[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Bryant Cook]

if youll forgive my lack of experience, could i ask where cabal ritual is really good? if you dont want it for UW control, tempo, prison, hatebear, or combo matches, im wondering where it really shines. Cabal Rit could be good for a midrange discard deck like jund or shardless, but i dont think those are particularly challenging matchups to begin with. Or is it generally about having more rituals g1 being worth the slightly worse Ad Nauseams and its not really matchup specific?

It's fine against Esperblade/Stoneblade, RUG Delver, BUG Delver, Shardless, Storm Mirrors, Death & Taxes (You now have 3 Moxes and Ponder to side out) and some others. Against Miracles I would leave it in if we didn't have so many cards to bring in, the problem is we have to take something out. It's really going to come down to whatever is in that slot.

We want a well rounded deck in game one, then just minor changes for higher chances of winning post-board.


This is starting to look more and more like the TNT decks of a couple years ago. List for reference:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11184-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)&p=600764&viewfull=1#post600764

Obviously don't have the Gitaxian Probes (can't remember if the card was out back then), prefering a more fetchable manabase over the rainbow lands and having PiF/Tendrils instead of AdNauseam/Empty as the main plan.

Yeah dude, metagames change. Back then Spell Snare and Stifle were the nuts, it was right to play Silence then.

[seilaquem]

Question about the manabase in light of the recent changes; why Gemstone Mines over a couple basics and more duals?

well, it's written on the primer, but I'll state this again:

the general goal of the deck is to resolve a empty the warrens, making the deck much faster than ANT and DDFT. (with consistency, unlike belcher and SI)

so, there are times you need to cast a spell for black, and combo through w/ red mana. also, being able to cantrip is essencial to the deck.

so give up the "playing around wasteland" with sheer raw power.

[Higgs]

Yea I read the primer, but after taking a look at the 3 color old TNT lists which played a fetchable manabase and goldfished around T2 I thought it was still a valid point to bring up.

[seilaquem]

Yea I read the primer, but after taking a look at the 3 color old TNT lists which played a fetchable manabase and goldfished around T2 I thought it was still a valid point to bring up.

well, I don't mean to be rude, but it's all about personal choice. if you feel like you should give it a try, you can and then give a feedback.

it's what a forum is all about: exchanging ideas and experiences to improve the deck. Besides, you don't have to play the exact 75 everyone here does.

I , for example, am playing the following:

4 gemstone mine
4 blue fecthes
2 Underground sea
2 volcanic island
1 tropical
4 BS
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 rite of flames
4 dark ritual
1 cabal ritual
4 LEDs
3 chrome M
4 lotus petal

4 cabal therapy
2 thoughseizes
4 burning wish
3 infernal tutor
1 ad nauseam
1 empty the warrens

SB
1 empty
1 tendrils
1 past in flames
1 massacre
1 infernal tutor
1 thoughtseize
1 grapeshot
2 surgical extraction (love this card)
2 chain of vapors
2 abrupt decays
2 xantid swarm

I play this 'cause of my meta (2 reanimators, no miracles , merfolk and omnitel playing chalice of the void, and a lot of pox and d&t). i still have no idea how to beat miracles, but this 75 has been really great for me.

so you gotta do, what u think you gotta do(playing 8 fetches w/ basics). think of here more of guidelines, instead of a rulebook =) (though this guidelines have been though a lot of testing...)

[Asthereal]

Right, I hadn't joined in with the discussion around adding Cabal Rituals, simply because I felt I couldn't support it but I didn't have time to disprove it, so I let it go for a while. But I do feel compelled to make a contribution, just to make sure another view is presented, so here it is. So the changes include:

+2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Infernal Tutor (moving it to the sideboard)
-1 ? (Mox, Discard, Ponder - whichever we feel isn't needed as much)

The reason for this change was that apparently some here wanted to improve the Past in Flames kill. Additionally, Cabal Ritual has benefits when trying to play around taxing counters. The cons include less likely fast Ad Nauseam kills (one less Infernal Tutor - we can now Wish for it, but that requires 7 mana instead of 5 after the tutor), and marginally worse Ad Nauseam when cast (one Cabal Ritual takes the place of a cheaper card). So all in all we improve the Past in Flames kill, at the cost of the Ad Nauseam kill.

My first question: Why would we want to do that? Both kills have their merits, but the nature of TES is that we want to go off as fast as we can. Past in Flames is our weapon of choice when we suddenly find ourselves in a situation where we have time to prepare for it, but our main engines are the ultra-fast Empty the Warrens and Ad Nauseam. Yes, Empty the Warrens has become worse with Golgari Charm and the likes geing very prevalent in the meta, but we also run the full package of discard, which can help us protect the army of Goblins. And I don't think we should worsen our Ad Nauseam kill if we feel that Empty the Warrens is the problem.

Another argument against Cabal Ritual: it doesn't work very well for us. Yes, we did add some fetch lands, so we should be able to reach Threshold with more ease than before, but still we run a lot less fetch lands than ANT. On the other side we also have a meta full of Deathrite Shamans shrinking our grave. Granted, they don't do a lot of that on turn one, but then again we made our turn one kill worse, so the Deathrites will become a factor more often than in the old list. This brings me to my second question: can we not do better than Ad Nauseam? I'll try to answer this question after my conclusions.

My conclusions:
1. I vote against worsening our Ad Nauseam kill. I want all four Infernals main deck, so I have a bigger chance of finding one. So I will just drop the plan for improving my Past in Flames kill.
2. Cabal Ritual seems suboptimal in TES. We should look for a better card to improve our game against taxing counters.

Let me drop a few cards on you guys that can help us against taxing counters:

A. (sideboard) Carpet of Flowers
Pro's:
- Helps us cast all our spells, so always useful
- High power level
Con's:
- Opponent has influence over its functionality
- Off colour
- Takes up a lot of sideboard space
- Bad after an Ad Nauseam

B. (main deck) Additional lands (I have used this tactic for a while, running 13 lands instead of 12)
Pro's:
- Less no-land mulligans
- More fetches improve our cantrips
Con's:
- Wasteable
- Doesn't add to storm count
- Minimal effect on taxing counters (opponent can do the math)

C. (main deck) Simian Spirit Guide!!
Pro's:
- Can catch an opponent by surprise
- Initial mana is never bad
- Improves the speed of the deck
Con's:
- High CMC makes Ad Nauseam worse, though the initial mana can also help after Ad Nauseam
- Doesn't add to storm count

If we want to improve our game against taxing counters, I suggest we try this change:
+2 Simian Spirit Guide
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 ? (Ponder, Discard, Wish - whatever you feel you can do without. I vote to cut one Ponder. This will also be my first test setup.)

NOTE: The above is all my personal opinions on this matter. I don't want to insult anyone who suggested, or believed in, the +2 Cabal Ritual, -1 Infernal Tutor change. I just disagree with that change, and wanted to explain why, and offer an alternative.

[seilaquem]

Right, I hadn't joined in with the discussion around adding Cabal Rituals, simply because I felt I couldn't support it but I didn't have time to disprove it, so I let it go for a while. But I do feel compelled to make a contribution, just to make sure another view is presented, so here it is. So the changes include:

+2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Infernal Tutor (moving it to the sideboard)
-1 ? (Mox, Discard, Ponder - whichever we feel isn't needed as much)

The reason for this change was that apparently some here wanted to improve the Past in Flames kill. Additionally, Cabal Ritual has benefits when trying to play around taxing counters. The cons include less likely fast Ad Nauseam kills (one less Infernal Tutor - we can now Wish for it, but that requires 7 mana instead of 5 after the tutor), and marginally worse Ad Nauseam when cast (one Cabal Ritual takes the place of a cheaper card). So all in all we improve the Past in Flames kill, at the cost of the Ad Nauseam kill.

My first question: Why would we want to do that? Both kills have their merits, but the nature of TES is that we want to go off as fast as we can. Past in Flames is our weapon of choice when we suddenly find ourselves in a situation where we have time to prepare for it, but our main engines are the ultra-fast Empty the Warrens and Ad Nauseam. Yes, Empty the Warrens has become worse with Golgari Charm and the likes geing very prevalent in the meta, but we also run the full package of discard, which can help us protect the army of Goblins. And I don't think we should worsen our Ad Nauseam kill if we feel that Empty the Warrens is the problem.

Another argument against Cabal Ritual: it doesn't work very well for us. Yes, we did add some fetch lands, so we should be able to reach Threshold with more ease than before, but still we run a lot less fetch lands than ANT. On the other side we also have a meta full of Deathrite Shamans shrinking our grave. Granted, they don't do a lot of that on turn one, but then again we made our turn one kill worse, so the Deathrites will become a factor more often than in the old list. This brings me to my second question: can we not do better than Ad Nauseam? I'll try to answer this question after my conclusions.

My conclusions:
1. I vote against worsening our Ad Nauseam kill. I want all four Infernals main deck, so I have a bigger chance of finding one. So I will just drop the plan for improving my Past in Flames kill.
2. Cabal Ritual seems suboptimal in TES. We should look for a better card to improve our game against taxing counters.

Let me drop a few cards on you guys that can help us against taxing counters:

A. (sideboard) Carpet of Flowers
Pro's:
- Helps us cast all our spells, so always useful
- High power level
Con's:
- Opponent has influence over its functionality
- Off colour
- Takes up a lot of sideboard space
- Bad after an Ad Nauseam

B. (main deck) Additional lands (I have used this tactic for a while, running 13 lands instead of 12)
Pro's:
- Less no-land mulligans
- More fetches improve our cantrips
Con's:
- Wasteable
- Doesn't add to storm count
- Minimal effect on taxing counters (opponent can do the math)

C. (main deck) Simian Spirit Guide!!
Pro's:
- Can catch an opponent by surprise
- Initial mana is never bad
- Improves the speed of the deck
Con's:
- High CMC makes Ad Nauseam worse, though the initial mana can also help after Ad Nauseam
- Doesn't add to storm count

If we want to improve our game against taxing counters, I suggest we try this change:
+2 Simian Spirit Guide
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 ? (Ponder, Discard, Wish - whatever you feel you can do without. I vote to cut one Ponder. This will also be my first test setup.)

NOTE: The above is all my personal opinions on this matter. I don't want to insult anyone who suggested, or believed in, the +2 Cabal Ritual, -1 Infernal Tutor change. I just disagree with that change, and wanted to explain why, and offer an alternative.

I c your point, but the main reason I loved the cabal ritual plan is the come back ad nauseam it enables. In several grindy matches i played, i was only made possible to return to the game via 2 mana, cabal ritual ad nauseam w/ no other cards in hand. So I would say, in that sense, cabal ritual improved my Ad nauseam kills, although it worsens the AN in the argument you just did.

I liked you first and secont plans against taxing counters, but the third one (spirit guide plan) isn't worth it, since it doesn't help the speed all that much... I mean, it doesn't fill the graveyard, doesn't help the past in flames, makes us vulnerable to stifle.. i think it's a bad tradeoff... (but the pro's are really there. one more mana can make all the difference...)

[Asthereal]

4c list playing basics and duals don't make sense to you, take a look at ANT. Look at the argument you're bringing up. It's only being fussy, nothing more. Sure I'll ignore you, you haven't brought anything to the table aside from you ego for all I care.
You are VERY incorrect:

TES needs both Red and Black initial mana to go off, but also Blue for cantrips and Green for sideboard Decay and Swarm. While playing less lands than ANT. ANT only needs Black as initial mana to go off. It can use LED to make red for Past in Flames, so for ANT the Blue and Black mana are most critical. Red initial mana is very rarely needed for ANT. So TES has more colour requirements to meet with only 12 lands. That's nearly impossible with only fetch and duals, let alone basics.

Lem has been explaining this four times now. And if you don't believe us, make a 12 land mana base for TES with four colours, duals, basics and fetch lands, and play a couple of goldfish games. You will disprove your own point within 15 minutes, I guarantee it.


I c your point, but the main reason I loved the cabal ritual plan is the come back ad nauseam it enables. In several grindy matches i played, i was only made possible to return to the game via 2 mana, cabal ritual ad nauseam w/ no other cards in hand. So I would say, in that sense, cabal ritual improved my Ad nauseam kills, although it worsens the AN in the argument you just did.

I liked you first and second plans against taxing counters, but the third one (spirit guide plan) isn't worth it, since it doesn't help the speed all that much... I mean, it doesn't fill the graveyard, doesn't help the past in flames, makes us vulnerable to stifle.. i think it's a bad tradeoff... (but the pro's are really there. one more mana can make all the difference...)
The list with 2x Simian Spirit Guide doesn't need to fill up the yard, and it very rarely uses Past in Flames. If it does use Past in Flames, the card is no worse than it was when we just played 3x Chrome Mox. By the way, the list is way faster because it carries more initial mana and an additional tutor that you can use to blast out EtW or AdN turn 1-2.

I really don't feel we need to improve the Past in Flames kill. We can easily win without even using it. We didn't need it before it was printed, and what new cards were printed that made us need it now? Delver of Secrets? Deathrite Shaman? Not those. Maybe Terminus and the prevalence of -1/-1 sweepers make Empty the Warrens worse, but I really don't think this should force us to switch to a weird ANTish list. It makes more sense to me to actually choose between the two, taking into account the way the meta develops.

[Lemnear]

4c list playing basics and duals don't make sense to you, take a look at ANT. Look at the argument you're bringing up. It's only being fussy, nothing more. Sure I'll ignore you, you haven't brought anything to the table aside from you ego for all I care.

As I wrote before: ANT need the Fetches for thres.hold, runs more lands overall and doesn't necessarily opt to combo T1/2. there is a lot of difference if your gameplan involves to drop 3-4 lands for a 4c manabase or if you want to cast spells of all 4 colors off only 1-2 lands. Having Ad Nauseam as your main engine compared with ANT/TNT's PIF also indicates that you can't afford to eat damage by opposing creatures just to develop your land-manabase.

[Bryant Cook]

Cabal Ritual's real strength is that it allows for more Ad Nauseams with mana floating as well as creating enough mana to utilize Burning Wish as a way to find Ad Nauseam. With more mana floating we need less Chrome Mox.

[Bloodcookie]

...the nature of TES is that we want to go off as fast as we can. Past in Flames is our weapon of choice when we suddenly find ourselves in a situation where we have time to prepare for it, but our main engines are the ultra-fast Empty the Warrens and Ad Nauseam.
...
Another argument against Cabal Ritual: it doesn't work very well for us. Yes, we did add some fetch lands, so we should be able to reach Threshold with more ease than before, but still we run a lot less fetch lands than ANT. On the other side we also have a meta full of Deathrite Shamans shrinking our grave.

These were precisely the arguments against Cabal Ritual I had in mind several pages ago; I appreciate your more thorough explication here.

As I stated before, my own solution has been +1 fetch land (for consistency, both in mana and Brainstorms), +1 Chrome Mox (additional stability, turning otherwise dead cards into mana and free storm-count).

[Lemnear]

I c your point, but the main reason I loved the cabal ritual plan is the come back ad nauseam it enables. In several grindy matches i played, i was only made possible to return to the game via 2 mana, cabal ritual ad nauseam w/ no other cards in hand. So I would say, in that sense, cabal ritual improved my Ad nauseam kills, although it worsens the AN in the argument you just did.

You could just drop you increased number of lands and cast AN off those as well while playing off the top in grindy matchups. CR is iffy with Chrome Moxen and Rainbow Lands and the deck is mana flooded often enough. I feel that more IMS not only improve mulligans and grindy matches but also adress the whole Daze/Wasteland issue the deck has since ages.


You are VERY incorrect:

TES needs both Red and Black initial mana to go off, but also Blue for cantrips and Green for sideboard Decay and Swarm. While playing less lands than ANT. ANT only needs Black as initial mana to go off. It can use LED to make red for Past in Flames, so for ANT the Blue and Black mana are most critical. Red initial mana is very rarely needed for ANT. So TES has more colour requirements to meet with only 12 lands. That's nearly impossible with only fetch and duals, let alone basics.

Lem has been explaining this four times now. And if you don't believe us, make a 12 land mana base for TES with four colours, duals, basics and fetch lands, and play a couple of goldfish games. You will disprove your own point within 15 minutes, I guarantee it.

Thanks for summing it up ... once more ;)

I did not count how many times the topic occured (and I have commented on it) since the shift to all-discard, but I remember that I adressed the point of Gemstones in this very thread one or two times right after the shift away from Silence and the topic pops up every few pages.

[Bryant Cook]

I really don't feel we need to improve the Past in Flames kill. We can easily win without even using it. We didn't need it before it was printed, and what new cards were printed that made us need it now? Delver of Secrets? Deathrite Shaman? Not those. Maybe Terminus and the prevalence of -1/-1 sweepers make Empty the Warrens worse, but I really don't think this should force us to switch to a weird ANTish list. It makes more sense to me to actually choose between the two, taking into account the way the meta develops.

This is incredibly narrow thinking. Why do we need guns? We have bow and arrows!

It's about maximizing our chances of winning. Past in Flames is our tertiary kill, not our first, not even our second. Cabal Ritual is in there for other reasons as well.

[Asthereal]

It's about maximizing our chances of winning. Past in Flames is our tertiary kill, not our first, not even our second. Cabal Ritual is in there for other reasons as well.
Please name all your reasons then. Improving our third engine at the cost of our first doesn't even look like narrow thinking. It looks plain wrong. I have been following your innovations with great interest, and seldomly did I disagree with your decisions, so please, make me a believer.

[wonderPreaux]

Please name all your reasons then. Improving our third engine at the cost of our first doesn't even look like narrow thinking. It looks plain wrong. I have been following your innovations with great interest, and seldomly did I disagree with your decisions, so please, make me a believer.

I'll take a stab at converting you:

Cabal Ritual can give you enough mana to go Wish -> Tutor -> Nauseam all in one go, so we can effectively enjoy more copies of Ad Nauseam, sounds like an improvement. 1 fewer Chrome Mox does make the flips off Ad Nauseam worse, but then you can get enough front-end mana off Cabal Rit that you don't need as many IMS (read: Chrome Mox) post Ad Nauseam.

By running two copies each of Chrome Mox and Cabal Rit, we have 20 mana rituals/rocks for impressive explosiveness, exceptional Ad Nauseams compared to ANT due to the sheer amount of mana we can get before or after, and we can double on Cabal Rit with spare Tutors (you can double Chrome Moxen too, I guess). While a t1 or t2 Ad Nauseam is understandably worse, the improvement to midgame Ad Nauseams keeps our primary win condition strong while making Past in Flames more robust by decreasing the nonbo density of artifact mana in out PiF lines.

I will be testing this configuration on my stream, either tonight or next week, if anyone wants to see how this builds works out on MTGO.

[davelin]

Please name all your reasons then. Improving our third engine at the cost of our first doesn't even look like narrow thinking. It looks plain wrong. I have been following your innovations with great interest, and seldomly did I disagree with your decisions, so please, make me a believer.

Bryant did list these earlier, namely more mana floating post-AdNaus and making Wish able to get AdNaus via the SBed IT.

[Lemnear]

Bryant did list these earlier, namely more mana floating post-AdNaus and making Wish able to get AdNaus via the SBed IT.

There are still 3 issues you have to have in mind:

1) you have to generate at least 9 mana to Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam which is an insane amount of mana to generate off 6 cards in your hand (the 7th being Wish) or

2) you have to waste a whole turn to Wish for infernal and pass the turn to have the 7-mana-combo option

3) you have to gain thres.hold first so you can generate enough mana to chain wish into infernal into Ad Nauseam or float mana into the 5cc instant. Achieving this with less fetches and cantrips isn't easy and takes time; time your opponent might uses to deal damage which leaves you with PIF instead of AN, a route you can also pick if you double your RoF's/DR's with 4 infernals maindeck.

[davelin]

There are still 3 issues you have to have in mind:

1) you have to generate at least 9 mana to Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam which is an insane amount of mana to generate off 6 cards in your hand (the 7th being Wish) or

2) you have to waste a whole turn to Wish for infernal and pass the turn to have the 7-mana-combo option

3) you have to gain thres.hold first so you can generate enough mana to chain wish into infernal into Ad Nauseam or float mana into the 5cc instant. Achieving this with less fetches and cantrips isn't easy and takes time; time your opponent might uses to deal damage which leaves you with PIF instead of AN, a route you can also pick if you double your RoF's/DR's with 4 infernals maindeck.

I don't disagree and why I'm not 100% behind the CRit plan, I was just reiterating how CRit still augments the main plan. I do like the idea of having IT in the SB for the longer games against Blue, that's a change I'll probably adopt and test out more regardless of how CRit works out.

[Lemnear]

I don't disagree and why I'm not 100% behind the CRit plan, I was just reiterating how CRit still augments the main plan. I do like the idea of having IT in the SB for the longer games against Blue, that's a change I'll probably adopt and test out more regardless of how CRit works out.

For the longer games against blue, you usually sided out an Infernal regardless for more hate. The question is if you really want less Infernals for game 1's.

[Bryant Cook]

There are still 3 issues you have to have in mind:

1) you have to generate at least 9 mana to Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam which is an insane amount of mana to generate off 6 cards in your hand (the 7th being Wish) or

2) you have to waste a whole turn to Wish for infernal and pass the turn to have the 7-mana-combo option

3) you have to gain thres.hold first so you can generate enough mana to chain wish into infernal into Ad Nauseam or float mana into the 5cc instant. Achieving this with less fetches and cantrips isn't easy and takes time; time your opponent might uses to deal damage which leaves you with PIF instead of AN, a route you can also pick if you double your RoF's/DR's with 4 infernals maindeck.

In a deck with ten ritual effects as well as ten mana rocks generating nine mana isn't as difficult as it would seem. I do it all the time. In practice, it hasn't been an issue at all. Not to mention having the Infernal in the sideboard makes a pair of Lion's Eye Diamonds and a Wish even better as it's an additional storm before the Goblins come down.

Generating Threshold has yet to be something difficult to do especially if you're planning your turns ahead, if you open with a Gemstone Mine and a Cabal Ritual plan on removing that last counter on turn three.

Asthereal - I've stated my thoughts through the last five pages of this thread repeatedly – hell, most of it is probably on this page. I shouldn't need to make a list for you.

[Marcelo65]

In a deck with ten ritual effects as well as ten mana rocks generating nine mana isn't as difficult as it would seem. I do it all the time. In practice, it hasn't been an issue at all. Not to mention having the Infernal in the sideboard makes a pair of Lion's Eye Diamonds and a Wish even better as it's an additional storm before the Goblins come down.

Generating Threshold has yet to be something difficult to do especially if you're planning your turns ahead, if you open with a Gemstone Mine and a Cabal Ritual plan on removing that last counter on turn three.

Asthereal - I've stated my thoughts through the last five pages of this thread repeatedly – hell, most of it is probably on this page. I shouldn't need to make a list for you.

Byant, have you thought about inlcuding a Rhystic Tutor to the main? Totor into Ad Nauseam from the side sounds promising.

[Asthereal]

Generating Threshold has yet to be something difficult to do especially if you're planning your turns ahead, if you open with a Gemstone Mine and a Cabal Ritual plan on removing that last counter on turn three.
Bryant, I respect you and all the work you have put into this deck. It is your design and you have been rocking it for years on end, but I must drop this one on you: if you rock TES and want to plan three turns ahead, you are rocking the wrong deck. This deck runs 12 lands, none of which basic, in a meta where the most played card is Wasteland. The second most popular deck actually runs that, plus hand disruption and counterspells. Hatebear.dec is a contender in the meta for quite some time now, rocking a combination of hate bears and mana denial. If you want to plan three turns ahead, and more over, if you want to rock the very powerful card Cabal Ritual and make it work for the best, you need to switch to ANT. ANT has a mana base that supports three turn plans, and that whole deck combines better with Cabal Ritual. Heck, if you want to plan three turns ahead and have the best chance at winning through whatever hate has slipped your net, you should be rocking Doomsday.

I know you have been putting up decent results with this new setup lately, but we should not forget that your play skill and deep knowledge of the mechanics of this deck will compensate immensely for a suboptimal deck list. Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you want to play Storm more cautiously, more conservatively, more consistently, and with the higher power level of the Cabal Rituals and the improved Past in Flames kill, you must see you are turning away from the "No guts, no glory" superfast combo list you once designed.

[Pelikanudo]

In a deck with ten ritual effects as well as ten mana rocks generating nine mana isn't as difficult as it would seem. I do it all the time. In practice, it hasn't been an issue at all. Not to mention having the Infernal in the sideboard makes a pair of Lion's Eye Diamonds and a Wish even better as it's an additional storm before the Goblins come down.

Generating Threshold has yet to be something difficult to do especially if you're planning your turns ahead, if you open with a Gemstone Mine and a Cabal Ritual plan on removing that last counter on turn three.

Asthereal - I've stated my thoughts through the last five pages of this thread repeatedly – hell, most of it is probably on this page. I shouldn't need to make a list for you.

First of all I have to say that I strongly disagree on playing less than 4 I.T, I 100% agree with Asthereal ,F.Fortune ,Bahamut and Lem,
you'd better play Griselbrand Engine then....
I believe that the strength of and ANT deck is the amount of mana you invest to cast A.N. - 7 mana is just the nuts!, by doing B.W.->I.T. in the same turn you're using an engine which needs 9 mana, so this is not mana efficient and neither fast. a TES player just dont need this, even the Timo Shuneman list play 4 I.T and 3 B.Wish... try to include a Grim Tutor in side man then!
What we want to focus is to get the I.T. plus LED plus D.R. and a couple of lands, by doing this we are generating a card advantage which is not comparable to other decks in legacy

For example the Doomsday piles which are the less mana efficient are the ones that makes the deck so good, you just need for some piles to work just 1 blue mana and 3 black and a cantrip, this is the strength of the deck. and extrapolating this to TES is the same concept...

I just don't want to convice anyone, but having less than 4 I.T in and A.N deck is just an error and it is even worse in the deck which gets the most of A.N. card... you just take out for the 1st games a card which defines the deck.

Related to the argument to increase the strength of Pif Engine is just false... For PiF to work you need another Business spell, taking out 1 Business spell you just get worse PiF engine...

I wont go back to this discussion again but I wanted to expose my opinion related. Sure each has its own opinion, but by here there are phisicians, mathstematicals and programmers, which should agree on these main concepts

Also abut 3 C.Moxen... well prefer to not to expose my opinion... you seems to play more and more the Timo Shuneman List... it seems that his ideas were much more advanced, now I try to prepare a tournament and now we play full discard I could handle more decks and maybe win and maybe state my deck as The TES deck - sure it will contain 3 C.Mox and 4 I.Tutor main....

at least the slot about 1 C.Rit makes sense to take out 1 C.Mox...

just a opinion, I'm hippie

[Jay_Gatz]

I feel like some people don't understand that this deck is adapting the the meta. Bryant's list did remain almost the same for quite a while but the format isn't the same as it was a year ago.


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[JPoJohnson]

TES is not a dominant force in the meta. If it was an ends-all beats-all deck then more people would run it and it would place more often in tournaments. Obviously if we want this deck to be a tournament factor that we think it can be, something needs to change with the list in some sort of way to deal with the current meta. With that being the case, I see no issue with testing different set ups and seeing what we can do to improve both consistency, power, and interacting with hate. While I don't think I'll go in the same direction as everything that Bryant is testing, it has merit. ANT is something that top 8s large tournaments here and there. They are obviously doing something (whether it is quantity of players, quality of players, or the deck itself) that is making it have more of a presence and post better results. While you guys may disagree with changes here or there, I appreciate others taking the time and effort to do so in order to improve the overall deck. No reason to hate on someone because you disagree.

Bryant always tweaks his deck and then tweaks it again based on whether he likes or dislikes the changes, this is not new.

[Asthereal]

I feel like some people don't understand that this deck is adapting the the meta. Bryant's list did remain almost the same for quite a while but the format isn't the same as it was a year ago.
Oh dear. How can you say that? Of course we understand. Some here just disagree with the changes.
I disagree with the changes, because the changes are making the deck work like a worse version of ANT.

The changes so far:
- Less Rainbow lands, more fetch and duals
- Cutting Silence/Chant effects for Discard
- Addition of Cabal Ritual
- Playing one business spell less

What is left? Maybe this:
- Noticing the power level of Cabal Ritual exceeds that of Rite of Flame, going for the full set of CR's and cutting the Rites
- Noticing the slower game plan of Past in Flames asks for a few lands more, preferably Fetch because it helps our cantrips and Threshold
- Noticing the lands get Wasted, so adding Basics
And where does that leave us? With a copy of Wish ANT, like the already mentioned Shunemann list.

I don't mean to insult anyone (which I feel I have to repeat with every post, but people still seem to think otherwise) but I disagree with the changes, simply because we are moving into a direction that isn't a deck tuning anymore. We are essentially moving to a different deck. All I am saying is that if we want all that, we should switch decks and not turn this lovely deck into something it is not. Some changes are fine, but I really feel the Cabal Ritual plan is taking this over the top. Supporting that card to the fullest requires us to essentially run an ANT shell.

Maybe in the current meta ANT is better. Fine, we can live with that. In six months time things can all be turned around.

[Dice_Box]

How useful would putting a Grim Tutor in the side be while playing 4 IT main?

[Jay_Gatz]

The bit about one less business spell really is only a half truth and honestly if you don't like it then play the 4th tutor main. In a very large percentage of matches I side out a tutor so basically this is just pre-boarding in a way that works very well with the big rituals.


