[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[PartyMonster]

Thank you.


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[Lemnear]

An opinion by which someone will blame me:
I find 0 sense playing basics in a TES build.

I'm not sure if Lem agrees, but playing 2 basics in a build with 13 lands is beeing very optimistic.
To compress the deck you need to play polivalent lands.

Just my opinion.

Even of it has absolutely no relevance if I agree, I do in this particular case, because I consider this deck working on full 3 colors in it's base unlike ANT which is totally fine on UB as long as it can generate somehow a sole red mana for the PIF loop. ANTs manabase would look a lot different if PIF would cost double red, a combination of mana we need more often (and thus run Rite of Flame) not only because of Wish -> EtW but because of fishing PIF from the Sideboard and other scenarios. I'm not a big fan of limiting myself by running Basics "just" because of the presence of Wasteland. We increased the number of Lands over the years just for surviving against a Wasteland and /or Daze

I keep my philosophy, to rather lose and replace a land than limiting myself colorwise for the Virtual advantage of Wasteland "only" producing colorless mana

[Bryant Cook]

Even of it has absolutely no relevance if I agree, I do in this particular case, because I consider this deck working on full 3 colors in it's base unlike ANT which is totally fine on UB as long as it can generate somehow a sole red mana for the PIF loop. ANTs manabase would look a lot different if PIF would cost double red, a combination of mana we need more often (and thus run Rite of Flame) not only because of Wish -> EtW but because of fishing PIF from the Sideboard and other scenarios. I'm not a big fan of limiting myself by running Basics "just" because of the presence of Wasteland. We increased the number of Lands over the years just for surviving against a Wasteland and /or Daze

I keep my philosophy, to rather lose and replace a land than limiting myself colorwise for the Virtual advantage of Wasteland "only" producing colorless mana

The problem I see with this argument is that Basic Island & Swamp are competing for the slot of Bayou and a single fetchland. We're not trading red sources for basics, we're trading Bayou at the cost of a sideboard slot - that's the real issue I see. Also, I think it's sort of tough to argue about needing different colors of mana when you often advocate colorless lands.

[bigbobbobber]

Just got back from the weekly Legacy event and tried out Overmaster. Turns out, Duress is a lot better against Bloodmoon and Chalice. The card draw in my few games i cast it was neutral. I guess being able to strip them of pretty much anything is better than drawing a card that will just get discarded to LED.

[Bryant Cook]

Not shocked by the results of Overmaster. It wasn't a new find, it's been recommended more than a handful of times.

I played in a 12 person weekly last night, not making top 2 at 3-1. My loss was to Reanimator, even with two Surgical Extraction. I won game one, but couldn't close with my sideboarded hate (I never drew Xantid Swarm or Surgical either game). In the last round I beat Sneak & Show, he had three Leyline of Sanctity in his sideboard, luckily he didn't draw any in his opener game two as I cut Void Snare right before the event for Surgical Extractions.

In these two match-ups I tried something a little different, I sided out the basics as it's a match-up where we don't need consistency - we need speed. -2 Basics -1 Chrome Mox/Ponder(s)/Empty the Warrens for Bayou and Xantid Swarm/Surgical. (I didn't bring in Surgical against S&T)

I never had the opportunity to play against a fair deck with Wasteland to see how the results of the basics.

[Lemnear]

The problem I see with this argument is that Basic Island & Swamp are competing for the slot of Bayou and a single fetchland. We're not trading red sources for basics, we're trading Bayou at the cost of a sideboard slot - that's the real issue I see. Also, I think it's sort of tough to argue about needing different colors of mana when you often advocate colorless lands.

A fetch can produce all colors of mana, but drawing an Island instead does not. Bayou vs. basic is pretty much the same value preboard. My issue is that basics make not only questionable openers more likely, but are too alluring to fetch early because you have Wasteland in the back of your head and unless your opponent indeed has, you needlessly limited yourself for the Rest of the game. I'm very careful with including Safety Net options which can bite your ass. I'm willing to swallow the pill of losing a land here and there with 17 IMS in my deck.

I advocate for the Sol Lands in place of the Moxen because the Artifacts do not guarantee to provide a mana in the right color anyways. The most likely Situation, in which they produce on-color combo-mana, is if you have additional Wishes/Tutors/discard to imprint. The purpose of the Sol Lands is still a different one than colorfixing. I don't want to run into a situation of Island, Mox, Probe, RoF, Ponder, discard, Wish. That would give me a chill.

[Bryant Cook]

A fetch can produce all colors of mana, but drawing an Island instead does not. Bayou vs. basic is pretty much the same value preboard. My issue is that basics make not only questionable openers more likely, but are too alluring to fetch early because you have Wasteland in the back of your head and unless your opponent indeed has, you needlessly limited yourself for the Rest of the game. I'm very careful with including Safety Net options which can bite your ass. I'm willing to swallow the pill of losing a land here and there with 17 IMS in my deck.

I advocate for the Sol Lands in place of the Moxen because the Artifacts do not guarantee to provide a mana in the right color anyways. The most likely Situation, in which they produce on-color combo-mana, is if you have additional Wishes/Tutors/discard to imprint. The purpose of the Sol Lands is still a different one than colorfixing. I don't want to run into a situation of Island, Mox, Probe, RoF, Ponder, discard, Wish. That would give me a chill.

The value of having a virtually indestructible mana source in several match-ups outweighs the downside of the one in fifty odds that you draw a basic Island and can't cast anything else. When fetching for a basic, you need to evaluate your hand. If the hand requires all three colors on the following turn which is turn 2, you may want to consider searching for a non-basic land. But on the same note, turn one Basic Swamp into Duress against RUG Delver will allow a turn two win through their Wastelands. I just don't see a real downside to the basics at the moment other than the cost of a sideboard Bayou.

Chrome Mox doesn't need to produce red, your fetchlands can search for a Volcanic and the mox can provide a secondary color. It's very easy to dismiss things in a vacuum, but actual gameplay is very different.

[Togores]

Hello folks yesterday I won a 31 ppl event with tes. Here a short report.

2-0
Bugw with lingering and therapy
G1 I just make 14 tokens in a moment and win.
I dont see white i side nothing
And the He plays a meddling and I had sided out the emtpy due yo jim palying golgary and explosives (i saw ruins).
He asumes I sidded decay. And I burry with bs all my burning so that he sees that i have mana and infernal because I had therapy. He then end up sacrificing the mage before drawing another guy. And I won not so much later.

2-1 foodchain
G1 i go off
G2 he combos and bounces all woth tidespout tiran.
I have nothin in field and lethal field in the oposite.
My hand is:
Volcanic
Underground
Infernal
Led
Rite of flame
So if i draw a petal or so I win because he is hellbend
Draw land gg
G3 xantid plus decay his foodchain is game.

2-1
Ug cloudpost
I know what he plays and keep a slow hand but i kill hom turn 3-4
He plays. Chalice on 0
He want to play anothrr on 0 but notes that it gets countered. I therapy he brainstorm and i note he keeps the chalice. I name it.
He had 2 chalice on top.
So chalice for one.
My hand now eas gutaxians led petal so with 2 lands I burning for empty. And he plays chalice on 2 next turn and Dont draw 2 lands I need and end up loosing to titans and so.
G3 decay a chalice go of win.

2-0 miracles
G1 duress and going off he bs but dosnt find a fow on tunr 3.
G2 i go of againt anothrr bs. He dosnt find for but finds amothrr bs so he now fetches bs and find fow.
I have 2 led 2 lands.
He has pierce.
I draw infernal. He was taped. Because of playing top.
And has 2 lands.
I now he has pierce and a white tutor. So i gamble a lot when I draw infernal (im sure i played bad here)
I go sure of myself for infernl crack led on red and black and he tutors for counterbalance. Then he thinks a lot of if he looks with his mana or pierces. If he pierces i loose. But he knows i know about pierce so he think i could play empty for 3 and he has no explosives or terminus in deck.
So he looks finds no fow and i nauseam him to dead.

2-0 esper blade
G1 he mulls to 4 keeping nemesis, seize, swamp and another non blue card.
I have:
Gitaxian
2 lands
2 leds
1 rof
1 ritual
So i keep
I start gitaxian into gitaxian into petal and pass
He seizes me and takes a led i draw infernal go for it without cracking something. He draw fow and then A cuple turns latter i wish for pif to get card advanthe im able to recover and win with infernal with led into ritual into pif flashback and there he flyes.
G2 he start land go.
I gitaxian and have strong hand without tutor. I see explosives, 2 counters, fluster, vendilion. And he donst have a second land. He draws one and plays explosives for 0. I draw play land go. T3 i draw infernal. Play third land and duress fluster proof he missplays and counters it so i just go petal, rituals, led infernal gg.

So wining is nice.

Thoughts
I never got wastelanded wich is strange.
I never wished for seize
I wished for infenral a cuple times
I only did empty one time (round1) and sidded it a lot.
I thought what what would happens if x land where a basic. I think was not really good.
Xantid was boarded one time vs cloidpost but after seeing so much artifact hate i boarded one out.
Massacre was never used.
I wished on time for piroclasm but nevrr got to use it because it was not relevant anymore.
2-3 moxen was sided a lot of time out. Vs control decks i sidded like 2 mox 1 empty for 3 decay. Or if empty was good 3 mox for 3 decay.

So liked the list. Here it is:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal tutor

Tomorrow I have mothly legacy event idk if ant or tes is better. Will se what i decide (there is more controlish meta and sdt and the ability to grind may seem better).
Keep on stormers

[Pelikanudo]

@Togores:

Good luck in the 1st 2015 LML Madrid, I won't be able to assist... so please play TES and win the tournament for me.
Remember you have 0 Top 8 with TES in the LML, me 2 (could have been 3.... because of you!). I recognize it is difficult to Top8 in LML with TES, but thats the beauty of playing TES, it is just more challenging than playing with ANT...

[Togores]

May be more chalenging. But i wanna win and decide what deck is better for it.
Also I have 2 tops there with ant. I just played last year one time tes. And luck was not on my side.
Lets see what I sleeve tomorrow.

[Lemnear]

Thoughts
I never got wastelanded wich is strange.
I never wished for seize
I wished for infenral a cuple times
I only did empty one time (round1) and sidded it a lot.
I thought what what would happens if x land where a basic. I think was not really good.
Xantid was boarded one time vs cloidpost but after seeing so much artifact hate i boarded one out.
Massacre was never used.
I wished on time for piroclasm but nevrr got to use it because it was not relevant anymore.
2-3 moxen was sided a lot of time out. Vs control decks i sidded like 2 mox 1 empty for 3 decay. Or if empty was good 3 mox for 3 decay.

Congratz. I consider this tournament the very first sign of what to expect for the near future and I'm not surprised to see Emrakul/Griselbrand.dec, SFM.dec and Miracles here. I predicted that BUG Delver/Team America will join them to create the Top 4 of the forseeable metagame in the next weeks. Therefore I'm unsure if we have to expect a serious Wasteland-Penetration and have to react. I only use the SB discard against slow control decks and as boarding slot in place of the EtW against Storm, so maybe I should finally shave it myself. In terms of EtW, we need to watch the metagame if the x/1 hate remains even after Pyromancer with the predictable return of TNN. I suspect we have to deal with hatebears and especially Meddling Mage more frequently from now on; if Massacre (or a wishable answer at all) remains a to-go slot is up for discussion (EE, huh? ;P). I share the Observation about boarding Moxen and EtWs in most matches and therefore have no intention to return those cards to my Maindeck.

P.S.: Picking TES just because it's more challenging is nonsense, Peli. Rodrigo will pck the storm variant which is best fitting for the metagame he expects.

P.P.S.: Good luck for 2morrow. Drop a line here if you find the time ;P

Edit: If the Penetration of Fatty.dec is going to spike because of Blade and Miracles, I'm about to consider running Bribery again.

[Pelikanudo]

P.S.: Picking TES just because it's more challenging is nonsense, Peli. Rodrigo will pck the storm variant which is best fitting for the metagame he expects.

.

For me at least has sense, I play magic as a hobby and see ANT a more plain deck with less options, and definately less funny, I remeber my boss talking to me in terms of Toys instead of Work...
likely for the next torunament I try Solidarity as example.

Rodrigo, last year I played 3 times TES, reaching 2 top8 and 1 YOU didnt allowed to reach the 3rd, I won't forget this...that's among others a difference between you and me. I really enjoy the part of just playing Magic, I just hate the part that makes people have such ambition to just win...

I wonder why Bryant usually never plays ANT... sure he says is a worse deck... Joke.

[Togores]

For me playing and and tes makes the same fun. So then I just have to select if i wanna to play more. Because i enjoy more burning wish and fast nauseams or i wanna to grind games. Also wich deck is better for each meta.

[Bryant Cook]

I did some testing versus UWr Stoneblade today (3-1 in total matches). The basics were awesome versus absolutely awesome and never once was I color screwed. Finally some testing against a deck with Wastelands.

[Lemnear]

For me at least has sense, I play magic as a hobby and see ANT a more plain deck with less options, and definately less funny, I remeber my boss talking to me in terms of Toys instead of Work...
likely for the next torunament I try Solidarity as example.

Rodrigo, last year I played 3 times TES, reaching 2 top8 and 1 YOU didnt allowed to reach the 3rd, I won't forget this...that's among others a difference between you and me. I really enjoy the part of just playing Magic, I just hate the part that makes people have such ambition to just win...

I wonder why Bryant usually never plays ANT... sure he says is a worse deck... Joke.

The idea of tuning the deck to "win" is that keeps the thread and deck alive ;D

[redhamjack]

Hey guys. I wound up getting 2nd today at our monthly tourney. 34 people showed up. 6 rounds of Swiss.

R1 v Elves. I combo t2 both games.
R2 v Chalice Merfolk. Game 1 he lands a t2 chalice at 1. Gogo main deck cabal ritual into a lethal adnauseum. G2 I'm faster and discard his action.
R3 I beat my buddy on lands.
R4 I beat sneak and show. G1 I win quickly after empty plus cabal therapy leaves him with only lands. When I showed in an Xantid to his Grizzle g2 he knew it was done. Unfortunately my ad naus misses and we go to G3. I don't miss twice.
R5&6 double draw.

Top 8 I played my R1 elves opponent again. T2 him twice again.

Top 4 I played BW control (discard, small pox, etc) goblins wins g1, g2 I'm faster than his t3 lilly.

I lost in finals to URW. He had double meddling Mage G3. I lost G1 to delver and all of the permission spells.

I was running a version similar to what I ran before. 12 lands, SB Bayou, but I did switch out gemstone for swamp/island. I was never color screwed and the flexibility was nice in a couple of the match ups. I'll have to keep testing this.

I'm still tinkering with my SB, but I'm not liking Pyroclasms. I just usually want massacre or nothing, and revealing them to Ad Naus sucks. I'm not sure REB would have been much better.


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[Lemnear]

I'm still tinkering with my SB, but I'm not liking Pyroclasms. I just usually want massacre or nothing, and revealing them to Ad Naus sucks.

Why is this the case? Double Meddling Mage looks like a victim to Pyroclasm.

[redhamjack]

I agree. Except I never found them naturally. I only saw one when I was mid ad naus and looking for a led or wish. I just think they're redundant. A burning wish for massacre would have done the same thing G3, except once I found the red source, the Mage was already naming Wish.

Maybe I need to test with Pyroclasm more and against a broader meta, but it felt unnecessary today. For example against elves g2 I went off with it in hand t2 instead of taking the 4 for 1.

I'm considering running a sb discard spell so I can go up to 7 in the main, plus running another Xantid in the board.


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[Togores]

Usualy when you play basics and sb bayou what land you side out for fitting the bayou? The island or the swamp? May be none and just go up 14 lands? Both and go to 12 lands?
I think the swamp is the obvius answer but i dont know.

[Lemnear]

I agree. Except I never found them naturally. I only saw one when I was mid ad naus and looking for a led or wish. I just think they're redundant. A burning wish for massacre would have done the same thing G3, except once I found the red source, the Mage was already naming Wish.

Maybe I need to test with Pyroclasm more and against a broader meta, but it felt unnecessary today. For example against elves g2 I went off with it in hand t2 instead of taking the 4 for 1.

I'm considering running a sb discard spell so I can go up to 7 in the main, plus running another Xantid in the board.


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In games 2 & 3 against anything that is running Medding Mage, the Wizards comes down on Burning Wish, rendering Massacre pointless, which primary has it's use to break free from creature-based locks in game 1s and against non-blue White matchups (D&T, Maverick, etc.). This means that you are required to run MB solutions to MM in any case, no matter if those are named Decay, Lightning Bolt, Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives, Pyroblast, etc.

[Bryant Cook]

Usualy when you play basics and sb bayou what land you side out for fitting the bayou? The island or the swamp? May be none and just go up 14 lands? Both and go to 12 lands?
I think the swamp is the obvius answer but i dont know.

It depends on the match-ups:

Combo (S&T/Reanimator) - Side out both Basics, you're not looking for Stability and Mox is better for faster kills.
Control (Miracles) - Side out all three Chrome Mox, Empty, Swamp and a Ponder. (Bayou, 3 Decay, 2 Swarm)

[redhamjack]

In games 2 & 3 against anything that is running Medding Mage, the Wizards comes down on Burning Wish, rendering Massacre pointless, which primary has it's use to break free from creature-based locks in game 1s and against non-blue White matchups (D&T, Maverick, etc.). This means that you are required to run MB solutions to MM in any case, no matter if those are named Decay, Lightning Bolt, Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives, Pyroblast, etc.


You are correct. I've actually been having some success with Chains of Vapor to bounce them, might stick to that over the Pyroclasms.


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[Togores]

So tournament ended and I yoloed with the basic land list.
Ender top 4 of the 50 ppl event loosing to lands.
Report and so will follow later or tomorrow.

[Togores]

Posted my report here on the report part but also copy here so there can be a direct way of looking for it.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29101-JEDI-mind-tricks-a-win-and-a-Top-4-wth-TES-in-Madrid&p=863900#post863900




Hello today I reached the top 4 of the monthly legacy league of Madrid (Spain) featuring 50 players with TES (The EPIC Storm!!!1!1!!!), despite having played lately ANT much more I wanted to give it a try again and I thought it was a good metacall due to the more hatebears and so decks that were rising on my meta. Tes is a turn 2 deck while and is a turn 3 deck, that matters when you want to fight chalice and hatebears. Also with the banning of Treasure Cruise DRS would come back and Past in flames does not like this one mana planeswalker.
of friday I went to a 30 people event with tes featuring no basics and won. And in the beginning I wanted to play ANT in the league because usually there are more control decks and ANT is more able to fight a longer game because of the 2 senseis divining top I play maindeck. But after wining with tes I just wanted to YOLO and went to play the new version with a few basics also anticipating the comeback of wasteland. And I was on the steak because I also won yesterday the monthly vintage league with Monastery Mentor remora deck (Its just overpowered the guy in vintage), so making it in the weekend 3 eternal tournaments a win would be really awesome over 9000.

This was the list I sleeved in and went to shuffle like a boss:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Void Snare
1 Bayou
2 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Massacre

I like the massacre to have something to wish for with burning that costs no mana when thalia comes down and the rest is more or less usual. So lets start!

Round 1 miracles
Game one he keeps sensei and counterbalance and I therapy sensei and duress the counterbalance just to win that turn.
I side in xantid because I know he is not a bix expert of the deck and maybe he board out all the spot removal.
+3 xantid
+3 decay
+1 bayou
-1 empty
-3 mox
-2 ponder
- 1 island (because post board I have 4 islands and also s 4 swamps and making duress then ritual is great)

Game two I have a mediocre hand of:
2 Burnign wish
Bayou
Gitaxian
2 decay
Xantid
SHOULD i HAVE MULLIGAN THIS ON THE DRAW?

May be my hand was bad but I had greed land for decay, and I was on the draw. He plays a land and passes.I draw a therapy and gitaxian him seeing this:
Volcanic
Jace
Counterbalance
Tundra
Flooded
Scalding
Not a really a good hand… With the Gitaxian I draw duress, so thats party. Therapy counterbalance because It could get bad if i don't draw mana for decay soon and pass. He plays a land and passes. I draw something thats not good and duress him, he found a brainstorm and lets jace the second on top showing me only lands. So I pass he plays a land and passes. I draw another blank and pass, jace comes down. Until two turns later and two jace brainstorm and a top I get to find a second land. While this I had played a xantid that got forced and then another that got bounced. Some turns latter Im dead.

Game three we get to moment where we I draw and have:
2 lands in play
And in hand:
LED
Infernal
Ad nauseam
Dark ritual
Therapy

He says stop and Vendilions me with one mana left, so I think he might be desperate and does the bad players Vendilion because he feels not safe. And here is the point, I really don't care what he takes but for me the best one is the dark ritual and the worst is the led because without ritual i can fire of nauseam and with led I can't also not fire it. Taking the led is a huge mistake due to me drawing any mana source is win. There is some justice in life and draw a petal. I evaluate the situation and get to the result he has nothing. And my game is not going any better after he untaps and start attacking. So I YOLO and Nauseam, he lets it resolve and I win. After this he show me a counterspell in hand But that Vendilion costed him the game.
2-1

1-0 total

Round 2 Maverik
He usually like to play GW decks like zoo or maverik But i'm much more sure when I look at his lifepad. His life go to 21, 22, 23 and his opponents to 19, 17, 11, 5. So this seems a few hits, a few swords and a big reliquary hitting two times for 6.
ALWAYS CHANGE THE PAPER OF YOUR SCORE PADS, I HAVE KNOW WHAT SO MANY OPPONENTS PLAY JUST LOOKING AT THE LIFE…
So I keep a hand that makes 10 tokens turn one on the play and get there easy.
-3 duress
+2 pyroclasm
+1 infernal

Game two was weird because he starts with bojuka on me. I prove him seeing a thalia, a tegg, 2 moms, knight and a fetch. that quite a good hand. And mine is kinda slow. He plays the mother next turn and I therapy thalia. having pyroclasm in hand. He doesn't have a second land.. He obviously draws a canopy and plays tegg. I have to wait. Now I have a problem. I ponder and see the burning I was missing in my full mana hand but the other 2 cards are blanks, and I can't answer the mon + tegg so and will die. So I shuffle and draw a blank. He plays the knight attacks for two and passes. I draw blank and he attacked with his tegg and knight for 5. I'm at 10 now, then he plays the second mom. On my turn I draw blank and Pyroclasm him, He ask is its too all creatures and bins all 3… HE DIDN'T USE HIS ONE MOM TO GIVE PROTECTION TO THE TEGG If I would have know that the game would have been fast over. I draw 3 more turns no business and loose.

Game 3
My hand is:
underground
Dark ritual
infernal
rite of flame
brainstorm
island
misty
I know he plays discard so I have a turn 2 win, So I just play underground and pass, If he wasteland me I just time walk me into more cards if not I win.
He also plays the seize and I cast brainstorm drawing infernal, chrome, led. I put island under led so any card he takes I win next turn. he tries to time walk my hellbent taking the mox that would have imprinted the second infernal and I draw led and nauseam with 1 red mana floating and thats game.
2-1

2-0 total

Round 3
I know he plays merfolks and he know i'm on storm, He says that please don't make him 1.000.000 tokens first turn. So I write on my lifepad:
PLAN 1: 1000000 goblins
PLAN 2: DONT LOSE

My hand of 7 has only petal as mana and my hand of 6 has no mana. So I go down to 5 of burning, land and 3 duress. Not really good but he also mulled to 6. He starts with vial, I duress, see phantasmal, nemesis a lord and a land. Then he plays the lord. I get to empty the warrens for 10 and therapy from him 2 phantasmal. But his lord, the nemesis and a mura get to kill all my tokens being him at 8 lifes when I keep 5 tokens, I need 2 more mana to make a tendrils but I never get to them and die to his alpha strike of 15 lethals.
I side:
+3 xantid
+ bayou
-1 swamp
-2 mox
-1 ponder

I play a fast xantid but have no win, while this he beating me down and has a dead swansong in hand, he is quite happy that i'm at seven life so he got rid of nauseam. I'm one mana short to past in flames loop him, so I smile and say that he should have now be so happy, my nauseam is good enough. I xantid and go for nauseam at 7 LIFE with no mana but also no landrop. So a few cards like led, burning, petal land and ritual later I go to two life and win against his angry face of wtf you lucksack.

Now I reboard because of his chalice and also because he starts.
+3 xantid
+3 decay
+1 bayou
-1 swamp
-1 mox
-2 ponder
-2 therapy
-1 empty (I saw jitte and I always get raced)

He keeps and plays vial on one, passes and then says like: oh, wait, Hmm ok yes your turn… This seems like a chalice… I drop a xantid and 2 leds and a petal and pass. He curses himself and says that now he will be have to play the chalice on one… he plays a cursecatcher and a silvergill and attacks then plays a second silvergill. I also attack with xantid and then cast infernal into nauseam paying into his cursecatcher. I stop on 8 life so that with his 2 silvergill he would need 2 lords and a land to win, which he didn't has for sure, he also has a jitte with 2 counters. So next turn I have to do impossible to win. I start with a xantid hit (he has 2 cards in hand and I assume no counters so he is trying to win the jitte life route) and then decay on the chalice. Now I have to play a brainstorm and draw a ritual and get rewarded. Now my hand is:
therapy
2 burning
2 dark ritual
1 rite of flame
with one infernal and one dark ritual in grave and 2 lands and a mox in play.
I go like:
dark ritual BBB 3 (decay 1 and Brainstorm 2)
dark ritual BBBBB 4
Rite of flame RR BBBBB 5
Burning for past in flames R BBBB 6 and a land untaped
Tap land R BBBBBB 6
Cabal therapy myself on burning R BBBBB 7
Past in flames B 8
dark ritual BBBBBBB 11
infernal for led BBBBB 12 (I had to get hellbender)
Led for red BBBBB RRR 13
Burning wish for tendrils 15 (Also that why I had to discard with therapy so it has flashback)
GG
My opponent has a cage in hand but having to play the chalice on one stopped that.
2-1

3-0 total

Round 4 Canadian
Game one he is just beating with a mungo and I destroy his hand, he is hellbent and I can go fo next turn while I have now 15 lifes. I have a duress to be sure he can't draw a counter and I'm able to go of post duress. He draws a wasteland and gets rid of my volcanic (he already destroyed the other before) So I draw no red source I need to combo and pass. He draws bolts me and his mungo now gets threshold and I go to 8 after his swing. Still no red source pass. He attack me to 5 and passes. Still no red so I pass. He swings making me go 2 and show me a fresh top decked bolt.

Side nothing Muahahhaha

Game two I smell he has Vendilion and I make a cool brainstorm into an nauseam play so that he can't Vendilion me. I'm at 16 lifes when the vendilion comes and I just fetched for a volcanic to go off vs his wasteland, So I have island, swamp, mox on black and he wastelands my volcanic. I have to play the other volcanic because nauseam let me on 4 lifes so I can stand a Vendilion hit and win. Brainstorm to try to find card and have the top card setted up. He Vendilions my empty WTF? instead of the burning wish and I have to go of next turn with duress backup to his already no counter hand. Seems good right? He top decks wasteland kills my red I need to go of and I'm dead…

0-2 he wasted my happiness

3-1 total

Go make a break to eat and come back latter.
Some cool spanish food later…

Round 5 UWR Stoneforge control THE MOST FUCKIN ROUND FOR ME
Game one is quite simple, I know he has 2 dig, fow and pierce, sfm, explosives with 4 lands. I duress his fow and then therapy him, he makes pierce I don't pay. I YOLO again on the dig because my hand Is not really good and after resolving one and him having more chances to win is easy. I just go all in with infernal. He digs and if he find pierce or fow i'm dead. I get really fucking lucky and win BAM HEADSHOT

I side like this:
+3 decay
+1 bayou
-1 swamp
-2 mox
-1 empty

He plays a mage, I decay, He plays a vendilion I decay,He plays another mage and another Vendlion and when I get too see his hand he has 2 fow a pierce and My hand has no discard almost no tutor because of the Vendilion and Im on 11 lifes. I'm dead 3 turns after.

Now I reside like this
+2 decay
+2 pyroclasm
+1 bayou
-1 island (I always needed more black)
-2 mox
-1 empty
-1 ponder
I should have sided the tendrils in games where long and I was able to get 8 cards strong hand to just natural storm him.

So games 3 is ONE OF THE BEST JEDI MIND TRICKS I HAVE DONE.
This game is really long where i have in one moment a hand of 3 infernal to when I draw a discard just copy it. I have already used 1 burning (for infernal) and other 2 get countered, My opponent has a cage. I have killed with 2 pyroclasm 2 mages and the game is draw go. He has a mage on therapy, karakas and Vendlion and at one point with 2 fow 8 mana and a sword in hand. I'm at 3 lifes so I die next turn. After draw he plays the Vendlion he bounced with karakas in his turn. And sees:
2 infernal tutor
3 dark ritual
2 led
1 mox
1 rite of flame
I have a petal and 3 lands in play.
So he says I keep and he is sure its impossible to lose. like 20 players are looking at us and I give a smile and say so its over. I go straight to try to win this impossible game.
I have to say my opponent is a good player but has not played in the past years much and I had this in mind SO MAY BE I CAN JEDY HIM.
With all security of myself I go rite of flame, he says ok, I play 1 dark ritual ask if it resolves 3 times and it does. second dark ritual also resolves (Here i don't ask) One led, he thinks and also resolves, second also resolves. no my hand is:
2 infernal
1 mox
1 dark ritual
and a huge ton of mana.
I go really sure of myself Infernal tutor and say In response dark ritual!!!!
He shortcuts and starts asking himself why im doing this weird thing while I still have 2 cards in hand. Ask for the mana in pool and also asks for storm (if I search tendrils its lethal) he gets nervous and says, fuck I misplayed how could I have been so dumb. Seems like my shortcut plan worked. He end up hardcasting the fow and I just cast the other infernal and he concedes.
YUHU!!!! my plan worked, that he thought of my sure of going of moves and the weird infernal into ritual (not to dodge Vendlion) made him think far to much and ended misplaying. He thought that now I could just before infernal resolves crack led and because its mana ability he could not counter and was dead. I knew may be that he does not play much lately and my form of playing really sure of myself and so could make this happens (already happened another time where I played a infernal into a snare and responded with cabal to snare so he let all resolve and my only card in hand was lethal tendrils while he had lethal next turn and a fow in hand and after casting cabal I had no mana in pool and was dead. people make weird decisions when you cast a ritual in response to a business). His friends naming my opponent bad and the people watching doesn't believing he misplayed so and me playing so great.
Note: I never said another thing thats misrepresenting information, like explaining wrong something or so. I just played my cards and asked for responses and so.

2-1
4-1 totoal

Round 6 Junk pox
ID

I ended 6th of the swiss

Top 8 UWbg Stoneforge with DRS lingering and decays
Hes starts playing with island go and I have a really strong hand:
2 led
1 gitaxian
1 delta
1 undergound
1 dark ritual
1 brainstorm
1 rite of flame
I play gitaxian and see this:
Counterspell
Batterskull
Polluted
flooded
Jitte
Sword to plowshares
Not a good hand what to say and to his bad hand I just TOP DECK and infernal and he is dead.

I side:
+ 2 pyroclasm
+ 2 decay
+1 bayou
+1 tendrils
-1 island
-3 chrome
-1 ponder
-1 empty

game two he plays island go, I play ponder he says ok, turn 2 I play another ponder, he says ok again and after making the 3rd landrop I go for a therapy having a duress in hand and the kill on top of my deck for next turn. He says ok. So if he thought 0 seconds on my ponders before that eliminates fluster and pierce, he would have at least thought of it a second. He also thought 0 second on the therapy its because he assumes me naming fow and he doesn't have it. So the only choice is counterspell. And obviously I hit YEAHHH!!!!! and he keeped another bad hand of this remaining:
Swords to plowshares
Stoneforge
Batterskull
Mashflat

Next turn he goes land stone into fire and ice, (that eliminates snapcaster for my equation) I duress he drew a land and make a 17 life to 4 life ad nauseam that ends in burning crack led, infernal, infernal into tendrils GG

Another nice game played^^

So top 4 Im really near of making the 3 in a row win weekend.

top 4 Lands
game one I know my opponent has more or less no options so I keep a hand on the draw of:
2 led
1 burning
1 infernal
1 gitaxian
2 dark ritual
SHOULD i HAVE MULLIGAN THIS ON THE DRAW?

He starts land gamble and on my turn I draw a 3rd led play the gitaxian and see lots of nothing draw a petal and he is dead just making infernal for burning and tendrils.
I side:
-4 therapy
+3 decay
+1 bayou


(im pretty sure thats not the best configuration was what I thought)

Game 2 my hand is ok but not great and he makes turn 1 gamble for sphere of resistance and I don't hit it. Turn 2 sphere. turn 4 marit lage and I was able to make turn he hit for lethal Ad nauseam eot untap decay and win.

Game 3 Im on the play and this is my hand:
2 led
1 volcanic
1 fetch
1 swamp
1 gitaxian
1 rite of flame
SHOULD i HAVE MULLIGAN THIS ON THE PLAY?

I was not sure of this, I was missing business but starting I think any of this cards get me to play more magic and win more or less:
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 gitaxian
3 infernal
4 burning
3 duress
I think starting and having 2 draws for sure to find any of this plus that my hand was strong and had mana also to play the decay game was not so bad but I want opinions.

