Why is it acceptable for tournament organizers to do so little to prevent theft? [Archive]

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 11:24 AM

In 2005 most of our Magic collection, at least in terms of monetary value and including several Legacy decks, was stolen from my brother at Regionals. We had put real effort into accumulating Legacy staples up until this point and had a large number of duals, Survivals, Wastelands, Forces, etc., etc., in addition to things like my brother's pimped out Enchantress deck and basically all the valuable stuff we owned outside of Pile (early predecessor to Cube, don't worry about it.)

These cards were worth about a thousand dollars at the time, and the way Legacy prices have skyrocketed probably several times that now.

This basically forever crippled our ability, willingness or even desire to own a complete Legacy collection. We've taken a pretty minimalist approach to collection ever since and basically end up borrowing most of our cards from friends.

Matt at least could be somewhat blamed (and punched), because he left his backpack "hidden" under a chair for a few minutes to go use the restroom. A few months after that our friend Anwar asked a judge at a Starcity Duel for Duals (the Legacy Open predecessor back when duals were around $20 each) if he could watch a case of his cards for a few minutes, to which the judge agreed; however, when Anwar came back the judge had walked away and Anwar's cards were stolen.

The only real lesson I internalized from all this was extreme paranoia and disdain for the Magic playing community at large. I have fun playing Magic with my friends, but when I go to a large tournament an air of antisocial hostility pervades the events. The standby is that Magic players are just assholes, but this rarely seems to be the case in small venues. I wonder how much of this mistrust is chalkable to the very real and legitimate fear that someone you meet there is a thief.

I wonder if Wizards and major organizers like Starcity Games take this into account, because surely mistrust and animosity have some effect on depressing turnout to their events.

I wonder if they also consider the lost sales of people like me who are hesitant to invest much in Magic because of the insecurity of that investment in the face of rampant theft.

But I don't wonder too much because seven years on they still don't seem to really give a fuck, as illustrated by the outrageous theft of Justin Parnell's Cube (http://klugalters.blogspot.com/2012/03/theft-in-magic-community.html) and other shit going on at GP Baltimore.

As Matt Scott (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/mattscott-030212-grand-prix-baltimore-top-4-with-zombies/) has noted, the response of organizers to these thefts has time and again been apathy, blaming the victim, and just telling people to be more careful.

This problem has been going on for years. And I don't want to hear even the slightest regurgitation of ignorant bullshit from any mother fucker about how people have to just be more careful. Going to a Magic tournament should not be a fucking ordeal. Someone who attends dozens of these things a year should not be punished with having their Magic collection stolen because once they slip up.

I know of no effort at all that has been made in the past six or seven years by any organizer or by Wizards to halt this activity. So my question is; why is this apathy acceptable? How hard would it be to put cameras around the main hall of an event and implement a strict no hats, no hoods rule? Not fucking very is the answer to that question.

bruizar

03-07-2012, 11:32 AM

-Get cops involved with any attempt
-Don't bring your entire collection, just your deck + sideboard
-Don't use bags, carry it in the pocket of a hoody (with a zipper), so you have it in front of you at all times

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 11:34 AM

I don't really want to discuss how to try and mitigate the risk of theft on a personal scale. We've all been over that a hundred times. What I want to discuss is why such a predatory environment is allowed to exist in the first place when there are reasonable steps organizers could be taking to prevent theft from happening, and aren't.

gobblor

03-07-2012, 11:38 AM

Koby

03-07-2012, 11:40 AM

I don't think the culprits are generally members of the community; but rather transient opportunists who are aware of the value of such collections. It is unfortunate that with the increased value of cards/decks/Cubes/whathaveyou brings out scum low life who take any opportunity to profit off grieving someone at an event for the community.

It does really come down to the player, judges, and dealers to be on the lookout for such thieves - both at events and after. Contacting nearby dealers to be on the lookout for token cards from decks/collections will help identify the thieves and put a stop to this criminal behavior.

Said thieves aren't stealing cards to keep for their collection - they're looking to turn a quick dollar and move on to the next trick.

Wereodile

03-07-2012, 11:44 AM

xfxf

03-07-2012, 11:50 AM

I believe the mistrust is stemming from a multiple reasons among players. I quit Magic like 10-11 years ago just because of that and it prevented me actually enjoying the game for that time frame. It includes rippers, wanna be trade sharks, thiefs and some more.. I've had a decent number of cards stolen from my binder during trades while one guy occupying me the other guy removing several high value cards from my binder. You don't notice it until it's too late. That's why I strictly don't trade and purchase just the cards I need. I don't know how cost efficient it is compared to buying a bunch of boosters and constanlt trading for the stuff you need but at least I don't have to worry about theft etc. And from that mentality I don't carry anything other than my deck around when I go to events/stores. It's easier to protect your stuff that way even when you're going to the loo.

Coming back to the theft in organizations, I believe it's everbody's responsibility to take care of their cards and decks but a responsibility against themselves. The event organizers should have responsibilities providing a baseline security too against their customers. Hanging a sign saying that "watch your belongings, XYZ isn't responsible for any lost or stolen items" isn't enough. Even if they are lacking in preventative and detective solutions they should have some deterrent practices in place.

ReAnimator

03-07-2012, 11:59 AM

I would love to see a "safe" area for people to be able to leave cards at when they need to use the restroom etc. They would be staffed by people (judges?) who are trusted by the Organizer. Possible Procedure could be to ask for a piece of ID to be left with the cards and then you would need to present another piece to pick them up.

TO's just do not want the liability or responsibility of handling other peoples cards which is understandable but If I were to have something stolen from me at an event I wouldn't ever go back to that venue or any event put on by that TO period. I would also make sure I told as many people as I could that it happened which might deter people from attending those events in the future.

If I were a TO I would look at the risk of handling peoples collections vs possibly losing players over a theft.

Why is it the TO's responsibility?

If you are out to dinner with a girl at a nice restaurant and her purse gets snatched why in good gravy would it be the restaurant's fault?

If you have a giant event with 1000 people, there are going to be some scum bags, Magic tournaments aren't some giant hippy Kum-Ba-Yah festival of brotherly love, and there are tons of people walking around with literally thousands of dollars on them, why would you ever leave that unattended.
Imagine going to a sporting event and having a backpack filled with $5000 cash and a sign on it that says "This backpack has $5000 in it" would you ever just leave your seat with the bag sitting on it hoping for it to be there when you get back from the restroom?
Now imagine in this scenario that you go up to the security desk and tell them about your bag getting stolen? How is it their fault? what else should they have done? sure they'll try to help you find your bag just like a TO would but man this is no one's fault but your own.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 12:01 PM

Hmm I didn't know holding onto your own damn stuff was such an "ordeal". Here let me "regurgitate some ignorant bullshit" for you that my 4 year old cousin could understand.

1. Is it really that hard to take your own backpack with you to the bathroom? I have never had a problem with this.

2. Don't ask other people to watch your stuff , even your friends. The tournament organizers usually say something like this at the start.

3. If you feel like you are too handicapped to follow the first two rules then don't bring anything other than whats needed. Just bring your deck.

* I know I am coming off harsh and very much like a dick. It does suck that you and your friend's stuff got stolen and that people steal in general. However, it seems super easy to prevent and unless you are literally getting jumped by a group of people then you should never get anything stolen and its your own fault otherwise, not the TO's.*

Right, it's peoples' fault their shit gets stolen.

Except, wait, no, that's morbidly retarded.

It's a thief's fault that they steal and no one else's. What we can talk about is how to mitigate the actions of thieves. And asking only players and not the organizers to put any effort into preventing theft is inane nonsense.

Hopefully you're done regurgitating because there's nothing of value in anything you've said.

Wereodile

03-07-2012, 12:05 PM

The event organizers should have responsibilities providing a baseline security too against their customers. Hanging a sign saying that "watch your belongings, XYZ isn't responsible for any lost or stolen items" isn't enough. Even if they are lacking in preventative and detective solutions they should have some deterrent practices in place.

I agree 100% Especially the part in bold. I think the TO's should be trying to build an environment that players can feel safe in. If I had my choice of the event with wicked prize support but a complacent TO vs OK prize support and a TO who went above and beyond to help protect his customers, it's no contest the 2nd TO wins every time

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 12:09 PM

Why is it the TO's responsibility?

If you are out to dinner with a girl at a nice restaurant and her purse gets snatched why in good gravy would it be the restaurant's fault?

Are you kidding? Is this a joke or a parody of what an inane objection might look like?

Any restaurant worth two beans would give a fuck if it had a reputation for being a haven for thieves and would provide security to try and protect it's customers so that it doesn't lose business.

Wizards and Starcity and other organizers know they have a problem; they should certainly take steps to mitigate it.

If you have a giant event with 1000 people, there are going to be some scum bags, Magic tournaments aren't some giant hippy Kum-Ba-Yah festival of brotherly love, and there are tons of people walking around with literally thousands of dollars on them, why would you ever leave that unattended.
Imagine going to a sporting event and having a backpack filled with $5000 cash and a sign on it that says "This backpack has $5000 in it" would you ever just leave your seat with the bag sitting on it hoping for it to be there when you get back from the restroom?
Now imagine in this scenario that you go up to the security desk and tell them about your bag getting stolen? How is it their fault? what else should they have done? sure they'll try to help you find your bag just like a TO would but man this is no one's fault but your own.

Oh my God. It has nothing to do with fault. Stop trying to play the hardass cynic, you don't have the life experience to pull it off.

If an event organizer can make minimal effort to drastically reduce theft then why on Earth shouldn't they? To satisfy some retarded aesthetic of faux grizzled internet tough guys that think life should just be a constant struggle for survival?

I would love to see a "safe" area for people to be able to leave cards at when they need to use the restroom etc. They would be staffed by people (judges?) who are trusted by the Organizer. Possible Procedure could be to ask for a piece of ID to be left with the cards and then you would need to present another piece to pick them up.

TO's just do not want the liability or responsibility of handling other peoples cards which is understandable but If I were to have something stolen from me at an event I wouldn't ever go back to that venue or any event put on by that TO period. I would also make sure I told as many people as I could that it happened which might deter people from attending those events in the future.

If I were a TO I would look at the risk of handling peoples collections vs possibly losing players over a theft.

Agreed.

Koby

03-07-2012, 12:10 PM

"Your stuff is your stuff, until you stop watching your stuff" is a mantra that needs to be lived by. No one else is going to be responsible for your shit if you're not.

gobblor

03-07-2012, 12:11 PM

Bottom line is that you are responsible for your own things. Watch them closely and there will be no need for TO'S to do anything. This post is pointless now and in done talking to the wall, I'm out.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 12:17 PM

"Your stuff is your stuff, until you stop watching your stuff" is a mantra that needs to be lived by. No one else is going to be responsible for your shit if you're not.

Why?

I mean hi hello people, maybe you haven't noticed this thing we've been working on for ten thousand+ years called civilization. It's like, a lot of people get together and like, you know, cooperate and stuff?

I mean if we're talking about personal responsibility, right, great, awesome, that's fine, people should pick up those ticks if they haven't already. I certainly am careful as fuck with anything I own or am carrying at a large tournament.

But while personal responsibility is a necessary component in a discussion about theft at Magic tournaments, it is certainly not sufficient. It is impossible and impractical and unreasonable to expect everyone to by paying attention to their cards every second of every event that they ever go to.

What in good God's name is so fucking offensive to people about the idea of defense through depth? Judges already look out for thieves, to the extent they can; is that morally wrong? Should we tell judges to encourage theft to punish the unwary and satisfy this grimdark aesthetic of internet badasses? Or should we maybe further the effort we put into preventing theft and demand that organizers do the same to foster a community where people, you know, have some level of trust and respect for one another so that it resembles an actual fucking community and not Road Warrior?

Richard Cheese

03-07-2012, 12:18 PM

There was a thread about this kind of behavior at Gencon. I'm too lazy to go find it now but iirc, there was a suggestion of not allowing foot traffic between tables during rounds that seemed like a good idea with basically no overhead cost to implement.

Personally I've always wrapped the straps of my bag around the legs of my chair then kept my legs in contact with it during the match, but when people are having large chunks of their decks grabbed off the table right in front of them, you really have to try and do something about it.

@gobblor: Taking your bag with you to the bathroom is great, but collections have become so valuable you have incidents like that guy that got his head smashed into the wall while he was taking a piss so they could grab his bag.

I don't really want this to devolve into another reserved list debate thread, but this shit is only going to get worse as cards continue to gain value, and eternal events will be the prime targets. I'm probably not going to take anything with me to Indy except my deck, which is a real shame considering how fun trading can be, artist signings, etc.

Damoxx

03-07-2012, 12:19 PM

Koby

03-07-2012, 12:27 PM

Why?

I mean hi hello people, maybe you haven't noticed this thing we've been working on for ten thousand+ years called civilization. It's like, a lot of people get together and like, you know, cooperate and stuff?

I mean if we're talking about personal responsibility, right, great, awesome, that's fine, people should pick up those ticks if they haven't already. I certainly am careful as fuck with anything I own or am carrying at a large tournament.

But while personal responsibility is a necessary component in a discussion about theft at Magic tournaments, it is certainly not sufficient. It is impossible and impractical and unreasonable to expect everyone to by paying attention to their cards every second of every event that they ever go to.

What in good God's name is so fucking offensive to people about the idea of defense through depth? Judges already look out for thieves, to the extent they can; is that morally wrong? Should we tell judges to encourage theft to punish the unwary and satisfy this grimdark aesthetic of internet badasses? Or should we maybe further the effort we put into preventing theft and demand that organizers do the same to foster a community where people, you know, have some level of trust and respect for one another so that it resembles an actual fucking community and not Road Warrior?

There's scum bag in all walks of life. We also live in a nation that values Personal Property, and people are continually disappointed when they don't value their property with careful attention. I'm not saying that "watch your own shit" is the only option, but it's the first rule with regards to preventing theft.

Many TO's do run Lost & Found systems, work with players to ensure that the right people get the right stuff back, and watch over "shady" characters. It's a problem for the whole community indeed, and many staffs DO work to prevent the theft.