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[Pelikanudo]

How useful would putting a Grim Tutor in the side be while playing 4 IT main?

that was my idea but also was a joke.!!
please don't do that.

@Jay_Gatz: About this: I feel like some people don't understand that this deck is adapting the the meta. Bryant's list did remain almost the same for quite a while but the format isn't the same as it was a year ago.

Sure. Jay sure. TES hadn't adapted to my meta until Discard was played instead of silence. that is the truth. I've had success with every flavours of storm deck in my meta except with TES and not because of skill, just becauase of Silece and C.Mox - simple. this is something I've always known, but I dont play the deck because of its effectivenesss, becuase I just like it, now we play discard I 've seen opportunities of winning some tournament,
I absolutly know that I can win tournaments with ANT, TNT or DDFT decks an even easily! and now with TES with discard, but I prefer other kind of taste. the TES taste. sure C.Mox is bad becuase it is card disadvantage but makes the deck be as versatile and as Lem said: "TES can disgregate whatever deck with surgical precission.", now with 2 C.M and 3 I.T you can not.

I suggest to to play the TNT approach instead of including Rituals to a deck which wants to win before 3rd turn...

well, Last post related to this discussion, what I need to do is win some great tournament and demosntrate this...

[seilaquem]

Oh dear. How can you say that? Of course we understand. Some here just disagree with the changes.
I disagree with the changes, because the changes are making the deck work like a worse version of ANT.

The changes so far:
- Less Rainbow lands, more fetch and duals
- Cutting Silence/Chant effects for Discard
- Addition of Cabal Ritual
- Playing one business spell less

What is left? Maybe this:
- Noticing the power level of Cabal Ritual exceeds that of Rite of Flame, going for the full set of CR's and cutting the Rites
- Noticing the slower game plan of Past in Flames asks for a few lands more, preferably Fetch because it helps our cantrips and Threshold
- Noticing the lands get Wasted, so adding Basics
And where does that leave us? With a copy of Wish ANT, like the already mentioned Shunemann list.

I don't mean to insult anyone (which I feel I have to repeat with every post, but people still seem to think otherwise) but I disagree with the changes, simply because we are moving into a direction that isn't a deck tuning anymore. We are essentially moving to a different deck. All I am saying is that if we want all that, we should switch decks and not turn this lovely deck into something it is not. Some changes are fine, but I really feel the Cabal Ritual plan is taking this over the top. Supporting that card to the fullest requires us to essentially run an ANT shell.

Maybe in the current meta ANT is better. Fine, we can live with that. In six months time things can all be turned around.

I see your point here. But i don't think we are moving to a different deck. It's just trying to adapt to the meta.
cause the fact is, there are 2 features that still make TES the deck we play:
- the rite of flames chain to a fast empty the warrens
- no tendrils nor past in flames for a better ad nauseam

I do agree the deck is moving closer the the ANT playstyle, but the fast plays are still available. besides, you can use the sideboard to approach the best form to play, depending on which deck you are facing. Lately, i have been going all-in on the pseudo ant (boarding in past in flames and tendrils) vs. burn and cutting the ad nauseam out. not sure if thats the correct line to play, but it has been working fine for me.

this deck has not become Shunemann ANT just yet. it is just looks very similar, to the untrained eyes =P (i mean, for god's sake, everyone in my meta still thinks I play ANT, and asks me whats the difference u.u'')

[Lemnear]

How useful would putting a Grim Tutor in the side be while playing 4 IT main?

You mean paying 10 mana and 3 life to grab and cast AN? For my taste the whole extension of the AN plan makes the deck slower game 1 (no Verdict if that is THAT bad in the current metagame) while focusing maybe too much on AN which already isn't too hot in the current Delver metagame. Therefore, I'm not too fond of removing options for fast EtW/AN for the sake of the lategame during game 1 as cutting Mox and Infernal would indicate. Just my personal taste.

[Jay_Gatz]

Not that I am suggesting this but if you wanted a tutor in the board I would probably play the grim main along with 3 infernals and the 4th infernal in the board


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[wonderPreaux]

I feel like some of you are blowing Cabal Ritual way out of proportion here. You are aware you dont have to go for thresh and you can just use it as a black Desperate Ritual, right? It's still +1 mana, like a Chrome Mox would be, but in matchups where you have to go long, it gives you extra options. Postboard, if my Patriot or Stoneblade opponent goes "Island, go" its a good bet I'll be taking some time to Wish for Tutor/protection and likely will go off Turn 3 and enjoy having extra mana to play around Spell Pierce. But its not like if my Elf opponent goes "Forest, Symbiote, go" I wouldnt just slam my hand down their throat, threshold be damned. Cabal Rit and "preboarding" the 4th Infernal Tutor to the SB give you extra options against Blue control that has been giving Storm decks extra trouble every since TNN made it easy for them to handle fair decks. This does come with some slight decrease in the number of t1 Ad Nauseams or Warrens, but its an adjustment for the meta and what that means is trading percentage points in less relevant matchups for points in more relevant matchups.

[seilaquem]

I feel like some of you are blowing Cabal Ritual way out of proportion here. You are aware you dont have to go for thresh and you can just use it as a black Desperate Ritual, right? It's still +1 mana, like a Chrome Mox would be, but in matchups where you have to go long, it gives you extra options. Postboard, if my Patriot or Stoneblade opponent goes "Island, go" its a good bet I'll be taking some time to Wish for Tutor/protection and likely will go off Turn 3 and enjoy having extra mana to play around Spell Pierce. But its not like if my Elf opponent goes "Forest, Symbiote, go" I wouldnt just slam my hand down their throat, threshold be damned. Cabal Rit and "preboarding" the 4th Infernal Tutor to the SB give you extra options against Blue control that has been giving Storm decks extra trouble every since TNN made it easy for them to handle fair decks. This does come with some slight decrease in the number of t1 Ad Nauseams or Warrens, but its an adjustment for the meta and what that means is trading percentage points in less relevant matchups for points in more relevant matchups.

that's an excellent point. i like being greedy about cabal ritual, but forgetting it's a (inefficient) +1 made me lose some games i played. some times, you just gotta warrens them and see that is it about.

I tried swapping the 4th IT to the maindeck when i played against some "we gotta kill them t2" decks (jund, goblins)... didn't feel much difference in those particular games, but i guess that cant be all that bad, right?

[Lemnear]

I feel like some of you are blowing Cabal Ritual way out of proportion here. You are aware you dont have to go for thresh and you can just use it as a black Desperate Ritual, right? It's still +1 mana, like a Chrome Mox would be, but in matchups where you have to go long, it gives you extra options. Postboard, if my Patriot or Stoneblade opponent goes "Island, go" its a good bet I'll be taking some time to Wish for Tutor/protection and likely will go off Turn 3 and enjoy having extra mana to play around Spell Pierce. But its not like if my Elf opponent goes "Forest, Symbiote, go" I wouldnt just slam my hand down their throat, threshold be damned. Cabal Rit and "preboarding" the 4th Infernal Tutor to the SB give you extra options against Blue control that has been giving Storm decks extra trouble every since TNN made it easy for them to handle fair decks. This does come with some slight decrease in the number of t1 Ad Nauseams or Warrens, but its an adjustment for the meta and what that means is trading percentage points in less relevant matchups for points in more relevant matchups.

I think that here your metagame kicks in. If you are playing in SCG tourneys only with all their Multi-format Gründers which prefer the easy, streamlined decks like Delver, this point of view is valid and nothing new, but in Europe you see a lot more Miracles, D&T and BUG decks with Hymn, all matchups in which the slower approach with only 3 IT but CR's can bite your ass

[wonderPreaux]

I think that here your metagame kicks in. If you are playing in SCG tourneys only with all their Multi-format Gründers which prefer the easy, streamlined decks like Delver, this point of view is valid and nothing new, but in Europe you see a lot more Miracles, D&T and BUG decks with Hymn, all matchups in which the slower approach with only 3 IT but CR's can bite your ass

against DnT the boarded IT is the difference between having 10 business cards to go off early vs 9, which is 74% in your opener vs 70% and against Miracles and BUG youd board the 4th tutor out anyway. for BUG, the ability to have a really stellar ritual for PiF also helps against discard when their fast clocks make IT -> Ad Nauseam less effective as well. Miracles is also pretty popular lately in the SCG circuit and America, so I dont think Bryant wouldve discounted it in his changes either.

If your meta is full of Jund/DnT or other hymm/hatebears to the point where Diminishing Returns could be good (because part of the reason for sided IT is that Burning Wish otherwise couldnt be a storm engine now that Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains are outdated) and that 4% difference is VERY relevant... then just dont play Cabal Rit. Switch Rits in main for an IT and 3rd Chrome Mox, board a Diminishing Returns and call it a day. I think Bryant said it before, you dont HAVE to play his list and his list is likely metagaming for the general SCG or tourney meta, apply your own conditions as needed.

[Asthereal]

Of course we don't HAVE to play Bryants list. But what's thr point of a forum if we aren't allowed to discuss deck changes? Bryant is the one person who had ALL rights to change the list to whatever he likes it to become, for better or for worse. And I'll be here telling him I like his changes. Or that I dislike them. I know his contribution to the deck, and I will never tell him to shut up or to stop innovating. I will, however, mention his changes that I disagree with.

I strongly feel that we are trying to adapt to the meta with the wrong deck. If the Discard spells, the sheer power level of Cabal Ritual and the certainty of Past in Flames are what gets the Storm mechanic to win games, we should make sure we utilise those as well as we can. And we will, if we admit we should be using Basics, Fetch Lands and Cabal Ritual in an ANT shell.

If we decide we need something new all together, I am very willing to cough up a new list. Heck, why not do so right now?
NOTE: I am just throwing this in here. I have never played this. It's just an idea.

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony /21

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Cabal Ritual /19

3-4 Duress
3-4 Cabal Therapy /7

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
8 UBR Fetch /13

Side:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames.
1 Reforge the Soul
0-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cabal Therapy/Duress
1 Thoughtseize.
1 Grapeshot
1 New Sorcery Bounce Card (forgot the name)
2 Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
0-2 (meta slot)
0-1 Ad Nauseam /15

[Patrunkenphat7]

I'm not really sure I understand the direction of this deck. It is becoming fragile ANT, and I don't see the pros of playing the current list over an ANT build that runs a more stable manabase and more fetches. Before this list the deck was a better Belcher deck, and that was pretty cool if you were into that kind of thing. Burning Wish ANT was already a deck, and I'm not sure it fits into the "TES" shell at all.

[Lemnear]

Of course we don't HAVE to play Bryants list. But what's thr point of a forum if we aren't allowed to discuss deck changes? Bryant is the one person who had ALL rights to change the list to whatever he likes it to become, for better or for worse. And I'll be here telling him I like his changes. Or that I dislike them. I know his contribution to the deck, and I will never tell him to shut up or to stop innovating. I will, however, mention his changes that I disagree with.

I strongly feel that we are trying to adapt to the meta with the wrong deck. If the Discard spells, the sheer power level of Cabal Ritual and the certainty of Past in Flames are what gets the Storm mechanic to win games, we should make sure we utilise those as well as we can. And we will, if we admit we should be using Basics, Fetch Lands and Cabal Ritual in an ANT shell.

If we decide we need something new all together, I am very willing to cough up a new list. Heck, why not do so right now?
NOTE: I am just throwing this in here. I have never played this. It's just an idea.

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony /21

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Cabal Ritual /19

3-4 Duress
3-4 Cabal Therapy /7

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
8 UBR Fetch /13

Side:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames.
1 Reforge the Soul
0-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cabal Therapy/Duress
1 Thoughtseize.
1 Grapeshot
1 New Sorcery Bounce Card (forgot the name)
2 Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
0-2 (meta slot)
0-1 Ad Nauseam /15

Pretty funny as I tried out the idea to jam together all 3 Rituals earlier this year too. Sadly the result was that you don't want to go for AN unless you have 1-2 mana float, otherwise the odds of continuing the combo with less initial mana but a higher average cmc of the cards revealed to AN will force You to pass the turn very often. This is basically the reason AN is considered a "draw 7" only in ANT. Ergo the increased number of Rituals made the deck slower with a pretty mana-flooded midgame in which PIF was miles better than AN (in case I wasn't dying because all I drew was mana)

[Asthereal]

Pretty funny as I tried out the idea to jam together all 3 Rituals earlier this year too. Sadly the result was that you don't want to go for AN unless you have 1-2 mana float, otherwise the odds of continuing the combo with less initial mana but a higher average cmc of the cards revealed to AN will force You to pass the turn very often. This is basically the reason AN is considered a "draw 7" only in ANT. Ergo the increased number of Rituals made the deck slower with a pretty mana-flooded midgame in which PIF was miles better than AN (in case I wasn't dying because all I drew was mana)
Maybe you missed the fact that I cut Ad Nauseam from the main deck I posted? :wink:

I only added it to the board as a 0-1 (meaning take it if you want it, otherwise leave it). If I play the deck the way I posted, I would probably play an Ad Nauseam and 1-2 Chrome Mox on side for the non-blue matchups and so I can switch Empty with Ad Nauseam against Miracles.

But discussing this is probably very off topic anyway, because the list I posted is by no means an Epic Storm list. It probably comes closer to the Grinding Station deck qua playing style.

[Lemnear]

Maybe you missed the fact that I cut Ad Nauseam from the main deck I posted? :wink:

I only added it to the board as a 0-1 (meaning take it if you want it, otherwise leave it). If I play the deck the way I posted, I would probably play an Ad Nauseam and 1-2 Chrome Mox on side for the non-blue matchups and so I can switch Empty with Ad Nauseam against Miracles.

But discussing this is probably very off topic anyway, because the list I posted is by no means an Epic Storm list. It probably comes closer to the Grinding Station deck qua playing style.

You are right. i totally missed it xD

[Final Fortune]

Just because I run the 4th Infernal Tutor, 4th Chrome Mox and Thoughtseize MD doesn't mean I don't think there are other viable configurations, I think the number of Infernal Tutors and Chrome Moxes are relative to how many counters and Wastelands you expect to face in your metagame, one of the things I've been experimenting with is cutting Green, replacing Gemstone Mines with Fetchlands and playing an Island with more lands in the SB.

I haven't been very impressed by the miser's Cabal Ritual, I generally just want lands.

[Bryant Cook]

I've been gone all weekend, I opted to go to GP:Chicago.

This thread is jut chock full of whining, I understand that some people dislike change. If you don't like my changes, just don't play them. But I'm actively trying to find the highest success rates and right now with in heavy blue metagame Cabal Ritual is better than the additional land and a third Chrome Mox. If the metagame changes and decks like Death and Taxes, Jund or Burn with Eidelon become popular, then it would be right to switch back. They're metagame changes people.

One of the issues with this thread is I'm beginning to wonder if people know what they're talking about at all anymore. Cabal Ritual is bad against discard decks? What?

I played against UWr and BUG Delver over the weekend, I was thrilled every time I drew Cabal Ritual and it wasn't a Chrome Mox. I also never once saw a lack of power in Ad Nauseam. Notably because casting Ad Nauseam with mana floating is just as good as revealing a Chome Mox.

[PartyMonster]

I've been gone all weekend, I opted to go to GP:Chicago.

This thread is jut chock full of whining, I understand that some people dislike change. If you don't like my changes, just don't play them. But I'm actively trying to find the highest success rates and right now with in heavy blue metagame Cabal Ritual is better than the additional land and a third Chrome Mox. If the metagame changes and decks like Death and Taxes, Jund or Burn with Eidelon become popular, then it would be right to switch back. They're metagame changes people.

One of the issues with this thread is I'm beginning to wonder if people know what they're talking about at all anymore. Cabal Ritual is bad against discard decks? What?

I played against UWr and BUG Delver over the weekend, I was thrilled every time I drew Cabal Ritual and it wasn't a Chrome Mox. I also never once saw a lack of power in Ad Nauseam. Notably because casting Ad Nauseam with mana floating is just as good as revealing a Chome Mox.

🙏
Amen

[Bryant Cook]

If you guys are interested in another change, I'm cutting Pyroblast for another Chain of Vapor and a third Abrupt Decay. With Eideleon becoming more and more popular I want more answers (mainly a second Chain), with this our Miracles match-up weakens which is why I'm adding the third Decay back in. As for sideboarding versus UWr decks. I think bringing in Grapeshot or Tendrils (Your choice) is a fine solution to Meddling Mage.

[wonderPreaux]

Hey there, everyone. As promised, I decided to go ahead and try the Cabal Rituals in the main, took it into a Daily Event on MTGO. I kept an eye out for situation where Cabal Ritual came up and noted whether it would've been better or worse as a Chrome Mox or a land (unfortunately, its online, so its not as though I couldn't somehow note the cards to know which would've been the land or the Mox etc). I went in a fan of these changes, and I wanted to put a little money where my mouth was. Next up, I'll be testing with no Pyroblast and an additional copy of Chain of Vapor and Abrupt Decay, just because I do encounter a fair amount of Burn online.

Unfortunately, I've still not unpacked all my stuff after moving, so I couldn't stream the event. Enjoy this mini-report in it's place, hopefully I can shed a little light on how effectual, positively or negatively, the Cabal Rituals were. 33 player event, dailies are always 4 rounds on MTGO. It's an admittedly small sample size, but a little data is better than none at all. Luckily, being at my comp let me take a lot of notes.

Round 1 - Death and Taxes

Game 1: Opponent leads off with Plains into Aether Vial, passing back to me. I launch a Gitaxian Probe, seeing equipment, a couple Aven Mindcensors, a land and a Thalia. I throw around some mana before using a Burning Wish to find 14 Goblins off Empty the Warrens. The opponent can't beat 14 Goblins and concedes. Cabal Ritual never came up.

Sideboarding:
- 3 Duress
- 2 Ponder
+ 1 Infernal Tutor
+ 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Chain of Vapor
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Tropical Island

Game 2: Opponent heads on in with Rishadan Port into Aether Vial and passes. I mimic my last opening too with Gitaxian Probe, revealing Thalia, Port, and no white sources among the other cards. I then throw some mana around, Cabal Ritual included, Emptying the Warrens for 14 via Burning Wish once more. It's worth noting I emptied my hand too, meaning a Chrome Mox would've been as useless as a land when it comes to trying to go off turn 1. Bricking here would've led to a painful Rishadan Porting at least, or a topped white source could invite a Thalia to eat all my cookies. Cabal Ritiual, even though I didn't get to hit Threshold, was exactly what I needed to play the Belcher role here. 10 min round 1.

Round 2 - UWR Delver

Game 1: My hand has no Cabal Rituals, but it does have a turn 1 play of Lion's Eye Diamond and Infernal Tutor into Ad Nauseam. Being on the play, I just decide to jam it, no fear. With only 1 land and no cantrips, it's not like the hand would get better fighting other counters anyway and 20 life Ad Nauseams are beautiful. The opponent doesn't have Force of Will and doesn't concede to the Gitaxian Probe that follows my Ad Nauseam; 2 big mistakes, I suppose. The opponent reveals Scalding Tarn, Flooded Strand, True-Name Nemesis, Stifle, Daze, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Umezawa's Jitte: UWR Delver without the secondary or tertiary colors. I do some stuff and dunk, no Cabal Rituals, sorry.

Sideboarding:
- 2 Ponder
+ 2 Pyroblast

Game 2: I keep an ok hand, the opponent kept a one-lander with some graveyard hate, which would end up being irrelevant as I never saw a Cabal Ritual and he never cast the Rest in Peace, only a Graffdigger's Cage. The opponent leads with a Delver of Secrets and later flips it revealing Force of Will, complicating matters. I Ponder revealing Burning Wish, Empty the Warrens and Burning Wish. I have to go off the turn after, an earlier Duress on another Force of Will revealed the opponent has no other counters, blue cards, or lands, though their next draw could be a counter or a blue card. I get struck to 13 by Insectile Aberration and the opponent passes with one untapped Tundra, the Graffdigger's Cage, Insectile Aberration and a hand of: 1 unknown, Force of Will, Lightning Bolt, Stoneforge Mystic and Rest in Peace. I draw and between Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens, I have 3 options, depending on how safe I want to be:

1: Use Burning Wish for Thoughtseize, follow with Empty the Warrens. This plays around all counters, conserves a Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal for the next Burning Wish on top and produces a lot of Goblins.
2: Bait counters with a midsized Empty the Warrens, follow with Burning Wish to Empty the Warrens again. This plays around Flusterstorm only if they throw it at the first Empty the Warrens, Force of Will on Burning Wish would leave me with a very shaky clock, though. If the opponent has nothing this option gives the opponent one turn fewer compared to option 1 if successful, which is the allure.
3: Jam all the mana into a Burning Wish and try to Tendrils out. This wins right away, 2 turns before option 1 and 1 turn before option 2, but plays around absolutely no counters.

With the opponent stuck on one land and a 4 turn clock as is, I decide to play it safe and run option 1. Thoughtseize nabs Stoneforge Mystic after revealing nothing of consequence, and I produce 16 Goblins with the in-hand Empty the Warrens. With 2 lands, a Lotus Petal, and Lion's Eye Diamond, I'm pretty secure at 11 life, because I can grab Grapeshot or Massacre to stem damage, or even Tendrils for 2 in a pinch. The opponent continues to draw dead and loses. While Rest in Peace would've made Cabal Ritual lackluster (if they could cast it and I had Cabal Ritual, neither of which happened), the real issue was just making sure I could resolve spells when they mattered. Also I was, once again, strapped for cards and storm-count to the point where Chrome Mox or a land, respectively, wouldn't be very welcome at the time even if the issue of Rest in Peace had reared its head.

Round 3 - UR Delver

Game 1: The opponent leads with Grim Lavamancer off of a Volcanic Island, revealing their deck choice. I actually kept a no-lander because it contained Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Gitaxian Probe, Burning Wish, Brainstorm and 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds, the logic being I would either go off or find a land. I resigned myself to the latter when my Gitaxian Probe revealed a Force of Will and Snapcaster Mage amidst a Goblin Guide, Ponder and land. The Gitaxian Probe drew me another Lotus Petal, so I hope to use the Ponder off of Lotus Petal to draw out an aggressive Force of Will and win or at least find a land. Again, I had to settle for the latter. I spend a turn cantripping and hitting another land, then soak some damage, falling to 13. On turn 4 I Brainstorm, placing a second Burning Wish on top. I use my first Burning Wish to play a subsequent Thoughtseize, my opponent assumes I'm not going off this turn and Brainstorms to protect the Force of Will, revealing a pair of Lightning Bolts, lands, and a Ponder. I then lay down the 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds, use Gitaxian Probe to crack both Lion's Eye Diamonds and Burning Wish into Tendrils of Agony for lethal. No Cabal Rituals involved.

Sideboarding:
- 2 Ponder
+ 2 Pyroblast

Game 2: Here my greed catches up to me as I keep another hand of shaky mana due to the allure of in-hand Ad Nauseam and Pyroblast. The opponent leads with Delver of Secrets. I Duress a Force of Will, seeing Swan Song and Snapcaster Mage among some lands and red cards. On the following upkeep my opponent yields an Insectile Aberration by revealing another Force of Will right off the top. I struggle for a while, stuck on mana, my opponent deploys a Goblin Guide when my Pyroblast hits his Insectile Aberration. I end up dying in the face of multiple counters. In retrospect it was probably a mistake to keep such an unstable hand as I could play through very little and Ad Nauseam isn't at it's best against a Delver deck packing extra burn. My bad, guys.

Sideboarding:
No additional changes

Game 3: I lead off with a Duress that strikes a Flusterstorm, revealing a couple lands, a Relic of Progenitus, Delver of Secrets and Ponder. The opponent decides to Ponder and pass, I decide to exploit that with a Cabal Therapy on Delver of Secrets. I end up hitting 2, which were likely going to come down the following turn with Ponder setup. Luckily, I managed to deny such a clock, and the opponent resigns to cantrips and Relic of Progenitus. I'm looking at my double Cabal Rituals and recognizing I'll never be able to hit Threshold on either. However, I ended up laying quite a few lands to exploit this clockless state, so another land or a Chrome Mox would actually be worse (in fact, another fetch would be useless as I ended up needing to fetch up all my duals). I move in with a Cabal Therapy on Flusterstorm, only to see a Force of Will and 2 Snapcaster Mage as my opponent's remaining cards, I would have to get very creative here because I would need far too much discard otherwise. Over the next 2 turns the opponent lands a Delver of Secrets and flips it. Meanwhile I used Burning Wish to try and draw a counter on one turn, ending up with Empty the Warrens, and then on the following turn replicated the Empty the Warrens with Infernal Tutor. On turn 8 the opponent taps down to Snapcaster a cantrip. This surprises me, as he would only have the Force and one unknown card (he revealed another Force to flip his Delver of Secrets, but cracked a fetchland to find an unknown card, as 2 Force of Wills aren't that great against double Force of Will) to protect himself. I ramp up with Rite of Flame and 2 Cabal Rituals (neither had Threshold as my grave was being sapped every turn) and cast the first Empty the Warrens. The opponent only had 2 mana open, so they couldn't Snapcaster Mage a Flusterstorm, the Empty the Warrens resolved. I then flashback a Cabal Therapy to build storm and cut off his other Snapcaster Mage from being used as a cantripping blocker, the opponent then reveals their own trick by responding with a punishing Price of Progress. I eat 10 damage (like I said, land or Chrome Mox wouldn't have been helpful with the amount of lands I'd been stuck with), and followup with another Cabal Therapy on Force of Will, to build storm. I then lay the last Warrens and pass with 22 Goblins and 4 life. The opponent draws, swings with Insectile Aberration and Snapcaster Mage, I block and fall to 1. On my turn, the opponent cracks Relic of Progenitus and... doesn't hit a burn spell. I managed to salvage the match with a double Empty the Warrens that I'd never used before, so I feel like I made up for my sloppy keep last game. Moreover, the big issue here was, again, not about maximizing rituals, but about getting spells to resolve. The Cabal Rituals, though they weren't at their best, were still better than a land or Chrome Mox. If you need further convincing, note how useless another land would be here: http://puu.sh/9HqUa/066960cf44.jpg

Round 4 - Ad Nauseam Tendrils

Game 1: The opponent is on the play and goes in with Lotus Petal, followed by Dark Ritual and Duress. Oh boy, the turn 1 no-lander protected kill? I F6 and sit back as the opponent continues with Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor to double Lion's Eye Diamond, 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds and an Infernal Tutor for Past in Flames. My eyes glaze a bit as the Duress is flashback'd, and then I situp with a start... the opponent has 3 black mana floating, 1 card in hand, and no rituals left. The opponent played one spell too far and had given the game away. I then leisurely setup as the opponent has nothing and I only had to build back from double Duress. I go off turn 4 with double Cabal Ritual, with Threshold, into an incredible Ad Nauseam. You wouldn't get this kind of mileage from an extra land or a Chrome Mox, that's for sure. I show him how to really combo out with a 16 count Tendrils.

Sideboarding:
- 1 Empty the Warrens
+ 1 Tendrils of Agony

Game 2: I keep a solid hand that is one Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond away from turn 1 Ad Nauseam off of Infernal Tutor, it also boasts a Ponder to find more business if the opponent has discard turn 1. The opponent leads with Tropical Island into Ponder, no discard. I cantrip for my turn and still don't get there. The opponent then Brainstorms, fetches an Underground Sea and Ponders. Being unmolested by discard for so long, I simply lay my third land, cast a Lotus Petal and a Lion's Eye Diamond, and then launch Infernal Tutor into Ad Nauseam. I pay all the way down to 4 life, yet I only found Infernal Tutor, no Tendrils of Agony, and no Lion's Eye Diamond to get hellbent to find the Tendrils of Agony. However, I have a Ponder to find my 4 outer (3 Lion's Eye Diamonds and a Tendrils of Agony), and Cabal Ritual to give me enough mana to launch the fairly secure backup plan of 4 discard spells and nearly 30 Goblins, which is probably lethal in over 99% of cases. I Ponder and hit the Tendrils, what a lucky guy. Again, land wouldn't have gotten me there, and another Chrome Mox would, at best, give me another Ponder to play at the cost of the black mana, and thus discard spells, that made Empty the Warrens such a secure backup plan.

So that is my testing of the Cabal Ritual build, a nifty little 4-0, with a few bad plays and a few good plays. Ultimately, I never felt like I wanted a land or a Chrome Mox, Cabal Ritual seemed to be a better card on average. Even in the midst of the Relic or threat of Thalia I was still perfectly happy to accept my +1 black mana, and when I actually hit it on Threshold it gave me enough mana to do some real crazy stuff. I'll keep on testing the new changes, including the removal of Pyroblasts, later on. Hope this was useful. Thanks for reading.

[sawatarix]

Thanks alot for the report ,pretty entertaining :)

So you never cast cabal ritual with ******** right?
Looks like it was always just like a pyretic ritual.
But well i'm not a huge fan of chrome mox anyway so i would definately prefer cabal ritual.
There are so many games were i don't have any card to imprint in my hand ( and you really don't wanna imprint a ritual for instance)

[wonderPreaux]

Thanks alot for the report ,pretty entertaining :)

So you never cast cabal ritual with ******** right?
Looks like it was always just like a pyretic ritual.
But well i'm not a huge fan of chrome mox anyway so i would definately prefer cabal ritual.
There are so many games were i don't have any card to imprint in my hand ( and you really don't wanna imprint a ritual for instance)

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I hit threshold for Cabal Rituals in both games playing against ANT. I think it really excels in the storm mirror, since there's an turn or two spent cantripping or exchanging discard spells. I agree, though, that it was often just a black Pyretic Ritual. Though when you're comboing out the fact that it doesn't cost a card and is always playable is pretty significant, imo. It's also better for Past in Flames, though that didn't come up.

