[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Bryant Cook]

That makes a little more sense, then. Going to edit the first post accordingly?

Updated the opening post, you whiney fuck.

It includes my current strategy at combating Maverick with and without Mind Break Trap.

[thefringthing]

Mindbreak Trap is certainly frustrating. For some reason, that's the hate card that bothers me the most, despite being far from the most unbeatable. There's nothing quite like those times when their only out is to have ripped Trap on their turn and they have it.

[Pelikanudo]

@TheOneAbove:

One conclusion I reached is that M.B.T is NOT as good vs us,
Things to have in mind:
Ex: it counters 3rd spell, so in some situations you can play for example: land, LED, Chrome mox, petal on 1st Turn, land and I.T. -> A.N on 2nd turn , at this point you will be able to cast A.N which will be the 2nd spell. I main, in here the goal is to not to play A.N. as a 3rd spell, is rare, but is +1 to have in mind.

The rest of things are quite trivial.

[thefringthing]

It is definitely possible to play around Mindbreak Trap. It's one of the easier hate cards to beat. There's just something about it that irks me on an emotional level for whatever reason.

[TerribleTim68]

Can't you just chant 'em before you go off? Doesn't that stop them from playing the trap after you've run it all out? It seems pretty simple to answer to me. I know when I'm playing against blue I do everything I can to chant them first, period. That strategy has served me well. Seems like it would be the same thing in this case.

[Rekk]

^ yes you can just chant.

But clearly the issue wasn't that a counterspell is hard for tes to beat. actually no one has said that, the issue from what i read was that it simply was an annoying card to lose too.
no more no less.

The real thing that sucks is turn one mom turn two thalia/cannonist/tegg

[COBBLER]

Virtue's Ruin or Infest beats that

[Koby]

Probably a variance issue, but lately I've really wanted main deck Empty the Warrens against RUG Tempo.

Yeah, I know the second Ad Nauseam is better in all other match ups, but RUG is pissing me off.

I win the die roll. He mulls to five.
I turn one Ad Nauseam. He Forces.
He draws for his turn and passes.
I turn two Ad Nauseam. He Forces.

Jajajajajajajaja.

Wow that's almost as annoying as Turn 1 Delver blind flip revealing Forked Bolt, eat 2 of my x/1's, 2nd Delver, FoW the StP targeting the first one, then blind flip the 2nd Delver revealing Bolt. Hurp-durp I R gud at Majic.

[Rekk]

Virtue's Ruin or Infest beats that

:0 really?!

thank you i'm completely aware...

[COBBLER]

Well your complaining about hate bears much easier to deal with then counterspells in general.

[thefringthing]

Testing something that looks roughly like the "Long.dec" list Karsten posted in his most article. Reforge the Soul certainly enables some ludicrous storm counts very early.

[Darkness]

I know it's early for the month of April and all of it's results but this really made me happy.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/brokenbyadove/ScreenShot2012-04-20at70109AM-2.jpg

[Zeisse]

Hi

I am Eneko Mendibe the player who is writing the articles Road to Annecy with TES in manainfinito.

Sorry for my English, I understand everything you write, but I can hardly write, so I use a translator.

Here are the videos of the game I played against UW Stoneblade in March ELL.

http://manainfinito.com/videos/ell-2012-marzo-ronda5-eneko-mendibe-tes-vs-ricardo-d-az-uw-stoneblade


This is the article of the April leagues (spanish)

http://manainfinito.com/articulos/legacy/road-annecy-2012-con-tes-report-ell-y-llg

2nd in the ELL with 47 players and 1st in the LLG with 36 players.

[Rekk]

Well your complaining about hate bears much easier to deal with then counterspells in general.

i was saying no one read what the other guy actually posted. then i said hate bears are harder then mbt... (the counterspell in question)

[Matt]

Well, we hardly ever leave our chant effects in against non-blue match-ups (Dredge being the exception? :p). As, Inquisition (and bounce) tends to be more useful in those match-ups (hits Pillar, Thorn, Chalice, Thalia..). Ironically, non-blue decks occasionally run Mindbreak trap, while blue decks rarely do (better alternatives). I remember Bryant saying he never plays around Mindbreak trap game two against Goblins. So, it's not as simple as "playing chant to get around it". As, Mindbreak Trap isn't played enough to side against it game two (leaving chant effects in). But, at the risk of stating the obvious, Mindbreak Trap can single handedly steal a game from us. I believe this is ultimately what frightens some people. That, it's almost a misplay to side against Mindbreak Trap game two, but you run the risk of smashing into it regardless.

[COBBLER]

In my Experience ,for goblin players at least, they mulligan to mindbreak trap at any cost so it seems wise not to run into it I mean its not that hard to find a duress or whatever to play around it.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

This comes up every now and then, but how often do you guys keep the following hand?

Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, Silence, Rite of Flame

I'm usually OK keeping this hand at my LGS when I'm up a game, but in most cases will ship it for a better six. At larger events, I find this an auto-mull.

[Awaclus]

This comes up every now and then, but how often do you guys keep the following hand?

Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, Silence, Rite of Flame

I'm usually OK keeping this hand at my LGS when I'm up a game, but in most cases will ship it for a better six. At larger events, I find this an auto-mull.
I'd keep it if I knew that the opponent isn't running LD and doesn't win very fast. Which pretty much means that I would never keep it against a competitive Legacy deck.

[thefringthing]

I throw it back. Even if you rip a black source, you lose to Force of Will if you try to go off immediately.

[Matt]

I think taking a mulligan would be the correct play. Though, I'm guilty of keeping on occasion too. What about...

Brainstorm, Ponder, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish

Pretty janky to say the least. Unfortunately, I find hands like this to be a common occurrence, for me at least. I generally keep, then question the correctness of such a play for the remainder of the game...

[thefringthing]

I often have trouble deciding on Brainstorm, Ponder, Chrome Mox hands too. I think I usually keep them on the draw and throw them back on the play.

[Pelikanudo]

Regarding to this:
Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, Silence, Rite of Flame
- I'll keep this hand, I mean, you only need Land or Mox or Petal (Independant Mana Sources), for the rest you have Protection , Threats and Dependant Mana Sources. and you can play LED so that you 're not discarded, so you have 2 turns.

Related to the one with mox and ponder and brainstorm- Brainstorm, Ponder, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish:
-I'll keep this hand also.
I mean play mox, imprint brainstorm and play Ponder, thats simple.

Above all keep in mind that this deck is the best deck to demonstrate statistics in magic and the first hand has all you need except Independant Mana Sources.

Just my opinion, Bryant your thinkings?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Regarding to this:
Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, Silence, Rite of Flame
- I'll keep this hand,
I mean, you only need Land or Mox or Petal (Independant Mana Sources), for the rest you have Protection , Threats and Dependant Mana Sources. and you can play LED so that you 're not discarded, so you have 2 turns.

Related to the one with mox and ponder and brainstorm.
-I'll keep this hand also.
I mean play mox, imprint brainstorm and play Ponder, thats simple.

Above all keep in mind that this deck is the best deck to demonstrate statistics in magic and the first hand has all you need except Independant Mana Sources.

Just my opinion, Bryant your thinkings?

You can also just as easily brick for 10 turns and fucking lose.

EDIT: Countertop is probably a better example of your "statistics in Magic"

[Pelikanudo]

You can also just as easily brick for 10 turns and fucking lose.

EDIT: Countertop is probably a better example of your "statistics in Magic"

Yes, I agree, but as Bryant said, "Shit happens.".

[leegoo]

This comes up every now and then, but how often do you guys keep the following hand?

Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, Silence, Rite of Flame

I'm usually OK keeping this hand at my LGS when I'm up a game, but in most cases will ship it for a better six. At larger events, I find this an auto-mull.

No way. Needs too much to beat any disruption, and you need to draw an initial source before it does anything at all. Way too many if's.

[Dia_Bot]

No way. Needs too much to beat any disruption, and you need to draw an initial source before it does anything at all. Way too many if's.

Agreed. I would also not keep this.

It's certainly not a case of "Shit happens." if you kept a hand you shouldn't have kept to begin with.

[thefringthing]

Wesley Surber is on camera playing TES at SCGAL right now. He just ran headfirst into Force of Will in game one.
EDIT: And again in game two, but he pulled it out somehow.
EDIT: Game three he bricks on Ad Nauseam, makes goblins on the next turn. Dies to Show and Tell + Hive Mind + two pacts.
Some pretty crummy plays on both sides. Commentators (Joey Pasco and Mike Flores) had to ask Twitter to tell them how Lion's Eye Diamond works.

[Basaka]

Those were some horrible, horrible plays. He should have just chanted him and went for an Iggy loop or something...

Also, did he not have PiF or something, would have won right up with silence backup most likely.

[Michael Keller]

Wesley Surber is on camera playing TES at SCGAL right now. He just ran headfirst into Force of Will in game one.
EDIT: And again in game two, but he pulled it out somehow.
EDIT: Game three he bricks on Ad Nauseam, makes goblins on the next turn. Dies to Show and Tell + Hive Mind + two pacts.
Some pretty crummy plays on both sides.

Sounds like a typical SCG's feature match.

[Sloshthedark]

Wesley Surber is on camera playing TES at SCGAL right now. He just ran headfirst into Force of Will in game one.
EDIT: And again in game two, but he pulled it out somehow.
EDIT: Game three he bricks on Ad Nauseam, makes goblins on the next turn. Dies to Show and Tell + Hive Mind + two pacts.
Some pretty crummy plays on both sides. Commentators (Joey Pasco and Mike Flores) had to ask Twitter to tell them how Lion's Eye Diamond works.

that match was just ridiculous accident, real pain watching all the ignorance

[thefringthing]

Also, did he not have PiF or something, would have won right up with silence backup most likely.Commentators confirmed after the match that he did not have Past in Flames in his 75.

[sconnell]

Regarding to this:
Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, Silence, Rite of Flame
- I'll keep this hand, I mean, you only need Land or Mox or Petal (Independant Mana Sources), for the rest you have Protection , Threats and Dependant Mana Sources. and you can play LED so that you 're not discarded, so you have 2 turns.

Related to the one with mox and ponder and brainstorm- Brainstorm, Ponder, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish:
-I'll keep this hand also.
I mean play mox, imprint brainstorm and play Ponder, thats simple.

Above all keep in mind that this deck is the best deck to demonstrate statistics in magic and the first hand has all you need except Independant Mana Sources.

Hand 1. 4 petal + 4 mox + 13 land = 21 cards you want to draw, leaving 53-21 = 32 cards you don't want to draw.

Over one turn, your chance of drawing no mana source is 32/53=~60%

Over two turns:
your chance of drawing 0 mana sources is ~36%,
your chance of drawing 1 mana source is ~49%, and
your chance of drawing 2 mana sources is ~15%.

36% chance of drawing nothing over 2 turns is pretty high. Although the hand appears to have protection, the chance of casting Silence before trying to go off is fairly low.

Hand 2. Chrome -> Ponder hands are a pain but not as bad as the first hand. My decision on value that hand would depend on the matchup and play/draw.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Sounds like a typical SCG's feature match.

The kid made top eight.

Wesley Surber

Artifacts
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Instants
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
2 Orim's Chant
2 Silence

Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Rite of Flame
1 Tendrils of Agony

Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
3 Deathmark
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Silent Departure
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Virtue's Ruin

[Dark Ritual]

He had IGG in his board and he wished for EtW? He just deserves to lose that match against hive mind then. Chant him, ritual into BW, into IGG loop, into the win. While empty the warrens is GODAWFUL in the combo mirror, the only time I ever go for EtW in the combo mirror is if I can make 12+ goblins turn one on the play and even then, I'll agonize over what my opponent might have. Most of the time I'll refuse to go for EtW in the combo mirror, as I'm basically saying "if you have the combo that instantly kills me, you win." Punts all around.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

He had IGG in his board and he wished for EtW? He just deserves to lose that match against hive mind then. Chant him, ritual into BW, into IGG loop, into the win. While empty the warrens is GODAWFUL in the combo mirror, the only time I ever go for EtW in the combo mirror is if I can make 12+ goblins turn one on the play and even then, I'll agonize over what my opponent might have. Most of the time I'll refuse to go for EtW in the combo mirror, as I'm basically saying "if you have the combo that instantly kills me, you win." Punts all around.

He seems overall weaker to Maverick and has no outs to Chalice decks other than Shattering Spree.

Must had some seriously lucky pairings.

[paeng4983]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23666-TES-Manila&p=637883#post637883

I just used this deck for two legacy tournaments here in Manila.
The 1st landing at 3rd. And the other one, I simply scrub-out.

Wish into infest against those GW mavs, really great.

thanks for reading.
:-)

[Dark Ritual]

He seems overall weaker to Maverick and has no outs to Chalice decks other than Shattering Spree.

Must had some seriously lucky pairings.

Either that or incredible luck/running hot, as sometimes you just win the die roll and go turn 1/2 ad nauseam into the win every match against a nonblue deck or the blue player just lacks interaction. Running hot is a thing that happens to all of us occasionally (I hope) as luck is part of the game and when you're the luckiest person in the room, you don't have to be good. My favorite expression in magic is "better to be lucky than good" as I've seen some people play incredibly tight and still lose due to bricking on draws in a match or having their opponent rip the nuts. My guess is this guy was just running hot that day and top 8'ed because of it.

[thommoi]

Hey guys,
have been on a 131 person tournament on Saturday (report on demand)... Went 6-3, missing top 8. Lost to Show and Tell (once with Sneak Attack, once with Hive Mind) twice.
Any suggestions on SBing or general gameplay against those decks? Felt like I never had a shot...
Thanks. :smile:
P.S. @Bryant: Thanks a lot for keeping the primer/SB-plans up to date. Really, really appriciate it.
EDIT: Feels like this is one of the MUs where Pyroblast would have been better than IoK...

[Matt]

Show and Tell and Spiral Tide are both interesting match-ups (they're very similar in my opinion). They generally take on the control role while we hold true to combo. But, because both pilots are playing combo, games are often fast and one-sided. Which, can make the match-up appear much worse or better than it really is... It's about even. We're slightly stronger against Spiral Tide, IMO, as our chant effects become really relevant. Duress/IoK is awkward against these decks, as we generally have to choose between counters or combo pieces. I'd personally go -1 Ponder, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor for +3 IoK. The 4th IoK wouldn't hurt; I just feel like three is adequate enough without affecting speed. Ps. We were easily favorable against these match-ups before the addition of IoK. But, I'm very happy with the change.
-Matthew

[Sloshthedark]

Hey guys,
have been on a 131 person tournament on Saturday (report on demand)... Went 6-3, missing top 8. Lost to Show and Tell (once with Sneak Attack, once with Hive Mind) twice.
Any suggestions on SBing or general gameplay against those decks? Felt like I never had a shot...
Thanks. :smile:
P.S. @Bryant: Thanks a lot for keeping the primer/SB-plans up to date. Really, really appriciate it.
EDIT: Feels like this is one of the MUs where Pyroblast would have been better than IoK...

Is that so? I'm playing UBr storm and haven't lost to these deck in a tournament yet... your life actually matters in TES, but I think you still should be favored and faster.. I don't know how often you could go through alternative engines, still 0 permanents 5 life is and option, they haven't killed you yet
their combo is slow - when they show and tell, you should show and kill your turn... against hive mind - just lay down artifact mana and pay the pacts with LED and rituals if they dare
They often try to mulligan into leyline G2 disrupting themselves with bad hands and draws, you play Silence so your plan A is does not require bounce like mine...

it's unfortunate Extirpate does not fit in TES SB, its great in both match-ups, it blanks their combo parts as they are forced to play Intuition to compete

[thommoi]

Well, in those games (and I am totally lacking further experience in these MUs) situations like this one occured:
Play IoK, see: 2 FoW, Intuition, Hive Mind, Pact of whatever, Show and Tell...) - So whatever I take (Pact, Intuition or Show and Tell) - he either has the combo or gets the other part with Intuition and still has at least one FoW online...
I'll admit that I may have kept a very weak hand - or at least one without Chant/Silence (which is so great against Leyline of Sanctity). Going off through double FoW was impossible.
I'll try and get some testing games in against this kind of deck... Maybe I will understand what I did wrong.
Thanks for the advice! :smile:

[j_rb]

Hey guys,
have been on a 131 person tournament on Saturday (report on demand)... Went 6-3, missing top 8. Lost to Show and Tell (once with Sneak Attack, once with Hive Mind) twice.
Any suggestions on SBing or general gameplay against those decks?

In my experience playing this deck, Hive Mind is a really, REALLY easy MU once you learn how to properly play it because, for the most part, you can pay for any pact they throw at you. It only gets really scary when they t1 show and tell emrakrul into play.... Artifact mana + dark rits are good here.

For sneak attack I run a 3 silence 2 chant split because leyline is played more in my area. It seems if the sneaky show deck doesn't have the nuts you just roll over them with silence. Pyroblast was great in this MU but the MU is still easily winnable without it. Duress is always better than Iok against these type of decks.

Another piece of advice, always expect leyline of sanctity from decks running show and tell, but I'm sure you already know this.

[KevinTrudeau]

I tried out the 2 Chant, 2 Silence, 3 Duress, 1 Inquisition config tonight in a weekly and really liked it; it made sideboarding much easier, as it basically added an additional slot. I will likely be playing it from here on out, barring the bullshit ass new set drastically changing the metagame (it probably won't). Still undecided on an optimal sideboard config.

[Bryant Cook]

I tried out the 2 Chant, 2 Silence, 3 Duress, 1 Inquisition config tonight in a weekly and really liked it; it made sideboarding much easier, as it basically added an additional slot. I will likely be playing it from here on out, barring the bullshit ass new set drastically changing the metagame (it probably won't). Still undecided on an optimal sideboard config.

That's why I originally did it, the extra sideboard slot was huge.

[Machahiko]

How do you guys side against decks that:
1. Might play Leyline of Sanctity
2. Are known to play Leyline of Sanctity

Would be interesting to hear what you do. Played a few games against a friend of mine, who played Dream Halls combo with sideboard that has mindbreak traps and leyline of sanctitys. Maindeck has Spell Pierces and FoWs. At first I tried boarding in multiple Inqusition's, but they were really useless and they're not that good against Dream Halls anyways in my opinion. In the later games I kept Duress' in the board, but took only one Inqusition of Kozilek in. The plan was something like:

-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Infernal Tutor
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Inqusition of Kozilek

I'm not sure are there any additional cards to bring in, on the other hand I thought about siding Orim's Chant out instead of Ponder, but it's just way too valuable in my opinion. The deck packs so much counter spells that I decided to leave them untouched.

The games were played using the latest decklist by Bryant.

