[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Tammit67]

Also, TES vs Deathblade on SCG right now. Bard Narson lost G1 because he wastelanded a USea instead of the gemstone mine, letting silence resolve.

He had to read my Diminishing returns a couple times :)

I punted game two against him. I kept double infernal so I could generate lethal storm instead of a duress that would let me take the fluster. If I had done the math properly, I didn't need the storm. I got game three though.

Lost in top 8 to Chris Pikula on RUG delver.

Grapeshot'd my round 4 opponent after he failed to scope to a clearly lethal Ad nauseum. Will have a report up tomorrow I guess, I got some really good notes.

[sconnell]

Will have a report up tomorrow I guess, I got some really good notes.

Looking forward to it!

[PartyMonster]

Looking forward to it!

Second that

[Bryant Cook]

I top 8'd Jupiter this weekend. My only losses were to the same Deathblade player who over sideboarded for storm. No report to follow. List still feels great.

[TakeYourTime]

Grats to Matt Bevenour at SCG Philly! I've never met Bryant but kudos to him too. It's awesome to see people piloting real combo decks :tongue:

[Lemnear]

Geeeeez, i'm jealous of you guys 'cause I'm not able to play for quite a while due to an injured hand :(

[Dark Ritual]

I top 8'd Jupiter this weekend. My only losses were to the same Deathblade player who over sideboarded for storm. No report to follow. List still feels great.

Congrats. I know what its like to be over sideboarded against, and it fucking sucks. Seriously, some people completely misconstruct their sideboard for a given event.

Congrats to Tammit/Matt Bevenour on the top 8 too. Pity you had to face the worst matchup in the top 8 in the quarterfinals in Chris Pikula, who isn't a donkey either but rather quite good from what I've seen of his piloting of RUG.

The silence didn't actually matter G1 against Brad Nelson. He had FoW but no blue card to pitch to it and his 7 afterwards was incredibly bad/5 lands, JTMS, jitte. It could have potentially mattered, but it didn't in that situation. I loved how many times he read diminishing returns though, that card is fantastic for getting reads out of it.

[Basaka]

This has been an interesting discussion.

I try to err against mulligans with TES - if I'm not sure then I keep. I figure that if I consistently apply this strategy and find myself losing games from keeping hands that I wasn't sure about, then I need to mulligan more often. If not, I'm probably doing OK. If you don't try keeping less-than-ideal-but-potentially-ok hands like the one we've been discussing, you don't get a chance to see how often they work out. Converting cantrippy sculpty hands into wins is one of the toughest parts of playing TES.

It does work both ways - by keeping a hand I don't get to see what would have happened if I'd gone to 6 - but if I'm generally winning from those keeps I think I can live with that.



I'm not sure if I understand your notation, but it looks like you might have overlooked that LED in the top 4 opens up the sequence of Probe->Ponder ->Probe (response crack LED, draw whatever card you put on top.) For example:
Probe (draw silence)
Chrome Mox (imprint Ponder), tap for Ponder. Draw LED and put Empty on top above some other card.
LED
sea, tap for mana
probe (crack LED for RRR in response), cast Empty.

Multiple LEDs, or LED+DR can open up more lines.

At 2) you have DR+LED+IT into Goblins, but note that you can also access goblins off DR+LED+BW:
Probe (draw DR or LED)
Chrome (imprint Ponder), tap for Ponder. Draw the other of LED/DR and put BW on top above some other card.
sea, DR (BBB floating)
LED
Probe (crack LED for RRR in response), cast BW into Empty.

Granted, having LED in the top 4 is not likely, and having LED + other cards that get you a win less likely. However, if you are overlooking these sorts of lines then you might be undervaluing cantrip hands.

That is one line I didn't really consider, but again that will involve seeing exactly the right combination of cards within the top 4 cards. I've just never had many cantrip-heavy hands to evaluate. the largest local tournament I've been to is ~24 people, and the largest legacy tournament I'v been to had 63 (the annoyance of living in New Zealand!) so I don't get to play nearly as much legacy as I like (I think it was 6 weeks ago when I played with storm last?).

@Tammit67: grats on the run, looking forwards to the result.

[feline]

Grats Matt Bevenour, gotta love that Source playmat in the top 8 pic!

[Lemnear]

had to facepalm myself reading the T16 listing ... for SCG is every deck containing LED's and Infernal Tutors ANT right? Maybe we should consider EVERY deck with FoW + Brainstorm being called "Draw-go" in the future

[Zombie]

had to facepalm myself reading the T16 listing ... for SCG is every deck containing LED's and Infernal Tutors ANT right? Maybe we should consider EVERY deck with FoW + Brainstorm being called "Draw-go" in the future

It's not like it's difficult to identify them either ;___;

[Bryant Cook]

When the videos go live, can someone post them here with a link? I'd like to add them to the OP.

[TakeYourTime]

Grapeshot'd my round 4 opponent after he failed to scope to a clearly lethal Ad nauseum. Will have a report up tomorrow I guess, I got some really good notes.

Why was I not called to the table to see this?!?

I think all grapeshot kills should be taped and saved to a YouTube channel. It was so funny when Bryant did a grapeshot kill on scg live.

[Tammit67]

Report up: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26290-5th-at-Star-City-Philadelphia-with-T-E-S&p=733195#post733195 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26290-5th-at-Star-City-Philadelphia-with-T-E-S&p=733195#post733195)

On camera feature match which at the time of this writing can be found here:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/420833875
at time 4:51:00
Haven't watched it yet, I'm sure there are a lot of mistakes.

[Megadeus]

I thought I recognized the name when I saw the top 8. Congrats man.

Also watching the game, god I hate listening to them attempt to figure out what is going on

[Tammit67]

I thought I recognized the name when I saw the top 8. Congrats man.

Also watching the game, god I hate listening to them attempt to figure out what is going on

They did see the missed duress line of play game 2 although they didn't see the duress line was lethal. They didn't see that I boarded in the Tendrils or so. I think they did a reasonable job, at least on this match, noticing lines missed and taken.

Remember they haven't played these decks, how accurate would you be for just watching a format?

[Megadeus]

They did see the missed duress line of play game 2 although they didn't see the duress line was lethal. They didn't see that I boarded in the Tendrils or so. I think they did a reasonable job, at least on this match, noticing lines missed and taken.

Remember they haven't played these decks, how accurate would you be for just watching a format?

I mean these dudes watch this format every weekend... I feel like they should know what the decks are doing... Or not try to tell the viewers whats going to happen. If they don't understand the deck, they shouldnt predict plays.

[Tammit67]

I mean these dudes watch this format every weekend... I feel like they should know what the decks are doing... Or not try to tell the viewers whats going to happen. If they don't understand the deck, they shouldnt predict plays.

That's fair. I've absolutely seen the commentators do a worse job than they did here though

[sconnell]

Top 8 Chris Pikula on RUG (Dammit)

Thanks to being the higher seed, I am on the play and keep the following hand:
G1: 2 lotus petal, LED, Infernal tutor, ponder, brainstorm, gemstone. This is easily turn 1 for 10 goblins and a win, or it’s a probable turn 1 win if we hit certain cards off brainstorm, or it is an unprotected turn x win. I keep. I can hear Chas (from earlier in the story) whispering “You didn’t go for it? …bitch”. The line I took was wrong.
I go for the 10 goblins plan because I am not a bitch :( Chris had the force then wastelanded my only land and won simply from there.
I think in hindsight should have cast a cantrip, and I think in particular the brainstorm is the correct cantrip. I was up against a RUG opponent who knows what I am on and kept his 7 with little thought, he probably has what he wants against me. My line of play avoids the headache playing through stifle/daze/waste/pierce and there is merit in that, but being at good odds to get to brainstorm into a mana source I can play this turn to even just increase storm count is enough to convince me I played the hand wrong.

Tough. Going for 10 goblins turns the game into "Do you have Force of Will?" I'm not familiar with the RUG side of the matchup, but I imagine there are keepable hands without FoW, but I'm not sure what the chance is of a RUG player having FoW given that they have kept. It does look like playing brainstorm there keeps your options open.

[Lemnear]

Tough. Going for 10 goblins turns the game into "Do you have Force of Will?" I'm not familiar with the RUG side of the matchup, but I imagine there are keepable hands without FoW, but I'm not sure what the chance is of a RUG player having FoW given that they have kept. It does look like playing brainstorm there keeps your options open.

The point is that the hand offered a lot of lines to play other than throwing the game away if the opponent has FoW ... and that all for "only" 10 goblins. The options to wage are that your opponent does know your decklist in T8 (afaik), it's game 1, your opponent has a ~40% Chance of having FoW, your opponent is unable to interact with such a mass of goblins. The poker player in me, tells that the move for 10 goblins wasn't unreasonable and after hours of play understandable. Wouldn't bother too much about that one from Matt's side.

I'm more confused about the whispering here. I've seen people got DQ'd for such "outside assistance".

[Dark Ritual]

I mean these dudes watch this format every weekend... I feel like they should know what the decks are doing... Or not try to tell the viewers whats going to happen. If they don't understand the deck, they shouldnt predict plays.

They have to say SOMETHING. They're commentators and what are they getting paid to do? They're getting paid to talk. Rapt silence isn't exactly entertaining unless it's a super tense moment or something. The reason they whisper when the top 8 happens is because their voices carry across the entire hall if they keep on talking the way they've been talking for several hours straight.

Yes, SCG doesn't know deck names at all. I assume for deck name Tammit wrote TES? At least that's what I would do. Although I once called UB ANT frosted flakes for no reason other than because I could on a decklist registration sheet.

When the opponent knows your decklist I wouldn't blindly go for EtW for 10 turn 1 against a deck with 4 FoW and especially considering Chris Pikula is likely to know how fast TES can be so he might mull to FoW or he might continue to run hot and just naturally have it turn 0.

[Tammit67]

I'm more confused about the whispering here. I've seen people got DQ'd for such "outside assistance".

That was figurative and only in my head. No one actually whispered anything. Note the past tense "you didn't go for it"

Pikula said he was very unfamiliar with the matchup. It was still the wrong play.

And yeah, of course I put T.E.S. as the deck Archetype

[Jay_Gatz]

I've always been told to call it Five Color Goblin Aggro!
Edit~ Also congrats and sorry for playing ANT again.

[Lemnear]

I've always been told to call it Five Color Goblin Aggro!
Edit~ Also congrats and sorry for playing ANT again.

Remembers me mentioning quite a while ago, that TES is the best Goblin.dec in the format

[Bryant Cook]

When Matt's match goes on blip.tv for the individual match, can someone post it here or message me? I'm not linking to a five hour long video. I did include the report in the opening post.

Happy storming.

[Lemnear]

after watching: lol @ Brad Nelson

[PartyMonster]

Anyone have tips on playing Therapy to its full potential?

[Tom T]

Anyone have tips on playing Therapy to its full potential?

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-therapy-session/

This. And a lot of practice.

[Damoxx]

Anyone have tips on playing Therapy to its full potential?

Name what you fear.

[Bryant Cook]

Feature match video on opening post.

[Final Fortune]

For all of you guys running Cabal Therapy over Duress, what do you do when you win the coin flip and draw a Cabal Therapy? I feel like I get into a lot of situations where Duress would've been more mana efficient if I could've blind casted it on the play, where I typically have to play Ponder, hold Cabal Therapy and get hit with an Inquisition of Kozilek etc. It feels a bit awkward sometimes.

[PartyMonster]

Feature match video on opening post.

Thanks for keeping the op fresh

[Pelikanudo]

For all of you guys running Cabal Therapy over Duress, what do you do when you win the coin flip and draw a Cabal Therapy? I feel like I get into a lot of situations where Duress would've been more mana efficient if I could've blind casted it on the play, where I typically have to play Ponder, hold Cabal Therapy and get hit with an Inquisition of Kozilek etc. It feels a bit awkward sometimes.

I think at least in TES the unique slot comparable is Silence and this is the reason - You 'll need to keep silence to play it later and the same is aplicable to Therapy unless you have Gitaxian.

I think this is a matter of taste more than other thing. I just prefer running 3 duress 4 silence, but feel stronger with ANT with 4 thereapys 3 duresses in my meta - Still prefer playing TES...

[Tammit67]

For all of you guys running Cabal Therapy over Duress, what do you do when you win the coin flip and draw a Cabal Therapy? I feel like I get into a lot of situations where Duress would've been more mana efficient if I could've blind casted it on the play, where I typically have to play Ponder, hold Cabal Therapy and get hit with an Inquisition of Kozilek etc. It feels a bit awkward sometimes.

I always have the probe, so I can't give you a real answer. waiting a turn can usually give you enough information or they don't develop a board at all.

[Asthereal]

Just ordered a playset of new Modern Masters Cities of Brass to replace my Fifth Edition ones. That's going to look SO much better! :smile:

[Plague Sliver]

Just ordered a playset of new Modern Masters Cities of Brass to replace my Fifth Edition ones. That's going to look SO much better! :smile:

Why not Arabian Nights?

[jandax]

+1 ^

[Asthereal]

Why not Arabian Nights?
Same reason I don't have black bordered duals. Too expensive for me.
I'd much rather have all duals and all fetch and so on, than have only a selection of stuff but all pimped up. :wink:

[herbig]

Why not Arabian Nights?

He doesn't want to get blown out by City in a Bottle.

[PartyMonster]

He doesn't want to get blown out by City in a Bottle.

Japanese chronicles

[Plague Sliver]

He doesn't want to get blown out by City in a Bottle.

Word. Mine are strictly worse. (Shout out to sdematt for the hook up, though!)

Back on topic - I've been really enjoying this deck, bad beat stories involving 2-outers notwithstanding - but hey, nobody wants to hear bad beat stories.

I do find myself maindecking/siding out Empty vs Tendrils depending on the meta. That's been discussed ad nauseam already. I think the standard build is still the best, especially for a large field.

I can't help but think that this deck will be even better positioned post-new rules and post S&T ban. Detention Sphere is a thing and if Omnitell fades then people will be less prepared for combo.

I know others have attested to it, but this is truly one of those decks that rewards playskill. I had been practicing for a year before playing it in a tourney, and 20+ rounds of sanctioned play later I'm just starting to come to grips with the deck.

It's like a nice old bottle o' wine - better with age. And still has a lot of surprise value when opponents don't know Empty is a card.

[phazonmutant]

PartyMonster


He doesn't want to get blown out by City in a Bottle.
Japanese chronicles

Chronicles actually counts as Arabian Nights for City in a Bottle because it has the Arabian Nights set symbol (CR 206.3).

I just upgraded to some Arab City of Brasses and they look sweet. They're beat to hell, but that just means they have character. I had been playing with some Italian Renaissance CoB and they look pretty good for the price. Picked mine up for like $11, worth it. There's black-border Italian, French, and German Renaissance City of Brass available and the much more expensive Japanese Chronicles.
Edit - double-checked Librarities, looks like French and German Renaissance didn't include City of Brass. That set is so confusing.

I was dicking around with some friends playing TES against Drain Gush Control and actually won like 4 of 8 games. Empty is a hell of a card.

[Basaka]

Yeah, I use Italian chronicles. Does the job, and it ensures that I can fetch my duals up quick as they're the only WB cards in my deck now.

[jin]

I mean these dudes watch this format every weekend... I feel like they should know what the decks are doing... Or not try to tell the viewers whats going to happen. If they don't understand the deck, they shouldnt predict plays.

I want to upvote your post, but I don't know how. This is what I think every time I watch the videos. The commentators are really bad if they are being genuine. I just choose to believe that they are scripted that way so that they get a chance to inform the audience about what's going on in a more subtle way...

[JUNI0R]

Took TES to the mtgdeals tournament yesterday. I've been playing the deck for about a month but this is the first tournament with it. Punted a couple times, but still managed to top 8. The deck is was way more forgiving than I expected or it's just so powerful even i can't screw it up.

I read Bryant's sideboard guide the day before the tournament, it was one of the best articles I read on the TES and it helped me from screwing up my sideboarding choices (I might have over sided xantid swarms assuming people would side out removal). I noticed all day that most people have no idea how to sideboard against TES. Probes were showing me peoples hands with 1 or 2 dead cards and they were probably happy they drew their 'answers'.

I did have a couple questions.

On the draw against an unknown opponent (except I know they're running bayou) would you keep: gemstone mine, brainstorm, rite of flame, 4x dark ritual?

Does anybody have tips for matchups vs. heavy discard with a clock (Jund, BUG threshold, etc.) those were my hard matchups all day going 1-2-1 against the 2 jund and 2 bug thresh decks I faced.

[jandax]

That's the kind of hand that makes ya think, all right.
Your given info:
Your hand consists of 4 Rits, 1 RoF, 1 Brainstorm and 1 Gemstone Mine. They run at least one Bayou. You're on the draw.

This is where your matchup knowledge will help you decide to keep or not.

Decks with Bayou are either popular decks like BUG variants or Jund, or niche decks like Nic Fit, or other four color monstrosities. Lots of those decks run discard so keep to play with that in mind. If they lead with a spot discard, you're relying on the top of your deck. If they play Cabal THerapy, they probably know how to use it and will miss the first time around. Most Therapy players will name IT or LED, provided they know what you're on. Let's just assume you'll be one card down by the start of your turn, most likely the Brainstorm. Would you mulligan a hand of Gemstone Mine, Rite of Flame and 4 Dark Ritual?

They could also lead with a DRS, or some other spell that doesn't interact with you. If that's the case then that hand looks better and better. Given this situation I would not mull that hand. Not against a Bayou deck.

In discard heavy matches Past in Flames is pretty good. Either you fan open a hand that'll go off through a piece of discard turn one or two. Or you lay out all your artifact mana and play off the top of your deck. Rite of Flame and Burning Wish can get you there, Diminishing Returns and PiF will come out of your sideboard to get the storm up from nothing. That's another point, lay out your artifact mana so it doesn't get discarded. Watch out for Pernicious Deeds. Some matchups like BUG control are horrendous. They have all the things and if you don't draw the nut and go off turn one, the longer the game goes on the worse your life is.

[Holly]

Bryant playing the mirror right now !

[Squirrel]

and atm against Goblins. 1-1

"I think the goblin player is now boarding the relic of progenitus, because past in flames is the main way to win in ad nauseam tendrils"

bad commentator is bad. i hate them

[Megadeus]

and atm against goblins. 1-1

"i think the goblin player is now boarding the relic of progenitus, because past in flames is the main way to win in ad nauseam tendrils"

bad commentator is bad. I hate them

so. Much. Fail.

[Basaka]

and atm against Goblins. 1-1

"I think the goblin player is now boarding the relic of progenitus, because past in flames is the main way to win in ad nauseam tendrils"

bad commentator is bad. i hate them

To be fair they did say it was kind of marginal but better than nothing.

So he top 8's!

[Lemnear]

Does anybody have tips for matchups vs. heavy discard with a clock (Jund, BUG threshold, etc.) those were my hard matchups all day going 1-2-1 against the 2 jund and 2 bug thresh decks I faced.

You may wanna read the Reports in my Signature (especially No. 4 for BUG) for that.

[SaberTooth]

bryant is the best tes pilot out there, i really enojoy watching him

[JUNI0R]

You may wanna read the Reports in my Signature (especially No. 4 for BUG) for that.

I started reading those last week, too bad I didn't get to no. 4 yet. I'll bump that up on my reading list, thanks.

[Dark Ritual]

Congratz on the top 8 Bryant! Always good to see storm performing well and smashing people. I love these announcers. They say "oh there's lots of blue in the northeast, I wonder how storm combo can do so well." I destroy blue decks routinely, it isn't even hard short of the opponent being a lucksack.

I love how much they think ANT and TES are the same and that past in flames is the main engine. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Basaka]

I win more against blue decks than I do against non-blue (truth)

Watching the replay of the storm mirror... pretty sure you go like -1 EtW +1 therapy or something?

[Tammit67]

Back to back SCG events. Take it down!!

