[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Tammit67]

As others have said, be sure to be thorough with counting storm and mana. I recommend dice, even different colored ones for your type of mana floating (black, red, etc)!

Ugh, dice are awkward as hell, especially if you start playing with them. Writing everything down and the spells cast ensures 0 confusion and you can always run back through the chain should there be a discrepancy and a judge gets called.

[Machahiko]

If you ever want to be good in anything at life, you have to be healthy. Your mind and body should both be in good shape, remember to sleep, relax, don't stress too much, eat and so on. I can promise you, the worst time you'll ever have playing Magic the Gathering is when you're mind, body or both are sick. I've tried playing while having only two hours of sleep before a tournament (0-5, perfect record!) or stressing about your life in general. Remember to eat and especially drink, or you'll find yourself way too exhausted at some point to make good decisions when you have to make one.

Other than that, don't be afraid to fail or lose. Sometimes you just have to lose your head and go for their throat if you believe they don't have it.

I had my birthday two days ago and wanted to make a small project. Last year I signed up to the secret santa thingy and got one lotus petal and _opened_ innistrad booster with a shitty rare. This time I wanted to make something a little bit more special for Christmas. If you want to, send me your post address and I'll send you a card for TES as a birthday/christmas present, with a poor alteration by me. (Notice, the cards will be cheap as dirt shit - goblin tokens and maybe duresses.) I'm poor so I have to roll by sending cheap shit. Hit me up if you're interested in bad cards altered very badly as a present.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

As others have said, be sure to be thorough with counting storm and mana. I recommend dice, even different colored ones for your type of mana floating (black, red, etc)!
I used the dice and was very unsatisfied with them. It takes too much time to find the correct number, you must switch pen and dice, etc.
Also, don't use the papers with too many print on them, like 95 % of what you'll get in a usual lgs. You don't need their logo, all the nonsense like "opponents name" and vertical lines, etc. It will distract you and you'll have not enough space for really important notes like cards seen in Duress, etc. Take enough A5 papers and use one paper per game no matter what. It's better to waste a nigh clean paper then to miscount storm or misread a Therapy note.

[JPoJohnson]

I have twenty sided dice as well as 10 sided dice of each mana color. I know TES fairly well, just not in a tournament setting. I've played against many other decks of the format (UW Deathblade, Merfolk, Belcher, Mirror, Goblins, UW Miracles, Dredge) so i know how to play the format. The other suggestions though are exactly the type im looking for. Thanks (:

Edit: I've liked the dice for mana, disliked the dice for storm count. Ill just keep track of it by writing down.


Another question: I read in a tournament report that opponents are allowed to ask to look at your notes? (A judge at the SCG tournament made him show his opponent). I guess I'll write down in a way i understand and they don't.

[davelin]

I have twenty sided dice as well as 10 sided dice of each mana color. I know TES fairly well, just not in a tournament setting. I've played against many other decks of the format (UW Deathblade, Merfolk, Belcher, Mirror, Goblins, UW Miracles, Dredge) so i know how to play the format. The other suggestions though are exactly the type im looking for. Thanks (:

Edit: I've liked the dice for mana, disliked the dice for storm count. Ill just keep track of it by writing down.


Another question: I read in a tournament report that opponents are allowed to ask to look at your notes? (A judge at the SCG tournament made him show his opponent). I guess I'll write down in a way i understand and they don't.

Yes I believe life totals and notes written down can be viewed so don't write down your opening hands at least not without coding it! I also haven't played competitively in awhile, I assume you can look at your sideboard anytime during the match, not just when you are casting a Wish spell?

[Lemnear]

Write down the whole spells' chain, it's far more easy to recover game state than just from the storm commas. Also, you may analyze your play later, and I have an impresion that my opponents were impressed that contrary to the dudes who just count the spells, I'm pretty good with Storm, because I write down the whole spells' chain so that I may analyze my play later.

It also looks pretty funny.
"RoF (Daze! - DRit!), Mox (BS), Ponder, DRit, LED, AdN (LED: BBB)..."
You know.

Making excessive notes is time consuming in your turn. The mana-colored-dice-System I presented a few pages back works wonders. Without trying to be a douche, but didn't you announce to sell your ANT/TNT after going 0-X in 2 tournaments in a row with storm? I would have loved to see those excessive notes to analyze what wet wrong...


Cool, tourney report coming? Test any changes esp to the maindeck?

Let's say there were 3 hilarious games:

1) against UWR Delver I managed to resolve 18 Goblins through Wasteland, double Daze, double Pierce, FoW and Stifle (not all in a single turn, obviously)

2) opend on the draw with 2 LED, 3 Petal, Gemstone, EtW. Draw mox, play out the hand right into Flusterstorm while he's laughing. I just remind him about the LED's, break both and pay for an Army which kills him in 2 swings XD

3) against a friend playing OmniTell, I was able to Therapy 3 Omniscience in game 2 and in game 3 he kept 3(!!) FoW in Order to prevent 2 Wishes (I played to bait counters) and my actual combo move x(. We are both in topdeck mode then and he S&T's Omniscience into play, but doesn't find a way to kill me after blowing Release the Ants against a Xantid. I resolve a second Bug and win with Ad Nauseam into PIF with him having 3 counterspells in hand, disabled by Xantid



There's no full report coming because I was late and had to finish my R1 opponent (Meerfolk) therefore in a rush. I made one of 2 critical mistakes that day in game 2 because of the time pressure ... still got my 2-0. The other misplay, I was able to negate with Jedi mind tricks.

It was the -1 Mox, +1 Fetch list with Pyroclasm in the SB, which saved my ass against Dark Maverick. The Land was crucial to battle the Delvers flurry of manadenial and did not hurt the 2 Ad Nauseam cast that day. EtW was MVP as usual


Ok guys, confession time: I've never been to a legacy event.

There, i said it. Im taking TES (Played many many games with it for many months now) to a GPT this weekend and wondered if there were any general tips to give for either piloting this deck or things to watch for in a tournament setting?

Use 8 dices: 4 D20 for life, Token, Gemstone counters, etc. 1 Crazy colored D10 for storm, and one D10 each in the colors red, blue and black (for flooded mana). I posted a picture of those a few pages back.

Sadly, it's a cruel fact that you need to learn this deck under tournament conditions to control your body Language and facial expression in Order to Jedi mind trick your opponents with certain gestures (laying your hand facedown on the table and pompously pick them up 1-2 turns later, rearrange your spells and lands to play out counter-baits to make that crap look important, etc.).

This is a Poker players deck. There's no success if your opponent can read you or if you are shaking nervous and make hasty, bad plays and miscount all day.

My personal advice: don't mull too much. Greedy mulligans because the hand is a bit slow or sketchy result in the most losses, you'll have with the deck. A good mulligan rate is anything below 20% of your hands. If your number Tops those 20% by far, reevaluate your mulligans and/or practice shuffling ;)

[GoblinSettler]

I have tried dice but find it difficult to manage when multiple values change at once.

I now write down notes using a simple scheme. An example from my last storm match looks like this.

S 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
B 3 2 5 3
U 1 0
R 2 3

Write down the latest values as they change. Don't cross out or erase them. Sometimes, like casting a couple petals when the coast is clear, I will skip over intermediate results. Storm could jump from 3 to 5, say.

I like this much better than fumbling with dice. Changing over smoothed out my mechanical game while playing.

[Acclimation]

Posting in support of using multiple dice to count storm and mana. There's enough spindowns around nowadays that it's easy to trade people to get one for each color (or just spend .50), and it makes things pretty easy for both you and your opponent.

That being said, your mileage may vary, and some people prefer to write things down, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Lemnear]

Adjusting dices is Yoga. It calms you down and is a visual help ... you'll make less mistakes than using pen&paper. Disadvantage of switching between P&P and dices during a match for notes (Probe, Discard, starting hands).

Edit: all those talk about keeping track of mana/life/storm isn't really helpful if you never played with this deck in a real tournament Environment and make mistakes being nervous and such

[Jaycounet]

3) against a friend playing OmniTell, I was able to Therapy 3 Omniscience in game 2 and in game 3 he kept 3(!!) FoW in Order to prevent 2 Wishes (I played to bait counters) and my actual combo move x(. We are both in topdeck mode then and he S&T's Omniscience into play, but doesn't find a way to kill me after blowing Release the Ants against a Xantid. I resolve a second Bug and win with Ad Nauseam into PIF with him having 3 counterspells in hand, disabled by Xantid



Hi what was your side in in side out game 2 ?

[Lemnear]

Hi what was your side in in side out game 2 ?

-3 Duress, -1 Infernal, -1 EtW, + 3 Xantid Swarms, +2 CoV

[Jaycounet]

-3 Duress, -1 Infernal, -1 EtW, + 3 Xantid Swarms, +2 CoV

Hum i've surelly miss somehting

how many dures / therapy are your running ?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Edit: all those talk about keeping track of mana/life/storm isn't really helpful if you never played with this deck in a real tournament Environment and make mistakes being nervous and such
Yes, but JPoJohnson asked about some tips (and clearly didn't need help with "keep priority after playing IT" kind of things), but rather with these not-so-obvious and kinda-outside-the-game things.



Making excessive notes is time consuming in your turn. The mana-colored-dice-System I presented a few pages back works wonders. Without trying to be a douche, but didn't you announce to sell your ANT/TNT after going 0-X in 2 tournaments in a row with storm? I would have loved to see those excessive notes to analyze what wet wrong...

You still need to switch pen and dice. Then swotch back dice and pen. Then switch pen and dice. And then... you know. Also, even if you use the 1-20 spindown dice instead of the random ones, you still need to manipulate them. I find it distracting, annoying and time consuming. Add tokens, Therapy notes, etc. and you may get lost in the process. But to each his own.
Notes are gone, I use them when I write reports and then they end in waste. Also, it's not like I do excessive notes.. (I find it strange that you thougt andasked about it, after all, you also must do some notes unless your reports are written from memory.) I basically never write anything unimportant, and then I write down the spells chain and such to have a written testimony of what happened in case argument arises, then I got the life points (and next to them I write what happened, if it's important; this way you may easily associate the game factors like life lost so far, number of Duresses played, the cca number of turns, etc.)

19 19 Ponder
18 19 Dur (Daze, FoW, FoW, Plains, fetch, Mystic) -> FoW
17 18 CoF
17 18 Mystic (BSK)
17 18 eot BSK; eot LDV (FoW)
13 22
11 21 GP, CT (FoW!)
DRit, CoF, CRit, LED, IT (LED: RRR) -> PiF; PiF, Drit, Dur, Crit, IT, GP, ToA
9 21
37 0
And imagine a "U:", "B:" and "R:" columns somewhere on that paper.

LEDs are already gone, so are the two of three USeas. Also, the reason why I'm selling the deck are not the two losses. I'm not that silly.

[Deviruchi]

Ok guys, confession time: I've never been to a legacy event.

There, i said it. Im taking TES (Played many many games with it for many months now) to a GPT this weekend and wondered if there were any general tips to give for either piloting this deck or things to watch for in a tournament setting?


Get some sleep. Stay hydrated. If you are thirsty it is already too late. Try to act the same all the time. Don't let them read you. Hide your goblin tokens. Try to figure out your next play/turn (order of spells) in your head so you won't make an error. Write down stack if you plan to cast PiF / IGG / DReturns. Some opponents can try to tell judge that you didn't cast some spells and your storm count is 8/9. Print SB advices if you don't remember / understand them by heart. Think. Be confident. Be humble. You are not Bryant Cook.

Good luck!

[Lemnear]

@BDP

I have the advantage of untimed rounds in the events I wrote these reports and use partly stenography, otherwise it would be impossible to catch all the details.

[davelin]

Lem,

What are you taking out to make room for the Pyroclasm in the board?

[Mindlash]

Lem,

What are you taking out to make room for the Pyroclasm in the board?

Ill-Gotten Gains or as of the new list in the starting post Tropical Island.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@BDP

I have the advantage of untimed rounds in the events I wrote these reports and use partly stenography, otherwise it would be impossible to catch all the details.

I found the 50 minutes enough, also I don't write everything. It takes very little time to write these things down, and you may use the opponents' time when they're fetching, kiblering and such. You can't do much stuff during your combo turn, but well, there's hardly anything else necessary enough than to write down the spells chain and you're doing it so or so to have that written testimony of things that happened. I can't stenograph, but I don't think that it takes that much more time to use the usual shortcuts then to stenotype:

19 19 BS
18 19 Dur (FoW!)
18 18 CB
17 17 SDT
16 17 Decay
14 17 GP, CT, DRit, blargh, blargh, blargh...

[Lemnear]

Lem,

What are you taking out to make room for the Pyroclasm in the board?

With the additional land already in my MB over the 3rd mox, I have Bryants SB Tropical slot open for a meta-slot like Clasm

[davelin]

With the additional land already in my MB over the 3rd mox, I have Bryants SB Tropical slot open for a meta-slot like Clasm

For the SCG open this weekend, I am thinking of running the same SB as you but possibly without the MB change (-1 Mox +1 Fetch). Think that's a mistake? Is the extra land against mana denial worth the explosiveness versus other decks?

[Jaycounet]

Hum i've surelly miss somehting

how many dures / therapy are your running ?

you wish the therapy ?

[Lemnear]

For the SCG open this weekend, I am thinking of running the same SB as you but possibly without the MB change (-1 Mox +1 Fetch). Think that's a mistake? Is the extra land against mana denial worth the explosiveness versus other decks?

Let me set the question here into another perspective: how good is having Chrome Mox in your starting grip (not to talk about mulligans) or drawn in average? Is it better than a land in non T1-AN/EtW hands? Is it better than a land versus discard? Is it better to play around taxing effects (permaments and spells aka thalia and softcounter)?

These are the questions I asked myself as my meta shifted away from Combo and Aggro, towards an undefined mass of Flusterstorm/Thoughtseize/Daze/Pierce/FoW/Therapy/Stifle/Wasteland ... Heck, I barely face anything that isn't Delver in various Colors or a flavor or Show&Tell!

I am overall unwilling to go all-in on turn 1/2 in this metagame as you might imagine and therefore I like to operate on a more stable manabase to Dismember my opponents and win out of the blue after doing so. A lot of those matches turn into attrition wars and I like creating cardadvantage with Wish->Therapy, rather than 2-1 myself early.

It's a metagame choice. Nothing more


you wish the therapy ?

To answer this and the question before: i have 3 Duress Main, 2 Therapy Side. I boarded out all discard in Game 2 and wished for the Therapy because he didn't drop a leyline so I was able to strip his 3 Omniscience (knew 2 off a T1 Therapy)

[JPoJohnson]

I've used dice to tally everything since I picked up the decks at the beginning of this year so it's not an issue, I enjoy using the dice. I've never written anything down, but I have in mind a coding way to keep tallies of everything without them understanding what I'm writing. I would love to come back with a clear concise tournament report, but I guess we'll see how my notes turn up haha.

I'm confident enough in my abilities to use the deck and manipulate it in a way that is effective, whether optimal or not on certain plays is another thing, so I'm fine with that. Perhaps in certain situations I may get nervous as I'm playing, but the game is for fun regardless of whether you win... right? I'm just excited to finally be able to put it to good use beyond the three different playgroups I've bounced around in (And like I posted prior, there are some quite competitive decks in them. I was surprised how powerful the deck was against Merfolk (My other deck). It was a great feeling looking at my hand and realizing what spells I could play to bait out their counter spells since they feel important, but are really throw away. I hope to get better at reading my opponent and playing the deck based on the opponent's deck.

[Jaycounet]

Ok it was not clear

(omniclash game still a quite hard to manage is quite quick and without xantid quite dangerous to go all in)

[oSeabass]

I have tried dice but find it difficult to manage when multiple values change at once.

I now write down notes using a simple scheme. An example from my last storm match looks like this.

S 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
B 3 2 5 3
U 1 0
R 2 3

Write down the latest values as they change. Don't cross out or erase them. Sometimes, like casting a couple petals when the coast is clear, I will skip over intermediate results.

I really like your idea of having that style for counting the mana and storm. It looks very helpful in tracing things back. I will def. be trying that style the next time I storm. I normally use a full new sheet of paper in a little 6 x 9 inch memo book from Staples. Life totals on the top left and Storm stuff on the right. I use the top right half as space for cards revealed (off Probe, Therapy, etc.), and the bottom half for Mana and Storm count. I use tally marks in the traditional slash the 5th mark, start a new set at 6.

I have not been a fan of dice, I do have a colored set of d12 for each color of mana as well as a neutral color for the storm count. This made me slow down as I found the right number (no spin down). I switched over to pen and paper, and I like it better because it seems more fluid when you need more time to think through a line of play. You can spend brainpower figuring a sequence, instead of looking for 4 on your red die.

On taking notes: I constantly make notes during a match. If an opponent played some land weird, or something in an odd order that makes me question it, I normally write it down in my notes area with the revealed cards. Whenever a revealed card is played, I cross it out. Once that list gets down to a card or to I either circle the remainder or cross it out and rewrite it in a cleaner space.

During AdN, when I am losing a bunch of life I normally start before the starting life total, and count it down out loud as I reveal. If I ever get to a point where I want to think about the cards left and the life total while AN is resolving, I write the current life total down and circle it really big. I normally mention I am at X life, and I am going to think a little before I keep going. This way my opponent has a chance to comment on the life totals, as well as make me pause to think through what they are playing and how to win. Example: playing against RUG, I knew something was in their hand by the lines they took, but I couldn't resolve Silence. I paused at 5 life knowing they had a Volcanic untapped which could potentially be something like Bolt for 3 to the dome to win.

@Bed Decks Palyer: I really like your way of annotating spells to help record lines of play. I may try that at a local GPT coming up.

[davelin]

Let me set the question here into another perspective: how good is having Chrome Mox in your starting grip (not to talk about mulligans) or drawn in average? Is it better than a land in non T1-AN/EtW hands? Is it better than a land versus discard? Is it better to play around taxing effects (permaments and spells aka thalia and softcounter)?

These are the questions I asked myself as my meta shifted away from Combo and Aggro, towards an undefined mass of Flusterstorm/Thoughtseize/Daze/Pierce/FoW/Therapy/Stifle/Wasteland ... Heck, I barely face anything that isn't Delver in various Colors or a flavor or Show&Tell!

I am overall unwilling to go all-in on turn 1/2 in this metagame as you might imagine and therefore I like to operate on a more stable manabase to Dismember my opponents and win out of the blue after doing so. A lot of those matches turn into attrition wars and I like creating cardadvantage with Wish->Therapy, rather than 2-1 myself early.

It's a metagame choice. Nothing more



To answer this and the question before: i have 3 Duress Main, 2 Therapy Side. I boarded out all discard in Game 2 and wished for the Therapy because he didn't drop a leyline so I was able to strip his 3 Omniscience (knew 2 off a T1 Therapy)

Any concerns the loss of the third mox has on a resolved Ad Nauseum?

[Lemnear]

Any concerns the loss of the third mox has on a resolved Ad Nauseum?

