[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Lemnear]

The thing with using speed to battle certain types of hate is that you always have to make sure you don't lose to Force of Will or whatever counterspell they maye have ready when you go off. If you go off the turn before they can cast Meddling Mage, Counterbalance or Hymn, you still have to be sure to check whether you're not losing to the usual stuff.

So against Jund I would say speed is definitely an option, but against the blue stuff it seems a big risk to use speed as your main weapon. Let's not forget there are numerous games when you don't draw the nuts, and have to cantrip a few times anyway, opening you up to the mentioned hate regardless. I don't feel that against Patriot, Team A. and Miracles going all in on turn 1-2 is a very promising strategy. And ANT does have a better game when we take our time, while also being better at recovering from Hymn.

The differences might be marginal, but when I look at my own playing style, and the meta we have right now, ANT does seem to have a slight edge.

I just don't see the appeal in having to wait until Counterbalance, RIP, canonist, Meddling Mage and stuff entered the battlefield or Hymn hit your hand and you still have to fight through the mentioned FoW or Clique. Lets not forget that getting rid of stuff like canonist and such eats up cards, mana and potentially a turn or more which can be used to push through early defense like FoW. (another reason the protection suit was fixed to support a faster, 2-colored combo turn)

[Patrunkenphat7]

I just don't see the appeal in having to wait until Counterbalance, RIP, canonist, Meddling Mage and stuff entered the battlefield or Hymn hit your hand and you still have to fight through the mentioned FoW or Clique. Lets not forget that getting rid of stuff like canonist and such eats up cards, mana and potentially a turn or more which can be used to push through early defense like FoW. (another reason the protection suit was fixed to support a faster, 2-colored combo turn)

If that is the biggest issue with ANT, play Empty the Warrens over Ad Nauseam main. Ad Nauseam and PiF win on essentially the same turn in that deck, so having the extra early turn weapon is nice.

[SaberTooth]

ANT vs. TES? that's a new topic

[Patrunkenphat7]

I really just wanted to discuss how certain elements of ANT seem better in this metagame. I actually adopted Empty the Warrens from TES and added it to my ANT deck for a variety of reasons. This is an example of how we can all learn from each other to build a better Storm deck. My initial comment about pimping was inspired by a few people I know/have met who are unwilling to change their list because they need the $500 version of a card. In fact, I read a while back where Bryant played 1 less Xantid Swarm in a tournament than he wanted to because he did not have a foil Japanese version of the card. I never meant for anyone to feel personally attacked by this; I apologize if I offended anyone. I never imagined this would illicit such an emotional response. He has sent me multiple personal messages this morning completely bashing me...

[Asthereal]

I just don't see the appeal in having to wait until Counterbalance, RIP, canonist, Meddling Mage and stuff entered the battlefield or Hymn hit your hand and you still have to fight through the mentioned FoW or Clique. Lets not forget that getting rid of stuff like canonist and such eats up cards, mana and potentially a turn or more which can be used to push through early defense like FoW. (another reason the protection suit was fixed to support a faster, 2-colored combo turn)
On the draw this means you HAVE to go off turn one. With protection, if you want to battle Force.
What are the odds of drawing such a hand with the current TES list? Below 10% I'd say.

On the play you have a turn more, which you typically use to cantrip into a better hand.
But what are your chances of drawing a turn two kill with discard protection? Are they over 50%? I'm not sure.
And let's not forget that when we go for it turn 2, we are also weak to Pierce / Fluster.
So the question is: what are you willing to gamble on? I usually draw hands WAY too weak to count on stuff like this.


Ad Nauseam ... win on essentially the same turn in that deck
@Pat: Ad Nauseam is a LOT better in TES than in ANT, because you can easily cast it with nothing floating. Also Rite is much faster than Cabal Ritual, so your argument that Ad Nauseam in ANT is just as fast as in TES is incorrect, I'm affraid.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Pat: Ad Nauseam is a LOT better in TES than in ANT, because you can easily cast it with nothing floating. Also Rite is much faster than Cabal Ritual, so your argument that Ad Nauseam in ANT is just as fast as in TES is incorrect, I'm affraid.

Sorry, I may not have been clear with my comment. I meant that in ANT (not comparing to TES) the Ad Nauseam is the same speed as Past in Flames in terms of which turn you can usually go off. I completely agree that the card is faster in TES than ANT.

[Bryant Cook]

In fact, I read a while back where Bryant played 1 less Xantid Swarm in a tournament than he wanted to because he did not have a foil Japanese version of the card.

Provide a link. Because up until a few months ago when we started playing Pyroblast I was running a non-japanese foil Swarm in my sideboard.

[Asthereal]

Sorry, I may not have been clear with my comment. I meant that in ANT (not comparing to TES) the Ad Nauseam is the same speed as Past in Flames in terms of which turn you can usually go off. I completely agree that the card is faster in TES than ANT.
Right, I didn't understand that the way you meant it.


... He has sent me multiple personal messages this morning completely bashing me...
Come on Bryant, you're better than that. If you really think his remark was that insulting, you could just demand an apology, or go for the tested "ignore" mode.

[apocolyps6]

Why come into a TES thread and try to get people to agree that ANT is better?

And if it is, is the thread just over?

I lurk here because TES works better for me/my meta/my style than ANT. If the opposite were true, I'd lurk on the ANT forums. This conversation is not productive to this thread outside of the meta-positioning stuff.

Why the browser wars?

[plowshares]

Personally, I enjoy playing both ANT and TES, but I think that ANT is better suited to the current metagame filled with daze/wasteland based tempo decks. If we go back to a format filled with permanent based/graveyard hate, then TES would be in a better position. One Thing I have noticed is that the most recent lists Bryant posts on the OP look more and more like ANT decks with burning wish. That does seem curious. :cool:

[wonderPreaux]

Personally, I enjoy playing both ANT and TES, but I think that ANT is better suited to the current metagame filled with daze/wasteland based tempo decks. If we go back to a format filled with permanent based/graveyard hate, then TES would be in a better position. One Thing I have noticed is that the most recent lists Bryant posts on the OP look more and more like ANT decks with burning wish. That does seem curious. :cool:

D&T and Miracles are enjoying more and more popularity these days, Meddling Mage has remained an issue in any UWx deck, and DRS is a mainstay in many midrange and aggro decks. It's not as though this format isn't filled with permanent based hate and hate for the graveyard. It's really irksome to see people say "ANT is better" when the argument boils down to "I'm ignoring reasons why ANT would have difficulties". It came up a few times already, but even with cards in common, TES and ANT are distinctly different because of cards like Chrome Mox and Rite of Flame that move the fundamental turn forward, even if the mechanics of that fundamental turn are more and more similar to ANT these days. You trade stability for speed, Wasteland and Tax-counters will hit you harder in TES, but you can blaze ahead of hate-bears and GY-hate that would hinder ANT. It's a trade-off, and the people who just ignore half or all of the trade-off really aren't helping to advance the discussion.

[plowshares]

D&T and Miracles are enjoying more and more popularity these days, Meddling Mage has remained an issue in any UWx deck, and DRS is a mainstay in many midrange and aggro decks. It's not as though this format isn't filled with permanent based hate and hate for the graveyard. It's really irksome to see people say "ANT is better" when the argument boils down to "I'm ignoring reasons why ANT would have difficulties". It came up a few times already, but even with cards in common, TES and ANT are distinctly different because of cards like Chrome Mox and Rite of Flame that move the fundamental turn forward, even if the mechanics of that fundamental turn are more and more similar to ANT these days. You trade stability for speed, Wasteland and Tax-counters will hit you harder in TES, but you can blaze ahead of hate-bears and GY-hate that would hinder ANT. It's a trade-off, and the people who just ignore half or all of the trade-off really aren't helping to advance the discussion.

I never ignored reasons why ANT could struggle, in fact I did the exact opposite and listed several factors that could cripple ANT (graveyard and permanent based hate). I also never said that "ANT is just better"; I said that ANT is going to be more successful in our current metagame (which is wasteland/tax-counter based). I also wonder, at what point does TES become so much like an ANT deck with bad mana that we should just play ANT? The new TES lists seem to be abandoning the things that made it TES in the first place, silence and a plethora of 5 color lands. It seems that the new TES is just an ANT deck that loses to wasteland.

[Lemnear]

Personally, I enjoy playing both ANT and TES, but I think that ANT is better suited to the current metagame filled with daze/wasteland based tempo decks. If we go back to a format filled with permanent based/graveyard hate, then TES would be in a better position. One Thing I have noticed is that the most recent lists Bryant posts on the OP look more and more like ANT decks with burning wish. That does seem curious. :cool:

If that is suprising for you, I recommend reading through the last 10 or so pages where the switches are explained. The decks are still about 4 playsets away from each other which is nearly the same gap as RUG Delver and Patriot have. Just saying...

Edit: Dug out the post! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=802811&viewfull=1#post802811)


On the draw this means you HAVE to go off turn one. With protection, if you want to battle Force.
What are the odds of drawing such a hand with the current TES list? Below 10% I'd say.

On the play you have a turn more, which you typically use to cantrip into a better hand.
But what are your chances of drawing a turn two kill with discard protection? Are they over 50%? I'm not sure.
And let's not forget that when we go for it turn 2, we are also weak to Pierce / Fluster.
So the question is: what are you willing to gamble on? I usually draw hands WAY too weak to count on stuff like this.


@Pat: Ad Nauseam is a LOT better in TES than in ANT, because you can easily cast it with nothing floating. Also Rite is much faster than Cabal Ritual, so your argument that Ad Nauseam in ANT is just as fast as in TES is incorrect, I'm affraid.

Lets not forget that we have the same amount of discard main AND a full set of Wishes to grab the sideboard-discard. It's completely legit to discard Hymn first in case you can't go off and burn a second discard or Wish for the FoW.

The was I see it, you have 2 additional advantages with TES:
1) Having the option to race 2cc/3cc hate
2) running an additional virtual playset of discard in form of Burning Wishes

[wonderPreaux]

I never ignored reasons why ANT could struggle, in fact I did the exact opposite and listed several factors that could cripple ANT (graveyard and permanent based hate). I also never said that "ANT is just better"; I said that ANT is going to be more successful in our current metagame (which is wasteland/tax-counter based). I also wonder, at what point does TES become so much like an ANT deck with bad mana that we should just play ANT? The new TES lists seem to be abandoning the things that made it TES in the first place, silence and a plethora of 5 color lands. It seems that the new TES is just an ANT deck that loses to wasteland.

you're acting like the factors that hinder ANT arent prevalent though, when you say "if we go back" to a format with such hate cards. we never left, we're in one now, look at the results miracles, BUG, and D/T put up. implying those cards arent prevalent IS ignoring the factors that hinder ANT. and in a competitive context, saying something is more successful in the metagame is like saying its better, we're here to make these decks successful, after all. further, it's not as those TES auto-folds to Wasteland, it just has a harder time with it. ANT's 2 basics only take it so far, and you pay in operational speed for the ability to run them, especially if you choose to run 3.

[Asthereal]

Death & Taxes isn't getting more and more popular. It's actually going down in popularity right now.
If D&T would be one of the top tier decks, I'd take TES over ANT any day.

@Lem: Yes if Wish and the speed were the only factors I'd take TES as well.
But the Wastelands take out our lands, so Wishing for protection gets harder.
ANT has the more stable mana base (fetch and basics) and more cantrips to find what you need.
And ANT can make them discard Hymn just as easily as TES, so that argument is somewhat flawed. :wink:

[d0nkey]

Death & Taxes isn't getting more and more popular. It's actually going down in popularity right now.
If D&T would be one of the top tier decks, I'd take TES over ANT any day.

@Lem: Yes if Wish and the speed were the only factors I'd take TES as well.
But the Wastelands take out our lands, so Wishing for protection gets harder.
ANT has the more stable mana base (fetch and basics) and more cantrips to find what you need.
And ANT can make them discard Hymn just as easily as TES, so that argument is somewhat flawed. :wink:

If you auto-lose to wasteland in TES, you might be doing it wrong.


Do we really need to be debating over who's weiner is bigger?

[plowshares]

you're acting like the factors that hinder ANT arent prevalent though, when you say "if we go back" to a format with such hate cards. we never left, we're in one now, look at the results miracles, BUG, and D/T put up. implying those cards arent prevalent IS ignoring the factors that hinder ANT. and in a competitive context, saying something is more successful in the metagame is like saying its better, we're here to make these decks successful, after all. further, it's not as those TES auto-folds to Wasteland, it just has a harder time with it. ANT's 2 basics only take it so far, and you pay in operational speed for the ability to run them, especially if you choose to run 3.

We have been in a wasteland/taxing-counter tempo metagame for a long time now. Delver has been winning what seems to be every event lately. You use BUG as an example of a deck that uses permanent hate, but it is the perfect example of a deck that uses a wasteland/taxing-counter disruption package (with a bit of hand disruption added in). You also mention death and taxes, but when is the last time that deck won anything (I think it was about 6 months ago). Miracles, I will give you, but that matchup is rough as ANT or TES so that point seems moot.

As for wasteland, why would you choose to play a deck that loses to it at all. You say that ANT is only slightly better than TES against wasteland (which I disagree with), but why would you give up those percentage points to a card that defines the format.

[tadiou]

Because of what you gain in other areas, obviously. Why do you play one deck over another? One configuration over another? Because they offer advantages in ways that you feel comfortable with.

"As for wasteland, why would you choose to play a deck that loses to it at all."

Why does anyone play any deck ever then? Most decks aren't well equipped to deal with well timed wastelands, the best you can do is minimize it, and part of minimizing it is through construction and understanding that it's possible just on speed alone to make wasteland irrelevant. I think you're overvaluing the impact of wasteland (as evidence from that cherry picked quote where you say pretty much exactly what your position is).

[Asthereal]

This discussion has gone down to a level so low I hardly feel like responding anymore.
I never said TES loses to Wasteland. And those who think it does are idiots.

What is true, is that TES is more vulnerable to Wasteland than ANT.
So many Wastelands in the meta means ANT could have a slight edge compared to TES.

And I don't see why TES vs. ANT is a non-discussion at all. TES and ANT are pretty similar. TES has evolved to something a bit more ANTish and ANT has evolved into something a bit more TESsy. Still, the differences are there, and the question which would be a bit better in the current meta is a very valid question, that can be posed in either thread.

[zangoasyl]

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Eidolon-of-Rhetoric-Journey-into-Nyx-Spoiler.jpg

[Lemnear]

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Eidolon-of-Rhetoric-Journey-into-Nyx-Spoiler.jpg

So what? Thalia and Eathersworn Canonist exist. A Rule of Law with 1 power donesn't matter

[NoizeMe]

Provide a link. Because up until a few months ago when we started playing Pyroblast I was running a non-japanese foil Swarm in my sideboard.

Not that I want to participate in that discussion, but you actually did wrote something like this: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26497_Leaving-A-Legacy-Storming-To-Worchester.html

Still, fact is that some people are trying to compare to decks which both win with ToA, but have less in common otherwise. Also each deck has it's own way to adapt to the everchanging meta. So why comparing ANT to TES?

[Lemnear]

Still, fact is that some people are trying to compare to decks which both win with ToA, but have less in common otherwise. Also each deck has it's own way to adapt to the everchanging meta. So why comparing ANT to TES?

As we run the same core of cards there is the desire to look at each other to find inspiration to tackle new problems and changing metagames, which is absolutely fair. Starting a discussion with a borderline insult to everyone, just because of possibly knowing 1-2 very special, local guys with a strange POV in regards to deckbuilding is not, as it is no way near an "open-minded" discussion to nearly ignore metagame challenges like RIP, Hatebears and discard, but act as if Spell Pierce and RUG Delver are the defining factors and not Thoughtseize/Hymn/Counterbalance+FoW in a field cleary dominated by Team America (which also runs DRS!) and Miracles (yeah I know how to outplay CB+Top with cantrips and Cabal Ritual, in case this pops up)


Edit:

Not that I want to participate in that discussion, but you actually did wrote something like this: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26497_Leaving-A-Legacy-Storming-To-Worchester.html

Proof that you have to mark every joke with a smiley

[Togores]

New hatebear

1W
Egid~something of the gods.
Cresture enchantment - human soldier

You have hewproof.


2/1

[Lemnear]

Aegis of the Gods - 1W

Human Soldier

You have hexproof

2/1

http://www.moxes.com/images/articles/ES_-_Aegis_of_the_Gods_-_global.jpg

Ok, density of storm-hatebears in this set gets ridiculous

[Togores]

They just hate us :cry:

And storm like sneak atack is right now not well positioned in the meta.

Dread of night kills them every day that pases more.

[Lemnear]

They just hate us :cry:

And storm like sneak atack is right now not well positioned in the meta.

Dread of night kills them every day that pases more.

SneakShow is as good as ever due to being a basic combo mechanic of "resolve a single spell"

[Togores]

I dont want to go into the off topic.
But sneak is good cause it destroys everything. But last friday I played. And went 2-3 (wich is my worst results in months) cause une rug with 4 reb for tnn and 2 blue blast. Destroyed me.
And the pairing vs bug delver is hard as fuck. Wastalant. Hymn. Seize. Counters. Pressure an liliana on top of that.

[DarkJester]

True Believer does not get killed by a single Dread of Night. :rolleyes:

[Bryant Cook]

Proof that you have to mark every joke with a smiley

This. Not to mention, I even wrote that the Cabal Therapy ended up being a better choice for the event because of the way things played out.

As for the storm bears in this set, I don't think any of them are better than anything else that has been printed in previous sets. We'll be fine.

[NoizeMe]

As we run the same core of cards there is the desire to look at each other to find inspiration to tackle new problems and changing metagames, which is absolutely fair. Starting a discussion with a borderline insult to everyone, just because of possibly knowing 1-2 very special, local guys with a strange POV in regards to deckbuilding is not, as it is no way near an "open-minded" discussion to nearly ignore metagame challenges like RIP, Hatebears and discard, but act as if Spell Pierce and RUG Delver are the defining factors and not Thoughtseize/Hymn/Counterbalance+FoW in a field cleary dominated by Team America (which also runs DRS!) and Miracles (yeah I know how to outplay CB+Top with cantrips and Cabal Ritual, in case this pops up)

We are exactly on the same page on this.
The point I tried to make was that the discussion if ANT or TES is harder/better/faster/stronger is just senseless.
I could see discussing specific cards or choices from ANT and there applications in TES (e.g. Cabal Ritual, like Bryant already did a couple pages ago), but comparing the decks in general makes no sense, at least in my opinion, as they are very different in play-style.

To me it is like comparing Miracles to UWR Delver.
Yes, the run similar colors. Both play FoW and Brainstorm. But still to very different decks.
That was what I tried to say.



Proof that you have to mark every joke with a smiley

This. Not to mention, I even wrote that the Cabal Therapy ended up being a better choice for the event because of the way things played out.
Personally I do think this was a joke, but since Patrunkenphat7 brought that one up and Bryant seemed to not know what he was referring to, I posted the link.
I did not intend to make any kind of statement with this.

[sawatarix]

My comment on the new canonist:

Fortunately it costs 3.
Unfortunately it is massacre-proof

However with the printing of the white dudes It's time to increase the massacre count in te sb, i played 1 in the side during BoM in november and it was great so far.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Megadeus]

I think that the new True Believer may see some play simply because it isn't double white whick helps out things like Maverick, Deadguy, and whatever else that may want this effect. 3 mana Canonist is not only slower, but costs more. Card is bad. But yeah if I were to play TES I'd probably be on at least 1 Massacre in the board atm.

[Lemnear]

I think that the new True Believer may see some play simply because it isn't double white whick helps out things like Maverick, Deadguy, and whatever else that may want this effect. 3 mana Canonist is not only slower, but costs more. Card is bad. But yeah if I were to play TES I'd probably be on at least 1 Massacre in the board atm.

Now with more fetches I can see this being desired at some point in the future

[Megadeus]

Now with more fetches I can see this being desired at some point in the future

Right. I mean I guess not having access to basic swamp kinda sucks, but you have more access to USeas fwiw. I think it is a strong enough card in a meta full of thalia, meddling mage, canonists and other shit. Unfortunately Teeg is still kind of an issue. I mean it doesnt slow you down, but it's still annoying.

[Patrunkenphat7]

We are exactly on the same page on this.
The point I tried to make was that the discussion if ANT or TES is harder/better/faster/stronger is just senseless.
I could see discussing specific cards or choices from ANT and there applications in TES (e.g. Cabal Ritual, like Bryant already did a couple pages ago), but comparing the decks in general makes no sense, at least in my opinion, as they are very different in play-style.

To me it is like comparing Miracles to UWR Delver.
Yes, the run similar colors. Both play FoW and Brainstorm. But still to very different decks.
That was what I tried to say.



Personally I do think this was a joke, but since Patrunkenphat7 brought that one up and Bryant seemed to not know what he was referring to, I posted the link.
I did not intend to make any kind of statement with this.

Bryant thinks ANT and TES are very similar. Here is a quote from the article you just linked:

"This doesn't seem too different from Ad Nauseam Tendrils (ANT), am I right?

Truth be hold, it's really not.

Both decks are pretty similar."

I think it is worthwhile to discuss the differences in the Storm decks, because I want to play the best deck in the metagame. I don't care which deck that is. People can feel free to disagree with my analysis of the decks, but why is this subject taboo? People flip out when this comes up. In my opinion, it is one of the most useful discussions we can have in a Legacy Storm forum.

[paeng4983]

I think it is worthwhile to discuss the differences in the Storm decks ... the best deck in the metagame ...