[Megadeus]

I win more against blue decks than I do against non-blue (truth)

Watching the replay of the storm mirror... pretty sure you go like -1 EtW +1 therapy or something?

Sounds fine. And yeah the real problems were Thalias and Chalices for me... Countertop was pretty annoying, but it doesnt see much play anymore. Tempo was just basically up to how well the tempo player draws/how good the players are

But I think a good storm pilot beats a good tempo pilot

[Basaka]

I can totally agree with that. I had a friend who boasted that he was 80-20 against storm with RUG delver... I proceeded to crush him 2-0 for 3/4th playoff at the GP Sydney side event (SB'd Blue elemental blast and Tormod's crypt? Sure, I'll take those cards in your deck.)

[PartyMonster]

When the video goes to blip can someone please hook me up with a link?

[phazonmutant]

and atm against Goblins. 1-1

"I think the goblin player is now boarding the relic of progenitus, because past in flames is the main way to win in ad nauseam tendrils"

bad commentator is bad. i hate them

Just watched that TES mirror. I was so hoping you were kidding about how bad the commentators are. That was fucking painful - they spent more time talking about how pretty the decks are than strategy!

Always interesting to see the mirror. I've played it a couple times and it's a lot of fun.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Is there a link? I was too busy getting raped at GP KC to watch the coverage.

[JJ-JKidd]

Congratulations to Mr Cook yet again!

[phazonmutant]

Is there a link? I was too busy getting raped at GP KC to watch the coverage.

Until blip gets updated, here's a link to twitch at the right timestamp: http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/427147076?t=2h32m30s

[PartyMonster]

Fuck yeah Bryant.

[sconnell]

Just watched that TES mirror. I was so hoping you were kidding about how bad the commentators are. That was fucking painful - they spent more time talking about how pretty the decks are than strategy!

"I think these two are friends because they have the exact same 75."

[Kayradis]

Im at work and I only have sound (shitty old computer) but damn. I feel like listening to baseball on the radio.

Dumb commentaries.
Wish they would just name the spells they are casting.

[Asthereal]

Yeah the commentators were terrible. Both had no idea what was going on. I actually preferred them to talk about how great the decks looked, because those comments actually made sense.

By the way, they were bad in general, not just during the TES mirror. In the Maverick vs. Tempo Thresh match afterwards one mentioned that Maverick was a good matchup for Thresh. Well, it isn't. It's definitely winnable, but it's definitely not good.

[Kich867]

Yeah the commentators were terrible. Both had no idea what was going on. I actually preferred them to talk about how great the decks looked, because those comments actually made sense.

By the way, they were bad in general, not just during the TES mirror. In the Maverick vs. Tempo Thresh match afterwards one mentioned that Maverick was a good matchup for Thresh. Well, it isn't. It's definitely winnable, but it's definitely not good.

I'm fairly certain they said the opposite, actually--that Maverick is the one with the good Thresh matchup. The sequencing was them talking about how Maverick had fallen out of favor due to a poor combo matchup (which is also patently untrue, Maverick has an amazing matchup vs combo against anything not winning on turn 1 and even then it sort of depends) and that it's current matchup, RUG, is actually pretty good for it. Which is an understatement, Maverick shits on RUG much like The Rock does.

[Asthereal]

Ah I guess I misunderstood them after all the nonsense the spat out. :wink:

[Lemnear]

Hmmm ... i'm curious about Bryant's game 3 hands in the Quarterfinals. Mull to 5 is rough here. May enlight me, pal?

[Bryant Cook]

Hmmm ... i'm curious about Bryant's game 3 hands in the Quarterfinals. Mull to 5 is rough here. May enlight me, pal?

No manas equals no keeps.

[Kayradis]

No manas equals no keeps.


Words 'o wisdom.

[phazonmutant]

Wow, I need to brush up on the deck. Just went 2-2 in my local. Lost a close match to Sneak and Show where I misassigned my role and lost a game I probably shouldn't have. I Probed and saw Misdirection, Intuition, Griselbrand x2, and a land, and then with Gemstone as my only land I stacked my Ponder: <top> | Rite of Flame | Cabal Therapy | Ponder | <bottom>. I had RoF, IT, BW, DR, LP in hand, so 7 mana once I untapped, just a mana or a color shy of a Past in Flames loop. I wasted my next turn Therapying Griselbrand because I wanted to disrupt him, then of course he drew the Force when I Pondered into a means to attempt to go off. I should have stacked Ponder above and waited on the Therapy until I was ready to go off.

Also lost to UWR beats. Game 1 lost to a timely Wasteland and Stoneforge which beat my 12 goblins. Game 2 I lost to mostly me being tired, but also Meddling Mage on Burning Wish. I can see why Bryant had trouble with this archetype in the top 8.


I'm trying to decide what to play at the Somerset invitational, how do you guys feel about TES's positioning in that meta? Bryant, how do you feel about TES in the invi meta after the Atlanta Invitational?

[Lemnear]

<top> | Rite of Flame | Cabal Therapy | Ponder | <bottom>. I had RoF, IT, BW, DR, LP in hand, so 7 mana once I untapped, just a mana or a color shy of a Past in Flames loop. I wasted my next turn Therapying Griselbrand because I wanted to disrupt him, then of course he drew the Force when I Pondered into a means to attempt to go off. I should have stacked Ponder above and waited on the Therapy until I was ready to go off.


- Stack RoF on top, Therapy 2nd, draw RoF and ship the turn
- Draw Therapy for turn
- Petal (storm1)
- Tap Mine for R and cast RoF (storm2) for RR
- Crack Petal for B and cast DR (storm3) for RRBBB
- Infernal for RoF #3 (RBB left) (storm4)
- RoF #2 for RRRBB (storm5)
- RoF #3 for RRRRRRBB (storm6)

Option a)

- Therapy for FoW (storm7) with RRRRRRB left
- Burning Wish for EtW (storm8)
- EtW for 18 Goblins
- flashback Therapy for Griselbrand or Intuition

Option b)

- Wish for PIF (storm7) with RRRRBB left
- PIF (storm8) RB left
- RoF RRRRB (storm9)
- RoF RRRRRRB (storm10)
- RoF RRRRRRRB (storm11)
- DR RRRRRRRBBB (Storm12)
- infernal for Wish
- Wish for Tendrils

Option a) is pretty Save but gives him 2 turns to lucksack (even if i can't come up with 2 draws which would Flip over the game in his favor). Option b) gambles that he does not draw a counterspell in his Single turn.

Can't explain why you choose to Therapy for Grizz and slowroll :/ (except my math was wrong, because RoF always confused me a bit ^_^)

[DarkJester]

- Stack RoF on top, Therapy 2nd, draw RoF and ship the turn
- Draw Therapy for turn
- Petal (storm1)
- Tap Mine for R and cast RoF (storm2) for RR
- Crack Petal for B and cast DR (storm3) for RRBBB
- Infernal for RoF #3 (RBB left) (storm4)
- RoF #2 for RRRBB (storm5)
- RoF #3 for RRRRRRBB (storm6)

Option a)

- Therapy for FoW (storm7) with RRRRRRB left
- Burning Wish for EtW (storm8)
- EtW for 18 Goblins
- flashback Therapy for Griselbrand or Intuition

Option b)

- Wish for PIF (storm7) with RRRRBB left
- PIF (storm8) RB left
- RoF RRRRB (storm9)
- RoF RRRRRRB (storm10)
- RoF RRRRRRRB (storm11)
- DR RRRRRRRBBB (Storm12)
- Cabal Therapy for xyz (storm13)
- infernal for Wish
- Wish for Tendrils

Option a) is pretty Save but gives him 2 turns to lucksack (even if i can't come up with 2 draws which would Flip over the game in his favor). Option b) gambles that he does not draw a counterspell in his Single turn.

Can't explain why you choose to Therapy for Grizz and slowroll :/ (except my math was wrong, because RoF always confused me a bit ^_^)

Option B should not be possible, because it requires 4 B if you want to cast your Therapy before the Infernal, so Option A is the correct one imo.

[Lemnear]

Option B should not be possible, because it requires 4 B if you want to cast your Therapy before the Infernal, so Option A is the correct one imo.

Indeed, so just skip the useless Therapy in Option b) and it works

Edit: I was free to remove it :)

[Bryant Cook]

Leaving A Legacy: Storming To Worchester by Bryant Cook (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26497_Leaving-A-Legacy-Storming-To-Worchester.html)

Opening post now contains new links.

[Opaco]

Leaving A Legacy: Storming To Worchester by Bryant Cook (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26497_Leaving-A-Legacy-Storming-To-Worchester.html)

Opening post now contains new links.

Congrats for the result!

In Round One, Game two: after Probing and seeing no hate, instead of therapying the Ringleader, fetch Sea, imprint Mox with Therapy/Decay and ITutor for DRirual. Next turn double DRit from Mox for Ad Nausem with 16 lives and a land drop plus whatever is drawn for the turn. Is that line of play reasonable enough or is strictly better to take out Ringleader as we will have better outs drawing the following turns?

[Bryant Cook]

Congrats for the result!

In Round One, Game two: after Probing and seeing no hate, instead of therapying the Ringleader, fetch Sea, imprint Mox with Therapy/Decay and ITutor for DRirual. Next turn double DRit from Mox for Ad Nausem with 16 lives and a land drop plus whatever is drawn for the turn. Is that line of play reasonable enough or is strictly better to take out Ringleader as we will have better outs drawing the following turns?

That's a fine line of play. However, I wanted to cripple the opponents chances of winning as well. I figured with most of the deck being mana I would've drawn one over the several turns I was attacked for two.

[phazonmutant]

- Stack RoF on top, Therapy 2nd, draw RoF and ship the turn
- Draw Therapy for turn
- Petal (storm1)
- Tap Mine for R and cast RoF (storm2) for RR
- Crack Petal for B and cast DR (storm3) for RRBBB
- Infernal for RoF #3 (RBB left) (storm4)
- RoF #2 for RRRBB (storm5)
- RoF #3 for RRRRRRBB (storm6)

Option a)

- Therapy for FoW (storm7) with RRRRRRB left
- Burning Wish for EtW (storm8)
- EtW for 18 Goblins
- flashback Therapy for Griselbrand or Intuition

That line definitely is correct. I fixated on casting Tendrils instead of realizing that Empty could just win with disruption, so I kept thinking I needed to IT for DR instead of realizing that IT for RoF is net +1.

Hell, I could read the guy like a book, I could even take his Intuition and Griselbrands if I didn't put him on Force. The only reason I went for it into his Force was I had already burned 2 rituals by the time I got a strong read, so I just hoped my read was wrong.


Bryant - congrats on the top 8!

[spike7777]

Leaving A Legacy: Storming To Worchester by Bryant Cook (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26497_Leaving-A-Legacy-Storming-To-Worchester.html)

Opening post now contains new links.

I didn't realize you were there- that's awesome. I went with a friend after only having played the deck for a couple weeks and got absolutely wrecked (went 3-6, losing at least 4-5 games to my own play mistakes that were so obvious I recognized that I'd misplayed as soon as I did it). I'm certainly not good with the deck yet, but I'm having a ton of fun learning as I go.

While I did really badly, I did get to match 1, game 1, turn 1 kill a guy on either UW or UWr tempo with ad nauseam -> tendrils for 13 copies. I got the biggest shit-eating grin on my face and it was probably the best time I've had playing Magic. Thanks a ton for the deck/decklist.

[Jay_Gatz]

Bryant, you should try to convince SCG to do a deck tech at the invitational.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant, you should try to convince SCG to do a deck tech at the invitational.

...and that was the last time Bryant Cook owned a Japanese foil version of T.E.S.

[Lemnear]

Bryant, you should try to convince SCG to do a deck tech at the invitational.

Plain bad idea I fear. I doubt you can explain more interactions than Infernal + LED into Ad Nauseam until your discussion Partner at SCG mentally blanks and need an ambulance because you have to slap him each time he says "Ad Nauseam Tendrils".

You don't expect people watching the deck tech understanding the SB engines while it's obvious that even a lot of the pilots have problems choosing the right Engine for given situations.

[Royce Walter]

"I think these two are friends because they have the exact same 75."

To be fair, we also both said we came from Syracuse and we looked like we were pretty chatty while shuffling up.

[Kayradis]

To be fair, we also both said we came from Syracuse and we looked like we were pretty chatty while shuffling up.

We probably all noticed that. Also, it was the only good comment coming out of the announcers.

[Royce Walter]

We probably all noticed that. Also, it was the only good comment coming out of the announcers.

I was a pretty big fan of "it looks like he's burning wishing for tendrils.... Our producer is telling us it's cabal therapy.... Nah, it's tendrils."

[Star|Scream]

I was a pretty big fan of "it looks like he's burning wishing for tendrils.... Our producer is telling us it's cabal therapy.... Nah, it's tendrils."

You're making this up?

[Royce Walter]

You're making this up?

I'm sure that's not the exact quote, but that's the sentiment.

[Lemnear]

It's pointless to pick quotes and drag them through the dirt. We already know all that SCG commentary could be better than it is.

Question: Are all those guys and gals responsible for the Video coverage volunteers or do they get payed. If they do this for (nearly) free i would be rather thankful for their work and overall quality. The worlds biggest tournament series, Bazaar of Moxen still lacks ANY coverage even in it's 7th iteration.

[Star|Scream]

I have a situation question.

It is your turn 3 against a discard opponent who plays no countermagic. You are at 14 life.

On the battlefield: LED, LED, Chrome Mox (imprint therapy), Lotus Petal, Underground Sea
In your hand: Silence, Ad Nauseam, Burning Wish
Graveyard: Ponder, Burning Wish


Can you win this turn?

I see a diminishing returns line, but PIF and IGG aren't showing me a win. Is it there?

[SaberTooth]

i think that your only way, if you want to win that turn is with diminishing returnss

[phazonmutant]

I have a situation question.

It is your turn 3 against a discard opponent who plays no countermagic. You are at 14 life.

On the battlefield: LED, LED, Chrome Mox (imprint therapy), Lotus Petal, Underground Sea
In your hand: Silence, Ad Nauseam, Burning Wish
Graveyard: Ponder, Burning Wish


Can you win this turn?

I see a diminishing returns line, but PIF and IGG aren't showing me a win. Is it there?

DimRet seems like a pretty likely win. You have a land drop, so only crack one LED to make it more likely to win with IT.

Most discard decks play at most one way to deal with a horde of goblin tokens, so you can also do an IGG loop into Empty for 12 tokens. If they have nothing in their hand that's probably not optimal, but if they have a loaded grip, Mind Twisting them might be good.

[Dark Ritual]

...and that was the last time Bryant Cook owned a Japanese foil version of T.E.S.

My thoughts exactly. While deck techs are nice for attention, showing that you have a deck worth over 10 grand seems like a bad idea. Noticed you swapped out the polluted delta. I'm guessing it was because of Reuben Bresler's commentary last time? I agree, that was pretty annoying and imitating other decks is very useful generally.

I would just DReturns in that situation Star|Scream. You're almost a lock to win that game with mana floating of your choice as well as a land drop.

Yeah, agreed on the commentary being awful. They couldn't tell what the cards were for shit, what was going on, etc. etc.

They do get paid to do coverage Lemnear and probably quite a bit. I know a guy who does coverage for SCG, but he can't disclose his pay due to a NDA of course. I would gladly do coverage as I at least know what all the decks are trying to accomplish and what the cards are. Only problem for me is I don't really follow standard because I think the format is super lame sauce.

Really sweet tournament report though, sad that you lost to UWR in the top 8.

[Star|Scream]

DimRet seems like a pretty likely win. You have a land drop, so only crack one LED to make it more likely to win with IT.



Are you sure it wouldn't be better to pop both LEDS to have mana available in case you brick on business but you do have cantrips?

[Megadeus]

Are you sure it wouldn't be better to pop both LEDS to have mana available in case you brick on business but you do have cantrips?

Possibly, but if you draw IT, and no LED and you rip multiple lands, you kiss your shot of doing anything that turn goodbye.

[Lemnear]

Are you sure it wouldn't be better to pop both LEDS to have mana available in case you brick on business but you do have cantrips?

I would pass on PIF and IGG because DR is unlikely to fizzle here. Pop both LED (RRRUUU) and get them back into your deck to draw them again. You can still drop a Land for B in Case you draw infernal and LED.

Having Access to Blue mana Post DR is vital to fix your grip with further cantrippin (Into a Wish or LED in most cases)

[phazonmutant]

I would pass on PIF and IGG because DR is unlikely to fizzle here. Pop both LED (RRRUUU) and get them back into your deck to draw them again. You can still drop a Land for B in Case you draw infernal and LED.

Having Access to Blue mana Post DR is vital to fix your grip with further cantrippin (Into a Wish or LED in most cases)

Those are definitely the correct options - go for DimRet either cracking for RRRUUU or only cracking one for nothing floating. Without doing the math I think that the chances of having multiple cantrips or not having another IMS for a ritual is less likely than either completely bricking off DimRet or needing LED to IT successfully, so I would leave one LED on the board. I try really hard to not crack my LEDs unless absolutely necessary, so that could be a bias on my part in this analysis.

In any case, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees DimRet is much more likely to win than any other options, and the difference to win between popping both LEDs and only one seem like 5% at most.

[Lemnear]

Those are definitely the correct options - go for DimRet either cracking for RRRUUU or only cracking one for nothing floating. Without doing the math I think that the chances of having multiple cantrips or not having another IMS for a ritual is less likely than either completely bricking off DimRet or needing LED to IT successfully, so I would leave one LED on the board. I try really hard to not crack my LEDs unless absolutely necessary, so that could be a bias on my part in this analysis.

In any case, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees DimRet is much more likely to win than any other options, and the difference to win between popping both LEDs and only one seem like 5% at most.

If you Crack only one (asuming for UUU) you reduce the Chance of drawing another one off DR or the following cantrippin and often results in forcing you to find not only a Black IMS but a red one too aka a Lotus Petal or a Chrome Mox.

Being forced to Probe, Ponder, Brainstorm into a lesser accelerant like Petal or Mox is nothing you want aside the fact that you have less mana in your Pool to operate with and that all for the Chance of drawing Infernal Tutor, a possible 3-off in postboard games (did StarScream mention if it was postboard?).

I'm 100% sure popping both LED's gives you the most mana and options out of the situation aka not being able to float a Single Red or Black mana into the DR

Edit: with RRRUUU Floating you can even pull off something useful with a drawn EtW or lonely Wish even if the Rest is crap.

[sconnell]

It is your turn 3 against a discard opponent who plays no countermagic. You are at 14 life.

On the battlefield: LED, LED, Chrome Mox (imprint therapy), Lotus Petal, Underground Sea
In your hand: Silence, Ad Nauseam, Burning Wish
Graveyard: Ponder, Burning Wish


Can you win this turn?


I try really hard to not crack my LEDs unless absolutely necessary, so that could be a bias on my part in this analysis.

In any case, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees DimRet is much more likely to win than any other options, and the difference to win between popping both LEDs and only one seem like 5% at most.

I also lean towards preferring to keep a LED in play when resolving Ad Nauseum or Diminishing Returns, for two reasons:
1. Hellbent
2. It's hedge in case I can't actually go off, which particularly applies for DR since it usually draws fewer cards than Ad Nauseum. DR will put the game in a better situation than it was in lots of situations even when it doesn't convert to a win that turn. In that case, it might be better to be able to have access to LED the following turn rather than potentially lose the 3 mana if you weren't able to spend it right away.

I know the question here was "Can you win this turn?" but there's still a number of ways that DR -> not go off that turn can still end up being a win. For example, you might keep LED, play a land for the turn and play a brainstorm/ponder to set up to win the following turn after untapping with LED + 2 land + mox. Or, you might go gold mana source -> silence on opponent's upkeep -> untap and win on your turn. Or, it might be that a discard spell is enough to get you to your next turn where you can win.