Only if I already burned 3+ mana artifacts, have already made my landdrop and Ad Nauseam without mana floating

[Final Fortune]

Odd thought, but considering Abrupty Decay and Xantid Swarm are green and we're playing a Tropical Island in the SB, is there any merrit in replacing Silence with Autumn's Veil? Obviously Autumn's Veil is strictly worse vs Vendillion Clique, combo, discard and hatebear based decks than Silence, but it does have the merrit of being a more color efficient protection spell for the combo post-board.

Probably an unsound idea, but I thought I'd bring it up. Maybe it's a viable way of playing Silence 5+ post-board for counter/removal heavy match ups where Xantid Swarm is otherwise unplayable or further diversifying MD disruption i.e. 3 Silence, 1 Autumn's Veil, 2 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy etc.?

[TimHarding]

Any concerns the loss of the third mox has on a resolved Ad Nauseum?

Concern yes but, I've gone to two and not once had had issues after resolving..

[Jay_Gatz]

Odd thought, but considering Abrupty Decay and Xantid Swarm are green and we're playing a Tropical Island in the SB, is there any merrit in replacing Silence with Autumn's Veil? Obviously Autumn's Veil is strictly worse vs Vendillion Clique, combo, discard and hatebear based decks than Silence, but it does have the merrit of being a more color efficient protection spell for the combo post-board. Probably an unsound idea, but I thought I'd bring it up. Maybe it's a viable way of playing Silence 5+ post-board for counter/removal heavy match ups where Xantid Swarm is otherwise unplayable or further diversifying MD disruption i.e. 3 Silence, 1 Autumn's Veil, 2 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy etc.?
You can't time walk with autumns veil.

[paeng4983]

RE: - 1 Chrome mox for + 1 City of Brass
For the 1st night –1 Chrome Mox for +1 City of Brass (upside down) with Trop’s slot being pyroclasm for 6 games against Maverick and Reanimator.
For the 2nd night, -1 Chrome Mox for +1 Fetchand with Cook’s SB list for 6 games too with the same decks.
And here’s the stuffs relating to the topic:

1st night:
vs. Mavs
G1: I did manage to draw the upside down brass, but it was irrelevant for I had enough mana to go off with ETW for 8 storm finishing the game in two turns. Well if it was a Chrome Mox, it will just increase the number of my goblin warriors by two. But it really didn’t matter for my opponent doesn’t have any answer for my 16 little green men. (1-0)

G2: We did use SB cards for this game. There was a point where he had a Thalia on the table and the upside down brass was forutnately in my hand. It effectively increased my mana against his taxing power for two turns before bouncing his Thalia then went off unmolested in my turn using tutor for ROF wish into PiF into X goblin tokens. (2-0)

G3: He was able to set up his defense with Teeg, Thalia and Canonist. Pyroclasm was very helpful here but another Thalia came down to his aid and it was an uphill for I failed to draw for an answer. I lose to Thalia and ooze who was busy eating up my GY. (2-1)

*deck with these kind of hate (Thalia, Teeg, Canonist, Aven Mindcensor, Mother of Runes, Mirran), Pyroclasm really shines the best. Pyroclasm also is at best vs. goblins, elves and other small aggro archetype.

vs. Reanimator
G1: My opening seven was: LED ROF ROF silence petal, brass (upside down) and wish. Good thing it was a brass it this situation. I went for it via Silence protected Diminishing Return but was not so lucky in the new set of seven. I lose to Iona naming Black minutes later. (2-2)

G2: No SB used yet for this game. The upside down brass was not a factor here. Eventually I won via tendrils off an Ad naus. (3-2). There was a point where I was looking for a mana source in the form of petal or chrome. Maybe if the revealed upside down brass was a chrome, i didn't need to dig deeper because digging deeper increases your chances of getting hit my a singleton ETW or your 2cc tutors or wishes which can caused you the game.

G3: wih SB. My opening hand was: xantid, ponder, tarn, mox, silence, LED and tutor. The upside down brass was one of the cards that I saw off the ponder. A turn a later, I dropped it cast the bug and it did not get countered. Bug attacks a turn after to protect my combo during my second phase. (4-2)

==== 00 ==========

2nd night
vs. reanimator
G1: We started our playtest with SB. The upside down brass (in this case it’s an additional fetch) didn’t showed here. I managed to win this game thanks to his exhume, allowing me to revive the countered bug of my own. I swang it, got blocked his grisel. He gained 7 life but unable to interact with my chain of spell ending with a lethal TOA. (5-2)

G2: Still with SB. I had a first turn ad naus, I greedily went for the kill but met his Force of Will. He won the game shoft after retrieving his demon named Griselbrand. (5-3)

G3: Still with SB. Eventhough the upside down brass (fetch in this case) showed up, it did not played any significant role because I was lacking protection. I tried to go off after turns of not drawing any protection but only to be halted by his counterspells. I lose eventually to Iona (on black) and grisel. (5-4)

vs. Maverick
G1: No SB. Wasteland plus Thalia imprisoned me here. The upside down brass (fetch) was no where to be found. I lost eventually to his mob of green and white creatures. (5-5)

G2: with SB. The upside down brass (fetch) did not showed as well in this game. Plus I didn’t get my hands on a vapor or a decay. A second turn Stoneforge into battleskull and other GW guys gave him the victory. (5-6)

G3: with SB. At one point, he had: Teeg and Thalia. And my hand then was: ponder, vapor, ROF and braistorm. I need another vapor or an abrupt here. Ponder allowed me to see a wish. Unfortunately, have no pyrosclasm in the SB. I waited still for a few more turns praying for a vapor or a decay. I did not draw any of it despite my cantripping. (5-7)

[Final Fortune]

You can't time walk with autumns veil.

Obviously, but considering we have a Tropical Island in the SB it seems like Autumn's Veil should have an appication some where.

[Lemnear]

@paeng

Your current verdict after those limited testing?

[davelin]

Played about 7-8 games yesterday against RUG with the -1 Mox +1 Fetch change in the MB. Results were as expected, most of the time the card didn't come up to be a factor, one game where I was glad it was a land and not a Mox and once resolving Ad Naus I wished it was a Mox and not a land so I didn't have to dig as deep. I will probably go with the change this weekend just to help with what has been for me, a difficult matchup overall.

[Pelikanudo]

Related to:

vs. Reanimator
G1: My opening seven was: LED ROF ROF silence petal, brass (upside down) and wish. Good thing it was a brass it this situation. I went for it via Silence protected Diminishing Return but was not so lucky in the new set of seven. I lose to Iona naming Black minutes later. (2-2)


In this situation Bribery in side was the way to go.

[Lemnear]

Related to:

vs. Reanimator
G1: My opening seven was: LED ROF ROF silence petal, brass (upside down) and wish. Good thing it was a brass it this situation. I went for it via Silence protected Diminishing Return but was not so lucky in the new set of seven. I lose to Iona naming Black minutes later. (2-2)


In this situation Bribery in side was the way to go.

Bribery only shines against SneakShow, 12-Post and Reanimator ... and only for Game 1. Shares the Problem of IGG

[Final Fortune]

Bribery only shines against SneakShow, 12-Post and Reanimator ... and only for Game 1. Shares the Problem of IGG

It's good thru' the entire match regardless of whether or not you SB in Xantid Swarm or SB out an Infernal Tutor, and I don't think it's comparable to IGG because it actually improves a bad match up as opposed to an already good match up. If Swan Song becomes popular in either the MD or SB of Show&Tell and Reanimator archetypes, the matchup is only going to get worse. So I don't think it's unreasonable for a single player to metagame against the popularity of those archetypes at his discretion.

Bribery is definitely an tertiary card for the SB, to a certain extent I think it's more comparable to Shattering Spree in the sense that Chalice of the Void decks are either in the metagame or they're not. Considering Xantid Swarm is already a concenssion to the SneakShow and Reanimator archetypes in the SB with very little value in aggro-control or control match ups, I've never really understood why it's "ok" to play 3 bugs but not ok to play a Bribery in a 3 round match.

Saying you can just win with Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns or Past in Flames with a little "know how" is just bull shit compared to Bribery winning on the spot IMO.

[Lemnear]

It's not quite given that S&T decks run any creatures these days. It's still pretty narrow compared to the Xantid which has also it's use against stuff like Meerfolk.

[Final Fortune]

It's not quite given that S&T decks run any creatures these days. It's still pretty narrow compared to the Xantid which has also it's use against stuff like Meerfolk.

Granted, there's also the version that mills the opponent to death if he has no creatures in his deck tho'.

It's so so vs Merfolk depending on whether or not Dismember comes out.

[Bryant Cook]

Took second in a 51 person event at Jupiter Games today, my losses were to Aggro Loam (Me misplaying game one and mulligan to five against Wasteland/Thalia/Chalice in the second game) and then URB Reanimator with Young Pyromancer and Confidants in the finals.

[phazonmutant]

Took second in a 51 person event at Jupiter Games today, my losses were to Aggro Loam (Me misplaying game one and mulligan to five against Wasteland/Thalia/Chalice in the second game) and then URB Reanimator with Young Pyromancer and Confidants in the finals.

Congrats! Do you know if they're going to post decklists? That winning deck sounds pretty interesting.

[Lemnear]

Back from the first meeting of the New Berlin Gent's Club! Amazing event! Thx to Kai gathering all the guys

http://imageshack.us/a/img23/9614/xb7n.jpg

[Fade]

The TES player on stream just missed a kill. He Ad Nauseam'd at 15 and with one black floating, storm 2 and one City of Brass untapped. At 4 life, he had the following relevant cards: Lotus petal, burning wish, dark ritual, rite of flame, infernal tutor, gitaxian probe.

He should have probed (storm 3, 2 life), dark ritual (storm 4, BBB), infernal tutor for rite of flame (storm 5, B), rite of flame (storm 6, 1 life, BRR), rite of flame (storm 7, BRRRR), lotus petal (storm 8, BRRRR), burning wish for tendrils (storm 10)

He didn't see the line of play, flipped burning wish and went to 2 life and then went for a weak tendrils and lost.

When this comes up on the archive, Bryant you should sticky it as an example of what NOT to do.

He had a similar kill even when he went to 2 life. He could've LP(3 - 1B), cast rite(4 - 2R, 1B), tutor for DR (5 - 1R), cast DR with LP (6 - 1R, 3B), DR (7 - 1R, 5B), BW (8 - 4B), and Tendrils (9) when Dredge player was at 18.

[Griselpuff]

Nevermind, my way doesn't work, but yours does. You need BB for Tendrils. But yeah, same basic idea.

[akmalik]

rite of flame (storm 7, BRRRR), lotus petal (storm 8, BRRRR), burning wish for tendrils (storm 10)


Nevermind, my way doesn't work, but yours does. You need BB for Tendrils. But yeah, same basic idea.

Try to sac the petal for the missing black mana?

[Griselpuff]

I'm a genius!

Yeah, good point. :cool:

[phazonmutant]

Back from the first meeting of the New Berlin Gent's Club! Amazing event! Thx to Kai gathering all the guys

Which one are you? Also, don't see Kai in there...is he hiding?

[Lemnear]

Which one are you? Also, don't see Kai in there...is he hiding?

I'm not sure if we talk about the same "Kai" here ;). In the picture you can spot some known writers and players. Won't fit names to faces on the web. Hope you understand...

It's amazing that so many peeps showed up after Kai picked up the "Gent's Club" idea for Berlin :DD




Edit: i am not on the picture ... someone needed to take it.

Edit 2: I admit it was taken by the waiter ... I was just too late to make it to the photoshooting due to work... (-.-)

[JPoJohnson]

So... I didn't end up making notes well enough to make a tournament report, too many things going on at the same time haha. However, I am happy to report the happenings of the weekend. I took a list similar to the one in the original post (I run 2 Duress 1 Therapy MB and 2 Therapy in the Side), but didn't bring the extra Xantid or Tropical Island in the board.

Round 1 Esper Aggro(?)
G1 He casts two brainstorms... That's all I ever see
G2 He casts a Stoneforge Mystic and that's all I ever saw.

Round 2 Goblins
G1 - He aggros me down to 7, I Ad Nauseam and get enough to win.
G2 - Silence leaves him hanging dead on his Mindbreak Traps
Round 3 Esper Stoneblade
G1T1 - Won the roll and off to the races I went.
G2T4 - He FoW a silence and had three cards left. I Probed and the coast was clear.

Round 4 Merfolk
G1T1 - Had the perfect hand. He FoW twice, but still went off.
G2 - He had two Wastelands, two FoW, and a Cursecatcher. I never drew enough and he eventually clocked me out. I think I kept a weak hand here.
G3T2 - A Turn 1 Xantid made for a quick game

Round 5 TES
G1 - He mulligans down to 4 and never has business.
G2 - He mulligans down again and never does anything once more. He used his silence on my turn at one point to walk me, but it didn't help.



So five rounds, ended up going 10-1 in the end. Pretty successful. I'm not sure what are and are not bad match ups, but they all felt very manageable. I think RUG would have made for a hard matchup, glad none were there (:

[Lemnear]

Mull to 4 ... L.O.L.

[JPoJohnson]

After the match with the TES guy, he was telling me about how he took 17th in SCG: St. Louis. I was a little shocked with how aggressively he mulliganed, but I never saw him play otherwise so who knows.

[Lemnear]

After the match with the TES guy, he was telling me about how he took 17th in SCG: St. Louis. I was a little shocked with how aggressively he mulliganed, but I never saw him play otherwise so who knows.

No idea how mulling to 4 is more appealing than slowly working into the match with 7 or 6 cards.



Edit: I'm done giving honest SB advice for battling storm iterations, only receiving arrogant and insulting responses. From now on, "Mindbreak Trap!! A whole playset!!" will be my copy&paste response and I'll start trolling local Meerfolk kids tomorrow, just to tear them appart with Swarm & Silence. Mr. Nice Guy has left the building...

[JPoJohnson]

Haha, I saw the lovely discussion you had over in 12 Post.

[Lemnear]

Haha, I saw the lovely discussion you had over in 12 Post.

It's not only that thread or this site only ... I'm just sick of all the discussions about scenarios from winderwonderland or bullshit like blood Moon out of Miracles' SB as tech to battle TES.

[Ivan Ferreiro]

Hello, I am a new storm player so thank you all for the detailed information you provide about the deck. It is really useful. Some questions I want to share:

- Have most of you switched to a +1 mana source on the main deck or in the sideboard? I am still not a fan of cutting one Chrome mox but it is true that tempo decks get really difficult if they start waste-landing aggressively.

- About the Xantid, is it not enough with Silence? I have not played a lot against Leyline’s decks, but I feel 4 silence + Chain of vapor it is already an awesome build to beat that card. And against Reanimator or Merfolks with 4 Silence + Discard spells should be ok. Although, do you use silence against Reanimator?

- How about cutting the Ill gotten gains from the sideboard? I really like Pyroclasm to have a better match up against Thalia and friends. Also, I want to try 3 Chain of vapor and 2 Abrupt decay (the latter I think is there mostly for Counterbalance and I do not see that many).

- Are there any outs to a first game Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst or something horrible like that?

[Pelikanudo]

It's good thru' the entire match regardless of whether or not you SB in Xantid Swarm or SB out an Infernal Tutor, and I don't think it's comparable to IGG because it actually improves a bad match up as opposed to an already good match up. If Swan Song becomes popular in either the MD or SB of Show&Tell and Reanimator archetypes, the matchup is only going to get worse. So I don't think it's unreasonable for a single player to metagame against the popularity of those archetypes at his discretion.

Bribery is definitely an tertiary card for the SB, to a certain extent I think it's more comparable to Shattering Spree in the sense that Chalice of the Void decks are either in the metagame or they're not. Considering Xantid Swarm is already a concenssion to the SneakShow and Reanimator archetypes in the SB with very little value in aggro-control or control match ups, I've never really understood why it's "ok" to play 3 bugs but not ok to play a Bribery in a 3 round match.

Saying you can just win with Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns or Past in Flames with a little "know how" is just bull shit compared to Bribery winning on the spot IMO.

I agree on most things.

Apart, only diseagree with Bribery in side I do not side out 1 I.T. with bribery in side, is nonsense, we need to be as quick as posible and I.Tutor makes this posible and now B.W!

VS Reanimator, a match up I hate a lot - and I've even seen lists with full of petals! you need speed and Bribery provide us this. it converts B.Wish into Infernal Tutor vs Reanimator, S&Tell and 12Post also..., I noticed that is also is good vs MUD boy! take that Colossus and win!

its just 1 single card in the Side and there is some scenarios in which it is better than a Xantid swarn, one simple example case is in every first match up in which you can not play Xantid.

I still prefer IGG and will test Bribery.
Take a look to the bad matchups apart from MUD and reanimator is one of them, S&T it's so so, and you can still play 3 Xantid.

I understand that moving to -1 IGG,-1 A.D = +1 Xantid, +1Tropical.
But I've been thinking in even moving to just -1A.D =+1Bribery. and even in taking out full set of Xantid for more Therapys and more Decay. Sure Xantid shine vs Sneak and Show but not sometimes vs Reanimator, even Duress effects can be ok vs these kind of archetypes. From my experience with other combo Decks, lets take Burning ANT, playing 7 discard effects plus 3 from side, you are just playing an attrition war, the match up can be even slow. lets take another more radical example: TES mirror, do you side in Xantid in TES mirror? I'm not still sure how good is Xantid vs Reanimator, if they can land an iona on second turn... I've lived games vs reanimator in which you just loose because you need a 3rd turn win and it is too slow, with Xantid and Silence you just will loose but with duresses effects you still have an opportunity to at least slow down his combo.

Well, finish. Bahamut if you are by there, have you considered Bribery? still playing 3B.Wish List?

[Tammit67]

It's not only that thread or this site only ... I'm just sick of all the discussions about scenarios from winterwonderland or bullshit like blood Moon out of Miracles' SB as tech to battle TES.

:( Just because you cannot convince one person does not mean the effort wasn't worthwhile.

Bryant, how do you think the overloaded 12 post sideboard fairs against us?

[Lemnear]

:( Just because you cannot convince one person does not mean the effort wasn't worthwhile.

Bryant, how do you think the overloaded 12 post sideboard fairs against us?

Matt, there's no problem if there's disagree or counter-arguments or even if there a single peeps resistant to advice; it's the complete lack of even adressing points outlined but fling insults instead; it's the ever repeating discussions about the ever same cards (like Beck/Call in the Elves thread or Mindbreak Trap in general); it's the same ever repeating scenarios from winterwonderland to dismember your 96% probability example ...

... I fear, all that crap over the last weekend was enough for me to question myself, why the heck I invest so much time in testing, explaination, etc. if no one cares about stuff outlined in details unless guys like Reid Duke achieve top placings with those.


I doubt that Bryant saw his matches against Jeremiah Rudolph and 12-Post in general as an 35-65 uphill battle...

[Bryant Cook]

I doubt that Bryant saw his matches against Jeremiah Rudolph and 12-Post in general as an 35-65 uphill battle...

People care about results dude. I do too.

But as for your question, it's an insanely good match-up for us. I've played Jeremiah a handful of times, he's beaten me once. Although, it was mostly due to my deck shitting the bed.

I hear there was a TES player on camera yesterday, time to go look it up.

EDIT: UGH... Why am I still watching this? Poor play on both sides.

