[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Pelikanudo]

i have no clue why you conclude to run CoB and Silence MB in order to preplace the SB Duress with Bribery.

well, I use quite frequently that Duress in the side as B.W. target.

a more detailed explanation:

I want to use 7 disrupion spells and want total 3 or 4 anti senseis effects or anti leyline effects - therefore if I include 1 or 2 silence and use 2 xantids I will stay in 12 lands 1 bayou side and save 1 xantid slot having totaql 2 xantid 2 silence for leyline and miracles match ups.

[Lemnear]

well, I use quite frequently that Duress in the side as B.W. target.

a more detailed explanation:

I want to use 7 disrupion spells and want total 3 or 4 anti senseis effects or anti leyline effects - therefore if I include 1 or 2 silence and use 2 xantids I will stay in 12 lands 1 bayou side and save 1 xantid slot having totaql 2 xantid 2 silence for leyline and miracles match ups.

this does in no way explain why 7 discard main and 3 xantid in the sideboard doesn't make sense for you. A sincere advice is cutting the SB discard which only has value as a replacement for EtW in the storm mirror, due to the fact that if your opponent seriously lets Wish resolve with all the bombs you have in the sideboard, it's pretty damn likely that your opponent doesn't have defense at all and you are able to punish him immediately instead of using three mana total just to see that your opponent has nothing. Bummer. I was bigoted to the SB discard for a pretty long time myself until I realized that pushing for PIF and EtW wielded much more value for putting my opponents into the reactive position.

I'd like to give you an example: Your opponent has FoW in hand which you know about and he lets Wish turn two resolve for whatever reason. If you grab EtW here, he has a tough time to cut you off from 4 mana to just dump the Goblins and push into the red zone with him/her required to find an answer. You lose nothing here as natural EtWs are pretty economic if you feed them with cantrips like Probes and Artifact drops and you can build a finishing Tendrils behind the "red wall" if your opponent is able to answer them. Compare this to fetching a Duress; all you do is trading 1-for-1 and you have created no further trouble for your opponent.

Essentially this is the same plan the old Grim Long and Long Death were executing in Vintage at their time: Throw bombs till your opponent is unable to answer/counter them

[MotleyJu]

A couple more general questions for folks about sideboarding strategy. First, when/why do you bring in cards like Pyroclasm or Void Snare out of the board, rather than just leaving them there as Wish targets? I rarely find myself bringing them in out of the sideboard, but saw people talking about doing so. The one case I can see where it's good is against possible Meddling Mage - is it worth siding in Pyroclasm there so you're not as screwed to Mage naming Burning Wish? Are Mage matchups good for Abrupt Decay (because of uncounterable), or do our other answers get the job done against Mage?

[Lemnear]

A couple more general questions for folks about sideboarding strategy. First, when/why do you bring in cards like Pyroclasm or Void Snare out of the board, rather than just leaving them there as Wish targets? I rarely find myself bringing them in out of the sideboard, but saw people talking about doing so. The one case I can see where it's good is against possible Meddling Mage - is it worth siding in Pyroclasm there so you're not as screwed to Mage naming Burning Wish? Are Mage matchups good for Abrupt Decay (because of uncounterable), or do our other answers get the job done against Mage?

You board Snare and clasm against Hatebear.dec; you don't board Decays against decks running wasteland even if they have Meddling Mage

[Arguru]

Another tournament with TES,another top 8!46 ppl this time,so 6 rd+top 8

Turn 1:reanimator(2:0)

Turn 2:shardless bug(2:1)
Lost g2 because of a topdecked fow

Turn 3:jeskay blade(2:0)

Turn 4:omnitell(0:2)
Really bad draws here

Turn 5:omnitell(2:0)
I had my revenge

Turn 6:BUG delver(ID)

Top 8:jeskay blade(the same ad turn 3 0:2)

G1 I'm on the play so i tried a turn 1 ad nauseam,he had fow
G2 he saw everithing:mm,vendilion,force,flusterstorm,snapcaster,ee...and i kept a risky hand...

About the list:

4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal tutor
1 Empty the warrens

4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lion's eye diamond
2 chrome mox
4 Lotus petal

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe

4 cabal therapy
3 duress

1 ad nauseam

2 volcanic island
2 underground sea
1 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire

//SIDE

1 bayou
3 abrupt decay
3 xantid swarm
1 massacre
1 thoughtseize
1 void snare
1 pyroclasm
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames
1 Tendrils of agony
1 grapeshot


I think i'll try to cut the chrome mox...i know they make your ad nauseam better,but they are really bad in your hand...there have been situation where I wanted infernal in my sb...and once again,i never used massacre...also i wanted another fetchland in my main all the tournament...so i want to try these changes:
Main
-2 chrome mox -1 infernal
+1 misty rainforest +2 cabal ritual
Side
-1 massacre/grapeshot +1 infernal

Opinions?

[Lemnear]

Tuned in for Max' stream yesterday as I luckily checked my eMail and saw a note from Twitch that he started to stream. Was pretty fun and I apologize for leaving that early (well, it was midnight here) and before Chris was back from dinner. Only thing that killed me was the 40sec delay between the chat and the messages popping up on Max' screen, so all suggestions and stuff rolled in far too late.

In fact I was cursing at several times on the couch with my tablet on my lap, earning me slaps to the back of my head by my GF followed by "Shhhhh! I want to watch Princess Mononoke". :(

should do this again ... sans the slaps

[Alix444]

This might be a newbie question, but when your opening hand has a chrome mox in it, it is basically a 6 card hand in most situations right?

Is it correct to say that it's only in the deck to create better ADs? Or am I thinking about this wrong?

Thanks,

[Lemnear]

This might be a newbie question, but when your opening hand has a chrome mox in it, it is basically a 6 card hand in most situations right?

Is it correct to say that it's only in the deck to create better ADs? Or am I thinking about this wrong?

Thanks,

Create initial mana post Ad Nauseam; create quick mana to cast AN/EtW T1/2; remove cards in your hand which block hellbent; etc.

[Asthereal]

I think i'll try to cut the chrome mox...i know they make your ad nauseam better,but they are really bad in your hand...there have been situation where I wanted infernal in my sb...and once again,i never used massacre...also i wanted another fetchland in my main all the tournament...so i want to try these changes:
Main
-2 chrome mox -1 infernal
+1 misty rainforest +2 cabal ritual
Side
-1 massacre/grapeshot +1 infernal

Opinions?
The only alternatives are Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual. Both have serious disadvantages. I tried a list with 3x Simian Spirit Guide and no Moxen, and it did work -sort of-, but Ad Nauseams did get quite bad, and that proved a problem on multiple occasions. I fear Chrome Mox is a necessary evil, at least as a two-of.

@Max: I didn't consider Lossett's past broadcasts as a Twitch partner privilege. That could indeed be the case.
Maybe I just have to be faster if I want to check out your stream. :wink:

[Arguru]

After a bit of testing I concluded that cutting chrome mox was a really bad idea;but I still want the 8th fetchland,so I return to the 8 fetch 2 sea 2 volcanic 1 Bayou manabase.
In this meta basics are not necessary imho,there aren't many wasteland-stifle decks...in this way I also gain a sb slot...

[d0nkey]

After a bit of testing I concluded that cutting chrome mox was a really bad idea;but I still want the 8th fetchland,so I return to the 8 fetch 2 sea 2 volcanic 1 Bayou manabase.
In this meta basics are not necessary imho,there aren't many wasteland-stifle decks...in this way I also gain a sb slot...

For what it's worth, I am down to 2 chrome mox. But I probably flip flop on this slot too much. 3 seems like too many for me, and 1 doesn't seem like enough. Yet even with 2 sometimes I have to roll my eyes when I open with both of them. Variance doesn't care about what I want.

[Bryant Cook]

The invitational is almost here, I've updated the OP with the list I'll be playing.

[wonderPreaux]

The invitational is almost here, I've updated the OP with the list I'll be playing.

I think I asked this before, but what drove you to the 3 Mires over the 1-2 misty/mire split from before? you mentioned earlier that you value basic swamp fairly highly, could you expand on that somewhat?

[Bryant Cook]

I think I asked this before, but what drove you to the 3 Mires over the 1-2 misty/mire split from before? you mentioned earlier that you value basic swamp fairly highly, could you expand on that somewhat?

With only 8 Spells in the deck that actually require blue mana, the Island isn't nearly as desirable as the Swamp which gets tapped multiple times and is a combo colored mana. I've considered in the past not even running the Island, but keeping the Swamp (In order to move Bayou to the main).

[wonderPreaux]

With only 8 Spells in the deck that actually require blue mana, the Island isn't nearly as desirable as the Swamp which gets tapped multiple times and is a combo colored mana. I've considered in the past not even running the Island, but keeping the Swamp (In order to move Bayou to the main).

Do you think only having 11 blue sources would bring down the number of keepable hands too much, though?

[Alix444]

Going from 12 to 11 will increase the chance you don’t have a blue source by 3.177%, not counting mox or petal. We should also keep in mind that some hands don’t need any T1 Blue, or T2 for that matter.

[Bryant Cook]

Do you think only having 11 blue sources would bring down the number of keepable hands too much, though?

Thats part of the reason I'm running the Island, the other being that it's Wasteland proof. Honestly, the amount of games where you would open up one land:Island where it's keepable versus one land:Bayou where it's unkeepable is an incredibly small percentage.

[Alix444]

The question is, is an extra sideboard slot worth having to mulligan an extra once in 35-40 matches?

[Bryant Cook]

The question is, is an extra sideboard slot worth having to mulligan an extra once in 35-40 matches?

If this were a vacuum, then your question would make sense. But Island being essentially indestructible has been fairly key in some match-ups like RUG Delver or Death in Taxes.

Honestly, if I were to move the Bayou main, I don't even know what I would add as Needle and Surgical are currently weak in the metagame. You have to look at what you're really gaining compared to what you're losing.

[Pelikanudo]

this does in no way explain why 7 discard main and 3 xantid in the sideboard doesn't make sense for you. A sincere advice is cutting the SB discard which only has value as a replacement for EtW in the storm mirror, due to the fact that if your opponent seriously lets Wish resolve with all the bombs you have in the sideboard, it's pretty damn likely that your opponent doesn't have defense at all and you are able to punish him immediately instead of using three mana total just to see that your opponent has nothing. Bummer. I was bigoted to the SB discard for a pretty long time myself until I realized that pushing for PIF and EtW wielded much more value for putting my opponents into the reactive position.

I'd like to give you an example: Your opponent has FoW in hand which you know about and he lets Wish turn two resolve for whatever reason. If you grab EtW here, he has a tough time to cut you off from 4 mana to just dump the Goblins and push into the red zone with him/her required to find an answer. You lose nothing here as natural EtWs are pretty economic if you feed them with cantrips like Probes and Artifact drops and you can build a finishing Tendrils behind the "red wall" if your opponent is able to answer them. Compare this to fetching a Duress; all you do is trading 1-for-1 and you have created no further trouble for your opponent.

Essentially this is the same plan the old Grim Long and Long Death were executing in Vintage at their time: Throw bombs till your opponent is unable to answer/counter them

Well, I usually take the bombs with burning wish when I'm going to combo this occurs the most of the times and involves investing several resources for this purpose. Even cards like LED means you will invest all resources on it. this is a great difference between Grim Long and TES - the use of permanent accelerators (moxen, etc) and the use of LEDS and Petals.

On the other hand if the opp. plays well usually lets B.Wish resolve as usually this does not represent a threat for him - maybe it is on 1st game, but this game is not the game I want to handle - I want to handle better 2nd and 3rd games.

for sure if the unique card left is B.W. with ton of mana , Opp. will not let it resolve if he has FoW.

I believe that the unique card that allowed us to acomplish such role was T.Cruise, and maybe EtW for 1st games, but not PiF or D.R.or I.T.
There is a fact and it is that if Opp. has Fluster and FoW and if he plays well he will not counter B.W. (in here I remember that Bryant - vs Miracles match up in which that player countered that B.W. when he shouldn't)

Another point is that I've been hating playing 2 volcanics and after some testing I'm happy to returning to silences list which also potentiates my D.R.!
In old era lots of times I finished winning my BUGs opponents via D.R.!

Anyway after some torunaments with this configuration I'll try what you say as also makes sense.

@CabalTherapy:
Well me for example long time ago I use my own TES, maybe I take some opinions from Lem, bahamut or Final Fortune, I would love if by here all will agree but from my perspective, since I started to see such changes like basics - even 2!! and 2 Chrome moxen I just cannot agree with Bryant even if he is the creator of the deck, hell be here there are also physicists and mathematicians whose opinions can have much more value or me than Bryant's!

I think everybody needs to have its own opinion that can be or not the same than others. I think the important thing is to use valid arguments, for example, for me playing TES in such a manner doesn't make sense, I think the current build is just worse than TNT or ANT and its strategy is diluting more and more - for me it is simple if you want to have a better late game just play a different deck which consists at its simplest in more basics, less moxen and more C.Rituals, thats all.

using basics in TES for the unique goal to avoid wasteland is absurd, wasteland existed long time ago and for TES it has not been an issue - did RUG exist 2-1 years ago? - yes, This is a misconception of strategy. I think TES want to handle wasteland the same way as ANT and this is just an error - just play ANT.

Question yourself - Why Bryant never has brought ANT to a tournament? - you know the reason.

as said , just an opinion.

@Question to Bryant:
Bryant, you've been playing TES for so long, why the hell you have never brought ANT to a tournament? it is just curiosity, although I can imagine the reason.

[Lemnear]

Why should you let your opponent know that you have plenty of mana available before you cast Wish if you know your opponent has a FoW? It's all about the mindgame to let him think he has to counter the Wish if you just use it as bait and make your opponent letting Wish resolve just because he thinks your reaching for your SB out of desperation or because he's convinced he can counteract your move for PIF/EtW. You have to use the information you deliver to your opponent for your own advantage. Misinformation is your keyword and without overcommitting you can, in fact, mimic the Grim Long gameplan of grinding your opponent out with threats.

I have a recurring problem to understand your lines of thought. How does a dislike for 2 Volcanics lead to playing Silences other than your undying love for DimRet?

[Bryant Cook]

Played the list I suggested last week at the Invitational, my rounds went as follows:

2-0 Death & Taxes – Two games in a row I put 14 Goblins into play on turn 1.
2-1 Miracles (Michael Majors) – Game one I had a weird situation where I could only make 12 red mana post Ad Nauseam. Played Wish, Played Wish, Empty the Warrens and Grapeshotted him down to 2 so that if he fetched he couldnt Force or shuffle the rest of the game. He didnt find Terminus. Third game, I resolved Ad Nauseam with a counterbalance on the table (one on top), played Decay after and won.
2-0 BUG Delver – Grindy game one where I got him with Past in Flames. Second game it’s turn two, he plays Deathrite holding up a mana. I lay a second land and fetch, he stifles and I play Petal, Ritual, Ritual and Ad Nauseam.
2-0 Reanimator - I mulligan to five, he plays turn one Careful Study. I draw a second Brainstorm, Petal, Brainstorm. Fetch (search for sea), LED, LED, Petal, Brainstorm breaking the two LEDs for RRRBBB and draw Infernal Tutor. Ad Nauseam with the final mana from Petal. The second game I have Xantid and a turn 3 with hand disruption.

(second set of Legacy Rounds)

2-1 BUG Delver (Jim Davis) – Empty the Warrens for 14 against two Tarmogoyfs and a Deathrite, in order to win I had to give him a window where if he draws Decay he wins. He doesnt. Game two, I go to kill him with 1 card in hand and it was the card he drew for turn, it was Stifle. Third game, he mulligans to 4 and I make 18 Goblins on turn 1.
2-0 Reanimator - ETW + Tendrils to finish him off in the first game. The second game is a classic turn one Duress, turn two Ad Nauseam.
0-2 Dredge - He goldfishes me game one. Game two I mulligan to four looking for anything fast. My four is Ritual, Petal, LED, Mire. I play out what I can and pass. My opponent Therapies me, stares at me and says “Dark Ritual”. Couldn’t believe it.
0-2 Dark Maverick - I lose game one to a Thalia on turn two after he leaves up Wasteland turn one. I had an opportunity to Massacre but then Gaddock Teeg came down. Awkward. Game two I mulligan to five on the play, make 12 Goblins which isn’t enough to win through Deathrite Shaman into Stoneforge Mystic.


(6-2 in the Legacy portion of the Invi)

Legacy IQ

2-1 UR Delver - Game one, thought he was on Burn. Made 14 goblins turn one and won. Game two, I sided in hate for Eideleon which wouldve been better as the Duresses I sided out. Third game, I had so much mana (4 Rite of Flames - fourth with a tutor) that I was able to power through a Flusterstorm and make an Emtpy for 16.
0-2 Death & Taxes - The classic Wasteland into Thalia gets me game one. Game two he has a Aether Vial in play with a Revoker, SFM and another hate creature (Cant remember). I void Snare his Vial so that I can Massacre and win. He slides in Cannonist, I attempt to Massacre. I have always been under the assumption that you could still cast one spell after Cannonist as it’s what checks to see if a spell had been cast. Incorrect, I guess it changes the rules of the game and you cannot. I couldve done this a turn earlier but wouldve had to have drawn a Dark Ritual or LED to make up for the mana loss. Because of this I lose.
2-0 Miracles - I don’t remember much other than both games were a slaughter of discard backed by Ad Nauseam.
2-0 UR Delver - I get him to Force of Will a bait spell and then Ad Nauseam. Second game, he plays a Delver on turn one and I play 14 Goblins.
2-1 Shardless - I shred his hand game one and win through two Deathrites with natural storm. Second game I go for a turn three win after two discard spells leaving him with 2 Visions and a blank, the blank was the second Force of Will. Third game, it was a grindy game where PIF got there.
0-2 Lands - I knew my opponent and he traditionally plays Elves, I knew he played lands at the invi but did awful with it. Wasnt sure what he was on. He mulligans to five and plays Forest, go. I tank, the best thing my hand can do is make 14 Goblins because I have wish. He end step puts Tabernacle into play. Awkward. The second game was a long one with a Decay, Wish for Snare and as I’m about to win, I draw the Ad Nauseam for the turn. I need a turn to Brainstorm it back, he crop rotations on my end step to kill me.
2-0 ANT - Both games were funny enough to be won on the back of Cabal Therapy and Goblins. Discard wars with no top decked tutors on his part.
1-2 Lands - I easily win game one with Ad Nauseam. Game two, I come across an awkward situation where if I sided out an Infernal I wouldve won but instead I have to try to win with Past in Flames or Goblins. I go for PIF, he has the Crop Rotation. Third game, I mulligan to five and all my hand can do is make 12 Goblins. I Probe him and can see he has a rotation already, I tank on if it’s worth it. He has a Wasteland and a Loam too. If I had more mana I could now Wish. Infernal. Ad Nauseam but I’m two short. Looking at the gentleman, he didnt seem to be too well off financially based on appearance. I took a stab at thinking he likely didn’t own a Tabernacle and went for it, I was wrong.

Some thoughts on the weekend, I feel like I had some rough breaks in a few match-ups. List felt okay, but I definitely noticed a lack of Chain of Vapor hurting me, Surgical would’ve been good as well. I talked with Royce and settled on the list below:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

Cutting a discard spell from the main is hardly noticeable when we have one in the sideboard to wish for, the extra land in theory takes away some of the threat of Daze in those situations anyway. I’d like to find room for Surgical as there seemed to be a lot of Reanimator, lands (Its just okay here - not sure if it’s even worth siding) and Dredge (wouldve had to play it twice if there wasn’t a repair) there, but the only way I think we could is if we shaved a Xantid (which is good in that match-up anyway, Surgical isnt good versus Omni or Sneak) and then Massacre. This causes me to think the list above may be better.

[Lemnear]

Though with me being on a current MTG sabbatical till the next expansion hitting the stores, I'm baffled that you opt to chop the 4th Therapy but also adding a land (you were pointing me at hellbent problems in the past in regards to running more lands).

I see losses to D&T and Lands, matchups where the Basics were considered a help, but did not end up turning the games in your favor. I'm interrested why the stable mana either wasn't a factor or not an option in these matches, because the conclusion I draw from the read is that "more lands" work better than "Basics" in regards to fighting mana issues caused by opposing gameplans, an idea I discussed a while back.

[Bryant Cook]

Though with me being on a current MTG sabbatical till the next expansion hitting the stores, I'm baffled that you opt to chop the 4th Therapy but also adding a land (you were pointing me at hellbent problems in the past in regards to running more lands).

I see losses to D&T and Lands, matchups where the Basics were considered a help, but did not end up turning the games in your favor. I'm interrested why the stable mana either wasn't a factor or not an option in these matches, because the conclusion I draw from the read is that "more lands" work better than "Basics" in regards to fighting mana issues caused by opposing gameplans, an idea I discussed a while back.

I actually beat ANT one of the games because he couldn't become Hellbent. I don't think adding additional lands into the deck is any sort of benefit, what I'm looking at it as is an opportunity to create more slots in the sideboard. As of right now, I think the deck has very few flexible slots with one of them being the 7th discard spell. If I end up putting the discard spell back in, the one from the sideboard will be leaving. That said, I'm open to other suggestions. I understand that you dislike the basics, but they were great against: Lands, Death and Taxes, BUG Delver and Dark Maverick. I'm not looking to cut them anytime soon.

If the 7th discard spell isn't the slot worth shaving we're looking at:

2nd Chrome Mox - Which will make our Ad Nauseam considerably worse.
4th Infernal Tutor - Moving it to the sideboard, which doesn't actually free up a slot.
Empty the Warrens - Which was great all weekend.
7th fetchland - I don't know if six is too few with 13 lands?
2nd Underground Sea - is the second Sea important when there's a basic Swamp & Bayou left?

Alternatively, you could reconfigure the manabase to the Bayou/Badlands over one second copy of the other two duals.

[Pelikanudo]

Why should you let your opponent know that you have plenty of mana available before you cast Wish if you know your opponent has a FoW? It's all about the mindgame to let him think he has to counter the Wish if you just use it as bait and make your opponent letting Wish resolve just because he thinks your reaching for your SB out of desperation or because he's convinced he can counteract your move for PIF/EtW. You have to use the information you deliver to your opponent for your own advantage. Misinformation is your keyword and without overcommitting you can, in fact, mimic the Grim Long gameplan of grinding your opponent out with threats.

I have a recurring problem to understand your lines of thought. How does a dislike for 2 Volcanics lead to playing Silences other than your undying love for DimRet?

I.m not sure if I understand you well as my English is not as good...

I.ve always hated such a non polivalent land in TES, on one hand.
now That I.m going to try again going back to 2 silence a total of 10 All Colours producers seems okay to me

Well nice to see that Bryant had the same problems vs lands than me!
At least mines now in theory are solved.

Apart, I also disagree on 14 lands 2 C.M. For the same reasons Lem mentions, (lots of the match ups Bryant played seems that 3rd C.M. would have helped because of speed) but I.ve also evaluating taking out 1 disruption spell in order to put bayou main, more fetches and save that so desired side slot


EDIT HAVE you found any good card for TES in that new expansion Lem?

[Lemnear]

I.m not sure if I understand you well as my English is not as good...

I.ve always hated such a non polivalent land in TES, on one hand.
now That I.m going to try again going back to 2 silence a total of 10 All Colours producers seems okay to me

Well nice to see that Bryant had the same problems vs lands than me!
At least mines now in theory are solved.

Apart, I also disagree on 14 lands 2 C.M. For the same reasons Lem mentions, (lots of the match ups Bryant played seems that 3rd C.M. would have helped because of speed) but I.ve also evaluating taking out 1 disruption spell in order to put bayou main, more fetches and save that so desired side slot


EDIT HAVE you found any good card for TES in that new expansion Lem?

Looks like you did not ;)

I'm waiting for the last Expansion to hit the Stores before GP Lille (is it Origins?) to pick my deck and before that I'm not bothering much with cardchoices and stuff for at least my part other than pure theory.

The issue of cutting discard these days is the lack of them in early turns against opposing combo, Counterbalance and shit. I was used to run only 6 in the past with the idea of Wishing for a Duress turn 2 to combo turn 3, but it bites your ass here and there. Discard-on-demand without clogging your hand is a nice concept, but not working if Counterbalance/Chalice/Thorn/S&T lock you out turn 2. that's why I was juggling with up to 8 discard spells in the Main at times if I expected a metagame filled with the beforementioned.

[Pelikanudo]

Looks like you did not ;)

The issue of cutting discard these days is the lack of them in early turns against opposing combo, Counterbalance and shit. I was used to run only 6 in the past with the idea of Wishing for a Duress turn 2 to combo turn 3, but it bites your ass here and there. Discard-on-demand without clogging your hand is a nice concept, but not working if Counterbalance/Chalice/Thorn/S&T lock you out turn 2. that's why I was juggling with up to 8 discard spells in the Main at times if I expected a metagame filled with the beforementioned.

Well, I need to agree...
my 1st games vs c.b. were in deed improved because of having discard instead of Silences, as mentioned, I will test this configuration and see what happens...

I.ve also seen the resurgence of Rug by here

[Star|Scream]

Hi,

Since I've never really played this deck in paper before I have some logistics questions.
Excuse me if they are dumb.

When using pad or paper have you found a really good system to keep storm and mana accurate?
I tried BBBRRR but it gets really cluttered. Any good grids people use? This would
really help since I'm so visual and my handwriting is terrible.

Can you use different sleeves for sideboard sorceries that you would never board in to
keep you from accidentally shuffling them into your deck for the next game/match?

If you make 18 goblins do you actually put 18 goblin token cards onto the battlefield or
use a representation?

When revealing to Ad Nauseam it seems it would be easier for everyone to just verbally count down
rather than writing each life change, and since you haven't passed priority, I assume it's perfectly
legal. Is this how you do it or do you notate each card you flip and your current life total?

Thanks in advance.

[Lemnear]

Hi,

Since I've never really played this deck in paper before I have some logistics questions.
Excuse me if they are dumb.

When using pad or paper have you found a really good system to keep storm and mana accurate?
I tried BBBRRR but it gets really cluttered. Any good grids people use? This would
really help since I'm so visual and my handwriting is terrible.


I write down:
:1: - SR (Schwarzer Ritus aka Dark Ritual) - BBB
:2: - Z (Zwang aka Duress) - BB
:3: - Auge (aka LED) - BB
etc.

so no one gets confused which and how many spells got cast. Mind, I take notes in german as notepads are public info.

Can you use different sleeves for sideboard sorceries that you would never board in to
keep you from accidentally shuffling them into your deck for the next game/match?


doubt this is even legal. I usually shuffle more cards in than I want to board anyways just to not let my opponents know how many cards I boarded as I remove the cards again quickly after and take obvious cards like Decays/Xantids for that procedure. You should know which cards you run in your SB. If you count your SB before presenting your deck and you have less than 15, you should get that something is fishy ;)

If you make 18 goblins do you actually put 18 goblin token cards onto the battlefield or
use a representation?


I use 2-3 dices. Should do the trick in case of blockers and shit for the 2-3 turns you need them.

When revealing to Ad Nauseam it seems it would be easier for everyone to just verbally count down
rather than writing each life change, and since you haven't passed priority, I assume it's perfectly
legal. Is this how you do it or do you notate each card you flip and your current life total?


do announce your current life after each damaging flip. Make a note on your lifepad with the remaining life once you are about to think about mana or playlines. You can continue counting down any time. Make clear to your opponent what is happening so there is not need to grab the pen after each flip

Thanks in advance.

[Bryant Cook]

Hi,

Since I've never really played this deck in paper before I have some logistics questions.
Excuse me if they are dumb.

When using pad or paper have you found a really good system to keep storm and mana accurate?
I tried BBBRRR but it gets really cluttered. Any good grids people use? This would
really help since I'm so visual and my handwriting is terrible.

Can you use different sleeves for sideboard sorceries that you would never board in to
keep you from accidentally shuffling them into your deck for the next game/match?

If you make 18 goblins do you actually put 18 goblin token cards onto the battlefield or
use a representation?

When revealing to Ad Nauseam it seems it would be easier for everyone to just verbally count down
rather than writing each life change, and since you haven't passed priority, I assume it's perfectly
legal. Is this how you do it or do you notate each card you flip and your current life total?

Thanks in advance.

I don't write anything down unless it ends up being an incredibly convoluted turn, by not writing things down you tend to remember how numbers add up and the lines you can take without giving away lines or cards in hand. For example: Two Rite of Flame is RRRR, Ritual is BBB. Seven mana, minus a Tutor is five. Five floating is Ad Nauseam. It's easy math without providing information.

On top of that, at a higher level players tend to look at your life total paper trying to get information based on what you're playing.

[PartyMonster]

I wrote out a better explanation earlier, but deleted it because I don't feel like people calling my ideas shit. Regardless, I think it's better to throw the idea out there than not.

Just an idea to fit the green source in the main deck with out going up to 14 lands and cutting the 7th discard spell.

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Misty Rainforest / scalding tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp

[Lemnear]

I wrote out a better explanation earlier, but deleted it because I don't feel like people calling my ideas shit. Regardless, I think it's better to throw the idea out there than not.

Just an idea to fit the green source in the main deck with out going up to 14 lands and cutting the 7th discard spell.

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Misty Rainforest / scalding tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp

That stuff would be much better received in general if it was wrapped in ideas behind that lead to this configuration, so I miss the initial Version you said having posted.

A urgent and inevitable question here is, despite the nice U.Sea+Taiga for having access to all 4 colors and Decay, how the Taiga which does absolutely nothing for the MB than delivering a red IMS is any good itself for developing the first 1/2/3 turns of the game or what the point of Island is against Wasteland if you only have 3 Fetchlands to grab it?

[Final Fortune]

I don't know about cutting discard, more and more I've been moving to a 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 1 Swamp manabase and cutting back on the use of Chrome Mox, so I spend a lot of games fetching for Swamp, Duressing, playing a Fetchland, Cabal Therapying and then waiting to crack the Fetchland on T3 in order to go off with 3 lands in play. I really like being able to consistently sit back on discard and buy turns in roughly the same manner ANT does. For that reason I really like 3 Infernal Tutor, 4 Duress MD and I've been experimenting with reducing Chrome Mox to 1 and adding a Simian Spirit Guide or just playing 2 Simian Spirit Guides in order to be certain I always have an accelerant that produces the off color mana to the combo (by off color I mean Red, considering your basic is Swamp and your first Fetchland choice is Underground Sea)

Cutting Cabal Therapy seems a bit strange to me considering how polarized your Burning Wishes are towards Empty the Warrens without Infernal Tutor in your SBs G1.

[Asthereal]

I wrote out a better explanation earlier, but deleted it because I don't feel like people calling my ideas shit. Regardless, I think it's better to throw the idea out there than not.

Just an idea to fit the green source in the main deck with out going up to 14 lands and cutting the 7th discard spell.

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Misty Rainforest / scalding tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
I suggested Taiga earlier and the idea indeed got shot down.

The reasoning for Taiga is simple: we want to be able to cast all stuff we have from two lands AND be able to go off with BR as initial mana from our two lands. A deck with as little lands as TES cannot reliably count on having three lands every game, so there's a good reason to try and have Duals that accommodate both the BR initial mana, and have the ability to cast all cards we have.

The counter argument is also simple: Taiga on its own doesn't help our setup, and it also doesn't cast any main board protection spells. So having it in your opener will almost always be suboptimal, if not hampering your development to a complete standstill. (Love that sentence. :tongue:)

So there you have it.

[Lemnear]

I suggested Taiga earlier and the idea indeed got shot down.

The reasoning for Taiga is simple: we want to be able to cast all stuff we have from two lands AND be able to go off with BR as initial mana from our two lands. A deck with as little lands as TES cannot reliably count on having three lands every game, so there's a good reason to try and have Duals that accommodate both the BR initial mana, and have the ability to cast all cards we have.

The counter argument is also simple: Taiga on its own doesn't help our setup, and it also doesn't cast any main board protection spells. So having it in your opener will almost always be suboptimal, if not hampering your development to a complete standstill. (Love that sentence. :tongue:)

So there you have it.

The point is that Bayou+Volcanic provide also 4 colors like U.Sea+Taiga, but do this with a better split as you are able to cantrip AND cast protection with the obvious lack of supporting Decay. The choice ergo boils down to either being able to cast Decay off two lands (mind, you board Decays only against very slow matchups anyways which let you accumulate IMS') or running a completely dead MB land.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't know about cutting discard, more and more I've been moving to a 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 1 Swamp manabase and cutting back on the use of Chrome Mox, so I spend a lot of games fetching for Swamp, Duressing, playing a Fetchland, Cabal Therapying and then waiting to crack the Fetchland on T3 in order to go off with 3 lands in play. I really like being able to consistently sit back on discard and buy turns in roughly the same manner ANT does. For that reason I really like 3 Infernal Tutor, 4 Duress MD and I've been experimenting with reducing Chrome Mox to 1 and adding a Simian Spirit Guide or just playing 2 Simian Spirit Guides in order to be certain I always have an accelerant that produces the off color mana to the combo (by off color I mean Red, considering your basic is Swamp and your first Fetchland choice is Underground Sea)

Cutting Cabal Therapy seems a bit strange to me considering how polarized your Burning Wishes are towards Empty the Warrens without Infernal Tutor in your SBs G1.

