Spectators ranting about other players punting

[lordofthepit]

There have been quite a few misplays made by players on the SCG Legacy camera who ended up performing quite well overall. That's okay, we all saw them, and the announcers pointed them out. Maybe you can mention it once or twice to a good friend, or if it's a subtle punt, post it on the appropriate thread as a teaching point for other players. There's no need to rant 50 TIMES?!?11!11 about it and post it all over Twitter like you just found the #cureforcancer #sooobad!!11

If you've never punted with thousands of dollars on the line, after a really long day of Magic when you probably want to go home, and with nerves possibly settling in (with or without many people watching), then congratulations, you're an awesome player. There should be nothing stopping you from making a professional career out of playing Magic, so other spectators can dissect your every move before realizing how awesome you are.

[Koby]

This is actually a very good point. Even the professional players misplay on camera at the large events. OK, well maybe not Jon Finkel, but everyone else does.

[Tammit67]

What exactly happened? I haven't seen any coverage.

[death]

I agree with you but when someone is punting as early as round 3 or 4, that's a different story.

[lordofthepit]

What exactly happened? I haven't seen any coverage.

There were quite a few misplays in every single round that I saw, going back the last few weeks. None of them stood out as being more egregious than others, although some were admittedly quite bad, but I think the players some benefit of the doubt. I can't even go 12 hours without taking a nap, let alone spend 12 hours playing Magic in a cramped room.

[SpikeyMikey]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but for me, it's incredibly nerve-wracking being on camera. I had a feature match on camera in KC last January and in all honesty, I was more worried about not crying or throwing up than I was about the game. At X-0, your opponents are all very good and you're trying like mad to stay in T8 contention through the bad matchups and the bad luck. You know that the room for error is miniscule. That adds a lot of pressure, which makes it that much easier to make a mistake, since you're not focusing on the game at hand. The difference in my stress level at X-0 or X-1 and X-2 or X-3 is enormous. Throw the extra pressure of thousands of people watching you at home on top of that and it's a nightmare.

[death]

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6100/antg.jpg
(this from last week) Hmm I have him dead on turn 2? Guess I'll pass the turn and see if his therapy hits.. Whoah

Didn't bother to watch tonight's finals, can't wait until the feed is up so I can post a giant pile of cards sometimes referred to as 'graveyard'.
Cards were everywhere, looked like he was digging through garbage to find out wth's been dredged.

[Jonathan Alexander]

This is actually a very good point. Even the professional players misplay on camera at the large events. OK, well maybe not Jon Finkel, but everyone else does.

He should've blocked though.

[boneclub24]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but for me, it's incredibly nerve-wracking being on camera. I had a feature match on camera in KC last January and in all honesty, I was more worried about not crying or throwing up than I was about the game. At X-0, your opponents are all very good and you're trying like mad to stay in T8 contention through the bad matchups and the bad luck. You know that the room for error is miniscule. That adds a lot of pressure, which makes it that much easier to make a mistake, since you're not focusing on the game at hand. The difference in my stress level at X-0 or X-1 and X-2 or X-3 is enormous. Throw the extra pressure of thousands of people watching you at home on top of that and it's a nightmare.

Just try and remember that they are probably going through the same thing. Maybe even use that to your advantage.

[Ziveeman]

99% of these people will never be good enough to be on camera...and yet they think they're better than these people. It irks me. You get a completely different view of the game when you're the one playing or if you're the one watching. The commentators also have decklists, which skew the viewer's perception of how the players are going to play.

It's gotten to the point where I don't even want to be on camera (and I've been featured several times) because of these idiots. Even if you win, you still lose.

[HokusSchmokus]

Still, I find it more irritating that two certain dredge players playing a 60 cards pile of shit(god those decklists...) can punt on Camera, win out, punt in every top8 game, win out. Oh, and this while playing suboptimal lists.Ok, this time dredge got second, but srsly did you see what he did there?
Sure it's easy to point out somebody misplayed, but sometimes you just have no choice but rant imo.

[wcm8]

Some of these punts are definitely outright misplays and are probably due to the aforementioned factors like fatigue, stress, simple oversight, etc.