[Lemnear]

Hello, I am a new storm player so thank you all for the detailed information you provide about the deck. It is really useful. Some questions I want to share:

- Have most of you switched to a +1 mana source on the main deck or in the sideboard? I am still not a fan of cutting one Chrome mox but it is true that tempo decks get really difficult if they start waste-landing aggressively.

aside from the list with -1 Wish +1 Fetch the mana density is the same in all lists MB. Sideboard Tropical or the 4th fetch MB give more stable mana to operate with against taxing effects/discard and to be able to gather lands with cantrips for additional value with Brainstorm. More lands also counters the thread of Wasteland to a minor extend

- About the Xantid, is it not enough with Silence? I have not played a lot against Leyline’s decks, but I feel 4 silence + Chain of vapor it is already an awesome build to beat that card. And against Reanimator or Merfolks with 4 Silence + Discard spells should be ok. Although, do you use silence against Reanimator?

it's not only Leyline. Xantid dismantles extreme counterspell-centric Sideboards containing Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, Swan Song and Spell Pierce which you'll face vs. Meerfolk and Show&Tell variants as well as certain control builds

- How about cutting the Ill gotten gains from the sideboard? I really like Pyroclasm to have a better match up against Thalia and friends. Also, I want to try 3 Chain of vapor and 2 Abrupt decay (the latter I think is there mostly for Counterbalance and I do not see that many).

if you are facing hate-permaments you'll already have Decay + CoV ... there's no need for a 5th slot in the SB not is it in the MB post SB, when you'll usually evaluate the Duress' and Silences for the postboard games aka 4+2 slots (and the reason Bryant already 1 Therapy "preboarded")

- Are there any outs to a first game Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst or something horrible like that?

depending on the actual permament, you can still work your way to Goblins through the taxing (more lands come in Handy) with the +2 Rituals or play your 0cc artifacts/Rituals right into Chalice @1/@0 for some Goblins. If those matchups occur in your meta, just change your SB according to that with a Shattering Spree or such. Don't see a problem altering your 75 to your metagame

[Ivan Ferreiro]

Thanks Lemnear. The last question was just in case I face those matchups, I think my meta is actually pretty sane, (perhaps more towards to a control deck building). Then, does the actual SB looks like this? (probably not for everyone, but the reference one):

-1 Diminishing returns
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
-2 Cabal therapy
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Tendrils of agony
-2 Xantid
-1 Tropical island
-2 Chain of vapor
-2 Abrupt decay
-1 Empty the warrens
-1 Past in flames

How about changing the Tropical Island for a City of brass? I do not own a Tropical. I know the damage is really valuable and still prefer an actual land than a fetchland.

How do you sideboard against Reanimator? Do you use Silence?

[Lemnear]

Thanks Lemnear. The last question was just in case I face those matchups, I think my meta is actually pretty sane, (perhaps more towards to a control deck building). Then, does the actual SB looks like this? (probably not for everyone, but the reference one):

-1 Diminishing returns
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
-2 Cabal therapy
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Tendrils of agony
-2 Xantid
-1 Tropical island
-2 Chain of vapor
-2 Abrupt decay
-1 Empty the warrens
-1 Past in flames

How about changing the Tropical Island for a City of brass? I do not own a Tropical. I know the damage is really valuable and still prefer an actual land than a fetchland.

How do you sideboard against Reanimator? Do you use Silence?

You'd be surprised how good Xantid is as a 3-off against the current meta, so I would not pass on that one.

For your 2 questions: for the matchups which you may want the additional land for, I expect a lot of cantripping and fighting through defense, ergo I expect lands to be tapped a few times which would become annoying if the land you have to use for that is exactly the City you intend to use instead of the Tropical, but that is a minor issue through variance. More important however is, that Tropical is a Virtual 4-off in Bryant's suggested list (through fetchlands) and therefore you have a whole playset more green manasources available to cast Xantid.

"I" do keep Silence in because unless they reanimate turn 2 Iona, Silence and Xantids let you ignore their top tier target (Griselbrand) and all their drawn cards.

[Ivan Ferreiro]

Ok, cool. Thanks again. I am going to try as you said this friday on a sanctioned event (hope someone lend me a Tropical). I'll post the results!

[Lemnear]

Ya welcome :)

[Lemnear]

After finally knowing what nasty, Secret SB tech Carsten Kotter will bring to BoM I finally cut the Pyroclasm in the SB for a super Secret tech myself.

No one will see this one coming ... Muahahahaha

[Pelikanudo]

After finally knowing what nasty, Secret SB tech Carsten Kotter will bring to BoM I finally cut the Pyroclasm in the SB for a super Secret tech myself.

No one will see this one coming ... Muahahahaha

Sure it is Bribery, you kept it very secretly....
Joke.

[Lemnear]

Sure it is Bribery, you kept it very secretly....
Joke.

It's not Bribery. It's however a card that immediately kills most combo decks in the format..

[Pelikanudo]

It's not Bribery. It's however a card that immediately kills most combo decks in the format..

Haunting Echoes, Cranial Estraction, the Cranial Extraction with GraveStorm????
Please let me know!

[P-E]

Sadistic sacrament ahah

[Lemnear]

It will be epic

;)

[Shawon]

It will be epic

;)

Epic Experiment?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It will be epic

;)

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/wallpapers/Wallpaper_EtherswornCanonist_800x600.jpg

[oSeabass]

Merfolk. Seems like a tough match to me. Daze, Force, maybe Stifle, Vialed in Silvergil Adept to draw cards, Standstill to draw cards, Vialed in Cursecatcher for another Daze effect, Spell Pierce. Unless you turn 1-2 them and see a clear path with Probe, this seems rough. They will continually add to the board, making our AN weaker and have a very tough clock (with no blockers to stop them). They also are strong against the Goblin plan unless you go bonkers, since they just have a ton of blockers in a few turns. I feel like the best turn is turn 1 blind on the play... they have to have FoW then. If not, they don't have an Island for Daze, mana for Pierce, etc.

Thoughts?

[Tammit67]

It will be epic

;)

EPIC (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=+[epic])

Yeah not seeing it

[Lemnear]

Merfolk. Seems like a tough match to me. Daze, Force, maybe Stifle, Vialed in Silvergil Adept to draw cards, Standstill to draw cards, Vialed in Cursecatcher for another Daze effect, Spell Pierce. Unless you turn 1-2 them and see a clear path with Probe, this seems rough. They will continually add to the board, making our AN weaker and have a very tough clock (with no blockers to stop them). They also are strong against the Goblin plan unless you go bonkers, since they just have a ton of blockers in a few turns. I feel like the best turn is turn 1 blind on the play... they have to have FoW then. If not, they don't have an Island for Daze, mana for Pierce, etc.

Thoughts?

Xantid Swarm? Silence? Natural Spellchain via 8 vs. 7 cards?

[Tammit67]

Merfolk. Seems like a tough match to me. Daze, Force, maybe Stifle, Vialed in Silvergil Adept to draw cards, Standstill to draw cards, Vialed in Cursecatcher for another Daze effect, Spell Pierce. Unless you turn 1-2 them and see a clear path with Probe, this seems rough. They will continually add to the board, making our AN weaker and have a very tough clock (with no blockers to stop them). They also are strong against the Goblin plan unless you go bonkers, since they just have a ton of blockers in a few turns. I feel like the best turn is turn 1 blind on the play... they have to have FoW then. If not, they don't have an Island for Daze, mana for Pierce, etc.

Thoughts?

With their plethora of ways to disrupt you and potential to present a quick clock, it is true it seems like merfolk is a good foil for combo. However, realize that it is quite difficult for them to have both a clock and multiple protection spells and that their draws are coming to them unfiltered by cantrips (meaning less likely they will have additional copies as opposed to say delver). Multiple wastelands backed with vial and cursecatcher/adept and lords spell easy death but at the same time they had to have had the nuts to also have force here. Sometimes you just have to go for it blind and play the odds.

Postboard, obviously swarm is the bee's knees. The matchup will remain relatively the same, however, and over the course of several matches you'll get the chance to witness how inconsistent their draws can be. If you can slog through their initial 7-8 cards, you should be able to make it through.

[oSeabass]

Xantid Swarm? Silence? Natural Spellchain via 8 vs. 7 cards?

Silence cracks Standstill which gives them more chance to draw into hate at instant speed (worse vs discard Sorc. like Therapy and Duress).
Xantid Swarm doesn't stop Cursecatcher or stop Standstill from finding Cursecatcher.

Really, to me it seems like the problem isn't the spells (Daze, FoW, Pierce). It is the non spell hate they can have on the field like Curse, or Vial into Curse. Do these warrant bringing in Abrupt Decay to hit Vial, or hit Catcher before a combo? Take out Therapy and Duress, bring in Swarms for spells, and AD for the permanent?

[Lemnear]

Silence cracks Standstill which gives them more chance to draw into hate at instant speed (worse vs discard Sorc. like Therapy and Duress).
Xantid Swarm doesn't stop Cursecatcher or stop Standstill from finding Cursecatcher.

Really, to me it seems like the problem isn't the spells (Daze, FoW, Pierce). It is the non spell hate they can have on the field like Curse, or Vial into Curse. Do these warrant bringing in Abrupt Decay to hit Vial, or hit Catcher before a combo? Take out Therapy and Duress, bring in Swarms for spells, and AD for the permanent?

What's the Problem to play around a possible Daze-with-legs?? Do you know that you best crack their Standstill in their eot with Brainstorm?

[oSeabass]

With their plethora of ways to disrupt you and potential to present a quick clock, it is true it seems like merfolk is a good foil for combo. However, realize that it is quite difficult for them to have both a clock and multiple protection spells and that their draws are coming to them unfiltered by cantrips (meaning less likely they will have additional copies as opposed to say delver). Multiple wastelands backed with vial and cursecatcher/adept and lords spell easy death but at the same time they had to have had the nuts to also have force here. Sometimes you just have to go for it blind and play the odds.

Postboard, obviously swarm is the bee's knees. The matchup will remain relatively the same, however, and over the course of several matches you'll get the chance to witness how inconsistent their draws can be. If you can slog through their initial 7-8 cards, you should be able to make it through.

Thanks for this. It makes sense that they are drawing blind where I have filtering. I think my problem is against a deck I know runs counterspells (in any number, let alone the large number Fish runs), I try and find the perfect setup with a Silence. I think playing the match a lot more will help me learn also that a lot of the counters are soft (Daze, Pierce, Cursecatcher), and the only real issue is a Flusterstorm out of the board, or a FoW. I think with enough mana spells I could force my way through (pun not intended) all of their soft disruption with proper sequencing.

[davelin]

With their plethora of ways to disrupt you and potential to present a quick clock, it is true it seems like merfolk is a good foil for combo. However, realize that it is quite difficult for them to have both a clock and multiple protection spells and that their draws are coming to them unfiltered by cantrips (meaning less likely they will have additional copies as opposed to say delver). Multiple wastelands backed with vial and cursecatcher/adept and lords spell easy death but at the same time they had to have had the nuts to also have force here. Sometimes you just have to go for it blind and play the odds.

Postboard, obviously swarm is the bee's knees. The matchup will remain relatively the same, however, and over the course of several matches you'll get the chance to witness how inconsistent their draws can be. If you can slog through their initial 7-8 cards, you should be able to make it through.

This is spot on. Not completely experienced players may put their vial on 2 counters in order to vial in lords instead of 1 for Cursecatcher.

[JPoJohnson]

Order of spells matters when you're going to go off and know what's in their hand as well. Try to play spells that look important, but actually aren't (They had a single FoW and allowed my rituals to go off and I cast a Burning Wish which they countered and then I Infernal Tutored for the victory. It's obviously not always that easy, but it happens).


EPIC (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=+[epic])

Yeah not seeing it

It's obviously Eternal Dominion :tongue:

[Lemnear]

There was no hint guys ;p

[JPoJohnson]

There was no hint guys ;p

Haha, I figured as much. It was just fun to run with it.


If I had to actually guess... I would guess it would potentially be on the following list:


Sadistic Sacrament
Cranial Extraction
Bitter Ordeal
Head Games
Memoricide


Not really... I almost hope its one of these ones because it would be interesting to see how it would play out. I'm not sure I would run any of these, but Head Games would be freaking hilarious to resolve against someone.

[Jaycounet]

Haha, I figured as much. It was just fun to run with it.


If I had to actually guess... I would guess it would potentially be on the following list:


Sadistic Sacrament
Cranial Extraction
Bitter Ordeal
Head Games
Memoricide


Not really... I almost hope its one of these ones because it would be interesting to see how it would play out. I'm not sure I would run any of these, but Head Games would be freaking hilarious to resolve against someone.

i was thinking about sadistic sacrament too

[JPoJohnson]

i was thinking about sadistic sacrament too

It's the only one from the list i would even consider running at all.

[Lemnear]

Totally wrong guys. "It" doesn't prevent opponents kills, it kills by itself. Only 4 peeps know about the card ... it's still in the testing grid and I already had some rage-quits online with Heavy insults :)

Needs moar testing and maybe even some "stagetime" in tourneys before BoM. Combo will not be revealed till testing is finished or 2 fellow users here can't keep that Secret ;D

[Lejay]

I guess it's Telemin Performance.

[Tom T]

I was searching gatherer for "reveal creature" haha. Spot on lejay


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Acclimation]

I guess it's Telemin Performance.

I'm seconding that one, although the mana cost has me second guessing myself.

[Valtrix]

5 mana is no harder to cast than an ad nauseum. Really not that bad at all.

[Deviruchi]

I guess it's Telemin Performance.

Be prepared guys. Next level him by adding Phage the Untouchable to your SB.

[Lemnear]

Be prepared guys. Next level him by adding Phage the Untouchable to your SB.

Haha ... awesome. May board in Progenitus or Emrakul to prevent milling? ... oh wait!

[Acclimation]

5 mana is no harder to cast than an ad nauseum. Really not that bad at all.

Let me rephrase- the Double Blue. Ad Nauseum has color costs easily hit by rituals, whereas the double blue can be tricky to hit. It's not impossible, the mana base in TES can definitely do it, but sometimes you could be bottlenecked.

[Lemnear]

Let me rephrase- the Double Blue. Ad Nauseum has color costs easily hit by rituals, whereas the double blue can be tricky to hit. It's not impossible, the mana base in TES can definitely do it, but sometimes you could be bottlenecked.

See LED & Diminishing Returns

[Jaycounet]

See LED & Diminishing Returns

LED is a must have in this situation and sometimes it never happen ^^

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wait, so it's a BW target? Hm. Then I guess that my guess of Cannonist was wrong...

[Lemnear]

LED is a must have in this situation and sometimes it never happen ^^

*shrug* if you can't drain UU off lands, LED's, Petals and Moxen, things are quite complicated for SB Engines anyways...



Edit: still no comment about the mysterious hidden tech till testing is finished

[P-E]

So the secret tech is drain power ahah could be good by turn 10 against control

[Pelikanudo]

I guess it's Telemin Performance.


Good to remember this card....

I'd like to ask...

I'm testing Bribery and it is far superior vs Reanimator.deck because we choose the creature however it is better vs OmniTell because if you do not find the creature you will just win and same is applicable to ANT, TES, DD and H.Tide.

So, if any has been testing what would you choose Bribery or T. Performance if you suspect there will be Reanimator and S&T mainly.

is T.Performance really effective vs Reanimator? has anybody tested this card?

[Lemnear]

Good to remember this card....

I'd like to ask...

I'm testing Bribery and it is far superior vs Reanimator.deck because we choose the creature however it is better vs OmniTell because if you do not find the creature you will just win and same is applicable to ANT, TES, DD and H.Tide.

So, if any has been testing what would you choose Bribery or T. Performance if you suspect there will be Reanimator and S&T mainly.

is T.Performance really effective vs Reanimator? has anybody tested this card?

You ask the wrong question. It's not "how" good TP is but "how often". TP has 3-4 times more application than Bribery and I'm not greedy ... I'm fine taking Iona, Tidesprout , Jin Gitaxias or an Eldrazi instead of Griselbrand

[lithiux]

I'm putting my money on Mons's Goblin Raiders as the powerful mystery card.

[oSeabass]

Telemin Performance looks pretty fun :)

Could create some awkward spots for the mirror match after Game 1 wins with it... does the opponent bring in a Xantid Swarm to trigger this? Mind games :cool:

[Megadeus]

See I always thought Mind Funeral might be a card to play to beat belcher, oops all spells :p

Telemin Performance seems WAY better to beat the non dude decks.

[Holly]

I wouldn't cast it vs Belcher, you'll get a Grey Ogre (Spirit Guides). Neither would I cast it vs "Oops all Spells (what a crappy name)".. you'll get a Flying Man (Narcamoeba) or something else as useful.

[Asthereal]

See I always thought Mind Funeral might be a card to play to beat belcher, oops all spells :p

Telemin Performance seems WAY better to beat the non dude decks.
Am I allowed to laugh in your face if you cast Telemin Performance on a Belcher dude?
"Sure, you can have my Spirit Guide! Good luck with that." :wink:

[Lemnear]

Next time i keep my mouth shut. Would hate it if my BoM opponents are suddenly prepared.

[oSeabass]

Next time i keep my mouth shut. Would hate it if my BoM opponents are suddenly prepared.

You actually haven't confirmed or denied it... someone else in the forum guessed it and we all saw how :cool: it was. You could still be on super secret tech... *cough* Force Spike *cough*.

[Lemnear]

You actually haven't confirmed or denied it... someone else in the forum guessed it and we all saw how :cool: it was. You could still be on super secret tech... *cough* Force Spike *cough*.

There's not much to deny I fear. I spread too many hints and Lejay's a cunning wiz. ;)

[Sloshthedark]

Next time i keep my mouth shut. Would hate it if my BoM opponents are suddenly prepared.

Well it's nothing new and not widely played, TES gets just minor tweaks time to time and players stay true to the "optimal list", still good g1 vs Ant vs. most S&T and decent both games vs. Griselbrand.dec, just readers of this forum will recognize you by your LED and put a swarm in in the mirror... My xp with the card has been positive so far (played TES june-september) and it's fun

[Lemnear]

If I play those LED's is the local Judges decision and if they allow me to play those. There a more than enough players locally that have never seen those Diamonds before, nor have a clue who I am. It's pretty nice that no one reconizes my name or face either. It's a big plus for my private biz if you google my name and it's not attached to Magic or other wierd activities. :)

[Pelikanudo]

You ask the wrong question. It's not "how" good TP is but "how often". TP has 3-4 times more application than Bribery and I'm not greedy ... I'm fine taking Iona, Tidesprout , Jin Gitaxias or an Eldrazi instead of Griselbrand

I agree, but vs those Sneak&Show or these new archetypes which plays Emrakul and are red, I would hate this card If by chance I take an Ape instead...
Not bad card TM.. really not bad card...

[Lemnear]

I agree, but vs those Sneak&Show or these new archetypes which plays Emrakul and are red, I would hate this card If by chance I take an Ape instead...
Not bad card TM.. really not bad card...

If your opponent might run Simian Spirit Guide instead of Lotus Petals, don't cast TP.

You won't win 2 games against the same opponent with TP. Peeps aren't dumb. Storm will board at least 1 Swarm/Bob if you kill them game 1 with tp

[lemariont]

Last game losed vs High Tide. The Telemin Performance reveals a cloud odd faries :eek:

[Lemnear]

Last game losed vs High Tide. The Telemin Performance reveals a cloud odd faries :eek:

Doesn't tell me a lot. G1/2/3? Did you know it was Snap-Tide?