Without knowing the composition of the opponent's deck other than that they have discard and no counterspells, it's hard to know how important it is to be able to win this turn. If the opponent has hatebears or other troublesome permanents, this makes it more urgent to try and win this turn.

[Lemnear]

If you can't win after the DR in that situation, you are dead. You can't give your opponent a fresh 7 and seriously hope to not get blown out by Hymn, thoughtseize, counterspells or an attack.

[Machahiko]

Today played some games with friend and an interesting scenario came up:

He's playing UR delver, no cards in hand are known. He has 5 cards, 2 volcanic islands and steam vents on board. He has wasteland in the graveyard and he has tapped out to cast crucible of worlds. I have city of brass in play and my hand consists of these eight cards: silence, petal, petal, petal, LED, dark ritual, burning wish and infernal tutor. My opponent is at 18 and I decide to try my luck. My thought is that I'll try to play petals into the board and then try to silence him if needed. As I cast the first petal, he dazes it. I pay for it with city of brass. Petal resolves. I play another petal and he dazes it, forcing me to either let it be countered or sacrifice one petal to let another one resolve. I have an brilliant idea, I'll dark ritual with the petal on board! I break petal for B and cast dark ritual, my opponent casts force of will exiling stifle or spell snare. Either way, I now have petal, silence, LED, wish and infernal tutor in hand. No mana floating, my only land tapped and it'll get wastelanded next turn. I pass the turn - and proceed to win after few turns. But I think there was something that I could have done so much better with my 8 cards. How would you have played that situation? My plan was to play lotus petals on board and then try to silence, leaving dark ritual in reserve if needed to pay for the soft counters.

Also Lemnear, how do you do your notes? I'd like to become a better player and it would be pretty nice if I could write up all the plays so people could help me see where I could have played better. I'll need some training though since I'm an awfully slow player even without making notes. ;)

[sconnell]

Today played some games with friend and an interesting scenario came up:

He's playing UR delver, no cards in hand are known. He has 5 cards, 2 volcanic islands and steam vents on board. He has wasteland in the graveyard and he has tapped out to cast crucible of worlds. I have city of brass in play and my hand consists of these eight cards: silence, petal, petal, petal, LED, dark ritual, burning wish and infernal tutor. My opponent is at 18 and I decide to try my luck. My thought is that I'll try to play petals into the board and then try to silence him if needed. As I cast the first petal, he dazes it. I pay for it with city of brass. Petal resolves. I play another petal and he dazes it, forcing me to either let it be countered or sacrifice one petal to let another one resolve. I have an brilliant idea, I'll dark ritual with the petal on board! I break petal for B and cast dark ritual, my opponent casts force of will exiling stifle or spell snare. Either way, I now have petal, silence, LED, wish and infernal tutor in hand. No mana floating, my only land tapped and it'll get wastelanded next turn. I pass the turn - and proceed to win after few turns. But I think there was something that I could have done so much better with my 8 cards. How would you have played that situation? My plan was to play lotus petals on board and then try to silence, leaving dark ritual in reserve if needed to pay for the soft counters.

Also Lemnear, how do you do your notes? I'd like to become a better player and it would be pretty nice if I could write up all the plays so people could help me see where I could have played better. I'll need some training though since I'm an awfully slow player even without making notes. ;)

Opponent on UR delver: 18 life, 3 tapped islandmountains, crucible of world in play, wasteland in GY, 5 cards in hand (which are daze, daze, FoW, stifle/snare + X)
Us: city of brass in play, petal x3, LED, Dark Ritual, Wish, Tutor

it's going to be tougher to win if the opponent gets to untap 3 land, plus has wasteland every turn, so it make sense to try and do something

The opponent is tapped out, so we only have some combination of daze and FoW to worry about. At most they could cast 4 Daze, 3 Daze 1 FoW or 1 Daze 2 FoW. Hopefully something less than that.

Lotus Petals are your least valuable card so it makes sense to play them first to draw out counters (or build up mana for paying for Dazes if they don't use counters.)

I think the crucial turning point here is that you decided to use Dark Ritual before the third petal, opening yourself up to have it countered. I don't see the reason for exposing the Ritual to a counter when you still had a petal to play. Paying 1 to stop Daze on a lotus petal doesn't get you any extra mana.

How about this:

First couple of plays:
Petal - daze, 1 mana, opponent has 4 cards
Petal - daze, 1 mana, opponent has 3 cards
Let's say we play a 3rd petal here instead of opening up Dark Ritual to counter spells
Petal
You still have LED, Dark Ritual, Silence, Wish, Tutor in hand.
At this point you cast Silence (storm 6), hoping that the opponent's 3 remaining cards are not Daze + FoW
If the opponent has either Daze or FoW then you can draw it out with a Silence and then Dark Ritual, LED, IT -> Empty (or Tendrils if you have it main.)
If you have a really strong read on the opponent that they have a third Daze and no FoW, then it might be better to lead with Dark Ritual (no silence.) If the opponent Dazes, you pay. If they don't, this lets you use Wish instead of Tutor.

[Lemnear]

Today played some games with friend and an interesting scenario came up:

He's playing UR delver, no cards in hand are known. He has 5 cards, 2 volcanic islands and steam vents on board. He has wasteland in the graveyard and he has tapped out to cast crucible of worlds. I have city of brass in play and my hand consists of these eight cards: silence, petal, petal, petal, LED, dark ritual, burning wish and infernal tutor. My opponent is at 18 and I decide to try my luck. My thought is that I'll try to play petals into the board and then try to silence him if needed. As I cast the first petal, he dazes it. I pay for it with city of brass. Petal resolves. I play another petal and he dazes it, forcing me to either let it be countered or sacrifice one petal to let another one resolve. I have an brilliant idea, I'll dark ritual with the petal on board! I break petal for B and cast dark ritual, my opponent casts force of will exiling stifle or spell snare. Either way, I now have petal, silence, LED, wish and infernal tutor in hand. No mana floating, my only land tapped and it'll get wastelanded next turn. I pass the turn - and proceed to win after few turns. But I think there was something that I could have done so much better with my 8 cards. How would you have played that situation? My plan was to play lotus petals on board and then try to silence, leaving dark ritual in reserve if needed to pay for the soft counters.

Also Lemnear, how do you do your notes? I'd like to become a better player and it would be pretty nice if I could write up all the plays so people could help me see where I could have played better. I'll need some training though since I'm an awfully slow player even without making notes. ;)

I'm sure the correct sequence is to play all 3 petals and just Pay for the first with CoB, let the Second get countered, play the third, Silence off one Petal (meeting FoW), DR off the other, LED, Infernal -> EtW for 22 goblins.

I feel you just wasted your Ritual for the lesser Petals here.


On my writeups: Normally you may use your Opponents turn to Write up what happend and you can do it with all the known shortenings like "CoB, 19, Po (DR2, BS1, BW3), ..." For Cory of Brass, Tap it for Going Down to 19 and cast Ponder Stacking Brainstorm as the Top card, above Dark Ritual and Burning Wish. This should work for most notes. I myself use a combination of this and Stenography to Take advanced notes of complex interactions even during my turns while managing my Life and mana with a sheet of paper and dices.

Hint: I recommend a 4-dice-System, one Blue, Black and red and a 4th (clear one in my case) for stormcount

[Davek]

Hi all,

i have to say that i'm not a storm player - to be honest, i've always tried to fight storm decks rather than embrace them, but now i think i'm changing my mind. I've been running many different fair decks lately to some discrete success, but now my meta is infested by any kind of combo deck you could immagine, and there's nothing i hate more than losing from the mono-U dumbest deck ever seen (Omnitell) and its older brother (Sneak-Show). I mean, i think even a lobotomized guy could pilot those deck to a discrete success. But they are only the top of the iceberg, since i have to face Solidarity, Elves, Dredge, ANT and Food-chain combo as well.
So i'm seeking my vengeance, and i may seek it here.
I'm looking for something fast and brutal, something that could make them weep about how perfect was their hand if they had the time to play it, and this deck looks promising. I've tested Tin Fins too, but it doesn't look really solid to me. My main concern is that TES is really hard to test it on the net, because people tend to ragequit after seeing what they're up against and i do not have a group of friends to test with. So i'd like to ask you TES-veterans how this deck performs against the combo decks reported above. Thanks in advance!

[Zombie]

TES is a bad matchup for Omnitell from what I know. Doiscard-heavy Jund or something along those lines is apparently less than desirable, too.

[Lemnear]

Thanks in advance!

I can only offer insight against ANT and several S&T archtypes. You may wanna read some of the reports in my Signature for detailed info about those matchups.

However, I feel that the "new" Mono Blue S&T decks are so easy and resiliant that my honest advice to combo-freshmen is to either run Meddling Mage in their Blue decks (SB) or run easier combo decks than TES is. The deck is a beast which has a sheer unlimited angles of attack but that makes it insanly difficult to Pilot. If you just wanna "punish" other combo players, there are much easier options to do so

[phazonmutant]

Hi all,

i have to say that i'm not a storm player - to be honest, i've always tried to fight storm decks rather than embrace them, but now i think i'm changing my mind. I've been running many different fair decks lately to some discrete success, but now my meta is infested by any kind of combo deck you could immagine, and there's nothing i hate more than losing from the mono-U dumbest deck ever seen (Omnitell) and its older brother (Sneak-Show). I mean, i think even a lobotomized guy could pilot those deck to a discrete success. But they are only the top of the iceberg, since i have to face Solidarity, Elves, Dredge, ANT and Food-chain combo as well.
So i'm seeking my vengeance, and i may seek it here.
I'm looking for something fast and brutal, something that could make them weep about how perfect was their hand if they had the time to play it, and this deck looks promising. I've tested Tin Fins too, but it doesn't look really solid to me. My main concern is that TES is really hard to test it on the net, because people tend to ragequit after seeing what they're up against and i do not have a group of friends to test with. So i'd like to ask you TES-veterans how this deck performs against the combo decks reported above. Thanks in advance!

Show and Tell matchups are difficult, but with Swarm it's at least 50-50. Mono-U Omnitell should be better for you. Solidarity is going to be tough because of maindeck Flusterstorm, but they are slower than Sneak and Show, so maybe 45-55.
I've rarely lost against Elves, Dredge, ANT, or other durdly combo decks. Those are all easily 60-40 matchups, might be better.

I play TES on cockatrice all the time and rarely have people ragequit. Many more ragequit when I played TinFins :rolleyes:

[Zombie]

I like Elves' game vs. Storm postboard a lot nowadays. It might even be in Elves' advantage, but it's by no means free for either and G1 Elves are pretty free for TES. Just don't underestimate the little gits postboard. You'll regret it.

[phazonmutant]

I like Elves' game vs. Storm postboard a lot nowadays. It might even be in Elves' advantage, but it's by no means free for either and G1 Elves are pretty free for TES. Just don't underestimate the little gits postboard. You'll regret it.

That really hasn't been my experience. Very few have Mindbreak Trap, so they're hoping to what, Therapy you a couple times and then Hoof you around turn 3 or 4? That's just not going to work if the TES player aggressively Silence-walks and knows how to use all the tools at his disposal. For example, a non-lethal Grapeshot to nuke the board and stave off a hoofy death has won me a couple games. Every match I've played against elves with fast combo (this or TinFins) has felt like Elves was horribly outclassed.

[Star|Scream]

I'm sure the correct sequence is to play all 3 petals and just Pay for the first with CoB,

Does paying for the lotus petal help in this case? I guess if you pass the turn and they waste your city, at least you have a petal left, but for the immediate turn, does it actually matter if you pay or don't pay?

[Lemnear]

Does paying for the lotus petal help in this case? I guess if you pass the turn and they waste your city, at least you have a petal left, but for the immediate turn, does it actually matter if you pay or don't pay?

Not for you on the bill directly, but paying for the Petal with a City of Brass sends a clear signal to the opponent and potentially provoke additional counters on lesser accelerants (which happend as it seems).

It's a pure mental cheat on your opponent's perception which carries the nice side effect of battling Daze/Wasteland if you have to Pass the turn without serious action, which however isn't the intention as my example showed (aka creating a lethal amount of Goblins)


Edit: in essence, you'll use the Petal, one generic mana and 1 Point of Life to cast a virtual Hymn to tourach (stripping 2 Daze here)

[Ogh!]

However, I feel that the "new" Mono Blue S&T decks are so easy and resiliant that my honest advice to combo-freshmen is to either run Meddling Mage in their Blue decks (SB) or run easier combo decks than TES is. The deck is a beast which has a sheer unlimited angles of attack but that makes it insanly difficult to Pilot.

I strongly disagree with this statement. If you want to play TES, do it. After all, this is just a TCG and not topology; like any deck, you can play TES pretty well by relying on heuristics. And to develop these heuristics, you need to play the deck. People telling you ex ante that you are too inexperienced with the deck to even try it tend to glorify their pet deck a bit too much, in my opinion.

Also, the number of kill conditions is limited to the number of 3 (EtW, Tendrils, Grapeshot) and the number of storm engines to fuel these kill conditions is limited to 5 (natural, PiF, AdN, DR, IGG). Even though it's of course possible to combine multiple kill conditions or multiple storm engines in one gigantic kill shot, I wouldn't really say that this results in a sheer unlimited number of angles of attack. In addition, most hate pieces tend to affect the greater part or even all of your engines in a very similar manner, so these angles are really not that different.

@Davek
TL;DR: Please join the storm troopers. It's fun and it's definitely not rocket science. If you're willing to spend some money, check out MTGO. I've never experienced anyone ragequit and I play a lot of DDFT or TES there. It's also very rewarding to play there, since usually you're not paired with Average Joe from your LGS but some pretty high class players (not implying that I'm one of the latter).

[Lemnear]

Relying on heuristic with TES only results in a flurry of frustrating losses because you can't manouver you out of difficult situations. Players trying to Pilot the deck on such a level struggle to win without the obvious Infernal into Ad Nauseam or Wish into EtW, PiF.

TES isn't a deck to pickup the night before a tourney ... especially not if your Goal is to "punish" other combo decks.

[Star|Scream]

To be fair, the OP never said he wanted to pick the deck up the night before a tourney. He asked for a "fast and brutal" combo deck that could beat the other decks in his meta. That's all.

[Ogh!]

Relying on heuristic with TES only results in a flurry of frustrating losses because you can't manouver you out of difficult situations. Players trying to Pilot the deck on such a level struggle to win without the obvious Infernal into Ad Nauseam or Wish into EtW, PiF.

Any deck in the MTG universe is too complex to play optimally (in a statistical, expected value maximizing kind of sense) in any match for anyone but an autistic prodigy. That means you use heuristics (only the mentioned prodigy doesn't). You're not relying on your mind to solve hypergeometric expressions in a tournament setting to calculate the exact probabilities for your or your opponent's next draws. You're relying on your experience and maybe some calculation shortcuts. Which is not bad! Even in chess you have to rely on heuristics because it's getting too complicated very quickly for our limited human brains.

Of course, you still have to count mana and storm (preferably before going off). And know your interactions (retain priority and crack LED in response to this and that...). But that's easy and, as you're probably very well aware off, although one of the first but by far not one of the biggest challenges when playing TES.


TES isn't a deck to pickup the night before a tourney ... especially not if your Goal is to "punish" other combo decks.

I agree that the probability of doing well with a deck in a tournament is positively correlated with the length of the time span you've been playing it. Yet, I expect a dedicated person to be capable of doing already pretty well with TES after 5 (estimation method is pooma) hours of playtesting against a diverse field of decks (and reading this outstanding primer). The learning curve always becomes flatter. That's also true for TES.

[phazonmutant]

If you want to play TES, do it. After all, this is just a TCG and not topology


Any deck in the MTG universe is too complex to play optimally (in a statistical, expected value maximizing kind of sense) in any match for anyone but an autistic prodigy. That means you use heuristics (only the mentioned prodigy doesn't). You're not relying on your mind to solve hypergeometric expressions in a tournament setting to calculate the exact probabilities for your or your opponent's next draws.

Dude, Magic cards are way harder than topology. Optimal play in Magic is certainly no easier than EXPTIME (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXPTIME), and proving theorums in Topology is merely NP-Complete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_theorem_proving#Decidability_of_the_problem) :cool:

Anyway. Davek - TES is a hard deck, but if you want to play it, then just do so! ANT might be less frustrating to start with though.

[Tammit67]

I like Elves' game vs. Storm postboard a lot nowadays. It might even be in Elves' advantage, but it's by no means free for either and G1 Elves are pretty free for TES. Just don't underestimate the little gits postboard. You'll regret it.

Let's say you think storm beats elves 70% of the time preboard (based on their basically no disruption and slower combo in general, might actually be low?) but postboard elves brings in 50 cards and suddenly storm loses 60% of the time. Let's ignore the possibility of a draw.

Storm wins iff (means if and only if)
Wins games 1 and 2
Wins games 1 and 3
Wins games 2 and 3

Assuming independence between games that leads to

Storm wins games 1 and 2: .7*.4 =.28 =28% of the time
Storm wins games 1 and 3: .7*.6*.4 =.168 =16.8% of the time
Storm wins games 2 and 3: .3*.4*.4 =.048 =4.8% of the time

for a combined total of 49.6% of the time.

Now I don't think even remotely elves is that favored post board (even at best maybe but their combo is very diluted by sideboard material) and therefore I'm not worried about elves in the slightest. If we change the predicted matchup to 45%-55% storm to elves postboard we get an overall win percentage of 54.9% in storm's favor. You shouldn't have to worry about a matchup that you obscenely crush preboard unless their postboard puts it nearly as unfavorable for you as it was for them preboard. And nothing in the format does that 180 in preboard/postboard matchups

[Ogh!]

Dude, Magic cards are way harder than topology. Optimal play in Magic is certainly no easier than EXPTIME (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXPTIME), and proving theorums in Topology is merely NP-Complete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_theorem_proving#Decidability_of_the_problem) :cool:


You can deduce another pretty good reason for playing storm from this quote. The nerd level is definitly above average compared to the population of MTG players. It's chic to be a nerd! Or so I've been told. By mom.

[Zombie]

A combo-oriented plan postboard with Elves vs. other fast combo decks is wrong, and will lose you games. Expect lock pieces and discard, don't expect Glimpse. There won't be any unless the pilot is bad in which case you can thank him for free win%.
The warning was more to just not underestimate Elves or think they're free postboard, little else. With smart play it's at least even, perhaps a bit better. Just remember to play smart like a TES pilot should ^^

[Tammit67]

A combo-oriented plan postboard with Elves vs. other fast combo decks is wrong, and will lose you games. Expect lock pieces and discard, don't expect Glimpse. There won't be any unless the pilot is bad in which case you can thank him for free win%.
The warning was more to just not underestimate Elves or think they're free postboard, little else. With smart play it's at least even, perhaps a bit better. Just remember to play smart like a TES pilot should ^^

I understand :) Just reiterating it is still in our favor and there is a reason we cut the silences/duress/empty for decay/chains/therapy

[phazonmutant]

I understand :) Just reiterating it is still in our favor and there is a reason we cut the silences/duress/empty for decay/chains/therapy

So that is what the primer suggests, but I've personally been very happy boarding -1 Empty, -1 IT, -1 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Cabal Therapy and that's it. On the draw it's a little harder to successfully Chant-walk them, but on the play it's pretty trivial. They almost never will play out the blind Therapy on turn 1 anyway.

[Zombie]

So that is what the primer suggests, but I've personally been very happy boarding -1 Empty, -1 IT, -1 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Cabal Therapy and that's it. On the draw it's a little harder to successfully Chant-walk them, but on the play it's pretty trivial. They almost never will play out the blind Therapy on turn 1 anyway.

This does seem like the smart plan, and the reason I fear TES (and white Doomsday) the most out of all storm decks.

[Tammit67]

So that is what the primer suggests, but I've personally been very happy boarding -1 Empty, -1 IT, -1 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Cabal Therapy and that's it. On the draw it's a little harder to successfully Chant-walk them, but on the play it's pretty trivial. They almost never will play out the blind Therapy on turn 1 anyway.

