BW Good Stuff

[klaus]

Hey folks,
I'm sure there are a couple of threads out there already that use a rather similar core.
@ mods: if this list is too close to anything, feel free to merge it

I've been building, testing and tweaking the list below and have to say it sure feels powerful and is a blast to play. atm I'm not really sure what I'd change beyond a meta'd SB. So I'd be happy to get your feedback on the choices / numbers you find questionable!
Thanks in advance!

"BW Good Stuff" (updated version)

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Smother
1 Darkblast
3 Vindicate

4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
4 Lingering Souls
(-36-)

4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
9 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
(-24-)

SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Damnation
1 Serum Powder

Cards that didn't make it in:
---> creatures: they just don't belong in this deck. Sorin and Liliana are nice finishers - so far the deck didn't feel like it lacked wincons.
---> Thoughtseize over Duress. Though TS does fit better into aggro strategies, I've been pleased with its performances so far. After butchering your opponent's mana resources, it's nice to pick off those Goyfs before they assemble the mana to cast them.
---> Karakas: Other than with Stonblade.dec you don't have your own bouncable creatures plus there aren't any cantrips to find that singleton when needed. Plus I luv myself a stable mana base.

Thanks for your feedback! :smile:

[Hanni]

I question if Sorin alone is enough of a win condition to get there. I mean, if the opponent deals with the first Sorin and then hits you with a Surgical Extraction, that's pretty much game.

Maybe you could afford to run Lingering Souls, Mishra's Factory, or Elspeth as an additional win condition?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Just to play devil's advocate for a minute (not to be an asshole)...

Why play Sinkhole/Wasteland in a deck that can't capitalize on the opponent being manascrewed by presenting a clock or assembling the win?

Why run Sorin, Lord of Innistrad in a deck that can't really capitalize on his +1/+0 to all creatures emblem? For that matter, why run him over Elspeth at all in this deck?

This list seems a bit like a mishmash of black and white "control" type of cards, without much thought as to how you're actually going to win the game. I think Sorin tokens are pretty shabby as your only win condition.

[Greenpoe]

I think you'll want to drop Sinkhole for Bitterblossom. Adds to your ways to win, and the tokens block or stall. Its good with Sorin, too.

[klaus]

I think you'll want to drop Sinkhole for Bitterblossom. Adds to your ways to win, and the tokens block or stall. Its good with Sorin, too.

Nice input - I'll rty that and see whether the life loss isn't too bad.

@ Hanni & Duke: Thanks! For your feedback. I considered Elspeth briefly but didn't include her due to her WW cost which can be tricky at times.

[Freggle]

Nice input - I'll rty that and see whether the life loss isn't too bad.

@ Hanni & Duke: Thanks! For your feedback. I considered Elspeth briefly but didn't include her due to her WW cost which can be tricky at times.

Actually Sinkhole should be Smallpox.

I also feel Thoughtseize should be Inquisition of Kozilek because your opponent should never be able to cast anything over 3.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

I have played and built many B/W mid range and control decks before, I agree they can be a blast to play, I have a pretty unhealthy love for Vindicates...

I agree with what DukeDemonKnight has suggested, I don't think the deck really gets the most mileage of Sorin as is possible.

I might try one of these two different approaches. Either open up the manabase a bit more and make WW more accessible (remember, you only need WW on turn 4 for Elspeth, or possibly Wrath in g2/3 if that's in your side). In this case, I would just play 2x Elspeth and have a flex slot. Or, if you were really keen on using Sorin, I would then make cuts to allow for 4 Lingering Souls. The card really gives the deck legs, a decent enough clock and the card has really wicked synergy with Sorin, as has been mentioned above.

Cool deck idea.

[klaus]

Actually Sinkhole should be Smallpox.

I also feel Thoughtseize should be Inquisition of Kozilek because your opponent should never be able to cast anything over 3.

Very valuable input.
I'm 100% positive Inquisition of K. is the right call.
I'll test Smallpox as well but I think it might be too greedy even though it looks nice on paper - I'll let you know how they performed.