It's a multi-facet approach with on-site security at the entrances, eyes from the judges/staff/players at the venue, and good communication with the dealers. Most (>95%) people would do the right thing if they found a lost deck. The problem is that no one is keeping an eye on stuff that's not theirs. If someone isn't watching their stuff, there is no garentee that someone else is.

Almost every report of someone losing their stuff is due to not keeping a hand/eye on their own stuff; and by the time they realize it's gone the thief could already be out the door by then. How can we realistically prevent something like this?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 12:29 PM

Each player is responsible for his/her stuff. Life lesson, there are always d-bags, thieves and general scummy people. Why should the organizer have devote time/money/energy to babysit everyone's stuff? If a thief wants to steal, nothing is going to stop him.

Why would you even type that in seriousness. Of course things are going to stop him. For instance, hungry tigers with laser beam helmets. Like every card thief is not Lara fucking Croft.

So how about: Because they should show some fucking loyalty to customers by exercising a bit of fucking effort to protect those customers, because while any given thief isn't some unstoppable commando, it's true that no one is immune from being stolen from. Everyone is ultimately vulnerable to having a moment of lapsed concentration and a bit of bad luck. All the internet hardasses that imagine themselves grizzled veterans of the weary world are still vulnerable to having their cards slip away in a moment. A given player can reduce their exposure to theft, but they can't erase it.

Having your shit stolen is not a moral failing, even if you do something obviously foolish to increase that risk. The desire on the part of some to see some kind of "punishment" and avoid an actual community response to prevent these occurrences is nothing short of disgusting.

There's scum bag in all walks of life. We also live in a nation that values Personal Property, and people are continually disappointed when they don't value their property with careful attention. I'm not saying that "watch your own shit" is the only option, but it's the first rule with regards to preventing theft.

Many TO's do run Lost & Found systems, work with players to ensure that the right people get the right stuff back, and watch over "shady" characters. It's a problem for the whole community indeed, and many staffs DO work to prevent the theft.

It's a multi-facet approach with on-site security at the entrances, eyes from the judges/staff/players at the venue, and good communication with the dealers. Most (>95%) people would do the right thing if they found a lost deck. The problem is that no one is keeping an eye on stuff that's not theirs. If someone isn't watching their stuff, there is no garentee that someone else is.

Almost every report of someone losing their stuff is due to not keeping a hand/eye on their own stuff; and by the time they realize it's gone the thief could already be out the door by then. How can we realistically prevent something like this?

Two options already suggested;

1) Prevent milling between aisles during rounds, and

2) Cameras + a no hats/hoods policy.

On the personal solutions front, beyond the loop around the chair leg technology (which I'm a proponent of), someone on Reddit also suggested this thing (http://www.gizmag.com/go/3078/); set the child device to beep like crazy when it gets outside of thirty feet from the mother device. A bit expensive but worth it to protect either sizable collections or to set up a trap.

ReAnimator

03-07-2012, 12:47 PM

Are you kidding? Is this a joke or a parody of what an inane objection might look like?

Any restaurant worth two beans would give a fuck if it had a reputation for being a haven for thieves and would provide security to try and protect it's customers so that it doesn't lose business.

Wizards and Starcity and other organizers know they have a problem; they should certainly take steps to mitigate it.

Geez i'm not saying a restaurant wouldn't care and i didn't categorize it as a haven for thieves, but you know what? this does happen every single day in every big city. It's happened to my sister in a 4 star restaurant, it happened to my aunt in another city at a fancy restaurant, while they were sitting down someone grabbed their bags right off the back of their chair, once while being distracted. The restaurant staff were shocked too and gave my sister her meal for free cause they felt bad. But again what was the restaurant's roll in preventing this supposed to be? it wasn't a frequent occurrence and their clientele was certainly upscale. Do you know what would loose more business for the restaurant? having security like you suggest. Searching everybody that enters and leaves the restaurant and treating everyone like a criminal isn't going to help their bottom line at all or reassure anyone all it would do is advertise that there is a need for security.

For sure if there are easy and cheap steps for TO's to do, great i'm all for it. What should they be?

Oh my God. It has nothing to do with fault. Stop trying to play the hardass cynic, you don't have the life experience to pull it off.

If an event organizer can make minimal effort to drastically reduce theft then why on Earth shouldn't they? To satisfy some retarded aesthetic of faux grizzled internet tough guys that think life should just be a constant struggle for survival?

First of all you don't know fuck all about my life or my life experience, what has that got to do with anything? You think i'm cynical? fine, i think i'm realistic and i think you want to live in a commune of brotherly love. I'm not being some internet tough guy who thinks having your shit stolen is teaching a lesson, i'm just being realistic about large groups of people anywhere.
In the sporting event analogy, having security at the venue is the minimal effort to deter theft but their duties are obviously for other things too, and stuff still gets stolen. A friend of mine had his jacket stolen at a hockey game (it was a team jacket) he asked around all the people sitting around him and no one noticed a god damned thing because they were all watching the game. He didn't go up to security and ask if they had seen anyone wearing a team jacket cause that would be ridiculous.

Do i wish there wasn't theft? absolutely, i'm not sure exactly what these minimal efforts the TO's are supposed to do, i hope they work and if they are cost effective i hope they implement them, but it's not going to stop thievery completely, no way, the only sure fire way to do that is for everyone to watch their shit and watch out for other people.

Damoxx

03-07-2012, 12:53 PM

Why would you even type that in seriousness. Of course things are going to stop him. For instance, hungry tigers with laser beam helmets. Like every card thief is not Lara fucking Croft.

Never said they were Tomb Raiders. They are opportunists that will always steal when given the chance.

So how about: Because they should show some fucking loyalty to customers by exercising a bit of fucking effort to protect those customers, because while any given thief isn't some unstoppable commando, it's true that no one is immune from being stolen from. Everyone is ultimately vulnerable to having a moment of lapsed concentration and a bit of bad luck. All the internet hardasses that imagine themselves grizzled veterans of the weary world are still vulnerable to having their cards slip away in a moment. A given player can reduce their exposure to theft, but they can't erase it.

I had cards stolen at GenCon in 2001. Yes, I felt betrayed, but I learned a harsh lesson. Do I think the GenCon organizers should do more to prevent this, possibly, but I still went back the next year a little more aware.

Having your shit stolen is not a moral failing, even if you do something obviously foolish to increase that risk. The desire on the part of some to see some kind of "punishment" and avoid an actual community response to prevent these occurrences is nothing short of disgusting.

Ask anybody who had their shit stolen and they can tell you where they screwed up. I know what I did wrong and I never did it again. I accept the fact that there will always be more predators out there you think. Unfortunately we live in a society that, generally speaking, no longer cares about their neighbors stuff. Yes, I think this sucks, but all I can do is keep my eyes open for my stuff and try to help make my little area a little better. But there are some people that will not heed everyone's warnings about watching your own stuff and as a result will get their shit stolen.

I for one would support the no hats, no hoodies policy provided it had a "No Thug Pants" policy too. We have to keep these events somewhat classy. The no milling between tables is awesome too, I hate people standing over my shoulder when I play, especially when I don't know them.

Wereodile

03-07-2012, 12:55 PM

Two options already suggested;

1) Prevent milling between aisles during rounds, and

2) Cameras + a no hats/hoods policy.

Those ideas are good and low cost.

What about designated trading areas? One staff could be on hand just to make sure that no one is walking away with someones collection or stealing from binders.

With web cams and hard drive space being so cheap these days there's almost no excuse for a shop not to have at least one camera watching the event space or at least the exit.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 01:01 PM

@ ReAnimator: No one suggested mandatory body searches so that objection is irrelevant. Several non-invasive suggestions for TO that aren't too difficult to implement have been suggested already.

And there is no surefire way to prevent all theft. At least short of making each tournament an exercise in possible dystopian futures. But we can take different steps to mitigate risk, and can and should do so on multiple fronts. I don't think this is unrealistic; I think too many people are mentally prepared and trained to blame the victims of theft in this community and get actively indignant at the idea of even a minimal effort being made to reduce the problem in the community.

Like yes, Damoxx is right, every theft is ultimately a result of some mistake made on the part of the victim. But you would expect Magic players of all people to realize that it's impossible to play a perfect game. Everyone is going to make mistakes. I've never been personally stolen from at a Magic tournament, and I like to think of myself as being careful, paranoid really, about the possibility; but I'm perfectly aware of times where I've made myself vulnerable and I might have fallen victim to a chance thief, obvious only in retrospect. The luck that I've had in avoiding that personal experience doesn't entitle me to act as if others' victimization is deserved or should simply be shrugged off as the price they should pay for such failure.

Vacrix

03-07-2012, 01:01 PM

Just put out a fake deck box full of cheap cards. Wait for someone to pick it up and then remote detonate the box and set the thief on fire.. and get it on camera. Take that Lara Croft.

Seriously though, if you have a prank deck box that fucks with the thief hard.. something that you could noticeably get on camera.. like even a loud sounding alarm you could catch the thief in the act. If you put several of these decks throughout a tournament, its going to discourage thieves.

bruizar

03-07-2012, 01:03 PM

it's true that no one is immune from being stolen from. Everyone is ultimately vulnerable to having a moment of lapsed concentration and a bit of bad luck.

True it is. Personally, the only time I've been stolen from was when I was 13 carrying a Bazaar of Baghdad with me that I just bought a day before (15 euro back then, which was a lot of money for me). I haven't owned a Bazaar until I bought a playset for 150 euro a piece.

I seriously advise people against bringing their trade binders to tournaments. A tournament drains your energy, especially if you play complex decks. There will be times where you're so exhausted you can't pay attention to your deck, your trade stuff and the game at the same time. With the value of magic cards, its a hell of a lot easier for a thief to get away stealing at an MTG tournament, than it is for him to get away robbing a jewelry store.

TO's could simply say at the beginning of the tournament that whoever is caught stealing is reported to the police and with the DCI/will get a tournament ban. It may sound like saying it does nothing, but by simply saying it, thieves will be less at ease and might discourage the common card thief from stealing.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 01:03 PM

Those ideas are good and low cost.

What about designated trading areas? One staff could be on hand just to make sure that no one is walking away with someones collection or stealing from binders.

With web cams and hard drive space being so cheap these days there's almost no excuse for a shop not to have at least one camera watching the event space or at least the exit.

Also a good idea. I liked your idea of the safe area that's heavily monitored, possibly tagging backpacks entering/leaving, and think it could be implemented pretty easily.

menace13

03-07-2012, 01:22 PM

There should be cameras and security at any and all large gatherings of unsocial, awkward and broke teenagers.

Damoxx

03-07-2012, 01:24 PM

There should be cameras and security at any and all large gatherings of unsocial, awkward and broke teenagers.

And totally have some scantily clad women walk around. The reactions would be entertaining.

Richard Cheese

03-07-2012, 01:25 PM

Forgot to mention I also fill one of the pockets of my bag with scorpions.

03-07-2012, 01:41 PM

Moved to Community.

Parcher

03-07-2012, 01:59 PM

bruizar

03-07-2012, 02:00 PM

you guys played too much zendikar block

KevinTrudeau

03-07-2012, 02:15 PM

I will be wearing a fanny pack to the GP; I suggest you all do the same.

Also, IBA's right.

Vacrix

03-07-2012, 03:03 PM

I think that the idea of "bait" bags at larger tournaments has some merit. It would have to be either the TO, venue, or law enforcement doing it, otherwise there are too many legal complications with citizens trying to capture a would-be theif. But if you could get someone like Judge One-Eye from Chicago to lay out a trap with hidden cameras recording the event, it not only could catch the theif, but the knowledge of such a trap could do well in preventing further thefts.
Exactly. If the DCI fuck with one event to specifically catch some thieves, who is going to try it again when you get banned, public humiliation, cops get involved, etc..

Imagine if the guy opens the deck box and then gets sprayed in the face with that ink trap they put on clothes.

Tha Gunslinga

03-07-2012, 03:16 PM

Yes, theft has always been a problem in the past, but it has gotten significantly worse over the last year or two, as card prices have skyrocketed and as staples have grown increasingly expensive. Thieves have also grown increasingly bold. There was a deck grabbed off the table, DURING A MATCH, at Legacy Worlds when the player turned his back for a second to get something out of his bag. Someone was mugged in a bathroom for their cards recently. Someone grabbed a binder and ran off with it while the owner was trading out of it at a tournament.

Then there are the zillions of bags that were put under a table and stolen while the owner was playing. This stuff happens all the time, and it's not the fault of the victims. It's not just something that always happens and always will happen, it's something that's getting worse and should be stopped. Gencon 2011 had NO security guards in the TCG Hall. None. Zero. All they had to do was have a couple uniformed security guards or off-duty police officers and I think there would have been significantly less theft. Even an announcement about watching your bags would have helped.

birds of paradise2

03-07-2012, 03:16 PM

Right, it's peoples' fault their shit gets stolen.

Except, wait, no, that's morbidly retarded.

It's a thief's fault that they steal and no one else's. What we can talk about is how to mitigate the actions of thieves. And asking only players and not the organizers to put any effort into preventing theft is inane nonsense.

Hopefully you're done regurgitating because there's nothing of value in anything you've said.

What strikes me is the lack of common sense of those people. Leaving your backpack on the floor while going away for a few minutes? Did he left his wallet on the table as well?

Ignorant and careless people are always going to lose stuff, be it to theft or other reasons. What you're trying to do is putting the responsibility on the organizer. If SCG would start putting up cameras, safe areas etc. that would create a uncomfortable and hostile environment screaming "the theft is all over" which they won't do. What's the next step? Armed guards?

What those ignorant people need to do, is to use common sense. Hopefully they'll learn to not leave their thousands of dollars unwatched.
Is it their own fault that they lost it? Yes, probably since they wasn't careful enough. Did they deserve to lose their stuff due to theft? Of course NOT.

Oh, about having guards on site. I do think that could lead to even more theft. Having guards on site makes people relax and they might get to comfortable, maybe getting sloppy, which gives the thieves easier targets.