[JPoJohnson]

Maybe I'm missing it with this card, but I feel like if you have a Burning Wish and 5 mana available, that you should be able to win via another route. I feel like the scenarios where you would play this card would be far more limited than any other win condition/storm engine. Is the purpose of the card simply to mess with people and get them to sideboard in a manner to dilute their deck? :confused:

[Lemnear]

Maybe I'm missing it with this card, but I feel like if you have a Burning Wish and 5 mana available, that you should be able to win via another route. I feel like the scenarios where you would play this card would be far more limited than any other win condition/storm engine. Is the purpose of the card simply to mess with people and get them to sideboard in a manner to dilute their deck? :confused:

What do YOU do with 5 mana post wish in the combo mirror? EtW might be too slow, PIF requires a lot of Rituals in the yard which is unlikely to Achieve in time, which leaves you with the Diminishing Returns-Roulette against decks like SneakShow, OmniTell, High Tide ANT, TES and Reanimator which might regain FoW, Daze, Flusterstorm and other shit by casting DR unless you have the nuts of being able to Silence first. Afterwards you have only limited mana and cards to win (unless you have the nuts again).

Because we don't always have the insane amount of mana and a specific card combination required for DR or Wish->Infernal->AN against the matchups in question, I thought about sidestepping the variance here and test TP as a cheap way to win and pushing our % against other combo decks.

[JPoJohnson]

Makes perfect sense, thanks (:

The only combo mirror I've played was exactly TES, so I don't have a lot of experience against the other combo decks. I appreciate the patience and thorough answer!

[Lemnear]

Makes perfect sense, thanks (:

The only combo mirror I've played was exactly TES, so I don't have a lot of experience against the other combo decks. I appreciate the patience and thorough answer!

Ya Welcome! :)

Berlin is combo-country ... that's why I thought about it

[Ivan Ferreiro]

What do you think about Mana maze (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Mana+Maze) as a sideboard option against storm combo (deck here (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11937&iddeck=87418))? Seems pretty weak...

[Lemnear]

What do you think about Mana maze (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Mana+Maze) as a sideboard option against storm combo (deck here (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11937&iddeck=87418))? Seems pretty week...

It's just one of many, many possible annoying cards for storm. I don't know why this should get the nod over Thoughtseize in this deck, which is for more flexible in the meta.

[lemariont]

Doesn't tell me a lot. G1/2/3? Did you know it was Snap-Tide?
Was in G1, but maybe I was too impulsive. ...

[Lemnear]

Why testing on Cockatrice sux


Opp: Misty Rainforest -> Tropical Island, Ponder, Looks top 3 cards, "What are you playing?".

Me: I look at my hand, "UWR Tempo. Why?"

Opp: "doesn't matter", keeps top 3, draws, pass

Me: draw, Flooded Strand -> Volcanic, Ponder, like what I see, draw, pass

Opp: draw, think, drop Volcanic, think, tap both to summon Delver + Goose, pass

Me: draw, G.Probe, see Spell Snare + Spell Pierce + Lightning Bolt, "lol"

Opp: "yeah, pretty good ^^"

Me: draw card for the G.Probe, make 14 Goblins

Opp: "asshole"

-PLAYER LOST-

No idea what's going on with those guys...

[JPoJohnson]

You forgot the next step:

Opp: Proceeds to drop his creatures into play and then draws several cards then ragequit.

[Sinkhole]

I had played several matches against RUG Delver and it really was slighly frustrating, my winning rate against them was arround 30 %, I think. Often it took too much time to find discard over burning wish for cleanning up their hand and go off with Ad Nauseam, because I had gotten too much pain from their fast clocks. Also often I haven`t enough or the right mana for going off protected, due to the fact, that my manabase had digisted the wasteland + stifle meal. And to top it all I have drawn really bad.

Yes I am new with palying TES, so I made some missplays, but it seems that Canadian is one of our toughest machtups, or isn´t it? So any general advice, how to change playstyle against RUG Delver? Should I play more aggressive and/ or gamble sometimes, I mean going off unprotected, if my opponent holds only 3 - 4 cards in hand?

It all looks so easy in Bryant`s playstreams, but it isn`t when I do :tongue: But I`ll keep up storming, even if it`s sometimes really frustrating :cool:

Greetz

[P-E]

and what about cocktrice matches agfainst Post ? ^^

[davelin]

I had played several matches against RUG Delver and it really was slighly frustrating, my winning rate against them was arround 30 %, I think. Often it took too much time to find discard over burning wish for cleanning up their hand and go off with Ad Nauseam, because I had gotten too much pain from their fast clocks. Also often I haven`t enough or the right mana for going off protected, due to the fact, that my manabase had digisted the wasteland + stifle meal. And to top it all I have drawn really bad.

Yes I am new with palying TES, so I made some missplays, but it seems that Canadian is one of our toughest machtups, or isn´t it? So any general advice, how to change playstyle against RUG Delver? Should I play more aggressive and/ or gamble sometimes, I mean going off unprotected, if my opponent holds only 3 - 4 cards in hand?

It all looks so easy in Bryant`s playstreams, but it isn`t when I do :tongue: But I`ll keep up storming, even if it`s sometimes really frustrating :cool:

Greetz

Agreed this is probably one of the most commonly frustrating matchups out there. I find the RUG matchup more difficult than the BUG or UWR variations myself but that may just be sample size/variance. A few things to note -

- Empty is probably your primary wincon especially game 1 pre-SB. With a possible quick clock and reach with their bolts, resolving a successful Ad Nauseum may be difficult
- Although the early Delver flip is the primary way they can put early pressure on us, it's not the likely scenario. Be patient and find your spot.
- With three discard spells and four probes, you'll hopefully have enough information on when to go off. Save those probes for those spots and for storm esp on the EtW path
- Sequence your ritual effects correctly, Rites before Dark Rituals since Rituals can pay for Daze/Pierce
- Play around those Wastes and Stifles on your fetches. Fetching on your turn can be a way to generate storm at their expense!

Good luck!

[Sinkhole]

Thanks davelin!

I haven`t played against U/W/R Delver so far, but against BUG and it`s defenitly a lot easier, than against RUG!
When I think of the played matches, I have casted my Probes often too early, so like you said it might be a good
choice for saving them, until I can go off. I could be a turn faster when I am too short on mana for going of save,
casting Probe and maybe sometimes I am lucky and seeing no Counter or Daze only, where I can play arround.

[Wombo Combo]

Why testing on Cockatrice sux



No idea what's going on with those guys...

Label the game as "Competitive". Also, add people like this to your ignore list. It's the price you pay for playing against anyone that can install it. The best rager I had was someone loaded up 43lands.dec. He immediately conceded the game when I cast GP, and then loaded up miracles. lol

[Lemnear]

I had played several matches against RUG Delver and it really was slighly frustrating, my winning rate against them was arround 30 %, I think. Often it took too much time to find discard over burning wish for cleanning up their hand and go off with Ad Nauseam, because I had gotten too much pain from their fast clocks. Also often I haven`t enough or the right mana for going off protected, due to the fact, that my manabase had digisted the wasteland + stifle meal. And to top it all I have drawn really bad.

Yes I am new with palying TES, so I made some missplays, but it seems that Canadian is one of our toughest machtups, or isn´t it? So any general advice, how to change playstyle against RUG Delver? Should I play more aggressive and/ or gamble sometimes, I mean going off unprotected, if my opponent holds only 3 - 4 cards in hand?

It all looks so easy in Bryant`s playstreams, but it isn`t when I do :tongue: But I`ll keep up storming, even if it`s sometimes really frustrating :cool:

Greetz

It isn't that bad. Read the reports in my signature. It's a common matchup there.


and what about cocktrice matches agfainst Post ? ^^

Jerry doesn't seem to be interrested in playing anymore ...^^

[davelin]

Thanks davelin!

I haven`t played against U/W/R Delver so far, but against BUG and it`s defenitly a lot easier, than against RUG!
When I think of the played matches, I have casted my Probes often too early, so like you said it might be a good
choice for saving them, until I can go off. I could be a turn faster when I am too short on mana for going of save,
casting Probe and maybe sometimes I am lucky and seeing no Counter or Daze only, where I can play arround.

It's a matchup where you have to continually think of what could the opponent be holding and what are your options. Say he taps out for a first turn Delver or Ponder, you have to think he either has a Daze and/or FoW, does your hand beat that if they do? If you wait until then untap, then they could hold up for a Pierce or a Stifle, do you have options in that case?

[Final Fortune]

I'm aware that life loss isn't encouraged in Ad Nauseam Combo, but for the people using the 4 Silence, 2 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy set up, have you ever tried replacing the 2 Duress with 2 Thought Seize for the Maverick, Death&Taxes and Goblins/w match ups so you can drop the extra copies of Cabal Therapy from your SB?

[Lemnear]

I'm aware that life loss isn't encouraged in Ad Nauseam Combo, but for the people using the 4 Silence, 2 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy set up, have you ever tried replacing the 2 Duress with 2 Thought Seize for the Maverick, Death&Taxes and Goblins/w match ups so you can drop the extra copies of Cabal Therapy from your SB?

Therapies are able to 1-for-2 or 1-for-3 in certain situations which is an aspect of battling other Ritual-decks and defensive counter strategies. I agree that Thoughtseize is a golden bullet and always hit but between Probes, Fetches and Cities, Thoughtseize is horrible against anything that might add pressure and easily make Ad Nauseam worse once you have to fight though defense (Imagine being forced to strip a Stifle post-AN).

The only possible evolution to the protection-suit in the forseeing future is playing 3 Therapy Main and 1 SB, cutting the Duress' and trying to force your Probes in every Game 1 and next-level your skill to estimate the right calls for blind-Therapies according to the gamestate.

[Final Fortune]

Therapies are able to 1-for-2 or 1-for-3 in certain situations which is an aspect of battling other Ritual-decks and defensive counter strategies. I agree that Thoughtseize is a golden bullet and always hit but between Probes, Fetches and Cities, Thoughtseize is horrible against anything that might add pressure and easily make Ad Nauseam worse once you have to fight though defense (Imagine being forced to strip a Stifle post-AN).

The only possible evolution to the protection-suit in the forseeing future is playing 3 Therapy Main and 1 SB, cutting the Duress' and trying to force your Probes in every Game 1 and next-level your skill to estimate the right calls for blind-Therapies according to the gamestate.

Not certain I agree, Thoughtseize isn't worse than Duress vs aggressive decks because in the event the opponent doesn't have disruption and does have a clock Thoughtseize discards the clock, I've won games where discarding a Goblin Lackey while losing my land to a Wasteland allowed me to recover where a Duress wouldn't etc. and while there is a lot of aggregate damage between Fetchlands, City of Brass, Gitaxian Probe and presumably Thoughtseize, I don't think it will cause as many statistical losses to Ad Nauseam as Duress will cause situational losses to hate bears and Vendillion Clique and the extrac SB Cabal Therapy could be put to better use as something else.

Eh, I don't know about 3 Cabal Therapy MD, the problem with Cabal Therapy in TES compared to ANT is that you don't plan to cantrip chain for your first two turns where not being able to blind discard any spell vs an unknown opponent is of little concern. TES is trying to go off T2 pretty regular, so the first game of a match where you win the coin flip and stare at Cabal Therapy you're pretty much always going to name Force of Will, pass the majority of the time and then possibly get hit with a Thoughtseize that you shouldn't have otherwise. Furthermore, the smarter or more diverse players and their counter suites get, the more you're going to run into statistical unknowns like what their exact distribution of Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Spell Snare and Stifle is etc.

I think B, discard any non land card is a bit underrated here, mainly for being more mana efficient and more guaranteed than anything else. I'm kind of tempted just to run 3 Thoughtseize, 4 City of Brass and 4 Gitaxian Probe just to see how bad the life loss really is whenever I Ad Nauseam compared to how having a anti hate bear/Clique discard and more stable, long term manabase is. Ad Nauseam is like only about a third of my wins as a whole, so I kind of question the idea that every card has to avoid self inflicting minor amounts of damage when it's strictly worse than the alternatives available.

I think the disruption is really the only place the deck can afford to radically tinker, maybe you're right tho' and we should all just be slow rolling the opponent's with a fist full of Silence and Cabal Therapy. It's probably going to be meta dependant, something to bother testing anyway.

[davelin]

Not certain I agree, Thoughtseize isn't worse than Duress vs aggressive decks because in the event the opponent doesn't have disruption and does have a clock Thoughtseize discards the clock, I've won games where discarding a Goblin Lackey while losing my land to a Wasteland allowed me to recover where a Duress wouldn't etc. and while there is a lot of aggregate damage between Fetchlands, City of Brass, Gitaxian Probe and presumably Thoughtseize, I don't think it will cause as many statistical losses to Ad Nauseam as Duress will cause situational losses to hate bears and Vendillion Clique and the extrac SB Cabal Therapy could be put to better use as something else.

Eh, I don't know about 3 Cabal Therapy MD, the problem with Cabal Therapy in TES compared to ANT is that you don't plan to cantrip chain for your first two turns where not being able to blind discard any spell vs an unknown opponent is of little concern. TES is trying to go off T2 pretty regular, so the first game of a match where you win the coin flip and stare at Cabal Therapy you're pretty much always going to name Force of Will, pass the majority of the time and then possibly get hit with a Thoughtseize that you shouldn't have otherwise. Furthermore, the smarter or more diverse players and their counter suites get, the more you're going to run into statistical unknowns like what their exact distribution of Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Spell Snare and Stifle is etc.

I think B, discard any non land card is a bit underrated here, mainly for being more mana efficient and more guaranteed than anything else. I'm kind of tempted just to run 3 Thoughtseize, 4 City of Brass and 4 Gitaxian Probe just to see how bad the life loss really is whenever I Ad Nauseam compared to how having a anti hate bear/Clique discard and more stable, long term manabase is. Ad Nauseam is like only about a third of my wins as a whole, so I kind of question the idea that every card has to avoid self inflicting minor amounts of damage when it's strictly worse than the alternatives available.

I think the disruption is really the only place the deck can afford to radically tinker, maybe you're right tho' and we should all just be slow rolling the opponent's with a fist full of Silence and Cabal Therapy. It's probably going to be meta dependant, something to bother testing anyway.

Yes Thoughtseize is probably better against the aggressive decks but those are the decks we are already beating on a consistent basis. It's not really needed against Goblins, that's already a very strong matchup for us. The extra 2 damage we inflict about ourselves really hurts in MUs such as RUG or UWR delver where they have the reach if we let ourselves get low on life.

T'Seize is probably preferred against decks sporting say 4x Thalias, but what percentage of the metagame do those make? Not very much IMO.

[Lemnear]

It's strange to argue for Thoughtseize via creatures. This deck is made to beat creature decks (and casting a blind-Duress off your only IMP (maybe even over a cantrip) is a wacky play considering the omnipresence of Wasteland), so the Lackey example is a misleading cornercase imo. The only 1,5 decks which run's creatures MB which may bother you are Maverick and Goblins (both Thalia). I don't think the benefit of hitting those G1 outweights all the random damage off Thoughtseize.

[Final Fortune]

It's strange to argue for Thoughtseize via creatures. This deck is made to beat creature decks (and casting a blind-Duress off your only IMP (maybe even over a cantrip) is a wacky play considering the omnipresence of Wasteland), so the Lackey example is a misleading cornercase imo. The only 1,5 decks which run's creatures MB which may bother you are Maverick and Goblins (both Thalia). I don't think the benefit of hitting those G1 outweights all the random damage off Thoughtseize.

It was just one example, my primary concern is Vendillion Clique, especially in Miracles, where Duress is drawing dead.

I tend to blind Duress off my first land drop pretty religiously vs unknown.

[Lemnear]

It was just one example, my primary concern is Vendillion Clique, especially in Miracles, where Duress is drawing dead.

I tend to blind Duress off my first land drop pretty religiously vs unknown.

Hmmm ... heared discarding Counterbalance is still pretty good. It's not like you can't Silence against Clique which is a 3cc spell too (ergo possibly too slow)

I keep my discard spells pretty much till I plan to go off (aside combo matchups, of course) and use my early resources to cantrip into mana and Biz

[Ivan Ferreiro]

I lost the other day against goblins because a blind cabal therapy naming Thalia and opponent having Canonist (it was game three and I knew about the two kind of hate). But still will not change to main Thoughtseize. Two damage is a lot and we need Ad Nauseam to be as high percentage of autowins when cast.

The card I dont really get is Grapeshot. In that game against goblins i had to go burning wish to Grapeshot (no chain of vapor or abrupt decay drawn) and it was too late (too many goblins already). Pyroclasm would have been a win game at that point. I dont know if we need both Tendrils and Grapeshot. When do you actually use Grapeshot?

Also have to say Xantid is MVP.

[Lemnear]

I lost the other day against goblins because a blind cabal therapy naming Thalia and opponent having Canonist (it was game three and I knew about the two kind of hate). But still will not change to main Thoughtseize. Two damage is a lot and we need Ad Nauseam to be as high percentage of autowins when cast.

The card I dont really get is Grapeshot. In that game against goblins i had to go burning wish to Grapeshot (no chain of vapor or abrupt decay drawn) and it was too late (too many goblins already). Pyroclasm would have been a win game at that point. I dont know if we need both Tendrils and Grapeshot. When do you actually use Grapeshot?

Also have to say Xantid is MVP.

The way you do. It's to wipe boards and kill even bigger creatures than Pyroclasm could. If grapseshot can't wipe the board anymore, you'll have to pick DR in most cases instead. Pyroclasm was in my board for Cannonist and Thalia because GS can get very ugly with those out, but it's ugly to have 2 sweepers in your board. If however this problem occur more often for you and still dislike GS, may test with Clasm in that spot instead.

[Megadeus]

Ive killed many players after I hit them down to like 4 with empty tokens before they stabilized with grapeshot to finish the game. I would never cut it.

[Sinkhole]

It's a matchup where you have to continually think of what could the opponent be holding and what are your options. Say he taps out for a first turn Delver or Ponder, you have to think he either has a Daze and/or FoW, does your hand beat that if they do? If you wait until then untap, then they could hold up for a Pierce or a Stifle, do you have options in that case?

So you mean in this matchup it`s our best bet to going off, as soon as possible instead of waiting, even you only can create Storm 5 - 6 for goblins, for example? I think that was one of my biggest mistakes I had made, waiting too long for sunnier times, instead of go into the combo for tokens.

On Thoughtseize: I wouldn`t run it main, because it`s only makes matchups better, which are already positive and weakens us against RUG, URG Delver and other variants, where every lifepoint is needed.

[davelin]

So you mean in this matchup it`s our best bet to going off, as soon as possible instead of waiting, even you only can create Storm 5 - 6 for goblins, for example? I think that was one of my biggest mistakes I had made, waiting too long for sunnier times, instead of go into the combo for tokens.

On Thoughtseize: I wouldn`t run it main, because it`s only makes matchups better, which are already positive and weakens us against RUG, URG Delver and other variants, where every lifepoint is needed.

An early 10-12 goblins is perfectly fine in this matchup (as well as others).