[sawatarix]

Ah,missed it.

Pif is great to have but is not our plan a).
having access to ad nauseam with mana floating seems great.
And if not,6 initial mana sources (4 peals and 2 Chrome mox) are enough to continue the combo after an ad nauseam without mana floating.
In my opinion we never need more than 2 chrome mox in the deck,let's cut bad cards from the deck and replace them with good ones.

[wonderPreaux]

In my opinion we never need more than 2 chrome mox in the deck,let's cut bad cards from the deck and replace them with good ones.

Well, I wouldn't call Chrome Mox a bad card, I wouldn't wanna go overboard there. Its more like a necessary evil, which is why the marginal value pretty steeply declines. I'd say the first and second "black Pyretic Ritual" has a higher marginal value than the third Chrome Mox and 13th land, though. Especially with the possibility of threshold that makes it better than actual Pyretic Ritual.

[Lemnear]

Looks like you've never got molested by Stifle, Daze, Wasteland, Spell Pierce or mulligans which are the reasons to run more initial mana sources rather than Cabal Rituals. The lategame power of CR is undeniable, but that was never the point; it was it's initial cost for early combo attempts off a single land or against the beforementioned cards and it's cmc for Ad Nauseam. I guess I found myself too often on the other side of the spectrum, with a CR in hand against softcounters, barely any IMS and without thres.hold

[wonderPreaux]

Looks like you've never got molested by Stifle, Daze, Wasteland, Spell Pierce or mulligans which are the reasons to run more initial mana sources rather than Cabal Rituals. The lategame power of CR is undeniable, but that was never the point; it was it's initial cost for early combo attempts off a single land or against the beforementioned cards and it's cmc for Ad Nauseam. I guess I found myself too often on the other side of the spectrum, with a CR in hand against softcounters, barely any IMS and without thres.hold

In the DnT match the Cabal Ritual was just fine for going off in one turn, I think the initial cost of Cabal Ritual is only an issue if Cabal Ritual is your only ritual effect. It goes without saying that Cabal Ritual isnt excelling at turn 1 combos, but the real impact of that is probably felt in the copy that is substituted for the 3rd Chrome Mox, as the ability to get 2 IMS on turn 1 is less available, not from Cabal Ritual being a poor ritual effect in the early game.

I will agree, though, that I did get pretty favorable arrangements of opponents, storm and blue control is pretty popular, though burn and DnT also have above average representation and I could have just as easily ran into them. I can also see how a dearth of initial lands can be deadly, the only game I lost in that daily was, fundamentally, just about me keeping in a sloppy manner and not having enough initial mana to do things.

Overall, I feel like Cabal Ritual is good at all points in the game, its a Pyretic Ritual when you wanna go off early and belch out goblins, and it's a ton of mana for midgame once you fought through counters. Accommodating these Rituals takes space though, and while shaving off an IMS does lead to less stability, I get to wonder what else you'd cut out. You could shave discard or cantrips, the former having been done before, but then you swing the pendulum the other way and lose ground against slower control decks.

One daily is, as I stated, nothing close to an exhaustive look at the metagame, but it seems favorable today. If I run into the similarly popular DnT/tempo/Burn decks, I am admittedly worse off, but I think the ground I'm gaining on blue decks with those hard counters is worth more than the ground I lose by dropping a Chrome Mox. You'll notice I never sided out a Chrome Mox against Delver, though, its not as though I didnt realize that the Chrome Moxen were more valuable now that I only had the two, I just don't side them out much anymore. Next time, when I test with another Chain and Decay over Pyroblasts, my boarding for RUG will just be cutting a Ponder for a Tropical Island, for instance. I feel like the deck is just as strong overall, you just have to revalue Chrome Moxes and be a bit more sensitive to mana. I'll keep on testing, though, because more data will only make things clearer.

EDIT: I mentioned this on twitter a while back, but when Cabal Ritual was being tried out around 2 months ago, an option I was considering was boarding both of them and a Ponder out for 2 Pyroblast and Tropical Island, and then just playing a slower game against the tempo decks. So, you can side out Chrome Mox less, and you can also side Tropical Island in more against a deck like RUG, especially moving forward with no Pyroblasts.

[davelin]

The decklist on the opening post isn't tournament-legal just FYI

[Bryant Cook]

The decklist on the opening post isn't tournament-legal just FYI

It's seventy-five cards (Unless my google doc is lying to me) and only four of each card. I think you miscounted.

[wonderPreaux]

It's seventy-five cards (Unless my google doc is lying to me) and only four of each card. I think you miscounted.

your OP only lists 2 Duress and counts up as 59 cards. I think the 3rd Duress just isnt listed

[Bryant Cook]

Corrected. A private message would've sufficed gentlemen.

[Kidbails]

I played TES yesterday in a small 10 man tournament that my LGS held. I didn't do so well, losing to dredge twice, but beating DnT in three total rounds, so an overall 1-2 finish. I thought I'd write a report on the tournament cause there were some good plays (and some bad ones). I'm still pretty newbie at playing TES though.

For reference, I played Bryant's list from the OP. Also, I'm a little fuzzy on some of the details, as I didn't think to take notes.


Round 1: vs Dredge
Game 1: I haven't tested this matchup much, but I didn't think it could be much different than a matchup where whoever wins the die roll has a serious leg up (I knew what this guy was on before the match started). Well I won the die roll and open up a hand of 2x LED, 1x Dark Ritual, 1x Infernal Tutor, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 1x Rite of Flame. I keep because of the potential for a first turn Ad Nauseam if I hit any black producing source (I decide I like those chances). Well I miss off of both probes, pass, and he has the turn one off of breakthrough + lion's eye diamond. -.-

SB
Nothing

Game 2: I open a hand with the potential for 12-14 goblins on turn 2, and he's on a mull to 6. I duress him turn one and take his breakthrough, which was his only gas for the game. 12 goblin tokens gets there.

SB
+1 Thoughseize
-1 Duress

Game 3: This one was the most interesting game of the three. I open a hand with Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Cabal Therapy, LED, Scalding Tarn, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal. I keep it, although I'm thinking this is a possible mulligan cause it might not be fast enough. I probe first turn and see 2x Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, along with three dredgers (none are Grave-Troll, which is important) and a putrid imp. I immediately Therapy the careful studies, which I think ends up being a bad play because his stinkweed imp can get him threshold at this point on his next turn for his Coliseum. He plays the imp and passes. My draw for the turn is a brainstorm, and I play it, without thinking about sequencing this correctly (ponder first would have been better I think, rookie mistake). I find burning wish and LED x2, and I put back the wish and an LED to protect from his therapies. Well, he pretty much goes crazy the next turn off of the coliseum, and puts me to one, meaning I can't crack my fetchland to get more mana. I don't think I played this one very well.

Loss 1-2
Round 2: vs DnT
Game 1: I know what I'm against before the game starts again. I win the die roll and open up a hand that makes 16 goblins turn one. I obviously go for it and he can't deal with it.

SB:
+2 Chain of Vapor
+2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Ponder
-3 Duress
Whoops, I forgot to bring in the tropical.

Game 2: I open a hand with double decay, LED, 2 fetches, and 2 petals. He plays plains, pass. I play a fetch and pass, then realize I forgot to bring in the tropical island to even pay for the decays anyways. He plays a thalia after playing a Karakas. I try to force through my petals to get the green mana needed, pass the turn back. He plays mangara and I scoop, with no way to go off next turn through the Thalia.

SB:
+1 Tropical Island
-1 Chrome Mox

Game 3: It was something like Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, Petal, Gemstone Mine, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, Probe. I keep it, play brainstorm on turn one to find 2x LED and a Cabal Ritual. I put back the cabal ritual and Cabal Therapy, and go for the first turn Ad Nauseam, getting there with a tendrils for about 26 life.

Win 2-1
Round 3: vs Dredge
Another Dredge matchup... I lose the die roll this time, and again I know what this guy is on before we start.
Game 1: I totally forget what I had this game, although I know it wasn't fast enough to beat his turn 2 win.

SB: Nothing

Game 2: I open up a hand that can ad nauseam on the first turn. Sounds like a plan to me, and I get there.

SB: Nothing

Game 3: I do quite well with my opener this game, as I have Empty the Warrens, Brainstorm, Duress, Chrome Mox, LED, Petal, Gemstone Mine (I think). I brainstorm into Burning Wish, Ponder, Dark Ritual, and I put back the Duress and the Ponder in that order (ponder on top) (I think, I don't exactly remember that well). I storm out from here and end with a board full of goblins, LED, and Gemstone mine with a ponder on top of my library. I pass, and he starts to go off. He develops a board of triple narcomoeba, along with three bridges in the graveyard. Then he has no dread return to win the game with so he passes back to me. I draw my ponder, swing in, putting him to some lower life total, and ponder looking for a Cabal Therapy to get rid of his bridges. I don't find it off the ponder, or it's shuffle+draw (instead I see duress, wish, tutor, which is important because if I had cracked the LED for black I would've won the game, finding CT with the tutor. Another rookie mistake). I pass back and he gets the Dread Return.

Loss 1-2



Overall, I had a lot of fun and the deck felt powerful even if it was being piloted by someone not so skilled with the deck. I think with some more practice and playtesting, I should do better.

Also, some of the scenarios might not be perfectly drawn up above, as I'm going directly from memory and didn't take notes. Sorry if that's the case, I swear these things actually happened...

[Lemnear]

2 short remarks before I'm off for the big Football match tonight:

1) in R1/G1 casting the Therapy was indeed the reason you lost. You got greedy seeing the two Careful Studies, but missed that he had a third discard outlet in his hand. If you had pondered into the BS, Wish and LED turn 1 you could have set up a turn 2 combo while all he did was dropping the Imp. You gave up a card (for Brainstorm to put back in exchange for the third LED 4 example) and a whole turn of actions without affecting either your or your opponents combo.

2) your D&T keeps and boarding for game 2 are bad. I preached it day in day out: don't board Decays against D&T because you'll never be able to cast them against Thalia, Wasteland and Port. Keeping a hand without any business but Decays is just bad and never works out like you might have noticed. The 2 viable strategies to beat D&T are either Racing their hatebears or Wishing for massacre T1/2 and slow-roll till you can wipe their board off a U.Sea and combo

[HammerAndSickled]

Why were you on the play in game 3, when you won game 2? He's clearly not manaless so putting TES on the play seems really dumb.

[Kidbails]

@HammerAndSickled - I wasn't. He opened with City of Brass into Faithless Looting for setup, but I forgot to add that in my haste to finish the report this morning.

@Lemnear - Thank you for the insight. It didn't feel like I played the first matchup well at all, tbh.

[Togores]

Hello!
Today I played TES at locals. 4 rounds and so, I ended up wining with all games 2-0 except one.
I played the 2 cabal ritual, with infernal in side and topical in side and all 3 mox in main. Side was 3 Xantid 3 Decay no pyroblast. Expecting miracles and hight tide as mayor contenders.

R1 vs Ur burn
g1 I have no disruption but infernal and seven mana. I ponder he delvers I ponder and so. He bs in his unkeep and shows a fow with his delver, im 99% sure that he has no blue card un his 3/4 grip. Because he would obv have shown other card before. Of he can have like delver land land fow or so. He plays land goblin guide. So only fow + dever + blannks. I was gonna como out but draw a gitaxian and see price, fow , land. So I just nauseam him from 12-14 lives or so and win.
g2 I have a hand of double cabal and duress and some combo. I therapy cause i prefer this to get dazed, naming styfle cause I need to resolve my next turn an empty or a fetch (i dont remeber) And he has 2 surgicals. He plays a probe Sees another therapy and surgicals. Then he ha vendilion + fow. Play his 4th land and vendlions me having him a fow and a bolt.Draws 5th land and atacks me several times until im on 2. he took a bw with vendi. and one was on a mox in the field. At 2 lives I draw another burning and it resolves. While I have no land drop made and no other thing. He is at 14. I burning, It resolves, I count and grab tendrills. My hand is like 3 ROF, gemsone, cabal, tendrills, petal. I petal, then rof, he forces, I play gemstone and Rof, he surgicals. and get the 3rd from my hand. I have 2 red and a cabal with *****. I just cabal and tendrills for the win with a enought storm thanks to his surgical and fow.

Side nothing but if I would have played g3 I would have sided may be grapeshot for if he surgicals my burning but idk

R2 reanimator budget.
G1 I duress him turn 1 and see a hand of: 2 ub lands, ritual, reannimate, buried alive, thoughseize, entomb. So this hand is nuts and I have a hand that loses to seize cause I have ritual, another land and the nauseam. I think more and more what to discard and realize his both land enter tapped if he dosnt own a swamp or island. So I just take the ritual. And on my second turn I draw a rOf and just nauseam him to dead.
g2 He starts making entomb I think im dead cause my hand has no petal only like ponder brainstorm volcanic and red mana and a led + infernal or so. SO im sooo dead. But... he entombs the shit card It that betrays. Yeahhhh super bad opponent. No iona and no griselbrand. SO on my turn I just ponder and Have win on next turn. He renaimats going to 10 and On my turn I just tendrills him and ask why he didnt entombed griselbrand, says he thought its not good, and he sided it out. LOL
Obv a anihilating guy that makes nothing to the board the turn it comes into play its better.

Side:
-4 therapy
-1 empty
+1 seize
+3 xantid
+1 tropical

R3 Miracles (one of the 2 best miracles players in spain) Ballestin
I have good hand of 2 ponders, 1 duress, 1 therapy, gemstone, ritual, infernal. I draw a therapy and play ponder I SHUFFLE (no second land) and draw a led. Then next turn I draw a cabal, ponder again. and find no land and shuffle. Draw another ponder, I need to mana to go off with protected kill. ·3rd pondder gets pierces and gemstone explodes. I draw 3 turns no land He plays a jace. And im dead. I just keep playing to see cards of his deck.
g2 we play a few turns draw and go, I have land and gitaxian, I know he has a counterspell, draw a duress and duress him. Now I dont know 4 card of his hand. He counterspells that means he has nothing. I gitaxian and I one mana short of wining. Dosnt draw a +1 mana source and pass turn. He had explosives, jace and land. On his turn he plays his 6th land and jaces. I keep track of his card in hand and he has put 2 cards back of his 3 drawn with jace. He fetches and plays rip. So now he has like 2-3 cards in hand and no mana up. Im preaty sure one is explosives. So he need fow + blue card. I can not let him untap. And go for combo and win. He then shows me fow but no blue card. I already discarted a fow. and starts complaining how unlucky he was of no drawing a blue card. An I just tell him he was on draing the fow.
g3 He keeps a loose hand and I just nauseam into tendrills him t2 or so.

Side:
-1 mox
-2 cabal ritual
-1 empty
+3 decay
+1 tropical


R4 Miracles (against the other best miracles player in spain) jaime cano
g2I win the roll and keep a turn 1 hand but no gitaxain or discard I also have a ponder. So I value that him not playing pierce and playing reb makes my gues on just land ponder for disrpution pass better than going for it. I ponder find nothing shufle draw a mana source and pass. He makes arid and passes. I dont play a land. and dark ritual, And make special enphasy on if the ritual resolves. He knows I like to do ritual into discard cause we play toghether. He says it resolves and my six sense says he has no counter. So I just go for nauseam and win.
g2 He senseis. I gitaxian seeing fow, blue card, balance and rip. I ponder and have no discard, He drops balance. My hand is: infernal, rof, ritual, petal, led. land. BW. I play I play the burning, he reveals and its a explisves (my empty the warren plan just go to shit, but he forces. Now he has 2 lands and plays RIP. On my turn I draw a blank. I rof and he switches top. I respond with dark ritual and activates balance and on top is a land or so. So he counters my rof and then I just go petal, led infernal crack nauseam and win.

Side:
-1 mox
-2 cabal ritual
-1 empty
-1 ponder
+3 decay
+1 tropical
+1 grapeshot (he plays 3-4 meddling on side, but im not sure if taking the ponder is the best option)



So I just win the event and is weird cause I never won with goblins all time with natural tendrills or nauseam and I also just lost one game. Was lucky that my oppoenets didnt where ridding his usualy luck horses.


After the event I played 6 games agaianst a friend with burn and whle against ANT his eidolon deck is like 50% with TES is a blowout and he dosnt believed me so we bet a drink. I just keep in mind playing like agaianst takes (belcher mode on) and Won 5/6 games all with goblins and Like therapy his eidolon or any other card then make 8-12 goboins and therapy his hand. I just lost a game where We both mull to 5 and he had 2 guiden and I empty him and was just if he draws a 3 damage spell i loose if not he looses. He draws and I loose. But g1 was preatty good and I won out a drink of him latter at dinner Yuhu! TES is just too fast for non blue decks, thats GEIL!

[Lemnear]

1) R3 G1 The first Ponder should have looked out for a Land no matter how attractive the LED and Cabal Ritual were on top of your library. Expecting to turn the game in your favor with Ponder and a Gemstone with a single counter left at the end of your second turn was greedy

2) "Geil" is a word outside of Germany??

3) congratz :D

[Asthereal]

2) "Geil" is a word outside of Germany??
In the Netherlands, geil means horny.
If we joke around with the German language, geil is an obvious choice. :tongue:

OT: Gambling on a Mine with a single counter may be a bit greedy, but the opponent doesn't play Wasteland, so it could work out. I'm not sold on either option... Chances of finding a land after a Ponder shuffle are pretty bad. Keeping two good cards is tempting.

[Togores]

1) R3 G1 The first Ponder should have looked out for a Land no matter how attractive the LED and Cabal Ritual were on top of your library. Expecting to turn the game in your favor with Ponder and a Gemstone with a single counter left at the end of your second turn was greedy

2) "Geil" is a word outside of Germany??

3) congratz :D

I looked for a land with both ponders, shuffled both times but never saw a land. Obv I look for land. But I meant that if I found the land I could just have go off with a ton of protection but I needed a second source. Sorry it was not clear I shuffled u,u

Geil is not a word outside of Germany. But I went to a German school until university more or less and I know you wuld be one of the 1st on Reading this and answering ;D

ausgetrickst ^^

[Lemnear]

In the Netherlands, geil means horny.
If we joke around with the German language, geil is an obvious choice. :tongue:

OT: Gambling on a Mine with a single counter may be a bit greedy, but the opponent doesn't play Wasteland, so it could work out. I'm not sold on either option... Chances of finding a land after a Ponder shuffle are pretty bad. Keeping two good cards is tempting.

In the german language it can either mean "Horny" or "awesome" :)

The Problem for me wouldn't be Wasteland but softcounter and Gemstone's fading counters while holding a hand of 2 disruption spells and 2 ponder plus combo parts. There is no chance he can fight through any protection with the Gemstone alone, so if you choose to keep that LED + CR on top with a DR + IT in hand, you have to be comfortable with going all-in turn 2 with DR -> CR -> LED -> IT -> AN in the face of FoW or Pierce. There is no middle ground; either you keep the Ponder and push turn 2 or you look for an U.Sea asap to Dismember your opponents defense and find more gas with the Ponder #2 and the drawstep(s).

In this case he casted Ponder #2 to see only 2 new cards (one was still left there after the first Ponder) giving his opponent another turn to draw into protection/CB.


Edit: got ninja'd. No blame here if you shuffled with Ponder #1. it was still reasonable to push T2

[Togores]

I had the mana, but going for it turn 2 with no mana up and no protection against an opponent who had mana and enought cards I dont know of them, think is crazy.
I think digging for lands was better than going off. If I would have draw a land I would have won. Even a petal was good enought. But this game I had no luck.

[ComboMan]

Hi,
(first of all, sorry about my english. I'm from Brasil=)

I don't post a lot, but i'm always following the forum... (I play with TES since it has ten rainbow lands and Tomb of Urami).Here is my list, and a little thought about why I believe this is the right approach for now:

3 infernal tutor
4 burning wish

4 bstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe

4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
4 Lion's eye diamond
3 chrome mox

1 ad nauseam
1 empty the warrens

4 cabal therapy
2 duress
2 xantid swarm (I'll explain)

4 gemstone mine
2 city of brass
2 sea
1 volcanic
3 fetch U

SB: (16 I know)

1 infernal tutor
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 thoughtseize
1 massacre
1 diminishing returns
1 I'll gotten gains
1 past in flames
1 xantid swarm
2 CoV
2 pyroblast
3 abrupt decay

Well, basically is the "old" rainbow land mana base to support the xantids main deck, and the SB. Xantids is there against taxing counters (counters in general) which is one of the points to include the cabal ritual. Besides that, if you are playing against a non blue deck, you can just flashback your therapies. Use the same strategy if your opponent have removall spell in his hand. They increases our reanimator/snt/tide/folks MUs chances. For G2 against blue decks with removal, you can chorões to board they out to let your opponent with dead cards in the deck.
The SB have 16 cards because the xantid make I'll Gotten Gains just better. Same with returns. We can cut one or another, or put the infernal back to main deck, since we will not have the cabal ritual's help to generate 9 manas. But if we bring the tutor back to the main deck, I would not know what to cut.
I like Iggy because it's fast, and can hit the table before a hatebear shows up (vs DnT), and before elves do something. I would cut the returns before Iggy, if the tutor remains in the SB. And with 2 xantids main deck, we can cut one xantid of the SB and put another CoV ( or the new bounce sorcery spell).
Even without the cabal ritual, I still like the tutor in the SB because you still can generate 9 manas, or do a wish for the tutor, a turn before the combo, as always.
With this list, the deck will keep it's velocity and explosiveness, and will keep the TES identity...

[Lemnear]

Hi,
(first of all, sorry about my english. I'm from Brasil=)

I don't post a lot, but i'm always following the forum... (I play with TES since it has ten rainbow lands and Tomb of Urami).Here is my list, and a little thought about why I believe this is the right approach for now:

3 infernal tutor
4 burning wish

4 bstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe

4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
4 Lion's eye diamond
3 chrome mox

1 ad nauseam
1 empty the warrens

4 cabal therapy
2 duress
2 xantid swarm (I'll explain)

4 gemstone mine
2 city of brass
2 sea
1 volcanic
3 fetch U

SB: (16 I know)

1 infernal tutor
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 thoughtseize
1 massacre
1 diminishing returns
1 I'll gotten gains
1 past in flames
1 xantid swarm
2 CoV
2 pyroblast
3 abrupt decay

Well, basically is the "old" rainbow land mana base to support the xantids main deck, and the SB. Xantids is there against taxing counters (counters in general) which is one of the points to include the cabal ritual. Besides that, if you are playing against a non blue deck, you can just flashback your therapies. Use the same strategy if your opponent have removall spell in his hand. They increases our reanimator/snt/tide/folks MUs chances. For G2 against blue decks with removal, you can chorões to board they out to let your opponent with dead cards in the deck.
The SB have 16 cards because the xantid make I'll Gotten Gains just better. Same with returns. We can cut one or another, or put the infernal back to main deck, since we will not have the cabal ritual's help to generate 9 manas. But if we bring the tutor back to the main deck, I would not know what to cut.
I like Iggy because it's fast, and can hit the table before a hatebear shows up (vs DnT), and before elves do something. I would cut the returns before Iggy, if the tutor remains in the SB. And with 2 xantids main deck, we can cut one xantid of the SB and put another CoV ( or the new bounce sorcery spell).
Even without the cabal ritual, I still like the tutor in the SB because you still can generate 9 manas, or do a wish for the tutor, a turn before the combo, as always.
With this list, the deck will keep it's velocity and explosiveness, and will keep the TES identity...


While Xantid and Cabal Ritual are both valid options against taxing counters, the Insect has absolutely no synergy with Past in Flames, doesn't fuel the Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam path nor helps if your hand is under pressure of opposing discard. I feel that you not only weakend your manabase, but also limited the decks pliability to handle certain situations.

IGGY is pointless in todays heavy blue metagame and with DRS/RIP everywhere. Also 2 graveyard engines are a bit redundant

[Pelikanudo]

Hi all, I'd like to share this success with you.

I played TES at a Capital league 40-80 people tournament, this time few people came, and got top 8 and lost next in the 1st round, but yeah got it! finally top 8 with TES, (done also with DDFT and TNT) by here this tournament is the one that has most reputation, made 5-1 loosing only vs merfolks - winning 1st game but on 3rd he had a hand with 3 FoW and vial, didn't draw therapy, LoL!

Well
related to the match ups I won I want to focus on 3 mainly,
I didnt face any miracles and I really wanted..., snif...

- One was vs U/W blade, it was 2-0, both hands from my opponent contained FoW Pierce and counterspell and other flavours but its just discarding FoW or Fluster and just use your mind tricks to win via natural tendrils or whatever other thing, in here I have to say that C.Mox is not as bad as it may seems, as provided in the case of need more storm withouth requirements

- One was Shardless BUG, well in here keeping brainstorm as much as I could was key to avoid vendilion, I reached a scenario in which he supposed to have soft counter, me 2 threats, mana, spells and b.s. and he plays vendilion EoT, I just kept both threats on top, but he could have countered b.s. - he didnt, so whatever the 2 options he had chosen he wold have lost any way as he had no other hard counter and the threats were 1B.W., 1 I.T. all you need vs Vendilion is B.S., again nothing new. Togores paisano! you saw this second game and you say you had taken other direction, I would have done this as Lem says every day of the week! playing ponder having b.s. vs Shardless BUG on first turn is not the best thing you can do...

- One was vs my Storm neighbour Togores, Rebancha!!!, he won the first game with an incredibly luck 1st turn win playing plain and shitty ANT. who dares! again he was going to frustrate my plan to top8 - last time he did!
* second I start, lot of gobs won me the game
* well this 3rd game - and togores should agree was an absolute demonstation why TES and ANT are 2 Diff decks.
. He plays land Therapy and names logically LED
. I had a hand of: Gemstone, B.W., I.T, C.M, C.M., D.R. and Ad Nauseam of course. -> Top 8., I have to recognize in here that the result of having -1C.M+1C.R. is the same. anyway.

Related to the match ups I lost just was like shit happens

- a hand of 3 FoW, Vial, cursecatcher and next he drew Pierce and cursecatcher even and me not drawing Therapy..., any way I didnt have Xantid in my side, only 2 pyros and 1 extra discard effect, so I sided like -1EtW+1Discard and maybe I should have left EtW... for next time I'll leave EtW, just theye 're great and the unique thing is that you need more gobs. so the unique plan would be maybe -1Duress +1T.Seize, what would you have done?, anyway I always win Merfolk... again C.M. in here shines.

- The other BUG tempo player, the 1st game I won , was a great game, always with 1 land playing very nicely and measuring the cantrips, duress etc, perfectly. I would not have done this withouth C.M. I'm TFM.
the 2nd and 3rd match up were dictated by null rod, in both match ups he drew it! and he next cofessed he only plays 1 in side!!, the 3r was close as I decided to take out hymn and as I have enough things to make storm and kill not depending from artifact I prefer discarding hymn., in here maybe i chose bad, I still dont think so, but he also had FoW back up, and I had another discard, so the idea was to drew 1 more mana and win. this did not occur in the next 3 turns. he had no counter and null rod only affected my c.m.
I think I only sided -1Ponder+1tropical, prefer keeping 3 duress, he played also G.Charm, dont mind 2 only. I maybe would have prefer to add also other discard effect instead of C.M. dont know...

Some notes:
- I will stick on 3 C.M. 4 I.T.
- really didnt need Xantids, I just opted to put up the number of discard.
- didnt use Diminisihng, but this time there werent Jund
- didnt use bribery, hoever the day before I played vs a renimator and the 2 games I won was exactly because of bribery, so will keep it.
- the unique match up I think C.Ritual would have shined could be maybe Shardless BUG, but the fact that Deathrite was a first turn contender all the time, I dont think it would have been relevant.
- vs Tempo BUG really was bad luck but I feel that c.r. was also inneffective in here. I didnt have more than 1 land all the time.
- EtW is great.

the deck I played is:
will appear in TC Decks soon:

2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Gemstone Mine

4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

sideboard
1 T.Seize
1 IoK
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Bribery
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Pyroblast
1 PiF

Some notes about the deck:

- I sometimes just do -1EtW+1Discard, but I'm thinking in just put +1CoV, when the release of the Vapor Snage maybe the IoK will be that slot, but not sure, I'm not really finding any need of CoV at all lately, I have 3 different paths of victory, I won also to a boy playing a Post Deck borrowing a Titan, he had no Emrakul or likes!!!!
- before I played 2Duress 1T.Seize base, but sometimes is just not as good in the late game to use T.Seize, 13 to 11 lifes as example, maybe i put 1 back from side plus 2 pyro to handle m.m, again not to handle Vendilion. also vs Tempo strategies I just prefer duress ove t.seize also for the life lose...
- still with not less than 3 A.D vs miracles, didnt face any, but just was luck.
- EDIT: I will likely back to +1Duress OR +1T.Seize -1IoK, opinions?, what is better vs BUG Tempo? do you side in T.Seize?I prefer to not to have it as the chances of drawing it and start are less and anyway you still prefer to take out FoW than Delver.

[Togores]

Congrats on result!
We had to play and still topped. I know this time was yours. But next turnament I gonna be the winner again!

[kavaki]

Am I wrong in thinking that the currently biggest difference between TES and ANT is that we run B.W., whereas they dont?