People need to be responsible of their own action (or lack off precautions in this case) instead of crying and putting responsibility on the TO. If you wanted someone to take care of you, then you had to pay up. I don't think that the grown-up crowd with common sense would be willing to pay extra dollars so the childish guys that ain't responsible with their property can have their stuff baby-sat.

csy

03-07-2012, 03:18 PM

I won't pretend that everyone has my collections best interests in mind. And you shouldn't assume I have yours. The TO is NOT responsible for some one saying "hey brb can you watch my bag?" the TO shouldn't be held responsible for some one bringing their entire collection to an event and LEAVING IT UNATTENDED! Im sorry but insure your collection of valuable cards if you're concerned with their safety. And maybe consider a large fanny pack or tether attached to your multiple thousand dollar honey pot.

or you know just go to tell the TO that you lost your stuff and ask, nay, demand they "fix it". I know plenty of people that have had their property stolen. Be it magic cards, cars, savings, and what have you's. It sucks, it happens, its going to continue to happen. The only way to prevent it is not doing it yourself and hoping no one does it to you.

You think they are going to start babysitting kids at events too? Or anything else people pray will always be monitored and protected from the hazards of mistakes and unclean environments.

Vacrix

03-07-2012, 03:32 PM

Seriously though... who leaves a $700 blank check just sitting there on the table.

nedleeds

03-07-2012, 03:38 PM

nedleeds

03-07-2012, 03:42 PM

There was a deck grabbed off the table, DURING A MATCH, at Legacy Worlds when the player turned his back for a second to get something out of his bag.

It also happened during vintage worlds where individual cards were swiped. We were both there ... the real problem at Gencon in my opinion is the spacing and the aisles during these events. There should be *no* spectators in the aisles during these events, and there should be a bit more space.

Gencon 2011 had NO security guards in the TCG Hall. None. Zero. All they had to do was have a couple uniformed security guards or off-duty police officers and I think there would have been significantly less theft.

Why should the people playing Harry Potter LARP subsidize the security for the horde of MTG misers trading in the CCG hall? Some rent a moron isn't going to change anything, he'll likely be disinterested, stoned and as likely as anyone to steal shit.

Even an announcement about watching your bags would have helped.

Signage, announcements, I agree would all be helpful.

lordofthepit

03-07-2012, 03:46 PM

thecrav

03-07-2012, 03:47 PM

To summarise this thread:

TheInfamousBearAssassin‎: It's all someone else's fault my stuff got stolen.

Everyone else: No it's not, be responsible.

Can we just stop now and agree to disagree?

MirrorMask

03-07-2012, 03:58 PM

Had a somewhat relevant situation myself. No, there weren't any magic cards involved but its the same. I went to a net cafe 5 years ago. I hanged my coat at the back of my chair with and Mp3 and a cell phone in the inside pocket. I was playing happily my game and when I left I noticed my stuff GONE! It was certainly MY fault ALONE for leaving my stuff unguarded BUT the internet cafe had cameras so I asked the owner if any cameras had caught any action and he told me that he only had ONE camera installed to monitor the register. You ask what the TO can do? Well in some cases this is part of a solution : USE FUCKING CAMERAS. If the cafe owner wasn't so stingy he would have installed 2 more cameras and I would have probably found the thief because this place was probably where he used to hang out so even if he wasn't there at the time (and he wasn't of course) he could catch him another time. It is quite different with so many people but if something happens then you can use the video to find the thief. If, on top of this, allow entrance ONLY to those with a DCI number as well as a photo ID catching thieves will be much easier. If you are not part of the community there is no need to accept you.But on the other hand If you don't like giving personal information then you will have to deal with thefts yourself I guess.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 04:11 PM

These four posts are basically the same so I'll focus my attention on the least incoherent of them.

They aren't law enforcement. They have no way of being an arbiter of who owns what. It's not like you catalog your possessions upon entering the rented facility. So for example you are playing EDH and I swipe your Mishra's Workshop off the table ... you cry to the tourney organizer, somebody sees me with a workshop in my binder?

Your possessions are your responsibility, assault, theft and other crimes are the business of the police. The organizer has no authority over anyone, other than the right to ask them to leave the premises. Most theft seems to happen in things not directly related to the tournament, during trading, or cubing or other unrelated shit.

Even worse in your whining ... you probably entered the facility for free.

There is not a coherent objection in this post.

Also,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM

I won't pretend that everyone has my collections best interests in mind. And you shouldn't assume I have yours. The TO is NOT responsible for some one saying "hey brb can you watch my bag?" the TO shouldn't be held responsible for some one bringing their entire collection to an event and LEAVING IT UNATTENDED! Im sorry but insure your collection of valuable cards if you're concerned with their safety. And maybe consider a large fanny pack or tether attached to your multiple thousand dollar honey pot.

or you know just go to tell the TO that you lost your stuff and ask, nay, demand they "fix it". I know plenty of people that have had their property stolen. Be it magic cards, cars, savings, and what have you's. It sucks, it happens, its going to continue to happen. The only way to prevent it is not doing it yourself and hoping no one does it to you.

You think they are going to start babysitting kids at events too? Or anything else people pray will always be monitored and protected from the hazards of mistakes and unclean environments.

I really expect anyone who plays Magic to understand the difference between all and some.

What strikes me is the lack of common sense of those people. Leaving your backpack on the floor while going away for a few minutes? Did he left his wallet on the table as well?

Ignorant and careless people are always going to lose stuff, be it to theft or other reasons. What you're trying to do is putting the responsibility on the organizer. If SCG would start putting up cameras, safe areas etc. that would create a uncomfortable and hostile environment screaming "the theft is all over" which they won't do. What's the next step? Armed guards?

What those ignorant people need to do, is to use common sense. Hopefully they'll learn to not leave their thousands of dollars unwatched.
Is it their own fault that they lost it? Yes, probably since they wasn't careful enough. Did they deserve to lose their stuff due to theft? Of course NOT.

Oh, about having guards on site. I do think that could lead to even more theft. Having guards on site makes people relax and they might get to comfortable, maybe getting sloppy, which gives the thieves easier targets.

People need to be responsible of their own action (or lack off precautions in this case) instead of crying and putting responsibility on the TO. If you wanted someone to take care of you, then you had to pay up. I don't think that the grown-up crowd with common sense would be willing to pay extra dollars so the childish guys that ain't responsible with their property can have their stuff baby-sat.

Your argument is that if more steps were taken to make theft hard, more theft would happen.

I bet you also imagine that condom use increases the spread of HIV.

To summarise this thread:

TheInfamousBearAssassin‎: It's all someone else's fault my stuff got stolen.

Everyone else: No it's not, be responsible.

Can we just stop now and agree to disagree?

http://i.imgur.com/Cgpdc.png

Check out the reading comprehension on this guy.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have never had my stuff stolen at a Magic tournament myself. My brother did get a lot of our shit stolen in a momentary lapse of judgment. Did I call him an idiot for that? Yes.

But shit happens. Anyone can be stolen from. Absolutely no one, even if they bring nothing but their own deck- and a deck + sideboard in Legacy can be plenty investment enough- can guarantee that they are keeping it secure 100% of the time in every tournament that they go to. It's a numbers game. Magic players of all people should realize this; you can do things to improve your odds but you can't fundamentally remove chance from life. Sometimes you do something stupid and no one takes advantage of the lapse to steal your shit. Sometimes you do everything right except blink for twenty seconds at one tournament and you're out $1000. Don't even try to pretend you're a walking talking Alcatraz over here, it's laughable.

Should players take the steps, and be prompted to take the steps, to reduce their exposure to theft? Yes. Should Judges and other players keep an eye out for theft, and traders keep an eye out for shady goings on? Yes. Should TOs take more effort to put reasonable and nonintrusive steps in place to reduce the opportunity for theft and increase the chances of catching thieves? Yes. None of these things are contradictory and all are complementary to one another. Defense through depth. It has nothing to do with "fault" because no one is at fault in a theft except the thief.

So no, we can't agree to disagree. I can't say it's because your opinion is stupid and ignorant and petty, because that would be a flame, but, well, I can't agree to disagree certainly.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 04:16 PM

IBA, how much do you think tournament organizers should do to prevent theft (serious question)?

I mean, policies to prevent theft can run the whole gamut from "put up signs reminding us to watch our possessions" to "TSA-style security checks, followed by frisking and public colonoscopy".

I mean I already answered this. Some pretty effective and low effort ways to mitigate theft that TOs could put into place:

- Prevent players from walking around between tables during rounds. Cost: None.
- Put a couple of cameras on the hall recording shit and institute a no-hat, no-hood, no-head-covering-of-any-kind policy that makes it easier to identify theft after the fact. Cost; Couple of cameras.
- Have a safe area with tags for bags where people can keep their cards. Cost: Max one guy watching shit, probably not even that since it can be where you have the head staff sitting anyway.

Beyond that both TOs and players can and maybe should run a some "sting" operations as discussed to catch thieves.

jandax

03-07-2012, 04:17 PM

I'd say this topic is already beat to death. But it's definitely good for a few more pages.

Good reads.

Edit:

Cost of guy watching shit at a safe area should be zero. Give that responsibility to the lvl 0 noob judge who's got to take exams. All the bags sit against the wall, with space between him and the rest of the hall. The area is roped off so it's painfully obvious if anyone is trying to get past him to get at the bags.

Tha Gunslinga

03-07-2012, 04:17 PM

Why should the people playing Harry Potter LARP subsidize the security for the horde of MTG misers trading in the CCG hall? Some rent a moron isn't going to change anything, he'll likely be disinterested, stoned and as likely as anyone to steal shit.

There were thefts involving other CCGs as well. This is not just a Magic problem. There are plenty of decent security guard firms out there, or you can hire off-duty cops. Gencon passes are expensive enough for the company to hire a few guards.

Koby

03-07-2012, 04:26 PM

Oddly enough, the major reports of theft occurred when YuGiOh events happened nearby to Magic events. The Magic community generally has respect for one another, but when you introduce opportunists with the knowledge and know-how to snatch up cards with $$$ printed on them, that's when theft can occur.

Wereodile

03-07-2012, 04:31 PM

Cost of guy watching shit at a safe area should be zero. Give that responsibility to the lvl 0 noob judge who's got to take exams. All the bags sit against the wall, with space between him and the rest of the hall. The area is roped off so it's painfully obvious if anyone is trying to get past him to get at the bags.

Yes, Clubs have coat checks so why can't MTG events have a bag check. Hell charge people $5 a bag and make some money off of it, even at $10 a bag it's worth it for a little piece of mind.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 04:35 PM

I mean it's worth pointing out that providing a safe and secure environment in which people feel more comfortable playing, trading, buying etc.. should be SCG's, or any other large organizer's, starting goal based purely on selfish greed. Wizards should want this on its own merits, forget public relations. There's a huge hidden cost in depressed turnout and player participation and players lost to theft that major Magic retailers should already fucking care about.

birds of paradise2

03-07-2012, 04:42 PM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 04:47 PM

You make this sound like it's a big problem, which it isn't. We get it, you've lost some cards, got furious and blame TO for it.
People not feeling safe at SCG sites, really?

Have you ever wondered what it might be like to read a thread, and post an informed and productive response?

It's actually pretty rewarding, you should give it the old college try sometime.

GtF

03-07-2012, 04:56 PM

It is a big problem. At several large GPs I've gone to, there have been tons of thefts, and at gencon last year. Sometimes they catch people, but usually not. People in this thread are being completely idiotic and cavalier about it. It's not like getting stuff stolen is always completely your fault or never your fault, there is a grey area. That grey area gets shifted depending on how much effort the TO is willing to put in to make thefts less likely to occur. And that is a function of how much they're willing to spend.
Usually at every GP I go to now, they have the obligatory "watch your stuff" announcement before round 1. Sometimes they unfortunately wait until a bunch of stuff has been stolen, then make the announcement. Basically if they don't do it at the beginning, they end up having to do it later, like clockwork.
The bag check thing probably won't happen because of liability issues. The camera thing also probably won't happen either because of cost, but I think this would be the most effective thing by far - much moreso than security guards. Preventing people not playing from being in the playing area would be nice too, and not just because of theft, and it wouldn't cost anything extra.

hyperchord24

03-07-2012, 04:59 PM

There must be an analogy to make IBA's argument make sense. I don't get how it's so hard to understand that organizers might care if there is rampant theft at their events.

Do concert organizers/arenas care if stuff gets stolen from their patrons? How about at stadiums/ball parks/fields? Do inner city parks get monitored regularly? I genuinely don't know the answers to these questions.

Cops would probably care if there was rampant theft at a regular gathering at a fixed location. The fact that these events move from city to city makes it hard to involve authority.

jrw1985

03-07-2012, 05:09 PM

Cuz security/surveillance costs $$$ ?

That $30 entry fee a couple hundred players drop and the, like, $200 vendor fee (pulling this outta my ass) a couple dozen vendors drop can't leave much left over for the TO. Between payouts, facility rental, live-streaming event coverage and the cost of paying, transporting, and housing event staff, there can't be much budgeted for additional security/surveillance. Taking into account that convention centers and the like will probably insist that you contract their security staff for additional security (AKA BIG$$$$$$$) there's just no way a low-rent event like a Legacy tournament could possibly cover it.

AAAAAnnnnnnddddd

I don't think tournaments are profit-driven events for anyone except the vendors anyway. SCG and Wizards both are probably using tournaments as promotional tools to drive sales/memberships, meaning they're probably making a super-slim margin to begin with, or just aiming to break even.

If a TO wanted to bump up security they'd undoubtedly have to charge more. Magic is already an inherently pricey game aimed at kids and young adults that aren't exactly raking it in anyway (how many of you borrow decks/cards for tournaments?). I doubt a healthy, competitive event circuit would even be sustainable if the TOs charged the additional $10-$20 per entrant necessary to make theft at tournaments unprofitable.

So there's that.