[Lemnear]

Ive killed many players after I hit them down to like 4 with empty tokens before they stabilized with grapeshot to finish the game. I would never cut it.

I did this a lot, but in all honest, you can leach those remaining life with Tendrils in most cases too. I remind: IGG was once a holy cow and now it's gone. If the creatures you may want to wipe with Grapeshot are now pretty much immune to storm as a mechanic, it's not unheared off to discuss the slot.

[Bryant Cook]

I did this a lot, but in all honest, you can leach those remaining life with Tendrils in most cases too. I remind: IGG was once a holy cow and now it's gone. If the creatures you may want to wipe with Grapeshot are now pretty much immune to storm as a mechanic, it's not unheared off to discuss the slot.

I win with Grapeshot more than people think. Especially because of awkward Past in Flames shenanigans where you have the storm but not the perfect mana - it actually happened on Thursday for me. It won't be leaving my sideboard anytime soon. Last weekend at Jupiter, I used Grapeshot to kill an entire Elves players board minus his only land (a Cradle) one of the creatures was a Craterhoof.

I won't lie, I've considered playing 2 Thoughtseize/1 Therapy main deck over Duress. It's an idea that I've been toying with, haven't tested it in a long time though.

[Lemnear]

I win with Grapeshot more than people think. Especially because of awkward Past in Flames shenanigans where you have the storm but not the perfect mana - it actually happened on Thursday for me. It won't be leaving my sideboard anytime soon. Last weekend at Jupiter, I used Grapeshot to kill an entire Elves players board minus his only land (a Cradle) one of the creatures was a Craterhoof.

I won't lie, I've considered playing 2 Thoughtseize/1 Therapy main deck over Duress. It's an idea that I've been toying with, haven't tested it in a long time though.

Yep, Grapeshot does nasty things even agains 3+ thoughness creatures, but if Thalia, Cannonist and hexproof critter are a regular annoyance, I can see the application of Clasm over GS. Metagaming...


The last time I tested with the Thoughtseize, it was outright horrible (5 months back tbh) to fight against Aggro and Tempo unless you snatch their single threat while keeping a slow hand. Paying 2 life for a 1-for-1 trade is harsh. I'd love to test a few configurations before BoM in 2 weeks, but won't make it to more than 1 tourney in the meantime. Bryant, if your final test session before the invitational wields any new impressions that might change the 75, I would be very thankful if you might share these. Enjoy your weekend, pal.

[Bryant Cook]

Yep, Grapeshot does nasty things even agains 3+ thoughness creatures, but if Thalia, Cannonist and hexproof critter are a regular annoyance, I can see the application of Clasm over GS. Metagaming...


The last time I tested with the Thoughtseize, it was outright horrible (5 months back tbh) to fight against Aggro and Tempo unless you snatch their single threat while keeping a slow hand. Paying 2 life for a 1-for-1 trade is harsh. I'd love to test a few configurations before BoM in 2 weeks, but won't make it to more than 1 tourney in the meantime. Bryant, if your final test session before the invitational wields any new impressions that might change the 75, I would be very thankful if you might share these. Enjoy your weekend, pal.

First off, name a single hexproof creature that we care about. Poor excuse man.

Secondly, if the opponent has Cannonist & Thalia there's a very strong chance that you're already so far behind that Pyroclasm won't save you. Not to mention, it would only three storm to kill those creatures with Grapsehot - all it would require is playing some artifacts and then Grapeshot. That plan may be slightly worse considering that you cut a Chrome Mox though (Which also makes Empty & Returns worse).

My list is currently the list on the opening post. I haven't changed it at all, although I may test Thoughtseize before the invitational. It would require being a little more conservative with Probes and not being as care-free about playing life.

[Final Fortune]

Hmmm ... heared discarding Counterbalance is still pretty good. It's not like you can't Silence against Clique which is a 3cc spell too (ergo possibly too slow)

I keep my discard spells pretty much till I plan to go off (aside combo matchups, of course) and use my early resources to cantrip into mana and Biz

Silence is an awful answer to Vendillion Clique, the opponent removes your win condition, establishes a clock and gains card advantage where Thought Seize removes whatever remaining permission the opponent has in his hand while you search for another win condition or avoids the problem entirely by discarding Vendillion Clique before turn 3.

I'm liking +2 Thought Seize MD, -1 Cabal Therapy SB quite a bit, I think you're seriously under estimating just how hard the Miracles deck with 4 MD Vendillion Clique and SB Meddling Mage is with Duress coughing up air.

[Lemnear]

Silence is an awful answer to Vendillion Clique, the opponent removes your win condition, establishes a clock and gains card advantage where Thought Seize removes whatever remaining permission the opponent has in his hand while you search for another win condition or avoids the problem entirely by discarding Vendillion Clique before turn 3.

I'm liking +2 Thought Seize MD, -1 Cabal Therapy SB quite a bit, I think you're seriously under estimating just how hard the Miracles deck with 4 MD Vendillion Clique and SB Meddling Mage is with Duress coughing up air.

Never saw 4 MB Cliques and you can switch Duress vs. Therapy in postboard games so the last sentence is strange. Clique isn't cardadvantage and in my experience too slow to do anything meaningful and if they run 4 Cliques and severL Meddling Mages as hate postboard I doubt that Terminus are still in the deck too. They can't have sweepers, counters and hatebears in one deck available. Would be a strange plan.

[kiwi]

When you play thoughtseize you lose 2 lifes, if you play 4 gitaxian probe and 2 thoughtseize Ad Nauseam will be worse. I dont like to play thoughtseize in MD now.

[Bryant Cook]

When you play thoughtseize you lose 2 lifes, if you play 4 gitaxian probe and 2 thoughtseize Ad Nauseam will be worse. I dont like to play thoughtseize in MD now.

Now that useless and obvious posts are out of the way, let's get to some real discussion!

It's pretty obvious that Thoughtseize makes us lose life and that Gitaxian Probe can as well, but it's a matter of how you play these cards and the benefits of Thoughtseize over Duress. It'll require some serious playtesting against tempo decks to see if Thoughtseize can stand in those match-ups, but it'll certainly help out in every single non-blue match-up including Thalia decks.

I'm not saying that I'm making the switch, but it's worth testing.

[davelin]

Silence is an awful answer to Vendillion Clique, the opponent removes your win condition, establishes a clock and gains card advantage where Thought Seize removes whatever remaining permission the opponent has in his hand while you search for another win condition or avoids the problem entirely by discarding Vendillion Clique before turn 3.

I'm liking +2 Thought Seize MD, -1 Cabal Therapy SB quite a bit, I think you're seriously under estimating just how hard the Miracles deck with 4 MD Vendillion Clique and SB Meddling Mage is with Duress coughing up air.

4 MD Cliques is pretty bad deck construction, each one drawn after the first is significantly worse. I find that those playing Clique usually do one of two things - cast it immediately at your EOT when they have the chance or wait until your combo turn. In the first scenario you should still have plenty of opportunity to setup, not to also speak of having a second business spell or cantrip to help find another one. In the last scenario they are giving you plenty of time to setup or find ways to play around the Clique, as well as having to leave up at least 3 mana each turn in case you're able to go off.

[Asthereal]

It's pretty obvious that Thoughtseize makes us lose life and that Gitaxian Probe can as well, but it's a matter of how you play these cards and the benefits of Thoughtseize over Duress. It'll require some serious playtesting against tempo decks to see if Thoughtseize can stand in those match-ups, but it'll certainly help out in every single non-blue match-up including Thalia decks.

I'm not saying that I'm making the switch, but it's worth testing.
I've been using Seizes instead of Therapies for some time and I'm happy with them. Removing the randomness factor of Therapy is worth the life loss, and one can always cast Probes for mana. Never used them in the main over Duress or Silence though. It deserves a test run, though I have the feeling Duress and Silence will win that battle. Maybe as a one-of instead of the Therapy Bryant uses in the main could be an option. Also depends a bit on the sideboard space.

MB 4x Silence, 2x Duress, 1x Seize
SB 2x Seize
This gives us the option to postboard play 3x Seize, 2x Chain, 2x Decay against Maverick, D&T and so on.

MB 4x Silence, 3x Duress
SB 3x Seize
This would cost us the option to play 1x Trop and 3x Swarm on side (not enough SB room). This is probably slightly better against Tempo, but worse against S&T stuff that side Leyline of Sanctity.

MB 4x Silence, 3x Seize
SB ?
This does seem to cost too much life in the long run, because it means that we have Seizes in the deck at least one game every round we don't need them. My preference would go out to one of the first two options. Testing option 2 seems unnecessary though, since that's actually what I played last time I ran TES. :tongue: (Worked fine for me, btw.)

[Pelikanudo]

Therapies are able to 1-for-2 or 1-for-3 in certain situations which is an aspect of battling other Ritual-decks and defensive counter strategies. I agree that Thoughtseize is a golden bullet and always hit but between Probes, Fetches and Cities, Thoughtseize is horrible against anything that might add pressure and easily make Ad Nauseam worse once you have to fight though defense (Imagine being forced to strip a Stifle post-AN).

The only possible evolution to the protection-suit in the forseeing future is playing 3 Therapy Main and 1 SB, cutting the Duress' and trying to force your Probes in every Game 1 and next-level your skill to estimate the right calls for blind-Therapies according to the gamestate.

+1 agree

I have to say that I love therapy, and I'm looking other combo players love more and more Therapy, I even played the ANT deck with 4 therapys and 3 duresses, instead 3 and 4 and no regret...
I really think also that at least in TES i would substitute 3 duress for full therapys, not Silence. Therapy can act perfectly as Silence in the Combo moment for example and in this scenario is even stronger having the opportunity of 2of whatever has no Price.
I see simply Therapy stronger than Duress and of course than T.Seize.
I'm really thinking in taking out full of duresses from main, this will be something to test... I'll have 1 free slot!
Apart, for a Good Combo Player, Vendilion can be even a good card for us...

[Lemnear]

Having 4 Therapy and 2 EtW in the 75 sounds nasty. Doubt I have time to test

[Bryant Cook]

I did some testing today against RUG, UW Stoneblade and Sneak Show with the disruption package of 4 Silence, 2 Thoughtseize and 1 Cabal Therapy. I didn't notice the lifeloss in the games I played, there was a single game where it could've mattered if I hit multiple runners in a row, but it didn't happen anyway. I was happy with the Thoughtseizes, but I do understand that it's a small sample size.

I did realize that now we do have a LOT of disruption for the Thalia decks to the point where I was unsure of what to do. I was thinking:

-4 Silence
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox

+1 Tropical Island
+2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Chain of Vapor
+2 Abrupt Decay

the alternative is not bringing in Decay and instead keeping the Ponder and Chrome Mox.

[Final Fortune]

Never saw 4 MB Cliques and you can switch Duress vs. Therapy in postboard games so the last sentence is strange. Clique isn't cardadvantage and in my experience too slow to do anything meaningful and if they run 4 Cliques and severL Meddling Mages as hate postboard I doubt that Terminus are still in the deck too. They can't have sweepers, counters and hatebears in one deck available. Would be a strange plan.

I swear there's a reading deficiency problem in this thread, whether or not Terminus remains in the deck post-sb with Meddling Mage is tangential to Silence and Duress being sub-par disruption vs Vendillion Clique and hate bears and boarding out Duress for Cabal Therapy requires that you leave no disruption in the SB for Burning Wish capable of dealing with Vendillion Clique. Yes, Clique is card advantage vs Silence, because when Clique is cast in response to Silence the opponent loses his win condition for X card, you gain a clock and the Silence is left hanging on the stack without any way for the opponent to win. I wish I lived in this world where every one played the Rest in Peace version of Miracles, no one played 4 Vendillion Clique in any deck because it was a deck building "mistake" and every body forgot Clique has Flash; it must be nice to have a pre-conceived notion of what every one else is doing before the fact.

I'm running 2 Thoughtseize, 4 City of Brass and a 4th Fetchland and have had no significant problems with life loss, I may very well go to 3 Thoughtseize at this point just to see how much it matters, as I think 3 Cabal Therapy are slightly too passive and no one is as good as they think they are at deducting what's in the opponent's hand.

[davelin]

I swear there's a reading deficiency problem in this thread, whether or not Terminus remains in the deck post-sb with Meddling Mage is tangential to Silence and Duress being sub-par disruption vs Vendillion Clique and hate bears and boarding out Duress for Cabal Therapy requires that you leave no disruption in the SB for Burning Wish capable of dealing with Vendillion Clique. Yes, Clique is card advantage vs Silence, because when Clique is cast in response to Silence the opponent loses his win condition for X card, you gain a clock and the Silence is left hanging on the stack without any way for the opponent to win. I wish I lived in this world where every one played the Rest in Peace version of Miracles, no one played 4 Vendillion Clique in any deck because it was a deck building "mistake" and every body forgot Clique has Flash; it must be nice to have a pre-conceived notion of what every one else is doing before the fact.

I'm running 2 Thoughtseize, 4 City of Brass and a 4th Fetchland and have had no significant problems with life loss, I may very well go to 3 Thoughtseize at this point just to see how much it matters, as I think 3 Cabal Therapy are slightly too passive and no one is as good as they think they are at deducting what's in the opponent's hand.

Personally I've never seen a decklist from a major event with four Cliques but I could be wrong. Who forgot that clique has flash, I didn't certainly. It can certainly be an annoying card to have to deal with but I don't think backbreaking given 8 pieces of business and numerous cantrips to help us dig for them.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm running 2 Thoughtseize, 4 City of Brass and a 4th Fetchland and have had no significant problems with life loss, I may very well go to 3 Thoughtseize at this point just to see how much it matters, as I think 3 Cabal Therapy are slightly too passive and no one is as good as they think they are at deducting what's in the opponent's hand.


I personally feel that this is a little obsessive with the life-loss. But I agree with your sentiments about three Cabal Therapy main deck.

In other news, I think the Tropical may be leaving my sideboard for a third Abrupt Decay. It's not something I'm positive about, but I expect more Miracles than average at the upcoming invitational.

[Lemnear]

I swear there's a reading deficiency problem in this thread, whether or not Terminus remains in the deck post-sb with Meddling Mage is tangential to Silence and Duress being sub-par disruption vs Vendillion Clique and hate bears and boarding out Duress for Cabal Therapy requires that you leave no disruption in the SB for Burning Wish capable of dealing with Vendillion Clique. Yes, Clique is card advantage vs Silence, because when Clique is cast in response to Silence the opponent loses his win condition for X card, you gain a clock and the Silence is left hanging on the stack without any way for the opponent to win. I wish I lived in this world where every one played the Rest in Peace version of Miracles, no one played 4 Vendillion Clique in any deck because it was a deck building "mistake" and every body forgot Clique has Flash; it must be nice to have a pre-conceived notion of what every one else is doing before the fact.

I'm running 2 Thoughtseize, 4 City of Brass and a 4th Fetchland and have had no significant problems with life loss, I may very well go to 3 Thoughtseize at this point just to see how much it matters, as I think 3 Cabal Therapy are slightly too passive and no one is as good as they think they are at deducting what's in the opponent's hand.

Dunno ... could be because englisch's only my 4th language; could be because you bring up examples I never saw or read about; could be because you miss my point about EtW being amazing against a disruption-plan which is based on creatures and therefore I expect sweepers leaving their mainboard then.

Your example is pretty much the kind I ranted about a few pages back and/or in another thread: It's pointless to discuss the efficiency of 3cc or 4cc cards like Venser, Glen Elendra, Bloodmoon, Arcane Lab, V.Clique an others against a deck which's capable to win during it's first few turns. I hope this topic doesn't develop into slinging some best-/worst-case-scenarios.



Edit: Dunno if I would feel too well with AN while running Thoughtseize and 2-3 Decays in postboard games against something like RW Goblins w/ Thalia

[Bryant Cook]

Edit: Dunno if I would feel too well with AN while running Thoughtseize and 2-3 Decays in postboard games against something like RW Goblins w/ Thalia

You wouldn't be siding all three Abrupt Decays in against Goblins with Thalia. Also, I decided I'm going to test 4 Silence/2 Therapy/1 Thoughtseize last night with a Therapy and a 'Seize in the sideboard last night, no Tropical, three Decay. The second Seize in the board limits the amount of unnecessary life-loss as well as ensures you only need it in the match-ups where the deck specifically needs the discard a creature effect.

[Lemnear]

You wouldn't be siding all three Abrupt Decays in against Goblins with Thalia. Also, I decided I'm going to test 4 Silence/2 Therapy/1 Thoughtseize last night with a Therapy and a 'Seize in the sideboard last night, no Tropical, three Decay. The second Seize in the board limits the amount of unnecessary life-loss as well as ensures you only need it in the match-ups where the deck specifically needs the discard a creature effect.

Sounds good to test both (more MB Therapy and Thoughtseize) at the same time.

I tend to say that the possible cut of MB Duress might free up another SB slot. (1 SB discard should be enough if you don't have to switch between Therapy and Duress anymore)

[Bryant Cook]

Sounds good to test both (more MB Therapy and Thoughtseize) at the same time.

I tend to say that the possible cut of MB Duress might free up another SB slot. (1 SB discard should be enough if you don't have to switch between Therapy and Duress anymore)

It could, but I do like having five discard spells post-board against Thalia decks. I'm not sure what I would even want to play if I decided to cut a sideboard discard spell.

[Lemnear]

It could, but I do like having five discard spells post-board against Thalia decks. I'm not sure what I would even want to play if I decided to cut a sideboard discard spell.

1st World problems ;)

Trop + 3 Decay maybe? TP? Lets see first how it works out with CT & Ts

[Deviruchi]

I did yesterday a testing session with

Main: 4 Silence, 1 Duress, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Thoughtseize

Maindeck felt funky a little but with 3 various form of discard but was still ok. Twice having Thoughtseize was key but also once Duress was very important. I missed having 3 CT in g2&3 for sure. Tried SB: 1 Tropical with 3 AD and 1 CoV but missed having more CoV's so it was a wrong idea.

[Bryant Cook]

I did yesterday a testing session with

Main: 4 Silence, 1 Duress, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Thoughtseize

Maindeck felt funky a little but with 3 various form of discard but was still ok. Twice having Thoughtseize was key but also once Duress was very important. I missed having 3 CT in g2&3 for sure. Tried SB: 1 Tropical with 3 AD and 1 CoV but missed having more CoV's so it was a wrong idea.

With three singleton disruption spells, you can't ever Infernal Tutor for a second copy in dire situations. Awkward.

[Vandalize]

OFF:
There's a little problem in playing 3 Thoughtseizes in your 75. How are we going to buy 3 Japanese Foils Lorwyn Thoughtseizes without selling our cars?

ON:
Thoughtseize is only significantly worse against RUG and UWR Delver. In pretty much all other matchups, it's a strict improved Duress. How's that testing going?

[Pelikanudo]

I think just 2 therapy 1 duress is ok.