Edit:
I updated the list above.

[Hanni]

or possibly Wrath in g2/3 if that's in your side

Damnation's going to be alot better in this deck than Wrath of God.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Damnation's going to be alot better in this deck than Wrath of God.

Yes, it will be. Much better, good catch.

[Freggle]

I also understand that you are trying to get the most milage out of your board by running an Enlightened Tutor driven list, but when you have on color access to the be-all-end-all in graveyard hate (Leyline of the Void) I think it is a mistake not to run it.

[klaus]

I also understand that you are trying to get the most milage out of your board by running an Enlightened Tutor driven list, but when you have on color access to the be-all-end-all in graveyard hate (Leyline of the Void) I think it is a mistake not to run it.
I'm undecided on this one, since finding that Leyline in your starting hand is too much of a gamble for me - plus I have no actual means to keep my opponents from bouncing / Nature's Claiming it.

What is everyone else's opinion on that?
What is everyone's opinion on Gerrard's Verdict in the Sinkhole slot?

Anyway: I'll test it for a while and see how it fares..

EDIT: Updated the opening list.

[Freggle]

I'm undecided on this one, since finding that Leyline in your starting hand is too much of a gamble for me - plus I have no actual means to keep my opponents from bouncing / Nature's Claiming it.

What is everyone else's opinion on that?
What is everyone's opinion on Gerrard's Verdict in the Sinkhole slot?

Anyway: I'll test it for a while and see how it fares..

EDIT: Updated the opening list.
It is for situations like this:

U.Sea, Entomb -> Inkwell Leviathan go.

Scrubland, Enlightened Tutor ->Relic on top go.

Exhume


vs. Leyline of the Void beginning of the game.

U.Sea Brainstorm exiled go...

Relic / cage / ... all allow graveyard players to progress their yard (albeit cautiously) whereas Leyline just simply just says no. It makes anything other than filter cards completely dead.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

I think Gerrard's Verdict pretty much became moot when Tidehollow Sculler got printed.

[klaus]

I think Gerrard's Verdict pretty much became moot when Tidehollow Sculler got printed.

We're talking about a creatureless build however.
I actually considered Sculler for the SB, but opted for Canonist.

I just ask myself whether 4 Inquisition of K., Hymn, Liliana AND G.'s Verdict is overkill on the discard side.

I'm looking for a CMC2 replacement for Sinkhole atm, but can't seem to find a fully convincing alternative.

@ Freggle:
What do you think about my current Serum Powder tech for the SB? (s.a.)

[Freggle]

@ Freggle:
What do you think about my current Serum Powder tech for the SB? (s.a.)

Not needed. There are stats out there somewhere proving you have to be extremely unlucky to not mull into one. I'd pack more business spells.

What if you TRIED them main in that questionable 2CMC slot?

It stops Snapcaster, Lingering Souls, most of the time Hightide.dec, dredge, Loam and other random stuff.

This takes the risk out of running so much discard. [shrug]

...or you could look at the easier to cast Wrench Mind or the free Snuff Out over Gerrard's

[klaus]

Updated the list in the OP.
It's runs extremely smoothly now.
Changes:
-4 Sinkhole
+4 Gerrard's Verdict

And this is my current SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Damnation

Considering:
-4 Inquisition of Kozilek (it's less powerfull w/o Sinkhole, since your opponents will be able to cast CMC 4 spells)
+4 Thoughtseize
____________________________________
Thoughts?

[catmint]

Except for Hymn and possibly Plainswalkers all your cards trade 1:1.
-> you will have troubles against decks that grind better than yours: i.e UW Stoneblade, Nic Fit

you have a lot of disruption but you do not have a clock.
-> you will have Problems against some very linear decks: i.e.: Burn, Combo (they recover from your discard and draw new stuff while you sit on creature removal an 1/1 tokens.)

My suggestion:
loose some of the disruption and include more wincons: i.e: lingering souls, bitterblossom, SFM

-> the more you learn and improve the deck the more it will look like deadguy ale. I suggest you post some suggestions about playing tokens instead of creatures in the Deadguy ale or Tokenmania thread.