[Lemnear]

Am I wrong in thinking that the currently biggest difference between TES and ANT is that we run B.W., whereas they dont?

Yes, you are wrong here

[sawatarix]

The biggest difference is that Ant uses powerful cards,Tes doesn't :D

[kavaki]

Yes, you are wrong here

Fine then, what currently really is the difference in composition?

[Hopo]

Fine then, what currently really is the difference in composition?

A quick glance at both primers should give you some ideas. It actually should be the first thing to do before you even ask the question.

[Lemnear]

The biggest difference is that Ant uses powerful cards,Tes doesn't :D

You mean like ANT's very first slots to board out, Preordain? ;)


Fine then, what currently really is the difference in composition?


A quick glance at both primers should give you some ideas. It actually should be the first thing to do before you even ask the question.

Well, the primer gives you an idea as the decklist with the Moxen + Wishes + RoF double red mana, anyone?) should too, that's why I kept my response short. Personally, I just reached a point at which I refuse to point out stuff which is repeatingly asked and answered within this thread (for years now) while the questions should be easily answerable by reading the OP and browsing the thread which repeats itself like every 10 pages. I'll gladly assist by answering questions which aren't discussed to death within the thread, aren't integral part of the primer ("Why to play the EPIC Storm over other storm variants") or show a lack of basic understanding ("why play RoF over Cabal Ritual?", "Why play the whole set of Therapies? Duress doesn't need you to guess!", "Why Rainbow lands over more duals/Fetches?", "Why running Chrome Moxen over more lands?", "can I board out Probes because they aren't doing much?", etc.).

Edit: This post is not intended to come off as rude or disrespectful. Blame my personality for the tone. I'm just a bit stressed by work and private issues atm on top of my general annoyance of threads and topics repeating themselves

[kavaki]

A quick glance at both primers should give you some ideas. It actually should be the first thing to do before you even ask the question.

Honey will attract more people, Vinegar will trap more bugs. You are what you project.


You mean like ANT's very first slots to board out, Preordain? ;)





Well, the primer gives you an idea as the decklist with the Moxen + Wishes + RoF double red mana, anyone?) should too, that's why I kept my response short. Personally, I just reached a point at which I refuse to point out stuff which is repeatingly asked and answered within this thread (for years now) while the questions should be easily answerable by reading the OP and browsing the thread which repeats itself like every 10 pages. I'll gladly assist by answering questions which aren't discussed to death within the thread, aren't integral part of the primer ("Why to play the EPIC Storm over other storm variants") or show a lack of basic understanding ("why play RoF over Cabal Ritual?", "Why play the whole set of Therapies? Duress doesn't need you to guess!", "Why Rainbow lands over more duals/Fetches?", "Why running Chrome Moxen over more lands?", "can I board out Probes because they aren't doing much?", etc.).

Edit: This post is not intended to come off as rude or disrespectful. Blame my personality for the tone. I'm just a bit stressed by work and private issues atm on top of my general annoyance of threads and topics repeating themselves

Looking at the primers, neither really goes in depth about the exact differences. Looking elsewhere, it looks like this is a faster deck, but also a little bit more "manabase fragile" as no basics are ran.

[Asthereal]

Looking at the primers, neither really goes in depth about the exact differences. Looking elsewhere, it looks like this is a faster deck, but also a little bit more "manabase fragile" as no basics are ran.
It's pretty simple:

TES want to win as soon as possible, so it runs the cheaper accelleration in a full set of Rite of Flame and several copies of Chrome Mox, next to a higher number of "business spells" with 3-4 Burning Wish. This means the deck can go off sooner, needing less cantrips to sculp a good hand, but it does usually require both red and black mana to go off, next to blue mana for cantrips, so it stretches its mana base a bit more. Hence the rainbow lands and no basics. TES relies on fast Empty the Warrens and Ad Nauseam wins. Past in Flames, natural spell chain and Diminishing Returns are alternative plans.

Pro's: faster, so better matchup against hate that lands turn 2+
Con's: weaker mana base, so vulnerable to mana denial combined with other hate

ANT on the other hand favours inevitability. It uses basics to secure its mana base, and it uses the slower but more powerful Cabal Ritual as accelleration instead of the faster but less powerful Rite of Flame. ANT relies on slow but sure Past in Flames or natural spell chain wins. Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens are alternative plans. ANT does not typically play Diminishing Returns-like cards.

Pro's: in general the more stable deck with better mana base and focus on the sure win
Con's: slower, sometimes has trouble finding a business spell

The latest innovations in TES done by its creator Bryant Cook have moved the deck more in the direction of ANT: less rainbow lands, a discard only protection package instead of Silence effects and the addition of two copies of Cabal Ritual, dropping a Chrome Mox and moving one Infernal Tutor to the side. Not everyone here agrees with this innovation though. Some feel that one should just play ANT instead. So I can imagine people having more and more difficulty to determine the difference between the two, but usually the presence/absence of Rite of Flame gives it away. :wink:

[kavaki]

The latest innovations in TES done by its creator Bryant Cook have moved the deck more in the direction of ANT: less rainbow lands, a discard only protection package instead of Silence effects and the addition of two copies of Cabal Ritual, dropping a Chrome Mox and moving one Infernal Tutor to the side. Not everyone here agrees with this innovation though. Some feel that one should just play ANT instead. So I can imagine people having more and more difficulty to determine the difference between the two, but usually the presence/absence of Rite of Flame gives it away. :wink:

Its this point that I was really trying to ask about, I just suck at phrasing things. Its also weird in that, in my local meta is a player who runs UBR ANT and runs Rite, but not the rainbow manabase. I was more so trying to see where the "modern' TES is in relation to where ANT is, and this post really helped me.

[Lemnear]

Asthereal is the guy in this thread with a buddhas calm, explaining all the stuff i am too annoyed to do anymore. I guess i owe him a beer or two for all the work he does in the thread. Hit me on that

[Bryant Cook]

The latest innovations in TES done by its creator Bryant Cook have moved the deck more in the direction of ANT: less rainbow lands, a discard only protection package instead of Silence effects and the addition of two copies of Cabal Ritual, dropping a Chrome Mox and moving one Infernal Tutor to the side. Not everyone here agrees with this innovation though. Some feel that one should just play ANT instead. So I can imagine people having more and more difficulty to determine the difference between the two, but usually the presence/absence of Rite of Flame gives it away. :wink:

I'm looking for the perfect storm deck, ANT isn't it, neither were the former TES lists. I play to win and I want to run the most optimal 75 I can. People don't need to run my lists, but I'm going to play whatever cards give me the best odds of taking home more money.

[Elfkid]

I'm looking for the perfect storm deck, ANT isn't it, neither were the former TES lists. I play to win and I want to run the most optimal 75 I can. People don't need to run my lists, but I'm going to play whatever cards give me the best odds of taking home more money.

Amen

[Pelikanudo]

I'm looking for the perfect storm deck, ANT isn't it, neither were the former TES lists. I play to win and I want to run the most optimal 75 I can. People don't need to run my lists, but I'm going to play whatever cards give me the best odds of taking home more money.

play mine then.

EDIT: I've been sometime ago I also started to evaluate also adding C.Ritual to the list for the unique reason which is to play a total of 6 +3mana effects, for sure the first card that came to my mind was C.Mox. but I was very confused about the other slot. only 1 C.R.? Sure I didnt want to take out I.T., EtW neither, so could be a Discard or B.Wish, I'm not advocated to take out B.W., I recognice in TNT I play 3 and I really dont want to draw more than 1. So it seems to me more logic to just play full threats and reduce the number of discard effects. you'd better do B.Wish to discard if needed than B.Wish to I.T. to A.N.

So what I propose is to -1Duress+1I.T to the list and addig D.Returns and maybe Bribery to side, as an idea.

[sawatarix]

I would run 6 discard instead of 7 because burning wish represents a discard spell - don't forget about that.

So infernal tutor would be a playset again in the main,2 chrome mox and 12 lands that's how i would play the deck.

[Pelikanudo]

I would run 6 discard instead of 7 because burning wish represents a discard spell - don't forget about that.

So infernal tutor would be a playset again in the main,2 chrome mox and 12 lands that's how i would play the deck.
I hope we reach the perfect storm list...
let me propose a side for this:

sideboard
2 T.Seize/Duress
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Bribery
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Pyroblast
1 PiF

I dont expect to face Leyline, anyway its always winnable with EtW, by here S&T doesnt run Leyline, so xantids are not as ok, reanimator is ok adding even more discard, just potentiating that strategy, I just would add the 2 T.Seize instead ponder and EtW.I alsoprefer T.Seize vs miracles or control in general, not vs tempo. so maybe a Split would be ideal.

[Lemnear]

I would run 6 discard instead of 7 because burning wish represents a discard spell - don't forget about that.

So infernal tutor would be a playset again in the main,2 chrome mox and 12 lands that's how i would play the deck.

I support 6 discard slots because of the Wishes, so there are basically already 10 discard spells in the maindeck. However, I strongly dislike reducing initial mana sources because this has negative consequences for starting grips (including mulligans) and against manadenial like Wasteland/Daze

[Bryant Cook]

I don't understand everyone's desire to shove the Infernal into the main deck, we're essentially preboarded at this point without running a shitty card like Diminishing Returns.

[Togores]

I have tested a quite and love the infernal in the side. Now our fast naseams are lees usual, but in a mid game there is hight change of bw nausseam.

[Lemnear]

I have tested a quite and love the infernal in the side. Now our fast naseams are lees usual, but in a mid game there is hight change of bw nausseam.

It all depends if your metagame fits for "midgame Ad Nauseams off Wish" or if your expected field favors the T1/2 burst. There is a bit too much talk in absolutes for my taste for the simple question of preboarding IT or not.

For me the SB is a much more dynamic topic and I am a bit irritated that no one showed interrest in the fact that Pyroblasts left the 75 recently, for example.

[Niggurath]

[...]
For me the SB is a much more dynamic topic and I am a bit irritated that no one showed interrest in the fact that Pyroblasts left the 75 recently, for example.

IMO, although I like Pyroblast a lot, I feel it underperformed in TES against Miracle. I couldn't counter a landing counterbalance against Miracles because mine was countered. Next turn, I draw Pyroblast, try to destroy CB but it shows a land, and then my opponent counters Pyro again.

I think it's better to run Decay against Miracles, because you'll be sure it won't be countered. A 3-off seems a lot, but I haven't tested it yet. Not sure if Pyroblast was cool against Delver decks, maybe just playing discard spells it's just fine.

[Togores]

I play 3 decay 3 xantid.
I also dont like pyro, I just like it to destroy meddling or delver. But u can also side in massacre or grapeshot.
And usualy vs show and tell they also have a counterbackup for the show or u can show in a xantid and also win next turn.

I play this 3-3 usualy, but in a non show and tell, reanimator usw envoirment I would cut a xantid for a random pyro. when I sided usualy I prefered to destroy balance with uncounterable form or just side in 1 pyro because cutting cards like ponder is akward.

[Lemnear]

IMO, although I like Pyroblast a lot, I feel it underperformed in TES against Miracle. I couldn't counter a landing counterbalance against Miracles because mine was countered. Next turn, I draw Pyroblast, try to destroy CB but it shows a land, and then my opponent counters Pyro again.

I think it's better to run Decay against Miracles, because you'll be sure it won't be countered. A 3-off seems a lot, but I haven't tested it yet. Not sure if Pyroblast was cool against Delver decks, maybe just playing discard spells it's just fine.

In other words, you dislike Pyroblast because your opponent can open the nuts of turn 2 Counterbalance/S&T plus FoW backup? With that standard set, you'll have to cut Xantids as well. It's not that Pyroblast was run to destroy Counterbalance but for it's flexibility in other matchups and it's strange to messure it soley on it's application against Counterbalance and not even on it's usefullness vs. upkeep Cliques, Brainstorms or boarded Meddling Mages.

For my personal taste we have a bit too much specific hate in the board which has next to no application against other decks and that includes the mentioned Decay and Xantid, which are also the only cards we need a 4th color for. Maybe the Hive Mind can come up with something I have not thought off to add it to my testing board

[Bryant Cook]

In other words, you dislike Pyroblast because your opponent can open the nuts of turn 2 Counterbalance/S&T plus FoW backup? With that standard set, you'll have to cut Xantids as well. It's not that Pyroblast was run to destroy Counterbalance but for it's flexibility in other matchups and it's strange to messure it soley on it's application against Counterbalance and not even on it's usefullness vs. upkeep Cliques, Brainstorms or boarded Meddling Mages.

For my personal taste we have a bit too much specific hate in the board which has next to no application against other decks and that includes the mentioned Decay and Xantid, which are also the only cards we need a 4th color for. Maybe the Hive Mind can come up with something I have not thought off to add it to my testing board

I think Pyroblast is fine, although, with an uprising in Eidolon of the Great Revel, I'd like an extra bounce effect. As crappy as it is, we can side in Tendrils of Agony or Grapeshot as a way to play around Mage. I understand that it's not all encompassing, but there's trade offs in playing a Wish board.

[Rafael Benedetti]

I don't understand everyone's desire to shove the Infernal into the main deck, we're essentially preboarded at this point without running a shitty card like Diminishing Returns.

Since I started play with TES, I always played with IT in side board, one day I played with 4 tutors in main deck and I lost 2 games where I could play BW-IT-AN and I dont had the IT in side... I don´t understand too, and diminishing I never liked, is one card that you almost never use and it's not sure it will work.

[sawatarix]

i wouldn't even consider dim ret in a deck without chant effects.
sure we waste a sideboard slot to have a 'good' card verus decks like jund and friends but those are already good matchups so there is no need to improve them.

xantid swarm should be back in the sideboard again, discard on its own doesn't clear the way against miracle control.
alongside abrupt decay , xantid swarm is the perfect tool to beat miracles in my opinion.

[Lemnear]

i wouldn't even consider dim ret in a deck without chant effects.
sure we waste a sideboard slot to have a 'good' card verus decks like jund and friends but those are already good matchups so there is no need to improve them.

xantid swarm should be back in the sideboard again, discard on its own doesn't clear the way against miracle control.
alongside abrupt decay , xantid swarm is the perfect tool to beat miracles in my opinion.

Because Miracles isn't playing cards like Meddling Mage, Counterbalance, StoP, Vendilion Clique ... what? They do? Xantid Swarm is total crap against Miracles.

[wonderPreaux]

One thing worth noting is that on the draw Xantid Swarm can come down, dodging Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm, and provide you with an angle against Miracles if you have to play a longer game. Though, I don't think that compensates for the fact that Miracles keeps removal in, not only for Goblin all-ins that are possible from TES, but also for Xantid Swarm/Dark Confidant.

[Lemnear]

One thing worth noting is that on the draw Xantid Swarm can come down, dodging Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm, and provide you with an angle against Miracles if you have to play a longer game. Though, I don't think that compensates for the fact that Miracles keeps removal in, not only for Goblin all-ins that are possible from TES, but also for Xantid Swarm/Dark Confidant.

Have you counted the numbers of Pierces and Flusterstorms compared with Cliques, Counterspells, FoW, Counterbalance, Cliques, Medding Mages, etc.? The longer the game goes, the worse it gets for you

[paeng4983]

RE: Xantid SB vs. Miracle

If your opponent hasn’t landed yet his CounterTOP duo, then sure enough this bug is a great help. But if he managed to resolve his defensive duo, or just the enchantment alone, hitting a 1cc or 2cc off the top of his library could spell disaster for you.

[wonderPreaux]

Have you counted the numbers of Pierces and Flusterstorms compared with Cliques, Counterspells, FoW, Counterbalance, Cliques, Medding Mages, etc.? The longer the game goes, the worse it gets for you

I wasnt saying Xantid makes the long game winnable, i was noting a situation where its probably at its best. On the draw, its an aggressive threat that skirts a few common counters and can lead into you doing some other stuff later.

[Lemnear]

I wasnt saying Xantid makes the long game winnable, i was noting a situation where its probably at its best. On the draw, its an aggressive threat that skirts a few common counters and can lead into you doing some other stuff later.

It's a wasted handcard and a wasted mana spend aside the fact that you need green mana first and it still can be FoW'd, StoP'd, etc. in addition to the beforementioned Meddling Mage, Counterbalance, Clique, etc.

I'm rarely interrested in best-case-scenarios if I board for games 2 & 3 but solid choices and tbh I cannot see which cards in the MB are bad enough to switch 'em for Xantids and the rare chance to totally screw an opposing Miracle pilot keeping a hand of Pierce, Flusterstorm and SCM but nothing else. What way would you guys board if you want to squeeze in Xantids? That would be very interresting...

[sawatarix]

I would cut these 2 cabal rituald ,1 chrome mox and 3 discad spells to bring in 3 decay + 3 xantid swarm.

The deck becomes less explosive without the chrome mox but that's fine if you get additional protection.
If the miracle-opponent still has swords to plowshares in the deck postboard just board out swarm in g3 and switch back to discard.

[Lemnear]

I would cut these 2 cabal rituald ,1 chrome mox and 3 discad spells to bring in 3 decay + 3 xantid swarm.

The deck becomes less explosive without the chrome mox but that's fine if you get additional protection.
If the miracle-opponent still has swords to plowshares in the deck postboard just board out swarm in g3 and switch back to discard.

You don't think that running Cabal Ritual for long and grindy matchups is a bit wierd if you want to board it out against Miracles? Who runs 3 Xantids in the first place? You forgot boarding the Tropical island btw ;)

[Bryant Cook]

You don't think that running Cabal Ritual for long and grindy matchups is a bit wierd if you want to board it out against Miracles? Who runs 3 Xantids in the first place? You forgot boarding the Tropical island btw ;)

Miracles tends to side in Rest in Peace. Just sayin'.

[Togores]

boarding xantis in ANT or TES vs stp or bolt oppoents is crap. 95% of the time they just kill it and win 2 cards with it (not having his dead card + your card).

Also I usualy side vs miracles +1 tropical +3 decay -1 empty -1 mox -2 ponder/cabal ritual. That has work fine now, beating last week 2 best miracle players in my cuntry.

U can take out cabal or ponder if they side in RIP depends on what they play: A more reb side? side ponder out, a more RIP side? then cabal is your card of choice.


Also Lem I dont think miracles has 2 diferent cards called clicke :P JK

I also do side 3 xantid, I like the card vs blue combo and al already stated I dont like the pyroblasts.

[Togores]

Yesterday I played TES at locals. 4 rounds and so. My main was 2 cabal ritual, 3 mox, no tropical md and in side 3 decay 3 xantid (got them foil yesterday) and no pyroblast.

R1 vs affinity. 2-0
g1 he mulls stats with signal pest turn 1 and 2 but has a slow hand I just Nauseam him
g2 he mulls again his hand of canonist + tomb + no more mana and gets a 6er thats not good. I just slam a ton of gobins and win.

Sided in chain of vapor and decay for both duress. May be I should have sided the decays, but saw the matchup like DNT.

R2 dragon stompy 0-2
g1 keep a 7 hand on the draw with lots of mana and 2 lands. then draw 4 lands straigt while he trinispheres me turn 2 and so.
g2 On the play this is my hand: GP, GP, delta, gemstone, DR, RoF, cabal ritual.Would you keep this? I draw more mana from both gitaxian. And he slams revoker turn 1 chalice on 0. And then chalice on 1 turn 2 and trinisphere turn 3.

I sided g2 so:
+ inf
+ trop
+3 decay
+ seize
-4 therapy
-2 ponder

opinion? Latter i thought that this was not good enought. Also he sided in 4 ratched bomb 3 earthquake that only afects the color of your choice.

-cabal
-etw
+inf
+ts

thoughts on this?


R3 burn
g1 I just put a ton of goblins and race him.
g2 I have 3 leds and mana. But no bussines. When im at 9 I draw infernal and go for it, but when i crack led he makes bolt, fireblast+fork and im dead.
g3 Was one of the best games I have had with the deck.Whem im ready to drop on my turn 10000 goblins he draw and plays a card that every time my creature atacks it deals one dmg to itseld or to me. I dont remeber but I was unable to goblin. So we play a bit more and this is my situation:
opp 3 lands, skullcrack and fireblast. on table simian spirit guide, and satir that makes 1 damage to a creature i own when i get burned and no mana up.
I have:
12 lives, 2 lands, rof,DR, DR, Cabal ritual, Led and burning. I also have sided in the infernal from the side.
my graveyard is: gP,therapy, gp, Delta, Bs, ponder.
I go like this: play the rituals and have much mana. burning for pif, pif resolves crack led for blue, probe for lives and draw mox, probe for lives and draw mox, ponder and see therapy, tutor and cabal ritual. draw the infernal, braisntorm draw the cabal ritual, the therapy and a duress. put mox and therapy back. Make mox with duress then cabal ritual and infernal. I dont have red mana or way to get to it, no more cantrips in grave. just a lot of black mana and a infernal on the stack. Get led, crack for red. play all the rituals back. flashback of pif. now cast the other new infernal and sarch for bruning, cast the discard spell of my grave and grapeshot him for 22 his simian for 2 and satir for 1.
GG

yess! op win never flashed back the pif and never killed with grapeshot without having nauseamed before.


R4 vs a modern merfolks.
g1 he makes nothing I win
g2 he makes nothing I win.


Dragon stompy guy won and I got second. So good evening alltogether.

[Dice_Box]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69800

11th is not too bad. That sideboard though, seams a touch light on cards.

[Togores]

2 chain of vapor and 2 xantid should be the answer ^^

[LDX]

Does anyone know if Bryant played any featured match in his 11th place? I wish I could actually learn the deck by seeing him play an updated list.

[Bryant Cook]

Does anyone know if Bryant played any featured match in his 11th place? I wish I could actually learn the deck by seeing him play an updated list.

I did not, also the full list is in the opening post. Here were my match-ups on the day:

1-2 Belcher
2-1 BUG Delver
2-1 Merfolk (Main deck Chalice of the Void)
2-0 Miracles
0-2 Belcher
2-1 Elves
2-0 Death & Taxes
2-0 ANT
2-0 Elves

[anakyn]

I did not, also the full list is in the opening post. Here were my match-ups on the day:

1-2 Belcher
2-1 BUG Delver
2-1 Merfolk (Main deck Chalice of the Void)
2-0 Miracles
0-2 Belcher
2-1 Elves
2-0 Death & Taxes
2-0 ANT
2-0 Elves


Congratulations :cool:
Seems like you won every hard matchup (BUG, Miracle) and lost to the only deck which is faster than TES (Belcher).

Do you plan to write a report?

[sawatarix]

great,was there any goblin fight between you and your belcher-opponents?

[Boghald]

Hi there!

Despite I'm new here, I've been playing TES for some years. I don't know if you have seen the m15 spoiler, but there's a card that seems interesting. I'm going to test it, but I'm looking forward to hear your opinions. What do you think about Act on Impulse?

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/actonimpulse.html

It could be a little storm engine if we play Brainstorm or Ponder to put on the top a tutor and LED, Dark Ritual,... I'll run 1 in sb and then I'll tell you how it's going.

Regards.

[Bryant Cook]

Congratulations :cool:
Seems like you won every hard matchup (BUG, Miracle) and lost to the only deck which is faster than TES (Belcher).

Do you plan to write a report?

I don't plan on it.


great,was there any goblin fight between you and your belcher-opponents?

Sadly, there wasn't, mostly be just getting Belch'd in the face on turn one a lot. I wish I was half as lucky as the two that beat me (They had some disgusting top decks).

[Jay_Gatz]

Hi there!

Despite I'm new here, I've been playing TES for some years. I don't know if you have seen the m15 spoiler, but there's a card that seems interesting. I'm going to test it, but I'm looking forward to hear your opinions. What do you think about Act on Impulse?

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/actonimpulse.html

It could be a little storm engine if we play Brainstorm or Ponder to put on the top a tutor and LED, Dark Ritual,... I'll run 1 in sb and then I'll tell you how it's going.

Regards.

If you want to play a 3 mana draw spell you might as well play cruel bargain/infernal contract.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lemnear]

Hi there!

Despite I'm new here, I've been playing TES for some years. I don't know if you have seen the m15 spoiler, but there's a card that seems interesting. I'm going to test it, but I'm looking forward to hear your opinions. What do you think about Act on Impulse?

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/actonimpulse.html

It could be a little storm engine if we play Brainstorm or Ponder to put on the top a tutor and LED, Dark Ritual,... I'll run 1 in sb and then I'll tell you how it's going.

Regards.

Infernal Contract, Meditate or Ideas Unbound are miles better than Act on Impulse. If you are seriously want an engine to build around Brainstorm + Wish, you need to look at Reforge the Souls. In rhe end, none of those is worth a slot

[Bryant Cook]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69800

11th is not too bad. That sideboard though, seams a touch light on cards.

Seems that it's been corrected.

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant:

Good job Bryant!

I'd like to ask:

a) how did you side vs Miracles? maybe: -1C.M.,-2C.R.,-1Ponder,-1EtW=+3A.Decay+1Tropical+1Grapeshot?
b) how did you side vs BUG Tempo? maybe -1Duress=+1T.Seize?
c) did you encounter any scenario in which you needed to use A.Decay vs c.b. or Senseis in order to win in 2nd match up vs Miracles?
d) How usefull was C.R. vs BUG Tempo?
e) it seems that you netiher have any issue vs D&T in 1st game, seems that C.R. instead of I.T and C.M wasnt taking out speed... how C.R. was in here if you drew it? that match up was one reason to leave c.m. and i.t. main... I would like to know how the games were develped in here... sure CoV will come in but Im more inclined that maybe the MAssacre route was used in some game maybe... playing 3 c.m. and 4th i.t. I even encountered sometimes problems vs D&T...

Thanks!

[wonderPreaux]

Hey guys, just wanted to get some input on some general strategy questions:

Against an unknown opponent, if you have the choice between cantripping and playing a discard spell, which do you lead with? Now, this is under the assumption that this is a hand where its unlikely you can just cantrip into a t1 combo, the cantrip would be setting up for the next turn(s). It's also assuming no Gitaxian Probes, obviously, I suppose you could just compare Duress vs Ponder, for simplicity. Against a combo deck, like Tin Fins or Belcher, I hate when they just go off on their turn when I had the opportunity to Duress them, but on the other side I could see how blowing a discard spell early against a control deck like Stoneblade may be bad value.

The other point of discussion I wanted to mention was Mindbreak Trap. Now, I don't actually like the card, I think it's pretty bad in a lot of the decks that sb it, but I've been running into it a lot on MTGO and wanted to know if I'm going about playing around it the right way. I'm of the opinion that if I can scout or discard the Mindbreak Trap, then fine, great for me. However, I think it makes sense to just try for the fastest combo as possible anyway, Trap or not, because Thalia/Eidolon/Thoughtseize are all regular and guaranteed threats, whereas Mindbreak Trap might not even be in their sb. Sorta like the OP mentions going in against a possible FoW that an opponent might have, the odds are in my favor to just go for it and waiting just lets all their fairer cards catch up to me.

Sadly, I've lost my last few matches against Elves/Goblins because I magically lose the ability to find discard spells when they board in Traps, but thats neither here nor there. I'd appreciate some feedback on these scenarios.

[davelin]

Hey guys, just wanted to get some input on some general strategy questions:

Against an unknown opponent, if you have the choice between cantripping and playing a discard spell, which do you lead with? Now, this is under the assumption that this is a hand where its unlikely you can just cantrip into a t1 combo, the cantrip would be setting up for the next turn(s). It's also assuming no Gitaxian Probes, obviously, I suppose you could just compare Duress vs Ponder, for simplicity. Against a combo deck, like Tin Fins or Belcher, I hate when they just go off on their turn when I had the opportunity to Duress them, but on the other side I could see how blowing a discard spell early against a control deck like Stoneblade may be bad value.

The other point of discussion I wanted to mention was Mindbreak Trap. Now, I don't actually like the card, I think it's pretty bad in a lot of the decks that sb it, but I've been running into it a lot on MTGO and wanted to know if I'm going about playing around it the right way. I'm of the opinion that if I can scout or discard the Mindbreak Trap, then fine, great for me. However, I think it makes sense to just try for the fastest combo as possible anyway, Trap or not, because Thalia/Eidolon/Thoughtseize are all regular and guaranteed threats, whereas Mindbreak Trap might not even be in their sb. Sorta like the OP mentions going in against a possible FoW that an opponent might have, the odds are in my favor to just go for it and waiting just lets all their fairer cards catch up to me.

Sadly, I've lost my last few matches against Elves/Goblins because I magically lose the ability to find discard spells when they board in Traps, but thats neither here nor there. I'd appreciate some feedback on these scenarios.

Unless you're trying to discard hate (Chalice, etc.) then you typically want to cast your discard as close to your combo turn as possible in order to remove the chance they have a counter waiting for you when you go off.

[Lemnear]

Hey guys, just wanted to get some input on some general strategy questions:

Against an unknown opponent, if you have the choice between cantripping and playing a discard spell, which do you lead with? Now, this is under the assumption that this is a hand where its unlikely you can just cantrip into a t1 combo, the cantrip would be setting up for the next turn(s). It's also assuming no Gitaxian Probes, obviously, I suppose you could just compare Duress vs Ponder, for simplicity. Against a combo deck, like Tin Fins or Belcher, I hate when they just go off on their turn when I had the opportunity to Duress them, but on the other side I could see how blowing a discard spell early against a control deck like Stoneblade may be bad value.