Why wouldn't they blind therapy? Hitting LED before you play it or naming a tutor/cantrip/dark ritual seems really good. Blind game two name LED since it has the highest chance of turn 1'ing you then follow it up with a hatebear or flashback seems like a good way to disrupt storm no?

chant walk is less good IMO since the lands you can do it off of either hurt or or get sacrificed. The plan also deals with a resolved hatebear more poorly while slowing down the available resources to cantrip with. Harder to ponder at every opportunity when you are leaving that gemstone mine up for the upkeep silence.

I am curious to hear others on the subject. How many others have done chantwalking postboard?

[phazonmutant]

Why wouldn't they blind therapy? Hitting LED before you play it or naming a tutor/cantrip/dark ritual seems really good. Blind game two name LED since it has the highest chance of turn 1'ing you then follow it up with a hatebear or flashback seems like a good way to disrupt storm no?

chant walk is less good IMO since the lands you can do it off of either hurt or or get sacrificed. The plan also deals with a resolved hatebear more poorly while slowing down the available resources to cantrip with. Harder to ponder at every opportunity when you are leaving that gemstone mine up for the upkeep silence.

I am curious to hear others on the subject. How many others have done chantwalking postboard?

I don't know exactly why they don't, but Elves players generally haven't in my experience. I think they think that there's not much of a chance of us going off turn 1, and their turn 2 is much, much better if they can drop a mana dork turn 1 - it opens up Therapy, Elf, flashback Therapy, as well as GSZ for 2.

Compound that with the seeming inability for any non-storm player to know what to name with Therapy and I'm really not concerned with their turn 1 plays. Seriously, how many times has any opponent Therapied you on LEDs? I can count the number on one hand.

[Tammit67]

I don't know exactly why they don't, but Elves players generally haven't in my experience. I think they think that there's not much of a chance of us going off turn 1, and their turn 2 is much, much better if they can drop a mana dork turn 1 - it opens up Therapy, Elf, flashback Therapy, as well as GSZ for 2.

Compound that with the seeming inability for any non-storm player to know what to name with Therapy and I'm really not concerned with their turn 1 plays. Seriously, how many times has any opponent Therapied you on LEDs? I can count the number on one hand.

I usually run them out so they don't get the chance.

[Zombie]

I don't know exactly why they don't, but Elves players generally haven't in my experience. I think they think that there's not much of a chance of us going off turn 1, and their turn 2 is much, much better if they can drop a mana dork turn 1 - it opens up Therapy, Elf, flashback Therapy, as well as GSZ for 2.

Compound that with the seeming inability for any non-storm player to know what to name with Therapy and I'm really not concerned with their turn 1 plays. Seriously, how many times has any opponent Therapied you on LEDs? I can count the number on one hand.

I have some (not super extensive, mind you) experience playing Bryant's TES list and Grim ANT before going back to Elves again, so that may have something to do with my comfort in the match. *shrug*

T1 dork vs. T1 Therapy is probably the most difficult decision to make for Elves vs. Storm, especially vs. TES.

[Davek]

Thank you all guys for your insights! I like the idea of becoming a "stormtrooper" :)
I'll definitely test TES again on cockatrice, maybe i've been unlucky with my opponents lately..
@PhazonMuant: if it's not a problem for you, i think i'll look for you on cockatrice to watch you piloting the deck
@Lemnear: your reports are really full of hints, you did a great job (getting the girl's phone number too!) :)
I'm writing soon again, probably reporting some bad beatings i'm gonna take and asking for help

[phazonmutant]

Thank you all guys for your insights! I like the idea of becoming a "stormtrooper" :)
I'll definitely test TES again on cockatrice, maybe i've been unlucky with my opponents lately..
@PhazonMuant: if it's not a problem for you, i think i'll look for you on cockatrice to watch you piloting the deck
@Lemnear: your reports are really full of hints, you did a great job (getting the girl's phone number too!) :)
I'm writing soon again, probably reporting some bad beatings i'm gonna take and asking for help

Yeah for sure. I always make my rooms open to spectators, hands viewable to all, and spectators can comment so it's more interactive. My nick on cockadicks is Phazonmutant...because I apparently couldn't spell when I created my account on the source. Not sure how much Legacy I'm going to be playing in the next couple days, need to figure out this stupid fucking T2 thing for the SCG Invitational.

[Megadeus]

Yeah for sure. I always make my rooms open to spectators, hands viewable to all, and spectators can comment so it's more interactive. My nick on cockadicks is Phazonmutant...because I apparently couldn't spell when I created my account on the source. Not sure how much Legacy I'm going to be playing in the next couple days, need to figure out this stupid fucking T2 thing for the SCG Invitational.

Ill give you a hot trading post list to play

[Lemnear]

About time to participate in a tourney again after being 2 months away for work :/

[Tammit67]

About time to participate in a tourney again after being 2 months away for work :/

Good! I'm really digging your reports

[Lemnear]

Good! I'm really digging your reports

Thx for enjoying, but I doubt, these reports wield any kind of value anymore, once a Player reached your level of experience, Matt.

Those reports once aimed for newer storm pilots.

I fear i've lost touch to the metagame during my 2 month stay in France and Italy.

[Tammit67]

Thx for enjoying, but I doubt, these reports wield any kind of value anymore, once a Player reached your level of experience, Matt.

Those reports once aimed for newer storm pilots.

I fear i've lost touch to the metagame during my 2 month stay in France and Italy.

As long as I make mistakes, there is still more to learn. It's always good to see someone else's perspective, like with regards to the chantwalking against elves postboard

[Koby]

As long as I make mistakes, there is still more to learn. It's always good to see someone else's perspective, like with regards to the chantwalking against elves postboard

From personal experience, chantwalk has been my number one worst feeling as the Elves player. Modern Elves list don't run ESG, so any possibility of turn 1 hate piece is out of possibility. This means on the draw, TES can just regain tempo by chanting. So brutal!

[Star|Scream]

From personal experience, chantwalk has been my number one worst feeling as the Elves player. Modern Elves list don't run ESG, so any possibility of turn 1 hate piece is out of possibility. This means on the draw, TES can just regain tempo by chanting. So brutal!

I'm sitting here wondering why you're talking about Modern Elves....

[davelin]

I'm sitting here wondering why you're talking about Modern Elves....

Maybe modern as in contemporary, not the format?

[Star|Scream]

Maybe modern as in contemporary, not the format?

Yes, but that is not how I read it the first time around!

[phazonmutant]

Small report for a mediocre performance. I tried keeping notes so hopefully this will be helpful to you guys and hopefully you can point out some places for improvement in my play.

Round 1 - bye
1-0

Round 2 - Deadguy Red
G1 - He mulligans to 6 on the play. I keep RoF x2, LP x2, IT x2, Delta - a turn one Empty for 16 tokens in hand. He leads with Inquisition of Kozilek and fortunately doesn't realize the correct play of taking Rite of Flame or even Lotus Petal. He instead takes IT, I draw another LP, and Empty for 14 on turn 1 after confirming the Empty math out loud (14 goblins is exactly enough to beat a turn 2 Stoneforge into Batterskull). He scoops.
-1 Empty, -1 IT, -4 Silence, +2 CoV, +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Cabal Therapy
G2 - I mulligan into a hand with a couple lands and a Ponder, but no tutor. Ponder bricks and his t2 Canonist goes all the way after many Wastelands and no Chains.
G3 - I keep RoF x2, LP, Ponder, BS, Delta, Gemstone Mine. Mine into Ponder, stacking (top to bottom) IT, BW, Therapy with the thought that if he Duresses, I'd rather have the Wish, but if he doesn't, I can use the IT as a +1 R, +2 Storm by finding RoF. He Wastes after seeing that I tanked for a minute on the Ponder, but LP gives me the extra IMS to Empty for 14. Scoop.
2-0

Round 3 - Hoogland Loam
We draw into top8 (small tournament, bad weather) but play it out for practice.
G1 - He mulliganned and I kept a hand with a Silence and a couple cantrips, lands, and tutors with the thought that I can potentially Chant-walk him until I find the needed mana. Fortunately he didn't have the turn 1 Chalice, just a Dryad Arbor. GP reveals he kept PFire x2, Grove, Chalice, Savannah. I drop Mine and Silence. He plays a Savannah. Next turn I drop Sea, Ponder, and keep Silence, Ponder, IT, then Silence him again. He drops Grove. I drop a City of Brass and Ponder, find a Duress, and take his Chalice, then Wish for DimRet to attempt to go off next turn. He Zeniths into Teeg, then I can't find an answer before he beats down and Fires me.
-4 Silence, -1 Empty, -1 IT, +2 Chain of Vapor, +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Cabal Therapy
G2 - I make it rain with the natural Ad Nauseam turn 1. I pick up piles of cards off the top and throw them onto the field, 5 at a time. NBD.
G3 - I mulligan a hand of AD x2, IT x2, BW, Delta, Ponder and keep GP, Therapy, BW, Ponder, LP, DR (yolo). He doesn't have a turn 1 play, and I obviously rip the Sea. GP draws Chrome Mox, Therapy takes Thalia, revealing Loam, Decay, Burning Wish, Savannah, Taiga. He EOT fetches for Badlands, then got pretty upset when he drew a Teeg. Pass. At this point my memory gets hazy, but I do remember imprinting BW on Mox, Wishing for a DimRet in the attempt to go off with the DR, LP x2, and 2 lands in play next turn. He rips a Mox Diamond for the black source to be able to Burning Wish for Duress, which leaves me with pretty much nothing until I die. The other line was to wait until the next turn to play around Duress, but I honestly forgot he had it as a BW target.
2-0-1 (but really 2-1)

Quarters - UR Delver
G1 - On the play, I Duress and see Ponder, BS, Bolt, Bolt, Goblin Guide, Snapcaster Mage, Scalding Tarn, taking Ponder. My hand has a Silence and a as protection, as well as a couple lands, a tutor, and some cantrips. A couple of turns and surprising 2 Wastes later, I'm finally ready to attempt to go off into a weak Empty. I lead on Dark Rit, and his Brainstorm hits Daze and Force. Daze I can pay for, but he Forces my DR and kills me 2 turns later.
-1 IT, +1 Therapy
G2 - I probed, seeing no protection, then Pondered to set up for next turn. He dropped a Delver. I probed again to double-check, saw he drew a Chain Lightning (to go with the 2 Bolts he had in hand), then fetched and Emptied for 16. He natural-flipped, and yeah. You know how this math works. I get exactsied with him at 3.

It's always embarrassing to lose to UR Delver. Typically they just don't have a fast enough clock or enough protection plus they usually don't have mana denial. Turns out that his weird inclusion of Wasteland worked really well for him g1, then he had a very fast kill g2.

[Megadeus]

Yeah that guy playing UR Delver does have somewhat of an odd build. I guess Waste makes daze a bit better and live more into the late game. But it is a nonbo with Goblin Guide.

[Shimi]

The warning was more to just not underestimate Elves or think they're free postboard, little else. With smart play it's at least even, perhaps a bit better. Just remember to play smart like a TES pilot should ^^

It has been like a week or two since the last time I browse on mtgsource.com , so when I was playing against Elves on last weekend I got surpresed by Ruric Thar, the Unbowed coming from Natural Order from Elves, that guy don't let us storm, or even cantrip for bounce (note that Decay does not work here), I'm just warning you guys in case you didn't read the elves post like I didn't.

Also the guy was playing it MD just to beat me because I stormed him on his early legacy days.. also the T1 elves is not safe anymore, they can cabal therapy T1, replay it on T2 and then go with Teeg or NO -> Ruric. That being said I would like to face Elves all day.

[Tammit67]

Mini report: 6 round event at Redcaps corner in Philly

Round 1: Jake Taft with High tide. Solid player.

G1: He doesn't have the disruption but all the gas. I am unable to find a kill before he can go off, so I lay out artifact mana and cast 2 dark rituals so I can ad nauseum/Silence/brainstorm post Time spiral. I get a 7 without any of those 3 and I get brain freeze'd

G2: He has all the disruption but no engines. I start whittling away at the flusterstorms/forces and go diminishing returns to play around his extraction. The wheel does me no good and gives me the mono rituals hand. I'm unable to disrupt him again and he chains meditates and 3-4 high tides before I draw my deck.

Round 2: Joey Manner with UWr miracles. The person I wanted to face least.

G1: He has top but no Counterbalance. I sculpt a hand looking for one more mana to go ad nausem, but he lands blood moon. I make a few goblins off a naturally draw EtW and a bunch of 0 cost artifacts and he spends his last cards in hand to swords/force/swords to cut their number down. I draw a petal for turn, get ad nauseum and start flipping. He scoops.

G2: I keep something like U sea, IT, petal, BS, LED, Probe, Dark ritual. My probe resolves and I see from Joey red elemental blast, spell pierce and non-blue cards and draw ponder off the probe. I play the land, cast ponder and Joey fetches to REB it. He plays fetch, top, go. I untap, draw a second LED and see the line. No land for turn, cast brainstorm mainphase. He fetches down to 18 and pierces it. I double check the math and go petal, ritual, 2 LED, IT for BW, BW for tendrils for 18.

Round 3: Billy with Death and taxes. Billy mostly plays other formats thanks to PTQs and is trying to get into this legacy thing.

G1: My hand brainstorm locks me without giving me the necessary gas to beat mom + thalia by turn two.

G2: I make a quick 12 goblins on turn 2 with the possibility to cabal therapy should he go stoneforge finding batterskull.

G3: He keeps off the back of a Thalia + waste that I therapy but draws a mindbreak trap i also need to deal with. I wish for duress, take it and resume cantripping into Ad nauseum.

Round 4: Nick with UWr miracles. Seems pretty inexperienced with my deck and to a degree his also.

G1: He gets CB + top going and plays rest in peace. I get to resolve an EoT ad nausem, untap and start alternating between 0 and 1 cost spells. He lets petals through and I don't have enough lands in play to allow me to force the flip on top, but I make a lethal number of goblins. It doesn't matter as he drops helm and activates. There are like 19 minutes left on the clock.

G2: I take some cannonist beats as I abrupt decay a blood moon and eventually the ethersworn moron as he stalls on lands. I diminishing returns at 8 instead of trying for the ad naus and go off unprotected successfully.

Time ends in the round as I mulligan to five. I'm pretty sure I can beat this guy but we won't get the chance to play game 3 thanks to the round timer. My car has scrubbed out, so I concede and drop instead of drawing.

Instead of grinding the last 3 rounds and holding people up, gotta go see R.E.D. 2 and it was pretty good

[Lemnear]

It has been like a week or two since the last time I browse on mtgsource.com , so when I was playing against Elves on last weekend I got surpresed by Ruric Thar, the Unbowed coming from Natural Order from Elves, that guy don't let us storm, or even cantrip for bounce (note that Decay does not work here), I'm just warning you guys in case you didn't read the elves post like I didn't.

Also the guy was playing it MD just to beat me because I stormed him on his early legacy days.. also the T1 elves is not safe anymore, they can cabal therapy T1, replay it on T2 and then go with Teeg or NO -> Ruric. That being said I would like to face Elves all day.

Ruric scoops to Submerge, StoP, CoV an other goodies for only 6 Points of Life but some peeps in that thread overestimate him boundless while showing their flawed understanding on the TES vs Elves matchup in their poor targeting of Cabal Therapy.

Ruric CAN appear Turn 2 with a very good draw, but is more of a turn 3 NO target ... More than enough time for Silence, Duress, Therapy and others to strip any Option for the Ogre or the opponent from all lifepoints

[Davek]

Hi all,

i've been testing this deck lately, and while i feel its strenght, i have to admit that i find myself in doubt about the correct use of some cards. For example.. Past in Flames. I know it may sound ridiculous, but i still do not understand why should i take it through a Burning Wish. Wish gets exiled and i cannot cast it again with Pif so i find it a useful choice only if you already have an Infernal tutor in grave together with a consistent amount of rituals, and at the moment i've rarely faced that situation. Another thing i've seen is the inability to get Ad Nauseam though a Wish g1, which i think is huge in g2-3 when you often side out an IT, ready to be grabbed by Wish. So my noob question is: does any of you plays with a steady IT in sb? Could someone explain a noob-hidden pattern of utility for Pif that i didn't notice? Thanks again

[Tammit67]

Hi all,

i've been testing this deck lately, and while i feel its strenght, i have to admit that i find myself in doubt about the correct use of some cards. For example.. Past in Flames. I know it may sound ridiculous, but i still do not understand why should i take it through a Burning Wish. Wish gets exiled and i cannot cast it again with Pif so i find it a useful choice only if you already have an Infernal tutor in grave together with a consistent amount of rituals, and at the moment i've rarely faced that situation. Another thing i've seen is the inability to get Ad Nauseam though a Wish g1, which i think is huge in g2-3 when you often side out an IT, ready to be grabbed by Wish. So my noob question is: does any of you plays with a steady IT in sb? Could someone explain a noob-hidden pattern of utility for Pif that i didn't notice? Thanks again

It is another card like Ill Gotten gains that let's you go off in an extended battle with an attrition deck for relatively low requirements lifewise and storm wise. If you are winning consistently turn 2-3 you probably won't see much value out of it but turn 10 or whatever against the heavy discard/counter decks it is very good to be able to draw a wish and undo all their hard work. I believe it is well worth the slot even if IGG, PiF and grapeshot are all the cards I use least from the sideboard

[sconnell]

Hi all,

i've been testing this deck lately, and while i feel its strenght, i have to admit that i find myself in doubt about the correct use of some cards. For example.. Past in Flames. I know it may sound ridiculous, but i still do not understand why should i take it through a Burning Wish. Wish gets exiled and i cannot cast it again with Pif so i find it a useful choice only if you already have an Infernal tutor in grave together with a consistent amount of rituals, and at the moment i've rarely faced that situation. Another thing i've seen is the inability to get Ad Nauseam though a Wish g1, which i think is huge in g2-3 when you often side out an IT, ready to be grabbed by Wish. So my noob question is: does any of you plays with a steady IT in sb? Could someone explain a noob-hidden pattern of utility for Pif that i didn't notice? Thanks again

re: PiF, as Tammit67 says it's useful in longer games against decks with discard and countermagic. If you aren't playing against those sorts of decks much you might not be playing the sorts of games where PiF shines. IGG giving the opponent back cards is a big downside in such matchups.

re: 4 IT main instead of one board to wish for AdN. The matchups where you sideboard out IT are generally ones where you can expect the post-board games to go a bit longer, and it's realistic that you might assemble the 9 mana for BW -> IT -> AdN. Maindeck (and in some post-board games), it's more important to maximise the chance of an early Empty (needing 6 mana) or IT -> AdN (needing 7 mana.)

[Megadeus]

IGG if you are using it you are probably winning that turn. Also with Pif a lot of the time you end up burning an IT to fetch up another Rite of Flame or Dark Ritual which in turn helps not only get more rituals in the yard to fuel the Pif, but also leaves you with a tutor in the yard to flashback with Pif. Basically Pif you are setting it up and it isn't usually as natural of a kill. And despite using IGG, PiF and Grapeshot the least I would never cut them. IGG and Pif are non life dependant storm engines and I have killed many off of hitting people for 16 with Goblins before they get wrathed and then Wishing for a weak grapeshot for the kill

Edit: also Pif is sick vs Liliana decks (assuming they dont have DRS out)

[Lemnear]

Hi all,

i've been testing this deck lately, and while i feel its strenght, i have to admit that i find myself in doubt about the correct use of some cards. For example.. Past in Flames. I know it may sound ridiculous, but i still do not understand why should i take it through a Burning Wish. Wish gets exiled and i cannot cast it again with Pif so i find it a useful choice only if you already have an Infernal tutor in grave together with a consistent amount of rituals, and at the moment i've rarely faced that situation. Another thing i've seen is the inability to get Ad Nauseam though a Wish g1, which i think is huge in g2-3 when you often side out an IT, ready to be grabbed by Wish. So my noob question is: does any of you plays with a steady IT in sb? Could someone explain a noob-hidden pattern of utility for Pif that i didn't notice? Thanks again

Dunno, I mostly use PIF to showboat into some 50+ damage Grapeshots Turn 1 or 2 :)

The chorus is correct, you use PIF for attrition battles against discard-heavy matchups like BUG or JUND to miraculous recover from Thoughtseize, Hymn and Cabal Therapy.