The only match up I will regret not casting a Therapy blind will be Reanimator and maybe S&T and MUD, but for the rest: Thalia Deccks, Control, BUG, Tempo, Agro etc I do not think on averall it is worse, I've seen and calibrated several games vs Thalia Decks in which Therapy is way superior because they put in the 4th copy or in synergy with CoV as its is legendary, you even name blindly the card if you suspect and this will not matter much on the other hand vs T.Seize because if they do not have it just will die.
So on average I think just 2 Therapy 1 duress main will just work ok, and just play 1 in side. Accordingly I'll have 1 free slot and could be possibly be 3rd A.Decay, also expect in my meta miracles and Thalia.Decks. The problem becomes that now you need another duress effect to side --> can be 4th therapy or duress--> Again 2 A.Decay. Also Therapy is great in the ANT match up much better than duress.

[BrettF]

Manaless dredge 2-0
Elves 2-0
UR delver 1-2
Death and taxes 0-2
Cloudpost 2-0
Tin fins 2-0
UWR Delver 0-2
RUG Delver 2-0
Mono Red Burn 2-0

35th after 9 rounds of playing THE EPIC STORM at SCG Seattle.*
No duresses would have been really nice vs DNT, but suicide vs the aggressive draws my dellver losses gave me.

[Lemnear]

Once you have eliminated the Main-weaknesses of the previous MB discard-suit (creatures), it's questionable if you either want the golden bullet effect for 2 life, or the possible cardadvantage (and mindtricks via snapcalling) of Therapy which is really nasty if you use it to Force through an EtW. Aside from stripping the only creature in a tempo-players hand I can imagine a lot more value coming from Therapy

[paeng4983]

@Lem
RE: -1 chrome for + 1 city of [br]ass

Having this substitution made my opening-hand-decision-making more easy.
Mathematically speaking, like 75% of the time, having the 3rd brass in the 60 is a good thing. It also effectively freed a slot in my SB replacing the lone Trop for Pyroclasm.

The remaining 25% consist of the situations where you wish it was a mox like flipping it during an ad naus to help you in your mana producing; or wishing it was a mox to increase your goblin storm.

---

RE: Thoughtseize
4 Silence / 2 Cabal / 1 Thoughtseize is a good ratio in terms of upgrading our main 60 against creature-hate-main-decks.

I think reducing the Cabal by 1 and replacing it with a 3rd AD is another improvement to help us fight against UW Miracle lovers.

^_^

We have our scheduled big legacy event this Sunday. I've been [re]using TES since June of this year and always end up 9th or 10th placer. I just wish things go my way this weekend and hope to make it again on top.

Good luck Cook on the invitational. We're all be waiting for your tournament report.

See you in two weeks, Lem.

^_^

[mario91234]

You're playing vs hypergenesis/show and tell and its g2. you are on the draw. your seven looks like: 2x DR, 2x LED, 1 IT, Brainstorm, Gprobe.

Keep or mull?

Wish me luck at the invitational as well. gonna need it.

-mario

[paeng4983]

You're playing vs hypergenesis/show and tell and its g2. you are on the draw. your seven looks like: 2x DR, 2x LED, 1 IT, Brainstorm, Gprobe.
Keep or mull?
-mario

A very tempting hand.
You need to consider the way he keeps his hand ad the number of SB cards your opponent used.

Uhmmm, just being responsive, its a no. There's no guarantee that you'll draw into a land or a petal. But if you're that greedy - then on keep it. Pray solemnly to whatever god you believe at for you to draw a land/ petal in your draw step and off the probe.

^_^

[Bryant Cook]

For reference, here's what I'm testing. It seems a couple people have things mixed up:


The EPIC Storm
Decklist as of 10/22/2013

4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns

[Tammit67]

You're playing vs hypergenesis/show and tell and its g2. you are on the draw. your seven looks like: 2x DR, 2x LED, 1 IT, Brainstorm, Gprobe.

Keep or mull?

Wish me luck at the invitational as well. gonna need it.

-mario

They have to not have force and you have to hit the mana source? Eww.

[<3grim_monolith]

Hey guys, I've been testing the stock list and really enjoy this deck. I am going to order the cards soon and like many am on a budget, I'd really like some advice on lands as this is where I am planning to cheap out until I can afford them ( want the first order to be around 6 or 7 hundred and then drop the other 400 or whatever later). What should I do? Shock lands or basics to replace duals? Play 4 cob, 4 gemstones, 4 orchards? I am worried about all the life loss but the fact remains that I can't afford the good stuff right now and I am prepared to play a weak version of the deck until I can.

[Lemnear]

@Lem
RE: -1 chrome for + 1 city of ass

Having this substitution made my opening-hand-decision-making more easy.
Mathematically speaking, like 75% of the time, having the 3rd brass in the 60 is a good thing. It also effectively freed a slot in my SB replacing the lone Trop for Pyroclasm.

The remaining 25% consist of the situations where you wish it was a mox like flipping it during an ad naus to help you in your mana producing; or wishing it was a mox to increase your goblin storm.

[B]the SB land isn't super-important overall and boarding mana feels awkward to me. I have not enough data to make a shoutout about the mana flexibility of CoB vs. the additional Shuffle-effect of an additional fetch or something fancy as a MB Tropical, but so far, the shuffle came in handy with all the cantrips in the deck.
---

RE: Thoughtseize
4 Silence / 2 Cabal / 1 Thoughtseize is a good ratio in terms of upgrading our main 60 against creature-hate-main-decks.

I think reducing the Cabal by 1 and replacing it with a 3rd AD is another improvement to help us fight against UW Miracle lovers.

by currently testing only a single SB discard, I now have a free SB slot for the 3rd Decay. Switching the discard for certain matchups felt like a waste of SB space. I'm glad we can now have this discussion

^_^

We have our scheduled big legacy event this Sunday. I've been [re]using TES since June of this year and always end up 9th or 10th placer. I just wish things go my way this weekend and hope to make it again on top.

Good luck Cook on the invitational. We're all be waiting for your tournament report.

See you in two weeks, Lem.

we will. The whole crew will play the Friday 9am trial and then we will see how that works out for each of us. Either we head back to the flipchart and try again @ 2pm or go for trading/chatter for the Rest of the afternoon. Maybe setting up the Hurricane vs. Cyclone Clash between Carsten and Me lol. Dunno. Don't want to be too tired for Saturday, so I'll go out for dinner and a show early. Won't test through the night or such. See you there :D

^_^


You're playing vs hypergenesis/show and tell and its g2. you are on the draw. your seven looks like: 2x DR, 2x LED, 1 IT, Brainstorm, Gprobe.

Keep or mull?

Wish me luck at the invitational as well. gonna need it.

-mario

You have 2 draws to find an IMS and the mana fits to right explode into his face while won game 1? I'll keep that one!

[Lemnear]

Hey guys, I've been testing the stock list and really enjoy this deck. I am going to order the cards soon and like many am on a budget, I'd really like some advice on lands as this is where I am planning to cheap out until I can afford them ( want the first order to be around 6 or 7 hundred and then drop the other 400 or whatever later). What should I do? Shock lands or basics to replace duals? Play 4 cob, 4 gemstones, 4 orchards? I am worried about all the life loss but the fact remains that I can't afford the good stuff right now and I am prepared to play a weak version of the deck until I can.

Without trying to depress you: there is no solution. Playing basics (limited color in a 5color deck), Shocklands (damage race vs Aggro and worse Ad Nauseam) or more Gold lands (less shuffle effects, more damage off CoB or Spirit tokens) will all let you suffer to a point there you'll call the deck crap and resell it faster as you can possibly get hands on Fetches and Duals (you wouldn't be the first one who abandons a deck due to bad results quickly). Playing such a complicated and fine tuned machine with substitutes will loose a lot of games on it's own.

[<3grim_monolith]

Without trying to depress you: there is no solution. Playing basics (limited color in a 5color deck), Shocklands (damage race vs Aggro and worse Ad Nauseam) or more Gold lands (less shuffle effects, more damage off CoB or Spirit tokens) will all let you suffer to a point there you'll call the deck crap and resell it faster as you can possibly get hands on Fetches and Duals (you wouldn't be the first one who abandons a deck due to bad results quickly). Playing such a complicated and fine tuned machine with substitutes will loose a lot of games on it's own.

Thanks for the reply. Would you go so far as to say I'd be better off building belcher, dredge or some other budget legacy deck than an incomplete TES? I tested a few "affordable" decks but didn't enjoy any of them anywhere near as much as TES.

Yeah I figured as much, I've been testing online with 4 cob, 4 gsm, 2 orchard and 2 glimmervoid - I've won most of my games but I have lost a good number purely on getting screwed by the lands. I am getting into magic again after quite a while (played delver and wrr when isd block came out but before then it was all the way back to affinity) so I just want to get back into it and into legacy for the longevity of cards life span as well as nostalgia factor. I don't plan on entering seriously competitive tourneys with the deck until I complete the land package. The itch to play is here; I'm sure I'll find myself at a table somewhere raging over not being able to shuffle after a useless brainstorm (if there is such a thing) but hey, at least I'll be playing. That's how I'm thinking atm.

Must say that I am yet to use diminishing returns effectively, when have you found it to be best?

[Lemnear]

Thanks for the reply. Would you go so far as to say I'd be better off building belcher, dredge or some other budget legacy deck than an incomplete TES? I tested a few "affordable" decks but didn't enjoy any of them anywhere near as much as TES.

Yeah I figured as much, I've been testing online with 4 cob, 4 gsm, 2 orchard and 2 glimmervoid - I've won most of my games but I have lost a good number purely on getting screwed by the lands. I am getting into magic again after quite a while (played delver and wrr when isd block came out but before then it was all the way back to affinity) so I just want to get back into it and into legacy for the longevity of cards life span as well as nostalgia factor. I don't plan on entering seriously competitive tourneys with the deck until I complete the land package. The itch to play is here; I'm sure I'll find myself at a table somewhere raging over not being able to shuffle after a useless brainstorm (if there is such a thing) but hey, at least I'll be playing. That's how I'm thinking atm.

Must say that I am yet to use diminishing returns effectively, when have you found it to be best?

Reading this I might consider Spanish Inquisition a funny way to bridge into TES for now :)

Diminishing Returns is best cast early to a) negate Mulligan-/Chrome Mox-carddisadvantage, b) to screw your opponents keeps with a T1 DR or c) whenever neither PiF (too less Rituals in the GY) or EtW (playing against combo, stormcount too low, opponent has sweepers) are not an option.

[davelin]

Must say that I am yet to use diminishing returns effectively, when have you found it to be best?

Lem is spot on about when to DimRet. I find myself using DimRet quite often as of late. Frequently after the course of the first few turns, my hand will be somewhat whittled away because of discard (ours and theirs), with just a Wish for business and the ability to just create 6-8 goblin tokens (ew!) so DimRet is a good place here to quick fill up our hand. One strategic component I just read but hadn't considered is intentionally not dropping a land before casting DimRet but waiting until afterwards to achieve hellbent. Not sure why this didn't occur to me before.

[Vacrix]

Reading this I might consider Spanish Inquisition a funny way to bridge into TES for now :)
Or play SITES and then convert it to TES later. SITES is mostly just a shell though. You can play Therapies and Probes, Burning Wishes and ITs, or if you prefer Empty the Warrens in your metagame play those, or play a faster version with SSGs.

[Lemnear]

Lem is spot on about when to DimRet. I find myself using DimRet quite often as of late. Frequently after the course of the first few turns, my hand will be somewhat whittled away because of discard (ours and theirs), with just a Wish for business and the ability to just create 6-8 goblin tokens (ew!) so DimRet is a good place here to quick fill up our hand. One strategic component I just read but hadn't considered is intentionally not dropping a land before casting DimRet but waiting until afterwards to achieve hellbent. Not sure why this didn't occur to me before.

Evaluating this depends on your lands in play (possibility of drawing one off DR) and if a drawn land isn't better to fight though your opponents new hand or if you plan to play on after DR (often requires some mana float).

Those however are the lil thinks you only realize with experience and can't ever be adressed in articles and such.

[oSeabass]

Evaluating this depends on your lands in play (possibility of drawing one off DR) and if a drawn land isn't better to fight though your opponents new hand or if you plan to play on after DR (often requires some mana float).

Those however are the lil thinks you only realize with experience and can't ever be adressed in articles and such.

I still don't think I fully understand all the uses for DR in the board. It makes sense to use it as a reset button to get a fresh 7 from Discard and mulligans tearing the hand apart. How often is it used as an all in tool where you just go for it (hopefully under Silence), and just win the same turn. I know BC has %s in the opening post about floating mana and DR, but I am not sure I fully get if that is a shove all in storm engine similar to AN, or is it more like a safety net and a reset/panic button against very disruptive decks. In theory, a disruptive deck would be slower and not have as many threats pressuring you (if they are destroying your hand), so just DR and passing the turn seems like it could be good to start over... but then you are giving your opponent another opportunity to make you discard more (shuffle in their spells), and draw cards back off the DR to use against you to screw you again.

[Tom T]

I still don't think I fully understand all the uses for DR in the board. It makes sense to use it as a reset button to get a fresh 7 from Discard and mulligans tearing the hand apart. How often is it used as an all in tool where you just go for it (hopefully under Silence), and just win the same turn. I know BC has %s in the opening post about floating mana and DR, but I am not sure I fully get if that is a shove all in storm engine similar to AN, or is it more like a safety net and a reset/panic button against very disruptive decks. In theory, a disruptive deck would be slower and not have as many threats pressuring you (if they are destroying your hand), so just DR and passing the turn seems like it could be good to start over... but then you are giving your opponent another opportunity to make you discard more (shuffle in their spells), and draw cards back off the DR to use against you to screw you again.

Things like Diminishing Returns have some standard easy-to-figure-out uses, but there are also a lot of weird situations where you'll have to use it because of other things. You'll have to play the deck to come across those situations. In game pondering on different Burning Wish targets is needed to get better, not some how-to-guide which explains ALL different situations. Doing this will get you better at deciding if it's a good idea to use it as an all-in-strategy, because it's dependent on the complete board state, your removed cards, life totals, if you had a landdrop or not and the deck your opponent's playing.

[oSeabass]

Things like Diminishing Returns have some standard easy-to-figure-out uses, but there are also a lot of weird situations where you'll have to use it because of other things. You'll have to play the deck to come across those situations. In game pondering on different Burning Wish targets is needed to get better, not some how-to-guide which explains ALL different situations.

I've started rereading through Lemnear's Heart of the Storm reports to see and make note of where he is using DR in certain situations. I figured I wouldn't have it easy as USE X WHEN Y, because this is Legacy and if it was that, I don't think I would enjoy it.

I know I've used it before and hit wins off of it, but I feel like a DR is almost always going to result in me passing the turn and re-waiting for a spot. PiF is only good when you have lots of rituals in bin (or they discarded a bunch of your stuff you can recast).

[davelin]

I still don't think I fully understand all the uses for DR in the board. It makes sense to use it as a reset button to get a fresh 7 from Discard and mulligans tearing the hand apart. How often is it used as an all in tool where you just go for it (hopefully under Silence), and just win the same turn. I know BC has %s in the opening post about floating mana and DR, but I am not sure I fully get if that is a shove all in storm engine similar to AN, or is it more like a safety net and a reset/panic button against very disruptive decks. In theory, a disruptive deck would be slower and not have as many threats pressuring you (if they are destroying your hand), so just DR and passing the turn seems like it could be good to start over... but then you are giving your opponent another opportunity to make you discard more (shuffle in their spells), and draw cards back off the DR to use against you to screw you again.

DimRet becomes a go-to storm engine card when EtW isn't sufficient to win and your life total is too low to safely Ad Nauseum (or you need to go off immediately without access to AN) and your graveyard isn't sufficient to Wish for Past in Flames or IGG (which isn't difficult to imagine with DRS prevalent).

[oSeabass]

DimRet becomes a go-to storm engine card when EtW isn't sufficient to win and your life total is too low to safely Ad Nauseum (or you need to go off immediately without access to AN) and your graveyard isn't sufficient to Wish for Past in Flames or IGG (which isn't difficult to imagine with DRS prevalent).

I am seeing this trend in Lemnear's reports. The engine part seems like drawing 7 means a potential 7 extra Storm. I have def. been in situations where I was low on life and couldn't AN safely, and they had enough stuff on board to block/win EtW... I will have to try DR in those situations in testing to see the flow of that card. It does make a lot more sense with that explanation though.

Thanks.

[Lemnear]

I am seeing this trend in Lemnear's reports. The engine part seems like drawing 7 means a potential 7 extra Storm. I have def. been in situations where I was low on life and couldn't AN safely, and they had enough stuff on board to block/win EtW... I will have to try DR in those situations in testing to see the flow of that card. It does make a lot more sense with that explanation though.

Thanks.

You may look at it as kinda super-Ill-Gotten-Gains that gives you 7 cards rather than 3 to create additional storm once your life is low and the other cards are not an option like I pointed out a few posts back. Of course, against decks with various counters (especially postboard), DR is an undesireable option without the protection of Silence or Xantid

[Jaycounet]

you never consider to side out 1 IT ? i know it decrease our possibilities to kill quickly and reduce our change to draw a tutor. but sometimes you can draw a BW and you can't cast PIF or you allready know that empty won't be enough (don't talk about gambling on DimRet) go to get an IT with BW and next turn Adnauseam would be interessing in some games no ?

you've surely allready talk about this but i was thinking of this in some games that i would be in this situation.

[Luklinda]

The most frequent use I've had for DR is as a reset against dredge once you've played out a few lands and/or artifact mana.

[Lemnear]

you never consider to side out 1 IT ? i know it decrease our possibilities to kill quickly and reduce our change to draw a tutor. but sometimes you can draw a BW and you can't cast PIF or you allready know that empty won't be enough (don't talk about gambling on DimRet) go to get an IT with BW and next turn Adnauseam would be interessing in some games no ?

you've surely allready talk about this but i was thinking of this in some games that i would be in this situation.

I even covered it in some Report afaik, but that Line of Play requires a total of 9 mana and enough life to cast Ad Nauseam. Lets consider your starting Hand contains 7 Cards, one is a wish, so you Need to generate 9 mana and hellbent off 6 Cards. That's pretty impossible to "kill quick" under those conditions.

Think about the matchups where you board out Infernal

[Jaycounet]

hi ! quick question how do you deal with maverick (even there not many maverick anymore) if mother is available and thalia or gaddock is on the board ?

[Lemnear]

hi ! quick question how do you deal with maverick (even there not many maverick anymore) if mother is available and thalia or gaddock is on the board ?

Keep/mull into faster hands and/or Silence-Walk/Therapy to prevent the hatebear. In postboard-games you have additional options for 2-for-1 solutions containing Grapeshot, Abrupt Decay and Chain of Vapor.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm leaving for the invitational after work today. Playing the list I posted on the last page, I put it in the opening post for reference.

[Kayradis]

Looking forward to watch the feature matches!

[Lemnear]

I'm leaving for the invitational after work today. Playing the list I posted on the last page, I put it in the opening post for reference.

Good luck, pal

[davelin]

Good luck, pal

+1

[Jaycounet]

I'm leaving for the invitational after work today. Playing the list I posted on the last page, I put it in the opening post for reference.