[TBryant23]

Hey, I've been "lurking" on these forums for a while, but finally decided to post a small tournament report and a small introduction. My name is Taylor, I live in Tennessee, I have played magic since Onslaught block, but didn't start playing tournaments until Time Spiral block. My first competitive deck was G/B "Goyf Rack". I have never had any huge successes, unfortunately, due to an inability to play one deck in a format; I'm a deckaholic. I've got about one year left of undergraduate classes left before I go to law school. Hopefully before then I can get some kind of respectable finish under my belt, as I hear law school is kind of time consuming. Without further ado, here's the tournament report:

Deck: Storm Combo
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox

4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
3 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
2 Ad Nauseum

4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
3 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Shattering Spree
1 Infest
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

Pretty standard list and SB. The tournament was a weekly event in Dalton, Georgia about 45 minutes from my house. I met up with my buddy and his wife and we drove. On the way we talked about the hilarity that is the SCG coverage and other random stuff. We get there and there is already eight or so players signed up. With the three of us and the couple of people that showed up, there ended up being around 15 people. Not bad for Thursday Night Legacy.

Round 1-Mark with LED Dredge
Mark is a nice guy just starting to get into Legacy. He usually plays burn or merfolk. I put him on burn, and kept a hand of Gemstone Mine, Brainstorm, LED, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, 2 other cards on the play. He plays Gemstone Mine, Breakthrough for 0, flashes back Faithless Looting hitting 3 dredgers. Luckily 0 Narcomoebas to flashback the 4 cabal therapies that resided in his yard. He ends and I Brainstorm into Infernal Tutor, LED, something, putting back two cards that don't contribute to the turn 2 kill. My turn I Ad Nauseum from 20. I win with Tendrils of Agony for 15 copies.

SB: -2 Silence, -1 Infernal Tutor for+2 Echoing Truth, +1 Chain of Vapor

I open up with another solid turn 2 kill hand. He starts the same as game 1, but this time doesn't hit Cabal Therapy to go along with his Narcomoebas. He passes. I play out my LED and Lotus Petal and hold up Brainstorm off a City of Brass and pass. He dredges and only hits 1 Cabal Therapy and an Iona, but no more Narcomoebas. He Cabal Therapies me, I brainstorm in response and put Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor on top (Ritual under the Tutor). He names Dark Ritual and sees my hand of 3 Rite of Flame(He didn't see these game 1 which is why I didn't put them back), Land, other. He passes. I play out my second City of Brass, do some ritualing and Ad Nauseum from 17. First two cards were the second Ad Nauseum and Tendrils. I win at 1 life. We laugh about how our entire match took 5 turns total and everyone else is still in game 1. He asks me for some help with his build of dredge. He had the right cards, but in wrong numbers i.e. 3 Putrid Imps, 2 Breakthrough, 3 LED, 4 Dread Return. I show him Adam Prosak's winning list from Phoenix (?) and he agrees he messed up the numbers. Like I said, nice guy, but new to Legacy.
1-0,2-0

Round 2 Mark with Punishing Maverick

Game 1 was horrible. I mulligan to 5 on the play with a Gemstone Mine, 3 cantrips, and Infernal Tutor. 4 turns later I have 0 land, a hand full of rituals needing only a non-LED mana source to combo. He plays Thalia and another Wasteland. Sadness. Next turn he plays Jitte and Green Sun's for Gaddock Teeg. More Sadness. I draw a Burning Wish. We go to game 2.

SB: -3 Duress, -2 Silence, -1 Orim's Chant, -1 Chrome Mox for +4 Inquisition of Kozilek, +2 Echoing Truth, +1 Chain of Vapor

Games 2 and 3 went much better. Game 2 I kept a turn 2 Kill. I play my Underground Sea and pass. He plays Savannah and Noble Hierarch off a mulligan to 5. I Brainstorm EoT and see Dark Ritual x2 and LED. Happiness. I play Ritual, Ritual, Inquisition. His first card was Thalia, the other 4 were 2 lands, Ooze, and Scryb Ranger. Thalia goes, and I Ad Nauseum from 20 flipping Ad Nauseum and Tendrils right off the bat.

Game 3 was similar to game 2 except I Inquisitioned his Thalia on my turn 1 and killed him turn 2 with a pretty spiffy chain of vapor bouncing 3 of my artifacts.
2-0,4-1

Round 3 Joel G/W Maverick with Fauna Shaman w/o Loyal Retainers.
We drew Intentionally as 1st and 2nd place into Top 4. We played a few pre-board games, and I crushed him.

Top 4!!!
Mark with Punishing Maverick
Game 1 he wins the roll plays Karakas and passes. I play land ritual, ritual, ritual, LED, Lotus Petal, Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns. I don't whiff and Ad Nauseum from 20. I flip Ad Nauseum and Tendrils off the bat again. He starts to complain about a turn 1 kill, but I threaten to Grapeshot him, and he shuts his mouth. I finish it with a Tendrils for 18 copies.
SB same as before

Game 2 he starts off with Savannah and says go. I Ponder and see a turn 2 kill so I set it up. EoT he Enlightened Tutors for Stony Silence. Sadness. Turn 2 he casts it. I dig for a bounce spell for a couple turns. but eventually just play enough rituals to just be able to play out my LEDs and Lotus Petal and Burning Wish for Ill-Gotten Gains and get back 2 Dark Rituals and an Infernal and Tendrils him for 12 copies. Just enough for him not to have been able to Swords his Qasali Pridemage to live through.
3-0, 6-1

During this game my buddy's wife was watching me play. She had never seen the deck played in person and didn't really know how it worked. I explained it to her as it went off. Normally when her husband wins, he gets a victory kiss. He was 0-3 and had not gotten a victory kiss. I try my luck, I get no-sir'ed. He laughs at me. She hugs me. I laugh at him. We all laugh. Good times.

At this point it is 12 am and people have to be at work by 8-9 am. I split with Joel for 30$ in store credit each and we all head home. Not a bad day. Finished my last final at school, had victory Taco Bell Beefy 5-Layer burritos on the way home from that, got to play some fun Magic with some great people, and don't have to go home and get up for school the next day. Can't beat that at all. Feel free to comment, make suggestions, etc. This is the first time I have played the deck in a tournament setting. Only thing I might change is adding a couple Deathmarks to the SB.

Props:
Bryant Cook for building this beast
Dark Ritual
Taco Bell Beefy 5-Layer Burritos
Packard's Games in Dalton, Georgia

Slops:
Troll Ad Nauseum and Tendrils of Agony
Mulls to 5
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben(seriously, eff this card)
Getting an Orim's Chant Misdirected back at me in some fun games.

[KevinTrudeau]

Welcome aboard, nice first report. I have yet to try the five layer burrito, nor the Dorito shell tacos. Well played in playing around Stony Silence/StP as you did, as well as utilizing CoV for storm and mana. Just to offer some friendly advice, you made three plays that I see that I disagree with:


1. Given the information you provided, casting Ad Nauseam over Ill-Gotten Gains in M1G1.
2. Boarding out Chant effects against Dredge.
3. Casting Dim Returns over making fourteen Goblins in M4G2; opp. isn't likely playing Batterskull, and Batterskull alone on turn three after one swing wouldn't even trump you.

You also probably didn't need to cast IoK there in M2G2, but meh. But yeah, don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to criticize you or anything, just looking out and offering advice.

Do you happen to live near the hamlet of Cookeville, TN? One of my buddies lives there.

[TBryant23]

@KevinTrudeau thank you for the welcome. Both of those Taco Bell items are worth the few cents you pay for them.

as for the 3 disagreeable points:
1: M1G1 I did not see a Burning Wish before Ad Nauseum and I can't remember if I had the mana floating or not to Infernal Tutor > Burning Wish > IGG etc.

2: Looking back those would have been good; probably better than the bounce spells?

3: I almost did go for the goblin route, but I knew he did have batterskull in his deck and was pretty sure a SFM in his hand.

No sir, I live in Cleveland, Tn. about 1/2 way between Chattanooga or Knoxville.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Hunting Pack.

[Tammit67]

Hunting Pack.

Is bad for what this deck wants to do.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Is bad for what this deck wants to do.

I've played it before. It's the real deal.

[joemauer]

Is bad for what this deck wants to do.

I believe Hunting Pack is a running joke.
It has to be.

[Tammit67]

I've played it before. It's the real deal.

I have too, in solidarity. The token plan is much worse when it comes out later than EtW does, and the list of cards that answer one but not the other isn't long enough to sacrifice speed

[metalhead]

I believe Hunting Pack is a running joke.
It has to be.

Sssshhhhhhhh hunting pack is supposed to be to new super secret tech in the nourishing lich thread. Don't spoil it!!!

[Michael Keller]

The kid made top eight.

That still doesn't excuse abhorrently poor play. An anomaly perhaps, but playing like that and making Top Eight it would certainly be reasonable to assume there were a plethora of factors accumulating in his favor (good match-ups, benefiting from opponents' even worse play, breakers etc.). This is assuming he was inexperienced with the deck to begin with. It's hard to argue that though after watching that painful coverage.

[KevinTrudeau]

Took down a, now biweekly due to popular demand, Big 1.5 tournament earlier today at my neighborhood store in south Minneapolis and won a Taiga with the GP list I used minus the post-GP IoK change (-1 Duress, -3 Pyroblast, +4 IoK in the board). I didn't get a chance to try out one of the various new Maverick-in-mind SB configurations I had in mind because only thirteen people showed up due to the AVR release falling upon the same day at Monster Den's sister store, Monster Den not advertising the tournament to its fullest extent, and some people leaving a week early for Pro Tour Barcelona, and I figured a five Chant, Echoing Truth list would do better against the smaller field. Highlights included casting a turn one Ill-Gotten Gains on the play against an unfortunate Rifter opponent (a matchup incredibly in my favor, even with the twelve cards he boards in against me games two and three) and then having said Rifter opponent mulligan to two the following game (I'm sorry, Blake), making up for it the next round by playing very tightly against a round two Canadian Thresh opponent, successfully baiting Force with Ad Nauseam at eleven life (not that I hoodwinked him or anything as he was kind of forced to counter it due to the mana I'd had at the time of casting) and then Chanting into a Daze-proof BW->Tendrils the same turn game one, utilizing Leyline of the Meek for my own ill-gotten gains and just ignoring a Leyline of Sanctity at four life in a surprisingly very tense game three against the Leyline, Opalescence deck by making fourteen Goblins, and running very well in the finals against a pink shirt-clad Sir Ryan Broverturf with Canadian Thresh (recent SCG Legacy Open winner and the guy I played in the last round of the GP), winning off of a Diminishing Returns with no mana floating because I chose to Chant pre-DR game one and an Ad Nauseam at seven life with three black floating game two.

The Mav sideboards I had in mind went with the 4 Chant, 3 Duress, 1 IoK maindeck protection plan Bryant's running so that only seven cards are needed for sure to be boarded in (basically assuming the Mav opponent isn't playing Chant/MBT).

Config #1: boarding in four bounce spells (three Chains and a Wipe Away or two Chains, one Echoing Truth, one Wipe Away) and three IoK, leaving the flex SB deals-with-permanents slot (once you consider seven SB slots are already basically set in stone as Wish targets: Tendrils, Empty, IGG, Dim Returns, PiF, Shattering Spree, and Grapeshot) as Silent Departure or potentially Infest/Virtue's Ruin.

Config #2: boarding in three bounce spells (two Chain, one Wipe), three IoK, and a Thoughtseize/probably not, but maybe Cabal Therapy (enabling Wishing for a trump for FoW game one), said flex slot being, again, Silent Departure or potentially Infest/Virtue's Ruin.

Config #3: making the Silent Departure a Deathmark and siding either that or Grapeshot (if Grapeshot, Deathmark could also just be Silent Departure) in game two along with the orthodox three bounce spells (two Chain, one Wipe) and three IoK; this would for sure make room for Infest/Virtue's Ruin (which I suppose could also be in consideration for the card to be boarded in, not Deathmark/Grapeshot).

Deathmark could also always just be the one CMC Wish-able board disruption over Departure in these configurations.

There are many other configs possible, obviously including the one Bryant has suggested, especially once you consider this is only considering boarding in seven cards in against Maverick; I don't honestly know which one is best, and unfortunately probably won't know for some time due to a heavy work schedule this month and the Minneapolis GP coming up in two weeks that I need to prepare for.

[thefringthing]

(I'm a dummy.)

[akmalik]

Not really. Top 4 in the standardevent and a fail in legacy. UW delver > TES?

[thefringthing]

Yeah, I was looking at the wrong tab in the coverage. Internetting is hard, yo.

[lambert101]

Planning on going to Jupiter Games NELC thus weekend with syorm. Wanted to know if i could get some sideboard help from fellow sourcers. Current board is:
1 past in flames
1ill - gotten gains
2 echoing truth
3 inqusition of kozelik
1 grapeshot
1 empty the warrens
1 massacre
1 infest
1 diminishing returns
1 shatering spree
1tendrils of agony
1free spot

Sorry for grammar. Sent from cell.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Planning on going to Jupiter Games NELC thus weekend with syorm. Wanted to know if i could get some sideboard help from fellow sourcers. Current board is:
1 past in flames
1ill - gotten gains
2 echoing truth
3 inqusition of kozelik
1 grapeshot
1 empty the warrens
1 massacre
1 infest
1 diminishing returns
1 shatering spree
1tendrils of agony
1free spot

Sorry for grammar. Sent from cell.

Cell phones are no excuse for shitty grammar. Take an extra three seconds and clean up that garbage.

Don't play Massacre. It can't beat a Gaddock Teeg. Play Deathmark or Silent Departure.

Also Hunting Pack.

[lambert101]

Wow! Sorry for grammar. I didn't realize how bad it was. Is Hunting Pack something seriously being tested in storm? I feel the green is akward to make. Deathmark doesn't help with Mom and Thalia out. Any suggestions for a better board to combat Maverick?

[thefringthing]

Silent Departure seems reasonable to me if you expect Reanimator and really hate Deathmark. I guess if Reanimator makes a Griselbrand, Silent Departure won't do you any good, though.

[caggii]

I like Virtues Ruin if you are worried about multiple white creatures.I am also pretty sure jupiter has one or two in stock.

[lordofthepit]

Silent Departure seems reasonable to me if you expect Reanimator and really hate Deathmark. I guess if Reanimator makes a Griselbrand, Silent Departure won't do you any good, though.

Unfortunately, neither would Deathmark.

I'd rather face a Griselbrand than a Jin-Gitaxias anyway (and neither gets hit by Deathmark), unless you have Pyroblasts in the sideboard, since otherwise all your removal is sorcery speed. Jin-Gitaxias puts you on a one-turn clock; Griselbrand is in most situations a one-turn clock, but if your opponents gets off, occasionally, short-storming will be enough to get there.

[lambert101]

So besides the random/or high tech Hunting Pact, does anyone have a good configuration for beating Thalia.dec? I played against Death and Taxes in addition to Maverick last night and I tried maindeck IoK over Duress and then brought in Duress as needed. What do people think about this?

Board now is:
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
2 Echoing Truth
1 Infest
3 Duress
1 Shattering Spree
2 Flex Spots

[thefringthing]

Is there some reason you don't have the 3 Inquisitions in the sideboard?

[Final Fortune]

So besides the random/or high tech Hunting Pact, does anyone have a good configuration for beating Thalia.dec? I played against Death and Taxes in addition to Maverick last night and I tried maindeck IoK over Duress and then brought in Duress as needed. What do people think about this?

Board now is:
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
2 Echoing Truth
1 Infest
3 Duress
1 Shattering Spree
2 Flex Spots

Replacing Echoing Truth with Chain of Vapor is +EV, I think you have to accept the vulnerability vs Chalice of the Void in order to be more cost effective against Thalia. After that, I'd consider trying 4xEmpty the Warrens in the SB since Maverick doesn't really deal well with a token barrage.

[iPhael]

I know it's a rare occurrence, but bouncing multiple chalice/cannonist/etc has been really clutch for me. Dodging Chalice is especially vital, as most commonly it will land on X=1, and that pretty much stops you cold. If you are relying on CoV, you probably just lose.

We already have 5 slots dedicated to Thalia and Co., and I feel the current boarding plan vs that is plenty effective as is. Sometimes they just get lucky and open two of her and you kind of just have to accept it as variance, but that's about as common as ET'ing a pair of Cannonists :P

Call me a fanboy, but I'm pretty much set on Bryant's list being the most optimal.

[Final Fortune]

Burning Wish for Shattering Spree is still an out to Chalice of the Void at 1, and considering how rare it is to see a Chalice of the Void compared to a "hate bear" I don't think it's worth having to pay the "value added tax" every time you're trying to bounce a Thalia, because there's a worth of difference between 2U and 1U to TES.

Chalice of the Void is a corner case scenario that's still covered by our Wish board, while Maverick is a very real threat. If Faerie Stompy makes a come back I'll eat my words, but I don't know which decks you guys are afraid of that are actually playing Chalice of the Void and pose a serious threat to TES in a 3 game match without winning the coin flip.

Echoing Turth at an SCG is just a "Monsters Under the Bed" complex.

[rxavage]

I have faced 3sphere as well as chalice at larger tourneys and scg. I have yet to actually use the echoing truth in the sideboard but it will remain anyways.

[nodahero]

Well wish me luck---barring some unforseen events I am going to run Bryants 75 more or less. I may adjust the sideboard count a little bit such as a chain of vapor over deathmark for a little more flexibility and to open up mana on the combo turn.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Echoing Turth at an SCG is just a "Monsters Under the Bed" complex.

Last year, I was paired against Stax round one of an SCG Open. You must be lucky because I sure as hell know they're monsters under my fucking bed.

[Final Fortune]

Last year, I was paired against Stax round one of an SCG Open. You must be lucky because I sure as hell know they're monsters under my fucking bed.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but when you compare the number of decks playing hate bears as opposed to the number of decks playing Chalice of the Void, their share of the metagame is quite small. You have to play the numbers IMO.

[joemauer]

I'm not saying it can't happen, but when you compare the number of decks playing hate bears as opposed to the number of decks playing Chalice of the Void, their share of the metagame is quite small. You have to play the numbers IMO.

Chalice may be less likely to show up, but it is more dangerous and comes down quicker. Chalice at one and zero can show up on turn 1. Hatebears come down turn two and sometimes turn three. TES can quite often win before that.

Players are starting to wise up that chalice is a card to play again, mostly because of the hurt it gives canadian thresh.

[thefringthing]

Oddly enough, I have Chalice played at 0 against me far more often than at 1.

[Machahiko]

Played T.E.S for the first time ever in a tournament this weekend. I set my sails to Helsinki and packed my Necronomicon (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-Bragging-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=641685&viewfull=1#post641685) with me. I checked in to the tournament with my friend who was also playing combo, his own Dream Halls build. I hadn't slept that good the night before tournament and didn't eat very well, my stomach made it's point and just as the first round was about to start, my stomach started to hurt really much. Looked like this would turn out to become a fun tournament. Tournament had approximately ~30+ players.