BAWZ-players use it to chain binned Infernals into LED's into UUU into a cantrip-chain into Burning Wish into IGG for 3 LED's into UUUBBBRRR into more Cantrips into Infernal into Wish into Grapeshot the whole board and lifepoints ... yes, greatness awaits in my next HotS-Report ;D



For the IT topic: you almost newer need the Ability to Wish for Infernal Game 1 because almost none opponent is prepared to battle a horde of goblins T1/2. In game 2/3 this may change with E.Explosives, Mass-bounce and shit in addition to an overload of Counters and reaktive cards, Giving you the time to Gather more mana to Wish for Infernal which often is switched/sideboarded 1-for-1 for a Cabal Therapy to Battle through the mentioned hate. In game 1 you want the fast Access to AN which a Full Set of Infernals provide.

[monovfox]

Lemnear, when am I going to see more Heart of the Storm tourney reports? I loved those!

[paeng4983]

Things that I still recall from my July 21st tournament.

http://mtglegacy.freeforums.org/post17.html#p17

[Lemnear]

Lemnear, when am I going to see more Heart of the Storm tourney reports? I loved those!

Thenever I not only find the time to attend a tourney but also have the time to write a report of the required quality. I was more than 2 months outside of Germany for business lately, so that's the reason for the recent lack of new releases, sides playing Elves, TRS Doomsday and writing a primer for the later.

However, do not fear that I abandoned the Series :)

I may have to change the playgroup aka the gents club, depending how the thing remained/evolved during the summer months and my deficiency. Saturday is on my working schedule, making it hard to attend at the local Berlin Legacy in the ASL there our fellow SCG Writer C. Kotter is at a regular base. I'll make it happen and go there for a peek, trading and Shakehands this saturday though :)

[Zombie]

Thenever I not only find the time to attend a tourney but also have the time to write a report of the required quality. I was more than 2 months outside of Germany for business lately, so that's the reason for the recent lack of new releases, sides playing Elves, TRS Doomsday and writing a primer for the later.

However, do not fear that I abandoned the Series :)

I may have to change the playgroup aka the gents club, depending how the thing remained/evolved during the summer months and my deficiency. Saturday is on my working schedule, making it hard to attend at the local Berlin Legacy in the ASL there our fellow SCG Writer C. Kotter is at a regular base. I'll make it happen and go there for a peek, trading and Shakehands this saturday though :)

Write a Heart of the Hoof report then? :D

[Lemnear]

Write a Heart of the Hoof report then? :D

Writing about Elves isn't as insightful because most hands play pretty linear and I use a pretty dirty GB list without any crap like Llanowar Elves, Priest of Titania and such. Just 4 Birchlores, 4 NO, 2 Hoofs, 4 Cradles which I talked about in the Elves thread. I just hate the cute durdling some dudes are used to run.

I honestly see not enough value in writing HotS-Style reports for a deck which most unexpected play it is to NO for a Symbiote to stay in the Glimpse chain or the most difficult decisions are what to dig with GSZ or keeping Elves in your Hand for a topdecked Glimpse or not.

If there's a crowd for such reports I might consider writing those for the Events I play with elves

[Zombie]

And stacking Ponders properly is wildly different? Not saying TES isn't harder (though it may just be me grokking twiddly, bouncy things better than cantrip stacking), but you make it sound like Elves is Jund or something. Besides that though, many people are bad and there's much more high quality stuff written up for Storm than for Elves - let alone the modern build - and there's always the offchance that you do things in a way you find unremarkable but could be a new thing to someone else, even if that someone gets results.

[Lemnear]

And stacking Ponders properly is wildly different? Not saying TES isn't harder (though it may just be me grokking twiddly, bouncy things better than cantrip stacking), but you make it sound like Elves is Jund or something. Besides that though, many people are bad and there's much more high quality stuff written up for Storm than for Elves - let alone the modern build - and there's always the offchance that you do things in a way you find unremarkable but could be a new thing to someone else, even if that someone gets results.

I'll keep that in mind. Daniel does an amazing job in the Elves thread even if his reports are more funny than informative. Maybe it would be a challenge to find and present consense in that thread filled with imo suboptimal cardchoices like Ruric, Priest and Co.

There is a lot more need to define a deck's corpus than writing about how to play. As long as people interpret my plea to run Birchlore as a 4-off as a bow to Ruric instead to a better Glimpse combo and devastating Turn 2 Cradle activations, or they ignore the math that Hoof does more damage than Ruric can do in average, there is a lot of Basic work needed and I already showed here on TheSource, that i'm not a forbearing guy which appears being required. Daniel can T8 a dozen more Events with 2 Hoofs and people will still derp around with Ruric, Beck/Call, Priest and Regal Force as if there's something like "playstyle". I'm a tournament player; I care for efficiency.



P.S. I don't feel there's enough in-depth stuff written for storm. Most of the quoted cornerstone articles about storm are totally flat strategywise and there's nothing of quality for Burning Wish Storm aside from Bryant's Primer on TES. Most of the writing focusses on ANT and it's 2 linear ways to kill with PIF and AN but I can't remember reading anything about the decision-making regarding Wish. Hands Down, still the majority of TNT and TES crowd has problems to grasp the Full Potential of their wishboard which is my primer focus to Adress in the HotS-Reports without creating artificial scenarios which always feel awkward while reading.

[Kayradis]

There is a lot more need to define a deck's corpus than writing about how to play. As long as people interpret my plea to run Birchlore as a 4-off as a bow to Ruric instead to a better Glimpse combo and devastating Turn 2 Cradle activations, or they ignore the math that Hoof does more damage than Ruric can do in average, there is a lot of Basic work needed and I already showed here on TheSource, that i'm not a forbearing guy which appears being required.


I still disagree with that, but that's the wrong thread to discuss this!

[davelin]

I'll keep that in mind. Daniel does an amazing job in the Elves thread even if his reports are more funny than informative. Maybe it would be a challenge to find and present consense in that thread filled with imo suboptimal cardchoices like Ruric, Priest and Co.

There is a lot more need to define a deck's corpus than writing about how to play. As long as people interpret my plea to run Birchlore as a 4-off as a bow to Ruric instead to a better Glimpse combo and devastating Turn 2 Cradle activations, or they ignore the math that Hoof does more damage than Ruric can do in average, there is a lot of Basic work needed and I already showed here on TheSource, that i'm not a forbearing guy which appears being required. Daniel can T8 a dozen more Events with 2 Hoofs and people will still derp around with Ruric, Beck/Call, Priest and Regal Force as if there's something like "playstyle". I'm a tournament player; I care for efficiency.



P.S. I don't feel there's enough in-depth stuff written for storm. Most of the quoted cornerstone articles about storm are totally flat strategywise and there's nothing of quality for Burning Wish Storm aside from Bryant's Primer on TES. Most of the writing focusses on ANT and it's 2 linear ways to kill with PIF and AN but I can't remember reading anything about the decision-making regarding Wish. Hands Down, still the majority of TNT and TES crowd has problems to grasp the Full Potential of their wishboard which is my primer focus to Adress in the HotS-Reports without creating artificial scenarios which always feel awkward while reading.

Lemnear,

I'm highly looking forward to your next HotS report whenever that may be. Between yours and Bryant's detailed tournament reports, they have been immensely helpful for up and coming storm-pilots like myself!

[Lemnear]

Lemnear,

I'm highly looking forward to your next HotS report whenever that may be. Between yours and Bryant's detailed tournament reports, they have been immensely helpful for up and coming storm-pilots like myself!

I doubt my Performances are that close to Bryant's that I'd deserve to be put in the same sentence, neither do I feel the HotS series Holds value as a Standard reference for current and upcoming TES players.

I'll do my best to deliver Information of value and entertainment. My next Goal is to bring in more pics and crap so the reports are more enjoyable for a wider crowd without loosing the analytical Part and reasoning for certain decision trees which I was told being the best Part in the HotS Series. I'll try to expand that Part in the Future to deliver my thoughts and reasoning for each vital decision so the fellow readers might get a Bit of extra value out of every game Action.

I'm thankful for your support and kind words.

P.S. Even if those tournaments aren't that meaningful, Bryant might consider the contained info valuable enough to add the reports to the opening posts List of links.

[Kayradis]

I do belive you are wrong in your statement in regards to HotS.

Reading them help me grasp a better understanding of the TES/ANT matchup. I don't only see it as a ressource for current/future players of the deck, but also as a learning tool for people that might have to face the deck as it's becoming more and more popular.

[davelin]

Throwing some general questions out there after playing about 60-70 games with TES -

1) My winning % pre-SB game is much higher than post-SB (almost a difference of around 20-30 percentage points). Typical or says that I'm maybe over-sideboarding or not adjusting to my opponents' adjustments?

2) How often do you mull? I'm finding I mull about 15% or so of the time. Should I be more aggressive?

3) Some matchups like BUG control and RUG delver i'm having issues with. These decks can attack on several fronts (counters, wasteland effects, and/or discard) while throwing out a cheap threat as a clock. By the time our hands have been whittled away and I'm ready to PiF or DimRet, I'm facing lethal and still may have to throw it against their hand and hope they don't have a counter.

Thanks!

[Lemnear]

I do belive you are wrong in your statement in regards to HotS.

Reading them help me grasp a better understanding of the TES/ANT matchup. I don't only see it as a ressource for current/future players of the deck, but also as a learning tool for people that might have to face the deck as it's becoming more and more popular.

Yes, detailed reports can be useful for both sides of the table which is ok with me. Everything that demystifies storm combo is good for the community to fight negative assiciations and prejudgement straped to the decktype and, in the end, may draw more players towards it. I like tough battles and everyone realizing that Mindbreak Trap is a one-trick-pony has done a step in the right direction.


Throwing some general questions out there after playing about 60-70 games with TES -

1) My winning % pre-SB game is much higher than post-SB (almost a difference of around 20-30 percentage points). Typical or says that I'm maybe over-sideboarding or not adjusting to my opponents' adjustments?

2) How often do you mull? I'm finding I mull about 15% or so of the time. Should I be more aggressive?

3) Some matchups like BUG control and RUG delver i'm having issues with. These decks can attack on several fronts (counters, wasteland effects, and/or discard) while throwing out a cheap threat as a clock. By the time our hands have been whittled away and I'm ready to PiF or DimRet, I'm facing lethal and still may have to throw it against their hand and hope they don't have a counter.

Thanks!

1) that's the goal: winning game 1 and fight through hate game 2/3. 30% less win% is too much regardless. Some matchups are attrition battles in game 2/3. Use Bryant's SB Guide link in the OP for hints against current contenders.

2) i mull rarely. Mull hands without initial manasources but mostly keep the rest and work yourself to victory with cantrips and Wish->Therapy. Being greedy with mulligans into a miraculous 6 or 5 looses more games than actual mistakes in playing it. Only exception from the named are prison decks which Lock you out after 2 turns. Here a mulligan into 8 goblins is often enough and preferable over "solid" hands with cantrips.

3) for BUG and RUG there should be more than enough advice in the HotS gallery. Grinding out cardadvantage is king. Sandbag your lands if possible. RUG is a dog to EtW. BUG tempo scoops to EtW, BUG control is so damn Slow that you just have to remove 1 spell of defense and they are wide open. Hiding wishes and infernal ontop of your lib while playing out Artifact mana is a general Way to fight discard.

[Bryant Cook]

P.S. Even if those tournaments aren't that meaningful, Bryant might consider the contained info valuable enough to add the reports to the opening posts List of links.


There's a current standard, they have to be high placing finishes. Otherwise, I have to allow everyone else's 56th place in an event. I just wouldn't be fair to people with lesser reports. I Hope you understand. Although, if you or anyone else has a high placing report that isn't in the opening post, this goes for feature matches, articles, links, etc. feel free to message me a link and I'll review before adding.

Thanks.

[Mindlash]

There's a current standard, they have to be high placing finishes. Otherwise, I have to allow everyone else's 56th place in an event. I just wouldn't be fair to people with lesser reports. I Hope you understand. Although, if you or anyone else has a high placing report that isn't in the opening post, this goes for feature matches, articles, links, etc. feel free to message me a link and I'll review before adding.

Thanks.

If I remember correctly he finished 1st in all of them :-)

[Lemnear]

If I remember correctly he finished 1st in all of them :-)

That's not the point. As expected Bryant collects Top performance reports of events with several hundred players. Battling through an event of about 34 players isn't THAT impressive even if you face RUG, BUG and S&T variants all day. I'm completely fine with the existing standard Bryant choose.

P.S. Bryant, did you ever had 5 minutes to waste and dip a nose in the mentioned reports? They are all linked in my sig and I would really appreciate some suggestions. Thx, pal

[Mindlash]

That's not the point. As expected Bryant collects Top performance reports of events with several hundred players. Battling through an event of about 34 players isn't THAT impressive even if you face RUG, BUG and S&T variants all day. I'm completely fine with the existing standard Bryant choose.

P.S. Bryant, did you ever had 5 minutes to waste and dip a nose in the mentioned reports? They are all linked in my sig and I would really appreciate some suggestions. Thx, pal

Oh ok I must have misread it. Thought it was about high finishes. Not about tournament size.

Nevertheless I think there is lots of valuable information in your HotS reports. You told us your thoughts about hands, some of your descision trees and your boarding against certain matchups. I miss those things in most of the reports I get to read...most of them are more like: G1 I AN into gg T1 - after boarding I empty for lethal goblins on T2.

I enjoyed reading them so thanks for your effords :)

I will probably try TES myself in the near future...but I think it will be with friends and some BBQ first ;)
Feel not confident enough with the deck right now for longer tournaments.
I have to admit ANT was a bit easier to get into.

Greetings Chris

[Lemnear]

Oh ok I must have misread it. Thought it was about high finishes. Not about tournament size.

Nevertheless I think there is lots of valuable information in your HotS reports. You told us your thoughts about hands, some of your descision trees and your boarding against certain matchups. I miss those things in most of the reports I get to read...most of them are more like: G1 I AN into gg T1 - after boarding I empty for lethal goblins on T2.

I enjoyed reading them so thanks for your effords :)

I will probably try TES myself in the near future...but I think it will be with friends and some BBQ first ;)
Feel not confident enough with the deck right now for longer tournaments.
I have to admit ANT was a bit easier to get into.

Greetings Chris

Dunno, it's possible that I mistook Bryant here about the "high place finishes". I may bore him via PM during the next days unless he reads the thread in the meantime ;)

Thx for enjoying. If you have any issues or questions just PM me or if the questions are more of generalistic, type them in here. If you're visiting Lille in France or Berlin lemme know ;)


P.S.: make sure to have the BBQ first. Grapeshooting in the High 40's does not leave the "friends" thing unharmed nor does bringing TES to a Kitchentable Event ;D

[Bryant Cook]

Dunno, it's possible that I mistook Bryant here about the "high place finishes". I may bore him via PM during the next days unless he reads the thread in the meantime ;)

Thx for enjoying. If you have any issues or questions just PM me or if the questions are more of generalistic, type them in here. If you're visiting Lille in France or Berlin lemme know ;)


P.S.: make sure to have the BBQ first. Grapeshooting in the High 40's does not leave the "friends" thing unharmed nor does bringing TES to a Kitchentable Event ;D

It's not right to include events with so few players, many areas have local events the size of the attendance of these reports. I think Lemnear is doing a decent job at providing content while I've been incredibly busy over the last few months. I'm in the middle of switching jobs, so depending on my workload at this new place I may be posting more frequently. However, I wouldn't get your hopes up. I think his reports are fine where they are at the moment.

To be honest, there just isn't anything to say about TES right now. The list is ideal in my opinion until something new comes out that causes the deck to change, may it be something that requires answering or a new card for the deck. But as of right now, there's no real reason for me to participate in these discussions. I've written countless articles and reports explaining how to pilot the deck. Continuing to explain to new players has become sort of redundant.

[Mindlash]

Dunno, it's possible that I mistook Bryant here about the "high place finishes". I may bore him via PM during the next days unless he reads the thread in the meantime ;)

Thx for enjoying. If you have any issues or questions just PM me or if the questions are more of generalistic, type them in here. If you're visiting Lille in France or Berlin lemme know ;)


P.S.: make sure to have the BBQ first. Grapeshooting in the High 40's does not leave the "friends" thing unharmed nor does bringing TES to a Kitchentable Event ;D

Thanks for your offer. I will PM you if there are any questions, not already answered in this thread or HotS :-)

Next time I am in France will be BoM in Paris. Perhaps you will be there too?
Berlin might be a thing for the Magiccardmarket tournament. If I find some peeps for the trip I will let you know.

Our Kitchentable is a horrible place full of Dredge, Belcher, ANT, Jund and Doomsday. TES will perfectly fit in there ;) Will be quite the turbo goldfish BBQ i guess.

Some blue guys would be nice to play through counterspells though...

Greetings Chris

[Tammit67]

Ended the Legacy portion of SCG Invitational at 6-2. Losses were to the T.E.S. mirror and to Chris anderson on elves (eternal shame). Met a few Sourcers too :) Hope to see more for the Legacy portion.

[thefringthing]

Hey, don't feel bad. Managing to lose to Elves with TES is quite the feat!

[davelin]

Found myself in the following situation while playing online and wanted to see what line others would take.

Situation:
Playing against mono-red painter pre-SB game one. Opponent has 2 tapped mountains, 2 untapped Tombs, 2 Painter's Servant and a Figure of Destiny with one counter on it. He is at 18 life and has one unknown card in hand.

We have three lands (1 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic and 1 Gemstone Mine with three counters) in play, 3 LEDs in hand and just drew Burning Wish. Our GY consists of Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, 2 Probes and 1 Ponder.

Scenario:
With a painter in play and plenty of mana, our opponent can draw a grindstone and immediately win the game. We have plenty of mana and four storm in hand. So what would you fetch with Burning Wish and how would you appropriately break your LEDs in response?

1) Past in Flames hoping to use cantrips in graveyard to find another business spell?
2) Diminishing Returns relying and what we draw with new 7?
3) Empty the Warrens and hope opponent doesn't topdeck grindstone?

[Megadeus]

Found myself in the following situation while playing online and wanted to see what line others would take.

Situation:
Playing against mono-red painter pre-SB game one. Opponent has 2 tapped mountains, 2 untapped Tombs, 2 Painter's Servant and a Figure of Destiny with one counter on it. He is at 18 life and has one unknown card in hand.

We have three lands (1 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic and 1 Gemstone Mine with three counters) in play, 3 LEDs in hand and just drew Burning Wish. Our GY consists of Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, 2 Probes and 1 Ponder.

Scenario:
With a painter in play and plenty of mana, our opponent can draw a grindstone and immediately win the game. If have plenty of mana and four storm in hand. So what would you fetch with Burning Wish and how would you appropriately break your LEDs in response?

1) Past in Flames hoping to use cantrips in graveyard to find another business spell?
2) Diminishing Returns relying and what we draw with new 7?
3) Empty the Warrens and hope opponent doesn't topdeck grindstone?Id go with PiF. Not a sure thing, but it will probably get there. Im not sure of the odds, but I can dig it. (get it?) Im not a huge fan of the DReturns Roulette.

[maritlage]

Found myself in the following situation while playing online and wanted to see what line others would take.

Situation:
Playing against mono-red painter pre-SB game one. Opponent has 2 tapped mountains, 2 untapped Tombs, 2 Painter's Servant and a Figure of Destiny with one counter on it. He is at 18 life and has one unknown card in hand.

