in place of one of the 8 Nexus lands, or it might not. Hard to say. The faster, more aggressive versions probably would; the Etched Champion/Steelshaper's Gifts versions almost certainly wouldn't. Bant could survive Wasteland just fine. Faeries would run it, but I don't think it would make the deck significantly scarier; the countermagic is what keeps that afloat, not the fast clock. Martyr decks would get another abusive tool with Sun Titan; it might bring that deck back. Melira/Pod decks might be able to find room for 2-3 for their own Sun Titan, but that deck is already generally in 3+ colors. U/R Storm wouldn't want it, although it might make the deck a little more palatable for aggro decks looking to buy a little time. Ditto Splinter Twin.

It might lead to new archetypes, as existing ones aren't really set up to take advantage of Wasteland; either they're tapping out every turn and run low land counts (affinity, storm, etc.) or they're in too many colors to abuse colorless lands, given how painful duals are in that format. I guess maybe Living End would become a real deck. That'd be rather shitty, but life goes on.

I believe you are underestimating the impact Wasteland would have on Modern. Currently the manabases of most decks there are so full of nonbasics, for all intents and purposes Wasteland would be Strip Mine. Almost all decks would have to adapt to Wasteland by lowering their mana curves. I doubt that cute-but-expensive cards like Bloodbraid Elf and Cryptic Command would keep being played.

Most decks would also have to adjust their manabases. Wedge color combinations (like BGW) would instantly become better because they can use 8 on-color fetchlands, which makes it easy to always find basic lands. Loam decks and anything that can play KotR would instantly become better for obvious reasons. It would be very easy to create a Wasteland lock.

[Mr. Safety]

You mean like all those Standard staples that didn't make the leap to Legacy. Like Jace, SFM, GSZ, Knight, Noble, Batterskull, Lingering Souls, Pridemage, Delver, Snapcaster, Thalia, Elspeth, and Inquisition.

Those are the Standard staples printed since Alara that saw top 8 appearances at Indy. Only Jace/SFM broke standard. Printing something like Force or Wasteland is totally doable in Standard. Without cards like Brainstorm, Fetches, etc... these cards are not nearly as powerful. Without reasons to play them, like Turn 1 combos, why are people starting decks with 4 FoW? They're probably not. I don't think it would be a different power level than recent history.

You make a good point, and I think we are agreeing on a fundamental level. I also think standard can handle Wasteland and Force of Will.

Most of my thinking was that a free counterspell would allow the best threats in the format to dominate. Tapping out for a big threat while still having Force in hand is very powerful, much more powerful than leaving 2 mana open for Mana Leak should someone attempt to kill your threat. That to me seems more powerful than recent history in standard, but it's just speculation. An opinion, and a subjective one at that. But, you're probably right...

When I said 'it ain't happening' it was more of a tongue-in-cheek statment about Wizards not really looking at impact to formats, but rather just being self-absorbed in creating new cards according to their own agenda. Their agenda includes reasoning like 'land destruction is not fun, make it suck' and 'aggro is the best, keep printing awesome 2-drop creatures' and 'for God's sake, don't print any more good counterspells, we all know what happened with Mental Misstep in legacy.'

[CorpT]

You make a good point, and I think we are agreeing on a fundamental level. I also think standard can handle Wasteland and Force of Will.

Most of my thinking was that a free counterspell would allow the best threats in the format to dominate. Tapping out for a big threat while still having Force in hand is very powerful, much more powerful than leaving 2 mana open for Mana Leak should someone attempt to kill your threat. That to me seems more powerful than recent history in standard, but it's just speculation. An opinion, and a subjective one at that. But, you're probably right...

When I said 'it ain't happening' it was more of a tongue-in-cheek statment about Wizards not really looking at impact to formats, but rather just being self-absorbed in creating new cards according to their own agenda. Their agenda includes reasoning like 'land destruction is not fun, make it suck' and 'aggro is the best, keep printing awesome 2-drop creatures' and 'for God's sake, don't print any more good counterspells, we all know what happened with Mental Misstep in legacy.'

Agreed. I doubt that they will ever reprint them for Standard, but I think that Standard could handle both. Modern would probably be more troublesome though. I would really like Wasteland in Standard. It can help keep decks honest.

[Mr. Safety]

Agreed. I doubt that they will ever reprint them for Standard, but I think that Standard could handle both. Modern would probably be more troublesome though. I would really like Wasteland in Standard. It can help keep decks honest.

Wasteland in standard would make me play standard again, honestly. It's been a while since there was a prime opportunity to play a good disruptive/control game (essentially something that even resembles a tempo-based control deck similar to legacy.) Wasteland in standard would make Mana Leak a helluva lot better. If they reprinted Daze alongside Wasteland? Gold.

EDIT: Force of Will for modern would mean that control could be an actual deck. It might tip the scales absurdly in the control direction (imagine U/W tron playing their big spells with Force in hand along with a card to pitch?) At that point, it would start becoming 'legacy lite', which is obviously what Wizards is trying to avoid.