Yeah, I don't disagree on cutting Discard. Peter convinced me not too long after that I wasn't really gaining anything by the move, the Bayou is currently in my sideboard with 7 discard spells main.

EDIT: I put my current list in the OP.

[wonderPreaux]

Yeah, I don't disagree on cutting Discard. Peter convinced me not too long after that I wasn't really gaining anything by the move, the Bayou is currently in my sideboard with 7 discard spells main.

EDIT: I put my current list in the OP.

I was going to do a somewhat longer post talking about the last TES list, but it saves me some time if someone else talked the 7th discard spell back into the main (As an aside, I'm not really part of any of the think-tanks or web groups, so if any topics I bring up were already discussed, sorry for any redundancy for those reading this thread). Bryant, I think your current posted list looks good, but I have some suggested changes that I think are worth exploring:

Main-Deck:
- 1 Island
- 1 Underground Sea
- 1 Infernal Tutor
+ 1 Bayou
+ 1 Bloodstained Mire
+ 1 Chrome Mox

Side-Deck:
- 1 Bayou
- 1 Void Snare
+ 1 Infernal Tutor
+ 1 Grapeshot

Summary:
SB Tutor accommodates 3rd Chrome Mox
Snare becomes Grapeshot
Bayou replaces Underground Sea
Fetch replaces Island

SB Infernal Tutor/3rd Chrome Mox
I know there's been some back-and-forth in the past about how worthwhile the Infernal Tutor is in the sideboard. Personally, though, I've come to appreciate it a lot over time. Infernal Tutor in the SB provides more efficient use of LED mana for EtW lines, more worthwhile Wishes in matchups where Goblins don't shine, and only deprives your openers of a Tutor/Wish in 1/19 games (not even factoring cantrips into that figure). The 3rd Chrome Mox, something I appreciate a bit less, is something I feel complements this deck too well to disregard. One of the things that really irked me about the 8-Tutor/Wish build was that it seemed like one of the best build for 3 Moxen and yet I couldn't justify cutting a land for it. Still, even with just 7 Tutors, and thus less risk of the clumping that Mox helps to alleviate, Chrome Mox is valuable acceleration that can put this deck ahead of Hymns and Hatebears. If there is a real dearth of Tempo/Combo in your meta, it would probably be justifiable to run Bayou in the side and main-deck 8 business with 3 Moxen for maximum speed. That said, I think this configuration makes the deck best suited for a general meta.

Grapeshot > Snare
The logic for this choice is two-fold: 1 - Grapeshot + Pyroclasm is way more appealing to board in against Stoneblade than Clasm alone and I like having less pressure to bring in Decays. 2 - I've never had Snare come up particularly big for me in as long as I can remember playing it. What value targets can you point a Snare at? Leyline and Teeg. Teeg gets ripped up by Snare and Pyroclasm, and there is only marginal value in being able to delay siding in Chains against possible Leyline users given that, unlike ANT, you don't even fold to Leyline if they do have it and you didn't bring Chains.

I feel Grapeshot even exceeds Void Snare in corner-case uses as well. When it comes to randomly buying turns, I think bombing 1 or more Cliques/SCM/Pyromasters to slow already glacial control decks exceeds the value of bouncing 1 guy that they might still get value off of later. The ability to have a win condition not named "Tendrils of Agony", as well as side in 1 of the 2 storm spells against control/Patriot probably also trumps some dream-world scenario of Void Snare bouncing some odd permanent like a planeswalker or Lodestone Golem. I think using a Wish board to win the game and pack threats is better for this deck than trying to cover fringe cases and give up valuable slots for random cool stuff.

Bayou > Underground Sea/Fetchland > Island
My suggested change here is focused on providing black and red mana as consistently as possible. There are only 8 blue spells you need to be casting in the deck, often fewer than that postboard. If 9 red spells isn't enough to justify a basic red source, I don't see why 8 blue is enough to justify an Island. If you fetch a dual and cantrip, and then get Wastelanded, you're down a business color. However, if you fetch a basic Island and cantrip, you're still not having a business color on the following turn, you're only advantaged, effectively, 1 colorless mana as far as comboing goes. This configuration still boasts 11 blue sources, for consistency's sake, and has redundant dual-based sources of black and red mana to provide some coverage against Wasteland.

With some awareness of when to fetch Underground Sea vs. Bayou vs. Swamp, you can still manage to cast a cantrip while threading mana together, even against Wasteland. In my experience Island felt so underwhelming, especially post-board when 1 or more cantrips can be sided out and your hand is packed with red, black and even green business spells. With no Bayou in the side to sub in, I feel like the Island can just be entirely foregone. With 3 Moxen, and the availability of 3 blue duals and 8 fetches, you can cantrip as needed, while enjoying even more power in your slightly increased access to Basic Swamp. IMO, Gemstone Mine is arguably just as good overall for securing cantrips as a Basic Island, because Gemstone Mine is an unappealing Wasteland target and you get increased value from redundant green sources in some match-ups as well as the ability to immediately transition your cantrip into whatever business/protection you cantriped for, which increases the value of Mine (high-risk, high reward - feels appropriate for TES!). However, the Gemstone-less build is likely the safer hedge due to the high access to basic Swamp, so it gets the nod from me.

If anyone wants a more indepth explanation of my rationale, I would happy to explain more. For those who don't want to click over to the OP and then mentally substitute my changes, this is what I'm suggesting:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre

[Bryant Cook]

I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting a 8th fetch over a second Underground Sea. Sea is our best land, it does everything we want our lands to do. If it gets wasted you could easily be in a situation where you're now color screwed. I could see playing the Bayou in the main over the Island, it's something I've considered but I believe the additional basic is worth more. The difference between 8 Blue spells and 9 Red spells is the function is which they're used. You typically only need red mana once where blue mana is often a repeated use.

What the SB Infernal/3rd Mox comes down to is sideboard space, by playing it main and siding it out almost every round you gain a sideboard slot.

Snare has done me wonders against Ruric Thar (Elves) and Iona (Reanimator), both things Grapeshot doesn't really handle well. I want to play Grapeshot as much as everyone else, if you're willing to do 1 Chain/1 Snare to fit the Grapeshot I think that would be more suitable.

You do gain something similar to an additional basic with the third Chrome Mox, which is something interesting to think about. If I were to run something like you're suggesting, it would be this:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames

The downside of this list is that you're essentially giving up a second basic land for a Grapeshot, which makes me think it's not worthwhile.

[wonderPreaux]

I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting a 8th fetch over a second Underground Sea. Sea is our best land, it does everything we want our lands to do. If it gets wasted you could easily be in a situation where you're now color screwed. I could see playing the Bayou in the main over the Island, it's something I've considered but I believe the additional basic is worth more. The difference between 8 Blue spells and 9 Red spells is the function is which they're used. You typically only need red mana once where blue mana is often a repeated use.
There are about 3 distinct sorts of decks that use Wastelands, as far as I observe:

Lock/Prison
Tempo
Control

Against Lock/Prison decks, cantripping is probably as much a one-time thing as your red spells, given that you shouldn't/won't be playing a hand that relies on multiple cantrips, given the fear of lock pieces and the fact that you side out a number of Ponders. I think against Control it's something of a wash as those games are very slow and it would be very greedy of them to attempt to Wasteland you out. Against Tempo, I felt as though the increased fetch-access to basic Swamp was comparable to the additional Underground Sea, though I can understand wanting that redundancy and having a higher number of lands to actually fetch up. With that in mind, subbing a fetch back out for Sea is probably good.


What the SB Infernal/3rd Mox comes down to is sideboard space, by playing it main and siding it out almost every round you gain a sideboard slot.
You gain a sideboard slot at the cost of mana efficiency and acceleration. Cutting Island for Bayou frees a sideboard slot just as well, with Chrome Mox helping to smooth your blue and red sources.


Snare has done me wonders against Ruric Thar (Elves) and Iona (Reanimator), both things Grapeshot doesn't really handle well. I want to play Grapeshot as much as everyone else, if you're willing to do 1 Chain/1 Snare to fit the Grapeshot I think that would be more suitable.
I do not think Ruric Thar is a great example of the use of Void Snare. Losing 6-12 life and then being able to combo off against a deck that can easily blunt/seal our Past in Flames/EtW lines as of the midgame feels like an ambitious scenario to say the least. Particularly game 1, where Snare would actually have a large edge over SB Chain. FWIW, mtgTop8 lists only a third of Elves lists actually maining Ruric and under half having it in the 75.

Regarding Iona, an observant opponent game 1 would just call Red anyway and thus lock you out of the game. You would have to preemptively Wish for Snare and then the opponent would have to have no counters, no discard and no ability to subsequently revive a non-Iona target game 1. Overall, that seems like a lot to ask for. Postboard, you would have the 2 Chains of Vapor, so that you can break an Iona lock anyway.


You do gain something similar to an additional basic with the third Chrome Mox, which is something interesting to think about. If I were to run something like you're suggesting, it would be this:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames

The downside of this list is that you're essentially giving up a second basic land for a Grapeshot, which makes me think it's not worthwhile.
I think you would be better off just having that 3rd Chrome Mox over the 4th Tutor, and then the 4th Tutor over Snare. You'd be faster, more streamlined in executing your core plays, and I feel the EV of your Wishboard would still be robust. You would also have a strong blue presence with 4 blue duals and 3 Moxen. I'll concede that Underground Sea is likely worth more than the 8th fetch, thinking it over more, but I feel like Snare is highly over-rated. In the previous lists running no Chain of Vapor, I can see how Snare gets valued highly, but Vapor is likely a more efficient answer in the overall scheme of things and I just don't see the need for 3 bounce spells.

[Final Fortune]

Sinced I moved to 8 Fetchlands and 1 Swamp, I had a lot of problems with the "color fixing" Chrome Mox, because a lot of the time it doesn't color fix since you don't have a 2nd red card to cast Burning Wish or you have to imprint Gitaxian Probe in order to cast Ponder and you lose out on the draw 1 + information. I've been messing around with the tutor, discard, accelerant count and think Simian Spirit Guide is really worth the slots, either as a 1 or 2 of if you SB Infernal Tutor and balance out the average CC of the deck. As far as Island goes, believe me I get wanting to build up the manabase, but the problem is it can just be inconsistent to double fetch basics and get cut off of Red or only have 6 fetch for Swamp/Island instead of 8 fetch for just one of the two. That's kind of my composite reasoning for moving towards just playing Swamp MD and dedicating the "necessary evil" accelerant to Red mana. Also I really doubt only playing 1 Underground Sea us a good idea, if there's any land you'll have to fetch for twice it's that one. I think you guys are just getting really greedy with the number of reduant SB removal cards like Massacre, Pyroclasm, Grape Shot and Voidsnare, when you can cut 1 of those in order not to have to play with a shitty version of "Swamp" in your MD and cut multi colored blue sources.

[wonderPreaux]

Sinced I moved to 8 Fetchlands and 1 Swamp, I had a lot of problems with the "color fixing" Chrome Mox, because a lot of the time it doesn't color fix since you don't have a 2nd red card to cast Burning Wish or you have to imprint Gitaxian Probe in order to cast Ponder and you lose out on the draw 1 + information. I've been messing around with the tutor, discard, accelerant count and think Simian Spirit Guide is really worth the slots, either as a 1 or 2 of if you SB Infernal Tutor and balance out the average CC of the deck. As far as Island goes, believe me I get wanting to build up the manabase, but the problem is it can just be inconsistent to double fetch basics and get cut off of Red or only have 6 fetch for Swamp/Island instead of 8 fetch for just one of the two. That's kind of my composite reasoning for moving towards just playing Swamp MD and dedicating the "necessary evil" accelerant to Red mana. Also I really doubt only playing 1 Underground Sea us a good idea, if there's any land you'll have to fetch for twice it's that one. I think you guys are just getting really greedy with the number of reduant SB removal cards like Massacre, Pyroclasm, Grape Shot and Voidsnare, when you can cut 1 of those in order not to have to play with a shitty version of "Swamp" in your MD and cut multi colored blue sources.

FWIW, I think I'll be back on 2 U. Sea, and I will be trying to go on with just Grapeshot, Clasm and Massacre, alongside the "generic" Chain of Vapor.

Re: Spirit Guide, I tested it last summer and found it to be a fairly middling option compared to Chrome Mox. It's higher variance, in that it's great when its good and awful when it's bad. A lot of the time, for me, Chrome Mox imprinting red is fine because I'm doing it post Ad Nauseam or smoothing redundant tutors. Imprinting blue is just fine for me as well because it typically serves as an accelerant in hatebear matchups where the probe/2nd cantrip is less significant, or in games where the investment in another mana source to dodge daze is worth losing the info, since I'll have to take several draw steps and use discard anyway.

[Bryant Cook]

You gain a sideboard slot at the cost of mana efficiency and acceleration. Cutting Island for Bayou frees a sideboard slot just as well, with Chrome Mox helping to smooth your blue and red sources.

You're not actually freeing up a slot as you're sliding in the Infernal Tutor there, we're really just moving pieces rather than gaining any. I can also see what Final Fortune is saying with Mox not actually fixing color issues with red/blue sources.



I do not think Ruric Thar is a great example of the use of Void Snare. Losing 6-12 life and then being able to combo off against a deck that can easily blunt/seal our Past in Flames/EtW lines as of the midgame feels like an ambitious scenario to say the least. Particularly game 1, where Snare would actually have a large edge over SB Chain. FWIW, mtgTop8 lists only a third of Elves lists actually maining Ruric and under half having it in the 75.

Regarding Iona, an observant opponent game 1 would just call Red anyway and thus lock you out of the game. You would have to preemptively Wish for Snare and then the opponent would have to have no counters, no discard and no ability to subsequently revive a non-Iona target game 1. Overall, that seems like a lot to ask for. Postboard, you would have the 2 Chains of Vapor, so that you can break an Iona lock anyway.

I single handily won a round at Eternal Extravangza 2 weekend using Wish to answer Ruric Thar, while I understand that these instances aren't common, they happen. Void Snare has stolen me more than one game by being a Wishable target unlike Chain and I see nothing but an advantage in playing it over a Chain of Vapor (in your list). Also, you're assuming players always play correctly, do you know how little this actually happens? I get so many free wins based on players siding in Grafdiggers Cage, Rest in Peace, etc, this extends to naming the wrong color (Which is often black). We gain quite a bit by not actually being ANT.



I think you would be better off just having that 3rd Chrome Mox over the 4th Tutor, and then the 4th Tutor over Snare. You'd be faster, more streamlined in executing your core plays, and I feel the EV of your Wishboard would still be robust. You would also have a strong blue presence with 4 blue duals and 3 Moxen. I'll concede that Underground Sea is likely worth more than the 8th fetch, thinking it over more, but I feel like Snare is highly over-rated. In the previous lists running no Chain of Vapor, I can see how Snare gets valued highly, but Vapor is likely a more efficient answer in the overall scheme of things and I just don't see the need for 3 bounce spells.

I think a split of 1 Chain/1 Snare would likely be fine. I'll do some testing with no Island and report back, I think it's at least worth trying. SCG: Syracuse (My hometown) is this weekend, if I don't do well in the main event, I'll be playing in the IQ Sunday. But I'd much rather be still competing in Standard sunday.

[wonderPreaux]

You're not actually freeing up a slot as you're sliding in the Infernal Tutor there, we're really just moving pieces rather than gaining any. I can also see what Final Fortune is saying with Mox not actually fixing color issues with red/blue sources.
Well, overall you do free up a slot, the Island leaving makes room for Chrome Mox. Effectively, I guess I'm arguing that I'd rather have a Mox to facilitate/accelerate my colors, blue included, than have an island facilitate/stabilize my colors. This probably reaches back to innumerable previous debates about composition of lands/moxen and their respective numbers.


I single handily won a round at Eternal Extravangza 2 weekend using Wish to answer Ruric Thar, while I understand that these instances aren't common, they happen. Void Snare has stolen me more than one game by being a Wishable target unlike Chain and I see nothing but an advantage in playing it over a Chain of Vapor (in your list). Also, you're assuming players always play correctly, do you know how little this actually happens? I get so many free wins based on players siding in Grafdiggers Cage, Rest in Peace, etc, this extends to naming the wrong color (Which is often black). We gain quite a bit by not actually being ANT.
Isn't TES about playing the odds? If your useful Snare scenarios (Snarios) are uncommon, and Stoneblade/Hatebear scenarios are common, which option is really giving you the better EV? Moreover, there are advantages to playing Chain. For example, you can actually use it in the end step (better for Thalia/Port) or easily generate storm (if you wanna talk edge cases). Idk for sure how to respond to the last part about players misplaying Ionas, my intuitive response being that I would just try to play better and win out that way given that skill is probably more valuable than void snare and you can't beat lucky reanimator players anyway, lol


I think a split of 1 Chain/1 Snare would likely be fine. I'll do some testing with no Island and report back, I think it's at least worth trying. SCG: Syracuse (My hometown) is this weekend, if I don't do well in the main event, I'll be playing in the IQ Sunday. But I'd much rather be still competing in Standard sunday.
No island, 1:1 chain/snare split does seem like a fine hedge of both our ideas, I look forward to hearing about your testing. I'll try and get in games with my suggested list (i'll be on 2 Seas, don't anyone worry) and see if I miss the Snare/hate the 3rd Mox. Best of luck at the SCG.

[Bryant Cook]

Well, overall you do free up a slot, the Island leaving makes room for Chrome Mox. Effectively, I guess I'm arguing that I'd rather have a Mox to facilitate/accelerate my colors, blue included, than have an island facilitate/stabilize my colors. This probably reaches back to innumerable previous debates about composition of lands/moxen and their respective numbers.


Isn't TES about playing the odds? If your useful Snare scenarios (Snarios) are uncommon, and Stoneblade/Hatebear scenarios are common, which option is really giving you the better EV? Moreover, there are advantages to playing Chain. For example, you can actually use it in the end step (better for Thalia/Port) or easily generate storm (if you wanna talk edge cases). Idk for sure how to respond to the last part about players misplaying Ionas, my intuitive response being that I would just try to play better and win out that way given that skill is probably more valuable than void snare and you can't beat lucky reanimator players anyway, lol


No island, 1:1 chain/snare split does seem like a fine hedge of both our ideas, I look forward to hearing about your testing. I'll try and get in games with my suggested list (i'll be on 2 Seas, don't anyone worry) and see if I miss the Snare/hate the 3rd Mox. Best of luck at the SCG.

Exactly, we're not gaining slots. We could be if we still played all 4 Infernal MD (over Mox 3) and sided it out every round.

I guess my point is I want to be prepared for everything and if I can do that by playing a single sideboard slot differently for an almost identical card, it's worth it.

[wonderPreaux]

Exactly, we're not gaining slots. We could be if we still played all 4 Infernal MD (over Mox 3) and sided it out every round.

I guess my point is I want to be prepared for everything and if I can do that by playing a single sideboard slot differently for an almost identical card, it's worth it.

I get what you're saying about the shuffle of cards between Tutor over Mox, but what I think is significant is that once Island isn't in the board we're no longer in the position of having 14 lands in the 75 where we typically only use 13 of them in the main, and then you get the sb tutor for better EtW/Wish lines, the extra accel of Mox etc. But at this point, we've pretty much talked it to death and we'll just see what the testing shows about an Island-less build.

[Bryant Cook]

Looks like i'm playing Legacy tomorrow, I'm playing with the third Mox upside down so I can tell whether or not I would prefer if it was Mox/Island/Tutor.

[Bryant Cook]

12 Place at the SCG:Cuse Legacy IQ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82338)

Here's the list (Featured in the link above):

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

In my somewhat limited goldfishing, I rarely wanted the upside down Mox to actually be Chrome Mox. I went with the fourth Infernal Tutor, so that I could gain a sideboard slot. I cut the Pyroclasm as the Snare/Chains are more versatile while being easier to cast versus taxing effects.

R1 - Death and Taxes – I win the die roll.

G1 - He plays a turn one Mom followed by a Revoker on LED, I play Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam leaving a Petal open and kill him without needing LED.

Sideboarding: -3 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare

G2 - Long story short, there was an error with mulliganing on my opponents part. However, my hand was Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, LED, LED, Chrome Mox, Burning Wish and Polluted Delta.

2-0
1-0

R2 - MUD – I win the die roll.

G1 - She aggressively mulligans looking for a turn one Chalice, stopping at five. I turn one Ponder setting up a turn two. She plays a land and passes. I play Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor and Ad Nauseam.

Sideboarding: -1 Cabal Therapy, -4 Ponder, +2 Chain of Vapor, +3 Abrupt Decay

G2 - She has a turn one Chalice on one. My hand is Brainstorm, Decay, Swamp, Mire, Delta and a Petal. I lay lands down until my hand develops, I decay Chalice on her end step, untap, draw and Brainstorm. It's not a good one, but it finds another Brainstorm and a Chain of Vapor. I shuffle using a fetch and then I Chain her Metalworker to slow her down knowing she can't cast the Lodestone Golem in her hand (known off Probe). She recasts, Metalworker and passes. I draw Dark Ritual for turn, Brainstorm into a land, Infernal Tutor and a Lion's Eye Diamond. Easy game.

4-0
2-0

R3 - Shardless BUG – I win the die roll.

G1 - I Probe him turn one to see four non-wasteland Lands, Brainstorm, Dig Through Time and Tasigur. I Duress his Brainstorm and easily resolved Ad Nauseam two turns later.

Sideboarding: -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ponder, +3 Xantid Swarm (Note: He mentioned in passing that he beat a previous storm opponent on the back of a Flusterstorm. I figured I'd try it.

G2 - I get crushed by a series of back to back Thoughtseizes followed by a Hymn to Tourach and eventually a Goyf.

G3 - My opening hand is Bayou, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm and a pair of Lotus Petal. I Probe and see a Force of Will, Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm and three lands. I draw a third Lion's Eye Diamond, play out the artifact mana and pass. He Thoughtseizes me, I Brainstorm in response finding Swamp, Duress and Cabal Therapy. I reveal Swamp and then over the next two turns remove Force and Fluster. In the meantime, he plays a Goyf and a Deathrite Shaman. My hand is now Dark Ritual and his is a second Goyf and just Brainstorm (known from the Probe on the stack) I draw Ad Nauseam and cast it using the Dark Ritual, Bayou and remaining Lotus Petal. He Brainstorm doesn't save him.

6-1
3-0

R4 - Dark Maverick – He wins the die roll.

G1 - He plays a turn one Pithing Needle on Lion's Eye Diamond. I actually lose this game, can you believe it? I shred his hand, am actually about to win before he draws a Thalia on his last turn. There's no justice.

Sideboarding: -3 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare

G2 - He concedes to my 14 Goblins on turn 2 after I Void Snare his blocker when I attack on turn 3.

G3 - I mulligan. He plays a Plains and passes, I play a Petal and Fetch holding Chain of Vapor, Ad Nauseam, Dark Ritual and lands. He plays Cannonist, I Chain it on his endstep and Ad Nauseam on my turn. Tough.

8-2
4-0

R5 - Miracles – I win the die roll.

G1 - He lands a CB on turn three after two discard spells, I play a Rite of Flame (he reveals a land), Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Burning Wish, Empty. He draws the land, lays it and passes. I attack and pass. He draws Ponder, Ponders finding Top. Lays Top, fetches, and finds Terminus...

Sideboarding: -1 Ponder, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Empty the Warrens, +3 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm

G2 - I cantrip on turn one, he lays a land and passes. I Duress him, he Enlighten Tutors in response for Cannonist. I Brainstorm on his endstep but only have two Underground Sea with a Decay, two Wish, two LED and an Infernal. I Infernal for the shuffle effect to find a second Decay. He beats me down with Cannonist and Clique before I can find any proper color mana in a reasonable time frame.

8-4
4-1

R6 - Junk/Abzan – He wins the die roll.

G1 - Thoughtseize, Wasteland, Hymn, Lilliana and SFM all happen to me game one.

Sideboarding: -2 Chrome Mox, +2 Chain of Vapor

G2 - This probably should've been a mulligan? Underground Sea, Bloodstained Mire, Brainstorm, Ponder, Duress, Cabal Therapy and Cabal Therapy. I don't end up doing anything this game and lose to his draw steps (In a row, Wasteland, Wasteland, Thoughteize and Tarmogoyf).

8-6
4-2

R6 - Trainwreck – I win the die roll.

G1 - He Thoughtseizes me turn one, I still kill him turn 2.

Sideboarding: -4 Cabal Therapy, -1 Empty he Warrens, +1 Tendrils of Agony, +1 Past in Flames, +3 Abrupt Decay (He's an old friend, I know that he has Chalice in his side and that his deck becomes mostly discard).

G2 - I go to set up a PIF kill before realizing I'm an idiot and sided it in for the first time in over six months, I make 16 Goblins into a Pernicious Deed. I win three turns later when I draw the Past in Flames. Embarrassing.

10-6
5-2

Good enough for 12th place, I felt like the list was strong. The matches I lost were mostly tough breaks. I never wanted the Island, but didn't play against any tempo decks either. I did play against a bunch of Prison and Midrange with Wasteland but the Island wouldn't have been relevant. I never used Surgical, but it was mostly based on pairings as I saw a few Dredge + Reanimator early on in the day.

[Pelikanudo]

Related to R6 - Junk/Abzan

Assuming this is Junk - just discard, wastelands and bears.
Why the hell you board out the 2 C.M?
maybe I don't know this archetype - but does this archetype play Blue?

Related to Shardless BUG:
do Siding in 3 Xantid really improve that match up? I believe there isn't anything better...
What is your thinking process related to this? maybe : it is Slow Control and it is likely Opp. will side out Anti Bears.

EDIT: you're ritght Lem! I just didn't understand this on the note Bryant wrote.... my english is not as good as yours! Thanks

[Lemnear]

Bryant made pretty clear that he boarded Xantid as his opponent dropped a line about boarding additional counters like Flusterstorm and opted to "try it"

[Bryant Cook]

Peter and I were discussing the list yesterday and came up with what's below. We decided that it's likely in our best interest to play a second green source in the sideboard rather than run cards like Chain of Vapor/Disfigure (something we were considering), in doing so it created sideboard slots. Actually, we had an extra space. The slot to me was originally a discard spell, but it could be anything, Diminishing Returns, Grapeshot, Telemin Performance, Storm Entity, Ali from Cairo, you name it. But the more I thought about it, the more I think it should be a sideboard Infernal Tutor (This is the only slot where Peter disagrees).

By playing an additional green source we can reliably side in Decay versus Wasteland decks, making it a much more versatile card. The second green source would likely have to be a Bayou as Tropical can't be searched for by Bloodstained Mire and we run only a basic Swamp, so we need our Mire. The alternative would be Taiga, which I'm not convinced is the greatest option.

I believe the new SB plan against D&T would be:

-3 Duress
-2 Ponder
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Void Snare
+1 Bayou

I believe the new SB plan against Reanimator would be:

-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Ponder
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Swamp
+3 Xantid Swarm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Bayou

If you decide you don't like the additional Bayou in the side, I would recommend two Chain of Vapor in the sideboard over the Infernal (going back to the maindeck) + Bayou.


4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

I'm looking forward to people's thoughts.

[Final Fortune]

Disfigure seems like a really strong choice for the DNT match ups, I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

[Pelikanudo]

Bryant Stuff...
.

My thoughts:

I really think the A.Decay idea vs D&T is awfull:
- you only play 13 lands and among those you play only 1 basic (having in mind lot of them are fetches it is like playing 12 lands with 3.5 fetches)
- if Thalia is played you'll be in a bad position to get to play you A.D. as they play 4 Wastelands 4 Ports. - then you'll need to play 1 Swamp 1 C.Mox 1 Destroyable Land to aim this goal.

I play 4 only to win my So Hated Miracles match up... (will try again 2 Silences and see if they don't get worse so much that 1st games vs this archetype...)

Good luck about this.

Related to the manabase:
Well I strongly disagree in playing 13 lands and only 11 of them producing blue - you need blue to beeing able to set up with cantrips for the next turn to combo off. Me for example playing 12 lands and 12 producing blue have a more consistence at playing cantrips than you in the first turns.

Related to the I.T. in side:
As Lem I also disagtree on this:
I finally stated on the following:
Even I recognize I loose Side Slots, I just prefer to make B.W. a strong and polivalent Storm Engine - this means playing D.R. and Bribery in Side, BUT absolutly I just don't want to leave the 2nd best card in the deck in the side at least in 1st Match ups - this are just statistics. and for exact this same reason I just play Bribery (it is like playing A.N. in side vs Sneak and Reanimator!) and D.R. in side (vs those Pox and Lands builds and can do something vs blue if Xantid is in play) . If I had to get rid of a Base slot I absolutly would prefer to play 3 B.W. and 4 I.T. than backwards - as said - If I had - but never will do this... (maybe will try 6 Discards in base... don't know...)

Related to Disfigure:
Well I see this card as a very specific card - I really don't want to play such specific card in a build like TES and even vs an already favourable match up like D&T - for sure I would prefer C&V which also serves to bounce Spheres Of R. which are seeing play by here lately...


Apart, please Bryant could you answer why you sided that way vs Junk?
Thanks.

[Lemnear]

My thoughts:

I really think the A.Decay idea vs D&T is awfull:
- you only play 13 lands and among those you play only 1 basic (having in mind lot of them are fetches it is like playing 12 lands with 3.5 fetches)
- if Thalia is played you'll be in a bad position to get to play you A.D. as they play 4 Wastelands 4 Ports. - then you'll need to play 1 Swamp 1 C.Mox 1 Destroyable Land to aim this goal.

First, we're talking about 14(!) lands total and among them two green sources so you're not cold to a single Wasteland and Decay is an instant, so you can sit on Fetchlands to destroy Thalia and shit either eot or in response to Port. The only potential problem is the 3 mana total.


I play 4 only to win my So Hated Miracles match up... (will try again 2 Silences and see if they don't get worse so much that 1st games vs this archetype...)

I don't see why you are complaining about Wasteland and Port but are fine with playing Gemstone Mines and Silences in this meta while Fetches would let you sandbag mana against Wasteland/Port and get access to Basics on demand *shrug*


Related to the manabase:
Well I strongly disagree in playing 13 lands and only 11 of them producing blue - you need blue to beeing able to set up with cantrips for the next turn to combo off. Me for example playing 12 lands and 12 producing blue have a more consistence at playing cantrips than you in the first turns.

I said it before in the thread: you have 2 non-blue producing lands in the Maindeck and one in the side among 14 lands, but have only 4 Spells which expose you after fetching a blue Dual. Pal, you play 1 blue Source more than Bryant but two lands less in total postboard; talking about consistancy especially against Wasteland or Port is a bit off imo


Related to the I.T. in side:
As Lem I also disagtree on this:
I finally stated on the following:
Even I recognize I loose Side Slots, I just prefer to make B.W. a strong and polivalent Storm Engine - this means playing D.R. and Bribery in Side, BUT absolutly I just don't want to leave the 2nd best card in the deck in the side at least in 1st Match ups - this are just statistics. and for exact this same reason I just play Bribery (it is like playing A.N. in side vs Sneak and Reanimator!) and D.R. in side (vs those Pox and Lands builds and can do something vs blue if Xantid is in play) . If I had to get rid of a Base slot I absolutly would prefer to play 3 B.W. and 4 I.T. than backwards - as said - If I had - but never will do this... (maybe will try 6 Discards in base... don't know...)

I don't know how I feel about seeing my name in the lead of a Paragraph talking about DimRet and 3 Wishes ;P


Related to Disfigure:
Well I see this card as a very specific card - I really don't want to play such specific card in a build like TES and even vs an already favourable match up like D&T - for sure I would prefer C&V which also serves to bounce Spheres Of R. which are seeing play by here lately...

It is as specific as Massacre, Decay or Bribery; it's an option against hatebears which can be played safe off the Basic Swamp and also Deals with DRS, Delver or Magus of the Moon on demand just to name a few. I don't see a general Problem with running specific answers to common problems.