We have three lands (1 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic and 1 Gemstone Mine with three counters) in play, 3 LEbDs in hand and just drew Burning Wish. Our GY consists of Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, 2 Probes and 1 Ponder.

Scenario:
With a painter in play and plenty of mana, our opponent can draw a grindstone and immediately win the game. We have plenty of mana and four storm in hand. So what would you fetch with Burning Wish and how would you appropriately break your LEDs in response?

1) Past in Flames hoping to use cantrips in graveyard to find another business spell?
2) Diminishing Returns relying and what we draw with new 7?
3) Empty the Warrens and hope opponent doesn't topdeck grindstone?

DReturns all day tap volc, sea, play BW crack LED 1,2 & 3 for Black Blue Red. Grab DReturns paying 2 Blue a Black and a Red leaving 1 Blue 2 Black and 2 Red in pool. Shuffling in 3 LED 2 Probe 1 Ponder 1 Dark Ritual 1 Cabal Therapy and 1 Brainstorm or decks total # of cards left is 56 meaning that we have 8 rituals 12 cantrips 9 lands 7 disruption 7 tutors 11 artifact mana 1 combo piece and 1 win con. So with that all in effect looking at the win % off of DReturns from the OP is 70% if not more. Were as with PiF your looking at maybe a total of 4 cantrips to get to a win condition and be able to win. I also DReturns is away to just naturally time walk your opponent depending on what color they have named for painter.

[paeng4983]

I'll go PiF and pray hard for me to dig out a wincon.
DR is not feasible because this decks have main board REBs and Force of Wills.

[Niggurath]

I'll go PiF and pray hard for me to dig out a wincon.
DR is not feasible because this decks have main board REBs and Force of Wills.

But with no colored mana and only 1 card at hand (FOW couldn't be casted), DR was the best way, imo.

[Lemnear]

Dunno why anyone is advocating for DR here. There is more than enough stormcount in the Grave and enough cantrips to see the next 9 cards in your Library.

Don't play the DR Roulette into FoW or a Brick. PIF is an almost 86% kill here.

Burning Wish off Volcanic and Underground Sea, pop 3 LED's for UUURRRBBB, Grab PIF and cast it with UUURB (+Gemstone Mine) remaining, Probe (Life), Probe (Life), DR, Ponder and then see if you found the Wish/Infernal. Otherwise shuffle, draw and cast Brainstorm.

You have 4 cantrips with PIF to find a Wish or Infernal (+Brainstorm away the bricking cards) but a total random number of Tutors/Cantrips with DR but also the Problem of bringing back FoW into the mix which requires you to cast Silence or a Duress if you go or DR. There is still the possibility left that you just draw mana and a Single cantrip off DR.

[Kayradis]

Ended the Legacy portion of SCG Invitational at 6-2. Losses were to the T.E.S. mirror and to Chris anderson on elves (eternal shame). Met a few Sourcers too :) Hope to see more for the Legacy portion.

Chris is one effin' master with Elves tho. No shame in that!

[Megadeus]

But with no colored mana and only 1 card at hand (FOW couldn't be casted), DR was the best way, imo.

But if you DR then you give them a new hand in which they can draw a force. And if you give them a new hand you are almost for sure losing next turn.

[Niggurath]

But if you DR then you give them a new hand in which they can draw a force. And if you give them a new hand you are almost for sure losing next turn.

True, my bad. I don't play this deck yet (but wish I), so that was a bad reasoning.

[Royce Walter]

Lost in the top8 of scg Somerset to ANT. Sadface. The list felt very good overall, I really like boarding out all the hand disruption against show and tell decks since they are on leyline. Of course, if they know this, it gets worse, but Xantid Swarm is awesome regardless of whether they have leyline or not.

[Megadeus]

Lost in the top8 of scg Somerset to ANT. Sadface. The list felt very good overall, I really like boarding out all the hand disruption against show and tell decks since they are on leyline. Of course, if they know this, it gets worse, but Xantid Swarm is awesome regardless of whether they have leyline or not.

Saw your game there. Super awkward. Nice name on those lEDs. To bad he ripped can trips like a boss. The ANT MU I never really liked that much.

[Royce Walter]

I like the matchup, but it is super awkward that I lost game 1 because I drew all 4 silences instead of mana. Game 2 I'm not sure there's much I could have done, I'll have to watch it when I get a chance.

[davelin]

Found myself in the following situation while playing online and wanted to see what line others would take.

Situation:
Playing against mono-red painter pre-SB game one. Opponent has 2 tapped mountains, 2 untapped Tombs, 2 Painter's Servant and a Figure of Destiny with one counter on it. He is at 18 life and has one unknown card in hand.

We have three lands (1 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic and 1 Gemstone Mine with three counters) in play, 3 LEDs in hand and just drew Burning Wish. Our GY consists of Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, 2 Probes and 1 Ponder.

Scenario:
With a painter in play and plenty of mana, our opponent can draw a grindstone and immediately win the game. We have plenty of mana and four storm in hand. So what would you fetch with Burning Wish and how would you appropriately break your LEDs in response?

1) Past in Flames hoping to use cantrips in graveyard to find another business spell?
2) Diminishing Returns relying and what we draw with new 7?
3) Empty the Warrens and hope opponent doesn't topdeck grindstone?

Thanks to all who responded. After the matter I did some quick calculations. With PiF, there was about a 80% chance of finding a business spell (i.e. Tutor or Wish) versus just 65% with a random draw of 7 new cards. This doesn't consider that any cantrips drawn then have a chance of finding a business spell but that probably wouldn't make up the difference AND the fact you're giving the opponent a brand new hand AND you probably won't be able to use IT without being hellbent.

So what did I do here? Of course in the heat of the moment I ended up casting DimRet and saccing all three LEDS. My new hand was Probe x2, land x2, Brainstorm and LED x2! I probed once to find my opponent had a pyroblast and a Simian Spirit Guide to use it...doh! However the Probe gifted me a Duress which was immediately used to get rid of the blast (my opponent wisely didn't cast it in response). The next probe gave me a RoF, then Brainstorm gave me RoF, a blank and an Infernal Tutor! A more than sufficient Tendrils followed soon. Lucksacking for the win!

[davelin]

Lost in the top8 of scg Somerset to ANT. Sadface. The list felt very good overall, I really like boarding out all the hand disruption against show and tell decks since they are on leyline. Of course, if they know this, it gets worse, but Xantid Swarm is awesome regardless of whether they have leyline or not.

Congrats on the finish! Do you recall what other matchups you faced during the swiss rounds and how you fared there?

[maritlage]

Thanks to all who responded. After the matter I did some quick calculations. With PiF, there was about a 80% chance of finding a business spell (i.e. Tutor or Wish) versus just 65% with a random draw of 7 new cards. This doesn't consider that any cantrips drawn then have a chance of finding a business spell but that probably wouldn't make up the difference AND the fact you're giving the opponent a brand new hand AND you probably won't be able to use IT without being hellbent.

So what did I do here? Of course in the heat of the moment I ended up casting DimRet and saccing all three LEDS. My new hand was Probe x2, land x2, Brainstorm and LED x2! I probed once to find my opponent had a pyroblast and a Simian Spirit Guide to use it...doh! However the Probe gifted me a Duress which was immediately used to get rid of the blast (my opponent wisely didn't cast it in response). The next probe gave me a RoF, then Brainstorm gave me RoF, a blank and an Infernal Tutor! A more than sufficient Tendrils followed soon. Lucksacking for the win!

That is what people do not seem to understand is if you use DR for a hail mary win your going to wiff more then anything. With the board state you described PiF may get you there but may leave you completely open for several turns especially if your opponent who seems to be playing Imperial Recruiter Painter (ie the red version) that most likely does not have FoW to counter anything. Meaning that all they have to interact with you is pyroblast but in going for PiF if you brick which can and may happen especially since now you only have one LED left in deck and if you wiff on PiF you are more then likely either dead the next turn or locked out of the game do to a magus of the moon that makes you find your petals and one remaining LED to win. So your DR while not the clear nuts like we all wish it could be gave you more outs to anything then PiF would also DR is a million times better then people actually give it credit for.

[Royce Walter]

Congrats on the finish! Do you recall what other matchups you faced during the swiss rounds and how you fared there?


R1 2-0 Elves. If he'd had Ruric Thar in his deck he could have locked me out on turn 2 in game 2, but he did not. He also could have Zenithed or Natural Ordered for Teeg, but instead he tried to kill me, fizzled, and I kill him on my turn 2 with PiF.
R2 2-0 Affinity. He played 7 cards turn 1 on the play game 1. I played more on my turn 1.
R3 2-1 Nick, 75 card mirror. Nick rode in my car to the event and decided to rejoin Team Storm with myself and Bryant for the weekend. This match was really interesting and if I have time after work I'll explain in detail.
R4 2-0 Goblins. He mulliganned a lot and didn't have any disruption.
R5 2-0 Zoo? with Wasteland, KotR, Countryside Crusher, Wild Nacatl, Noble Hierarch, GSZ. The only disruption he had was Teeg in G2, and I had an Abrupt Decay, won with Ad Nauseam.
R6 2-0 RUG Delver. I knew what he was playing, so I keep Probe, Petal, LED, Dark Ritual, 2 Infernal Tutor, Chrome Mox. Probe him, see Force, Goyf, Stifle, Ponder, lands, draw Rite of Flame from Probe. Play Chrome Mox, imprint Tutor to not get it Stifled, pass. He ponders, shuffles, passes. I draw Silence, play Petal, Silence, it resolves, Dark Ritual off Chrome Mox, LED, Infernal, crack LED for red, Empty for 12 goblins, he concedes. G2 he doesn't pressure me enough and on turn 4 or 5 when I go off I cast Petal, Silence, he Pierces, I cast Dark Ritual in response, pay, he forces the silence. I cast Dark Ritual, LED, LED, Burning Wish for Tendrils with Infernal as my only card left in hand, cast Tendrils. He has a stifle. I pass, he attacks, I untap, Infernal + crack both LEDs for Burning Wish for PiF, flash back rituals, flash back Tendrils.
R7 1-2 Gerard on UWR Delver. G1 I Ad Nauseam on turn 2 when he has 1 unknown in his hand, I stop at 5 to play around Bolt, attempt to Tendrils him. The unknown card is stifle. Frown. Terrible oversight on my part. G2 I don't remember anything except blind Therapy hitting 2 stifles the turn I Tendrils him. G3 he has a Clique, I'm at 6 life, he's at 16, I go to Empty for 16, and he stifles. Oh well.
R8 2-0 Lloyd on Jund. Between round 3 and this round I've now played both of the people that I teamed with to top4 the team sealed in Richmond last week. Fun. Both games I upkeep Silence him several times and eventually Diminishing Returns. G2 I almost managed to throw away because I thought I had an additional Lotus Petal in my Ad Nauseam pile when I stopped at 2 life, but managed to Brainstorm my way out of it. Definitely not solid play there.
R9 2-0 OmniTell. G1 I wish for Therapy twice, he forces the Therapy twice, and doesn't have a third Force for Infernal Tutor-> Ad Nauseam. G2 my hand is 2 Xantid Swarm, 3 Ponder, Brainstorm, City, so I'm ecstatic when he mulls to 6 and plays double Leyline on the play. Eventually Ad Nauseam, Chain of Vapor his Leylines, Tendrils.
R10 draw with Huey Jensen.
Top8 0-2 to ANT, covered pretty well by StarCity. I should have shuffled off the last Ponder game 1. I was also really upset that my breakers tanked in the last round, putting me on the draw in this matchup, but there's not much that can be done there.

[davelin]

That is what people do not seem to understand is if you use DR for a hail mary win your going to wiff more then anything. With the board state you described PiF may get you there but may leave you completely open for several turns especially if your opponent who seems to be playing Imperial Recruiter Painter (ie the red version) that most likely does not have FoW to counter anything. Meaning that all they have to interact with you is pyroblast but in going for PiF if you brick which can and may happen especially since now you only have one LED left in deck and if you wiff on PiF you are more then likely either dead the next turn or locked out of the game do to a magus of the moon that makes you find your petals and one remaining LED to win. So your DR while not the clear nuts like we all wish it could be gave you more outs to anything then PiF would also DR is a million times better then people actually give it credit for.

Not sure I follow. Whiffing on PiF gives you at least four cards to work with while our opponent is in topdeck mode. Whiffing on DimRet gives him seven new cards and if we whiff, we have a good chance of losing after untapping.

[Tammit67]

I like the matchup, but it is super awkward that I lost game 1 because I drew all 4 silences instead of mana. Game 2 I'm not sure there's much I could have done, I'll have to watch it when I get a chance.

Sat next to you round 2. Does everyone from Upstate New York have a pimped out version of T.E.S. or something?

[Lemnear]

Not sure I follow. Whiffing on PiF gives you at least four cards to work with while our opponent is in topdeck mode. Whiffing on DimRet gives him seven new cards and if we whiff, we have a good chance of losing after untapping.

That's all to say

PIF gives you 4 cards, DR 7
PIF gives your opponent 0, DR 7

PIF is a ~86% kill, DR complete random %. It doesn't matter how good the random Returns COULD be if the PIF is an almost guaranteed win.

P.S.: Sorted my notes, thoughts, pictures and begun to write HotS Vol. 5 ... an annoying competition between 5+ RUG, 4+ BUG Control, 2 Elves and at least 3 Deathblades in a Field of 28 players. Stay tuned (have to write something for the Elves thread too)

[Tammit67]

Chris is one effin' master with Elves tho. No shame in that!

He didn't have to do anything special, I delayed a brainstorm a turn and whiffed anyway with all the mana in the world and then got savagely discarded into a T4 craterhoof. With better mulliganing and/or luck it would have ended in my favor. I should not be losing that matchup regardless of who that is across from me

[maritlage]

That's all to say

PIF gives you 4 cards, DR 7
PIF gives your opponent 0, DR 7

PIF is a ~86% kill, DR complete random %. It doesn't matter how good the random Returns COULD be if the PIF is an almost guaranteed win.

P.S.: Sorted my notes, thoughts, pictures and begun to write HotS Vol. 5 ... an annoying competition between 5+ RUG, 4+ BUG Control, 2 Elves and at least 3 Deathblades in a Field of 28 players. Stay tuned (have to write something for the Elves thread too)

Yes i will submit that giving your opponent a chance to interact with you with just one unknown in hand and no blue or red manna open is ideal, but with being able to see a total of up to 9 cards with cantrips in GY after PiF u have U/R/B floating meaning that after flashing back Dark Ritual you have BBB/R/U in your yard and only 1 LED left in deck so u would need to hit a land a cantrip, of which you only have 8 left, or BW because if you do not hit a LED or a playable spells you can not go hellbent for IF to fetch BW and you wll need all thhe mana to cast BW and ToA for the win very risky situation especially if you are playing Imperial Painter or another painter deck especially if this is the board state. They have 2 cards in their deck that either out right win them the game or wreck any chance of use winning for a substantial amount of time. So DR is your big out to winning this match all the way in one turn not PiF.

P.S.
Check the OP for win % after DR with the 3 LED's crack for B/U/R and extrapolate from there what the win percentage would be.

[Lemnear]

Yes i will submit that giving your opponent a chance to interact with you with just one unknown in hand and no blue or red manna open is ideal, but with being able to see a total of up to 9 cards with cantrips in GY after PiF u have U/R/B floating meaning that after flashing back Dark Ritual you have BBB/R/U in your yard and only 1 LED left in deck so u would need to hit a land a cantrip, of which you only have 8 left, or BW because if you do not hit a LED or a playable spells you can not go hellbent for IF to fetch BW and you wll need all thhe mana to cast BW and ToA for the win very risky situation especially if you are playing Imperial Painter or another painter deck especially if this is the board state. They have 2 cards in their deck that either out right win them the game or wreck any chance of use winning for a substantial amount of time. So DR is your big out to winning this match all the way in one turn not PiF.

P.S.
Check the OP for win % after DR with the 3 LED's crack for B/U/R and extrapolate from there what the win percentage would be.

Please what? He had 3 untapped lands, 3 LED's and a Wish so after the Wish you have still a recommended UUURB left, an untapped Gemstone and a Dark Ritual to cast. Resulting in 8 mana + 2 free Probe-draws to find infernal or Wish for an immediate kill. If you have to Ponder and Brainstorm you have to either replace the invested mana with another Ritual/LED if you can only find infernal or still Wish for a lethal Tendrils in any state.

DR may let you continue with a Single cantrip (especially with your suggested mana floating) which may face a REB.

[maritlage]

Please what? He had 3 untapped lands, 3 LED's and a Wish so after the Wish you have still a recommended UUURB left, an untapped Gemstone and a Dark Ritual to cast. Resulting in 8 mana + 2 free Probe-draws to find infernal or Wish for an immediate kill. If you have to Ponder and Brainstorm you have to either replace the invested mana with another Ritual/LED if you can only find infernal or still Wish for a lethal Tendrils in any state.

DR may let you continue with a Single cantrip (especially with your suggested mana floating) which may face a REB.

And with 7 disruption spells 4 of which they must counter or just sit there and watch the ToA roll through. DR is a much better engine then PiF. PiF is great only if you can use almost everything in your GY not just trying to cantrip for what you need. Having one untapped gold land and a B/R/UUU floating to cantrip 4 times seeing maybe a total of 9 cards hopefully not hitting any of your 3 fetches left in the deck or your last sea or an IF and aiming for one of 3 BW's left in deck to hopefully be able to play ToA for the win. Read the OP for this thread DR cast with 4 spells, DR being the 4th, which is not the case DR is our 5th, opponent is at 20 life or opponent is at 18, we would have 1 BW exiled and would have U/BB/RR left in pool or chance of winning is far higher then what is quoted.

P.S. proxy up mono red IP and set this situation up and DR X# of times and do the same for PiF and you see DR is way better.

[Megadeus]

Im fine with PiF. DR and bricking (which happens way too often) means probably GG for you whereas PiF isn't necessarily GG. With PiF at least if you see that you arent going to get there you can just attempt to sculpt something of a hand while your opponent is still needing a way to kill you

[Lemnear]

And with 7 disruption spells 4 of which they must counter or just sit there and watch the ToA roll through. DR is a much better engine then PiF. PiF is great only if you can use almost everything in your GY not just trying to cantrip for what you need. Having one untapped gold land and a B/R/UUU floating to cantrip 4 times seeing maybe a total of 9 cards hopefully not hitting any of your 3 fetches left in the deck or your last sea or an IF and aiming for one of 3 BW's left in deck to hopefully be able to play ToA for the win. Read the OP for this thread DR cast with 4 spells, DR being the 4th, which is not the case DR is our 5th, opponent is at 20 life or opponent is at 18, we would have 1 BW exiled and would have U/BB/RR left in pool or chance of winning is far higher then what is quoted.

P.S. proxy up mono red IP and set this situation up and DR X# of times and do the same for PiF and you see DR is way better.

There is no need to throw away a 80%+ Chance of winning for a complete random DR especially with PIF giving you a whooping 4 cantrips.

What's your obsession with the OP example? DR remains a lottery, no matter what and is unnecessary

[Tammit67]

Please what? He had 3 untapped lands, 3 LED's and a Wish so after the Wish you have still a recommended UUURB left, an untapped Gemstone and a Dark Ritual to cast. Resulting in 8 mana + 2 free Probe-draws to find infernal or Wish for an immediate kill. If you have to Ponder and Brainstorm you have to either replace the invested mana with another Ritual/LED if you can only find infernal or still Wish for a lethal Tendrils in any state.

DR may let you continue with a Single cantrip (especially with your suggested mana floating) which may face a REB.

Here at my computer I'd PiF but I've been known in tournaments to go Dim Ret. Both are fine and have high chances to win, just Dim Ret here has the highest chance of giving the game to your opponent by either giving them disruption for which you can't answer or the win following an unlikely fizzle. I think that's the biggest concern: giving your opponent more of a chance to interact

[maritlage]

Then for all its worth I guess I am just a degenerate gambler then but i feel the play is DR. I find PiF with only 4 cantrips and no tutors is the bigger risk then DR.