I'd also say that some of these punts are due to players making wrong assumptions about what their opponent has or they are 'playing around' certain expected scenarios, etc. It's very easy to classify such a play as a punt if you know both players hands, whereas if you limit yourself to the perspective of just the one player, the punt might not seem so terrible at the time the decision was made, and was more of a punt in retrospect.

[Sloshthedark]

Still, I find it more irritating that two certain dredge players playing a 60 cards pile of shit(god those decklists...) can punt on Camera, win out, punt in every top8 game, win out. Oh, and this while playing suboptimal lists.Ok, this time dredge got second, but srsly did you see what he did there?
Sure it's easy to point out somebody misplayed, but sometimes you just have no choice but rant imo.

did you see what David Winsauer did in r 4? =)

I always thought there are poor players on SCG so the good ones win (seeing the same names -Thompson, Sacher etc. in top16 weekend after weekend), they left and someone has to win...

nevertheless Tampa had the most ridiculous coverage ever, ever =D
-R0 - Standard player plays the same deck... and wins R1...
-coverage starting with kid who plays Ad Nauseam into untapped opponent +1 card rather than tapped BBB floating ftw turn earlier...
-2 clowns with 4C (for hardcasting leylines) painter stubbornly hurkyl-recalling Jitte and -Maverick superstar top8er keeping playing it and searching for stony silence meanwhile, cause that's more fun...
-Dredge player who fails to find anything in his junkyard and dies horribly to goblin warstrike 4 turns and 30 minutes later...
-Foodchain that wins without Foodchain
-Merfolk guy who fails in turning his guys sideways
-High tide vs. 0clock 0protection.dec fun

can't wait to watch the T8 online... I have to sleep sometimes and no T8 Foodchain made me sad..

this can't be just being nervous, it's just camera, gp crowds are worse... I agree spectators may be harsh in judgement, but there is no chat anymore (which was hilarious) and it's not about some sub optimal or questionable plays but refusing to use brain in Magic (w deck you know) at all...

[dschalter]

did you see what David Winsauer did in r 4? =)

I always thought there are poor players on SCG so the good ones win (seeing the same names -Thompson, Sacher etc. in top16 weekend after weekend), they left and someone has to win...

nevertheless Tampa had the most ridiculous coverage ever, ever =D
-R0 - Standard player plays the same deck... and wins R1...
-coverage starting with kid who plays Ad Nauseam into untapped opponent +1 card rather than tapped BBB floating ftw turn earlier...
-2 clowns with 4C (for hardcasting leylines) painter stubbornly hurkyl-recalling Jitte and -Maverick superstar top8er keeping playing it and searching for stony silence meanwhile, cause that's more fun...
-Dredge player who fails to find anything in his junkyard and dies horribly to goblin warstrike 4 turns and 30 minutes later...
-Foodchain that wins without Foodchain
-Merfolk guy who fails in turning his guys sideways
-High tide vs. 0clock 0protection.dec fun

can't wait to watch the T8 online... I have to sleep sometimes and no T8 Foodchain made me sad..

this can't be just being nervous, it's just camera, gp crowds are worse... I agree spectators may be harsh in judgement, but there is no chat anymore (which was hilarious) and it's not about some sub optimal or questionable plays but refusing to use brain in Magic (w deck you know) at all...

People make bad plays all the time, they usually don't have thousands of people watching them live however. The illusion that coverage creates is that "everyone" notices things, when, in fact, what usually happens is that a few people notice things and people who didn't see it repeat it ad nauseum.

[Deviruchi]

I have never been recorded but I know that:

a) I would cast AdN when I can vs Dredge with 0 mana floating because I know I can easily win.
b) I would count my attack forces power to check if I can win.
c) ask anyone about how to play the deck so that for example I would know the Knight + Maze combat trick.
d)...
e)...

Some games are really bad but we all like to watch coverage so much. Not everyday we can see Finkel vs Kibler and unfortunately Legacy will never reach Pro Tour level.
I wouldn't mind to have so many big tournaments in my area so that I can grab any deck, don't care about my results and still have a blast like... 90% of SCG players.