Round 1, Mikko with Solidarity.

I remember duressing him, his hand consisted of snapcaster, turnabout and 3 lands. My hand wasn't that good and he killed me few turns later when I tried to silence him. I realized that I have to save my silences in the next games so that I can play them during his combo.

Second game, I start my combo with chant, he starts comboing off and I facepalm, I forgot already my gameplan for the second game. He does his thing and I'm left with no library, he then says that chant resolves and I can continue. I play LED, some mana and burning wish for tendrils, he wants 3rd game.

The third game was so bad play from me that I would rather just say that I won, even though I played like a idiot in front of everyone. :rolleyes: Game went pretty much just like game 2, but this time he just brainfreezed me for ~40 and left me a little library. I silence, get some fast mana, play burning wish and get past in flames.

When he brainfreezed me, I had put those 40 cards next to my graveyard, not my graveyard. This resulted in me sweating like a pig, trying to combo off with 1 ponder, 1 dark ritual, 1 rite of flame when next to me I would have had 40 cards to use. Instead I try to combo out with these few cards and say out loud "I am so going to fuck this up / fizzle" and everyone had a good laugh. I played my only ponder to find infernal tutor or burning wish for win. 3 top cards are blanks. No help there. I shuffle my minismal library without giving it a second thought. My opponent shuffles my deck and I draw a card.

Burning wish, go get Tendrils of Agony. My opponent looks at everyone looking at our game and has this "are you fucking kidding me?" -look on his face. A guy called Sebastian asks me, "hey, what's this pile over here?" I say that it's the pile that he brainfreezed, then I thought about what I said and smiled. Said something along the lines that luck is the best friend of a beginner.

1-0-0

Round 2, Heikki with Esper Blade

I have a turn 1 kill hand, he starts the game and plays thoughtseize. Now my hand is pretty bad and I just can't find a tutor effect. In the next game I had a lot of discard in my hand, and so did he. In the end neither of us has any hand, he plays a batterskull and I just don't get the combo pieces.

1-1-0

Round 3, Markus with UR Burn

Game 1 he burns me a couple of times and gets me to 9, I past in flames combo him out. Game 2 he leads off with goblin guide. I take my free misty rainforest, draw a card and then proceed to win the game, we had little argument about how much life did I have left, but in the end it didn't matter.

2-1-0

Round 4, Ahti with Dream Halls

I've playtested a lot with Ahti since we're friends and this was first tournament for us with our new decks. I knew I had the upper hand in the first game, but sideboard games were in his favor.

Game 1 I have a pretty good combo hand, all I would need is protection. I find the protection that I needed and kill him in front of audience. I knew he would bring in leyline of sanctitys so I brought in echoing truth, inqusition of kozileks and boarded out ponder, infernal, chrome mox, 1 orim's chant. I'm still a bit lost with what to side in this matchup.

In the next game my hand is dark ritual, land or two, ad nauseam, lotus petal and silence. I don't play my lotus petal and it could have costed me the game. He plays show and tell, puts down dream halls. He plays intuition (to find conflux I presume!) and in response to that I play Ad Nauseam discarding inqusition of kozilek or dark ritual. He thinks what to do and exiles ADN with mindbreak trap, discarding the only card left in his hand. Here I should have had the Petal in play to silence him after playing the Show and Tell, then I would have proceeded to play Ad Nauseam on my own turn around Mindbreak Trap.

He's left with only one card in his hand which is conflux, I draw tutor or ad nauseam and he's out of the game.

3-1-0

Round 5, Sebastian with RUG Tempo

I talked to him about how he's done, 3-0-1 so far and he agreed to draw with me if I wanted to. I did some fast calculating and I wasn't sure would I make it to the top 8 if I drawed with him. I came a long way to play, so I decided to play.

In the first game I duress or inqusition him, his hand consists only of lands and ponders/brainstorms. I feel a bit bad for not knowing what he has in his hand after a turn or two of cantripping. Even though, I think he made a slight mistake. He looked way too anxious when cantripping and after the last cantrip he slammed his hand gently on the table which I found to be a clear tell about no counterspells. My turn, with no protection, go for it. He had nothing and I take the game.

Games 2 and 3 didn't go that well. In the both games I kept land light hands and he stifled/wasted them all away.

3-2-0

Waiting for the results and... the both players that beat me were in the top 8 and at least one of the players that I had beat was in the top 8. I was also in the top 8!

Sami with Death & Taxes

In the first game I make 10 goblins on turn one. They get there. Game 2 he mulligans, plays a plains and weathered wayfarer. On my turn I ad nauseam and kill him.

In the top 4 I faced Sebastian again.

I won the first game after going to 2. He wins the second game by destroying my lands and in game 3 he destroys the only land I have. I draw more than 10 cards looking for a land, but I just draw crap. I'm out of the tournament and I'm really happy for doing this good besides all the epic bad plays I made.

I won a good amount of store credit, with them I bought Small World board game and left some on my account so the next tournament will be "free" to play. :)

Thanks for reading. Do you guys keep mana light hands against RUG, or should I have mulliganed to find more lands in my opening hand?

[Final Fortune]

Oddly enough, I have Chalice played at 0 against me far more often than at 1.

That's fairly common fwiw, I think they're afraid if they hold it back for a turn that you'll just kill them outright for it. Also most of the decks that SB Chalice usually don't have any way to play it for 1 on the first turn, mostly Goblins seems pretty bullish on Chalice after getting Caverns to cheat thru' it vs RUG so that only leaves Sneak Attack as the only deck that could outright screw us with it.

[Bryant Cook]

Report (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/33629/cooks-kitchen-nelc-top-4-legacy-storm)

Top 4'd Jupiter. Three matches on camera, also the answer to player of the year.

[Tammit67]

Report (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/33629/cooks-kitchen-nelc-top-4-legacy-storm)

Top 4'd Jupiter. Three matches on camera, also the answer to player of the year.

Congrats Bryant. Anything you would change with the IoKs or otherwise?

[ScatmanX]

Report (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/33629/cooks-kitchen-nelc-top-4-legacy-storm)

Top 4'd Jupiter. Three matches on camera, also the answer to player of the year.
Congrats there.
I can't see due to reflex the last card on Eli's hand on G3.
He had 2x Pierce, 2xFoW, Daze, Emrakul and SnT (this last one is the one I can't see)?
If that's the hand, don't you think that taking SnT woudn be better?
Thanks.

[Bryant Cook]

Congrats Brian. Anything you would change with the IoKs or otherwise?

Well my name is Bryant. It's literally on the post above yours.

The only slot I would change is Infest. Maverick's numbers have gone down a bit and with two Deathmark I haven't found myself wanting it.


Congrats there.
I can't see due to reflex the last card on Eli's hand on G3.
He had 2x Pierce, 2xFoW, Daze, Emrakul and SnT (this last one is the one I can't see)?
If that's the hand, don't you think that taking SnT woudn be better?
Thanks.

It's Ponder.

[thefringthing]

Excellent report, Bryant. I enjoy studying your games.

I'm interested in feedback on a sideboard plan for my LGS, which has no Maverick players. The changes (from the sideboard in the opening post) are -2 Deathmark, -1 Infest, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Revoke Existence, +1 Silent Departure. My LGS has a lot of Burn, Show and Tell decks (and other fatty-based strategies), and Delver (mostly the blue-red version). I should note that at a mox tournament or GP, I'd run the stock sideboard.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Excellent report, Bryant. I enjoy studying your games.

I'm interested in feedback on a sideboard plan for my LGS, which has no Maverick players. The changes (from the sideboard in the opening post) are -2 Deathmark, -1 Infest, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Revoke Existence, +1 Silent Departure. My LGS has a lot of Burn, Show and Tell decks (and other fatty-based strategies), and Delver (mostly the blue-red version). I should note that at a mox tournament or GP, I'd run the stock sideboard.

Pyroblast.

[Bryant Cook]

Excellent report, Bryant. I enjoy studying your games.

I'm interested in feedback on a sideboard plan for my LGS, which has no Maverick players. The changes (from the sideboard in the opening post) are -2 Deathmark, -1 Infest, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Revoke Existence, +1 Silent Departure. My LGS has a lot of Burn, Show and Tell decks (and other fatty-based strategies), and Delver (mostly the blue-red version). I should note that at a mox tournament or GP, I'd run the stock sideboard.

I dislike all three cards added.

Chain is alright I suppose.
Revoke Existence? Just play Hull Breach if you plan on wasting sideboard space.
Silent Departure. Useless now due to Gristle brand, they won't be fetching Iona nearly as much.

I think you are better off running Pyro's again if that's the case. However, at this point the sideboard is now crammed with protection.

[thefringthing]

The Revoke Existence is intended to be for Pyrostatic Pillar; I thought of Hull Breach but it seemed too difficult to cast. Pyroblast is a good suggestion but I agree that with Inquisitions and Pyroblasts those slots will be overloaded. Maybe I'll just get real "creative" and run some basics in the sideboard or something weird like that.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

The Revoke Existence is intended to be for Pyrostatic Pillar; I thought of Hull Breach but it seemed too difficult to cast. Pyroblast is a good suggestion but I agree that with Inquisitions and Pyroblasts those slots will be overloaded. Maybe I'll just get real "creative" and run some basics in the sideboard or something weird like that.

Why can't you just Duress/Inquisition/Echoing Truth their pillar?

[thefringthing]

Not always going to have disruption or bounce in time. I've had a few near-misses going off through Pillar, but it tends to leave you very vulnerable to burn. (It's one thing to have 12 goblins and another to have 12 goblins and two life.)

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Not always going to have disruption or bounce in time. I've had a few near-misses going off through Pillar, but it tends to leave you very vulnerable to burn. (It's one thing to have 12 goblins and another to have 12 goblins and two life.)

Your opponent has an active pillar.

You cast Burning Wish. Ow. Take 2.
You cast Revoke Existence. Ow. Take 2.

And that's if you don't need Rite of Flame or some other odd fast mana to cast wish. And if that's not the case, and you have the lands to cast everything -- you're going to get priced out of the game anyway.

[emidln]

It's not reasonable to side for Pyrostatic Pillar. Make them discard it or kill them before they play it. Drawing a Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth is just the worst.

[Bryant Cook]

It's not reasonable to side for Pyrostatic Pillar. Make them discard it or kill them before they play it. Drawing a Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth is just the worst.

-4 Chant Effects
-1 Ad Nauseam
+3 Inquisition
+1 Truth
+1 Ill-Gotten gains

That's what I've been trying recently.

[thefringthing]

Against Burn, or Blue-Red Delver?

[Bryant Cook]

I was going to answer this and then decided I'm done spoon feeding you. Come to a conclusion for yourself for once.

[kravkenov]

I dont see Inquisition of Kozilek doing anything against Burn.
My bet : RUG Delver.

[Machahiko]

Bringing IGG in against blue deck which will bring hate in doesn't sound that bright. On the other hand, I might just be stupid.

[kravkenov]

IGG loop without life-loss.
RUG Delver is full of Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt and can clock fast with a Turn 1 Delver, Turn 2 flip.

The whole reason bringing IGG instead of Past in Flame arent still very clear.

[Damoxx]

Chant effects have little to no use against dude based decks, since all their hate is 2cc creatures, hence IoK and bounce.

I could be wrong, I haven't played MtG for about 2 months now, but that's my observation.

**edit**
IGG is pretty good against burn when they are tapped out. An early IoK against burn is worth at least 3 life, which equates to 3 cards off AdN.

[Dark Ritual]

Against mono red burn IGG loop is an option. Against UR, keep it as a wish target for if you resolve a chant effect.

I'd bring in IoK against mono red burn and U/R burn very fast. It hits every card in their decks sans FoW and fireblast if they run it.

Against mono red burn, your best bet is either EtW for 10+ dudes on turn 1 or AdN turn 2 or a turn 3 kill via PiF/IGG. And against mono red burn I just board out chants so fast it isn't funny, as the only way for chant to be live is if they suspend rift bolt and you have the mana to silence/chant them with the suspend trigger on the stack as a psuedo counterspell. Chant with kicker isn't really an option. Overall, it's just a race.

[Bryant Cook]

Against mono red burn IGG loop is an option. Against UR, keep it as a wish target for if you resolve a chant effect.

I'd bring in IoK against mono red burn and U/R burn very fast. It hits every card in their decks sans FoW and fireblast if they run it.

Against mono red burn, your best bet is either EtW for 10+ dudes on turn 1 or AdN turn 2 or a turn 3 kill via PiF/IGG. And against mono red burn I just board out chants so fast it isn't funny, as the only way for chant to be live is if they suspend rift bolt and you have the mana to silence/chant them with the suspend trigger on the stack as a psuedo counterspell. Chant with kicker isn't really an option. Overall, it's just a race.

Well it's good to know that there's someone who reads this thread that can make correct decisions on their own.

[cuthbertthecat]

I'm not sure why you guys are concerned with your burn matchup. Just kill them. Ad nauseam from 14 on turn 2 while respecting fireblast if you haven't duressed isn't really that bad. As for U/R, I've found it helps to not respect permission from them if you can't reasonably afford to as they play anywhere from very little to none. For example, if you can wait two turns against a flipped delver in order to play around permission with your ad nauseam but with your life at 8, you should probably just go for it with 6 additional life. This might already be a common thing and I might be restating the obvious, and if so I'm sorry.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

i'm not sure why you guys are concerned with your burn matchup. Just kill them. Ad nauseam from 14 on turn 2 while respecting fireblast if you haven't duressed isn't really that bad. As for u/r, i've found it helps to not respect permission from them if you can't reasonably afford to as they play anywhere from very little to none. For example, if you can wait two turns against a flipped delver in order to play around permission with your ad nauseam but with your life at 8, you should probably just go for it with 6 additional life. This might already be a common thing and i might be restating the obvious, and if so i'm sorry.

win on all the turn ones!

[thefringthing]

I'm not sure why you guys are concerned with your burn matchup.I inquired about what to do versus blue-red and we got a bit sidetracked.

[cuthbertthecat]

win on all the turn ones!

Pretty much. What're they gonna do, cast their Fire+Lighting Force of Will on Ad Nauseam?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I inquired about what to do versus blue-red and we got a bit sidetracked.

Believe this discussion was finished two pages ago.

Also, sold my pimped TES deck.

Playing RUG for a while.

Later.

[cuthbertthecat]

Believe this discussion was finished two pages ago.

Also, sold my pimped TES deck.

Playing RUG for a while.

Later.

That's significantly less cool. Did you sell the duals yet, and would you be interested in shipping them to me if you haven't? Also, I think you're gonna regret that sale pretty soon.

[Darkness]

Does anyone know what the Massachusetts meta looks like? I'm going there in 2 weeks with T.E.S. for the SCG open and I was curious if anyone had some insight. Thanks.

[Basaka]

Believe this discussion was finished two pages ago.

Also, sold my pimped TES deck.

Playing RUG for a while.

Later.

I'm trying to sell my pimped TES deck too... so I can buy power, but that's a different matter.

[cuthbertthecat]

I split the finals of a mox sapphire tournament yesterday with the 5 chant, 4 sideboard inquisition list. The only thing I really learned from it was that Sneak+Show is a pretty winnable matchup, both games I killed him the turn after he cheated a fatty into play, doing so in game 2 around chalice on zero and leyline of the white.

[Bryant Cook]

I played T.E.S. in a local yesterday, took 1st, and won my 40th dual land. I beat Sneak Show, Dredge, Maverick, and Maverick. (Small Event)

But with my current sideboard I haven't cast Infest in over a month. I think I may be using that slot as the wishable Duress in the near future.

[SaberTooth]

I played T.E.S. in a local yesterday, took 1st, and won my 40th dual land. I beat Sneak Show, Dredge, Maverick, and Maverick. (Small Event)

But with my current sideboard I haven't cast Infest in over a month. I think I may be using that slot as the wishable Duress in the near future.

i'm really noob to the deck (just a couple tournaments played with it) and this community, but is awesome and really funny to me, thnx for the thread. I had a lot of troubles trying to beat sneak show... any advice? show and tell for emrakul t2, with at least 2 counters in hand, or just a lot of tricks. i think that i don't really know how to play t.e.s against alotofcounters.deck correctly (we have chants and discard, but sometimes is very difficult). Something like cruel edict in the wishboard helps?

Thnx a lot and sry for my english :P

[bennotsi]

Innocent Blood would be better than Cruel Edict, but still neither is worth it. Your best bet is winning before Griselbrand hits the table.

[SaberTooth]

Innocent Blood would be better than Cruel Edict, but still neither is worth it. Your best bet is winning before Griselbrand hits the table.

you're right innocent blood is better. the sneak and show in my meta (only one) doesn't play grisel, like the old version, but he balance that with GOD draws XD

[AriLax]

Went 6-2-1 at the Columbus Open with TES. Quick report

Rd 1- Bant (W 2-1)
G1 kill him on 1, he doesn't have Force. G2 keep a no lander on the draw and brick. G3 I don't remember what happened, but he died some time after T1.

Rd 2- Esper Blade (L 1-2)
G1 He Inquisitions, takes Infernal instead of LED. I make 12 Goblins, he makes Stoneforge. I runner 2 mana sources + Ad Naus, but he drew a Force. G2 we grind out for a bit and I rip Infernal on the last possible turn to Tendrils him. G3 I win if he has anything but Force + discard spell (ship, EOT Ad Naus, untap into Infernal all with Spell Pierce mana up). He has that, I die.

Rd 3- Belcher (L 0-2)
G1 I mull, he makes 14 Goblins, my 2 cantrips brick on mana. G2 I Inquisition LED on 1, he immediately draws LED and I die. I later find out he only plays 3 LEDs.

Rd 4- ANT (2-1)
G1 I win on 1 on the play. G2 he wins on 1 on the play. G3 I make him discard a cantrip, his next one doesn't find a Tutor and he goes for a Tendrils for 14. I set up and Tendrils back for lethal a couple turns later.

Rd 5- RUG Delver (W 2-0)
G1 I Silence, he Dazes, I pay and he tanks. He says ok and dies. He had Pierce, but that was it so he was dead regardless. G2 he has no clock. I cast Silence 3 turns in a row and the 3rd resolves.

Rd 6- Pox (W 2-1)
Opponent is touchy about me lightly riffling his deck on the table. His cards are triple(!) sleeved, leaving me mash shuffling. I know my mash shuffle is going to also fuck up his cards more and that his monstrosity of a deck is likely to flop out of my hands resulting in me getting a warning, so I call a judge. Judge shuffles. G1 he plays some discard but I keep relevant things, end up bricking on a mana source for 3 turns to not win.

We shuffle for G2. I call a judge to shuffle his deck for me. He mulls. I call a judge again. I mull to 6, pass on turn 1. He Rituals out Liliana, I discard a Mox. I draw any black spell or mana source and promptly kill him.