The other point of discussion I wanted to mention was Mindbreak Trap. Now, I don't actually like the card, I think it's pretty bad in a lot of the decks that sb it, but I've been running into it a lot on MTGO and wanted to know if I'm going about playing around it the right way. I'm of the opinion that if I can scout or discard the Mindbreak Trap, then fine, great for me. However, I think it makes sense to just try for the fastest combo as possible anyway, Trap or not, because Thalia/Eidolon/Thoughtseize are all regular and guaranteed threats, whereas Mindbreak Trap might not even be in their sb. Sorta like the OP mentions going in against a possible FoW that an opponent might have, the odds are in my favor to just go for it and waiting just lets all their fairer cards catch up to me.

Sadly, I've lost my last few matches against Elves/Goblins because I magically lose the ability to find discard spells when they board in Traps, but thats neither here nor there. I'd appreciate some feedback on these scenarios.

Unless you are playing in Berlin where you know that 1/3 of the players are on storm and another 1/3 pilot Miracles, you'd cast turn 1 Ponder on the play 100% of the time. On the draw this is a whole different Story as your opponent gave you already free information by his/her play so you can decide if it's wise to cast a Duress or make an educated Therapy guess. The rule of thumb remains to cast your discard close to your combo turn against control.

Mindbreak Trap is absolutely no threat if it comes alone. TES' usual problem appears if MBT is paired with another angle of disruption like hatebears (like in D&T) or discard (Elves 4 example). In that scenarios the probability that your opponent holds a MBT is far less than having a Hatebear and if you can try to win before a Thalia, Canonist or whatever comes down, do it. MBT is a card I usually blind-call with Therapy against non-blue decks (sans MUD) if I have the Chance/time/mana/go for goblins.

[paeng4983]

Hey guys, just wanted to get some input on some general strategy questions:

Against an unknown opponent, if you have the choice between cantripping and playing a discard spell, which do you lead with? Now, this is under the assumption that this is a hand where its unlikely you can just cantrip into a t1 combo, the cantrip would be setting up for the next turn(s). It's also assuming no Gitaxian Probes, obviously, I suppose you could just compare Duress vs Ponder, for simplicity. Against a combo deck, like Tin Fins or Belcher, I hate when they just go off on their turn when I had the opportunity to Duress them, but on the other side I could see how blowing a discard spell early against a control deck like Stoneblade may be bad value.

The other point of discussion I wanted to mention was Mindbreak Trap. Now, I don't actually like the card, I think it's pretty bad in a lot of the decks that sb it, but I've been running into it a lot on MTGO and wanted to know if I'm going about playing around it the right way. I'm of the opinion that if I can scout or discard the Mindbreak Trap, then fine, great for me. However, I think it makes sense to just try for the fastest combo as possible anyway, Trap or not, because Thalia/Eidolon/Thoughtseize are all regular and guaranteed threats, whereas Mindbreak Trap might not even be in their sb. Sorta like the OP mentions going in against a possible FoW that an opponent might have, the odds are in my favor to just go for it and waiting just lets all their fairer cards catch up to me.

Sadly, I've lost my last few matches against Elves/Goblins because I magically lose the ability to find discard spells when they board in Traps, but thats neither here nor there. I'd appreciate some feedback on these scenarios.


RE: Unknown Opponent

I’d do cantrip first. I’d save my discard spell in proctecting my win.
If he has a turn one kill, then be it.

RE: Mindbreak Trap
If you’re sensing that he uses Mindbreak Trap as his SB against you, then save your disrupt spells for it. Massacre / Grapeshot can take care of his hatebear dudes.

[Ebonclaw]

Hello- I'm a longtime lurker and first time poster. I've been playing TES for about two years and am consider myself a proficient pilot. I'll be taking it to Dallas in August for a SCG Lately I've been seeing some talk of Sensei's Top in ANT lists, and given how the line between TES and ANT is becoming more blurred as Cabal Rituals are beginning to return in some number, has anyone tried dropping a Ponder for a Top? I get that TES is faster and more explosive than ANT, whereas ANT favors the T3-4 kill, and I get that top isn't known for its speed, but a reusable filter that can cantrip and synergizes well with fetches seems like it might have a place to try. I see that it's been tried in the past, but as the list has changed, is it time to revisit this card, if only as a singleton in place of a Ponder?

[Lemnear]

Hello- I'm a longtime lurker and first time poster. I've been playing TES for about two years and am consider myself a proficient pilot. I'll be taking it to Dallas in August for a SCG Lately I've been seeing some talk of Sensei's Top in ANT lists, and given how the line between TES and ANT is becoming more blurred as Cabal Rituals are beginning to return in some number, has anyone tried dropping a Ponder for a Top? I get that TES is faster and more explosive than ANT, whereas ANT favors the T3-4 kill, and I get that top isn't known for its speed, but a reusable filter that can cantrip and synergizes well with fetches seems like it might have a place to try. I see that it's been tried in the past, but as the list has changed, is it time to revisit this card, if only as a singleton in place of a Ponder?

Even ANT isn't replacing a Ponder with it but only a Preordain, a card which is often a boarding/filler slot anyways. The Filter of SDT is maybe even less relevant because TES has a higher business density than ANT ... aside the whole point you already made about the core gameplan

[Dice_Box]

While it is reusable, it costs too much mana to use over the course of the game AND it does not net you a card for your trouble. The deck is also (in base configuration) light on fetches to shuffle. Top does not sing to me. I am sure others will put it more elegantly, but to me, no. Not something I would run. Slow, expensive and not really as abusedable as it is in decks with more lands.

Beaten to the punch.

[Togores]

not a gread playing a top of a gemstone to take a took on your second turn and then get the land blown up for having just maked a bad ponder and a duress.
not?

[Plague Sliver]

Unless you are playing in Berlin where you know that 1/3 of the players are on storm and another 1/3 pilot Miracles

Sounds hardcore. I'd better not bring a knife to a gunfight then...

On Sensei's top. Even with a singleton you're not likely to see it in any given match-up. As others said, tough sell with Gemstone Mine and in a deck that tries to go off as early as possible (T1 goblins vs. D&T/Maverick after they board in 2,000 hate bears is the BEST feeling in the world...)

[Lemnear]

Sounds hardcore. I'd better not bring a knife to a gunfight then...

Yeah, taking Zoo with you for your trip might backfire badly ;D

[Plague Sliver]

Yeah, taking Zoo with you for your trip might backfire badly ;D

Trying to think what deck crushes both Storm AND Miracles...

12 hate bears.dec with 4x MD Gaddock Teeg? (joking)

Drawing a blank. Nothing, really. It does sound like some REAL Magic is being played in Berlin, then.

[ESG]

Trying to think what deck crushes both Storm AND Miracles...

12 hate bears.dec with 4x MD Gaddock Teeg? (joking)

Drawing a blank. Nothing, really. It does sound like some REAL Magic is being played in Berlin, then.

Pretty sure Angel Stompy would perform well against both of those decks. List here, along with a memorable tournament report (not mine):
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25474-I-m-a-Juggernaut-gt-Drop-gt-SCG-Atlanta-with-M0AT_ST0MPY

[Lemnear]

Trying to think what deck crushes both Storm AND Miracles...

12 hate bears.dec with 4x MD Gaddock Teeg? (joking)

Drawing a blank. Nothing, really. It does sound like some REAL Magic is being played in Berlin, then.

12-Post MUD

[sawatarix]

the secret is: There is no Deck wich is powerful enough to beat ant consistently.
ka-tching

[Togores]

I have been playing recentl a lot vs a friend who build up a mono red dragon stompy and if i dont get turn 1 ad nauseam i was loosing most of the games. 4 revoker, 4 chalice, 4 triniesphere, sol lands, simian and moxen and in side 4 ratched 3 earthquake. With TES and ANT Im having a nightmare to play vs him.

just to mention

[Bryant Cook]

At least for a short period of time, I'll be cutting Massacre for another Xantid Swarm. Death & Taxes has died down for the moment in this region and Sneak & Show is picking back-up, just a metagame call.

[jake556]

At least for a short period of time, I'll be cutting Massacre for another Xantid Swarm. Death & Taxes has died down for the moment in this region and Sneak & Show is picking back-up, just a metagame call.

Hey Bryant are you on MODO?

[Bryant Cook]

Hey Bryant are you on MODO?

I am, but not really. I bought a shitty PC off a friend, but it's slow and laggy. Maybe one day when I can figure out how to set up Parallels properly.

[Togores]

Yeah massacre was not great lately. But was fine. Sidding vs blade matchups the grape in and destroying his meddling and sfm. Delvers and so with massacre. I would cut the 2nd chain for the xantid. Have played a lot vs burn and with therapy, racing and so u win most of the ganes vs eidolon. 1 chain is sure enought.

[wonderPreaux]

I am, but not really. I bought a shitty PC off a friend, but it's slow and laggy. Maybe one day when I can figure out how to set up Parallels properly.

It would be absurdly cool for tutorial/demo purposes if we had vod/streams of you in mtgo dailies. granted, it would probably be a bit a time-sink, especially with the impending beta :/

[Bryant Cook]

It would be absurdly cool for tutorial/demo purposes if we had vod/streams of you in mtgo dailies. granted, it would probably be a bit a time-sink, especially with the impending beta :/

I'll be perfectly honest, I have little interest in acquiring the deck online when LEDs are through the roof. Paying that much money for fake magic cards is ridiculous.

[Togores]

Leds have go down a lot due to the reprint in vintage masters. ;)

[wonderPreaux]

Leds have go down a lot due to the reprint in vintage masters. ;)

apparently floating around at $15 for VMA reprints, i feel like a fool for buying in when they were MOCS promos XD

[Royce Walter]

I'll be perfectly honest, I have little interest in acquiring the deck online when LEDs are through the roof. Paying that much money for fake magic cards is ridiculous.

Text me this weekend and I can stream and Skype you in.

[Lemnear]

Text me this weekend and I can stream and Skype you in.

That stuff sounds kinda interresting

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah LED is worth less than infernal tutor on modo last I heard. In fact infernal tutor is the most expensive card in the deck online at 30ish tix a pop if you go with bloodstained mires for fetches since sea is like 15 and volc a little less. The only downside is that modo's clients are hideous really. Although I felt the same way when LED was something like 150+ tix online I thought "no thank you I will never shell out that much for virtual code that I don't own."

[Togores]

Void snare already got.
Gona love to burning for it <3

[saur]

Is there a reason to still play 2x Chain of Vapor-type spells with Void Snare printed? I've only brought it in against Reanimator/Sneak and Show, but it's really terrible if they get Griselbrand anyway.

Get excited everyone, I'm typing up another tournament report. This time with even more lucky draws and misplays.

[wonderPreaux]

Hi everyone, I've been getting some nice results with this build of 3-color TES. I think it has potential, and I'm wondering if anyone has some ideas about what could take up another notch.

Here's where I'm at now:

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
7 Fetchlands

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Bribery
1 Telemin Performance
1 Massacre
1 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle

The MTGO meta, from my experience is clustered around Storm/Combo, Miracles, Elves, Burn, and Delver with smatterings of 12 Post, Dredge/Reanimator, DnT, and the occasional rogue brew. By replacing Abrupt Decay and Xantid Swarm with Pithing Needles and Pyroblast, I can play an arguably better long game without worrying over Gemstone Mines, and have very powerful SB cards that come in in more than 1 matchup each. It's nice having really consistent mana, and having across-the board-solid sb cards.

The main is pretty unremarkable, its pretty much the same as the stock list at a glance. More fetches means you can hit threshold about as easily as you could by emptying Gemstone Mines, maybe even easier, I get a lot of Threshold. 2/1 Duress/Thoughtseize split is a concession to Elves/Eidolon and to a lesser extent Clique. It also makes boarding easier against hatebear decks as you can trim 2 Duress, 2 Ponder for Tutor, Thoughtseize and 2 Chain of Vapors, just Belcher people out and have extra discard to feel them out or foil Mindbreak Trap (fuck that card). The only changes I'm thinking of for the main is tinkering with the balance of fetches versus duals, I don't want to get color-screwed by opening, like, 3 Volcanic Islands, Duress, Infernal Tutor, but I also don't want to fold to Stifle out of Delver decks. I'm considering moving up to 6-7 duals, running 7 duals + 5 fetches only would let me run 1 of each island-fetch, then a Bloodstained Mire, and then I could Pithing fetches and only have to worry about deadening one potential card.

The sideboard is where I'm looking for more insight. I like where I'm headed with cards like Pyroblast and Needle, but some cards don't deliver as much, and I'm not sure what to do with those slots. For example, the Telemin Performance was a Diminishing Returns, before that it was a GY hate card, all I can seem to find for that slot are marginally beneficial cards. I also don't like Massacre that much, or the 2nd Pyroblast, the former being less necessary when I lean on EtW and the latter really only being worth the extra slot, imo, against something like Miracles.

For those 2-3 slots, I've been at a loss for what to do. I thought about Young Pyromancer/Bitterblossom to grind decks like Miracles or even some Delver builds, but Idk which is better or how good the plan is with either one. I considered more Pithing Needle, but it seems subpar to open with a lot of them because its a flexible card to side, but a narrow one to actually play. I also considered cards like Surgical Extraction, but, much like how I'm currently disliking Telemin Performance, I think Extraction would be pretty narrow too. Defense Grid has been on my mind, but I've never played with it, and idk how well it compares to Xantid, or how many matchups it'd be useful in, as I'm, again, trying to shoot for a very flexible board overall.

If anyone had some insights, I'd really appreciate the feedback. The sb will likely be subject to change when Void Snare is out for MTGO and 1 or both Chains are removed for the singleton Snare.

[Bloodcookie]

The sideboard is where I'm looking for more insight...

I've been running Gleeful Sabotage/Revoke Existence as a Wish target vs. anything from Painter-Stone to Miracles to Ethersworn Canonist, thought either would be problematic in your 3-color build.

[wonderPreaux]

I've been running Gleeful Sabotage/Revoke Existence as a Wish target vs. anything from Painter-Stone to Miracles to Ethersworn Canonist, thought either would be problematic in your 3-color build.

Void Snare hits MTGO in a couple weeks, so, thats angle is gonna get some better coverage. It might even open a slot in the board if I dont find a need for any copies of Chain

[Bryant Cook]

Top 4'd a small 6 round legacy event today. Losing twice to Merfolk with main deck Chalice of the Void, I also played against that at Worchester last week. If this trend continues I'm going to start siding it in against them just in case.

[Dice_Box]

Yea, fish is switching out Daze for Chalice. I would think these days if you sit down across from them, expect it as a rule not the exception that they have it now.

[PartyMonster]

I was hoping as the release of m15 it closer that the artwork for void snare would grow on me.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

For whatever it's worth, TES is around 300ish tix on modo.

[wonderPreaux]

Update on where I'm at with the sidedeck for 3-color TES:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Defense Grid
2 Pithing Needle

I feel like this is a pretty balanced side deck to start from. I typically don't like to side out more than 2-3 cards in anything that isn't Miracles or Sneak and Show/Reanimator, so I've got some heavy hitting cards for everything. The Massacre might be replaced by Echoing Truth since it deals with Chalice, idk right now. Diminishing Returns is just a catch-all for discard matchups, and since Storm mirrors are prevalent, but Im unsure if thats worthwhile. I'm looking for room for Bribery, maybe another Echoing Truth. Thoughts?

[sawatarix]

why do you play defense grid over xantid swarm? because of its casting cost or is there another reason behind it?

i like pithin needle alot against decks like sneakshow and senseis devining tops in general (because they can hide and float a force of will on top of their library which is pretty annoying.

the 1-off pyroblast doesn't make any sense,cut it to make room for one of the 2 cards you mentioned (bribery/echoing truth which should be abrupt decay ! )

also cut 1 chain of vapour for 1 void snare.

[Lemnear]

why do you play defense grid over xantid swarm? because of its casting cost or is there another reason behind it?

the 1-off pyroblast doesn't make any sense,cut it to make room for one of the 2 cards you mentioned (bribery/echoing truth which should be abrupt decay ! )

also cut 1 chain of vapour for 1 void snare.


Update on where I'm at with the sidedeck for 3-color TES:

Questions?

[sawatarix]

i don't see any reason to run a 3 colour list , decay and xantid swarm are strictly better then echoing truth and defense grid in my opinion,what do you guys think?
just put the damn tropical island in the sideboard and the job is done.
you can also play tropical in the mainboard and go up to 13 lands if your metagame becomes slow.

[wonderPreaux]

A 3 Color list is more consistent, thats the allure. i dont have to worry about gemstone mines disappearing, i dont have to fetch a land that only casts sb cards and cantrips (or be worried about getting wasted off said land) and I can sit on more fetches to ignore wastelands if i really must. Moreover, this is what I'm trying to work on most, I have effectual cards for a variety of angles instead of 40% of my sb only really being utilized for about 4 matchups, my sb being entirely on-color also means i can seamlessly play out sb cards, disruption and combo cards.

I started tinkering with 3-c TES after trying some of Lemnear's sb techs, Pithing Needle was the one I liked most, and I'm running with it. Needle hits so many different things, and with Probe it may as well be a Cabal Therapy that occasionally hits lands. Defense Grid operates under the same premise as Xantid, you show it in and make their counters irrelevant, you can also bring it in for Miracles because it dodges creature removal (though it can be pierce'd). Pyroblast was originally a 2-of, but in any non-W delver matchup, I never really wanted to board out more than just a single Ponder, and against UWR Delver/Esper, where Cabal Ritual gets sided out, I can hedge with Echoing Truth/Chain with Pyroblast and render the Meddling Mage (or possible Canonists) irrelevant.

I will probably just cut out the Massacre for a second Echoing Truth for coverage against hatebear and chalice decks. In this regard, I actually disagree with the "straight upgrade" idea. Echoing Truth is fairly solid against Chalice by removing multiples, and trying to assemble a specific green source against Chalice decks or hatebear decks, which pack mana denial, seems way worse than just fetching Volc and U Sea in their End, echoing them, and then going off with your useful lands instead of a trop.

edit: chain of vapor will be void snare when it comes out on mtgo

[Bryant Cook]

New list on OP. I think my burn plan is going to change now with Void Snare and the lack of Chain of Vapor, I'm now going to sideboard as such:

-4 Gitaxian probe
+1 Tropical Island
+3 Abrupt Decay

(Also an option)
-1 Empty the Warrens
+1 Void Snare

Siding out Empty is something I'm unsure of as the match-up has now become more like Death & Taxes where we need to do something before turn two, but they could just kill us before the tokens matter. Siding in Void Snare is fine if you decide to, due to Wish for Grapeshot.

[Pelikanudo]

related to the mana base of a 3 color TES:

well the only thing I tested was +1fetch-1Gemstone leaving total 3 gemstone main and the unique reason was to have more Access to u.sea for massacre and a more fetch effect for b.s., i made 6-0 in a row vs 3 jund, but really didnt matter at all..., I felt that I needed to go back to full of gemstone...
- the way I use b.s. is not even neccessary for me to fetch most of times - a very different way I use it in ANT!
- having a +1 Massacre effect is worse than having a gemstone.

there are sometimes that you use gemstone first to ponder next to duress and lastly to win with rite of flame. this is a reason I would not play less than 4 gemstone even in a 3 color TES build with 12 lands. If I increment the number of lands to 13 maybe I would, but really gemstone for me is a very good card in the deck, all I can say.

About Void Snare and the Side:

I really want to include Void Snare in the side and after lot of thinking I will expose the slot - this is my side:

SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 [RS] Tropical Island
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [MM] Bribery
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [FNM] Duress - this was before a IoK. maybe with the raise of burn decks I will let it - dont think so.

I wanted to take out or 1 duress or 1 pyro -
really the duress effect dont want to take out as this is my main plan vs S&T and Reanimator variants, was effective the other day vs reanimator.
pyro which is a card I really dont side as a 1 of vs miracles as much - is really versatile vs RUG, Patriot, Blade, control in general or even a OmniShow decks - deck I really don't face. 2 is a correct number.
Dimnishisng and Bribery are cards I'm happy with - they in conjuntion makes b.w. a powerfull threat vs diff. decks, sure at least bribery will leave the side if i.t. is put in side - this by the moment won't happen.
So having a 3rd WinCond in the name of Bribery and having Massacre as creature destroyer - grapeshot is going to be the card to put into the bin. lately I just use EtW or Tendrils or Bribery to win match ups and sometimes grapeshot to take out some gaddog teeg but is also handled by v.snare. - even I just hate to side g.s. vs miracles or blade because of Meddling mage, Pyro is just better! and for canonist Massacre is just also better.

I would like to know opinions related to this change - some will blame me for taking out grapeshot - these are my arguments.

[I]Related to the burn match up:
well the other day I faced 2 - I'm really happy to see a burn player, I really don't mind if they play eidolon or not - I usually face the game as vs D&T.- maybe its ime to go back to 3rd c.m.4th i.t. main! joke.
I think I just side nothing usually on 2nd an 3rd match ups...now maybe +1tropical,+1t.seize=-2duress I really dont want to take out EtW, as usually wins me also games OtP.
Apart I need to say: sure G.P deals damage and is pyroblast target, but I dont think these are enough reasons to take them out vs a Burn Deck. I want to say that in some ocasións D.R. gave me the victory vs a Burn player.

Apart, If someone can answer to this:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=821601&viewfull=1#post821601

this will make me very very happy. thanks.

[wonderPreaux]

related to the mana base of a 3 color TES:

well the only thing I tested was +1fetch-1Gemstone leaving total 3 gemstone main and the unique reason was to have more Access to u.sea for massacre and a more fetch effect for b.s., i made 6-0 in a row vs 3 jund, but really didnt matter at all..., I felt that I needed to go back to full of gemstone...
- the way I use b.s. is not even neccessary for me to fetch most of times - a very different way I use it in ANT!
- having a +1 Massacre effect is worse than having a gemstone.

there are sometimes that you use gemstone first to ponder next to duress and lastly to win with rite of flame. this is a reason I would not play less than 4 gemstone even in a 3 color TES build with 12 lands. If I increment the number of lands to 13 maybe I would, but really gemstone for me is a very good card in the deck, all I can say.

I'm in a weird place with Gemstone Mine when it comes to a 3C base, I hate how it burns out in control matchups because I so often need to wear the opponent down with many Wishes, cantrips etc. but when going off asap, against D&T or Elves for instance, you can't really afford to wait on assembling 2 separate duals. I originally started testing with 3 Mines in 13 lands, and now I'm at 0 of 12, so I guess I'll try them again, see what happens, might have just been a bad luck string of control matchups. My first instinct is that 3 is the magic number for Gemstone Mine in a 3C build, because I have no Green/White cards to feel pressure to have flexible mana for, and I can reduce openings with multiple Gemstones when I'm in control matchups.

I do think your point about Grapeshot is interesting, but there are matchups where I could see myself wanting Grapeshot over the coverage of Massacre+Void Snare. If we're to consider dropping Grapeshot it would be because the value of that freed up slot is worth more than the ability to have a win condition in the sb for matches where we maindeck Tendrils, as well as the ability to bolt opponents when we're racing with Goblins. Since those do seem like corner cases, if there is a pressing need for a slot, it could be a worthwhile move.

[strom]

Here is a tricky one for you: If your meta is full of Death and Taxes and Maverick but also full of burn (and the rest is something blue-based) how would you change manindeck and sideboard taking Bryant's current list from the op as a starting point.

My main concern are the MD Duress. With so much DnT going on, I would rather have Thoughtseizes instead to have an additional out to get rid of their hatebears. On the other hand there are the burn decks, where shocking oneself is far from ideal, although Burn players seem to try Eidolon maindeck nowadays. Maybe a split of Duress and TS will do the trick? FoW ist still a conteder so I dont want to go "all in" and play Inqusition instead.

Concerning the sideboard, I might cut Xantid Swarm because only a few SnT decks are played here. Maybe I should pack an extra Massacre to have one as a wish target and one in the main for game 2.


What do you think?

[Lemnear]

Here is a tricky one for you: If your meta is full of Death and Taxes and Maverick but also full of burn (and the rest is something blue-based) how would you change manindeck and sideboard taking Bryant's current list from the op as a starting point.

My main concern are the MD Duress. With so much DnT going on, I would rather have Thoughtseizes instead to have an additional out to get rid of their hatebears. On the other hand there are the burn decks, where shocking oneself is far from ideal, although Burn players seem to try Eidolon maindeck nowadays. Maybe a split of Duress and TS will do the trick? FoW ist still a conteder so I dont want to go "all in" and play Inqusition instead.

Concerning the sideboard, I might cut Xantid Swarm because only a few SnT decks are played here. Maybe I should pack an extra Massacre to have one as a wish target and one in the main for game 2.


What do you think?

I think that you missed the fact that from our side of the field D&T requires the same strategic approach as Burn.dec and that is the Belcher-Mode. It doesn't matter if it's Canonist + Thalia or Eidolon + Pillar coming down turn 2 and following. It doesn't matter if you discard a Thalia or an Eidolon if they are about to topdeck/drop a Canonist or a Pillar just because you wasted a card, a mana and a turn for discarding. I witnessed enough situations to guaran-damn-tee that relying on discard against D&T is a loosing trait.

Flipping Massacre to Ad Nauseam sounds tech.

[Bahamuth]

I would run 2 Ad Nauseam, 4 Infernal Tutor 3 Wish and no Cabal Ritual in that meta, but I'll probably get burned into the ground for suggesting that.

[Lemnear]

I would run 2 Ad Nauseam, 4 Infernal Tutor 3 Wish and no Cabal Ritual in that meta, but I'll probably get burned into the ground for suggesting that.

I asume the second Ad Nauseam isn't replacing the EtW and you aim at naturally drawing AN's rather than wishes? The only thing that irks me is that I want to flip Wish to AN 99% of the time as the cheapest and easiest access to our winconditions. Could you elaborate?

[Bahamuth]

I asume the second Ad Nauseam isn't replacing the EtW and you aim at naturally drawing AN's rather than wishes? The only thing that irks me is that I want to flip Wish to AN 99% of the time as the cheapest and easiest access to our winconditions. Could you elaborate?

No I don't replace the EtW. Compared to the openings post, it would be:
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Burning Wish
+1 Chrome Mox
+1 Ad Nauseam
+1 Infernal Tutor
(and some different lands configuration)


The reasoning here is that I just want to win as fast as I can. To achieve that goal, I don't want to draw Wishes and I do definitely want to draw Ad Nauseam. I also hate drawing slower hands with only Burning Wish since they actually don't really do anything. In general I'm kind of always looking for excuses to cut Wishes from the deck, though I don't think you can go below 3.

As you mention, it obviously makes Ad Nauseam worse. All I can say about that, is that it's not been an issue for me (I ran 2 Ad Nauseam for a pretty long time in lists with City of Brass). It's extremely difficult to quantify how much worse Ad Nauseam becomes by changing the deck, perhaps until someone takes the time to write some code that could simulate resolving Ad Nauseam.

[Asthereal]

Here is a tricky one for you: If your meta is full of Death and Taxes and Maverick but also full of burn (and the rest is something blue-based) how would you change manindeck and sideboard taking Bryant's current list from the op as a starting point.

My main concern are the MD Duress. With so much DnT going on, I would rather have Thoughtseizes instead to have an additional out to get rid of their hatebears. On the other hand there are the burn decks, where shocking oneself is far from ideal, although Burn players seem to try Eidolon maindeck nowadays. Maybe a split of Duress and TS will do the trick? FoW ist still a conteder so I dont want to go "all in" and play Inqusition instead.

Concerning the sideboard, I might cut Xantid Swarm because only a few SnT decks are played here. Maybe I should pack an extra Massacre to have one as a wish target and one in the main for game 2.


What do you think?

In such a meta, I would actually consider to drop the Probes.
Information isn't as important against D&T, Maverick and Burn, and the life loss could become an issue.
Also, Probes make mulligan decisions harder, which in turn may lower your odds to go off turn 1-2.

But anyway, in the current list you can always play 4x Therapy, 2x Duress, 1x Thoughtseize.
The one-of Seize shouldn't kill you, and Duresses get sided out for bounce or removal anyway.

[Kael]

In such a meta, I would actually consider to drop the Probes.
Information isn't as important against D&T, Maverick and Burn, and the life loss could become an issue.
Also, Probes make mulligan decisions harder, which in turn may lower your odds to go off turn 1-2.

But anyway, in the current list you can always play 4x Therapy, 2x Duress, 1x Thoughtseize.
The one-of Seize shouldn't kill you, and Duresses get sided out for bounce or removal anyway.

The problem with that I see is that every postboard Therapy is a small gamble, since Burn often runs both Eidolon and Pillar these days, and DnT runs Thalia + Canonist. That, combined with Duress missing Eidolon/Canonist/Thalia, makes your protection pretty unreliable. Increases your chances of going off turns 1-2 perhaps, but it makes your slower hands extremely risky.

[Asthereal]

The problem with that I see is that every postboard Therapy is a small gamble, since Burn often runs both Eidolon and Pillar these days, and DnT runs Thalia + Canonist. That, combined with Duress missing Eidolon/Canonist/Thalia, makes your protection pretty unreliable. Increases your chances of going off turns 1-2 perhaps, but it makes your slower hands extremely risky.

Oh don't worry. If I were to ever drop Probe, Therapies would of course be replaced as well.
Cabal Therapy is nowhere near playable without Probes. Maybe a one-of as Wish target could work, but that's about it.