As I see it, regardless of countless hair splitting the differences between them, it all boils down to the pilot's decision in handling certain situation.

cheers ^_^

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant thinks ANT and TES are very similar. Here is a quote from the article you just linked:

"This doesn't seem too different from Ad Nauseam Tendrils (ANT), am I right?

Truth be hold, it's really not.

Both decks are pretty similar."

I think it is worthwhile to discuss the differences in the Storm decks, because I want to play the best deck in the metagame. I don't care which deck that is. People can feel free to disagree with my analysis of the decks, but why is this subject taboo? People flip out when this comes up. In my opinion, it is one of the most useful discussions we can have in a Legacy Storm forum.

Yes, they're similar in the same that BUG Delver and RUG Delver are related. They share the same fundamental game plan and strategy as they're both tempo decks, hold on. I'm going to check those threads to see if they're also acting like children - I'll be right back.

EDIT: Nope.

EDIT 2: The reason people have an issue is the way you went about it. If you wanted to address the question it should've been done in the Format & Article Discussion section - not the TES thread. We had a discussion going that you halted because of your opinions.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Yes, they're similar in the same that BUG Delver and RUG Delver are related. They share the same fundamental game plan and strategy as they're both tempo decks, hold on. I'm going to check those threads to see if they're also acting like children - I'll be right back.

EDIT: Nope.

EDIT 2: The reason people have an issue is the way you went about it. If you wanted to address the question it should've been done in the Format & Article Discussion section - not the TES thread. We had a discussion going that you halted because of your opinions.

There's actually been some solid back and forth discussion on this from quite a few people besides me over the last few days. I know that I rub you the wrong way for some reason, and I am not sure why you are being so abrasive, but it would be great if you could keep the sarcastic remarks to a minimum. The personal message attacks were enough. Let's get on track with the Magic discussion.

[Lemnear]

We are exactly on the same page on this.
The point I tried to make was that the discussion if ANT or TES is harder/better/faster/stronger is just senseless.
I could see discussing specific cards or choices from ANT and there applications in TES (e.g. Cabal Ritual, like Bryant already did a couple pages ago), but comparing the decks in general makes no sense, at least in my opinion, as they are very different in play-style.

To me it is like comparing Miracles to UWR Delver.
Yes, the run similar colors. Both play FoW and Brainstorm. But still to very different decks.
That was what I tried to say.


I just added my post to yours as we were chopping in the same notch, not to disagree or correct you :)

The range of 3-4 different playsets within a single mainboard creates quite a gap in Legacy like you can call Team America, RUG and Patriot all twins of the tempo archetype as they are just differing by Hymn vs. Stifle, the creatures and the land-colors. The discussion here reminds me of the one being held in regards to RUG and Team America as RUG players just ignored TNN as a problem to justify still running Tarmogoyfs

[sawatarix]

Well,because everyone here is discussing the difference between Ant and TEs and their strengths:

Las week i joined a legacy tournament with 80 participants and piloted a unusual Ant build to a 5:1:1

Deck: "the machine gun"by Kai Thiele

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Spells:46
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam

Lands:14
1 Bayou
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre


The Decklist is my own brew for this tournament which is Ant with more speed (2 Ad Nauseam,2 Chrome Mox)
And the Deck was insane.
So building hybrids between Tes and Ant could be also a way if you are seeking the best deck for your playstyle.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[trollking21]

Well,because everyone here is discussing the difference between Ant and TEs and their strengths:

Las week i joined a legacy tournament with 80 participants and piloted a unusual Ant build to a 5:1:1

Deck: "the machine gun"by Kai Thiele

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Spells:46
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam

Lands:14
1 Bayou
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre


The Decklist is my own brew for this tournament which is Ant with more speed (2 Ad Nauseam,2 Chrome Mox)
And the Deck was insane.
So building hybrids between Tes and Ant could be also a way if you are seeking the best deck for your playstyle.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

You seem to have made ad nasuem really really bad in this deck. Once you start flipping you have will still have a 5 (ad nas) and 2 4's (past in flames and tendrils) you also lose empty the warrens which I don't know if I like. I don't know much about A.N.T. But are their as nas that bad?

Other then that it looks fine

[bennotsi]

You seem to have made ad nasuem really really bad in this deck. Once you start flipping you have will still have a 5 (ad nas) and 2 4's (past in flames and tendrils) you also lose empty the warrens which I don't know if I like. I don't know much about A.N.T. But are their as nas that bad?

Other then that it looks fine

Before Gitaxian Probe was printed everyone (both TES and ANT) was playing 2 Ad Nauseam main. Sure it's a pain when you flip the other one, but the increased odds of having the card in hand are actually quite nice. So in a list without Gitaxian Probes, it's fine. I wouldn't want to play with only 5 protection spells though.

Also, why are we discussing an ANT list in the TES thread?

[DarkJester]

Before Gitaxian Probe was printed everyone (both TES and ANT) was playing 2 Ad Nauseam main. Sure it's a pain when you flip the other one, but the increased odds of having the card in hand are actually quite nice. So in a list without Gitaxian Probes, it's fine. I wouldn't want to play with only 5 protection spells though.

Also, why are we discussing an ANT list in the TES thread?
4 (duress) +2 (cabal therapy) +1 (thoughtseize) =5 ?:really:

[bennotsi]

4 (duress) +2 (cabal therapy) +1 (thoughtseize) =5 ?:really:

Ah I miscounted. I guess I tried to answer the question of "how on earth has he found space for all that?" too quickly. First I thought he must not be playing Gitaxian Probe, then I thought it was because of fewer protection spells. Now I see that it's because of fewer cantrips. It's an interesting list that's for sure. I would be afraid of not being able to find business with that count of cantrips and business spells, but maybe I just need to tryout the list myself.

[Lemnear]

I don't see the appeal of Young Pyromancer in a deck that runs a shitload on artifacts and Rituals which you don't want to burn for 1/1 elementals. If i woild be in the mood for nicpicking, I would ask there the so-called "resiliency against discard" of ANT is hidden lol. Fact is that this list still has to get hands on 2 initial mana post Ad Nauseam (or IMS + DR) to turn on the Cabal Rituals and still needs to flip, IT, PIF or ToA to win on a reliable base. I don't like Ad Nauseam in ANT and increasing the number of +4cc flips without increasing the quantity of value-cards to reveal to AN isn't THAT hot. AN is a draw7 for attrition wars in here. My 0.02$

P.S.: Kai, this is still the TES thread.

[d0nkey]

I don't see the appeal of Young Pyromancer in a deck that runs a shitload on artifacts and Rituals which you don't want to burn for 1/1 elementals. If i woild be in the mood for nicpicking, I would ask there the so-called "resiliency against discard" of ANT is hidden lol. Fact is that this list still has to get hands on 2 initial mana post Ad Nauseam (or IMS + DR) to turn on the Cabal Rituals and still needs to flip, IT, PIF or ToA to win on a reliable base. I don't like Ad Nauseam in ANT and increasing the number of +4cc flips without increasing the quantity of value-cards to reveal to AN isn't THAT hot. AN is a draw7 for attrition wars in here. My 0.02$

P.S.: Kai, this is still the TES thread.


If we do away with AN in ANT, wouldn't it then become PiFT?

Also, isn't the only other major difference between ANT and TES the fact that TES has the ability to win with <10 storm?

[wonderPreaux]

If we do away with AN in ANT, wouldn't it then become PiFT?

Also, isn't the only other major difference between ANT and TES the fact that TES has the ability to win with <10 storm?

The major difference is that your fundamental turn is faster, part of the reason for that being that you can win with less than 10 storm, but also because you have "faster" ritual effects and more moxen

[Patrunkenphat7]

The major difference is that your fundamental turn is faster, part of the reason for that being that you can win with less than 10 storm, but also because you have "faster" ritual effects and more moxen

You can also win with less than 10 Storm in ANT if you play Empty like I've been playing for a while in that deck.

[Bryant Cook]

You can also win with less than 10 Storm in ANT if you play Empty like I've been playing for a while in that deck.

Part of the issue arguing ANT vs TES is that TES has an agreed consensus amongst most of the players on it's main deck where ANT does not. Your argument is much easier to make when the contents of what you're defending aren't available or exact.

[saur]

Hey guys, take a break from the arguing and check out my tournament report. Any advice you can give to help me improve would be greatly appreciated. I'm still new to this deck, but I hope to turn into a stubborn curmudgeon like all of you one day. ;)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27925-TES-Drive-A-New-Storm-Player-s-First-Tournament&p=806475#post806475

[jin]

The major difference is that your fundamental turn is faster, part of the reason for that being that you can win with less than 10 storm, but also because you have "faster" ritual effects and more moxen

I think the difference dates back to before main decking EtW. The fact that Cabal Ritual needs Threshold, cutting of artifact mana (chrome mox) for lands and the lack of Tutors (half) all together make ANT inherently slower than TES. By playing slower "more powerful" spells in ANT, the deck tends to wait around. TES is more proactive and, arguably, more intrusive because of how aggressive it can be off the opening two to three turns.

Anyone who has played TES for an extended period of time will notice the speed difference and the linear game plan of ANT. The options just aren't there, and the ANT deck tends to just power threw it's problems with brute force. TES plays a more finesse type of game.

That said, I feel that as TES matures, it is moving in a direction ANT has been down. As the list progresses, more and more initial mana sources are being cut, and less colours are being used to cope with the changing landscape of Legacy. It just feels that at some point, the two decks will converge and merge into one. I'm just surprised it's taking so long. ANT has already adopted red and in some lists have adopted Burning Wish, while TES has already moved to a more "stable" mana base. A comparison is bound to happen.


Hey guys, take a break from the arguing and check out my tournament report. Any advice you can give to help me improve would be greatly appreciated. I'm still new to this deck, but I hope to turn into a stubborn curmudgeon like all of you one day. ;)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27925-TES-Drive-A-New-Storm-Player-s-First-Tournament&p=806475#post806475

Also, commented.

[Final Fortune]

I don't think TES and ANT have been or are converging at all, other than the move to discard, of which we're playing Thoughtseize over Duress anyway, the decks are fundamentally separated by their threat density and their mana base. Cutting a Chrome Mox doesn't constitute a move to a more stable mana base, adding basic lands does.

Personally, I think ANT is garbage, it was a deck that thrived when RUG and soft counters was all that Storm had to worry about but as soon as you start throwing hate bears at it it folds like a lawn chair. Just compare the win rates of TES and ANT vs Death&Taxes, that'll tell you everything you need to know about what the decks differences are.

[jin]

I don't think TES and ANT have been or are converging at all, other than the move to discard, of which we're playing Thoughtseize over Duress anyway, the decks are fundamentally separated by their threat density and their mana base. Cutting a Chrome Mox doesn't constitute a move to a more stable mana base, adding basic lands does.

Personally, I think ANT is garbage, it was a deck that thrived when RUG and soft counters was all that Storm had to worry about but as soon as you start throwing hate bears at it it folds like a lawn chair. Just compare the win rates of TES and ANT vs Death&Taxes, that'll tell you everything you need to know about what the decks differences are.

Prior to the drop of the Chrome Mox, Bryant was adamant that there be 4 Chrome Moxen. The inclusion of Gitaxian Probe soften that stance, but none the less, the move is clearly in the direction of ANT no matter how incremental. The switch from rainbow land to extra fetchlands and dual lands is evident of a move towards a more stable mana base.

I'm not saying that TES will eventually become ANT, I'm simply saying they are converging. ANT has taken much more from TES due to the banning of Mystical Tutor and ANT trying to stay relevant. It doesn't weaken the fact that ANT is now playing rainbow lands and some lists are running Burning Wish.

I wouldn't go to the extent of calling ANT garbage. It simply isn't as versatile as TES. I think it's a great deck for people to get into storm combo because it has very clear lines of play. This is important when young storm players are bombarded with tough decision making and a growing wealth of hate cards. Unlike other archetypes, storm combo is much harder to master and a misplay as slight as timing or cantripping can cause a game loss.

[Lemnear]

The switch from rainbow land to extra fetchlands and dual lands is evident of a move towards a more stable mana base.

I think it's a great deck for people to get into storm combo because it has very clear lines of play. This is important when young storm players are bombarded with tough decision making and a growing wealth of hate cards. Unlike other archetypes, storm combo is much harder to master and a misplay as slight as timing or cantripping can cause a game loss.

Two parts I dared to cut out. The increase of fetches and duals was due to the fact that you a) get more shuffle effects and b) because the mass of rainbow lands was no longer needed as the 5. color was cut. I'd not call switching rainbow lands to duals a "move towards a stable manabase". I would label an increase of lands and/or basics that way.

The second passage is something I do get behind and advice myself towards storm apprentices. ANT is much better for learning the basic concepts of storm and once you've fed up by losing to hatebears, graveyard hate, or simply being too slow in the combo mirror, you can choose to step up your game and let go the safety of "Cantrips + Land can fix anything" to enter a new level of complexity with TES

[jin]

As a disclaimer, I have personally never had problems with shuffle effects with this deck.

The move is in response to dropping a color. I get that, but I would contend that it is a move towards a more stable mana base. By moving to a 3.5 color build rather than a 4.5 color build, TES is opening itself up to the inclusion of basic lands. What's a sideboard color anyway? When the meta shifts, it can easily be dropped. I'm not saying it'll happen tomorrow or even next year, but it's an obvious convergence.

[Lemnear]

As a disclaimer, I have personally never had problems with shuffle effects with this deck.

The move is in response to dropping a color. I get that, but I would contend that it is a move towards a more stable mana base. By moving to a 3.5 color build rather than a 4.5 color build, TES is opening itself up to the inclusion of basic lands. What's a sideboard color anyway? When the meta shifts, it can easily be dropped. I'm not saying it'll happen tomorrow or even next year, but it's an obvious convergence.

This is basically the same topic which we had last week. You want to produce a maximum of colors with a minimum on lands in play as your gameplan is streamlined to go into the combo asap (which is near always B+R) unlike in ANT which is designed around cantripping off a basic Island for at least 2 turns (thanks to Cabal Ritual). I feel that this is the boarder both decks cannot cross (atm) as their manabase is a direct result of their mana acceleration (and not the other way round).

[jin]

I agree. A subtle, yet defining, difference between the two decks is in rite of flame versus cabal ritual. We just have to wait for an uber secondary ritual to be printed so that both decks can adopt it. Then we'll see what's what.

[Lemnear]

I agree. A subtle, yet defining, difference between the two decks is in rite of flame versus cabal ritual. We just have to wait for an uber secondary ritual to be printed so that both decks can adopt it. Then we'll see what's what.

Burn what's left behind - R
Sorcery
As an additional cost to play Burn what's left behind, sacrifice a mountain
Add RRRR to your manapool

Yeah, such a card would melt both twins together ... all become one ;)

[anakyn]

I think ANT is garbage, it was a deck that thrived when RUG and soft counters was all that Storm had to worry about but as soon as you start throwing hate bears at it it folds like a lawn chair. Just compare the win rates of TES and ANT vs Death&Taxes, that'll tell you everything you need to know about what the decks differences are.


ANT is much better for learning the basic concepts of storm and once you've fed up by losing to hatebears, graveyard hate, or simply being too slow in the combo mirror, you can choose to step up your game and let go the safety of "Cantrips + Land can fix anything" to enter a new level of complexity with TES


I enjoy TES over ANT because of its complexity, but the argument "TES is better than ANT vs hatebears" depends a lot on the ANT's sideboard: if you build it with 3/4 Dread of Night, the D&T matchup become pretty easier, maybe even more favorable than TES.

[Jin Gitaxias]

it's a shame that they won't print a card like that soon because it would break modern in half. Maybe in the next commander deck.
Assuming this card exists the resulting storm deck would probably not be able to use rainbow lands, so we'd have to decide to either cut green or white from the deck.

[Lemnear]

I enjoy TES over ANT because of its complexity, but the argument "TES is better than ANT vs hatebears" depends a lot on the ANT's sideboard: if you build it with 3/4 Dread of Night, the D&T matchup become pretty easier, maybe even more favorable than TES.

This depends if you are ok with dedicating 3-4 SB slots to a single, fringe pile of creatures or if you decided to play a combo deck to NOT struggle against creatures in the first place.

Having issues with creatures (hatebears) AND other combo decks (speed) AND control (counter, discard, graveyard-hate) raises the question why to bother with playing combo ;)


it's a shame that they won't print a card like that soon because it would break modern in half. Maybe in the next commander deck.
Assuming this card exists the resulting storm deck would probably not be able to use rainbow lands, so we'd have to decide to either cut green or white from the deck.

White WAS cut. TES is a 3,5 color deck atm and can become a 3-color deck at times

[Bryant Cook]

Burn what's left behind - R
Sorcery
As an additional cost to play Burn what's left behind, sacrifice a mountain
Add RRRR to your manapool

Yeah, such a card would melt both twins together ... all become one ;)

To be honest, I'm not even sure if this is playable. It would suck in multiples and couldn't be cast multiple times via Past in Flames/Diminishing Returns.

[Lemnear]

To be honest, I'm not even sure if this is playable. It would suck in multiples and couldn't be cast multiple times via Past in Flames/Diminishing Returns.

Intended. Without a serious drawback it would be plain retarded, especially chaining it into another with PIF. Still makes the same mana as 2 RoF.

[anomie-p]

The second passage is something I do get behind and advice myself towards storm apprentices. ANT is much better for learning the basic concepts of storm

Back in January when my wife got the rest of ANT for me for my birthday, I was thinking about building TES instead but decided on ANT because I came here and it seemed the general consensus was something like the above. Plus building ANT put me a couple chrome mox, rite of flame and burning wish away from building TES anyway (and now I have the wishes, so I'd just need some rites and chrome moxen - I could do it right now but if I did that I'd want to play it and that would bypass the plan of playing ANT to start ...)

I expect to play ANT for a good while and then set myself up to build TES once I'm better at storming people out (and honestly, just better in general :) )

[wonderPreaux]

Hey guys, just to shift focus a bit, I wanted to pick people's brains on side-boarding with the new 4 color version.

I feel like I side fewer cards, since the Silence that would come out in a lot of creature matches aren't there anymore. My sideboarded Thoughtseize, for instance, just sits there since the Silence it would have replaced is, itself, just another Thoughtseize now. I am noticing the discard is very helpful, though, it's more versatile and it gives free info since the opponent can't just concede as soon as I go turn-1 Goblins or something because Silence wouldn't reveal their hand. Do you guys cut more Ponders or something to add the original amount of removal/discard, or is the maindeck Duress split common enough that in creature games, thats how the sided Thoughtseize is fitting in?

I'm also testing a SB Massacre, as mentioned earlier in the thread, I'll report more on that as time goes on. But it's an interesting addition and I feel like, between it and Grapeshot I can very safely approach creature matchups.

One thought I've been having, though, is how often I side out Empty the Warrens. White creature decks have SFM -> Batterskull, and BG/x decks often have Golgari Charm/Engineered Plague to deal with it. I'm pretty comfortable with that, though, whats irking me is that prison decks like Stax have, from what I've seen, been packing cards like EE and Ratchet Bomb, so my quick way of comboing off ahead of their hate permanents is sealed. I'm wondering how people are approaching that matchup.

[mutantknight]

Hello Friends. I've been playing TES for awhile now and decided to play the pre change version (with silence) at SCG Dallas this past weekend after making top 8
in the standard event. I played the deck to a miserable 3-2 finish. Starting 3-0 and losing 2 matches in a row <-- not joking to this:

g3 against UWR

I'm on the play. I have a hand that casts ad nauseum (it's in my hand) on t3. My t1 probe reveals 2 canonist and 1 mage and it becomes quickly apparent that t3 might be too slow =\. On my t2 I proceed to go off (unable to use ad naseum as it is in my hand) and finish with Warrens for 16 which gets flusterstormed. I end
up dying to the attack of 2/2s and while aggravated/annoyed of the outer on top move on to the next round.

g2 against BUG delver.

He wins game 1 off of slow hand by me that watches 3 lands get wastelanded and slowly die a horrible death. g2 hand is okay but thoughtseize + hymn puts me back. However his lack of pressure gets me back to a critical mass of spells. We are on turn 4-5 and I have 2 lands. 1 gemstone and 1 scalding tarn. I probe him seeing stifle, plague (he saw empty in g1) and goyf. I end up passing turn and he draws and passes. I draw wish off the top and can make 16 goblins with mana floating to play around pierce, daze etc. I also have terapy in yard to grab the plague. To test the waters i fetch which he stifles. Knowing that he has 1 unknown card and knowing it has to be either stifle or flusterstorm to blow me out I make the goblins and he storms which i pay for 3 copies, therapy the plague, and proceed to lose to goyf into goyf into delver.

Thoughts on my decision to go for the goblins in g2? Anyways, it was pretty rough to lose to flusterstorm off the top in consecutive rounds and while I love the deck and will be playing it (most likely) at the invitational in june thanks to the standard top 8 the day prior I think I have to let the deck sit on the sidelines for a bit. The hate seems to be at its highest point right now with my opponents consistently having a mass of hatebears and sideboard storms/other counters in addition to the fast clock (delver) and expected counters of daze, pierce, force, etc. thoughts?

[Lemnear]

We had this topic a dozen times: it's impossible to evaluate plays without knowing hand and board. The only thing I can tell is that you probed turns before the information and stormcount delivered by Probe was relevant and threw your hand against an opponent with unknown card in hand.

[Asthereal]

@Mutantknight:

We had this topic a dozen times: it's impossible to evaluate plays without knowing hand and board. The only thing I can tell is that you probed turns before the information and stormcount delivered by Probe was relevant and threw your hand against an opponent with unknown card in hand.
This.

And if your meta consists of that amount of hate, I suggest you play Punishing Jund.
Any Storm variant has a hard time beating 2x Hate bear/Discard spell + 2x Permission spell.