I gitaxian and draw island, he has wasteland, thorn of amethyst, sphere of resistance, exploration, tabernacle, punishing, bojuka, play delta and 2 leds. He starts bojuka exile my gitaxian and I draw a petal u,u play it and pass.
He plays sphere, then thorn and so. I end up making infernal for nauseam resolving it going to 6 lifes. burning for void snare, and decay. He wastelands a bit, I get to destroy a sphere and win the race vs his lonely punishing and a grove. But him having a second punishing fire in hand makes him win one turn before and its impossible for me to get rid of both spheres and i'm dead.

So top 4 only T_T no 3 wins in the weekend (I'm sad…) I get some prize money and later go to but it with my GF eating pasta and pizza in a cool restaurant.

On the deck:
Its really cool and its all foil, german FBB and what's not one or the other is japanese or even foil japanese. Pimp makes me happy.

But on the list:
-Basics are ok was never really, really bad but also never the best. It's a good plan to follow.
-I only won one game with empty the other game I did it I lost the race vs merfolks and never ever did it more. Also sided it out a lot. Its nice to have but if I never get to use it…
- I would have liked to wish one time for thoughtseize but ended not mattering but would have never liked to have the sb discard.
-Apart from the round vs canadian where Wasteland REALLY killed me I never got wasted and hurted.
-The void snare in the side is cool, but always when I wished for it I was dead anyway (also happened in other events)
-2 Pyroclasm where great
- If this stoneforge dig deck gets more played, using a second tendrils SB to main it is not the worst plan (there were like 6 in the 50 players).
- I never used massacre, but Its nice to have and out that cost only the burning wish mana for hatebears.
- There is more chalice, spheres and so every day I was thinkin on may be one of this card could be ok to just have more options that doesn't care about the +1 mana of spheres or chalice on one.
Hurkil recall
Chain of vapor
Meltdown

Thanks for reading and giving opinions and feedback, keep Storming.

@Pelicanudo: Look I topped with TES instead of and there you have it.

[Asthereal]

Played this deck in a multi-format invitational tournament.
Three rounds of Legacy for me (lost the quarters):

R1: UG Infect 2-1 (lost game 2 because he had a Fluster, I was digging for discard but he killed me turn 3)
R2: Jund 2-0 (good matchup, though perhaps I was a tad lucky game 2)
QF: OmniTell 0-2 (game 1 I keep a hand I perhaps should have mulled, he has permission / game 2 I play terribly and just give it away...)

List:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 Wish
3 Infernal
1 Ad Naus

4 LED
4 Petal
2 CMox
4 Dark Rit
4 Rite
2 Cabal Rit

4 Duress
3 Therapy

2 Gemstone Mine
2 Sea
2 Volcanic
1 Bayou
3 Delta
3 Misty

Side:
1 Tendrils
1 Empty
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal
1 Void Snare
1 Therapy
1 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay /15

Main deck feels really good like this. Ad Nauseam is super strong.
Main disadvantage of the list is me, the pilot, failing miserably in the QF...

Not sure whether TES was a good choice in the meta after the banning of Cruise though.
I was lucky not to encounter the many Miracles and BUG/RUG Delver decks there.
How do you guys see the meta post banning of Cruise? Which type of TES list should have the best chance, if TES is our choice at all?

[Lemnear]

Not sure whether TES was a good choice in the meta after the banning of Cruise though.
I was lucky not to encounter the many Miracles and BUG/RUG Delver decks there.
How do you guys see the meta post banning of Cruise? Which type of TES list should have the best chance, if TES is our choice at all?

We are basically back to Team America/Miraclea/Blade/S&T metagame like it was in September of last year except that some people durdle with more fringe decks until the dust settles. DRS, Hymn and Wasteland are back on the screen and those are all you should care about. Aside from S&T variants the metagame got slower and I feel prepared. The SB will possibly see a bigger change

Edit: I spoiler it here - Surgicals left the SB

Edit 2: have to read that report later, Rodrigo.

[Arguru]

Hi everyone!
I followed this topic for a long time,and i played ANT for one year with good results.
Last week I decided to give a chance to TES in a small tournament (30 ppl),ending undefeated with a cabal ritual list with 2 sb Carpet.
IMHO cabal ritual wasn't very good,and i missed the main deck empty a couple of time.

In the next tournament I think I'll play this list:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Chrome Mox
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Bayou
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Void Snare
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Massacre


But i have some questions for you:
Are basic lands so good?I don't want to color screw every game
Am I the only one who likes carpet of flowers?(especially in a non-basic manabase)
In a generic field is better to run 1 massacre or 1 grapeshot?

Thans to everyone who responds and sorry if my english is bad...:tongue:

[Lemnear]

@Carpet:
The deck is 40% mana anyways, so reserving SB slots for acceleration is nothing I consider an efficient use of space. Most Tempo list opperate on 1-2 lands, so the gain of Carpet is marginal and once Mirqcles Fetches up 2-3 Islands you have to bother with Clique and Counterbalance instead of mana.

@Massacre/Grapeshot
Grapeshot is really resource-hungry and can't economically deal with Thalia or Canonist, not to talk about Mother of Runes protecting either. It only really shines vs. Gaddock Teeg (and if boarded: versus Meddling Mage), while Massacre can wipe whole boards and take also Delver, SFM and TNNs with it once your opponent controls a Plains. These days I'm fine with boarding Decays against hatebears (Meddling. Mage in particular) and deal with the Rest via Massacre

[Bryant Cook]

@Carpet:
The deck is 40% mana anyways, so reserving SB slots for acceleration is nothing I consider an efficient use of space. Most Tempo list opperate on 1-2 lands, so the gain of Carpet is marginal and once Mirqcles Fetches up 2-3 Islands you have to bother with Clique and Counterbalance instead of mana.

@Massacre/Grapeshot
Grapeshot is really resource-hungry and can't economically deal with Thalia or Canonist, not to talk about Mother of Runes protecting either. It only really shines vs. Gaddock Teeg (and if boarded: versus Meddling Mage), while Massacre can wipe whole boards and take also Delver, SFM and TNNs with it once your opponent controls a Plains. These days I'm fine with boarding Decays against hatebears (Meddling. Mage in particular) and deal with the Rest via Massacre

I agree on Carpet.

If I were to run Grapeshot it would be over Pyroclasm number two, not Massacre. Grapeshot doubles as a secondary win-condition. I dislike the Abrupt Decay plan to deal with Meddling Mage as against UWr Stoneblade/Delver they pack Wasteland against our sole green source. I understand we can sit on fetch lands, but that isn't always an option.

[Izor]

So are 3 Infernal main + 1 side nowadays the standard? I suppose it has the advantage that you can win via Ad Nauseam if you have Wish plus 9 mana total (or if you can afford to wait another turn), which you would not be able to do otherwise. Though on the other hand, 4 Tutors main give you a higher chance to draw your most explosive Ad Nauseam combo hands. I've noticed that 4 Tutors main were pretty common pre-Cruise-ban, and now it seems like many people have moved away from it. Is there a particular reason for it?

I'm still pretty new to this deck and trying to understand it better.

[Lemnear]

So are 3 Infernal main + 1 side nowadays the standard? I suppose it has the advantage that you can win via Ad Nauseam if you have Wish plus 9 mana total (or if you can afford to wait another turn), which you would not be able to do otherwise. Though on the other hand, 4 Tutors main give you a higher chance to draw your most explosive Ad Nauseam combo hands. I've noticed that 4 Tutors main were pretty common pre-Cruise-ban, and now it seems like many people have moved away from it. Is there a particular reason for it?

I'm still pretty new to this deck and trying to understand it better.

The 4th Infernal in the SB became a thing (pre-TC Printing, Summer 2014) after we had to cut Dim.Ret. as a SB engine because of moving away from Silence (spring 2014), but wanted a wishable SB engine other than PIF. The habit to move an Infernal into the SB for slower games 2 & 3, gave Bryant the idea to make a virtue out of necessity and basically "preboard" (how I'm used to call it) the 4th Infernal.

Because that 9 mana is a heavy burden and the "Wish->IT, pass the turn" is pretty revealing and risky, the gameplan was supported by the addition of Cabal Rituals for quite some time which got cut again recently as a result of being kinda slow and hurting the ANs.

Now, with the predictable return of S&T, Wasteland and Spell Pierce, I'm unsure if the plan is still valid. It's also to question, if a MB EtW, but 3 Infernals to pop out T1 Goblins for 6 mana only, is a logic conclusion. The 4 MB IT and the SB TC took too long to establish and had only about a month in the light before the ban and the Infernal moving back into the SB.

With that being said, be asured, that it's totally fine to dismiss the option of the SB Infernal as your standard Layout. I ground this on the fact that not only the 4th Infernal is a traditional slot for sideboarding actual solutions to matchups, but also for the explosiveness you mentioned. Game 1s you often win on the back of the decks explosiveness and your opponent inability to answer your decks general gameplan or finishers, so I personally see no reason to include clunky 9-mana-playlines for those games (postboard games remain the same with both MB Layouts anyways). My most common Wish-target for quick game 1s is EtW and for slower games there is PIF or the natural chain ending with Wish->ToA.

[Arguru]

@lemnear-Bryant:
Thanks for your reply!So now how are your sideboards composed?And do you side in the 4th Infernal tutor against alle the non-miracles,non-stoneblade decks?
Also thank you for all your work in this thread,and for your patience!

[Lemnear]

@lemnear-Bryant:
Thanks for your reply!So now how are your sideboards composed?And do you side in the 4th Infernal tutor against alle the non-miracles,non-stoneblade decks?
Also thank you for all your work in this thread,and for your patience!

There is a SB guide in the opening post that should answer your question from Bryant's point of view. As I personally run no Moxen but the 4th Infernal main, my boarding in Detail is a bit different, but the idea behind remains the same.

I'm sure you can figure out the patterns behind the boarding (of cards of a particular category to move out/in) with the help of the guide. (Example: against counterbalance you can cut "speed" in Form of Moxen for "permanent removal" in Form of Decays)

Edit: you're welcome

[vercadium]

Hi folks,

This is my current list:

//Card Draw and Selection (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

//Tutors (7)
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor

//Targets (2)
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

//Disruption (7)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

//Ritual Mana (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

//Artifact Mana (11)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

//Land (13)
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest

//Sideboard (15)
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Void Snare
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor

Notes

I think Carpet of Flowers is trash. Every time I convince myself to test it again, I'm disappointed.

While I still stand behind my comment above on Carpet of Flowers - I admit I would like to have a little more powerful mana production to fight the rise of soft-counterspells I expect now that 'traditional' Delver is back. The only option to accomplish this that I can see, is finding room for the 2 Cabal Ritual again. This also works well with the sideboard Infernal Tutor and the fact that I expect a reduction in graveyard hate now that Treasure Cruise is gone. I'm fine with cutting the 3rd Chrome Mox for this, but I don't want to cut a discard spell (or anything else) for the other.

I'm on the fence about the basics, but I'm going to play with them a little longer before coming to a conclusion. I don't find Wasteland that much of an issue with so many initial mana sources (especially since we have more fetches now), so the basics seem unnecessary. That said, the cost of playing them is basically just 1 sideboard slot, as I think people value red too highly in this deck anyway - we actually use it very little, so the -1 red source I don't feel is much of a detriment. I don't think it's a big deal either way.

Your thoughts are appreciated!


As I mentioned, I don't think -1 red source matters, but -1 green source in a 3 Decay/3 Swarm deck could do. I'm about 50/50 at this point and it really comes down to whether I'd rather be less likely to be screwed on green and gain a sideboard slot, or be able to play around Wasteland.

For reference, freeing up this slot by using duals instead of basics would allow the moving of a discard spell to the sideboard for Burning Wish for another main-deck slot. While I think outright cutting a discard spell to 6 is unacceptable, I feel this is ok and would give enough room to make the Cabal Ritual change I mentioned above. Here's a list of how this would look:

//Card Draw and Selection (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

//Tutors (7)
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor

//Targets (2)
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

//Disruption (6)
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

//Ritual Mana (10)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual

//Artifact Mana (10)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

//Land (13)
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Misty Rainforest

//Sideboard (15)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Void Snare
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor

[Pelikanudo]

@Togores

First of all:
Congratulations man!

it seems that you are luckier than me when facing miracles... as said, it seems that every miracles player makes somehow misplays vs TES...
Looking at your match up vs Round 5 UWR Stoneforge control, well I can't understand why the hell he countered that I.T. having you more cards in hand... this is what happened right? I'm not advocated to make these kind of plays..., I'd like to know how is the thinking process of this person... maybe you could explain this Togores... you say even it is a good player... sure...



Game two I have a mediocre hand of:
2 Burnign wish
Bayou
Gitaxian
2 decay
Xantid
SHOULD i HAVE MULLIGAN THIS ON THE DRAW?

I personally haven't mulligan, because I have a big Karma, but looks like a mull.

top 4 Lands
game one I know my opponent has more or less no options so I keep a hand on the draw of:
2 led
1 burning
1 infernal
1 gitaxian
2 dark ritual
SHOULD i HAVE MULLIGAN THIS ON THE DRAW?

Absolutly not.

Now after reaching Top with TES, say which deck is funnier TES or ANT.

EDIT: How can you loose to Lands...

I have 2 Goals for this LML: Win a torunament with TES (not Top8) and Top8 with Solidarity, I'll see if this is possible as I don't think I have much spare time to invest in MTG...


EDIT: Vercadium:
I tested Nedles mainly as an option to handle Miracles and this is what I concluded:
Xantid is better vs Miracles and S&T and Reanimator
OR if you plan to play Nedles they are good in a number >2, then 3 or 4.

[Bryant Cook]

Notes

I'm back on Pithing Needle. Pyroblast is an option if Omni-tell were notably more popular than Sneak-and-Show, which was true for a while, but I don't feel is currently the case. I truly hate playing Pyroblast with Lion's Eye Diamond. The additional Xantid Swarm + Pyroclasm is also a fine option, but seems worse against a deck with Swords to Plowshares and Terminus.

I think Carpet of Flowers is trash. Every time I convince myself to test it again, I'm disappointed.

While I still stand behind my comment above on Carpet of Flowers - I admit I would like to have a little more powerful mana production to fight the rise of soft-counterspells I expect now that 'traditional' Delver is back. The only option to accomplish this that I can see, is finding room for the 2 Cabal Ritual again. This also works well with the sideboard Infernal Tutor and the fact that I expect a reduction in graveyard hate now that Treasure Cruise is gone. I'm fine with cutting the 3rd Chrome Mox for this, but I don't want to cut a discard spell (or anything else) for the other.

I'm on the fence about the basics, but I'm going to play with them a little longer before coming to a conclusion. I don't find Wasteland that much of an issue with so many initial mana sources (especially since we have more fetches now), so the basics seem unnecessary. That said, the cost of playing them is basically just 1 sideboard slot, as I think people value red too highly in this deck anyway - we actually use it very little, so the -1 red source I don't feel is much of a detriment. I don't think it's a big deal either way.

Your thoughts are appreciated!

At least here in the US, there's far more Omni at the moment than Sneak and Show. The fact that Containment Priest exists plus the rest of the Death and Taxes package has really driven away Sneak Attack variants.

I'm not against you on Carpet.

The extra 'Clasm isn't really for the Swords to Plowshares/Terminus match-ups as Bayou, Decays (3) and Xantids (2-3) are typically enough as we're almost over sideboarding at that point.

I've really liked the basics so far and I agree that there's an over emphasis on the importance of an early red source as we really only use it on the combo turn.

[vercadium]

At least here in the US, there's far more Omni at the moment than Sneak and Show. The fact that Containment Priest exists plus the rest of the Death and Taxes package has really driven away Sneak Attack variants.

I'm not against you on Carpet.

The extra 'Clasm isn't really for the Swords to Plowshares/Terminus match-ups as Bayou, Decays (3) and Xantids (2-3) are typically enough as we're almost over sideboarding at that point.

I've really liked the basics so far and I agree that there's an over emphasis on the importance of an early red source as we really only use it on the combo turn.

I didn't think Pyroclasm was for the Miracles match-up - I just meant that choosing the 3rd Swarm + X seemed worse than 2 Pithing Needle. But this misunderstanding no longer matters; I'm not gonna lie - I completely forgot about Containment Priest.

While I've seen an uptake in Sneak-Show and Reanimator since the banning, I agree with you that the Priest will probably shut them out fairly quickly once people adapt to this uptake.

This ultimately changes my mind regarding Pithing Needle, as while I still think the card is noticeably better than Xantid Swarm against Miracles, if we don't need to worry about Griselbrand, Xantid Swarm is much better elsewhere. Moreover, 2 Xantid Swarm + 3 Decay + 1 Bayou + 2 Pithing Needle would indeed be far too much against Miracles.

I'll be editing my post/list to match this realisation. The 3rd Xantid Swarm is obviously a given in that case, but I could actually live without the 2nd Pyroclasm, even if it seems to be the best option for now.

As I mentioned, I don't think -1 red source matters, but -1 green source in a 3 Decay/3 Swarm deck could do. I'm about 50/50 at this point and it really comes down to whether I'd rather be less likely to be screwed on green and gain a sideboard slot, or be able to play around Wasteland.

[Togores]

In the last events played with tes i only used in 8 rounds 2 times the md emtpy (one i lost) and in the other 5 rounds event i also only used it once. It got sided out almost ever and was not good.
Im thinking of cutting it and a mox for 2 cabals. Its too much crazyness? I end up wining with nauseam always or pif. Or natural storm.

@pelicanudo
Its was jorge varela the brother of alberto. He is good player but was on standstill long time. At the end of the match he told me that if he let me the ritual resolve i would be able to crack led in response to infernal and because it mana dont give him the chance to respond.
My plan was that the ritual in response gave him a weird idea of why i do a such rare thing. Ritual ritual ritual infenal response ritual. Worked out well as you know. Also my for of playing being sure i would still won and goig for itin this imposible game made all my trick far better.

[vercadium]

Updated my post from earlier today with some additional thoughts; eager to hear a few more opinions! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=864252&viewfull=1#post864252)

[Bryant Cook]

Cabal Ritual is just so slow. I was really on the fence about the card for a long time, but I know where I stand now, in TES it's hot trash as we're trying to be a fast deck with a card that's inherently sluggish.

[Togores]

And what could I play instead of the empty?

[vercadium]

Cabal Ritual is just so slow. I was really on the fence about the card for a long time, but I know where I stand now, in TES it's hot trash as we're trying to be a fast deck with a card that's inherently sluggish.

I agree with you in principle, I was just trying to find something to do with that extra sideboard slot (in a non-basic list). It's not like the 3rd Chrome Mox is amazing either.

I don't want to devolve this discussion into the pros/cons of Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox though, which we've discussed at length before - what I really want to highlight is the room we have in the sideboard and how to work the list to utilise it:

Moving the Bayou to the sideboard to use basics is one way.

If running mono-duals, how else would this space be used? Bonus copies of Chain of Vapor and Surgical Extraction that aren't needed or narrow answers like Shattering Spree don't seem great. Neither are my proposal of Cabal Rituals.

[Asthereal]

Cabal Ritual is just so slow. I was really on the fence about the card for a long time, but I know where I stand now, in TES it's hot trash as we're trying to be a fast deck with a card that's inherently sluggish.
Fair point. I have played with the two Cabal Rits for some time now, and I have mostly really liked them, but they can be a nuisance, and I actually quite often failed to threshold them, so they weren't that good. Maybe I just mostly liked the 20 accell list.

If we want to be fast and run 20 accell, we could play 2x Chrome Mox, 2x Simian Spirit Guide.
Guides are better cards to have in hand, usually, and without Empty main the two Guides won't mess up our Ad Nauseams too much. We still have two Chrome Moxen for free initial mana, and without Empty we get to flip cards until 3 life instead of 4, which is still an improvement.

[Lemnear]

Fair point. I have played with the two Cabal Rits for some time now, and I have mostly really liked them, but they can be a nuisance, and I actually quite often failed to threshold them, so they weren't that good. Maybe I just mostly liked the 20 accell list.

If we want to be fast and run 20 accell, we could play 2x Chrome Mox, 2x Simian Spirit Guide.
Guides are better cards to have in hand, usually, and without Empty main the two Guides won't mess up our Ad Nauseams too much. We still have two Chrome Moxen for free initial mana, and without Empty we get to flip cards until 3 life instead of 4, which is still an improvement.

This topic sounds familiar. Like months ago, in regards to that topic, I have to ask why you want to bother with Chrome Moxen and stuff if you don't plan to rely on EtW?

[Pelikanudo]

And what could I play instead of the empty?

I almost always side out EtW also, but this is not the point, I do not recomend you to take out this card from the main, vs that RUG Match up you played, EtW is in deed The card that likely will make you win as example.

As you take out a business spell, likely I'd bring the 4th I.T.

my opinion regarding I.T. is the same as Bahamut in here - here we are both mathematician.

The 3 stages I consider:
a) Playing 10 Business spells Total
b) 9 --> moving I.T. to the side
c) 8 --> moving EtW to the side

in my opinion you could do b) but not c), my mathematical mind doesn't allow even b), as said just my opinión.

As example of what I think:
If I were to play ANT someday I would play it with at least 2 Grim Tutor in adition to 4I.T.

[Asthereal]

This topic sounds familiar. Like months ago, in regards to that topic, I have to ask why you want to bother with Chrome Moxen and stuff if you don't plan to rely on EtW?
Because you want a fast Ad Nauseam?
If you want a slow Ad Nauseam or a slow Past in Flames kill, there's always ANT.

And yes, a few months ago I tested Guides instead of Moxen, but that was because I drew a million Moxen in my opening hands, which was bugging me to such an extent that I wanted to cut all of them. And I found that a split between Mox and Guide was probably optimal, if a list with Guides would be optimal at all. So here it is.

[Togores]

I almost always side out EtW also, but this is not the point, I do not recomend you to take out this card from the main, vs that RUG Match up you played, EtW is in deed The card that likely will make you win as example.

As you take out a business spell, likely I'd bring the 4th I.T.

my opinion regarding I.T. is the same as Bahamut in here - here we are both mathematician.

The 3 stages I consider:
a) Playing 10 Business spells Total
b) 9 --> moving I.T. to the side
c) 8 --> moving EtW to the side

in my opinion you could do b) but not c), my mathematical mind doesn't allow even b), as said just my opinión.

As example of what I think:
If I were to play ANT someday I would play it with at least 2 Grim Tutor in adition to 4I.T.


Im not gonna play infernal main. I like the card a lot in the side and i wish really a lot of times for it. i want another card. Now its -1 mox -1 empty +2 cabal. But i would like another card instead.
May be a random preordain could do the job...

[Bryant Cook]

Fair point. I have played with the two Cabal Rits for some time now, and I have mostly really liked them, but they can be a nuisance, and I actually quite often failed to threshold them, so they weren't that good. Maybe I just mostly liked the 20 accell list.

If we want to be fast and run 20 accell, we could play 2x Chrome Mox, 2x Simian Spirit Guide.
Guides are better cards to have in hand, usually, and without Empty main the two Guides won't mess up our Ad Nauseams too much. We still have two Chrome Moxen for free initial mana, and without Empty we get to flip cards until 3 life instead of 4, which is still an improvement.

I'm still on Empty as I'm a big fan of the synergy with Therapy and the ability to go off with 4 mana after a Tutor effect instead of five. I'm pretty happy with my list for the moment, I don't really see need for change.

[Dice_Box]

I can see a reason for a change, the current list you have up happens to be illegal.

[Bryant Cook]

If you followed the thread, there has been discussion of the changes over the last few pages. But for those of you to lazy to put 1+1 together, here's the list:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroclasm
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

[tescrin]

I'm still on Empty as I'm a big fan of the synergy with Therapy and the ability to go off with 4 mana after a Tutor effect instead of five. I'm pretty happy with my list for the moment, I don't really see need for change.

I've had both played against me (a lot) to reasonable success; though I normally view the Empty plan as unreliable. If your opponent has a Top/Cantrip and 3 outs to empty, they have ~45+% of finding it (33+% with 2); which is what an RNG would do. A human will likely consider keeping a hand with an out to empty if it has real interaction; simply on the reasonable chance you'll go for it. Considering that most people probably have at least two outs (Charm, Persecution, Deluge, EE) due to Elves' presence.

It's a risky move to try to win with it if Elves or Lingering Souls are on the radar IMO; unless you know their deck arch can't handle it (which for D&T and such may well be worth it.)

[Lemnear]

Because you want a fast Ad Nauseam?
If you want a slow Ad Nauseam or a slow Past in Flames kill, there's always ANT.

And yes, a few months ago I tested Guides instead of Moxen, but that was because I drew a million Moxen in my opening hands, which was bugging me to such an extent that I wanted to cut all of them. And I found that a split between Mox and Guide was probably optimal, if a list with Guides would be optimal at all. So here it is.

Fast Ad Nauseam... by shaving an Infernal to enable 9-mana-playlines while 2-for-1'ing yourself for a Mox in a metagame which will see the return of Spell Pierce and Stifle? I have my doubts.

[Bryant Cook]

Fast Ad Nauseam... by shaving an Infernal to enable 9-mana-playlines while 2-for-1'ing yourself for a Mox in a metagame which will see the return of Spell Pierce and Stifle? I have my doubts.

Comments like this aren't constructive. I could say the same about you being a lone person advocating sol lands.

Chrome Moxen and the sideboard Infernal Tutor have worked for more than one person, not to mention, you even admit to siding out a tutor fairly often. There isn't much of a difference.


I've had both played against me (a lot) to reasonable success; though I normally view the Empty plan as unreliable. If your opponent has a Top/Cantrip and 3 outs to empty, they have ~45+% of finding it (33+% with 2); which is what an RNG would do. A human will likely consider keeping a hand with an out to empty if it has real interaction; simply on the reasonable chance you'll go for it. Considering that most people probably have at least two outs (Charm, Persecution, Deluge, EE) due to Elves' presence.

It's a risky move to try to win with it if Elves or Lingering Souls are on the radar IMO; unless you know their deck arch can't handle it (which for D&T and such may well be worth it.)

Most non-miracles lists don't play three outs to be fair, not to mention you're assuming this is post-board with those cards. We have our own disruption to stop them as well (7 discard spells and 4 Gitaxian Probe).

[Lemnear]

Comments like this aren't constructive. I could say the same about you being a lone person advocating sol lands.

Chrome Moxen and the sideboard Infernal Tutor have worked for more than one person, not to mention, you even admit to siding out a tutor fairly often.

Yeah, I'm used to that spot time and time again ;)

Get me right. I know about our position during last spring and during the TC metagame and we can only try to predict how the upcoming metagame looks like. I'm not convinced we can keep following the traits we used for a metagame w/o Wasteland/Pierce/Stifle/Hymn and that's my working focus

I'm mainly siding the Infernal against control and Sol Lands are miles better to reach 9 mana than Moxen.

[Togores]

Edit 2: have to read that report later, Rodrigo.

Warte noch auf deiner meinung ;)

2 hours writting should be worth some hinsights on at least hands to keep.

[Lemnear]

Warte noch auf deiner meinung ;)

2 hours writting should be worth some hinsights on at least hands to keep.

Yeah, I have not forgotten to do this. Had to delay that to find time for an adequate response :)

[vercadium]

For all my chatter here yesterday, I failed to mention that I'm pleased with the list I've been playing. I'm playing the same 75 Bryant has posted above (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=864362&viewfull=1#post864362). As I mentioned yesterday, the only high-impact card choice that I'm unsure of is the basics and, at the moment, I believe that any issues the basics present can be avoided by a change in play pattern, rather than a change in lands.

[Pelikanudo]

Comments like this aren't constructive. I could say the same about you being a lone person advocating sol lands.

Chrome Moxen and the sideboard Infernal Tutor have worked for more than one person, not to mention, you even admit to siding out a tutor fairly often. There isn't much of a difference.



Most non-miracles lists don't play three outs to be fair, not to mention you're assuming this is post-board with those cards. We have our own disruption to stop them as well (7 discard spells and 4 Gitaxian Probe).

I'm 100% agree on Lem and Bahamut also.

Why the hell you play the best enabler in the Side there is such a huge difference between 7 and 9 mana....
Even I also usually play the 4th in side most of the 2nd and 3rd games, BUT the 1st games need to be compressed as much as possible.
I would prefer to play 3 B.W. and 4 I.T. and not backwards...
I don't understand why you want to make a good card a bad card...

[Lemnear]

Rodrigo, I commented in the Tournament Report, but I want to leave the response also here for further discussion:


Hey, pal! Took a while but here's my 0.02$ on each round:

R1 - Miracles
G1: the classic Jab-Hook-KO. I'm used to goldfish under these circumstances and maybe this is a reason my results point me in another direction of building the deck. Dunno. I'm interrested in the Miracles build for reasons regarding EtW. I found EtW viable against non-Ponder builds, but complete jank otherwise. Boarding is fine for that layout.
G2: you have 8 outs to find a Volcanic to do actually something with the Wishes. The hand offers three pieces of disruption and two cards which basically do nothing without 5 more mana and among them a red IMS. Mind that a Volcanic still leaves Decay uncastable while any U.Sea/Island/Swamp leaves the Wishes dead. You can't keep that hand based on T1 Xantid alone.
G3: opponent can't count to 5

R2 - Maverick
G1: Belcher-Mode. 10 Goblins is a but risky if he opens with DRS. Giving your opponent three turns is enough to setup Batterskull or fetch Tabernacle (if he runs it). Just food for thought here. Boarding is once more fine. I however wonder if we really need Pyroclasm or if Decay would do the job as well aka saving SB space.
G2: 2x Mother + Teeg is near impossible to break free especially with Clasm. If you pick the Teeg instead of the Thalia, you have the option to Wish for Massacre later and sweep the board despite the Mothers (given that I have no clue about your manabase at that point). Given your Clasm had been a Decay and you have taken out the Teeg with Therapy, would it have been possible to Massacre first and Decay the Knight and win from there?
G3: Belcher-Mimic Vol.2 ... Were your Goblins in G1 also fueled by LED? I try to expand by data-sheet to measure the importance for T1/2 combos and find statistic evidence that Chrome Mox' ability to enable Hellbent is pretty irrelevant. Thx

R3 - Meerfolk
G1: Would have liked to see the Rest of the hand. A sole Petal isn't THAT bad depending on the Rest. A mull to 5 is :/
G2: I'm unsure about the boarding. I know Meerfolk players who Maindeck Chalice, so I tend to bring in Decays at times in place of the Duress' otherwise a T2 Chalice @1 + FoW gets really nasty even if you run Xantids (which could get countered like your other protection). Just something to have in mind. Rest of the game in 3 letters: lol
G3: here come the Decays I talked about. I'm surprisingly also not THE biggest fan of EtW here, so boarding it out is valid. I would have cutted Duress' instead of Therapies because of the fact that you can mess with their 4-off lords and Cursecatchers which is relevant once you want to go for the SB EtW and win the race. He fucks up by not playing the Chalice in two consecutive turns ... sometimes you can't help people ... geez

R4 - Canadian
G1: You ate double Wasteland on your Volcanics? Harsh. Am I mistaken if I suspect that Basics did nothing to affect that game?
G2: once more it appears to be the case that you were choose on BR for your combo turn. Did the Basics at least stabilize the early game?

R5 - UWR Blade
G1: I'm writing all this on my iPhone4 and it begins to feel like torture, Rodrigo xD. Anyways, we have another scenario for double Discard out of 7 in the MB. I know why I'm so used to play Virtual 10 of them. Better lucky than good, I guess. I like your bravery, man.
G2: Fine boarding. EtW is so-so depending if you can dodge the Skull. All Mages on Wish, I guess? You can't win them all...
G3: I still dislike the Island from my last testing with Basics, but I think it's still better than the 3rd Mox. I have no clue what he thought at that point with the Infernal. Period

R6 - Junk
ID: why not

Top 8 - Deathblade
G1: Belcher ftw! Once again: LED; no Mox involved.
G2: i don't like the MB ToA because post-AN the access to it is limited and expensive unless you flip itself. Rest of the boarding mimics the match before. His keep was bad once again and it did not even matter if you hit with the Therapy. Neat.

Top 4 - Lands
G1: Mother of God! Any Black IMS and you explode. I couldn't resist this keep either. Boarding isn't bad, I just fear Tabernacle so keeping EtW is risky. I prefer the 4th infernal against a possible Wasteland lock making the SB IT playline hard to execute
G2: happens.
G3: this might be exceptional, but given the mana you have in your hand and the business you need paired with his 2cc hate, I would have fetched an U.Sea before probing and lowering the Chance to draw more lands slightly. Even if he has Wasteland, you lose nothing with Swamp+Volcanic still delivering all colors you need but with him possibly delaying his 2cc hate the turn you possibly need to draw into business. Being greedy in this situation would've possibly been better.

Sorry for the delay ;D

[Lemnear]

I'm 100% agree on Lem and Bahamut also.

Why the hell you play the best enabler in the Side there is such a huge difference between 7 and 9 mana....
Even I also usually play the 4th in side most of the 2nd and 3rd games, BUT the 1st games need to be compressed as much as possible.
I would prefer to play 3 B.W. and 4 I.T. and not backwards...
I don't understand why you want to make a good card a bad card...

I feel like havin to set this into relation. There is sure a metagame for that 9-mana playline if the field is slower and passive-controlish and you are running options to bridge the mana-gap with powerful cards like Cabal Ritual, but under the assumption that the metagame will return to Wasteland/Pierce/Hymn I have my doubts about the viability of that plan or the "Wish for Infernal and pass the turn" scenario.

[ThiefSlayer]

I don't know about you guys, but in my experience I used to go more often to the "8 mana => BW => IT => EtW" route to get 2 extra goblins than to get AN. It all depends on the type of deck you are facing (speed, removal, blockers), but the IT on the sideboard sounds to me like a response to a slower field, where you can make a 12/14 goblins combo out to win in a 2 turn clock.