[BrettF]

Field report: April 11th 2015 Vancouver Legacy Spring Classic, 40 players

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Void Snare
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Bribery (this sucked, there was only two players with griselbrands in the room, i'll never learn i guess)


R1- Miracles
Game one: Duress into Ad Nauseam
SB: -4 Ponder, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Swamp, -2 Duress. +3 Xantid Swarm, +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bayou, +1 Thoughtseize.
Game Two: He has triple(!) white leyline but no force when i go for ad nauseam and tutor for 30 Goblins.
1-0

R2 - Miracles
Game one: I start hitting him with Discard, draw an ETW for the turn and cast rituals + more discard into ETW. He finds no answer.
SB: -4 Ponder, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Swamp, -2 Duress. +3 Xantid Swarm, +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bayou, +1 Thoughtseize.
Game Two: He has white leyline (again! is this a new thing?). Luckily i have ETW in my opening hand and manage to put 4 copies on the stack. He forces a copy but my 6 goblins kill him as he draws no terminus.
2-0

*note* I realize my sideboard strategy is not typical in this matchup. I find i have better results trying to pick my spot super early with 2 chrome mox and ETW still in the deck, and if that fails at least i have the 6 green cards sided in. Ponder won't stop counterbalance/hatebears from resolving and is super bad when counterbalance has already resolved so i cut some consistency there for the green cards that can pull me a win lategame if i draw them.

R3 - BUG Delver
Game one: He has turn 1 Delver on the play with counters in hand, I discard some counters but he draws more, and adds a second delver. By the time i clear his hand I'm at 5 life and he has 2 flipped delvers, I do quick math and scoop cuz my only line is Tendrils him to 2 life.
*note* As i throw my cards back into my deck, I realize i should have gone ahead and Tendrils him to 2 life. This gives me two draw steps to draw exactly burning wish and then ritual/LED, or LED and then Burning wish to past in flames tendrils him assuming he'll draw 3 bad cards as i draw 2 perfect cards.
SB: -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Ponder. +1 Bayou, +1 Thoughtseize.
Game two: He starts on delver, I start on duress and clear something from his hand. His delver doesn't flip and i draw ETW for the turn and make a bunch of tokens that kill him.
Game three: On turn 2 he has two open lands and no pressure but my hand is DR, Rof, Rof, LED, AdN, ETW, Duress and i somehow feel unstoppable. I tap my volc for Rof, it resolves, 2nd rite of flame resolves, DR resolves next, then i duress. He forces duress. I cast LED and then Empty the warrens floating 2. He STIFLES my storm trigger, damn! My 2 goblins get blocked and i spend all game trying to find 5 mana to cast that ad nauseam while he kills me.
2-1

R4 - DNT
Game one: My hand is 14 goblins on the draw. His hand is Mother of runes into SFM on the play. I don't draw any discard on my turn 2.
SB: -3 Duress, -1 Ponder. +1 Void Snare, +1 Bayou, +1 Infernal Tutor, +1 Thoughtseize.
Game two: Turn 2 AdN on the play.
Game three: he mulls to 5 and leads on karakas. I thoughtseize him off basic swamp and take his cannonist leaving him with two wastelands and SFM in hand. Good thing i have a basic swamp in play so he can't waste me back a turn giving him more turns to draw more hatebears! He casts his mystic having not drawn a hatebear for the turn and i untap and infernal for ad nauseam.
3-1

R5 - ANT
Game one: He's on the play but i get to duress his infernal. We tear at eachothers hands a bit but i end up short storming him for 16 which is lethal thanks to two gitaxians earlier.
SB: -1 ETW, +1 Thoughtseize
Game two: We destroy eachothers hands but this time he PIF loops before i rebuild.
Game three: He misses on T1 therapy naming burning wish, which leads me to believe he's got surgical backup. My turn 2 i go off with ad nauseam but he halts my combo by surgical on infernal while i only have access to black. I have to discard down and pass back, he hits me with another discard spell taking a burning wish but on my turn I draw another Burning wish and i'm able to PIF for the win.
4-1

R6 - ID into top 8

Quarterfinals - Infect
Game one: He has the play. I mull to 5 finally seeing an IMS. He has a clock and my draws brick though.
SB: -1 Ponder. +1 Thoughtseize.
Game two: I eventually clear his hand and he has a random top card but have to pass back. He draws, attacks, and next turn will be lethal if he gets one. I take my turn and cast adnauseam. Hes got FOW cast from his 5 lands.

Game over!

Thanks for reading.

In regards to having Chain of Vapor VS DNT; I'm satisfied with my boarding plan of -3 Duress, -1 Ponder. +1 Void Snare, +1 Bayou, +1 Infernal Tutor, +1 Thoughtseize.

Just getting the duresses out of the deck and going belcher mode is all you should need and the other SB spots should be used for Surgical or something. IN MY OPINION. Okay goodnight.

[Pelikanudo]

First, we're talking about 14(!) lands total and among them two green sources so you're not cold to a single Wasteland and Decay is an instant, so you can sit on Fetchlands to destroy Thalia and shit either eot or in response to Port. The only potential problem is the 3 mana total.

Well, you are right, I assumed Bryant's Base and Side contained only 1 single Green source in total. I suppose you play 2 Green sources to support A.D. under Wasteland. I dont think it is worth it. Still I believe that the way to go vs D&T is just beeing faster, not sitting on your feches until you reach any A.D. -> once you reach this point , I don't think you only will need to deal with a unique hatebear... as they also play Vial.
Anyway, maybe it is valid to test this option and see if works, as said I only use decays vs MUD and Miracles so it is not bad idea to make use of decays also for D&T . Long time ago I have no problems vs this archetype.


I don't see why you are complaining about Wasteland and Port but are fine with playing Gemstone Mines and Silences in this meta while Fetches would let you sandbag mana against Wasteland/Port and get access to Basics on demand *shrug*

I complain about Port and wasteland inside the context of trying to cast A.D. not in the context to go off - in this context - I just need CoB or Gemstone. so yes - in this context Gemstones and CoB are more consistent in terms of availability of mana to get the goal of going off.

I said it before in the thread: you have 2 non-blue producing lands in the Maindeck and one in the side among 14 lands, but have only 4 Spells which expose you after fetching a blue Dual. Pal, you play 1 blue Source more than Bryant but two lands less in total postboard; talking about consistancy especially against Wasteland or Port is a bit off imo

Same argument as before - Context. and will add
In my experince as Storm player I focus TES and ANT as very different approaches to handle 1.Blue with wastelands and 2.Wastelands Only. For the TES approach I just Im used to use gemstones to throw duresses and stuff to my Opponents and I really don-t need any Indestructible Land, I just dont mind if they destroy my Gemestone once I played my duress with LAnd in hand or Ponder into another gemstone as example.

I believe the main disagreement we have is the different way we want to face wastelands, as a TES player Ive been ok with this approach and just do not want to change to ANT approach as I still dont find any need for this.


I don't know how I feel about seeing my name in the lead of a Paragraph talking about DimRet and 3 Wishes ;P

I'm with you in not playing 3 I.T. in side. that-s all.

It is as specific as Massacre, Decay or Bribery; it's an option against hatebears which can be played safe off the Basic Swamp and also Deals with DRS, Delver or Magus of the Moon on demand just to name a few. I don't see a general Problem with running specific answers to common problems.

Well I said that maybe it is better to run CoV as it has the same cost as disfigure and likely the same effect - bouncing a thalia to win on next turn is the thing you will do most of the times as example. Now I see that you decremented the number of blue sources in favour of black sources maybe it is better to use a black antihatebear I can not disagree on this.

NOTE> you mentioned here magus , I switches from massacre to pyroclasm becuase>
1. it is more generic card and dont have so many swamps
2. Still didn-t find any need vs D^T talking about massacre.
3. I found a scenario in which pyroclasm instead massacre would have won me the game vs Red MUD.

[Kael]

I was also up at the Vancouver Classic last weekend, though my results weren't quite as good as Brett's (I continue my 9th place streak). Lost my notes somewhere on the trip back, but I have a pretty decent recollection of what happened.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Void Snare
SB: 1 Telemin Performance (last minute decision after seeing 4 storm decks in the room, plus I wanted to troll Greg)

R1 - Shardless

G1: Probe him to see a hand of dudes and Visions, cast a bunch of red spells and make ~14 goblins.
G2: He Thoughtseizes my hand of BW, land, BS, LED, RoF, RoF, Probe. He takes the BS, which made me feel like he had a pretty stacked hand. Probed him to see pretty much the same hand as game 1, dump Goblins, he died in short order (though he put up a valiant fight by cascading into a Chill :eyebrow: )

1-0
2-0 in games


R2 - Painter

G1: Pretty sure he dropped a Moon on turn 1 and died to AN > ToA.

G2: He assembled the obnoxious Welder/Welder/Canonist board, which I couldn't get out of. Died to midget beats.

G3: Weird game that I very nearly punted. He went turn 2 Recruit for Canonist, SSG, Petal, cast the Canonist. I had a decay, but managed to draw both of my Volcs and the bayou, but no other useful mana sources for a few turns. He blasts some cantrips and hits me a few times. I rip CoV and bounce his Canonist EOT and untap into AN, draw every IT and ritual in my deck, but no BW, LED, or cantrips. I have to stop at 1 life, Imprint a discard spell to decay his Recruiter that's threatening to kill me, and discard down to 7, happy to ditch the lands. He untaps, replays the canonist. I draw and realize I didn't make a land drop before discarding, so I still can't go off after Decaying his Canonist. I just pass and blow it up during his combat though, and he has nothing else relevant. Natural Tendrils him.

2-0
4-1 in games

R3 - Merfolk

G1: He drops a Catcher, and I probe him seeing Daze, Pierce, Force, Lord, land (who the hell plays Pierce in Merfolk?) I sculpt for awhile and try to go off through his soft counters, but Tidal warrior is making it really hard. Don't remember the exact sequencing, but I didn't have enough mana left over to make anything but Goblins, which didn't do much against his islandwalking 4/4s.

G2: I mull to a slowish 6 with Swarm, He mulls to a 4-card hand, Land, Pierce, Silvergill, land I think. Duress the Pierce, he rips Ponder (at this point I have no idea what's going on), and it stabilizes his draw, which I never manage to find business with my cantrips and die to a bunch of Lords.

2-1
4-3 in games


R4 - DnT

G1: He drops a Mom. I drop 16 goblins.
G2: He drops a canonist. I go Petal > LED > CoV, bounce the Petal/LED/Canonist, Petal, LED, Ritual, Ritual, IT, BW, Tendrils. I forgot how much fun CoV is.

3-1
6-3 in games


R5 - DnT

G1: He drops a Thalia and wastes me into oblivion.
G2: He plays some hatebears, I sculpt for awhile, wipe his board and kill him at some point.
G3: He plays a Mom, a bear, a RiP, then Stoneforge for Batterskull. By the time I can get the bear off the board, he's got the germ online, and all I have is a single BW for business.

3-2
7-5 in games


R6 - Infect

G1: I keep a discard heavy hand, he drops a turn 1 Elf. I see a hand of Daze and pump spells, so I start stripping the pump spells. His 1 poison a turn doesn't get there, and though the only business I found was Empty, he still can't fight through 18 goblins.
G2: A drawn out cripple fight where I strip his only Infect dude, but can't find any business, where he just draws ~8 lands in a row. He eventually gets Tendrils'd.

4-2
9-5 in games


Not the greatest run - I had a few frustrating situations where graveyard hate + a clock made Wish feel really useless, I probably could have altered my gameplan and tried to sculpt a natural Tendrils in those situations, but it's not something I find myself doing very often. I might switch back to an ANT variant for awhile to get back into the habit of looking for natural kills, I feel pretty rusty in that regard.


General notes:

- Chain of Vapor was really nice, I'll definitely keep playing it in local events.

- I'm liking the basic Swamp, still can't see how you guys stand the Island, though

- Matt Pavlic is a cool dude.

- #bantidalwarrior

[.Ix]

Just a heads up, guys. Paeng is in day 2 of GP Kyoto with TES.

[Bryant Cook]

Just a heads up, guys. Paeng is in day 2 of GP Kyoto with TES.

Congrats to him as well as Kai who made top 8.

In other news, I'll be working on the TES site today (first time in a month, I've been busy!).

[LDX]

As I'm not helping with any constructive deckbuilding, advices, or anything really, please feel free to ignore my newbie questions. I did my best at reading the thread, but if a question was already answered, please feel free to ignore me again. If however someone is willing to help a rather bad TES player, here is my situation.

I just came back from a break. I played TES a bit before, was lot of fun, but my meta changed harsly and this the version I was running seems to be out dated. I did some of the work, noticed the differences between my old version and the new one posted in the original post. When possible, I guess I would prefer to check if my reasoning is good rather than just plain explaining why the changes were made, as it was all written. However, when I'm obviously wrong in my poor analysis or even my fact checking (thinking a change is for something while it's for something else), please, please, correct me. Here we go!

QUESTIONS/ANALYSIS

Gemstone Mine & Basic Lands
As I have barely any Wasteland or other taxes in my meta, I honestly don't feel or understand the need to get rid of the Gemstone Mine for basic lands. To my eyes it just seems they should provide additional constancy with basically no drawbacks. I mean, I understand Gemstone were better when we were using 5 colors, but what's wrong using it for 4 colors when it will more than likely stay on the field? Your experience could show me wrong but I would appreciate an explanation.

The case of Xantid Swarm, Bayou, and Tropical Island
As you can see, we don't have many blue decks or counterspells. No Show & Tell, Omnitell, Sneak and Show, or the like. While it was useful vs the Reanimator and the Merfolk, I'm questionning if Xantid is a must and if Silence wouldn't be more versatile judging the amount of discards the other decks are running. An other reason why I wouldn't play Xantid is my lack of Bayou. It was very well explained why Bayou is a superior choice to Tropical Island, but I'm not in a position to make that switch, from my understanding, a Tropical Island instead of a Bayou wouldn't make THAT much of a difference if the only purpose becomes Abrupt Decay. You wouldn't try a T2 win when you need an Abrupt Decay, so yeah, the argument might not work. Or at least it's what I understand.

Silence
As a remplacement for Xantid Swarm, my logical choice would become Silence. Please not that I don't want to play the card more than an other and I'm not trying to find excuses to put it in the deck as some others might do, I'm really trying to be plain rational here. 6 players out of 7 might run discards, and only 2 could run any sort of counterspells. A quick silence the turn before I go in usually makes me safe to go for the kill when they can barely respond with anything before it's too late.

Infernal Tutor kept in the side
So many discard, once again, and quite a few Extirpate/Surgical Extraction running around. For these reasons I would keep it out, but some of you might think that, judging by the meta, I should put all the chances I can for a quick T1 or T2 kill. I would appreciate advice on that.

General Sideboard List
I was planning on something like this:

2 Abrupt Decay (don't own 3)
3 Silence (discussed above)
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm (should be very useful in my meta)
1 Massacre (could be a flex spot, but I like it vs Elves and the new D&T)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor (discussed above)
1 Grapeshot (used it a few times

That means:
-no sideboard land (I doubt I'm good enough to have a land in sideboard anyway, seems complex)
-no Thoughtseize (feels no need since barely any other combo deck)
-no Pithing Needle (but I don't see it being good)
-no Xantid Swarm (for the reasoning mentionned above)


And that should be it. I short, I guess we could make a TL;DR such as this

TL;DR: What's the best TES version I could build, without a Bayou or more than 2 Abrupt Decay, in the meta I'm playing in?
As I said I would gladly accept criticism over my conclusions. Let your experience speak!

Thanks again.


META

Player 1
Manaless Dredge (may borrow my FoW and play Michael Keller's list)
Elves!
Burn

Player 2
Enchantress (no FoW)
Abzan Stoneblade (without Wasteland)
Affinity

Player 3
Merfolk (with FoW)
Burn
4 -color Maverick (with Wasteland)
UR Delver (with FoW)

Player 4
The Gate (usually no Wasteland, may borrow mine)

Player 5
Reanimator (with FoW)

Player 6
Death and Taxes (with Wasteland and Ports)

Player 7 (me)
TES
UW Stoneblade (with FoW)
The Gate (with Wasteland)
Esper Counterthopter ISHH (built with left overs from other decks)
Oops! All spells

Player 8
Plays what ever he can burrows from someone else





OLD VERSION FOUND
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Void Snare

[Lemnear]

As I'm not helping with any constructive deckbuilding, advices, or anything really, please feel free to ignore my newbie questions. I did my best at reading the thread, but if a question was already answered, please feel free to ignore me again. If however someone is willing to help a rather bad TES player, here is my situation.

I just came back from a break. I played TES a bit before, was lot of fun, but my meta changed harsly and this the version I was running seems to be out dated. I did some of the work, noticed the differences between my old version and the new one posted in the original post. When possible, I guess I would prefer to check if my reasoning is good rather than just plain explaining why the changes were made, as it was all written. However, when I'm obviously wrong in my poor analysis or even my fact checking (thinking a change is for something while it's for something else), please, please, correct me. Here we go!

It's lunchbreak, so lets see if I can help you out. Will keep it sgort however. Hope thats fine


QUESTIONS/ANALYSIS

Gemstone Mine & Basic Lands
As I have barely any Wasteland or other taxes in my meta, I honestly don't feel or understand the need to get rid of the Gemstone Mine for basic lands. To my eyes it just seems they should provide additional constancy with basically no drawbacks. I mean, I understand Gemstone were better when we were using 5 colors, but what's wrong using it for 4 colors when it will more than likely stay on the field? Your experience could show me wrong but I would appreciate an explanation.

It's not about the basics in the first place, but about the fetches to improve the cantrips and the fact that Dual give you the ability to battle in longer games while Gemstones leave you dead in the water and your opponent can just watch you depleting your Mining Counters and destroying your own manasource, while he can sit on a Taxing Counter. It's counterintuitive to deplete your Gemstone in longer games just for finding (reads: cantripping) more lands. Since we moved to basically 3,5 colors only and managed to find a pretty compact color distribution in Duals, Gemstones did no longer cut it. At this point there came up the discussion about adding Basics (or current state: a swamp) for maintaining a Wasteland-proof manasource to cast discard, which you can follow up with Volcanic for BR off two IMS for your combo.

so look beyind the surface: it's not about the Basic; it's about better cantrips


The case of Xantid Swarm, Bayou, and Tropical Island
As you can see, we don't have many blue decks or counterspells. No Show & Tell, Omnitell, Sneak and Show, or the like. While it was useful vs the Reanimator and the Merfolk, I'm questionning if Xantid is a must and if Silence wouldn't be more versatile judging the amount of discards the other decks are running. An other reason why I wouldn't play Xantid is my lack of Bayou. It was very well explained why Bayou is a superior choice to Tropical Island, but I'm not in a position to make that switch, from my understanding, a Tropical Island instead of a Bayou wouldn't make THAT much of a difference if the only purpose becomes Abrupt Decay. You wouldn't try a T2 win when you need an Abrupt Decay, so yeah, the argument might not work. Or at least it's what I understand.

Check the metagame: S&T and Miracles are the two most played archetypes atm and Xantid is good against these as well as stuff like Infect. It blanks all these Flusterstorms from the board and messes with SDT->counter which ks the secind biggest annoyance next to Counterbalance out of Miracles. Silence isn't more versatile and that's the reason we cutted it in the first place (color or manabase wasn't a reason at that time). It's plain carddisadvantage if you want to use it to prevent sorcery speed hate and total crap once you face a deck which pairs such hate (Hatebears/Discard) with counters. You would splash a color AND suffer a strategic disadvantage at the same time.

If you have no access to Bayou, take a Tropical and mind that you might have problems with your fetchlands as a result as there is no one other than Delta to grab Swamp/Sea/Trop/Volcanic. The real advantage of Bayou isn't Decay as you can pair U.Sea + Tropical, it's that Volcanic + Bayou not only delivers all 4 colors AND Black+Red for the combo turn, but that Bayou also casts all kind of protection (xantid/duress/therapy) as either your first or second land after a Volcanic (to cantrip up to two times before shuffling with a fetch).

once again, look behind the curtain: it's not about Decay; it's about color-access and disruption off two lands


Silence
As a remplacement for Xantid Swarm, my logical choice would become Silence. Please not that I don't want to play the card more than an other and I'm not trying to find excuses to put it in the deck as some others might do, I'm really trying to be plain rational here. 6 players out of 7 might run discards, and only 2 could run any sort of counterspells. A quick silence the turn before I go in usually makes me safe to go for the kill when they can barely respond with anything before it's too late.

So why not discard their discard then AND peek at their hand WITHOUT the need to run white? 3 flies with 1 clap. Running Silence over Xantid and/or Discard postboard is irrational against either a counteroverload or opposing discard. What's the point of dropping Gemstone to cast an upkeep Silence if your opponent shrugs and plays Wasteland or wasn't about to do anything in the first place? You threw away a card for nothing. The only advantage you have there is a certain protection against topdecked, sorcery-speed hate. IMO not worth running another color and a weaker manabase.


Infernal Tutor kept in the side
So many discard, once again, and quite a few Extirpate/Surgical Extraction running around. For these reasons I would keep it out, but some of you might think that, judging by the meta, I should put all the chances I can for a quick T1 or T2 kill. I would appreciate advice on that.

I still consider this a meta-call. If you think you'll face plenty of decks which fold to the T1/2 burst, run the Infernal MB and potentially side it out for lonfer games 2&3 against more resistance which is to expect. If you suspect to face more defensive opponents (simply because they know your deck for example and ergo are more likely to keep hands with early interaction like Thoughtseize/FoW), run the Infernal in the side.


TL;DR: What's the best TES version I could build, without a Bayou or more than 2 Abrupt Decay, in the meta I'm playing in?
As I said I would gladly accept criticism over my conclusions. Let your experience speak!

Thanks again.

I skipped the list, because I said enough about Silence before to pick up the topic once more. If you manage to aquire Bayou at some point, do it. We have suprisingly achieved a consent across Storm-Subtypes that Bayou is the best green land to run in the maindeck, but a Tropical will do it too for the time being. Having only 2 Decays are however a no-topic for me; sorry about that. It's our life ensurance against Chalice/Counterbalance/shit-we-cannot-win-through since it's printing. We have tried w/o Decays and failed. I would rather play 4 than 3 atm, but arguing about only 2 with the current representation of miracles in the metagame is out of the picture.

I also ignore the metagame listed. The deck is build to perform well meta-independant aside 1-3 SB slots you may want to switch out at times (Extractions, CoV, etc.)

[Lemnear]

Before I forget it: Tickets for GP Lille here here!

Will make a Twitter-Live-Ticker for that weekend so you can follow me and see how bad I do .. lol

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/WIN_20150423_123939_zpsuckf1tfi.jpg

[Pelikanudo]

Before I forget it: Tickets for GP Lille here here!

Will make a Twitter-Live-Ticker for that weekend so you can follow me and see how bad I do .. lol



Lemnear I wish you good luck there!!!

I've seen recently that magicCardMarket is doing something similar like SCG and I'll try to attend to any torunament in Europe, for sure when it occurs in Madrid I'll go, I hope someday I find some of you Stomers!

I would appreciate if you post me or likes the final list you'll go with.

Apart, I have possibilities to attend to a tournament in here no more than 100 people and will bring my TES build to see if performs well with those Silences and those So many Cards-For-B.W. in my side... If I top-8 I'll see if I can make a litle report and reach some conclusions... I'm thinking in reducing to 1 the no of Silences in my base... in deed I don't want to loose vs Miracles... in here everybody seems to win that archetype.... maybe now I loose 1st games and win the rest vs Miracles as opposite in before experiences...

as said, Good Luck!!

[Bryant Cook]

https://scontent-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/p843x403/11148566_10153280951934704_1187679882266930730_o.jpg

My second send of cards to Pete Venters came back today! (I never heard anything back from anyone on the first send - if you're unaware of what happened, I basically received a blank envelope back and had to re-buy everything.)

[LDX]

Thank you Lemnear!

I guess I badly explained myself on the Bayou/Decay issue, but it doesn't matter any more. I should skip the Gemstone Mine, I'll get a third Decay, won't play Silence (your Silence point was really sharp), and I might check for a Bayou. I understand that your intent is to make the deck as best as possible for a general use and I think I might just go that way, even if some cards won't see plays.

To put it in other words, your explanations were global and not specific to the situation I'm in, but showed that what I was asking was wrong in itself. I shouldn't build the deck around my very specific meta, and I appreciate the insight.

Thanks again!

[Lemnear]

Thank you Lemnear!

I guess I badly explained myself on the Bayou/Decay issue, but it doesn't matter any more. I should skip the Gemstone Mine, I'll get a third Decay, won't play Silence (your Silence point was really sharp), and I might check for a Bayou. I understand that your intent is to make the deck as best as possible for a general use and I think I might just go that way, even if some cards won't see plays.

To put it in other words, your explanations were global and not specific to the situation I'm in, but showed that what I was asking was wrong in itself. I shouldn't build the deck around my very specific meta, and I appreciate the insight.

Thanks again!

Not a big deal, I'm here to help. Bayou is a step investment, so I thought it might be fair to explain in detail why it has the edge over Tropical for me and what makes the best MD for an unknown meta, which is the ultimate goal. You are sure free to adjust the deck to your personal needs and metagame which mainly includes the SB, so if there are no Chalice/Counterbalance in your meta, you can obviously reduce the number of Decays as a reaction. "I have only 2 Decays" is however no argument I can let count ;P

I hope that you understand that I have not the capacity to plow through metagame constellations and help you or other Sourcers building their specific SB for their local metagame. Bryant's OP with all the possible SB cards listed to choose from should be your first stop and if you don't see a point for Xantid in your local meta, then cut them for something which is more helpful from that list. I was just generally speaking about the SB and about Xantid/Decay in particular for Miracles/S&T to hint at those being mayor players in the format and in regards to the Bayou. Don't let that distract you from your own metagame choices. We're just used to speak and develop for unknown metagames and the SB in the OP just reflects the average unkniwn metagame constellation

[LDX]

I hope that you understand that I have not the capacity to plow through metagame constellations and help you or other Sourcers building their specific SB for their local metagame.

Of course :)

This is why this thread is one of the greatest among all Magic, I have not seen so many great minds work together to achieve a very specific, high end goal. It was a bit obnoxious from me to ask for a too specific case. Despite that, you took some time and explained me kindly. The final word was, I need to step up my game and be ready for anything, not just my meta. I prefer to go next level than be the best at a lower one :)

Hopefully next time my questions will help a bit more :P

[Lemnear]

Of course :)

This is why this thread is one of the greatest among all Magic, I have not seen so many great minds work together to achieve a very specific, high end goal. It was a bit obnoxious from me to ask for a too specific case. Despite that, you took some time and explained me kindly.

Don't call that "obnoxious". This is a normal thread after all and the purpose is to discuss and exchange. ;)


edit: Daddy needs a new Avatar ... :/
edit 2: done

[Bryant Cook]

Played in a local tonight. Went 3-1.

2-1 Mono-Green Chalice Aggro
2-0 Belcher
1-2 Lands (Mulled to five game two, was locked out by Loam + Waste - Game three had Ad Nauseam discarded, couldn't win through Crop Rotation for Bog/Tabernackle)
2-0 Reanimator (Two turn ones, first one with Therapy, second one with just Probe)

I had the third Mox upside down all night, it was stellar! I loved it almost every time. List felt very good, was even better using my newly signed cards. SO. MANY. GRAPESHOTS.

[paeng4983]

Just in case anyone cares, i posted my TR at the TR page of this site.
10-4-1 with TES at GP Kyoto 17-19 April 2015.

^_^

[sawatarix]

My report is up guys, check it out !


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29442-The-man-with-the-gun-TOP-4-GRAND-PRIX-KYOTO&p=879070#post879070

Kai

[Lemnear]

Just in case anyone cares, i posted my TR at the TR page of this site.
10-4-1 with TES at GP Kyoto 17-19 April 2015.

^_^

First: Congratulations!

One thing that bugs me in this report is that you missed out at least two times to check for your opponents hand (and ergo their deck) if you have a T1/2 combo by Duress or Probe to see how to board for game 2. I consider this a pretty big disadvantage compared to your opponents position for sideboarding. I also did not get the following:


I suddenly remembered Kai’s stat about the 40% thingy

[Bryant Cook]

Just in case anyone cares, i posted my TR at the TR page of this site.
10-4-1 with TES at GP Kyoto 17-19 April 2015.

^_^

Added to the opening post. Also, congrats!


I also did not get the following:

Maybe he's referring to the fact that the opponent only has roughly 40% to open a Force of Will in their initial seven?

[Lemnear]

Maybe he's referring to the fact that the opponent only has roughly 40% to open a Force of Will in their initial seven?

Makes no sense as the hand did not have business if I remember correctly. Maybe he meant my "40% Mana" statement instead :/

[paeng4983]

40% chance of of him having a Force of Will plus a pitch card in his opening seven or six.

@lem, Good Luck for GP Lilie!
:cool:
*cough* playmat top *cough*

[Lemnear]

When no one is watching TES wins a big tournament! Congratz to whereever you are

[H]

When no one is watching TES wins a big tournament! Congratz to whereever you are

Dustin is a friend of mine and we rode together to Dallas. He isn't a forum kind-of-guy, but if anyone has specific questions, I can ask him and pass on the answers.

On the list, he is a long time (all 3 years I have known him and I know he played it at least 1-2 years before that too) TES player, so he is pretty experienced. Almost all his matches were not even close though, as far as I recall, he only lost 3 games on the day (one was in the top 4 where he literally told his opponent to Reanimate Iona and name Red because he wouldn't be able to win through it).

[andrewgioia]

Dustin is a friend of mine and we rode together to Dallas. He isn't a forum kind-of-guy, but if anyone has specific questions, I can ask him and pass on the answers.

Congrats to Dustin on the win! I was hoping someone could post his sideboard as the SCG decklist (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84951) left it out for some reason, would you mind asking him for that? His list looks interesting.

[Lemnear]

Congrats to Dustin on the win! I was hoping someone could post his sideboard as the SCG decklist (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84951) left it out for some reason, would you mind asking him for that? His list looks interesting.

His SB was:


1 Tendrils, 1 Empty, 1 pif, 1 Infernal Tutor, 1 Massacre, 1 Pyroclasm, 2 Chain of Vapor, 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 carpet of flowers, 2 Xantid Swarm, 1 Tropical Island

He was kind to comment on the matter in the TES Facebook group. :)

Edit quoting Dustin:

Thanks for the add to the group. Here is deck and match results from my win in dallas.

Rd 1- bug delver 2-1
Rd 2- rw painter 2-1
Rd 3- aluren 2-1
Rd 4- uwr delver 2-0
Rd 5- ur delver 2-0
Rd 6- miracle 2-1
Rd 7 & 8 id
Top 8 - miracle 2-1
Top 4- reanimator 2-1
Top 2- ur delver splash white 2-0

[Ebonclaw]

Hey H, I was the other TES player that was hanging out with Dustin in Dallas between rounds; we ran into each other quite accidentally as I'd never met him before. I scrubbed out due to topdeck hero reanimator, but told him I'd be looking for him in top 8 after I left, so tell him congrats for me! He gave me some good tips. Of note, the two cabal rituals in place of the 3rd mox and pushing 1 IT to the 'board, and how good carpet of flowers was against delver. Also interesting was the mainboard Badlands. He mentioned he's been very happy with the manabase, but sometimes misses the versatility of Gemstone Mines. Also of note, his entire deck is Japanese except the FBB duals, it's really a classy, beautiful deck! I hope he attends GP Dallas so I have another TES player to chat with between rounds, you guys were really cool to hang with. BTW, Duress can't take Meddling Mage. :tongue:

[H]

Hey H, I was the other TES player that was hanging out with Dustin in Dallas between rounds; we ran into each other quite accidentally as I'd never met him before. I scrubbed out due to topdeck hero reanimator, but told him I'd be looking for him in top 8 after I left, so tell him congrats for me! He gave me some good tips. Of note, the two cabal rituals in place of the 3rd mox and pushing 1 IT to the 'board, and how good carpet of flowers was against delver. Also interesting was the mainboard Badlands. He mentioned he's been very happy with the manabase, but sometimes misses the versatility of Gemstone Mines. Also of note, his entire deck is Japanese except the FBB duals, it's really a classy, beautiful deck! I hope he attends GP Dallas so I have another TES player to chat with between rounds, you guys were really cool to hang with. BTW, Duress can't take Meddling Mage. :tongue:

I will let him know for you. I don't expect us to be going to the GP, none of us play Limited, Dustin only plays Legacy now.

I guess eventually the luck caught up to the Reanimator player, games two and three he had to mulligan and Dustin had strong openings that, even after Thoughtsiezes, let him strip any resistance from him.

When I heard about that Duress I literally face-palmed. Josh should have known better. In fact, I am pretty sure he actually does, so I don't know what even happened there...

[Ebonclaw]

I will let him know for you. I don't expect us to be going to the GP, none of us play Limited, Dustin only plays Legacy now.

I guess eventually the luck caught up to the Reanimator player, games two and three he had to mulligan and Dustin had strong openings that, even after Thoughtsiezes, let him strip any resistance from him.