Last remark: against decks where you desperately need all the info you can get, SAVE YOUR PROBE!
Cast it only if you want to go off.
Yes, Lem also said this, but we cannot stress this enough.

[Lemnear]

In a more poetic way I could have said, that I'm not sure at which point you could have won those matches, but I have an idea where you were going to lose them.

[Omega87]

Hey guys,
i have another question to our sideboard. Why do we play Massacre, what about Pyroclasm? It beats Gaddock Teeg and Thalia and Canonist...

[Royce Walter]

Hey guys,
i have another question to our sideboard. Why do we play Massacre, what about Pyroclasm? It beats Gaddock Teeg and Thalia and Canonist...

Pyroclasm is really bad if they have a Mother of Runes.

[Omega87]

That's true, but Massacre is really bad against Teeg!?!
What other cards do we have, hmmm, what about toxic deluge? Some other Options?

[Lemnear]

That's true, but Massacre is really bad against Teeg!?!
What other cards do we have, hmmm, what about toxic deluge? Some other Options?

Pyroclasm is usually slower than Massacre and can't clear Mother of Runes or TNN. Gaddock Teeg is barely played these days and Grapeshot is still in the SB for that case. In hatebear-matchups you can board in Grapeshot now and still have a way to deal with creatures via Wish. Mind the application of Massacre against Spell Pierce out of Patriot.

Pyroclasm however is nice against Elves.

Edit: Deluge is bad. Want to maneuver a 3cc card around Thalia/Daze/Pierce/Wasteland while creatures like the beforementioned Thalia, Delver and Co. whack your face AND have to pay life for that too?

[wonderPreaux]

Gaddock Teeg is barely played these days and Grapeshot is still in the SB for that case. In hatebear-matchups you can board in Grapeshot now and still have a way to deal with creatures via Wish. Mind the application of Massacre against Spell Pierce out of Patriot.

Just for clarification, what matchup other than D&T would you actually mainboard Grapeshot for? I'm thinking against GW/x hatebears, I'd probably want Grapeshot in the SB to Wish for a Teeg out, and against UW/x with Meddling Mage, I'd wanna actually main the Massacre instead, since I might not be able to Wish at all with Meddling Mage out. Though, I guess Pyroblast mitigates Meddling Mage in Patriot matches, and against Esper, it might make sense to main Grapeshot since it could be your back-up win if Wishes get Extract'd.

[BrettF]

@wonderPreaux
I only side out empty the warrens if they are on combo or i know that they have 6-8 sweepers. I find with most decks pressuring us in so many ways keeping the MD empty is necessary to be as fast as possible and you can do some work with discard to clear the way. For example, after testing VS aluren combo, i decided their combo is actually kinda slow and they have dual-axis disruption so empty needs to stay maindeck for T1 blitzing.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlhdXn0CQAAOeBf.jpg

[wonderPreaux]

@wonderPreaux
I only side out empty the warrens if they are on combo or i know that they have 6-8 sweepers. I find with most decks pressuring us in so many ways keeping the MD empty is necessary to be as fast as possible and you can do some work with discard to clear the way. For example, after testing VS aluren combo, i decided their combo is actually kinda slow and they have dual-axis disruption so empty needs to stay maindeck for T1 blitzing.

That make sense, comboing off fast to head off hate, and probably is the most effective way of hitting something like STAX, or lots of discard, its just frustrating to think I'd be conceding some number of games, effectively, to decks that just happen to find their ratchet bomb or golgari charm or w/e off the top.

as an extension to the thought of conceding some number of games, i noticed Bribery and the like arent in the side anymore, is xantid swarm the extent of the reanimator options atm?

[KaiSchafroth]

as an extension to the thought of conceding some number of games, i noticed Bribery and the like arent in the side anymore, is xantid swarm the extent of the reanimator options atm?

Xantid is a big piece against the big creature/S&T decks. They often/flat out don't have a way of dealing with it.
Some might still be running Telemin Performance but I was personally less than impressed with it when I tried it out. I think a few others here even commented that it would have been good in certain games but ended up choosing to go a different/better route.

[Omega87]

Telemin Performance is not my favorite either. When ever i played Vs Show & tell i had other options to kill him right away, other than using TP. I prefer the 2nd CoV in these games, because they use the white leyline again.

[Lemnear]

Telemin Performance is not my favorite either. When ever i played Vs Show & tell i had other options to kill him right away, other than using TP. I prefer the 2nd CoV in these games, because they use the white leyline again.

Who is "they"? Haven't seen a Leyline for a while. Maybe the effect will return in form of Aegis of the Gods and some people want to Splash white mana

[Omega87]

"They" are my local enemies No. 1 in Munich and Nürnberg. Furthermore the 2nd Chain works better in other match-ups, where TP is worth < 0.
And as i said, whenever i had the chance to use TP, i killed him on an other way via PiF or AdN. It's nice to beat them with their own weapons, but it works on our way quite well, too ;-)

and this guy plays them too:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6996&d=240212&f=LE

[jin]

@wonderPreaux
I only side out empty the warrens if they are on combo or i know that they have 6-8 sweepers. I find with most decks pressuring us in so many ways keeping the MD empty is necessary to be as fast as possible and you can do some work with discard to clear the way. For example, after testing VS aluren combo, i decided their combo is actually kinda slow and they have dual-axis disruption so empty needs to stay maindeck for T1 blitzing.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlhdXn0CQAAOeBf.jpg

Bryant is really weird sometimes. He sideboards Empty the Warren for Empty the Warren...

[Lemnear]

Bryant is really weird sometimes. He sideboards Empty the Warren for Empty the Warren...

Are you not doing this?

[Asthereal]

Bryant is really weird sometimes. He sideboards Empty the Warren for Empty the Warren...

Pretending to sideboard several cards can confuse opponents sometimes.
They may think "What could he board against me?" and play accordingly.
You, in the meantime, just go for the straightforward kill.

[jin]

Are you not doing this?


Pretending to sideboard several cards can confuse opponents sometimes.
They may think "What could he board against me?" and play accordingly.
You, in the meantime, just go for the straightforward kill.


Common guys. It was just a joke referencing Bryant's tournament report from last year (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26497_Leaving-A-Legacy-Storming-To-Worchester.html) I thought that was the nature of BrettF's post...

[Lemnear]

I made a joke too ... thought it was obvious on both sides.

I usually board in a bunch of card which I take out again after a single shuffle just to fool opponents and even wrote about that. I wonder if anyone in this thread is unaware of this tactic...

Maybe add a chapter talking about that in the next article.


P.S.: Reading through this threads last 30 Pages gives me so many ideas for that one.....

[wonderPreaux]

I made a joke too ... thought it was obvious on both sides.

I usually board in a bunch of card which I take out again after a single shuffle just to fool opponents and even wrote about that. I wonder if anyone in this thread is unaware of this tactic...

Maybe add a chapter talking about that in the next article.


P.S.: Reading through this threads last 30 Pages gives me so many ideas for that one.....

This was actually a pretty common tactic in YuGiOh, back when i played (dont laugh, its a good game and we were all kids once), you just shuffled your 15 in and pulled 15 out. what made it even better was that decks are 40 cards in constructed with a 15 card side and between generic "good cards" you could actually convert from one decktype to another, and then get easy 2-0s. or you at least give the opponent hell in game 3 or even if they scouted you, because of the mindgames.

[Togores]

Why now we play 2 thoughseize and 1 duress?

why this spit?

what is the advantgae of one over another?

[Holly]

Thoughtseize can hit creatures.
Duress doesn't make you lose 2 life.

That's their advantages.

Why this split? 3 Thoughtseizes can be to much between Probes & creatures attacking you if you're trying to cast Ad Nauseam from a higher life total. On the other hand Thoughtseize can hit creatures.
If you happen to play in a metagame without hatebears feel free to play 3 Duress..if you don't mind the lifeloss feel free to play 3 Thoughtseize.

[jin]

I made a joke too ... thought it was obvious on both sides.

I usually board in a bunch of card which I take out again after a single shuffle just to fool opponents and even wrote about that. I wonder if anyone in this thread is unaware of this tactic...

Maybe add a chapter talking about that in the next article.


P.S.: Reading through this threads last 30 Pages gives me so many ideas for that one.....

Yes it was obvious, but I thought maybe you'd feel left out if I didn't quote you.

[Asthereal]

Common guys. It was just a joke referencing Bryant's tournament report from last year (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26497_Leaving-A-Legacy-Storming-To-Worchester.html) I thought that was the nature of BrettF's post...
Missed the sarcasm sign. That happens sometimes, especially when I spend like three seconds on reading posts before I respond. :cool:

[Lemnear]

Why now we play 2 thoughseize and 1 duress?

why this spit?

what is the advantgae of one over another?

The split is because the damage of Thoughtseize can get really annoying if drawn in multiples. I advice to be more conservative with Probes so you don't have to cast Ad Nauseams from less than 15 life in like every game. It's completely fine if you prepare for a RUG/BUG Delver-heavy metagame by running only Duress, as it is to run 3 Thoughtseize if you have to battle Cliques, control and hatebears all day. The split is a suggestion for the average tourney


Missed the sarcasm sign. That happens sometimes, especially when I spend like three seconds on reading posts before I respond. :cool:

No one was hurt ;)

[sawatarix]

Lifeloss is always bad in a deck whose primary wincondition is ad nauseam.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[cuthbertthecat]

I'm going to be streaming the Legacy daily on MTGO in about 20 minutes with TES. Come watch at twitch.tv/cuthbertthecat if you're interested.

[Omega87]

Streaming is very nice, but with the time shift all over the world it is very unlikely that someone from Germany can watch you playing at 5am...
Maybe you all could make videos instead, so we can watch them in moderate times... ;-)

[bennotsi]

Streaming is very nice, but with the time shift all over the world it is very unlikely that someone from Germany can watch you playing at 5am...
Maybe you all could make videos instead, so we can watch them in moderate times... ;-)

Haha thought exactly the same! I was up till 3 am, but that wasn't enough ;-)

[Lemnear]

Tbh I noticed the post about the stream on my way home from clubbing. Wasn't in the mood/condition/company to watch this one as a result ;)

[Omega87]

Company? :-D hope you had some fun...

By the way, does anybody know some sources to watch tes videos but the starting post?

[BrettF]

What would you do?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmSy_3OCcAAGUcl.jpg:largehttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmSxbOXCEAANJXA.jpg:large

[mario91234]

Keep all those hands


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sawatarix]

Hm i'm not sure abou hands without business but only mana.
I mean it depends,if you are on the draw those hads become slightly better .
Carsten Kotter told me to mullian those hands because you just loose the game if you just draw nothing the first 1-5 turns.

[Togores]

Thing is karsten plays ant nkt tes.
While abt has lower win cards (specialy the only infernal version)

Tes has 10 of them plus 8 blue good drawing spells. I thing this hands arr not so bad in tes.

[BrettF]

Its most fun if you describe
1)Are you keeping
2)if so, what is your first turn play exactly, and what is your game plan moving forward

I'll post mine later

[tadiou]

What would you do?



1A: Bug Delver, On the Draw, Preboard:
Lion's Eye Diamond, Ponder, Dark Ritual, Gemstone Mine, Cabal Therapy, Misty Rainforest, Underground Sea

I'm not entirely sure what I'd do here. I'm pretty sure it's a keep, but I don't know what I'd want to name from the therapy. It's land heavy, if ponder was a brainstorm, I'd probably keep it for sure, but you're basically drawing to business, and I don't know when you'd pull the trigger on the Therapy. If they pull any non-hymn discard on you, the hand gets way worse. Ponder first. Pray second.

1B: Bug Delver, On the Play, Postboard, Mull to 6
Misty Rainforest, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish

I think you just go for it here. Crack Misty for Volcanic Island, Play Petal (SC:1), LED (SC:2), RoF(SC:3, R:2), Crack Petal (SC:3, R:2, B:1), Burning Wish/LED (SC:4, R:3, B:1), Empty the Warrens (SC: 5). I contemplated playing Infernal Tutor, but decided that if they, by chance, happened to have a Surgical or something like that, you could still Burning Wish over IT.

2A: UWR Delver, On the Draw, Postboard
Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Gitaxian Probe, Rite of Flame, Chrome Mox.

I get into a lot of trouble keeping these hands, you get 2 draw steps basically to figure out if you can find business. Hopefully they go T1 Delver, if not, it's probably going to be much longer and grindier. Hypothetically, supposed you do draw into BW on your draw for turn. I'd play Gemstone, Probe (SC: 1) drawing Scalding Tarn, if they played Delver T1, they likely have force + backup or daze, more likely they have daze as they already bounced a blue spell from their hand, being on the play and all. Truth? Flusterstorm, Daze, Daze, Brainstorm, Wasteland, Fetchland. It's why that was a risky keep in the first place against UWR. Chrome Mox imprinting RoF (SC: 2), RoF (SC: 3, R: 2), Dark Ritual (SC: 4, B: 3, R: 2), LED (SC: 5, B:3, R: 2), Crack LED/BW (SC: 6, B:2, R: 3), Gobbos for 7. If they didn't play delver T1, you couldn't actually play around real cards, and would have just draw/go for turns until you were able to get rid of the flusterstorm or force via feigns. Take that burning wish for a thoughtseize.

2B: UWR Delver, On the Play, Postboard, Mull to 6
Gemstone Mine, Lion's Eye Diamond, Pyroblast, Lion's Eye Diamond, Gitaxian Probe, Misty Rainforest

I'd probably keep this. No business, but better than a mull to 5. Lead with Misty, hope you probe into something, not play the mine until you have to.

3A: Sneak and Show, On the Play, Postboard
Gitaxian Probe, Thoughtseize, Lotus Petal, Cabal Therapy, Rite of Flame, Underground Sea, Ponder.

Keeper. Probe. Therapy. T2 Ponder. You have 3 mana, you're looking for more fast mana source (11 outs) and 1 Business Piece (7 outs), finding one piece allows you to Thoughtseize later, and hope to put a bit more pressure on their hand T3.

3B: Sneak and Show, On the Draw, Postboard
Lotus Petal, Ponder, Ponder, Rite of Flame, Pyroblast, Tropical Island, Volcanic Island

I'd also probably keep this. Double Ponder should find you a piece of business (you'll see up to 9 cards resolving both). You can stop the initial show and tell or a piece of countermagic. Pyroblast can be both offensive if you don't find a Xantid (which without knowledge, might be a solid bet).

4A: Death and Taxes, On the Play, Preboard, Mull to 6
Burning Wish, Brainstorm, Gemstone Mine, Dark Ritual, Misty Rainforest, Dark Ritual

Keep. Gemtstone, Brainstorm. If they lead off with Wasting your land, crack Misty if there's nothing in the 2 you put back that's a mana source. You're drawing to a mana source in that case (as Dark Rit = 5 + 1 land). If you happen on an LED, I'd probably go Diminishing Returns (Storm Count 5: U: 3, B: 4, R: 0, AKA: UBB floating with DR, which according to the chart is around 70%+) , if you come upon a thoughtseize or cabal therapy, that'd work too, as your primary goal would be to get rid of a batterskull, which is liable to happen if you go for gobbos, which you still need a mana source for (either a chrome mox or lotus petal, basically a 12 outer). You can get there before Thalia lands and only have to deal with Stoneforge (Combat Math: 20-9-7-4-1).

4B: Death and Taxes, On the Draw, Preboard, Mull to 6
Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond, Gemstone Mine, Misty Rainforest, Cabal Therapy, Burning Wish

Better than a 5. Misty, Crack for Underground Sea, Therapy naming Thalia. Unless you draw a dark ritual or a second LED on the first draw step that's probably your best plan. Dark Ritual would mean, Gemstone Mine, Imprint Chrome Mox with Cabal Therapy, Dark Ritual (SC: 1, B: 3), LED (SC: 2, B: 3), Burning Wish (SC: 3, B: 2, R: 3), Goblins for 4? Actually, seems worse now that I thought about it. LED though would allow you to go with Diminishing Returns. Name Thalia T1 with Cabal Therapy. T2, draw a colored card (or infernal tutor), Imprint Chrome Mox with Ponder (SC: 1), Lion's Eye Diamond (SC: 2), Lion's Eye Diamond (SC: 3), Gemstone Mine, Tap for Red, Tap Chrome Mox, Crack LED 1&2 for UUUBBB, get Diminishing Returns (SC:5, U: 1, B: 1), go from there.

[Lemnear]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmSy_3OCcAAGUcl.jpg:largehttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmSxbOXCEAANJXA.jpg:large


3A

It's unlikely that they combo turn 1, so I would drop U.Sea, Probe (saving probe for EtW is useless) + Ponder into a second land and disrupt them from there

3B

Trop, Petal, Ponder, go. Pyroblast Backup

4A

Gemstone and eot BS to not lose to Thalia or needing a third IMS

4B

Thalia or Wasteland can screw you over regardless if you start either with gemstone -> CT or Fetchland -> pass, so an "optimal" play based on that 6 alone is not available. A lot depends on your drawn card for the turn. This is a keeper and a good start

1A

I like that one. I have no clue how you know that you are against BUG in a bigger tourney, but locally both players have the advantage to know what they are playing against. I would drop U.Sea, Ponder and drop the LED right after, possibly floating business on top into your 2nd or third turn + Cabal Therapy for their FoW

1B

2 Options: gamble 60:40 against FoW for 10 goblins or go for the grindy topdeck game against an opponent with 2 more cards available. I know which one I would choose.

2A

2 free draws and a grip full of mana feat. A peek into your opponents hand? Clear keep.

2B

Better than a mull to 5. Fetchland, go.

[Asthereal]

Its most fun if you describe
1)Are you keeping
2)if so, what is your first turn play exactly, and what is your game plan moving forward

I'll post mine later
Mine:
- All hands on the draw: Depends entirely on the card I draw from the draw step. Obviously. How would it be fun to discuss this?

- 3A: Keep. T1 Sea -> Seize. T2 depends totally on what I saw, and what I took, and what I draw during my draw step.

- 2B: Keep. Probe. Everything depends on what he holds and what I draw from Probe.

- 1B: Keep. I'd probably gamble for Empty the Warrens on turn one. Unless you know that he knows what you are on, and he looks very confident. In that case the chances are big that he has Force of Will. This is a prime example of poker skills needed in MtG.

- 4A: Keep. T1 Mine go. T2 Brainstorm, fetch, do whatever is useful with the four new cards I now see. Might be better to EOT Brainstorm before T2 though. It sees a card less, but it does give me a mana more on my turn. Lem, what would you do? This is the only interesting one, actually.

So if you have any more info, post it, so we can make informed decisions. As you see, nothing can be discussed in detail with so much information missing. Plans adjust every turn depending on freshly drawn cards and acquired information from the opposition we face.

(Edit: miscalculated the mana in 1B. Second try posted.)

[Lemnear]

Lem, what would you do? This is the only interesting one, actually.

I already posted my thoughts above your latest post ;)

[Asthereal]

I already posted my thoughts above your latest post ;)
So you would rather see a card less and gamble on the advantage of having a mana more on turn two?
Note that you are on the play, so Thalia should only come down after your turn two.
It's a trade-off, and there's something to say for either option, so it's interesting for me to see your first chocie differs from mine. :smile:

[Lemnear]

So you would rather see a card less and gamble on the advantage of having a mana more on turn two?
Note that you are on the play, so Thalia should only come down after your turn two.
It's a trade-off, and there's something to say for either option, so it's interesting for me to see your first chocie differs from mine. :smile:

Let me elaborate further: Every drawn RoF or LED is worthless if you brainstorm turn 2 unless you draw a third, initial, non-land manasource in addition or being doomed to pass and applaude your opponent for holding/drawing Thalia/Wasteland/Revoker.

[Asthereal]

Let me elaborate further: Every drawn RoF or LED is worthless if you brainstorm turn 2 unless you draw a third, initial, non-land manasource in addition or being doomed to pass and applaude your opponent for holding/drawing Thalia/Wasteland/Revoker.
Recalculating... :cool:

With the current cards in hand, we cannot win (R BBBBB plus Wish finds us Tendrils for 8).
If we play Brainstorm immidiately, we see a card less. 3 instead of 4.
We win if we find: a Petal, a Mox plus a card to imprint, a Rite, a LED.
If we play Brainstorm the next turn, we see a card more, but...
We need a Mox plus a card to import or a Petal and something else, or Infernal and LED, or a few cominations for which the chances are rediculously low. Probe and LED doesn't work because we need the fetch land.

I'm not a hero in calculating odds, but if I look at it some more, it seems you are right.
Apparently I am more of an ANT player, always looking to optimize my cantrips. I should keep that in mind and try to be aware of that fact in situations like this. Ask myself the question: should I optimize my cantrip, or is another play better?

[Lemnear]

Recalculating... :cool:

With the current cards in hand, we cannot win (R BBBBB plus Wish finds us Tendrils for 8).
If we play Brainstorm immidiately, we see a card less. 3 instead of 4.
We win if we find: a Petal, a Mox plus a card to imprint, a Rite, a LED.
If we play Brainstorm the next turn, we see a card more, but...
We need a Mox plus a card to import or a Petal and something else, or Infernal and LED, or a few cominations for which the chances are rediculously low. Probe and LED doesn't work because we need the fetch land.

I'm not a hero in calculating odds, but if I look at it some more, it seems you are right.
Apparently I am more of an ANT player, always looking to optimize my cantrips. I should keep that in mind and try to be aware of that fact in situations like this. Ask myself the question: should I optimize my cantrip, or is another play better?