But seriously, against hatebear.dec you have two options: 1. Win FAST. 2. Have flexible protection. Discard isn't flexible protection. The bear that slips through will be the end of you. Lem has pointed this out often enough. You need a proper way of getting rid of the bear. In my opinion, Chain of Vapor is still a very viable card here. Make sure you have a couple of those on side in a meta like the one descibed above.

[Lemnear]

The problem with that I see is that every postboard Therapy is a small gamble, since Burn often runs both Eidolon and Pillar these days, and DnT runs Thalia + Canonist. That, combined with Duress missing Eidolon/Canonist/Thalia, makes your protection pretty unreliable. Increases your chances of going off turns 1-2 perhaps, but it makes your slower hands extremely risky.


In such a meta, I would actually consider to drop the Probes.
Information isn't as important against D&T, Maverick and Burn, and the life loss could become an issue.
Also, Probes make mulligan decisions harder, which in turn may lower your odds to go off turn 1-2.

But anyway, in the current list you can always play 4x Therapy, 2x Duress, 1x Thoughtseize.
The one-of Seize shouldn't kill you, and Duresses get sided out for bounce or removal anyway.

Once more: I have no fucking clue why you guys are so focussed on discard to battle Burn.dec and Death & Taxes. Discussing options to make slow hands keepable or which discard is the best for taking hatebears and still losing to topdecked ones is totally off. If you want to board something against Thalia, Canonist, Eidolon and shit, it should be bounce in place of the Duresses.

I disagree with the Probe cutting or boarding out as the information might me less relevant against the matchups in question but they sure matter for the mana density in the deck and for the free stormcount. As pointed out many times in this very thread, being able to drop goblins before hatebears come down, is TES' primary and exclusive strategic weapon within the storm-supertype and 2 life is a reasonable cost for an extra bunch of red men.

"Dropping Probes" is far beyond a meta call. It turns the whole deck concept and card choices like Cabal Therapy ad absurdum. Not even ANT would drop the Probes and the deck is even slower (tbh they run probes not for EtW + Therapy but for fast Thres.hold + Therapy)


Edit: got ninja'd by Asthereal. Looks like he's up for another ninja-battle xD

[Pelikanudo]

I would run 2 Ad Nauseam, 4 Infernal Tutor 3 Wish and no Cabal Ritual in that meta, but I'll probably get burned into the ground for suggesting that.

I also prefer to play 4 I.T. and 3 B.W. than 4 B.W. 3 I.T.! good to hear that!
my configuration plays full of burning - i.tutor and 1 A.N.

[sawatarix]

i play 2 ad nauseams in my ant deck and i really like it - but for another reason ->burning wish is such a horrible card in ant so i have to increase the business spell count and the second ad nauseam is perfect to increase the powerboost on turn 1-2.

but back to TES: once i also suggested the second ad nauseam (but instead of empty the warrens).ad nauseam in your opening hand is just brillliant and is exactly what the deck want to do on turn 1 - slam the ugly card on the table to go crazy.
so for me it makes perfect sense.
haven't really tested it so far so if you have some testing results please let me know.

[BrettF]

I've updated my TES sideboarding guide with Bryant's new list. Message me and I will send it to you! To prevent cluttering the discussion I won't post it here. Cheers :)

[Lemnear]

I've updated my TES sideboarding guide with Bryant's new list. Message me and I will send it to you! To prevent cluttering the discussion I won't post it here. Cheers :)

Is there a current discussion going? For me, the preboarded IT is a matter of your metagame and the only topic ongoing.

Overall, I think your last SB guide was fine (we discussed some parts via Facebook) and I guess some people prefer the clear +/- boarding advice given over Bryant's general strategic directions given in the OP (which I prefer as even upcoming printings not named can be fit in the strategic corset). I would prefer it to find it's place here.

[Dice_Box]

Just pointing out, many of the early " Feature matches" on the OP are no longer active links.

[Asthereal]

Just pointing out, many of the early " Feature matches" on the OP are no longer active links.
Perhaps best to mention this in PM to Bryant.
He does follow the discussion here, but not as closely as he used to, so he might miss a remark like this. :wink:

[Bryant Cook]

Perhaps best to mention this in PM to Bryant.
He does follow the discussion here, but not as closely as he used to, so he might miss a remark like this. :wink:

I messaged Jupiter this morning to find out what happened, it appears that UStream may take down inactive account videos after a certain amount of time.

As for not following, I pay close attention. I just don't comment as much anymore because I feel like I have different opinions than many of you, I'm at a point where I feel like I don't need to constantly defend my decisions or choices.

For example, you're all freaking out over siding out Probe against burn. I think it's perfectly acceptable, it's a card that helps their game plan that's relatively low impact. I understand it's synergies with Cabal Therapy or it's ability to add a storm for an early Empty the Warrens. But it's actually not that good in the match-up, Duress hitting Mind Break Trap or Pyrostatic Pillar is more important. Cabal Ritual has more value as it makes Past in Flames a more lucrative option as our life-total will dwindle quickly and Burn can just race goblins. As for the lack of synergy with Therapy, we were likely going to name Eidelon anyway or if they don't have it in play Mind Break Trap. The card will hit the same problematic issues whether or not Gitaxian Probe is in the deck.

I just don't have the effort to repeatedly tell people how to play the deck or that their small change from my list is slightly worse in the grand scheme of things. I just don't care if anyone kills themselves more often than I do because they think running two Ad Nauseam and Empty is a good idea. I'm constantly working on the best list possible, if anyone disagrees with a change I make, they're not forced to do the same. But I weigh my changes heavily and if I make them, they're for good reason.

[wonderPreaux]

As for not following, I pay close attention. I just don't comment as much anymore because I feel like I have different opinions than many of you, I'm at a point where I feel like I don't need to constantly defend my decisions or choices.

I just don't have the effort to repeatedly tell people how to play the deck or that their small change from my list is slightly worse in the grand scheme of things. I just don't care if anyone kills themselves more often than I do because they think running two Ad Nauseam and Empty is a good idea. I'm constantly working on the best list possible, if anyone disagrees with a change I make, they're not forced to do the same. But I weigh my changes heavily and if I make them, they're for good reason.

Wouldn't you having a different opinion than the rest of us mean that the discussion benefits from having you commenting more and not less? Not even from a standpoint of winning over the other person to your side, but just engendering a more complete view of the issue. For example, I read the first TES thread all the way from '06, (I read all the post in this thread, working my way through all the threads) and there were debates about cards like Trinket Mage or the balance of lands vs. Chrome Mox (back then you were at 10 lands/4 Mox, now youre at 12 lands/2 Mox, with Cabal Rituals in both builds, its actually really interesting to look at how much changes/stays the same over time). These discussions often didnt end cleanly or simply, but people were compelled to put some detail and thought into all the viewpoints. Regardless of which one is ultimately correct, that puts so much information out there and can really only improve the overall design. I don't even necessarily think you have to try to refute one option or defend another, if you put an idea out there and someone else puts out something different, the people who actually care will go out and test or think on those ideas.

On a different note, I wanted to bring Diminishing Returns to people's attention. With Infernal Tutor in the SB, I understand that Diminishing Returns appears somewhat unnecessary as Tutor -> Ad Nauseam can win a game as opposed to just giving you a Timetwister sort of effect. While Returns might just be seen as a good card in a discard-heavy meta, what I want to note is how good it can be in combo matchups. I run into a lot of storm and dredge on MTGO, and for a while I was looking for a way to put myself ahead in those matchups. The problem I was having was cards like Surgical Extraction, Telemin Performance and the like are too narrow for my taste, and anything I have to maindeck just makes the deck diluted, so it can be a hindrance. It's really hard to make an already fast deck faster (marginal cost vs stability) and trying to slow down both decks with silver-bullets feels like a misalignment of roles in the matchup. And then I just looked at Diminishing Returns and realized it was everything I was looking for in that sort of matchup:

If you're playing the SB'd Infernal Tutor, you've probably encountered the frustration of knowing that Wish > Tutor > Ad Nauseam just isn't as strong a line against other combos when you either need 9 total mana (not impossible, but it is a high amount in a matchup with discard spells) or need to somehow dodge the giant signal for the opponent to throw a discard spell at you if you try to set up with Wish. With Returns in the side, you can maindeck all your Tutors for maximum threat density and still have productive lines with your Wishes, since you can either discard with Thoughtseize or spin Diminishing Returns for cards. The ability to destroy ANT's hand-sculpting or reset Dredge's graveyard while pulling yourself out if you were behind from opposing discard spells is great stuff, especially when you can make your maindeck more threat-dense with 8 total tutors while you do it. If you're running 4 MD Tutor and 3 MD Chrome Mox, the Returns can be even better since you have a greater chance to continue your combo with more Chrome Mox (it is worth noting that Returns obviously does conflict with Cabal Ritual, though Cabal Ritual is fantastic pre-Returns, for the same reason that it's good pre-Nauseam).

Diminishing Returns also has some nice interactions in lots on non-blue matchups, which is what seems to have concerned a lot of people during the switch to SB Infernal Tutor and MD Cabal Ritual. Has anyone else been missing Diminishing Returns since they removed it? I think, in much the same way you might add another Xantid for SnT-heavy metas, Diminishing Returns is a wonderful card for Storm/discard heavy meta.

[Boghald]

I've never needed Dimishing Returns. I could win throught other ways and against Storm/discards, we're faster than all of them, so we needn't use Dimishing Returns to recover our hand. That's the reason I agree with that change.

[Lemnear]

I've never needed Dimishing Returns. I could win throught other ways and against Storm/discards, we're faster than all of them, so we needn't use Dimishing Returns to recover our hand. That's the reason I agree with that change.

In other words: Dim.Ret. was bad in your opinion because you simply didn't understand it's use (see bolded part).

Edit:

Wouldn't you having a different opinion than the rest of us mean that the discussion benefits from having you commenting more and not less? Not even from a standpoint of winning over the other person to your side, but just engendering a more complete view of the issue. For example, I read the first TES thread all the way from '06, (I read all the post in this thread, working my way through all the threads) and there were debates about cards like Trinket Mage or the balance of lands vs. Chrome Mox (back then you were at 10 lands/4 Mox, now youre at 12 lands/2 Mox, with Cabal Rituals in both builds, its actually really interesting to look at how much changes/stays the same over time). These discussions often didnt end cleanly or simply, but people were compelled to put some detail and thought into all the viewpoints. Regardless of which one is ultimately correct, that puts so much information out there and can really only improve the overall design. I don't even necessarily think you have to try to refute one option or defend another, if you put an idea out there and someone else puts out something different, the people who actually care will go out and test or think on those ideas.

On a different note, I wanted to bring Diminishing Returns to people's attention. With Infernal Tutor in the SB, I understand that Diminishing Returns appears somewhat unnecessary as Tutor -> Ad Nauseam can win a game as opposed to just giving you a Timetwister sort of effect. While Returns might just be seen as a good card in a discard-heavy meta, what I want to note is how good it can be in combo matchups. I run into a lot of storm and dredge on MTGO, and for a while I was looking for a way to put myself ahead in those matchups. The problem I was having was cards like Surgical Extraction, Telemin Performance and the like are too narrow for my taste, and anything I have to maindeck just makes the deck diluted, so it can be a hindrance. It's really hard to make an already fast deck faster (marginal cost vs stability) and trying to slow down both decks with silver-bullets feels like a misalignment of roles in the matchup. And then I just looked at Diminishing Returns and realized it was everything I was looking for in that sort of matchup:

If you're playing the SB'd Infernal Tutor, you've probably encountered the frustration of knowing that Wish > Tutor > Ad Nauseam just isn't as strong a line against other combos when you either need 9 total mana (not impossible, but it is a high amount in a matchup with discard spells) or need to somehow dodge the giant signal for the opponent to throw a discard spell at you if you try to set up with Wish. With Returns in the side, you can maindeck all your Tutors for maximum threat density and still have productive lines with your Wishes, since you can either discard with Thoughtseize or spin Diminishing Returns for cards. The ability to destroy ANT's hand-sculpting or reset Dredge's graveyard while pulling yourself out if you were behind from opposing discard spells is great stuff, especially when you can make your maindeck more threat-dense with 8 total tutors while you do it. If you're running 4 MD Tutor and 3 MD Chrome Mox, the Returns can be even better since you have a greater chance to continue your combo with more Chrome Mox (it is worth noting that Returns obviously does conflict with Cabal Ritual, though Cabal Ritual is fantastic pre-Returns, for the same reason that it's good pre-Nauseam).

Diminishing Returns also has some nice interactions in lots on non-blue matchups, which is what seems to have concerned a lot of people during the switch to SB Infernal Tutor and MD Cabal Ritual. Has anyone else been missing Diminishing Returns since they removed it? I think, in much the same way you might add another Xantid for SnT-heavy metas, Diminishing Returns is a wonderful card for Storm/discard heavy meta.

This wall of text has basically 2 topics. First, if you participate long enough in this thread and the board overall, you'll realize that topics and discussions are repetitive and as I complain every once in a while, I explain the same shit over and over and over in this thread and grew tired of it. I'm sick of writing thousands of words as a response to some one-liners and lists posted without elaboration, therefore I tend to write short, edgy and douchy comments at times as I'm unwilling to invest more time for writing than people do for thinking and/or testing. I can imagine that Bryant is even more fed up of it and therefore, if you want him to participate in a discussion, pick up a fresh topic and invest gray matter.

Which brings me to the second part of your post which is Dim.Ret. in regards to storm mirrors and Dredge. Returns is horrible outside of turn 1's here as ANT will destoy you if you can't kill them the same turn and because they'll also likely have Flusterstorms in the SB. You have no Chance to win an attrition war against 8 "Black Lotus" a more stable manabase and cheaper access to a flurry of discard after your "Draw7, go!". While resetting Dredge during it's turn 2's and 3's is nice in theory, the problem is rooted in the possible Army of Zombies during those turns and numerous Cabal Therapies aimed at you, dismembering your hand and stripping you from all options to cast Diminishing Returns.

You'll see, that in both cases you picked for Returns to shine, it is actually a bad card if cast turn 2 or later and it stays the typical turn 1 value-play it ever was and I mentioned dozen of times in the history of this thread. Nothing more. Is this enough to cluster a SB slot? Personal choice


Edit 2:
I lol'd at the bolded part. Why does this pop up again and again: A deck with discard dismembers your hand, people claim that they SOMEHOW STILL HAVE ENOUGH MANA to cast DimRet and REFILL THEIR OPPONENTS HAND WITH MORE DISCARD/THREATS and think that puts them into a favorable position?



Edit 3:
Is that one of the edgy, douchy posts I mentioned? Dunno

[wonderPreaux]

Which brings me to the second part of your post which is Dim.Ret. in regards to storm mirrors and Dredge. Returns is horrible outside of turn 1's here as ANT will destoy you if you can't kill them the same turn and because they'll also likely have Flusterstorms in the SB. You have no Chance to win an attrition war against 8 "Black Lotus" a more stable manabase and cheaper access to a flurry of discard after your "Draw7, go!". While resetting Dredge during it's turn 2's and 3's is nice in theory, the problem is rooted in the possible Army of Zombies during those turns and numerous Cabal Therapies aimed at you, dismembering your hand and stripping you from all options to cast Diminishing Returns.

You'll see, that in both cases you picked for Returns to shine, it is actually a bad card if cast turn 2 or later and it stays the typical turn 1 value-play it ever was and I mentioned dozen of times in the history of this thread. Nothing more. Is this enough to cluster a SB slot? Personal choice


Edit 2:
I lol'd at the bolded part. Why does this pop up again and again: A deck with discard dismembers your hand, people claim that they SOMEHOW STILL HAVE ENOUGH MANA to cast DimRet and REFILL THEIR OPPONENTS HAND WITH MORE DISCARD/THREATS and think that puts them into a favorable position?

The scenario I cited regarding discard was about how Wish > Infernal > Ad Nauseam is so vulnerable to discard. It's not devastating like Thoughtseize into Hymn to Tourach, but you are way behind if your only line is through Burning Wish and you're playing against possible Duress/Therapy. If you're hit by discard beforehand, it's going to be very hard to go ahead and get that 9 mana, and if you go "Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor, go" it's a huge tell for their discard and makes their Cabal Therapy 100% accurate. By having Dim. Ret in the sb you can do something with Wish + 6-8 mana, you can also play all your Infernal Tutors main deck after board without turning all your Wishes into less productive cards.

In my big paragraph about Dim Ret, you bolded my reference to it interacting with discard, but the main point mentioned before and after it is threat density. I can go in with 8 tutors that need only either 6 or 7 mana minimum to go do stuff, instead of 7 that need 7 or 9. Logically, by increasing the number of tutors and lowering the resources needed for them to be useful, I would then have more opening hands on average that just go off without giving the opponent a chance to touch me. It's not as though the fringe benefits of resetting GY or hands that i noted are the primary allure, it's just about having more combinations of cards on any given turn that let me play some bomb of a spell. The opportunity to foil a t1 Breakthrough/Ponder or strand them on a less-than-great 7 is just a little bonus that makes the situation potentially better.

You say yourself Returns is a value turn 1 play and in a combo mirror where both players are trying to be as fast as possible, isn't increasing the number of big turn 1 plays just the sort of thing you'd want to do? Roughly 25% of the matches I've played this month were against Storm combo (3 of which were tes mirrors) or Dredge. When combo has that much of the meta it seems only naturally to try and grab an edge against those matches. Cards like Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction and the like just felt too narrow or reactive, whereas Diminishing Returns is something you can be very aggressive with and seems to fit TES better.

I do get the logic that TES is one of the fastest combos, and that nut hands just happen on either side of the matchup, and with those 2 facts combined it becomes really difficult to have any worthwhile considerations for combo matchups specifically. However, I don't want to be flipping coins against 25% of my meta if I can avoid it. I don't mean to overvalue the card, and if anyone thinks of better tech I'll be down to try it, it's just a frustrating situation and I'm looking for solutions

[Togores]

I have never needed dinishing since I cutted it. I usualy always could grab pif and win on the same manner. Cabal ritual does miracles.

[Lemnear]

The scenario I cited regarding discard was about how Wish > Infernal > Ad Nauseam is so vulnerable to discard. It's not devastating like Thoughtseize into Hymn to Tourach, but you are way behind if your only line is through Burning Wish and you're playing against possible Duress/Therapy. If you're hit by discard beforehand, it's going to be very hard to go ahead and get that 9 mana, and if you go "Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor, go" it's a huge tell for their discard and makes their Cabal Therapy 100% accurate. By having Dim. Ret in the sb you can do something with Wish + 6-8 mana, you can also play all your Infernal Tutors main deck after board without turning all your Wishes into less productive cards.


You asume that the discard aimed at you isn't stripping the Wish in the first place here. 9 mana in the combo mirror is hardcore but there is still the option to run cards like Bribery or Telemin in the side over Returns as it is possible to board in the SB infernal. Diminishing Returns remains a turn 1 gamble card which can even help you opponent after he mulled or such. It's a nice tool to recover from a mulligan or a Chrome Mox, but tight play and keeps do this too while DimRet just resets the game in most cases ... and nearly as often: not in your favor. As non-blue or non-black decks are no longer existing in Legacy (minor hyperbole), DimRet is a miserable storm-engine now and left as a risky walk-right-into-FoW/Daze/Pierce-and-then-still-not-win-on-it's-own-card, refilling your opponents hand with either counterspells or discard. For my taste, you can't argue for DimRet with the help of combo decks especially due to randomness dealing a low blow to yourself at times.

The last fatal DimRet backlash, I witnessed was at BoM8 as Sawatarix casted DimRet and passed against Sloshthedark's ANT.

In my big paragraph about Dim Ret, you bolded my reference to it interacting with discard, but the main point mentioned before and after it is threat density. I can go in with 8 tutors that need only either 6 or 7 mana minimum to go do stuff, instead of 7 that need 7 or 9. Logically, by increasing the number of tutors and lowering the resources needed for them to be useful, I would then have more opening hands on average that just go off without giving the opponent a chance to touch me. It's not as though the fringe benefits of resetting GY or hands that i noted are the primary allure, it's just about having more combinations of cards on any given turn that let me play some bomb of a spell. The opportunity to foil a t1 Breakthrough/Ponder or strand them on a less-than-great 7 is just a little bonus that makes the situation potentially better.


Again: I sure see your topic of mana in the combo mirror and I agree that you might want cheaper options than the 9-mana-line, but I can't see Returns being the answer to the question of "what is the cheapest sorcery blowout to play in side against combo?". However, the answer is pretty simple: Thoughtseize

You say yourself Returns is a value turn 1 play and in a combo mirror where both players are trying to be as fast as possible, isn't increasing the number of big turn 1 plays just the sort of thing you'd want to do? Roughly 25% of the matches I've played this month were against Storm combo (3 of which were tes mirrors) or Dredge. When combo has that much of the meta it seems only naturally to try and grab an edge against those matches. Cards like Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction and the like just felt too narrow or reactive, whereas Diminishing Returns is something you can be very aggressive with and seems to fit TES better.


The first sentence is correct to the point where you have to ask what a "big turn 1 Play" actually is. Is it being on the play and giving your non-FoW-opponent a random, crappy hands without mana? It is. Is it being on the draw (with your opponent potentially mulled before) against a deck with FoW or it being able to fling discard at YOUR new, random 7 or it being able to combo you out turn 2? Not in the slightest. DimRet is an equalizer and situations in which this might be desired became too rare to reserve a slot. Moreover, an equalizer isn't what I consider the best "big turn 1 play".

I do get the logic that TES is one of the fastest combos, and that nut hands just happen on either side of the matchup, and with those 2 facts combined it becomes really difficult to have any worthwhile considerations for combo matchups specifically. However, I don't want to be flipping coins against 25% of my meta if I can avoid it. I don't mean to overvalue the card, and if anyone thinks of better tech I'll be down to try it, it's just a frustrating situation and I'm looking for solutions


The SB discard spell is just there for these situations, where you have to stall your opponents combo. If you want to blow out your 25% storm meta, use Telemin as it was a viable meta choice in Berlin as well during it's time.

[Asthereal]

I always have a draw-7 in my board regardless of what everybody here is trying. I just had too many times where I had just one Wish and no way to win with Past in Flames, while my opponent had lethal on the board. I know this isn't that way Returns should be used, but I'd rather have the option than to have a guaranteed loss there.

Infernal on side helps cover many of these situations, but not all of them. The new list plays just two Cabal Ritual to try and give us the wealth of mana needed for a Wish->Infernal win. I don't seem to draw hands very often that can actually do that. Returns with two mana floating is a fine alternative then. Not against counterspell.dec of course, but there's Jund, D&T, Pox, Burn and I know not what else out there that I also have to beat with my awkward hands.

Funny thing: if I can squeeze it in, I am also still running Ill-Gotten Gains. I know sideboard space is limited, but during my games I often find that having a flexible Wish board just feels good. Terrible argument, I know, but if I feel uncertain and uncomfortable, I am more prone to making mistakes. And let's face it, a well tuned list means nothing if you blunder away your games. Success factor nr. 1 in TES has always been the skill of its pilot.

[Boghald]

In other words: Dim.Ret. was bad in your opinion because you simply didn't understand it's use (see bolded part).

I've said that beacuse he defended that it was great to recover hands, not because i think that ¬¬ Read his post again.

[Lemnear]

I've said that beacuse he defended that it was great to recover hands, not because i think that ¬¬ Read his post again.

I just saw the topic in 3 different posts covered before I posted, so I felt like dropping a line

[wonderPreaux]

Alright, I will give Telemin some more testing. Between that and Thoughtseize, I can probably keep up with Storm just fine. I'm a bit irked by Telemin being worthless against Dredge, would it be overkill to run Bribery and Telemin to really come down on all the combo decks?.

[Lemnear]

Alright, I will give Telemin some more testing. Between that and Thoughtseize, I can probably keep up with Storm just fine. I'm a bit irked by Telemin being worthless against Dredge, would it be overkill to run Bribery and Telemin to really come down on all the combo decks?.

I don't see a reason to run both. If you expect 12-Post, Forgemaster MUD, Reanimator or SneakShow, Bribery is a save bet. Telemin is a risky gamble and even more in storm postboard games as peeps board in some Confidants, Pyromancer or shit to prevent that angle. Both are however pointless against most Dredge variants. I still think what IF you are looking for a wishable Kill-condition in the combo-mirror, both options are more viable than DimRet atm.

[wonderPreaux]

I don't see a reason to run both. If you expect 12-Post, Forgemaster MUD, Reanimator or SneakShow, Bribery is a save bet. Telemin is a risky gamble and even more in storm postboard games as peeps board in some Confidants, Pyromancer or shit to prevent that angle. Both are however pointless against most Dredge variants. I still think what IF you are looking for a wishable Kill-condition in the combo-mirror, both options are more viable than DimRet atm.

I'll try them each out then. The frustrating thing is that storm is more likely, but telemin is risky, whereas bribery is a sure-hit but i'm less likely to see decks itd be good against (although that may change as SnT is the next MOCS promo), so the EV of both seems fairly close, lol.

[sawatarix]

I'm still not impressed by either Telemin Performace nor Bribery.
I know if you cast it against reanimator or sneakshow it's a great feeling but the card isn't a necessity because most of the time you can stil combo off via past in flames or infernal->ad nauseam or whatever.
And even if you have a fatty (say griselbrand/emrakul) the win is not guaranteed and that's probably the reason why i really dislike bribery/tp in the deck.
There is nothing worse than a combodeck which can loose after executing the combo.
(logically i'm also not a big fan of decks like reanimator or sneakshow for the same reason)

instead, i would increase the copies of real important spells in the sideboard such as abrupt decay (up to 3) , xantid swarms (up to 3),...

[Lemnear]

I'm still not impressed by either Telemin Performace nor Bribery.
I know if you cast it against reanimator or sneakshow it's a great feeling but the card isn't a necessity because most of the time you can stil combo off via past in flames or infernal->ad nauseam or whatever.
And even if you have a fatty (say griselbrand/emrakul) the win is not guaranteed and that's probably the reason why i really dislike bribery/tp in the deck.
There is nothing worse than a combodeck which can loose after executing the combo.
(logically i'm also not a big fan of decks like reanimator or sneakshow for the same reason)

instead, i would increase the copies of real important spells in the sideboard such as abrupt decay (up to 3) , xantid swarms (up to 3),...

PIF needs at least 3 DR/RoF, Wish into infernal into AN is 9 mana ... It's all a matter of speed.

P.S.: if you draw 14 cards with Griselbrand and still cannot win, I would ask myself some serious questions.

[alderon666]

Bryant just won a game he shoudn't have. Opponent has double Force + 2 blue cards. Bryant goes Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Burning Wish (Force of Will), Burning Wish (resolves!!!) for Tendrils, Chrome Mox, Petal, Tendrils for 16 while opponent is at 15 with Force + blue card in hand.

[wonderPreaux]

I thought your canadian delver match was pretty interesting. At 6, and with 3 cantrips to back it, I don't think it wouldve been right to mull to 5 even if that hand is a one-lander. I mean, what 5 could you have mulled to that wouldve gotten past Stifle + Wasteland and still been able to win? Anyone who doesn't recognize that as a great opening for RUG in that game is being an idiot.

I also thought the game 2 Xantids were pretty interesting. Given that you're not running Pyroblast, were you just at a shortage of cards to bring in, or were you using the fact that you were on the play to force him to either a) have bolt and thus not be able to waste, hold up stifle/pierce, delver etc. or b) get Swarm going and try to go off t2? I think on the play that can be a pretty good pincer, especially if you had Swarm off a Gemstone Mine.

Great matches, great work, will there be a tourney report to look forward to?

EDIT: Given how much RUG Delver popped up in the top 8, would you consider returning to some number of Pyroblasts, taking that top 8 as a metagame signal? In a more general vein of curiosity, how were you liking the 75 throughout the tournament?

[kavaki]

@Bryan: How did Void Snare perform at the open?

[Dice_Box]

If we wanted to be playing ANT we would be. That's really all there is too it. You don't build a deck like this without looking into the other options as well. Each for our own reasons decided TES was the deck for us. So you can say all you want, I have made my choice, as have many others so your doing yourself no favours by coming here.

[CabalTherapy]

Even bottom feeders have opinions.

Sure, my round against RUG didn't go as planned but he drew incredibly well and I was on the wrong side of variance drawing all four Wishes game one. Game three I mulled and kept a one lander to get hit by the stifle I hadn't seen. Before the round I heard him and Jared talking about how there wasn't room for stifle and probe leading me to believe he didn't have it. Losses happen.

However, I didn't see any ANT in the top 8 either. I think it's very immature that ANT players wave their tiny dicks in this thread when one of them top 8s or I fail to. Grow up, there's room in this format for more than one storm deck. I can't imagine Shardless and BUG delver players go through this childish bullshit.

Also, I'd like to see you beat a turn one Griselbrand.

On the one hand I certainly have forgotten to congratulate you to your top16 finish but on the other hand either my post was a bit misleading or hit on a raw nerve, which was not intended.
I don't want to talk about ANT's results in the US... that's another story, I guess. Nonetheless, I think it's very immature that TES players use genitals as a comperative analogy - really disappointed that you reacted like this.

Sure there are still Belcher, SI and whatever.storm and they all have their warranty in this format. I just wanted to point out the fact that you are TES's figurehead which may lead to the idea that people are playing this deck due to your commitment in developing it further. Nothing bad here.

In fact, beating a turn one Griselbrand is a nice move although I haven't seen it on camera yet. (To state clear: I know that this happened yesterday but wasn't able to see live. Don't get mad. :eek: )



Cutting through the bullshit, this post reeks of jealousy from start to finish. I mean, really? What is this, 2007?