If my field was faster I would play IT main so that I had more chance to AN with 7 mana and win on the spot (with some risk of "fizzling" of course).

Also, maybe I was just wrong in my assumption that those 2 extra goblins in those games were worth having the 4th IT on the SB. Still, it has worked well for me and I haven't had problems getting tutors to combo off with 1 less in the MD. For a slower meta, sounds like a good move to me.

[Lemnear]

I don't know about you guys, but in my experience I used to go more often to the "8 mana => BW => IT => EtW" route to get 2 extra goblins than to get AN. It all depends on the type of deck you are facing (speed, removal, blockers), but the IT on the sideboard sounds to me like a response to a slower field, where you can make a 12/14 goblins combo out to win in a 2 turn clock.

If my field was faster I would play IT main so that I had more chance to AN with 7 mana and win on the spot (with some risk of "fizzling" of course).

Also, maybe I was just wrong in my assumption that those 2 extra goblins in those games were worth having the 4th IT on the SB. Still, it has worked well for me and I haven't had problems getting tutors to combo off with 1 less in the MD. For a slower meta, sounds like a good move to me.

If my life drops fast, I'm also used to take the 8-mana exit via IT->BW->EtW if the natural chain or PIF doesn't cut it. I'm not convinced, I want to run a 4cc card Main (Ad Nauseam!) and cut an Infernal (less 7-mana AN) to just have the option to generate two extra Goblins via Wish (hellbent given in this scenario). For me the price is too high.

I agree on your Observation about the Connection of SB Infernal and slow metagame. The question I dare to ask is how you would sort stuff like Wasteland/Pierce/Hymn? Are those "fast" cards/strategies to threaten your gameplan?

[Bryant Cook]

If my life drops fast, I'm also used to take the 8-mana exit via IT->BW->EtW if the natural chain or PIF doesn't cut it. I'm not convinced, I want to run a 4cc card Main (Ad Nauseam!) and cut an Infernal (less 7-mana AN) to just have the option to generate two extra Goblins via Wish (hellbent given in this scenario). For me the price is too high.

I agree on your Observation about the Connection of SB Infernal and slow metagame. The question I dare to ask is how you would sort stuff like Wasteland/Pierce/Hymn? Are those "fast" cards/strategies to threaten your gameplan?

The difference is you don't always have Infernal Tutor to start with. Your list is also not built to maximize Empty the Warrens since you fail to run Chrome Mox, for everyone else's list, the Empty can come down sooner which makes it more effective against these fast strategies.

We're already beginning to solve the Wasteland issue by running a pair of basics, Pierce is rarely more than a two of in most lists and Hymn is difficult for any storm list. But half of the beauty of Chrome Mox is winning before they can cast their difficult spells. I'd like to note that Shardless BUG and Deathblade are making tremendous swings back into the metagame - these are slow decks.

[Lemnear]

The difference is you don't always have Infernal Tutor to start with. Your list is also not built to maximize Empty the Warrens since you fail to run Chrome Mox, for everyone else's list, the Empty can come down sooner which makes it more effective against these fast strategies.

We're already beginning to solve the Wasteland issue by running a pair of basics, Pierce is rarely more than a two of in most lists and Hymn is difficult for any storm list. But half of the beauty of Chrome Mox is winning before they can cast their difficult spells. I'd like to note that Shardless BUG and Deathblade are making tremendous swings back into the metagame - these are slow decks.

I agree on my list not maximizing EtW. It's a fact.

I still have a headache over Rodrigos match against Canadian, my friend. He was choked twice on red mana and the Basics did nothing to swing the game in his favor. I feared we would see this Happening.

Yeah, Discard+counter(+hatebears) is coming back, even if not that powerful as S&T does post-DTT. I have still memories of Golgari Charms/Zealous Persecution/Toxic Deluge/etc. out of those decks Sideboards (and mainboards in case of Shardless and Deluge) to not consider an early EtW an Auto-win in at least 2 of the 3 games. Their clock however is so slow that sometimes even turn 3 EtWs can get the distance if you pick appart their hand.

[redhamjack]

We've been talking a lot about Cabal Ritual, I like this card a lot and have been running 2 main since pre NJ. The card can be situationally weak, often its +b, +1 storm (a mediocre rite), but it's a card that lets you come from behind and set up sweet ad nauseums. Plus you can cast it while already holding priority to infernal, still hold and crack LED to get threshold to trigger. This also makes getting 9+ mana for BW->IF->AN a lot easier.

The fact it dodges chalice on 1 or a counterbalance on 1 is insanely helpful in some game 1s.

Also, if they're not familiar with your deck or the differences between TES and ANT, showing Cabal Ritual g1 often attracts irrelevant graveyard hate post board. I love nothing more than my opponent gleefully tapping out for a RIP turn 2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bryant Cook]

I still have a headache over Rodrigos match against Canadian, my friend. He was choked twice on red mana and the Basics did nothing to swing the game in his favor. I feared we would see this Happening.

We're also under the assumption that he played perfectly and didn't color screw himself by unnecessarily searching for lands he couldn't afford to get. I read his report, he made some questionable keeps and misplays. I can't be convinced by one other person who's shown poor examples that basics are bad. I've run them in three events now on top of testing and they've been great.


Yeah, Discard+counter(+hatebears) is coming back, even if not that powerful as S&T does post-DTT. I have still memories of Golgari Charms/Zealous Persecution/Toxic Deluge/etc. out of those decks Sideboards (and mainboards in case of Shardless and Deluge) to not consider an early EtW an Auto-win in at least 2 of the 3 games. Their clock however is so slow that sometimes even turn 3 EtWs can get the distance if you pick appart their hand.

Sure, if you're playing against black decks feel free to side out Empty. Otherwise, accept the fact that they have 1-2 answers and use your discard wisely.

[Lemnear]

We've been talking a lot about Cabal Ritual, I like this card a lot and have been running 2 main since pre NJ. The card can be situationally weak, often its +b, +1 storm (a mediocre rite), but it's a card that lets you come from behind and set up sweet ad nauseums. Plus you can cast it while already holding priority to infernal, still hold and crack LED to get threshold to trigger. This also makes getting 9+ mana for BW->IF->AN a lot easier.

The fact it dodges chalice on 1 or a counterbalance on 1 is insanely helpful in some game 1s.

Also, if they're not familiar with your deck or the differences between TES and ANT, showing Cabal Ritual g1 often attracts irrelevant graveyard hate post board. I love nothing more than my opponent gleefully tapping out for a RIP turn 2.


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You consider your opponent a defenseless goldfish here. Coming back "from behind" with Ad Nauseam after your opponent "poked" you with Tarmogoyf for turns? Casting BW->IT->AN against Wasteland/Hymn/Pierce/Daze? You argue with CR manaburst at the same time you hint at dead 'yard-hate, which does not make sense because RIP (people being it in regardless to cut RoFs and PIF) renders CR into a 2cc RoF (how bad are 2cc initial cost!).

CR+AN is only a valid combination against slow and reactionary decks, because the manaboost makes up for spend discard to overcome defense with enough time to setup T.hold and nothing attacking your life total. This is a small market ;)

[Pelikanudo]

Ok, asume you fetch for island or for Swamp or even for Both!, if the RUG opp. destroyes the rest of lands, how are you supposed to win the match up by just having a lonely Island or Swamp? - remember you play 13 lands not 15 as ANT!

When facing to RUG or Team America, having a basic is not what made me won those match ups, the real issue is having A Flexible Land - lets say CoB, Gemstone or even U.Sea.
I'm used to win RUG or T.A. match ups with uniquely 1 land (rest are destroyed) and sure that the land that makes me win is generally U. Sea or Gemstone.

if the plan is to stabilize with 1 or 2 basics and next win, the game route is quite different - it is more the ANT route.

[Lemnear]

Ok, asume you fetch for island or for Swamp or even for Both!, if the RUG opp. destroyes the rest of lands, how are you supposed to win the match up by just having a lonely Island or Swamp? - remember you play 13 lands not 15 as ANT!

When facing to RUG or Team America, having a basic is not what made me won those match ups, the real issue is having A Flexible Land - lets say CoB, Gemstone or even U.Sea.
I'm used to win RUG or T.A. match ups with uniquely 1 land (rest are destroyed) and sure that the land that makes me win is generally U. Sea or Gemstone.

if the plan is to stabilize with 1 or 2 basics and next win, the game route is quite different - it is more the ANT route.

Meh. The plan is obviously to fetch/drop a Volcanic the turn you need the red mana to combo and with Swamp + Volcanic you an cast all spells in your Maindeck if you have to operate on two lands. You don't mindlessly fetch both Basics just for the sake of being Wasteland-proof and struggle to get the Volcanic into play against Stifle and the odds to find one or a fetch with about 4/13 lands already drawn out of your library at that point.

My issue is that the Basic Island has such low value in TES unlike in ANT which often runs Preordain, as you gain barely anything by just chaining cantrips like a Champ, so I don't see why I should include a stable foundation for "just" plowing through my Library.

[Pelikanudo]

Meh. The plan is obviously to fetch/drop a Volcanic the turn you need the red mana to combo and with Swamp + Volcanic you an cast all spells in your Maindeck if you have to operate on two lands. You don't mindlessly fetch both Basics just for the sake of being Wasteland-proof and struggle to get the Volcanic into play against Stifle and the odds to find one or a fetch with about 4/13 lands already drawn out of your library at that point.

My issue is that the Basic Island has such low value in TES unlike in ANT which often runs Preordain, as you gain barely anything by just chaining cantrips like a Champ, so I don't see why I should include a stable foundation for "just" plowing through my Library.

Well that's exact the point:
for that scenario you fetch First for nonbasic (which will be likely destroyed...), you'll never want to fetch first for Swamp OR Island... and of course if that fetch is your unique land in hand.

Also playing so many fetches you also are in a por position against Stifle, I play 4.

I think you and me at least agree.

[Lemnear]

Well that's exact the point:
for that scenario you fetch First for nonbasic (which will be likely destroyed...), you'll never want to fetch first for Swamp OR Island... and of course if that fetch is your unique land in hand.

Also playing so many fetches you also are in a por position against Stifle, I play 4.

I think you and me at least agree.

You fetch for Swamp first, cast Discard, untap, fetch Volcanic, combo ... at least under ideal circumstances. If you have to cantrip for 1-2 turns according to your hand, you get the Island and fix your combo mana with Moxen/Petals/Land#2. that's the whole fundamental idea behind the Basics. I have no clue why you claim that you never want to fetch them first. That's their whole fucking purpose.

Playing less Fetches and ergo less shuffle effects for Ponder/Brainstorm and also less card-/mana-selection just because of Stifle is no adequate response. You should not battle Stifle by making your deck worse but by reducing the impact it has on the game development. I don't want to see a fetch stifled or a dual wasted and then find myself having to play the Rest off my cantrips/discard off a depleting Gemstone Mine which your opponent can basically sit out in grindy games, so I fear we do not agree on how to build a manabase.

My only topic is the Island, because it does not do enough for my taste to fuel the combo.

[vercadium]

Firstly, I've said this before and i'll reiterate - I'd rather have access to a virtual 7 Infernal Tutor than 4. To me, that's the main reason to have it in the sideboard. In many situations, Burning Wish can be a poor draw - in those cases, or when you have multiple copies of Burning Wish, being able to convert those into an Infernal Tutor is invaluable. Being able to play around Surgical Extraction more easily, generate additional goblins, create loops for storm count easier... these are just bonuses.

Secondly, I think people exaggerate the difficultly of hitting 9 mana in TES. Admittedly, the possibility of a Spell Pierce heavy meta-game does change the equation somewhat, but even in that scenario, the important thing is that no one is making you take that line if you think/know they have one.

I also disagree with the premise that the meta-game is now a 'fast' one. If anything, it's slower with UR Delvers decline and BUG's resurgence.


My issue is that the Basic Island has such low value in TES unlike in ANT which often runs Preordain, as you gain barely anything by just chaining cantrips like a Champ, so I don't see why I should include a stable foundation for "just" plowing through my Library.

On a different topic, while I agree with Lemnear that we don't benefit from cantrips as much as ANT, which in turn reduces the value of basics, I think not being down a land or two by your combo turn is still desirable and goes a long way to successfully playing through soft counterspells like Spell Pierce.

[ThiefSlayer]

If my life drops fast, I'm also used to take the 8-mana exit via IT->BW->EtW if the natural chain or PIF doesn't cut it. I'm not convinced, I want to run a 4cc card Main (Ad Nauseam!) and cut an Infernal (less 7-mana AN) to just have the option to generate two extra Goblins via Wish (hellbent given in this scenario). For me the price is too high.

I agree on your Observation about the Connection of SB Infernal and slow metagame. The question I dare to ask is how you would sort stuff like Wasteland/Pierce/Hymn? Are those "fast" cards/strategies to threaten your gameplan?

And that's the problem about my experience, my meta is not very reliable as the field isn't that diversified. Hymn just teared me apart everytime I played against it, and as I started storming about 2 months ago, I haven't had a lot of experience against wasteland decks, and Spell Pierce is really bad to play against. Against spell pierce decks, usually the IT on the SB is useless, as it probably is for the other 2 examples you gave.

The problem about that exit via IT->BW-> EtW is that if you get BW in hand you can only BW-> EtW with 2 mana left (if you are still going for the EtW route anyway), which lowers your possibility of storm count. 2 extra goblins make a lot of difference as (not counting sweepers) 10 goblins against 2 blocking creatures is really risky, while 12 goblins is almost G_G if the opponent doesn't draw extra blockers. While doing a low-count EtW, those 2 goblins make a lot of difference, and in my meta I'm going more the goblin route than I've ever heard of someone doing (most games, actually). I really don't know if that's a good idea to put IT on the SB in a meta where EtW isn't that good of an option.

The 4cc card main has been very kind to me, as it enables rare T1 goblin combos without tutor (7/60 chance to get it in the initial hand), and you can also IT for it and BW->IT for it (in this third situation, the 4cc card main only enables you 1 extra storm count, as you could just BW-> EtW). I'm very used to have good results in the EtW path here, but I admit that I lack of knowledge of more diversified metas to give you more useful comments about big tournaments discussion.

The regional legacy circuit around here starts on february, where there are about 80 different people playing it, with about 40 people playing in each event. Meanwhile, I can only talk about experiences in a non-diversified meta where EtW really rocks, so I guess I will just read your hints about this marvelous deck and when I get a chance to test it in the wild I'll come back!

By the way, thank you guys for all the insights you've been giving! The deepness of your thoughts has been essential for my improvement as not only a storm player, but a better magic overall player!

[Pelikanudo]

You fetch for Swamp first, cast Discard, untap, fetch Volcanic, combo ... at least under ideal circumstances.

Yes ideal circumstances - I play 12 lands so I don't expect to have many lands in hand I would hate if my lonely land is an Island and same applicable for Swamp.

If you have to cantrip for 1-2 turns according to your hand, you get the Island and fix your combo mana with Moxen/Petals/Land#2. that's the whole fundamental idea behind the Basics. I have no clue why you claim that you never want to fetch them first. That's their whole fucking purpose.

Well with Moxen/Petals/Land#2, Land #2 is supposed to be in your hand or to be drawn?

Playing less Fetches and ergo less shuffle effects for Ponder/Brainstorm and also less card-/mana-selection just because of Stifle is no adequate response. You should not battle Stifle by making your deck worse but by reducing the impact it has on the game development. I don't want to see a fetch stifled or a dual wasted and then find myself having to play the Rest off my cantrips/discard off a depleting Gemstone Mine which your opponent can basically sit out in grindy games, so I fear we do not agree on how to build a manabase.

As said, believe it or not, Gemstone saved my ass as unique Land vs several Tempo Archetypes, the only thing I can explain is the following:

How the game vs these archetypes varies, but mainly is:
- I ponder or Discard
- Opp destroyes land
- I play land and Discard or Ponder
- Opp. can or not destroys my land

My main goal is to have a land and that this land produces most of the colors I use to going on doing my stuff: ToPonder, Discarding or Comboing

I hope my thinkings are clear.
nothing happens if we don't agree

My only topic is the Island, because it does not do enough for my taste to fuel the combo.

Well Island is the worst thing you can see in a TES build, I could compare it to when I tested a single Grim Tutor main....

[Lemnear]

Firstly, I've said this before and i'll reiterate - I'd rather have access to a virtual 7 Infernal Tutor than 4. To me, that's the main reason to have it in the sideboard. In many situations, Burning Wish can be a poor draw - in those cases, or when you have multiple copies of Burning Wish, being able to convert those into an Infernal Tutor is invaluable. Being able to play around Surgical Extraction more easily, generate additional goblins, create loops for storm count easier... these are just bonuses.

How does it help you to convert two Wishes into a Wish and an Infernal? You still need the LED for hellbent if AN is your goal not to talk about exposing yourself to discard if you pass the turn here. The SB Infernal just does not solve the double Wish scenario. I don't know, why you care about a fringe card like Surgical, but not about all the returning Tempo options. I think we should.


Secondly, I think people exaggerate the difficultly of hitting 9 mana in TES. Admittedly, the possibility of a Spell Pierce heavy meta-game does change the equation somewhat, but even in that scenario, the important thing is that no one is making you take that line if you think/know they have one.

Pierce/Wasteland/Thoughtseize/Hymn/etc. change the Dynamic completely. Just think about how many of your RoF / DR / LEDs you need to find before the mentioned cards wreck your 9-mana plan. If you follow that line of thought and have stuff like Pierce or Daze in the back of your head, you'll head for a casual EtW anyways in those game 1's (and possibly also for the whole match). Ergo, if I have serious doubts about executing the plan either caused by opposing disruption or my decks inability to gather 9 mana quickly I see no reason to weaken my game 1 burst.


I also disagree with the premise that the meta-game is now a 'fast' one. If anything, it's slower with UR Delvers decline and BUG's resurgence.

When I'm talking about "fast" I don't have the pure damage dealing capacity in mind but the crucial turn our opponent is able to cast a gamebreaker and/or cut us off of certain crucial playlines. This CAN be pure damage in terms of AN, but in my books also stuff like Hymn, Thalia or Counterbalance fall into this category. You can't durdle game 1 against Miracles, hope Hymn isn't devastating or that you can break out from Thalia and that's why I want the maximum of flexible burst-enablers maindeck. (I know that by running EtW main the total number remains constant but it's not quite flexible aside the cmc issue I have in my build ;D)


On a different topic, while I agree with Lemnear that we don't benefit from cantrips as much as ANT, which in turn reduces the value of basics, I think not being down a land or two by your combo turn is still desirable and goes a long way to successfully playing through soft counterspells like Spell Pierce.

We talk here about a generic mana for your combo turn first and foremost in case of the basic Island, which basically also potentially limits your general color access throughout the game which is exceptional annoying if you needlessly play around Wasteland with it because of fear. For generic mana to play around softcounters I neither like the Island nor the Moxen. It's not that your opponents can't shuffle Wastelands away or can't use them to cast Tarmogoyfs, so you don't actually create cardadvantage

[Togores]

Meh. The plan is obviously to fetch/drop a Volcanic the turn you need the red mana to combo and with Swamp + Volcanic you an cast all spells in your Maindeck if you have to operate on two lands. You don't mindlessly fetch both Basics just for the sake of being Wasteland-proof and struggle to get the Volcanic into play against Stifle and the odds to find one or a fetch with about 4/13 lands already drawn out of your library at that point.

My issue is that the Basic Island has such low value in TES unlike in ANT which often runs Preordain, as you gain barely anything by just chaining cantrips like a Champ, so I don't see why I should include a stable foundation for "just" plowing through my Library.

My biggest issue with basics was the island.
We play 4 blue sources plus island. And we board some cantrips out. And we only have 3 black. Where we may be casting duress and ritual from diferent sources. When playing ir feel to me i had to much blue and low black. More playing against control without wasteland. Where i only need one volc and a bayou plus swamp to play. So i sidded out island for bayou. So i had. 4 black. 4 blue and 2 red sources.

[Lemnear]

My biggest issue with basics was the island.
We play 4 blue sources plus island. And we board some cantrips out. And we only have 3 black. Where we may be casting duress and ritual from diferent sources. When playing ir feel to me i had to much blue and low black. More playing against control without wasteland. Where i only need one volc and a bayou plus swamp to play. So i sidded out island for bayou. So i had. 4 black. 4 blue and 2 red sources.

I admit I ever watched my manabase as a two level construct. Level 1 - Get into the game with Cantrips and Discard; Level 2 - Provide enough initial (colored) mana to combo around Daze/Wasteland; so I never really cared about if I run 3 or 4 of the same colored IMS as long as I'm able to grab the one I want.

@Pelikanudo
I suspect the whole issue here isn't really about color, but about not finding the second and third IMS against Wasteland/Daze, could that be? I mean, Bryant can go up to 14 lands postboard against Tempo if he brings in the Bayou with 13 MB lands and by that even support the Basics without totally screwing himself.

For me it's totally off to discuss Basics alongside Gemstones and only 12 lands total (hope we did not) because of the sheer lack of quantity of mana and the reduced cardselection to actually find more IMS'.

[Izor]

I do like the idea of basics in order to guarantee that my potentially only land doesn't get Wasted. Though, I haven't liked the Island so far. Turn 1 Fetch for Swamp into Discard spell, turn two fetch for Volc and go off with both B ad R available is strong. But turn 1 Fetch for Island into Cantrip is a problematic play because you cannot have two lands in play on turn two that produce RB, which can be crucial. I don't always have the Petal to help me out.

I'll probably test with a Swamp as my only Basic. The Land base I'm thinking of is:

2 Usea
2 Volc
4 Polluted
4 Mire
1 Swamp

SB: 1 Bayou

[Bryant Cook]

I think you guys are really under selling island. First turn Cantrip into second turn Sea or Volcanic into the appropriate ritual and then Lion's Eye Diamond often suffices, I rarely ever have trouble with my mana as red isn't needed until the combo turn. Here's the thing about the red mana, sometimes it's not needed until post-Ad Nauseam.

[Lemnear]

I do like the idea of basics in order to guarantee that my potentially only land doesn't get Wasted. Though, I haven't liked the Island so far. Turn 1 Fetch for Swamp into Discard spell, turn two fetch for Volc and go off with both B ad R available is strong. But turn 1 Fetch for Island into Cantrip is a problematic play because you cannot have two lands in play on turn two that produce RB, which can be crucial. I don't always have the Petal to help me out

When don't do it? It's exactly what I was talking about before: don't fetch the Island if you need to produce BR turn 2 just because you fear that your opponent POTENTIALLY has a Wasteland.

Having an Island or a Swamp instead of a fetch in your opener is where the problem is, not because of wrong fetch-decisions.

Edit:

I think you guys are really under selling island. First turn Cantrip into second turn Sea or Volcanic into the appropriate ritual and then Lion's Eye Diamond often suffices, I rarely ever have trouble with my mana as red isn't needed until the combo turn. Here's the thing about the red mana, sometimes it's not needed until post-Ad Nauseam.

Having a combination of RoF/IT or DR/BW in your hand but only Island+x as your initial mana for a turn 1/2/3 combo is awkward. Not necessarily having a Wish/IT and the appropiate acceleration is a problem which ANT has not

Edit 2: this means that if you decide to start with the Island you likely need two more IMS in a reasonable timeframe against opposing disruption like Stifle.

[Bryant Cook]

Having a combination of RoF/IT or DR/BW in your hand but only Island+x as your initial mana for a turn 1/2/3 combo is awkward. Not necessarily having a Wish/IT and the appropiate acceleration is a problem which ANT has not

Edit 2: this means that if you decide to start with the Island you likely need two more IMS in a reasonable timeframe against opposing disruption like Stifle.

If this is the case, then don't fetch for it. The odds of naturally drawing it in your opening hand and this scenario happening are very slim. Not to mention, people in this thread give Stifle way too much credit - it's in one MAYBE two decks.

[Lemnear]

If this is the case, then don't fetch for it. The odds of naturally drawing it in your opening hand and this scenario happening are very slim. Not to mention, people in this thread give Stifle way too much credit - it's in one MAYBE two decks.

We will see how RUG Delver, Lands and Team America perform in the upcoming weeks. We played around Wasteland a year ago with 12 lands, so I'm positive that the Sky isn't falling now.

I agree on Stifle, that's why I don't buy it as a reason to run less fetches but Gematones

[Bryant Cook]

We will see how RUG Delver, Lands and Team America perform in the upcoming weeks. We played around Wasteland a year ago with 12 lands, so I'm positive that the Sky isn't falling now.

I agree on Stifle, that's why I don't buy it as a reason to run less fetches but Gematones

We did play around Wasteland with 12 lands a year ago, but if there's room for improvement we're going to find it.

[Togores]

Yeaterday another legacy event
3-2 was my record with no empty main -1 mox +2 cabal. I never missed the empty but 1 time the extra mox.

0-2 mono black hymns, seiZes, leylines, sinkholes, smallpox, trinisphere and 4 wastelands game 2 and 3 game 1 where quite good

0-2 miracles
G1 mulligans
G2 i went for a turn 1 and he had force. After my t1 even if he has force i had land, petal, led. To his mull to 6.


2-1
Affinity with md chalice
G1 gitaxian therapy chalice
G2 thorn t1
G3 t1 kill

2-0
Goblins
G1 turn 3
G2 turn 1

2-0 bug planeswalkers
Both ganes won because nauseam is an instant.

[PartyMonster]

Just qualified for scg Indianapolis day two. Saw waste land all day, everywhere. Everyone is playing waste land. Basics were great. I made some stupid decisions with my list but the one thing I registered right was the basics. Legit, can not express how valuable they were.


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[That0neD00d]

I just got back from my local weekly legacy event. I was running the list with a swamp being my only basic and I can't believe how much I was missing the island. Wasteland was very prevalent even in my smallish playgroup and I really needed a consistent way to cast cantrips. I immediately put it back in as soon as I got home and I have no plans to take it out anytime soon.

[Togores]

Just qualified for scg Indianapolis day two. Saw waste land all day, everywhere. Everyone is playing waste land. Basics were great. I made some stupid decisions with my list but the one thing I registered right was the basics. Legit, can not express how valuable they were.


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Congrats!
Just reading elver post saw this:

Rnd 8: TEPS (0-2) I "think" I could have won the first game but fail to see the line. Die to 16 gobos g1, and board wipe + tendrills for 17 storm g2. (Rode the Adnaus from 8 -> 1 to great success! with the assist from the recently acquired brainstorm for the needed kill card (burning wish)
Rnd 9: Dredge (1-2) Is lotus petals in dredge the new norm? Guy is turbo dredging on me!


Seema like you? May be? Quite funny how ppl think that nauseam fromless than 10 is dangerous. In Tes in all day good. Also won last week from 7 a game.

[Bryant Cook]

Hey everyone,

After watching the coverage of Indy this past weekend, I think it's worth it to be playing Surgicals. I've always used to view them as Reanimator (one of our worst match-ups) hate more than combo hate, but they really break the combo mirror wide open (Plus, there's been a lot of storm combo in the past few months). Because of this, I've had to become a little creative finding room in the sideboard. I initially tried to move the Bayou into the main, but there just isn't a lot for it unless you run it over a Chrome Mox which can lead to awkward mana - so I decided to jam the Infernal Tutor back into the main. It has nothing to do with 9 mana being a lot, because it isn't, but I think it's better than a fourteenth land. The slots in consideration were the third Duress or the third Chrome Mox, we sideboard out Chrome Mox so frequently where it often won't be missed. Now we just side out the forth Infernal. That leaves me with this:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

I really wish there was a way to cut green, I'm sick of playing Abrupt Decay. In those six slots, I wish I could just run another Surgical, 3 Pyroblasts and 2 Chain of Vapor/Wipeaway. The problem with this is a resolved Counterbalance.

[Izor]

I really wish there was a way to cut green, I'm sick of playing Abrupt Decay. In those six slots, I wish I could just run another Surgical, 3 Pyroblasts and 2 Chain of Vapor/Wipeaway. The problem with this is a resolved Counterbalance.

Miracles seems to be going down in usage, at least at the Indy Open. Maybe it's viable to drop green and try to combat CB with Discard and/or Pyroblasts in the future.

Surgical seems strong for the pseudo mirror vs ANT and against Reanimator/Dredge. This is one reason why I like TES over ANT; ANT's main win condition is very susceptible to graveyard hate, while TES' two main win routes don't really care about the graveyard at all. ANT gets splash-hated a lot these days. I'll give Surgical a try as well.

[Lemnear]

Miracles seems to be going down in usage, at least at the Indy Open. Maybe it's viable to drop green and try to combat CB with Discard and/or Pyroblasts in the future.

Surgical seems strong for the pseudo mirror vs ANT and against Reanimator/Dredge. This is one reason why I like TES over ANT; ANT's main win condition is very susceptible to graveyard hate, while TES' two main win routes don't really care about the graveyard at all. ANT gets splash-hated a lot these days. I'll give Surgical a try as well.

I can only speculate why Miracles is so unpopular in the Staates and their SCG Open grinders other than the time-investment it requires to learn piloting it at an acceptable level. I wait for the breakout every open tbh and in Europe it's completely unthinkable that you can dodge the matchup. You can't win a tournament if you can't beat Miracles. It's Euro-Legacy's bitch-test.

Surgical is fine in the storm-Mirror, I guess. Dredge/Reanimator are somewhat rare decks compared to SneakShow's & OmniTell's numbers and Extracting passive disruption like FoWs leaves you with carddisadvantage against the later decks. I'm not sure TES is the storm deck which needs dedicated boarding in the storm-mirror, especially if it's a one-trick-pony like Silence was in the matchup years ago before Probe enabled your opponents to Check for such tricks for free. If I consider yard-hate to be required, I'd pick Planar Void to fuck with Dredge/Reanimator/ANT/Lands/Mongoose/Tarmogoyf/KotR/DRS/etc. instead

With Fatty.dec marking ~16% at the last opens day 2, Bribery is back on my Radar as a tool.

[ManCharm]

In testing of the basics, I found that I was indeed more resilient to wasteland, but the games go slower, making me a lot more susceptible to discard and permanent based hate like Thalia. I haven't tested it enough for hard numbers, but I feel like with all the reanimator and BUG delver, it's better to just get 'em dead since their clock is so fast. It's likely due to my lack of experience/misplays, but BUG feels like a 70-30 matchup if I let it go past 2. It seems if we're willing to move in basics then high power mana sources like cabal ritual seem more valuable. Perhaps I'm assessing the matchup incorrectly though.

We have 2 legacy events weekly where I am, and its only between 12-15 regulars so there's a small amount of inbreeding, making testing hard to derive accurate results.

[Bryant Cook]

I can only speculate why Miracles is so unpopular in the Staates and their SCG Open grinders other than the time-investment it requires to learn piloting it at an acceptable level. I wait for the breakout every open tbh and in Europe it's completely unthinkable that you can dodge the matchup. You can't win a tournament if you can't beat Miracles. It's Euro-Legacy's bitch-test.

Surgical is fine in the storm-Mirror, I guess. Dredge/Reanimator are somewhat rare decks compared to SneakShow's & OmniTell's numbers and Extracting passive disruption like FoWs leaves you with carddisadvantage against the later decks. I'm not sure TES is the storm deck which needs dedicated boarding in the storm-mirror, especially if it's a one-trick-pony like Silence was in the matchup years ago before Probe enabled your opponents to Check for such tricks for free. If I consider yard-hate to be required, I'd pick Planar Void to fuck with Dredge/Reanimator/ANT/Lands/Mongoose/Tarmogoyf/KotR/DRS/etc. instead

With Fatty.dec marking ~16% at the last opens day 2, Bribery is back on my Radar as a tool.

If you opt to run the pair of Wipeaway, it's effectively the same as Decay in the miracles match-up. Ben Weinburg only ran two Decay in his side this past weekend and took second.

[PartyMonster]

I think everyone needs to chill on the hard debate and calling people out on ideas. Frankly, when it comes down to storm playing the list you are comfortable with is what is important. More games are won with skill than the number perfect list to begin with. Honestly, I have been playing a two decay, two blast split off and on for a few months and that has seemed fine. I'm not sure if I'm on board with wipe away but I haven't tested it. Cutting green does provide an additional sideboard slot and I think it merits testing. I played miracles in dc and in indy with a two blast two decay split to board in, It was fine. I won both matches. Xantid swarm has even been feeling risky in the match up because pilots seem to be on the tech, leaving in swords to plowshares as an answer for bug. Blast is solid against them, it kills meddling Mage. Unfortunately it's it's a bust against cannonist. Surgical is solid, call me dumb but I have even brought boarded it in addition to pyroclasm against elves to rip their cabal therapy a out of their deck. Pyroblast and surgicals are both extremely flexible cards.


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[Bryant Cook]

It's just a concept, but:

3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wipeaway // Pithing Needle // Chain of Vapor
2 Pyroclasm
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

1.) Wipeaway would be for the Miracles match-up and likely Sphere/Chalice Based decks (Not as good here, but you no longer run the risk of losing spells to your green source being wastelanded). It much easier to cast off basics and then fetching on an end step.
2.) Chain of Vapor would be more ideal in a Death & Taxes/MUD/Permanent based hate metagame as it's easier to cast and wouldn't be sided against Counterbalance based decks.
3.) Pithing Needle would be for a higher Miracles / Sneak & Show / Reanimator based metagame.

[wonderPreaux]

Just an idea, but if you want something for Storm/Reanimator, why not run Flusterstorm? It's harder to FoW/Daze, and it can be played off our basic Island in hymn+wasteland or stifle+daze+wasteland matchups.