When I heard about that Duress I literally face-palmed. Josh should have known better. In fact, I am pretty sure he actually does, so I don't know what even happened there...
I think he hadn'the slept for over 24 hours and just brain farted. I can't give him too much crap, he was nice enough to bum me a smoke. :)

[vercadium]

bum me a smoke

Let me guess - another American 'expression' I'm not familiar with...

[JPoJohnson]

Gave him a cigarette.

[Bryant Cook]

TES Website is live! It's still a work in progress, I have some things I need to do and some ideas for cool things. Feel free to message me with thoughts, ideas or ways to improve. Thanks!

http://www.theepicstorm.com/

PS. I will be deleting the OP of this thread in the upcoming weeks

[Bryant Cook]

This just in, we have to cut Infernal Tutor from our deck: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30870_SCG-Worcester-Legacy-Crash-Course-Part-II.html

[alaska]

This just in, we have to cut Infernal Tutor from our deck: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30870_SCG-Worcester-Legacy-Crash-Course-Part-II.html

Behind a paywall for me, but judging from comments, he claims that TES doesn't/can't run Infernal Tutor?

Well there's a head-scratcher.

[Spam]

This just in, we have to cut Infernal Tutor from our deck: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30870_SCG-Worcester-Legacy-Crash-Course-Part-II.html
So that's why my version didn't work!

[JPoJohnson]

It continues to shock me that people pay money for articles on Magic.

[ManCharm]

Hey all, sorry it took me so long to report. I played at the IQ in Dallas as well, missed my win and in for top 8 as follows:

BUG Delver 2-1
Mono Red Painter 2-0
Omnitell 2-1
Miracles 1-2
ANT 0-2
RW Painter 2-0
Food Griffin 2-0
Miracles 0-2

After realizing I was barely boarding for any matchups besides Miracles, I agree with Dustin's board changes to fight the miracles matchup, as the 3rd Xantid swarm is not as relevant in the Show and Tell and Reanimator matchups. The 3rd Abrupt Decay is occasionally valuable, but is 99% of the time fine because of the second Chain of Vapor.

Another note: I was not wastelanded once during the event. might be worth considering, depending on what you see in your area.

[Tokugawa]

Bryant Cook had 7-2 at SCG Open Worcester and advanced to Day2.

[JPoJohnson]

Don't judge me quite yet, still testing to the decklist that I like. Since I still run burning wish and Rite of Flame I still feel like this is closer to TES than ANT (Probably closest to TnT, but meh).

Anyways, would love feedback and thoughts on the decklist:


Lands (12)
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

Black (18)
1 AD Nauseam
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
3 Infernal Tutor (1 Sideboard Currently)
1 Tendrils of Agony

Red (8)
3 Burning Wish
1 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame

Blue (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Artifacts (10)
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
-----
Also, I currently have these cards listed in my possible sideboard and tweak it according to the meta of the tournament. Let me know if I'm missing any cards that would ever be side boarded:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grapeshot
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Telemin Performance
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tropical Island
1 Void Snare
3 Xantid Swarm


Thoughts:
* I've loved PiF in the 60. I've won many games after important spells are countered by draining their hand and storming through the graveyard.
* At 2 Mox, I've never had multiples and I've never been sad to see it. I like the count of 2.
* I had 2 VIslands originally, but found that there were several games where I was wanting black and drew both Islands and lacked black. Never had an issue with 6ish+ red sources to cast my spells.



STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS. Like I said, would love some feedback. (:

[Spam]

A very similar list of TES has won SCG Dallas. You might want to check it out. To me, the main ETW is still better than PiF, this because it allows us to have more turn one/two explosive hands.

[Lemnear]

Don't judge me quite yet, still testing to the decklist that I like. Since I still run burning wish and Rite of Flame I still feel like this is closer to TES than ANT (Probably closest to TnT, but meh).

Anyways, would love feedback and thoughts on the decklist:


Thoughts:
* I've loved PiF in the 60. I've won many games after important spells are countered by draining their hand and storming through the graveyard.
* At 2 Mox, I've never had multiples and I've never been sad to see it. I like the count of 2.
* I had 2 VIslands originally, but found that there were several games where I was wanting black and drew both Islands and lacked black. Never had an issue with 6ish+ red sources to cast my spells.

STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS. Like I said, would love some feedback. (:

I see what you are trying to do here, but don't see a reason to cut down actual fast business for game 1s like Burning Wishes for a long term plan of MB PIF/ToA. You don't run ToA in the SB anymore from what I have read and with your tutor configuration you suffer the same problems ANT has with their ANs to get access to ToA which are limited to flipping ToA itself or at least one remaining LED.

Bold statement: I don't think you need the PIF plan in game 1s ever. If I however consider the Goblin plan insufficient for postboard and really want the ANT capabilities, I board out EtW and one of my 4 MB Tutors and put in PIF + ToA, resulting into a total of 7 virtual Infernal Tutors to do the PIF loop without touching my MB configuration at all. But that's just me :)

The bigger issue that gives me headaches is that Miracles play more and more hatebears like Canonist/Meddling Mage and pair these with Wastelands.

[JPoJohnson]

I do have a ToA and PiF in the sideboard, I mistakenly left them off.

I hadn't seen Miracles run Wasteland, although I've seen a few with hatebears.... I'll have to look for those lists. I tried a swamp in there instead of Badlands and had two VIslands with two Seas. Fortunately I don't have many wasteland/moon decks in my area, but I'll definitely keep that in consideration should I attend a larger event.

[Lemnear]

I do have a ToA and PiF in the sideboard, I mistakenly left them off.

I hadn't seen Miracles run Wasteland, although I've seen a few with hatebears.... I'll have to look for those lists. I tried a swamp in there instead of Badlands and had two VIslands with two Seas. Fortunately I don't have many wasteland/moon decks in my area, but I'll definitely keep that in consideration should I attend a larger event.

Wastelands appeared as Boseijus became more popular in OmniTells and those maybe mark a future problem for running only a single green Source for casting Decays making me Ponder about a 2/2/2 split of duals in the 75 at the given time.

[Togores]

Wastelands appeared as Boseijus became more popular in OmniTells and those maybe mark a future problem for running only a single green Source for casting Decays making me Ponder about a 2/2/2 split of duals in the 75 at the given time.

Thats already a problem.
Had to slowroll lots of lands vs miracles testing with ant.
Its quite a problem that this happens... Hope dig is banned soon and we get to real life again.

[Lemnear]

Thats already a problem.
Had to slowroll lots of lands vs miracles testing with ant.
Its quite a problem that this happens... Hope dig is banned soon and we get to real life again.

so moving from Miracles & OmniTell to Miracles and SneakShow again?

[Togores]

so moving from Miracles & OmniTell to Miracles and SneakShow again?

Prefer it.
Less mages and cannonists
Les dig. When that card resolves is like cheating. Less slow control decks with wasteland. Less flusterstorm.
Seems legit.

[Bryant Cook]

At least with Sneak and Show, D&T is a deck. Which is nice, because I enjoy free wins.

[Bryant Cook]

Report from this weekend: http://www.theepicstorm.com/scgworcesterreport/

[wonderPreaux]

Earlier in the ANT thread, Jona and I have started recording sessions with Grinding Station, since it's sort of an off-beat variant of ANT. Since TES doesn't have a lot of MTGO presence, and a dearth of video content other than feature matches, I think it might be good to try and have some dual-commentated matches to highlight the finesse and the thought process of TES. Would any experienced players be interested in Skyping in with me and running TES through some dailies and would there be interest in content like that?

[Lemnear]

Earlier in the ANT thread, Jona and I have started recording sessions with Grinding Station, since it's sort of an off-beat variant of ANT. Since TES doesn't have a lot of MTGO presence, and a dearth of video content other than feature matches, I think it might be good to try and have some dual-commentated matches to highlight the finesse and the thought process of TES. Would any experienced players be interested in Skyping in with me and running TES through some dailies and would there be interest in content like that?

I can do. I tune in at times anyways, so it's not different from typing in the chat anyways. Only thing to mind for scheduling (don't know MTGO Legacy daily times anyways) is that I'm off for a wedding the upcoming weekend and will not return before monday evening

edit: maybe we can even gather a roundtable for the rounds with several peeps in the Skype-conference

[ManCharm]

I wouldn't mind participating in a Skype round table. It'd be rad to have some more tenured players in the chat as well, like Lem here.

[d0nkey]

I wouldn't mind participating in a Skype round table. It'd be rad to have some more tenured players in the chat as well, like Lem here.

This needs to happen

[Lemnear]

Back from the wedding. Feel free to hit me via PM, Facebook or twitter for schedule

[Asthereal]

Don't forget to post the schedule here and in the FB group.

I'd like to join in, even though I haven't touched TES in four months. I might be able to add something here and there.

[Lemnear]

The format is damn blue-centric atm that I really consider picking up Mainboard Carpet of Flowers...

[Bryant Cook]

The format is damn blue-centric atm that I really consider picking up Mainboard Carpet of Flowers...

I get the thought process, but why would they be any better than Rain of Filth or Cabal Ritual?

EDIT: It would certainly help with the tempo matchups. Cutting some number of Moxen for Carpets and a Tropical over the Swamp (Switching Mires to Mistys).

[Lemnear]

I get the thought process, but why would they be any better than Rain of Filth or Cabal Ritual?

possibly permanent mana to work with and also more flexible in colors. The idea behind the three cards is a similar one with Carpet being better in multiples than Rain

[Bryant Cook]

The problem that I see with this is that it goes against the TES philosophy of speed.

[sawatarix]

cabal Ritual and Rain are still on-colour.
If the format really demands Carpets main (which couldn't be right in my opinion) you need to run rainbow lands. It is nearly impossible to support 4 colours main with dual lands. I took Tes on a tournament right after GP Kyoto and I lost to many games because I got colour blocked.

[Spam]

The problem that I see with this is that it goes against the TES philosophy of speed.
Speed is the only thing keeping us alive in this meta imo. Against the top tiers I find myself going belcher mode all the time. They have so many cantrips and counters that, after turn three, their hand is really hard to break.

[Shaman]

I suppose Belcher is much better in going belcher mode. That means you should ask if TES is still your best choice.

[Lemnear]

I suppose Belcher is much better in going belcher mode. That means you should ask if TES is still your best choice.

The deck is sitting between chairs of a metagame in which 75% of all decks run FoW & 82% Brainstorm (which are able to drag out the game where TES lacks the punch) and cards like Thalia/DTT/Counterbalance/MeddlingMage/etc. which needs to be raced/can be beaten with the Belcher mode before them being played.

You pick your poison for storm deckbuilding atm ranging from 3 Mox TES to ANT losing to one or the other end of the spectrum you possibly face. For me it's a sheer numbers game to decide. If the mayority of times the game goes to turn 3+ thanks to opposing defence and the number of deck you can best with pure speed vanishes, a deckkbuiding focus on speed is questionable

[Pelikanudo]

The format is damn blue-centric atm that I really consider picking up Mainboard Carpet of Flowers...

Well I need to strongly disagree on this.

Some reasons:

if you are on the play Carpet produces 0 mana
if your opponent does not play blue it produces 0 mana.
you clearly loose speed against non blue decks and it is a useless card - I think you can not afford to play useless cards in a Storm Deck
Against Agro is not as super good as you need the Opp. plays 3 Blue Sources to make it work as Dark Ritual
is not effective until 2 blue mana is landed, at this point, it is like a RoF - not as good.

I like TES by its ability to go off when it is needed by doing so, you just extirpate this quality from TES.

Apart, I have questions to the New TES Manabase - Bryant:

- I just would like to know if having 11 Blue producers instead of 12 made you loose or provoke some ankward scenarios of a need of blue mana. (I mean that 7 fetches 1 Swamp, 1 bayou 2 volcanic 2 U.Sea manabase)

As talking to Lem some time before:
- go below 7 discard makes you worse vs Miracles
- go below 4 I.T. makes you less quick
- go below 3 C.M. makes you less quick

So my initial idea was that the less worse option was to move to 13 lands and -1 discard (as you did Bryant!) and as I still dont like it I still play 12 manabase with gemstones. and still 7 discards.
So my first question is:
have you tryed :
a) 8 fetches 2 Sea 2 Volcanic 1 Swamp
b) 8 fetches 2 Sea 2 Volcanic 1 Bayou

Which of these mana bases preferred and why?
I really do not see any reason to play 2 Non Blue producers in TES.

[Lemnear]

Well I need to strongly disagree on this.

Some reasons:

if you are on the play Carpet produces 0 mana
if your opponent does not play blue it produces 0 mana.
you clearly loose speed against non blue decks and it is a useless card - I think you can not afford to play useless cards in a Storm Deck
Against Agro is not as super good as you need the Opp. plays 3 Blue Sources to make it work as Dark Ritual
is not effective until 2 blue mana is landed, at this point, it is like a RoF - not as good.

I like TES by its ability to go off when it is needed by doing so, you just extirpate this quality from TES.

Apart, I have questions to the New TES Manabase - Bryant:

- I just would like to know if having 11 Blue producers instead of 12 made you loose or provoke some ankward scenarios of a need of blue mana. (I mean that 7 fetches 1 Swamp, 1 bayou 2 volcanic 2 U.Sea manabase)

As talking to Lem some time before:
- go below 7 discard makes you worse vs Miracles
- go below 4 I.T. makes you less quick
- go below 3 C.M. makes you less quick

So my initial idea was that the less worse option was to move to 13 lands and -1 discard (as you did Bryant!) and as I still dont like it I still play 12 manabase with gemstones. and still 7 discards.
So my first question is:
have you tryed :
a) 8 fetches 2 Sea 2 Volcanic 1 Swamp
b) 8 fetches 2 Sea 2 Volcanic 1 Bayou

Which of these mana bases preferred and why?
I really do not see any reason to play 2 Non Blue producers in TES.


Mox w/o imprint is 0 mana, Cabal Ritual w/o two initial mana produces 0 mana. What's the point? The format is +80% blue atm so Carpet is actually producing mana in all matchup which deliver any resistance and it's a permanent manasource. With two Islands on your opponents side it's a colored Sol Ring, with three is a Black Lotus every round and even with just one Island it's a manastone. I have no idea why I seriously have to point out the difference between a Ritual effect and having the mana available each round. The logic of "you can't afford to run useless cards" is Alien to me as you already run Duress and can face creature decks like D&T in a tournament. Do you suggest running without discard due to that logic? No, you run MB discard because the metagame is full of counters and are ok with shuffling them away or imprinting them in a Mox if you play against non-blue. How is that any different to Carpet?

I don't get the point about talking about the manabase now. The topic was talked to death and I doubt anyone is interrested in going through all the same stuff again and again. He reasons for the manabase were presented several times and Bryant is not the guy wasting time to convince people dropping their 12-Lands manabase with Rainbows especially as the deck isn't running Bayou AND Swamp Maindeck. Seriously, you are making too many waves over the difference between 13 lands with 1-2 non blue sources and 12 all-blue producing lands in terms of mana-stability. I bet I have at least three times pointed out the advantage of additional shuffle effects and the lands not depleting from counters and destroying themselves while your try to cantrip/disrupt into a favorable position. If those are not enough reason for you to drop Gemstones, I am wasting my time here too

[Asthereal]

I don't get the point about talking about the manabase now. The topic was talked to death and I doubt anyone is interrested in going through all the same stuff again and again. He reasons for the manabase were presented several times and Bryant is not the guy wasting time to convince people dropping their 12-Lands manabase with Rainbows especially as the deck isn't running Bayou AND Swamp Maindeck. Seriously, you are making too many waves over the difference between 13 lands with 1-2 non blue sources and 12 all-blue producing lands in terms of mana-stability. I bet I have at least three times pointed out the advantage of additional shuffle effects and the lands not depleting from counters and destroying themselves while your try to cantrip/disrupt into a favorable position. If those are not enough reason for you to drop Gemstones, I am wasting my time here too

I have to disagree here. The mana base as it is now is quite new, and it's shaky to say the least, so it should always be open to discussion. Right after we dropped Silence, I remember you argueing that we should probably always keep a few Rainbow lands in since we still needed three colours, which is not easy for a 12-land deck.

On the first two turns, a Gemstone Mine is still strictly better than any Dual. Of course it sucks that it runs out, but we have been happy playing it for over five years regardless. But we also need to think about other aspects of the mana base. For instance: why run basics if we are going to run only one anyway? They just Waste all our other lands, and leave us with only B to work with. No cantrips to cast, no Wishes or Rites. Yes, I know we have Petals for that, but if we had unlimited access to Lotus Petal, we'd probably run 9 fetch, 1 Sea, 1 swamp and 1 island as mana base. I personally feel that playing only one basic makes little sense. I still run a non-basic base in TES and I still like it.

But, if you hate Gemstone Mine, allow me to present an alternative. Since pure aggro (Burn/Zoo/old Eva Green) is close to being extinct in competitive Legacy, our life points don't deplete as fast as they used to. Maybe it's time to reintroduce City of Brass (or in this case it's improved reprint, which I conveniently forgot the name of - I need to sleep more).

This looks nice:
2 City of Brass 2.0
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
6 Fetch /13

[seilaquem]

I have to disagree here. The mana base as it is now is quite new, and it's shaky to say the least, so it should always be open to discussion. Right after we dropped Silence, I remember you argueing that we should probably always keep a few Rainbow lands in since we still needed three colours, which is not easy for a 12-land deck.

On the first two turns, a Gemstone Mine is still strictly better than any Dual. Of course it sucks that it runs out, but we have been happy playing it for over five years regardless. But we also need to think about other aspects of the mana base. For instance: why run basics if we are going to run only one anyway? They just Waste all our other lands, and leave us with only B to work with. No cantrips to cast, no Wishes or Rites. Yes, I know we have Petals for that, but if we had unlimited access to Lotus Petal, we'd probably run 9 fetch, 1 Sea, 1 swamp and 1 island as mana base. I personally feel that playing only one basic makes little sense. I still run a non-basic base in TES and I still like it.

But, if you hate Gemstone Mine, allow me to present an alternative. Since pure aggro (Burn/Zoo/old Eva Green) is close to being extinct in competitive Legacy, our life points don't deplete as fast as they used to. Maybe it's time to reintroduce City of Brass (or in this case it's improved reprint, which I conveniently forgot the name of - I need to sleep more).

This looks nice:
2 City of Brass 2.0
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
6 Fetch /13

Mana confluence.

However, it still leaves tes vulnerable to wastelands. But it os a cool alternative, considering non agro metas

[Lemnear]

I have to disagree here. The mana base as it is now is quite new, and it's shaky to say the least, so it should always be open to discussion. Right after we dropped Silence, I remember you argueing that we should probably always keep a few Rainbow lands in since we still needed three colours, which is not easy for a 12-land deck.

Gemstones got replaced the moment we increased the landcount and the number of non-blue matchups dropped into oblivion. The point of Gemstones were to give you all the flexibility in the early turns, but of the metagame shifts away from being able to win via Belcher-Mode and you get slower down by taxing effects/counters and Wasteland, a land that slowly kills itself isn't helping you to Dismember your opponent over turns. Mind we're no longer talking about 11 or 12 lands we hand end of 2013 which marked the end of Silence. We can't win off a single land anymore in most cases and that turns the advantages of Rainbows Ad absurdum


On the first two turns, a Gemstone Mine is still strictly better than any Dual. Of course it sucks that it runs out, but we have been happy playing it for over five years regardless. But we also need to think about other aspects of the mana base. For instance: why run basics if we are going to run only one anyway? They just Waste all our other lands, and leave us with only B to work with. No cantrips to cast, no Wishes or Rites. Yes, I know we have Petals for that, but if we had unlimited access to Lotus Petal, we'd probably run 9 fetch, 1 Sea, 1 swamp and 1 island as mana base. I personally feel that playing only one basic makes little sense. I still run a non-basic base in TES and I still like it.

This is tricky. There are plenty of situations where you Brainstorm turn 2 and want to fetch afterwards to adjust your hand. Gemstone leads you to either not being able to fetch at all if you run them instead of Fetchlands or make Wasteland decisions far too easy as your opponent can sit out the Gemstone counters at times. The point why Bryant runs the sole Swamp is that you fetch the Volcanic on demand only so you have always access to BR with two IMS without ever getting interrupted by Wasteland.


But, if you hate Gemstone Mine, allow me to present an alternative. Since pure aggro (Burn/Zoo/old Eva Green) is close to being extinct in competitive Legacy, our life points don't deplete as fast as they used to. Maybe it's time to reintroduce City of Brass (or in this case it's improved reprint, which I conveniently forgot the name of - I need to sleep more).

If I'd spend a lifepoint I don't see why it should to be for City instead for a fetch in favor of improved cantrips. We have to prepare for longer games instead of racing Aggro and there Fetches really shine compared to Rainbows.

[Bryant Cook]

Just a warning: All information has been removed from the opening post and has been replaced with the information to find the website and social media pages.

[CabalTherapy]

Just a warning: All information has been removed from the opening post and has been replaced with the information to find the website and social media pages.

In fact, a sad development.
By the way, I hope you know that "designed" and "created" are synonyms thus kind of redundant in a descriptive utterance. It's like a tutor chain with synonyms. :wink:
I can recommend the thesaurus for searching purpose. xD http://www.thesaurus.com/
(Please, don't read any negative attitude into my comment as I certainly support any kind of Storm deck.)

[Ebonclaw]

I agree with the reasoning behind cutting Gemstones to a fair extent. Which is kind of unfortunate after I just got a foil playset, but it is what it is I suppose. One thing I do think I will miss from rainbow lands is the consistency of access to G for T1 Xantid/Carpet after postboard however, and the assistance they provide when casting Abrupt Decay and these are such important sideboard cards to stick if they're in your opener that I feel this is the largest drawback to cutting them. Gemstone I don't think necessarily has to be a 4x or 0x, maybe I'll try a manabase running it as a 2x- I think both manabases still have their own merits but I'm starting to lean more heavily after reading the above posts that the number might be needing to be decreased to some degree, or, as the most experienced players have done, cut altogether. I do like the mana flexibility offered, though, and some opponents are hesitant to wasteland a land that they see will blow itself up anyway eventually.

Also, I might try the 1x Carpet main, it doesn't sound like the worst idea in the world, and Lemnear makes a very valid point that sometimes your discard effects are equally susceptible to being blanks. Where does this get slotted Lem? In place of a discard effect to not increase the number of cards that are occasionally "off" or in the place of a mox or other permanent mana source to keep the discard package full?
Adding a single card that is mono green adds to my desire to ensure or at least assist the ability to produce G on T1 without impacting speed or life; Gemstone Mine is still the card that does this job well. Plus, if you stick carpet, I'm probably just fine with Gemstones blowing themselves up eventually if the game goes that long.

[Lemnear]

One thing I do think I will miss from rainbow lands is the consistency of access to G for T1 Xantid/Carpet after postboard however, and the assistance they provide when casting Abrupt Decay and these are such important sideboard cards to stick if they're in your opener that I feel this is the largest drawback to cutting them.

There is a reason for 7-8 Fetches and a Bayou postboard. The access to green mana turn 1 on demand is significantly greater than with Gemstones. T1 U.Sea + Cantrip into T2 Fetch for Bayou -> Duress/Xantid/Decay/Therapy is easy to achieve even without Gemstones.


Gemstone I don't think necessarily has to be a 4x or 0x, maybe I'll try a manabase running it as a 2x- I think both manabases still have their own merits but I'm starting to lean more heavily after reading the above posts that the number might be needing to be decreased to some degree, or, as the most experienced players have done, cut altogether. I do like the mana flexibility offered, though, and some opponents are hesitant to wasteland a land that they see will blow itself up anyway eventually.

correct. Getting out of Wasteland/Daze range is a lot easier with sitting on fetches than playing with lands which are exposed to Wasteland, blow themselves up and harm your cantripping


Also, I might try the 1x Carpet main, it doesn't sound like the worst idea in the world, and Lemnear makes a very valid point that sometimes your discard effects are equally susceptible to being blanks. Where does this get slotted Lem?

The comment from me was just in regards to the fact that this deck has to deal with "blanks" anyways and situational cards are not that bad in general. I have not done real testing with them, as it was just brainstorming but I would cut around the 7th discard, the 4th infernal, the second & third Mox for example so try them maindeck. We have some dear storm pilots who managed to free MB slots for Cabal Rituals or Rain of Filth as well, so I think these slots are interchangable. Just have in mind that you need to run the Bayou instead of the MB swamp


In place of a discard effect to not increase the number of cards that are occasionally "off" or in the place of a mox or other permanent mana source to keep the discard package full?
Adding a single card that is mono green adds to my desire to ensure or at least assist the ability to produce G on T1 without impacting speed or life; Gemstone Mine is still the card that does this job well. Plus, if you stick carpet, I'm probably just fine with Gemstones blowing themselves up eventually if the game goes that long.

Again: 7-8 Fetches + Bayou >> 4 Gemstones for casting T1 Carpets

[Pelikanudo]

Mox w/o imprint is 0 mana, Cabal Ritual w/o two initial mana produces 0 mana. What's the point? The format is +80% blue atm so Carpet is actually producing mana in all matchup which deliver any resistance and it's a permanent manasource. With two Islands on your opponents side it's a colored Sol Ring, with three is a Black Lotus every round and even with just one Island it's a manastone. I have no idea why I seriously have to point out the difference between a Ritual effect and having the mana available each round. The logic of "you can't afford to run useless cards" is Alien to me as you already run Duress and can face creature decks like D&T in a tournament. Do you suggest running without discard due to that logic? No, you run MB discard because the metagame is full of counters and are ok with shuffling them away or imprinting them in a Mox if you play against non-blue. How is that any different to Carpet?

I don't get the point about talking about the manabase now. The topic was talked to death and I doubt anyone is interrested in going through all the same stuff again and again. He reasons for the manabase were presented several times and Bryant is not the guy wasting time to convince people dropping their 12-Lands manabase with Rainbows especially as the deck isn't running Bayou AND Swamp Maindeck. Seriously, you are making too many waves over the difference between 13 lands with 1-2 non blue sources and 12 all-blue producing lands in terms of mana-stability. I bet I have at least three times pointed out the advantage of additional shuffle effects and the lands not depleting from counters and destroying themselves while your try to cantrip/disrupt into a favorable position. If those are not enough reason for you to drop Gemstones, I am wasting my time here too

Well,

I really didnt want to convice or to give any reasoning to run or not to run gemstones, for me 4 gemstones is a must in a 12 lands build, as
a. I want to run 7 disruption effects
b. want the most chances to get my initial mana requirements
c. do not want to run less than 8 tutor effects.

well Ill stop to discuss this, I just was asking a more specific question to the mana base about bayou and swamp which was answered and yes this has been discussing to death so I wont discuss this anymore.

Apart, regarding Carpet and the reasoning about the example you posted about C.M.

I believe that a Storm deck NEEDS to run 6 to 7 disruption, and this disruption package can have useless cards vs diff. decks. if your meta is for example 70 percent hatebears I would package then instead of duress T.Seize. or even CoV, What I cant agree on is in replacing C.M OR RoF OR any mana producer BY carpet of flawers, I could replace maybe duress for that, but never C.M., as C.M is a guarranteed mana source for ALL match ups we could face. maybe that is the idea - to replace duress for carpet - this doesnt sound to me non sense. but you can not compare any of the mana source we currently have to carpet for the reason Im mentioning. I think speed is a matter in TES. at least I still have to face Pox, lands and hatebears...

EDIT well you mentioned that the deck isnt running bayou AND swamp anymore, I saw the Web Site and still runs both maindeck, where this has been changed? I have limited access to facebook ritgh now...

[Bryant Cook]

Post-SCGWOR Sideboard Developments - Read More » (http://www.theepicstorm.com/post-scgwor-sideboard-developments/)

[Lemnear]

Well,

I really didnt want to convice or to give any reasoning to run or not to run gemstones, for me 4 gemstones is a must in a 12 lands build, as
a. I want to run 7 disruption effects
b. want the most chances to get my initial mana requirements
c. do not want to run less than 8 tutor effects.

...which ignores the question, if it's wise to run only 12 lands in the first place in a metagame with 75%+ decks running FoW and potentially slowing you down anyways, so the 1-land-hand isn't a good starting grip at all in most cases and especially with Brainstorm involved. Your point b) got already adressed: Fetchlands and Bayou deliver a lot more density for T1 green mana than Gemstones. The ONLY advantage a Gemstone has is, that if it's paired with another black Dual, you can cast eot Decay -> mainphase Ritual+RoF off two lands. The points a) & c) have no direct relevance for the landbase you discuss, so I'm not sure why you bring them up, nor why those should weight more than the cantrip quality.

In general and for other users as well: The reason why TES is even still a deck in this blue-centric metagame and has no been totally replaced by ANT and it's superior lategame potential is that the average opposing clock is pretty slow and AN is usually still fine if cast turn 3 or 4 unlike in the TC era, which sure also has an impact on EtWs relative power compared to AN. The decks speed advantage these days is mainly relevant against Thalia, Hymn, Counterbalance and DTT. Non-blue decks online are <16% atm. Keep that in mind.


Apart, regarding Carpet and the reasoning about the example you posted about C.M.

I believe that a Storm deck NEEDS to run 6 to 7 disruption, and this disruption package can have useless cards vs diff. decks. if your meta is for example 70 percent hatebears I would package then instead of duress T.Seize. or even CoV, What I cant agree on is in replacing C.M OR RoF OR any mana producer BY carpet of flawers, I could replace maybe duress for that, but never C.M., as C.M is a guarranteed mana source for ALL match ups we could face. maybe that is the idea - to replace duress for carpet - this doesnt sound to me non sense. but you can not compare any of the mana source we currently have to carpet for the reason Im mentioning. I think speed is a matter in TES. at least I still have to face Pox, lands and hatebears...

Mox guarentees NO mana if you don't have imprint and if you have it's a two-card investment for a single mana in the color of your imprint, while Carpet has the potential to generate several mana of your choice each turn for only an one-card-investment. Apples and Oranges. It's like trying to compare Mox and Cabal Ritual with you pointing at potenial graveyard hate rendering CR useless. Again: We're talking about a metagame with 80%+ blue decks and not Pox or Lands in that dimension, otherwise I would play Belcher instead.


EDIT well you mentioned that the deck isnt running bayou AND swamp anymore, I saw the Web Site and still runs both maindeck, where this has been changed? I have limited access to facebook ritgh now...

In my defence, Bryant is switching a lot forth and back for testing and not everything whats currently on the mainpage is necessarily the result of a consense of testing, ideas, philosophy or even the current state of the art, as you can see in regards to the SB article released yesterday, as the switches weren't immediately transfered to the frontpage for obvious reasons. Consider to not name the frontpage list your sole base for discussion. If I just take the manabases of you, Dustin, Bryant and me as examples, one can see how different the ideas can be (Rainbows/CabalRituals/Moxen/Rains).

[Ebonclaw]

There is a reason for 7-8 Fetches and a Bayou postboard. The access to green mana turn 1 on demand is significantly greater than with Gemstones. T1 U.Sea + Cantrip into T2 Fetch for Bayou -> Duress/Xantid/Decay/Therapy is easy to achieve even without Gemstones.



correct. Getting out of Wasteland/Daze range is a lot easier with sitting on fetches than playing with lands which are exposed to Wasteland, blow themselves up and harm your cantripping



The comment from me was just in regards to the fact that this deck has to deal with "blanks" anyways and situational cards are not that bad in general. I have not done real testing with them, as it was just brainstorming but I would cut around the 7th discard, the 4th infernal, the second & third Mox for example so try them maindeck. We have some dear storm pilots who managed to free MB slots for Cabal Rituals or Rain of Filth as well, so I think these slots are interchangable. Just have in mind that you need to run the Bayou instead of the MB swamp



Again: 7-8 Fetches + Bayou >> 4 Gemstones for casting T1 Carpets

Thank you for your input Lem, I always learn a lot from your posts and you back your thoughts very well; I should like to try the Bayou manabase, I had tried the manabase featuring basic island and swamp and hated it, but I think I'll like the Bayou build. I probably would have noticed this from looking at the manabase a little more closely, but sometimes I miss the forest/swamp for the trees.....

[Lemnear]

Thank you for your input Lem, I always learn a lot from your posts and you back your thoughts very well; I should like to try the Bayou manabase, I had tried the manabase featuring basic island and swamp and hated it, but I think I'll like the Bayou build. I probably would have noticed this from looking at the manabase a little more closely, but sometimes I miss the forest/swamp for the trees.....

Are you in the Facebook group? If not: Hello! ;) (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1060019600691940/)

[Darklingske]

Last weekend I played TES in a GPT. I went 2-3. The MU:
R1 Belcher 1-2
I lost the die roll...
R2 BUGDelver 2-0
G1 he had a hand without counters, G2 I had the discard.
R3 ANT 0-2
I lost the die roll again and had to mulligan to 6 & 5. He was a bit faster then me.
R4 Miracles 2-1
G2 was extra long, but I won with a nice chain with PiF.
R5 Infect 1-2
Lost the die roll again and G3 mull to 5. G3 I tried to bounce his critter in response to the lethal Berserk, but he had the counter.