GL !!
I'll try the same list this evening for a small event ^^

[Lemnear]

GL !!
I'll try the same list this evening for a small event ^^

This evening is also my last live-Action-test before the BoM Trials: Triple Dk, Triple XS, TP, Quad-CT, 2/2 FS/PD-Fetch-split, Codename "KiBa"

[Jaycounet]

This evening is also my last live-Action-test before the BoM Trials: Triple Dk, Triple XS, TP, Quad-CT, 2/2 FS/PD-Fetch-split, Codename "KiBa"

still thinking about TP everyday ^^

[Jay_Gatz]

For reference, here's what I'm testing. It seems a couple people have things mixed up: The EPIC Storm Decklist as of 10/22/2013 4 Gemstone Mine 2 City of Brass 2 Underground Sea 1 Volcanic Island 1 Scalding Tarn 1 Misty Rainforest 1 Flooded Strand 3 Chrome Mox 4 Lotus Petal 4 Lion’s Eye Diamond 4 Dark Ritual 4 Rite of Flame 4 Burning Wish 4 Infernal Tutor 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Gitaxian Probe 4 Silence 2 Cabal Therapy 1 Thoughtseize 1 Empty the Warrens 1 Ad Nauseam 3 Xantid Swarm 3 Abrupt Decay 2 Chain of Vapor 1 Cabal Therapy 1 Thoughtseize 1 Grapeshot 1 Empty the Warrens 1 Tendrils of Agony 1 Past in Flames 1 Diminishing Returns Played basically this list -1 xantid +1 shattering spree at my local weekly last night. People at my store love to play chalice of the void and no one is really on reanimator or show and tell so I throw in shattering spree for these. Played against death and taxes, TES mirror, tezzeret and shardless bant. Thoughtseize was definitely better than duress in my meta especially against decks like bant with a mix of creature and spell disruption. The life loss wasn't really an issue except in two cases. The first one I was too low for a realistic win anyway against lethal on board with a chalice on zero in play. The other time was a very in depth past in flames turn against shardless bant that had me down to 1 life and the line could have been to grapeshot his team and strip the batterskull from his hand but my brainstorm hit the LED and I had exactly enough to tendrils him.

I especially like the thoughtseizes now that most of the blue decks are packing meddling mages and canonists in the board. Getting foil lorwyn thoughtseizes is going to be a pain though.

[mario91234]

I'm considering 2 TS 1 Therapy Main, 2 Therapy SB for Invitational. Addition of MM has certainly caused problems, but I'm hesitant. Hopefully can find the 3rd xantid before round 1.

[Lemnear]

Small report from out LGS in Berlin. I piloted my mentioned list and convinced my teammate to do the same. All mental notes

Round 1 - Florian with UWR Delver

Game 1:
I lost the Dice and keep a Medium hand. I Fake UWR Delver myself while he Ponders and finally reveals my hand with Probe. I infernal for a second RoF as he Drops Delver. I'm not patient enough here and start battling through FoW, Daze, 2 Stifle, Wasteland and shit. In the end, I'm one mana short of killing him, looking for help off a Brainstorm aka LED or any Ritual but brick. I'm annoyed the whole game because he whines about me slow-playing all the time. Carsten Kotter gently explains him why TES need a bit more time to be played than "Delver, go!"

Game 2:
I drop enought Goblins turn 1 that make it before he can topdeck an out

Game 3:
Time is called immediately and we're asked to draw. I refuse and say I can make it! My opponent laughs exactly 2 turns, before I disable his defense and have enough mana to Grapeshot his face off!

1-0

Round 2 - Carsten Kotter with ANT

Game 1:

This match is as equally annoying as exciting for us and I lost the dice again. He's an awesome guy and gives me Lotus Petal, 2 Dark Rituals and Ad Nauseam among crap for my starting 7. We joke about the importance of the 3rd Mox ... I have enough mana for PIF and Grapeshot showboat. He's mocking me a bit about IF I can kill him but stifles my joy, picking up his cards.

Game 2:

I'm in a gambling mood and keep a Medium hand because of knowing his Secret SB tech. I get dismembered by Duress and Therapy with him still able to finish me in turn 4 with an overload of Rituals, LED and Infernal. Pretty nice flow

Game 3:

I'm a smartass and float infernal + LED ontop while he Fires off a flurry of discard. A drawstep and a Ponder which was left is enough to assemble Ad Nauseam. Awesome guy, 'nuff said

2-0

Round 3 - Moe with Grixis Delver

Game 1:

I sculpt a 8-carder facing lethal and start fighting though Dazes, FoW and Stifle dismembering his whole grip of 7. he has 1 card left as I put ToA on the Stack ... Stifle #2 x(

Game 2:

I make 10 Goblins turn 2 and he's able to wipe them in time. I follow up with Ad Nauseam and Grapeshot his remaining life

Game 3:

I drop turn 1 Xantid and 12 Goblins. He wipes them once more with electrocute after pondering and eating a swing. I Wish for Grapeshot to finish him the following turn but Young Pyromancer + Cabal Therapy strips me off that option. Another Wish for ToA but I can't get enough mana and storm going before he's able to fight the Rituals and Pyromancer + friends kill me while I eat Wastelands

2-1

Round 4 - A polite guy (whichs name I sadly can't Remember) with Death & Taxes

Game 1:

Sat side to side in round 1 so there's no secret. I win my first diceroll today, Ponder off a Gemstone, see LED, keep. He Drops turn 1 Mother but never get a second turn ... Only ToA ...

Game 2:

He does land, go. I do, land, durdle, Grapeshot!

3-1

End of show!


Propper:
- Grapeshot
- able to pilot the deck after an exhausting day at work
- meeting Titus again. Order his e-Book goddamnit! ;)
- won the storm-mirror
- peeple still boarding Rest in Peace against me

Blopper:
- EtW failed to deliver twice
- no Secret SB tech vs Carsten
- lost a match
- me for casting Grapeshot against innocent people
- boarding in Decays < Turn 1 kill


Ended up 2nd and take a Shockland home as price. Thx for your attention dear ladies and gentleman!

[haganbmj]

hi ! quick question how do you deal with maverick (even there not many maverick anymore) if mother is available and thalia or gaddock is on the board ?

Maverick Player here (picking up TES), Maverick's hate (with few, bizarre sideboard exceptions) sits at 2CMC. If you can silence-walk through that turn (and capitalize on that with land drops or manipulation) then wonderful. If not, then try to set up permanent mana sources so that you can play through a potential Thalia. Laying Chrome Mox and Petals in anticipation of Thalia is fine. Beware of Wastelands though, naturally.

As far as getting through T1 Mother, t2 Thalia - you're in a rough spot. If you have a Massacre or something of the sort then sweet. Otherwise, you might just be trying to rough your way through Thalia.

[Sinkhole]

Congrats on your finish Lemnear! How worked out the Cabal Theraphys for you, had you been satisfied with it, or did you wish,
it was a Thoughtseize instead in some spots? Further had the side Tropical helped for casting Abrupt Decays and Xantids consitently?

Looking forward to see a Heart of Storm Vol. 6 :smile:

Greetz

[Lemnear]

Congrats on your finish Lemnear! How worked out the Cabal Theraphys for you, had you been satisfied with it, or did you wish, it was a Thoughtseize instead in some spots? Further had the side Tropical helped for casting Abrupt Decays and Xantids consitently?

Looking forward to see a Heart of Storm Vol. 6 :smile:

Greetz

I casted Therapy 4 (maybe 5) times that day: twice with Probe for a 1-for-1 and a 1-for-2 trade each and 2 times more as blanks, naming the only card that could have stopped me in those situations, missed both times and proceed to kill my opponent. Didn't miss Thoughtseize or the second SB Discard at all. Casting mid-size EtW's + getting free mindtwists off your graveyard is nasty

I never ran the SB Tropical and Bryant cutted it this week for the invitational. I'm the wrong Person to ask. :/

HotS Vol. 6 is scheduled for december, because I have a lot of work atm and can't even test enough for BoM, not to talk about playing tourneys and write reports. I started making notes yesterday with timed rounds, but with my first round opponent bitching the whole time while I was counting storm and mana in the double-digits about me taking too long to think, I got really pissed and stopped taking serious notes. All gou can read in the small report above is from fresh memory only, because I typed the report on my trainride home.



Small remark about R1 G3: I noticed he trimmed his removal in game 2, so I tried to next level him with Xantid in game 3 which I successfully landed T1 and negated his grip of 2 counterspells for my turn 2 Ad Nauseam ^_^

[Jaycounet]

on my side i was less efficient than lemnear

juste took the same decklist as bryant.

Won't talk about dice because i lost them all

Round 1 - strange reanimator / combo .

game 1 turn1 go for 14 goblin with no FOW. he cast griselbrand on his turn and draw 21 cards to find his own combo (strange deck ^^) but nothing. go to game 2
game 2 i've kept a hand to win if i draw tutor or ad nauseam. but right now i've nothing not brainstorm just dozen a mana if i want. he choose to startwith entomb. I cabal him with exhume stuff. my turn i drew IT. for adnaseam and the game

1-0

Round 2 - Goblin

he just say to me that he use to play storm without knowing that i'm playing storm ... ah ah ah he just add that he stop because he find it ennoying to play alone huhu

Game 1 - he plays caven name goblin go. go thoughseize on warren go. play goblin ringleader check 4 card and only kiki show his face. my turn adnaseaum for the kill it was quite tricky because i went to 2 to find enough ressource and all silence show their face
Game 2 - he did the same i try a brainstorm even i could make a turn 1 with chain in hand in case of thalia. he try a goblin his turn. I kill him on my turn.

2 - 0

Round 3 - TT

Game 1. Delver go. I've a hand to win probe him and see the spell snare (what !!) long time i haven't see this card ... so with my hand daze and pierce proof i can't do nothing. my hand was led *2 dark rit *2 rof * 2 BW*1. i've never drew any silence / discard during 5 turn
Game 2 was quite better but never find any tutor after i've thoughseize snare + cabal pierce + silence in hand + play 1 time ponder 2 time brainstorm ... bad luck is bad luck sometimes

2-1

Roun 4 - Patriot

Game 1 thoughseize him his ponder because he has almost nothing in hand and at least that will be hard for him to find counterspell. his turn delver go. i brainstorm. land drop and go. on delver un reveal daze ... go and add a second delver. Try to find a last mana source to go and go through daze now ..... on his second delver he drew pierce ... dam ! couldn't find any cabal and become low in life on my side. he add grim lavamancer on his side finnaly found 1 cabal go daze. + silence him. the main problem is that i'm a 5. i miss 1 mana to tendrill so the only solution is grapeshoot at least to clean the board. i kill the grim he answered by using it. i'm at 3 and i kill all his delver + 4 on him. i'm at 3 his turn he drew lightning bolt...
Game 2 : i have slow hand but keepable. i probe him i see a daze. pyroblast and few other thing and no land ... in fact 2 wasteland. ive to use my own land so brainstorm go i take another land from it he wast my land. i drop another one he waste it. and no more land on my side now we are in mode "top deck for a land" he drew volcanic delver go i drew a golden land + chrome. try to put chrome he force it ... try to brainstorm daze ... i just can't play. at the end in my cimetary you could find 2 chrome 2 petal 3 land and no way to win on my side. i've to grapeshoot everytning to maybe win ... i'm at 5 again he's at 9.... and he draw geist ... and me adnaseam with one missing mana to cast it and try to find the very last solution ...

2-2

I guess i didn't keep the right hand in game 3 and 4 anyway it was fun to play.

See you at the BOM ^^ and sorry for my english (i'm french ^^)

[Lemnear]

Head up Jay! Shit happens...

Another small remark: Didn't take a single mulligan the whole day! Maybe should have done in R2 G2 but the hand felt solid against discard.

[Jaycounet]

Head up Jay! Shit happens...



I'm ok with that i've finish 4th on my 2 last tournament one at 26 player the other one at 57 player so it's ok I can have bad karma sometimes

I fully agree that decay < win 1st turn

[Sinkhole]

I casted Therapy 4 (maybe 5) times that day: twice with Probe for a 1-for-1 and a 1-for-2 trade each and 2 times more as blanks, naming the only card that could have stopped me in those situations, missed both times and proceed to kill my opponent. Didn't miss Thoughtseize or the second SB Discard at all. Casting mid-size EtW's + getting free mindtwists off your graveyard is nasty

Think I`m also running Duress + Theraphy furthermore, because I didn`t come in any situation so far, where I really needed Thoughtseize. Duress + Theraphy worked out really well for me, so I think I stay on the duo. I`m running 3 Probes + 3 Duress + 1 Theraphy so far, because I just feel safer with 4 real protection spells (hope that I got enough courage for going down to 3 soon :tongue:), otherwise I will test a 2/2 Discard splitt.

I never ran the SB Tropical and Bryant cutted it this week for the invitational. I'm the wrong Person to ask. :/

A ok... My bad, readed false!

HotS Vol. 6 is scheduled for december, because I have a lot of work atm and can't even test enough for BoM, not to talk about playing tourneys and write reports. I started making notes yesterday with timed rounds, but with my first round opponent bitching the whole time while I was counting storm and mana in the double-digits about me taking too long to think, I got really pissed and stopped taking serious notes. All gou can read in the small report above is from fresh memory only, because I typed the report on my trainride home.



Small remark about R1 G3: I noticed he trimmed his removal in game 2, so I tried to next level him with Xantid in game 3 which I successfully landed T1 and negated his grip of 2 counterspells for my turn 2 Ad Nauseam ^_^

Nice line of mind tricking, playing with T.E.S often times feels more to me like playing Poker not Mtg... :laugh:

[Lemnear]

@Sinkhole

I urge you to play Probe as a 4-off and never ever board out a single one, because it exactly reveals how you have to play in certain situations.

It's impossible to deny the unholy triforce of EtW + G.Probe + Cabal Therapy in this deck and what's one of the reasons I maxed the Therapies. The other is that boarding discard for discard in creature-matchups feels quite retarded like my previous running of Pyroclasm alongside Grapeshot. A third reason is, that moving cardtype Independent discard to the MB free'd one more SB for me so I gained additional edges against Miracles, Counter-overloads and combo

[thefringthing]

I urge you to play Probe as a 4-off and never ever board out a single oneMan, I remember proposing that Git Probe might be playable in TES and getting immediately shot down about it. Heh.

[Lemnear]

Man, I remember proposing that Git Probe might be playable in TES and getting immediately shot down about it. Heh.

The joke is that ANT and TES develop towards each other in interations, but some peeps still pick up the small differences to fuel hatred or misinformation. (See Probe, see Therapy, see EtW, etc.) I'm very glad that Carsten and me both have a very clear view concerning our decks and get along very well unlike most peeps in this forum does.

[Kael]

Hey all,

Long time lurker on The Source, but never really got around to posting. Thought I'd start contributing now that the Storm Boards are more or less dead.

I've been playing TES for about a year and a half, occasionally stopping to toy around with DDFT, Painter, and ANT variants. I've never tried Telemin Performance, but it seems great in my metagame, which has a decent amount of storm, Reanimator, and TinFins. Definitely going to stick one in the sideboard for a local event tomorrow, I'll let you know how it goes.

[bennotsi]

Hey all,

Long time lurker on The Source, but never really got around to posting. Thought I'd start contributing now that the Storm Boards are more or less dead.

I've been playing TES for about a year and a half, occasionally stopping to toy around with DDFT, Painter, and ANT variants. I've never tried Telemin Performance, but it seems great in my metagame, which has a decent amount of storm, Reanimator, and TinFins. Definitely going to stick one in the sideboard for a local event tomorrow, I'll let you know how it goes.

I wouldn't know why you'd think that the stormboards are more or less dead. It's just a tad quiet because at the moment there isn't much to talk about that hasn't already been said.

Other than that, I'd love to hear how Telemin Performance is working out for you. Obviously, it's very meta dependent.

[Kael]

I suppose calling it dead isn't fair. The DDFT section still gets some activity, but it's one of the only places on the internet you can talk about that deck. There's nothing to really talk about in the TES thread, though. And considering 90% of the people who play in my metagame are on GBx discard decks or combo, TP should certainly see some action.

[Lemnear]

I suppose calling it dead isn't fair. The DDFT section still gets some activity, but it's one of the only places on the internet you can talk about that deck. There's nothing to really talk about in the TES thread, though. And considering 90% of the people who play in my metagame are on GBx discard decks or combo, TP should certainly see some action.

Dunno what you are talking about. DDFT is obsolete as a "life independent" storm engine since the printing of Past in Flames, ANT runs behind every metagame-shift and TES discussion is very active concerning the SB and the disruption suit. Especially in this thread there's unexpected much talk considering the fact that the latest expansions had almost Zero impact for the Legacy metagame.

[Kael]

Dunno what you are talking about. DDFT is obsolete as a "life independent" storm engine since the printing of Past in Flames, ANT runs behind every metagame-shift and TES discussion is very active concerning the SB and the disruption suit. Especially in this thread there's unexpected much talk considering the fact that the latest expansions had almost Zero impact for the Legacy metagame.

I disagree with your dismissal of DDFT as a deck, but regardless of it's obsolescence, people still play the deck, and when they want to have conversations about it, they do it on the storm boards. Hence, the DDFT section is still fairly active. The ANT thread hasn't been touched in a few weeks, and there hasn't been a word in the TES thread in months, which is problematic for me, given that it's the deck I run most often. Perhaps it'll see more activity with a significant metagame shift or spoiler, but in the meantime, I'll mostly be over here. I enjoy reading Cook's tournament reports, your Heart of the Storm series, and other people's reports, and I just feel that there's more discussion to contribute to here.

Anyways, not much to say about Telemin Performance. 4-0'd the event, but played against Nic Fit-Birthing Pod , DnT, Big Red, and Imperial Painter. Didn't get to use it.

[Final Fortune]

Dunno ... could be because englisch's only my 4th language; could be because you bring up examples I never saw or read about; could be because you miss my point about EtW being amazing against a disruption-plan which is based on creatures and therefore I expect sweepers leaving their mainboard then.

Your example is pretty much the kind I ranted about a few pages back and/or in another thread: It's pointless to discuss the efficiency of 3cc or 4cc cards like Venser, Glen Elendra, Bloodmoon, Arcane Lab, V.Clique an others against a deck which's capable to win during it's first few turns. I hope this topic doesn't develop into slinging some best-/worst-case-scenarios.



Edit: Dunno if I would feel too well with AN while running Thoughtseize and 2-3 Decays in postboard games against something like RW Goblins w/ Thalia

I still find Vendillion Clique relevant, whether or not TES has the ability to go off on turn 1 or 2 doesn't mean it can go off on turn 1 or 2 thru' disruption or permission, and Vendillion Clique tends to be accelerated by Deathrite Shaman and to a lesser extent Green Sun's Zenith so I assure you it's a very real consideration on turn 2. I'm guessing you just don't play against Vendillion Clique as much as I do, Miracles MDs them, RUG SBs them, Stoneblade MDs them beside Deathrite Shaman, BUG SBs them and MDs Deathrite Shaman etc.

Duress has lost me a lot of match ups because it couldn't take Vendillion Clique, whether or not you solve that broblem with Thought Seize or Cabal Therapy I think is really a matter of taste, but right now I'm pretty happy with 2 MD Thought Seize, 1 MD Cabal Therapy and 1 SB Cabal Therapy and I'm running 4 City of Brass, 2 Gemstone Mine instead of the usual set up and not really having problems with life loss. As much as people call TES an Ad Nauseam deck, the fact of the matter is that it kills with Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns, Past in Flames and tutor/cantrip chains combined more often anyway, and I don't think it's right to play strictly inferior cards for the sake of half our win condition.