[PartyMonster]

Is it a terrible idea to test

2 blast
2 surgical
2 needle
2 wipe away
2 pyroclasm
1 snare
1 massacre
1 tendrils
1 empty
1 pif




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[Bryant Cook]

Just an idea, but if you want something for Storm/Reanimator, why not run Flusterstorm? It's harder to FoW/Daze, and it can be played off our basic Island in hymn+wasteland or stifle+daze+wasteland matchups.

Doesn't deal with Counterbalance (Pyroblast) and would be sort of redundant next to it.

I just finished 7 postboard games against Miracles with the SB above, I never missed Decay (went 4-3 total, one of the losses was just going for it in the fourth game after opening the previous 3 with Probes and not seeing a Force in any of the openers. No justice.). Wipeaway was just as effective, Pyroblast really shined against the 3 clique version he was running.

[wonderPreaux]

Doesn't deal with Counterbalance (Pyroblast) and would be sort of redundant next to it.

I just finished 7 postboard games against Miracles with the SB above, I never missed Decay. Wipeaway was just as effective, Pyroblast really shined against the 3 clique version he was running.

I was thinking in the Extraction spots, actually. I like that Flusterstorm covers those bases and also gives you some help against Stifle/Hymn. I do like the idea of no green, though, since that opens up some slots. I've got midterms this week, but if I find some time I could give a 3c build with Flusters a try.

[Bryant Cook]

I was thinking in the Extraction spots, actually. I like that Flusterstorm covers those bases and also gives you some help against Stifle/Hymn. I do like the idea of no green, though, since that opens up some slots. I've got midterms this week, but if I find some time I could give a 3c build with Flusters a try.

I like Surgical more against Storm (ANT in particular) because you can cripple them very easily by removing all 4 Infernal Tutors, between the discard spells and Probes, I doubt they're going to run head first into it.

[wonderPreaux]

I like Surgical more against Storm (ANT in particular) because you can cripple them very easily by removing all 4 Infernal Tutors, between the discard spells and Probes, I doubt they're going to run head first into it.

Given how known Extraction is in ANT mirrors, I'm not sure how consistently you can get people with it, there are also odd cases like Grim Tutor in addition to a general cognizance that should exist around it. What I like about Flusterstorm is that you don't need the opponent to run into it, Flusterstorm stopping a cantrip or discard spell so you can followup with a "protected from their protection" turn 2 is a pretty real deal. And even if the opponent goes t1 Duress, I'd rather have the lightning rod of Flusterstorm to protect my LEDs or other important cards, whereas an opponent can simply contort to play around Extraction.

Still, what pushes Flusterstorm over the edge for me is that, with the inclusion of Basics, it becomes very feasible to beat up on Daze/Stifle decks that would ordinarily plague my manabase of all duals and fetches.

[Lemnear]

Given how known Extraction is in ANT mirrors, I'm not sure how consistently you can get people with it, there are also odd cases like Grim Tutor in addition to a general cognizance that should exist around it. What I like about Flusterstorm is that you don't need the opponent to run into it, Flusterstorm stopping a cantrip or discard spell so you can followup with a "protected from their protection" turn 2 is a pretty real deal. And even if the opponent goes t1 Duress, I'd rather have the lightning rod of Flusterstorm to protect my LEDs or other important cards, whereas an opponent can simply contort to play around Extraction.

Still, what pushes Flusterstorm over the edge for me is that, with the inclusion of Basics, it becomes very feasible to beat up on Daze/Stifle decks that would ordinarily plague my manabase of all duals and fetches.

Flusterstorm in ANT was introduced by Carsten to slow down opposing combo decks so you can reach T.hold and set up your combo. Given that TES traditional layout with Moxen and EtW isn't suited to "slow down the Game" I doubt it's more effective to sit on an untapped Island rather than aggressively cantripping into the win. Using Flusterstorms to protect LEDs from discard is a strange idea, as you can simply play them and keep them safe from discard anyways.

Flusterstorm is fine for slower decks in the combo mirror, but this deck is not one of them. You mix a "slow" approach to storm with "fast" ones in a single deck. Its fine if you pair Flusterstorm with High Tide or Cabal Ritual as those accelerators need time to gain their full potential, but if you run low-powered, fast cards like Moxen and RoFs, you can't take the control-seat for the first turns.

It's pretty much the same problem I have with the basics: You can't run plenty of cards which mainly support the Belcher-Mode, if your average gameplan is to work with 3 IMS because of the basics. It's an unsolvable strategic dualism we can see in other matchups like D&T or Team America as well, as the question, if you go for a slow and steady manabase with Basics and get wrecked by Hymn/Thalia/etc. or if you try to race Hymn/Thalia/etc. by fetching Duals and get wrecked by Wasteland, has no definitive answer.


In testing of the basics, I found that I was indeed more resilient to wasteland, but the games go slower, making me a lot more susceptible to discard and permanent based hate like Thalia. I haven't tested it enough for hard numbers, but I feel like with all the reanimator and BUG delver, it's better to just get 'em dead since their clock is so fast. It's likely due to my lack of experience/misplays, but BUG feels like a 70-30 matchup if I let it go past 2. It seems if we're willing to move in basics then high power mana sources like cabal ritual seem more valuable. Perhaps I'm assessing the matchup incorrectly though.

We have 2 legacy events weekly where I am, and its only between 12-15 regulars so there's a small amount of inbreeding, making testing hard to derive accurate results.

The bolded part is the natural conclusion of needing up to 3 IMS' if you start the Game with an Island and the resulting dualism I described before. TES isn't suited to come back from being hit by Hymn+Wasteland because of the decks low-powered manasources which can't make up for the cardloss caused by Hymn.


If you opt to run the pair of Wipeaway, it's effectively the same as Decay in the miracles match-up. Ben Weinburg only ran two Decay in his side this past weekend and took second.

We should not miss that Miracles was really underplayed that weekend and that WipeAway also has to deal with spheres and stuff, if it takes Decays spot and 4 mana to bounce a Thorn is hardcore, not to talk about the auto-loss you suffer once your opponent drops the second resistor, because you can't tear them appart one by one. I'm not too troubled with the possibility of a 3cc card on top to flip to Counterbalance either, rendering the Split Second ineffective, but the total number of only 2 actual outs to a resolved Counterbalance is worrying me.

In regards to a list with basics: For a european metagame I would rather replace the Island with a Tropical one, so Wasteland can't take out your access to green mana that easily, which allows you to board Decays even against decks which feature Wastelands. (ergo Tropical + Bayou in the 75)


Edit: Chris, here is the requested list I run atm:


4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
3 Crystal Vein
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Planar Void
1 Duress
1 Bribery
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

[Bryant Cook]

We should not miss that Miracles was really underplayed that weekend and that WipeAway also has to deal with spheres and stuff, if it takes Decays spot and 4 mana to bounce a Thorn is hardcore, not to talk about the auto-loss you suffer once your opponent drops the second resistor, because you can't tear them appart one by one. I'm not too troubled with the possibility of a 3cc card on top to flip to Counterbalance either, rendering the Split Second ineffective, but the total number of only 2 actual outs to a resolved Counterbalance is worrying me.

In regards to a list with basics: For a european metagame I would rather replace the Island with a Tropical one, so Wasteland can't take out your access to green mana that easily, which allows you to board Decays even against decks which feature Wastelands. (ergo Tropical + Bayou in the 75)


It's really hard to preach about how basics are bad when Swamp is better than Bayou in most instances and then you run three colorless lands in a three color deck that wants RB on turn two. I doubt you've even tried them, more than one person in this thread as vouched that they're great, Magic is more than just theory based strategies.

How many games do you come back against two artifact hate pieces anyway? Not too many I imagine, you would need a third land to win after Decay either way as GB can't be cast with a Volcanic, making most instances where it might as well be Wipe Away.

[Lemnear]

It's really hard to preach about how basics are bad when Swamp is better than Bayou in most instances and then you run three colorless lands in a three color deck that wants RB on turn two. I doubt you've even tried them, more than one person in this thread as vouched that they're great, Magic is more than just theory based strategies.

I wasn't talking about Swamp or Bayou (which is only a matter of SB space) as mentioned a few post above. It's about Island, which doesn't contribute to "BR on turn two" either. The Island and the Sol Lands are both different directions to adress longer games (like most Games against blue are anyways), but one option gives me the confidence to play and succeed without Moxen, while the other is not. Both approaches calculate with 3 IMS total. My own testing never convinced me that Basics + Moxen are better suited to survive longer games than Duals and Sol Lands, just because the Sol Lands can equalize the mana-loss caused by Wasteland (not the color-loss however; something not even Moxen can nearly guarantee).

Get me right gentlemen, as the following is not meant to be taken personal, but some users this thread has seen over the last year vouched for various stuff and on/off techs like Cabal Ritual + Gemstone Mine and I'm glad we never took that as an absolute testament of superiority, but kept questioning our own conclusions to keep the development-wheel spinning.

[Bryant Cook]

I wasn't talking about Swamp or Bayou (which is only a matter of SB space) as mentioned a few post above. It's about Island, which doesn't contribute to "BR on turn two" either. The Island and the Sol Lands are both different directions to adress longer games (like most Games against blue are anyways), but one option gives me the confidence to play and succeed without Moxen, while the other is not. Both approaches calculate with 3 IMS total. My own testing never convinced me that Basics + Moxen are better suited to survive longer games than Duals and Sol Lands, just because the Sol Lands can equalize the mana-loss caused by Wasteland (not the color-loss however; something not even Moxen can nearly guarantee).

Get me right gentlemen, as the following is not meant to be taken personal, but some users this thread has seen over the last year vouched for various stuff and on/off techs like Cabal Ritual + Gemstone Mine and I'm glad we never took that as an absolute testament of superiority, but kept questioning our own conclusions to keep the development-wheel spinning.

TES's strength has never been a longer game which is what the "Sol Lands" are attempting to do, the problem with the longer game plan is you simply become a worse version of ANT as in a longer game Cabal Ritual is better than Rite of Flame. Basics paired with Moxen is something you're not understanding since you haven't tried it:

T1 - Island, Ponder.
T2 - Misty Rainforest, Rite of Flame and then Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal (both provide the third color of mana necessary to win on turn two while avoiding Wasteland. Use your fetches accordingly to what you can spare onto the Mox, it's not that difficult.)

These things said, I'm not likely going to abandon green for any larger event coming up. But I think it's worth attempting to see if it's actually necessary or not.

[Lemnear]

TES's strength has never been a longer game which is what the "Sol Lands" are attempting to do, the problem with the longer game plan is you simply become a worse version of ANT as in a longer game Cabal Ritual is better than Rite of Flame. Basics paired with Moxen is something you're not understanding since you haven't tried it:

T1 - Island, Ponder.
T2 - Misty Rainforest, Rite of Flame and then Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal (both provide the third color of mana necessary to win on turn two while avoiding Wasteland. Use your fetches accordingly to what you can spare onto the Mox, it's not that difficult.)

These things said, I'm not likely going to abandon green for any larger event coming up. But I think it's worth attempting to see if it's actually necessary or not.

Yeah, it "has never been" it's strength and I'm experimenting if it's not possible to change that. I agree that in a longer game Cabal Ritual has advantages due to it's +3 in mana, so I wanted to explore if I can't distribute the pressure on several +2 sources to make up for RoFs limits.

I'm well aware about the gameplan with Island. Seeing it as given that you have a Fetch and a Petal or a Mox with the fitting imprint at hand (aka 3 IMS) in the face of mulligans/Discard/FoW/Stifle/Daze/Pierce/etc. is not convincing even if we ignore the remaining requirements for a turn 2 combo like having access to a Tutor/Wish and at least 3 more mana. It's fine if the aggressive build works out, but for me it's not the case atm. :)

[Bryant Cook]

I'm well aware about the gameplan with Island. Seeing it as given that you have a Fetch and a Petal or a Mox with the fitting imprint at hand (aka 3 IMS) in the face of mulligans/Discard/FoW/Stifle/Daze/Pierce/etc. is not convincing even if we ignore the remaining requirements for a turn 2 combo like having access to a Tutor/Wish and at least 3 more mana. It's fine if the aggressive build works out, but for me it's not the case atm. :)

The deck is roughly 40% mana and you think it's going to be tough to find/have 3 sources of mana on turns 2-3? Discard and Stifle are very rarely in the same lists, Spell Pierce usually only ever see two copies in a list. Daze, Force of Will and mulligans (Which we do less frequently now due to additional lands and Probes) are the common issues I see here, but in the example listed above, the Island could easily be the mana source that pays for Daze. If you're expecting to play against all five of those cards regularly, you have the wrong deck.

[wonderPreaux]

Flusterstorm in ANT was introduced by Carsten to slow down opposing combo decks so you can reach T.hold and set up your combo. Given that TES traditional layout with Moxen and EtW isn't suited to "slow down the Game" I doubt it's more effective to sit on an untapped Island rather than aggressively cantripping into the win. Using Flusterstorms to protect LEDs from discard is a strange idea, as you can simply play them and keep them safe from discard anyways.

Flusterstorm is fine for slower decks in the combo mirror, but this deck is not one of them. You mix a "slow" approach to storm with "fast" ones in a single deck. Its fine if you pair Flusterstorm with High Tide or Cabal Ritual as those accelerators need time to gain their full potential, but if you run low-powered, fast cards like Moxen and RoFs, you can't take the control-seat for the first turns.

It's pretty much the same problem I have with the basics: You can't run plenty of cards which mainly support the Belcher-Mode, if your average gameplan is to work with 3 IMS because of the basics. It's an unsolvable strategic dualism we can see in other matchups like D&T or Team America as well, as the question, if you go for a slow and steady manabase with Basics and get wrecked by Hymn/Thalia/etc. or if you try to race Hymn/Thalia/etc. by fetching Duals and get wrecked by Wasteland, has no definitive answer.
What I meant by Fluster "defending" LEDs is that, were you to get Duressed by an opponent on the play, I'd rather reveal a dangerous hand + fluster than a dangerous hand + surgical, because a storm opponent can just gimp you and pivot to ad nauseam or other lines to play around surgical, whereas the opponent HAS to make the effort to take Flusterstorm at some point, so I might get to keep my combo hand intact.

moreover, i think you are misunderstanding the role I think Flusterstorm should be playing in the Storm mirror. as we are generally the faster combo, use fluster as a tempo-counter to choke the opponent on the 1-2 turns they could actually attempt to disrupt

[Lemnear]

What I meant by Fluster "defending" LEDs is that, were you to get Duressed by an opponent on the play, I'd rather reveal a dangerous hand + fluster than a dangerous hand + surgical, because a storm opponent can just gimp you and pivot to ad nauseam or other lines to play around surgical, whereas the opponent HAS to make the effort to take Flusterstorm at some point, so I might get to keep my combo hand intact.

moreover, i think you are misunderstanding the role I think Flusterstorm should be playing in the Storm mirror. as we are generally the faster combo, use fluster as a tempo-counter to choke the opponent on the 1-2 turns they could actually attempt to disrupt

Got you now on the LED topic. I don't think we can afford to keep an island untapped to counter potential disruption if this means we can't dig for our own combo

[wonderPreaux]

Got you now on the LED topic. I don't think we can afford to keep an island untapped to counter potential disruption if this means we can't dig for our own combo

If you have to choose between digging and Flusterstorm, dig. The point of Fluster in the Storm mirror is to tide you over on the turn you need to get that last land drop before combo, or get to that last combat step with goblins or w/e. Here's a better way to think about it, you open this:

Rite of Flame
Dark Ritual
Polluted Delta
Underground Sea
Ad Nauseam
Lion's Eye Diamond
Flusterstorm/Surgical Extraction

I would much rather be holding Flusterstorm as opposed to Surgical there, as my hand just needs to not get hit for 1 turn and then I win. And while my example may seem a bit stilted, its to illustrate the point that TES doesn't need to dig as much as something like ANT, since we play a higher proportion of gas in the first place. The problem I see with Surgical in the Storm mirror is that it makes your discard generally better, but you don't want to be exchanging discard, you want to just combo off. Flusterstorm is something I can play as a Time Walk so I can combo off on t2 or w/e.

And that's just the Storm mirror. Flusterstorm is probably equally good as Extraction against Reanimator because what you lose in needing mana open you gain in resiliency to their Dazes/FoW. Flusterstorm can also punish mono-U combo keeping on single cantrips or other sketchy keeps.

[Lemnear]

I don't get how Flusterstorm is significantly better than discard in these scenarios to justify SB slots. You can trade discard for discard to protect your hand or take opposing counterspells while Flusterstorm is a pure defensive tool which can even block your hellbent but not strip a counter.

[halfie44]

Hi all! second time posting here but long time reader and I have finally completed my paper list online giving me more chances to play legacy (1 to test for GP to get Pro points as recently Q for PT and 2 so I can play my fav deck as every weekend I'm grinding a PPTQ at the moment) and thus feel like I can start to give more input as I play more and more with the list (currently in my 3rd daily at 2-1).

I can see the argument for fluster storm but I prefer surgical...its more versatile and with a deck like this being versatile is important I just had a dredge player instant concede when I cast surgical...I don't feel like I would want to bring flusterstorm in vs any deck I wouldn't bring in surgical and surgical can come in against more lists.

now if we was discussing using flusterstorm to fight flusterstorm/counters I could maybe see it but I'm not having trouble in that area and I don't think the deck struggles against counters due to the about of discard we have and angles we can take.

[wonderPreaux]

I don't get how Flusterstorm is significantly better than discard in these scenarios to justify SB slots. You can trade discard for discard to protect your hand or take opposing counterspells while Flusterstorm is a pure defensive tool which can even block your hellbent but not strip a counter.

Countering their t1 discard beats discarding it in any scenario where they have more than 1 discard spell, which can be pretty real given that ANT should likely be looking for discard or a fast combo against TES. Moreover, if I discard their discard, then they simply cantrip instead, whereas a counter forces them to tap out, so their worse off in terms of development.

Regarding Blue combo, you use the Fluster as a way to choke off their tap-outs for Show and Tell, since they would need 2 FoW to beat fluster, or, if you do have a fast combo hand, you just squelch their setup spells to throw them off balance. What I like about Flusterstorm in our current discussed configuration (4c, no pyroblasts) is that it provides different sorts of value to multiple unfriendly matchups. Just because Karsten introduced it in ANT as a way to slow the game down for Cabal Ritual doesn't mean you have to use it that way in any given situation, and if you insist on doing so, then I can see why you'd have a hard time justifying its use.

[Lemnear]

Countering their t1 discard beats discarding it in any scenario where they have more than 1 discard spell, which can be pretty real given that ANT should likely be looking for discard or a fast combo against TES. Moreover, if I discard their discard, then they simply cantrip instead, whereas a counter forces them to tap out, so their worse off in terms of development.

Regarding Blue combo, you use the Fluster as a way to choke off their tap-outs for Show and Tell, since they would need 2 FoW to beat fluster, or, if you do have a fast combo hand, you just squelch their setup spells to throw them off balance. What I like about Flusterstorm in our current discussed configuration (4c, no pyroblasts) is that it provides different sorts of value to multiple unfriendly matchups. Just because Karsten introduced it in ANT as a way to slow the game down for Cabal Ritual doesn't mean you have to use it that way in any given situation, and if you insist on doing so, then I can see why you'd have a hard time justifying its use.

Wasn't it the intent to protect your hand from discard or disrupt your opponents combo with the help of Flusterstorm? If your opponent is stripped from his/her discard and has no way to interact with you, so he/she goes cantripping instead, isn't the goal achieved here? Sure there is a difference if your opponent has two discard spells or from a pure tempo-perspective in regards to Hymn being countered that way, but discard serves double duty for your gameplan unlike Flusterstorm which is what I care about :)

[wonderPreaux]

Wasn't it the intent to protect your hand from discard or disrupt your opponents combo with the help of Flusterstorm? If your opponent is stripped from his/her discard and has no way to interact with you, so he/she goes cantripping instead, isn't the goal achieved here? Sure there is a difference if your opponent has two discard spells or from a pure tempo-perspective in regards to Hymn being countered that way, but discard serves double duty for your gameplan unlike Flusterstorm which is what I care about :)

You still have discard though, do you not? In storm mirrors, fluster would be replacing the underwhelming EtW and likely putting a Tutor into the SB to enable the Ad Nauseam line, that or a Chrome Mox if you have a Tutor SB already. seems like a fine tradeup to me swapping EtW/Mox for getting to tempo them out of a turn. Whereas against BUG or something, the Flusterstorm serves an important purpose of stopping not just Hymn, but also letting you defend from stifle on other fetches and doing it off of your basic Island

[Lemnear]

You still have discard though, do you not? In storm mirrors, fluster would be replacing the underwhelming EtW and likely putting a Tutor into the SB to enable the Ad Nauseam line, that or a Chrome Mox if you have a Tutor SB already. seems like a fine tradeup to me swapping EtW/Mox for getting to tempo them out of a turn. Whereas against BUG or something, the Flusterstorm serves an important purpose of stopping not just Hymn, but also letting you defend from stifle on other fetches and doing it off of your basic Island

I was used to swap the MB EtW with the SB Discard Spell to achieve similar. I could go that far and point at the increased Chance of the "T1 - Swamp, Duress / T2 - Volcanic, combo" scenario if you run more discard from the SB than Flusterstorms or protect your second Fetch from Stifle that way.

I see the value of making your opponent waste mana and a turn just to run into Flusterstorm. but the card is plain reactionary and does nothing against opponents counterspells, Resistors, Sneak Attacks, etc. while Duress can get rid of those problems early

[firstshot]

If you opt to run the pair of Wipeaway, it's effectively the same as Decay in the miracles match-up. Ben WIEnburg only ran two Decay in his side this past weekend and took second.

My match ups were as followed. Ben Ball and I only played 2 Abrupt Decay's b/c we only wanted them for Miracles and wanted to add the Empty to the SB for RUG which we expected to have a bigger showing. My 2 losses in the swiss were to UWR Delver and shardless bug.

rd 1 burn
rd 2 miracles
rd 3 maverick
rd 4 storm mirror
rd 5 Elves
rd 6 punishing lands
rd 7 sneak and show
rd 8 RUG delver
rd 9 blue lands

rd 10 uwr delver
rd 11 shardless bug
rd 12 death and taxes
rd 13 sneak and show
rd 14 maverick
rd 15 ID

t8 elves
t4 mirror
Finals Bug Delver

[Ellistann]

Going to be going to a new town that hopefully has a Legacy scene. Trying to brush the dust off my decks.

Previously I had no U. Seas, and so was using Watery Graves as a subpar substitute.

I now have a U. Sea, a tropical Island, a bayou and all the fetches and shocks. I have playsets of Gemstone mines, city of brass, and mana confluence.

Do I create the 'correct' manabase with Steam vents as the Volcanic Island and a single Watery Grave masquerading as U. Sea # 2?

Or do I splash with the rainbow lands?

Or do I just run a different deck since the lifeloss from the shocks/rainbow is too much for the deck to handle?

[Lemnear]

Going to be going to a new town that hopefully has a Legacy scene. Trying to brush the dust off my decks.

Previously I had no U. Seas, and so was using Watery Graves as a subpar substitute.

I now have a U. Sea, a tropical Island, a bayou and all the fetches and shocks. I have playsets of Gemstone mines, city of brass, and mana confluence.

Do I create the 'correct' manabase with Steam vents as the Volcanic Island and a single Watery Grave masquerading as U. Sea # 2?

Or do I splash with the rainbow lands?

Or do I just run a different deck since the lifeloss from the shocks/rainbow is too much for the deck to handle?

The deck can handle the lifeloss from Rainbows, but the lack of shuffling can bite your ass. You need two black and two red sources to fetch anyways in case of Wasteland, so I would not bother with Rainbows. If you have a Badlands you can use it as your Volcanic #2 to minimize the damage dealt to yourself. If this is not an option available, you can either accept that you will lose games due to the increased Self-inflicted damage (and be more conservative with Probes/AN) or react via deckbuilding options like squeezing more Moxen into the deck to Balance the relation between IMS/flipped cards total for AN (talking about up to 4 Moxen)

[Arguru]

Hi all!i played the deck sunday at a ~30 ppl tournament,ending undefeated in swiss,but losing the first match of the top 8...my list was:

4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
1 empty the warrens
1 ad nauseam
2 chrome mox
4 Lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 cabal therapy
3 duress
4 gitaxian probe
1 island
1 swamp
2 underground sea
2 volcanic island
4 polluted Delta
2 misty Rainforest
1 bloodstained mire

// SIDEBOARD
3 abrupt decay
3 xantid swarm
1 Bayou
2 pyroclasm
1 thoughtseize
1 past in flames
1 massacre
1 void snare
1 Empty the warrens
1 tendrils of agony

Some thoughts about the list:
-thoughtseize wasn't good,i'll cut it
-never wished for massacre,but i think it's a good card to have in the sideboard
-i don't really liked basic lands,but i think they're ok if you expect a lot of tempo decks
-i never missed the 3rd mox and the sideboard infernal tutor

I faced:
-miracles (2:0)
-UR landstill (2:1)
-death and taxes (2:1)
-ID
-ID
Top 8
-miracles (1:2) he was playing a 4 ponder list with 2 flusterstorm and a vendilion mb,and another 2 and 2 in the sb

Has anyone tested sb surgical?how does it works?

[halfie44]

Has anyone tested sb surgical?how does it works?

Congrats on the finish! I have been playing surgical online in dailys and really liking it as a one of helps to clear up some matches were you dont really have options to sideboard in - Storm, reanimator, dredge, manaless dredge and alot of these matchups can help lead to a quick concede.

Not sure if its worth the slot over something else but currently Im going over different sideboard options - planar void, returns etc.

I'm trying a one of lim duls in the maindeck over the third chrome mox but have yet to see it over 8 rounds of legacy so if anyone has any input that would be great and also Im really struggling vs miracles if anyone has any tips....yesterday I went turn 1 (on draw, i had probe) make 16 goblins due to 3 lands in hand and he had to find either a terminus or a brainstorm to put his in hand terminus to the top..he got there but game 2 was a disaster.

[Lemnear]

Congrats on the finish! I have been playing surgical online in dailys and really liking it as a one of helps to clear up some matches were you dont really have options to sideboard in - Storm, reanimator, dredge, manaless dredge and alot of these matchups can help lead to a quick concede.

Not sure if its worth the slot over something else but currently Im going over different sideboard options - planar void, returns etc.

I'm trying a one of lim duls in the maindeck over the third chrome mox but have yet to see it over 8 rounds of legacy so if anyone has any input that would be great and also Im really struggling vs miracles if anyone has any tips....yesterday I went turn 1 (on draw, i had probe) make 16 goblins due to 3 lands in hand and he had to find either a terminus or a brainstorm to put his in hand terminus to the top..he got there but game 2 was a disaster.

My ususal problem with extraction effects is, that they do nothing against disruption/enablers in your opponents hand unlike discard. Reanimator and Dredge are just a marginal part of the metagame, TES can play around Surgical and ANT will likely pick your hand appart anyways before they combo. Most of the time the card is fighting windmills for the price of carddisadvantage unless your opponent is greedy or stupid and gets blown out by it or you can snatch a random second copy of a card from their hand. Even messing with SDT or Brainstorm is just minimal impact to actually justify Surgicals inclusion.

[Bryant Cook]

I played the new list last night, it felt very good. I ended up siding in Surgical versus a UBR Pyromancer deck has he had Snapcasters, Therapies, and Digs.

[ThiefSlayer]

How do you guys feel about changing 4 cabal therapy and 3 duress for 4 duress and 3 cabal therapy?

Since I've put the 4th infernal tutor in the main and took off EtW from the main, I chosed only a few times the EtW route, and so the EtW interaction with Cabal Therapy hasn't compensated for the times Therapy missed (due to lack of knowledge of the enemy deck, brainstorms in response, different counters in hand). In all of these cases, duress would have worked. It's only bad against hatebears, but I also wonder how many times we had the chance to hit hatebears with cabal therapy to compensate.

I'm going to a ~50 people tournament this weekend, so I hope the experience can bring me some enlightment about it. Still, I'm pretty confidant it's at least an ok exchange (also, since it's a new season on the tournament people may have changed completely their decks, so missing therapies would be awkward)

[Bryant Cook]

How do you guys feel about changing 4 cabal therapy and 3 duress for 4 duress and 3 cabal therapy?

Since I've put the 4th infernal tutor in the main and took off EtW from the main, I chosed only a few times the EtW route, and so the EtW interaction with Cabal Therapy hasn't compensated for the times Therapy missed (due to lack of knowledge of the enemy deck, brainstorms in response, different counters in hand). In all of these cases, duress would have worked. It's only bad against hatebears, but I also wonder how many times we had the chance to hit hatebears with cabal therapy to compensate.

I'm going to a ~50 people tournament this weekend, so I hope the experience can bring me some enlightment about it. Still, I'm pretty confidant it's at least an ok exchange (also, since it's a new season on the tournament people may have changed completely their decks, so missing therapies would be awkward)

I still play the Empty main so that 4 Therapy makes sense for me, if you're not? Swap the discard numbers, it's such a small percentage where it'll be barely noticeable (if you want to see the difference put the 4th Duress upside down inside the sleeve, this way when you draw it you can know what would've been more effective).

[Lemnear]

How do you guys feel about changing 4 cabal therapy and 3 duress for 4 duress and 3 cabal therapy?

Since I've put the 4th infernal tutor in the main and took off EtW from the main, I chosed only a few times the EtW route, and so the EtW interaction with Cabal Therapy hasn't compensated for the times Therapy missed (due to lack of knowledge of the enemy deck, brainstorms in response, different counters in hand). In all of these cases, duress would have worked. It's only bad against hatebears, but I also wonder how many times we had the chance to hit hatebears with cabal therapy to compensate.

I'm going to a ~50 people tournament this weekend, so I hope the experience can bring me some enlightment about it. Still, I'm pretty confidant it's at least an ok exchange (also, since it's a new season on the tournament people may have changed completely their decks, so missing therapies would be awkward)

I guess in practice you only witness a difference after dozens of goldfishes and whenever you plan to keep EtW playlines for 6 or 8 mana viable at least from the Sideboard. I however suspect the real problem here is your Therapy timing. Casting the Spell without gained Knowledge of the enemies deck, not immediately profiting from Brainstorms hiding counterspells or such stuff are preventable mistakes in general. Exceptions to the rule of casting your discard close/in your combo turns only apply in the combo mirror. Missing with a Therapy should usually be a good sign for your combo :)

[ManCharm]

I have an IQ in two weeks in Columbia, and I was wondering if the overall meta shift was hard enough to warrant trying something new on a bigger level. I am pretty comfy with the gemstone mines, but I see the value of the basics after some testing, I have had a few situations where I ponder and would've kept had the land inside the ponder been G Mine but it was a basic and forced a shuffle/ drew one and it choked me to death.

Basically (no pun intended) do you think the basics are powerful enough rn to warrant a relatively unfamiliar list?


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[ManCharm]

Afterthought. It also means I have only 1 green source to fight delver decks if I bring in decay (BUG delver for example)


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[Lemnear]

Basically (no pun intended) do you think the basics are powerful enough rn to warrant a relatively unfamiliar list

I'm not quite sure what your intent is here. Maybe it's because it's Saturday 6am and I'm in a subway home, boozed and with a napping GF drooling at my coat lol.


Afterthought. It also means I have only 1 green source to fight delver decks if I bring in decay (BUG delver for example)

You should not board Decay against BUG Delver/Team America. They don't have permanents you need to destroy to be able to win on your own.

P.S. Forgive my usual drunk Fr/Sa morning posts. 😅

[ManCharm]

I'm not quite sure what your intent is here. Maybe it's because it's Saturday 6am and I'm in a subway home, boozed and with a napping GF drooling at my coat lol.



You should not board Decay against BUG Delver/Team America. They don't have permanents you need to destroy to be able to win on your own.

P.S. Forgive my usual drunk Fr/Sa morning posts. 😅

It's all good ;) hope you had a good time!

I just know this deck's value is based on pilot familiarity, and making changes before big events makes me a bit nervous, but I guess I'll never know if it's actually better or not if I don't just go for it.

Also, thanks for the tip, I wasn't sure if it was right or not, just killing their goyf/delver seemed valuable to buy time but maybe I'm addressing that matchup incorrectly

[Lemnear]

It's all good ;) hope you had a good time!

I just know this deck's value is based on pilot familiarity, and making changes before big events makes me a bit nervous, but I guess I'll never know if it's actually better or not if I don't just go for it.

Also, thanks for the tip, I wasn't sure if it was right or not, just killing their goyf/delver seemed valuable to buy time but maybe I'm addressing that matchup incorrectly

Sorry, that I wasn't able to grasp your point earlier today. After a late Breakfast and a even later lunch I now know it was about the insecurity of switching from Gemstones to Basics right before a tournament and the different gameplan in case of appearing Wastelands. Here, I would dare to advice to NOT unneccessarily play around Wastelands without actually KNOWING that your opponent indeed runs a serious manadenial/Tempo plan, whichi s a recurring topic as unlike in ANT, the pretty general opener or fetching a Basic, can bite your ass in TES (also depending on how you use your Wishes and playlines to cast discard off one land, and Rituals off a second Black Source).

No need to thank, pal. Killing a Delver and delaying a clock sounds fine on paper, but this matchup is primary a race against their Discard/manadenial rather than their creatures. Decay vs. Wasteland isn't a hot plan anyways on top of more 2cc cards to flip to Ad Nauseam

[PartyMonster]

I was watching back some of the feature matches. Bryant's match against Todd Anderson is absolutely insane.


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[Bryant Cook]

Hey guys!