[Gui]

All in all, it's really hard to determine what is a missplay and what is just another line of play, one that you didn't consider. Magic is all about figuring out what the opponent might do, and sometimes you worry about things inside games that is not seen outside. And also, sometimes you read your opponent to a more important line of play, one that might not be optimal without that read attempt.

Once I saw someone complaining about a player cracking a wasteland in a useless situation against Hive Mind, and it took me a whole day to realise the player had figured out whether the opponent had the red pact or not, to use as alternate plan. I don't remember the game precisely anymore, but I'm sure it was seen as a missplay by that time, and the Hive Mind's opponent actually won.

[dschalter]

All in all, it's really hard to determine what is a missplay and what is just another line of play, one that you didn't consider. Magic is all about figuring out what the opponent might do, and sometimes you worry about things inside games that is not seen outside. And also, sometimes you read your opponent to a more important line of play, one that might not be optimal without that read attempt.

Once I saw someone complaining about a player cracking a wasteland in a useless situation against Hive Mind, and it took me a whole day to realise the player had figured out whether the opponent had the red pact or not, to use as alternate plan. I don't remember the game precisely anymore, but I'm sure it was seen as a missplay by that time, and the Hive Mind's opponent actually won.

The Finkel-Kibler game was a good example of this (and of the "you have much more information" problem). Knowing that Kibler had multiple Galvanic Blasts, the natural thing to think was "will Finkel make the right move and play around Kibler having blasts?" He didn't, and thus the situation came to be seen in terms of Finkel simply making a mistake and not considering a possibility. As he explained afterwards, he was playing around a potential Inferno Titan; maybe that was the strictly correct play, but is an entirely reasonable line, one that's quite difficult to see when you know Kibler's hand.

[alderon666]

I got kind of annoyed last SCG broadcast when everytime someone cast Brainstorm the commentators said "Why is he doing that now, wasting the best card in his deck on turn 2/3/4... he should only cast that when he is about to die.". I do aggree that in 99% of the cases a turn 1 Brainstorm is just wrong, but I disagree with the idea of putting BS in a pedestal and there never being a good time to actually cast it.

[Lt. Quattro]

I looked away for a second but when I came back I heard the commentators and twitter users say in the match that was maverick vs dredge, the dredge player discarded his lion's eye diamond instead of playing it.

[Damoxx]

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6100/antg.jpg
(this from last week) Hmm I have him dead on turn 2? Guess I'll pass the turn and see if his therapy hits.. Whoah

Didn't bother to watch tonight's finals, can't wait until the feed is up so I can post a giant pile of cards sometimes referred to as 'graveyard'.
Cards were everywhere, looked like he was digging through garbage to find out wth's been dredged.

You also need to know that he had AdN, Rite, D.Rit, Land, Petal in his opening hand...

[Jonathan Alexander]

The Finkel-Kibler game was a good example of this (and of the "you have much more information" problem). Knowing that Kibler had multiple Galvanic Blasts, the natural thing to think was "will Finkel make the right move and play around Kibler having blasts?" He didn't, and thus the situation came to be seen in terms of Finkel simply making a mistake and not considering a possibility. As he explained afterwards, he was playing around a potential Inferno Titan; maybe that was the strictly correct play, but is an entirely reasonable line, one that's quite difficult to see when you know Kibler's hand.

I'm pretty sure that Finkel made a tweet about how he did in fact misplay. He had Mana Leak up, and had Kibler played Titan and Finkel Mana Leaked it, Finkel could've untapped, cast Captain, and won. Also, as AJ Sacher pointed out, the third blast didn't matter, the second was the one that mattered. Finkel would've been dead to any sweeper in place of the third blast.

Still, Finkel played brilliantly throughout the match, and it's been one of the best I've seen in ages. Also, regarding the statement that there's no Legacy at Pro Tour levels being played, I disagree with that. Sure, there's no Legacy Pro Tour or so, but there a lot of awesome players and sometimes, for GPs, even the pros play Legacy. Remember LSV's feature match in Providence last year, even though he lost, his play was amazing there.