We shuffle for G3. I call a judge to shuffle his deck for me. He mulls. I call a judge to shuffle his deck for me. New judge is European. He tells my opponent tough luck, doesn't look to me like his shuffle is bad. We both appeal, me mostly because I want to see what happens. HJ comes down, shuffles his deck for me. After this 6 minute ruling, he plays Cursed Scroll on 1. I Duress him, see nothing, and Burning Wish with 9 floating and 7 Storm. I almost go for Dim Ret because it would be more fun, but reason prevails and I make Goblins. He dies.

After the match, he starts pulling his outs to Empty out of his deck and shows me a Tabernacle. Mentions that "You know, this is a $2K Pox deck with cards like that in it, I don't want them to get damaged etc.". I notice none of his cards are foil, only "pimp" is Beta basics. I promptly regret not Wishing for Dim Ret and Grapeshotting him.

Rd 7- WB Stoneblade (W 2-0)
G1 He plays Plains go. I turn 1 have Duress-Wish-Empty, so I go for that. I have to Dark Rit first, so by the time I have Duressed I see he has Mystic. I say fuck it and just Dim Ret and pass. He plays a Mystic from his new hand, I Silence his T3, and then kill him on mine. G2 nothing relevant happened, he died.

Rd 8- Maverick (W 2-0)
G1 he plays Forest, go. I kill him. G2 he mulls to 6, plays Waste + Tormod's Crypt on one. I Inquisition him, take his Thalia, he only has Cradle as another land and dies having played 1 spell the entire match.

Rd 9- Elves (ID)
Debated crushing on principle, but opponent is a cool guy and prize was the same for both of us with a win or draw.

Comedic Value Update: After the event, someone brought up the question of "How is Pox $2000?". I went to investigate further. Full retail price on his deck, assuming Beta Swamps and all and Starcity prices, is about $1150. This is also assuming he had Sinkholes and both Enchant Worlds, neither of which I saw when he flopped his deck. Nice math dude, your deck costs ~$100 more than mine. Though I guess I pimp a little, aka Polluted Deltas go in real deck, Mistys and Tarns in Show and Tell because it's a whole lot of work to register multiple card names.

[Basaka]

Went 6-2-1 at the Columbus Open with TES. Quick report
Rd 3- Belcher (L 0-2)
G1 I mull, he makes 14 Goblins, my 2 cantrips brick on mana. G2 I Inquisition LED on 1, he immediately draws LED and I die. I later find out he only plays 3 LEDs.


Was it the person that top 8'd with 15 islands in the SB?

[AriLax]

Was it the person that top 8'd with 15 islands in the SB?

Yes, in fact it was. Not that the sideboard was relevant for me, never seen a Belcher deck with Storm hate before.

[Koby]

Rd 6- Pox (W 2-1)
Opponent is touchy ... I promptly regret not Wishing for Dim Ret and Grapeshotting him.


For shame, salty opponents deserve to be GS'd.

[Bryant Cook]

For shame, salty opponents deserve to be GS'd.

Truth. 6-2-1 is respectable.

[thefringthing]

The Belcher guy did a fairly popular AMA (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/ukdir/i_played_belcher_at_the_legacy_scg_open_in/) on /r/magictcg. I'm sad to hear he beat Ari. Belcher was the loss that put me out of Day 2 contention at Indianapolis (I went 6-3) and it was super tilting.

[mike1987]

This might be a noob question but is it advisable to play AdN with 0 mana floating. Secondly, with regards to keeping your hand and mulliganing, what are the cards that you guys look out for before going for the mulligan? Thanks :laugh:

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

This might be a noob question but is it advisable to play AdN with 0 mana floating. Secondly, with regards to keeping your hand and mulliganing, what are the cards that you guys look out for before going for the mulligan? Thanks :laugh:

Ad Nauseam every time.

You play more fast mana (4 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal) than any other storm deck.

It'll get there.

[John Cox]

This might be a noob question but is it advisable to play AdN with 0 mana floating. Secondly, with regards to keeping your hand and mulliganing, what are the cards that you guys look out for before going for the mulligan? Thanks :laugh:

You want to go for ad nauseam with no mana if you have 12ish life left or more. Any less than that gets tricky because you may not draw into a free mana source. With one mana or a land drop available 9 life will often get you there.

I look for a "way out of my hand" before mulliganing with any deck. So if I have a wish or tutor that's a "way out". Cantrips are "ways out" too. It's pretty much required to have a way of getting land or mana out on turn one, and a ritual effect is nice too but not needed. If I have multiple cantrips I'm usually not worried about protection since I'll probably draw into it, but against a blue deck I want a duress at the minimum.

[The Spanish Tunnel King]

This might be a noob question but is it advisable to play AdN with 0 mana floating. Secondly, with regards to keeping your hand and mulliganing, what are the cards that you guys look out for before going for the mulligan? Thanks :laugh:

Also - look at the artefact mana you use going into it. If you use a lot of petals/moxes going into it, obviously you have less to draw and the chances of fizzling it go up. That being said, you should probably still go for it :).

For me mulligans really depend on the matchup. Against aggro, you can mulligan really hard, maybe going to 5 for a turn 1/2 kill with little draw, whereas against a control deck like BUG a good keep probably has some dig and protection in it....

The Spanish Tunnel King

[lsho]

Hi!

I am a new storm player and I wanted to say thanks to Bryant Cook and the rest of you for an awesome read. It is pretty hard, starting out with Storm, not having proper legacy experience and I might take the deck to GP Ghent if I manage to practice enough with it.

The intro post is just amazing but there is one thing I have to ask you to help me out with...

I goldfish a lot with the deck and keep a journal of each and every goldfish in order to learn from my playing mistakes. I also noted a few restrictions that I play:

- I need at least one land.
- I need at least one disruption spell (Chant effect or Discard).
- I need at least one ramp spell.
- I need at least one win condition (AdN, Wish) or a tutor for it.
- I can swap out every point except 1 for a draw spell.

And ever with these restrictions I seem to fizzle sometimes. For instance when I keep a hand that has a draw spell that does not net me anything in the first couple of turns. I guess it's pretty much over afterwards anyway when enough hatebears come online to go for the straight win.

I seem to be doing something wrong here, I guess.

Another thing is that I figured out 4 ways to win:

1.) Tutor+LED into Ad Nauseam
2.) Ramp into Ad Nauseam
3.) Ramp into Wish and Diminishing Returns
4.) Wish into Empty the Warrens

I seem to be pulling off quite some T1+T2 going-off with 1,2 and 4. Diminishing Returns is somehow a bit hard to pull off for my taste and I read the guide. The double-U is hard sometimes while 7 new cards often just does not cut it.

And I have a problem with Ill-gotten Gains. It does not really help me early, right? I've not had a situation yet, where Ill-gotten Gains would have won me the game.

... Plus: How do you see Burning Wish? Most of the times, I can't really use it except after AdNauseam into Tendrils or Wish into EtW. There's something I'm missing, right? I know that our wish board gives us answers against quite a few hatebears but then again, how often does one pull that off in reality?

Thanks an cheers!!
lsho

[Awaclus]

Wall of text
I wouldn't usually rely on a single draw spell to find a win condition in a hand of seven cards.

Yes, Diminishing Returns is difficult, and most of the time you should avoid going for it as long as possible, but sometimes you have no other choice. Ill-Gotten Gains is simply +4 storm when you have mana and a win condition, but not enough storm. It also often makes the number of cards in the opponent's hand smaller, which is relevant against decks such as Burn, but can also work as a drawback if the opponent has counterspells in the graveyard.

I pull Burning Wish into an answer for a hatebear as often as I face hatebears and I have a Burning Wish.

[SaberTooth]

i'll normally keep a hand with: ad nauseam and manipulation and/or rituals or rituals and manipulation and rituals and tutors. Obviously... protection is always good :P

i think that one of the cool things in T.E.S is the redundance.

[The Spanish Tunnel King]

Hi!

I am a new storm player and I wanted to say thanks to Bryant Cook and the rest of you for an awesome read. It is pretty hard, starting out with Storm, not having proper legacy experience and I might take the deck to GP Ghent if I manage to practice enough with it.

The intro post is just amazing but there is one thing I have to ask you to help me out with...

I goldfish a lot with the deck and keep a journal of each and every goldfish in order to learn from my playing mistakes. I also noted a few restrictions that I play:

- I need at least one land.
- I need at least one disruption spell (Chant effect or Discard).
- I need at least one ramp spell.
- I need at least one win condition (AdN, Wish) or a tutor for it.
- I can swap out every point except 1 for a draw spell.

And ever with these restrictions I seem to fizzle sometimes. For instance when I keep a hand that has a draw spell that does not net me anything in the first couple of turns. I guess it's pretty much over afterwards anyway when enough hatebears come online to go for the straight win.

I seem to be doing something wrong here, I guess.

Another thing is that I figured out 4 ways to win:

1.) Tutor+LED into Ad Nauseam
2.) Ramp into Ad Nauseam
3.) Ramp into Wish and Diminishing Returns
4.) Wish into Empty the Warrens

I seem to be pulling off quite some T1+T2 going-off with 1,2 and 4. Diminishing Returns is somehow a bit hard to pull off for my taste and I read the guide. The double-U is hard sometimes while 7 new cards often just does not cut it.

And I have a problem with Ill-gotten Gains. It does not really help me early, right? I've not had a situation yet, where Ill-gotten Gains would have won me the game.

... Plus: How do you see Burning Wish? Most of the times, I can't really use it except after AdNauseam into Tendrils or Wish into EtW. There's something I'm missing, right? I know that our wish board gives us answers against quite a few hatebears but then again, how often does one pull that off in reality?

Thanks an cheers!!
lsho

Hey man. Welcome on board the grapeshot train. Toot toot! :).

Can I just say that I wouldn't find your restrictions too helpful. I would try and goldfish the deck (assuming no disruption) and just try to be as fast as possible. This makes the hands you can keep much more (ie no disruption, 2 rituals, land, business can be very strong, even in 'real life' :)). Once you become competent with the basic mechanics of going off and what situations it is possible in, then you can add another element to the goldfish. Maybe they play T1 Mom T2 thalia, and then see how long it takes to wriggle out of the situation. Or you need to play through 1 force and a wasteland by turn 3. As you play against more permanent based disruption and a clock, you will be able to see the power of the other storm engines (ie the non-life dependent ones...).

On your ways to win... 1). is probably the quickest, most normal kill. As for the other engines, I find that if your life is starting to look a bit shabby, then, you can start setting up other lines of play. Eg. at 4 life rit, LED, tutor into AdN looks pretty weak, but if you could set last turn with something like Inf ---> get another LED, and then wish into IGG, suddenly you've got some game again. Personally I much prefer these lines of play rather than spamming AdN's at all of my opponents :).

Diminishing returns is usually played off a wish/LED so the double blue isnt so hard to find. Knowing when to go for it, however is a bit of an art. Always float into it, and a cheeky early one just to see if you win, then untap and start cantriping off isnt the worst. Also - it has other outside uses. Once, I duressed someone T1 (on the play) to see a Teeg and other bad news bears. T2 I dim rit'ed just to get rid of them :). And my new hand wasnt too shabby either... Also - it bones dredge sometimes :D.

As for burning wish - It adds such versatility to the deck. Sometimes its burning wish for protection (but they usually counter it anyway). Or as a finisher (which is how you seem to use it most). It also enables the deck to play in a kind of aggro-control style by making a small number of goblins then using it as disruption. Or you can become a control deck, using it for sweepers while you build up a hand. Its just a shame the wishboard takes up so much space, really....

Well, hope that helps

The Spanish Tunnel King

[thefringthing]

My very general advice:

Keep lands and cantrips. Don't keep hands that don't have a realistic plan. Keep hands with blanks only if the remainder (effectively 6- or 5-card hand) is very good.

Your dismissal of Ill-Gotten Gains leads me to believe you need to goldfish a lot more. One line with Ill-Gotten Gains that comes up a lot is IT>BW>IGG, getting back LED+LED+IT or LED+DR+IT. This line normally has Ad Nauseam available, but it's preferable to avoid the small chance of whiffing when you know your opponent has no interaction available.

Burning Wishes for stuff like Deathmark, Shattering Spree, and so on happen less often than you might think, but give you an out to what would otherwise be game-ending scenarios.

[metalhead]

@lsho: One of the most important things to learn when playing legacy combo is how to use your brainstorms and ponders properly. This is important for any deck that uses them but combo is far less forgiving of poor cantripping than tempo and control decks. Unless forced to do otherwise i tendto be greedier with my cantrips than i used to be and ive noticed a huge difference. General rule I fallow is to not cast them until i know exactly what im looking for. Once you start getting comfortable with it youll start noticing other routes to victory like putting Ad Nausium on top with brainstorm and breaking LEDs in response to another cantrip to be able to play Nausium. Plays like this are pretty elamentary to experienced players. But can go a long way in helping newer players.

[SaberTooth]

@lsho: One of the most important things to learn when playing legacy combo is how to use your brainstorms and ponders properly. This is important for any deck that uses them but combo is far less forgiving of poor cantripping than tempo and control decks. Unless forced to do otherwise i tendto be greedier with my cantrips than i used to be and ive noticed a huge difference. General rule I fallow is to not cast them until i know exactly what im looking for. Once you start getting comfortable with it youll start noticing other routes to victory like putting Ad Nausium on top with brainstorm and breaking LEDs in response to another cantrip to be able to play Nausium. Plays like this are pretty elamentary to experienced players. But can go a long way in helping newer players.

that's a good advice... i'll add that fetchlands+cantrips can be a very powerful combination

[mike1987]

Usually how do you guys deal with maverick. More often than not, my opponent will always find a turn 2 Thalia. Means I have to either wish for deathmark or infest. I will find infest more useful as they tend to have MOM or gaddock teeg on board soon after. However, I will always end up spending much resources or turns to find infest that my life will be in the red zone. Or am I doing it wrong?

[ThomasDowd]

Usually how do you guys deal with maverick. More often than not, my opponent will always find a turn 2 Thalia. Means I have to either wish for deathmark or infest. I will find infest more useful as they tend to have MOM or gaddock teeg on board soon after. However, I will always end up spending much resources or turns to find infest that my life will be in the red zone. Or am I doing it wrong?

kill them fast? i always just go for T1/ T2 ad naus and just kill them. and mulligan accordingly.

[Awaclus]

Usually how do you guys deal with maverick. More often than not, my opponent will always find a turn 2 Thalia. Means I have to either wish for deathmark or infest. I will find infest more useful as they tend to have MOM or gaddock teeg on board soon after. However, I will always end up spending much resources or turns to find infest that my life will be in the red zone. Or am I doing it wrong?
I know I'm a heretic and all, but I haven't had problems with Maverick with my decklist, which is slightly different from Bryant's list and doesn't rely on Ad Nauseam that much (I maindeck Ill-Gotten Gains, because it's good with the Cabal Ritual that I run as a budget alternative to Chrome Mox).

[SaberTooth]

I know I'm a heretic and all, but I haven't had problems with Maverick with my decklist, which is slightly different from Bryant's list and doesn't rely on Ad Nauseam that much (I maindeck Ill-Gotten Gains, because it's good with the Cabal Ritual that I run as a budget alternative to Chrome Mox).

then you are running ant

[Awaclus]

then you are running ant
I suppose I could go to the ANT thread with my decklist too, but it is still much closer to TES than ANT. I'm running less lands than ANT, no Grim Tutor, Preordain or Gitaxian Probe, ANT typically doesn't run Rite of Flame while I do, etc.

[lambert101]

Hey everyone, I am going to Mythic Games in Elmira this weekend with T.E.S. Any new side board suggestions? I know the meta there is usually alot of Maverick and combo (Dredge and Sneak and Show). My main is the same as Bryant's minus 3 Duress for 3 Inquisition of Kozilek. My current side board is the following:

3 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
1 Deathmark
1 Massacre
1 Infest
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames

[Bryant Cook]

Hey everyone, I am going to Mythic Games in Elmira this weekend with T.E.S. Any new side board suggestions? I know the meta there is usually alot of Maverick and combo (Dredge and Sneak and Show). My main is the same as Bryant's minus 3 Duress for 3 Inquisition of Kozilek. My current side board is the following:

3 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
1 Deathmark
1 Massacre
1 Infest
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames

The deck really needs Duress vs. Sneak and Show, Mavericks numbers have decreased a bit I wouldn't be playing four Inquisitions main. I'm playing a Duress in the side over Infest too.

[mike1987]

kill them fast? i always just go for T1/ T2 ad naus and just kill them. and mulligan accordingly.

I see. Thanks man, will practice mulliganing

[lambert101]

@ Bryant: thank you for the suggestions and will let you know how it turns out.

[Final Fortune]

@ Bryant: thank you for the suggestions and will let you know how it turns out.

If you're playing against a lot of Maverick, I find MDing the 4th Duress is better than the 5th Orim's Chant because discaring their Green Sun's Zenith on turn 1 or 2 is the game winning play more often than not.

IoK belongs in the board, you don't want to be dead to rights vs. Force of Will.

[lambert101]

good suggestions....any other good tech versus maverick or sneak attack?

[zmattk]

If you're playing against a lot of Maverick, I find MDing the 4th Duress is better than the 5th Orim's Chant because discaring their Green Sun's Zenith on turn 1 or 2 is the game winning play more often than not.

IoK belongs in the board, you don't want to be dead to rights vs. Force of Will.

If you're facing a lot of Maverick Inqusition in the main is better than the 4th Duress or 5th Chant. Duress only hits Green Sun's Zenith while Inquisition hits Green Sun and every hatebear Maverick plays. You don't lose much not being able to hit Force of Will. There are 7 other cards in you main deck that you use to beat FoW. Also Inquisition still hits Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and Daze and all discard cards.

[thefringthing]

We only had six people at my LGS's weekly Legacy event this week so I proposed we play for the Mana Drain in the case. After the six of us pitched in $20 we were off. I defeated a (rather poor) Esper Stoneblade player, a (somewhat unlucky) RUG Delver player, and then split being the only 2-0. Easy $60. I played the stock list with Duress in the Infest slot as Bryant has been suggesting.

Round 1:
Game 1: He Counterspells a Silence, doesn't have any other business. I make a billion Goblins and he scoops it up.
Game 2: He makes some poor decisions with discard spells, taking my two Burning Wishes but leaving me with Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond. I decide to go off after he taps out for Jace with only a few cards in hand. He Forces my Infernal Tutor. He fateseals Jace up to 11 before I draw Ad Nauseam. He's been drawing and playing lands for a few turns, so he has only three cards in hand, but these include Force and blue card.
Game 3: He mulligans to five. I Inquisition and see Mindbreak Trap. I go off with Ad Nauseam as my second spell on turn three.