I'm setting up some social media pages for an upcoming TES website I'm building, check out these pages:

https://twitter.com/mtgtheepicstorm
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1060019600691940/

[Mastikor]

This is great - I allready applied for the FB group (Samo) :)

[grmpytopdecker]

Aw, it's on Facebook where I don't have an account :(


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[Togores]

Already inside :D

But... Why should FB be better tan this forum?

[Lemnear]

Already inside :D

But... Why should FB be better tan this forum?

Facebook, Twitter and the webpage are a Multimedia offense to get the archetype out of this thread as the decks only source of deck related content, making stuff like the primer & development less depending on TheSource. The upcoming Website is likely structured like a digital primer and will not feature options for direct feedback, so the Facebook page is serving for that and otherwise deck-related discussion with much quicker feedback than it is possible in the Forum thanks to notifications (like via FB App).

I'm looking forward using the Facebook group for setting up meetings during GP Lille :)

[halfie44]

Hey guys!

I'm setting up some social media pages for an upcoming TES website I'm building, check out these pages:

https://twitter.com/mtgtheepicstorm
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1060019600691940/

Just applied for the group (D Calf), will be good to organise meetings at GP Lille

[Lemnear]

I think you guys are really under selling island. First turn Cantrip into second turn Sea or Volcanic into the appropriate ritual and then Lion's Eye Diamond often suffices, I rarely ever have trouble with my mana as red isn't needed until the combo turn. Here's the thing about the red mana, sometimes it's not needed until post-Ad Nauseam.


The EPIC Storm
Decklist as of 1/27/2015

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp


I wonder, if running two Volcanics makes sense anymore if you run basics, as the second copy of the UR Dual was included to maintain a fetchable red source in case you naturally or intentionally open a game with Volcanic and it gets destroyed by Wasteland. If the Volcanic is indeed just fetched/played the turn you want to go off, there is not much to gain from a second copy anymore as you'll open rather with Basics than with a Dual in the face of Wasteland and against non-Wasteland, you sure prefer an increased color-selection. So I suggest switching the manabase back to the stable 8 Fetch/5 Lands configuration with the following Layout which will also fight iffy land configurations in your opener:


suggested manabase

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp


Agree with my analysis?

[Bryant Cook]

The problem I see with this is you can't always hold the Volcanic if it's your only land in your opening hand in a thirteen land deck. You gain very little by having an additional fetchland over a second searchable red source in a Wasteland format. Although, that slot could be Bayou in order to save a sideboard slot, I still would want a second searchable red source.

[Izor]

What are your opinions on running 1 Volc + 1 Badlands instead of 2 Volc? ANT has been doing that for quite a while and it works. You still have a second R source to fetch up, but you keep the amount of lands you can naturally draw and that don't produce B to a minimum.

I just think that the TES manabase is getting closer and closer to ANT's mana base at this point. ANT has more cantrips than TES, yet they don't miss the second UR land and can run a RB land instead.

[wonderPreaux]

What are your opinions on running 1 Volc + 1 Badlands instead of 2 Volc? ANT has been doing that for quite a while and it works. You still have a second R source to fetch up, but you keep the amount of lands you can naturally draw and that don't produce B to a minimum.

I just think that the TES manabase is getting closer and closer to ANT's mana base at this point. ANT has more cantrips than TES, yet they don't miss the second UR land and can run a RB land instead.

ANT has more lands in general, though. You shouldn't read too much into the fact that ANT might have as many as 2 non-blue producing lands when their builds have as many blue-producers as we have total lands.

[Final Fortune]

What are your opinions on running 1 Volc + 1 Badlands instead of 2 Volc? ANT has been doing that for quite a while and it works. You still have a second R source to fetch up, but you keep the amount of lands you can naturally draw and that don't produce B to a minimum.

I just think that the TES manabase is getting closer and closer to ANT's mana base at this point. ANT has more cantrips than TES, yet they don't miss the second UR land and can run a RB land instead.

I've used 8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 1 Volc, 1 Bad, 1 Island with a SB Tropical Island for a long while now and have been fairly happy with it, ideally going Island, cantrip. Badlands, discard and then going off towards T3, but the problem is that it can be a bit slow in a meta where you have to race hate bears pretty regularly. I kind of self justifed that by having Thoughtseize instead of Duress and a single land to fetch and enable Massacre via Burning Wish tho', think you can kind of leave it up to play style as to whether or not you prefer lands that let you dig over disrupt and go off because you fetch strictly for blue except for Badlands.

Even in a Wasteland meta, I'm not sure how much 8 fetch, 2 sea, 1 volc, 1 island, 1 swamp and 1 sb bayou matters that much as far as having only 1 wastable red source, naturally drawing Volc doesn't happen that often and a lot of the time I find Rite of Flame goes right on Chrome Mox any way.

[Lemnear]

What are your opinions on running 1 Volc + 1 Badlands instead of 2 Volc? ANT has been doing that for quite a while and it works. You still have a second R source to fetch up, but you keep the amount of lands you can naturally draw and that don't produce B to a minimum.

I just think that the TES manabase is getting closer and closer to ANT's mana base at this point. ANT has more cantrips than TES, yet they don't miss the second UR land and can run a RB land instead.

ANT only runs Badlands if their board is heavy on red and a Bayou if it is heavy on green. Badlands in TES is a recurring topic, but it's a card which creates awkwards land configurations for TES with only 13 lands as Island+Badlands or Swamp+Badlands or Tropical+Badlands never provide the following two core requirements at the same time:

1) produce red, blue and black mana off two lands
2) provide red and black mana during the combo turn off two lands

The Island is also a card which does not fulfills the said requirements and that was the reason I was on the fence about that, in case you wonder at this point.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi boys!,
the other day I played a brief torunament with TES, well I took it easy, and was able to handle a long game vs miracles which made me very happy!
I've looked at the last pages and was impressed the direction the deck is taking... well I feel lucky that I'm taking my own direction... of course sometimes I ask for opinion as vs miracles - solved! now I think my 75 are just perfect, maybe I put in a Bribery, but I'm very happy!

What I don't understand is the following:
the exact meta that now exists is the exact meta that existed before T.Cruise, therefore why the deck is changing so much (2 basics 2 C.Mox)? to handle Tempo? the 'old' deck with gemstones was already prepared for these archetypes...

the list is now more and more similar to the Timo Schuneman list..., playing so many fetches why you do not include any number of C.Ritual?

@Final Fortune:
long time I don't hear from you! nice to have your opinion again!
which list are you currently running?
which is your opinion from the last changes - better say - last Bryant changes?

A note:
my next testing card will be Autumn's Veil! I will just replace the xantids for this and see how much the RUG and Miracles match ups are improved as I really never been scared of Sneak variants... for those inteerested I'll let you know, I see the card as a silence that can be played by green.

[Lemnear]

Hi boys!,
the other day I played a brief torunament with TES, well I took it easy, and was able to handle a long game vs miracles which made me very happy!
I've looked at the last pages and was impressed the direction the deck is taking... well I feel lucky that I'm taking my own direction... of course sometimes I ask for opinion as vs miracles - solved! now I think my 75 are just perfect, maybe I put in a Bribery, but I'm very happy!

What I don't understand is the following:
the exact meta that now exists is the exact meta that existed before T.Cruise, therefore why the deck is changing so much (2 basics 2 C.Mox)? to handle Tempo? the 'old' deck with gemstones was already prepared for these archetypes...

the list is now more and more similar to the Timo Schuneman list..., playing so many fetches why you do not include any number of C.Ritual?

@Final Fortune:
long time I don't hear from you! nice to have your opinion again!
which list are you currently running?
which is your opinion from the last changes - better say - last Bryant changes?

A note:
my next testing card will be Autumn's Veil! I will just replace the xantids for this and see how much the RUG and Miracles match ups are improved as I really never been scared of Sneak variants... for those inteerested I'll let you know, I see the card as a silence that can be played by green.

You ask why the deck doesn't jump back to it's Summer 2013 configuration after Treasure Cruise is gone? Because Gemstone was a logic conclusion of running Silences and Silences were bad since Fall/Winter 2013 and this resulted into a more or less fast cutting of Rainbow lands and their replacement of a Dual/Fetch manabase. The fall of Gemstone has nothing to do with Cruise or the metagame shifts this year, but with the rise of hate-angle-duality in Fall 2013, the Position of the EtW Route currently and the rise of Miracles. We also added a land, changed/cutted SB Engines etc. on top of that.

Claiming the meta just reverted back to the date we played Silences and Rainbows is frustratingly false. The fact that tempo and Wasteland is returning to the metagame and the fact that we cutted down colors to UBrg let Bryant Ponder about the option to include Basics and play the ANT-way against those decks just with the option for EtW in exchange of running weaker Rituals. Which brings me to Timo's TNT. We would run Cabal Rituals if we a) would want to rely on the graveyard and b) would not run fundamental playlines which require several red mana. It makes me kinda sad having to point that out time and time again. Would WotC print useful Black/Blue SB engines for us, we could run Cabal Rituals and call it a day, but that's not the case. Fetches replaced Gemstones for improved card- & manaselection and not to durdle with Cabal Rituals. Making TC and Cabals considerable was nothing more than a sideeffect.

[Pelikanudo]

Claiming the meta just reverted back to the date we played Silences and Rainbows is frustratingly false. .

not that false - see these 4 examples:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14608&iddeck=107984
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14684&iddeck=108605
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14351&iddeck=105869
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14185&iddeck=104454

from july 2014 until september 2014
these 4 archetypes do not play silences and still run gemstones.
I meant playing gemstones and duress - therapys disruption package, not silence.
there was a timeframe in which gemstones and duress - therapies were played - I claim to revert to this period

[Lemnear]

not that false - see these 4 examples:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14608&iddeck=107984
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14684&iddeck=108605
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14351&iddeck=105869
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14185&iddeck=104454

from july 2014 until september 2014
these 4 archetypes do not play silences and still run gemstones.
I meant playing gemstones and duress - therapys disruption package, not silence.
there was a timeframe in which gemstones and duress - therapies were played - I claim to revert to this period

Is one of the examples your own here? Just curious because of Bribery + DimRet. ;)

Get me right: even at the time of those tournaments I was already convinced Gemstones (and argued here for that) are not required but lackluster in longer games which are inevitable postboard against control and Aggro-control, this however does not imply that the deck is unable to take down a tournament running Gold-Lands (and possibly Silence). I just want to Highlight that we found ways to increase the mana-/cardselection without hurting the decks ability to go off T1/2 while also increasing the long-term stability and I see no reason to revert the lists back to a earlier Stadium of development.

P.S. The following two weeks I want to make another test-gauntlet with Basics to control if my first was correct or if I drew a wrong conclusion due to matchups and playstyle. Always question yourself is the Motto.

[Pelikanudo]

Is one of the examples your own here? Just curious because of Bribery + DimRet. ;)

well yes was one example... ;)

Get me right: even at the time of those tournaments I was already convinced Gemstones (and argued here for that) are not required but lackluster in longer games which are inevitable postboard against control


This is something we talked about - a fetch manabase - the unique one I agree was 13 lands among them 8 fetch 2 Sea 2 V.island plus (1 bayou or 3rd Sea) to get the goal of obtaining consistency in the late - mid game against control decks withouth loosing mana combinations (agro control I'll discuss later), but what happens to me in testing - I made a lot and finally was conviced in a tournament in a miracles match up, I definately concluded that Gemstones are good and not worse than more fetches - I could say it was not noticeable as I always have in mind the case if it would be a fetch - at least the long games I battle vs miracles usually don't go through investing mana until neccessary - I play 4 decays 3 xantid (next times Autums veil will be tested) so I have absolutly covered the puzzle. the unique things I usually do is duress and I.tutor for more decays or duress.

and Aggro-control,

all I can say is that when playing TNT and TES I absolutly play different match ups. maybe now the TES approach is trying to face the agro match up as ANT - TNT style which usually goes through stabilizing and win - with TES I absolulty don't play this kind of game - in here I prefer investing a gemstone for duress or for a ponder looking for a LED to win on next turn or more mana duresses etc.. - the kind of plays are quite different - you just are ok with 1 or 2 lands until 'suddently' win - I usually don't go through 3 ( Remember vs last time team america - the last game was like ponder - wasteland - duress - brainstorm win with 1 land) maybe I'm more confortable with a basic island cantriping until I can go off - but it is ok for me the TES approach - I even I like it more ;)

this however does not imply that the deck is unable to take down a tournament running Gold-Lands (and possibly Silence). I just want to Highlight that we found ways to increase the mana-/cardselection without hurting the decks ability to go off T1/2 while also increasing the long-term stability and I see no reason to revert the lists back to a earlier Stadium of development.

I absoltly prefer now playing 4 therapys 3 duress - I even will play 4 therapys if I someday take out EtW from main - sincerely there was a time that seemed that if you were not playing silences you either were not playing TES... but I absolutly wanted that change. - well you said possibly - related to arguing this - as said I was agree with that mentioned 13 manabase - but preferred 12 with gemstones and 1 bayou/tropical in side finally - I really didn't find neccessary that change. possibly and as example now vs RUG I'll side 1 bayou 2 autums veil as a Starting testing

P.S. The following two weeks I want to make another test-gauntlet with Basics to control if my first was correct or if I drew a wrong conclusion due to matchups and playstyle. Always question yourself is the Motto.ou

sorry don't understand this...

playstyle... I find TES as the unique deck that needs a Unique playstyle - the playstyle is just the correct one, the one that fits the statistics and does the correct plays in the correct moments evaluating in each moment the cards the opponent already drew and the ones are going to draw and the cards you already drew and the one ones you will draw - I love so much this deck... I know you too ;)




well apart,

Intro:
I shared with you and others some time ago my feeling about the Timo list, an incredible feeling invaded my heart when played the deck after little tunning in a tournament it was really getting very close to a chess game - it just was amazing and also was demonstrated in a second tournament piloted by a friend which recognized he could have won the GP Paris with it finally made day 2 and 1nn position (he recognized also several misplays) - the tournament I played I made a 6-1 winning all flavours of blue decks and loosing uniquely with the boy that won in the finals - yes I won that tournament 10-1 was the core- just was incredible - the feeling that if you play properly the deck nobody can win you - this same feeling happened to me when playing DD and now after switching to EtW main and full discard package with TES.

the problem you argue agains TNT are 2 I believe:
a) the slow behaviour it takes agains hatebears as is just as slower as ANT and I need to agree
b) the inability to generate 2 red mana for b.w > EtW route and possible for PiF chaining , I can agree with the b.w. > EtW route as you even do not play EtW main, but the build plays 8 fetch 1 volcanic 1 badlands 4 petal 4 LED total 18 red sources therefore the for at least PiF chains are ok - note didn't include the I.t. > EtW route.

so finishing my analysis I don't think I will take out gemstones from TES never and neither Chrome moxen and likely D.R neither. I really think the deck is more compressed that way and also think the deck needs to be that way as this is its personality.
On the other hand I understand we need to adapt the deck to just win tournaments and this is what I've been tinkering about... just to build a good storm deck...
well, what I love from TNT is the puzzle box that the 3 B.Wishes offer and the stable mana base it has -enough stuff to start to win torunaments with it so a theoric build can be:

4 Cabal Ritual - could be RoF but this is just more powerfull and makes possible also the I.T. > EtW routes
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 EtW

4 Scalding Tarn EDIT : depeding if playing bayou I'd play Bloodstined mire instead
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 tropical island - this could be bayou . initially was the C.Mox which for that tournament was the 2nd island still A.Decay didn't exist

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 void snare
SB: 1 Grim Tutor
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 A. Decay - I would play 4
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Ill-gotten Gains - this was used for speed for 2nd and 3rd game not sure if still has sense
SB: 1 PiF - in TNT I played this in base so the move to the side should be ok but I'm skeptical if we comply with the mana requirements...
SB: 3 Xantid
1 massacre
I remember I played 1 timespiral - I understand its non inclusion...
TNT build for reference:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493&iddeck=76528

well
- finally we play 4th b.w. and no PiF Tendrils in base - the problem I see is that you can not do B.W. > Grim tutor > PiF and win with that route but you can do still B.W. > Grim tutor to A.N.
- with this base you assume that A.N will not win in the same turn most of the times, but you equally win once A.N is resolved.
- you still have the same numbers of burning wishes than in TES not sure if they can be redundant in this build - but for sure you have now a complete toolbox. to handle maverick and taxes as example
- not sure how good the EtW will be but seems that we still have that fast path to victory as with Infernal you won't have mana problem
- combinations of engines for 2nd and 3rd games are genial as you can go back the PiF - Tendrils route and are all open.

Sacred spare time...

[Izor]

I have always regarded TNT as a variant of ANT which eschews Preordain and the main Grim Tutor (which I never really liked in ANT anyway) for 3 Burning Wishes in order to gain access to the toolbox pre- and postboard as well as a quick way to win with EtW out of the sideboard when you don't find an Infernal early.

Now, by taking out the Past-Tendrils package and adding the md EtW and the 4th Wish, doesn't TNT just become a worse version of TES? I probably shouldn't say worse, because its late game is probably improved due to Cabal Rits and the extra Lands over Moxen... But your win conditions/routes to victory are now identical to those in TES, but with:
- less speed due to Cabal Rit > Rite of Flame
- worse mana due to the absence of Rite of Flame (with EtW being a primary win con, which very often requires RR during yur combo turn)
- and most importantly, with a significantly weakened Ad Nauseam (which I assume to be your primary gameplan, like in TES) due to the absence of Moxen and CC2 Rituals over more CC1 Rituals.

The way I look at it, you're not adding Wish to an ANT deck any more (the advantages of which are obvious), but instead you're adding Lands and Cabal Ritual to a TES deck, and I honestly don't think that I'd weaken pretty much all of my primary game plans only to improve my late game a little. Your EtW route gets worse because you're slower (and EtW gets worse every turn you have to wait) and because you may not hit two Red mana (Turn 1 Rite->Rite->LED->Wish for EtW is a thing in TES, but impossible with your TNT list); and your Ad Nauseam gets worse for reasons stated above. So what am I missing? What makes that deck good?

[Lemnear]

This is something we talked about - a fetch manabase - the unique one I agree was 13 lands among them 8 fetch 2 Sea 2 V.island plus (1 bayou or 3rd Sea) to get the goal of obtaining consistency in the late - mid game against control decks withouth loosing mana combinations (agro control I'll discuss later), but what happens to me in testing - I made a lot and finally was conviced in a tournament in a miracles match up, I definately concluded that Gemstones are good and not worse than more fetches - I could say it was not noticeable as I always have in mind the case if it would be a fetch - at least the long games I battle vs miracles usually don't go through investing mana until neccessary - I play 4 decays 3 xantid (next times Autums veil will be tested) so I have absolutly covered the puzzle. the unique things I usually do is duress and I.tutor for more decays or duress.

The difference is twofold. First you gain increased cardselection for your early cantrips, especially if you find a Fetch in your Ponder/Brainstorm instead of a Gemstone. That is one hell of a difference. Second, if you infernal for additional cooies of Decays or the like (which I do too) you don't want to do this off Gemstones, because by turn three you have to decide how to spend your third mining counter. The serious problem occurs if your Second land gets wasted and your opponent simply can wait for you also losing your Gemstone Mine. This is not a position to be in during longer games and especially against tempo.


all I can say is that when playing TNT and TES I absolutly play different match ups. maybe now the TES approach is trying to face the agro match up as ANT - TNT style which usually goes through stabilizing and win - with TES I absolulty don't play this kind of game - in here I prefer investing a gemstone for duress or for a ponder looking for a LED to win on next turn or more mana duresses etc.. - the kind of plays are quite different - you just are ok with 1 or 2 lands until 'suddently' win - I usually don't go through 3 ( Remember vs last time team america - the last game was like ponder - wasteland - duress - brainstorm win with 1 land) maybe I'm more confortable with a basic island cantriping until I can go off - but it is ok for me the TES approach - I even I like it more ;)

There is NO aggro matchup left in Legacy top decks afaik and this is the primary reason for all the decks changes over the last years, going away from the pure Belcher approach aggro decks fall victim, planning for longer games against blue and various angles of hate. TNTs Wishes had a pure toolbox use to handle hatebears and problematic permanents as well as delivering additional flips for Ad Nauseam which grant access to Tendrils for ONE red mana. This is different to TES which needs AT LEAST TWO red mana for PIF loops and EtW bursts off Wish.

You are not "ok with 1 or 2 lands" against Wasteland/Daze/Pierce/Thalia/etc. This isn't 2011/2012 where we blew out Zoo with City of Brass + Chrome Mox as our manabase. Thats what all the fus is about.


sorry don't understand this...

playstyle... I find TES as the unique deck that needs a Unique playstyle - the playstyle is just the correct one, the one that fits the statistics and does the correct plays in the correct moments evaluating in each moment the cards the opponent already drew and the ones are going to draw and the cards you already drew and the one ones you will draw - I love so much this deck... I know you too ;)

With "playstyle" I mean that I have to question my own aggressive playstyle causing issues with the Basics.

[Spam]

Hi to all, I've been following this thread for a very long time, but never wrote anything do to a lack of legacy tournaments in my local area and my poor english. Since something have finally started to move around here (in terms of legacy) and language can be improved only by practice, I decided to post something.
Fun fact, I've originally planned to make a report about a tournament where I reached top 8 with T.E.S. but it was so boring, do to the lack knowledge I have with the deck, that I didn't bother to finish it. I can say that most of the losts were do to my mistakes, mainly because I miss played cards like Duress or Burning Wish, but this doesn't mean I can't share the good parts and thoughts!
So:
-Wining at 6 life with Ad Nauseam is awesome and not that hard.
-Throwing goblins at people is always my solution to any problem.
-I was arguing with someone about T.E.S. and ANT. He said something about more consistency or some stuff like that, I throwed goblins at him.
- I've never wished for an Infernal tutor, ever. But having 7 of them is better (on paper) that only 4, I guess.
-At first I was sceptical about basic lands, but I faced so many Wastelands that I was so glad to have them in my core.
-I do have the tendency of drawing every single crome mox in my deck all the time, so maybe two are better for me... I'll try with the 4 Infernal build next; However, they make Ad Nauseam so good.
-Past in flames is very odd for me; I find myself never wanting to wish for it, usually there are better targets all the times, but this is certainly do to my lack of experience.
In the end I would say that this deck is extremely strong and fun to play, and I hope to bring some interesting thoughts in the future. sorry for this lame presentation, but I had to introduce myself somehow

[Lemnear]

-Throwing goblins at people is always my solution to any problem.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/8ed7a866693a7e8d8dac3084e138ea46/tumblr_mxc6n7UA6f1s7j45no1_500.jpg

[Lemnear]

The key to success with Basics:

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/gandalf_zpsjs8yy4jn.jpg

[Blitzkreuz]

Hey guys, I need your help with some matchhups, especially against black / sth discard decks. Do I just have to aggressive mulligan to beat those decks? Or do I use pif? Regarding pif I never used it since I played the deck and am unsure when to side it in or if I should just wish for it or what I do with it in general. Can u enlighten me? :-D

I'm playing bryants md - empty + infernal. My sb is pretty open, I haven't settled on all cards, so if u can give me general advice or specific good cards against the bug decks, that would be great :-)

[Lemnear]

Hey guys, I need your help with some matchhups, especially against black / sth discard decks. Do I just have to aggressive mulligan to beat those decks? Or do I use pif? Regarding pif I never used it since I played the deck and am unsure when to side it in or if I should just wish for it or what I do with it in general. Can u enlighten me? :-D

I'm playing bryants md - empty + infernal. My sb is pretty open, I haven't settled on all cards, so if u can give me general advice or specific good cards against the bug decks, that would be great :-)

"aggressive mulligan" is a synonym for being greedy and hoping to find a nutty 6. Don't do that. Against discard, you drop your mana asap and play off the top of your decks with cantrips into Ad Nauseam. I personal have cornercases in which I indeed board PIF, but this one is none. You Wish for it if the situation favors it and you don't need to sideboard for Team America or whatever you are talking about here at all.

I'm not going to write a manual for PIF once more. All you need to know is in the OP, articles or burried in the last year of posts.

[Bryant Cook]

Current list is updated in the OP.

[Blitzkreuz]

"aggressive mulligan" is a synonym for being greedy and hoping to find a nutty 6. Don't do that. Against discard, you drop your mana asap and play off the top of your decks with cantrips into Ad Nauseam. I personal have cornercases in which I indeed board PIF, but this one is none. You Wish for it if the situation favors it and you don't need to sideboard for Team America or whatever you are talking about here at all.

I'm not going to write a manual for PIF once more. All you need to know is in the OP, articles or burried in the last year of posts.

Thx for the fast reply, sadly that doesn't help me much, but I think it just comes down to practice then.

It's not that I dont know how to use PiF, just that I never felt like I had the cards to win with it. Therefore the sample cards in the OP dont help much. But thx anyway

[seilaquem]

Thx for the fast reply, sadly that doesn't help me much, but I think it just comes down to practice then.

It's not that I dont know how to use PiF, just that I never felt like I had the cards to win with it. Therefore the sample cards in the OP dont help much. But thx anyway

guess what he meant was: instead of playing the normal game, relying on casting artifact mana sources on "combo turn", you drop them ASAP, so you can just cantrip (bs, ponder, gitaxian probe) into ad nauseam, and just win from there. also, you could draw burning wish, and just wish for past in flames, w/ enough ritual effects on the graveyard.

hope i could clarify your doubts

[Blitzkreuz]

guess what he meant was: instead of playing the normal game, relying on casting artifact mana sources on "combo turn", you drop them ASAP, so you can just cantrip (bs, ponder, gitaxian probe) into ad nauseam, and just win from there. also, you could draw burning wish, and just wish for past in flames, w/ enough ritual effects on the graveyard.

hope i could clarify your doubts

The first part was clear, that isn't hard to understand, but still thanks for trying to explain it :) The second part with PiF wasnt that clear for me, so double thx for explaining it :D

[Togores]

Today I made a 3-1 at locals with more or less stock list with basics.
2-1 bug delver
0-2 goldigger
2-0 patriot
2-1 rgbw jund+gw

Sided this:
2 tendrills
1 empty
1 pif
1 void snare
1 infernal
1 bayou
3 xantid
3 decay
2 pyroclasm

Played the extra tendrills because lately in my zone people tend to play cards like slaughter games. And so I can change empty for tendrills and still win. Also is good vs miracles and golddigger.
Was a metacall but not the worst. Because I played vs so a 4 color deck and duressed him and hit it the turn before It came to play.
Also letely I dont play vs miracles. Have played one time last weeks. Surgicals and may be chain of vapour could have done better job.
Pyroclasm where nice. Not having a wishable 0 mana removal in side worries me. But have still never wish for it. Also wished 2 times for pif, 0 for void snare, 1 for empty, 1 for infernal.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm going to test a greenless build over the next week as Miracles has died out according to some results. There also hasn't been any need for Massacre if you look at the results, if you really want to run Massacre you could run it over Pyroclasm in the sideboard below:

3 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

[Togores]

Other event with tes.
4-1
2-0 white stax
G1 y miss play with bs and cost almost the game but my opp is at 14 with a tabernacle and a chalice on 2. The turn before i die i just go. Ponder. Petals. Infernal he counters with chalice. Rituals duress wish. He says ok and forgets his chalice LOL and tendrills him.
G2 he mulls t5 gg

2-0 gwb zenith
G1 turn 2 naseam
G2 turn t3 pyroclasm a tegg, thalia, and canonist. T4 nauseam gg.

2-1 infect.
G1 I have t1 nauseam but could not get rid of his fow. Make 14 goblins. And he just has agent. He has berserk and topdecks invigirate
G2 i combo t2.
G3 long came i need a discard fir fluster. End up drawing it and win playing around piracy charm when im dead on board next turn.

1-2 goldigger(same guy as yesterday)
G1 my hand is nuts but in 9 turn i dont draw a 2nd ims and loose.
G2 14 goblins make the job.
G3 he draws his only white leyline and my 3 discards and so never get there.

2-0 elfs
G1 t2 combo
G2 t2 pyriclasm his 4 elfs. He only has ruric a d bayou in hand. Next turn i go of.

I played a weird sb.
2 surgical
2 decay
2 pyroclasm
1 bayou
1 infernal
1 pif
1 empty
1 void snare
1 tendrills
1 massacre

Put massacre back in because at the event where some taxes players.
Put in surgical because there where some usual stormers/reanimators.
Cutted one decay because there where 0 miracles players
Cutted on xantid because i have + 2 reanimatir cards and lately no one plays sneak and show.





@Bryant
Like new sb but i dont like the 2 pithing. Would play + clasm +1 massacre or even a 3rd clasm to sb 2 in let one sb.

Also, you changed your mana base to afford more red cards?

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant
Like new sb but i dont like the 2 pithing. Would play + clasm +1 massacre or even a 3rd clasm to sb 2 in let one sb.

Also, you changed your mana base to afford more red cards?

Without Needle or Swarm, Sensei's Divining Top becomes very good against you. Without Decay, shutting down Sensei's Diving Top becomes even more important.

[Final Fortune]

Hi boys!,
the other day I played a brief torunament with TES, well I took it easy, and was able to handle a long game vs miracles which made me very happy!
I've looked at the last pages and was impressed the direction the deck is taking... well I feel lucky that I'm taking my own direction... of course sometimes I ask for opinion as vs miracles - solved! now I think my 75 are just perfect, maybe I put in a Bribery, but I'm very happy!

What I don't understand is the following:
the exact meta that now exists is the exact meta that existed before T.Cruise, therefore why the deck is changing so much (2 basics 2 C.Mox)? to handle Tempo? the 'old' deck with gemstones was already prepared for these archetypes...

the list is now more and more similar to the Timo Schuneman list..., playing so many fetches why you do not include any number of C.Ritual?

@Final Fortune:
long time I don't hear from you! nice to have your opinion again!
which list are you currently running?
which is your opinion from the last changes - better say - last Bryant changes?

A note:
my next testing card will be Autumn's Veil! I will just replace the xantids for this and see how much the RUG and Miracles match ups are improved as I really never been scared of Sneak variants... for those inteerested I'll let you know, I see the card as a silence that can be played by green.

I play more or less the same list as every one else, I switch between 8 blue fetchlands, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 badland, 1 island and SB tropical and 8 fetch, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 island, 1 swamp, SB bayou and I'm not certain which manabase is better, the first is more stable but the second is faster fwiw so I think it depends on how aggressively you're trying to win on T2.

Other than that, I still run Thoughtseize over Duress because of Clique/Mage and keep the 4th Infernal Tutor in the SB and the 3rd Chrome Mox in the MD, mainly because I cut Diminishing Returns and Bribery awhile ago and don't like to be dead to Goblins in the middle game or have to wait for Past in Flames in the late game.

Other than that, still have a SB Thoughtseize and 1 Pyroblast to be able to wish for disruption or draw removal for Mage off Nauseam, also messing around with running a 3 Underground, 2 Volcanic manabase and SBing both of the basics and bayou in order to have a more flexible manabase pre and then solid, or biggger manabase post as I don't really go for stuff like graveyard hate and just accept Reanimator is a bad match up.

Don't really think Gemstone Mine is the way to go unless you're playing Silence or Autumn's Veil, I really prefer being able to build a manabase while not losing that much speed overall. I mean, it's more important that our opponent feels threatened by a T2 win than it is to actually have a T2 win because we want him to have to mulligan into counters/disruption and have the ability to last into the middle game regardless. I kind of feel like the deck is becoming a little slower than old TES and a lot faster than TPS if that makes any sense at all. And also card quality aside, Gemstone is such an obvious tell that you're playing combo - where if you Misty for an Underground they'll put you on BUG etc.

I always liked Autumn's Veil btw, I think like 4 Duress, 3 Veil and a MD Bayou with the Gemstone manabase would be pretty interesting if RUG ever retakes the meta.

As far as Island goes, even tho' it doesn't set up for the T2 win by having two lands that produce both B and R in and of itself, I think the logic is that you wouldn't fetch Island if you didn't have a cantrip in hand, and if you do dig 3 to 4 cards deeper the likelyhood is you'll hit the Petal/Mox for the missing B or R mana. I mean I played 8 blue fetchlands and Island for a really long time, and I never seemed to have serious problems going off on T2 so I'm kind of suspicious of Swamp to be honest because naturally drawing into T1 disruption, T2 win is kind of "pie in the sky" where Island is pragmatically saying we don't always start with perfect hands and need to start digging for the missing pieces.

Also at Lemnear, people didn't move to the fetchland manabase as soon as they moved to discard, that happened after they moved to discard and I think after I moved to all fetchlands because I remember being on 8 U fetch, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 badland, 1 island while other people were still using gemstones, after which I took a break from the game and missed the Treasure Cruise meta where it seems every body is playing a fetchland manabase now (altho' slightly different).

I think there's room to disagree on how to do things regarding the manabase, disruption and SB, I mean 8 fetch, island, badlands is incredibly good vs RUG, but maybe not as good vs some kind of UW deck with Wasteland and SB Meddling Mages etc. where you want to Thoughtseize to get rid of the hate bear and protect your mana vs a Wasteland. That's probably more relevant for like Death and Taxes or whatever, but the changes on a whole are kind of marginal and mostly suited to the meta or play style preference.

Any way that's my 10 cents, I flip flop between different mana bases and disruption suites so I don't think anything is really objectively better right now, altho I think SBing land is really underrated and too many people are just playing SB cards strictly for really bad match ups like Reanimator when they could be experimenting with more out of the box stuff like that.

Edit: Also with the basics I think Time Spiral is worth taking a look at as you can actually get like 3 land into play for a "3 mana" D7 and it's a win condition between Empty the Warrens being too slow, Past in Flames not having a large enough graveyard to win and Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam costing 1 more mana - it's my current pet card.