Anusien

03-07-2012, 05:11 PM

- Prevent players from walking around between tables during rounds. Cost: None.
Considering this is the policy at Professional REL events, I can tell you: this is probably not feasible. Even there, it's an uphill battle. Players routinely ignore you. It has significant costs in logistics and personnel. And I'm not sure how effective it could be done at a 1200 person event.

mini1337s

03-07-2012, 05:23 PM

If someone breaks into my home, do I blame the police? I understand your point; certainly they could patrol my neighborhood, using their visibility to detour theft, but ultimately, it would be impossible for them to prevent it.
To touch on a previous suggestions, tournament organizers could order security, but ultimately, it is an expense (where I work, we have often hire per-hour security, at a contracted rate of $22 and change an hour) with little gain. Realistically, what would security accomplish in a tournament setting? Distinguishing a single backpack amongst a several hundred is a task that seems impossible outside of invasive procedures when you enter and exit the venue.
It is deplorable that people will stoop to such levels and I can only imagine the frustration of having a Magic collection stolen. It’s unfortunate that the reality is nothing new; at the end of the day, the best protection we have is to safeguard our valuables. My advice is to bring only what you need, and be vigilant with what you have. Cards are no different than money in many respects, so do not treat them any differently.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 05:36 PM

I don't know how many times and in how many ways I can say this; blame has nothing to do with it. You don't have to blame TOs to say that they should be expected to take what reasonable and low cost alternatives are available to them in order to mitigate theft. Which they should already want to do because it's in their own best interests.

Unless they're just cynically banking on the short term gains of buying stolen property to sell at a markup at the long-term cost of depressing the demand for cards and player turnout.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 05:49 PM

Considering this is the policy at Professional REL events, I can tell you: this is probably not feasible. Even there, it's an uphill battle. Players routinely ignore you. It has significant costs in logistics and personnel. And I'm not sure how effective it could be done at a 1200 person event.

Then clearly there isn't the will to enforce it, and needs to be. That's a ridiculous defense. Would you apply it to any other aspect of rules enforcement? "Well, we told players not to gamble on the outcome of matches but they just ignored us." "I told this guy not to draw extra cards but he told me to fuck off."

Wizards and TOs just clearly lack the will to prevent theft comparable to their desire to prevent cheating; and I think the attitude prevalent in this thread, that theft is some sort of deserved punishment for momentary carelessness, has a lot to do with that.

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-07-2012, 05:54 PM

Imagine going to a sporting event and having a backpack filled with $5000 cash and a sign on it that says "This backpack has $5000 in it" would you ever just leave your seat with the bag sitting on it hoping for it to be there when you get back from the restroom?
Now imagine in this scenario that you go up to the security desk and tell them about your bag getting stolen? How is it their fault? what else should they have done? sure they'll try to help you find your bag just like a TO would but man this is no one's fault but your own.

I'm glad this example was brought up. You're right that the patrons of a three star restaurant would be insulted at the idea of a bag check, however, large sweaty dudes without deodorant aren't possessed of the same delicate pride.

http://dc.about.com/od/spectatorsports/a/FedExField.htm - Under the heading "Security"

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/chc/ballpark/information/index.jsp?content=security

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/ballpark/security.jsp

None of these measures would deter me from a tournament I wanted to play in, because I'm not a thief.

I don't think anyone thinks these measures are possible for people organizing a 50-man tourney. But for SCG Opens and WotC-backed events, expecting some sort of security measure is actually totally reasonable. It might increase the entry fee by 5 bucks. Maybe. That's a terrible argument against the idea - look at the prices on the secondary market. People are willing to spend a lot of money on this hobby; no one is going to be deterred by these measures unless they're a thief.

As a note of more interest to those interested in logic, its structure, and how individuals contradict themselves, I people to contemplate the attitude in this thread, with this: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23300-Spectators-ranting-about-other-players-punting

So we can accept that people can make play mistakes after hours of playing Magic, but not that their thinking could be slowed or impaired in making other decisions? Or simply becoming forgetful?

Crimes of opportunity can never be fully stopped. But many reasonable and cost-effective security measures can be put into place by large TOs to help reduce their rate.

The only mentality that could really oppose these sorts of reasonable measures is the sort that looks at unfortunate events in the world and says "Random misfortunes happen, and it's scary to think they might happen to me, so I'm going to assume that every victim did something to earn the arbitrary crime or accident visited on them. Then it's not so scary."

Which is so Puritanical it's absurd.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2012, 06:13 PM

I mean I don't want to accuse anyone of being a thief, but Spatula is certainly right in that it's difficult to think of a believable reason that anyone would evince moral outrage at the idea of demanding some more active prevention on the part of TOs, within perfectly sane limits, short of their being a thief. That or some retardedly faux-grizzled internet warrior trying to put on a world-weary persona. Skip the imaginary fedoras and let's us proceed with the insanely reasonable presupposition that everyone wants to reduce theft and we should all take some perfectly reasonable steps to do that.

But people with low post counts popping out of the woodworks to say that TOs shouldn't do anything because it's each person's responsibility alone and there's some great moral onus to keep it that way sounds an awful lot like scumbags farming, to be quite honest.

mini1337s

03-07-2012, 06:54 PM

But people with low post counts popping out of the woodworks to say that TOs shouldn't do anything because it's each person's responsibility alone and there's some great moral onus to keep it that way sounds an awful lot like scumbags farming, to be quite honest.
Maybe should get off your high-horse/pony and look at the situation realistically. Increases in security need to be paid for, and that money has to come from somewhere. The people who are being taken advantage of are the ones who set themselves up for failure; if you leave $5000around in a public area, be it a convention centre or MacDonalds, expect to get burned. People who are sound in their judgement shouldn't have to pay to protect those who are not. You should bring what you need to the tournament, or accept the risk that there are people who will take advantage of you.
Having your shit stolen isn't exclusive to Magic. Be careful and protect what you own, even if it means leaving it home in a lock box.

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-07-2012, 07:00 PM

Maybe should get off your high-horse/pony and look at the situation realistically. Increases in security need to be paid for, and that money has to come from somewhere. The people who are being taken advantage of are the ones who set themselves up for failure; if you leave $5000around in a public area, be it a convention centre or MacDonalds, expect to get burned. People who are sound in their judgement shouldn't have to pay to protect those who are not. You should bring what you need to the tournament, or accept the risk that there are people who will take advantage of you.
Having your shit stolen isn't exclusive to Magic. Be careful and protect what you own, even if it means leaving it home in a lock box.

Both convention centers and McDonalds have security measures in place for the protection of their clientele.

JBlaze

03-07-2012, 07:02 PM

xfxf

03-07-2012, 07:21 PM

A lot of people start playing this game when they were a kid and then they carry their childhood mentality with them regarding gaming. When you are a kid it's OK to act with the rules of nature, when you are a grown up you learn that there are basic rules and safeties which can be reasonably expected.

When you go out to have fun you can reasonably expect the venue to have some level of security measures in place. You can get your wallet stolen but then you can ask for camera recordings, call out the security guards etc. This goes for shopping malls, cinemas, night clubs etc. This is meant for providing a safe environment to customers. When you go golfing you don't worry about paying attention to your precious clubs because they are worth something and they might get stolen. When you go skiing and make a stop to have a lunch you can leave your gear outside and expect to find it there when you go out. Nobody calls you a noob and say "dude, it's your fault. finders keepers!"

It's only reasonable to expect "some" level of support in terms of safety from the TOs. Yes, they do have limits, but the mentality of posters here talking as if they have no responsibility and as if it's reasonable to get your stuff stolen because you are not vigilant at all times makes no sense. I should be expected to act up to a reasonable level of caution with my stuff but if things are getting snatched right under my nose (opposite table, under my chair, from my binder etc.) the TOs should be backing me up with their controls in place.

MaximumC

03-07-2012, 07:24 PM

xfxf

03-07-2012, 07:28 PM

As for recommending controls, one just came to my mind.

Bags will be tagged upon entry with your credentials. When you are leaving the venue your bag tags will be verified with your proof of ID. The tags will be like festival bracelets so that you won't be able to re-attach them once you cut them off. In this situation someone can still snatch your bag, empty it into their bag and leave the place. So your bags will also be weighed at the entrance and the amount will be written in the tag. If, when leaving there is a significant difference it's obvious that there are more things in the bag than just a few more newly traded/bought cards in the venue.

This is not a perfect measure but makes it considerably harder to steal multiple bags as a coordinated operation or stealing whole collections with cubes/binders/decks etc. And it's probably only applicable to big events such as GPs and SCG opens but still it's something.

rxavage

03-07-2012, 07:30 PM

I think violence is the justifiable solution. Thieves should have their worthless asses beat severely, something they wont ever forget... even if its the only thing they ever remember again. I will not hesitate to "subdue" any thief I catch in the act, my property or not. And TO's should bear some responsibility to ensure they provide a safe and comfortable environment, which is unlikely to happen until more people become vocal and the TO's pockets start getting lighter. They don't care if your property is stolen as long as it isn't theirs sadly, and a majority would probably buy your stolen cards knowingly if the price was right.

Kich867

03-07-2012, 07:35 PM

As an attorney, I am fascinated by the possibility of someone bringing an action for premises liability or negligence in these circumstances. I have no idea, off the top of my head, whether it would succeed, but it's interesting.

The problem probably is that, as valuable as Magic cards are, they're small potatoes in the legal world. You got 10,000.00 worth of cards stolen? Meh. Call the personal injury attorney when it's up to 100,000.00, and it might be worth a contingency.

This is all another way of saying: yes, other people may be to blame, but you are better off just not having the problem in the first place. So, for pete's sake, do what people in this thread are suggesting and protect yourself.

But that's not really what's being posited. It's just someone saying "Hey look, why aren't TO's doing more about this?" and people are responding by saying "Well it's your fucking fault." Which is, as he's accurately portrayed, strictly an internet tough guy mentality. If we were to have an actual conversation without time gaps (the unfortunate position forums are put in) I would say "TO's should do more about stealing" and they would say "Well it's your fault it's stolen." and I would respond, "That's not what I said, I'm saying regardless, they should do more about it because they're in a position of power to do so at little to no cost to themselves and actively choose not to." to which I believe a reasonable person would say, "Yeah it's fucked up that people steal things, there's no reason they couldn't pitch in to help stop it."

There is no possibility of not having the problem in the first place, I assessed my deck's worth (UR Delver) at about $850.00. Not including the sideboard, then it's closer to $900.00. The suggestion of "Don't bring something people would steal to a tournament" is tantamount to not competing--which is an option for sure but not for the people that actually want to compete.

The knee-jerk reactions in this thread without taking time to read it (holy shit 3 pages guys) are so profound I'm surprised half of you can even stand after these posts.. :eyebrow:

Solaran_X

03-07-2012, 07:35 PM

Sell some cards. Buy a gun. Be a hard target just like Jean Claude Van Damme. Tournament organizers should protect us but they don't we have to protect our selves. Self defense is the right or every man. I don't bring heat to local events but if you see me at a large event you better believe I'm gonna be strapped. Now if i can just find someone to watch my gun while I go to the bathroom...
As someone who is licensed to carry concealed and owns a Glock 17, I can comment that (unfortunately) you can be legally denied entry into a privately owned facility (like the Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis for this weekend's GP) if you are carrying. Sad, but true - if I am carrying at the GP and someone finds out and reports me...that is actually a felony because the venue in question (I already checked the rules put in place by Lucas Oil Stadium's owners - and the law that nullifies those rules isn't up for a vote until March 20th of this year) prohibits firearms on the grounds.

Of course, this means nothing to someone who is hellbent on crime - just like those little 2" square stickers banks put in their windows with a picture of a gun and a crossed circle over it do absolutely nothing to prevent criminals from robbing them. All they do is prevent law abiding citizens, like myself, from carrying my legally registered and legally concealed firearm into the building.

The LGSes in my area know me and know that I carry. And they don't care. But some places do have issues with people carrying their sidearms, and put rules in place to prevent those of us who do legally carry from carrying inside their establishments. Not that anyone who illegally carries would both paying attention to those rules.

mini1337s

03-07-2012, 08:01 PM

Solaran_X

03-07-2012, 08:31 PM

The problem with the weight and tag solution seems pretty obvious. What if I come in with a bunch of bulk to sell? Or I buy a rather large amount of cards? In those two situations, my exit weight would be drastically different from my entering weight.

MaximumC

03-07-2012, 09:36 PM

If we were to have an actual conversation without time gaps (the unfortunate position forums are put in) I would say "TO's should do more about stealing" and they would say "Well it's your fault it's stolen." and I would respond, "That's not what I said, I'm saying regardless, they should do more about it because they're in a position of power to do so at little to no cost to themselves and actively choose not to." to which I believe a reasonable person would say, "Yeah it's fucked up that people steal things, there's no reason they couldn't pitch in to help stop it."

I'm not sure everything you are saying here is true, which is why it's an interesting question. Tenants sometimes sue landlords over theft occurring out of their apartments. This is very similar to the magic theft cases, because it presents the same problem: the real "bad guy" may not be identifiable at all.

In those cases, where states allow it, the question is whether the landlord did something independently negligent, not installing locking windows in a neighborhood full of known crime. But, the negligence of the victim also factors in. If the victim left the front door wide open, then window locks or not, the victim will not be able to push liability on the landlord, at least not entirely.

The analogy here is whether the TO or the player was negligent in permitting the theft. No one here is blaming the victim as compared to the THIEF; they are apportioning blame to the victim as compared to the TO. That seems entirely appropriate.

Who REALLY has a low-cost, easy method of preventing theft in a huge room of nerds? The TO, who has to pay for each body he has on the ground working for him? Or the individual who can keep their backpack looped around their shoulders at all times? I'm not suggesting I know the answer, but I am suggesting its a very real question.

hyperchord24

03-07-2012, 10:50 PM

Who the fuck brought morality in here? It's all about money. You would think WotC or TOs would want to give their customers what they want: fun. Presumably if they don't, they will loose money. Getting cards stolen isn't fun. Is it enough to where they loose business/clientele? That's where the real issue lies. If WotC or TOs start loosing business and they think rampant theft at events is to blame, they will do something about it. It makes you wonder what they think of the issue. Get "blame" the fuck out of this thread.