Round 2:
Game 1: I wait for three turns trying to find protection while he beats me down to 15 with small creatures. I decide to just go for it and he has nothing.
Game 2: He beats me down to 12 before I can go off. I can make 10 Goblins but he'll win the race. I cast Diminishing Returns with no mana floating, making his graveyard-dependant creatures small. The new hand has an Infernal Tutor in it and a Ponder a turn or two later finds two Lion's Eye Diamonds. I win with Ill-Gotten Gains.

Round 3: Split, my opponent scoops.

[Final Fortune]

If you're facing a lot of Maverick Inqusition in the main is better than the 4th Duress or 5th Chant. Duress only hits Green Sun's Zenith while Inquisition hits Green Sun and every hatebear Maverick plays. You don't lose much not being able to hit Force of Will. There are 7 other cards in you main deck that you use to beat FoW. Also Inquisition still hits Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and Daze and all discard cards.

I disagree, being able to discard a Gaddok Teeg or Thalia vs Maverick is not as important as being able to discard a Force of Will vs. all decks playing U, TES's primary concern game 1 is still Force of Will regardless of the presence of Maverick in your metagame.

[zmattk]

I disagree, being able to discard a Gaddok Teeg or Thalia vs Maverick is not as important as being able to discard a Force of Will vs. all decks playing U, TES's primary concern game 1 is still Force of Will regardless of the presence of Maverick in your metagame.

Hatebears are just as effective at stopping you as Force of Will is. You still have 7 other ways at combating Force as well as a wishable Duress. The singleton IoK makes a big difference when you're not trying to drop games against a GW deck. With Maverick being the second most played deck, I think it's a good choice made by Bryant. IoK can also hit all other forms of hate so it's not like it can only be used to stop Teeg or Thalia.

[SaberTooth]

my main is 3 duress and one IoK, with 3 more in sb, and i think is good

maybe i'll remove infest... never used it, but i think that is because there's no maverick in my meta, a junk uses teeg... but idk, i killed him faster, or discarded it

what do u think, is pyroclasm a good choice?

[lambert101]

I have been using Massacre and it has been alright...

Edit: This may seem bad but what about Sudden Shock in for the 2 Death Mark Spots.....stops Thalia before Mother of Runes ability...

[zmattk]

I have been using Massacre and it has been alright...

Edit: This may seem bad but what about Sudden Shock in for the 2 Death Mark Spots.....stops Thalia before Mother of Runes ability...

Pyroclasm deals damage which Mother of Runes can prevent. Massacre cannot be cast under Gaddock Teeg. Sudden Shock costs 3 with Thalia out. I prefer Deathmark since its quicker meaning you win quicker. And if I'm paying 3 for a card it's going to be Infest and it will wipe the board. Honestly this has all been discussed before. Bryant has this deck figured out. I would suggest reading the previous pages as well as the old thread. It will really help you understand the entirety of the deck much better.

[Julian23]

No love for Virtue's Ruin at 3 mana? Infest is it's ugly but more well-known cousin.

[thefringthing]

It's been mentioned before. If you read back far enough I'm sure you'll find some opinions.

In other news, I was crushed most spectacularly in a GPT yesterday. I mean, I somehow lost round one to cards I had to read. I ended up losing to Maverick splashing blue for Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm in the last round, out of contention for Top 8. Opponents had everything they could possibly have virtually 100% of the time while I drew garbage and flipped garbage to Ad Nauseam all day. Pretty frustrating.

[AriLax]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47078

Can we also Wish for a Reanimate?

[Bryant Cook]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47078

Can we also Wish for a Reanimate?

OMFG. Awesome. I don't know how realistically good it'll be, it pretty much requires them to use Study and not Entomb. But it may be worth trying.

I'm currently working on a new list, it'll be released later on this week. As the sideboard may be changing if there's a banning or not on Wednesday night.

[Shimi]

Played 2 tournaments this weekend.

Played with DDay UBWr and lost to EsperBlade( messed up with my pile and lost to a 1W -Inst - Landfall - Gain 8 life and a goodly t1 to t5 in game1) , also I got beat until I cry by SneakShow( G1 he T2 on play put an Griselbrand with fow backup, G2 he put T3 Emrakul after playing Pierce, Pierce, Fow and ending with 0 cards in hand).
This was very dissapoint and make me think that, if Sneak and Shows(and Reanimator) are killing us this fast and consistent, them I should go back to TES and kill them fast and make they suffer much more pain with 20 storms, also maindeck duress a + 4 IoK-pos SB should take care of their fast kills with fow backup.

So it takes me to Sunday, when I played with TES and finished in 10th at a 70-man tournament( prizes were for top16, with some FoWs, Blue duals, wastes and a delta), so I got a Polluted Delta to make some cash.

I will be very short but I would like to discuss some aspects.

I played WITHOUT EtW at SB, that's why:
1) With IoK I really don't need to make a bunch of goblins against Maverick, and T2 on draw it can be risk with their noble/ooze/thalias/jitte shitness)
2)I would not go for this route against Reanimator/Sneak or other combo.
3)There is almost no UW/x , and if it is not T1 , they can Stone , Ligering Souls, Batterskull + Souls.Also the match seems good so no need to try to be a belcherdeck.

So I got the 60 standard list( all foil , and missing 2 Fbb German U. Sea) plus this 15 SB:
1 ToA
1 PiF
1 Iggy
1 DR
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree( I was thinking about cutting this and the 1 Seize for 2 Pyro but a saw some Chalices decks and change my mind)
1 Seize
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Echoiung Truth(thinking about putting a CoV or a Silent Departure here)
1 CoV
4 IoK

I got beat by Team America(who drew all 4 FoWs , Mana Leak , Pierce, Snare + 2 Seize and Snapcaster at g1 and g2 by 2 fast tarmogoyfs with FoW, Snare , wastes).No news here, it is just a bad matchup.

And by a Nic-Fit player( G1 I just DR , then Iggy to DR again and keep drawing like 3 lands , 2 chants , 1 petal , duress with a bunch of lands/petals in play) and G2 I win before a MB Trap shot my first earlier Adn, G3 I BW-> Seize -> take MB trap after que mulliged to 4 searching it, he plays Sensei's Divining Top , veteran and therapy me twice(hiting just 2 Rites of Flame) while I cantrip twice and play landdrops.He draws and witness for MB Trap, I BS and decide I should go for it next turn, so I play petals(except one(!) because if he draws and blows Deed and can still try to combo a 1 turn late) , mox and pass.I untap an play Ddark Ritual -> Adn, draw a bunch of cards (no LEDs here), duress his MB Trap, but I feel he is still confident so I guess he has another MB Trap hide on his top.I try to play around it, so I storm for 12 and ToA, which get Exiled by his hidden MB Trap, So I'm just left with 6 mana , IT , IoK in hand and ToA still in my deck, ok I'm one mana short of killing him, and the Judge calls for the 5 turns, I'm siting at 6 life, and he has a lone Witness so I'm dead on turn5.I decide to IoK him taking his last card( a SDT) and leaving him only with a SDT on his top, then I IT -> BW and get PiF, since I have 7 initial mana sources on my table(lands and moxes) he I even don't care if he tops into a Hymn(he was playing it) or Therapy he has two outs, play SDT and "blind" flip into a Deed to blow my 2 moxes and pray for me not draing a land/manaspell, or deal with my grave, he sees the SDT and flip ir to draw 1 of 2 Nihil Spellbombs.I just wanted write about this game, it was very exciting and fun, trying to play around a bounch of stuff and make some thought decisions.

The other games were easy or comum games against:
UW Miracle(featuring CB, g2 I beat him besides he having CB on table and 2 fecths + pierce)
Dreadge w/LED( two mulligan-oriented T2/T3 kills)
Affinity
Enchantress( friend who conceded in reponse to the 19 storm)
UB( discards + pierce + Reanimator + Ooze combo w/ FoW pos-SB)

Finished 5-2, got at 10th, because my standing were really bad since I lost at round1(Team America) and r4(Nic-Fit), also got the Affinity player no round3(which was 1-1 because got a bye on round2).

I'm starting to see a decrease in the Maverick numbers and UW , with an increase with Canadian , Reanimator and Sneak Show(also people playing less Snares and more Pierces). I would like to put back some Pyroblast at the SB, killing a T1 delver or countering a Show and Tell would be very good.Also, maybe a reanimate in the SB if Reanimator Griselbrad starts to be a much more common presence? What you guys, think about it? With a lot's of Griselbrands cheat decks( 2 combo pieces) and Canadian storm the life is a little harder for us.

Sorry for some grammar and being more long than I indeeded.

[thefringthing]

Woah. Bryant reacted positively to an idea in the thread. I think I need an adult. It is a pretty cool idea, though!

Bryant: Will your new list be available before this weekend? I'd be interested in seeing it before SCG Detroit.

[TerribleTim68]

... Opponents had everything they could possibly have virtually 100% of the time while I drew garbage and flipped garbage to Ad Nauseam all day. Pretty frustrating.

I've been there dude, I feel your pain. I ran this deck a few weeks back and literaly lost EVERY SINGLE GAME. Some times, it just isn't your day. :frown:

[Tammit67]

I've been there dude, I feel your pain. I ran this deck a few weeks back and literaly lost EVERY SINGLE GAME. Some times, it just isn't your day. :frown:

And some days you face staxx/hatebear.dec and turn 1 them twice.

[Final Fortune]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47078

Can we also Wish for a Reanimate?

Why not just go for Bribery?

[AriLax]

[Reanimate] pretty much requires them to use Study and not Entomb. But it may be worth trying.

Usually if they Entomb EOT you are trying to Silence them on upkeep. Just makes "going off" the next turn easier in that case.

As for the person who suggested Bribery, if I can Wish with five up they should die anyways. Reanimate actually allows for "comboing" in new scenarios.

[Bryant Cook]

This is just something I'm fooling around with, nothing is set in stone. Watching Eli and the rest of the Sneak and Show guys at the invitational made me really realize the power of probe. While the list below only plays two, I've considered adding a third over the forth Chrome Mox. The only problem with this is that it makes Ad Nauseam weaker. Speaking of which, there's only one Ad Nauseam now. It's just something I'm trying, two has been perfectly fine, but I want to shake things up. With only one Ad Nauseam the deck should be able to get away with three moxen, but the life loss from Probe can be a hindrance. So... two or three probe, I haven't decided yet. The other slot in the maindeck was the Inquisition, with less and less Maverick it's not necessary in the main.

I was wrong about Probe, perfect information that doesn't slow down the combo is amazing.

The EPIC Storm
Decklist as of 06/20/2012

4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Duress
2 Orim’s Chant
2 Silence
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Deathmark
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames


Honestly, I'm a crazy person. Part of me wants to keep two Probe just because the numbers on the decklist look better that way. But I know I need to do what's optimal. I need to test a bit more before I come to a final conclusion. You'll notice that there's also some changes in the sideboard. Well, Xantid Swarm to start. It's back! With the rise of Sneak and Show along with Reanimator, I believe it's time to bring our bug friend back in the sideboard as well. Three Inquisition, while Maverick may be dying out, I still dislike being cold to Thalia (She's a hooker). There's really no room for a sideboard Duress, if you feel confident going 2/1, go ahead.

The lack of Ill-Gotten Gains, I don't cast this card very often. It's really only good against super aggressive decks such as Zoo or Burn. Instead of using Gains, try to buy some time and Past in Flames instead.

No Reanimate, it's only good with Study. Chanting them in the upkeep is too much work. In order for this to happen they have to entomb, not have counters, pass, then Burning Wish for Reanimate and cast. Seems like a lot of, "What ifs". I'm just going to cover them in bugs instead.

[SaberTooth]

in my opinion 3 probes looks a lot better than 2, but i'll give it a try

[thefringthing]

I'll try it out before the SCG Open this weekend. I really like Ill-Gotten Gains, so I'm a bit sad to see it go, but I certainly willing to give it a shot.

[JamieW89]

Team Nijmegen played 3 Mox, 1 AdN, 4 Probes, 1 Empty, 3 Wish, 0 ToA at GP Amsterdam last year and did pretty decent with 3 people making day-2.

With the misdirections and leylines around I'd probably run 4 Silence before the first Chant.

And I've also considered Swarms (but then in ANT) as a decent answer to SnT/Reanimate. Green in general seems solid in this metagame with Carpet for RUG, Swarm for SnT/Reanimate en 1-2 Grips for Miracle Counterbalance.

[Bloodcookie]

Since you're running Probes now, have you considered Cabal Therapy as well? I'm actually running it as a one-of without any Probes, and am never really unhappy to see it.

[Bryant Cook]

Team Nijmegen played 3 Mox, 1 AdN, 4 Probes, 1 Empty, 3 Wish, 0 ToA at GP Amsterdam last year and did pretty decent with 3 people making day-2.

With the misdirections and leylines around I'd probably run 4 Silence before the first Chant.

And I've also considered Swarms (but then in ANT) as a decent answer to SnT/Reanimate. Green in general seems solid in this metagame with Carpet for RUG, Swarm for SnT/Reanimate en 1-2 Grips for Miracle Counterbalance.

I've thought about 4 Silence. I'm just not sure if it's the best option, countering a Silence and Surgical'ing it would pretty much mean game over against RUG. They do board in Surgical too. Having all four Chants being the same name worries me, if people can convince me otherwise I'll switch.

The kicker on Chant is relevant too, I beat Goblins last month in the top 8 off of a terrible Nauseam only because I got to Chant with Kicker two turns in a row until I could recover. I know this isn't exactly common, but these situations do happen. I've yet to have a Chant sent back at me but I do know that it's a possibility.

I have no desire to play either Carpet or Grip.


Since you're running Probes now, have you considered Cabal Therapy as well? I'm actually running it as a one-of without any Probes, and am never really unhappy to see it.

Two Probe isn't worth running Therapy. Even if I ran four I don't think I would, Duress/Inquisition is better in most circumstances and doesn't need support.

[KevinTrudeau]

New list looks pretty bad, mostly due to the abandonment of IGG. I could see myself being wrong about Probe (haven't really ever been a big fan of it in this deck), but there's no good reason at all to cut IGG. Absolutely none. Xantid Swarm on the other hand looks like it could be good (again).

[Bryant Cook]

Looks pretty bad, mostly due to the abandonment of IGG.

It's a sacred cow at this point. When was the last time you actually used the card? It's just not that good at the moment, if the metagame shifted toward faster aggro decks I could see it re-added to the sideboard. But for now, it's chopped.

[KevinTrudeau]

When was the last time you actually used the card?

All the time, and I'm not just saying that (though, to be fair, I never actually cast the card at the GP). Turn one IT (due to Mox usually) for another LED with BW in hand vs. fair decks is a fairly common line, and that's just one line.

Also, out of curiosity and to try to get into your thought process a bit, what specific lines of play/game states won Probe over with you?

[Bryant Cook]

Eli Kassis, James Higgenbottom, and Nick Patnode were all on the card for Sneak and the fact it didn't cost mana often made them a turn faster with plenty of turn twos since they didn't need to be worried about protection. It really opened up my eyes.

Probe -> See no Force
Tomb, Petal, Show and Tell happened a couple of times. It was nuts.

[KevinTrudeau]

I do remember Matthias Hunt playing and speaking highly of it in Spiral Tide at the first monthly tournament at the local store after the GP, and there is a weekly tomorrow, so I might just have to try it (and Swarm and possibly Therapy if I'm feeling super experimental) out. It's obviously great in DDFT, so I could definitely be wrong; it might actually just warrant a place in pretty much every combo deck. Still definitely playing IGG though.

[thefringthing]

A lot of Ill-Gotten Gains kills can become Diminishing Returns kills or Ad Nauseam kills without requiring additional resources, but these options involve some chance of bricking.

[Bryant Cook]

I do remember Matthias Hunt playing and speaking highly of it in Spiral Tide at the first monthly tournament at the local store after the GP, and there is a weekly tomorrow, so I might just have to try it (and Swarm and possibly Therapy if I'm feeling super experimental) out. It's obviously great in DDFT, so I could definitely be wrong; it might actually just warrant a place in pretty much every combo deck. Still definitely playing IGG though.

You'll find Probe to be good, not fantastic, but good. Swarm to be just as good as you remember in those match-ups and Therapy to be terrible in a deck with so few reveal effects and no way to flash it back.

[Bloodcookie]

The reason I've eschewed Probe myself is that I found it often resulted in an unplayable Infernal Tutor - that 'draw a card' clause can really bite you in the ass. This hasn't been an issue for you?

[joemauer]

Probe seems like good tech against Sneak N Show right now. If it wasn't for that deck I would probably dismiss Probe.

Not surprised to see IGG go. If I had four mana and burning wish I would go for either Diminishing Returns, Empty the Warrens, or Past in Flames. IGG is good when the situation arises, but it is too situational.

[mike1987]

Though i agree probe is good card to use before deciding to go off but if after probing an opponent and you realise his hands are full of counters, won't you still have to wait for a MB duress to strip his hand off it? Maybe by then, he might have more counters. So why not opt for the reactive route by playing more duress in the first place? Thanks

[Final Fortune]

I don't understand the advantage a Gitaxian Probe has over a 4th Duress, is being free and taking 2 damage to see the opponent's hand really any better than costing B to see the opponent's hand and either remove their disruption, threat or cantrip? Technically Gitaxian Probe allows you to be a turn faster when they don't have disruption, but Duress always achieves parity and actually does something to advance your gameplan when they do have it.

I'm also not a fan of cutting the 2nd Ad Nauseam, the deck is threat light as it is and I want to rely on open handing my threats instead of drawing into them as much as possible. I think Silence probably gets the nod over Orim's Chant, with Sneak Attack there's a non zero amount of Misdirections and Leyline of Sanctity in the metagame. Xantid Swarm is an old favorite, but not being useful in the RUG and Maverick match up makes me want to stick with IoKs in the SB. I don't think IGG is a sacred cow, but it's useful to be able to sb it in vs. aggro and go for the IT-BW-IGG loops with LED so I wouldn't cut it personally unless it was for soemthing vital

[dionykos]

Probe is a strong card, but doesn't it force us to rely less on Ad Nauseam? In this case, it may be a good call to put a PiF in the main, make PiF our main plan in g1. This way we can also probably cut a Mox.

That was the idea behind Elie Pichon's list (the ANT list in GP Amsterdam top 8), with 4 Probe, 1 AdN, 1 PiF MD. The good thing with TES is that we could cut PiF in g2 easily, if we face too many extractions effect.

I never tried a PiF MD in TES myself (although I wish-tutor for him quite often in g1), but it may be the way to go if we put Probe in the main.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't understand the advantage a Gitaxian Probe has over a 4th Duress, is being free and taking 2 damage to see the opponent's hand really any better than costing B to see the opponent's hand and either remove their disruption, threat or cantrip? Technically Gitaxian Probe allows you to be a turn faster when they don't have disruption, but Duress always achieves parity and actually does something to advance your gameplan when they do have it.