[atosecond]

Maybe there's something I am missing, but what's the correct play when your hand is:

Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual

And you have 1 Underground Sea in Play (using Bryant's 02/12/15 list).

It seems like you ought to be able to win (and you definitely could with an Ad Nauseam in the wishboard), you can go for a sublethal EtW, but that seems suboptimal.



Whenever I try to draw out of it, I frequently end up hitting non-relevant stuff (discard/additional burning wishes).

Drawing into a 2nd LED/Dark Ritual makes a PiF loop possible (Play Petal, LED x2; Crack petal for red; play Dark Rit(BBBR); play burning wish(BB) crack LEDs for RRRBBBBB, get PiF; cast Pif (RRBB); Flash back Dark Rit (RRBBBB) Flashback Burning Wish (RBBB); Get Tendrils and Tendrils for 18.) Dark Ritual = Tendrils for 20; Which is fine, but if you don't draw either of those or Infernal it can be quite awkward. 1 s/b Ad Nauseam gets around this though.

[Jesture]

Maybe there's something I am missing, but what's the correct play when your hand is:

Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual

And you have 1 Underground Sea in Play (using Bryant's 02/12/15 list).

It seems like you ought to be able to win (and you definitely could with an Ad Nauseam in the wishboard), you can go for a sublethal EtW, but that seems suboptimal.



Whenever I try to draw out of it, I frequently end up hitting non-relevant stuff (discard/additional burning wishes).

Not sure if you're looking at this correctly, but Ad Nauseum is an instant, so it can't be tutored with Burning Wish. If you had a maindeck Ad Nauseum and an Infernal Tutor, that line would be possible but it's still up to chance whether you can draw into a kill or not (land drop made and zero floating seems loose, you could always just sculpt a hand with Ad Nauseum and look to go off another turn.)

Play USea and cast Petal, Ritual, LED, Wish (crack LED for red), Empty the Warrens is 10 goblins. You're right, it's suboptimal in that it's worse than storming out and killing with a lethal tendrils on turn 1. But a lot of fair decks have trouble with 10 goblins on turn 1. Outside of various board sweeps (Zealous Persecution, Golgari Charm, Echoing Truth,) or hate permanents (Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm,) you're in a pretty good position to win within the next 2-3 turns.

[Lemnear]

...except that it's a 3 turn clock once your opponent Drops a DRS/SFM/Nettle sentinel and your plan goes down the drain by turn 3.

Trust me: 10 Goblins is not enough against Elves for example.

[atosecond]

Ad Nauseum is an instant

Yes, you're right of course. I don't know why I keep thinking Ad Nauseam is a sorcery.

I've played a couple of matches where the EtW just doesn't quite get there (usually due to lifegain on a batterskull or a lucky miracle'd terminus ,etc.)

It just seems like there ought to be a way to surefire win from that situation, but I can't seem to find it.

[Lemnear]

Yes, you're right of course. I don't know why I keep thinking Ad Nauseam is a sorcery.

I've played a couple of matches where the EtW just doesn't quite get there (usually due to lifegain on a batterskull or a lucky miracle'd terminus ,etc.)

It just seems like there ought to be a way to surefire win from that situation, but I can't seem to find it.

There is no guaranteed way to win from that situation (unless you have Bribery in the SB and play against something running Blightsteel Colossus/Emrakul/Griselbrand)

[Mindlash]

Drawing into a 2nd LED/Dark Ritual makes a PiF loop possible (Play Petal, LED x2; Crack petal for red; play Dark Rit(BBBR); play burning wish(BB) crack LEDs for RRRBBBBB, get PiF; cast Pif (RRBB); Flash back Dark Rit (RRBBBB) Flashback Burning Wish (RBBB); Get Tendrils and Tendrils for 18.) Dark Ritual = Tendrils for 20; Which is fine, but if you don't draw either of those or Infernal it can be quite awkward. 1 s/b Ad Nauseam gets around this though.

You can't draw into a PiF loop with this hand. Burning Wish exiles itself on use so you can't flashback it.

As Lemnear already said...10 Goblins are not enough in most cases and this seems not to be turn 1 or did we already take a mulligan twice?

Regards Chris

[atosecond]

You can't draw into a PiF loop with this hand. Burning Wish exiles itself on use so you can't flashback it.

As Lemnear already said...10 Goblins are not enough in most cases and this seems not to be turn 1 or did we already take a mulligan twice?

Regards Chris
Yeah, you are right, obviously. I should stop posting at 1 am. I was gold fishing hands and had 2 BW when I had this hand.

[Mindlash]

Yeah, you are right, obviously. I should stop posting at 1 am. I was gold fishing hands and had 2 BW when I had this hand.

Ok...I would take a mulligan probably. There is nothing reliable you can do with this hand i guess. It is the Anna Kournikova of T.E.S. hands...looks sweet...but doesn't win often ;)

[cdnza]

I play more or less the same list as every one else, I switch between 8 blue fetchlands, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 badland, 1 island and SB tropical and 8 fetch, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 island, 1 swamp, SB bayou and I'm not certain which manabase is better, the first is more stable but the second is faster fwiw so I think it depends on how aggressively you're trying to win on T2.

Would you mind posting your full list? I'm experimenting with different land configurations right now and would love to see what your deck looks like because I'm currently weighing up whether or not to buy a Badlands. With the second manabase, is casting Rite ever difficult?

[Lemnear]

Would you mind posting your full list? I'm experimenting with different land configurations right now and would love to see what your deck looks like because I'm currently weighing up whether or not to buy a Badlands. With the second manabase, is casting Rite ever difficult?

1) don't buy a Badlands. We covered the topic like a million times already. It does not fix any existing problems with colors.

2) No, casting RoF is not an issue if you play smart with the red spells and only fetch for your red Dual in the turn you plan to combo. If you need RB turn two off two IMS, don't fetch for Island. Pretty obvious.

[Togores]

I tested today the non green list.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
2 Pithing needle
2 Chain of vapore
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

2-0 esper omnitell with rector
G1 he mulls to 5 gg
G2 he keeps a bad hand and end loosing fast
I disnt saw any white g1 so i disint sided the surgicals
-1 empty
-2 ponder
-1 island
-1 mox
+2 chain
+3 pyro

2-1 gw zenith
My opp usualy plays elves. And he starts fetch savanah deathrite. So I think he plays elves spashing white and tries to confuse me. I go fetch usea petal. Infernal copy ritual because I have nauseam in hand so i can go off turn 2. He was on gw zenith. Wasteland my land and plays a tegg. I dont draw land in 5 turns. So im dead. In hinsight fetching the underground was a mistake. But putting him on another deck and his elvish start made me think weird.

G2 10 goblins t1
G3 therapy thalia, massacre canonist. Play around the mindcesor he obv telegraphed after passing turn 2 times after seeing my masacre with 3 lands and a sylvan library in hand.

-3 duress
+2 chain
+1 infernal

0-2 sneak and show
G1 he has a hand that does nothing. And im missing a discard to get rid of his force after therapying 2 ponder t1 when he didnt have the fow. My turn 2 end he brainstorms and on his turn 3 he plays land, petal, sneak petal and his last card is emrakul.
G2 his hand is. Flooded, petal, pierce, fow, show and tell, 2 griselbrands when i gutaxian him. I have no discard. But mana and combo. I brainstorm agresively to may be find discard of a petal or pyroblast. But its not good enought and no discard. He plays land go. I play infernal to get a led and shuffle. He plays land show and tell griselbrand. Do its over. Obv next card drew was pithing. Wich he forces. I try to go off but another fow ended the game.
-1 empty
-2 ponder
-1 mox
-1 island
+3 pyroblast
+2 pithing

2-1 reset hight tide
G1 Im on the play giraxian him see no fow and land 10 goblins
G2 he has a full grip of counters and beatmedown with one vendilion and a second after i retry to go off.
G3 its a lond long gane because his hand are 2 flusters 2 fows. So we play a long game. On one turn he has a venidlion and im at 5. I draw pyroblast and had infernal, nauseam, 2 dark rituals. 4 lands in play. And on field 3 leds 1 petal. I pyroblast his vendi and he lets resolve. Next turn i draw land and pass. As i know he only has 2 fluster because He already used one fow and i discarted the other. I draw land and pass. So at 5 i go eot nauseam he lets resolve. And i reveal led, burning, burning going to 1. On my turn burning on pif. Ritual he flusters, ritual he flusters again and now he has 5 lands and 2 cards in hand. Now i play another burning and crack red black off 2 leds he lets resolve and i grab tendrills and win. Having mana and infernal in grave for the pif.
-1 mox
-1 empty
-1 ponder
+3 pyro

1-2 jund
G1 I duress one of his thouseize, my hand has 2 tutors and he discards a ritual, i draw another and im one mana short of going off. He plays a goyf. And i draw burning, burning empty. And end up being able to cast nauseam at 5 lives and die.

G2 he keeps a loose hand of 5 lands ooze seize. And I have 2 tutors ritual led. So he discards led. I draw a mana source and win.

G3 plays a t2 goyf after a t1 inquisition on infernal. I rip nauseam. And on 20 lives without revealing empty and with a rof, a mox and a led used. And landrop made and no mana. I reveal a bunch of tutors, cantrips, and discard. And the only mana source is a lone petal of 25~ cards. So bad beats and loose.

So end result:
Missed xantid a lot. Would have used 3/5 rounds them.
Pyroblast was fine but 2 would be ok because sidding the card for the 3rd out was not always making me happy.
Pithing came late as always. But I think is just bad luck.
Chain of vapor was fine.
Missed may be play pyroclasm side have liked them lately a lot.
Basics where good. This time the island never came bad.
Decay would have never really good. Also because I didnt faced miracles. But there were 3 miracles decks. 2 of them just uw.

I do think the basics are the way to go. Liked them and just because if that i have lately liked tes more than ant because it lets u play better lobg games vs wasteland decks.

[Final Fortune]

1) don't buy a Badlands. We covered the topic like a million times already. It does not fix any existing problems with colors.

2) No, casting RoF is not an issue if you play smart with the red spells and only fetch for your red Dual in the turn you plan to combo. If you need RB turn two off two IMS, don't fetch for Island. Pretty obvious.

That's an over simplification, Badlands after Island sets up for a T3 win following cantrip and discard, the doesn't have to, nor does it often, kill on T2 vs aggro control. I think its a matter of play style more than anything else about whether you want to design your manabase to basically aim to goldfish.

[grmpytopdecker]

My local gaming store (Comic Connection in Oakville) is working very hard to build up a legacy scene. Now that you can play sanctioned Legacy (meaning getting planeswalker points for your performance) at Friday Night Magic, a small group of us are coming out every Friday night to play Legacy. We are usually getting at least 8 people, and hopefully word spreads that you can jam some Legacy with a bunch of non-judgemental players.

This week I was playing The Epic Storm and trying out the latest deck list from the creator of the deck, along with a sideboard that doesn't use any green cards in it.

In the first round I was matched against a Jund Loam deck. It's not a great match-up and I won in 2 pretty quick matches by creating 14 goblins on turn 3 in both games.

Round 2 I was up against Dave and his G/W Enchantress deck. I had never played against it before, but usually I feel pretty confident that I can beat any deck not playing blue, which means no countermagic. I lost game 1 when he managed to play Solitary Confinemente followed by Sterling Grove.

In games 2 and 3 I used Ad Nauseam to combo-kill him on turn 2 of both remaining games.

Then I played Edward and his Sneak and Show deck. He took game 1 on a turn 4 Emrakuhl, I won game 2 when I Jedi-mind tricked him into going under 10 life where a mini-Tendrils of Agony could kill him. In ganme 3 I couldn't draw enough discard spells to fight through all his permission spells.

It's a rough match-up, and if I don't assemble a wining hand by turn 4 I tend to lose to this deck.

I was 2-1 and thinking that I could win one more match and then actually get some store credit. For my last round I was up against a deck that I have had all sorts of trouble trying to figure out how to beat -- Miracles.

I stole game 1 when he didn't draw any permission spells (Tendrils kill on turn 3)...and then I spent the next two games miserably playing draw-go in the face of an active Counterbalance that made it impossible to manipulate my library or give me a way to force through a discard spell to get rid of the inevitable multiple permission spells he was holding. At least 3 times he used Brainstorm to set up the top of his deck so a counterbalance would stop what I was trying to do.

I was quite salty at the end of the match.

So. Frustrating.

As much as I like the power of storm decks, I am starting to get really frustrated playing them. It seems like there are two extremes -- either I kill the person on turn 2 or 3 or I lose. I am having an extremely hard time figuring out how to grind through all the permission and taxing effects I face every Friday. My friend tells me "just think how good you will be at playing against those decks at bigger tournaments" but all it does is make me understand how few turns I have to live in almost every single match.

I'd love to get some advice on how to deal with the sea of blue decks and Death-and-Taxes I have to face and some suggestions on how to edge out enough of an advantage to steal some wins. My meta currently looks like this:

* home brewed red-black deck, player is working towards legacy burn
* 3 Death-and-Taxes
* 2 Miracles
* Jund
* Cloudpost
* Punishing Loam
* Storm (me)
* Sneak and Show
* Enchantress
* LED Dredge

I have been extremely patient lately and not trying to combo off if the coast isn't clear, but I end so many games with 5+ cards in hand and nothing to do because I can't fight multiple hard counters.

[Lemnear]

That's an over simplification, Badlands after Island sets up for a T3 win following cantrip and discard, the doesn't have to, nor does it often, kill on T2 vs aggro control. I think its a matter of play style more than anything else about whether you want to design your manabase to basically aim to goldfish.

How should Badlands survive till your turn three or provide you with BR in any case if your Rituals and Business spells are not color-matched?

It's totally pointless to start with an Island because you want to play around Wasteland, but expose your combo-color IMS for a whole turn. If you plan to use a third IMS for your turn 3 kill, Swamp is a million times better than Badlands to drop turn two, but my Main problem with some of you guys perception of an average game is that the T1/2 Discard followed by T2/3 combo (aka 6+ mana available plus a business Spell) through potential mana-disruption is just a fringe case to happen and nothing you should take guaranteed building the Rest of your deck and especially your manabase.

[Lemnear]

As much as I like the power of storm decks, I am starting to get really frustrated playing them. It seems like there are two extremes -- either I kill the person on turn 2 or 3 or I lose.

I'd love to get some advice on how to deal with the sea of blue decks and Death-and-Taxes I have to face and some suggestions on how to edge out enough of an advantage to steal some wins. My meta currently looks like this:

* home brewed red-black deck, player is working towards legacy burn
* 3 Death-and-Taxes
* 2 Miracles
* Jund
* Cloudpost
* Punishing Loam
* Storm (me)
* Sneak and Show
* Enchantress
* LED Dredge

I have been extremely patient lately and not trying to combo off if the coast isn't clear, but I end so many games with 5+ cards in hand and nothing to do because I can't fight multiple hard counters.

Wouldn't call this a sea of blue deck, but lets start from the beginning. Overwhelming your opponent early is the decks fundamental strength but we know that going for the long run isn't easy and against an active Counterbalance you have absolutely no realistic chance, so if your hand is kinda slow, digging for Decays or discarding it has absolute priority (even over your own combo attempt if you had to work towards it for a turn or two). If you can keep Counterbalance off the table, the High density of "Air" in Miracles will help you Grinding them out and once you stick Xantid (even if only used to flashback Cabal Ritual) you can pick apart the remaining defense. The method of delaying your opponents gameplan and sticking a Xantid to Trump their additional counters coming from the Sideboard is recommended also for 12-Post and SneakShow. For whatever reason your metagame lacks the really tricky blue matchups like Deathblade which confronted you with several attack angles.

For D&T I'm always a bit surprised why the matchup is considered a real Nightmare. It's either going for the Belcher-Mode before Thalia/Canonist/SFM can harm you, or slowrollen the matchup with uncracked Fetchlands until you can sweep the board and win (Vial'd in hatebears in your turn aside). The biggest mistake I constantly see in this matchup is people exposing Duals just to dig for stuff that might help them winning by turn 3 ... Just to see thei plans foiled by hatebears+Wasteland

P.S.: My offer to tune-in during a stream is still up

[Asthereal]

P.S.: My offer to tune-in during a stream is still up
Wait, you stream live? On Twitch or so?
I want to check that out. My time zone, good combo player, yes please! :wink:

[Lemnear]

Wait, you stream live? On Twitch or so?
I want to check that out. My time zone, good combo player, yes please! :wink:

The opposite. Chris was/is streaming and I offered him to Skype in or the like to help him out improving his play. Actually it is a general offer if stream times work out and someone wants direct feedback. For more assistance, join the Storm Seminar during GP Lille *laugh*

[grmpytopdecker]

Wouldn't call this a sea of blue deck, but lets start from the beginning. Overwhelming your opponent early is the decks fundamental strength but we know that going for the long run isn't easy and against an active Counterbalance you have absolutely no realistic chance, so if your hand is kinda slow, digging for Decays or discarding it has absolute priority (even over your own combo attempt if you had to work towards it for a turn or two). If you can keep Counterbalance off the table, the High density of "Air" in Miracles will help you Grinding them out and once you stick Xantid (even if only used to flashback Cabal Ritual) you can pick apart the remaining defense. The method of delaying your opponents gameplan and sticking a Xantid to Trump their additional counters coming from the Sideboard is recommended also for 12-Post and SneakShow. For whatever reason your metagame lacks the really tricky blue matchups like Deathblade which confronted you with several attack angles.


As I was saying to Wonderpreux on Twitter earlier today, I used to be VERY aggressive and ran into counter magic all the time. So I decided to be patient and only go off when I was sure the coast was clear. That works pretty good against decks that are not running blue and are not Death and Taxes, but I find myself dying with 5 to 6 cards in hand instead of 2 like it used to happen. My win rate with this deck is terrible, probably around 40% and I am still having a hard time figuring out what it is I don't know or understand that is causing the problem. Maybe I am just a shitty Magic player and won't ever get good enough to even win FNM at my local store, never mind attempting to play in larger events.

I tried out the non-green version of the deck (meaning no green cards in the sideboard) and in 4 matches was only able to get rid of one permanent in play via a sideboard card. I probably made bad choices with my Pithing Needle (chose Griselbrand with two Pyroblasts in hand, lost the next turn to Sneak Attack + Emrakuhl). Also lost to a Pithing Needle set to SDT against a Miracles player who calmly played a Counterbalance the next turn.

Sideboard was:

2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
Tendrils of Agony
Void Snare
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
Empty The Warrens
Past In Flames
2 Pyroclasm
Massacre

(maindeck is Bryant's latest list)

Wonderpreux has suggested the use of Engineered Explosives and no more Pyroblasts. I have the cards to try that out



For D&T I'm always a bit surprised why the matchup is considered a real Nightmare. It's either going for the Belcher-Mode before Thalia/Canonist/SFM can harm you, or slowrollen the matchup with uncracked Fetchlands until you can sweep the board and win (Vial'd in hatebears in your turn aside). The biggest mistake I constantly see in this matchup is people exposing Duals just to dig for stuff that might help them winning by turn 3 ... Just to see thei plans foiled by hatebears+Wasteland


I've gotten REALLY good at playing around Wasteland but it seems they always land a Thalia and/or Canonist and then I am never able to dig out of the hole. Plus they know I am playing Storm and they are extremely careful to not play any plains and use Aether Vial to build up their boards. I remember getting ground down by a D+T opponent who never played a Plains. Just Karakas for white mana and Aether Vials.



P.S.: My offer to tune-in during a stream is still up


My streaming is very infrequent and the time zone difference between us makes it hard to co-ordinate. If I do another Sunday morning set on Cockatrice I will let you know. You very generous offer is appreciated.

[wonderPreaux]

Wonderpreux has suggested the use of Engineered Explosives and no more Pyroblasts. I have the cards to try that out

Whoa there, I run EE and Pyroblast. Let's not get things twisted. But yeah, I think if you're playing 3 colors you should probably be playing EE.

Currently, this is how I run it:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Void Snare

[grmpytopdecker]

Whoa there, I run EE and Pyroblast. Let's not get things twisted. But yeah, I think if you're playing 3 colors you should probably be playing EE.

Currently, this is how I run it:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Void Snare

I guess I misread what you said on Twitter, thanks for correcting me.

[wonderPreaux]

I guess I misread what you said on Twitter, thanks for correcting me.

Actually, since I'm here, I'm gonna just do a write-up on my thoughts on the 3-color list right now, since it is picking up some momentum:

For people considering the 3-color list, it's important to understand what's better and what's worse, because it is a mix of both. ATM, I think the gains exceed the negatives and that is what makes the list worthwhile, and failing to understand either side of it is going to leave you with a poor understanding of the deck.

For comparison, here's my current 3-color list compared to Bryant's last 4-color list:

4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Void Snare

4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Bayou
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare

Among each 75, there's a whopping 66 cards in common, the real change is all the sweepers and green stuff are dropped, a Tutor is moved to the side again and a Chrome Mox returns. In the side, there 4 2-ofs in Pyroblast, Needle, Chain and EE. So, let's talk about what this offers:

Flagrant Combo Ease
One of the topics that came up when basic lands were introduced was something like "i cant wait to fetch basic island t1 and combo next turn" because basics aren't entirely conducive to flexing up to 3 colors of mana as needed. However, that issue is only exacerbated when you run a 4th color and cut a Chrome Mox which is both acceleration and color fixing in a good number of cases. With 3 Chrome Moxen, it's easier to set up Wasteland-proof turn 2 kills, and with basics you can setup against hatebear decks.

Mana Efficiency and Not Having to Run Terrible Green Lands
It's worth noting that 1-lander Island is very unappealing to me, as far as the manabase, but that's an issue for both builds. Basics actually do pay big dividends with EE, though, as you can completely disrespect cards like Thalia, Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere (sorta, you may lose an underground sea). compare that to the 4-color list, where you have to coordinate your one green source with another black source, through wasteland to just kill one hate piece. There's also all sort of uncomfortable combinations like Island+V. Island openers against hate decks. The 3-color manabase, if nothing else, lets you fight your own deck the least when it come to keeping hands. The only issue I ended up having to deal with is the occasional dearth of black sources, but even then Chain and EE still operate just fine, as do Needle and Pyroblast (I'm actually considering getting super greedy and dropping one red land to make room for another fetch, but that's probably dumb). Honestly, despite all the hype about being better than Tropical Island, Bayou is pretty bad given it's status as "nonbasic swamp" when it comes to going off.

The UU Elephant in the Room
I'm pretty sure the reflexive response to dropping green is something like "now we lose to Counterbalance" and, to an extent, that's true. If your Discard, Pyroblast and/or EEs all get countered, then yes, you will lose to Counterbalance. However, I don't really think you win a lot of the games where your Miracles opponent has an early/topped Counterbalance and a bunch of counterspells anyway, so, how badly off are you really? I believe it was Timo Schünemann who talked about Abrupt Decay when it was announced saying something like "you don't have to lose to Counter-Top lock unless you want to". I'm saying I would rather beat my Miracles opponent than beat their Counterbalances and that if my loss percentage against Miracles overall drops with this list, than I'm ok with some of that percentage coming from resolved Counterbalance.

The beef I have with Abrupt Decay, aside from my distaste for Bayou/Tropical, is that it is completely counter-productive to the advantage you get playing TES. Abrupt Decay isn't aggressive, you have to find green, hold Decay in your hand, get nothing done, eventually crack the CB then try to go off. Pyroblast at least gives you tempo, doesn't clog your hand, and also subverts Clique more effectively, way more aggressive, way more synergy with the deck. I would much rather just slam Pithing Needles and EEs on 2, because if they land, then ok, Counter-Top lock averted, and if they get countered then hey, I'd have to beat whatever counter they used at some point anyway, maybe I can even just go off the same turn now that the counter's gone! If you want to durdle around, hit land drop and try and put together some bullet-proof Tendrils dream, play ANT, I think the key to this matchups is just coming in with whatever you have forcing them to have an answer in the shortest amount of time and going for the throat if anything lands.

Now, some clarification. A lot of the wins I think this list is capable of do leave a lot to chance. Fast goblin hands that have to dodge Terminus, EE's that might fall to miser Council's Judgment or Wear/Tear, and ofc topped CB/Fow lurk around. But on the plus side, you get to leverage your own competencies and minimize your opponents, and if that doesn't improve a matchup, then what does? Now, I've played a handful of games against Miracles, and I've lost more than I've won, and I would think a lot of people might be in the same boat. A lot of my wins came from better draws (more sb cards etc) or the opponent playing worse than me, I think this is perfectly valid, though as Miracles is pretty understandably an unfavorable matchup. I think it's close, something like 45-55 or 40-60, and I think the 3-color list does have it better than 4-color, but you still do need to have something, either draws or skill, in your favor because on average you SHOULD get edged out by Miracles. That doesn't mean it's worth saddling yourself with a clunky removal spell though. I choose to lose to CB because I think I can beat the whole deck more often if I do.

So yeah, try the 3C 75. EE is aces, I still havent gotten to really test Extraction but it fits the aggressive SB idea.

[PartyMonster]

Actually, since I'm here, I'm gonna just do a write-up on my thoughts on the 3-color list right now, since it is picking up some momentum:

For people considering the 3-color list, it's important to understand what's better and what's worse, because it is a mix of both. ATM, I think the gains exceed the negatives and that is what makes the list worthwhile, and failing to understand either side of it is going to leave you with a poor understanding of the deck.

For comparison, here's my current 3-color list compared to Bryant's last 4-color list:

4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Void Snare

4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Bayou
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare

Among each 75, there's a whopping 66 cards in common, the real change is all the sweepers and green stuff are dropped, a Tutor is moved to the side again and a Chrome Mox returns. In the side, there 4 2-ofs in Pyroblast, Needle, Chain and EE. So, let's talk about what this offers:

Flagrant Combo Ease
One of the topics that came up when basic lands were introduced was something like "i cant wait to fetch basic island t1 and combo next turn" because basics aren't entirely conducive to flexing up to 3 colors of mana as needed. However, that issue is only exacerbated when you run a 4th color and cut a Chrome Mox which is both acceleration and color fixing in a good number of cases. With 3 Chrome Moxen, it's easier to set up Wasteland-proof turn 2 kills, and with basics you can setup against hatebear decks.

Mana Efficiency and Not Having to Run Terrible Green Lands
It's worth noting that 1-lander Island is very unappealing to me, as far as the manabase, but that's an issue for both builds. Basics actually do pay big dividends with EE, though, as you can completely disrespect cards like Thalia, Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere (sorta, you may lose an underground sea). compare that to the 4-color list, where you have to coordinate your one green source with another black source, through wasteland to just kill one hate piece. There's also all sort of uncomfortable combinations like Island+V. Island openers against hate decks. The 3-color manabase, if nothing else, lets you fight your own deck the least when it come to keeping hands. The only issue I ended up having to deal with is the occasional dearth of black sources, but even then Chain and EE still operate just fine, as do Needle and Pyroblast (I'm actually considering getting super greedy and dropping one red land to make room for another fetch, but that's probably dumb). Honestly, despite all the hype about being better than Tropical Island, Bayou is pretty bad given it's status as "nonbasic swamp" when it comes to going off.

The UU Elephant in the Room
I'm pretty sure the reflexive response to dropping green is something like "now we lose to Counterbalance" and, to an extent, that's true. If your Discard, Pyroblast and/or EEs all get countered, then yes, you will lose to Counterbalance. However, I don't really think you win a lot of the games where your Miracles opponent has an early/topped Counterbalance and a bunch of counterspells anyway, so, how badly off are you really? I believe it was Timo Schünemann who talked about Abrupt Decay when it was announced saying something like "you don't have to lose to Counter-Top lock unless you want to". I'm saying I would rather beat my Miracles opponent than beat their Counterbalances and that if my loss percentage against Miracles overall drops with this list, than I'm ok with some of that percentage coming from resolved Counterbalance.

The beef I have with Abrupt Decay, aside from my distaste for Bayou/Tropical, is that it is completely counter-productive to the advantage you get playing TES. Abrupt Decay isn't aggressive, you have to find green, hold Decay in your hand, get nothing done, eventually crack the CB then try to go off. Pyroblast at least gives you tempo, doesn't clog your hand, and also subverts Clique more effectively, way more aggressive, way more synergy with the deck. I would much rather just slam Pithing Needles and EEs on 2, because if they land, then ok, Counter-Top lock averted, and if they get countered then hey, I'd have to beat whatever counter they used at some point anyway, maybe I can even just go off the same turn now that the counter's gone! If you want to durdle around, hit land drop and try and put together some bullet-proof Tendrils dream, play ANT, I think the key to this matchups is just coming in with whatever you have forcing them to have an answer in the shortest amount of time and going for the throat if anything lands.

Now, some clarification. A lot of the wins I think this list is capable of do leave a lot to chance. Fast goblin hands that have to dodge Terminus, EE's that might fall to miser Council's Judgment or Wear/Tear, and ofc topped CB/Fow lurk around. But on the plus side, you get to leverage your own competencies and minimize your opponents, and if that doesn't improve a matchup, then what does? Now, I've played a handful of games against Miracles, and I've lost more than I've won, and I would think a lot of people might be in the same boat. A lot of my wins came from better draws (more sb cards etc) or the opponent playing worse than me, I think this is perfectly valid, though as Miracles is pretty understandably an unfavorable matchup. I think it's close, something like 45-55 or 40-60, and I think the 3-color list does have it better than 4-color, but you still do need to have something, either draws or skill, in your favor because on average you SHOULD get edged out by Miracles. That doesn't mean it's worth saddling yourself with a clunky removal spell though. I choose to lose to CB because I think I can beat the whole deck more often if I do.

So yeah, try the 3C 75. EE is aces, I still havent gotten to really test Extraction but it fits the aggressive SB idea.

This is well written. you made some solid points. I honestly will be testing the idea. losing decay is one thing. I'll admit that I am a bit skeptical of not having xantid swarm. I know leyline hasn't been a thing as much laitly, however with bug delver on the rise I could see it croping up again. the show and tell match up would be pretty shitty at that point. Not overly concerned with it, just wondered if you could field a response to the loss of swarm.

thanks!

[wonderPreaux]

This is well written. you made some solid points. I honestly will be testing the idea. losing decay is one thing. I'll admit that I am a bit skeptical of not having xantid swarm. I know leyline hasn't been a thing as much laitly, however with bug delver on the rise I could see it croping up again. the show and tell match up would be pretty shitty at that point. Not overly concerned with it, just wondered if you could field a response to the loss of swarm.

thanks!

I mentioned earlier that the 3-color build is a trade off, and yes, one of the trade offs is definitely a loss of Xantid Swarm which is the only green card i really miss. Against leyline, your main method of combating it is Void Snare and then Chain of Vapor (which is actually what pushed me to run CoV over a 3rd EE and Massacre, which was my original draft). Again, the logic is to setup a fork on the opponent, if CoV resolves, leyline is over, if it gets FoW'd or Flustered, fine, you had to beat those cards anyway and you sure as hell weren't discarding them.

Against Sneak Attack builds, Needle is also your friend, as it's disruption that forces counters and keeps you safe, you can also let their SnT get your Needle in through counters. Omnitell is kinda all over the place as some builds dont have room for leyline, but those that choose to run it are even worse matchups for you as they have nothing to needle so you'd be really leaning on your Pyroblasts and Chains. Sometimes the best way to beat the Leyline is to bait a counter and then combo hoping they don't have a second counter. again, it's riskier, but the 3-color build can still achieve success. However, Leyline is a big roulette for them too, as it can be a dead draw if they dont open with it, and keeping Leyline + counter hands can make it hard for them to combo, which presents you with some opportunities.

[Asthereal]

The opposite. Chris was/is streaming and I offered him to Skype in or the like to help him out improving his play. Actually it is a general offer if stream times work out and someone wants direct feedback. For more assistance, join the Storm Seminar during GP Lille *laugh*
Ah, sad. We need more streamers!

[Lemnear]

What I miss for the discussion on the 3c lists is the mana-aspect of Explosives to sweep hatebears or permanents in general compared to stuff like Pyroclasm (Maybe this is more of an argument against CoV) and the push/pull effect your opponents Miracles deck can achieve if they run Spell Pierce. Trying to resolve EE through the Counterbalance by pumping excessive mana into it to Dodge certain cmc flips opens you up for Pierces and stuff, not to talk about them running EE as well to kill yours if you (likely) exhausted your mana resolving it. At this point, EE is also an anti-TES card due to it's slow nature to get it resolved, which needs at least 3 IMS and brings you back to the question why those three IMS should not be named Volcanic/Bayou/Underground if you play against Miracles?

Another angle with the 3c list unnamed is going for more discard in the SB to make up for the loss of Xantids, simply to delay opposing gameplans (S&T, Infect, Miracles, Storm, etc.) and picking appart defense rather than blanking it with the bugs. The discard would be supplemented by Wipe Aways (yeah I know: Ad Nauseam flips) to deal with stuff like Counterbalance which slipped through or got topdecked if the matchup requires. This approach is much more in TES' comfort-zone than trying to deal with stuff on a reactive base via Pyroblast/Explosives/etc.

[Togores]

As on my report from friday event I played the 3color list. And tested vs miracles. I beat him all games also due to me being a better player and him not so good. I also won 3 of them with an active balance on table on turn 2. So miracles even if its not nice but with discard, pyro and pithing can be handled.
The real card I missed was xantid. I faced hight tide, sneak and show and omnitell. I won soem games after hard grinding but hand of pierce + flusterstorm or double fluster where all day there. Also apart from this matchup is great vs cloupost, infect, good against miracles and some other blue decks.

So im having a dificult time to figure what deck is better.