I hope you and other readers are not mad at me that I kept my initial response to Bretts examples short as I was going to the gym as I wrote those. With the Eot-Brainstorm you only need to hit RoF, Petal, Mox feat. Imprint, LED or an Infernal aka 17 possible outs to combo turn 2 while you had only 6 (Moxen + Petals) for that if you BS turn 2. That's all I had in mind for my snap-judgement, no %ages or such :)

[d0nkey]

- 4A: Keep. T1 Mine go. T2 Brainstorm, fetch, do whatever is useful with the four new cards I now see. Might be better to EOT Brainstorm before T2 though. It sees a card less, but it does give me a mana more on my turn. Lem, what would you do? This is the only interesting one, actually.



Like Lemnear said, brainstorming at EOT is the right move because you need black and red to combo off on T2 ( assuming you don't see a petal, mox or ad nauseum ). And since it's D&T, we probably want to make an attempt at going off before their 2 drops hit.

[Asthereal]

I hope you and other readers are not mad at me that I kept my initial response to Bretts examples short as I was going to the gym as I wrote those. With the Eot-Brainstorm you only need to hit RoF, Petal, Mox feat. Imprint, LED or an Infernal aka 17 possible outs to combo turn 2 while you had only 6 (Moxen + Petals) for that if you BS turn 2. That's all I had in mind for my snap-judgement, no %ages or such :)
LOL I don't get mad that fast. :tongue:

My snap-judgement was: "Brainstorm on turn two is a better Brainstorm. I see a card more that way."
But I should not forget that, while Brainstorm is the best card in Legacy, it doesn't actually do anything, so casting it might cause me to lose instead. A lovely turn two Brainstorm into fetch into Ponder is great and all, but if the opponent then goes Show>Omni>Enter I stand corrected by the sheer power of cards that actually do stuff. Like "draw your deck" instead of "draw a few cards that might help later on".

Edit: come to think of it, it might actually be correct to cast Brainstorm in our main phase of turn one. Death and Taxes plays no discard, so we don't have to keep our Brainstorm to protect important cards in hand. And there is an outside chance that we draw into a turn one combo (LED, LED, Probe / Petal, Petal, Rite or LED / Infernal, LED, Petal or Mox). I think this outweighs the chance that they might make a play error and Waste our land on turn one, which might mess up our plan a bit. Yes this is a play error, since it slows down their fundamental Hate Bear turn. :wink:

[Lemnear]

I'm an idiot: Forgot that EtW and Ad Nauseam itself are also possible outs! So that actually mean having 19 outs instead of 17 if you cast brainstorm end of turn xP


@Asthereal
I do not like the mainphase BS here as you are not looking for just 1 card only to explode. Being able to adjust you hand in case there is indeed a wasteland coming might be more relevant. Won't matter much

[Asthereal]

I'm an idiot: Forgot that EtW and Ad Nauseam itself are also possible outs! So that actually mean having 19 outs instead of 17 if you cast brainstorm end of turn xP
True.

Edit: But if the Wasteland does come, which does seem like a fine first land to play, trying to mess with the mind of the Storm player, he could still use it after we Brainstorm EOT, or during our upkeep. So that wouldn't make much of a difference, except for the fact that you then know he might use Wasteland. A good D&T player shouldn't use it though, so it shouldn't be of big concern. Trying to gamble on a 1 in 1.000 chance of finding a turn one combo, just to give him one turn less to draw an offbeat Mindbreak Trap seems overelaborate. Still, it's an idea. :laugh:

[Lemnear]

True. But what do you think about casting Brainstorm in our turn one main phase?

See: Lightning edit xD


Edit: I see ... you responded to my instant-editing with an interrupt-edit yourself ;)

[Asthereal]

See: Lightning edit xD

Edit: I see ... you responded to my instant-editing with an interrupt-edit yourself ;)

LOOOOOLLLL stop posting so fast! :tongue: :cool:
Edited my post again. Ninjas, ninjas everywhere! :eek:

[Lemnear]

LOOOOOLLLL stop posting so fast! :tongue: :cool:
Edited my post again. Ninjas, ninjas everywhere! :eek:

Dood, I'm playing storm ... giving people time to respond isn't my thing xD

[Asthereal]

Dood, I'm playing storm ... giving people time to respond isn't my thing xD
Hehe nope not really. :smile:

I'm not posting anything else than this. I'll just wait for your ninja-edit about my other edit, so I can edit this one in response. I'm Chief Editor for a reason. :laugh:

[BrettF]

1A: On the draw // Bug Delver // preboard // opening 7
LED, Ponder, Drit, Mine, Therapy, Misty, USea

Keep.
Ponder t1 to float some business under 2nd from top and play out the LED, cast Therapy t2, go off turn 3.



1B: On the play // Bug Delver // preboard // mull to 6
Misty, Petal, LED, RoF, Infernal, Wish

Keep.
Gamble 60/40! Misty for U.sea, Search for empty with Infernal. This leaves you with 10 goblins, USea to utilize any topdecked discard, and also stocks your graveyard with Infernal, Burning, and rite of flame, which could end up saving you a lot of mana on a past in flames backup plan.

2A: On the draw // UWR delver // postboard // opening 7


RoF,RoF, Drit, LED, Probe, Mox, Mine

Keep.
You get two new cards on your turn and your happy to see any tutors or discard. You already have enough rituals to past in flames so anything goes.

2B: On the play // UWR Delver // postboard // mull to 6


LED, LED, Probe, Pyro, Misty, Mine

Keep.
Cast Gitaxian T1. If they have no FOW and i draw a Ponder or Brainstorm, i’m gonna cast the cantrip breaking both LEDs for BBBRRR. (unless their hand is truly bad)


3A: On the play // Sneak and show // postboard // opening 7
Probe, Seize, Petal, Therapy, RoF, USea, Ponder

Keep.
Probe on T1. Probably ponder unless they represent a T1 combo. If you can’t go straight over their head with a combo, try to cantrip into a Xantid and use your discard to make sure they show and tell instead of sneak attack. Try to achieve the “Xantid Swingback technique” after they show and tell.

On the draw // Sneak and Show // Postboard // opening 7


3B: Volc, RoF, Pyro, Trop, Ponder, Ponder, Petal

Mulligan.
This one is a really hard decision. Trop into ponder, cast petal, pass. Counter show and tell if they cast it. If you find a xantid you could use the pyro to make sure it resolves on turn 2. Otherwise I could counter a ponder or something, or hold out for show and tell? I really don’t wanna be the control deck here which is why i would mulligan. A six card hand with a thoughtseize or a fast combo would be more my style.



4A: On the play // DNT // preboard // mull to 6
Wish, Brainstorm, Drit, Drit, Mine, Misty

Keep.
I think leading on misty and then brainstorm on their endstep is the best bet for playing around wasteland. Leading with mine optimizes your turn 2 cantrips but thats not aggressive enough to beat the lock i think. If i can’t make more than 10 goblins i’ll diminishing returns.

4B: On the draw // DNT // preboard // mull to 6
Mox, LED, Mine, Misty, Therapy, Wish

Keep.
If i draw a DR, Rof, LED, or LP for the turn I’m going to go into a diminishing returns. If i draw anything slower i have to go for the hand attack and pass the turn.
 10 goblins without therapy in the yard isnt gonna cut it, and even 12 goblins is playing 60/40 VS stoneforge. Hopefully i get enough mana to DimRet floating a black so i can thoughtseize their new hand if i don’t miraculously win.



These hands were just some of the first ones i took screen shots of on cockatrice. Next time i’ll try to get some more complex ones, and maybe even a few midgame (aka turn 2) scenarios.

[Lemnear]

On 4A again:

I'm aware that the Fetchland would not necessarily provoke a Wasteland compared to the Gemstone, but personally I'm maybe too afraid of Brainstorm-locking myself. However, the BS-lock would be for only a single turn in that case for the benefit to play around the turn 1 Wasteland. I think you are correct about leading with the Misty instead of the Gemstone here.

[Bryant Cook]

Ari wrote an article on storm this week, it's interesting.

[sawatarix]

Where can i find it Bryant?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bryant Cook]

Starcitygames.com

[Lemnear]

Ari wrote an article on storm this week, it's interesting.

Meh, premium. Anyone want to spoiler a few lines here and there?

[Marcelo65]

Meh, premium. Anyone want to spoiler a few lines here and there?

I can paraphrase some parts since Ari consulted me to give him some insights to the deck. But on the other hand, I am not sure if this would violate SCG's copyrights.
Nonetheless, a very well-written piece of literature.

[sawatarix]

Wow you 2 must be very close friends,i'm kinda jealous.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

I can paraphrase some parts since Ari consulted me to give him some insights to the deck. But on the other hand, I am not sure if this would violate SCG's copyrights.
Nonetheless, a very well-written piece of literature.

And you told Ari about the insane value of "Chrome Mox, no imprint, go". Nice tale, Robert. What about using at least one of your multiple accounts on TheSource to create some quality posts at times? All the trolling you guys put together was kinda funny for a while even if my fun is based in how much time you actually dedicate for that.

[davelin]

Meh, premium. Anyone want to spoiler a few lines here and there?

At a high level the author says that the metagame shifts with regards to tempo, combo and other archetypes have made playing storm much more unfavorable than it was previously.

[Marcelo65]

And you told Ari about the insane value of "Chrome Mox, no imprint, go". Nice tale, Robert. What about using at least one of your multiple accounts on TheSource to create some quality posts at times? All the trolling you guys put together was kinda funny for a while even if my fun is based in how much time you actually dedicate for that.

This accusation certainly does not belong in here, Peter. This thread is about the Legacy Storm-combo-deck: TES and not about stating that someone has "multiple accounts", is "trolling", whatsoever. Let's not start to lower the quality of this forum but instead talk about this awesome deck. Sorry if this post does not contain on-topic content but I feel like I have to state again that I do not want to troll or make funny of people which was the main charge in my tournament report. Cheers.

[Asthereal]

... but I feel like I have to state again that I do not want to troll or make funny of people which was the main charge in my tournament report. Cheers.
You are allowed to rephrase this remark in actual English.

[d0nkey]

Regarding:

2B: On the play // UWR Delver // postboard // mull to 6


LED, LED, Probe, Pyro, Misty, Mine

Keep.
Cast Gitaxian T1. If they have no FOW and i draw a Ponder or Brainstorm, i’m gonna cast the cantrip breaking both LEDs for BBBRRR. (unless their hand is truly bad)


How often does this work out for you? I'm looking at a 10 outer here with 53 cards remaining. Depending on what you see with ponder, I guess your odds of winning if you wait could be worse so maybe you just have to risk it for the biscuit here.

Also regarding:

4A: On the play // DNT // preboard // mull to 6
Wish, Brainstorm, Drit, Drit, Mine, Misty

Keep.
I think leading on misty and then brainstorm on their endstep is the best bet for playing around wasteland. Leading with mine optimizes your turn 2 cantrips but thats not aggressive enough to beat the lock i think. If i can’t make more than 10 goblins i’ll diminishing returns.


Leading with misty is nice here because it disguises our deck for a turn.

Diminishing returns won't work here without a lil help since you will need UU to cast it and 8 goblins is not going to be enough.

I am leaning towards not even brainstorming on endstep and taking one more draw and firing off brainstorm on my next main phase. I think we need to get lucky regardless so I want my brainstorm to count for storm. I might be wrong though.

[Tammit67]

Ari wrote an article on storm this week, it's interesting.

For those of you without premium, the article details why Ari thought storm was such a good choice when he was advocating it heavily (think year = 2010) and how decks nowadays each have had printings/metagame shifts to allow themselves better game against storm.

Ari's experiences have mirrored my own. Decks today rarely are devoid of the problematic cards and i haven't encountered a "bye" round in quite a while. TES's ability over AnT to react to hate and its speed make me feel that if there is a solution to the hate, ti is with the more diversified storm deck.

Bryant, in consideration to the points Ari addressed, do you feel Storm is in an awkward position currently? Particularly in postboard games? Do you and Royce go into events with TES with the expectation of 'having the best deck in the room', or with the expectation of 'having the best deck in the room for yourself'?

[Lemnear]

You have close to 1/3 of your deck as outs to find with Brainstorm.. Dunno if that qualifies as "being lucky". I fully disagree with giving D&T 2 full turns to draw into hatebears and Wastelands.

Edit:

Bryant, in consideration to the points Ari addressed, do you feel Storm is in an awkward position currently? Particularly in postboard games? Do you and Royce go into events with TES with the expectation of 'having the best deck in the room', or with the expectation of 'having the best deck in the room for yourself'?

First of all: Thx for giving a brief summary of the article. :)

[d0nkey]

You have close to 1/3 of your deck as outs to find with Brainstorm.. Dunno if that qualifies as "being lucky". I fully disagree with giving D&T 2 full turns to draw into hatebears and Wastelands.

I can only assume you were replying to me.

As it sits, we are making zero goblins.

We get 5 black, and one red mana.. not sure how we are going to even make goblins with a burning wish at that point without getting lucky and drawing one of 4 petals, 4 leds, 4 rite of flame, or mox + red card.

Am I missing something here?



Edit: I read on the twitter that you're writing an article on storm, where can people read that when you publish it?

[davelin]

I can only assume you were replying to me.

As it sits, we are making zero goblins.

We get 5 black, and one red mana.. not sure how we are going to even make goblins with a burning wish at that point without getting lucky and drawing one of 4 petals, 4 leds, 4 rite of flame, or mox + red card.

Am I missing something here?



Edit: I read on the twitter that you're writing an article on storm, where can people read that when you publish it?

A BS next mainphase has much less outs that the EOT one. Any of the cards you mentioned above is an out for EOT, for mainphase you now need a combination of Petal/Mox+Red card AND Rite of Flame or LED. Not worth it to see one more card and one more storm.

[Lemnear]

I can only assume you were replying to me.

As it sits, we are making zero goblins.

We get 5 black, and one red mana.. not sure how we are going to even make goblins with a burning wish at that point without getting lucky and drawing one of 4 petals, 4 leds, 4 rite of flame, or mox + red card.

Am I missing something here?



Edit: I read on the twitter that you're writing an article on storm, where can people read that when you publish it?

Yes, it was a reply to you :)

you need to hit a single RoF, Petal, LED, Ad Nauseam, EtW or Infernal (depends what you can out back) to potentially combo turn 2. chances to find at least one of those within 3 cards off the Brainstorm isn't that low.

The article in question (called it an "user manual feat. FAQ's") will be offered to the usual websites once finished (haven't written a word for 2 days). I'll keep you guys updated.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant, in consideration to the points Ari addressed, do you feel Storm is in an awkward position currently? Particularly in postboard games? Do you and Royce go into events with TES with the expectation of 'having the best deck in the room', or with the expectation of 'having the best deck in the room for yourself'?

I haven't felt like TES was the best deck in the room since Shardless was at it's peak. TES crushed that deck! Currently, BUG Delver isn't favorable which is kind of an issue with it's popularity - I still think it's an incredibly strong choice. I plan on playing it Saturday in Binghamton, it's what I'm best with even if I haven't been playing it recently (I've been playing a variety of island-based decks in my locals - people started main decking Chalice of the Voids, Cannonists and Meddling Mages).

[Royce Walter]

I find solace in having the best sleeves and hat combo in the room.

In all serious, the decline of Thalia and Leyline of Sanctity, in addition with the rise of BUG Delver, make ANT a really strong choice right now. TES is still a good choice, and it's nice that any time you have a bad matchup, you can always just kill them on turn 1.

[Megadeus]

I always have TES as an option in case of a last minute audible at an SCG. I have confidence in the deck. It's more my own storm skill I'm worried about

[d0nkey]

I find solace in having the best sleeves and hat combo in the room.

In all serious, the decline of Thalia and Leyline of Sanctity, in addition with the rise of BUG Delver, make ANT a really strong choice right now. TES is still a good choice, and it's nice that any time you have a bad matchup, you can always just kill them on turn 1.

I play TES simply because I love how well it combos on turn 1 and 2. Large tournaments are soo much more fun when you get to spend 50 minutes between rounds doing other things besides grinding out matches.

[Tammit67]

I find solace in having the best sleeves and hat combo in the room.

In all serious, the decline of Thalia and Leyline of Sanctity, in addition with the rise of BUG Delver, make ANT a really strong choice right now. TES is still a good choice, and it's nice that any time you have a bad matchup, you can always just kill them on turn 1.

The hat is how I find you. I don't recall the sleeves.

Hope to see you guys Saturday

[Bryant Cook]

#teamstorm will be there. I still think TES is better right now than ANT.

[.Ix]

Re: metagame,

I'll be playing in a small 8-12 man tourney this Sunday, with a meta that has at least one of each of these decks: Burg delver (Eric Rill build), RUG delver, Miracles, Sneak and Show, Esper Blade, Dredge, Pox, and MUD. Is it a good idea to play TES in this meta? I have no matchup experience with MUD, Pox, and Esper Blade, but I know the rest of the decks can be hard matchups.

[Tammit67]

Re: metagame,

I'll be playing in a small 8-12 man tourney this Sunday, with a meta that has at least one of each of these decks: Burg delver (Eric Rill build), RUG delver, Miracles, Sneak and Show, Esper Blade, Dredge, Pox, and MUD. Is it a good idea to play TES in this meta? I have no matchup experience with MUD, Pox, and Esper Blade, but I know the rest of the decks can be hard matchups.

If you want to get better with the deck, you shouldn't avoid hard matchups. The only deck I cringe at there is sneak and show, the rest are whatever.

[tadiou]

#teamstorm will be there. I still think TES is better right now than ANT.

Are there #teamstorm t-shirts? Or commemorative hats?

[.Ix]

It's not that I'm afraid of bad matchups. I just want a good chance at winning because it's been a while since we had any Legacy around here. I've won twice with TES some time ago so it's possible that they'll be expecting it. I have had a hard time with Miracles so far, but I suppose I just need more practice in the matchup.

[wonderPreaux]

Hi again everyone.

I've been playing more and more TES, and I've been having a good time of it. I seem to alternate between 3-1s and 0-2-drops on dailies, so I feel like sometimes things are clicking, and sometimes my lack of knowledge or skill is coinciding with some bad beats and keeping me down. I think I'll just keep grinding away at it to improve, but I'd like to borrow a bit of the thread's experience for some sticking points that have come up for me:

1) BUG decks
I'm not really sure how to approach these matchups. Discard, Deathrite and a smattering of swarm answers and/or taxing counters seem like irksome threats. Moreover, there's such a wide variety of techs and directions for the deck's configuration that the only thing you could really glean is if they're a faster build by seeing delver or not. Even then its a guessing game of whether they have golgari charm, pernicious deed, extraction, clique or even something like null rod. To make matters worse, nothing in the SB from me really stands out. Pyroblast ranges from "meh" to "bad" depending on the speed of the variant, Abrupt Decay/Chain of Vapor feels lackluster against them, xantid swarm is a joke, etc. I'm just wondering how people are handling these sorts of decks.

2) Hatebears/permanents
Last night on stream i ran into a shit-storm (heh) of chalices, teegs, thalias, and the like. Between a lack of sleep and an increasing amount of tilt, I was pretty frustrated by the end of the night. But what really stuck out to me was the lackluster performance of Abrupt Decay. I know I need answers to Chalice, and I know getting hatebears off the table is probably better than hoping my discard would coincide with them having a lone hatebear to start, but it just feels awkward having to board out an extra card to for the Trop, and then having this (relatively) expensive card that i can even get color-screwed off of. I'm thinking against Chalice I can't skip decay, but for midrange hatebear sorts of things just boarding in Chains (I run 2) and a Thoughtseize and just trying to maintain as much speed as possible might be a better line. What's everyone else's experience with Decay?

3) Burning Wish, the Sideboard and Tendrils
This is a little something I could use some insight on. I know the sideboarding guide suggests boarding out Infernal Tutor and Ponder, which makes them Burning Wish targets. For Tutor though, would I be correct in only doing that in control matchups, to open the Wish > Tutor > Ad Nauseam line, and then keeping the Tutor in the main for midrange/tempo to increase the probability of comboing off ASAP? I'm not really sure as the common theme seems to just be boarding out Tutor against Blue decks regardless of speed. The other dimension of sideboard is the Tendrils coming into the main to replace EtW in control, and to ward against Extraction on wish. I'm unsure how wary of Extraction I should be, and if there are any other reason to have "natural" Tendrils in (the guide recommends it against Miracles, for instance), does anyone have any insights on this for various matchups?

[sawatarix]

Well the article does not mean that storm is a weak deck or anything like that currently.

It's still super-broken and one of the most powerful decks in the entire format but now there are way more ways to deal with storm (compared to 2010)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

Hi again everyone.

I've been playing more and more TES, and I've been having a good time of it. I seem to alternate between 3-1s and 0-2-drops on dailies, so I feel like sometimes things are clicking, and sometimes my lack of knowledge or skill is coinciding with some bad beats and keeping me down. I think I'll just keep grinding away at it to improve, but I'd like to borrow a bit of the thread's experience for some sticking points that have come up for me:

1) BUG decks
I'm not really sure how to approach these matchups. Discard, Deathrite and a smattering of swarm answers and/or taxing counters seem like irksome threats. Moreover, there's such a wide variety of techs and directions for the deck's configuration that the only thing you could really glean is if they're a faster build by seeing delver or not. Even then its a guessing game of whether they have golgari charm, pernicious deed, extraction, clique or even something like null rod. To make matters worse, nothing in the SB from me really stands out. Pyroblast ranges from "meh" to "bad" depending on the speed of the variant, Abrupt Decay/Chain of Vapor feels lackluster against them, xantid swarm is a joke, etc. I'm just wondering how people are handling these sorts of decks.

this is not a matchup where you want to be reactive. Mind that there are FoW, Daze and Hymn in the Tempo variants (control variants should not be a big Problem overall) with additional discard might coming from the side. Hymn is your biggest Problem here, so you want to board out "slow" cards like Ponder for the Tropical (and possibly the SB discard) to gain stability. Key is to lessen the impact of discard by dropping your mana on the field and floating Business on top of your library. BS in response to discard can save you. Though matchup regardless

2) Hatebears/permanents
Last night on stream i ran into a shit-storm (heh) of chalices, teegs, thalias, and the like. Between a lack of sleep and an increasing amount of tilt, I was pretty frustrated by the end of the night. But what really stuck out to me was the lackluster performance of Abrupt Decay. I know I need answers to Chalice, and I know getting hatebears off the table is probably better than hoping my discard would coincide with them having a lone hatebear to start, but it just feels awkward having to board out an extra card to for the Trop, and then having this (relatively) expensive card that i can even get color-screwed off of. I'm thinking against Chalice I can't skip decay, but for midrange hatebear sorts of things just boarding in Chains (I run 2) and a Thoughtseize and just trying to maintain as much speed as possible might be a better line. What's everyone else's experience with Decay?