I don't know. The deck never gave me awesome hands and I had to mulligan a lot. Sideboarding was done with Bryant's guide and it felt very good.

[Lemnear]

I'm always VERY interrested if players mull a lot and especially going down to 5 as I usually keep the first playable hand and have a very low mulligan rate myself. Do you have taken notes or remember some of the starting hands you threw away? I would like to discuss the matter :)

[Bryant Cook]

I'm always VERY interrested if players mull a lot and especially going down to 5 as I usually keep the first playable hand and have a very low mulligan rate myself. Do you have taken notes or remember some of the starting hands you threw away? I would like to discuss the matter :)

I'm with Lem, I don't mulligan that often.

[Togores]

I also dont mull.
I do think ppl mull too agresively trying to get hands that go of fast instead of making setups.
Usualy in the dark if you can play your hand more or less dont mull.

[Lemnear]

I also dont mull.
I do think ppl mull too agresively trying to get hands that go of fast instead of making setups.
Usualy in the dark if you can play your hand more or less dont mull.

I suspect, the mathematical myth of "mulling into a faster hand", is still widespread

P.S. a personal request: Would you guys mind using my name or complete username instead of "Lem" or shortings alike? Gives me itches like calling Bryant "Brian" or writing "Rod" if talking about Togores. You have my thanks

[Pelikanudo]

I'm always VERY interrested if players mull a lot and especially going down to 5 as I usually keep the first playable hand and have a very low mulligan rate myself. Do you have taken notes or remember some of the starting hands you threw away? I would like to discuss the matter :)

I almost never mull.
EDIT: Ok... I'll say Lemnear, sure Lem is what your girlfriend (or boyfriend) names you...

[Lemnear]

I almost never mull.
EDIT: Ok... I'll say Lemnear, sure Lem is what your girlfriend (or boyfriend) names you...

I suspect something would be very wrong if my girlfriend calls me by my forum name ;)

[Darklingske]

I didn't keep notes, but if I remember it right, I mulled twice because no lands or petals at all. Once because there were 4 lands in hand together with 2 Infernals & an empty. One game I lost I kept a one-lander along with double Brainstorm and a ponder. Unfortunately, I never saw a second land and brainstormlocked myself.

[LDX]

Hey there,

First off, that might be long and confused: I still haven’t slept, and I’m still under shock of my painful losses. I apologized in advance.

Just came back from a weekly event, ended 2-2. I’m very slowly trying to understand what’s going wrong whenever I play TES, as my win rate is much lower than with any other deck. No, it’s not a difficult meta, it’s completely me as a player. I need help. No judgment, please, but yes, I’m ashamed.

After tonight, I can say that the matches I win, I win turn 1 or turn 2. I don’t ever remember a win pass turn 3 with the deck, usually, my hand just get shredded. It could also be that my main was to practice is to goldfish, so I’m not used to have any opposition. Oh well.

I’m playing Bryant’s list from 05/20, with the exception of 3 Thoughtseize instead of 3 Xantid Swarm in the side. I don’t have any blue deck in my meta, no Reanimator, no Omnitell, Sneak and Show, or Miracles. Nothing.
Before going to sleep, I would like to clear my mind on two things, the first being the start of a game I played.


Game 2, Match 1. TES (me) vs Blue Manaless Dredge (Alexe)

I won first game rather easily, getting a turn 1 Tendrils after Ad Nauseam. Since she’s Manaless Dredge, I’m on the play the second game too. I boarded out Empty the Warren and 2x Ponder to bring in the 3x Thoughtseize.

My opening is, as far I as I remember, something like this:
Underground Sea, Duress, LED, Ad Nauseam, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Therapy

My turn 1 is the following: Underground > Duress.

Her hand shows the following: Mindbreak Trap, Disrupting Shoal, Dread Return, Narcomoeba, Whirlpool Rider, Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian.

My first mistake, I think. I take out Disrupting Shoal instead of Mindbreak Trap, because I’m afraid for my tutor, thinking I’ll be able to get rid of the Mindbreak Trap with a Burning Wish > Thoughtseize. First, I shouldn’t be afraid for my tutor since I have two, second, I boarded all my Thoughtseize anyway. Is my correction correct, is my first play good at all if I take out the Mindbreak Trap?

At her turn, she can’t put a card in the grave since she doesn’t have 8 cards in hand. I draw a Polluted Delta. I play the Delta, go for an Underground Sea. I Cabal Therapy right away, naming Whirlpool Rider, for some unknown reason. I mean, I’m, as I’m writing this, watching the recorded game. I just don’t understand why I didn’t get the Mindbreak Trap, especially with the Disrupting Shoal gone. The whole point was to get her not to use her grave, so I don’t think discarding was the wrong choice, but what I discard was horrid. That would cost me game 3 at least.


Actually, here is a list of the plays.

Turn 1 LDX: Underground Sea > Duress
Alexe reveal MBT, Dread Return, Disrupting Shoal, Narco, Whirlpool Rider, Golgari Grave Troll. A bad card
Duress = Disrupting Shoal

Turn 1 Alexe: Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 2 LDX: Polluted Delta to Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy = Whirlpool Rider

Turn 2 Alexe; Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 3 LDX: Cabal Therapy = Mindbreak Trap

Turn 3 Alexe: Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 4 LDX: Draws a fetch, goes for Volcanic. Goes Infernal Tutor, shows LED.

Turn 4 Alexe: End of her turn, she gets to put a Grave Troll in her grave.

Turn 5 LDX: I draw a land and play a fetch, that’s my 4th land. Now I panic since I couldn’t win despite my disruption. I play 2 LEDs, pay for Burning Wish to reach Empty the Warren, but hold priority to crack BOTH LEDS instead of just one. I only needed the mana of one, but I cracked two, yet I don’t think this is my biggest mistake. It doesn’t seem like going for 8 goblins at this stage of the game was worth it. At all. At the very worst, I guess, I could have casted that second Burning Wish to add a Storm counter, pick up, let’s say, Grapeshot, not play it yet but have it in hand. That would have been 2 more Goblins in play and I would have won the game in the following turns, as it shows.

Turn 5 Alexe: She Dredges her Grave Troll for 6. She passes the turn, drops a Neither Shadow in her grave by the end of her turn.

Turn 6 LDX: Attack with 8 golbins.

Turn 6 Alexe: Dredges for 6

Turn 7 LDX: Attacks for 8.

Turn 7 Alexe: Brings back Nether Shadow, Nether Shadow, Ichorid. Dredges for 5. She attacks for 5. I block nothing as all my goblins are tapped, but I guess I should have left one untapped to block, die, and get rid of the Bridges.
Cabal Therapy on me. I respond Brainstorm. She sees Ponder&Duress. She has 3 Bridges from Below in the grave at that point, so she gets 3 zombies. Then again, she casts an other Cabal Therapy on me, getting rid of my Ponder, an
other 3 zombies. Ichorid leaves play, an other 3 zombies. She has 9 untapped zombie ready for me at my turn.

Turn 8 LDX: Draws, I don’t attack. I have 8 goblins, she has 9 zombies. Nothing to do in this game anymore.

Now what could I have done better? Wait longer to go off? Try to reach Ad Nauseam instead of Burning Wish? Should I have went for Tendrils instead of Goblins? I totally feels like I had this game and was ripped. Moreover, it feels like I know the solution to it, but I just can’t figure it all out. Game 3 was also a loss, but mostly because I named Disrupting Shoal instead of Mindbreak Trap. It was an easy spotted mistake, my bad, that won’t happen again. However, for this game 2… I don’t know. I just don’t know.


Game 2/3 vs Pox, The Gate or any mass discard deck

The other thing I need some thoughts on is, how to beat black controlish decks like Pox (BG) and The Gate. I’ve played the guy twice, once he was with Pox, today, with The Gate. I always win the first game because of an easy combo turn 1 or 2, before he does anything to me.

Then we sideboard. I removed an Empty the Warren for a Tendrils of Agony, because I know he has mass removal just for me. He leads with Turn 1 Cabal Therapy on Tutors (or Inquisition of Kozlilek), Turn 2 Hymn to Tourach, and at this point I’m way too behind. I can never lift back up after so much discard.

Game 3, I keep the same sideboard changes. I can’t win turn 1, nor turn 2. Quick question there, do I use my own discard first, or do I use cantrips already? Obviously, implying I can’t win right away. Them, do I drop all my 0 mana artifacts just to avoid the discard, despite the fear of Phyrexian Revoker, the lack of Storm counter, and the fatal Hymn to Tourach on the rest of my hand?

All the time, the same two situation happens: I either can’t go at all, or can only go for a small number of goblins that either gets removed or that can’t trade with his own Jitte-equipped Vampire Nighthawks, or Mishra’s Factory.
Against him, I’m mostly looking for general advices vs so much discard. I don’t have a specific situation and wil try to report better next week, hopefully with a better camera angle so that I can see everything that happens and relates better.

Thank you very much for this time, hope it wasn’t too long!

TL;DR: 1) How could I win the reported game 2) General advice on how to beat Pox/TheGate/Heavy Discard decks?

[vercadium]

P.S. a personal request: Would you guys mind using my name or complete username instead of "Lem" or shortings alike? Gives me itches like calling Bryant "Brian" or writing "Rod" if talking about Togores. You have my thanks

I deviate between 'Peter' and 'Lemnear'. Do you have a preference?

Very excited for GP Lille in a few weeks! I'm attending a GPT for it tomorrow in Dublin; hopefully it goes well!

I'm giving Carpet of Flowers a go (again). Hopefully they don't suck this time. Seems every time we attempt to use the card, it stays in the sideboard for about a month, then we all reach a consensus to cut it.

As an aside, the basic swamp has been "ok-ish". It's been pretty good on some occasions and it's certainly rarely "bad" (I don't find myself "colour-screwed" much with proper usage). However, the situations were it is both A) More relevant than a dual would have been and B) able to be fetched without restricting our access to needed colours, are less frequent than I expected when I began using the card.

That said, The combination of Swamp + Volcanic Island has been superb. But with so many green cards in my current sideboard, I have definitely contemplated another green source (most likely Tropical Island) to introduce a little redundancy instead. Rolling with the stock set-up for the moment though.

Take it easy folks!

[vercadium]

...[Your post]...

Hi LDX!

I've written a little guidance below; I hope it helps! I'm a little rushed at the moment, so I don't have time to go into too much detail. Apologies if it is a little curt:

There is no need to be ashamed. You're doing the right thing my focusing on improving; being critical and taking responsibility for what happened. Keep practicing and keep learning.

-----

Firstly, I wouldn't run multiple Thoughtseize as a Xantid Swarm replacement. Thoughtseize's lifeloss is a real detriment to this deck. We don't need more discard.

So what to use instead?

Honestly, if you don't have any blue decks to play against, then your deck list is wide open. A large portion of the design of TES is devoted to dealing with the blue decks in the room. Without them, you're basically just playing a slower Belcher deck.

That said, if your goals are outside of dominating your local tournaments and you want to keep playing TES, you can modify your deck with cards that were removed due to their poor performance against the (mostly blue) meta.

Begin by looking at some of the older engines that were removed, such as Ill-Gotten Gains and/or Diminishing Returns and go from there.

-----

As for your games, your fate in the match against Dredge was sealed when you decided to keep that hand. We could examine what happened after this, but I believe it would serve little purpose. Against Dredge, you need to focus on winning as soon as possible. The hand you kept was too slow and had a very poor chance of winning.

You were correct to cut the Empty the Warrens when sideboarding here, but you should not have cut the Ponders. Again, focus on killing them as soon as possible. Bringing in 1 Thoughtseize was fine.

-----

As for Pox and other discard heavy decks, again you should focus on killing them as soon as possible. To help accomplish this, you usually want to keep in Empty the Warrens. If they have disruption for this plan (removal, blockers etc), you can usually kill them before it is relevant, or rip it from their hand with Cabal Therapy or otherwise.

Another important piece of advice for these match-ups is to play out your artifact mana as soon as possible. What often happens then is that you will sit with a ton of mana on the battlefield and 0 cards in hand. Once you draw a tutor, you kill them. You should also save your Brainstorms to protect your important cards from their discard.

It can be a little tricky as some of these decks run hateful permanents, in which case you may want to bring in cards to answer those. E.g. Abrupt Decay for Chalice of the Void. You'll have to gauge when this is correct yourself.

-----

If you do this, you should win these match-ups the majority of the time.

Again - you've got the right attitude! Keep it up! :)

[Lemnear]

Hey there,

First off, that might be long and confused: I still haven’t slept, and I’m still under shock of my painful losses. I apologized in advance.

Just came back from a weekly event, ended 2-2. I’m very slowly trying to understand what’s going wrong whenever I play TES, as my win rate is much lower than with any other deck. No, it’s not a difficult meta, it’s completely me as a player. I need help. No judgment, please, but yes, I’m ashamed.

After tonight, I can say that the matches I win, I win turn 1 or turn 2. I don’t ever remember a win pass turn 3 with the deck, usually, my hand just get shredded. It could also be that my main was to practice is to goldfish, so I’m not used to have any opposition. Oh well.

I’m playing Bryant’s list from 05/20, with the exception of 3 Thoughtseize instead of 3 Xantid Swarm in the side. I don’t have any blue deck in my meta, no Reanimator, no Omnitell, Sneak and Show, or Miracles. Nothing.
Before going to sleep, I would like to clear my mind on two things, the first being the start of a game I played.

Why Thoughtseize? If I don't expect any blue deck but mainly permanent hate, why not run more CoVs, yard-hate or sweepers?


Game 2, Match 1. TES (me) vs Blue Manaless Dredge (Alexe)

I won first game rather easily, getting a turn 1 Tendrils after Ad Nauseam. Since she’s Manaless Dredge, I’m on the play the second game too. I boarded out Empty the Warren and 2x Ponder to bring in the 3x Thoughtseize.

Manaless has one hell of a problem to race T1 Goblins. Just saying


My opening is, as far I as I remember, something like this:
Underground Sea, Duress, LED, Ad Nauseam, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Therapy

This is a clear mulligan. LED, Wish and Infernal are totally dead cards and AN needs runna-runna Rituals or a topdeck Brainstorm (finding a Fetch). It would never do anything before turn 4. It's a virtual mulligan to 4 to keep it.


My turn 1 is the following: Underground > Duress.

Her hand shows the following: Mindbreak Trap, Disrupting Shoal, Dread Return, Narcomoeba, Whirlpool Rider, Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian.

My first mistake, I think. I take out Disrupting Shoal instead of Mindbreak Trap, because I’m afraid for my tutor, thinking I’ll be able to get rid of the Mindbreak Trap with a Burning Wish > Thoughtseize. First, I shouldn’t be afraid for my tutor since I have two, second, I boarded all my Thoughtseize anyway. Is my correction correct, is my first play good at all if I take out the Mindbreak Trap?

Not that it matters much, but yeah, take the Trap and drop the LED in that situation


At her turn, she can’t put a card in the grave since she doesn’t have 8 cards in hand. I draw a Polluted Delta. I play the Delta, go for an Underground Sea. I Cabal Therapy right away, naming Whirlpool Rider, for some unknown reason. I mean, I’m, as I’m writing this, watching the recorded game. I just don’t understand why I didn’t get the Mindbreak Trap, especially with the Disrupting Shoal gone. The whole point was to get her not to use her grave, so I don’t think discarding was the wrong choice, but what I discard was horrid. That would cost me game 3 at least.

Actually, here is a list of the plays.

Turn 1 LDX: Underground Sea > Duress
Alexe reveal MBT, Dread Return, Disrupting Shoal, Narco, Whirlpool Rider, Golgari Grave Troll. A bad card
Duress = Disrupting Shoal

Turn 1 Alexe: Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 2 LDX: Polluted Delta to Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy = Whirlpool Rider

Turn 2 Alexe; Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 3 LDX: Cabal Therapy = Mindbreak Trap

Turn 3 Alexe: Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 4 LDX: Draws a fetch, goes for Volcanic. Goes Infernal Tutor, shows LED.

Turn 4 Alexe: End of her turn, she gets to put a Grave Troll in her grave.

Turn 5 LDX: I draw a land and play a fetch, that’s my 4th land. Now I panic since I couldn’t win despite my disruption. I play 2 LEDs, pay for Burning Wish to reach Empty the Warren, but hold priority to crack BOTH LEDS instead of just one. I only needed the mana of one, but I cracked two, yet I don’t think this is my biggest mistake. It doesn’t seem like going for 8 goblins at this stage of the game was worth it. At all. At the very worst, I guess, I could have casted that second Burning Wish to add a Storm counter, pick up, let’s say, Grapeshot, not play it yet but have it in hand. That would have been 2 more Goblins in play and I would have won the game in the following turns, as it shows.

Hmmmm... Why not infernal for more lands to make sure you can cast the AN sooner or later? Why not Wish for Ponder? Why do you fetch an LED you can't use to cast AN anyways? I'm sure AN would have won before she could have killed you.


Turn 5 Alexe: She Dredges her Grave Troll for 6. She passes the turn, drops a Neither Shadow in her grave by the end of her turn.

Turn 6 LDX: Attack with 8 golbins.

Turn 6 Alexe: Dredges for 6

Turn 7 LDX: Attacks for 8.

Turn 7 Alexe: Brings back Nether Shadow, Nether Shadow, Ichorid. Dredges for 5. She attacks for 5. I block nothing as all my goblins are tapped, but I guess I should have left one untapped to block, die, and get rid of the Bridges.
Cabal Therapy on me. I respond Brainstorm. She sees Ponder&Duress. She has 3 Bridges from Below in the grave at that point, so she gets 3 zombies. Then again, she casts an other Cabal Therapy on me, getting rid of my Ponder, an
other 3 zombies. Ichorid leaves play, an other 3 zombies. She has 9 untapped zombie ready for me at my turn.

Turn 8 LDX: Draws, I don’t attack. I have 8 goblins, she has 9 zombies. Nothing to do in this game anymore.

Now what could I have done better? Wait longer to go off? Try to reach Ad Nauseam instead of Burning Wish? Should I have went for Tendrils instead of Goblins? I totally feels like I had this game and was ripped. Moreover, it feels like I know the solution to it, but I just can’t figure it all out. Game 3 was also a loss, but mostly because I named Disrupting Shoal instead of Mindbreak Trap. It was an easy spotted mistake, my bad, that won’t happen again. However, for this game 2… I don’t know. I just don’t know.

You can't keep that hand. You were lucky to draw mana and had all options to win if you don't panic and threw the hand away for mere 8 Goblins, bit work towards Ad Nauseam. Have you thought about wishing for Ponder?. Add these two mayor mistakes to the minor one with MBT and you have your reason for the loss.


Game 2/3 vs Pox, The Gate or any mass discard deck

The other thing I need some thoughts on is, how to beat black controlish decks like Pox (BG) and The Gate. I’ve played the guy twice, once he was with Pox, today, with The Gate. I always win the first game because of an easy combo turn 1 or 2, before he does anything to me.

Then we sideboard. I removed an Empty the Warren for a Tendrils of Agony, because I know he has mass removal just for me. He leads with Turn 1 Cabal Therapy on Tutors (or Inquisition of Kozlilek), Turn 2 Hymn to Tourach, and at this point I’m way too behind. I can never lift back up after so much discard.

Don't remove EtW just because he MAY has answers. If you empty the warrens ans he has a hand full of discard and landdestruction, you win. If he keeps a hand with solutions to goblins, you cast AN, If he has both, get rid of discard first. You may Therapy the discard and clear the sweepers with the flashback after goblins are on the field. Common strategy. Don't board ToA. I hate that one as it limits your access to ToA too much (basically to IT + LED post AN)


Game 3, I keep the same sideboard changes. I can’t win turn 1, nor turn 2. Quick question there, do I use my own discard first, or do I use cantrips already? Obviously, implying I can’t win right away. Them, do I drop all my 0 mana artifacts just to avoid the discard, despite the fear of Phyrexian Revoker, the lack of Storm counter, and the fatal Hymn to Tourach on the rest of my hand?

You drop your mana, discard his discard and play off the top with your cantrips. That sequence.


All the time, the same two situation happens: I either can’t go at all, or can only go for a small number of goblins that either gets removed or that can’t trade with his own Jitte-equipped Vampire Nighthawks, or Mishra’s Factory.

Have you thought about how your boarding decreased your speed in this matchup that Nighthawk + Jitte really became a factor?


I deviate between 'Peter' and 'Lemnear'. Do you have a preference?

nope. We're FB friends, so you can choose or switch forth and back ;)


Very excited for GP Lille in a few weeks! I'm attending a GPT for it tomorrow in Dublin; hopefully it goes well!

dito. Don't leave my Probes at home, Adam :p


That said, The combination of Swamp + Volcanic Island has been superb. But with so many green cards in my current sideboard, I have definitely contemplated another green source (most likely Tropical Island) to introduce a little redundancy instead. Rolling with the stock set-up for the moment though.

Take it easy folks!

well, a 2/2/2 split of Sea/Volcanic/Bayou in the 75 isn't unheared of.

[LDX]

First off, thank you for your help. I just wanted to explain, before anything else, that I'm playing TES in this meta because I still can't fully grasp the concept of speed, when to do what, everything, and that I need huge practice before going in other tournaments. Yes, an other deck would have more chances of winning but wouldn't give me the practice I need.


Why Thoughtseize? If I don't expect any blue deck but mainly permanent hate, why not run more CoVs, yard-hate or sweepers?

I tried to adapt the side for my meta and went 3 Thoughtseize because I knew a Manaless Dredge would be present, and tried to follow advices I got in this thread telling me how discard was good vs them. Since it's Manaless, they need to have 7 cards in hand before doing anything, as they need their own discard phase to start. That was my reasonning. If I had to to it all again, I would probably go 1 Thoughtseize and 2 CoV. Or keep the Xandith just to feel a bit more complete, even tho they're most likely useless. Or could they be good vs Blue Manaless?



Regarding the Dredge match


You were correct to cut the Empty the Warrens when sideboarding here, but you should not have cut the Ponders. Again, focus on killing them as soon as possible. Bringing in 1 Thoughtseize was fine.

I thought Ponder was a cut for fast match, and Chrome Mox for slow one. I wanted to kill them as soon as possible, that was my goal. I just knew Thoughtseize would give me some extra turn vs Manaless. Was it all wrong?



Hi LDX!
As for your games, your fate in the match against Dredge was sealed when you decided to keep that hand. We could examine what happened after this, but I believe it would serve little purpose. Against Dredge, you need to focus on winning as soon as possible. The hand you kept was too slow and had a very poor chance of winning.

This is a clear mulligan. LED, Wish and Infernal are totally dead cards and AN needs runna-runna Rituals or a topdeck Brainstorm (finding a Fetch). It would never do anything before turn 4. It's a virtual mulligan to 4 to keep it.

Hmmmm... Why not infernal for more lands to make sure you can cast the AN sooner or later? Why not Wish for Ponder? Why do you fetch an LED you can't use to cast AN anyways? I'm sure AN would have won before she could have killed you.

Fine, I should have mulligan. There's still a fog I would like to clear out tho. You both agree that I needed to win ASAP. From what I understood, the quickest way to win a game with TES is to go for Empty the Warren. Is that just wrong? It seems like, implicitly, you're both saying Ad Nauseam would have been a better choice. I might have been wrong, but I didn't want to play control keeping this hand (well, maybe the first turn, considering it was vs Manaless), I wanted to win ASAP like you guys mention it. I thought keeping a hand with LED and two tutors would secure me at least an Empty the Warren, and in my case, Ad Nauseam seemed to be the dead card. You guys are clearly telling me I have the wrong conception on ''winning fast'': it's a tough question, but how the hell should I view it? What is ''winning fast'' !?



Not that it matters much, but yeah, take the Trap and drop the LED in that situation
Why would you drop the LED? Isn't it a missed Storm counter?



You can't keep that hand. You were lucky to draw mana and had all options to win if you don't panic and threw the hand away for mere 8 Goblins, bit work towards Ad Nauseam. Have you thought about wishing for Ponder?. Add these two mayor mistakes to the minor one with MBT and you have your reason for the loss.

I thought about it, but Ad Nauseam seemed like the dead card in my hand, so no, I did nothing I could to cast it as I thought it was the wrong play to do. Just to confirm, again, you're telling me Ad Nauseam IS the fastest way to win, and not Goblins?



Regarding Black matches


As for Pox and other discard heavy decks, again you should focus on killing them as soon as possible. To help accomplish this, you usually want to keep in Empty the Warrens. If they have disruption for this plan (removal, blockers etc), you can usually kill them before it is relevant, or rip it from their hand with Cabal Therapy or otherwise.

Don't remove EtW just because he MAY has answers. If you empty the warrens ans he has a hand full of discard and landdestruction, you win. If he keeps a hand with solutions to goblins, you cast AN, If he has both, get rid of discard first. You may Therapy the discard and clear the sweepers with the flashback after goblins are on the field. Common strategy. Don't board ToA. I hate that one as it limits your access to ToA too much (basically to IT + LED post AN)

Fine. But then, he top decks a sweeper. All the time. Is it just pure badluck and should I accept that this is unwinnable, or is there some way to get back up that I don't know of? I mean, I usually have no hands by that point, 10 goblins in play that are now gone. What should I focus to win the game after? Cantrips for Ad Nauseam? Tendrils? Grapeshot? What becomes my backup plan?



Another important piece of advice for these match-ups is to play out your artifact mana as soon as possible. What often happens then is that you will sit with a ton of mana on the battlefield and 0 cards in hand. Once you draw a tutor, you kill them. You should also save your Brainstorms to protect your important cards from their discard.

It seems I tend become dependant on my top deck, sure, that I can adjust with can trips, but still... top decking mode with no Storm counters? Since you all agree, I'll admit I have the wrong perception, but I don't see clearly how this help, especially if he's backing up Phyrexian Revoker to name my artifacts in play. And then, what do I Tutor for, exactly? Ad Nauseam, since I have no Storm counters?

Thanks again!

[Lemnear]

I tried to adapt the side for my meta and went 3 Thoughtseize because I knew a Manaless Dredge would be present, and tried to follow advices I got in this thread telling me how discard was good vs them. Since it's Manaless, they need to have 7 cards in hand before doing anything, as they need their own discard phase to start. That was my reasonning. If I had to to it all again, I would probably go 1 Thoughtseize and 2 CoV. Or keep the Xandith just to feel a bit more complete, even tho they're most likely useless. Or could they be good vs Blue Manaless?

The devil is hidden in details. The best Thoughtseize does for you is trading a card and two life for an extra turn, which isn't doing enough considering all you likely gain from this action is another drawstep and the option to drop a land. Given that you already run plenty of discard, I don't see any additional gain here with a look at sb space used. If you expect manaless being present, why do you not run Planar Voids? It's basically an I-win-button for a single black mana. The general question here is if you wouldn't gain more from pondering into gas rather than basically "cycling" a plethora of discard spells.


Regarding the Dredge match

I thought Ponder was a cut for fast match, and Chrome Mox for slow one. I wanted to kill them as soon as possible, that was my goal. I just knew Thoughtseize would give me some extra turn vs Manaless. Was it all wrong?

the idea is right about Moxen and Ponder. The flaw is that thoughtseize basically does nothing but cycling for a black mana and two life which is painful for ad nauseam.


Fine, I should have mulligan. There's still a fog I would like to clear out tho. You both agree that I needed to win ASAP. From what I understood, the quickest way to win a game with TES is to go for Empty the Warren. Is that just wrong? It seems like, implicitly, you're both saying Ad Nauseam would have been a better choice. I might have been wrong, but I didn't want to play control keeping this hand (well, maybe the first turn, considering it was vs Manaless), I wanted to win ASAP like you guys mention it. I thought keeping a hand with LED and two tutors would secure me at least an Empty the Warren, and in my case, Ad Nauseam seemed to be the dead card. You guys are clearly telling me I have the wrong conception on ''winning fast'': it's a tough question, but how the hell should I view it? What is ''winning fast'' !?

Please differ between "combo asap" and "win asap". Ad Nauseam wins on the spot while EtW needs you to pass the turn TWICE after being cast in most cases. In matchups which can race the Goblins, I rather ship a single turn to cast AN instead of combo out immediately and have to pray for not dying during the next two turns goblins need to win. There are also situations in which you can't afford to wait even that single turn for being able to cast AN because Thalia/Canonist/Counterbalance/etc. would lock you out otherwise and you have to grab EtW. You have to figure out which of the two scenarios applies in each situation.

In this particular case, Manaless is totally unable to kill you on the spot but needs 2-3 turns for that, but is capable to build enough Zombies to block your Goblins, especially as they were so few. The logic conclusion here is to not bank on a 3-turn-clock of 8 Goblins but works towards killing with AN in the same timewindow without having to care for your opponents potential blockers.

The reason Adam and I pick on that starting grip is that you can't go for goblins before turn 3 in any case, nor does the hand layout guarantee a decent number of goblins at all. These two factors eradicate EtW as an option with this hand and as a logic consequence render LED, IT and Wish three useless cards (thus my talk about virtual mulligan to 4)


Why would you drop the LED? Isn't it a missed Storm counter?

You aim for Ad Nauseam anyways. no need to bother about the storm count here


I thought about it, but Ad Nauseam seemed like the dead card in my hand, so no, I did nothing I could to cast it as I thought it was the wrong play to do. Just to confirm, again, you're telling me Ad Nauseam IS the fastest way to win, and not Goblins?

...and it was a dead card in addition to LED, IT and Wish, ergo we labeled the hand a mulligan. AN was suddenly the best option you have as you drew the third land. If you copied it with IT and drew ANY acceleration the following turn you would have been able to cast AN with a LED still ununsed in play.

again: AN is the fastest way to win and EtW is the fastest way to combo. EtW was not an option because a) you had no chance to cast it early enough and b) you could not generate enough stormcount to race zombies


Regarding Black matches

Fine. But then, he top decks a sweeper. All the time. Is it just pure badluck and should I accept that this is unwinnable, or is there some way to get back up that I don't know of? I mean, I usually have no hands by that point, 10 goblins in play that are now gone. What should I focus to win the game after? Cantrips for Ad Nauseam? Tendrils? Grapeshot? What becomes my backup plan?

There is barely any viable comeback plan except PIF. You cast a quick AN before discard mauls you; you drop and develop your mana on the field and use library manipulation to topdeck into the win; you go for quick goblins and yolo/Therapy against potential sweepers ... pick one of the three.


It seems I tend become dependant on my top deck, sure, that I can adjust with can trips, but still... top decking mode with no Storm counters? Since you all agree, I'll admit I have the wrong perception, but I don't see clearly how this help, especially if he's backing up Phyrexian Revoker to name my artifacts in play. And then, what do I Tutor for, exactly? Ad Nauseam, since I have no Storm counters?

Thanks again!

If you gather your artifact and land mana in play and your rituals in your yard/hand, you just need to draw into a Wish/IT/AN to win which you can setup with your 12 cantrips.

[LDX]

I can't thank you enough. I'll come back next week with better results, and a better report.

That being said, I suspect three other possible matchups I should face next, and have (short) questions related to them.

1) Death and Taxes. I want to EtW asap, because I need to combo before Thalia. Right? It worked in my last match, G1, and G3. G2, on the draw, was lost mostly due to Chalice of the Void, as he plays 3 copies of it. Do we bring Abrupt Decay on the draw? If the match is still lost and we go on the play next game, do we remove them? That would be the logic I see. My sideboard was -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, for +2 CoV, +1 Pyroclasm. Had Void Snare & Massacre in the side, left Grapeshot in the side too.

2) Oops! All spells. Win ASAP, or try to disrupt the hand first? No Goblins since we're looking for a WIN and not a COMBO, correct? (with or without exception like Cabal Therapies to be flashbacked?)

3) Affinity. I guess we bring the Decays, CoV and Pyroclasm in my case. Grapheshot too? And if so, do we remove the Duress or the Ponder first?

Thanks again!

[Lemnear]

I can't thank you enough. I'll come back next week with better results, and a better report.

That being said, I suspect three other possible matchups I should face next, and have (short) questions related to them.

1) Death and Taxes. I want to EtW asap, because I need to combo before Thalia. Right? It worked in my last match, G1, and G3. G2, on the draw, was lost mostly due to Chalice of the Void, as he plays 3 copies of it. Do we bring Abrupt Decay on the draw? If the match is still lost and we go on the play next game, do we remove them? That would be the logic I see. My sideboard was -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, for +2 CoV, +1 Pyroclasm. Had Void Snare & Massacre in the side, left Grapeshot in the side too.

2) Oops! All spells. Win ASAP, or try to disrupt the hand first? No Goblins since we're looking for a WIN and not a COMBO, correct? (with or without exception like Cabal Therapies to be flashbacked?)