I'm also not a fan of cutting the 2nd Ad Nauseam, the deck is threat light as it is and I want to rely on open handing my threats instead of drawing into them as much as possible. I think Silence probably gets the nod over Orim's Chant, with Sneak Attack there's a non zero amount of Misdirections and Leyline of Sanctity in the metagame. Xantid Swarm is an old favorite, but not being useful in the RUG and Maverick match up makes me want to stick with IoKs in the SB. I don't think IGG is a sacred cow, but it's useful to be able to sb it in vs. aggro and go for the IT-BW-IGG loops with LED so I wouldn't cut it personally unless it was for soemthing vital

Because Duress isn't good in every matchup? Duress isn't good when all the opponent has is chaff? Don't get me wrong Duress is a good card but it's not always the best card for the situation. Being able to peek for two life is incredible since it doesn't slow down the deck at all and will take away the fear of unknowing if the opponent has the force of will or not. Probe is much more of a live card in matchups without Force of Will compared to Duress. If they do have Force of Will, bummer, the deck still has protection spells in it. The slot was replacing an inquisition which wouldn't take a Force of Will anyway. Probe is card parity too, without costing mana or speed.

The second Ad Nauseam isn't bad. I even said that, but to be honest, I don't care what you like. Two Probe will make the remaining Ad Nauseam much stronger. Not to mention the percentages of minus one Ad Nauseam/plus two Probe on drawing business in the opener is very minuscule. I'm beginning to wonder if you even read the post before jumping to conclusions, you don't board in Xantid vs Rug or Maverick. There's still three inquisition in the sideboard.

Dionykos- it's a two of, there's no room for a maindeck Past in Flames anyway. in order to add Past in Flames and more Probe you'd have to cut real protection for too many peek effects which isn't worth it in the long run.

[dionykos]

Dionykos- it's a two of, there's no room for a maindeck Past in Flames anyway. in order to add Past in Flames and more Probe you'd have to cut real protection for too many peek effects which isn't worth it in the long run.

I agree. But PiF is probably the way to go for people here who want to play 3/4 Probe. There's also a couple of things I don't like with too many Probes:
1) it kind of makes starting hands with multiple probes quite bad, forces a mulligan, since we lose information about our own starting hand (we don't know what we'll get from the Probes). Of course, if you play only 2, that won't be a problem.
2) It's a bad card to reveal on a Ponder or Brainstorm, often you would rather have an active card. Again you kinda lose the information you could have get from those Ponders and Brainstorms.

But I haven't played the card extensively, so maybe Probe is better than I think.

[Tammit67]

Test it out for yourselves. Jeez. Like it? Run it. Don't? Oh well.

[Final Fortune]

Because Duress isn't good in every matchup? Duress isn't good when all the opponent has is chaff? Don't get me wrong Duress is a good card but it's not always the best card for the situation. Being able to peek for two life is incredible since it doesn't slow down the deck at all and will take away the fear of unknowing if the opponent has the force of will or not. Probe is much more of a live card in matchups without Force of Will compared to Duress. If they do have Force of Will, bummer, the deck still has protection spells in it. The slot was replacing an inquisition which wouldn't take a Force of Will anyway. Probe is card parity too, without costing mana or speed.

The second Ad Nauseam isn't bad. I even said that, but to be honest, I don't care what you like. Two Probe will make the remaining Ad Nauseam much stronger. Not to mention the percentages of minus one Ad Nauseam/plus two Probe on drawing business in the opener is very minuscule. I'm beginning to wonder if you even read the post before jumping to conclusions, you don't board in Xantid vs Rug or Maverick. There's still three inquisition in the sideboard.

Dionykos- it's a two of, there's no room for a maindeck Past in Flames anyway. in order to add Past in Flames and more Probe you'd have to cut real protection for too many peek effects which isn't worth it in the long run.

I don't think it's relevant to compare the utility of Duress vs Gitaxian Probe vs decks without disruption, because you're going to win the game regardless of whether or not you resolved a Duress or Gitaxian Probe vs a deck that can't defend itself from Storm. I don't want to play a card that only tells me when I'm ahead or behind my opponent's disruption, I want to play a card that puts me ahead of my opponent's disruption in order to win thru' the worst case scenarios. Gitaxian Probe just loses value as the match progresses because the opponent's mulligans will give you a better idea as to whether or not he has a counter spell anyway.

The difference between 9 threats and 10 threats isn't marginal fwiw, it significantly changes the odds of being able to Brainstorm or Ponder into an Ad Nauseam 4tw. And only playing 1 Ad Nauseam creates awkward situations where you draw the Ad Nauseam and can't utilitize your Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond in hand or can't cast the Ad Nauseam to bait counters and then tutor into a second Ad Nauseam.

My point regarding Xantid Swarm is that you're sacrificing space on more disruption than you need, where IoK would suffice vs Sneak Attack by discarding the Spell Pierces and Flusterstorms. I suppose IoK is problematic if its one of those Sneak Attack lists that play 3 Misdirection, but then they're playing 3 dead counters vs. Silences anyway. You can pretty much SB in IoK in every match up, Xantid Swarm is much more narrow.

I'm sure the list can still put up wins, I just don't think it's as sturdy as 4 Duress and the 2nd Ad Nauseam.

[thefringthing]

I appear to have sold my Xantid Swarms when I picked up the FBB German duals for this deck, but hopefully someone will bring Sneak Show to local Legacy tonight and I'll try to jam sideboarded games with it. I like it in principle since Show and Tell decks tend not to have any meaningful removal but are super counterspell dense since their combo is fairly compact.

Goldfishing with Probe has been interesting. Removing the second Ad Nauseam does noticeably improve the remaining copy. I'm still kind of paranoid about Diminishing Returns, but relying on it more has gone okay so far.

[Final Fortune]

If you guys are playing Xantid Swarm for Sneak Attack, I think you should try playing with SB Bribery instead because having an "I win" target is a lot better than either Empty the Warrens and risking a resolved Griselbrand or Diminishing Returns and risking a drawn counter spell. It's pretty much a SB Ad Nauseam vs the exact match ups where you really need a straight path to victory, plus if it fizzles you're still left with sick board position.

[KevinTrudeau]

If you guys are playing Xantid Swarm for Sneak Attack, I think you should try playing with SB Bribery instead because having an "I win" target is a lot better than either Empty the Warrens and risking a resolved Griselbrand or Diminishing Returns and risking a drawn counter spell. It's pretty much a SB Ad Nauseam vs the exact match ups where you really need a straight path to victory, plus if it fizzles you're still left with sick board position.

Are you crazy? Do you realize how much Japanese foil Briberys cost?

(Along with Telemin Performance in certain abstract metagames, legit doesn't sound half bad despite narrowness, SB space permitting; both 3UU targets are potentially tremendous elixirs for those awkward hands where you can't for the life of you find a business spell other than BW. The counterargument is, of course (and this goes for potentially any other Wishable 4+ CMC wincon/storm generator— PiF, IGG, EtW, etc.), "DR can potentially do the same thing for one mana less and has way more applications", but if Griselbrand decks become the top dog in the format this summer, I could definitely see it being correct to play. Note that I'm not backing it at all, I'm just not calling it chaff.)

Also, thank you for reminding me of another major criticism (probably the biggest one, actually) of the new list I forgot to add in my initial go-over— cutting the second Ad Nauseam. I don't feel like debating over it as the debate in question would be frivolous, but I'd just like to add that that should have been in my first post in this thread yesterday.

I most definitely cast IGG more than I cast PiF; not dramatically more (it's probably close to even), but I still cast it a lot.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't think it's relevant to compare the utility of Duress vs Gitaxian Probe vs decks without disruption, because you're going to win the game regardless of whether or not you resolved a Duress or Gitaxian Probe vs a deck that can't defend itself from Storm. I don't want to play a card that only tells me when I'm ahead or behind my opponent's disruption, I want to play a card that puts me ahead of my opponent's disruption in order to win thru' the worst case scenarios. Gitaxian Probe just loses value as the match progresses because the opponent's mulligans will give you a better idea as to whether or not he has a counter spell anyway.

How is it not relevant? Duress in those match-ups is a blank where Probe is another land drop, tutor, or Lion's Eye Diamond. You're assuming the hand is already capable of winning, probe can fix hands while giving information.


The difference between 9 threats and 10 threats isn't marginal fwiw, it significantly changes the odds of being able to Brainstorm or Ponder into an Ad Nauseam 4tw. And only playing 1 Ad Nauseam creates awkward situations where you draw the Ad Nauseam and can't utilitize your Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond in hand or can't cast the Ad Nauseam to bait counters and then tutor into a second Ad Nauseam.

It is marginal, the percentages are incredibly small especially considering Probe draws a card. Meaning that it can draw into more business spells. In the rare occurrence that you draw a one of, can't create five mana, or Brainstorm it back? Sure, got me bro. I hardly ever bait an Ad Nauseam, if I'm wasting that many resources, that shit better resolve.


My point regarding Xantid Swarm is that you're sacrificing space on more disruption than you need, where IoK would suffice vs Sneak Attack by discarding the Spell Pierces and Flusterstorms. I suppose IoK is problematic if its one of those Sneak Attack lists that play 3 Misdirection, but then they're playing 3 dead counters vs. Silences anyway. You can pretty much SB in IoK in every match up, Xantid Swarm is much more narrow.

I agree that I'm using a lot of sideboard space on protection, however, they don't fill the same roles. If I had to choose one over the other I'd choose IoK every time. When I originally posted this list did I not say this was a work in progress? In my recent goldfishing I've found that I would really like a sideboard Duress due to the additional information from Probe. Duress and Ill-Gotten Gains may replace the two Xantids. I still believe that Ill-Gotten Gains is a sacred cow though, it's not as useful as people make it out to seem.


If you guys are playing Xantid Swarm for Sneak Attack, I think you should try playing with SB Bribery instead because having an "I win" target is a lot better than either Empty the Warrens and risking a resolved Griselbrand or Diminishing Returns and risking a drawn counter spell. It's pretty much a SB Ad Nauseam vs the exact match ups where you really need a straight path to victory, plus if it fizzles you're still left with sick board position.

Yes, a five mana spell is the answer. If you could resolve this you were already winning. The point of running Xantid was to get cruical spells to resolve.


Are you crazy? Do you realize how much Japanese foil Briberys cost?

(Along with Telemin Performance in certain abstract metagames, legit doesn't sound half bad despite narrowness, SB space permitting; both 3UU targets are potentially tremendous elixirs for those awkward hands where you can't for the life of you find a business spell other than BW. The counterargument is, of course (and this goes for potentially any other Wishable 4+ CMC wincon/storm generator— PiF, IGG, EtW, etc.), "DR can potentially do the same thing for one mana less and has way more applications", but if Griselbrand decks become the top dog in the format this summer, I could definitely see it being correct to play. Note that I'm not backing it at all, I'm just not calling it chaff.)

Also, thank you for reminding me of another major criticism (probably the biggest one, actually) of the new list I forgot to add in my initial go-over— cutting the second Ad Nauseam. I don't feel like debating over it as the debate in question would be frivolous, but I'd just like to add that that should have been in my first post in this thread yesterday.

I most definitely cast IGG more than I cast PiF; not dramatically more (it's probably close to even), but I still cast it a lot.

I will not be running a five mana card as an answer for a match-up with counterspells. Sorry.

I don't plan on adding the second Ad Nauseam back in, I've been really happy with only one. The lone Ad Nauseam really increases the results.

Also, I plan on trying four Silence. Although, I know the second they get Surgical'd or can't kick it to buy time I'm going to be upset. Below is where I'm currently at:

The EPIC Storm
Decklist as of 06/21/2012

4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Silence
3 Duress
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Echoing Truth
2 Deathmark
1 Duress
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames

[Dark Ritual]

Dropping xantid swarm off of show and tell is an incredible play, no matter what they drop. As sneak and show is highly unlikely to have any outs to a xantid swarm on the table. If sneak and show becomes the number 1 deck in terms of numbers I could see xantid as a 4 of in the board if not maindeck to fight the SnT menace.

Right now silence > chant in my eyes, having chant misdirected is infuriating. Or when people board leyline of sanctity orim's chant looks pretty terrible. But overall it's a metacall as to which card is better, if you face decks without misdirection or leyline of sanctity chant is the superior card. If you do face decks with misdirection or leyline, I like silence a lot more.

I wouldn't have telemin performance or bribery as a wish target. Good luck resolving those against a deck with spell pierce and such. As sweet as it would be to get a griselbrand on our side of the table as a psuedo bargain in a storm deck, it just isn't likely to occur in practice all that often.

[KevinTrudeau]

Just so that no one gets the wrong idea, I would just like to reiterate that I'm not backing Bribery or Telemin Performance at all, whatsoever; I was simply stating that in certain (currently only existing in the abstract) metagames, it could be correct to play either 5 CMC wincon, as they enable keepable hands where Burning Wish is the only business spell an immediate kill option (as Empty the Warrens is against so many decks). Combined Griselbrand decks would have to reach the numbers Delver's currently seeing in Standard (possibly more, maybe Jund or even Caw Blade) before I would possibly consider Bribery a suitable Wish target.

List looks better, Bryant, as do the Mets; I was already very displeased when the Twins let go of R.A. Dickey back in 2009, and that vexation has only multiplied over the course of the past few years. Would be awesome if Swarm could somehow be fit in, but it might not be realistic if Maverick continues to be a tier one deck.

[Bryant Cook]

List looks better, Bryant, as do the Mets; I was already very displeased when the Twins let go of R.A. Dickey back in 2009, and that vexation has only multiplied over the course of the past few years. Would be awesome if Swarm could somehow be fit in, but it might not be realistic if Maverick continues to be a tier one deck.

I want Xantid in the list, but there's no room right now. I really don't like the sideboard Gains, but the list needs a Duress and there's no point in running a 1 of Swarm.

[cuthbertthecat]

I want Xantid in the list, but there's no room right now. I really don't like the sideboard Gains, but the list needs a Duress and there's no point in running a 1 of Swarm.

You could just shave a deathmark if you're more concerned with losing to unfair decks than maverick, which given recent top 8 results is probably correct. Or ,as much as you probably would hate to cut it, grapeshot, because its utility is pretty non-existent.

[Final Fortune]

How is Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens better than Bribery when you're forced to wish for your win condition? Vs Sneak Attack or Reanimator, Bribery is essentially a wishable Ad Nauseam for 14 cards with a demon left on the board, where Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens give the opponent the ability to either draw a counter or resolve a Griselbrand.

Granted it's narrow, but Burning Wish really sucks ass in the Sneak Attack/Reanimator match up otherwise, and for 7 mana Griselbrand is a pretty good deal. I have no idea what Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm even have to do with playing Bribery as a win condition, when either you out disrupt them with Silence and Duress or you can play thru' their counters completely with an extra LED. We should actually be thanking God nobody is playing Spell Snare right now, it gives LED significantly more utility to act as a "REB" of sorts.

I really don't understand how you can say Burning Wish -> Bribery (Griselbrand) is unplayable compared to playing Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseam, when it's better than Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseam as long as the opponent is playing Griselbrand. I'd be incredibly tempted to play both Bribery and Reanimate in the SB if I had the space just to metagame vs Griselbrand.dec, because you will face it in the Top 8 quite a bit.

[Jessenator]

Hi guys, I'm a little new to the TES deck and I've been playing it a lot recently. But I am confused on what situation you would use IGG, PiF or DR? Please give me a specific scenario of when these things would happen.

Especially IGG, I really don't understand the "loop". Thanks all

[cuthbertthecat]

Hi guys, I'm a little new to the TES deck and I've been playing it a lot recently. But I am confused on what situation you would use IGG, PiF or DR? Please give me a specific scenario of when these things would happen.

Especially IGG, I really don't understand the "loop". Thanks all

Igg is pretty conditional, but a good example is when you have dark rit 2 leds and an infernal. You cast the rit and leds, cast infernal making bbbrrr, search for wish and cast floating bbbbr, get igg and cast it floating b, get rit led tutor, cast them into tendrils for 20. Also, drawing double burning wish with leds or several rituals can do it as well.

[Machahiko]

I myself am a little bit new player as well, but here's some guidelines that I've come up with:

IGG - use when you have fast mana, LED(s), burning wish or infernal tutor in the graveyard. Useful when you're low on life and Ad Nauseam cannot be used, IGG is good for gathering up storm count. Note that when playing against decks with burn / counterspells, IGG will let them get to play their spells again, so chant them before using IGG, or you WILL lose the game.

Past in Flames is a bit odd to me as well, but from what I've come up it requires you to have enough sorceries/instants in your graveyard, remember to have enough different mana floating after PiF. Past in Flames is really good for forcing through counterspell(s) because it has to be countered twice. With chant effects it's even harder to counter. Faerie Macabre is a real card - a really annoying card that nobody plays these days, be careful though.

Diminishing Returns is a last try at winning. If there is absolutely NO way that you can win this game by IGG/ADN/PiF/small storm & Tendrils, you're facing an opponent who has lethal damage incoming on the next turn and you want to get a shot at winning the game. Just get some storm, float as much different mana as you possibly can (or leave city of brass / gemstone mine / lotus petals untouched) and go for the Diminishing Returns. It can win you the game depending on how much mana/storm you gathered before using it and how well did you rip cards from the top. Note that your opponents will get new cards again so chanting them is needed. Also, consider that even if your opponent doesn't have counterspells in his deck, he could still rip enough burn to kill you if he has the mana to do so. He could have also ripped a Swords to Plowshares to use on his own creature & save himself from Tendrils. There's so many different things that could happen that you have to think about them yourself, every matchup and situation is different. :)

You'll also find a lot of reading in the opening post, go through that stuff and you'll be a lot wiser.

I'm just a beginning player myself so if there's something wrong with my explanations - please correct me so I'll learn as well.

[dionykos]

You could just shave a deathmark if you're more concerned with losing to unfair decks than maverick, which given recent top 8 results is probably correct. Or ,as much as you probably would hate to cut it, grapeshot, because its utility is pretty non-existent.

I think you didn't get the point of playing the deck: we WANT to show off and kill with Grapeshot :wink:

[Bryant Cook]

You could just shave a deathmark if you're more concerned with losing to unfair decks than maverick, which given recent top 8 results is probably correct. Or ,as much as you probably would hate to cut it, grapeshot, because its utility is pretty non-existent.