Boarding Decays against decks like D&T with all their Thalia, Wastelands and Ports is doomed to fail and I highlighted that dozens of times through the thread after I did the same mistake more than a year ago and got slapped. It's fine to board in Tropical and CoV against hatebears, but the Key to win is to combo before they drop a hatebear. We even had this headlined in the "how to play these hands" on the previous pages. Just take a 7 (or a 6) that can get some Goblins or Ad Nauseam going before their turn 2 and you're fine.

3) Burning Wish, the Sideboard and Tendrils
This is a little something I could use some insight on. I know the sideboarding guide suggests boarding out Infernal Tutor and Ponder, which makes them Burning Wish targets. For Tutor though, would I be correct in only doing that in control matchups, to open the Wish > Tutor > Ad Nauseam line, and then keeping the Tutor in the main for midrange/tempo to increase the probability of comboing off ASAP? I'm not really sure as the common theme seems to just be boarding out Tutor against Blue decks regardless of speed. The other dimension of sideboard is the Tendrils coming into the main to replace EtW in control, and to ward against Extraction on wish. I'm unsure how wary of Extraction I should be, and if there are any other reason to have "natural" Tendrils in (the guide recommends it against Miracles, for instance), does anyone have any insights on this for various matchups?

Infernals are usually a redundant card in matchups which will last longer like against control or against decks which will you cut off from effective Ad Nauseams (aka early turns + enough life) like some forms of tempo. It's perfectly fine to keep the Infernals in for midrange blue decks if you ask me unless you desperately look for boarding slots.

Boarding the ToA for EtW usually comes in hand with the boarding of Infernal against control decks which are able to clear the board from Goblins like BUG control with Deed. You want a MB wincon in case Wish gets extracted and if they Extract your Infernal you can still use a Wish to chain into Infernal (SB) for the MD ToA.

[Final Fortune]

Abrupt Decay is awful vs any hate bear deck and Pyro Blast is better vs Miracles, I'm not really sure why everybody is hanging on to that card personally.

As far as the "no more free wins goes," this is an eternal format and you shouldn't be expecting free wins to begin with, if you get your odd Jund or Junk or Taxes player and get to kill them on the play that should be "free win" enough in Legacy.

[wonderPreaux]

@Lemnear
Re: BUG: If I'm understanding you, it seems like its good to just aggressively setup mana and keep my tutors/wishes safe, i feel like that would lead to me just taking the most aggressive or risky line that comes for the sake of speed. I tend to agree with that though since letting them get varied hate/disruption going seems like more than I could progressively handle.

Re: Hatebears: My SB runs the recommended Massacre and runs a second Chain of Vapor, so I think I could manage siding the Grapeshot into the main, keep Massacre as a Wishable out, and then also have 2 Vapors. This would give me some outs, and then my line would just be trying to Belch or Ad Nauseam asap. On the other hand, if my general plan is just to go off asap, i might not need to be boarding 3 cards, idk...

Re: Siding Infernal/ToA: I feel like there's a weird tension with siding out the Tutor. Against tempo, for example, Tutor > Ad Nauseam might not be as good a line, but having the Tutor still in the main for more consistent Warrens seems really relevant. Or against Miracles, the game is slower, but I don't see them having much of a clock. Against Esperblade or midrange BUG decks, I could see having the Tutor out of the main, even if I was keeping EtW in, though. I understand that the ToA/EtW swap does tend to need the sided Tutor for consistent wins, but I'm wondering how fearful of Extraction I'd have to be to "inconvenience" my main like that. I guess the reason I'm getting bogged down by this is that some of these control decks tend to bleed into midrange and vice-versa, so it's hard to tell just how i'm supposed to be orienting my win conditions

@ Final fortune
its usefulness against miracles aside, isn't abrupt decay an out for Chalice, and some other things like painter or the like?

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear
Re: BUG: If I'm understanding you, it seems like its good to just aggressively setup mana and keep my tutors/wishes safe, i feel like that would lead to me just taking the most aggressive or risky line that comes for the sake of speed. I tend to agree with that though since letting them get varied hate/disruption going seems like more than I could progressively handle.

Playing around Daze is your Bread and Butter in Legacy and if you have your mana in play you can nearly "ignore" all the hymns, Duress and Thoughtseize fired at you. You can either push fast for the combo as you only really care for FoW or go for a longer game off the topdeck

Re: Hatebears: My SB runs the recommended Massacre and runs a second Chain of Vapor, so I think I could manage siding the Grapeshot into the main, keep Massacre as a Wishable out, and then also have 2 Vapors. This would give me some outs, and then my line would just be trying to Belch or Ad Nauseam asap. On the other hand, if my general plan is just to go off asap, i might not need to be boarding 3 cards, idk...

i don't see why boarding out slower setup spells prohibit a gameplan to go off asap. Lets call Chain and Co. "Backup"

Re: Siding Infernal/ToA: I feel like there's a weird tension with siding out the Tutor. Against tempo, for example, Tutor > Ad Nauseam might not be as good a line, but having the Tutor still in the main for more consistent Warrens seems really relevant.

you know what we are talking about the requirement to have LED in addition and throwing your whole hand against a deck with Pierce, Daze, FoW, Flusterstorm and REB postboard?

Or against Miracles, the game is slower, but I don't see them having much of a clock.

That's why you want to evade drawing a second Infernal clogging your hand.

Against Esperblade or midrange BUG decks, I could see having the Tutor out of the main, even if I was keeping EtW in, though. I understand that the ToA/EtW swap does tend to need the sided Tutor for consistent wins, but I'm wondering how fearful of Extraction I'd have to be to "inconvenience" my main like that.

It's not because of Extraction. I mentioned it as a benefit to Dodge Extraction in matchups in which you board out EtW regardless as the mentioned BUG control which will have sweeper + Extraction postboard

I guess the reason I'm getting bogged down by this is that some of these control decks tend to bleed into midrange and vice-versa, so it's hard to tell just how i'm supposed to be orienting my win conditions

@ Final fortune
its usefulness against miracles aside, isn't abrupt decay an out for Chalice, and some other things like painter or the like?

[wonderPreaux]

Alright, I think I get you. Infernal Tutor is a bit more restrictive than Burning Wish and those corner cases make a bit more sense now. Thanks a lot, I appreciate the explanation.

[Lemnear]

Alright, I think I get you. Infernal Tutor is a bit more restrictive than Burning Wish and those corner cases make a bit more sense now. Thanks a lot, I appreciate the explanation.

Anytime

[Megadeus]

Re: metagame,

I'll be playing in a small 8-12 man tourney this Sunday, with a meta that has at least one of each of these decks: Burg delver (Eric Rill build), RUG delver, Miracles, Sneak and Show, Esper Blade, Dredge, Pox, and MUD. Is it a good idea to play TES in this meta? I have no matchup experience with MUD, Pox, and Esper Blade, but I know the rest of the decks can be hard matchups.

Seems like an uphill battle imo. The Delver decks are tricky, Miracles is also tricky since they do have outs to an early empty, sneak and show is another combo deck that gets to play force of will, and MUD is pretty horrid for you if they get a lock piece. Good luck, but seems rough.

[sawatarix]

Who is going to attend Bom9 today in annecy?

12h infinite trials (counting to 10) here we go ;D


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[apocolyps6]

are there matchups or situations where it makes sense to take out rite of flame to have it as a tutor target?

I've played the 4 color version, and I think it is great, but Sensei's Top is everywhere in my meta (miracles, DDFT, high tide, reanimator) would the 5 color version be more correct here?

[Megadeus]

are there matchups or situations where it makes sense to rite of flame to have it as a tutor target?

I've played the 4 color version, and I think it is great, but Sensei's Top is everywhere in my meta (miracles, DDFT, high tide, reanimator) would the 5 color version be more correct here?

Meh. I wouldn't board out rite of flame. Also silence is pretty decent vs top as opposedd to more discard

[wonderPreaux]

are there matchups or situations where it makes sense to take out rite of flame to have it as a tutor target?

I've played the 4 color version, and I think it is great, but Sensei's Top is everywhere in my meta (miracles, DDFT, high tide, reanimator) would the 5 color version be more correct here?

In terms of mana, the first and successive net mana for rite of flames is +1, +2, +3 and +4
This makes it awkward for wish, because you either have to wish the turn before the combo, which is subpar, or wish for the third/fourth rite, and having two already in hand is less likely since you sided one out. i'd rather leave them in since infernal tutor already does the card-duping job

[BrettF]

I tried two Cabal Rituals in my local last night, scrubbed out, but that had nothing to do with Cabal Ritual. The metagame is just very hostile towards storm. The one game where they were relevant was a Past in Flames turn, the additional power from them was recognized immediately. I'm still not sure if they're necessary, but it wouldn't hurt to continue testing.

I've been playing this for close to a month. Excellent configuration!


4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Ritual
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor

[Final Fortune]

@Lemnear
Re: BUG: If I'm understanding you, it seems like its good to just aggressively setup mana and keep my tutors/wishes safe, i feel like that would lead to me just taking the most aggressive or risky line that comes for the sake of speed. I tend to agree with that though since letting them get varied hate/disruption going seems like more than I could progressively handle.

Re: Hatebears: My SB runs the recommended Massacre and runs a second Chain of Vapor, so I think I could manage siding the Grapeshot into the main, keep Massacre as a Wishable out, and then also have 2 Vapors. This would give me some outs, and then my line would just be trying to Belch or Ad Nauseam asap. On the other hand, if my general plan is just to go off asap, i might not need to be boarding 3 cards, idk...

Re: Siding Infernal/ToA: I feel like there's a weird tension with siding out the Tutor. Against tempo, for example, Tutor > Ad Nauseam might not be as good a line, but having the Tutor still in the main for more consistent Warrens seems really relevant. Or against Miracles, the game is slower, but I don't see them having much of a clock. Against Esperblade or midrange BUG decks, I could see having the Tutor out of the main, even if I was keeping EtW in, though. I understand that the ToA/EtW swap does tend to need the sided Tutor for consistent wins, but I'm wondering how fearful of Extraction I'd have to be to "inconvenience" my main like that. I guess the reason I'm getting bogged down by this is that some of these control decks tend to bleed into midrange and vice-versa, so it's hard to tell just how i'm supposed to be orienting my win conditions

@ Final fortune
its usefulness against miracles aside, isn't abrupt decay an out for Chalice, and some other things like painter or the like?

More often than not aggro decks set Chalice of the Void at 0 as a free Null Rod vs Storm, and if they plan to set Chalice of the Void at 1 they open themselves up to discard.

I've updated my version of the deck, I've cut the 2nd discard spell from the SB, the 4th Chrome Mox from the MD and moved the 4th Infernal Tutor to the empty SB space in order to add 2 lands MD - a 5th Fetchland and a 2nd Volcanic Island - hoping to improve the aggro-control match ups. 13 lands feels like a sweet spot for TES off a mull to 6.

[wonderPreaux]

More often than not aggro decks set Chalice of the Void at 0 as a free Null Rod vs Storm, and if they plan to set Chalice of the Void at 1 they open themselves up to discard.

I've updated my version of the deck, I've cut the 2nd discard spell from the SB, the 4th Chrome Mox from the MD and moved the 4th Infernal Tutor to the empty SB space in order to add 2 lands MD - a 5th Fetchland and a 2nd Volcanic Island - hoping to improve the aggro-control match ups. 13 lands feels like a sweet spot for TES off a mull to 6.
I get the "Null Rod" interaction, where chain of vapor is a feasible out, but isn't a Chalice on 1 a threat on the play, since artifact decks have tomb/traitors and land decks have mox diamond?

[Final Fortune]

I get the "Null Rod" interaction, where chain of vapor is a feasible out, but isn't a Chalice on 1 a threat on the play, since artifact decks have tomb/traitors and land decks have mox diamond?

Over a 3 game match the opponent can only be on the play once with Chalice of the Void assuming he isn't MDing it, I don't really think that's worth SBing for.

You just have to learn to play the odds, IMO.

[Lemnear]

If your meta starts pairing Chalice/Mindbreak Trap with Hatebears/Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance or is moving towards decks like Painter/MUD in general, I'd consider switching decks for a while and laugh at their dedicated storm hate.

Seriously, there is a soft-spot for local tournaments where playing storm does not make sense anymore as there is no reliable solution.

Look at my Painter Game 3 during Friday at the BoM 8. Him on the play: T1 Thorn of Amethyst, T2 Magus of the Moon, T3 Thorn #2 ... It's not that storm can metagame against this.

[BrettF]

Anyone taking this deck to BOM9?

[wonderPreaux]

i don't see why boarding out slower setup spells prohibit a gameplan to go off asap. Lets call Chain and Co. "Backup"

just a followup question that occurred to me: if Chain is the backup plan and the main goal is a quick combo, is massacre even that good in the side? grapeshot is wishable-removal as is, and slowing down to react doesn't seem stellar, not even considering the fact that it only works with Underground Sea. I've had massacre in my SB for a couple weeks, and I really haven't been getting a lot of mileage out of it, and i think that might be the reason. is anyone really liking the massacre?

[Omega87]

Yes i do like massacre, you do not allways win the dice roll or have a first turn kill. So they might play some kind of hatebear. This stops you possibly for some turns and they put some other bears into play. Massacre gets rid of them as soon as you can go for it/ win.

[Lemnear]

just a followup question that occurred to me: if Chain is the backup plan and the main goal is a quick combo, is massacre even that good in the side? grapeshot is wishable-removal as is, and slowing down to react doesn't seem stellar, not even considering the fact that it only works with Underground Sea. I've had massacre in my SB for a couple weeks, and I really haven't been getting a lot of mileage out of it, and i think that might be the reason. is anyone really liking the massacre?

I guess you miss the wider application here. Massacre is a possible backup against D&T, but another reason to run it is against stuff like the UW Delver/SFM supertype. Sweeping a Delver + SFM and occasional Meddling Mages/Ethersworn Canonists turns around the whole game.

Wishing for a Massacre and just sitting on it plus a fetch gives you all the time you need against D&T as you can just sweep on demand and combo without Résistance

[wonderPreaux]

I guess you miss the wider application here. Massacre is a possible backup against D&T, but another reason to run it is against stuff like the UW Delver/SFM supertype. Sweeping a Delver + SFM and occasional Meddling Mages/Ethersworn Canonists turns around the whole game.

Wishing for a Massacre and just sitting on it plus a fetch gives you all the time you need against D&T as you can just sweep on demand and combo without Résistance

I feel like having 2 other lands and then a fetch in, at most, a 13 land deck would be something of a stretch at times, especially against delver's clock or the push of damage from cannonist (idk how good a meddling mage check massacre is, since the mage would typically call wish). im not saying i havent been considering massacre, im saying its been hard to get millage out of it or make it really effectual. I'll keep testing it though, to see if i can turn more games with it, since even though it sort of suffers from the same "i can get mana-screwed off this" problem as abrupt decay, i like it more since sitting in the wishboard means its never a dead draw.

[Lemnear]

I feel like having 2 other lands and then a fetch in, at most, a 13 land deck would be something of a stretch at times, especially against delver's clock or the push of damage from cannonist (idk how good a meddling mage check massacre is, since the mage would typically call wish). im not saying i havent been considering massacre, im saying its been hard to get millage out of it or make it really effectual. I'll keep testing it though, to see if i can turn more games with it, since even though it sort of suffers from the same "i can get mana-screwed off this" problem as abrupt decay, i like it more since sitting in the wishboard means its never a dead draw.

The fetch + massacre was mentioned for D&T, not for Delver. Don't look for definitive and easy answers for various scenarios. I feel that between CoV, boarded Grapeshot, Pyroblasts and 2cc Sweepers aka Wish into Massacre you should manage to fight back hatebears and the Patriot menace

[wonderPreaux]

The fetch + massacre was mentioned for D&T, not for Delver. Don't look for definitive and easy answers for various scenarios. I feel that between CoV, boarded Grapeshot, Pyroblasts and 2cc Sweepers aka Wish into Massacre you should manage to fight back hatebears and the Patriot menace

I appreciate the advice, I admittedly dont have a ton of experience, so i'll keep my head up and see what I can figure out. I actually had a really drawn out, close match against patriot delver last night. i got the overall win, but if i had been more aware of massacre opportunities, maybe i couldve just crushed it, so i'll watch that and see what i can pick up.

[ThomasDowd]

I've been playing this for close to a month. Excellent configuration!


4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Ritual
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor

I'd probably play the 7th discard over the 2nd C.Rit. that's so much mana 10 rituals + LED's + petals, looks liek you may get clogged on mana and not action. These are the worst times IMO. To me the beauty of TES lies in the knife's edge you run on to close out games. It is the tempo combo deck in that one small mistake on turn 1 will cost you the game in my mind. Like playing tempo ekeing out and capitlilzing on the small misplays/ small margins is where you will get games and really boost your win percentage.

I like the IT side but upon thinking about it some more having 10 action game one and then falling to 9 in g2, g3 is fine. and that line(BW>IT>AN) costs a bajillion mana (but i guess in this config it is very doable), Other than PiF lines how relevant is C.Rits threshold?

TL;DR: I'd rather have more disruption than mana.

[d0nkey]

TL;DR: I'd rather have more disruption than mana.

I agree with what he said, but I'm more intested in knowing how good cabal rituals work out for you.

The reason I play TES is so that I can just dump my hand and make goblins if I get the right read from my opponent and cabal ritual doesn't seem to fit too well into that plan.

Are there times where cabal ritual feels like an all-star and not just a 'win more' card in your configuration?

[BrettF]

The cabal rituals open up a lot more late-game options for tutor chaining, PIF loops, and Burning for Infernal for AdNauseam. As a side effect of all those options becoming much better, you almost never need to grab diminishing returns. The OP list may be ideal for an open meta and jamming ETW on turn 1, but if you find yourself playing out the mid-game against blue decks a lot, the cabal rituals pick up some serious slack.

[Bryant Cook]

Royce and I played in a 142 man Legacy event yesterday. I finished 14th and he finished 4th, we both ran two Cabal Rituals with an Infernal in the SB, no Diminishing Returns.

4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Tropical Island
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames

I brought it up to Royce that I never once discarded a creature with the MD Thoughtseize. He runs Duress over them, I may follow suit and switch back. He opted to not run Massacre and run the second Chain of Vapor - Although, without Thoughtseize I think the Massacre gains more weight. The idea behind Cabal Ritual is that it provides enough mana to be able to Wish for Infernal for Ad Nauseam making Returns something of the past, it also makes our tertiary win condition, Past in Flames, a lot more reliable and robust. I was very happy with the list for the most part, I lost a round to Eric English with Food Chain that I should've won and then was defeated by an above average draw from Team America. It happens.

[wonderPreaux]

Royce and I played in a 142 man Legacy event yesterday. I finished 14th and he finished 4th, we both ran two Cabal Rituals with an Infernal in the SB, no Diminishing Returns.

4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Tropical Island
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames

I brought it up to Royce that I never once discarded a creature with the MD Thoughtseize. He runs Duress over them, I may follow suit and switch back. He opted to not run Massacre and run the second Chain of Vapor - Although, without Thoughtseize I think the Massacre gains more weight. The idea behind Cabal Ritual is that it provides enough mana to be able to Wish for Infernal for Ad Nauseam making Returns something of the past, it also makes our tertiary win condition, Past in Flames, a lot more reliable and robust. I was very happy with the list for the most part, I lost a round to Eric English with Food Chain that I should've won and then was defeated by an above average draw from Team America. It happens.

It sounds like focusing more on the potential of threshold and PiF makes you more grave-dependent, and one of the things I like about this deck in general is the ability to ignore such cards a lot of the time. Did you ever feel like the increases interaction with the graveyard was a liability? Also, did the reduced amount of discard spells ever present a challenge?

[Holly]

Since no other manasources were taken out for the Cabal Rituals you're not really more graveyard depend then before. Sure if your only rituals are CRit you can get harmed by GY-hate though before you wouldn't have the mana to do anything so that point is mood.

[Togores]

At the end Cabal does the same withouthaving 7 cards in grave like a single rite of flame (+1mana). So its not a big problem.


The thing on going down in discard is what makes me doubt usualy the correct disruption number is 7 in all decks (magic number).

[wonderPreaux]

At the end Cabal does the same withouthaving 7 cards in grave like a single rite of flame (+1mana). So its not a big problem.


The thing on going down in discard is what makes me doubt usualy the correct disruption number is 7 in all decks (magic number).