Kich867

03-07-2012, 10:56 PM

I'm not sure everything you are saying here is true, which is why it's an interesting question.

It is true. You're addressing the question / point that others are bringing up that isn't in relation to what the topic is actually about. IBA has stated several times that this topic has absolutely nothing to do with blame, the topic, strictly, is that tournament organizers could implement measures to help (note: help, not stop, this isn't directed at you but people are mind bogglingly stupid when they respond to this and say that there's no way to stop it, that's not the point, jesus tap dancing christ) deal with the rate of theft and are not doing so.

Let's just objectify this for a second, if I said: "There exists a way an organization that hosts events could to help prevent theft, but they are not.", how is "The people that are being stolen from are not careful enough." a reasonable response. In fact, I would question both A: the sanity and B: the intelligence of who I'm speaking to. I never mentioned people or their responsibility and their response has nothing to do with the organization I'm referring to.

It's like saying "McDonalds could take measures to reduce the fat in their foods." and someone responding "Well the people eating it aren't being conscious enough of their diet."

And that's all well and good, but that doesn't at all change what I just said, so what the fuck are they even talking about?

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-07-2012, 11:35 PM

Fucking exactly.

If you come across a man who has just been stabbed, did you stab him? Are you responsible for causing his wound?

No.

Are you morally obligated to extend what help you can?

Yes.

Is it in your best interest to promote a society where this is the norm, rather than a society where the assumption is that the stabbee "should have been more careful"?

Yes.

This isn't complicated.

Phoenix Ignition

03-08-2012, 01:20 AM

And the true answer to the question has clearly been shown. People's attitudes about theft are the problem. I have a feeling it's coming from the fact that these people think they are bulletproof. Sure, theft may be a statistic that happens to 0.1677% of people at tournaments, but it couldn't happen to me, I never leave any of my stuff alone, I watch it at all times, and I only bring what's necessary to play in the tournament. Blaming the victim seems like the obvious choice, since I'm not stupid enough to leave a thousand dollar deck unattended.

But it's not just a meaningless statistic (even though I made up that number, so it is). Regardless of what you do to prevent theft it still happens. You can't be bulletproof. What are you going to do, not go to the bathrooms and get your head slammed into a wall? You can take precautions, like never peeing, but what about when someone steals half of your deck while you're playing a game? Not going to turn around at any point ever? What if the clock is behind you and you need to know how much time is left? What happens when someone cuts the straps off your backpack to take it from your chair?

If a good thief wanted to they could steal from anyone at any tournament. I guarantee it isn't just the victims fault, even though a lot of the time they could have been fucking Batman and prevented it. At some point you need to rely on someone to watch your back, and that's where the tournament organizers could be doing a better job.

Honestly just having cameras at events and announcing them would probably do the most good. There's just no reason that this isn't happening already, and no one tell me cost is a reason, security cameras cost as little as $50 and are portable enough to bring to different venues. You could even find one on ebay for less. Half of the fucking parking lots in any city have them. One thing WotC could also do is take pictures of people's faces to go into their DCI database to match with the security cameras, as this technology is now also dirt cheap.

Beatusnox

03-08-2012, 02:16 AM

A way to prevent theft, on the player side is to not bring backpacks into events, I know its not ideal, but while you are playing, keep the bag in your Car/Hotel Room. When you are available to trade, trade; and when you are there to play, play.

I really like the idea of Tagged and weighed bags, A way to answer the Bulk question is to simply have a receipt of the "bulk Transaction". Just have the Vendor you buy or sell from write a receipt of the weight change. Its not ideal, but only require it for transactions of say 15-20 cards or more.

Its not ideal but it could be reliably worked I believe. Is there a legal minded person on the source here that could draft a proposal of some kind to submit to the DCI? If we are going to discuss this, it would make sense to actually try to have something come from it other than bickering and name calling.

xfxf

03-08-2012, 05:16 AM

I’m glad to see some positive responses for my bag-tagging idea. I know it’s far from ideal but I wanted to throw it out there to cast a Brainstorm :D. When designing security controls, a good approach is to throw an idea out against the threat and let others find holes in your idea. Then you modify your idea, they find holes…Until it becomes bullet proof but infeasible. Then you start backing down to an acceptable risk level with an acceptable cost.

I don’t think anybody is blaming TOs or holding them responsible in some way but just expecting more. In small tournaments, gaming stores or such, you can’t realistically expect the store owner support you in terms of security. But for big organizations TOs are playing with bigger money so they have the luxury to implement these “premium features” to make it a premium event.

If I were organizing one of those I would try to distinguish myself from the rest by promoting just this. “In addition to the artists, side events etc. we will also have security staff in the venue and cameras to help you enjoy your game in confidence” Having just the cameras and unfriendly bulky security people around would be enough to reduce the number of people trying to pull tricks just by itself. Making people say “wow, this time they’re keeping it really tight. Nice.” can be more lucrative in the long run than not having the controls in place and making a few bucks more now.

Scordata

03-08-2012, 07:55 PM

Since it turns out that community pressure is actually worth something in mtg, here's an idea:

Let's start a wall of shame. If you've got proof that a certain someone stole your stuff, be VERY vocal about it. List the time, place, event, and potential suspects. With enough of these stories going around, certain stores and events will be known as "dangerous to play in," because cards are getting stolen with higher frequencies. I know that in my play group, certain individuals are pegged as thieves. We don't associate with them, and since store owners are hurt if these scumbags keep playing at their events - we get them banned from locations.

Social pressure does a lot more than diatribes. Be the change you want to see.

PS - if you play magic in the greater NYC area, msg me for a list of scumbags. I'd be happy to pull a Drew Levin here and exposes those childish asshats for the filth that they are.

Hopo

03-09-2012, 04:54 AM

As someone who is licensed to carry concealed and owns a Glock 17...

I wouldn't feel comfortable at all attending in events where random people with random states of mind are carrying guns. Or even knives. People tend to go apeshit and start spraying in schools and hospitals. I dont' see why a magic tournament venue would be different.

jandax

03-09-2012, 05:44 AM

Not that the game is in the media's eye, but can you imagine the headlines for the Magic: the Gathering Grand Prix Shooting of 20XX? Everyone who knew nothing of the game would see it how ever newspapers painted it, and WotC would likely take a hit in business. Any PR is good PR, but a bad rep is hard to shake.

Malchar

03-09-2012, 08:10 AM

By volume, most legacy staples are worth more than $20 bills. People should realize this and treat them as such. We're closing in on the threshold where it's more efficient for bank robbers to target a legacy tournament instead of a bank. I mean, there's zero security, and the goods are worth more than their weight in cash.

Damoxx

03-09-2012, 08:29 AM

I wouldn't feel comfortable at all attending in events where random people with random states of mind are carrying guns. Or even knives. People tend to go apeshit and start spraying in schools and hospitals. I dont' see why a magic tournament venue would be different.

I completely disagree. I would feel completely safe with any number of responsible, law-abiding, permit-carrying gun owners at any venue that I go to.

@Solaran_X- Thank you and I support your choice.

xfxf

03-09-2012, 09:40 AM

Damoxx

03-09-2012, 10:04 AM

Uhm no, sorry. I did mandatory military service and I don't want people carrying guns in the civil life in my social chambers. Especially where I'm going to play a game such as Magic. I'd rather worry about thieves than people with guns and their egos.

There are so many responsible gun owners that carry and you wouldn't know they are carrying until they pull their firearm to protect themselves and possibly you.

There is a saying that I like to use, it goes "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." Just a thought.

Sorry for the derail.

DownSyndromeKarl

03-09-2012, 10:13 AM

There are so many responsible gun owners that carry and you wouldn't know they are carrying until they pull their firearm to protect themselves and possibly you.

There is a saying that I like to use, it goes "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." Just a thought.

Sorry for the derail.

Yeah, but someone who boasts online about carrying a glock to dissuade would-be thieves is not what I would consider responsible.

hyperchord24

03-09-2012, 10:16 AM

What's to stop the gn being stolen and the place shot up? Yeah, corner case, but no guns, I live. If there's guns, there's a chance I could die. And oh, by the way, these people being encouraged to bring guns, what if they do? And what if they don't get training? What if a theif tries to steal his bag? What if he shoots and kills the theif, oh and accidently shoots some innocent bystander?

This isn't the point. The whole point of the thread is what TO's or WotC should do if they feel people aren't attending tournaments solely based on not feeling safe. Not about how to protect yourself or whether or not the person who leaves his/her stuff unattended deserves to get robbed.

xfxf

03-09-2012, 10:17 AM

Still no. Without further derail I support the "no carrying" policy in big events and I also agree with the idea that TOs can take more responsibility to create an atmoshpere of trust even though they are not obliged to.

Having stated those I'm taking my leave from this thread because it's taking strange turns away from gaming and community issues.

jamesh

03-09-2012, 11:41 AM

Considering I have been warned by moderators on this forum for criticizing someone's cards for being un-pimp, I'm pretty surprised that this thread (and the crazy statements re: guns) gets to run utterly unmoderated.

TheSource - WTF!?

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-09-2012, 12:08 PM

What the fuck do guns solve?

The problem isn't generally that thieves are caught mid-steal and get away because there was no John Wayne wannabe there to unnecessarily escalate things. It's that there's no reasonable security at tournaments and people get their shit stolen when they blink or turn their back for a second.

As for the cases like in Baltimore, where people are assaulted when alone, a gun probably isn't going to help you. Either you're ambushed and don't have time to use a gun in any sort of safe and controlled manner, or you walk around paranoid and ready to fire.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/family-of-trayvon-martin-_n_1332756.html

Magic players are already worried about thieves; we don't also need to worry about paranoid idiots with deadly weapons.

And even if Mr. Rambo over there WAS there when my cards were stolen, guess what? I wouldn't want him to kill the thief. It's not fucking worth it.

Crazy motherfuckers.

nedleeds

03-09-2012, 12:17 PM

Wizards and TOs just clearly lack the will to prevent theft comparable to their desire to prevent cheating;

You are one ignorant stubborn bitter dude. Let me make it really really clear

- Cheating at a WotC owned and run game = WotC business
- Stealing shit = Police business

How can you make a statement like the above? You are comparing actual crime with brainstorming for 4. Just colossal ignorance of the law.

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-09-2012, 01:12 PM

You are one ignorant stubborn bitter dude. Let me make it really really clear

- Cheating at a WotC owned and run game = WotC business
- Stealing shit = Police business

How can you make a statement like the above? You are comparing actual crime with brainstorming for 4. Just colossal ignorance of the law.

That's why there's no such thing as private security that tens of thousands of businesses all over the country certainly don't spend their money on for the good of their clientele.

That would just be ignorant.

jrw1985

03-09-2012, 01:23 PM

To get this thread back on track:
Security is too expensive. Magic is a low rent game. This isn't the WSOP with $20,000,000 on the line hosted in a Vegas Casino. This is a $5K in a Civic Center.

nedleeds

03-09-2012, 01:25 PM

That's why there's no such thing as private security that tens of thousands of businesses all over the country certainly don't spend their money on for the good of their clientele.

That would just be ignorant.

What 'clientele' are you talking about? Have you been to a SCG? It's $25 a head and then there's twice as many people who didn't pay a dime who are just wandering around the ball room trading (and apparently stealing shit).

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-09-2012, 01:38 PM

What 'clientele' are you talking about? Have you been to a SCG? It's $25 a head and then there's twice as many people who didn't pay a dime who are just wandering around the ball room trading (and apparently stealing shit).

Ding ding ding! We have an accidental winner folks.

The clientele in this case would be the people paying money. That's generally what that means. So how hard would it be for SCG to set up sign-in outside the doors and only let people in if they've registered at the tournament?

sdematt

03-09-2012, 01:39 PM

I think they need to actually have security at the entrances, plain and simple. Even if it's just people with walkie-talkies to shut the doors in case of an incident, or someone to hold someone who's running away after grabbing a bag, that's better than nothing. You're not going to catch sly thieves who steal one deck box then walk out of the convention hall. But, at least it'll make the thieves think twice.

-Matt

coraz86

03-09-2012, 01:48 PM

To get this thread back on track:
Security is too expensive. Magic is a low rent game. This isn't the WSOP with $20,000,000 on the line hosted in a Vegas Casino. This is a $5K in a Civic Center.

I'm not sure if it's state law or federal, but around here it's felony grand theft if your take exceeds $500. I've heard of people getting five years in jail for stealing things like televisions. Spatula and IBA are not talking about the supermarket attitude of weighing the costs of security and prosecution against the value of, say, two loaves of Wonderbread. Almost every deck I've registered in a Legacy tournament (shit, half the ones I've ever run at FNM) was worth more than my first car--and that's just in monetary terms.

To contribute to the discussion IBA originally incited; it actually helped a lot imho at Grand Prix-Colombus 2010 when the vendors were up on this wide balcony ringing the playing area. You stayed downstairs to play in events, but it was more convenient for everyone if trading and shopping and such took place upstairs.

When we run Erie Days of Gaming every year, we have the vendors in a room adjacent to the play space for this very reason; it has the practical application of people not clogging the play area with the foot traffic and inattention of nerds goggling at sweet stuff, but it also prevents the confusion and other crowd-related mess that makes theft simple to perform and hard to correct.

I really liked the way GP-Colombus had the vendors on the balcony; within an easy line of sight, but cordoned off by height and a retaining wall. Has anyone seen a different/better method?

TsumiBand

03-09-2012, 02:24 PM

Whether it's to our benefit or deficit I have no idea, but in Lincoln Nebraska pretty much all of our social venues - from hobby stores to restaurants to banks - are required by law to explicitly state whether or not you can carry. So telling everyone to start bringing weapons to tourneys is pretty useless in my area, since just about every family oriented business has a "Check Your Iron" message posted near the main entrance.

Blaming the victim is only warranted in situations of excessive stupidity; people with no compunction about stealing are going to steal, and it will not matter what level of precaution you take. The responsibility of the outcome of such a person's decisions should be entirely on that individual; consider the corollary, do we pat people on the back and give them gold stars for being honest folk when someone DOES leave their Magic cards sitting out and they don't disappear? This isn't physics, action and reaction are not necessarily equal and opposite in a social venue. Insinuation and inference are not necessarily related. At the risk of derailing, the girl in the short skirt isn't "asking for it" - neither is the person who turns his back on his cards for a second. It might be the wrong play, but it's not illegal. Stealing is illegal.