English isn't my first language either, so no worries.

[Lemnear]

I still find Vendillion Clique relevant, whether or not TES has the ability to go off on turn 1 or 2 doesn't mean it can go off on turn 1 or 2 thru' disruption or permission, and Vendillion Clique tends to be accelerated by Deathrite Shaman and to a lesser extent Green Sun's Zenith so I assure you it's a very real consideration on turn 2. I'm guessing you just don't play against Vendillion Clique as much as I do, Miracles MDs them, RUG SBs them, Stoneblade MDs them beside Deathrite Shaman, BUG SBs them and MDs Deathrite Shaman etc.

Duress has lost me a lot of match ups because it couldn't take Vendillion Clique, whether or not you solve that broblem with Thought Seize or Cabal Therapy I think is really a matter of taste, but right now I'm pretty happy with 2 MD Thought Seize, 1 MD Cabal Therapy and 1 SB Cabal Therapy and I'm running 4 City of Brass, 2 Gemstone Mine instead of the usual set up and not really having problems with life loss. As much as people call TES an Ad Nauseam deck, the fact of the matter is that it kills with Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns, Past in Flames and tutor/cantrip chains combined more often anyway, and I don't think it's right to play strictly inferior cards for the sake of half our win condition.

English isn't my first language either, so no worries.

We have a lot of tempo around here but I never saw anyone playing GSZ into Dryad Arbor into Clique. Tbh Most peeps here aren't too Fond of Boarding 3cc Cards against Storm. I still apprechiated your Input to reconsider our disruption suit

[Final Fortune]

We have a lot of tempo around here but I never saw anyone playing GSZ into Dryad Arbor into Clique. Tbh Most peeps here aren't too Fond of Boarding 3cc Cards against Storm. I still apprechiated your Input to reconsider our disruption suit

Yeah, that explains a lot, I think you'll have to wait 'til True Name Nemesis enters the metagame and cards like GSZ and Noble Hierarch return to the metagame in order to accelerate him into play, at which point you're going to see T2 Clique the same way I do - as a real threat.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, that explains a lot, I think you'll have to wait 'til True Name Nemesis enters the metagame and cards like GSZ and Noble Hierarch return to the metagame in order to accelerate him into play, at which point you're going to see T2 Clique the same way I do - as a real threat.

There are a shitload of 3cc cards in existance that "kill us" if dropped via acceleration. Clique is just one of those. I'm looking forward to players tapping out for Hierarch/DRS and TNN

[paeng4983]

We just had our monthly legacy tournament. 42 players with me placing as the victor.
I had an exactly same list of 75 with Cook BUT my only difference was: his main has 2 Cabal and a Thoughtseize, WHILE I have 2 Thoughtseize and a Cabal in my 60.
The loss of life from the said TSs are not that significant. On average, my life total is at 11 to 15 whenever I go off with an Ad naus and I still manage to kill him with TOA.
For my tournament report, click my link below.

http://mtglegacy.freeforums.org/d4d-v-1st-placer-with-tes-t8.html

Pictures of the D4D event below. Tiyo Paeng is my name here
http://www.syntaxassassin.com/d4d5/

@Cook,
How's your invitational weekend?

@Lem and other Euro TES Players,
Wish you all the luck and good draws and good MUs!

[.Ix]

Congrats Paeng! I've never seen so many Elves in a Manila top 8.

[paeng4983]

Congrats Paeng! I've never seen so many Elves in a Manila top 8.

Ruric Thar something like that, is the name of their new toy. And it really annoys U-decks and storm too.
Maybe that's the reason why no U-deck is on top for today in our field. I hope to see you anytime soon here. You take good care there in the south bro!
^_^

[Lemnear]

Congratz dood!

Edit: I hope I don't get unluckily "eliminated" by all the hatebear.decs and MUD in the first rounds.

[Bryant Cook]

The weekend was pretty unsuccessful for me. I went 2-2 in the Legacy portion of the Invitational with a BYE, my losses were to being just goldfished against Dredge and to Reanimator. I beat Sneak & Show by playing pretty tight. The legacy open was just miserable, lost to ANT round one and post round two. Both were just cases of super unfortunate events, like having an Emrakul hardcast against me turn three on the play.

Thoughtseize was great. I plan on continuing to play it.

[Lemnear]

The weekend was pretty unsuccessful for me. I went 2-2 in the Legacy portion of the Invitational with a BYE, my losses were to being just goldfished against Dredge and to Reanimator. I beat Sneak & Show by playing pretty tight. The legacy open was just miserable, lost to ANT round one and post round two. Both were just cases of super unfortunate events, like having an Emrakul hardcast against me turn three on the play.

Thoughtseize was great. I plan on continuing to play it.


That's sad news. Still Sounds like a metagame for TP blowouts

[Machahiko]

Post confirmed to be the best deck 2013 destroying the dreams of conquest and sanity of combo players all around the world.

[Bryant Cook]

Part of me wonders how much we need Abrupt Decay in the current metagame. Those are three sideboard slots that could be used to improve other match-ups.

[trollking21]

Part of me wonders how much we need Abrupt Decay in the current metagame. Those are three sideboard slots that could be used to improve other match-ups.

What card(s) would you play instead?

[Tom T]

Past weekend I played at the Legacy Championship at Grand Prix Antwerp. Went 4-4 on a very tiring day. 8 rounds being the longest tournament I've played with this deck so far.

I played BC's main deck with -1 CT, +1 Thoughtseize.
Sideboard:
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Past in Flames
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Pyroclasm
1x Telemin Performance

I faced: 2x ANT, 1x TES, 1x BURG, 1x Jund, 1x Goblins, 1x Maverick, 1x UR Punishing Control.

The TP was used once in the first game against TES and I could have gone for an other line of play without it. There was a lot of High Tide in the room, but I guess I would be afraid of a main deck Cloud of Faeries. I didn't face any Show and Tell decks or Reanimator so I don't know if it would be great against those decks.

The 2 main deck Thoughtseize's were awesome, except against the BURG player. I really missed my Duresses there and with the inclusion of Thoughtseize I guess the Tempo matchup is horrible (however there are a lot of 'bad' Tempo players).

Pyroclasm is awesome. Saturday I won through a couple of hatebears because of it, and it works great against Meddling Mage surrounded with DRS, Confidants and other friends. This card saved my ass a couple of times against a lethal board position + hatebear.

Abrupt Decay was a waste of space the entire weekend. I didn't face Counterbalance or Chalice and I think those could also be answered by our discard or an Empty the Warrens line. Next to that I think Abrupt Decay only works against MUD or hatebears in magical christmas land because of Wasteland/Rishadan Port. Now, Shattering Spree or something else would be slightly better I guess.

EDIT: Also, I think with the inclusion of Thoughtseize, 2 Cabal Therapy in the 75 would be enough. However against Tempo you want 4 MD discard + 1 SB discard.

[Kael]

Past weekend I played at the Legacy Championship at Grand Prix Antwerp. Went 4-4 on a very tiring day. 8 rounds being the longest tournament I've played with this deck so far.

I played BC's main deck with -1 CT, +1 Thoughtseize.
Sideboard:
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Past in Flames
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Pyroclasm
1x Telemin Performance

I faced: 2x ANT, 1x TES, 1x BURG, 1x Jund, 1x Goblins, 1x Maverick, 1x UR Punishing Control.

The TP was used once in the first game against TES and I could have gone for an other line of play without it. There was a lot of High Tide in the room, but I guess I would be afraid of a main deck Cloud of Faeries. I didn't face any Show and Tell decks or Reanimator so I don't know if it would be great against those decks.

The 2 main deck Thoughtseize's were awesome, except against the BURG player. I really missed my Duresses there and with the inclusion of Thoughtseize I guess the Tempo matchup is horrible (however there are a lot of 'bad' Tempo players).

Pyroclasm is awesome. Saturday I won through a couple of hatebears because of it, and it works great against Meddling Mage surrounded with DRS, Confidants and other friends. This card saved my ass a couple of times against a lethal board position + hatebear.

Abrupt Decay was a waste of space the entire weekend. I didn't face Counterbalance or Chalice and I think those could also be answered by our discard or an Empty the Warrens line. Next to that I think Abrupt Decay only works against MUD or hatebears in magical christmas land because of Wasteland/Rishadan Port. Now, Shattering Spree or something else would be slightly better I guess.

EDIT: Also, I think with the inclusion of Thoughtseize, 2 Cabal Therapy in the 75 would be enough. However against Tempo you want 4 MD discard + 1 SB discard.

When you say you could have gone for another line of play, do you mean you had a guaranteed path to victory and used TP instead, or you used the 0-variance TP kill instead of a PiF/DR line that had a small chance of failure?

I have to agree with you and Cook on Abrupt Decay. I haven't decayed a Counterbalance in quite awhile, and Decaying a hatebear usually ends up being complicated by Wasteland/Port.

[Tom T]

When you say you could have gone for another line of play, do you mean you had a guaranteed path to victory and used TP instead, or you used the 0-variance TP kill instead of a PiF/DR line that had a small chance of failure?

I have to agree with you and Cook on Abrupt Decay. I haven't decayed a Counterbalance in quite awhile, and Decaying a hatebear usually ends up being complicated by Wasteland/Port.

TP instead of AN from 15 life. Team Nijmegen and a group of german ANT players came up with some fresh ideas which I might test.

[Lemnear]

TP instead of AN from 15 life. Team Nijmegen and a group of german ANT players came up with some fresh ideas which I might test.

For MB or SB? Would be interrested in those ideas ... leaving for BoM in 2 Days

[Bahamuth]

For MB or SB? Would be interrested in those ideas ... leaving for BoM in 2 Days

Standstill SB. We think it has potential since TES can play it turn 1 easily, and playing it over a single creature might still be good enough. A lot of the BUG lists play a lot of discard and almost no countermagic. If you play it over a single creature, you can probably just draw-go forever and then just kill them with a single protection spell.

At least that's the idea. No testing has been done.

[P-E]

good luck guys
i'll look for top8 to see some TES players !!!

[Lemnear]

Standstill SB. We think it has potential since TES can play it turn 1 easily, and playing it over a single creature might still be good enough. A lot of the BUG lists play a lot of discard and almost no countermagic. If you play it over a single creature, you can probably just draw-go forever and then just kill them with a single protection spell.

At least that's the idea. No testing has been done.

Thx for the quick response. The idea Sounds a lot like running Ignorant Bliss but is a lot better against the overall field and to fight creatures. Sadly the Card appears pretty useless on the draw (T1 drop is not guaranteed even with 4 Petal / 3 Chrome Mox) especially against Daze/Pierce/Snare and discard. It's interresting, but I doubt I have enough time to give it a spin for now :/

[Bahamuth]

Thx for the quick response. The idea Sounds a lot like running Ignorant Bliss but is a lot better against the overall field and to fight creatures. Sadly the Card appears pretty useless on the draw (T1 drop is not guaranteed even with 4 Petal / 3 Chrome Mox) especially against Daze/Pierce/Snare and discard. It's interresting, but I doubt I have enough time to give it a spin for now :/

Well, if the card gets Spell Pierced, you're probably fine with that, and the idea is that most decks that run discard don't really run Daze. The card is probably still pretty bad if he does turn 1 Deathrite turn 2 some creature though, so it might only be good enough on the play, and then it's probably not worth it. I'm just not sure at all.

[oSeabass]

It is probably way to slow, but what about something like Ancestral Visions? You can play it turn 1 against something running discard. You then spend the next couple of turns priming by disrupting as much as you can. Doesn't hurt from AN, since it costs 0. It's blue to be used in a pinch for Chrome Mox. I am a lot less familiar with sideboarded games, but it seems that the theme is the deck slows down a little bit when it bring out Ponder and IT to bring in more discard to hit the extra counters that come in to play a "grindier" game.

[Tom T]

It is probably way to slow, but what about something like Ancestral Visions? You can play it turn 1 against something running discard. You then spend the next couple of turns priming by disrupting as much as you can. Doesn't hurt from AN, since it costs 0. It's blue to be used in a pinch for Chrome Mox. I am a lot less familiar with sideboarded games, but it seems that the theme is the deck slows down a little bit when it bring out Ponder and IT to bring in more discard to hit the extra counters that come in to play a "grindier" game.

Other than on the first turn Ancestral Vision is too slow. It's a terrible topdeck. TES loses grind games against those decks because the opponent plays a clock, Liliana and/or Dark Confidant in the meantime.

Standstill is also a terrible topdeck beyond the second turn if you didn't Silence some turns I guess.

Anyway, I'm not having a terrible time against (just) discard decks but more against Tempo decks and UBx decks lately.

EDIT: Just came by Library of Leng as an answer to discard. Any thoughts?

[oSeabass]

Anyway, I'm not having a terrible time against (just) discard decks but more against Tempo decks and UBx decks lately.

I have found tempo decks to be the hardest for me because I am still learning the sideboard tools in certain spots. I don't pull the trigger on Diminishing Returns as much as I feel I should be, but against decks like Delver I am hesitant to do this without a resolved Silence. Waiting for that spot, normally means I am taking a loss of a lot of life due to some creature smacking me down.

Against discard like BUG, I am torn between using Silence to stop one of the few counters they could have, or use it to Silence walk them on critical turns 2 and 3 (Hymn, Liliana). I am learning the value of turn 1 LED and Lotus Petal into play instead of holding them, because holding them means a resolved discard spell slows down our explosiveness later. This is something I will learn in time a little more once I lose to discard hitting LED and I kick myself for not playing it. This theory also applies to Thalia and other "+1 cost" type effects (Thorn, Thalia, etc.).

The discard decks seem a little easier as they run less counters, so playing mana out early and using Brainstorm defensively I think helps make that easier. Resolved Liliana is tough, and them having the rare counter pre board is tough. I find decks like Delver way tougher without a hand of instant speed mana ramp to pay for Daze/Spell Pierce effects.

[oSeabass]

EDIT: Just came by Library of Leng as an answer to discard. Any thoughts?

Seems nice. I feel like it saves you when the 1 card you need is lost, but I think it could make a bad situation worse. If you are stuck with stuff on top already due to a Brainstorm and no fetch (which you tried to dig with), having two more "dead" cards on top makes it a tough situation. The deck has enough repetition of threats and cantrip/filtering, is the discard really THAT bad since it is only sorcery speed and we should be able to see it coming? I'd rather have another Therapy or Thoughtseize, Therapy naming Hymn if you think it's coming and Thoughtseize deals with it anyway.

[Tom T]

I have found tempo decks to be the hardest for me because I am still learning the sideboard tools in certain spots. I don't pull the trigger on Diminishing Returns as much as I feel I should be, but against decks like Delver I am hesitant to do this without a resolved Silence. Waiting for that spot, normally means I am taking a loss of a lot of life due to some creature smacking me down.

Against discard like BUG, I am torn between using Silence to stop one of the few counters they could have, or use it to Silence walk them on critical turns 2 and 3 (Hymn, Liliana). I am learning the value of turn 1 LED and Lotus Petal into play instead of holding them, because holding them means a resolved discard spell slows down our explosiveness later. This is something I will learn in time a little more once I lose to discard hitting LED and I kick myself for not playing it. This theory also applies to Thalia and other "+1 cost" type effects (Thorn, Thalia, etc.).

The discard decks seem a little easier as they run less counters, so playing mana out early and using Brainstorm defensively I think helps make that easier. Resolved Liliana is tough, and them having the rare counter pre board is tough. I find decks like Delver way tougher without a hand of instant speed mana ramp to pay for Daze/Spell Pierce effects.

BUG usually has more discard than counterspells so silence walking is OK. However, you could counter discard with a combination of: your own discard spells (if you still have them in your deck), Brainstorm, 2+ business spells, a lot of rituals, plenty of lands. Then you can use Silence before going off.

Also, keep in mind that BUG usually plays Abrupt Decay so take a moment to think before you jam artifacts on the table. Keeping your Lotus Petals and Moxen in your hand is usually better except when you suspect a Hymn to Tourach and the other cards in your hand are less valuable.
Sunday I lost a match because I played a Lotus Petal in the early turns and was 1 storm short of a lethal Tendrils 4/5 turns later. I didn't notice this until Bahamuth pointed it out to me.

Library of Leng is too narrow, card disadvantage and most likely redundant. For the time being I'll play 1 (maybe 2) Orim's Chant in the board.

EDIT:

Seems nice. I feel like it saves you when the 1 card you need is lost, but I think it could make a bad situation worse. If you are stuck with stuff on top already due to a Brainstorm and no fetch (which you tried to dig with), having two more "dead" cards on top makes it a tough situation.
Library has a 'may' ability.

[oSeabass]

Also, keep in mind that BUG usually plays Abrupt Decay so take a moment to think before you jam artifacts on the table. Keeping your Lotus Petals and Moxen in your hand is usually better except when you suspect a Hymn to Tourach and the other cards in your hand are less valuable.

I guess counter discard is the way to go then. I feel like I haven't yet learned the full potential of protecting a hand with Brainstorm to put needed cards on top in response to discard. I feel if I had a Ponder in hand and was "close" to going off, I would get greedy and cast Ponder with a single U open instead of saving the U for a Brainstorm response to discard.


Library has a 'may' ability.

Makes it a little better. I agree it is still too narrow. You bring it in just for decks like BUG and nothing else really. Having another discard spell like Therapy or TS out of the board seems more flexible, and just better 99% of the time.

[Bahamuth]

Putting cards on top doesn't really do enough.

[Lemnear]

Putting cards on top doesn't really do enough.

You invest mana and a card (Library) just for getting cards ontop instead of your GY? No, it does really not enough.

If you have real issues with discard/combo you may try Mystic Remora

[Bryant Cook]

As useless as Decay has been, I've decided it's utility (Counterbalance, Chalice, Gaddock Teeg & Thalia) is too important to cut. But I am moving it's number back down to two, meaning I currently have one open slot and possibly a second to work with if I move down to one sideboard protection slot. I'm just unsure of what to put there.

[paeng4983]

As useless as Decay has been, I've decided it's utility (Counterbalance, Chalice, Gaddock Teeg & Thalia) is too important to cut. But I am moving it's number back down to two, meaning I currently have one open slot and possibly a second to work with if I move down to one sideboard protection slot. I'm just unsure of what to put there.

I'm toying the idea of bringing back Deathmark in place of the 3rd AD. Especially during game ones where you don't have a main deck answer to decks that abuses Thalia or dredge with main Iona, there are times that only the Wishes show up and the SB cards are not. So having this sorcery removal of a G or W creature comes in handy.

Pyroclasm is another thing.

Or can even be Shattering Spree.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm toying the idea of bringing back Deathmark in place of the 3rd AD. Especially during game ones where you don't have a main deck answer to decks that abuses Thalia or dredge with main Iona, there are times that only the Wishes show up and the SB cards are not. So having this sorcery removal of a G or W creature comes in handy.

Pyroclasm is another thing.

Or can even be Shattering Spree.

Iona didn't name Red or Black? Do you play against awful people a lot?

Pyroclasm just isn't worth it, I never want it. We have Grapeshot.

Spree's uses are just too narrow.