Even though Maverick's numbers have died, it's still out there. Especially in my local metagame, people love playing Thalia - I still can't figure out why. It's funny you mention that Grapeshot's utility is non-existent, I used it twice in dire need in order to win two games last night. Once to win around a Gaddock Teeg and other because my opponent recovered from Empty the Warrens and it's all I could make in order to win. Speaking of last night's tournament, I went 3-0-1 in our local (Black Discard, UB Faeries, Maverick, UB Control), losing in top 4 to UR Delver. With Probes in the deck Empty the Warrens has become much better, I must've cast Warrens three or four times last night. Even against Maverick. With the additional storm making more goblins, plus not having fear of them having a sweeper has made the card fanastic. I've also decided that two is the right number on Probe, I always wanted the forth Chrome Mox last night. The reason being I must've cast Ad Nauseam from 8-10 two or three times without fear of dying. I was completely comfortable knowing the only card I didn't want to see was Tendrils.


How is Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens better than Bribery when you're forced to wish for your win condition? Vs Sneak Attack or Reanimator, Bribery is essentially a wishable Ad Nauseam for 14 cards with a demon left on the board, where Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens give the opponent the ability to either draw a counter or resolve a Griselbrand.

Sure, in that specific match-up Bribery is better. But you don't build a deck around a specific match-up. Bribery wouldn't be taking the position of Returns/Empty in the sideboard it's taking away a protection slot. That slot may it be Duress or Xantid is there to make sure our spells resolve, we don't need 6 cards in our sideboard that cost 4-5 mana. You're also assuming that Bribery resolves with less protection backing it up because you removed one.


Granted it's narrow, but Burning Wish really sucks ass in the Sneak Attack/Reanimator match up otherwise, and for 7 mana Griselbrand is a pretty good deal. I have no idea what Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm even have to do with playing Bribery as a win condition, when either you out disrupt them with Silence and Duress or you can play thru' their counters completely with an extra LED. We should actually be thanking God nobody is playing Spell Snare right now, it gives LED significantly more utility to act as a "REB" of sorts.

You have no idea why counterspells matter? You're pretty naive. Like I said above, you're suggesting less protection in order to cast an expensive spell against a deck with Force/Misdirection/Daze/Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm. Sure, let's see that seven mana Bribery resolve.


I really don't understand how you can say Burning Wish -> Bribery (Griselbrand) is unplayable compared to playing Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseam, when it's better than Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseam as long as the opponent is playing Griselbrand. I'd be incredibly tempted to play both Bribery and Reanimate in the SB if I had the space just to metagame vs Griselbrand.dec, because you will face it in the Top 8 quite a bit.

The points are above, if every match-up was against a Griselbrand deck - maybe. But that's just not the case. You need to build the deck in order to beat a wider field.



Diminishing Returns is a last try at winning. If there is absolutely NO way that you can win this game by IGG/ADN/PiF/small storm & Tendrils, you're facing an opponent who has lethal damage incoming on the next turn and you want to get a shot at winning the game. Just get some storm, float as much different mana as you possibly can (or leave city of brass / gemstone mine / lotus petals untouched) and go for the Diminishing Returns. It can win you the game depending on how much mana/storm you gathered before using it and how well did you rip cards from the top. Note that your opponents will get new cards again so chanting them is needed. Also, consider that even if your opponent doesn't have counterspells in his deck, he could still rip enough burn to kill you if he has the mana to do so. He could have also ripped a Swords to Plowshares to use on his own creature & save himself from Tendrils. There's so many different things that could happen that you have to think about them yourself, every matchup and situation is different. :)


You're wrong. I cast Diminishing Returns ALL-THE-TIME in no pressure circumstances. It refuel's the hand after you've dumped it on the table in a lot of match-ups. It's not a hail mary at all. It's actually best to cast in scenarios that aren't emergencies because if you do fizzle there's always the possibility of winning on the next turn.


I think you didn't get the point of playing the deck: we WANT to show off and kill with Grapeshot :wink:

I had a scenario last night where I was trying to break my record in a tournament game on turn one with Grapeshot, after Past in Flames, I had no deck and fifty storm... I then cast Diminishing Returns removing my last Wish and Tendrils from the game. Whoops. I was trying to have a little too much fun.

[SaberTooth]

Sometimes i HATE diminishing returns XD

[Bryant Cook]

Sometimes i HATE diminishing returns XD

That was very insightful. Thank you.

[Zodiark]

Hello people :)

After sometime away from this game I'm returning again, this time to try something I've never tried extensively -> combo
I had a bad time against combo when I played aggro, as you can imagine :laugh:

So, I've been reading and trying (online only which makes the games much less real) some archetypes like SI and lately TES!
I agree with a lot of things I read here like TES > SI in most cases, I understood the most card choices you made (and you explain that very well with statistics and more important with testing and tournament results), still here are some questions:

1º Do you really need 2 Xantid Swarm? They're quite volatile (Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, you need to attack with it to be effective... etc)
What if you fill those 2 slots with Autumn's Veil? (Instant, 1 more spell for storm, can be cast after they FoW, Daze, Spell Snare, Counterspell, Spell Pierce... etc)

2º As you refered before for several reasons it's important to have 2 Orim's Chant + 2 Silence, do you believe the current metagame makes the choice of 4 Silence obvious or is it just a try?

[TerribleTim68]

...2º As you refered before for several reasons it's important to have 2 Orim's Chant + 2 Silence, do you believe the current metagame makes the choice of 4 Silence obvious or is it just a try?

I think the split of Chants vs Silence is to get around Surgical Extraction, Fairie Macbre, Extirpate type effects. If they do Surgical your Chant, at least you still have Silences left. The number of them seems to vary. I like a 3-2 split leaving me 5, but my Meta is flooded with Islands (pun intended).

[cuthbertthecat]

Even though Maverick's numbers have died, it's still out there. Especially in my local metagame, people love playing Thalia - I still can't figure out why. It's funny you mention that Grapeshot's utility is non-existent, I used it twice in dire need in order to win two games last night. Once to win around a Gaddock Teeg and other because my opponent recovered from Empty the Warrens and it's all I could make in order to win. Speaking of last night's tournament, I went 3-0-1 in our local (Black Discard, UB Faeries, Maverick, UB Control), losing in top 4 to UR Delver. With Probes in the deck Empty the Warrens has become much better, I must've cast Warrens three or four times last night. Even against Maverick. With the additional storm making more goblins, plus not having fear of them having a sweeper has made the card fanastic. I've also decided that two is the right number on Probe, I always wanted the forth Chrome Mox last night. The reason being I must've cast Ad Nauseam from 8-10 two or three times without fear of dying. I was completely comfortable knowing the only card I didn't want to see was Tendrils.



I dunno, you're probably right but I'm still gonna test with 2x xantid swarm over a deathmark and grapeshot, as I think the points you made for them against Sneak and Show were pretty good and I have very little respect for Maverick. That said, I'll probably come to the same conclusions as you, but it doesn't hurt to test.

[Zodiark]

I think the split of Chants vs Silence is to get around Surgical Extraction, Fairie Macbre, Extirpate type effects. If they do Surgical your Chant, at least you still have Silences left. The number of them seems to vary. I like a 3-2 split leaving me 5, but my Meta is flooded with Islands (pun intended).

If you read carefully what I wrote back there you'll see that my question is why 4 Silence? I understand why 2 Orim's Chant + 2 Silence or 1 + 3 in some lists.
Once again my question applies to this phrase only:

Also, I plan on trying four Silence. Although, I know the second they get Surgical'd or can't kick it to buy time I'm going to be upset.

[Final Fortune]

Sure, in that specific match-up Bribery is better. But you don't build a deck around a specific match-up. Bribery wouldn't be taking the position of Returns/Empty in the sideboard it's taking away a protection slot. That slot may it be Duress or Xantid is there to make sure our spells resolve, we don't need 6 cards in our sideboard that cost 4-5 mana. You're also assuming that Bribery resolves with less protection backing it up because you removed one.

You have no idea why counterspells matter? You're pretty naive. Like I said above, you're suggesting less protection in order to cast an expensive spell against a deck with Force/Misdirection/Daze/Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm. Sure, let's see that seven mana Bribery resolve.



Ofcourse I know why counterspells matter, I said I don't know why THOSE counterspells matter any more than the others because they're currently a weaker set of counterspells than Spell Snare is. If the opponent is playing the 4 Force of Will, 3 Misdirection, 3 Daze variation, we can MD Silence to invalidate Misdirection. If the opponent is playing the 4 Force of Will, 3 Spell Pierce (Flusterstorm) and 3 Daze Configuration with SB Flusterstorm (Spell Pierce) then we can use LED(s) to resolve our win condition thru' their disruption. The fact that they're using Misdirection and that they're not using hard counters is exploitable by us, and we can take advantage of that by using other MD and SB disruption configurations than Xantid Swarm which aren't dead vs RUG.

I don't think Bribery is any more conditional than Xantid Swarm, since you're only SBing Xantid Swarm in vs. Sneak Attack and Reanimator or you're SBing multiple dead cards vs. RUG and possibly dead cards vs. U/w if they keep in STP. I didn't cut any disruption for Bribery, because Ill Gotten Gains was already on the chopping block, and you only SB in 3 additional disruption cards in most of your matchups regardless so whether or not you're SBing 4 Thought Seize, 3 Thought Seize or 3 Thought Seize and 2 Xantid Swarm doesn't matter a whole lot because you can't accomodate all 5 unless you're not playing the 2nd Ad Nauseam MD and you're SBing out 2 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Ponder and 1 Infernal Tutor and leaving 0 wishable disruption in the SB, in which case you're actually 1 MD disruption card short of me regardless and converging back to more disruption in the MD over Gitaxian Probe anyway.

The main problem in the Sneak Attack and Reanimator match up isn't really about you're SB disruption, it's about Burning Wish being a dangerous and unreliable win condition when you can either A) Give the opponent 7 new cards after he's developed his manabase and you're forced to pass the turn or B) Go All-In on Goblins only to see a Griselbrand (or maybe an Emakrul) resolve.

Burning Wish has an inherent strategy inferiority vs Sneak Attack and Reanimator that you can address by sacrificing a SB slot on Bribery to automatically win the game, and while I understand you're impetuous and adolescent attitude towards anyone who makes changes to your deck other than you given the history of these painfully fucking stupid TES threads, the fact of the matter is Sneak Attack and Reanimator are serious metagame threats right now, which you acknowledged by suggesting Xantid Swarm, and dedicating 1 SB slot to shore up Burning Wish's weakness to these combo-control decks is completely reasonable fwiw.

I also think your comparison to Diminishing Returns "only" being a 4cc card is kind of fallacious, because the odds of winning with Diminishing Returns without floating mana and withouting drawing the opponent into disruption aren't particularly high so Bribery's 5cc cost isn't that unreasonable. You just can't "stop&go" with Diminishing Returns vs. Sneak Attack or Reanimator when passing the turn means they can resolve Griselbrand.

[Final Fortune]

If you read carefully what I wrote back there you'll see that my question is why 4 Silence? I understand why 2 Orim's Chant + 2 Silence or 1 + 3 in some lists.
Once again my question applies to this phrase only:

4 Silence is better against Misdirection and Leyline of Sactity out of Sneak Attack, and to a lesser extent Reanimator.

[SaberTooth]

That was very insightful. Thank you.

You're welcome, but it is a card with a very random factor... sometimes you just win, and sometimes, you're new hand is just too awful.

[Peruzo]

I had a scenario last night where I was trying to break my record in a tournament game on turn one with Grapeshot, after Past in Flames, I had no deck and fifty storm... I then cast Diminishing Returns removing my last Wish and Tendrils from the game. Whoops. I was trying to have a little too much fun.

Bryant: What's your record?

[Bryant Cook]

Ofcourse I know why counterspells matter, I said I don't know why THOSE counterspells matter any more than the others because they're currently a weaker set of counterspells than Spell Snare is. If the opponent is playing the 4 Force of Will, 3 Misdirection, 3 Daze variation, we can MD Silence to invalidate Misdirection. If the opponent is playing the 4 Force of Will, 3 Spell Pierce (Flusterstorm) and 3 Daze Configuration with SB Flusterstorm (Spell Pierce) then we can use LED(s) to resolve our win condition thru' their disruption. The fact that they're using Misdirection and that they're not using hard counters is exploitable by us, and we can take advantage of that by using other MD and SB disruption configurations than Xantid Swarm which aren't dead vs RUG. Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm definitely do matter. Have you played the match-up at all? You can't sit there and wait to out draw them in mana. They will kill you first on turn three/four.


I don't think Bribery is any more conditional than Xantid Swarm, since you're only SBing Xantid Swarm in vs. Sneak Attack and Reanimator or you're SBing multiple dead cards vs. RUG and possibly dead cards vs. U/w if they keep in STP. I didn't cut any disruption for Bribery, because Ill Gotten Gains was already on the chopping block, and you only SB in 3 additional disruption cards in most of your matchups regardless so whether or not you're SBing 4 Thought Seize, 3 Thought Seize or 3 Thought Seize and 2 Xantid Swarm doesn't matter a whole lot because you can't accomodate all 5 unless you're not playing the 2nd Ad Nauseam MD and you're SBing out 2 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Ponder and 1 Infernal Tutor and leaving 0 wishable disruption in the SB, in which case you're actually 1 MD disruption card short of me regardless and converging back to more disruption in the MD over Gitaxian Probe anyway.

Why are we still arguing Xantid? It's not in my list anymore. But... You're missing my original point of Xantid being protection that helps resolve key spells. Bribery doesn't actually do that and sits dead in the sideboard vs. every other archtype that isn't Reanimator or Show and Tell. Xantid was/is more versatile since it can come in vs other decks. Such as Merfolk - it's what a lot of pros were playing at the invitational, the combo mirror, and decks that sideboard out removal.

You cut Ill-Gotten Gains then? My current list has no Xantids, but instead a Duress and the Gains in the sideboard, leaving me with always one wish-able sideboard protection spell. I think you fail to realize how to sideboard with this deck, I was never siding out Probes for all five protection pieces. When I created the five protection sideboard it was a package that was meant to be one or the other - not both.


The main problem in the Sneak Attack and Reanimator match up isn't really about you're SB disruption, it's about Burning Wish being a dangerous and unreliable win condition when you can either A) Give the opponent 7 new cards after he's developed his manabase and you're forced to pass the turn or B) Go All-In on Goblins only to see a Griselbrand (or maybe an Emakrul) resolve.

Ah yes, because Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains never get you there. There are four sideboard engines right now, there aren't too many scenarios where one of them won't win the game.


Burning Wish has an inherent strategy inferiority vs Sneak Attack and Reanimator that you can address by sacrificing a SB slot on Bribery to automatically win the game, and while I understand you're impetuous and adolescent attitude towards anyone who makes changes to your deck other than you given the history of these painfully fucking stupid TES threads, the fact of the matter is Sneak Attack and Reanimator are serious metagame threats right now, which you acknowledged by suggesting Xantid Swarm, and dedicating 1 SB slot to shore up Burning Wish's weakness to these combo-control decks is completely reasonable fwiw.

Yes, let's attack me to make a point. But yet, I'm the one with the "impetuous and adolescent attitude". Look, my lists and threads have results. What exactly have you ever done besides troll the internet?


I also think your comparison to Diminishing Returns "only" being a 4cc card is kind of fallacious, because the odds of winning with Diminishing Returns without floating mana and withouting drawing the opponent into disruption aren't particularly high so Bribery's 5cc cost isn't that unreasonable. You just can't "stop&go" with Diminishing Returns vs. Sneak Attack or Reanimator when passing the turn means they can resolve Griselbrand. You could have mana floating, but you would still need mana floating for Bribery anyway.

[thefringthing]

I'm not really interested in arguing about Xantid Swarm or Bribery or whatever, but the Sneak Show matchup seems terrible for us. It seems like they're about as fast as we are, but they have a mountain of countermagic.

Duress and Inquisition can buy a lot of time if they draw poorly, but being a "traditional" (rather than storm) combo deck, they have very few things they really need to put together. White leylines postboard turns off our hand disruption and requires us to dig out Echoing Truth much of the time.

I'd appreciate any ideas before the SCG Open tomorrow.

EDIT: Contrary to my initial intuition, Bribery seems like it could be a real thing. It requires basically just a Burning Wish and an LED and wins if the Burning Wish resolves.

[joemauer]

I'm not really interested in arguing about Xantid Swarm or Bribery or whatever, but the Sneak Show matchup seems terrible for us. It seems like they're about as fast as we are, but they have a mountain of countermagic.

Duress and Inquisition can buy a lot of time if they draw poorly, but being a "traditional" (rather than storm) combo deck, they have very few things they really need to put together. White leylines postboard turns off our hand disruption and requires us to dig out Echoing Truth much of the time.

I'd appreciate any ideas before the SCG Open tomorrow.

EDIT: Contrary to my initial intuition, Bribery seems like it could be a real thing. It requires basically just a Burning Wish and an LED and wins if the Burning Wish resolves.

The best idea I heard so far has been probe.

They either have a grip of a quick combo that will kill us or a grip with too many counters. It is tough for them to have both. So the free little peek allows us to see if the coast is clear with not much of a drawback. Bryant added two probes to his list but it may be worth it to squeeze in more.

Also, Bribery is tech. Having this in your sideboard makes the matchup unloseable.

[Tammit67]

Also, Bribery is tech. Having this in your sideboard makes the matchup unloseable.

If I am going to go that route, I think I'd rather have telemin performance, as it hurts the decks you want and destroys non creature decks. It just has broader applications. The random Natural order decks that you'd rather have bribery you'd rather combo off around their poor disruption anyway.

Even with 5 mana sorceries in the board, if you can resolve one, I don't see why you couldn't just resolve anything else and win some other way. It is cute to tell your friends later, but not particularly amazing. And surely doesn't make things unloseable

[Pelikanudo]

I've had a look at the lasts updates and I don't understand the -1 A.N +1gitaxian when I was discussing with all in here exactly this.

Please explain.

Well, regarding the things read, just simply go back to:
4 duress
4 chant effects
2 A.N.

Thats the most logical idea OR
3 Duress
1 Probe
4 Chant Effect
2 A.N.

[thefringthing]

If I am going to go that route, I think I'd rather have telemin performance, as it hurts the decks you want and destroys non creature decks. It just has broader applications. The random Natural order decks that you'd rather have bribery you'd rather combo off around their poor disruption anyway.Hapless Researcher.


Even with 5 mana sorceries in the board, if you can resolve one, I don't see why you couldn't just resolve anything else and win some other way. It is cute to tell your friends later, but not particularly amazing. And surely doesn't make things unloseableWith the same resources our options are getting Diminishing Returns with one mana floating and potentially putting them into a hand with action when they didn't have any initially, or an Empty the Warrens which they can race in some situations. I suspect the Bribery has better odds than the Diminishing Returns, even when they're chanted.

I'm probably going to try the Bribery. The question is just on the slot to cut. Right now I'm thinking something like:

{1 Tendrils of Agony, 1 Ill-Gotten Gains, 1 Past in Flames, 1 Empty the Warrens, 1 Diminishing Returns, 2 Deathmark, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Bribery, 1 Shattering Spree, 3 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Duress.}

[Tammit67]

Hapless Researcher.