Further, SCG Open coverage has become a bit boring I think. They don't cover awesome decks (due to a lack of those) and there really are some bad players who just have a lot of luck. Still, it makes a difference whether you're in a match or watching it, you see more cards from the outside, but you lose the read and don't catch bluffs as easily because you know what the players actually have most of the time.

[Bryant Cook]

Unfortunately, I watched this video live. It was so frustrating.

The plays are bad enough that I'm not putting it in the T.E.S. opening post.

[death]

If he had Petal Rite Land Ritual AdN, he could have gone off turn 1 knowing his opponent is on Dredge, not fearing a counter spell. I understand ANT players being scared going off with 0 floating but this guy is playing TES, meaning there's at least 3 C. Moxen in his list. Can't believe he passed another turn after drawing LED, rightfully his hand gets ripped by back to back therapies.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I agree. It's inexcusable to not go off here. I don't know whether he was on the draw or on the play, but on the play, the opponent needs to a) be playing Force of Will and b) actually have it. Going off from 20 (or 19) with Ad Nauseam in TES is almost a secured win. If it was on the draw, why would he not go off, knowing his opponent is on Dredge? It only gets worse.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Unfortunately, I watched this video live. It was so frustrating.

The plays are bad enough that I'm not putting it in the T.E.S. opening post.

I used to turn on the SCG feed on a regular basis. After that tournament I don't watch so much.

Bummer.

[xfxf]

If I'm not mistaken this was a VERY young lad and his facial expressions and hand gestures (inconfident, quick "pass" move) all showed how nervous he was. I can imagine being 13-15 years old, playing storm in Legacy, against a deck many Magic players don't know how to play against (I only know that I have to surgically extract their Narcomoebas and Cabal Therapies :)) and under the spotlight. Should be pretty easy to fall apart like that.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

If I'm not mistaken this was a VERY young lad and his facial expressions and hand gestures (inconfident, quick "pass" move) all showed how nervous he was. I can imagine being 13-15 years old, playing storm in Legacy, against a deck many Magic players don't know how to play against (I only know that I have to surgically extract their Narcomoebas and Cabal Therapies :)) and under the spotlight. Should be pretty easy to fall apart like that.

AJ Kerrigan didn't seem to have a problem.

[xfxf]

One kid being better than his peers doesn't make the others bad. I watched that live and got frustrated too. But again, he is very young. I really don't think that he is the best example about SCG opens misplays even though his is almost the worst one.

[Bryant Cook]

Rule # 76.

[xfxf]

Which is...?

[Damoxx]

Which is...?


try www.google.com (http://www.google.com)

[xfxf]

try www.google.com (http://www.google.com)

Aren't you smart? Try "American slang". I'll know where to look.

Bryant, you are very respected among the Storm players and deemed like a master so I can understand your "rule 76" attitude towards a younger padawan so to speak. I however think other players are just ego boasting over a kid's misplays and it's just weak. They should bash the Dredge player who discarded his LED for no good reason. Or better, buy a plane ticket for next week and show us all how it's done.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Aren't you smart? Try "American slang". I'll know where to look.

Bryant, you are very respected among the Storm players and deemed like a master so I can understand your "rule 76" attitude towards a younger padawan so to speak. I however think other players are just ego boasting over a kid's misplays and it's just weak. They should bash the Dredge player who discarded his LED for no good reason. Or better, buy a plane ticket for next week and show us all how it's done.

Driving*

[dsck]

Why arent there any "pros" playing on these events anymore? I cant enjoy watching scrubs scrubbing out :cry:

[Koby]

Why arent there any "pros" playing on these events anymore? I cant enjoy watching scrubs scrubbing out :cry:

Partly because there has been an American Grand Prix or Pro Tour every week since New Year's.

[Scordata]

Can we just call a spade a spade and say that some of these players are morons?

It WAS Florida, after all.

[Damoxx]

Can we just call a spade a spade and say that some of these players are morons?

It WAS Florida, after all.

Tis true. FL couldn't convict Casey Anthony...

[dahcmai]

I tend to punt when tired.



I've had people lift up my coffee cup and sit it back down. When I asked what they were doing, the response was "I wanted to know if I was going to win or not". I guess it's that bad.