I think saying 7 is "correct" is an oversimplification. Sure, you're one discard spell lighter, which might lose you some games against combo or control, but you now have extra percentages against discard and in a weird way the extra mana spells can increase the percentage of those "belcher" hands for going off in the face of hatebears. the ability to power BBBBB out of a ritual can also lets you play around a few soft counters, which can be as good as a discard spell, in that it made the counter irrelevant. against RUG Delver, where you'd want discard for Stifle and get pressured on lands to the point where Cabal Ritual is unappealing in sequencing, for example, you can still just play Pyroblast instead postboard, which beats those cards youd want to discard, while buying time against Delver and splitting the disruption among 2 colors. trading points in matchups you feel arent as relevant to improve ones you feel are more relevant in the meta is just good strategic development.

one thing you could consider is another Thoughtseize in the sb, if you expect a lot of combo or hatebears and would really be missing the other mb discard. but there arent many other appealing cards to shave for the second cabal rit, imo. ponder is maybe the most expendable, and even then youd be just shaving psuedo business when the deck is now one business spell lighter already. i think the interesting interaction there is that you can side in the other infernal tutor then anyway, since that loss would be felt most against decks youd want to combo quickly against. the main point is that discard tends to not beat discard decks, whereas an improved PiF line does.

[Final Fortune]

I think the efficacy of Thoughtseize vs Duress depends on the number of MD Vendilion Cliques and SB Meddling Mages you expect to face, I've played with both and generally prefer to be prepared for the worst case scenario i.e. I play Thoughtseize instead of Duress.

I agree with SBing an Infernal Tutor and I don't mind cutting the 7th disruption card, but I'm not certain you should cut Diminishing Returns or play Cabal Ritual over lands if you're trying to go to the late(r) game mainly because we don't have the same number of Fetchlands as ANT has in order to reach Threshold, the same number of Cabal Rituals in order to reach BBBBB.

Personally I'd rather fit every land and fetch land I can into the deck at this point, that's guaranteed consistency.

[Bahamuth]

I haven't played this list, so I'll put my objections to 2 Volcanic 4 fetch in a deck with threshold cards aside and ask a question: How often do you use the sideboarded Infernal Tutor? Do you find that the CRits enable BW->IT->AdN or similar plays enough to cut a copy of the best business spell from your main?

[Final Fortune]

I haven't played this list, so I'll put my objections to 2 Volcanic 4 fetch in a deck with threshold cards aside and ask a question: How often do you use the sideboarded Infernal Tutor? Do you find that the CRits enable BW->IT->AdN or similar plays enough to cut a copy of the best business spell from your main?

I don't think Infernal Tutor is the best business spell in the MD, it's often the most redundant business spell in the MD if the game goes long(er) and you should be used to playing Infernal Tutor in the SB regardless because you SB it games 2/3 in almost every match up vs Islands. I find with the additional lands and shuffle effects in the deck ~9 business is about the right number.

I find I wish for it vs Miracles really often.

[Bryant Cook]

I think the efficacy of Thoughtseize vs Duress depends on the number of MD Vendilion Cliques and SB Meddling Mages you expect to face, I've played with both and generally prefer to be prepared for the worst case scenario i.e. I play Thoughtseize instead of Duress.

I agree with SBing an Infernal Tutor and I don't mind cutting the 7th disruption card, but I'm not certain you should cut Diminishing Returns or play Cabal Ritual over lands if you're trying to go to the late(r) game mainly because we don't have the same number of Fetchlands as ANT has in order to reach Threshold, the same number of Cabal Rituals in order to reach BBBBB.

Personally I'd rather fit every land and fetch land I can into the deck at this point, that's guaranteed consistency.

If you're that worried about those cards swap out the pair of Duress for the Pyroblasts and side in the Thoughtseize as well. I just haven't been using it as anything other than another Duress, simply no reason to lose life at this point - if the metagame switches back to more hatebears so will we.

I didn't miss Diminishing Returns at all, one thing Royce and I did notice was how much better Past in Flames was.

Don't be so aggressive! I still want Gemstone Mines, we need to be able to support our green cards out of the sideboard. Not to mention, Gemstone Mine does kill itself! In hands where I opened with both, I played Gemstone first and actively tapped it, even on my opponents' end steps for no reason just to get it in the graveyard faster.

[sawatarix]

Congratulation Royce and Bryant, nice to see that cabal ritual performed well - it was very obvious: who doesn't want to have more copies of black lotus in the deck.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[wonderPreaux]

If you're that worried about those cards swap out the pair of Duress for the Pyroblasts and side in the Thoughtseize as well. I just haven't been using it as anything other than another Duress, simply no reason to lose life at this point - if the metagame switches back to more hatebears so will we.

I didn't miss Diminishing Returns at all, one thing Royce and I did notice was how much better Past in Flames was.

Don't be so aggressive! I still want Gemstone Mines, we need to be able to support our green cards out of the sideboard. Not to mention, Gemstone Mine does kill itself! In hands where I opened with both, I played Gemstone first and actively tapped it, even on my opponents' end steps for no reason just to get it in the graveyard faster.

Out of curiosity, did the lower amount of disruption ever make things more difficult or risky for you? Also, do you feel that the subtle shift to more mana cards, relative to business/disruption, makes sideboarding more awkward?

[Bryant Cook]

Out of curiosity, did the lower amount of disruption ever make things more difficult or risky for you? Also, do you feel that the subtle shift to more mana cards, relative to business/disruption, makes sideboarding more awkward?

I didn't notice the lack of disruption, but I did notice more mana made plowing through soft counters MUCH easier. Sideboarding was a little awkward, mostly because I wasn't sure on what to do yet. I believe that in fast match-ups where we need protection we should be siding out Cabal Rituals, but in fast match-ups where we don't need it (Such as Elves/D&T) we board in the land and tutor instead. I'm still in the process of figuring it all out.

[wonderPreaux]

I didn't notice the lack of disruption, but I did notice more mana made plowing through soft counters MUCH easier. Sideboarding was a little awkward, mostly because I wasn't sure on what to do yet. I believe that in fast match-ups where we need protection we should be siding out Cabal Rituals, but in fast match-ups where we don't need it (Such as Elves/D&T) we board in the land and tutor instead. I'm still in the process of figuring it all out.

The thing I thought would make siding tricky is that commonly you'd side a tutor out, and now thats already done, so it could get awkward there. I think I'd be most concerned about, say, a combo mirror where the one fewer discard spell might make it tough to fight them in the disruption exchanges. I'll try out this new build tonight for my stream and post how it plays through the matches, i might play with a 1-1 split of duress/thoughtseize, though.

[Lemnear]

The thing I thought would make siding tricky is that commonly you'd side a tutor out, and now thats already done, so it could get awkward there. I think I'd be most concerned about, say, a combo mirror where the one fewer discard spell might make it tough to fight them in the disruption exchanges. I'll try out this new build tonight for my stream and post how it plays through the matches, i might play with a 1-1 split of duress/thoughtseize, though.

In the current metagame I don't see a reason to run Thoughtseize in the 75. Discarding was near never relevant in the recent weeks but life was. Switched to Duress/Therapy

[wonderPreaux]

In the current metagame I don't see a reason to run Thoughtseize in the 75. Discarding was near never relevant in the recent weeks but life was. Switched to Duress/Therapy

i thought the split has some merit because of hitting clique/canonist and letting you swap the 1 duress for the sb thoughtseize to maintain 6 discards against D&T. still, i can understand the life to be important, especially with increased emphasis on Ad Nauseam. I'll go ahead with double Duress tonight then, and see how it goes.

[.Ix]

I actually played almost the same deck yesterday -1 Chrome Mox +1 Ad Nauseam. (There's so much discard here that Chrome Mox can be a real liability. AN is fantastic off the top or a cantrip and it's much easier to cast than IT -> AN.) Went 3-1 losing to Miracles, beating Elves, Esper Blade, and Deathblade. I had a very very hard time sideboarding, too.

[Bryant Cook]

In the current metagame I don't see a reason to run Thoughtseize in the 75. Discarding was near never relevant in the recent weeks but life was. Switched to Duress/Therapy

I'm most likely keeping 'Seize in my sideboard over Duress.

@Wonder- Worry about the combo mirror when you're the faster deck is a little weird, we don't need as much protection if we have increased speed. Not to mention, you can always side more in if need be.

[wonderPreaux]

I'm most likely keeping 'Seize in my sideboard over Duress.

@Wonder- Worry about the combo mirror when you're the faster deck is a little weird, we don't need as much protection if we have increased speed. Not to mention, you can always side more in if need be.

mostly i worry because there are matchups like reanimator where im not the faster combo deck. and there are some occasions where combo matchups just turn into discard-fests and having less business and discard in exchange for mana, something we tend to have more of than other combo decks anyway, makes me feel like i could get caught with a lot of mana and then nothing to do with it. i'm going to test this config tonight though, and see how it feels, im pretty excited to try the new build

[Bryant Cook]

mostly i worry because there are matchups like reanimator where im not the faster combo deck. and there are some occasions where combo matchups just turn into discard-fests and having less business and discard in exchange for mana, something we tend to have more of than other combo decks anyway, makes me feel like i could get caught with a lot of mana and then nothing to do with it. i'm going to test this config tonight though, and see how it feels, im pretty excited to try the new build

Then don't do it?

Something you need to accept in magic is that you're not always going to win, Reanimator is one of those match-ups where you're not favored. You have to ask yourself is it worth it to even try? Or am I better off increasing other match-ups? I believe that hedging percentages against other decks will do me better in the long run.

[Togores]

Sincé DRS came out and dredge and reanimator where not more tier 1. I havent played in sneak attack one card of grave hate. You are mostly going to lose to reanimator even siding 3 cages so you just improve your other mathups and if you play reanimator you dont care because you went x-1 in general.

the same to TES

[d0nkey]

I played in a small tourney this weekend. Didn't do too well but here's the list I ran:

4 gemstone mine
2 city of brass
3 mistry rainforest
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
4 lotus petal
3 chrome mox
4 lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 gitaxian probe
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 cabal therapy
3 duress
4 infernal tutor
4 burning wish
1 ad nauseum
1 empty the warrens
-----
1 empty the warrens
1 tendrils of agony
1 diminishing returns
1 grapeshot
1 thoughtseize
1 massacre
2 xantid swarm
2 abrupt decay
1 tropical island
2 pyroblast
2 chain of vapor


Round 1 vs mono black pox
Game1: Won the paper, rock, scissors. Opening hand was a snap keep. Gitaxian probe showed he has dark ritual + thoughtseize + hymn. Sad panda. Led off with a ponder to setup the turn 2 kill. 12 goblins get the job done even after that discard.
Game2: He gets thoughtseize -> hymn -> liliana. So it's time to grind. His only pressure is a mishra's factory and it gets me down pretty good. I am able to chain of vapor liliana before she hits ultimate, and then the turn before she gets to ultimate again, I ponder into LED+LED+blank. Thankfully I had burning wished for a past in flames 3 turns earlier (discarding it to liliana). I also had an infernal tutor and 2 burning wishes in the GY from earlier as well. He ultimates and I'm left with a single LED. Next turn I play LED and flashback Past in Flames -> dark rit x3 -> infernal tutor for LED, sac to make UUU. Ponder, ponder, brainstorm -> find a lotus petal for red, burning wish for tendrils. Loved that win.

Round 2 vs 12post
Game1: probe shows no disruption, so a bad ad nauseum into a swarm of goblins on turn 2 gets the job done.
Game2: another grindy match. I am able to shred his hand a bit to stop him from going ham early but it doesn't matter because I am unable to go off before prime time hits the board and gains him a ton of life and emrakul seals the deal.
Game3: I have to mull to 5 (sad panda #2). I make 10 goblins on my turn 2. seemed good enough considering the mull to 5*. Unfortunately he was able to lay a 2/2 blocker, gain just enough life to not die on turn 4 and then prime time stabilizes him. I blocked prime time with 6 goblins to trade, but the posts + eye of ugin are able to take over. Close game.

Round 3 vs Reanimator
Ugh.
Game1: Probe shows no disruption. So probe again, and fetch then Ad nauseum from 15 gets the job done.
Game2: I get xantid swarm out turn 1. But he is able to reanimate elesh norn to kill it and stop the goblin play. Griselbrand came out next turn and he draw a force off of the top 14 to stop me from comboing off (surprise).
Game3: I kinda feel bad about this one because he is a good fella. But we grind for a bit. I discard his business, he counters mine. He exhumes Elesh Norn again to stop the goblins, then I get a turn where I get 7 black mana and an LED then I cast ad nauseum holding an infernal tutor in hand.
He thinks about it out loud and says "well, I lose to ad nauseum, and I lose if you have tutor in hand, so I will force the AdN and hope you don't have it". I couldn't win on the spot there, but I figured I would as least go get a therapy and wreck his hand. So I cast infernal tutor and he scoops and extends the hand. I felt bad and I didn't want to make him feel worse so I just pointed out that if he had just gotten Iona for black those 2 games he would've won.

Round 4 vs death and taxes with blue
Game1: On the draw
Burning wish, infernal tutor, RoF, brainstorm, ponder, gemstone mine, gitaxian probe.
Would you have kept this hand?

I have kept similar hands before and drawn into mana so I decided to just get lucky. He leads off with land -> Mom. Probe shows me thalia, wasteland, plains, true-name, vendillion clique. and I draw a cabal therapy off of the probe. Now I really hate this situation. If I grab thalia, then my only land gets wasted. If I ponder to find a land then Thalia hits the board. So I end up casting ponder to set up a land. Ponder shows me a second burning wish, a city of brass and a brainstorm. I grab city and float brainstorm ontop of burning wish, but this next turns go thalia -> cannonist + wasteland -> then I blacked out a bit and don't remember. Scoop.

Game2: I setup a turn 2 play for 16 goblins. I don't have any hand disruption or probes so I have no idea what he has. His turn 2 he calmly throws out the singleton ratchet bomb from his sideboard. after thalia, spirit of the lab and cannonist get in there, it's all over but the crying.

So 2-2. Not great.

Not sure if I should have waiting a turn or 2 longer against 12post instead of making 10 goblins. I had a good idea 10 wouldn't have been enough, but after a mull to 5, it probably looked better than it actually was.

Any glaring mistakes that I didn't already point out I would love to hear what you think. Also curious to hear what you all would've done with that hand 1 against DnT. I feel like it was a keeper, but turned into a disaster really quick. I also knew he was playing DnT so that should factor into it as well. Maybe I should have just taken Thalia and risked it for the biscuit since he didn't have much else going on in that hand. I don't know. I hate getting wastelanded out.

[ThomasDowd]

I didn't notice the lack of disruption, but I did notice more mana made plowing through soft counters MUCH easier. Sideboarding was a little awkward, mostly because I wasn't sure on what to do yet. I believe that in fast match-ups where we need protection we should be siding out Cabal Rituals, but in fast match-ups where we don't need it (Such as Elves/D&T) we board in the land and tutor instead. I'm still in the process of figuring it all out.

The lack of disruption has me worried versus blue decks but I guess with PiF getting better you shore up some of that.

mainly just worried due to the pretty much strictly blue metagame in my area. infested with bug and tons of CB.

[Royce Walter]

One thing that isn't immediately obvious is that having more mana in the deck means you can afford to Wish for disruption more, which I did notice myself doing more frequently on Saturday.

[akmalik]

Round 1 vs mono black pox
Game1: I also had an infernal tutor and 2 burning wishes in the GY from earlier as well. He ultimates and I'm left with a single LED. Next turn I play LED and flashback Past in Flames -> dark rit x3 -> infernal tutor for LED, sac to make UUU. Ponder, ponder, brainstorm -> find a lotus petal for red, burning wish for tendrils.

It's unlikely that you don't find the red source in 11 cards but with double Wish in grave you can just sac the tutored LED for red and cast both Wish and Tendrils without that gambling (LED, PIF, DR, DR, DR, IT, LED(5b3r in pool), BW, BW, TOA for 20)

[d0nkey]

It's unlikely that you don't find the red source in 11 cards but with double Wish in grave you can just sac the tutored LED for red and cast both Wish and Tendrils without that gambling (LED, PIF, DR, DR, DR, IT, LED(5b3r in pool), BW, BW, TOA for 20)

Good catch, I didn't think about blanking a BW to hit the 10th spell. I really enjoy IT -> LED for UUU to cast cantrips out of past in flames, so I guess I had the tunnel vision goggles on for that one.

[Lemnear]

@ Game against D&T:

That's why hands with a single IMS suck: Thalia, Wasteland and Port take you out so quickly. I'm a bit surprised he maindecked Canonist. Did you know this? I don't think that discussing Therapy vs. Ponder has that much value, but in that situation you have to pick the Thalia and pray that he rather want to work towards the Clique. Thalia is more backbreaking than the Wasteland. This however should not distract from the fact that this hand was just bad against anything other than Miracles. You don't even have a fucking Chance to turn the infernal into value in a reasonable timeframe and FAR to few manasources to combo with Wish BEING ON THE DRAW against D&T.

I would have taken a mulligan here and if the hand wasn't explosive enough either possibly even one to 5 cards. A radical solution if your opponent does NOT KNOW what you are playing, but you can't find a decent starting grip even after 3 tries, is to just scoop the game 1 without playing a single card and profit from your Knowledge advantage in the first postboard game with your opponent being completely clueless, rather than playing out a game 1 which you can't win anyways while helping him with boarding by revealing you are on storm.

[Final Fortune]

If you're that worried about those cards swap out the pair of Duress for the Pyroblasts and side in the Thoughtseize as well. I just haven't been using it as anything other than another Duress, simply no reason to lose life at this point - if the metagame switches back to more hatebears so will we.

I didn't miss Diminishing Returns at all, one thing Royce and I did notice was how much better Past in Flames was.

Don't be so aggressive! I still want Gemstone Mines, we need to be able to support our green cards out of the sideboard. Not to mention, Gemstone Mine does kill itself! In hands where I opened with both, I played Gemstone first and actively tapped it, even on my opponents' end steps for no reason just to get it in the graveyard faster.

If you don't see the versions of Miracles with MD Vendilion Cliques and SB Meddling Mages then Duress is probably better than Thoughtseize vs the meta game, I think it really comes down to the state of Show&Tell and what hate people choose to SB against it because Meddling Mage is "splash hate" vs Storm as far as I'm concerned.

I don't follow, I never suggested cutting Gemstone Mines? I just prefer having more lands over having more rituals, because it lets me mulligan if/when necessary. Either one takes you later into the game, fwiw.

I can't get behind cutting Diminishing Returns, I think you're going to regret it as soon as you run into Jund or Junk, there is no functional equivalent like there is for Ill Gotten Gains.

[Bryant Cook]

If you don't see the versions of Miracles with MD Vendilion Cliques and SB Meddling Mages then Duress is probably better than Thoughtseize vs the meta game, I think it really comes down to the state of Show&Tell and what hate people choose to SB against it because Meddling Mage is "splash hate" vs Storm as far as I'm concerned.

I don't follow, I never suggested cutting Gemstone Mines? I just prefer having more lands over having more rituals, because it lets me mulligan if/when necessary. Either one takes you later into the game, fwiw.

I can't get behind cutting Diminishing Returns, I think you're going to regret it as soon as you run into Jund or Junk, there is no functional equivalent like there is for Ill Gotten Gains.

I may see those decks once an event, where I play against Delver variants 2-3 times an event - the weight isn't evenly distorted.

I misunderstood your suggestion, my issue with that is that more lands means slowing down. That's something I'm not too interested in, if I were, it would mean cutting Chrome Mox.

I'll keep a tally for times I've missed Returns, so far I've gone through an entire event and not wanted it. I didn't hear Royce say he wanted it either, but I could be wrong.

[bryanzoll]

Hey all,

I have decided recently to begin my endeavors as a storm player and made the decision to go with TES. Right now I just feel that it is a stronger option than ANT being faster and has more win cons than 1.

I am putting together the list that was posted by Peter Raab that he won the foil deathrite shamans with. For reference here it is:


Business (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Silence
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Mana Sources (31)
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
1 Tropical Island
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flame
1 Diminishing Returns

I just have a couple of questions about the deck I am hoping some more experienced players can enlighten me with:

1) When would you bring in Tropical Island and what would you sideout for it? (I am assuming you bring it in against taxing decks like delver, DnT, etc., but just want to confirm)

2) When does the hellbent trigger resolve on Infernal Tutor? Just to clarify, here is a specific scenario: If I cast Ad Nauseam, and I get a bunch of cards in my hand (say 10 randoms, 2 LEDs, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 Infernal Tutor). I then play LEDs + Petal, cast infernal tutor (maintaining priority) sacrifice LEDs, pitch my hand due to LED. At this point, does Infernal tutor become demonic tutor?

Thanks,

Bryan

[Asthereal]

1) For a Chrome Mox, usually.
2) It's not a trigger. You either are hellbent, or you are not. If you are, it's a Demonic Tutor. If you are not, it just gets you an additional copy of one of the cards you have in hand. Which actually is pretty useful every now and then. So you cast Infernal, in response to that (KEEP PRIORITY!!!) you sac the LEDs. That makes you hellbent when Infernal resolves. No cards in hand to copy, so you get what you want. It works just like you said.

[Lemnear]

When does the hellbent trigger resolve on Infernal Tutor? Just to clarify, here is a specific scenario: If I cast Ad Nauseam, and I get a bunch of cards in my hand (say 10 randoms, 2 LEDs, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 Infernal Tutor). I then play LEDs + Petal, cast infernal tutor (maintaining priority) sacrifice LEDs, pitch my hand due to LED. At this point, does Infernal tutor become demonic tutor?

Thanks,

Bryan

...except that you need 2 mana to cast Infernal as LEDs can't pay for it. The example given does not properly work


I am putting together the list that was posted by Peter Raab that he won the foil deathrite shamans with.