[Bryant Cook]

What I miss for the discussion on the 3c lists is the mana-aspect of Explosives to sweep hatebears or permanents in general compared to stuff like Pyroclasm (Maybe this is more of an argument against CoV) and the push/pull effect your opponents Miracles deck can achieve if they run Spell Pierce. Trying to resolve EE through the Counterbalance by pumping excessive mana into it to Dodge certain cmc flips opens you up for Pierces and stuff, not to talk about them running EE as well to kill yours if you (likely) exhausted your mana resolving it. At this point, EE is also an anti-TES card due to it's slow nature to get it resolved, which needs at least 3 IMS and brings you back to the question why those three IMS should not be named Volcanic/Bayou/Underground if you play against Miracles?

Another angle with the 3c list unnamed is going for more discard in the SB to make up for the loss of Xantids, simply to delay opposing gameplans (S&T, Infect, Miracles, Storm, etc.) and picking appart defense rather than blanking it with the bugs. The discard would be supplemented by Wipe Aways (yeah I know: Ad Nauseam flips) to deal with stuff like Counterbalance which slipped through or got topdecked if the matchup requires. This approach is much more in TES' comfort-zone than trying to deal with stuff on a reactive base via Pyroblast/Explosives/etc.

If I was to play three color TES (It's what I have built physically at the moment), I would play this sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

The loss of Xantid isn't much as I considered cutting it even in the four color lists for Pithing Needle the problem with Xantid Swarm is that it doesn't always help in the match-ups it's there for and the color requirement can be a boon. I think you can get away without playing cards like EE or Wipeaway and just focus on being more aggressive/faster than Miracles while having a diverse card like Pyroblast be your catch-all in the match-up. Without Decay I think you really need Chain of Vapor to handle randomness.

[Togores]

Thats the SB I played. Liked the aproach. May be just got super unlucky because 3 matchups and scenarios where xantids would have been nuts.

@Bryant
How would you sb with the abobe list vs infect?
Nothing?
Empty out for...?
Other idea?

[Lemnear]

If I was to play three color TES (It's what I have built physically at the moment), I would play this sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

The loss of Xantid isn't much as I considered cutting it even in the four color lists for Pithing Needle the problem with Xantid Swarm is that it doesn't always help in the match-ups it's there for and the color requirement can be a boon. I think you can get away without playing cards like EE or Wipeaway and just focus on being more aggressive/faster than Miracles while having a diverse card like Pyroblast be your catch-all in the match-up. Without Decay I think you really need Chain of Vapor to handle randomness.

If we could rely on sole speed against Miracles or Chalice.dec, we never picked up Decay in the first place. Miracles is too common in Europe to be fine on YOLO against Counterbalance in several Matches through a day (even ignoring FoW bridging the gap 'till they find CB). Keeping a red mana open to battle Counterbalance is also nothing I consider "being more aggressive/faster".

I don't even know what the buzz is with colors against Miracles. :/

[Asthereal]

I don't even know what the buzz is with colors against Miracles. :/
LOL the whole idea of a three colour list is that it's good against stuff where you don't need green.
If the entire meta was decks against which the green splash rules, we wouldn't be talking about dumping green. :wink:

So the question remains: what to do with a three colour list against that one matchup where you would normally use the Decays and Swarms?

[Lemnear]

LOL the whole idea of a three colour list is that it's good against stuff where you don't need green.
If the entire meta was decks against which the green splash rules, we wouldn't be talking about dumping green. :wink:

So the question remains: what to do with a three colour list against that one matchup where you would normally use the Decays and Swarms?

Throws up the question which matchups would profit from cutting the green SB cards and the sole green land? Aside from drawing land x in an unfortunate moment, I have a hard time seeing much of a difference.

[Pelikanudo]

I play more or less the same list as every one else, I switch between 8 blue fetchlands, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 badland, 1 island and SB tropical and 8 fetch, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 island, 1 swamp, SB bayou and I'm not certain which manabase is better, the first is more stable but the second is faster fwiw so I think it depends on how aggressively you're trying to win on T2.

Well, I still run the 12 full gemstones manabase and I'm happy with it... I thought you ran no basics in your build...

Other than that, I still run Thoughtseize over Duress because of Clique/Mage and keep the 4th Infernal Tutor in the SB and the 3rd Chrome Mox in the MD, mainly because I cut Diminishing Returns and Bribery awhile ago and don't like to be dead to Goblins in the middle game or have to wait for Past in Flames in the late game.

I also thought you ran 4th I.T. main...
I cut D.R. and again put it back again, Bribery I'm trying to make it room but I've won several S&T archetypes withouth it so I pprefer keeping the full set of I.T. main, most of the times I side out 4th I.T.

Other than that, still have a SB Thoughtseize and 1 Pyroblast to be able to wish for disruption or draw removal for Mage off Nauseam, also messing around with running a 3 Underground, 2 Volcanic manabase and SBing both of the basics and bayou in order to have a more flexible manabase pre and then solid, or biggger manabase post as I don't really go for stuff like graveyard hate and just accept Reanimator is a bad match up.

The unique thing I've been trying is the 2Sea2V.Island1Bayou 8 fetches manabase, but the problema is that it is 13 lands so I need to cut something from my main and sincerely I just think it is perfect. I also tryed to take out the 3rd C.M. but prefer keeping it. I still haven't found issues with Gemstone in regards of Mid Late Game

Don't really think Gemstone Mine is the way to go unless you're playing Silence or Autumn's Veil, I really prefer being able to build a manabase while not losing that much speed overall. I mean, it's more important that our opponent feels threatened by a T2 win than it is to actually have a T2 win because we want him to have to mulligan into counters/disruption and have the ability to last into the middle game regardless. I kind of feel like the deck is becoming a little slower than old TES and a lot faster than TPS if that makes any sense at all. And also card quality aside, Gemstone is such an obvious tell that you're playing combo - where if you Misty for an Underground they'll put you on BUG etc.

Well I play 7 Green sources between 4 Decays and 3 Xantid, looking at the new developed manabases I see the availability of colors a real problema, now I have 9 chances to find Green sources, with the current manabase you have only 7 chances. Yeah I remember when I played the 4 C.Moxen list and yes it seems that the TES build is getting slower...
I always liked Autumn's Veil btw, I think like 4 Duress, 3 Veil and a MD Bayou with the Gemstone manabase would be pretty interesting if RUG ever retakes the meta.

Alleluya! well at least one which doesn't dismiss so much A.Veils!, I really see the card as a way to interact vs OmniShow with lylines and gets better the Miracles match up because in here Xantid can be targeted - A.Veils not. Still I prefer the Xantids...


As far as Island goes, even tho' it doesn't set up for the T2 win by having two lands that produce both B and R in and of itself, I think the logic is that you wouldn't fetch Island if you didn't have a cantrip in hand, and if you do dig 3 to 4 cards deeper the likelyhood is you'll hit the Petal/Mox for the missing B or R mana. I mean I played 8 blue fetchlands and Island for a really long time, and I never seemed to have serious problems going off on T2 so I'm kind of suspicious of Swamp to be honest because naturally drawing into T1 disruption, T2 win is kind of "pie in the sky" where Island is pragmatically saying we don't always start with perfect hands and need to start digging for the missing pieces.

This is a problem I commented also:
The thing is that the way I handle Tempo (BUG and RUG) is very different thatn with ANT or TNT, In TES I dont need to stabilize I just throw Duresses and win most of the times the only thing I need is a Mana Source polivalent as my lands really don't remain in play... with ANT I just cantrip for the nuts and win, sure it is more complicated doing this with TES but I think it0s always been the way to go.
Having a insland to do just nothing is not the way to go as you have 13 lands and when you fetch for island only 11 are left in the deck, so if you dont find a Black source for the next turn to make duress or like you are advocated to missery, having in mind this scenario, ok supposed you next play Sea and duress him, that U.Sea will be destroyed and you're even in a worse position now.

Also at Lemnear, people didn't move to the fetchland manabase as soon as they moved to discard, that happened after they moved to discard and I think after I moved to all fetchlands because I remember being on 8 U fetch, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 badland, 1 island while other people were still using gemstones, after which I took a break from the game and missed the Treasure Cruise meta where it seems every body is playing a fetchland manabase now (altho' slightly different).

I think there's room to disagree on how to do things regarding the manabase, disruption and SB, I mean 8 fetch, island, badlands is incredibly good vs RUG, but maybe not as good vs some kind of UW deck with Wasteland and SB Meddling Mages etc. where you want to Thoughtseize to get rid of the hate bear and protect your mana vs a Wasteland. That's probably more relevant for like Death and Taxes or whatever, but the changes on a whole are kind of marginal and mostly suited to the meta or play style preference.

Any way that's my 10 cents, I flip flop between different mana bases and disruption suites so I don't think anything is really objectively better right now, altho I think SBing land is really underrated and too many people are just playing SB cards strictly for really bad match ups like Reanimator when they could be experimenting with more out of the box stuff like that.

Yeah I really hate having that Bayou in side....

Edit: Also with the basics I think Time Spiral is worth taking a look at as you can actually get like 3 land into play for a "3 mana" D7 and it's a win condition between Empty the Warrens being too slow, Past in Flames not having a large enough graveyard to win and Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam costing 1 more mana - it's my current pet card.

I play T.S in my TNT build and it is great, maybe you're ritgh, but thats 8 mana! you'll need to evaluate if you reach 3 or +3 lands when using T.S. if so, then it is a card to have in mind!


I've been very busy Delivery Project Era...

Other things....

I've seen that the trend (usually Bryant's trend) is to play no Green!
We'll IF Miracles is played then I don't know how you intend to handle this match up. Speed? this topic was covered sometime ago...
and what about Xantids? well I'm sure I will miss both Xantids and Decays in my meta...

A change I've made to my list is switching from Massacre to Pyroclasm as I really don't find D&T and the other card is much polivalent, I found a scenario the other day which I've had won if instead I had had pyroclasm as I needed to destroy 2 Blood Moon Mages and 1 P.Nedle critter...

[Izor]

I've been considering dropping green as well lately, but not only because I'd like to have a more stable mana base, but also because the green cards haven't really put in too much work recently.

Decay I really only want against CB, against everything else it feels way too clunky and unnecessary. And Xantids are admittedly good against blue decks without removal, but I've noticed that this is often only true when I'm on the play. On the play it's a strong play to drop Swarm turn 1 and start using your discard only to disrupt their game plan, because all of their counter spells are covered for the remaining match. However, I've also had a fair share of matches where my opponent goes turn 1 cantrip, I drop Swarm on the draw, and they just shrug and resolve Entomb/Study + Reanimate, Show and Tell or whatever they were playing on turn two, and I bit myself for playing a useless creature when a simple discard spell would have been much better for me in that situation. That's the problem with swarm... it doesn't have the flexibility of discard spells. Your Show and Tell opponent can draw slow, counter-heavy hands, but he can also get greedy turn 2 combo hands without protection... Discard spells are good against either hand, Swarm is entirely irrelevant against the latter.

EDIT: I understand that Swarm can actually allow you to win through a resolved Griselbrand even on the draw, but this seems like wishful thinking, not an actual plan. Against Show and Tell this only really works when they have to go Show+Grisel. Any combo setup that involves Sneak or Emrakul circumvents Swarm as a possible out. Against Reanimator it's a similar situation... Swarm only works against exactly Study+Grisel. As soon as any other randomly drawn Fatty that is still in their deck after boarding (aka Iona, Ruric Thar, the discard your whole hand every turn guy, etc) or simply Entomb show up, you're dead.

[Final Fortune]

How should Badlands survive till your turn three or provide you with BR in any case if your Rituals and Business spells are not color-matched?

It's totally pointless to start with an Island because you want to play around Wasteland, but expose your combo-color IMS for a whole turn. If you plan to use a third IMS for your turn 3 kill, Swamp is a million times better than Badlands to drop turn two, but my Main problem with some of you guys perception of an average game is that the T1/2 Discard followed by T2/3 combo (aka 6+ mana available plus a business Spell) through potential mana-disruption is just a fringe case to happen and nothing you should take guaranteed building the Rest of your deck and especially your manabase.

Playing around Wasteland doesn't necessarily mean being immune to it, the way I played that manabase was usually to fetch for Island blind and then fetch for Badlands so the first land drop was protected from Wasteland, the second land drop would pay for discard and then offer either B/R with the 3rd color comming from Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox. I think it's certainly a playable approach to the manabase, altho' I don't know if it's necessarily the best. Right now I'm on 8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 1 Volcanic, Swamp, Island and like being able to fetch 2xBasics vs RUG, so in a Wasteland metagame you may very well be right. I think it kind of comes down to which decks you're expecting to face, because I saw mostly U/w where the Badlands was pretty useful.

I SBed Infernal Tutor and cut Diminishing Returns when I started to run the slower than TES, faster than ANT lists with fetchland manabases, the reason I moved away from Gemstone Mine is mainly because I've been there, done that and think having a deck that the opponent will believe is just as fast while being able to sort of build up a manabase with double basic to go long makes playing the deck a little more interesting for me because you actually see middle games vs RUG etc.

I don't get the green source comment, 8 fetch lands and 1 bayou is 9 sources and not 7? I don't really see what cutting green accomplishes, I mean Miracles and Reanimator/Show gets that much harder in exchange for making what other bad match up winnable?

[Lemnear]

Playing around Wasteland doesn't necessarily mean being immune to it, the way I played that manabase was usually to fetch for Island blind and then fetch for Badlands so the first land drop was protected from Wasteland, the second land drop would pay for discard and then offer either B/R with the 3rd color comming from Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox. I think it's certainly a playable approach to the manabase, altho' I don't know if it's necessarily the best. Right now I'm on 8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 1 Volcanic, Swamp, Island and like being able to fetch 2xBasics vs RUG, so in a Wasteland metagame you may very well be right. I think it kind of comes down to which decks you're expecting to face, because I saw mostly U/w where the Badlands was pretty useful.

I SBed Infernal Tutor and cut Diminishing Returns when I started to run the slower than TES, faster than ANT lists with fetchland manabases, the reason I moved away from Gemstone Mine is mainly because I've been there, done that and think having a deck that the opponent will believe is just as fast while being able to sort of build up a manabase with double basic to go long makes playing the deck a little more interesting for me because you actually see middle games vs RUG etc.

I don't get the green source comment, 8 fetch lands and 1 bayou is 9 sources and not 7? I don't really see what cutting green accomplishes, I mean Miracles and Reanimator/Show gets that much harder in exchange for making what other bad match up winnable?

I see the issues by considering the third IMS granted and the second surviving. If you calculate with losing a land in the given scenario, there is no downside if you start with a Black Dual/Swamp, follow up with a Volcanic and replace one of the two lands with the third IMS if one eats a Wasteland.

The three-IMS-approach bears a lot of problems given our low landcount and is totally unsynergetic with the decks general gameplan to combo early, so Ad Nauseam still has it's maximum efficiency. If you plan to approach games by blind-fetching Island against any unknown opponent and are fine with the game dragging out due to that, I can't imagine this storm shell is the best one to do this.

Basic Island is slowing down the decks gameplan and makes Ad Nauseam/EtW worse. We can't afford that and I fear there is no way to build an Ad Nauseam deck with a Wasteland-proof manabase. If Wasteland and other Tempo-bullshit is rampant, playing TES was never the best choice

[Bryant Cook]

I think there's a big misconception with the fact that basics slow you down. You can win with basic swamp/island on turn one just as easily as you could with Underground Sea, the same could be said for turns two or three - the real difference is that they allow for a longer game if need be. I've been playing with the basics for more than a few months at this point and there's yet to be a situation where I thought, "If this Island was Volcanic Island I would of had a turn one kill."

[Lemnear]

I think there's a big misconception with the fact that basics slow you down. You can win with basic swamp/island on turn one just as easily as you could with Underground Sea, the same could be said for turns two or three - the real difference is that they allow for a longer game if need be. I've been playing with the basics for more than a few months at this point and there's yet to be a situation where I thought, "If this Island was Volcanic Island I would of had a turn one kill."

You got me wrong. It isn't about deciding which land you fetch to be able to kill turn 1/2/3, my comment was about "autopilot-fetching" the Island as first land against anything, no matter if that harms your turn 2/3 or not (therefore the focus on the third IMS). That behaviour is that I consider slowing down the deck

[Bryant Cook]

You got me wrong. It isn't about deciding which land you fetch to be able to kill turn 1/2/3, my comment was about "autopilot-fetching" the Island as first land against anything, no matter if that harms your turn 2/3 or not (therefore the focus on the third IMS). That behaviour is that I consider slowing down the deck

I would agree with that general sentiment.

[Final Fortune]

You got me wrong. It isn't about deciding which land you fetch to be able to kill turn 1/2/3, my comment was about "autopilot-fetching" the Island as first land against anything, no matter if that harms your turn 2/3 or not (therefore the focus on the third IMS). That behaviour is that I consider slowing down the deck

That's a misquote, I don't auto-pilot fetch Island vs anything, it depends on the composition of the hand and whether or not the opponent is unknown. If I can afford to fetch an Island in order to cantrip and wait for my second land to produce black vs an unknown opponent then I'd rather wait for the second land to produce black than risk a Wasteland - it's essentially the same with Swamp and discard as well now. Furthermore you obviously deviate based on whether or not you have Gitaxian Probe in your opening hand or you're on the draw and see their first land drop, I just played that way because originally every fetch was blue since Tropical Island was in the SB and thus Island was the only basic.

My main point is that fetching Island doesn't slow the deck so much that it relegates you to winning on T3 necessarily, and even if it does winning on T3 isn't exactly slow either. You seem to have a bias against Island and believe it always color screws you because you can't guarantee two lands that produce B/R on T2, but frankly I just haven't had that problem myself and considering the deck used to need UBRW regulary I find it kind of puzzling that you don't think the deck can have UBR by T2/3 because of 1 or 2 basics. Cantrips and artifact mana generally sort out the color requirements fwiw.

[Lemnear]

That's a misquote, I don't auto-pilot fetch Island vs anything, it depends on the composition of the hand and whether or not the opponent is unknown. If I can afford to fetch an Island in order to cantrip and wait for my second land to produce black vs an unknown opponent then I'd rather wait for the second land to produce black than risk a Wasteland - it's essentially the same with Swamp and discard as well now. Furthermore you obviously deviate based on whether or not you have Gitaxian Probe in your opening hand or you're on the draw and see their first land drop, I just played that way because originally every fetch was blue since Tropical Island was in the SB and thus Island was the only basic.

My main point is that fetching Island doesn't slow the deck so much that it relegates you to winning on T3 necessarily, and even if it does winning on T3 isn't exactly slow either. You seem to have a bias against Island and believe it always color screws you because you can't guarantee two lands that produce B/R on T2, but frankly I just haven't had that problem myself and considering the deck used to need UBRW regulary I find it kind of puzzling that you don't think the deck can have UBR by T2/3 because of 1 or 2 basics. Cantrips and artifact mana generally sort out the color requirements fwiw.

No, I don't think you can calculate with UBR turn two as a given standard against Stifle, Wasteland, Chalice, Spell Pierces, etc. If you shift your gameplan more towards turn 3 or 4 to actually have a more realistic chance to assemble that UBR mana to be able to combo off (given you started with Island) you not only go into ANT territory or critical turns but seriously harm your Ad Nauseams and RoFs like I mentioned on the FB Group. The complete point about playing TES over ANT is getting absurd if you aim for turn 3-4 kills because of sheer fear of being hit by a random wasteland.

If you calculate with 3 IMS anyways against Wasteland it does only make a difference against Daze if it is Island + Swamp + Petal or U.Sea + volcanic + Petal if we look at the sheer ability to produce BR by turn two.

Going for the basics is fine if you KNOW there is wasteland in your opponents hand or if your opponent runs any wasteland-lock like via Loam, but deciding to go for Island because of fear is a mistake I mentioned even back at the time Bryant came up with the idea in this thread

[Asthereal]

I feel we may be discussing the wrong things regarding Basics in TES. Most people here are good enough players to calculate and decide which lands to fetch to accomplish the highest chance to win a certain game from a certain point. Besides, whether decisions are difficult should not be an argument for or against playing a certain setup. The main problem is that you sometimes draw a Basic when it's bad. A Swamp when you want to be casting cantrips, or the Island when you need a combo colour. This happens to me quite often in ANT, which already plays more lands than TES, but generally requires no initial red mana. This scares me away from Basics in TES. Maybe unjustified, because I haven't tested it thoroughly, but this is my main concern.

PS. I have requested access to the TES group on Facebook. If you see a request from a guy with an (in English) unpronouncable name, and a profile pic with chess pieces, that's me. :cool:

PPS. Holy shizz Bryant, that was fast! Do you have the day off? :wink:

[Lemnear]

I feel we may be discussing the wrong things regarding Basics in TES. Most people here are good enough players to calculate and decide which lands to fetch to accomplish the highest chance to win a certain game from a certain point. Besides, whether decisions are difficult should not be an argument for or against playing a certain setup. The main problem is that you sometimes draw a Basic when it's bad. A Swamp when you want to be casting cantrips, or the Island when you need a combo colour. This happens to me quite often in ANT, which already plays more lands than TES, but generally requires no initial red mana. This scares me away from Basics in TES. Maybe unjustified, because I haven't tested it thoroughly, but this is my main concern.

PS. I have requested access to the TES group on Facebook. If you see a request from a guy with an (in English) unpronouncable name, and a profile pic with chess pieces, that's me. :cool:

PPS. Holy shizz Bryant, that was fast! Do you have the day off? :wink:

I share your concerns. You get either punished by the Basics if you want the Belcher mode off 1-2 IMS or the game drags into the turn 3-4 range where the lower Individual card powerlevel really hurts compared to ANT plus the know problems with the red initial mana.

On the FB Group: we have hit 97 members today! Wasn't aware there are that many peeps even interrested in the deck lol

[Alix444]

So I finally got to play testing against my friend playing elves, I had a blast fizzling left and right. I think I was getting too ambitious with my lines. How often does everyone win with an empty for 12 goblins or something close to that? And maybe my ad nauseams were just bad too.... This deck is crazy stylish and a blast to play.

[Lemnear]

So I finally got to play testing against my friend playing elves, I had a blast fizzling left and right. I think I was getting too ambitious with my lines. How often does everyone win with an empty for 12 goblins or something close to that? And maybe my ad nauseams were just bad too.... This deck is crazy stylish and a blast to play.

12 is at least not enough against Elves. You need 14 to get around DRS/Nettle blocks before they trample over you ~turn 3 otherwise. AN are rarely bad in this deck of you know what you are looking for and floating the right colors. Being greedy with AN and drawing yourself basically and/or literally dead is a no-go

[Ebonclaw]

So I've slotted Diminishing Returns back into the board because I sometimes found myself really wishing I had it when reaching with a Burning Wish- the local meta doesn't feature a lot of blue- and the other day I really really screwed dredge over with it, even though I didn't win that turn. Storm players looking to hate on dredge might do well to squeeze this back into the board- it still performs its originally intended function as well as it ever did if you're careful in its deployment against some decks. I still also pack the PiF engine as well.
I'd be interested in knowing how the higher level players feel about bringing this card back- is the only thing stopping it the difference in local vs national metas, or do you find PiF to be a blatantly superior engine?

[Lemnear]

So I've slotted Diminishing Returns back into the board because I sometimes found myself really wishing I had it when reaching with a Burning Wish- the local meta doesn't feature a lot of blue- and the other day I really really screwed dredge over with it, even though I didn't win that turn. Storm players looking to hate on dredge might do well to squeeze this back into the board- it still performs its originally intended function as well as it ever did if you're careful in its deployment against some decks. I still also pack the PiF engine as well.
I'd be interested in knowing how the higher level players feel about bringing this card back- is the only thing stopping it the difference in local vs national metas, or do you find PiF to be a blatantly superior engine?

Against non-blue you can reach for EtW and win in two swings instead of just hoping to draw into the nuts with DimRet. Dredge is a marginal popular deck and also presents a race you can win with Goblins or AN anyways (especially Manaless Dredge).

The overall Problem of DimRet remains the average format metagame and the Roulette factor. It doesn't serve it's original purpose anymore (life independant wishable engine). Between PIF, which serves a similar role, and EtW, there is no space for relics like DimRet or IGG.

[paeng4983]

Participated at yesterday's GPT here wherein we had it 5 rds cut to top4.
But the top 4 decided to split the prizes and let one of them get the bye.
My MUs were:

Grixis Tempo 2-1
Miracle 2-0
Belcher 2-1
BUG 2-0
BUG id

After swiss I landed first.

@Cook, How was your day at PA?

[Bryant Cook]

I went to The Tales of Adventure Eternal Extravangza 2 this past weekend, I think it was a productive event. I certainly feel my record doesn’t reflect the decklist.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames


Round 1 - Dark Maverick:

G1- He mulligans to five on the play and leads off with Bayou before passing. I put him on Shardless BUG or Jund because Elves would’ve likely have played a one drop. My hand is Polluted Delta, Underground Sea, Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm, Burning Wish and Lion’s Eye Diamond. I draw for the turn and it’s another land. I decide I’d rather save the Probes for the following turn’s storm count - on top of that, if I’m hit with Thoughtseize or Hymn they’re essentially a blank. I play Polluted Delta to act as a control deck and pass. Savannah into Gaddock Teeg - well then. I draw for turn and it’s Duress. I fire off both Gitaxian Probes revealing Sylvan Library, Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquary. Drawing Rite of Flame and Cabal Therapy. I Brainstorm (didn’t take notes on this), fetch and Duress away Sylvan Library. Wasteland’s my Underground Sea and plays Thalia, I slowly lose after this.

G2-I mulligan and play Cabal Therapy on Thalia turn one, he has Forest, Dryad Arbor, Horizon Canopy, Cannonist, Hierarch, SFM and Green Sun’s Zenith. He draws, thinks and plays Canopy into Mother of Ruins. I draw and pay Gitaxian Probe, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy (SFM) and Empty the Warrens (Naturally). Flash back both Therapys on GSZ and Cannonist. His next two draw steps are Deathrite Shaman and Green Sun’s Zenith for a second Shaman to recover and eventually win the game. There was a situation while grinding in the mid-game where if I had a Grapeshot in my sideboard I couldve killed his team forcing him to tap Mother so it couldn’t block that turn and kill both his Shamans. Where neither ‘Clasm nor Masacre would’ve worked.

0-1

Round 2 - MUD:

G1 - I Probe him turn one to see Ugin, Sundering Titan, Staff of Domination, Wurmcoil Engine and three lands. Shockingly, I won this game.

G2 - At one point he had two Trinisphere and two Lodestone Golem. Shockingly, I didn’t win that game.

G3 - My opening hand is Bloodstained Mire, Chrome Mox, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Abrupt Decay and Rite of Flame. I have two options, I can play Bloodstained Mire, Chrome Mox (Imprinting Infernal Tutor) and Lion’s Eye Diamond and pass. This way, I can destroy Chalice on turn one and then untap and Ad Nauseam if I draw a mana source. This loses to a second Chalice that turn or if he can cast Trinisphere. The second option is to make Goblins and hope he doesn’t have Ratchet Bomb in his deck. I took the ladder.

1-1

Round 3 - Sneak & Show:

G1 - I Probe him turn one to reveal a pair of Force of Will, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Ancient Tomb, Volcanic Island and Emrakul. I follow up with Cabal Therapy, he Forces pitching Force. He plays Volcanic Island. I play Ponder. He plays Show and Tell, I put in a land - he puts in Emrakul. I untap and hardcast Ad Nauseam (4 lands and Rite of Flame!), it resolves.

G2 - He plays Volcanic and passes. I play Xantid Swarm, he Forces pitching Spell Pierce. He draws and passes missing his land drop, over the next three turns I shred his hand with 3 discard spells including Burning Wish for Thoughtseize. Following this, I Infernal for Ad Nauseam after leaving him with Sneak Attacks and an Emrakul.

2-1

Round 4 - Elves:

G1 - I have turn two Ad Nauseam, Elves can’t interact.

G2 - I asked his opening hand after the game, he said it was Bayou, Thoughtseize, Therapy, Therapy, Natural Order, Visionary and a fetch. I got wrecked this game but did manage to see him Natural Order for Ruric Thar.

G3 - A super long game where I ended up casting all 4 of my Burning Wishes, it was really a discard battle.The first Wish was for Pyroclasm to clear his board. The second Wish was to get Void Snare after a Natural Order for Ruric Thar. He says okay, I reach for my sideboard, he says take 6. I say I’m going to call a judge because I believe he’s missed his trigger, the judge agrees. I get Snare and bounce it. I go to 8 instead of 2. He plays a Deathrite Shaman (which would allow him to cast the Thar on his next turn - only Thar in his hand). I draw a Ponder, draw Brainstorm, fetch so that I can get a look at new cards. Brainstorm, finding the third Burning Wish. Wish for Empty (8 Goblins) and flashback a Therapy. He draws and passes. I draw Duress, play it, he reveals Craterhoof. I attack, he blocks and gains two life. This happens for a few turns, but also finally draws a creature - a second Deathrite Shaman. I draw Infernal Tutor, I only have six lands at this point, no other mana. If I had a Grapeshot in my sideboard, I could attack, let him block and gain life, then kill both using a Grapeshot leaving me with 3-4 Goblins. Instead I Infernal for Wish. I don’t cast it, because he has Therapies in his Graveyard. But if I draw a spell on my turn that I can cast with before Tendrils, I win. He plays Natural Order sacrificing a Deathrite getting another Deathrite as he needed a creature to gain life with or else he would’ve lost. I draw a spell and kill him.

3-1

Round 5 - Jund:

G1 - I play Delta, Sea and Ponder. He plays Bayou into Deathrite. I play Ad Nauseam. Before I kill him, I cast Probe to get more information, he doesn’t concede - he shows me he’s on Jund.

G2 - A longer game. We get to a point where I make 12 Goblins but am actually forced to chump block against his two Goyfs, Bob and Ooze. I kill the Ooze and the Bob. He plays Lilliana. I no longer hand a hand. I draw Infernal, count my lands. I have exactly enough mana where if I get LED next turn I can cast Burning Wish for Past in Flames with a mana floating if I can draw Wish off the top. He shuffles my deck, I actually drew one of my two remaining Burning Wish! Take that line and make 18 Goblins. He reveals the top card of his deck for his draw step and concedes!

4-1

Round 6 - Esper Deathblade:

G1 - Another long grindy game, it comes down to a Clique on my draw step, where I draw Brainstorm that turn and cast it. Hiding both Ad Nauseam and Empty before revealing a ton of mana, Ponder and Probe. He takes a Petal trying to shut me off mana. I draw both cards that turn after a Probe revealing Batterskull, Force of Will and Ponder. I play Dark Ritual which makes him Force or else I could run away with the game. If Lloyd draws a fifth land he could cast his Batterskull. He draws a Wasteland and cuts me off my fifth mana for Ad Nauseam instead by wasting my Volcanic. I draw Ponder, cast it into Therapy. Discard his Batterskull and the following turn make 10 Goblins against his 5 lands and a Clique.

G2 - I don’t have any notes other than “Get crushed, son!”

G3 - We both play Fetchland go for a few turns, on my draw step he Cliques me on turn three. My hand is all gas, I was waiting for an opening. He takes something but it doesn’t matter. I Probe and see True-Name Nemesis, Dig Through Time, Stoneforge Mystic and lands. I Therapy him for Stoneforge, make 16 Goblins and then take Dig. He draws another Dig, casts it but doesn’t find one of his two Zealous Persecution.

5-1

Round 7 - Sneak & Show:

G1 - Similiar to my first go against this deck. I Probe and see a pair of Force of Will, Emrakul, Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, Volcanic Island and Sneak Attack. I play a Therapy which gets Forced. I cantrip on my next turn, he plays the Sneak but can’t activate. All I can do is make 16 Goblins and flashback hitting Emrakul. I do that leaving him with just Fire/Ice in hand, his two lands and Sneak. He draws Emrakul. Great, but dumb Bryant sacrificed both of his lands before looking at his life total. I was at two. I get pretty visually upset with myself just incase I draw a discard spell, I even say this out loud before drawing for turn. I flip the top card of my deck as I’ve lost, I wish I was lying about this but it was actually Duress. Doesn’t matter though, he reveals that the top card of his deck is Griselbrand… somedraws…

G2 - I don’t know what he was thinking but he taps out with Flusterstorm in hand to play Sneak Attack and passes after I’ve discarded his Force of Will earlier on with a blind Therapy. I Ad Nauseam?

G3 - He plays a turn two Stronghold Gambit, I have a Needle in my hand that I’m looking at. Awkward. I Brainstorm in response hoping to find Xantid Swarm, but I do not. It’s Emrakul. I untap and start counting, I Probe seeing a Force with a blue card. I have two lines of play I can make, with a judge watching and spectators. I make sure my math is correct to not look foolish. I can take the more legal line and play Chrome Mox removing my Cabal Therapy to cast Needle and pray he’s dumb enough to Force it (after all, he’s been playing sloppy and making questionable decisions) then Burning Wish for Tendrils and have mana to cast it. The alternative is to not Imprint on the Mox, cast Therapy discarding his Force and then play Burning Wish. The problem with this is I can’t actually cast the Tendrils of Agony, I’m a mana short. I’d have to hope he just concedes to a Wish and saying, “Grab Tendrils?”

I take the more legal line as he had been counting my mana initially but not towards the end of the turn. He doesn’t Force the Needle but Forces my Wish instead. I talked to the judge who was watching afterward, he said I was bordering slow play with how long my thought process took (however, it was a tough call and it wasn’t going to end in a draw). He said he would’ve been upset with me if I didn’t announce mana floating when casting the Wish and it would’ve looked sketchy. However legal. I don’t know if he would’ve just scooped, oh well.