It would be extremely nice if tournament organizers would do a little extra to make personal accountability easier.

Gui

03-09-2012, 02:39 PM

Well, it's somewhat hard to be done in the sense there usually are a lot of trades going on, but there could be a checklist for bigger materials (like boxes and cases and backpacks) upon entrance and leaving the tourney rooms, and you'd just need 1 person to check if it's all right. Dunno if it's a practical idea, tho...

honestabe

03-09-2012, 04:14 PM

Aggro_zombies

03-09-2012, 04:21 PM

Don't want your backpack stolen? Don't bring it.

You take the risk that you could lose your property anywhere you go. Thinking that the TO is responsible is childish. If a TO wants to step up security, that's great, but I think it's a bit whiney to call the current level unacceptable.
I agree. Security is entirely a personal matter. If someone gets their shit stolen, they are entirely at fault and therefore deserved it.

While we're on the subject, I think we should get rid of the police. Clearly, all we need to maintain law and order is sufficiently robust self-defense.

JBlaze

03-09-2012, 04:31 PM

People who think that anybody who carries a gun in a violent maniac deserve to be shot.

I'm joking obviously but some of the anti gun propaganda is just sad. Are guns the best answer? absolutely not. Security guards and cameras would be a much better solution. Are Wizards or any other T.O's gonna ante up and do something? Sure does not seem like it. I realize that the gun thing is over the top to some extent. I was just trying to convey the point that I am fed up my friends being targets and even more fed up with people who could do something about it being unwilling to because it might cut into their profit margin.

We as magic players have to face the fact that criminals are viewing our community as easy marks. We are wandering around convention halls in unfamiliar city's lugging around backpacks stuffed with thousands of dollars worth of hard to track merchandise playing a game that requires total focus and there is no security what so ever. If the punk ass who try's to jack someone's cards gets pistol whipped and has his shoes taken maybe the next guy will think a little harder

If I feel the need to carry around three decks that are worth a thousand dollars each plus a couple thousand in trade stuff in order to enjoy myself at a Grand Prix I am going to do it thieves be dammed, and if I feel the need to carry a weapon to protect my person and property well I am going to do that to. I am a trained and responsible gun owner and it is my right to do so.

Hoojo

03-09-2012, 05:06 PM

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-09-2012, 10:31 PM

There isn't a way to prevent theft. Even if they had police officers onsite, cameras, and safe areas, there will still be theft. Then the victims will cry out that Tournament Organizers and Wizards need to do more, and the cycle never ends. Adding these measures may reduce the number of thieves of opportunity (not premeditated), but there are groups of people who look for these events simply to capitalize and plan these heists. It will not stop these types of thieves.

Yes, we live in a civilization where we help each other and all that, but it is not perfect, and no amount of security will stop a dedicated thief. The reason it is acceptable is because there would be no tournaments otherwise.

That's the laziest argument possible.

See a_z's post. We'll never stop every murder. Fuck it, let's get rid of the police.

We're not talking about stopping all theft; we're talking about reasonable and zero-to-low-cost measures that TOs could easily take to help prevent theft. Every prevented theft has a REAL benefactor. That's somebody who's collection they spent money and time amassing isn't suddenly gone, who stays in the game and helps keep it alive and robust.

This is in everyone's interest and doesn't really have to cost anyone anything.

Trying to argue against it is childish, selfish, egotistical and absurd. The victim-blaming mentality is never correct. It's the tool of the weak-willed and the privileged.

I agree. Security is entirely a personal matter. If someone gets their shit stolen, they are entirely at fault and therefore deserved it.

While we're on the subject, I think we should get rid of the police. Clearly, all we need to maintain law and order is sufficiently robust self-defense.

/win thread

Hoojo

03-09-2012, 10:45 PM

That's the laziest argument possible.

See a_z's post. We'll never stop every murder. Fuck it, let's get rid of the police.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try. I'm just saying it'll never go away. Some personal responsibility has to be taken (like teaching your kids not to thieves.) Please don't misrepresent what I said.

n00bas4urus_r3x

03-10-2012, 09:36 AM

What we really need: pitfall trap

To build on the bag tag idea, when you entered the event, if you had a bag, you would get a matching wrist band for yourself and one for your bag (talking water/amusement park wrist bands). ID numbers printed on the bands would match, linking your bag. TO's could even switch band colors a few times during registration, making it very easy to identify a thief if a person has a different color band on his wrist than his bag. You'd have to have a check point when you left the event to display your matching bands. I think there would have to be some protocol in place if a person lost a band on either their bag or wrist, something like a security question to identify you as the owner and not someone who stole a bag and cut the band off.

TO's could remind everyone to watch there stuff every round. Not that big of a deal, just take a little preventative action and keep it in the front of people's minds.

nedleeds

03-10-2012, 01:33 PM

Ding ding ding! We have an accidental winner folks.

The clientele in this case would be the people paying money. That's generally what that means. So how hard would it be for SCG to set up sign-in outside the doors and only let people in if they've registered at the tournament?

This seems fine ..... except star city has a huge dealer table that they want people to have to parade past ... and sell all that stolen shit to ... now you are asking them to create a play only area which requires ID. Or they simply ban all non competitors from the facility ... that seems bad for a vendor driven game. Most thefts are happening in between rounds and while trading. So you move the trading to the hallways, outside the 'jurisdiction' of the organizer. Then your stuff gets jacked, who do you have to menstrate all over then? The building owner? Jesus? Richard Garfield?

coraz86

03-10-2012, 03:46 PM

This seems fine ..... except star city has a huge dealer table that they want people to have to parade past ... and sell all that stolen shit to ... now you are asking them to create a play only area which requires ID. Or they simply ban all non competitors from the facility ... that seems bad for a vendor driven game. Most thefts are happening in between rounds and while trading. So you move the trading to the hallways, outside the 'jurisdiction' of the organizer. Then your stuff gets jacked, who do you have to menstrate all over then? The building owner? Jesus? Richard Garfield?

Gen Con and Origins, to name two popular conventions, require paid entry to get into the play areas. No badge, no entry. Not difficult.

Some conventions keep the vendor tables by the registration desk, so a) you don't have to pay to enter the con in order to shop and b) every single person who enters the venue has access to the dealers. Everybody wins that way.

Although all of the serious suggestions are meaningless if none of the TOs are reading this thread. It's going to take someone giving it the ol' college try and figuring out something that works. I do know a local store that lost a ton of business when there was a theft outbreak, but here's hoping it doesn't get to the point of both people getting their stuff stolen and the TO losing business to get motion on this, because that sucks for everybody.

SpikeyMikey

03-12-2012, 05:22 AM

I'm not sure if it's state law or federal, but around here it's felony grand theft if your take exceeds $500. I've heard of people getting five years in jail for stealing things like televisions.

Same thing in Wisconsin. $500 or more is a felony. I'd have to imagine it's pretty much the same everywhere.

By volume, most legacy staples are worth more than $20 bills. People should realize this and treat them as such. We're closing in on the threshold where it's more efficient for bank robbers to target a legacy tournament instead of a bank. I mean, there's zero security, and the goods are worth more than their weight in cash.

I was talking about this to my old roommate on the drive back from Indy. It's not that we're closing in on the threshold. Most bank robbers leave with one or two thousand dollars. At a GP, I'd bet you could take at least $100,000 in cash off the vendors in 5 minutes or less. You could probably get another $75k in cards in the same time frame. Maybe if that happens, then TO's will get serious about security.

bruizar

03-12-2012, 05:32 AM

It would be ironic if, say, $75k worth of cards would be stolen from one of the mayor card vendors, because they are the ones that drove the prices up in the first place :-).

lordofthepit

03-12-2012, 05:37 AM

It would be ironic if, say, $75k worth of cards would be stolen from one of the mayor card vendors, because they are the ones that drove the prices up in the first place :-).

Please explain how the major card vendors caused the prices to go up. Include data about the extent of their influence on the secondary market if possible.

dontbiteitholmes

03-12-2012, 06:18 AM

The best solution to prevent theft IMO is to be proactive.

Police set up bait and trap criminals all the time. We've all heard of the bait car, where the police go to a high crime area of town and leave a car in a vulnerable position, then when someone steals it they jump out and arrest them. We've all seen shows with undercover cops as prostitutes busting johns. Cops have been known to even leave expensive bikes out in high theft areas to catch bike thieves. Police pose as dealers and bust people buying drugs in the bad part of town. All of these measures reduce crime. There's a reason johns are known to ask prostitutes if they are cops, and I've seen on the bait car shows where sometimes a criminal will obviously case the car and then say "nah man, this looks like a trap" loud enough for the cameras to hear it before he walks away.

Imagine if you will a group of thieves goes to GP whatever planning to work over the crowd and steal some bags. On the first day of the GP a kid steals a bag and three cops jump out and arrest him immediately and cuff him in the middle of the auditorium. Surprise, baited! Everyone now knows the cops are baiting thieves, do you think these young criminals are as likely to steal bags the rest of the weekend knowing every bag or deck box is potentially a trap or that an undercover cop may be nearby waiting to pounce? Probably not. I still think 50-75% of thefts are just kids who see something valuable unattended and take it because it's easy. Most of these thieves don't go to events planning to steal, they just see something they want out in the open and can't help themselves. When is the last time you think these kids walked down the street and saw a sawzall in an open garage and ran up and grabbed it? Probably not ever. Most people probably don't stop to think they may be caught and think something like a binder or a backpack in a room full of backpacks will be easy to steal and there will be zero consequences. Right now they are mostly right. For every bag or box that is stolen probably 95+% get away with it.

Obviously it might be hard to get the local cops on board for something like a sting on what they probably consider a kid's game. At the same time though a big event like a GP is probably the highest theft area in the city while it is going on dollar wise so it probably makes sense to run bait trap in such an event.

In the end it's likely a mix of community and TO that is needed to bring down the level of theft. The people most in a position to stop theft are law enforcement and it's likely they are oblivious to what is happening in their own cities. Cities like New Orleans and New York have special units they send out during big events to catch pickpockets and the average take for a pickpocket is likely 10x less than the average take from an MTG thief who rarely seem to walk away with under $100-$200 worth of product. I'm guessing if you could convince some city's PD that there is a good chance there will be at least one felony theft an hour in the local convention center as well as roving bands of thieves who may easily take $10,000-$50,000 or more if not caught you would get at least one locale that would spring into action. If you could have some successful arrests in one city it would be much easier to get more local PD's to step up their game. Example, if there was a GP in Detroit and the PD set up and caught 7 thieves trying to steal from tourists at their convention center and returned $3000 worth of product (and no city wants theft at their convention center, speaking of bad for business) it would be much easier for say GP Atlanta police to hear about that and set up a similar operation to keep crime out of their convention center.

Hopo

03-12-2012, 08:59 AM

I completely disagree. I would feel completely safe with any number of responsible, law-abiding, permit-carrying gun owners at any venue that I go to.

That works for you, since you have the supernatural power of telling the responsibe, law-abiding people from the homicidal crackpots or just, you know, regular human beings who have moodswings and get pissed off of different things and situations.

The rest of us don't have that luxury and I'd rather not get guns involved in this game, as I value my life quite a bit. The American pro-gun attitudes seem absolutely ridiculous, but that's another story.

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-12-2012, 09:49 AM

I've sent emails to WotC and SCG expressing my concern and linking this thread. I suggest others who are concerned take the time to do the same.

http://www.wizards.com/Company/Contact.aspx

https://sales.starcitygames.com//contactus/contactform.php?emailid=5

dontbiteitholmes

03-12-2012, 09:51 AM

Why the hell would having a gun change anything? Are you going to shoot someone if they take your cards because I'm like 100% sure that is not a good reason to shoot someone. In the like 5 strong arm robberies I've heard of ever in 15 years a can of pepper spray probably would have been just as effective in stopping it.

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-12-2012, 10:07 AM

But pepper spray doesn't compensate for a small penis and an inability to prioritize human life.

Tao

03-12-2012, 10:30 AM

Whenever I go to Constructed tournaments I am super paranoid about thieves. I don't bring my collection anymore and I don't leave the deck box alone for even one second. At least I try but like IBA said people are not perfect and I can recalll a number of occurances in the last year in which I could have become a victim and that despite the fact that I only play once every three months now. So yeah the thread is very legit and reading the first pages gave me a real headache.

UnderwaterGuy

03-12-2012, 11:29 AM

there's no use blaming someone else like the tournament organizers for you being robbed. it sucks but each person has to try and be responsible for their property.

this isn't a to's fault.

hyperchord24

03-12-2012, 01:11 PM

No one is blaming anyone. People don't feel safe anymore. It is causing people to stop participating in tournaments. That means less money for TO's and WotC. Those guys having their car broken into? How can you safeguard against that? You can't.

UnderwaterGuy

03-12-2012, 02:08 PM

People don't feel safe anymore.

They shouldn't have felt safe in the first place. Crowded places aren't safe.

Having your car broken into has nothing to do with magic, wotc, or tournament organizers. Cars can be broken into or stolen and you shouldn't leave valuables in them. It's a risk anyone takes whenever they leave their vehicles unattended and I feel for the kids who were robbed, it would be terrible, but that's life and you need to be careful. No security can always protect people from crime.

Tao

03-12-2012, 02:21 PM

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-12-2012, 02:25 PM

They shouldn't have felt safe in the first place. Crowded places aren't safe.

Having your car broken into has nothing to do with magic, wotc, or tournament organizers. Cars can be broken into or stolen and you shouldn't leave valuables in them. It's a risk anyone takes whenever they leave their vehicles unattended and I feel for the kids who were robbed, it would be terrible, but that's life and you need to be careful. No security can always protect people from crime.

People are on the road, they can't carry their stuff with them all the time. Stuff will be left in a room, or in a car, and determined thieves can get in.