[Bryant Cook]

Royce Walter (Good friend of mine) top 8'd the largest Legacy open ever yesterday and you guys aren't talking about it? God damn shame.

[Koby]

Royce Walter (Good friend of mine) top 8'd the largest Legacy open ever yesterday and you guys aren't talking about it? God damn shame.

*pats on head* Good boy! You did well! You Top 8 a Starcity Event!

I was sad to see Royce couldn't convert 4 Silence cast into Victory in G1 of Top 8; so... there's that.

[Bryant Cook]

*pats on head* Good boy! You did well! You Top 8 a Starcity Event!

I was sad to see Royce couldn't convert 4 Silence cast into Victory in G1 of Top 8; so... there's that.

I couldn't stick around to watch the top 8. I don't have any idea how the match went, I heard Royce drew pretty poorly.

[davelin]

Royce Walter (Good friend of mine) top 8'd the largest Legacy open ever yesterday and you guys aren't talking about it? God damn shame.

Talked a little bit on a page or two page back, asked and received a breakdown of what Royce faced in the Swiss rounds and how he fared.

[maritlage]

Royce Walter (Good friend of mine) top 8'd the largest Legacy open ever yesterday and you guys aren't talking about it? God damn shame.

Actually I was avidly watching you or Royce play in the final 3 or 4 rounds. His round against Gerard was insane and his play against ANT in the finals was very tight just the variance of nature was not putting good draws on top deck and all on his opponents deck. Otherwise Royce did amazing at the SCG Legacy Open and I was hoping to see him take down the whole thing down and beat U/W/R Delver in the rematch from round 7 or 8.

[jandax]

Then for all its worth I guess I am just a degenerate gambler then but i feel the play is DR. I find PiF with only 4 cantrips and no tutors is the bigger risk then DR.

Four cantrips? Ponder lets you see four cards, Brainstorm three and Probe one. Don't recall which cantrips were in your yard but unless all four were Probes you would have seen more cards than the 7 off a DR...

[Lemnear]

Four cantrips? Ponder lets you see four cards, Brainstorm three and Probe one. Don't recall which cantrips were in your yard but unless all four were Probes you would have seen more cards than the 7 off a DR...

That one isn't quite fair because you can still use the cantrips drawn with DR. My issue is that you simply don't HAVE to gamble for a DR Hand which privides enough Black and Blue mana at the same time to find the kill aside from a thousands of possible combinations which just leave you dead in the water like a a hand with multiple Tutors, Cantrips and lands or a Brunch of Rituals but only a single Brainstorm.

I thought that seeing 9 cards guaranteed with a PIF loop should be more than enough to find one of 4 Infernals, 3 Wishes or an EtW (not counting finding additional cantrips off Ponder/Brainstorm.

[jandax]

Yeah that's where I was trying to get at too. Since nothing is 100%, PiF would have been the best chance at a win given 3 LEDs and three/four cantrips in the yard. But with DR you aren't guaranteed to draw any cantrips, and you're refilling their hand in the process. A self proclaimed "gambling man" should have seen them odds :tongue:

[phazonmutant]

I 2-2d the Legacy portion of Day 1 in the invitational (losing to BUG Agent and the mirror). Gambled on DimRet instead of going for guaranteed 14 Goblins against Agent and he showed me afterwards he boarded out Pulse. Yup, people still have no idea to play against TES. To be fair, I am also clearly an idiot because I lost against Agent and Tammit67's mull to 5. Matt played very tight throughout the match.

More importantly though, I bought 4 German LEDs. I'll make a post on the Pimp Thread soon :cool:

[Tammit67]

Tammit67's mull to 5. Matt played very tight throughout the match.Whatever helps you sleep at night :p


More importantly though, I bought 4 German LEDs. I'll make a post on the Pimp Thread soon :cool:

They look really good. I'm pretty sure I'm the last TES player in America without a pimped out version. Feels bad

[Lemnear]

More importantly though, I bought 4 German LEDs. I'll make a post on the Pimp Thread soon :cool:

I beg to differ ... ;)

http://imageshack.us/a/img268/3976/115nn.jpg

If you ever see those, come over and say "hi" :D

[Admiral_Arzar]

Whatever helps you sleep at night :p

They look really good. I'm pretty sure I'm the last TES player in America without a pimped out version. Feels bad

Nope, my version is horribly un-pimp. Since my storm staples are some of the first Legacy cards I ever picked up they are beat to shit from overuse (seriously, LEDs, Wishes, Tutors, LPs are all in the 'HP' category). Not to mention the white-bordered Cities of Brass and other offenses against good taste (like all but a few cards being English still).

[phazonmutant]

Whatever helps you sleep at night :p

They look really good. I'm pretty sure I'm the last TES player in America without a pimped out version. Feels bad


I was complimenting your playskill and disparaging my own. Sorry if that was unclear.

Thanks! Yeah, you need to get onboard, those Chronicles City of Brass were so ugly I had to lose as quickly as possible to get them out of sight! :tongue:


I beg to differ ... ;)

Those are sweet, but they're not likely to be allowed in Star City tournaments. The Head Judges here are strict on alters - following policy, but I think the policy is dumb.

I'll definitely say hi if I ever see you...but not sure when that would be!


Link to pimp: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=740736&viewfull=1#post740736

[Lemnear]

@alters: as long as all characteristics like Name, Type, manacost and textbox is readable I never had issues with alters in Europe.

@meet & greet: Planning to head to the next BoM in Paris this year. Maybe I'm able to Shake a few hands :D

[phazonmutant]

Royce Walter (Good friend of mine) top 8'd the largest Legacy open ever yesterday and you guys aren't talking about it? God damn shame.

Oh! Missed this. Royce definitely deserves a big congrats! It was great to meet him at Somerset, he's a good guy. Royce, do you think you'll be posting a tournament report?

[Lemnear]

Oh! Missed this. Royce definitely deserves a big congrats! It was great to meet him at Somerset, he's a good guy. Royce, do you think you'll be posting a tournament report?

Royce already did: a Single Page back, dood :)


Royce Walter (Good friend of mine) top 8'd the largest Legacy open ever yesterday and you guys aren't talking about it? God damn shame.

Didn't you recently mention that "there just isn't anything to say about TES right now"? Royce sure did an amazing job among the other storm Pilot in the T8 and I congratz both, but given he used the stock list there's near nothing to talk about :/

[Tammit67]

Didn't you recently mention that "there just isn't anything to say about TES right now"? Royce sure did an amazing job among the other storm Pilot in the T8 and I congratz both, but given he used the stock list there's near nothing to talk about :/

One thing there is to talk about is the boarding plans against Elves. Game 2 against Anderson at the invitational I absolutely wanted Silence over the anti-hate in my hand. i wish I had someone proficient at elves around me to test against.

After talking to Anderson briefly afterwards I asked if he's ever seen silence used against him post board to which he replied "No, I'm usually just used to making a dork turn one then dying before I untap" which sounds about right to me. Certainly a silence walk until turn 3 will win storm the game a majority of the time.

How often will that happen? Well you have to have double silence (on turn 1 and turn 2) then the kill on turn three. This line is more susceptible to being on the draw as turn 1 discard can get through making me think that if it is in fact worthwhile it is better on the play than the draw perhaps.

Honestly I don't even think hatebears out of elves is that big of a deal as teeg generally slows down their ability to Hoof us and tutor for creatures and we can easily find chain/decay under their lessened pressure. It's the hands of turn 1 discard into turn 3 hoof for lethal or near lethal where the bounce/decay doesn't do so much.

I'm going to spend some games tonight testing silence vs traditional boarding, noting whether or not things are more effective on the play. I'm inclination is that silence is useful on their turn 2 especially if they are on the draw but maybe not otherwise.

[sconnell]

Gambled on DimRet instead of going for guaranteed 14 Goblins against Agent and he showed me afterwards he boarded out Pulse. Yup, people still have no idea to play against TES..

One of the things I like about TES is it forces many opponents into something of a catch-22. If they board out creature removal, they're vulnerable to Empty. If they keep it in, they have a dead card against Tendrils.

Xantid swarm adds another dimension to this little mini-game. Plus, we get to play several cards which let us see the opponent's hand, which means it's sometimes possible to see if the coast is clear before going for the goblins.

[Lemnear]

One thing there is to talk about is the boarding plans against Elves. Game 2 against Anderson at the invitational I absolutely wanted Silence over the anti-hate in my hand. i wish I had someone proficient at elves around me to test against.

After talking to Anderson briefly afterwards I asked if he's ever seen silence used against him post board to which he replied "No, I'm usually just used to making a dork turn one then dying before I untap" which sounds about right to me. Certainly a silence walk until turn 3 will win storm the game a majority of the time.

How often will that happen? Well you have to have double silence (on turn 1 and turn 2) then the kill on turn three. This line is more susceptible to being on the draw as turn 1 discard can get through making me think that if it is in fact worthwhile it is better on the play than the draw perhaps.

Honestly I don't even think hatebears out of elves is that big of a deal as teeg generally slows down their ability to Hoof us and tutor for creatures and we can easily find chain/decay under their lessened pressure. It's the hands of turn 1 discard into turn 3 hoof for lethal or near lethal where the bounce/decay doesn't do so much.

I'm going to spend some games tonight testing silence vs traditional boarding, noting whether or not things are more effective on the play. I'm inclination is that silence is useful on their turn 2 especially if they are on the draw but maybe not otherwise.

Matt, I'm used to leave Silence in against deck who only interact on sorcery speed via Thorn, Cannonist, meddling mage, Teeg, Hymn, Thalia and such, instead of boarding Abrupt Decays/Chains/Therapies to deal with them.

Not sure how many cases I covered among my reports and if i did, how many you may have missed as such. i'm perfectly fine Silence-walking my opponents Turn 2 and/or 3 with them sitting on the mentioned cards or on their Natural Orders/Show&Tells.

I think it's a viable option: preventing sorcery speed hate with silence instead of removing it from the field via A.Decay + CoV

[Royce Walter]

Oh! Missed this. Royce definitely deserves a big congrats! It was great to meet him at Somerset, he's a good guy. Royce, do you think you'll be posting a tournament report?

Are you Greg? I posted a quick recap of my matches yesterday.

[davelin]

Matt, I'm used to leave Silence in against deck who only interact on sorcery speed via Thorn, Cannonist, meddling mage, Teeg, Hymn, Thalia and such, instead of boarding Abrupt Decays/Chains/Therapies to deal with them.

Not sure how many cases I covered among my reports and if i did, how many you may have missed as such. i'm perfectly fine Silence-walking my opponents Turn 2 and/or 3 with them sitting on the mentioned cards or on their Natural Orders/Show&Tells.

I think it's a viable option: preventing sorcery speed hate with silence instead of removing it from the field via A.Decay + CoV

I think the typical Silence-walk route involves Silencing during their upkeep. What do we think of Silencing in response to their first creature/sorcery-speed spell during the main phase? I say this because there have been times I've used Silence to walk during upkeep and they found out that they weren't planning to go off that turn so it was wasted.

[beezy]

Gonna be playing TES at SCG Minneapolis this weekend, first legacy tournament in about 5 years. Any tips or suggestions as to not completely flame out?

[Tammit67]

Gonna be playing TES at SCG Minneapolis this weekend, first legacy tournament in about 5 years. Any tips or suggestions as to not completely flame out?

You'll be surprised how little some decks can interact with you preboard. Even if you don't do well, play as many rounds as you can, experience is the best teacher.

[davelin]

Gonna be playing TES at SCG Minneapolis this weekend, first legacy tournament in about 5 years. Any tips or suggestions as to not completely flame out?

Blue decks -

- If they only way they can stop you is Force of Will, go for it unless you can go off next turn with protection (discard spell or Silence)
- Play around Daze if you can

Non-Blue decks -

- If they have discard, play out artifact mana ahead of time

Other combo decks -

- Be faster, use discard to slow them down, use Silence to timewalk during their turn

In general -

- If you can Ad Nauseum and you're say above 12+ life, go for it otherwise...
- If you can EtW for 10-12 goblins early (first three turns), go for it otherwise...
- Use Past in Flames, Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns to re-fuel your hands
PiF good when lots of Dark Ritual effects in yard and/or cantrips
IGG good when you have artifact mana and ideally Tutor/Wish in yard
DimRet good when you don't have much yard and/or you're playing against non-blue

[phazonmutant]

Are you Greg? I posted a quick recap of my match - es yesterday.


Yup! Just wondering of you were planning on doing a longer treatment. Thanks for posting the matchup notes though.


Davelin - the problem is that their hate comes down turn 2 and you can't respond to them playing a land. Silence is used primarily as time walk, not mind twist like in the storm mirror.

[PartyMonster]

One thing there is to talk about is the boarding plans against Elves. Game 2 against Anderson at the invitational I absolutely wanted Silence over the anti-hate in my hand. i wish I had someone proficient at elves around me to test against.

After talking to Anderson briefly afterwards I asked if he's ever seen silence used against him post board to which he replied "No, I'm usually just used to making a dork turn one then dying before I untap" which sounds about right to me. Certainly a silence walk until turn 3 will win storm the game a majority of the time.

How often will that happen? Well you have to have double silence (on turn 1 and turn 2) then the kill on turn three. This line is more susceptible to being on the draw as turn 1 discard can get through making me think that if it is in fact worthwhile it is better on the play than the draw perhaps.

Honestly I don't even think hatebears out of elves is that big of a deal as teeg generally slows down their ability to Hoof us and tutor for creatures and we can easily find chain/decay under their lessened pressure. It's the hands of turn 1 discard into turn 3 hoof for lethal or near lethal where the bounce/decay doesn't do so much.

I'm going to spend some games tonight testing silence vs traditional boarding, noting whether or not things are more effective on the play. I'm inclination is that silence is useful on their turn 2 especially if they are on the draw but maybe not otherwise.


Keep us posted. I have been feeling quite similar as of late.

[Royce Walter]

Yup! Just wondering of you were planning on doing a longer treatment. Thanks for posting the matchup notes though.


Davelin - the problem is that their hate comes down turn 2 and you can't respond to them playing a land. Silence is used primarily as time walk, not mind twist like in the storm mirror.

I don't have a lot else to say, although I can go more into detail about my round 3 vs Nick now that I can't sleep.

Game 1 I mull to 6, play 2 LEDs and a Volc, pass. On turn 1 I probe him seeing Silence, Burning Wish, Petal, lands, don't remember what else. I tap a Volc to Brainstorm on turn 3, and mid-Brainstorm my hand is Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, 2 Silence, with an Underground Sea, 2 LEDs, and (tapped) Volc in play. I think (though I can't remember for certain) that he probed me on his turn 1 or 2 and knows about the Infernal Tutor and Dark Ritual. Since I have no hand disruption and am now Brainstorm locked, I have to bait his Silence, so I put back Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor on top, play Gemstone Mine, Silence. He tanks, casts Silence in response. At the time I thought I had punted by not playing my Petal first since he can now (theoretically) go off on his turn and I don't have Silence mana up, but he told me afterward that if I had played the Petal it wouldn't have sold the bluff. On his turn, he Wishes for Therapy, Therapy naming Infernal Tutor, sees that my hand is Lotus Petal + Silence, and from there I untap, draw Infernal Tutor, cast Ad Nauseam, win fairly easily.

Game 2 I mull to 5 on the draw, and on Turn 2 he Therapies me, sees I don't have Silence, and Empties for 10 goblins. He chooses not to flashback therapy since it slows his clock down by 1 turn, and if I had ripped an LED I would have won, but I didn't get there.

Game 3 I mull to 6 and have a Silence, we both play out artifact mana and cantrip for a few turns, and I have 2 Silence, Tutor, Brainstorm, some lands and an LED in play. On my end step he casts Dark Ritual and I'm forced to let him resolve Ad Nauseam since he can just cast it on his turn if I Silence (drawing it naturally? I wonder what it feels like to be Bryant). He flips a lot of cards (0 Silence) and stops at 2 life. I upkeep Silence, he discards to hand size and passes the turn with 2 Brainstorm in hand (no unknown cards in his hand). This leaves me in an interesting spot. There are 32 cards left in his deck, 4 of which are Silence, and he can dig 4 cards deep with 2 Brainstorms on my turn for a Silence (no fetches in play), leaving me with a 50/50 chance of him effectively "having" Silence. I can either Infernal -> Wish -> Grapeshot and flip a coin hoping he bricks, or Brainstorm for disruption. I choose to Brainstorm, thinking that I have a pretty good chance to find more disruption, and I miss, pass the turn and upkeep Silence him again. Unfortunately this just puts me in a worse position than the previous turn, as he's now one draw step closer to a Silence, but I'm obviously dead if he untaps, so I have to go for it. He Brainstorms twice in response to the Tutor, and shows me the hand full of blanks.

[davelin]

I don't have a lot else to say, although I can go more into detail about my round 3 vs Nick now that I can't sleep.

Game 1 I mull to 6, play 2 LEDs and a Volc, pass. On turn 1 I probe him seeing Silence, Burning Wish, Petal, lands, don't remember what else. I tap a Volc to Brainstorm on turn 3, and mid-Brainstorm my hand is Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, 2 Silence, with an Underground Sea, 2 LEDs, and (tapped) Volc in play. I think (though I can't remember for certain) that he probed me on his turn 1 or 2 and knows about the Infernal Tutor and Dark Ritual. Since I have no hand disruption and am now Brainstorm locked, I have to bait his Silence, so I put back Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor on top, play Gemstone Mine, Silence. He tanks, casts Silence in response. At the time I thought I had punted by not playing my Petal first since he can now (theoretically) go off on his turn and I don't have Silence mana up, but he told me afterward that if I had played the Petal it wouldn't have sold the bluff. On his turn, he Wishes for Therapy, Therapy naming Infernal Tutor, sees that my hand is Lotus Petal + Silence, and from there I untap, draw Infernal Tutor, cast Ad Nauseam, win fairly easily.

Game 2 I mull to 5 on the draw, and on Turn 2 he Therapies me, sees I don't have Silence, and Empties for 10 goblins. He chooses not to flashback therapy since it slows his clock down by 1 turn, and if I had ripped an LED I would have won, but I didn't get there.

Game 3 I mull to 6 and have a Silence, we both play out artifact mana and cantrip for a few turns, and I have 2 Silence, Tutor, Brainstorm, some lands and an LED in play. On my end step he casts Dark Ritual and I'm forced to let him resolve Ad Nauseam since he can just cast it on his turn if I Silence (drawing it naturally? I wonder what it feels like to be Bryant). He flips a lot of cards (0 Silence) and stops at 2 life. I upkeep Silence, he discards to hand size and passes the turn with 2 Brainstorm in hand (no unknown cards in his hand). This leaves me in an interesting spot. There are 32 cards left in his deck, 4 of which are Silence, and he can dig 4 cards deep with 2 Brainstorms on my turn for a Silence (no fetches in play), leaving me with a 50/50 chance of him effectively "having" Silence. I can either Infernal -> Wish -> Grapeshot and flip a coin hoping he bricks, or Brainstorm for disruption. I choose to Brainstorm, thinking that I have a pretty good chance to find more disruption, and I miss, pass the turn and upkeep Silence him again. Unfortunately this just puts me in a worse position than the previous turn, as he's now one draw step closer to a Silence, but I'm obviously dead if he untaps, so I have to go for it. He Brainstorms twice in response to the Tutor, and shows me the hand full of blanks.

In game 2 did he have EtW main? If he did, isn't it typical to side it out in the mirror?

[Royce Walter]

He had to wish for Empty. I'm pretty sure he boarded the same way I did, -empty +therapy.

[PartyMonster]

I apologize in advance because The legacy pimp thread is probably the place I should be putting this question. Butttt I recently just finished making my list Non foil Japanese and the white boarder on my diminishing returns is killing me. does anyone have contact information for a good artist for alters or have an altered Japanese diminishing returns they are willing to part with? I have seen a few photos of bb altered ones as well as full art. Any help or points in the right direction would be extremely appreciated. Thanks Troopers.