I have no respect for that card and do not expect to see it. even if they run 1, it is still a slim chance of hitting it.

I would still dim ret most scenerios

[joemauer]

If I am going to go that route, I think I'd rather have telemin performance, as it hurts the decks you want and destroys non creature decks. It just has broader applications. The random Natural order decks that you'd rather have bribery you'd rather combo off around their poor disruption anyway.

Even with 5 mana sorceries in the board, if you can resolve one, I don't see why you couldn't just resolve anything else and win some other way. It is cute to tell your friends later, but not particularly amazing. And surely doesn't make things unloseable

I am sorry. I intentionally made that comment as outlandish as possible so no one would take it serious.

Bribery is bad for all the reasons you mentioned and more. If Burning Wish is resolving with five mana against Sneak and Show we are more often than not winning anyway. There are corner cases where this isn't true and Bribery would indeed win the game, but usually it is just a waste of sideboard space.

[cuthbertthecat]

I've been testing with the following sideboard, and I think it solves the issues that have been addressed. It's pretty close to Bryant's, but a few cards off.

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Echoing Truth
1 Deathmark
1 Shattering Spree
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
3 Xantid Swarm

The thoughtseize is a hedge between duress and inquisition that saves a sideboard slot; while worse than both in the specific matchups where you want them, it gives you 3 good discard effects against maverick while also being a wishable answer to force. I've been playing without grapeshot and haven't noticed any difference, but my sample size is comparatively small. I was also considering cutting the ill-gotten gains for a 4th swarm, as opening one against sneak show and reanimator makes the game hard to lose. The only slight issue is that it gets blocked by griselbrand for 7 life, but generating 3-4 extra storm isn't a huge deal.

The maverick matchup is still about the same, I was undefeated in matches, but lost every game 2, winning the third from being on the play.

[JJ-JKidd]

Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm definitely do matter. Have you played the match-up at all? You can't sit there and wait to out draw them in mana. They will kill you first on turn three/four.



Why are we still arguing Xantid? It's not in my list anymore. But... You're missing my original point of Xantid being protection that helps resolve key spells. Bribery doesn't actually do that and sits dead in the sideboard vs. every other archtype that isn't Reanimator or Show and Tell. Xantid was/is more versatile since it can come in vs other decks. Such as Merfolk - it's what a lot of pros were playing at the invitational, the combo mirror, and decks that sideboard out removal.

You cut Ill-Gotten Gains then? My current list has no Xantids, but instead a Duress and the Gains in the sideboard, leaving me with always one wish-able sideboard protection spell. I think you fail to realize how to sideboard with this deck, I was never siding out Probes for all five protection pieces. When I created the five protection sideboard it was a package that was meant to be one or the other - not both.



Ah yes, because Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains never get you there. There are four sideboard engines right now, there aren't too many scenarios where one of them won't win the game.



Yes, let's attack me to make a point. But yet, I'm the one with the "impetuous and adolescent attitude". Look, my lists and threads have results. What exactly have you ever done besides troll the internet?

You could have mana floating, but you would still need mana floating for Bribery anyway.

Might as well edit the opening post then as the list featured 2 Swarms in the SB

[SaberTooth]

Finished 4-0 yesterday with the old list, beat burn (2-1), Junk (2-1 with a big mistake by myself :P) elves combo (2-0) and sneak and tell (2-1, with progenitus and emrakul, no grizzy)

i really like the old list, i need to test the GP, but, at the moment, i'm fine. i'll test against reanimator and some other decks this week for a tournament on sunday.
i tested with rug delver (without side), and is really hard.... stifle, fow, snare, wasteland and a good clock. Any advice?

[azador]

Finished 4-0 yesterday with the old list, beat burn (2-1), Junk (2-1 with a big mistake by myself :P) elves combo (2-0) and sneak and tell (2-1, with progenitus and emrakul, no grizzy)

i really like the old list, i need to test the GP, but, at the moment, i'm fine. i'll test against reanimator and some other decks this week for a tournament on sunday.
i tested with rug delver (without side), and is really hard.... stifle, fow, snare, wasteland and a good clock. Any advice?

Silence/chant should be a priority. I usually play as aggressive as possible against them. More often then not, you silence, they FoW, then you just stare them down and go off anyway. The chances of them having a super fast clock with a bunch of protection too is pretty low.

Obviously if they have no clock just chill and sculpt until you're comfortable going off.

[thefringthing]

Looks like Ari went in on Bribery and Reanimate for the SCG Detroit Open and did well. I, on the other hand, ran close to as badly as possible for the second competitive tournament in a row. Met some Sourcers whose names I don't recall.

Props to Jon and Ari for recommending Slow's Bar-B-Q, to Slow's for having like two dozen delicious craft beers on tap, and to Chapin and Sullivan for amusing commentary.

Slops to Counterbalance, Candelabra, Cephalid Breakfast, and opponents ripping a second Plating after being made to discard their first.

[AriLax]

Quick tournament report:

5-0 not Force of Will (2 Dredge, 1 Death and Taxes, 1 Doomsday, 1 Enchantress). Lost 1 game to Dredge on the draw and 1 where my Dim Ret whiffed (R float, Sea untapped, land drop used) plus gave him a Thalia.

1-0 Reanimator. T2'ed him game 1, he did some stuff and I died G2, then G3 I sat back on double Silence while we both dug for stuff. Could have Infernalled for a second LED, opted to leave mana up and play LED to not be Thoughtseized as mana was tight. He eventually Thoughtseizes himself, I Silence, he bins Grisel showing hand of reanimation. I untap and Reanimate his Grisel, draw 7, and pass with Silence up. He casually died to his Demon, I ran a victory lap around the room.

0-2 vs CB Top. Kept bad hands 1.5 games that were too slow, got T2 CB'ed with either Force, Top/Brainstorm to stack, or both all 4 games.

Only had 1 turn one kill on the day. Was running very cold. Not many opening 7's featuring LED. Also all the Elves players kept dodging me.

Bribery was actually just because I could. Unsure if good or not, aka didn't get to do it to anyone so I have no idea.

[egosum]

The ONLY good point I can see on Bribery is that it can be cast for value under Iona on Black via Burning Wish --> Bribery, even with Chant/Silence protection.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Bryant Cook]

Just watched Ari's feature match vs. Death and Taxes. A couple of thoughts:

1.) Chapin and Sullivan didn't know much about the sideboard.
2.) Not having Grapeshot required Ari to leave a Deathmark in the sideboard. I prefer to side them both in. (well it appears your board only has one)
3.) Spree kills the Revokers that commentary mentioned.
4.) No Grapehot in the sideboard = no being awesome on camera. Dislike.
5.) Saito slap?
6.) Please don't ever shuffle my deck Ari. I'll cry.
7.) Game one you didn't Wish for 'mark because you didn't want him to leave back Mother. I understood. Sorry the commentary didn't.
8.) I still think Reanimate and Bribery are cute tricks. But I guess it is kind of cool that you got to reanimate Griselbro.

[SaberTooth]

i'll try again grapeshot in the side. i missed the card the other day against a teeg and elves, but pyroclasm did the work. sometimes i feel that grapeshot is an overkill, i mean you can kill teeg but no canonist, and with a wishboard, you can deal with all these cards anyway

[chrisk]

petal into grapeshot does kill canonist. i don't know how often that happens but it is possible.

I can see the reasoning behing cutting the second AdN, but i still don't like it. I agree with Ari on pif, all the times i checked my options for playing burning wish pif was the least preferable one. Probably i'm missing something but i just can't build up a reasonably sizes gy most of the time.

[n0mad]

Just watched Ari's feature match vs. Death and Taxes. A couple of thoughts:

1.) Chapin and Sullivan didn't know much about the sideboard.
2.) Not having Grapeshot required Ari to leave a Deathmark in the sideboard. I prefer to side them both in. (well it appears your board only has one)
3.) Spree kills the Revokers that commentary mentioned.
4.) No Grapehot in the sideboard = no being awesome on camera. Dislike.
5.) Saito slap?
6.) Please don't ever shuffle my deck Ari. I'll cry.
7.) Game one you didn't Wish for 'mark because you didn't want him to leave back Mother. I understood. Sorry the commentary didn't.
8.) I still think Reanimate and Bribery are cute tricks. But I guess it is kind of cool that you got to reanimate Griselbro.

where can i view the archived coverage??

[joemauer]

petal into grapeshot does kill canonist. i don't know how often that happens but it is possible.

I can see the reasoning behing cutting the second AdN, but i still don't like it. I agree with Ari on pif, all the times i checked my options for playing burning wish pif was the least preferable one. Probably i'm missing something but i just can't build up a reasonably sizes gy most of the time.

I use PiF against Rug decks. They counter a lot of our spells while bringing our life down low. Big help.

[thefringthing]

where can i view the archived coverage??
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/322528713
Skip to around 6:25:00 for Ari's match. Also check out his most recent SCG article if you have premium.

[SaberTooth]

petal into grapeshot does kill canonist. i don't know how often that happens but it is possible.

I can see the reasoning behing cutting the second AdN, but i still don't like it. I agree with Ari on pif, all the times i checked my options for playing burning wish pif was the least preferable one. Probably i'm missing something but i just can't build up a reasonably sizes gy most of the time.

ye, you're right, but pyorclasm seems a little less situational, since u don't need petal.

i agree with past in flames, but, a couples days ago, past in flames gave me 2 matches, so now i see the card with new eyes. the funny thing about PiF that day was that post-2 REALLY BAD ad nauseams, and with only 1 life left, that was the only card that saved my ass

Edit: sry for my english :S

[n0mad]

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/322528713
Skip to around 6:25:00 for Ari's match.

thanks man!

[Bryant Cook]

I changed my sideboard for what feels like the fifteenth time this week. I'm very close to the sideboard cutberthecat posted except I'm still running Grapeshot over the third Xantid Swarm.

[cuthbertthecat]

I changed my sideboard for what feels like the fifteenth time this week. I'm very close to the sideboard cutberthecat posted except I'm still running Grapeshot over the third Xantid Swarm.

Yeah, I've been testing and I'm pretty sure grapeshot is correct. For example, today I was playing against u/w miracles with the 2 ad naus list and I came into a situation where I had to ad nauseam end step once into the second ad naus and tendrils, flip down to 1 life, play out spells into tendrils for 6 storm from 1 life to turn on both the second ad naus and my 2 city of brass, ad naus again, and come up with only 4 mana available with a burning wish and 17 storm from digging around with cantrips and casting all my chrome moxen with my opponent at 17 life from fetches and force. Granted, this is very conditional, but losing there for no reason felt pretty shitty.

[Bryant Cook]

Yeah, I've been testing and I'm pretty sure grapeshot is correct. For example, today I was playing against u/w miracles with the 2 ad naus list and I came into a situation where I had to ad nauseam end step once into the second ad naus and tendrils, flip down to 1 life, play out spells into tendrils for 6 storm from 1 life to turn on both the second ad naus and my 2 city of brass, ad naus again, and come up with only 4 mana available with a burning wish and 17 storm from digging around with cantrips and casting all my chrome moxen with my opponent at 17 life from fetches and force. Granted, this is very conditional, but losing there for no reason felt pretty shitty.

2 Ad Nauseams! Would've won if it was a Probe! Also, I often have too many of those corner cases where Grapeshot is good. People think it's only for showboating, it's not.

[Zodiark]

I've been testing this deck when I have some spare time, and really those Probes are lovelly! You almost don't need to scout other decklists since you get Probe, and it's a free storm count that can turn into another storm count after drawing.

Mr. Cook how's going your sideboard now? :laugh: anyone here feels that those Xantid Swarm are becoming a little strange on the sideboard?
At least I don't feel very confortable with them...

[Bryant Cook]

I've been testing this deck when I have some spare time, and really those Probes are lovelly! You almost don't need to scout other decklists since you get Probe, and it's a free storm count that can turn into another storm count after drawing.

Mr. Cook how's going your sideboard now? :laugh: anyone here feels that those Xantid Swarm are becoming a little strange on the sideboard?
At least I don't feel very confortable with them...

My sideboard and the current strategies are on the opening post.

[SaberTooth]

My sideboard and the current strategies are on the opening post.

Bryant, a question about your new side

That Thoughtseize it's because you're playing 1 ad nauseam instead of 2 so it's a little more safe now? why not another duress or inquisition?

how do you feel about shattering spree? at the moment i'm with meltdown because there are a lot of affinitys in my meta, but it is an interesting card. maybe against mud and stoneforge?

[dionykos]

Shattering Spree is a boss against Trinisphere (pay RRR, destroy 3 artifacts) and Chalice of the Void (doesn't counter the copies). They're both enemies of the deck. I really think it must stay in the sideboard.

About Thoughseize: it's a compromise between IoK and Duress. You need 3 discard-creature effect against Maverick, but also a wish-able target against FoW in your sideboard.

[SaberTooth]

Shattering Spree is a boss against Trinisphere (pay RRR, destroy 3 artifacts) and Chalice of the Void (doesn't counter the copies). They're both enemies of the deck. I really think it must stay in the sideboard.

About Thoughseize: it's a compromise between IoK and Duress. You need 3 discard-creature effect against Maverick, but also a wish-able target against FoW in your sideboard.

you're right. Thank you

[Awaclus]

Bryant: I think you might want to remove Gitaxian Probe from the list of cards that didn't make the cut, if you're playing it yourself.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant: I think you might want to remove Gitaxian Probe from the list of cards that didn't make the cut, if you're playing it yourself.

No. I'm not going to update the primer for every single change I make. I do it a couple times a year.

[cuthbertthecat]

2 Ad Nauseams! Would've won if it was a Probe! Also, I often have too many of those corner cases where Grapeshot is good. People think it's only for showboating, it's not.

I've been doing a lot of testing with both lists, and they feel about the same on power level, but I think probe shouldn't substitute for hard disruption. I've probed with the win in hand to see spell pierce and force and had to pass several times, where a duress or chant would've gotten the force and let me just play around the pierce. That said, I think the probe list is very good just based on how insane your ad nauseam becomes when you only play 1, I just think that you still want 8 hard disruption spells with it. Cutting a chrome mox for the 4th duress seems ideal.

You're definitely right about grapeshot needing to be in the board, my current board is now

2 Echoing Truth
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Past in Flames
3 Xantid Swarm

Ill-gotten gains has been mediocre, but that said I'm sure I'll come into several situations where it's necessary. If that's the case, it'll probably go down to 2 swarms.

[SaberTooth]

i think that if u cut the 4th mox, maybe an inquisition is better than the 4th duress

[cuthbertthecat]

i think that if u cut the 4th mox, maybe an inquisition is better than the 4th duress

Maybe, but duress hits force and sneak attack which I expect in higher numbers than Maverick atm.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm pretty against cutting the fourth Mox at the moment. As much as I'd like to, the fourth mox is part of the reason this deck can comfortably cast Ad Nauseam from eight or nine and still expect to win the game. You're decreasing speed and consistency for additional protection, it just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

[SaberTooth]

I'm pretty against cutting the fourth Mox at the moment. As much as I'd like to, the fourth mox is part of the reason this deck can comfortably cast Ad Nauseam from eight or nine and still expect to win the game. You're decreasing speed and consistency for additional protection, it just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

this. i think that the deck have all the protection needed, i mean, 8 spells to protect our victory MD are enough.

[thefringthing]

4-2-1 at a 2K with Ari's sideboard, 4-0 versus decks without counterspells.

Chain of Vapor was much better than Wipe Away or Echoing Truth ever were. Haven't seen any Chalices in play between a GP, a GPT, an SCG Open, and a 2K, though I'm considering switching to 2 Chains and 1 Echoing Truth because of the slight resurgence elsewhere of Merfolk decks with Chalices.

I wouldn't cut the fourth Chrome Mox for anything but a Badlands, and I'm not very inclined to cut it in the first place right now. Bad Ad Nauseam flips already account for a significant proportion of losses, and I'd hate to create more of that.

[vercadium]

this. i think that the deck have all the protection needed, i mean, 8 spells to protect our victory MD are enough.

To clarify, the topic was raised because the list was only running 7 - he was suggesting cutting the 4th Mox to fit in the 8th:


I think the probe list is very good just based on how insane your ad nauseam becomes when you only play 1, I just think that you still want 8 hard disruption spells with it. Cutting a chrome mox for the 4th duress seems ideal.

Not that I think cutting a Mox is correct, but it's important to understand the thought process behind why people are discussing it. An 8th piece of disruption would be nice, but perhaps it's not necessary.

[TBryant23]

Shattering Spree is a boss against Trinisphere (pay RRR, destroy 3 artifacts) and Chalice of the Void (doesn't counter the copies). They're both enemies of the deck. I really think it must stay in the sideboard.

About Thoughseize: it's a compromise between IoK and Duress. You need 3 discard-creature effect against Maverick, but also a wish-able target against FoW in your sideboard.

I might be wrong, but with the Trinisphere out, the Shattering Spree would cost 2R + RR to destroy the 3 artifacts, right, since replicate is an ability and doesn't add to the CMC. Just checking.

[Bryant Cook]

I might be wrong, but with the Trinisphere out, the Shattering Spree would cost 2R + RR to destroy the 3 artifacts, right, since replicate is an ability and doesn't add to the CMC. Just checking.

Opening post dude.

Shattering Spree vs.Trinisphere (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12983&highlight=shattering+spree)

[AriLax]

Something I just realized that probably doesn't matter at all anymore: If Reanimator has Exhume they can easily beat the Chant-Reanimate setup by casting Exhume and responding with Entomb. Good thing for Reanimator mirror matches.

[akabidu]

Made me a TES istead of a ANT, and what motivated me was: its harder to play and underated! This deck is fire.!

But i really dont know about the probe instead of ad nauseam. It's crazy to double your chances to begin with ad nauseam, but in the other side.....probe is pretty insane 2.

You guys that are testing it....what moment is ad nauseam better than the probe(surely is a moment) ?


Flipping a ad nauseam its the worst feeling ever......youre like: " ok im winning", and then : " ok, maybe Ill lose"

[akabidu]

What yall think about a badland instead of 1 underground ? will it work ?

[dionykos]

Something I just realized that probably doesn't matter at all anymore: If Reanimator has Exhume they can easily beat the Chant-Reanimate setup by casting Exhume and responding with Entomb. Good thing for Reanimator mirror matches.

That's a play a good Reanimator player knows because it's good to play around gravehate too. However, I doubt that a lot of players would expect TES to do Chant+Reanimate, so they probably won't hold their Entomb/Careful Study to play around this set-up.

[Awaclus]

What yall think about a badland instead of 1 underground ? will it work ?
No. You can't really have lands that can't tap for blue mana.