3) Affinity. I guess we bring the Decays, CoV and Pyroclasm in my case. Grapheshot too? And if so, do we remove the Duress or the Ponder first?

Thanks again!

1) You're bot boarding decays against D&T. CoV, Clasm and VS are fine to board
2) The deck usually loses to discard. You can stall them endlessly and win. Swapping EtW for a SB discard is fine
3) Are they running Chalice? Haven't played against this deck for years. I'd board nothing unless they ran Chalice

[kkkant]

1) You're bot boarding decays against D&T. CoV, Clasm and VS are fine to board
2) The deck usually loses to discard. You can stall them endlessly and win. Swapping EtW for a SB discard is fine
3) Are they running Chalice? Haven't played against this deck for years. I'd board nothing unless they ran Chalice

There isnt "a list" for affinity since it isnt really a thing lately. But yeah, they are running Chalice (usually MD) and Canonist SB. I think just decay may be the way to go since we can have access to pyroclasm with wish if we absolutely need to, and overboarding isnt needed aggainst a matchup that should be good, right?

[LDX]

New situation, same decks, in a practice environment.

TES vs Manaless Dredge. Game 2, won the first. I'm on the play. Sideboard was -1 EtW, +ToA. Is it really the cause of all my troubles?

Hand is the following:

Volcanic Island
Polluted Delta
Gitaxian Probe
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony
Chrome Mox

1) Do you keep that? I did, hoping to draw an Infernal Tutor and go on a Ad Nauseam to Past In Flames route.

Turn 1: Considering I can't go this turn, but not fearing a Cabal Therapy yet (no creatures in play, she plays Manaless), I put down the Volanic Island and pay the blue for Gitaxian probe. So I see her hand:

Narcomoeba
Narcomoeba
Mindbreak Trap
Force of Will
Stinkweed Imp
Dread Return
Nether Shadow

Rather annoyed, I draw my card: Lion's Eye Diamond. Pass the turn. She draws and puts Stinkweed Imp in her graveyard.

Turn 2: Draw Burning Wish.

2) What do you do at that point!? I have no discard in the sideboard for her counterspells. On the spot, my first thought is to bait a Force of Will, or grab Past in Flames right away if she doesn't respond. I play my Polluted Delta, fetch for an Underground Sea, and tap Volcanic Island + Underground Sea to cast Burning Wish. It gets countered, she sacrifices a Narco to her Force of Will, and my Past in Flames is still in my sideboard. I feel like I need that Infernal Tutor, but that with it, my win is assured. I pass the turn.

She gets her first cards in her grave on her turn, Dredging for 5, but no creatures are in play yet. She gets a Bridge tho, and a Dredger, and a FoW. So I know only one is in her library.

Turn 3: I draw Brainstorm. I pass. On her turn, she gets more cards.

Turn 4: I draw Ponder. I tap my Volcanic to play Ponder, and I see: Lotus Petal, Rite of Flames, Polluted Delta.

3) Do you shuffle this, or take the Delta and Brainstorm? I took the Delta, but now I feel like it was the bad choice, I could have drawn an Infernal, and play Dark Ritual, Imprint the Brainstorm on the Chrome Mox, and then go for Ad Nauseam. But hey, I drew Delta, so I pass.

On her turn, she attacks with a Nether Shadow and an Ichorid, so 4 total. I drop at 15 due to my fetch. She managed to get a Cabal Therapy in her graveyard and sacrifice her Shadow to it: in response, I Brainstorm. I draw Lotus Petal, Rite of Flames, Cabal Therapy.

4) Shuffling with Delta was mandatory before casting the Brainstorm, right? As I could still win next turn, I would have seen 3 new cards, instead of one. At that time, after that mistake, I realized she was starting with her combos/attacks, but that I still had to get rid of the FoW and the Mindbreak Trap.

5) Would you scoop? I felt like there was no way out of this. I kept playing the game (and noted what I did), but there was so many mistakes they're not even worth mentioning. I was crushed

6) While keeping my LEDs in hand, was I losing myself a turn, in case of an Infernal draw, due to Mindbreak Trap? My plan was to Infernal to Ad Nauseam ASAP. I had to bypass/bait/discard 2 FoW + 1 MBT to that. 2 LED + Infernal + Ad Nauseam is 4 spells, she would have been able to counter. Infernal + Ad Nauseam using already in place LEDs isn't as bad.

That's about it for today. I managed to win against the discard black decks today, but only in pratice. Our next playnight is Thursday, I'll keep you updated.

[sawatarix]

There were too many mistakes in this games, don't know where to start here :D

[owerbart]

I know in some ANT variations you do it, but in TES, do you ever sideboard out a Lion's Eye Diamond? Also, why do you guys consider Mana Confluence to be superior to City of Brass? Because Port?

[ThomasDowd]

I know in some ANT variations you do it, but in TES, do you ever sideboard out a Lion's Eye Diamond? Also, why do you guys consider Mana Confluence to be superior to City of Brass? Because Port?

I board petals out in ANT before I touch LED. and in TES Chrome mox is the first to go. boarding out LED seems..... loose. What is the situation in ANT where you are boarding out LED?

[Lemnear]

Seeing "-EtW +ToA" again and the idea to board out LED, gives me the idea to simply not longer responding to this thread ... at least not before having my third coffee and punched a kitten because of the caused frustration

[Asthereal]

I know in some ANT variations you do ... sideboard out a Lion's Eye Diamond...
No you don't.


... in TES, do you ever sideboard out a Lion's Eye Diamond?
No you don't.


... why do you guys consider Mana Confluence to be superior to City of Brass? Because Port?
Yes. Only reason.

Theoretically, City is better if the opponent has no Port, because the damage is a trigger instead of a cost, so stuff can happen before the trigger resolves. Example: (not entirely sure this works, but...) I read about a guy going "I am at one life. I announce Tendrils. Show Tendrils from hand. Tap mana to pay for Tendrils. Tap City for this. City triggers. Trigger on the stack on top of Tendrils. Then Tendrils storm trigger on the stack on top of that." If storm is high enough this kills the opponent before the City trigger kills you.

There are other applications thinkable, but it's very limited. Since this is way more of a fringe case than encountering a Port (Death&Taxes!), Mana Confluence is strictly better than Port. City looks better though, which is also a factor. :smile:

[Lemnear]

There were too many mistakes in this games, don't know where to start here :D

Yep. Sat in the U9 to work when I opened the thread to just saw the boarding and skipped the post. Then I saw the talk about boarding out LED and closed the thread immediately. Took me coffee #1 to make a first response.

Given all the questions in the thread and FB group: Shall we join forces at Friday of GP Lille and hold Storm Seminars for 30€/h? ;)

After the "Ambitions 2015" tournament was canceled by Felix, I have no further plans than playing Trials for fun otherwise, getting cards signed, deliver/pickup orders, etc. Think about it :D


I know in some ANT variations you do it, but in TES, do you ever sideboard out a Lion's Eye Diamond? Also, why do you guys consider Mana Confluence to be superior to City of Brass? Because Port?

Because of Port, Tangle Wire and other minor relevant stuff. The question is, why you bother with either card. TES isn't running rainbow lands at all atm and Gemstone Mine remains the superior rainbow land after all. Can't foresee us running more than 4 rainbow lands ever again.

You never board out Probes, Wishes, Petals or LEDs in TES. No exceptions. This is an Ad Nauseam deck after all. ANT could allow itself to do this, as Ritual effects are much more valuable than artifact mana, if your gameplan is to cast PIF rather than Ad Nauseam, especially if you play against Chalice of the Void @ 0 and similar stuff, which ANT can handle much better than TES. Boarding out LED in ANT is also still pretty uncommon


New situation, same decks, in a practice environment.

TES vs Manaless Dredge. Game 2, won the first. I'm on the play. Sideboard was -1 EtW, +ToA

I'm almost certain I talked about this boarding before and made it clear, why it's really bad. Honestly, I stopped reading at this point while I was in the subway, because I was frustrated to see this again and not wanted to follow up with a jerk post. I had coffee and a sandwich in the meanwhile so I'm ready to give an adequate response, by telling you to either board in PIF for EtW in this matchup or don't board at all. EtW can race Manaless and I told you this before. It's kinda funny because of the hand you drew:


Hand is the following:

Volcanic Island
Polluted Delta
Gitaxian Probe
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony
Chrome Mox

1) Do you keep that? I did, hoping to draw an Infernal Tutor and go on a Ad Nauseam to Past In Flames route.

Thats a solid keep, if the ToA was still an EtW and a nice example of why you don't want to board like this, as EtW would win this game, but ToA does nothing. Even worse: The only way to access ToA at this point post-AN is via Wish->PIF->ToA which is a full 4 mana more expensive than wishing for ToA directly. How unreasonable is that?


Turn 1: Considering I can't go this turn, but not fearing a Cabal Therapy yet (no creatures in play, she plays Manaless), I put down the Volanic Island and pay the blue for Gitaxian probe. So I see her hand:

Narcomoeba
Narcomoeba
Mindbreak Trap
Force of Will
Stinkweed Imp
Dread Return
Nether Shadow

Rather annoyed, I draw my card: Lion's Eye Diamond. Pass the turn. She draws and puts Stinkweed Imp in her graveyard.

There is a whole array of mistakes involved by going "Volcanic->blue mana->Probe" here:

1) Why pay mana here? Manaless isn't attacking you before turn 3 anyways so the lifeloss is irrelevant
2) Why not cast Probe first to see whats up and what you are drawing before you make a color-commiting landdrop?
3) How bad is paying mana for Probe if you draw a Ponder or Therapy with it?
4) Why play Probe at all? It would deliver free stormcount for the ToA in your hand for the killturn.
5) Why look into your opponents hand if you have no combo to follow up with or a discard spell at all?

Don't cast a Probe just because you can. It's a wide-spread and bad habit.


Turn 2: Draw Burning Wish.

2) What do you do at that point!? I have no discard in the sideboard for her counterspells. On the spot, my first thought is to bait a Force of Will, or grab Past in Flames right away if she doesn't respond. I play my Polluted Delta, fetch for an Underground Sea, and tap Volcanic Island + Underground Sea to cast Burning Wish. It gets countered, she sacrifices a Narco to her Force of Will, and my Past in Flames is still in my sideboard. I feel like I need that Infernal Tutor, but that with it, my win is assured. I pass the turn.

I personally would have continued playing "land, go" and try to use the wish as counterbait later to fuel stormcount or grab EtW/PIF after drawing into discard. Given your opponent misplayed here by countering the Wish w/o floated mana here with a FoW, you have lost nothing. I would have dropped the Diamond at this point to get around MBT later.


She gets her first cards in her grave on her turn, Dredging for 5, but no creatures are in play yet. She gets a Bridge tho, and a Dredger, and a FoW. So I know only one is in her library.

Turn 3: I draw Brainstorm. I pass. On her turn, she gets more cards.

Turn 4: I draw Ponder. I tap my Volcanic to play Ponder, and I see: Lotus Petal, Rite of Flames, Polluted Delta.

3) Do you shuffle this, or take the Delta and Brainstorm? I took the Delta, but now I feel like it was the bad choice, I could have drawn an Infernal, and play Dark Ritual, Imprint the Brainstorm on the Chrome Mox, and then go for Ad Nauseam. But hey, I drew Delta, so I pass.

I guess it's valid to keep this Ponder and draw the Delta, Brainstorm into Petal + RoF + [unknown card] and put back Mox + ToA at this point (all given that you played the way you did up to this point making a natural ToA from hand very unlikely) and shuffle with the Delta to get another land depending on what the unknown drawn card was. If its a discard spell or cantrip, you can immediately continue for example. Drop the Petal.


On her turn, she attacks with a Nether Shadow and an Ichorid, so 4 total. I drop at 15 due to my fetch. She managed to get a Cabal Therapy in her graveyard and sacrifice her Shadow to it: in response, I Brainstorm. I draw Lotus Petal, Rite of Flames, Cabal Therapy.

4) Shuffling with Delta was mandatory before casting the Brainstorm, right? As I could still win next turn, I would have seen 3 new cards, instead of one. At that time, after that mistake, I realized she was starting with her combos/attacks, but that I still had to get rid of the FoW and the Mindbreak Trap.

What you did here is plain wasting mana and time. We know now that the third card would have been a Therapy, you could have used to get rid of the MBT already and before your next untap step (Thought she used the FoW on Wish? Why talking about FoW here?). Nothing is lost here, depending on what you put back with Brainstorm and if you fetched to get that stuff gone. There are no notes about what you did here. May enlight me?


5) Would you scoop? I felt like there was no way out of this. I kept playing the game (and noted what I did), but there was so many mistakes they're not even worth mentioning. I was crushed

Why? Despite all the mistakes made up to the Brainstorm (which I know nothing about; see above), the game was still wide open and you able to win with AN or PIF. *shrug*


6) While keeping my LEDs in hand, was I losing myself a turn, in case of an Infernal draw, due to Mindbreak Trap? My plan was to Infernal to Ad Nauseam ASAP. I had to bypass/bait/discard 2 FoW + 1 MBT to that. 2 LED + Infernal + Ad Nauseam is 4 spells, she would have been able to counter. Infernal + Ad Nauseam using already in place LEDs isn't as bad.

You also risked it being discarded. We have talked about that before, like we did about boarding ToA, dood. I don't know where the second FoW is coming from. You stated she had MBT + FoW in her opener and you baited her into countering the Wish plus had a therapy available. Did you knew she runs MBT and FoW in board? If yes, why did you not bring in Xantids?


Theoretically, City is better if the opponent has no Port, because the damage is a trigger instead of a cost, so stuff can happen before the trigger resolves. Example: (not entirely sure this works, but...) I read about a guy going "I am at one life. I announce Tendrils. Show Tendrils from hand. Tap mana to pay for Tendrils. Tap City for this. City triggers. Trigger on the stack on top of Tendrils. Then Tendrils storm trigger on the stack on top of that." If storm is high enough this kills the opponent before the City trigger kills you.

You can totally do that. Part of the fact that it's allowed to pay for costs after a spell is announced. One of the few advantages players have who know the rules of the game.

[sawatarix]

wow, you finally answered all the questions.

I'm willing to do a Storm seminar at Lille if someone pays me ;)

About TES, about ANT, about anything ;)

[Lemnear]

Heart of the Storm - Storm Shards #1 @ theepicstorm.com (http://www.theepicstorm.com/articles/) #ArticleOuttaNowhere

[Asthereal]

Theoretically, City is better if the opponent has no Port, because the damage is a trigger instead of a cost, so stuff can happen before the trigger resolves. Example: (not entirely sure this works, but...) I read about a guy going "I am at one life. I announce Tendrils. Show Tendrils from hand. Tap mana to pay for Tendrils. Tap City for this. City triggers. Trigger on the stack on top of Tendrils. Then Tendrils storm trigger on the stack on top of that." If storm is high enough this kills the opponent before the City trigger kills you.


You can totally do that. Part of the fact that it's allowed to pay for costs after a spell is announced. One of the few advantages players have who know the rules of the game.

It works! :eek: Awesome. I'll keep that in mind. Not that it really matters, because even though I posted an argument in favour of Confluence/City earlier, I am still on the 2x Gemstone Mine mana base myself, and I still like it.

[LDX]

I'm almost certain I talked about this boarding before and made it clear, why it's really bad. Honestly, I stopped reading at this point while I was in the subway, because I was frustrated to see this again and not wanted to follow up with a jerk post. I had coffee and a sandwich in the meanwhile so I'm ready to give an adequate response, by telling you to either board in PIF for EtW in this matchup or don't board at all. EtW can race Manaless and I told you this before.

Let's settled a couple of things first. I went and read exactly what you said regarding the matchup and boarding in/out ToA.


Manaless has one hell of a problem to race T1 Goblins. Just saying

Don't remove EtW just because he MAY has answers. If you empty the warrens ans he has a hand full of discard and landdestruction, you win. If he keeps a hand with solutions to goblins, you cast AN, If he has both, get rid of discard first. You may Therapy the discard and clear the sweepers with the flashback after goblins are on the field. Common strategy. Don't board ToA. I hate that one as it limits your access to ToA too much (basically to IT + LED post AN)


Ok. There were two honest mistakes. At first, I missread ''Manaless HAS one hell of a problem'' for ''Manaless IS one hell of a problem''. Second, I took things to literally and thought you were specific to the matchup we were discussing. No, I didn't think farther than that, and tried to applied exactly what you were saying. You can be assured that it was not in my intention to frustrate you, or to come here with a ''look, I ask for advice but I don't listen!'' attitude.

That being said, feel free to stop responding if you judge me on a missread. Wouldn't a worthy student at least be able to read the answers you wrote with so much patience properly? I would probably think so, too, but to the point of frustration? Emphasized like you do? I knew I was bad at Magic, but not that much. I don't know your life, but I'm glad to see you had enough wisdom to take a break before answering. I appreciate, I'll take everything you're ready to give, but I would suggest you stop if I really frustrate you. Just be clear with me so I don't harass anyone anymore.



Thats a solid keep, if the ToA was still an EtW and a nice example of why you don't want to board like this, as EtW would win this game, but ToA does nothing. Even worse: The only way to access ToA at this point post-AN is via Wish->PIF->ToA which is a full 4 mana more expensive than wishing for ToA directly. How unreasonable is that?

Following the exposed logic, fair enough.




There is a whole array of mistakes involved by going "Volcanic->blue mana->Probe" here:

1) Why pay mana here? Manaless isn't attacking you before turn 3 anyways so the lifeloss is irrelevant
2) Why not cast Probe first to see whats up and what you are drawing before you make a color-commiting landdrop?
3) How bad is paying mana for Probe if you draw a Ponder or Therapy with it?
4) Why play Probe at all? It would deliver free stormcount for the ToA in your hand for the killturn.
5) Why look into your opponents hand if you have no combo to follow up with or a discard spell at all?

Don't cast a Probe just because you can. It's a wide-spread and bad habit.

1) As irrelevant as it is, if it is totally free of commitment, I would rather avoid to lose life if it's a free choice. You pointed out the commitments it had, thank you for your help.
2) With the hand I had, I didn't think I would be able to go off next turn despite anything I drew, which is why I didn't bother with the land color. Was I wrong? Yes.
3) Terribly bad.
4) I wanted to know what to expect for my ''killturn'', how many counterspells she had, to prepare for it, to know how many disruption I needed and what to bait.
5) To know what to search for with the cantrips in the following plays? I would like to understand how bad such a thought is, please.

I didn't want to cast Probe because I could, I casted it because I felt the need to know how to scuplt a good hand in relation to the number of counterspells she had in hand. You're telling me it's not worth it, fine, but how exactly should the sequence go? If Probe>Adapt>Combo isn't the way to go, what is it? Like, for instance. I have a hand to go this turn. I Probe to start off and see she has 2 counterspells. I mean, I can't go this turn anymore, so wouldn't it be better to know in advance to build around it?




I personally would have continued playing "land, go" and try to use the wish as counterbait later to fuel stormcount or grab EtW/PIF after drawing into discard. Given your opponent misplayed here by countering the Wish w/o floated mana here with a FoW, you have lost nothing. I would have dropped the Diamond at this point to get around MBT later.

I suppose the important part is ''after drawing into discard''. That seems to take into consideration the Probe I did earlier, which you said you wouldn't have done anyway. Should I understand you're just giving me the best outcome for situations I shouldn't have been in at first? Also, regarding the LED, the only thing it does dropping it now is to ''free'' a 3-spells-played slot for the MBT, correct? It's not that you would use the mana for anything? Because if so, I don't see how.



I guess it's valid to keep this Ponder and draw the Delta, Brainstorm into Petal + RoF + [unknown card] and put back Mox + ToA at this point (all given that you played the way you did up to this point making a natural ToA from hand very unlikely) and shuffle with the Delta to get another land depending on what the unknown drawn card was. If its a discard spell or cantrip, you can immediately continue for example. Drop the Petal.

What you did here is plain wasting mana and time. We know now that the third card would have been a Therapy, you could have used to get rid of the MBT already and before your next untap step (Thought she used the FoW on Wish? Why talking about FoW here?). Nothing is lost here, depending on what you put back with Brainstorm and if you fetched to get that stuff gone. There are no notes about what you did here. May enlight me?

You also risked it being discarded. We have talked about that before, like we did about boarding ToA, dood. I don't know where the second FoW is coming from. You stated she had MBT + FoW in her opener and you baited her into countering the Wish plus had a therapy available. Did you knew she runs MBT and FoW in board? If yes, why did you not bring in Xantids?

Seems I was confused with my notes. At many places, I have a second FoW noted in her hand. In my mind too, but I can't figure where she got it from, or how I remember the existence of this one. I'm perplex. It's like we both made an illegal play on turn one, when I asked her to go back at the start so I could take note of everything. Reading her opening hand, I wonder if the Nether Shadow wasn't in a fact a FoW, and that she drew the Shadow at the start of her turn and we didn't do it properly after the recover. That would be, without a doubt, the second FoW. Yeah, way to ask for help when I can't give proper board states...



You also risked it being discarded. We have talked about that before, like we did about boarding ToA, dood. I don't know where the second FoW is coming from. You stated she had MBT + FoW in her opener and you baited her into countering the Wish plus had a therapy available. Did you knew she runs MBT and FoW in board? If yes, why did you not bring in Xantids?

I did not bring the Xantids because I tried to do, literally, as you said earlier. The exact same thing. Evidences don't go in this direction, but I'm actually trying to learn and apply what I can get of your knowledge, Lemnear. Even if, sometimes, taking things too literally is indeed a bad move. What would you side out for the Xantids? Empty the Warrens? (Yes, that was a joke.)



There were too many mistakes in this games, don't know where to start here :D
Well, thank you for spreading your light on us, champion! I surely learned more from that than anything else written in this thread! :laugh:




Again, if my posts are becoming problematic either for a proper discussion on the thread or as a source of frustration, please, feel free to tell me to go away. I hope you still have a nice day!

Thanks a lot.

[ThiefSlayer]

Hey LDX, I was gonna type a big post, but there's actually just some few things to be said. You are new to the deck, but you are trying your best, and that's the path to success. You don't have to feel bad for showing your mistakes and asking for help, as it's a MTG forum to discuss several aspects of the deck.

Just don't expect everyone to like posts from a newcomer in here. Not that it's not good, actually replies like Lemnear's to your post help a lot new people to get the thought process of the deck. I'm just saying that people here are used to more deep analysis of the deck, but posts like yours should be welcome too.

PS.: I'm also a newcomer to the deck and posted sometimes here before. Then I realized I was still too new to the deck to be saying somethings (learned it the hard way), but a detailed report like yours, even from a begginer can bring a lot of things to discussion, even though they may seem trivial for some people, for other people it doesn't. What I mean is, don't take things personally and you may get a lot of knowledge from here.

[LDX]

Hey LDX, I was gonna type a big post, but there's actually just some few things to be said. You are new to the deck, but you are trying your best, and that's the path to success. You don't have to feel bad for showing your mistakes and asking for help, as it's a MTG forum to discuss several aspects of the deck.

Just don't expect everyone to like posts from a newcomer in here. Not that it's not good, actually replies like Lemnear's to your post help a lot new people to get the thought process of the deck. I'm just saying that people here are used to more deep analysis of the deck, but posts like yours should be welcome too.

PS.: I'm also a newcomer to the deck and posted sometimes here before. Then I realized I was still too new to the deck to be saying somethings (learned it the hard way), but a detailed report like yours, even from a begginer can bring a lot of things to discussion, even though they may seem trivial for some people, for other people it doesn't. What I mean is, don't take things personally and you may get a lot of knowledge from here.

I'll make it short too :wink:

While I'm trying my best and while that might be the path to success, I don't want ''my success'' to cause issues to anyone. While posts like mine should be welcomed (and even then, it's an opinion more than a fact), I understand the issue with them. It's why I am very humble in front of all pilots taking time and patience to help noobs out. I've been on the other side too on other subjects, I know how troublesome or annoying a noob can be.

It's precisely because I'm getting a lot of knowledge from here that I don't want to make more troubles than I already cause. I appreciate your concern tho. :smile:

[Lemnear]

Ok. There were two honest mistakes. At first, I missread ''Manaless HAS one hell of a problem'' for ''Manaless IS one hell of a problem''. Second, I took things to literally and thought you were specific to the matchup we were discussing. No, I didn't think farther than that, and tried to applied exactly what you were saying. You can be assured that it was not in my intention to frustrate you, or to come here with a ''look, I ask for advice but I don't listen!'' attitude.

Not a big deal in case of this simple misread. I'm kinda thin-skinned for the cycle you correctly described as "ask for advice, ignore it and ask again" which is a pattern in this forum and with my clients *laugh*. I'm a tough discussion partner, but please take that not too serious ;)

Mind, that I can only point you at the approximate direction for certain match layouts (like EtW is good/ok/horrible in [matchup]), because opposing deckbuilding and boarding can vary a lot, so don't take advice in a black/white way. You get the idea.


1) As irrelevant as it is, if it is totally free of commitment, I would rather avoid to lose life if it's a free choice. You pointed out the commitments it had, thank you for your help.
2) With the hand I had, I didn't think I would be able to go off next turn despite anything I drew, which is why I didn't bother with the land color. Was I wrong? Yes.
3) Terribly bad.
4) I wanted to know what to expect for my ''killturn'', how many counterspells she had, to prepare for it, to know how many disruption I needed and what to bait.
5) To know what to search for with the cantrips in the following plays? I would like to understand how bad such a thought is, please.

The point is that in slow matchups which do not pressure the life fast, I value the mana and free stormcount more than the two lifepoints. There is also the advantage of seeing more cards the longer you wait with Probe. Lets imagine you opponent draws the MBT at some point before you combo, instead of having it in her hand the moment you cast Probe turns before your critical turn just because it is "free of commitment". You want to know if you can combo freely once you are ready to go, not 2-3 turns earlier, if you ask me. There is no immediate disadvantage to play "land, go" for a single turn and cast the Probe later other than the 2 lifepoints that don't matter much in this matchup, but give you more insight about your opponents countermeasures and potential speed which should also affect your cantripping decisions. I don't think it's adequate to bring up the "cantrips in the following turns" here as you only had the Probe turn 1.


I didn't want to cast Probe because I could, I casted it because I felt the need to know how to scuplt a good hand in relation to the number of counterspells she had in hand. You're telling me it's not worth it, fine, but how exactly should the sequence go? If Probe>Adapt>Combo isn't the way to go, what is it? Like, for instance. I have a hand to go this turn. I Probe to start off and see she has 2 counterspells. I mean, I can't go this turn anymore, so wouldn't it be better to know in advance to build around it?

Your options to "sculpt" were about zero turn 1 if you pay mana for the Probe. The best value you can gain here in relation to possibilites (chance of drawing into a Ponder/Therapy/IT) is to play "land, go" for your first turn with that hand. Again, your options to "build around hate" are zero with that hand and you need to find a way to combo no matter if she has counterspells or not. Playing around hate is your secondary issue.


I suppose the important part is ''after drawing into discard''. That seems to take into consideration the Probe I did earlier, which you said you wouldn't have done anyway. Should I understand you're just giving me the best outcome for situations I shouldn't have been in at first? Also, regarding the LED, the only thing it does dropping it now is to ''free'' a 3-spells-played slot for the MBT, correct? It's not that you would use the mana for anything? Because if so, I don't see how.

The "drawing into discard" was in context of you having already cast the Probe and seeing the hand you saw. I think it's adequate to follow the actual game step by step, rather than hypothetical scenarios of how I would have played out the hand, just to discuss potential turning points for the game to gain/regain control of the matchup you felt slipping out of your hand. Playing the LED is a good idea to protect them from Therapy in the first place if you don't plan to work with the natural stormcount. Once more the advice to drop the LED was given in the context of you having already played the Probe turn 1. The LED mana here is relevant if you draw into an IT as you had enough mana to cast IT->AN post-Brainstorm afaik.


Seems I was confused with my notes. At many places, I have a second FoW noted in her hand. In my mind too, but I can't figure where she got it from, or how I remember the existence of this one. I'm perplex. It's like we both made an illegal play on turn one, when I asked her to go back at the start so I could take note of everything. Reading her opening hand, I wonder if the Nether Shadow wasn't in a fact a FoW, and that she drew the Shadow at the start of her turn and we didn't do it properly after the recover. That would be, without a doubt, the second FoW. Yeah, way to ask for help when I can't give proper board states...

Well, I'm just confused, but as mentioned before, the primary focus here is to find a way to combo and bother with potential countermeasures afterwards (and just in case), so I'm fine to focus on this matter discussing the scenario and leave the exact counter configuration aside


I did not bring the Xantids because I tried to do, literally, as you said earlier. The exact same thing. Evidences don't go in this direction, but I'm actually trying to learn and apply what I can get of your knowledge, Lemnear. Even if, sometimes, taking things too literally is indeed a bad move. What would you side out for the Xantids? Empty the Warrens? (Yes, that was a joke.)

I don't consider FoW + MBT a typical boarding for Manaless, so I haven't considered it in my precious suggestion. If you know about the counters unlike me), don't follow my advice strictly, but let reason be your sideboard guide and include the Xantids. I'd play them in case of the 2 Duress and a Ponder (no joke)


Thanks a lot.

Ya welcome

[Final Fortune]

Curious if other people have been cutting Xantid Swarms in favour of a better match up vs aggro-control and control decks, I've been trying out stuff like Carpet of Flowers, City of Traitors, Cabal Ritual etc. with fair results and haven't seen much Reanimator or Show&Tell with Leyline of Sanctity lately.

My board looks something like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 (Mana Slots)

with 3 Duress, 3 Infernal Tutor and Fetch over Bayou in the MD.

[Lemnear]

Curious if other people have been cutting Xantid Swarms in favour of a better match up vs aggro-control and control decks, I've been trying out stuff like Carpet of Flowers, City of Traitors, Cabal Ritual etc. with fair results and haven't seen much Reanimator or Show&Tell with Leyline of Sanctity lately.

My board looks something like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 (Mana Slots)

with 3 Duress, 3 Infernal Tutor and Fetch over Bayou in the MD.

Bryant and I had this topic in a chatter a few weeks ago, but it wasn't in the context of the long-not-seen Leyline but in terms of that Xantid is pointless vs Omniscience if you never get to attack before dying. The Xantids went from 3 down to 2 as a first step as the card is still fine against Miracles and Infect just to name two. I pondered about replacing them with Pyroblasts but wasn't able to gather enough data to see if cutting the bugs appears to be fine. I guess I fear to lose the edge against counter-overloads or SDT+Flusterstorm

I'd like to test a 4/2/2/2 of Decay/Xantid/Pyroblasts/CoV before signing for the GP

[Pelikanudo]

Curious if other people have been cutting Xantid Swarms in favour of a better match up vs aggro-control and control decks, I've been trying out stuff like Carpet of Flowers, City of Traitors, Cabal Ritual etc. with fair results and haven't seen much Reanimator or Show&Tell with Leyline of Sanctity lately.

My board looks something like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 (Mana Slots)

with 3 Duress, 3 Infernal Tutor and Fetch over Bayou in the MD.

Hi, long time I don't hear about you!

I'm not currently playing mtg due to a very busy state, but OmniTell has been a great part of my meta so my statement is beeing as fast as posible vs this archetype:
- thats why I still play 4 I.T. main and Bribery --> thinking to switching to Telemins Performance because it seems better vs this archetype
- because I have a personal battle vs Miracles I play 4 A.D. which also serves me to other roles (lately I've been seeing a lot of M.M and Null Rods in Team America builds by here) AND 2 Xantids - as I find them also ok vs miracles
- I think that Xantid adds speeds vs OmniTell in the case you draw it - because the reality is that is that is useless when you draw it if the Opp. intends to play S&T to Omniscience in next turn as opposite to Sneak... AND if you don't have C.Therapy for flashbacking it...

yes, I've not seen too many Leylines lately... but still want to save Xantid for Sneak or Miracles - 2 is ok for me.

A NOTE: in my TNT build is just play more discard effects and bouncers as opposite to TES --> in here discard plus discard and more discard and Raw Power just makes me win vs this archetype (I remember even discarding the Emrakul to make the opp has worse top deck.... imagine.)

A 2nd NOTE: I still play the 12 land manabase with gemstones. and bayou in side.

EDIT: related to pyroblast - long time ago I don't play it and I either don't plan to play it - A.D. acomplishes this role and it is worse than more discard or Xantid vs Control/Agr in my opinion.