[Awkamess]

He had to wish for Empty. I'm pretty sure he boarded the same way I did, -empty +therapy.

Hey Royce, grats on your T8! I was the kid sitting next to you at table 1 who pulled over a chair to watch you play haha. Your deck was sick and you played so well. I probably should have said Gerard was playing stifle when you asked me what he was playing, oversight by me I guess. Good finish nonetheless and good luck in the future!

[maritlage]

That one isn't quite fair because you can still use the cantrips drawn with DR. My issue is that you simply don't HAVE to gamble for a DR Hand which privides enough Black and Blue mana at the same time to find the kill aside from a thousands of possible combinations which just leave you dead in the water like a a hand with multiple Tutors, Cantrips and lands or a Brunch of Rituals but only a single Brainstorm.

I thought that seeing 9 cards guaranteed with a PIF loop should be more than enough to find one of 4 Infernals, 3 Wishes or an EtW (not counting finding additional cantrips off Ponder/Brainstorm.

But that is why I am arguing for DR because you its not a sure thing you will see 9 cards. In my rush to post i messed up on the math. With only one shuffle effect after PiF you would brainstorm first then you would Ponder only seeing 1 new card unless you took 2 bad cards with probe (ie lands, chrome mox, empty the warrens, ad nauseam, or infernal tutor) so in reality you may only see a total of 7 cards though in the reverse of ponder then brainstorm you may see a total of 9. DR is a much better play here yes you give interaction but you are given 7 new cards and a full set of LEd's cantrips in the deck not running for the one LED cause you hit IF or hitting BW and no other rituals to go off cause you only have BBB/R/U left in pool. Pif is the wrong play here actually run the scenario through several times going for DR and then do the same going PiF and you will see that DR is just better. Now i am not arguing that you should use DR over PiF every time but given the situation DR is the correct line of play.

[Star|Scream]

But that is why I am arguing for DR because you its not a sure thing you will see 9 cards. In my rush to post i messed up on the math. With only one shuffle effect after PiF you would brainstorm first then you would Ponder only seeing 1 new card unless you took 2 bad cards with probe (ie lands, chrome mox, empty the warrens, ad nauseam, or infernal tutor) so in reality you may only see a total of 7 cards though in the reverse of ponder then brainstorm you may see a total of 9. DR is a much better play here yes you give interaction but you are given 7 new cards and a full set of LEd's cantrips in the deck not running for the one LED cause you hit IF or hitting BW and no other rituals to go off cause you only have BBB/R/U left in pool. Pif is the wrong play here actually run the scenario through several times going for DR and then do the same going PiF and you will see that DR is just better. Now i am not arguing that you should use DR over PiF every time but given the situation DR is the correct line of play.

Can you please add some much-needed punctuation to your response? I am having a very difficult time trying to read it.

[davelin]

But that is why I am arguing for DR because you its not a sure thing you will see 9 cards. In my rush to post i messed up on the math. With only one shuffle effect after PiF you would brainstorm first then you would Ponder only seeing 1 new card unless you took 2 bad cards with probe (ie lands, chrome mox, empty the warrens, ad nauseam, or infernal tutor) so in reality you may only see a total of 7 cards though in the reverse of ponder then brainstorm you may see a total of 9. DR is a much better play here yes you give interaction but you are given 7 new cards and a full set of LEd's cantrips in the deck not running for the one LED cause you hit IF or hitting BW and no other rituals to go off cause you only have BBB/R/U left in pool. Pif is the wrong play here actually run the scenario through several times going for DR and then do the same going PiF and you will see that DR is just better. Now i am not arguing that you should use DR over PiF every time but given the situation DR is the correct line of play.

Stop at this part here. Why on earth are you brainstorming first?

[Lemnear]

But that is why I am arguing for DR because you its not a sure thing you will see 9 cards. In my rush to post i messed up on the math. With only one shuffle effect after PiF you would brainstorm first then you would Ponder only seeing 1 new card unless you took 2 bad cards with probe (ie lands, chrome mox, empty the warrens, ad nauseam, or infernal tutor) so in reality you may only see a total of 7 cards though in the reverse of ponder then brainstorm you may see a total of 9. DR is a much better play here yes you give interaction but you are given 7 new cards and a full set of LEd's cantrips in the deck not running for the one LED cause you hit IF or hitting BW and no other rituals to go off cause you only have BBB/R/U left in pool. Pif is the wrong play here actually run the scenario through several times going for DR and then do the same going PiF and you will see that DR is just better. Now i am not arguing that you should use DR over PiF every time but given the situation DR is the correct line of play.

I will not start a basic tutorial how to dig for a 7-off with BBBRUUU, 2 probes, Ponder and Brainstorm. To Brainstorm before Ponder is total nonsense.

Edit: You Probe, Probe, Ponder, brainstorm, throw back anything that isn't mana, Tutor, Wish or Ponder, play out all your mana and Wish/Tutor/ponder into the kill. Hell, you could even keep a Land + Ponder #2+ Brainstorm #2 + xxx afterwards and still win (EtW at this point is deadly in one swing).

Edit 2: if you somehow brick you have still the option left to flashback PIF either later or next turn

It does't matter if DR is in 6 outta 10 cases "better" than PIF as long as the remaining 4 cases guara-damn-teed lose you the game, all because of the variance the deck and DR has. I'm not even talking about SSG and pyroblast

[Megadeus]

Yah not casting can trips in the correct order cost me a match at SCG ATL

[maritlage]

I will not start a basic tutorial how to dig for a 7-off with BBBRUUU, 2 probes, Ponder and Brainstorm. To Brainstorm before Ponder is total nonsense.

Edit: You Probe, Probe, Ponder, brainstorm, throw back anything that isn't mana, Tutor, Wish or Ponder, play out all your mana and Wish/Tutor/ponder into the kill. Hell, you could even keep a Land + Ponder #2+ Brainstorm #2 + xxx afterwards and still win (EtW at this point is deadly in one swing).

Edit 2: if you somehow brick you have still the option left to flashback PIF either later or next turn

It does't matter if DR is in 6 outta 10 cases "better" than PIF as long as the remaining 4 cases guara-damn-teed lose you the game, all because of the variance the deck and DR has. I'm not even talking about SSG and pyroblast

So let me get this straight; what you are saying is you are willing to gamble on hitting basically 1 of 3 BW left in the deck. You are willing to gamble on hitting 39 other cards that do not win the game but to gamble on a whole new seven for you and your opponent for the win is completely wrong because it gives your opponent a whole new seven. And please explain how you can win with a sorcery speed deck when your opponent can caste a moon effect or just win out right with grindstone. Also if we brick as does our opponent we are still up the creek with out a paddle because all it takes is a swing from the Figure of Destiny and the 2 painters for 6 damage. Now if we brick on the PiF using all our cantrips that is 10 damage all together. Plus one mountain means we are taking 12 damage. On top of all this the OP did not state their life total to begin with but with the board state described I am betting it is not at a good number so one swing does us in. So the "DR Roulette" as you say is a no go but gambling hitting the right combo of cards to win on the spot when 39 are a dead cause to you except in the most extreme cases is okay. DR is just amazing here PiF is not even in the game.

[davelin]

So let me get this straight; what you are saying is you are willing to gamble on hitting basically 1 of 3 BW left in the deck. You are willing to gamble on hitting 39 other cards that do not win the game but to gamble on a whole new seven for you and your opponent for the win is completely wrong because it gives your opponent a whole new seven. And please explain how you can win with a sorcery speed deck when your opponent can caste a moon effect or just win out right with grindstone. Also if we brick as does our opponent we are still up the creek with out a paddle because all it takes is a swing from the Figure of Destiny and the 2 painters for 6 damage. Now if we brick on the PiF using all our cantrips that is 10 damage all together. Plus one mountain means we are taking 12 damage. On top of all this the OP did not state their life total to begin with but with the board state described I am betting it is not at a good number so one swing does us in. So the "DR Roulette" as you say is a no go but gambling hitting the right combo of cards to win on the spot when 39 are a dead cause to you except in the most extreme cases is okay. DR is just amazing here PiF is not even in the game.

It's the same gamble finding one of a three-of with the DimRet as well but instead of hitting 39 other cards...you're hitting on ~55 other cards. Yes you may get IT + LED in the 7 new cards, but that's not a very high chance too. Don't forget we also need storm to finish off the opponent. PiF gives us easy access to more storm, DimRet doesn't necessarily. DimRet is a much higher variance play.

[sconnell]

DR is just amazing here PiF is not even in the game.

For PiF to work out, you need to find an answer in 9 cards.
For DR to work out, you need a good new hand AND for the opponent to not get a new hand that disrupts yours. I don't think this is as likely as you seem to think it is.

I am never thrilled to cast DR, because there's always the possibility that it won't work out. This is not the same thing as saying that I only cast it as a last resort. It's a gamble, but sometimes it's a the best gamble out of available options. Sometimes it's not.

[maritlage]

For PiF to work out, you need to find an answer in 9 cards.
For DR to work out, you need a good new hand AND for the opponent to not get a new hand that disrupts yours. I don't think this is as likely as you seem to think it is.

I am never thrilled to cast DR, because there's always the possibility that it won't work out. This is not the same thing as saying that I only cast it as a last resort. It's a gamble, but sometimes it's a the best gamble out of available options. Sometimes it's not.

Yes no one is ever thrilled to cast DR unless you are playing dredge and you need to time walk them a turn to get the win. But on the same token you are forcing your opponent to have answers or lose. Yes I will admit that DR can lose you the game but every one seems to think that PiF is just the auto win here, unless my reading comprehension has gone the way of the dinosaurs, which is not the case. From my own experience playing and having a friend help me understand where I could improve my play I received an extra 4 turns for using DR. We all know this is not the with mono-red painter in this board state. We need to win now or never so DR though it may brick allows for lot more wiggle room then PiF. This is because the LED's can be cracked for any and all colors including 6 U 3 R leaving us with one untapped gold land for black 4 U and 1 R after DR as one combination of color or my afore mentioned combo of U/BB/RR or U/B/RRR the list goes on. Also we have not made a land drop this turn freeing up even more mana to cast what ever we may draw.

[Lemnear]

So let me get this straight; what you are saying is you are willing to gamble on hitting basically 1 of 3 BW left in the deck. You are willing to gamble on hitting 39 other cards that do not win the game but to gamble on a whole new seven for you and your opponent for the win is completely wrong because it gives your opponent a whole new seven. And please explain how you can win with a sorcery speed deck when your opponent can caste a moon effect or just win out right with grindstone. Also if we brick as does our opponent we are still up the creek with out a paddle because all it takes is a swing from the Figure of Destiny and the 2 painters for 6 damage. Now if we brick on the PiF using all our cantrips that is 10 damage all together. Plus one mountain means we are taking 12 damage. On top of all this the OP did not state their life total to begin with but with the board state described I am betting it is not at a good number so one swing does us in. So the "DR Roulette" as you say is a no go but gambling hitting the right combo of cards to win on the spot when 39 are a dead cause to you except in the most extreme cases is okay. DR is just amazing here PiF is not even in the game.

No,

- you have BBBRUUU available
- you have 4 Virtual cards in your hand after resolving your cantrips
- among those cantrips is a Brainstorm to throw away cards which may brick your hand
- You may see more cards via cantrip chains after the Probe/Probe/Ponder combo (aka another Ponder)
- you have to find either one of the 4 Infernals (turned on by Brainstorm) or one of 3 wishes.
- PIF creates a lethal amount of goblins so EtW is another card to consider for cantrippin into
- PIF guarantees seeing 9 cards out of 39 with options for more
- DR guarantees seeing 7 out of 49 with the option to remove several Wishes/Infernals on resolution
- in both cases, PIF and DR, you'll likely lose if you fizzle
- don't slap me with Moon effects or Grindstone off the topdeck as an argument after suggesting giving your opponent 7 free cards
- DR is best used turn 1 or 2; not as a panic button

[Kayradis]

I strongly believe that PiF > DR.

Every time I ended up using DR, most of the stuff I was looking for was exiled as the 10 top cards.
Cantrip order is quite essential here as well.

[davelin]

No,

- you have BBBRUUU available
- you have 4 Virtual cards in your hand after resolving your cantrips
- among those cantrips is a Brainstorm to throw away cards which may brick your hand
- You may see more cards via cantrip chains after the Probe/Probe/Ponder combo (aka another Ponder)
- you have to find either one of the 4 Infernals (turned on by Brainstorm) or one of 3 wishes.
- PIF creates a lethal amount of goblins so EtW is another card to consider for cantrippin into
- PIF guarantees seeing 9 cards out of 39 with options for more
- DR guarantees seeing 7 out of 49 with the option to remove several Wishes/Infernals on resolution
- in both cases, PIF and DR, you'll likely lose if you fizzle
- don't slap me with Moon effects or Grindstone off the topdeck as an argument after suggesting giving your opponent 7 free cards
- DR is best used turn 1 or 2; not as a panic button

Lem,

I agree with everything you say here but your last statement has me thinking more since this hasn't been how I've been using it. If I'm in a situation where I can DimRet turn 1 or 2, then I'm usually casting EtW for 8-10 goblins. I've been using DimRet more in situations like this i.e. mid-game, my hand has been whittled down because of counters/discard/mis-firing earlier. Can you clarify more on situations where you would want to DimRet turn 1 or 2 instead of firing off some goblins or crafting our hand for another turn?

[Mindlash]

Lem,

I agree with everything you say here but your last statement has me thinking more since this hasn't been how I've been using it. If I'm in a situation where I can DimRet turn 1 or 2, then I'm usually casting EtW for 8-10 goblins. I've been using DimRet more in situations like this i.e. mid-game, my hand has been whittled down because of counters/discard/mis-firing earlier. Can you clarify more on situations where you would want to DimRet turn 1 or 2 instead of firing off some goblins or crafting our hand for another turn?

Taken from Bryants OP:


Diminishing Returns is there as an efficient way of obtaining a new hand, it's not a "Hail Mary Pass" as some storm players believe it to be. It's actually best to not cast the spell the last possible turn before "combo-ing off", because well, there's always a chance you don't win off of it. If Diminishing Returns is cast in the early game and it’s not successful it's not as backbreaking as when cast on the last possible turn. There is always chance of winning on the following turn and the probability is dramatically increased.

Greetings Chris

[Lemnear]

Lem,

I agree with everything you say here but your last statement has me thinking more since this hasn't been how I've been using it. If I'm in a situation where I can DimRet turn 1 or 2, then I'm usually casting EtW for 8-10 goblins. I've been using DimRet more in situations like this i.e. mid-game, my hand has been whittled down because of counters/discard/mis-firing earlier. Can you clarify more on situations where you would want to DimRet turn 1 or 2 instead of firing off some goblins or crafting our hand for another turn?

I gladly elaborate. While grabbing EtW with a turn 1 or 2 Wish is often successful, there are enough matchups in which doing this equals punting the game:

- being on the draw against an opponent starting with Bayou and DRS. You cast EtW just to see your Army fall victim to Deed or Maelstrom Pulse!
- against RUG/BUG decks which bring in Engineered Explosives against your Goblins and mana artifacts.
- Empty for 8 Goblins just to see your opponent casting Show&Tell/Past in Flames in the turns you gave him
- Storm count is too low to create enough Goblins to Race your opponents clock (see turn 2 SFM -> Batterskull)
- to negate the negative effect of a mulligan or a Chrome Mox.
- screw other decks on their starting 7 if you play first (drawing them into a no-lander)
- etc.

just a few examples from the top of my head. Casting DR as a panic button often gives your opponent more nails for your casket than helping you

[paeng4983]

TES in Manila
4 August 2013
Duel for Duals
BCI Makati

http://mtglegacy.freeforums.org/tjb-tes-duel-for-duals-legacy-t-4-aug-at-bci-mkti-t8.html

[davelin]

Hello fellow stormers! Ran into the following situation while playing/testing online. Maybe it's a straight-forward situation but wanted to get your thoughts.

Situation - Game 3 against Junk. Lost a close game one against a T2 Thalia and an active Batterskull T4. Won game 2 off of the back of a T2 Ad Nauseum. I've sided in my Chains/Decays for Silence and the maindeck EtW. It's the beginning of my T2 on the draw and here is the board-state:

Him -
19 life

Tapped Deathrite Shaman
Untapped Phyrexian Revoker (naming LED)
2 tapped duals
1 fetchland in graveyard

From a T1 Probe we know all of his cards in hand -
Jitte
Knight of the Reliquary
Stoneforge Mystic
Surgical Extraction

Our side -
18 life

City of Brass

Cards in hand -
2x Lotus Petal
Infernal Tutor
Burning Wish
Dark Ritual
Decay
Volcanic Island
Ponder (just drawn for the turn)

We obviously aren't in a state where we have to do anything necessarily this turn, but with our opponent's ability to get down and equip a Jitte or cast Mystic retrieving Batterskull, we probably need to start moving soon. What would you do here? Options seem to include -

1) Use Wish and mana in hand to generate 10 goblins
2) Use Ponder to setup future turns and Decay the Revoker (or Mystic?) depending on what we find
3) Use Wish to DimRet (unlikely but still an option)

Thanks in advance!

[Lemnear]

TES in Manila
4 August 2013
Duel for Duals
BCI Makati

http://mtglegacy.freeforums.org/tjb-tes-duel-for-duals-legacy-t-4-aug-at-bci-mkti-t8.html


RD_1 Death and Taxes
G1: Opened the game with a bunch of cantrips and mana accelerators in my initial seven. He began the game with a Mother of runes, then turn two Stoneforge Mystic fetching a foil Batterskull and turn three 2nd Mother of Runes. On my first three turns, all I did was sculpt my hand with my cantrips and on my 4th turn, I was able summoned 16 naughty goblin.

Stopped reading here. Saw more mistakes while quickly browsing through the rest of the Report aka dropping LED's against a deck with Deed's/Pulse (without a chance to go off soon), not going for EtW turn 1 in R7 G1 and many more

[Megadeus]

Went for goblins despite knowing your opponent had the skull in hand? You need an astronomical number of goblins to beat active skull. And at that point tendrils just kills him

[Lemnear]

Davelin, I think going for the natural Tendrils is within reach if you play Volcanic and Infernal for Dark Ritual to bait the surgical extraction for him going to 17 and use your hand, the drawn card and a card off your Ponder to Wish for a lethal Tendrils for 18

[Royce Walter]

I'd probably just play volc, ponder. If you hit hand disruption + LED you can play petal, petal, decay the revoker, untap, take the surgical, IGG loop, which is the most straightforward path. If not you really just need to find one blue mana source to returns between the random card from ponder and your draw step, and even if you miss there you still have a lot of options.

Did you pay mana for the probe and then he attacked you with deathrite? I was trying to figure out why the deathrite was tapped and that makes the most sense.

[davelin]

Davelin, I think going for the natural Tendrils is within reach if you play Volcanic and Infernal for Dark Ritual to bait the surgical extraction for him going to 17 and use your hand, the drawn card and a card off your Ponder to Wish for a lethal Tendrils for 18

Unfortunately can't ponder, tutor and Wish for tendrils this turn unless ponder brings mox or petal or ritual. Otherwise can only definitively tendrils for 14 and even a surgical doesn't get there this turn.

edit: but agree that pondering first is probably the right play

[davelin]

I'd probably just play volc, ponder. If you hit hand disruption + LED you can play petal, petal, decay the revoker, untap, take the surgical, IGG loop, which is the most straightforward path. If not you really just need to find one blue mana source to returns between the random card from ponder and your draw step, and even if you miss there you still have a lot of options.

Did you pay mana for the probe and then he attacked you with deathrite? I was trying to figure out why the deathrite was tapped and that makes the most sense.

Probe for life and one attack, I should be at 17 life, not 18.