[klaus]

Except for Hymn and possibly Plainswalkers all your cards trade 1:1.
-> you will have troubles against decks that grind better than yours: i.e UW Stoneblade, Nic Fit

you have a lot of disruption but you do not have a clock.
-> you will have Problems against some very linear decks: i.e.: Burn, Combo (they recover from your discard and draw new stuff while you sit on creature removal an 1/1 tokens.)

My suggestion:
loose some of the disruption and include more wincons: i.e: lingering souls, bitterblossom, SFM

-> the more you learn and improve the deck the more it will look like deadguy ale. I suggest you post some suggestions about playing tokens instead of creatures in the Deadguy ale or Tokenmania thread.

Hey catmint, thanks for your input.
4 Hymn
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Liliana
4 Sorin
All of those 16 cards mean C/A - that's almost half of my business spells.
I've thought about more wincons but surprisingly I don't miss them during testing.
Liliana IS a wincon - that's something that I learned over the last weeks - your opponents will loose their hand all of their creatures - the infinite amount of removal (4 STP 4 I.Blood 4 Vindicate) guarantee that the board is clean when she hits.
8 wincons is an okay number if you have 4 Tops to find them.
I agree 10 might be the correct number in theory but my current win ratio is very promising. I'd love to sneak in 2 Lingering Souls one way or another though, discarding them to Liliana must be nice...

[Freggle]

Hey Klaus

For what it's worth here is a deck I slapped together a few weeks ago, and just kept together because it tested FAR better than I thought it would. It runs Dark Depth / Hexmage as one wincon. It's harder to disrupt than I thought especially with cabal / bloodghast running a lot of interference.

I'm sure you could cut something for some Lilianas

White just seems weird for 8 cards and STP seems wrong in a deck full of sac effects.

Vindicate is superb, but is is good enough do warrant a splash?

Here is the B/g list (the g can be easily cut):

4 Bloodghast
4 Smallpox
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sign in Blood
3 Tombstalker
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Innocent Blood
2 Life From the Loam
3 Dark Depths
2 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy

2 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
13 Swamp

Edit: I guess some explanations would be good. The g give you waste lock in loam, and a good way to find Dark Depths.

Smallpox and Blooghast go very well together as well as bloodghast / cabal therapy. For as janky as it looks it's hard to belive but under soo much board pressure Bloodghast is an actual threat, and has won me many of games on his own.

[catmint]

Hey catmint, thanks for your input.
4 Hymn
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Liliana
4 Sorin
All of those 16 cards mean C/A - that's almost half of my business spells.
I've thought about more wincons but surprisingly I don't miss them during testing.
Liliana IS a wincon - that's something that I learned over the last weeks - your opponents will loose their hand all of their creatures - the infinite amount of removal (4 STP 4 I.Blood 4 Vindicate) guarantee that the board is clean when she hits.
8 wincons is an okay number if you have 4 Tops to find them.
I agree 10 might be the correct number in theory but my current win ratio is very promising. I'd love to sneak in 2 Lingering Souls one way or another though, discarding them to Liliana must be nice...

I did not read properly ... I thought it's geth's verdict not gerrard's verdict.
That means indeed more CA, but also means a lot more bad topdecks and bad starting hands... I guess 4 SD.Top are helping with that, but you dont have brainstgorm and can't correct hands. i.e.: 2 land, Thoughtseize, 2 hymn, 2 verdict. Just imagine it would be 2 lingering soul instead. :)

Infinite amount of removal with a lot of sacrifice should give you reasonable good matchups versus RUG delver and Maverick. Still I see no Problem cutting the weakest 4of (Gerrards verdict by mile) and adding more wincons. Especially because lingering souls has such a nice synergy with liliana and sorin!