No one is blaming the TO for the car break-in. You're creating a strawman to prop up your absurd, victim-blaming wannabe tough-guy argument. It's not irresponsible to assume that people won't break into your car in broad daylight.

Stop trolling to try to prove what a rugged loner with a mysterious past you are.

UnderwaterGuy

03-12-2012, 03:23 PM

People are on the road, they can't carry their stuff with them all the time. Stuff will be left in a room, or in a car, and determined thieves can get in.

No one is blaming the TO for the car break-in. You're creating a strawman to prop up your absurd, victim-blaming wannabe tough-guy argument. It's not irresponsible to assume that people won't break into your car in broad daylight.

Stop trolling to try to prove what a rugged loner with a mysterious past you are.

Not sure where you're getting that from.

Like I said, I feel for the victims. It's really unfortunate but the only thing that can be done about it is to defend yourself. I'm not putting on a tough guy act or straw manning. I responded directly to someone who said "people don't feel safe anymore" and said they never should have in the first place.

Do you think this thread is just supposed to be a place for crying about how sad and mean the world is because crime exists? There's no trolling it's just common sense.

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-12-2012, 03:45 PM

This thread is a place for discussing cost-effective steps that TOs can take to reduce the rate of theft.

It is not the place to prove how tough and "street smart" you think you are by saying shit everyone already knows.

UnderwaterGuy

03-12-2012, 03:50 PM

you're fucking aggressive aren't you spatulaoftheages...

Koby

03-12-2012, 03:52 PM

Please stay on topic; you're perfectly welcome to start a new thread discussing good tips on not losing your stuff.

Picc

03-12-2012, 04:02 PM

Not sure where you're getting that from.

Like I said, I feel for the victims. It's really unfortunate but the only thing that can be done about it is to defend yourself. I'm not putting on a tough guy act or straw manning. I responded directly to someone who said "people don't feel safe anymore" and said they never should have in the first place.

Do you think this thread is just supposed to be a place for crying about how sad and mean the world is because crime exists? There's no trolling it's just common sense.

It must be a sad scarey world you live in where you cant even feel safe at a gaming event. I'm as paranoid as the next guy and I do everything I can to protect my stuff when I'm on the road. Knock on wood I've never been robbed but I don't think its unreasonable to expect TOs, venue providers, and to a lesser extent even Wotc to provide a safe environment in which to play.

Sure its the everyone responsibility to do what they can to keep their stuff (and themselves) safe. If you left your stuff unatended in a crowded place and it was gone when you got back you have no one to blame but yourself but if you were there trading and someone just grabbed your binder and ran for the door. If you were in the rest room and someone winged your head off the procelin to steal your bag. Or stold your deck off the table while you were playing it then I think thats the responsability of the TO/venu to provide security.

There have been some reasonable suggestions and some unreasonable ones made on this thread and I don't think for a second that things should be 100% on the venu but lets face facts. Large scale events are known as havens for thieves and its just as irresponsible for organizers to not take simple steps like keeping the play area clear of non players during rounds, or having a security gaurd or two walking the floor as it is for players to leave their bags with total strangers between rounds.

Whichever side of the issue your on I think we can all agree theres a growing stigma of theft at large magic events that isnt good for any of us and we should all do what we can to fight it. The only way were going to solve this is as a community.

For players that means being vigilant not just for your stuff but for others. Only bring what you need, keep your cards on you at all times, loop your back pack in your chair or keep it in your lap, and if you see someone acting suspiciously report it to security or a TO.

For event organizers I truly think there needs to be a renewed focus on the security of your players as a lot of them don't feel safe anymore. Were not asking you to go into the red on private security and I don't think were at the point where we need wotc oversight but a few simple deterrents can go a long way to reducing crimes of opportunity. Rope off play area, limit back packs and trading on the event floor and considers venues with separate dealer rooms. Matching back pack, wrist tags is a great idea, as are photo id being checked/recorded along with DCI cards before eatery to the hall is granted but really its up to you and almost anything would be better then image of easy pic-kins our current tournament culture presents.

To everyone who's been robbed like this, weather you deserved it or not I'm really sorry. I hope it doesn't drive you away from the game.

To those doing the robbing just remember you cant beat the odds forever and I for one am looking forward to the day you slip up and get caught.

hyperchord24

03-12-2012, 04:04 PM

There must be other small collectible conventions around the US, right? Sure there are car shows, and I'm sure there are car thefts, but they are cars. Big. People who collect something like coins or stamps or trains that are small must go through the same issues we do as a community. I wonder what they do? How do they manage theft at major events? And they are coins, not magical pieces of card board. A potential theif hears about a magic card tournament and isn't in the know isn't going to be as turned on as when he/she hears about a coin convention.

EDIT: I don't know what it is about magic cards that make people theives. Back in the day when Vesuvan Doppleganger was a big time rare, I had two of them stolen from me by a good friend. They went missing one day and the next my friend had two to trade to me and he said he got them from a kid he hangs out wth at camp. Sure. Another friend of mine stole a summer's worth of babysitting money from his neighbor to buy a Mox Pearl, Forcefield and an Illusionary Mask. Some friends I had. When I was in high school they baned playing the game because people would steel shit all the time. I was playing a Savannah when a kid picked up and said something like "it's mine now," and me, having no balls, said nothing. The group I was with convinced him to give it back to me. I have all kinds of stories if I think back long enough.

Picc

03-12-2012, 04:11 PM

There must be other small collectible conventions around the US, right? Sure there are car shows, and I'm sure there are car thefts, but they are cars. Big. People who collect something like coins or stamps or trains that are small must go through the same issues we do as a community. I wonder what they do? How do they manage theft at major events? And they are coins, not magical pieces of card board. A potential theif hears about a magic card tournament and isn't in the know isn't going to be as turned on as when he/she hears about a coin convention.

The problem with comparing us to another type of collectable convention is that with stamps or coins most of the merchandiser is in dealer cases until you buy it and take it home. You don't hear about nearly as many thefts from dealer cases as you do from players and you don't bring your entire stamp collection with you when your out to buy a bluenose.

A more apt analogy would be to compare us to the security used at a mid level poker tournament (and I suspect you will find us sadly lacking)

Rancorous Fool

03-12-2012, 04:58 PM

First, I was the victim of a theft on the premises of a local store some two years ago. I was pretty pissed and happened to have some friends who knew a bit about the law and were happy to help. I am not a lawyer, this is part story time and part amateur research. That local store had been the ground of several thefts reported to the police. Because the store itself did not take reasonable precautions to protect its clientele, they were liable for my loss.

Let me repeat that. The store was liable for the loss of my cards because:

1. They knew about the common theft problem in the store
2. They did not do anything to attempt to prevent it

These same liabilities also pass on to event coordinators hosting at event sites. Such as the TOs at a Grand Prix. Its depends some on which state you are in and is often covered under crime liability for acts of third parties. Any professional organizer has purchased special event insurance and your loss should be claimed against their insurance policy.

For Store owners, etc: If you know about a problem of a crime taking place, you need to attempt to prevent it. This can range from installing cameras, installing fences, or hiring private security. For magic cards, cameras are probably best.

My local store has changed management, has cameras now, little to no theft, and does a very good job of protecting its customers. I would recommend it as a safe place to play.

hyperchord24

03-12-2012, 05:03 PM

Wow, if WotC are liable this could turn into a PR nightmare.

dontbiteitholmes

03-12-2012, 05:07 PM

Wow, if WotC are liable this could turn into a PR nightmare.

Well they obviously aren't liable for the hotel parking lot...
GP's should have security cameras though seriously. A descent setup of like 10 cameras and a computer to accept the feed could easily be had under $1000 and would be able to service every single GP with a 60 min setup.

nedleeds

03-12-2012, 05:08 PM

Wow, if WotC are liable this could turn into a PR nightmare.

Not a chance. 1/2 the reports are from people getting stuff jacked from their cars. Sometimes in bathrooms in common space of whatever rented facility they are in. Matter of fact, the measures some people in here suggest just create an illusion of responsibility for which no tournament organizer wants to be responsible.

kombatkiwi

03-12-2012, 05:55 PM

I had my binder stolen or I lost it or whatever and I simply switched my whole attitude up.
Now even when I'm just walking down the street I keep my hands in my pockets and try not to bump into people for fear of losing my wallet etc.

I get that the thread is not about blame but most of these suggestions are either too expensive or ineffective. The most economic way to prevent theft is simply to excersise extreme caution at all times.

One possible solution is to have judges assigned to security detail: its cheaper than hiring actual security and may be a decent deterrent but I dunno how you guys would feel about having security staff without any sort of proper training.

Aggro_zombies

03-12-2012, 06:52 PM

One possible solution is to have judges assigned to security detail: its cheaper than hiring actual security and may be a decent deterrent but I dunno how you guys would feel about having security staff without any sort of proper training.
There's a theory in policing called the Broken Windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory) theory, which deals with people's perceptions of crime; namely, that if an area looks run-down and prone to crime, people are more likely to engage in criminal behavior, whereas if an area looks neat and well-maintained, they are less likely to do so even if the number of opportunities to commit crime are relatively even between the two areas. The idea is that, essentially, disorder breeds more disorder because people expect a disordered area to have high crime, and therefore feel more free to commit crimes themselves.

The practical upshot of all of this is that, if you focus law enforcement on minor things like petty vandalism, you will also reduce the rates of major crimes like burglary or arson. This has been backed up empirically over the last few decades.

Applied to tournament venues, having circulating judges on security detail could help reduce theft rates by creating an atmosphere of safety; people would be less likely to casually steal if they felt such behavior was being explicitly frowned upon. Of course, cleaning up the community would have the same effect: if you have a bunch of poorly socialized nerds hanging out together, the ethically flexible ones can feed off of the apparent atmosphere of tolerance for socially unacceptable behaviors (like, say, the woman-bashing that took place at the recent GP I-Don't-Remember, or rampant cheating and rule-bending) and rationalize stealing to themselves.

In short, appearances go a long way. Yes, places like this will still be targets for professional thieves who know what Magic cards are worth, but cutting down on casual theft - say, people swiping decks off of tables when no one's looking - can do a lot.

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-12-2012, 07:38 PM

Exactly. As long as people treat this as "someone else's problem" or victimblame, Magic tournaments will look like what they are; an opportunity for thieves with a high payoff, no real risk, and a fair certainty of making a profit.

This all stems from the apathy of the TOs and of players like the ones we see polluting this thread with their unnecessary muscle flexing.

The community has to care enough about this issue to take basic steps in order for it to change.

This is the response I got from SCG:

Thank you for bringing this thread to my attention. Theft at events is certainly a major issue and some recent incidents have brought it to the forefront of many player's minds. We do our best to take all reasonable steps that we can to prevent theft at our events and I am certainly open to further steps that we can take to help ensure positive experiences for our attendees and players.

Seems non-committal at best. Hopefully if enough people directly contact them about this issue they'll get more serious about it.

kombatkiwi

03-12-2012, 08:02 PM

baghdadbob

03-12-2012, 09:38 PM

In this thread. People unknowingly supporting the ideologies of rape victim blamers, and corporal punishment. In all seriousness though I think we have to attest a lot of this stealing to the type of person who plays magic. I mean some of these kids have never seen a vagina i.r.l. and think that they are level 20 over 900000000 masters of the thieves guild. I know one personally. These kids are really fucked up and voyeuristic, possibly sociopaths etc. I think we can do one of three things. 1) Blame 5000 years of human inbreeding on every little thing that is shit that happens to us. 2) Send WOTC and SCG emails which they will probably ignore/laugh about asking them to install some sort of security systems to watch over the games. 3) Listen to Vacrix who said something along the lines of having rigged Dog The Bounty Hunter esq. crackdowns on thieves using card boxes being watched over by secret service men. I support option three that shit worked in the middle east it could work at your local ptq. :eek:

Tha Gunslinga

03-12-2012, 10:21 PM

There have been huge thefts of coins at conventions and such. People have been followed and had their cars broken in to. If you google it you'll find plenty of stories. This isn't something that just happens to Magic players.

hyperchord24

03-12-2012, 10:31 PM

Oh okay. I was looking for something that. It really does sound like there's nothing we can do unless you can find a way to find the TOs liable for the loss with that whole third party thing.

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-13-2012, 11:20 AM

I think that all the people claiming that TOs arent doing enough need to provide more concrete ideas for what they can be doing.
-Guards: Expensive. If they miss a more subtle snatch then they havent even done anything to help the situation aside from functioning as a deterrent. If they do see something they can act on it which is really the only plus.
-Cameras: Probably cheaper than guards but may not be able to help until it's too late. For maximum value you have to have somebody monitoring them the entire time which again is expensive. It should provide an effective deterrent coupled with some sort of no-hoods policy or something.

I think for large events of GP and some scg open scale they really do have to think about installing cameras. Guards will not be effective at preventing the 'table snatch' theft which seems the most common.

Stuff like the car theft thing, while extremely unfortunate, is really nothing to do with the TO. If you want to stop car thefts at the venue then it requires more guards and cameras.

Stuff like the compulsory bag tag is really not viable for reasons that should be obvious.

Cameras would be valuable even if they weren't being constantly monitored; people could show them to police, and we'd know what the thief looks like.

Also, my suggestion of having sign-up outside the tournament area is easy, free, and common sense. It eliminates theft in that area from outside the community, allowing people to apply pressure within the community to catch any thief that steals someone's bag while they're playing.

As for car theft or bathroom muggings, the TO themselves can really only warn people. They should remind people, especially newer players or people who may not have heard about these incidents, to be on their guard, not go to the bathroom alone, and not leave their collections unattended, even in a car.

It's the silence on the issue that speaks to a failure of leadership.

Kuma

03-13-2012, 01:50 PM

Hoojo

03-13-2012, 02:22 PM

My reply from Star City Games. I think if enough people will write civil letters, I think there will be some changes ahead in the SCG field.

Thank you for your concern and for e-mailing me about this issue. We are definitely aware of the recent issues with theft at events and we have been brainstorming ways that we can address the issue. The thread that you mention had already come to my attention and I have been following it for ideas to bring into the discussion.