Heared of that one

[bryanzoll]

...except that you need 2 mana to cast Infernal as LEDs can't pay for it. The example given does not properly work

Understood, I was just trying to create a scenario to clarify what happens with Infernal tutor post casting...so lets assume the magic gods granted me 2 mana that casted the infernal tutor on my behalf.

[Lemnear]

Understood, I was just trying to create a scenario to clarify what happens with Infernal tutor post casting...so lets assume the magic gods granted me 2 mana that casted the infernal tutor on my behalf.

No big deal. Just wanted to clarify. asthereal said most about the interaction.

A minor remark: Don't board out the Mox for the Tropical against Death & Taxes but rather a Ponder as it is a slow card by nature and you want to explode against D&T asap aka needing the Chrome Mox to get mana on the table quickly. Aside from that, the lists isn't really up to date anymore as it is from december

[bryanzoll]

Understood, I was just trying to create a scenario to clarify what happens with Infernal tutor post casting...so lets assume the magic gods granted me 2 mana that casted the infernal tutor on my behalf.

Gotcha, I really liked the fact you mentioned it was for an open field. Do you have any suggestions on what to make for a 75?

[Lemnear]

Gotcha, I really liked the fact you mentioned it was for an open field. Do you have any suggestions on what to make for a 75?

I'm not sure if this question is asked in regards to the specific recent changes, as the current iteration has cut the Silences and the Cities of Brass for more Fetches and Discard which saw a lot of discussion in this thread lately, or if you had something else in mind. There are several directions in discussion atm

A reminder: Bryant has overhauled the OP

[Bryant Cook]

I'm not sure if this question is asked in regards to the specific recent changes, as the current iteration has cut the Silences and the Cities of Brass for more Fetches and Discard which saw a lot of discussion in this thread lately, or if you had something else in mind. There are several directions in discussion atm

A reminder: Bryant has overhauled the OP

Woah, hold up! Spoilers. I have not!

I'm in the process of a complete overhaul on the opening post. Meaning rewriting the entire thing, when it's done I'll let everyone know. I'm juggling a few things at the moment, but expect it in the next few weeks.

My current deck list is in the opening post though!

[Lemnear]

M'kay. Just noticed an edit today

[wonderPreaux]

Hi guys, I just had an idea that I wanted to ask about. I mentioned before being a bit worried over other fast combo decks, and theres a spot for EtW coming out of the main that tends to get filled by Pyroblast or Tropical Island. So, the idea I had: what if we had a 2nd Ad Nauseam in the side to bring in to help race other combo decks. The average CMC of the deck doesn't go up much, since you swap EtW for AdN, being able to combo faster is way better than something conditional like Pyroblast since being faster helps in all combo matchups. Historically the deck did run AdN in duplicate before, so its not unheard of necessarily. 2nd Ad Nauseam might have applications in other matchups too, but it just kinda woke up today with this idea wanted to see if anyone else had thought about it.

[bryanzoll]

Woah, hold up! Spoilers. I have not!

I'm in the process of a complete overhaul on the opening post. Meaning rewriting the entire thing, when it's done I'll let everyone know. I'm juggling a few things at the moment, but expect it in the next few weeks.

My current deck list is in the opening post though!

Bryant,

Do you find having Cabal Rituals / Duress in over silence optimal? And how often are you siding out the Cabal Rits?

[sawatarix]

I play 2 Ad Nauseam in my Ant deck and i would also run 2 in tes instead of empty maybe.
(Currently Empty the Warrens isn't that good in general because of all the cheap answers to goblins in each decks sideboard)

Royce and Bryant: During your path to victory last week,how many rounds have you won with goblins?
How many ad nauseam into grapeshot did you cast?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Pelikanudo]

@Lemnear, Final Fortune and to whom may interest mainly:

I finally played that tournament, it was around 300 people, it was time ago and I was testing a litle with a TES list

I played the folllowing list:
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [THS] Thoughtseize
2 [M14] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [RS] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [MM] Bribery
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre


The idea mainly HowToSide was:

vs Sneak:
-1EtW, -4C.Therapy,+1Ponder = +1Tropical I., +1 T.Seize, +2Xantid, +2Pyro

vs Miracles
-1 C.Mox,-2 Ponder,-1EtW, -2C.Therapy = +2Pyro, +2A.Decay, +1Tropical I., +1 T.Seize

vs T.A
-1Ponder+1T.Seize


I went with a friend playing also Storm but a different archetypes.
We both reached the 4-0 and 4-1 respectively, beating merfolk with Chalice (in here discard was key), slivers, sneak, BUG, etc, all suff with FoW,
We reached both the same D&T player wich crushed us, and last round we faced each other me and my friend - we pacted so we needed to win next 2 rounds, my next 2 rounds were vs miracles - happy - which I'll briefly resume - they were both a feature match ups but still waiting to watch them...

[B][I]vs D&T
it was really a bad luck, on first game I have discard and a 3rd turn win, but the lonely Spirit of the Labyrinth ruined my plan of diminishing as last chance... and either didnt draw other wincon.
The second game he sided 2 E.Tutor plus ratched bomb ,and even I discarded 1 Elightned T. from hand and put 12 gobs on 1st turn he is able to draw the E.Tutor on the f*** next turn.

vs the decks I want to talk now about is miracles:

vs Miracles:
the first and 2nd games were totallly bad plays from opponent part... people still don't know how to play vs TES... and I think will never learn... but I don't want to win games vs them because of this cause.
- the first game we reached a point in which he had Jace, with senseis activates ability and [U]Opponent Does not leave FoW on top. Yeah.
I cast Therapy, chain of spells win.

- the second game and starting him I think I just sided as exposed before , but didnt win.

- the third game was strange as I just felt that full discard instead of A.Decay was going to be better so I sided just +1 EtW, +1 T.Seize from List
I think I discarded FoW and Sensei leaving c.b. and Verdict and put 12 gobs on 2nd turn, he had also blue lands only. I think. won.

I need to elaborate a strong strategy vs miracles, do not mind want to change in side, because this is what I felt on 2nd match up vs miracles...

I'm not sure about the good or bad decisión, but I remember he started and I had a ponder, fetch, duress, D.R. gemstone, B.W., B.S. or like and I opted to play Fetch volcanic to pretend to be RUG - I remembered you in here Lem! he fetched, played island -> c.b., obviously I didnt know he played c.b. maybe if I play duress he just brainstorm, but who knows. I blame myself for not playing duress - but he didn't look a Miracles Player Face.

second I oppted to side in as exposed before - original strategy, but it was simple c.b. landed before comboing and A.D. didn't appear.

I just want to say that the list is damned strong, as it's never been before IMHO - 3 discard and among them 4 therapys is perfect - Go Tri forcé!. just 2 or 1 T.Seize, I opted to play 1 Main and really didn't go bad. but as you all boys say, as quick is what mainly defines the match up vs D&T, my plan was -2 Duress +1T.Seize+1grapeshot. in one game just was bad luck , the other maybe mulligan anyways the problema in one match up was the need of the second threat apart to B.W.-> Massacre which provoked me a secure feeling on each match up. massacre will stay in. so quick was the way and in other Match ups it's the same as duress...,


vs Sneak:
the firt game discard was key to reach agood point in the game and win
the second game Xantid was key.

I didn't use Bribery at all. I think not having CoV opens you to looses maybe vs Leyline bu having also B.W. -> Bribery is also another path to the victory as a card vs Reanimate, S&T, OmniShow, MUD, so I' not sure if to take it out.

So conclusions:

talking with my friend, he played 3 A.Decay finally, he said they're clunky - he played also vs some variety of c.b. but it seems the unique and best post c.b. answer, in testing and in the games, we sometimes drew the pyro after c.b. OR it is seen in resp to a b.s. OR it is the card seen with the ponder starting your opponent beore a c.b. lands... etc. so it seems a neccessary evil you you want to beat consistently Miracles.
I really don't think that 2-2 split vs miracles is a good thing, that was the feeling about full discard and maybe 1 pyro - opinión I somehow agree with F.Fortune.
I think that I will prefer to play 3A.Decay for next time - I think it is usefull when there is also a Senseis landed as you can avoid that scenario. but I'm frightned about how dead is vs counters...
my friend will opt to play 3 pyro.

I would ike to increment +1 to Xantid, maybe -2pyro +1Xantid+1A.Decay, or maybe leaving 1 pyro and take out the bribery...

@Lem, F.Fortune, Royce, Bryant:
Please let me know your opinión about a Strong or the Strongest Side Strategy vs Miracles.


Other things:
I just totally disagree on the opening post list, even the TNT list which is damned strong prefers to play 3b.w. instead of 3I.T. and even if using PiF, then you need I.T. in g.y. or hand unless there is a Like Mystical Tutor Card I will still play 8 Threats as mínimum., which is the purpose of this change, maybe I miss something? do you really think C.Ritual will make TES faster instead of I.T.?, Why not taking out B.W instead? it does seem nonsense to play 3 C.Mox to get full advantage of A.N. and 3 I.T.!!! Also Why not Diminishing Returns???

@Sawatriz, I think you suggested mein the BURG thread, let me give you a suggestion for free: DO NOT play 2nd A.N instead of the Lonely EtW. Now the TriForce is a sacred cow.

[KaiSchafroth]

Bryant,

Do you find having Cabal Rituals / Duress in over silence optimal? And how often are you siding out the Cabal Rits?

Not to speak for others but a number of pages back was when most of the discussion around Discard vs. Silence took place; you likely missed it. Truncating the full text slightly (removing deck lists and some of the text) but you can click the 'go to post' link to read the full posts.

I will add from my own experiences as of late that I am happy with the removal of Silence change for a number of the reasons that were outlined in some of the linked posts below. Setting up for the combo turn, protection against discard, using it more easily intra-combo, land availability and even something as simple as being able to imprint onto a Mox for B have all been bonuses.



I didn't notice the lack of disruption, but I did notice more mana made plowing through soft counters MUCH easier. Sideboarding was a little awkward, mostly because I wasn't sure on what to do yet. I believe that in fast match-ups where we need protection we should be siding out Cabal Rituals, but in fast match-ups where we don't need it (Such as Elves/D&T) we board in the land and tutor instead. I'm still in the process of figuring it all out.



I'll let Bryant post his own list, but I'll post my list and discuss the differences and the reasons.

Silence isn't a bad card, but Silence is a weaker card now that RUG is a dead deck and people are beginning to accept that fact. I said it when True Name Nemesis was spoiled and started playing UBWg and UGW True Name Nemesis decks, and I adjusted my disruption package earlier than any one else did because I was being attacked from multiple angles like; Counters, Discard, Hate Bears and Wasteland instead of from a single angle like Counters and Wasteland or Discard and Wasteland or Hatebears and Wasteland.

I'm not saying Thoughtseize turns Miracles and UBWg into winning match ups, but it improves your win% because you're not blind to any angle of attack like you are with Silence.

I've made a lot of posts regarding the technical benefits of using discard instead of Silence in the past, being able to cast it before the combo turn, being able to cast it off of more lands, being able to cast it off of Dark Ritual, being able to better sequence your lands for cantrips, playing with perfect information, imprinting for black etc. so you can review those posts. Likewise I've made a lot of posts regarding the necessity of Bribery/Telemin's Performance for Griselbrand.dec and it's true now more than ever after you no longer get to face roll Show&Tell with a resolved Silence and Diminishing Returns.

Discard rewards a higher skill cap with TES, but in today's meta game it's worth it.




The switch between Silence to discard was tough for me, I honestly thought Silence was better. I was on a tear with the back to back Caffrey events in PA (Almost 200 players at each) and then played in a 40 man where I went 0-3. Losing because Silence wasn't proactive enough versus bears and discard, I needed to adapt. Final Fortune was right to a certain extent, if the metagame shifts back to the way it was I'll likely sleeve up Silences again. But that time isn't right now. With the lack of Silence, City of Brass isn't needed and the extra fetch and dual were added. Royce & I both agreed that the additional fetchland was immediately noticed, the dual was nice too for pretending to be Sneak & Show. I opted for 2 Seize/1 Duress, Royce played 2 Duress/1 Preordain (Which I hate - but he did better than me this weekend. The fuck do I know, right?). Royce says the lifeloss lost him a game, I think it's negated since we no longer have the lifeloss from City of Brass. Either way, I never noticed the life at all.

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear, Final Fortune and to whom may interest mainly:

I finally played that tournament, it was around 300 people, it was time ago and I was testing a litle with a TES list

I played the folllowing list:
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [U] Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [THS] Thoughtseize
2 [M14] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [RS] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [MM] Bribery
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre


The idea mainly HowToSide was:

vs Sneak:
-1EtW, -4C.Therapy,+1Ponder = +1Tropical I., +1 T.Seize, +2Xantid, +2Pyro

vs Miracles
-1 C.Mox,-2 Ponder,-1EtW, -2C.Therapy = +2Pyro, +2A.Decay, +1Tropical I., +1 T.Seize

vs T.A
-1Ponder+1T.Seize


[B]Don't like the miracle boarding. An infernal should leave without a doubt as Ponders will help you to find pyroblasts and Decays. TA plans are ok even if I prefer having the Tropical over another discard-spell

I went with a friend playing also Storm but a different archetypes.
We both reached the 4-0 and 4-1 respectively, beating merfolk with Chalice (in here discard was key), slivers, sneak, BUG, etc, all suff with FoW,
We reached both the same D&T player wich crushed us, and last round we faced each other me and my friend - we pacted so we needed to win next 2 rounds, my next 2 rounds were vs miracles - happy - which I'll briefly resume - they were both a feature match ups but still waiting to watch them...

vs D&T
it was really a bad luck, on first game I have discard and a 3rd turn win, but the lonely Spirit of the Labyrinth ruined my plan of diminishing as last chance... and either didnt draw other wincon.
The second game he sided 2 E.Tutor plus ratched bomb ,and even I discarded 1 Elightned T. from hand and put 12 gobs on 1st turn he is able to draw the E.Tutor on the f*** next turn.


turn 3 does not cut it in general as they can just topdeck a hatebear after your discard and leave you dead in the water. Why was Dim.Ret your last chance? Was clearing the board with massacre not an option?

vs the decks I want to talk now about is miracles:

vs Miracles:
the first and 2nd games were totallly bad plays from opponent part... people still don't know how to play vs TES... and I think will never learn... but I don't want to win games vs them because of this cause.
- the first game we reached a point in which he had Jace, with senseis activates ability and Opponent Does not leave FoW on top. Yeah.
I cast Therapy, chain of spells win.


Miracles is a deck of strategic planning. Takes time to learn. Beginner's mistake

- the second game and starting him I think I just sided as exposed before , but didnt win.

- the third game was strange as I just felt that full discard instead of A.Decay was going to be better so I sided just +1 EtW, +1 T.Seize from List
I think I discarded FoW and Sensei leaving c.b. and Verdict and put 12 gobs on 2nd turn, he had also blue lands only. I think. won.


I shuddered. You accept being dead if your opponent draws into a Counterbalance, if your hand isn't that good to go off in the first 2 turns through a FoW? I cannot recommend that as a strategy.

I need to elaborate a strong strategy vs miracles, do not mind want to change in side, because this is what I felt on 2nd match up vs miracles...

I'm not sure about the good or bad decisión, but I remember he started and I had a ponder, fetch, duress, D.R. gemstone, B.W., B.S. or like and I opted to play Fetch volcanic to pretend to be RUG - I remembered you in here Lem! he fetched, played island -> c.b., obviously I didnt know he played c.b. maybe if I play duress he just brainstorm, but who knows. I blame myself for not playing duress - but he didn't look a Miracles Player Face.


The flaw in the plan is that Counterbalance is a top-priority-play for miracles against storm AND Delver Tempo (RUG) so there is no point in doing that here unlike against other decks which might want to push their position on the battlefield with Goyf or SFM if they think a RUG player has a slow start with Volcanic into Ponder. I seriously hope you at least pondered after fetching while holding even 2 cantrips.

I don't think it was a general mistake to not play Duress here, depending on his exact start (Flooded strand into Tundra/Island would get me thinking), but the fact that you devalue both your cantrips by blowing your fetch first instead of using the gemstone is more of an issue for me and I doubt the advantage of faking RUG can ever make up for that one. The danger of him just responding to your Duress with a Brainstorm, FoW or Spell Pierce is given, therefore casting the Duress here would not have necessarily saved you (him having topdecked the Counterbalance aside)

second I oppted to side in as exposed before - original strategy, but it was simple c.b. landed before comboing and A.D. didn't appear.


that's why you want to keep your cantrips in here: finding pyroblasts/Decay to battle CB and clique

I just want to say that the list is damned strong, as it's never been before IMHO - 3 discard and among them 4 therapys is perfect - Go Tri forcé!. just 2 or 1 T.Seize, I opted to play 1 Main and really didn't go bad. but as you all boys say, as quick is what mainly defines the match up vs D&T, my plan was -2 Duress +1T.Seize+1grapeshot. in one game just was bad luck , the other maybe mulligan anyways the problema in one match up was the need of the second threat apart to B.W.-> Massacre which provoked me a secure feeling on each match up. massacre will stay in. so quick was the way and in other Match ups it's the same as duress...,


again: in matchups that chocke on your mana you want to bring in the Tropical and remove slow setup-cards like ponder for that

vs Sneak:
the firt game discard was key to reach agood point in the game and win
the second game Xantid was key.

I didn't use Bribery at all. I think not having CoV opens you to looses maybe vs Leyline bu having also B.W. -> Bribery is also another path to the victory as a card vs Reanimate, S&T, OmniShow, MUD, so I' not sure if to take it out.


The SB big blue spells like Telemin or Bribery are speed options like the second Ad Nauseam in the 75. Will talk about that one below

So conclusions:

talking with my friend, he played 3 A.Decay finally, he said they're clunky - he played also vs some variety of c.b. but it seems the unique and best post c.b. answer, in testing and in the games, we sometimes drew the pyro after c.b. OR it is seen in resp to a b.s. OR it is the card seen with the ponder starting your opponent beore a c.b. lands... etc. so it seems a neccessary evil you you want to beat consistently Miracles.
I really don't think that 2-2 split vs miracles is a good thing, that was the feeling about full discard and maybe 1 pyro - opinión I somehow agree with F.Fortune.
I think that I will prefer to play 3A.Decay for next time - I think it is usefull when there is also a Senseis landed as you can avoid that scenario. but I'm frightned about how dead is vs counters...
my friend will opt to play 3 pyro.


I only board Decay for miracles and Chalice.dec. I dislike Decay from the bottom of my heart, but running Pyroblast only bears too much risk for me. Maybe at some point I want to become that greedy ;)

I would ike to increment +1 to Xantid, maybe -2pyro +1Xantid+1A.Decay, or maybe leaving 1 pyro and take out the bribery...


BOM 9 had ~9% Miracles and is a hard matchup. Removing cards which can battle S&T AND Miracles for more specific hate for each matchup doesn't make much sense for me. This way you just loose the quantity of cards to board

@Lem, F.Fortune, Royce, Bryant:
Please let me know your opinión about a Strong or the Strongest Side Strategy vs Miracles.


I guess most was said here and covered in the OP. Maybe more is coming with the OP update

Other things:
I just totally disagree on the opening post list, even the TNT list which is damned strong prefers to play 3b.w. instead of 3I.T. and even if using PiF, then you need I.T. in g.y. or hand unless there is a Like Mystical Tutor Card I will still play 8 Threats as mínimum., which is the purpose of this change, maybe I miss something? do you really think C.Ritual will make TES faster instead of I.T.?, Why not taking out B.W instead? it does seem nonsense to play 3 C.Mox to get full advantage of A.N. and 3 I.T.!!! Also Why not Diminishing Returns???


Dim.Ret. got even worse without Silence but is unique for T1/2 plays. You can however live without that one if the only non-blue matchups you face during a day is a sole round against a Jund/D&T player. The reason for siding the Infernal is that you can Wish for it and run virtual 7 infernals for Ad Nauseam while the increased cost is potentially buffered by the Cabal Rituals.

I personally have a strategic Problem of running Chrome Moxen alongside with Cabal Rituals as those don't work well together. I know Bryant strongly disagrees, but for me it's either Mox OR Cabal Ritual; maybe it's just my impression. Neither can I see the need to boost the mana and life-independant trait of PIF [I]AFTER pure tempo decks left the format.

@Sawatriz, I think you suggested mein the BURG thread, let me give you a suggestion for free: DO NOT play 2nd A.N instead of the Lonely EtW. Now the TriForce is a sacred cow.


I don't like sacred cows. The last time we slaughtered one in form of Silence, the deck made a leap in performance against the metagame. As mentioned before in my response here, the second AN in the 75 is a speed-option, but we talk about about 6 vs. 5 Options for AN here and I doubt that increase is worth a slot. Satawarix (;D) comes from the direction of ANT which has more and better mana and wanted to adress heavy discard decks like TA or Shardless as ANT can easily burst an AN with more lands and Cabal Ritual in the deck even if his hand was shredded before. TES does not have that foundation and so I don't see ths SB AN or replacing the MB EtW with a second AN as an improvement especially as it would remove the option to combo with only 6 mana and spit out Goblins off an Infernal before Counterbalance, Hymn or Thalia affect you, something that ANT wasn't able to do regardless. I hope that also explained my stance towards wonderPreaux's question earlier.

If you Guys want an additional natural drawn bomb in matchups where EtW isn't Hot anyways after boarding, I would think about boarding in a SB engine.


Woooooooo! 3000 posts! Champagne for everyone!

http://www.washingtonlife.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Champagne.jpg

[wonderPreaux]

To clarify, my suggestion of 2nd Ad Nauseam in the side was for combo matchups, not an idea to main it over EtW. Against combo, EtW comes out anyway, and its not like Pyroblast, Bribery, or Surgical Extraction makes for a really effectual one-of against storm/reanimator/mana-dredge. I wasn't advocating for just maining 2 Ad Nauseam in all matchups, there are certainly aggro decks that make ad nauseam less effective and make EtW a lot better etc

[sawatarix]

Ah,finally got it !