[Final Fortune]

Bryant and I had this topic in a chatter a few weeks ago, but it wasn't in the context of the long-not-seen Leyline but in terms of that Xantid is pointless vs Omniscience if you never get to attack before dying. The Xantids went from 3 down to 2 as a first step as the card is still fine against Miracles and Infect just to name two. I pondered about replacing them with Pyroblasts but wasn't able to gather enough data to see if cutting the bugs appears to be fine. I guess I fear to lose the edge against counter-overloads or SDT+Flusterstorm

I'd like to test a 4/2/2/2 of Decay/Xantid/Pyroblasts/CoV before signing for the GP

I think Reanimator and Omniscience are too "fringe" in terms of over all numbers in order to SB against them, and Reanimator seems to be kept in check by the meta especially. Xantid Swarm is ok vs Miracles, but so is Inquisition of Kozilek (or SB Thoughtseize(s), I tend to SB out 3 Duress for 2 Inquisition of Kozilek and a Thoughtseize vs non-blue decks instead of for Chain Vapour because I'd rather discard the problem before it resolves instead of returning it to the opponent's hand and our manabase revolves around Swamp instead of Island vs Wasteland) as you're generally just trading one weakness for another - you lose vs a resolved Top with Inquisition of Kozilek, you lose vs a resolved C.Balance with Xantid Swarm etc. I just feel like they're taking up space right now that could be better put to use vs more common matchups and we could use that space to be a little more durable vs BUG/RUG etc.

@Pelikanudo

I don't think there's anything really wrong with the older lists, but frankly I play against too much RUG/BUG to give up my MD Fetches and Basic and I really prefer the maximum fetchland count in order to get those Brainstorms and Ponders digging as far as possible into the deck. Other than Counterbalance insurance, I think removal/bounce is a waste of time and I'd rather sit back on Swamp and Discard. I can either Burning Wish for an answer when I have to, or I can scoop if the hate does resolve and take the initiative in the next game in order to be able to discard over two turns before they can resolve a hate bear, Null Rod etc.

For me, everything revolves around Swamp, and to a lesser extent Threshold now that I've been boarding out 2xChrome Mox for 2xCabal Ritual.

[HSCK]

Uh, OmniTell is the 2nd best performing deck of the last few months to Miracles.

[Final Fortune]

Uh, OmniTell is the 2nd best performing deck of the last few months to Miracles.

I personally don't see it, I'm not saying the deck isn't good.

[Lemnear]

EDIT: related to pyroblast - long time ago I don't play it and I either don't plan to play it - A.D. acomplishes this role and it is worse than more discard or Xantid vs Control/Agr in my opinion.

You can Decay an Omniscience and S&T? Xantid removes Meddling Mages? ;)


I think Reanimator and Omniscience are too "fringe" in terms of over all numbers in order to SB against them, and Reanimator seems to be kept in check by the meta especially. Xantid Swarm is ok vs Miracles, but so is Inquisition of Kozilek (or SB Thoughtseize(s), I tend to SB out 3 Duress for 2 Inquisition of Kozilek and a Thoughtseize vs non-blue decks instead of for Chain Vapour because I'd rather discard the problem before it resolves instead of returning it to the opponent's hand and our manabase revolves around Swamp instead of Island vs Wasteland) as you're generally just trading one weakness for another - you lose vs a resolved Top with Inquisition of Kozilek, you lose vs a resolved C.Balance with Xantid Swarm etc. I just feel like they're taking up space right now that could be better put to use vs more common matchups and we could use that space to be a little more durable vs BUG/RUG etc.

Please ... OmniTell and Miracles are the two most played and best performing archtypes these days and far from "fringe".

I see absolutely no sense in switching discard spells which occupy your sideboard just to hit creatures and leave you totally helpless in case your opponent topdecks a hatebear. CoV does not care about if your opponent has the hate-permanent in hand or not and is ergo a lot more flexible than additional discard. I'm baffled the idea to handle everything with discard is still around even after the attempts to battle Miracles with Pyroblasts and discard alone delivered a clear result of how bad the idea is to just lose to resolved stuff on the field which opponents topdeck or cantrip into.

It's not that additional discard helps you against the named SDT or Counterbalance either, so there is no reason to point fingers at Xantid vs. Counterbalance. It's funny if you talk about RUG in terms of "common matchups", but call OmniTell "fringe".


I think removal/bounce is a waste of time and I'd rather sit back on Swamp and Discard. I can either Burning Wish for an answer when I have to, or I can scoop if the hate does resolve and take the initiative in the next game in order to be able to discard over two turns before they can resolve a hate bear, Null Rod etc.

For me, everything revolves around Swamp, and to a lesser extent Threshold now that I've been boarding out 2xChrome Mox for 2xCabal Ritual.

How is Wishing for an answer to a topdecked Thalia/Canonist/MeddlingMage/Teeg any less of a "waste of time" than bouncing the creature eot and combo off? You think it's ok to just lose vs. a common play like Medding Mage @ Wish? You point to sitting back and cast discard as if your opponent can never topdeck another hatebear or shit. Dood, you CAN sit back with CoV and just watch IF your opponent topdecks a hatebear instead. There is one hell of a strategic difference.

You run 2 Cabal Rituals in the board? Why not mainboard? I don't have the feeling your SB space is used wisely, but just more of the stuff you already run in the MB instead of using the SB to cover another angle of defense/attack.

[Final Fortune]

You can Decay an Omniscience and S&T? Xantid removes Meddling Mages? ;)



Please ... OmniTell and Miracles are the two most played and best performing archtypes these days and far from "fringe".

I see absolutely no sense in switching discard spells which occupy your sideboard just to hit creatures and leave you totally helpless in case your opponent topdecks a hatebear. CoV does not care about if your opponent has the hate-permanent in hand or not and is ergo a lot more flexible than additional discard. I'm baffled the idea to handle everything with discard is still around even after the attempts to battle Miracles with Pyroblasts and discard alone delivered a clear result of how bad the idea is to just lose to resolved stuff on the field which opponents topdeck or cantrip into.

It's not that additional discard helps you against the named SDT or Counterbalance either, so there is no reason to point fingers at Xantid vs. Counterbalance. It's funny if you talk about RUG in terms of "common matchups", but call OmniTell "fringe".



How is Wishing for an answer to a topdecked Thalia/Canonist/MeddlingMage/Teeg any less of a "waste of time" than bouncing the creature eot and combo off? You think it's ok to just lose vs. a common play like Medding Mage @ Wish? You point to sitting back and cast discard as if your opponent can never topdeck another hatebear or shit. Dood, you CAN sit back with CoV and just watch IF your opponent topdecks a hatebear instead. There is one hell of a strategic difference.

You run 2 Cabal Rituals in the board? Why not mainboard? I don't have the feeling your SB space is used wisely, but just more of the stuff you already run in the MB instead of using the SB to cover another angle of defense/attack.

There are differences in metagames across the world and I don't see Omniscience, let alone Omniscience with Leyline of Sanctity, as much as every one else is saying they are - I made no mention of Miracles being a fringe deck whatsoever and yes RUG/BUG are still fairly popular in my area hence my preference for 8 MD Fetchlands, SB Bayou and wanting to have more relevant cards than Chain of Vapour and Xantid Swarm to SB in against them.

Ok, comparing hate bear decks and Miracles decks is nonsense, first we have the game 1 advantage against hate bear decks by virtue of being a T2 combo deck, meaning we're likely to see a 3 game match at worst. Of those 3 games, we should play the deciding game on the play, which gives us twice as many turns to discard their hate before we could lose the match. I don't find non-blue decks, let alone non-blue decks without MD hate bears or prison pieces, enough of a threat to justify SBing Chain of Vapour at all, nor do I find Chain of Vapour a good strategy vs Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere for that matter. At least with Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize, I can still SB out ineffectual cards like Duress for cards that statistically reduce the odds that I will see a resolved hate bear or prison pieace. And in the event I do see a resolved hatebear, there is still a chance that I can Burning Wish for an answer, and Burning Wish is a card that is already in the deck, making a comparison between Burning Wish and Chain of Vapour innane, without dilluting my SB/MD with a card that has no application in the aggro-control match up and doesn't let me prevent my opponent from using multiple angles of attack like Discard + Hatebears, Mindbreak Trap + Hatebears etc (in the case of Thoughtseize instead of Inquistion of Kozilek, I've tried 3xThoughtseize as well). Only D&T is really that linear for Chain of Vapour to be a strictly better card, and even then Thoughtseizie/IOK do a better job of addressing Wasteland because you can cast it off of the Swamp instead of a Dual.

So you don't need Chain of Vapour to really make the difference vs D&T, 1 Thoughtseize + 2 Inquisition of Kozilek still lets you SB out Duress for better cards in those match ups and Inquisition of Kozilek can be used in the aggro-control match ups where Chain of Vapour can't.

Ok, Miracles is another matter entirely, because Miracles has the game 1 advantage by virtue of being blue and can protect its prison pieces with counters or cantrip for it's lock pieces as opposed to top deck them, and here I'm just subbing out Xantid Swarm for Inquisition of Kozilek while still using Abrupt Decay to remove resolved hate because obviously hate is far more likely to be drawn, protected and resolved by Miracles than D&T. Yes, I'm obviously more vulnerable to resolved hate from Miracles, but at the same time I should statistically see less of that resolved hate by discarding it from their opening hand. So I'm trading off a card that I think is ok in Miracles for another card I think is ok in Miracles in favour of having something I can SB in the aggro-control match up as well. Inquistion of Kozilek is essentially linearizing disruption/answers to permanent hate in order to compact the total number of SB slots I have to spend on addressing those problems.

I'm not happy with Xantid Swarm at the moment because I don't see the decks it's best against and I have never liked Chain of Vapour (and you already questioned Xantid Swarm vs Omniscience any way, it was only ever really good vs Show&Tell decks that played creatures IMO) and I want to be able to board out Chrome Mox in the aggro-control match ups so I can play a grindier game while still retaining some of my speed. I don't know if Cabal Ritual is better than Carpet of Flowers or City of Traitors for that, it's just something I'm trying out.

I don't get why you mention Meddling Mage, that's usually taken care of by boarding in Grape Shot vs Stonebade any way, but if Meddling Mage ever has the numbers to be a seroius problem then I'd SB 1 Pyroblast to hedge between a post-board MD and Wish removal option. It's not like you SB in Chain of Vapour vs any deck that would play Meddling Mage any way, so to me a lot of your points just seem a bit rantish.

I thought about going to Inquisition of Kozilek over Chain of Vapour a lot, and frankly having the added boarding options vs aggro-control seems more relevant than a card that lets me win a won match up even harder. Maybe I'll just end up cutting the extra acceleration in the SB for a Pyroblast and a Telemin's Performance or something if Meddling Mage and Omniscience start making a presence in my meta, I just find Swarm and Chain overly specific right now.

[Lemnear]

There are differences in metagames across the world and I don't see Omniscience, let alone Omniscience with Leyline of Sanctity, as much as every one else is saying they are - I made no mention of Miracles being a fringe deck whatsoever and yes RUG/BUG are still fairly popular in my area hence my preference for 8 MD Fetchlands, SB Bayou and wanting to have more relevant cards than Chain of Vapour and Xantid Swarm to SB in against them.

No one talked about OmniTell + Leyline. I talk about the average metagame structure according to data painting a different picture than you did calling OmniTell "fringe" and RUG "common" despite the later has only 3% metagame representation. It makes no sense for me to give metagame advice based in what you or me see in our shops.


Ok, comparing hate bear decks and Miracles decks is nonsense, first we have the game 1 advantage against hate bear decks by virtue of being a T2 combo deck, meaning we're likely to see a 3 game match at worst. Of those 3 games, we should play the deciding game on the play, which gives us twice as many turns to discard their hate before we could lose the match.

Wait, you are telling me that you evaluate your starting hand based on how it fares against the 16% of the metagame which do not play blue but any form of hate-permanents, so you don't come in the situation that you keep a solid turn 3 hand against the remaining 84% (which play blue) with Duress and Brainstorm (for example) which gets fucked hard by an unexpected Thalia? Am I the only one evaluating starting hands based on 4/5 of the metagame instead of the 1/5?

Who says you never lose game 1 so you can guarantee being on the play in game 3? What if you lose G1, win G2 and start G3 on the draw? Bank on you drawing into a turn 1 kill opener? Hope you draw into Therapy, name the right thing and your opponent not topdecking a Canonist/Thalia/Thorn/etc.? Really? CoV eliminates a lot of these problems and weaknesses.

Comparing turn 2 Thalia to turn 2 Counterbalance is a valid comparison imo.


I don't find non-blue decks, let alone non-blue decks without MD hate bears or prison pieces, enough of a threat to justify SBing Chain of Vapour at all, nor do I find Chain of Vapour a good strategy vs Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere for that matter.

Which viable non-blue deck doesn't run MB hate permanents? Which of those viable non-blue decks isn't boarding discard and/or more hate-permanents in addition? They ALL do.


At least with Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize, I can still SB out ineffectual cards like Duress for cards that statistically reduce the odds that I will see a resolved hate bear or prison pieace.

Interresting. I never knew those cards had an effect on topdecks or redundancy of hate-permanents in opponents hand.


And in the event I do see a resolved hatebear, there is still a chance that I can Burning Wish for an answer, and Burning Wish is a card that is already in the deck, making a comparison between Burning Wish and Chain of Vapour innane, without dilluting my SB/MD with a card that has no application in the aggro-control match up and doesn't let me prevent my opponent from using multiple angles of attack like Discard + Hatebears, Mindbreak Trap + Hatebears etc (in the case of Thoughtseize instead of Inquistion of Kozilek, I've tried 3xThoughtseize as well). Only D&T is really that linear for Chain of Vapour to be a strictly better card, and even then Thoughtseizie/IOK do a better job of addressing Wasteland because you can cast it off of the Swamp instead of a Dual.

Burning Wish with a Thorn of Amethyst on the field to find what? Opting to get to 3 mana against D&T post Thalia? Saying that CoV has no application against aggro-control decks like Stoneblade with MeddlingMage/Canonist is totally off and it sounds like you never fueled storm with CoV either. Don't come up with "CoV useless against multiple angles of attack" as long as you are fine to just lose to resolved hate-permanents pre- & postboard.


So you don't need Chain of Vapour to really make the difference vs D&T, 1 Thoughtseize + 2 Inquisition of Kozilek still lets you SB out Duress for better cards in those match ups and Inquisition of Kozilek can be used in the aggro-control match ups where Chain of Vapour can't.

yeah, TS & IoK are better than Duress vs. D&T, but that does not say anything about their strenght compared to CoV or the general nonsense to board discard for discard. Again: Claiming that CoV as no application against aggro-control is 100% wrong. Do you use your own definition of "Aggro-Control = RUG/BUG Delver only" here?


Ok, Miracles is another matter entirely, because Miracles has the game 1 advantage by virtue of being blue and can protect its prison pieces with counters or cantrip for it's lock pieces as opposed to top deck them, and here I'm just subbing out Xantid Swarm for Inquisition of Kozilek while still using Abrupt Decay to remove resolved hate because obviously hate is far more likely to be drawn, protected and resolved by Miracles than D&T.

Never heared of SDT floating counters or increasing the access to those, hu?


Yes, I'm obviously more vulnerable to resolved hate from Miracles, but at the same time I should statistically see less of that resolved hate by discarding it from their opening hand.

...and this is not true at all. Do you think you can prevent a SDT/Ponder/Brainstoem from finding countermeasures and just slam them on the table/float them? Don't use the word "statistically" unless you account the density of Counterbalance/FoW/MeddlingMage/Ponder/Flusterstorm/Brainstorm/SDT postboard.


So I'm trading off a card that I think is ok in Miracles for another card I think is ok in Miracles in favour of having something I can SB in the aggro-control match up as well. Inquistion of Kozilek is essentially linearizing disruption/answers to permanent hate in order to compact the total number of SB slots I have to spend on addressing those problems.

IoK does not deal with FoW; Xantid does. Your whole point in regards to Miracles and Aggro-Control is invalid


I'm not happy with Xantid Swarm at the moment because I don't see the decks it's best against and I have never liked Chain of Vapour (and you already questioned Xantid Swarm vs Omniscience any way, it was only ever really good vs Show&Tell decks that played creatures IMO) and I want to be able to board out Chrome Mox in the aggro-control match ups so I can play a grindier game while still retaining some of my speed. I don't know if Cabal Ritual is better than Carpet of Flowers or City of Traitors for that, it's just something I'm trying out.

I'm not amazed by Xantid either, but it still has application against decks like OmniTell (not to react to S&T but to deal with DTT into FoW or shenanigans alike), Miracles and Infect for example and I'm not convinced IoK can improve tbose matchups in any way. You may want to test with Crystal Vein which lets you pile up lands compared to City of Traitors


I don't get why you mention Meddling Mage, that's usually taken care of by boarding in Grape Shot vs Stonebade any way, but if Meddling Mage ever has the numbers to be a seroius problem then I'd SB 1 Pyroblast to hedge between a post-board MD and Wish removal option. It's not like you SB in Chain of Vapour vs any deck that would play Meddling Mage any way, so to me a lot of your points just seem a bit rantish.

GS was a singleton and can't deal with Canonist. It got cut. I sideboard answers if I expect hatebears which any Stoneblade variant does run. CoV is still absolutely valid to be used as a storm engine. It's not rantish to point at the fact that discard-only failed as a concept more than once and you are running Decays instead of saying "Meh, I can simply discard Counterbalance/Chalice/Thorn/Trinisphere before it gets played"


I thought about going to Inquisition of Kozilek over Chain of Vapour a lot, and frankly having the added boarding options vs aggro-control seems more relevant than a card that lets me win a won match up even harder. Maybe I'll just end up cutting the extra acceleration in the SB for a Pyroblast and a Telemin's Performance or something if Meddling Mage and Omniscience start making a presence in my meta, I just find Swarm and Chain overly specific right now.

This is just too much of a hyperbole to take it serious, not giving any credit to the 16% non-blue decks in the metagame.

[LDX]

Took some time to think about everything said so far. Next games are tomorrow, and while I think I grasp the majority of the help I received, we're never sure enough to avoid a double check. This should be easy to review, let's just hope only a few corrections are needed! As stated last time, we'll focus on what we know for sure instead of speculating on the different scenarios everytime. I'll try to have precise questions on the different matchups and keep the questions short & clean. I also have some general interrogations, but those shall be listed at the end, in the same ''easy question/easy answer'' format. Hopefully this will also help a lot of beginners out here. Thanks for your time!

I will be playing the 05/20 decklist, with the exception of a Pyroclasm instead of a Thoughtseize in the sideboard.

Expected decks (if decklists are important, I can post last week lists)

Player 1
The Gate
Loam Pox

Player 2
Death & Taxes (playing 3 Chalice of the Void sideboard)

Player 3
Burn
Manaless Dredge
Elves! (most likely not, but could make a suprise apparition)

Player 4
Affinity (new deck in town!)

Player 5
Oops! All spells

Player XYZ
(Other players might join, but since it's unlikely, let's just skip every scenario and focus on what we know.)



VS Player 1: The Gate or Loam Pox

What I understood from the advices given

-Win as soon as possible (no, not combo, WIN)

-Because he has Pernicious Deeds isn't good enough of a reason to sideboard out Empty the Warren

-Play the mana artifacts as soon as possible, don't let them be discarded

-My hand shredded, but drawing a cantrip into tutor, with the artifacts on the ground, should be enough to win

-Don't bother the Abrupt Decay vs Pernicious Deeds, it slows down too much when you're trying to win as soon as possible

-Smarter uses of Cabal Therapy / Goblins synergy

-Don't board Tendrils of Agony, it makes it harder to find

-I have to make decisions on the spot regarding the win I'm looking for, between 3 choices: quick AN, artifacts down + top deck mode, or Empty the Warrens and small use of discard

My questions

-I have a blind turn 1 Empty the Warrens. I know he runs Pernicious Deeds and Golgari Charm in his deck, but I have no discard for it, nor can I see his hand. Do I go for it?

-My rituals are in the graveyard, my hand is gone, I have some artifacts in play, no tutors to be found. I draw a Burning Wish. If I go get Past in Flames right now, I can build up mana & storm counters, but I don't have any tutor to win. My Burning Wish is most likely to get discarded anyway. I see three scenarios:
1) go get Past in Flames now, it will be discarded, but you can flashback it when you have an other tutor
2) wait and get your Burning Wish discarded, so the next time you draw one, you can flashback the one in your grave with a future Past in Flames
3) get Past in Flames and go all in, hoping your cantrips in your grave give you something good
Which option do you go for, or is something else more likely to happen?

Sideboarding attempt

None.


VS Player 2: Death and Taxes

What I understood from the advices given

-Combo as fast as possible, you may only have one shot, one opportunity, to seize everything you ever wanted, rest of the song, end.

-They're very weak to early Goblins, don't be afraid to take your shot

-End of opponent's turn Chain of Vapor on Thalia hurts a lot

-Personnal advice: when your combo is done, and you have 12 Goblins, don't bother flashbacking Cabal Therapy on Thalia... get the Stoneforge instead. (Sad story)

-Don't board Chalice of the Void against D&T

My questions

-Pyroclasm and Grapeshot are both in the sideboard. Which one do you sideboard in, which one do you keep out? Knowing there's also a Massacre ready for use.

-The reason we're not boarding the Abrupt Decay against these Chalice of the Void is because it reduces our chance for a turn 1 combo, correct? If not, what's the reasoning behind it?

Sideboarding attempt

-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Pyroclasm


VS Player 3: Manaless Dredge, Burn, or Elves!

What I understood from the advices given

-Don't board Tendrils of Agony

-Abrupt Decay is too slow here too

-Learn your own deck before trying to play against your opponent's

-Manaless HAS one hell of a problem to race T1 Goblins. HAS! Just saying

-As with other discard decks, drop the artifacts if you fear the Cabal Therapy

-The longer the game goes on, move the focus from Empty the Warrens to Ad Nauseam

-If you expect the blue shell on Manaless, bring the Xantid Swarm

-Elves are gone to Pyroclasm

My questions

-Bryant sides out 2 Duress and 1 Ponder vs Elves, but talks about Empty the Warrens being unwanted. How important is it over the Ponder? Implying we want to Ad Nauseam as soon as possible.

-How good can Elves! defend against T1 Goblins?

-While it WOULD be counterproductive to go for Goblins and have Pyroclasm in hand, the scenario is too unlikely to happen to play around it and make changes to our sideboard plan, correct?

Sideboarding attempt

Manaless

None.

Burn

-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Grapeshot

Elves!

-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Pyroclasm


VS Player 4: Affinity

What I understood from the advices given

-Bring Abrupt Decay if they have Chalice of the Void

My questions

-The deck is much faster than D&T, so why are we bringing Abrupt Decay here, and not in D&T, since both run Chalice? Is it because we are not trying for Goblins/combo ASAP?

-Are we better discarding their threat or their hate?

Sideboarding attempt

-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
-1 Empty the Warrens
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Pyroclasm


VS Player 5: Oops! All spells

What I understood from the advices given

-Stall them, they die

My questions

-Is Empty the Warrens too slow in this matchup? I would board it out and have no threat maindeck, but I don't have a discard in my sideboard.

Sideboarding attempt

None.


General questions

-It seems like Pyroclasm and Grapeshot play the same role. Would it be good to cut of of them for a Thoughtseize? How useful a Thoughtseize could be in my planned games, over an additionnal Pyro/Grape effect?

-How often do you go turn 1 if you can't see your opponent's hand?

-If you have, for instance, a turn 1 go for Empty and a Duress. Do you go for Empty first, then Duress next turn, or do you play safe, play Duress, and Empty next turn? Or do you play anything at all?



Once again, I appreciate quite a lot. Thank you for your time and patience. I will check any answers, but I won't be able to reply. However, I should come back tomorrow by night for a report and probably more gameplay specific questions. I don't seek mastery yet, but hopefully, we'll see an improvement from last time.

Wish me luck!

[Lemnear]

Took some time to think about everything said so far. Next games are tomorrow, and while I think I grasp the majority of the help I received, we're never sure enough to avoid a double check. This should be easy to review, let's just hope only a few corrections are needed! As stated last time, we'll focus on what we know for sure instead of speculating on the different scenarios everytime. I'll try to have precise questions on the different matchups and keep the questions short & clean. I also have some general interrogations, but those shall be listed at the end, in the same ''easy question/easy answer'' format. Hopefully this will also help a lot of beginners out here. Thanks for your time!

I will be playing the 05/20 decklist, with the exception of a Pyroclasm instead of a Thoughtseize in the sideboard.

Expected decks (if decklists are important, I can post last week lists)

Player 1
The Gate
Loam Pox

Player 2
Death & Taxes (playing 3 Chalice of the Void sideboard)

Player 3
Burn
Manaless Dredge
Elves! (most likely not, but could make a suprise apparition)

Player 4
Affinity (new deck in town!)

Player 5
Oops! All spells

Player XYZ
(Other players might join, but since it's unlikely, let's just skip every scenario and focus on what we know.)



VS Player 1: The Gate or Loam Pox

What I understood from the advices given

-Win as soon as possible (no, not combo, WIN) yes. If "win" is not possible "combo" is acceptable

-Because he has Pernicious Deeds isn't good enough of a reason to sideboard out Empty the Warren yep

-Play the mana artifacts as soon as possible, don't let them be discarded yep. Just don't thow them into a known Deed

-My hand shredded, but drawing a cantrip into tutor, with the artifacts on the ground, should be enough to win yep

-Don't bother the Abrupt Decay vs Pernicious Deeds, it slows down too much when you're trying to win as soon as possible

-Smarter uses of Cabal Therapy / Goblins synergy yep

-Don't board Tendrils of Agony, it makes it harder to find yep

-I have to make decisions on the spot regarding the win I'm looking for, between 3 choices: quick AN, artifacts down + top deck mode, or Empty the Warrens and small use of discard yep

My questions

-I have a blind turn 1 Empty the Warrens. I know he runs Pernicious Deeds and Golgari Charm in his deck, but I have no discard for it, nor can I see his hand. Do I go for it? yep. Just yolo against his sweepers is just fine as he can keep a hand with discard/wasteland which will do nothing against the goblins

-My rituals are in the graveyard, my hand is gone, I have some artifacts in play, no tutors to be found. I draw a Burning Wish. If I go get Past in Flames right now, I can build up mana & storm counters, but I don't have any tutor to win. My Burning Wish is most likely to get discarded anyway. I see three scenarios:
1) go get Past in Flames now, it will be discarded, but you can flashback it when you have an other tutor
2) wait and get your Burning Wish discarded, so the next time you draw one, you can flashback the one in your grave with a future Past in Flames
3) get Past in Flames and go all in, hoping your cantrips in your grave give you something good
Which option do you go for, or is something else more likely to happen?

you use flashbacked cantrips to find an Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish before flashing back mana. If you fizzle with the cantrips you can still flash back PIF and the Rituals later

Sideboarding attempt

None. yep


VS Player 2: Death and Taxes

What I understood from the advices given

-Combo as fast as possible, you may only have one shot, one opportunity, to seize everything you ever wanted, rest of the song, end. there is a support angle I have not talked with you about to not flood you with several angles at once and this angle boils down to "wish for massacre asap". If you have massacre in hand and have a fetch or black-mana landrop available, you can clean the board at any time giving you time to play "land, go" and sculpt your hand without further panicing of how to get all the mana together to sweep Thalia and friends adter they hit the board. You can basically slowroll the game with Massacre in hand (Vial on the field + Hatebear in hand aside)

-They're very weak to early Goblins, don't be afraid to take your shot yep

-End of opponent's turn Chain of Vapor on Thalia hurts a lot yep

-Personnal advice: when your combo is done, and you have 12 Goblins, don't bother flashbacking Cabal Therapy on Thalia... get the Stoneforge instead. (Sad story) Do this only if you know about the SFM for sure, otherwise just wait for them to waste mana at potentially topdecked SFM you could never discard anyways and take the equipment with the flashback instead. Advice: Check your yard for Cabal Therapies EVERY TIME you casr EtW. Make this a habit

-Don't board Chalice of the Void against D&T I don't run Chalice of the Void in storm ;)

My questions

-Pyroclasm and Grapeshot are both in the sideboard. Which one do you sideboard in, which one do you keep out? Knowing there's also a Massacre ready for use. If you have all three cards in the SB, board GS and Clasm. I SB out is enough

-The reason we're not boarding the Abrupt Decay against these Chalice of the Void is because it reduces our chance for a turn 1 combo, correct? If not, what's the reasoning behind it? You hint at Chalice in the D&T SB, right? Decay has the problem of costing 3 under thalia and comes with potential color-problems in the presence of Wasteland. I fear you have to accept that sweetspot. You can't prepare for Thalia + Chalice + Wasteland other than relying on the Belcher-Mode. :/

Sideboarding attempt

-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Pyroclasm you can board Void Snares or Grapeshot for more Ponders for example


VS Player 3: Manaless Dredge, Burn, or Elves!

What I understood from the advices given

-Don't board Tendrils of Agony yep

-Abrupt Decay is too slow here too yep

-Learn your own deck before trying to play against your opponent's yep

-Manaless HAS one hell of a problem to race T1 Goblins. HAS! Just saying yep lol

-As with other discard decks, drop the artifacts if you fear the Cabal Therapy yep

-The longer the game goes on, move the focus from Empty the Warrens to Ad Nauseam yep ... or PIF

-If you expect the blue shell on Manaless, bring the Xantid Swarm yep. Remove Duress' for those

-Elves are gone to Pyroclasm yep. Another advice: Don't expect EtW for less than 14 T1/2 to stand a chance

My questions

-Bryant sides out 2 Duress and 1 Ponder vs Elves, but talks about Empty the Warrens being unwanted. How important is it over the Ponder? Implying we want to Ad Nauseam as soon as possible. see above. Elves can race/block EtW with a range of starting hands. 10 Goblins on the draw for example should result into you losing to Craterhoof as they block one or the other goblin with Nettle Sentinel or DRS for an additional turn gained and stomp you by turn 3 or 4

-How good can Elves! defend against T1 Goblins? They do pretty good against goblins. see above

-While it WOULD be counterproductive to go for Goblins and have Pyroclasm in hand, the scenario is too unlikely to happen to play around it and make changes to our sideboard plan, correct? I don't see a conflict here. You sweep and play EtW afterwards. Best done in a single turn ;)

Sideboarding attempt

Manaless

None. yep depending on blue-splash

Burn

-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Grapeshot yep

Elves!

-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Pyroclasm remlve EtW and bring in GS/Clasm/etc. but no Chains and do not remove Duress. They run discard postboard which you can trade 1-for-1 or delay their combo by discarding Glimpse/GSZ/NaturalOrder. Ruric Thar alone is no excuse for CoV imo


VS Player 4: Affinity

What I understood from the advices given

-Bring Abrupt Decay if they have Chalice of the Void you can do that. If they tend to drop Chalice @ 0, I switch to CoV instead

My questions

-The deck is much faster than D&T, so why are we bringing Abrupt Decay here, and not in D&T, since both run Chalice? Is it because we are not trying for Goblins/combo ASAP? You overestimate their speed in relation to TES'. They don't kill you turn 3 in most cases and you can't afford to lose to Chalice. If you however fear about the speedloss by Decay, board CoV instead and gamble against Chalice @ 1

-Are we better discarding their threat or their hate? You can't discard Chalice @ 0 on the draw. The logic that discard can fix anything is flawed and the reason for my argument with Final Fortune you sure noticed

Sideboarding attempt

-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
-1 Empty the Warrens
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Pyroclasm would keep EtW. Decay vs. CoV is imo a matter of the opposing affinity deckbuild and player habit. Personally I'd gamble and run 2 CoV replacing the Duress' as CoV can be used as a storm-engine if life drops too fast


VS Player 5: Oops! All spells

What I understood from the advices given

-Stall them, they die yep

My questions

-Is Empty the Warrens too slow in this matchup? I would board it out and have no threat maindeck, but I don't have a discard in my sideboard. Its a belcher matchup. EtW is no option here if you don't have a proper boarding slot for EtW in this matchup, return the 4th Infernal to the MB if you have it in SB or the PIF. The later would support your plan for stalling them to death

Sideboarding attempt

None. yep


General questions

-It seems like Pyroclasm and Grapeshot play the same role. Would it be good to cut of of them for a Thoughtseize? How useful a Thoughtseize could be in my planned games, over an additionnal Pyro/Grape effect? I play neither of the three. GS and clasm are kinda similar in practical use but fix different problems you can encounter (Counter, Canonist to name just two where one of one option shines and the other sucks. Thoughtseize is a replacement for EtW in combo matchups and to increase the virtual denstiy of discard in the MB up to 10 instead of the regular 6 which has it's advantage in slower but controlish metagames. Personally I cannot justify stuff like Clasm in a metafame wnich contains only 16% non-blue decks

-How often do you go turn 1 if you can't see your opponent's hand? Every game 1. Games 2 & 3 depend on several factors like expected hate, playing blue or not, alternative options to the turn 1 combo attempt, etc.