Not sure which post you read but let's stay ontopic, dude.

[Michael Keller]

On the one hand I certainly have forgotten to congratulate you to your top16 finish but on the other hand either my post was a bit misleading or hit on a raw nerve, which was not intended.
I don't want to talk about ANT's results in the US... that's another story, I guess. Nonetheless, I think it's very immature that TES players use genitals as a comperative analogy - really disappointed that you reacted like this.

Perhaps I can help you out in that respect:

I think what winds up happening on The Source is that some folks do extremely well with their pet decks or deck of choice. In this instance, T.E.S. is Bryant's Legacy deck of choice and one that he's been playing for a number of years. In fact, he's been the primary architect on its design for nearly a decade. When someone invests that much time and energy into creating a well-oiled machine and performs brilliantly with it time and time again, it becomes clear that it's not the pilot masking the flaws of the deck - it's the deck masking the flaws of the pilot.

What this means is that while the deck may be difficult to play, there are times when a straight-up double-Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseam is good enough to win a game, flat-out. Grind 'em out affairs and other intricate decision trees, however, require a great deal of intuitive and technical skill and I think that is where the disconnect exists that a lot of Storm players seem to be having between each other. Everyone is verrry protective of their go-to archetypes, and that's fine. But I think the reason Bryant is retaliating that way is due in large part to people not taking the time to actually comprehend the fact that - perhaps - he not only knows what he's doing, he's so comfortable playing the deck that the lines of play open up seemingly at will when he plays it.

This mastery creates aggression in others because they just can't or haven't reached that level of patience and expertise with the deck to play it well consistently. This is why you see a lot of unknowns who make myriads of mistakes in the Open Top 8s due to inexperience, camera fright or inability to play the deck accurately. Again - the deck masks the pilot's flaws in high-level competition.

The fact he's keeping it "interesting and alive to others" is through no fault of his own and that is simply a byproduct of his updates and tournament play; he chooses to play the deck because he excels with it. Mimicry is one of the highest forms of flattery and if other players see someone constantly doing well with a deck or archetype, they're going to gravitate to it no matter what or who it is.

[BloodCovenant]

Also, I'd like to see you beat a turn one Griselbrand.

Have you told them about that match where your opponent conceded when he had the win on the board? I think what... round 5?

Bryant, we chatted for a bit, i said that I switched from ANT to your list. I played all 9 rounds, finished 6-3. got 69th place based on breakers.


Anyways, here's a small Tourny report from Baltimore. Please forgive the formatting and shitty notes. I don't write reports that often.

Rd 1 - Loss to Reanimator. 0-2.
I misplayed game 1, casting Empty for 14 goblins, and not using the back end of cabal therapy to strip his reanimate. He rips entomb off the top and gets Elesh Norn.

Rd 2. - Loss to Miracles. 0-2

Game 2, he kept 2x land, 3x counterbalance, rest in peace, misdirection. I played Probe, land cabal therapy. He misdirects, and i name something that isn't in my hand obviously. Turn 2, i cast infernal tutor to get a second abrupt decay, and am able to destroy both his counterbalances. I continue to draw rituals, but no tutors or dig spells. he lands a jace, and wins.

Rd. 3. Win against u/r delver. 2-0
Game 1, he drops a goblin guide turn 1. My turn 1, i empty my hand into empty the warrens for 12.

Rd 4. Win - opponent never showed up. Bitter sweet.

Rd. 5 Win - show and tell. 2-0

Can't remember what happened game 1, Life totals are at 17/16 in my favor on my notepad. I must have gotten to Ad Naus, and won.


His turn 1 he drops Petal, Land, G. Cage.

Game 2, I kept a really greedy hand of: Petal, brainstorm, LED, Infernal Tutor, G. Probe, Dark Ritual, Ponder. I lead with Probe, and see (Show and Tell, Emrakul, Island, Brainstorm, Misty) Off of probe I draw Infernal tutor. I cast Lotus petal, brainstorm into U.Sea, petal, LED. I put back LED on top, and Tutor underneath.

His turn 2, he show and tells emrakul into play.

My turn 2, i cast ponder, I see another dark ritual.

His turn 3, he swings with emrakul. Dropping me to 3. I sacrifice my only permanent, Underground sea.

My turn 3, I cast Petal, Petal, D. Ritual, Rite of flame, LED, LED, Infernal tutor, cracking both LED's, grab Infernal, Grab Burning wish, Tendrils for 10. Felt pretty good.

Round 6. Win against jund 2-0

Stripped his hand game 1, and went off with tendrils.

Game 2 was a shit show for me. I messed up when I was storming off after Ad naus. I ended up not having enough mana to kill him with tendrils, and I had already cast past in flames, AND used all my mana from the Graveyard. I ended up killing his tarmogoyf, Deathrite, and Liliana with grapeshot. And i still had a good grip to go off hopefully the next turn. I knew his hand was M. Pulse, and Golgari charm, thats why I never cast empty, even though I had 1 cabal therapy in my graveyard. Next turn, my opponent casts liliana, and we both discard, he discards his golgari charm. On my turn, I go off for 14 goblins, and strip his Maelstrom Pulse with my Cabal Therapy from the graveyard. All he has in play is a 6/7 tarmogoyf, while he's at 16 life. I'm at 1 life this whole time. He concedes. I asked where his outs were. He said that he only kept in two lightning bolts, and took out both Punishing fires. Both of his Bolts were already in his graveyard. So his only out was an engineered plague. So that felt good.

Round 7 - Loss to Elves -0-2

Yeah, sucks so much losing to a good matchup. All he did was drop 1-2 beaters. and kept hitting away for 3 points of damage. I never drew what I needed to win.

Game 2 I stripped away two glimpse of natures, which was good. but he had well timed thoughtseizes, and beat me down.

Round 8 - Win against death and taxes. 2-1

Game 1 he lays down a plains, and passes. My turn 1 I drop underground sea and cast cabal therapy in the blind naming thalia. He seemed impressed, I got it. Turn 2 he drops SFM. I cantrip into nothing, he beats with batterskull. (Empty for 10 isn't really that good on turn 4 against death and taxes)

Game 2, I probe, cabal therapy away his thalia. His turn 1 is an aether vial. My turn 2 I Ad naus down to 2 life, and tendrils for 10.

Game 3, he plays another turn 1 Aether vial. My turn 2 is another Ad Naus for the win. Both games 2 and three, he had ethersworn cannonist in his hand when I went off.

Round 9- Win against death and taxes. 2-0

I cannot really remember what happened game 1, but My life total is at 3, and his at 26. I have chicken scratch marks up to 15, so i guess I had either tendrils for 30, or 30 goblins.

Game 2 was another shit show for me. I cast Probe turn 1, saw 2x SMF, 3x Thalia, 1x plains, 1x Cataclysm. I had Ad Naus down to 2 life, and did NOT have the kill on the board. But i had a bunch of cabal therapies in hand and a lot of black mana floating. So naturally, it was only 3 therapies to strip his hand. Felt pretty sweet. His turn 1, he plays a land. Two turns later i get to 10 storm and tendrils.



So overall, i felt pretty good with the list. Like Bryant told me at the event, he was really happy with his current list. I agree. It's really good. It just seems so much stronger then ANT right now, and faster. (I played ANT for like... 6 months). I've been jamming TES for the last two months, probably going to play it for Eternal Extravaganza at Cafferys.

[Bryant Cook]

I thought your canadian delver match was pretty interesting. At 6, and with 3 cantrips to back it, I don't think it wouldve been right to mull to 5 even if that hand is a one-lander. I mean, what 5 could you have mulled to that wouldve gotten past Stifle + Wasteland and still been able to win? Anyone who doesn't recognize that as a great opening for RUG in that game is being an idiot.

That hand was fine, I didn’t think he was playing Stifle as Beottcher and him were discussing how tight the deck was on slots and how he managed to fit in Probe. I was punished, it happens. My deck was on the wrong side of variance, perhaps I’m even for the match I stole against Todd.


I also thought the game 2 Xantids were pretty interesting. Given that you're not running Pyroblast, were you just at a shortage of cards to bring in, or were you using the fact that you were on the play to force him to either a) have bolt and thus not be able to waste, hold up stifle/pierce, delver etc. or b) get Swarm going and try to go off t2? I think on the play that can be a pretty good pincer, especially if you had Swarm off a Gemstone Mine.

I sided them out quickly for game three after seeing he kept in Bolts. He admitted to not being familiar with the match-up and I wanted to see if I could punish him.


Great matches, great work, will there be a tourney report to look forward to?

Not likely, I don’t write reports for not top 8’ing an event. As I said yesterday on a social media page, “It’s top 8 or last place.” I could care less about a top 16.


EDIT: Given how much RUG Delver popped up in the top 8, would you consider returning to some number of Pyroblasts, taking that top 8 as a metagame signal? In a more general vein of curiosity, how were you liking the 75 throughout the tournament?

I have no interest in playing Pyroblast at the moment. My seventy-five was fine, I’m probably not going to run the Massacre again, it’s three or four events in a row I haven’t used it. I’m considering trying out the Pithing Needle approach that Lemnear has been jamming or possibly a Chain of Vapor?

Cabal Ritual was just okay at this event, I’ve noticed how much weaker my Ad Nauseams have been at times with one less Chrome Mox. However, I’ve liked not drawing Moxen in my hand and instead having Cabal Rituals. I’m at a loss, I may try the Tropical in the main again with the third Mox instead of the Rituals. Creating two sideboard slots for Pithing Needle, however, this creates five slots to bring in which is more than likely too many. I have some tinkering to do.


@Bryan: How did Void Snare perform at the open?

Used it twice, once to pitch to Chrome Mox after casting Wish as bait before casting Ad Nauseam. The second time to bounce Leyline of Sanctity game two versus a post variant.


Have you told them about that match where your opponent conceded when he had the win on the board? I think what... round 5?

My opponent did his math wrong when I was at one life, I had to keep flipping - revealed Lion’s Eye Diamond. He counted wrong a second time and then picked them up. Top card of my deck was a Brainstorm and I needed a non-fetchland land to be revealed (Mox or Petal would’ve done too).

In other news, the links below have been added to the opening post.

07-20-2014 Bryant Cook vs. Todd Anderson (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/549083502?t=31h03m30s)

07-20-2014 Bryant Cook vs. Dylan Donegan (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/549083502?t=32h08m00s)

[MiracleMan]

If Massacre is being cut, is it worth adding Deathmark to the board or does Void Snare//grapeshot just deal with the hatebears?

Bryant, you mentioned adding a trop to the main, what would you be cutting for it? (Apologies if you already said and I didn't read it).

[Holly]

Cabal Ritual was just okay at this event, I’ve noticed how much weaker my Ad Nauseams have been at times with one less Chrome Mox. However, I’ve liked not drawing Moxen in my hand and instead having Cabal Rituals. I’m at a loss, I may try the Tropical in the main again with the third Mox instead of the Rituals. Creating two sideboard slots for Pithing Needle, however, this creates five slots to bring in which is more than likely too many. I have some tinkering to do.

[kavaki]

If Massacre is being cut, is it worth adding Deathmark to the board or does Void Snare//grapeshot just deal with the hatebears?

Bryant, you mentioned adding a trop to the main, what would you be cutting for it? (Apologies if you already said and I didn't read it).

sounds like he is considering, but not liking the thought of, cutting the Cabal Rituals for a 3rd Mox and Trop.

[wonderPreaux]

I sided them out quickly for game three after seeing he kept in Bolts. He admitted to not being familiar with the match-up and I wanted to see if I could punish him.
That's some pretty good reads, then. Of course, the reads/mind games stole that game 2 from him later anyway, Swarm or not...


Not likely, I don’t write reports for not top 8’ing an event. As I said yesterday on a social media page, “It’s top 8 or last place.” I could care less about a top 16.
Oh well, better luck next time. Do you have plans for another run at an Open soon?


I have no interest in playing Pyroblast at the moment. My seventy-five was fine, I’m probably not going to run the Massacre again, it’s three or four events in a row I haven’t used it. I’m considering trying out the Pithing Needle approach that Lemnear has been jamming or possibly a Chain of Vapor?
I've been playing with Pithing Needle myself, and I can vouch for it's quality. It's not quite the same approach as Xantid in Griselbrand matches, but i feel its very flexible and relevant in a handful of matchups to make up for it. Why are you no longer interested in Pyroblast? I liked at least 1 to handle Mage and also deal with Clique/SCM/Delver, made tempo a somewhat mroe comfortable matchup.


Cabal Ritual was just okay at this event, I’ve noticed how much weaker my Ad Nauseams have been at times with one less Chrome Mox. However, I’ve liked not drawing Moxen in my hand and instead having Cabal Rituals. I’m at a loss, I may try the Tropical in the main again with the third Mox instead of the Rituals. Creating two sideboard slots for Pithing Needle, however, this creates five slots to bring in which is more than likely too many. I have some tinkering to do.
The swap between Chrome Mox/Cabal Ritual is pretty understandable, I've had lots of matches where I looked at one in the opener/off Ad Nauseam and wished it was the other, or when it really didn't matter which I was holding. I don't know if I'd want Tropical in the main though, it feels so awkward to just have that non-basic Island in a lot of cases. Would 4 Chrome Mox be too disadvantageous these days? or maybe 3rd CM some sort of 1-of mana ritual/tech? If you have a list and don't have time to test, you could PM/post it here and I could run it through some MTGO dailies.

[Bryant Cook]

I've been playing with Pithing Needle myself, and I can vouch for it's quality. It's not quite the same approach as Xantid in Griselbrand matches, but i feel its very flexible and relevant in a handful of matchups to make up for it. Why are you no longer interested in Pyroblast? I liked at least 1 to handle Mage and also deal with Clique/SCM/Delver, made tempo a somewhat mroe comfortable matchup.


The swap between Chrome Mox/Cabal Ritual is pretty understandable, I've had lots of matches where I looked at one in the opener/off Ad Nauseam and wished it was the other, or when it really didn't matter which I was holding. I don't know if I'd want Tropical in the main though, it feels so awkward to just have that non-basic Island in a lot of cases. Would 4 Chrome Mox be too disadvantageous these days? or maybe 3rd CM some sort of 1-of mana ritual/tech? If you have a list and don't have time to test, you could PM/post it here and I could run it through some MTGO dailies.

I've been brainstorming lists this afternoon, I'm not settled on anything. Pyroblasts are in a couple of them, but they're not where I'd like to be. One-of cards aren't great because Infernal can't find a second copy of it, also, I can't see the reasoning for increasing Mox up to four when we don't want to naturally draw them.

Shoving the Tropical Island into the main creates a sideboard slot for more experimenting with cards such as Needle.

[wonderPreaux]

I've been brainstorming lists this afternoon, I'm not settled on anything. Pyroblasts are in a couple of them, but they're not where I'd like to be. One-of cards aren't great because Infernal can't find a second copy of it, also, I can't see the reasoning for increasing Mox up to four when we don't want to naturally draw them.

Shoving the Tropical Island into the main creates a sideboard slot for more experimenting with cards such as Needle.

I don't think I'd really be wanting to Infernal a Pyroblast anyway, I'd be more inclined to have the 1-of just so I can hit off Ad Nauseam and kill Meddling Mage, sorta like how there used to be a 1-of CoV for Leylines.

While I can see why Chrome Mox isn't incredible at 4, I don't think I'd be thrilled to have Trop in the main. It just does so little in game 1, and then in matchups where i'm not wanting Decay/Xantid it slows my hand/gets sided out. Part of the good part about 3 color builds that I/Lemnear have tried is that you don't have an awkward land that only powers cantrips/sb cards, the exchange being you don't have directly powerful effects of Xantid/Decay.

Though, however many colors you want is a digression, my main point is that Tropical is probably better than a 4th CM, but I'm not thrilled by it either. It just feels like it dilutes the deck on it's own and even if Cabal Ritual is "just okay", Rit at least is providing storm count and relevantly colored mana. This might be an incorrect attitude, but I put a lot of stock in winning g1, since siding tends to help opponents more than me (examples: flusterstorm, lol). Thus, maining a card that doesn't pitch in to help g1, so that siding is somewhat improved feels like poor value to me.

You could just run a somewhat generic card like Preordain, if you want to avoid high CMC 1-ofs. You could run a 4cmc bomb like PiF/Tendrils main, since removing 2 Cabal Rituals for CM and a 4 cmc card is the same average cmc for Ad Nauseam, but having the extra CM skews the outcome somewhat in your favor, so you have better Ad Nauseams and possibly more routes to victory (note: your Ad Nauseams are better on average because the average CMC is the same, but there's 1 more CM, so you don't have to go as deep. However, 1 CMC 4 card means the variance is higher, even if on average you should be succeeding more, so, you have a greater capacity to be punished by bad luck, but I don't think thats quite relevant to deck building, just something to keep in mind).

for mana effects, which often are replicated by infernal, you probably would want to just run 2 with 2 CM. the issue i have is that I can't really think of one thats better than cabal ritual in terms of output and we're already playing all the cheaper CMC effects so you cant really improve on that front either :/

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant:
Have you been using grapeshot lately?
EDIT: apart I just feel that t.siland doesn't belong to the base.

@sawatrix
@WonderPreax

I've been using Brybery lately and for my purposes is beeing ok, I also use D.Returns in the side I think these 2 cards in conjunction makes the maths vs several archetypes in the terms of speed, but what I like from TES is the ability to resolve puzzles vs the differents we can face via B.W.

a) I just use D.Returns vs Discard, Dredge ,as a WinInAturn button piece, sometimes just because its the unique chance of winning. one puzzle piece
b) Bribery is an A.N 7 mana cost or even better as you dont need to discard your hand to get it! vs Reanimator and S&T, this fact was beeing demonstrated in some mutch ups I played lately. another puzzle piece
c) I just use EtW vs Agro in general as main strategy so grabbing I.T. is sometimes a remote strategy -> so no need from any target of b.w. apart of tendrils or discard
d) I just win control match ups with Jedy mind tricks -> so no need from any target of b.w. apart of tendrils or discard - i.t.
e) V.snare in conjunction to massacre makes g.shot a redundant puzzle tool.

The con is just 1 less side space. i just to add decays, more discard and pyro or xantid - I've beeing confortable to just add more discard to batle S&T or likes, just potentiating the discard or win strategy. really I just don't do much.

EDT: Also wonderpreaux, having 1 pyro vs m.mage does not worth it, you can or not with A.N and does not work the same way as CoV. as you can not PiF to grab it. so playing 2 grws up the chances to the double.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't think I'd really be wanting to Infernal a Pyroblast anyway, I'd be more inclined to have the 1-of just so I can hit off Ad Nauseam and kill Meddling Mage, sorta like how there used to be a 1-of CoV for Leylines.

My one-of comment was at Cabal Ritual. Not Pyroblast.


While I can see why Chrome Mox isn't incredible at 4, I don't think I'd be thrilled to have Trop in the main. It just does so little in game 1, and then in matchups where i'm not wanting Decay/Xantid it slows my hand/gets sided out. Part of the good part about 3 color builds that I/Lemnear have tried is that you don't have an awkward land that only powers cantrips/sb cards, the exchange being you don't have directly powerful effects of Xantid/Decay.
You're missing the point, it's not about how useful it is at all. It's about conserving sideboard space. I have little interest in cutting green.


Though, however many colors you want is a digression, my main point is that Tropical is probably better than a 4th CM, but I'm not thrilled by it either. It just feels like it dilutes the deck on it's own and even if Cabal Ritual is "just okay", Rit at least is providing storm count and relevantly colored mana. This might be an incorrect attitude, but I put a lot of stock in winning g1, since siding tends to help opponents more than me (examples: flusterstorm, lol). Thus, maining a card that doesn't pitch in to help g1, so that siding is somewhat improved feels like poor value to me.

Four Chrome Mox used to be a staple, but drawing them in multiples is fairly miserable. Which is why the current lists play less than four, I don't want to put myself in those situations.


You could just run a somewhat generic card like Preordain, if you want to avoid high CMC 1-ofs. You could run a 4cmc bomb like PiF/Tendrils main, since removing 2 Cabal Rituals for CM and a 4 cmc card is the same average cmc for Ad Nauseam, but having the extra CM skews the outcome somewhat in your favor, so you have better Ad Nauseams and possibly more routes to victory (note: your Ad Nauseams are better on average because the average CMC is the same, but there's 1 more CM, so you don't have to go as deep. However, 1 CMC 4 card means the variance is higher, even if on average you should be succeeding more, so, you have a greater capacity to be punished by bad luck, but I don't think thats quite relevant to deck building, just something to keep in mind).

for mana effects, which often are replicated by infernal, you probably would want to just run 2 with 2 CM. the issue i have is that I can't really think of one thats better than cabal ritual in terms of output and we're already playing all the cheaper CMC effects so you cant really improve on that front either :/[/QUOTE]

I'll figure it out. A main deck Tendrils may be fine, but I rarely want one. As of right now, if I do remove Cabal Rituals it will be to slide the Tropical in. But who knows?

[wonderPreaux]

My one-of comment was at Cabal Ritual. Not Pyroblast.
Ah, ok, that makes more sense


You're missing the point, it's not about how useful it is at all. It's about conserving sideboard space. I have little interest in cutting green.
I get that it's about SB space, I'm just of the opinion that we get less value out of improving the SB than other decks, especially when we get that space by carrying Trop in the main. If you're dropping Massacre, you could just shave that and a Xantid for 2 Pithing Needles anyway, since Needle and Xantid sounds incredible in Griselbrand matchups. Needle also performs well against Miracles, so you could drop to 2 Decays and fit some other card in. Though, idk what new plans youre brainstorming, you might be really strapped for space in the SB for all I know.


I'll figure it out. A main deck Tendrils may be fine, but I rarely want one. As of right now, if I do remove Cabal Rituals it will be to slide the Tropical in. But who knows?
Tendrils could be interesting, opens up the occasional Infernal Tutor chain, gives us some relief from Extraction and control matchups might benefit from it. Aside from that, all I can think of are weird cards like Dimir/Sapphire Charm, lol. Trop might just be the best of a whole lot of "meh" cards, its too bad we cant just run 5 Infernal Tutors in the 75

[d0nkey]

Tendrils could be interesting, opens up the occasional Infernal Tutor chain, gives us some relief from Extraction and control matchups might benefit from it. Aside from that, all I can think of are weird cards like Dimir/Sapphire Charm, lol. Trop might just be the best of a whole lot of "meh" cards, its too bad we cant just run 5 Infernal Tutors in the 75


I have often wanted to side the tendrils in but never would I want it main without one also in the board. If we are conserving sideboard space, I will probably add the second copy.

[wonderPreaux]

I have often wanted to side the tendrils in but never would I want it main without one also in the board. If we are conserving sideboard space, I will probably add the second copy.

I side the Tendrils in anyway if I have to subvert Extractions, since we have a sb Infernal Tutor. Maining a Tendrils just lets you off the hook for that and gives you some occasional spell-chain lines. Also, if you main a Tendrils and side an I. Tutor, you can ramp up mana, and then go Wish > Tutor > Tendrils in addition to being able to Wish > Tutor > Wish > Tendrils, so you get that natural line at both inflection points.

@Bryant: didn't you have a list a few months that had 6 discard, 2 Cabal Ritual and 3 Chrome Mox? You'd have 2 Cabal Rituals for Infernal Tutor, 3 Chrome Mox for Ad Nauseam, why not run that? If 6 discard isn't enough you could keep 7 discard and drop a Ponder, perhaps.

EDIT: Ok, so this is my last idea on what to do with Cabal Ritual's slots. I think a good thing to do with them, and the thing Im going to test either tomorrow or wednesday, is replacing the 2 Cabal Rituals with Chrome Mox and Simian Spirit Guide. SSG is super-old-school, and probably isn't very attractive at 3cmc but I think it provides what I'm looking for: better Ad Nauseams. Compared to 2 Cabal Rituals, SSG + Chrome Mox is 1 CMC less, so your average flip is less damage, and SSG and Chrome Mox are both initial mana sources, so you can Ad Nauseam with nothing floating more often or, more generally, just not have to dig as deep. The issue with one-ofs that you can't use with I. Tutor isn't relevant with SSG because SSG doesn't benefit from multiples and also isn't a spell, but it isn't as god-awful as opening 2 Chrome Mox.

SSG also has fringe benefits as a castable 2/2, it flashes back Cabal Therapy against control, and can stall Meddling Mage/Canonist while you dig for solutions. As I mentioned before, I'll test this either tomorrow or the day after and report back. Considering I picked up a playset on MTGO for 12.4 cents apiece, I won't exactly be crushed if this doesn't go well. If it turns out to be a bust, I guess I'll just get hyped for Tropical Island in the main. Happy storming, everyone.

[Lemnear]

I'd rather run a MB PIF than a MB Tendrils to open up the line of BW -> IT -> PIF -> IT -> BW -> ToA. Personally, I kept the 4th infernal in the MB as my usual mid-/lategame plan is IT -> BW -> PIF -> IT -> BW -> ToA.

For the discussion about the CR-or-not topic, I kinda miss the point being made that the 2 CR + 12 Lands + 2 Moxen version had only 18 IMS while the one with 13 lands and 3 Moxen has 20. For my taste that is a significant difference for hitting IMS' for both, starting hands and AN flips while lowering the average damage dealt to yourself by flipping cards to the 5cc instant.

In regards to SB, I can see a 2/2/2 split between Decay/Needle/Xantid to have a total of 4 slots to board for Miracles/Griselbrand.dec (we did a similar split with Pyroblast as well).


EDIT: Ok, so this is my last idea on what to do with Cabal Ritual's slots. I think a good thing to do with them, and the thing Im going to test either tomorrow or wednesday, is replacing the 2 Cabal Rituals with Chrome Mox and Simian Spirit Guide. SSG is super-old-school, and probably isn't very attractive at 3cmc but I think it provides what I'm looking for: better Ad Nauseams. Compared to 2 Cabal Rituals, SSG + Chrome Mox is 1 CMC less, so your average flip is less damage, and SSG and Chrome Mox are both initial mana sources, so you can Ad Nauseam with nothing floating more often or, more generally, just not have to dig as deep. The issue with one-ofs that you can't use with I. Tutor isn't relevant with SSG because SSG doesn't benefit from multiples and also isn't a spell, but it isn't as god-awful as opening 2 Chrome Mox.

SSG also has fringe benefits as a castable 2/2, it flashes back Cabal Therapy against control, and can stall Meddling Mage/Canonist while you dig for solutions. As I mentioned before, I'll test this either tomorrow or the day after and report back. Considering I picked up a playset on MTGO for 12.4 cents apiece, I won't exactly be crushed if this doesn't go well. If it turns out to be a bust, I guess I'll just get hyped for Tropical Island in the main. Happy storming, everyone.

I don't see this making much sense. You have one more IMS here for casting AN fast, but its a horrible card to reveal to AN as well

By the way, I would not squeeze in discard for the cost of cutting a Ponder

[wonderPreaux]

I don't see this making much sense. You have one more IMS here for casting AN fast, but its a horrible card to reveal to AN as well

By the way, I would not squeeze in discard for the cost of cutting a Ponder

Chrome Mox and SSG over 2 Cabal Rituals is lower average CMC, and an additional IMS post Ad Nauseam. statistically speaking, the success rate should increase if i have a lower cost to turn cards over and lower average number of card that i need to turn over. the only thing SSG's cost really does to diminish AdN is increase the variance involved as one card cost more than it's replacement and the other costs less. If I get hit for 3 off SSG, yes, that does suck, but if I then don't have to keep turning cards over to find Petal or w/e, I forgo possible damages from multiple cantrips/discard etc.

[Lemnear]

Chrome Mox and SSG over 2 Cabal Rituals is lower average CMC, and an additional IMS post Ad Nauseam. statistically speaking, the success rate should increase if i have a lower cost to turn cards over and lower average number of card that i need to turn over. the only thing SSG's cost really does to diminish AdN is increase the variance involved as one card cost more than it's replacement and the other costs less. If I get hit for 3 off SSG, yes, that does suck, but if I then don't have to keep turning cards over to find Petal or w/e, I forgo possible damages from multiple cantrips/discard etc.

We can't create a statistic middle for damage for only 2 cards here and compare 2 Cabal Rituals to Mox+Land or Mox+SSG and say, "well, if I reveal both cards in question, Mox+SSG does less damage, so it's better".

I stick with 13 lands maindeck for better starting grips and one more SB slot

[wonderPreaux]

We can't create a statistic middle for damage for only 2 cards here and compare 2 Cabal Rituals to Mox+Land or Mox+SSG and say, "well, if I reveal both cards in question, Mox+SSG does less damage, so it's better".

I stick with 13 lands maindeck for better starting grips and one more SB slot

its not a statistical middle, the average cmc of the top card of your whole deck drops if you remove 2 possible 2cmc cards and replace them with a 0cmc and 3cmc card. since the average cmc of the top card of your deck is lower, you can turn over more cards on average without losing all your life. with more IMS, you don't need to turn over as many to reach 1 or 2 IMS, or however many you require. thus you are more likely to find the needed IMS and have an average amount of life lost that is less than your life total when ad nauseam resolves. the only issue is variance,the fact that while the average is lower, the actual result now sits in a wider range of actual possible results. I could calculate the relative impact of the change in variance versus the change in average success rate, but given the dependencies of life total, library size/composition and hand composition, that could take me hundreds of hours.