Well,i would do that for sure,increasing explosiveness is always good in combo-matchups .


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

To clarify, my suggestion of 2nd Ad Nauseam in the side was for combo matchups, not an idea to main it over EtW. Against combo, EtW comes out anyway, and its not like Pyroblast, Bribery, or Surgical Extraction makes for a really effectual one-of against storm/reanimator/mana-dredge. I wasn't advocating for just maining 2 Ad Nauseam in all matchups, there are certainly aggro decks that make ad nauseam less effective and make EtW a lot better etc

That is not what I said. You suggested second AN in the board, Sawatarix a second in the Main. I adressed both ideas in a single paragaph and pointed out why I don't like cutting the options to fast Goblins in game 1, nor see the significant value of having the second AN in the side for combo matchups if you have Bribery/Telemin in the side and 4 IT + 1 AN in the main and you can remain threat density in case of removing EtW for combo matchups (or other matchups where EtW is lackluster) by siding in a SB engine in it's place

Overall I doubt we need to dedicate SB slots for being even faster

[Thrasher]

Hi guys, got a question about a play i did in a test game versus UWR Miracle. The game state was as follows:
Me.
Tropical tapped.
Volcanic, Sea untapped.
Hand: Cabal Therapy, Wish, Infernal, Petal, LED, Brainstorm.
Top of the library: LED, Petal.

Opponent:
Volcanic,Tundra,Fetch untapped.
Fluster, Brainstorm, Jace as the only relevant cards in hand.

I had an AdN with one mana floating after therapy, but he had flusterstorm. I tapped Usea and played therapy. He used BS, i named Fluster. He ended up drawing Force,Counterbalance,Flusterstorm, put back 2 flusterstorm's and i lost. I'd like some feedback on this play. My reasoning for this is: he has only a brainstorm to find another counter, which couldn't be flusterstorm, or therapy would've hit it. This left only max 7 cards, which seemed fair in a 49 cards deck. Also, if one of those outs was pierce, it wouldn't have stopped me from comboing if he had played it on wish(after brainstorm->petal x2->led x2), although i doubt anyone would've done that.

[Lemnear]

Hi guys, got a question about a play i did in a test game versus UWR Miracle. The game state was as follows:
Me.
Tropical tapped.
Volcanic, Sea untapped.
Hand: Cabal Therapy, Wish, Infernal, Petal, LED, Brainstorm.
Top of the library: LED, Petal.

Opponent:
Volcanic,Tundra,Fetch untapped.
Fluster, Brainstorm, Jace as the only relevant cards in hand.

I had an AdN with one mana floating after therapy, but he had flusterstorm. I tapped Usea and played therapy. He used BS, i named Fluster. He ended up drawing Force,Counterbalance,Flusterstorm, put back 2 flusterstorm's and i lost. I'd like some feedback on this play. My reasoning for this is: he has only a brainstorm to find another counter, which couldn't be flusterstorm, or therapy would've hit it. This left only max 7 cards, which seemed fair in a 49 cards deck. Also, if one of those outs was pierce, it wouldn't have stopped me from comboing if he had played it on wish(after brainstorm->petal x2->led x2), although i doubt anyone would've done that.

In other words you knew he had flusterstorm and you expected him to hide it as a logical response and still named flusterstorm instead of next-level him by naming another counterspell like FoW? You can play around Pierce (if you name FoW and still see him holding Pierce) if you go for EtW AND can immediately flashback Therapy for his Jace or other annoyance he drew off the brainstorm.

I don't see a problem

[Thrasher]

He had a 37,7% chance of drawing a non-flusterstorm playing 7 other counters, 42,1% playing 8 and 33% playing 6. If he had not found one, my only problem would've been the flusterstorm he might have kept, which is why i called it. I could've gone for natural lethal tendrils playing around pierce, too. I guess i relied too much on luck and maths.

Thank you.

[Lemnear]

He had a 37,7% chance of drawing a non-flusterstorm playing 7 other counters, 42,1% playing 8 and 33% playing 6. If he had not found one, my only problem would've been the flusterstorm he might have kept, which is why i called it. I could've gone for natural lethal tendrils playing around pierce, too. I guess i relied too much on luck and maths.

Thank you.

The point is: Why should he expose his Flusterstorm(s) to your Therapy if he knew that you know that he holds it? The best he can do is hiding it and hope you can't combo this turn out with the lonely untapped land in play (as he don't know about your hand). Otherwise we would just lose a card for nothing

[Bryant Cook]

I play 2 Ad Nauseam in my Ant deck and i would also run 2 in tes instead of empty maybe.
(Currently Empty the Warrens isn't that good in general because of all the cheap answers to goblins in each decks sideboard)

Royce and Bryant: During your path to victory last week,how many rounds have you won with goblins?
How many ad nauseam into grapeshot did you cast?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Empty is fine right now, it's much stronger in TES in comparison to ANT. The speed, the additional storm from Chrome Mox as well as the full compliment of Cabal Therapy. It's not ideal against fast combo, but it gets the job done.

I'd have to check my notes, but I win about 40% of my games by attacking and another 40% with Ad Nauseam. With the remaining 20% being natural storm or Past in Flames.

I had a pretty awesome game against Sneak and show where he went two Show and Tell into Grisel tapping a Tomb, fetching and probing. Meaning, when I attempted to win he went to one life after drawing 14 cards, I had barely enough mana to win with Grapeshot through a Daze (His list was a little weird). Felt good.

[Togores]

Usualy whenI know the counter of my opponents hand and he brainstorms in response to Therapy I go for the sencond most posible counter that would get me. If he Outsmart me keeping it in hand I still know the other counter. If he puts on top and I get the other I just win. So whats the problem?

[Machahiko]

In the example game against UWr Miracles why wouldn't the miracles player put back one flusterstorm and jace/counterbalance, that way he/she will have fow+blue card and flusterstorm to use? He could just go and flusterstorm the cabal therapy if he would want to as well and that would leave him with fow + flusterstorm if he decides to keep two flusterstorms and fow?

[Thrasher]

In the example game against UWr Miracles why wouldn't the miracles player put back one flusterstorm and jace/counterbalance, that way he/she will have fow+blue card and flusterstorm to use? He could just go and flusterstorm the cabal therapy if he would want to as well and that would leave him with fow + flusterstorm if he decides to keep two flusterstorms and fow?
It definitely makes sense.


Usualy whenI know the counter of my opponents hand and he brainstorms in response to Therapy I go for the sencond most posible counter that would get me. If he Outsmart me keeping it in hand I still know the other counter. If he puts on top and I get the other I just win. So whats the problem?
That's something i often do, too. The difference here is that i didn't want him to untap, so knowing the other counter wouldn't have been useful. If i had named force and missed due to him keeping flusterstorm, he would have had a counter in hand + a shuffle effect + counterbalance/top/cantrips which he might have seen with brainstorm, which would have let him either lock me or find more counters, while all the protection i had was a wish->seize (using my whole next turn) or brainstorm into petal + 2 unknown cards, one of which had to be either a discard spell or a ponder into a discard spell, if i wanted to have a shot at winning the game.


The point is: Why should he expose his Flusterstorm(s) to your Therapy if he knew that you know that he holds it? The best he can do is hiding it and hope you can't combo this turn out with the lonely untapped land in play (as he don't know about your hand). Otherwise we would just lose a card for nothing
The underlined part. I was thinking as if he knew what i had in my hand.

[Lemnear]

Aside from the mindgames to outsmart your opponent here, I don't see a point in discussion a gamestate in which your opponent has Jace, FoW, Counterbalance and 2 Flusterstorms available with all the mana to cast those

[bryanzoll]

So, after reading quite a bit of material I am still a little hazy as far as sideboard slots go. I know that some people are in favor of using Abrupt Decay as a reactive strategy, and others are in favor of running a little more discard + more Xantid Swarms as a proactive strategy. I was just wondering if this type of decision is going to be player preference or if there is statistically/fundamentally some type of argument for one or the other.

[Lemnear]

So, after reading quite a bit of material I am still a little hazy as far as sideboard slots go. I know that some people are in favor of using Abrupt Decay as a reactive strategy, and others are in favor of running a little more discard + more Xantid Swarms as a proactive strategy. I was just wondering if this type of decision is going to be player preference or if there is statistically/fundamentally some type of argument for one or the other.

Those slots don't even adress the same matchups. It's not a matter of preference but of your expected metagame.

[Pelikanudo]

@Lemnear:

The idea about that strategy vs miracles and I remember also some of your notes:
- the more I.Tutor you have the faster you are and vs c.b. is something you want to have Access to.
- When M.Mage names B.W. and there is no option for destroying it I.T. is the card you need to draw
- The one you mentioned - Once c.b. lands, a 2 card cost can occurs less times.

About D&T match up, on the play I want a ponder over a tropical, I remember among other match ups in which I played vs D&T with silence in which T.I. took its place. I didn't see much the difference, I just need to take 2 useless cards and prefer T.S. and G.S over T.I., which is your priority of preference?, the context of that game was wider aniway... I think he had more beaters in hand plus vial or like... after analyzing was just bad luck. I think the 6 or 7 before D&T player I've won, in one used D.R.!

so you suggest vs Miracles:
-1 C.Mox,-1 Ponder,-1EtW, -2C.Therapy , -1I.T. = +2Pyro, +2A.Decay, +1Tropical I., +1 T.Seize as a strong strategy vs miracles. not sure. anithing better? on the Draw the same tan on the Play, I feel that sometimes not.

I've been thinking in
-1C.Mox,-1EtW-1Ponder,-1C.T. = + 3 pyro,+1T.Seize
or
-1C.Mox,-1EtW-2Ponder = +3A.D.,+1T.Island

and yes, I accepted beeing dead if my opponent draws into a Counterbalance... but is that htere are so many cards I dont want to see... and are mainly Senseis and C.b.... a senseis means he can hide a FoW on top and just loose... so On the play I just prefer to use as much discard and win as quick as posible... so that's what I want to avoid...

The thing is that in a Shell with ANT-3B.W. I really do not mind to play directly 3 A.D. in side as you're late game will be strong... but in here not always A.D. is the card you need or makes you win the game... thats why I maybe prefer even more discard or pyros.

@Final Fortune any suggestion for Strong Side vs Miracles?
Sure yours is +1T.Seize+1Pyro = -1EtW,-1Ponder...


@Bryant and Royce: Any strong good idea vs Miracles tested?

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear:

The idea about that strategy vs miracles and I remember also some of your notes:
- the more I.Tutor you have the faster you are and vs c.b. is something you want to have Access to.
- When M.Mage names B.W. and there is no option for destroying it I.T. is the card you need to draw
- The one you mentioned - Once c.b. lands, a 2 card cost can occurs less times.


If your plan is to race Miracles, the Infernal does it's job. Most matches you start on the draw however become a grindfest in which you don't want to draw dead Infernals which are useless if your opponent locks your mana under the Counterbalance and can ignore his/her inability to counter the Infernal itself. Meddling Mage is the reason you have Decay and Pyroblast in your SB.

About D&T match up, on the play I want a ponder over a tropical, I remember among other match ups in which I played vs D&T with silence in which T.I. took its place. I didn't see much the difference, I just need to take 2 useless cards and prefer T.S. and G.S over T.I., which is your priority of preference?, the context of that game was wider aniway... I think he had more beaters in hand plus vial or like... after analyzing was just bad luck. I think the 6 or 7 before D&T player I've won, in one used D.R.!


I prefer the Tropical if my plan B includes aggressive Mulligans into a hand capable to combo T1/2. I take CoV over TS in that matchup any day of the week thanks to their hatebear density to topdeck. I don't want to waste my T1/2 for the SB TS to strip a Thalia, just to see them topdeck a Wasteland/Canonist/etc.

so you suggest vs Miracles:
-1 C.Mox,-1 Ponder,-1EtW, -2C.Therapy , -1I.T. = +2Pyro, +2A.Decay, +1Tropical I., +1 T.Seize as a strong strategy vs miracles. not sure. anithing better? on the Draw the same tan on the Play, I feel that sometimes not.


You can do that, even if I'd prefer leaving the Seize in the SB and keeping the Ponder. On the play you can T1 Ponder and turn 2 keep red open for a Pyroblast. On the draw your T1 Seize can be answered by Brainstorm, Pierce, Flusterstorm and FoW to still land a CB. At least on the draw I would prepare for the long game

I've been thinking in
-1C.Mox,-1EtW-1Ponder,-1C.T. = + 3 pyro,+1T.Seize
or
-1C.Mox,-1EtW-2Ponder = +3A.D.,+1T.Island


I adressed this already. If you are ballsy, try something along the first one. I don't like 3 AD atm because their use is limited.

and yes, I accepted beeing dead if my opponent draws into a Counterbalance... but is that htere are so many cards I dont want to see... and are mainly Senseis and C.b.... a senseis means he can hide a FoW on top and just loose... so On the play I just prefer to use as much discard and win as quick as posible... so that's what I want to avoid...

The thing is that in a Shell with ANT-3B.W. I really do not mind to play directly 3 A.D. in side as you're late game will be strong... but in here not always A.D. is the card you need or makes you win the game... thats why I maybe prefer even more discard or pyros.


I just refuse to plain lose to a CB making it to the field somehow. That's all. I'm interrested how well discard+ Pyro works overall. Damnit! WotC needs to print an uncounterable Pyroblast which would solve all problems :)

@Final Fortune any suggestion for Strong Side vs Miracles?
Sure yours is +1T.Seize+1Pyro = -1EtW,-1Ponder...


@Bryant and Royce: Any strong good idea vs Miracles tested?

[bryanzoll]

Alright, going to a local weekly tournament of roughly 9-18 players (varies each week).

Here is the deck list I plan on bringing:

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Rite of Flame
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Fetch lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tropical Island
1 Pyroblast
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Bribery (There are going to be 3x 12post players and 1 Show and Tell player...metagame call)
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor

Wish me luck and does anyone have any advice for taking really good game notes without slowing play down? I want to be able to write up my matches and see if you guys can provide advice for some of my misplays.

[Bryant Cook]

I wish I could get away with six Cabal Therapy. You sure are a braver man than I.

[bryanzoll]

I wish I could get away with six Cabal Therapy. You sure are a braver man than I.

Hahaha, sorry about that. I meant 2 Cabal Ritual. I'll try to edit the post

[ThomasDowd]

Wish me luck and does anyone have any advice for taking really good game notes without slowing play down? I want to be able to write up my matches and see if you guys can provide advice for some of my misplays.


2 letter shorthand or just abbreviations is my method.

I find two letters covers most everything

[Togores]

Google glases?

Yeah 2 letters should be enought ^^

I still write led but just cause im used to.

[sawatarix]

I'm also a fan of just 6 discard spells because if you sequence you spells wisely your rituals become "duresses" (your opponent will counter them)

I remember a 7 round tournament 7 weeks ago.
My friend robert (known as cabal therapy" here ) and i played storm and after round 2 he said: "i just crushed both team america and rug delver 2:0 without casting a single discard spell !"

Amazing guy


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Rafael Benedetti]

Hi! I am new here, this is my list I have been playing ( I am from Brazil and I am sorry if my english is not so good), I wouldn't change anything since my lasts champs I did x-0, x-1 with reanimators and sneak and shows. Miracles will always be a very hard match but not impossible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAI4Sy1t5Co


I would like to know what you guys think about this:

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
3 Silence

4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Rite of Flame
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Fetch lands
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 City of brass


Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tropical Island
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 ill-gotten gains

[sawatarix]

You simply cut the best business spell for a land right?
I wouldn't do that for sure.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Rafael Benedetti]

Yeah, I don't like play 12 lands and I always played with infernal in the sideboard, that allows me do ad nauseam with burning wish. Never had a problem with it.

[Lemnear]

Would you let me know what the metagame in your area of brazil looks lik so 5c with Silence can still pull it's weight?

[Rafael Benedetti]

Would you let me know what the metagame in your area of brazil looks lik so 5c with Silence can still pull it's weight?

Sure, reanimator, sneak and show, D&T, Jund, sometimes goblins but what I most see here is the esper decks or uwr decks with TNN. I really like silence, against leyline and you can avoid the counter on the top with sensei's divining top.

[Bryant Cook]

I started the overhaul on the opening post yesterday. Looking forward to writing a lot more today!

[wonderPreaux]

Lately I've been running into an issue against decks just aggressively Wastelanding me out of games. Against Delver decks it's harsh trying to deal with a fast clock, especially with Daze, and against BUG/Blade decks they can use DRS as an allowance to Wasteland me while retaining the ability to play discard spells and keep Planeswalkers within reach. Looking back through the thread, I've seen suggestion of playing a 13th land mainboard, or siding cards like Carpet of Flowers, but neither idea seems to prevail in the thread as worthwhile. Another worry is that a slow hand of multiple lands, or even mulling into a hand with multiple lands leaves me vulnerable to take more damage from the faster decks, and eat more discard from the control decks.

Is this just one of those things of sometimes they have Delver -> Waste+Daze/DRS -> Waste+Hymn and I just have to accept those losses or is there some tech card i can make if I expect a meta like that? Carpet seems to be the closest answer, but even then it can be played around. I ask because a lot of MTGO dailies have involved me getting Waste'd out pretty badly by BUG/RUG stuff, and any particular build of hate or engines just gets rendered irrelevant because I can't play any of my cards whatsoever.

[BrettF]

@WonderPreaux

I would say fundamentally if you are getting wasted/discarded out of games it is because you are playing around countermagic a bit too much with your potential turn 1/2 combo. Be daring! Theres times to be cautious and times to raise hell. "picking your spot" is definitely one of the hardest aspects of the deck. Once you start losing your games to countermagic you can go back to exposing yourself to wasteland and you'll find your spot eventually.

[Jaycounet]

Went to tournament last saturday and finish 3-2 with the new list (love it sincerely)
win against bug - 12 post - and tezzeret deck

loose againt miracle with hawfull hand allways draw counter if counterbalance was not in place and after a decay to start a counterspell again it was like this during 2 games just awfull match couldnt do anything

loose the last one show and tell deck first one i wasn't quick enough
second one add in 2 xantid + 2 pyroblast put xantid firs turn ok took wipeaway put back xantid for fow ... manage to get 11 mana in my pool to many storm to cast adnauseam for force of will enough to cast tutor for tendril but took spellpierce ... i would have prefer to get one duress instead of mana or silence

but i was really happy with this deck after long time without playing magic.

i feel the deck is quicker than before (if it was posible) but maybe a bit less protected again blue anyway take pleasure to play with it

[Lemnear]

Lately I've been running into an issue against decks just aggressively Wastelanding me out of games. Against Delver decks it's harsh trying to deal with a fast clock, especially with Daze, and against BUG/Blade decks they can use DRS as an allowance to Wasteland me while retaining the ability to play discard spells and keep Planeswalkers within reach. Looking back through the thread, I've seen suggestion of playing a 13th land mainboard, or siding cards like Carpet of Flowers, but neither idea seems to prevail in the thread as worthwhile. Another worry is that a slow hand of multiple lands, or even mulling into a hand with multiple lands leaves me vulnerable to take more damage from the faster decks, and eat more discard from the control decks.

Is this just one of those things of sometimes they have Delver -> Waste+Daze/DRS -> Waste+Hymn and I just have to accept those losses or is there some tech card i can make if I expect a meta like that? Carpet seems to be the closest answer, but even then it can be played around. I ask because a lot of MTGO dailies have involved me getting Waste'd out pretty badly by BUG/RUG stuff, and any particular build of hate or engines just gets rendered irrelevant because I can't play any of my cards whatsoever.

Let me mention first that the switch to more fetches and reduced color requirement for a protected combo turn adressed this issue already, which was the reason for trying out cards like Carpet or the 13th MB land. As your question contains a number of factors and decks, we need to split them up.

Fast Damage with Wasteland:
The only 2 viable ways to kill opponents that ride Delver on the back of Wasteland is either dropping goblins so you can ignore your previous lifeloss or setup a natural spellchain (playing 8 vs. 7 cards) as you have quite some turns to dig for lands. Depending on your starting grip you choose to work into one of the mentioned directions. You can sit in your fetchlands and just expose Rainbows to their wastelands for cantripping/Wish for discard and drawing out counters

Waste + DRS + Hymn:
Turn 1 U.Sea plus DRS telegraphs such a blowout and Probe can reveal it in time. Depending on being on the draw or play you have 1-2 turns to either drop goblins/fire off AN to be faster than Wasteland + Hymn (pretty much the same gameplan like against D&T) or dropping all your mana and playing the deck off the top after you boarded in your 13th land to do so. TES can win against wasteland/Hymn.dec with an empty hand too.

You don't need more than the already available 13th land in the SB against those decks if you adapt your playstyle to your opponents decks. Getting constantly blown out by wasteland plus either fast damage or discard sounds like keeping business/cantrip-heavy hands with fragile mana to plow through several counters which aren't even there. Goblins, natural chain (damage + wasteland) and playing off the top (wasteland + hymn) are your bread and butter in these 2 matchups. Planning your game around Ad Nauseam in these matchups will fail.


i was really happy with this deck after long time without playing magic.

i feel the deck is quicker than before (if it was posible) but maybe a bit less protected again blue anyway take pleasure to play with it

It was quite some time I did not saw you around here. Welcome home :)

The deck indeed got faster by now no longer needing white mana for Silence but a total of 2 IMS' only for a protected combo turn as blanking Envelop or Stifle was no longer required in the current metagame, which offered new Problems in form of multiple axis of hate