[Hanni]

I second Catmint's suggestion. Cut the 4 Verdicts and run 4 Lingering Souls. Seriously. Souls and Sorin were designed to be played together. Also, like Catmint said, the tokens do a great job at protecting Sorin and Liliana, so that you can get the most out of them. Souls also makes Sorins second ability very relevant for you.

[klaus]

I second Catmint's suggestion. Cut the 4 Verdicts and run 4 Lingering Souls. Seriously. Souls and Sorin were designed to be played together. Also, like Catmint said, the tokens do a great job at protecting Sorin and Liliana, so that you can get the most out of them. Souls also makes Sorins second ability very relevant for you.

Thanks guys, I've included 3 Lingering Souls and like them. I went:
-1 Verdict
-1 Vindicate
-1 Sorin

If I get rid of all of the Verdicts, I'll have to find some CMC 2 card to replace them otherwise my curve gets messed up. 3 Bitterblossom come to mind, but I don't have room for the SFM package to include Jitte...
For reference - here's my current list.

4 Sensei's D. Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Innocent Blood
3 Vindicate
3 Sorin
4 Lilly
3 L. Souls

4 Hymn
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
3 CMC solution - - - - - - - - >> thoughts?

(+24 land)

[catmint]

I don't think the curve should be the most important consideration.

Since you are a control deck, you do not have to tap out every turn... also you can use your mana to use SD.top!

I can get behind cutting 1 Vindicate, but Sorin has to be a 4of imo.

I would suggest
-4 verdict
-1 vindicate

+3-4 lingering souls
1-2 Jitte / Nights Whisper / Beseech the Queen

[klaus]

I don't think the curve should be the most important consideration.
Since you are a control deck, you do not have to tap out every turn... also you can use your mana to use SD.top!
I can get behind cutting 1 Vindicate, but Sorin has to be a 4of imo.
I would suggest
-4 verdict
-1 vindicate
+3-4 lingering souls
1-2 Jitte / Nights Whisper / Beseech the Queen

Thanks catmint - I already implemented some of your suggestions independantly - So I guess we may assume that great minds think alike and the changes are sound.

For reference here's my current list:

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
3 Sensei's Divining Top ----------> 3 appears to be the correct #

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Innocent Blood
3 Vindicate

4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant --------> has proven itself. obtaining WW is not a biggy by turn 4
4 Lingering Souls
(-36-)

4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
8 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
(-24-)

SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Damnation
1 Serum Powder ------------------> curious about what you guys think about that unusual choice. Running 8 leylines 1 miser Powder seems justifyable +1ing both. Plus I loose to Dredge and Reanimator if I don't have it in my opener..

The deck flows surprisingly well and does not seem to have terrible MUs post-board.
Still I feel the list is a little low on CMC 2 spells, but a) I wouldn't know what to cut and b) I wouldn't know what to include*...

Cheers!
klaus

* Edit: Night's Whisper seems doable, but isn't it a tad too gready/slow - what's you guys' opinion?

*Edit #2: I've thought about Dark Ritual lately and will be testing it soon.
For reference: cards that would benefit from D. R.:
- Lliliana (turn 1 anyone?)
- Sorin (!)
- L. Souls
- Leylines
- Damnation
- and to a certain extent: Hymn, Vindicate, Top, Elspeth
----> I'd probably cut 2 Swamps, 2 Thoughtseize to make room.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------> thoughts?

[workingdude]

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
3 Sensei's Divining Top ----------> 3 appears to be the correct #

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Innocent Blood
3 Vindicate

4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant --------> has proven itself. obtaining WW is not a biggy by turn 4
4 Lingering Souls
(-36-)

4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
8 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
(-24-)

SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Damnation
1 Serum Powder ------------------> curious about what you guys think about that unusual choice. Running 8 leylines 1 miser Powder seems justifyable +1ing both. Plus I loose to Dredge and Reanimator if I don't have it in my opener..

The deck flows surprisingly well and does not seem to have terrible MUs post-board.
Still I feel the list is a little low on CMC 2 spells, but a) I wouldn't know what to cut and b) I wouldn't know what to include*...

Cheers!
klaus

Here is what I've been running with good effect.