Jeff

03-13-2012, 04:38 PM

My response to all the people saying "It's your own fault for having such valuable stuff with you, don't bring it to the event"

I went to GP Indy this weekend with a group of 11 people. Several people in that group had their own huge legacy collections, and others had smaller collections and borrow from the people with larger ones when they don't have all the pieces. I'm fortunate to have a pretty good collection, and I'm always happy to loan pieces to my friends.

As a result, I took my binder of legacy staples and box of other random legacy cards with me, just in case anyone randomly needed something. This means I now have with me a binder and box containing cards worth anywhere from $8k to $15k (not really sure, honestly). I'm assuming for the sake of argument that nobody is claiming I should have left these cards at home, 11 hours away, because we all understand that last minute changes to decklists, or last minute deck changes entirely, happen.

Where should my collection be during the tournament?

- I stayed in a pretty cheap hotel. It wouldn't be hard to break into the hotel, honestly, and I'm sure that kind of stuff happens. What if the maids randomly steal it? While I don't think it's likely that would happen, it's not out of the realm of possibility
- I could have left it in the car. However, GP Baltimore in particular had some theft incidents where cars got broken into. That doesn't seem like a good place for it.
- I could carry it in my bag with me. Now I not only have to be concerned with playing well, but concerned with not having my stuff stolen. Is this really what my mind needs to be on all day?

In the end, I left the binder in the room at the hotel. It wasn't stolen. However, standing at the GP before it started, we were talking and my girlfriend wanted to swap up a sideboard card and change a maindeck card in her deck. Guess who didn't have any of those cards she wanted? We managed to borrow the sideboard card, but the maindeck stayed the way it was. I find it to be silly that concern over theft is the only thing that impacted that decision. If I had felt that the Grand Prix was a safe place to have my binder with me, then she would have actually played a different decklist. That's actually a ridiculous statement, if you think about it.

I realize that in the grand scheme of things, it's minor, but I guess my final point is this; When you've traveled to a major magic tournament, there is absolutely no safe place for your stuff to be. Tournament organizers should do what they can to make the tournament itself as safe as they can, even though they can't be perfect.

I really think a bag tagging system would be pretty effective. When you enter, you get a wristband and a bag tag with the same numbers on them. To leave with a bag, you must have the matching wristband. If they don't match, you have to deal directly with security personnel to leave with it (i.e., if your bag tag has ripped and been lost, then you have to blind identify what cards are in what boxes in order to leave with it, and then they probably record your ID anyway)

Anywho, that's my .02.

J

Hoojo

03-13-2012, 06:48 PM

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I understand how this can greatly affect how participants feel about events they are in. I appreciate your feedback on this, and though I cannot guarantee a response, I have forwarded this incident on to the appropriate teams for their review. Again, thank you for reporting this and I apologize for any discontent you may have occurred due to these issues.

wotc response.

dontbiteitholmes

03-13-2012, 08:04 PM

I've previously laid out a plan to prevent probably 90% of theft at large events, it's pretty simple and cheap. Unless someone has a better plan...

1: Inform convention center staff and local police of unique theft concerns present at MTG events. Most likely these agencies would be more helpful if they were aware of the problem but have no real idea what is going on. Since it is the job of these people to keep crime out of the city, especially if it's concentrated in a 200 square yard area for 2 days, you could probably get at least one security guard to always be present at the convention site.

2: If you commonly hold large events get a decent resolution security camera system. You could probably set the whole thing up for under $2000 easily since there are infinite used wireless security cameras floating around and you would probably only need 6-8 maybe 10 absolute max.

3: Have at least one semi competent security guard in the event area. If something goes missing they can review the recording on site (I've reviewed a tape before it's fairly idiot proof, even easier on computer) and identify who took it.

4: "Professional" thieves are deterred, if they steal thousands of dollars worth of stuff they are on video and will live in fear of the cops showing up at their house to arrest them for a serious crime they could potentially do hard time for. Even if they do get away they will be especially cautious of ever going to another large event incase event staff is looking for them. "Casual" thieves (IE someone left their deck box alone on this table, I wasn't planning on stealing anything but now that it's out in the open I'll take my chances) are seriously deterred because they would now have to immediately leave an event they were likely planning on staying at for a while and even if they get away they could be later identified and banned by the DCI (even if what they steal isn't worth pursuing them legally after the event).

5: Let everyone know via signs, announcements, ect. that if you find something abandoned that isn't yours you raise your hand and call a judge or member of the event staff to take it to lost and found. Basically don't pick it up if you don't know who's it is to prevent misunderstandings. I personally do this anyways because I don't want to pick up a deck someone left on a table to take to the judges station then have the person walk up right when I have the shit in my hand and get the wrong idea.

6: If you want an added layer you could require wrist bands to enter the event. At the front door make sure everyone looks into the camera before giving them a wrist band so you know everyone's face is on tape or if you want to take it to insane levels require some kind of ID for a wrist band. Really this would be overkill though and probably 1-5 would be enough to significantly reduce theft. Without this step it's possible for someone to walk in with a hoodie and glasses with a hat pulled low so their face isn't on camera, but then you could just tell event staff to watch out for any sketchy guys walking around looking like the Unabomber's police sketch and not talking to anyone.

SpikeyMikey

03-13-2012, 09:46 PM

there's no use blaming someone else like the tournament organizers for you being robbed. it sucks but each person has to try and be responsible for their property.

this isn't a to's fault.

You're right. The TO has no responsibilty towards player safety or property. In fact, I propose that the next GP is hosted in the lion enclosure at the San Diego Zoo. If you get eaten by a lion, don't blame the TO; you have to be responsible for yourself.

When people are getting mugged in the bathrooms for cards, it's gone beyond "a problem" and into full-blown "epidemic". And let's be thankful that organized crime hasn't caught onto how much money goes through these events and stepped in. Seriously, 3 guys with guns and a getaway driver could walk away from a tournament with a quarter of a million in cash and lightweight loot in under 10 minutes. How many of those dealers do you think show up with less than $10,000 in cash? $20,000? $30,000?

These guys bring enough money to buy entire collections. Not an entire collection. Several. Because who wants to miss out on flipping $12,000 worth of cards at a 20-30% profit? You wouldn't even have to touch the players. You leave one gunman to watch the crowd for heroes and two to organize the looting of the vendors. 2-3 minutes in the door, 4-5 commiting the actual robbery, 2-3 minutes out again. Cut 4 ways (3 gunmen, 1 driver), you just made 60k each in 10 minutes. And there is no security. There are no cameras. There are no hidden dye packs, no marked bills. I mean seriously, if I were a shadier person, I wouldn't be talking about this on some forums, I'd be fucking doing it. Instead of working 70 hour weeks, I could make the same amount of money with a week of planning, $200 in travel expenses and 10 minutes of actual work.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

03-13-2012, 09:52 PM

awesome plans

I'm in. PM me.

SpikeyMikey

03-13-2012, 10:24 PM

I'm in. PM me.

Haha, when I put the crew together, you'll be the first guy I call. We'll just have to kill all these witnesses here to our plan. Shouldn't take more than a year or two to travel around the country and mop them all up.

dontbiteitholmes

03-13-2012, 10:58 PM

You're right. The TO has no responsibilty towards player safety or property. In fact, I propose that the next GP is hosted in the lion enclosure at the San Diego Zoo. If you get eaten by a lion, don't blame the TO; you have to be responsible for yourself.

When people are getting mugged in the bathrooms for cards, it's gone beyond "a problem" and into full-blown "epidemic". And let's be thankful that organized crime hasn't caught onto how much money goes through these events and stepped in. Seriously, 3 guys with guns and a getaway driver could walk away from a tournament with a quarter of a million in cash and lightweight loot in under 10 minutes. How many of those dealers do you think show up with less than $10,000 in cash? $20,000? $30,000?

These guys bring enough money to buy entire collections. Not an entire collection. Several. Because who wants to miss out on flipping $12,000 worth of cards at a 20-30% profit? You wouldn't even have to touch the players. You leave one gunman to watch the crowd for heroes and two to organize the looting of the vendors. 2-3 minutes in the door, 4-5 commiting the actual robbery, 2-3 minutes out again. Cut 4 ways (3 gunmen, 1 driver), you just made 60k each in 10 minutes. And there is no security. There are no cameras. There are no hidden dye packs, no marked bills. I mean seriously, if I were a shadier person, I wouldn't be talking about this on some forums, I'd be fucking doing it. Instead of working 70 hour weeks, I could make the same amount of money with a week of planning, $200 in travel expenses and 10 minutes of actual work.

Robbing 400 people is a little harder than you make it sound. First off most convention centers are constantly patrolled by security and police. Second, even with guns you can't control 400 people, one or two will slip out the back and call the cops as soon as you get started. The cops would be all over that situation. We should probably stick to preventing crimes that actually happen.

baghdadbob

03-13-2012, 11:58 PM

To take Vacrix's idea a step further, why not set up the entire process? Leave a bag sitting out, have someone subtly pick it up (who's in on the whole thing), and have security/judges escort him from the premises. Make a big scene showing what happens to thieves. It could go a long way towards preventing theft.

Or maybe it's just better to leave out dummy bags and cart out the actual thieves. Just a thought.

I agree with you completely, for most "complex" problems there is a simple answer like this. Just acquire enough people to make sure that 1 person is caught and that will usually create results. If not continue until results are shown. Seriously though just get together enough money to have some bacon or turkey bacon (if you know what i mean) stand guard (undercover) for like three or four hours, place a trap, and have that mother fucker arrested when he pulls that stealing bullshit. This will generally discourage people from stealing especially if you plop this on the front page of mtgthesource/channelfireball/salvation/etc. Just put the title of the piece "Undercover Crackdowns on Card Thieves Net 5 Assholes Who Think They're A Wood Elf" or something...

bruizar

03-14-2012, 03:45 AM

Yeah... and then the bystanders who mistake the act for the real thing go crazy and beat him to pulp. Explain that to the cops.

SpikeyMikey

03-14-2012, 08:12 PM

Robbing 400 people is a little harder than you make it sound. First off most convention centers are constantly patrolled by security and police. Second, even with guns you can't control 400 people, one or two will slip out the back and call the cops as soon as you get started. The cops would be all over that situation. We should probably stick to preventing crimes that actually happen.

Really? Did you see the event staff on hand in Indy? None of them were security guards. There were no patrolling police. That's the whole point of this thread is that there is absolutely no security at these events.

And whether or not someone calls the police, the response time isn't going to be fast enough to stop you from getting out of there. You act like someone calls 911 and an officer magically appears, badge in one hand, gun in the other. You're not concerned about keeping 1600 people off their cell phones, you're concerned with keeping someone from trying to tackle you with some stupid idea of being a hero.

I'm just saying, the only reason it hasn't happened yet is because serious criminals haven't caught on to the amount of money flowing in there.

Aggro_zombies

03-14-2012, 08:17 PM

Really? Did you see the event staff on hand in Indy? None of them were security guards. There were no patrolling police. That's the whole point of this thread is that there is absolutely no security at these events.

And whether or not someone calls the police, the response time isn't going to be fast enough to stop you from getting out of there. You act like someone calls 911 and an officer magically appears, badge in one hand, gun in the other. You're not concerned about keeping 1600 people off their cell phones, you're concerned with keeping someone from trying to tackle you with some stupid idea of being a hero.

I'm just saying, the only reason it hasn't happened yet is because serious criminals haven't caught on to the amount of money flowing in there.
I think a more important point is, rather than discussing hypothetical scenarios out of an action movie/episode of 24, it would be better to discuss what DOES actually happen at these events: petty theft by attendees who may or may not be players in the event, and larger theft by professional local thieves outside of the venues (or relatively close to them).

SpikeyMikey

03-14-2012, 08:25 PM

I think a more important point is, rather than discussing hypothetical scenarios out of an action movie/episode of 24, it would be better to discuss what DOES actually happen at these events: petty theft by attendees who may or may not be players in the event, and larger theft by professional local thieves outside of the venues (or relatively close to them).

Yeah, that's fair, I was just pointing out that we've been rather lucky. Armed robberies DO happen, it's not some wild, impossible scenario. We've just dodged it so far.

I like the idea of the bait bag, but I don't think you're going to catch a lot of thieves that way. More opportunists than anything. I mean, as nice an idea as it is to say, "if you're careful with your stuff, this won't happen to you, so be careful" that's not the case. Some of these guys are professional thieves. All of us are amateurs when it comes to security work. There's a skill level disparity there that's likely going to prevent us from catching them all.

n00bas4urus_r3x

03-14-2012, 09:02 PM

Seems like airport style temporary lockers seem like they could be useful for players to keep bags/cards in. Not sure if those could be rented for events.

Proximity alarms might be worthwhile for players to look into. It should be fairly obvious to everyone when someone is running off with a bag that's beeping loudly.

Link (http://www.thespyshop.com/product.sc?categoryId=10&productId=222)

DrJones

03-16-2012, 08:31 PM

This is all WotC's fault for allowing their game to be as prohibitively expensive to play as they could, so that stealing a magic collection becomes more profitable than robbing a bank. :rolleyes:

I mean, Aaron Forsythe got his entire collection stolen and realized how stupid it was to make an investment in pieces of cardboard that you can't protect in any way. Starcity Games got robbed, too, and they couldn't identify the thief on ebay because their cards weren't marked in any way.

Fortunately WotC started to allow legacy players to play altered cards in tournaments, so if you alter a tarmogoyf and someone steals it, you can at least identify it if you catch the thief (otherwise, he'll try to pass the stolen goods as cards he has brought with himself).

Anyways, the root of this problem is that the Magic community is one of the worst in the gaming community (which is already terrible to begin it). Add to it that WotC uses greed as a marketing tactic, rightfully attracting the worst scum on this face of the planet; that gamers are a terribly easy target for thieves; and that magic tournaments requiring all the people at the event to pay attention to a table at all times makes stealing a bag as easy as just going there and picking it.

You know, if a judge can "steal" your deck in front of you and your opponent without any of you realizing, it's because you can't pay attention to your surroundings while playing this damn game.