Like any prospective change, I'm gonna go at it with an open mind and try it out. If it's absolutely terrible, or a totally nutter SB that needs all 15 slots to warrant mained Trop comes to my attention, I'll switch off. But if the EV on SSG is even marginally greater than the variance increase vis-a-vis personal risk aversion, it is an improvement to the deck's primary win condition, and I think thats worth investigating.

[Lemnear]

its not a statistical middle, the average cmc of the top card of your whole deck drops if you remove 2 possible 2cmc cards and replace them with a 0cmc and 3cmc card. since the average cmc of the top card of your deck is lower, you can turn over more cards on average without losing all your life. with more IMS, you don't need to turn over as many to reach 1 or 2 IMS, or however many you require. thus you are more likely to find the needed IMS and have an average amount of life lost that is less than your life total when ad nauseam resolves. the only issue is variance,the fact that while the average is lower, the actual result now sits in a wider range of actual possible results. I could calculate the relative impact of the change in variance versus the change in average success rate, but given the dependencies of life total, library size/composition and hand composition, that could take me hundreds of hours.

Like any prospective change, I'm gonna go at it with an open mind and try it out. If it's absolutely terrible, or a totally nutter SB that needs all 15 slots to warrant mained Trop comes to my attention, I'll switch off. But if the EV on SSG is even marginally greater than the variance increase vis-a-vis personal risk aversion, it is an improvement to the deck's primary win condition, and I think thats worth investigating.

You can calculate how many more cards you can turn over for Ad Nauseam if you'd reveal the 13th land instead of the SSG for instance or evaluate the +3 for two damage off a CR instead of the +1 for three damage off SSG. Picking on a single manacost removed in total in a 60 card deck isn't worth the discussion of average cmc; the value of the card in hand or if being revealed to AN is and I doubt that revealing a land (which can be a needed IMS too) and drawing like 2-4 extra cards (to find Moxen/Petals/etc) is worse than revealing a SSG as a guaranteed IMS instead

[Asthereal]

When Ad Nauseam first can out I played 4x Simian Spirit Guide next to multiple Ad Nauseams.
Guide hurts, but the mana also helps to win. Running into a second Ad Nauseam was a big problem, otoh.
So if one here is to try Guides again, don't worry about your Ad Nauseam, unless you run multiple copies of it.

Funny thing. A couple of weeks ago I too suggested we could reintroduce Simian Spirit Guide.
I felt it fit TES better than the Cabal Rituals that have been tried for some time now.
I would be very interested in testing results or tournament reports of a TES list with Guides!

[Lemnear]

When Ad Nauseam first can out I played 4x Simian Spirit Guide next to multiple Ad Nauseams.
Guide hurts, but the mana also helps to win. Running into a second Ad Nauseam was a big problem, otoh.
So if one here is to try Guides again, don't worry about your Ad Nauseam, unless you run multiple copies of it.

Funny thing: a couple of weeks ago I suggested we could reintroduce Simian Spirit Guide.
I felt it fit TES better than the Cabal Rituals that have been tried for some time now.
I would be very interested in testing results or tournament reports of a TES list with Guides!

There as the talk about running one Guide instead of the 13th land (with one more free SB slot as a result), which is not compareable with a build including SSG as a backbone for fast mana

Edit: The time you tested the 4 SSG was also long before Delver and friends

[Asthereal]

There as the talk about running one Guide instead of the 13th land (with one more free SB slot as a result), which is not compareable with a build including SSG as a backbone for fast mana
True. But I'd be interested nonetheless.
I am not saying we should run 4x Guide.
Just 1-2 would be an interesting starting point.

[Lemnear]

True. But I'd be interested nonetheless.
I am not saying we should run 4x Guide.
Just 1-2 would be an interesting starting point.

I just prefer flipping 2-4 extra cards, possibly including Lands, Petals, Moxen and Rituals, instead of any SSG. I guess you get my POV here

[Asthereal]

I just prefer flipping 2-4 extra cards, possibly including Petals, Moxen and Rituals, instead of any SSG. I guess you get my POV here
It can be better, absolutely. I have encountered situations both ways. Hard to tell what's best in the long run if we don't have statistics to back it up.

EDIT: Just saw your edit from before. I never "tested" 4x Guide. It was in my early days as a combo player. I had just started playing Magic again. I ran 4x Guide because TES just ran 4x Guide. Ad Nauseam had just been released (2008), and I ran an excessive three copies at first. Lots of turn one kills though. I opened the big tourney with four turn one kills in a row.
Don't let the meta from back then fool you into thinking the hate was weak, though. I had to fight against decks like Countertop Thresh, Eva Green, the original Team America (with Sinkhole, Stifle, Thoughtseize), Dreadstill Countertop and It's The Fear. Without Probes, of course. Also, Staxx was a big thing back then. Pretty awesome meta, if I think back to it...

[Bryant Cook]

4 Gemstone Mine
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast // Pithing Needle
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

This is what I'll be testing again soon. My only issue is having five cards to side in and out versus Sneak Show/Miracles will be tough, what do we side out at that point? -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Chrome Mox, -3 Ponder?

Also, I've considered this:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

One more Thoughtseize allows a sideboardable discard spell over the third Xantid if I find myself liking Pithing Needle.

[wonderPreaux]

Doesn't 3 Decay and 2 Pithing seem like a bit too much for Miracles? Those Ponders can be pretty valuable, wouldn't wanna be siding out so many, I think the 2/2/2 split of decay/xantid/needle would probably be best.

[Asthereal]

Call me crazy, but I am seriously thinking about trying Taiga instead of Tropical. Taiga + Sea casts any spell in the list, so I never have to choose between fetching a combo colour or a sideboard colour. The deck only plays 8 cards that require blue mana anyway (apart from the sideboard Void Snare, of course).

What do you guys think? Terrible idea?

[wonderPreaux]

Call me crazy, but I am seriously thinking about trying Taiga instead of Tropical. Taiga + Sea casts any spell in the list, so I never have to choose between fetching a combo colour or a sideboard colour. The deck only plays 8 cards that require blue mana anyway (apart from the sideboard Void Snare, of course).

What do you guys think? Terrible idea?

The 8 spells Trop does cast are the important set-up spells you often want turn 1. It's the same reason why Badlands never made it here either, you look at an opener of Taiga/Badlands + Brainstorm/Ponder and then hate your life.

[Asthereal]

The 8 spells Trop does cast are the important set-up spells you often want turn 1. It's the same reason why Badlands never made it here either, you look at an opener of Taiga/Badlands + Brainstorm/Ponder and then hate your life.
True, but it's the 13th land anyway. If we have no issues on 12 lands, we shouldn't have issues on 12 u-lands + Taiga. At least, that's my thought. I feel I often have more issues in getting 3 lands, than in getting one that makes blue.

Anyway, I'm just putting it out there. Do with it what you will.

[Bryant Cook]

Doesn't 3 Decay and 2 Pithing seem like a bit too much for Miracles? Those Ponders can be pretty valuable, wouldn't wanna be siding out so many, I think the 2/2/2 split of decay/xantid/needle would probably be best.

Miracles is incredibly popular and I've been running into a lot of Chalice of the Void as of late. I'm not playing less than three copies of Decay.

[wonderPreaux]

True, but it's the 13th land anyway. If we have no issues on 12 lands, we shouldn't have issues on 12 u-lands + Taiga. At least, that's my thought. I feel I often have more issues in getting 3 lands, than in getting one that makes blue.

Anyway, I'm just putting it out there. Do with it what you will.

Right, I see what you mean with the 12 U-lands, though the 13th land is supposed to help stability too, not just cast SB cards. if it doesn't play the cards we use to develop then it could cause as many problems as it might fix. Also, with 12 or 13 we just aren't playing a lot of lands either way, and if I open a 1-lander, and it's Taiga, I can't cantrip into another land. One good thing about Taiga, though, is it's still totally compatible with the fetchland suite of tarn/misty.

[Lemnear]

Call me crazy, but I am seriously thinking about trying Taiga instead of Tropical. Taiga + Sea casts any spell in the list, so I never have to choose between fetching a combo colour or a sideboard colour. The deck only plays 8 cards that require blue mana anyway (apart from the sideboard Void Snare, of course).

What do you guys think? Terrible idea?

On the other side you also have only 8 red spells. I apprechiate the idea of making 4 colors playable off 2 lands, but I have bad memories about that approach in bUrg Delver. :/

[Bryant Cook]

Doesn't 3 Decay and 2 Pithing seem like a bit too much for Miracles? Those Ponders can be pretty valuable, wouldn't wanna be siding out so many, I think the 2/2/2 split of decay/xantid/needle would probably be best.

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle // Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

You may've been right, I don't hate this.

[Lemnear]

In regards to SB, I can see a 2/2/2 split between Decay/Needle/Xantid to have a total of 4 slots to board for Miracles/Griselbrand.dec (we did a similar split with Pyroblast as well).


Doesn't 3 Decay and 2 Pithing seem like a bit too much for Miracles? Those Ponders can be pretty valuable, wouldn't wanna be siding out so many, I think the 2/2/2 split of decay/xantid/needle would probably be best.


2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle // Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

You may've been right, I don't hate this.

;D

[d0nkey]

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle // Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

You may've been right, I don't hate this.

With Void Snare as a wish target, what are you bringing in the CoV for?

[Bryant Cook]

With Void Snare as a wish target, what are you bringing in the CoV for?

Elves/Death & Taxes/Randomness/Chalice Decks/Burn.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

After I hopefully don't scrub out of Standard this weekend, I'll be running this in Kansas City.

4 Gemstone Mine
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

[wonderPreaux]

Elves/Death & Taxes/Randomness/Chalice Decks/Burn.

but you have abrupt decay for those decks too, and pithing needle curbs elves and randomness at the same time.
Couldn't you move one of those CoV for the Trop and then have that open slot in the main?

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tropical Island
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

I'd say this SB looks pretty balanced, regardless of what you use that 60th slot for.

[Asthereal]

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle // Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

You may've been right, I don't hate this.
I would vote for this -1 Chain, +1 Thoughtseize.


On the other side you also have only 8 red spells. I apprechiate the idea of making 4 colors playable off 2 lands, but I have bad memories about that approach in bUrg Delver. :/
Yeah I'd rather try Bayou too (casts more relevant spells), but Bayou+Volcanic doesn't cast Decay...
I still have to test the Taiga. If I like it, I will post it here.

[Bryant Cook]

but you have abrupt decay for those decks too, and pithing needle curbs elves and randomness at the same time.
Couldn't you move one of those CoV for the Trop and then have that open slot in the main?

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tropical Island
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

I'd say this SB looks pretty balanced, regardless of what you use that 60th slot for.

There's nothing else I want to play in the main, that's the issue. What exactly does Needle do against Elves? Decay is often pretty slow, while Chain doesn't take a full turn to cast – especially against Death & Taxes.

Also, I like how we're arguing about an off color land to cast a two-to-three of in our deck. We're adding in Tropical to increase consistency while casting Decay. Taiga can't do this as it doesn't cast Ponder.

[vercadium]

I'm going to walk through my thought process here:

I agree with adding the 3rd Chrome Mox and Tropical Island into the main-deck as I have found the drop in artifact mana post Ad Nauseam quite noticeable. The 13th land has always been something of a toss-up and is awful at times, but I don't think anyone can argue that the rise in consistency is a welcome addition.

Cabal Ritual was fine for me over the period we have been using it, even though getting threshold was against our, ideally, turn 1/2 kill. Both Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox are great after casting Ad Nauseam, but one is much better with mana floating and the other improves our Ad Nauseam's with 0 floating. I often cast my Ad Nauseams with the latter being the case. For this reason, I think I'd rather have the 3rd Chrome Mox despite it being awful in multiples.

With 1 gone, that leaves just 1 Cabal Ritual. I wouldn't run just 1 Cabal Ritual due to a lack of Infernal Tutor synergy, which is why I'm ok with the Tropical Island being switched into the maindeck. It's not thrilling, but it does free up a sideboard slot which is likely better than our other options for that 60th card.

I'd be fine with moving the Tropical Island back to the sideboard if we could free up another slot so 2 Cabal Ritual fit, but the only thing I could even suggest cutting would be the 3rd Duress and I'm not sure if I can recommend that.

One thing worth noting is that now, without Cabal Ritual, the sideboard Infernal Tutor becomes worse as generating enough mana for those loops is harder. The addition of Cabal Ritual was a key argument for that change in the first place. This was also an influence behind the removal of Diminishing Returns from the sideboard, as Past in Flames gained a lot of strength from Cabal Ritual.

I haven't missed Diminishing Returns, but without Cabal Rituals main-deck, there's a chance that I would rather have the 60th card as the 4th Infernal Tutor main-deck than a Tropical Island (for Game 1).

That said, there are a lot of other advantages to having the Infernal Tutor in the sideboard - the flexibility is really nice; effectively allowing one to convert one tutor into another. It also provides a little defense against cards like Surgical Extraction. Having lived with these perks for a while now, I'm not sure I'd ever want to go back to playing without them.

On that note, if we're cutting Cabal Ritual and going with the 3rd Chrome Mox again, we are firmly back in the camp of being the best T1/2 Ad Nauseam deck we can be. So with that in mind, despite its flaws, making Burning Wish able to fetch Ad Nauseam is probably the correct choice.

I'd love to hear all your thoughts on this, but for now I'm rolling with -2 Cabal Ritual, +1 Tropical Island, +1 Chrome Mox.

Bryant, there was a time in the not too distant past when you had multiple Thoughtseize main-deck as you did not want to be caught in situations were your discard could not hit a Vendilion Clique, Hatebears etc. Royce disagreed and ran Duress. At this time you stated that the Duress could be correct and that you would consider cutting Massacre, but if one ran the main-deck Duress list that the Massacre was probably required.

Could you talk a little about your thought process here? I assume the life-loss was simply too great, but it could just as easily be metagame flucuations that changed your mind on these points. Thanks.

Well, that's my opinion on the main-deck changes. This is getting too long, so I'll post my thoughts on the sideboard later.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm going to walk through my thought process here:

I agree with adding the 3rd Chrome Mox and Tropical Island into the main-deck as I have found the drop in artifact mana post Ad Nauseam quite noticeable. The 13th land has always been something of a toss-up and is awful at times, but I don't think anyone can argue that the rise in consistency is a welcome addition.

Cabal Ritual was fine for me over the period we have been using it, even though getting threshold was against our, ideally, turn 1/2 kill. Both Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox are great after casting Ad Nauseam, but one is much better with mana floating and the other improves our Ad Nauseam's with 0 floating. I often cast my Ad Nauseams with the latter being the case. For this reason, I think I'd rather have the 3rd Chrome Mox despite it being awful in multiples.

With 1 gone, that leaves just 1 Cabal Ritual. I wouldn't run just 1 Cabal Ritual due to a lack of Infernal Tutor synergy, which is why I'm ok with the Tropical Island being switched into the maindeck. It's not thrilling, but it does free up a sideboard slot which is likely better than our other options for that 60th card.

I'd be fine with moving the Tropical Island back to the sideboard if we could free up another slot so 2 Cabal Ritual fit, but the only thing I could even suggest cutting would be the 3rd Duress and I'm not sure if I can recommend that.

One thing worth noting is that now, without Cabal Ritual, the sideboard Infernal Tutor becomes worse as generating enough mana for those loops is harder. The addition of Cabal Ritual was a key argument for that change in the first place. This was also an influence behind the removal of Diminishing Returns from the sideboard, as Past in Flames gained a lot of strength from Cabal Ritual.

I haven't missed Diminishing Returns, but without Cabal Rituals main-deck, there's a chance that I would rather have the 60th card as the 4th Infernal Tutor main-deck than a Tropical Island (for Game 1).

That said, there are a lot of other advantages to having the Infernal Tutor in the sideboard - the flexibility is really nice; effectively allowing one to convert one tutor into another. It also provides a little defense against cards like Surgical Extraction. Having lived with these perks for a while now, I'm not sure I'd ever want to go back to playing without them.

On that note, if we're cutting Cabal Ritual and going with the 3rd Chrome Mox again, we are firmly back in the camp of being the best T1/2 Ad Nauseam deck we can be. So with that in mind, despite its flaws, making Burning Wish able to fetch Ad Nauseam is probably the correct choice.

I'd love to hear all your thoughts on this, but for now I'm rolling with -2 Cabal Ritual, +1 Tropical Island, +1 Chrome Mox.

Bryant, there was a time in the not too distant past when you had multiple Thoughtseize main-deck as you did not want to be caught in situations were your discard could not hit a Vendilion Clique, Hatebears etc. Royce disagreed and ran Duress. At this time you stated that the Duress could be correct and that you would consider cutting Massacre, but if one ran the main-deck Duress list that the Massacre was probably required.

Could you talk a little about your thought process here? I assume the life-loss was simply too great, but it could just as easily be metagame flucuations that changed your mind on these points. Thanks.

Well, that's my opinion on the main-deck changes. This is getting too long, so I'll post my thoughts on the sideboard later.

We seem to share similar thought patterns in a lot of aspects. However, I still would like to keep Infernal in the sideboard as it's not difficult to pull off without Cabal Ritual. Watch my match versus Todd Anderson from this past weekend, I accomplished it game one. Not to mention, Wish for Empty is effectively stronger now as we can Wish for Infernal to grab Empty the Warrens generating more "bros".

It appears to me that hatebear decks are at a low, I haven't faced them in multiple events or if I have I just ran them over. Thoughtseize's lifeloss just isn't worth it at the moment, it could be if those decks picked up again or we could just add Massacre back in.

[seilaquem]

Hi again,

I've been storming around for 2 years, but I recently changed to the UWR delver to defeat a specific deck... (and by specific, i mean someone specific)

So, I have a lot of trouble beating omnitell decks.... Is it a hard matchup for TES? or should I just ANT him, for it has a better matchup against this deck...?

[vercadium]

We seem to share similar thought patterns in a lot of aspects. However, I still would like to keep Infernal in the sideboard as it's not difficult to pull off without Cabal Ritual. Watch my match versus Todd Anderson from this past weekend, I accomplished it game one. Not to mention, Wish for Empty is effectively stronger now as we can Wish for Infernal to grab Empty the Warrens generating more "bros".

It appears to me that hatebear decks are at a low, I haven't faced them in multiple events or if I have I just ran them over. Thoughtseize's lifeloss just isn't worth it at the moment, it could be if those decks picked up again or we could just add Massacre back in.

Agreed on all of the above. At a glance, it does seem like a big increase, but it's really just 2 mana extra and opens up a lot of lines. Honestly, I had forgot to consider that it adds to the strength of Empty the Warrens. That's a great point and a pretty significant boon. Given that I already decided to stick with the sideboard Infernal Tutor prior to considering that, any doubts I had have now been allayed. Thanks.

I'm writing up my thoughts on the sideboard at the moment.


Hi again,

I've been storming around for 2 years, but I recently changed to the UWR delver to defeat a specific deck... (and by specific, i mean someone specific)

So, I have a lot of trouble beating omnitell decks.... Is it a hard matchup for TES? or should I just ANT him, for it has a better matchup against this deck...?

I haven't found Omnitell difficult, I believe it's a favourable match-up. They're quite a slow combo deck, so value your discard highly and play as the aggressor. Test the matchup and be aware of its intracies. There's a fair bit of depth to playing against Cunning Wish, so be sure you're knowledgeable about the options they have.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Pithing Needle targets...

Wasteland
Sensei's Divining Top
Sneak Attack
Griselbrand
Stoneforge Mystic
Fetchlands

What else? (Keeping Gitaxian Probe in mind...)

[wonderPreaux]

Pithing Needle targets...

Wasteland
Sensei's Divining Top
Sneak Attack
Griselbrand
Stoneforge Mystic
Fetchlands

What else? (Keeping Gitaxian Probe in mind...)

DRS burn/heal
Symbiote/Quiron
Cephalid Coliseum
Candelabra
Eye of Ugin
Aether Vial
Engineered Explosives
Equipment cards
Planeswalker cards
Charbelcher/Undercity Informer
Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage
Seige-Gang Commander
Cursecatcher
Forgemaster
Rishadan Port

EDIT:
Goblin Welder
Grindstone
Scavenging Ooze
Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb
Queasy Pridemage
Knight of the Reliquary
Man-land Cards
Grim Lavamancer
Vampire Hexmage
Sterling Grove
Academy Ruins

That's some relevant and less-than-relevant targets to keep you interested

[Lemnear]

Pithing Needle targets...

Wasteland
Sensei's Divining Top
Sneak Attack
Griselbrand
Stoneforge Mystic
Fetchlands
DRS
Engineered Explosives
K. Forgemaster
Pernicious Deed
Jitte or other equipment
Aether Vial
Rishadan Port
Candelabra
Expedition Map

Sure I forgot more

What else? (Keeping Gitaxian Probe in mind...)

Edit: i think the Applications against combo decks like Belcher and Oops! all Spells! is highly relevant.

P.S.: You can kill ALL DRS abilities not just 2 as the ability removes a land to add a mana to you manapool and is ergo not a mana-ability

[wonderPreaux]

Edit: i think the Applications against combo decks like Belcher and Oops! all Spells! is highly relevant.

P.S.: You can kill ALL DRS abilities not just 2 as the ability removes a land to add a mana to you manapool and is ergo not a mana-ability

I agree, fuck those dream-crushers

re: DRS, wow, that is pretty cool

[Pelikanudo]

I agree, fuck those dream-crushers

re: DRS, wow, that is pretty cool

the question is: will you side in both nedles vs BUG Tempo and variants - meaning you now have targets for their A.D.?

I'm not sure if they take them out all A.D., if so then could be relevant. I really think DRS is not a bad issue or at least a good reason to side in 2 specific cards for it, maybe sure it handles Wasteland, is enough? I don't think so

Anyway I would like to analyze how would you side p.nelde vs some archetypes.

I could include the card in Miracles, S&T, Charbelcher, reanimator. - I really see the card as a parity between Griselbrand and Senseis, thats why maybe its a good idea, instead of playing more decays and xantids/pyro.

I don't see the card in D&T, BUG, RUG, you have already enough cards vs D&T., maybe vs goblins..., realted to RUG, I dont find neccessary to side in vs this archetype, maybe you can as they dont have artifact destroyed vs you and will not include it. but dont think it's needed, I personally play pyro , so, for those that don't play pyro maybe could be ok...

maybe in Blades, - I would not put it in here either.

EDIT: RaNDoMxGeSTuReS, I try to do my best. I fixed some things, but please don't agregate me to your footer!

[Lemnear]

That's the tricky point: just because you find targets in your opponents deck, it does not equal boarding PN's. I can see treating Wastelands decks different depending on the shell.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

That's the tricky point: just because you find targets in your opponents deck, it does not equal boarding PN's. I can see treating Wastelands decks different depending on the shell.

I figure if I'm losing against Daze Aggro decks, it's going to be because of Wasteland. So needle seems like a fine choice.

Also Pelikanudo? Can you like actually type your posts so I can understand them?

[wonderPreaux]

the question is: will you side in both nedles vs BUG Tempo and variants - meaning you now have targets for their A.D.?

I'm not sure if they take them out all A.D., if so then could be relevant. I really think DRS is not a bad issue or at least a good reason to side in 2 specific cards for it, maybe sure it handles Wasteland, is enough? I don't think so

Any way I would like to analyze how would you side p.nelde vs decks.

I see in the card in Miracles, S&T, Charbelcher, reanimator. - I really see the card as a parity between Griselbrand and Senseis, thats why maybe its a good idea, instead of playing more decays and xantids/pyro.

I don't see the card in D&T, BUG, RUG, you have already enough cards vs D&T., maybe vs goblins...

maybe in Blades, - I would not put it in here either.

Miracles/Grisel-decks/Charbelcher/Oops: I'm happy bringing in 2 Needles, Needle against Miracles is pretty strong, especially on the play.
Painter/Esperblade: I would be fine bringing Needle in here, but it isn't as strong. Maybe a singleton needle would be best. I've only played Needle against Painter once and i just Ad Nauseam'd the following turn, so idek how good it is. I think I do want it against Blade decks, because stopping EE is relevant, and forcing them to tap out for Batterskull delays their already slow clock even more.
D&T/Goblins: Might play one against either, hitting their Vial is potent, but I feel it's not worth as much against D&T because simply discarding their Batterskull can be a decisive win after any sort of EtW play.
BUG w/e: Possibly good against BUG, since the more you can lay on the table, the less they can discard. Idek if I'd mind them having Decay game3 or w/e, because it's irrelevant to interacting with my combo.
RUG Delver: Maybe on the draw it could be good as a one-of, im not sure if wasteland alone is good enough reason for Needle, but just swapping a single ponder for a needle seems fine to me.

[wonderPreaux]

Hey guys, I had a situation come up against LED-Dredge and wanted to see what you all thought of it:

Game 1, turn 1, I play a fetch and pass.

Opponent jumps in by playing Cephalid Coliseum, LED. Then Careful Study, cracking LED for red and discarding Faithless Looting + Dredgers. All told, he Dredges around 25 cards, including several Dredgers, 1 Cabal Therapy, 2 Ichorids, 2 Bridges, 2 Dread Returns. However, he discarded one Narcomoeba to LED, and dredged no others. He also didn't dredge a high-value revival target like Flayer/Griselbrand/Iona. He simply flipped half his deck and passed to me.

Turn 2 I lay another land and Brainstorm. My hand before sending 2 back is: Misty Rainforest, LED, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Gitaxian Probe, Cabal Therapy, Lotus Petal. Now, with an uncracked fetch, LED, and a Lotus Petal, I should have no trouble getting the colors I need, the main issue is what to actually do this turn.

Path 1: Wait. By sending back Burning Wish and Dark Ritual, laying my artifact mana and passing, I am somewhat protected from discard and if no interference comes around, I would have 9 mana for the Ad Nauseam line, which at this point I'm one mana short on. However, that would require cracking 2 fetches, paying a Phyrexian Probe, and getting hit by 2 Ichorids at least. Ad Nauseam with no floating, no land drop, and 10 life maximum. Not fun.

Path 2: Storm out for Goblins. Putting back fetch and Therapy. Probe, pick up Therapy. Crack Fetch for either U. Sea/V. Island, Play Petal. Play Rite and D. Rit. LED, Wish, crack LED in response. Grab Infernal Tutor into Warrens for 18 (1 mana short of being able to play Therapy before Wish and Tendrils for 20, opponent is at 19). Now, flashback the discarded Therapy to kill both Bridges. At this point, the opponent has 19 life, and a deck of all kinds of possible meanness, but 2 fewer Bridges and their big opener already used versus 17 Goblins and an otherwise inactive opponent (I've got 2 lands though, so, that's cool).

Path 3: Gamble on Probe. Putting back fetch and Therapy, crack the initial fetch. Now, if Probe for life hits any of either 3 Petals, 3 LED, 3 Rite or 3 D. Rit, or 4 Infernal Tutor, the game is pretty much won on the spot due to Ad Nauseam from 17. however, if any of the other 34 cards come up, you miss the line. Hitting Cabal Therapy puts you on path 2, not hitting Therapy leaves you with a much worse path 2. Hitting a Brainstorm gives you the chance to hit a combo of I. Tutor + D. Rit/LED, Rite/LED/Petal + Rite/LED/Petal to go off, but that's pretty low odds. Also, you now have no defense from the Cabal Therapying that would doubtless be happening the following turn if a combo comes up because your whole hand is gas.

Path 1 is probably many sorts of awful, but I'd like to see what people think of path 2 and 3.

[kavaki]

If I am reading path 2 correct, (Opponent on 19, You have 17 Goblins and he loses his 2 bridges), I kinda like that path the most. Its been a long time since I did probability, but as it stands, he'll have 3 Narco left in his 35 card deck. It seems like all he needs here is a Narcomoeba/Ichorid and a DR Target. However, the one thing that sticks out is that, at least to me, he only has 2 real outs on that route:

1. Griselbrand: I dont believe you can race that, although having the higher life gives you a small chance of maybe doing so (I havent run the math).
2. Flayer into Grave-Troll: Its likely a win for him if he gets this.

It really comes down to if you feel you can win in those 2 turns vs the chance of him hitting that.

Personally, I'd go for path 2 and swing with 15/16 goblins. Leaving one or two back allows you to capitalize on him if he swings with Ichorids with Bridges in the yard. It also doesnt change the clock.

(Disclaimer: I suck at Magic, so take from my words what you will.)

[wonderPreaux]

If I am reading path 2 correct, (Opponent on 19, You have 17 Goblins and he loses his 2 bridges), I kinda like that path the most. Its been a long time since I did probability, but as it stands, he'll have 3 Narco left in his 35 card deck. It seems like all he needs here is a Narcomoeba/Ichorid and a DR Target. However, the one thing that sticks out is that, at least to me, he only has 2 real outs on that route:

1. Griselbrand: I dont believe you can race that, although having the higher life gives you a small chance of maybe doing so (I havent run the math).
2. Flayer into Grave-Troll: Its likely a win for him if he gets this.

It really comes down to if you feel you can win in those 2 turns vs the chance of him hitting that.

Personally, I'd go for path 2 and swing with 15/16 goblins. Leaving one or two back allows you to capitalize on him if he swings with Ichorids with Bridges in the yard. It also doesnt change the clock.

(Disclaimer: I suck at Magic, so take from my words what you will.)

If he hits Griselbrand, he'll just pay 7, dredge his deck, and combo-kill me, so i definitely can't race that. even w/o Flayer I think hitting all the Narc and Bridges would make it impossible for Goblins to make it.