5-2

Round 8 - Miracles:

G1 - I shred his hand, leaving him with only white cards. I go for Ad Nuaseam, he flops Top and plays Counterspell. No blue card needed for that one. We play draw, go for awhile but by the time I’m ready to go off on the following turn he finally finds a counterbalance.

G2 - I play a turn one Duress taking his top, he has tons of countermagic but only one land. He draws lands for the first few turns, I play Xantid which gets Forced pitching another counterspell. I draw Needle and cast it but it doesn’t impact the game at all. It was a tough call on the Duress, but I was really unsatisfied with Needle. I lose to Clique and Snapcaster.

5-3

Round 9 - Shardless:

I’m actually late to the round as I was in the middle of a transaction with a dealer in a different room. But I’m playing my friend Nick that I drove down with. He tells me we can draw into top 64, but neither of us can top 32 because of our breakers. I tell him that I never got a chance to look at the standings because of the dealer. But I believe him if thats the case. Well, he was wrong. We were 71 & 72 or something along those lines.

As for the record, I felt like I was sort of screwed out of two wins, only really losing against Miracles. Variance happens.

It’s tough to blame him, I was mentally and physically exhausted as well. We left Syracuse at 5:30am to get there on-time at 10. The third person in our car did manage to snag 20th place for a FBB German Badlands with an Abzan deck that I built for him.

The event ran smoothly and I even managed to flip the Japanese foil Onslaught Bloodstained Mire for two Japanese foil Khans Flooded Strands and a Japanese foil Khans Windswept Heath. SA-weeeeet!

As for the decklist, I was really disappointed with Needle and never once wanted Massacre. I also wanted Grapeshot a few times, even against the Esperblade deck I can remember thinking it might’ve been useful in one of the lines I was considering. I want a third Xantid Swarm, still unsure about the other slots.

EDIT: Just realized I didn't do sideboarding, but I'm feeling lazy. I sided in Thoughtseize a decent amount of the time in non-blue matches.

[Togores]

Still tood job and report. Shitt happens.
I would have gonne for the riskier line and do my opp conceding. Its the think i most like about storm. Winings games just because of bluff.

Whats rounds/opponents you sidded out the infernal?

So acording to you your new sb would be:
Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre ----> never used may be take out for?...
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

[sa3xxx]

Yesterday I attended Austrian Legacy Championship qualifier in Bratislava with the exact 75 as on the first page.
There where around 18 players, so 5 rounds + top 8.

1.round : Mono black
Two easy games, blind therapy on hymn game one, then 12 goblins (turn after), game two duress on trinisphere, the tendrils for 14 (enough after his own pox), 2:0
(SB : decays + bayou, out mox, ponder, volcanic island and one other card)

1-0-0

2. round : Nic fit
I loved this match-up because of 2 basic lands :) I had more discard then he did and he had more unimportant cards.
Only remarkable moment was me having storm 7 and enough mana to either go for AN or goblins. I knew about pernicious deeds in his hand, but I got therapy in GY. But he also had Sensei + Fetchland so was quite capable of finding another deeds. I decided to go for AN (on 16hp) and killed him (after the game he showed me deeds in top 3 cards in library, so good call by me) 2:0

(SB : I think none)

2-0-0

3. round : Death & Taxes

First game mulligan to 4 (haven't seen any lands), so first loss was quick. Two other were quick as well, blind therapy on thalia + goblins + flashbacks on possible threads. 2:1

(SB : decay set for duresses I guess)

3-0-0

2 rounds of draws (bant and SnT)

3-0-2

Top 8 : merfolks (worst possible match-up in top 8)

First game he showed me 3 Fows + 4 captains + vial. I managed to get rid of the fows, but captains trampled me. Game two very similiar, 2 fows + chalice + daze + som mermaids.

(SB : in xantid swarms + decays, out infernal, probe, mox, ponder + 1 other card)

I was really happy with the deck, worked nicely, only lost to really bad matchup with very good draws.

cya

s.

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant:
When testing Nedles, I also evaluated them as a not that much impact card, I quickly replaced them for more Xantids and other cards.
I still believe that Nedles needs to be played as a full package if you want them to make a big impact. (gitaxian and nedle on Fetch or likes...) but I still dislike them.


@Storm Folks:
I've been evaluating playing a single Grim Tutor in Side instead of D.Returns, has anybody played G.Tutor in Side? (I remember when I played 1 main and it was shit...), but having the option to grab A.N. having still Full I.T. seems great for 1st games, although seems redundant for 2nd and 3rd games....

Still running Full Gemstones 3 C.Mox 12 Lands List.

a note:
I've finally took out Massacre from my Side, the fact is that I still haven't used it and I found pyroclasm much more polivalent for the same purpose, as example the other day I encountered a scenario in which if having pyroclasm would have won vs Red MUD (he had Mage of the Moon and the Nedle Boy as unique attackers... and the only way to kill them were pyro)


@Togores:

I have that exact side but:
+1 A.Decay
+1 D.R.
+1 Duress
=
-1 Massacre
-1 T.Seize
-1 G.Shot

[Lemnear]

@Storm Folks:
I've been evaluating playing a single Grim Tutor in Side instead of D.Returns, has anybody played G.Tutor in Side? (I remember when I played 1 main and it was shit...), but having the option to grab A.N. having still Full I.T. seems great for 1st games, although seems redundant for 2nd and 3rd games....

@Togores:

I have that exact side but:
+1 A.Decay
+1 D.R.
+1 Duress
=
-1 Massacre
-1 T.Seize
-1 G.Shot

The casual 10 mana playline trough Daze/Pierce with 3 life lost ... I was never a fan of the SB Infernal for the mere reason of time it takes to accumulate the mana in average and the fact that the turns that takes also hurt your Ad Nauseam. Suggesting an option which costs 1 mana more and 3 life on top of the existing problems is totally off. I don't get your love for DimRet, but at least you are not alone: I've had to scratch my head today during a short visit in a certain german forum with people discussing how awesome Time Spiral is...




(SB : in xantid swarms + decays, out infernal, probe, mox, ponder + 1 other card)

I don't get this Boarding. It's either MB Chalice or MB FoW. Squeezing in Xantids AND Decay w/o cutting down Discard against your opponents (likely) only 4 FoWs sounds like a waste. Also: Boarding Probe *sigh*

[Asthereal]

Wish ANT can get away with playing the Grim Tutor on side because it generates more mana than TES utilising Cabal Rituals. TES generates less mana than ANT, but does so faster. That's why Empty the Warrens, for instance, is so much better in TES than it is in ANT. Grim Tutor is the slowest and most mana hungry Wish target wincon ever played in competitive Legacy, and as such it doesn't belong in TES. [/personal opinion]

@Lem: Spiral in TES? Really? I can imagine your frown when you read about that. :eek: I can think of at least six reasons why Diminishing Returns is better in TES, and most of us don't even play that one. I tried Spiral in my Doomsday list and ended up cutting it because it sucked, and that's the Tendrils list where it should fit best.

[Lemnear]

@Lem: Spiral in TES? Really? I can imagine your frown when you read about that. :eek: I can think of at least six reasons why Diminishing Returns is better in TES, and most of us don't even play that one. I tried Spiral in my Doomsday list and ended up cutting it because it sucked, and that's the Tendrils list where it should fit best.

I do. You can find that stuff over at mtg-forum.de if you give a fuck reading comments from people who are unable to think two steps ahead, a repeating source of my personal frustration, because people do not understand the idiocy between this decks core design to work with 2 IMS (not necessary lands) and the suggestion to run a card which works (better than DimRet) with 3+ LANDS.

For me, it's as frustrating as discussing options for 2BBR and 3 life to fetch Ad Nauseam. Maybe it's just me who feels drained by that stuff

[Asthereal]

I do. You can find that stuff over at mtg-forum.de if you give a fuck reading comments from people who are unable to think two steps ahead, a repeating source of my personal frustration, because people do not understand the idiocy between this decks core design to work with 2 IMS (not necessary lands) and the suggestion to run a card which works (better than DimRet) with 3+ LANDS.

For me, it's as frustrating as discussing options for 2BBR and 3 life to fetch Ad Nauseam. Maybe it's just me who feels drained by that stuff
It's not just you. In the Team America thread someone again mentioned boarding a Pithing Needle or two against Storm to stop LEDs. :eyebrow: Makes me want to quit this forum, but then again there's no real alternative for in depth Legacy discussion, so we'll have to cope I guess.

I have a Q: Has everyone abandoned the 2x Cabal Ritual, 1x Infernal on side and no main deck Empty list?
Last time I played TES I ran that list, and I feel it should be really strong in today's Cruiseless meta.

[wonderPreaux]

It's not just you. In the Team America thread someone again mentioned boarding a Pithing Needle or two against Storm to stop LEDs. :eyebrow: Makes me want to quit this forum, but then again there's no real alternative for in depth Legacy discussion, so we'll have to cope I guess.

I have a Q: Has everyone abandoned the 2x Cabal Ritual, 1x Infernal on side and no main deck Empty list?
Last time I played TES I ran that list, and I feel it should be really strong in today's Cruiseless meta.

given that the cruiseless meta led to a return of DRS, and maverick/Dnt are decks that do pop up, the idea of taking out EtW for Cabal Ritual seems pretty unattractive, imo. If anything, I was running Cabals and no EtW IN the cruise meta, because aggressive combo decks, CB, and reanimator were terrible for EtW, and Cabal Ritual to ignore Daze was great against Delver

edit: also, the cruiseless meta shifts us back to the sb tutor as there is no way to draw cards with wish otherwise :/ unless you want awkward cards like dim ret, or weird bad ones like night's whisper

[Pelikanudo]

Related Time spiral in TES:

Well I believe that the Reasoning Line is the following:

"Now that in TES you play Permanent lands and an increased Land Count and is slower therefore there is more chances to reach a 3 mana scenario - for this scenario - T.Spiral is not that bad. and for this scenario T.S. is better than D.Returns in terms of mana efficiency"

I can not disagree on this.

In my 12 Lands Gemstones Build I absolutly prefer D.Returns,
BUT for example this list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493&iddeck=76528

won in a single tournament 10 or 12 match ups loosing uniquely 1 AND plays 1 T.Spiral in side. Sure this is not TES.

Thanks Lem for your opinión, but G.Tutor in side is something I've not tested yet. although I need to agree on each statement you mentioned...
The first testing doens't seem so bad....
I made some plays with a B.W in hand.
something I love is to C.Mox , Land > B.Wish for Grim Tutor > Win on next turn. this is not that bad.

On the other hand I'm happy with my D.R. I just want to test something different ;). Joke.

[Lemnear]

Related Time spiral in TES:

Well I believe that the Reasoning Line is the following:

"Now that in TES you play Permanent lands and an increased Land Count and is slower therefore there is more chances to reach a 3 mana scenario - for this scenario - T.Spiral is not that bad. and for this scenario T.S. is better than D.Returns in terms of mana efficiency"

I can not disagree on this.

The argument is still absurd, because it not only ignores the fact, that the deck isn't made to go the long run (Moxen, RoF, etc.), but also never mentions the problems occuring if you wield your opponent a fresh grip. Funnily, the same aspects are also totally ignored in the thread on the german board. It's like playing Enter the Infinite in the SB just because the deck is 40% mana. :)


Thanks Lem for your opinión, but G.Tutor in side is something I've not tested yet. although I need to agree on each statement you mentioned...
The first testing doens't seem so bad....
I made some plays with a B.W in hand.
something I love is to C.Mox , Land > B.Wish for Grim Tutor > Win on next turn. this is not that bad.

On the other hand I'm happy with my D.R. I just want to test something different ;). Joke.

I doubt it is worth testing based on pure theory-crafting of the craze to pay 3 life and 5 mana to gain access to AN. Your example is far-fetched imo: you 2-for-1 yourself with Mox and still have 8 mana + Grim for your next turn (once more ignoring all possible defense) and going to AN with one less Mox in the deck and 3 life less. Why do you, if you can win next turn with grim as you have all the mana, not simply wish for Goblins instead and ignore all variance involving AN-flips or topdecked hate?

[Asthereal]

given that the cruiseless meta led to a return of DRS, and maverick/Dnt are decks that do pop up, the idea of taking out EtW for Cabal Ritual seems pretty unattractive, imo. If anything, I was running Cabals and no EtW IN the cruise meta, because aggressive combo decks, CB, and reanimator were terrible for EtW, and Cabal Ritual to ignore Daze was great against Delver

edit: also, the cruiseless meta shifts us back to the sb tutor as there is no way to draw cards with wish otherwise :/ unless you want awkward cards like dim ret, or weird bad ones like night's whisper
With Miracles running rampant, I'm not sure Empty the Warrens is very reliable.
And if we want, we can always put two in the sideboard, so we can board one in when needed.

[d0nkey]

Wish ANT can get away with playing the Grim Tutor on side because it generates more mana than TES utilising Cabal Rituals. TES generates less mana than ANT, but does so faster. That's why Empty the Warrens, for instance, is so much better in TES than it is in ANT. Grim Tutor is the slowest and most mana hungry Wish target wincon ever played in competitive Legacy, and as such it doesn't belong in TES. [/personal opinion]

@Lem: Spiral in TES? Really? I can imagine your frown when you read about that. :eek: I can think of at least six reasons why Diminishing Returns is better in TES, and most of us don't even play that one. I tried Spiral in my Doomsday list and ended up cutting it because it sucked, and that's the Tendrils list where it should fit best.

Spiral in doomsday is great.

[wonderPreaux]

With Miracles running rampant, I'm not sure Empty the Warrens is very reliable.
And if we want, we can always put two in the sideboard, so we can board one in when needed.

G1 EtW is better than most give it credit for, esp since g1 you have no EE/Decay/Pyro to hit CB. I'd rather gamble against their Terminus than their CBs g1, as they have fewer of them on average, esp with natural EtW being so solid against their counters g1 (no flusterstorm). If you want two EtW, you probably should just run 1 main as it makes your sb Tutor and general matchup composition stronger all-around.

[wonderPreaux]

I went to The Tales of Adventure Eternal Extravangza 2 this past weekend, I think it was a productive event. I certainly feel my record doesn’t reflect the decklist.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

As for the decklist, I was really disappointed with Needle and never once wanted Massacre. I also wanted Grapeshot a few times, even against the Esperblade deck I can remember thinking it might’ve been useful in one of the lines I was considering. I want a third Xantid Swarm, still unsure about the other slots.

EDIT: Just realized I didn't do sideboarding, but I'm feeling lazy. I sided in Thoughtseize a decent amount of the time in non-blue matches.

I forgot to ask this before, Bryant, how are you liking the main deck you have listed here? I notice you dropped the Misty for another Mire and I'm wondering how you feel about the lack of island access vs the worth of 7 swamp fetches + whatever bluffing value it might have. another thing i'm curious about, to anyone running roughly this list, is how youve all been liking basics + 2 C. Mox with 4 Tutor main.

[Asthereal]

G1 EtW is better than most give it credit for, esp since g1 you have no EE/Decay/Pyro to hit CB. I'd rather gamble against their Terminus than their CBs g1, as they have fewer of them on average, esp with natural EtW being so solid against their counters g1 (no flusterstorm). If you want two EtW, you probably should just run 1 main as it makes your sb Tutor and general matchup composition stronger all-around.
I tend to get Terminused when I go for Empty game one, but sitting around waiting for a Tendrils approach indeed runs the risk of running into a Counterbalance lock. I haven't extensively tested it, but my experience scares me away from Empty the Warrens. Maybe Empty is a better gamble game one, and maybe I just have to get over it. :tongue:

[Arguru]

Hi guys!after playing ANT for a couple of months,I decide to go back to TES for the next tournament this sunday...

I'll play the same main as the first page,but i have some doubt on the sb...i don't like pithing needle,so i think my sb will be something like this:

1 Bayou
3 abrupt decay
3 Xantid swarm
1 Tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames
1 void snare
1 pyroclasm
1 thoughtseize

And i have 2 free slots...i was thinking of playing 1 chain of vapor and 1 massacre/grapeshot/2nd pyroclasm,what do you think?

PS:I fully agree with wonderPreaux about g1 warrens against miracles

[Togores]

I have won many games vs miracles just because of warrens after balamce. Its a plan that happens sometimes.

And lately I have lost 2 games be ause not having grapeshot. So im happy to have it back in and will play it for sure.

[nevilshute]

Could someone point me to the page number (roughly) were people started forgoing rainbow lands completely for the ANT-esque mana base?

[wonderPreaux]

I tend to get Terminused when I go for Empty game one, but sitting around waiting for a Tendrils approach indeed runs the risk of running into a Counterbalance lock. I haven't extensively tested it, but my experience scares me away from Empty the Warrens. Maybe Empty is a better gamble game one, and maybe I just have to get over it. :tongue:

Well, here's the other thing: if you rarely go for EtW, but get terminus'd "often", how often is it really? if you do it enough, your sample size will shift you away from positive/negative variance and towards the true mean, which I would tend to think of as lower than the average amount of time a CB just drops on you g1. Moreover, we're talking about a MD EtW here, which means it's most relevant for a 4, or 6 (or, i suppose, 8) mana line. These relatively low-cost lines can be so important.

For instance, if the opponent is on the play and leads Island (or hey, even Tundra to make it worse) > Top, what do you do? Even if you have a Duress, a CB can come down off their top/Top with you having no ability to interact. It's way more likely that there's a floating CB/Counter in their top 5 than it is a Terminus, so I'd just run in the Goblins for a 2-turn kill (especially for island > Top, obv). Discarding a Terminus/Brainstorm from their hand can be just as good as discarding CB, as you're relegating their outs to their draws off the top, same deal, except you've managed to do the hard part of comboing off already. What better chance do you have on the draw game 1? You have to get lucky either way, may as well ask to just fade 1 particular card off their top/Top as opposed to hoping they have no CB/Clique/counters etc.

It's also worth noting that tying up the Miracle players resources by sending them on a chase to find a Terminus can give you the opportunity to do other things too, like build up a mini-Tendrils or, if everyone is interested in it again, Grapeshot. One of my fondest memories of this deck, in terms of positive variance, is just getting down 4 goblins and beating a Miracles player down while I assembled a mini-Tendrils behind it. It's sort of like that old Starcraft strategy: expand behind your attacks. While they fight off my Goblins, which can potentially win, I set up more disruption/comboes, which can also potentially win. Especially game 1, I dont think I want to wait around, because their late game potentially and inevitability far outshines mine.

TL;DR I don't play TES to keep my Warrens full

[Asthereal]

(a lot of stuff you can read in the post above)
You make fair points. I do really like the good Ad Nauseam that list gives me though. It feels really strong overall. Putting Empty back puts me into a difficult place: what do I cut? Should I keep the Cabal Rits now? Hmm...

On a completely unrelated note: Max, what happened to your Twitch? All your past broadcasts are gone, and I haven't seen a notification of you going live in weeks.

[wonderPreaux]

You make fair points. I do really like the good Ad Nauseam that list gives me though. It feels really strong overall. Putting Empty back puts me into a difficult place: what do I cut? Should I keep the Cabal Rits now? Hmm...

On a completely unrelated note: Max, what happened to your Twitch? All your past broadcasts are gone, and I haven't seen a notification of you going live in weeks.

I don't think the ad nauseam is actually that much better, tbh. For example, when i was running cabal rits over EtW, the other card i cut was Chrome Mox. So, the avg cmc is the same, just distributed over 2 cards, and i have 2 "ok" hits off ad nauseam as opposed to 1 good and 1 bad hit. it's just that the EtW seemed worse overall, so ritual was a fair trade up in power, especially in cruise format where it could easily get threshold and being able to play though daze and do better PiF loops won you the game a lot of the time against delver variants (the important lesson there being that part of the appeal of cabal was totally unrelated to ad nauseam). as for cabal ritual, idk if i wanna be playing them in a format of fast combo and drs right now.

re: twitch, what happened there is that my past broadcasts disappear every two weeks, and I'm only just now finishing up finals which were proceeded by two large projects. I will be streaming this week, though.

[Lemnear]

Could someone point me to the page number (roughly) were people started forgoing rainbow lands completely for the ANT-esque mana base?

Hard question. Summer 2014 for me, I guess. No clue what this means for pages.

[Asthereal]

re: twitch, what happened there is that my past broadcasts disappear every two weeks, and I'm only just now finishing up finals which were proceeded by two large projects. I will be streaming this week, though.
Could you try to stop that from happening? I watch your broadcasts in playback because I usually don't have time when people go live, and when they disappear it's kind of a bummer. :tongue: You should be able to keep them in the list. Joe Lossett also has broadcasts listed that go way back. Or should I say two months back. Maybe it's an option you can select somewhere in your profile.

[wonderPreaux]

Could you try to stop that from happening? I watch your broadcasts in playback because I usually don't have time when people go live, and when they disappear it's kind of a bummer. :tongue: You should be able to keep them in the list. Joe Lossett also has broadcasts listed that go way back. Or should I say two months back. Maybe it's an option you can select somewhere in your profile.

I believe that is an ability he has as a twitch partner, keeping broadcasts up for 2 months. by default, past broadcasts aren't saved at all.

[Ancestral]

I believe that is an ability he has as a twitch partner, keeping broadcasts up for 2 months. by default, past broadcasts aren't saved at all.

what´s your name on twitch ? and what time you usally stream?

[wonderPreaux]

what´s your name on twitch ? and what time you usally stream?

same name as here. though, you oughtta PM me about thus sort of thing, it clutters the thread otherwise.

has anyone gotten to testing with Grapeshot yet? idk how much removal you want to be packing, between decays, snare, pyro/massacre/grapeshot, it feels like we have an awful lot just for midrange/aggro, which i feel like we should be able to race

[Lemnear]

same name as here. though, you oughtta PM me about thus sort of thing, it clutters the thread otherwise.

has anyone gotten to testing with Grapeshot yet? idk how much removal you want to be packing, between decays, snare, pyro/massacre/grapeshot, it feels like we have an awful lot just for midrange/aggro, which i feel like we should be able to race

The main problem is that all those options to remove annoying permanents harm your mana-development (colorwise) and/or expose you to various Landdestruction (Stifle, Wasteland, Port, etc.) at the same time. It goes that far, that I don't even consider the red sweepers like Pyroclasm to be fitting alongside Basic lands, the reason why I was/am desperately looking for decent solutions in black/blue. Hell, even Marsh Casulties looked appealing for a certain time lol

[Bryant Cook]

I think there's a real failure with how people understand the functionality of these sideboard slots. If you're siding in Grapeshot, Void Snare, Pyroclasm and Thoughtseize you're not siding in Bayou and Abrupt Decay. I rarely side in Decay unless it's against Miracles or some sort of Chalice/Prison type deck. I prefer the first selection of cards against decks like Maverick or Death and Taxes because it's not as taxing on our manabase.

As for Peter's comments, I disagree completely. I've been on the basics for a while now and very, very rarely have color issues - honestly, I can only think of a single scenario in the last few months and I play quite a bit. Siding in Pyroclasm and Grapeshot do not effect the manabase, fetching for Volcanic, even if it does get wasted leaves you with over 11-13 initial red mana sources still in the deck.

[wonderPreaux]

I think there's a real failure with how people understand the functionality of these sideboard slots. If you're siding in Grapeshot, Void Snare, Pyroclasm and Thoughtseize you're not siding in Bayou and Abrupt Decay. I rarely side in Decay unless it's against Miracles or some sort of Chalice/Prison type deck. I prefer the first selection of cards against decks like Maverick or Death and Taxes because it's not as taxing on our manabase.

As for Peter's comments, I disagree completely. I've been on the basics for a while now and very, very rarely have color issues - honestly, I can only think of a single scenario in the last few months and I play quite a bit. Siding in Pyroclasm and Grapeshot do not effect the manabase, fetching for Volcanic, even if it does get wasted leaves you with over 11-13 initial red mana sources still in the deck.

I remember that Timo guy who ran TNT packing a bunch of Inquisition of Kozileks in his board, they hit creatures and also allowed him extra discard in control matchups. We could do some sort of setup of Thoughtseize + IoKs + Void Snare + Grapeshot for people who are really concerned over their manabase. (Obligatory plug about how Engineered Explosives wipes out Hatebears other than Teeg and does it all off basics...)

Has anyone noticed a significant gain or loss from playing 4 Tutor main and 2 C. Mox main? I hadn't gotten around to testing it yet, but I'm thinking of trying to free up a sb slot.

[Lemnear]

I think there's a real failure with how people understand the functionality of these sideboard slots. If you're siding in Grapeshot, Void Snare, Pyroclasm and Thoughtseize you're not siding in Bayou and Abrupt Decay. I rarely side in Decay unless it's against Miracles or some sort of Chalice/Prison type deck. I prefer the first selection of cards against decks like Maverick or Death and Taxes because it's not as taxing on our manabase.

As for Peter's comments, I disagree completely. I've been on the basics for a while now and very, very rarely have color issues - honestly, I can only think of a single scenario in the last few months and I play quite a bit. Siding in Pyroclasm and Grapeshot do not effect the manabase, fetching for Volcanic, even if it does get wasted leaves you with over 11-13 initial red mana sources still in the deck.

i doubt anyone is mixing Pyroclasm and Decay for postboard games. It's all about getting to 3 IMS (and likely a volcanic among them) to just cast a pyroclasm against Thalia/Wasteland/Port. On paper, this reads soooo bad compared to Massacre, Dread of Night or even Disfigure that I really begin to wonder if spot-removal (preferable black ones) would not do the trick as well at the current metagame state and density of hatebears, especially paired with a rough sweeper like Massacre in the board in case stuff piles up (like Thalia + Canonist/Mother of Runes)

[Bryant Cook]

I remember that Timo guy who ran TNT packing a bunch of Inquisition of Kozileks in his board, they hit creatures and also allowed him extra discard in control matchups. We could do some sort of setup of Thoughtseize + IoKs + Void Snare + Grapeshot for people who are really concerned over their manabase. (Obligatory plug about how Engineered Explosives wipes out Hatebears other than Teeg and does it all off basics...)

Has anyone noticed a significant gain or loss from playing 4 Tutor main and 2 C. Mox main? I hadn't gotten around to testing it yet, but I'm thinking of trying to free up a sb slot.

You could easily run Inquisitions, we did it originally back when Thalia came into power. The problem was a top decked Canonist or Thalia often ended the game. The benefit to Pyroclasm/Void Snare/Grapeshot is to deal with a creature that slipped through Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy. I'm not worried about the manabase at all, I like it for the most part, just wish there was room for Bayou in the main deck (I don't want to turn this into another discussion).


i doubt anyone is mixing Pyroclasm and Decay for postboard games. It's all about getting to 3 IMS (and likely a volcanic among them) to just cast a pyroclasm against Thalia/Wasteland/Port. On paper, this reads soooo bad compared to Massacre, Dread of Night or even Disfigure that I really begin to wonder if spot-removal (preferable black ones) would not do the trick as well at the current metagame state and density of hatebears, especially paired with a rough sweeper like Massacre in the board in case stuff piles up (like Thalia + Canonist/Mother of Runes)

I don't see why 3 IMS is so difficult, it happens more often than one would think. We play 13 lands, 12 cantrips and then artifact mana if need be. Honestly, I believe you're turning a non-issue into one. Hell, there's even games where we flood from time to time.

[wonderPreaux]

You could easily run Inquisitions, we did it originally back when Thalia came into power. The problem was a top decked Canonist or Thalia often ended the game. The benefit to Pyroclasm/Void Snare/Grapeshot is to deal with a creature that slipped through Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy. I'm not worried about the manabase at all, I like it for the most part, just wish there was room for Bayou in the main deck (I don't want to turn this into another discussion).

With Massacre gone, I feel like the value of the basic Swamp diminishes slightly. Do you think you could get away with basic Island + Bayou with 4 duals and 7 fetches? 4 Misty + 3 Delta even fetches every land

[Bryant Cook]

I want to cut Massacre but am not doing so, it's likely too important as a safety net even though it's rarely used. Even if Massacre was cut, I would still keep swamp - it's essentially indestructible and serves use outside of Massacre.

[Pelikanudo]

I remember that Timo guy who ran TNT packing a bunch of Inquisition of Kozileks in his board, they hit creatures and also allowed him extra discard in control matchups. We could do some sort of setup of Thoughtseize + IoKs + Void Snare + Grapeshot for people who are really concerned over their manabase. (Obligatory plug about how Engineered Explosives wipes out Hatebears other than Teeg and does it all off basics...)

Has anyone noticed a significant gain or loss from playing 4 Tutor main and 2 C. Mox main? I hadn't gotten around to testing it yet, but I'm thinking of trying to free up a sb slot.

Yeah that is me...
I still believe that as example it is a better approach to run more discard vs Renimator than other options (like Xantids) which dilutes the original strategy of TNT which is just discard and win.
Related to D&T well the problem still is the same - as mentioned - a topdecked hatebear.
I haven't noticed that life lost - never will go under 3 C.Moxen...

Apart:
Since I started to play massacre I haven't used it yet, maybe because there is no many D&T by here, I definately cut it for a more polivalent card like pyroclasm and see what happens... I made this change because I encountered a MUD Red match up that I loose becase of this...
I don't plan to bring G.S. to my side as I still don't find any need...

Apart the other day I tested the Grim Tutor in side and again I put D.R. out.... I just will go back to D.R. in side again...: really nothing new...
I found a scenario vs a Land Pox build in which I lost a Round for not having it as I have 9 mana and burning wish - sure this scenario would have been solved having I.T in side but vs so much discard I prefer keeping all threats in base and also wanted to evaluate that shitty G.Tutor...

I wanted to expose my build:

//NAME: TES
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox

4 Gemstone Mine
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta

//Sideboard
SB: 1 bayou
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 duress
SB: 1 pyroclasm
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 3 Xantid
SB: 1 Void snare

Well I believe it is perfect, and now I am finding that I want to include bribery in side but I really don't find room for it... in the last tounaments I really haven't faced so much miracles, but I really don't want to loose vs this archetype...
The other day I made 3-2 in a tournament loosing unbiquely vs Reanimator (I had really bad luck in 1st game and was evaluating if having bribery in side could have save my ass - it in deed had saved my ass) and that Lands Pox build - (I won 1st game and lost the other 2 the second because of 1Sphere of resistence in 1st turn and the 3rd game for not having D.R. in side OR not sided out I.T.)

Well defniately my unique problem is :
I want to make room for bribery but there isn't really anything I want to take out from anything...
so:
- I thought on taking out 3rd duress from base and putting in the bayou. and take 2 gemstones for 2 more fetches...
- take out 1 decay.... really don't want as I'm happy to see 4 vs miracles my lovely and hated deck....
- I really don't find more options...

Opinions?

Edit: Changed to Poll. Delta

[Lemnear]

Cut DimRet or Duress ... pretty easy if you ask me.

P.S.: how is 9 mana and Wish a problem depending on the turn? EtW or PIF (flashback cantrips) should do the trick even without IT/Grim/DimRet in the board. He has two turns to hit tabernacle somehow (of he even runs it because the card is fucking expensive and sees only fringe play)

[Tourach]

@Pelikanudo: None of your fetches can grab the Bayou. Why don't you run Delta?

[Pelikanudo]

Cut DimRet or Duress ... pretty easy if you ask me.

P.S.: how is 9 mana and Wish a problem depending on the turn? EtW or PIF (flashback cantrips) should do the trick even without IT/Grim/DimRet in the board. He has two turns to hit tabernacle somehow (of he even runs it because the card is fucking expensive and sees only fringe play)

Well,

the last 2 match ups I lately lost was vs:
- Pox Lands - note in here opp plays that instant that put lands in play....
- Pox Mono Black

Both of these match ups I won 1st game - no roblem in here with EtW BUT the theory is that is not the best thing yiou can do specially vs Pox Lands
vs Pox lands was because of EtW setting 8 bobs - ok.
vs Pox Mono Black I remember how the game developed and was as folows:
I played 6 gobs not investing too many resources on them - they were destroyed by the single tabernacle at pendrell vale, but I won the game with A.N fnally

The match ups I lost were because:
a 1st turn Sphere of resistance followed by a second S.O,Resstance
Duress hymn and Ratched bomb
not beeing able to cast D.R. as I didn't have it in my side.

there is a fact and it is that for 2nd and 3rd games these archetypes are well prepared for EtW (Ratched bomb or tabernacle or E. Plague or even Ernsring bridge)
so my conclusion is:
- let I.T. in side to beeing able to cast it with 9 mana
- Play D.R.
I think that the 2nd option is the correct one as vs these archetypes I want the most chances to have a threat in my hand or to draw it just because if game passes the 2nd turn you'll be in a position in which you need to maximice the mana to the fullest to play your threats AND EtW is not a solution for the 2nd and 3rd games - yeah my opp. also adapted to me...
Also PiF really is not an option for these archetypes or at least when I played vs these archetytpes I didnt find a way in which PiF had saved my ass...

Related to the bribery, I find it great for reanimator and S&T and when played it some time agon it shined as it is even better than A.N...:
- I dont want either to put I.T. in side vs this archtypes.
- I wan to be as fast as posiible, and bribery allows me this.

What I have found is that D.R. can also acomplishes this role as I usually trend to play 3 xantids and it is still a valid option... but for sure not as good as bribery...
- for example vs reanimator if you have a xantid D.R. is jus great.

call me crazy, but I've been thinking in going back to 2 CoB mana base to play 2 silence 1 duress and play only 2 xantids in my side... and then I'll have my so desired slot for my bribery...

@Tourach: - Corrected.

[Lemnear]

i have no clue why you conclude to run CoB and Silence MB in order to preplace the SB Duress with Bribery.