B/W NoGuy (meaning no creatures)

2 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Dark Blast
3 Bitterblossom
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
4 Lingering Souls
(-38-)

4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Fetid Heath
(-22-)

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Perish

So here are the main changes from your list to mine:
1) -2 Inquisition of Kozilek, +2 Cabal Therapy: This gives you a 2/2 split between IoK and Thoughtseize. Also gives you Cabal Therapy as great followup discard (which is why I only run 2) after you've used the IoK and plenty of flashback fodder available in the deck.
2) +1 Sensei's Divining Top: Might be the wrong number and it is not great against a lot of the faster decks out there. I may want to cut 1 in the future.
3) -4 Innocent Blood, +2 Darkblast: Gets rid of all the x/1 annoyances there are in the format. You'll see that in my build, these -x/-1 effects add up over time. Once you kill the small creatures, StP and Liliana can finish the rest off. Also, people just arent playing BIG creatures anymore (other than reanimator).
4) +3 Bitterblossom: In your build, if you open a hand without a planeswalker, the hand would seem pretty lackluster and do-nothing. Bitterblossom is another token maker that fits into the curve well.
5) +2 Zealous Persecution: There is a reason why so many people are playing this card now. The gamut of x/1 creatures out there and it even works well with our creatures providing a small anthem effect. This can also weaken down the forces and you can use darkblast to finish off stoneforges and other x/2's
6) +2 Jitte: This deck feels like it needs equipment. Jitte fits the curve a little better. Could be better as one of the swords though, idk. -1/-1 effect works here as well in conjunction with all the other effects.
7) -1 Liliana: She is planeswalker that opponents will attack the least. Having more than 1 in hand, therefore, is going to clog up the hand. Also, only the -2 ability has really been stellar for me.
8) -4 Factory, +4 Wasteland: Sometimes there are just problem lands, that I'd prefer to deal with.
9) Engineered Plagues in the sideboard: Card is well positioned right now. Against top blue decks, plague on wizard kills clique, delver, snapcaster. Also, you can use the -1/-1 effect to compound with your darkblasts and persecutions.
10) Extipate in the sideboard: I never hate to see it
11) Perish in the sideboard: Brilliant against maverick, elves, progenitus. This card is the main reason why I wished I was running black in my deck during the last SCG 5k I went to.

[klaus]

Here is what I've been running with good effect.


Hey Mr. WorkingDude - thanks for the input - plenty of food for thought!

Edit: What's you opinion on Dark Ritual?

[workingdude]

Hey Mr. WorkingDude - thanks for the input - plenty of food for thought!

Edit: What's you opinion on Dark Ritual?


*Edit #2: I've thought about Dark Ritual lately and will be testing it soon.
For reference: cards that would benefit from D. R.:
- Lliliana (turn 1 anyone?)
- Sorin (!)
- L. Souls
- Leylines
- Damnation
- and to a certain extent: Hymn, Vindicate, Top, Elspeth
----> I'd probably cut 2 Swamps, 2 Thoughtseize to make room.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------> thoughts?

Turn 1 Liliana doesnt seem good. Swamp -> Ritual -> Liliana -> Discard a card takes 4 of your cards from your hands immediately. Havent really considered it, but it just feels loose.

Turn 2 Sorin would be nice, but in my games, I feel like dropping a bitterblossom T2, Lingering Souls turn 3, and then Sorin -> Emblem turn 4 is a nicer curve, and it happens quite a bit.

I dont run Leylines and I feel like the GY hate in my board is sufficient. DR doesnt help power out Leyline of Sanctity either unless you have fetid heath or some filtering.

Damnation doesnt feel like a great meta call. Other than green creatures, which are handled by perish, damnation doesnt seem to need to kill anything else.


Also, my original list ran 4 sorins 0 elspeths, but I think 1 elspeth is good. Having primarily black tokens can sometimes be a problem and elspeth provides relevant abilities, reduces the possibilities of having multiple sorins in hand, and is not a large strain with WW on T4.