-If you have, for instance, a turn 1 go for Empty and a Duress. Do you go for Empty first, then Duress next turn, or do you play safe, play Duress, and Empty next turn? Or do you play anything at all? Why should I play EtW before the Duress unless I fear to get my only-but-required black source hit by Wasteland if I lead with Duress? Its also related to the game 1/2/3 you play in. I cannot answer this question without further information about the scenario

Once again, I appreciate quite a lot. Thank you for your time and patience. I will check any answers, but I won't be able to reply. However, I should come back tomorrow by night for a report and probably more gameplay specific questions. I don't seek mastery yet, but hopefully, we'll see an improvement from last time.

Wish me luck!I do

P.S. sorry for the colors, mods. Quoting here was just totally unreasonanle for me to handle on mobile

[Final Fortune]

No one talked about OmniTell + Leyline. I talk about the average metagame structure according to data painting a different picture than you did calling OmniTell "fringe" and RUG "common" despite the later has only 3% metagame representation. It makes no sense for me to give metagame advice based in what you or me see in our shops.



Wait, you are telling me that you evaluate your starting hand based on how it fares against the 16% of the metagame which do not play blue but any form of hate-permanents, so you don't come in the situation that you keep a solid turn 3 hand against the remaining 84% (which play blue) with Duress and Brainstorm (for example) which gets fucked hard by an unexpected Thalia? Am I the only one evaluating starting hands based on 4/5 of the metagame instead of the 1/5?

Who says you never lose game 1 so you can guarantee being on the play in game 3? What if you lose G1, win G2 and start G3 on the draw? Bank on you drawing into a turn 1 kill opener? Hope you draw into Therapy, name the right thing and your opponent not topdecking a Canonist/Thalia/Thorn/etc.? Really? CoV eliminates a lot of these problems and weaknesses.

Comparing turn 2 Thalia to turn 2 Counterbalance is a valid comparison imo.



Which viable non-blue deck doesn't run MB hate permanents? Which of those viable non-blue decks isn't boarding discard and/or more hate-permanents in addition? They ALL do.



Interresting. I never knew those cards had an effect on topdecks or redundancy of hate-permanents in opponents hand.



Burning Wish with a Thorn of Amethyst on the field to find what? Opting to get to 3 mana against D&T post Thalia? Saying that CoV has no application against aggro-control decks like Stoneblade with MeddlingMage/Canonist is totally off and it sounds like you never fueled storm with CoV either. Don't come up with "CoV useless against multiple angles of attack" as long as you are fine to just lose to resolved hate-permanents pre- & postboard.



yeah, TS & IoK are better than Duress vs. D&T, but that does not say anything about their strenght compared to CoV or the general nonsense to board discard for discard. Again: Claiming that CoV as no application against aggro-control is 100% wrong. Do you use your own definition of "Aggro-Control = RUG/BUG Delver only" here?



Never heared of SDT floating counters or increasing the access to those, hu?



...and this is not true at all. Do you think you can prevent a SDT/Ponder/Brainstoem from finding countermeasures and just slam them on the table/float them? Don't use the word "statistically" unless you account the density of Counterbalance/FoW/MeddlingMage/Ponder/Flusterstorm/Brainstorm/SDT postboard.



IoK does not deal with FoW; Xantid does. Your whole point in regards to Miracles and Aggro-Control is invalid



I'm not amazed by Xantid either, but it still has application against decks like OmniTell (not to react to S&T but to deal with DTT into FoW or shenanigans alike), Miracles and Infect for example and I'm not convinced IoK can improve tbose matchups in any way. You may want to test with Crystal Vein which lets you pile up lands compared to City of Traitors



GS was a singleton and can't deal with Canonist. It got cut. I sideboard answers if I expect hatebears which any Stoneblade variant does run. CoV is still absolutely valid to be used as a storm engine. It's not rantish to point at the fact that discard-only failed as a concept more than once and you are running Decays instead of saying "Meh, I can simply discard Counterbalance/Chalice/Thorn/Trinisphere before it gets played"



This is just too much of a hyperbole to take it serious, not giving any credit to the 16% non-blue decks in the metagame.

I don't care about aggregate statistics, I care about my metagame.


Yes, I do take into consideration the other 84% of the metagame, and that's why I play a card that I can SB in those other 84% of matches rather than a card I can't.

Chain of Vapour has no application vs aggro-control decks because there is no aggro-control deck I would SB them in against, not BUG. RUG, UR or UWR and as far as I'm aware aggro-control in Legacy is defined by Delver of Secrets and Wasteland. What aggro-control deck in Legacy plays Thalia, and if I didn't expect Thalia why would I have boarded Chain of Vapour at all? They either play Meddling Mage, in which case Pyroblast is better than Chain of Vapour, or they play Ethersworn Canonist in which case you can wish for Grape Short.

I said Thoughtseize and IOK aren't as good as Chain of Vapour vs D&T, but they are good enough vs D&T. Trading discard for discard isn't nonsense, you always SB in Thoughtseize vs D&T anyway and IOK follows the same established principle.

As far as decks without MD hate, Elves and Burn? I don't think my win% vs either is determined by Chain of Vapour at all, and I don't think my win% vs D&T loses enough to matter given its presence in the meta. Yes I took losing game 1 vs D&T into consideration, I clearly stated it. I see less resolved hate with discard less than I do with Chain of Vapour vs D&T, and while I have no statistics to prove it I think it logically follows.

Yes IOK has problems vs Sensei's Diving Top, while Xantid Swarm has problems vs Terminus and Swords to Plowshares. Yes IOK doesn't address Force of Will, while Xantid Swarm doesn't address Counterbalance. Neither are great in the match up, it's just that I'd rather spend 2 cards on disruption/answers than 4 in my SB. So slightly worse vs D&T, equally mediocre vs Miracles so I can have something to SB in the RUG/BUG match ups.

A lot of the arguments vs IOK can be addressed by Thoughtseize as long as you can afford the life anyway.

I haven't cut GS, I've killed plenty of Canonists with it. I could run Massacre, but I don't like running so many SB cards for non-blue match ups.

Citing Abrupt Decay as proof all discard strategies failed is hyperbole, even if I didn't SB at all vs D&T I would still have a + win %. As long as Duress is cut for something better that's all that matters IMO.

I'll try Crystal Vein.

[sawatarix]

I found my Top4 match at GP Kyoto with japanese comments, hilarious ! :D

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1434611707

[Lemnear]

I don't care about aggregate statistics, I care about my metagame.

You should if that's your base for you giving advice to other peoples


Yes, I do take into consideration the other 84% of the metagame, and that's why I play a card that I can SB in those other 84% of matches rather than a card I can't.

Yeah you CAN SB IoK against FoW.dec but to me that does not make sense at all. At least not if you point at Xantids swarms being useless.


Chain of Vapour has no application vs aggro-control decks because there is no aggro-control deck I would SB them in against, not BUG. RUG, UR or UWR and as far as I'm aware aggro-control in Legacy is defined by Delver of Secrets and Wasteland.

Your arguments roots on your inability to differ "aggro-control" and "tempo"? Excellent, dood. Decks like Deathblade do run neither card and are ergo no "aggro-control"? You don't run outs to Meddling Mages out of UWR Delver aka Patriots SB?


What aggro-control deck in Legacy plays Thalia, and if I didn't expect Thalia why would I have boarded Chain of Vapour at all? They either play Meddling Mage, in which case Pyroblast is better than Chain of Vapour, or they play Ethersworn Canonist in which case you can wish for Grape Short.

Aggro-control decks in Legacy run Canonist or Meddling Mage. No one talked about Thalia in that context and only CoV adresses MM & Canonist. You don't think it's within your opponents gameplan that you need to split your Wish->GS over two turns and expose a red manasource to Wasteland just to dig you out of that hole? Oh and you need at least an artifact in addition for that


I said Thoughtseize and IOK aren't as good as Chain of Vapour vs D&T, but they are good enough vs D&T. Trading discard for discard isn't nonsense, you always SB in Thoughtseize vs D&T anyway and IOK follows the same established principle.

erm ... no? I SB -2 Duress +2 CoV running no SB discard at all. Running 3 SB discard spells and losing to resolved permanents is no established principle. Removing dead Duress for IoK/TS means wasting 3 slots for increased qualitiy of a strategic angle which does not win the game nor helps you to recover. I could point to CoV fueling stormcount in those regards.


As far as decks without MD hate, Elves and Burn? I don't think my win% vs either is determined by Chain of Vapour at all, and I don't think my win% vs D&T loses enough to matter given its presence in the meta. Yes I took losing game 1 vs D&T into consideration, I clearly stated it. I see less resolved hate with discard less than I do with Chain of Vapour vs D&T, and while I have no statistics to prove it I think it logically follows.

Ruric Thar and Eidolon are no MB hate for you? Are I'm talking with a metagame freshman? Burn is even boarding a full playset of Pillars in addition to the 4 MB Eidolons. Just saying. The bolded part is hilarious, Captain Obvious. Reads like "I see less of my Infernals countered if I discard the counters before". Brilliant

One MAY discard hate, the other removes hate IF it comes down. Apples and Oranges, but nice way to sidestep my points about hate-density, tempo aspects and topdecked hate


Yes IOK has problems vs Sensei's Diving Top, while Xantid Swarm has problems vs Terminus and Swords to Plowshares.

...which usually get drastically reduced postboard unlike SDTs.


Yes IOK doesn't address Force of Will, while Xantid Swarm doesn't address Counterbalance.

IoK only adress the Counterbalance in hand, no drawn/cantripped into ones. if you have a protected turn 2 combo (on the play) in your hand against an opposing hand of FoW+Counterbalance+[RandomBlueCard], Xantid wins this game turn 2, while IoK does not.


Neither are great in the match up, it's just that I'd rather spend 2 cards on disruption/answers than 4 in my SB. So slightly worse vs D&T, equally mediocre vs Miracles so I can have something to SB in the RUG/BUG match ups.

you waste two SB slots on mana (with the MB veing already 40% mana) and 3 on discard, so don't point at efficient use of SB space to tackle various matchups. I agree that I have no SB for RUG Delver, a deck with 3% metafame representation, but that's acceptable after I play more and strongermmana mainboars ro get around Daze and friends


A lot of the arguments vs IOK can be addressed by Thoughtseize as long as you can afford the life anyway.

...which you would not do as you consider tempo decks your primary enemy.


I haven't cut GS, I've killed plenty of Canonists with it. I could run Massacre, but I don't like running so many SB cards for non-blue match ups.

non-blue does not equal Elves/Burn/D&T which you can control with creature removal but also includes Lands.dec, MUD and Painter that's why I moved away from creature removal like GS or Pyroclasm and play general solutions like CoV instead. I just keep the Massacre because I want not to be surprised by Thalia if I keep solid game 1 hands vs. the 84% blue decks in the format.


Citing Abrupt Decay as proof all discard strategies failed is hyperbole, even if I didn't SB at all vs D&T I would still have a + win %. As long as Duress is cut for something better that's all that matters IMO.

It's just that I think 2 Xantids + 2 CoV + 2 Pyro are a lot more flexible than 2 IoK + 1 TS + 1 Grapeshot + 1 VS + 1 Bayou overall and leave less blindspots across the metagame. You have 10 discard spells in your 75 not talking about options to wish for them. Too much of the same for my taste.


I'll try Crystal Vein.

Mind that I played them as Wasteland was gone due to TC with all the consequences to the metagame caused by that. With Wasteland back, I could see color issues

[Asthereal]

Your arguments roots on your inability to differ "aggro-control" and "tempo"? Excellent, dood. Decks like Deathblade do run neither card and are ergo no "aggro-control"? You don't run outs to Meddling Mages out of UWR Delver aka Patriots SB?
This is of course a matter of definition, but here you are in the wrong I fear.

Aggro Control is the same as Tempo: drop a fast threat, disrupt the opponents development while attacking.
You are agressive and controllish at the same time, hence Aggro Control.

Midrange is the other side of this coin: not really aggressive but also not really controllish.
DeathBlade is a midrange deck, and so are most Patriot lists, the new Grixis thing and stuff like Maverick.
Midrange relies more on high impact cards (best example is Batterskull, but also Young Pyro and Knight of the Reliquary).

Of course there are crossovers, but this is how I heard we should define the two.

But anyway, more important is the ability to define what a deck aims to do, and how we should respond.
Midrange tends to be a good matchup for TES (high impact cards take time to set up, which we don't grant them).
Tempo strategies are harder, because they typically work with a faster clock and faster disruption.

[Lemnear]

I found my Top4 match at GP Kyoto with japanese comments, hilarious ! :D

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1434611707

It's as over the top as south american football commentators

[Lemnear]

This is of course a matter of definition, but here you are in the wrong I fear.

Aggro Control is the same as Tempo: drop a fast threat, disrupt the opponents development while attacking.
You are agressive and controllish at the same time, hence Aggro Control.

"tempo" is a subtype of the "aggro-control" supertype which pairs creatures with disruptive elements to hinder opposing game development. If you think about, it the concept includes a lot of decks, which are not even related to the common, narrow definition of "Counter + Creatures". Death & Taxes IS an "aggro-control" supertype and a "tempo" subtype just at RUG Delver as it chokes your opponent from developing their mana and play the spells they want. Deadguy Ale is an aggro-control supertype. Deathblade is an "aggro-control" supertype as well but isn't running Wasteland or Delver, which are (alongside Daze and/or Stifle) staples of the "tempo" subtype, but are not related to the "aggro-control" supertype.

It's like trying to find a common definition of "combo" cores pointing to Brainstorm + Ponder, willingly ignoring Belcher, Oops!, SI, etc.

Forgive me my little digression to deck theory, which would be an honor for me to continue while having a beer, if you could also make it to GP Lille, but limiting the "control"-aspect of the "aggro-control" supertype to "Counters" (ignoring discard, taxing effects, Sphere-Effects, Landdestruction, etc) and define a supertype based on cards one of his subtypes runs, appear narrow minded to me, especially as a foundation to discuss strategic SB approach based on supertypes. (Edit: Hope that wasn't unnecessarily complex to make my point clear. If so: sorry, pal)


Midrange is the other side of this coin: not really aggressive but also not really controllish.
DeathBlade is a midrange deck, and so are most Patriot lists, the new Grixis thing and stuff like Maverick.
Midrange relies more on high impact cards (best example is Batterskull, but also Young Pyro and Knight of the Reliquary).

"midrange" as a subtype exists within the "aggro-control" supertype and spreads from Blade-variants to TheRock to NicFit just to name a few. They drop the eaely game focus for more powerful threats and control elements to trump opposing ones if the game goes longer. Do not confuse Patriot (UWR Delver) with UWR Blade as the later runs TNN instead of Delver and uses a different, less tempo-orientated counter- & removal-layout and is also lacking Wastelands at times. They overlap a lot, but one is "tempo" and the other is a "midrange" deck at heart, like 12-Post is a "control" supertype despite running S&T + Emrakul. Maverick and Grixis are indeed "midrange" subtypes.

It's important to note that most people are fine with blue and non-blue "midrange" decks, but the idea of non-blue "tempo" or "aggro-control" still has not made circles.


But anyway, more important is the ability to define what a deck aims to do, and how we should respond.
Midrange tends to be a good matchup for TES (high impact cards take time to set up, which we don't grant them).
Tempo strategies are harder, because they typically work with a faster clock and faster disruption.

Here I agree and we come to the problem I'm discussing with Fortune: Is it expedient to fight hate (which can and will slip) ON THE BATTLEFIELD with HAND CONTROL elements?

[Asthereal]

It seems we have learned very different definitions. Probably because we have read different articles about this. Let's just drop the Aggro Control thingy and stick to Midrange and Tempo as definitions, since in this way at least we know what the other guy is talking about. :tongue:
You are right about non-blue Tempo though. Stompy style decks are often more Tempo oriented than Canadian Thresh even. In a Stompy deck, you have to disrupt, and you have to be agressive, or else you just lose to the inevitablity and consistency of the other decks out there.

I would oppose to calling Death&taxes and Maverick tempo decks though. I feel they are more midrange, especially because they are not very agressive. Turn one MoR or mana dude is not agressive at all. Additionally, their disruption is slow paced (turn 2 earliest). But anyway, they both do try to disrupt a lot, and giving them time to drop two hate bears seems bad, just like it seems bad to allow a slow Team America hand to draw and cast multiple Hymns.


... we come to the problem I'm discussing with Fortune: Is it expedient to fight hate (which can and will slip) ON THE BATTLEFIELD with HAND CONTROL elements?
We usually do both. We keep discard that can hit a permanent, and we side in removal to get rid of those that slip through. FinalFortune knows this just as well as we do. The question is where to put emphasis on. Let's face it: discarding stuff is better than having to remove it. Once a permanent hits, it hampers us, or dramatically improves the opponent's chances: Omni allows them to win on the spot, Thalia/Thorn hamper our cantripping. There are exceptions of course, but the general rule stands. But inevitably stuff will slip through, so removal is mandatory, at least to some extent. What is best is very much dependent on the situation. On the play turn one I'd like to go Probe>Therapy and get rid of dangerous stuff. On the draw with a mediocre hand a Thalia will probably require me to find a Chain wile casting cantrips for 2 mana each, which sucks, but isn't impossible.

[KaiSchafroth]

It's as over the top as south american football commentators

I just loved the dramatic camera cut to the BS at 01:30

[Lemnear]

It seems we have learned very different definitions. Probably because we have read different articles about this. Let's just drop the Aggro Control thingy and stick to Midrange and Tempo as definitions, since in this way at least we know what the other guy is talking about. :tongue:

During my time there was only the SchoolsOfMagic.txt and the Scrye Magazine available lol


You are right about non-blue Tempo though. Stompy style decks are often more Tempo oriented than Canadian Thresh even. In a Stompy deck, you have to disrupt, and you have to be agressive, or else you just lose to the inevitablity and consistency of the other decks out there.

I agree. "Stompy" these days is a "tempo" concept even then the roots of the deck were different ones.


I would oppose to calling Death&taxes and Maverick tempo decks though.

Didn't call Maverick Tempo.


I feel they are more midrange, especially because they are not very agressive. Turn one MoR or mana dude is not agressive at all. Additionally, their disruption is slow paced (turn 2 earliest). But anyway, they both do try to disrupt a lot, and giving them time to drop two hate bears seems bad, just like it seems bad to allow a slow Team America hand to draw and cast multiple Hymns.

D&T stalls the opponents gameplan to get ahead itself, which is a tempo concept. If it was a midrange concept, we would see real gameenders and powerful threats, but the deck is really struggling against those. If you are fancy, you can call Maverick the midrange-variant of D&T like UWR blade is the midrange-variant of Patriot Delver. A lot of shared stuff, but with a different focus towards turn 4+


We usually do both. We keep discard that can hit a permanent, and we side in removal to get rid of those that slip through.

Exactly.


FinalFortune knows this just as well as we do. The question is where to put emphasis on. Let's face it: discarding stuff is better than having to remove it.

Sure he does. I'm only in the fence about him being ok with scooping to stuff that slips through in addition to make the SB less flexible in the process. That's the core of my problem with the idea.


Once a permanent hits, it hampers us, or dramatically improves the opponent's chances: Omni allows them to win on the spot, Thalia/Thorn hamper our cantripping. There are exceptions of course, but the general rule stands.

But we are not talking about CoV vs. Omni, but of Xantid in this matchup and to an extend about IoK being unable to discard FoW, DTT, Omniscience or Emrakul and all what the opponent needs is finding a S&T with his cantrips as you can only hit one half of the combo and can't clear the way for your combo either. I don't see a reason to pick on Xantid for being bad post-Omniscience in the face of all the limitations IoK comes with which can also barely disrupt the combo either, but is totally pointless to support your own combo here.

There is no question that Thorn, Canonist and Thalia are annoying as hell. Same is true for Eidolon/Pillar from Burn. Not being prepared for your opponent to topdeck an 8-outer or cantrip into FoWs/Canonists/Meddling Mages/etc. (see: Blade decks) is lose. How depressing is casting IoK, seeing FoW against Miracles and being doomed to watch your opponent having the time to find a Counterbalance while Xantid dkes not deal with FoW but also disables SDT from interacting with you


But inevitably stuff will slip through, so removal is mandatory, at least to some extent. What is best is very much dependent on the situation. On the play turn one I'd like to go Probe>Therapy and get rid of dangerous stuff. On the draw with a mediocre hand a Thalia will probably require me to find a Chain wile casting cantrips for 2 mana each, which sucks, but isn't impossible.

Cantripping into CoV is a lot better than casting your cantrips and see the IoKs and Thoughtseize, no? CoV is like a condom: Better have one, even if you don't need it, than needing one, but having none with you.

[Asthereal]

D&T stalls the opponents gameplan to get ahead itself, which is a tempo concept. If it was a midrange concept, we would see real gameenders and powerful threats, but the deck is really struggling against those. If you are fancy, you can call Maverick the midrange-variant of D&T like UWR blade is the midrange-variant of Patriot Delver. A lot of shared stuff, but with a different focus towards turn 4+.
SFM into Batterskull is a very midrangy thing to do. Other than that we might indeed call Mav a midrangy version of D&T. I played a lot of Maverick in the past, and it's just sooo slow. And D&T is actually even slower usually. That's why I generally even rank D&T as a more or less control deck.


But we are not talking about CoV vs. Omni, but of Xantid in this matchup and to an extend about IoK being unable to discard FoW, DTT, Omniscience or Emrakul and all what the opponent needs is finding a S&T with his cantrips as you can only hit one half of the combo and can't clear the way for your combo either. I don't see a reason to pick on Xantid for being bad post-Omniscience in the face of all the limitations IoK comes with which can also barely disrupt the combo either, but is totally pointless to support your own combo here.

There is no question that Thorn, Canonist and Thalia are annoying as hell. Same is true for Eidolon/Pillar from Burn. Not being prepared for your opponent to topdeck an 8-outer or cantrip into FoWs/Canonists/Meddling Mages/etc. (see: Blade decks) is lose. How depressing is casting IoK, seeing FoW against Miracles and being doomed to watch your opponent having the time to find a Counterbalance while Xantid dkes not deal with FoW but also disables SDT from interacting with you.
I won't argue against you there. IoK is just strictly worse than Thoughtseize/Duress/Therapy, whichever you don't already run four of. Xantid shines against Omni, and while I don't necessarily like it much against Miracles usually, it does have its merits in stopping them from hiding crap on top of their deck and drawing it with Top when needed, so I'll probably side it in anyway.

IoK can actually suck even against a deck where it should be good. Just think about it. Against Burn it should be awesome. Costs no life, grabs Eidolon or REB/Pyroblast if needed, or just the most damaging burn spell. You cast your IoK. He has Mindbreak Trap. Oh...


CoV is like a condom: Better have one, even if you don't need it, than needing one, but having none with you.
:laugh: Nice one!

[Pelikanudo]

You can Decay an Omniscience and S&T? Xantid removes Meddling Mages? ;)

Well, I believe that Xantid is far superior vs S&T than Pyroblast and A.D. can destroy M.M and is far superior than Pyro vs Miracles.

I'm still waiting for that Uncounterable Pyro!



@Pelikanudo

I don't think there's anything really wrong with the older lists, but frankly I play against too much RUG/BUG to give up my MD Fetches and Basic and I really prefer the maximum fetchland count in order to get those Brainstorms and Ponders digging as far as possible into the deck. Other than Counterbalance insurance, I think removal/bounce is a waste of time and I'd rather sit back on Swamp and Discard. I can either Burning Wish for an answer when I have to, or I can scoop if the hate does resolve and take the initiative in the next game in order to be able to discard over two turns before they can resolve a hate bear, Null Rod etc.

For me, everything revolves around Swamp, and to a lesser extent Threshold now that I've been boarding out 2xChrome Mox for 2xCabal Ritual.


in my experience and specifically vs RUG with Stifles , I dont think it' s worse to have gemstone instead of Fetches:
- they play Stifle so you are vulnerable to them more often than not
- Wastelands ruin your day, but Gemstone save that day as it is more polivalent as Unique Mana Producer in play.
- Also once you have fetched a second time for a land you have less chances to find another land.
- I will be happy if they spend a daze just to decrease my gemstone counters... - I still have 2!

I usually would sit back on Swamp when playing TNT and 15 lands... but vs RUG for me this is just luxurios playing TES...
Sure nobody agree on this...

Related to null rod:
I've seen this card in BUG builds - when you play vs this archetype you play an attrition game - hymns, and counters usually doesnt make you win on first turns... this happens on 2nd and 3rd games - 1st games I just win easily - thats why I'll side maybe a couple of A.D. I remember tha last match up I lost and was specifically because of Null Rod, for that scenario I had: ton of mana and 1 business.
Sure nobody agree on this...

[Lemnear]

SFM into Batterskull is a very midrangy thing to do. Other than that we might indeed call Mav a midrangy version of D&T. I played a lot of Maverick in the past, and it's just sooo slow. And D&T is actually even slower usually. That's why I generally even rank D&T as a more or less control deck.

I think we should relate the "speed" of D&T directly to the mana it's opponent has available to work with. It doesn't necessarily matter if the deck takes 6 or 7 turns to kill if its opponent never has more than 1 mana available and can't basically play anything regardless which is tempo-territory ;)


IoK can actually suck even against a deck where it should be good. Just think about it. Against Burn it should be awesome. Costs no life, grabs Eidolon or REB/Pyroblast if needed, or just the most damaging burn spell. You cast your IoK. He has Mindbreak Trap. Oh...

Hahahaha ... if you would play Burn in Berlin you would likely have Pillars and MBT in your SB X]


Well, I believe that Xantid is far superior vs S&T than Pyroblast and A.D. can destroy M.M and is far superior than Pyro vs Miracles.

We're not talking about cutting Decays, but about options of getting rid of MM in decks running Wasteland. Xantid is bad against S&T->Omniscience while Blast can counter the S&T.


I'm still waiting for that Uncounterable Pyro!

Can't argue with that


in my experience and specifically vs RUG with Stifles , I dont think it' s worse to have gemstone instead of Fetches:
- they play Stifle so you are vulnerable to them more often than not
- Wastelands ruin your day, but Gemstone save that day as it is more polivalent as Unique Mana Producer in play.
- Also once you have fetched a second time for a land you have less chances to find another land.
- I will be happy if they spend a daze just to decrease my gemstone counters... - I still have 2!

Gemstone as topic again? Making points based on a matchup with 3% metagame representation? Still don't adress the matter that your opponent can watch your Gemstones run out of counters while you try to stabilize and gather the required 2-3 lands you need anyways to get around Daze/Wasteland/Pierce?

[LDX]

Things went better. Way better, but not good enough for me. Yet.

I ended the event 4-0.

The EPIC STORM

vs Death & Taxes: 2-1
vs Manaless Dredge: 2-0
vs The Gate: 2-1
vs Affinity: 2-1

I won't bother going in details with all matchups, but I need some clarifications on a few things.

Death & Taxes: 2-1

G1: I'm on the draw. My hand is the following:

Burning Wish
Burning Wish
Chrome Mox
Rite of Flames
Swamp
Lotus Petal
Gitaxian Probe

He plays turn 1, put a Mother. My turn, I draw Rite of Flames. Probe (see no hard threat, finds Probe) > Probe (finds Fetch) > Swamp > Petal > Chrome Mox (Imprint BW) > RoF > BW for Empty, 16 Goblins. He scoops.

Sideboard: -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Pyroclasm

G2: I'm on the draw: My hand is the following

Underground Sea
Brainstorm
Burning Wish
Swamp
Dark Ritual
Rite of Flames
Chain of Vapor

I keep, as I'm pretty confident in getting a mana artifact soon, or at least via Brainstorm. I'm also glad to already have a Chain of Vapor in hand. So he plays first: Chalice for 0, Aether Vial. I'm like, ok? My turn. I draw Cabal Therapy, I dare a blind Cabal before Thalia hits, naming Thalia. I see no Thalia, but no threats. I pass the turn. He draws... Chalice of the Void.

By his turn 2 (so I played 1 turn, yes), he has Chalice @0 and Chalice @1.

Needless to say I lost the game. Even if I tried to bounce is Chalice at 0 before losing my CoV possiblity, hell, he would have played it again.

G3 was a natural Empty for 8 Goblins on turn 1 while on the play. I had the Brainstorm backup in case of anything, but he couldn't deal with it.

I don't know how to feel about this. The loss on game 2 was shocking. As I was told, I didn't board Abrupt Decays in, but else than that, what else could have saved me? Better luck? I mean, the worst case scenario just happened. I'm sorry to insist, but how bad would boarding 3 AD just for the games we're playing on the draw? I value your wisdom, TES players, but this experience left too much pain to just be put aside. The guy is tired to lose to me tho, I expect 3 Chalice of the Void maindeck next week. He was dead serious. I'm afraid.


Manaless Dredge: 2-0

G1 Manaless HAD one hell of a problem to race T1 Goblins. HAD! Just saying

On a more serious note, I had one question, one critical missplay I made, but that didn't cost the game yet because of a lucky Tutor draw.

Sideboard: -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, +3 Xantid

I had a hand that looked like this, after a mulligan:

Xantid Swarm
Empty the Warrens
Bayou
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Rite of Flame

I was on the play. I went for Empty the Warrens right away, but my Rite of Flame got countered by a FoW. First, I know my sequence was wrong as I went Land > Petal > Petal > Flame instead of Land > Petal > Flame. However, woud it have been better to wait a turn, play Bayou > Xantid, and wait? I needed the Storm counter to cast Empty from my hand, but I didn't want the Petals to be discarded either, so I just went ham T1 instead of waiting T2. Was I too cocky? After all, Manaless can't even play Cabal Therapy before turns T2 anyway, and as I was on the play...

Also, the lack of Duress didn't hurt me at all (to my surprise, I admit), but I think I had quite a bit of luck on that round.


The Gate: 2-1

G1 was a walk with Ad Nauseam.

Sideboard: None

G2 was epic as hell, he won that one, but not after a 15 minutes Ad Nauseam started at 7 life. I was one Storm counter short to kill him and his 28 life points, as he had a Jitte online on a Phyrexian Revoker that named Lotus Petal. Yes, I drew Petal, and would have won with them.

G3 was too many Goblins, too soon, after he kept a very slow hand (Nighthawk + Bitterblossom + Jitte, no discard)

I didn't feel like Abrupt Decay would have helped here, even against Jitte, but I'm thinking toward Chain of Vapor vs his Phyrexian Revoker, removing 2 Ponder. I would have won easily game two if he didn't have a Revoker online, and by the time I found enough mana for BW + Removal, he had enough counters on Jitte to save it. Void Snare wouldn't have been enough, I needed to remove before my turn. Thoughts?


Affinity: 2-1

By far the most intense match. While G2 vs The Gate was intense, this G1 was something out of this world. She CRUSHED me, yet she didn't know what a Storm deck was.

I was on the play. I had a Gitaxian Probe and a Cabal Therapy to most likely win by turn 3 from hard casting Ad Nauseam, which I have in hand with some cantrips. I go for my Probe + Cabal turn 1, I see her perfect hand. I however name Mox Opal, which she has x2. I know she doesn't have enough mana. I pass, she draws a third Mox Opal in 8 cards.

Turn 1 Cranial Plating equipped. My can trips fizzle, I lose, hard. Can't wait to see the video footage on this one.

G2, I'm so afraid of her deck that I don't know where to start.

Sideboard: -2 Duress, -2 Ponder, +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Grapeshot

I keep a hand with Grapeshot, some cantrips, and a LED. I play Land Go, she has 3 creatures at the end of her first turn. I manage to kill 2 of them and leave her with an Ornithopter and an empty hand. I soon go for an Ad Nauseam, but the Ad Nauseam fizzles, despite my 4 lands in play. I keep a hand to win next turn via Past in Flames, but at one condition: she needs to NOT draw a Cranial Plating, or I lose at her turn. I'm at 3 life. She doesn't draw the Cranial Plating, I win as expected on my turn via PiF.

After that win, I calm down, and remove the 2 Abrupt Decay to bring back the Ponder, as the -2 life from last game scared me too. G3 was a proper Ad Nauseam turn 2. Yet, I'm quite afraid of next thursday: if she manages to learn what she's playing and what TES is, she will most likely have her chances. I'm now scared of Affinity.



All in all, I'm very glad of th help I received, it surely relieved me tonight. I was still disappointed a few times as I knew my plays were getting sketchy and I didn't feel as confident as I should have been, but I hope to see this mistakes back on video footage and come back with those. I think the best compliment I received tonight was: ''I know you have the same deck, but you play it totally differently, I don't know what to expect anymore.'' -Alexe, the Manaless player. She's 8-3 in our standing, at first place, I'm now 7-4, right behind her.

The league is far from over, and I expect a lot of meta calls next week: the Chalice main deck for D&T, maybe Loam Pox return, a switch from Manaless Dredge to Burn or Elves!. I'll try to come back after I review the video footage, but for now, I'll let you guys do your theorycrafting in peace.

Thanks a lot for your help, I hope we aren't stopping there :)

[Plague Sliver]

Death and Taxes with maindeck Chalice...that's what we've come to in 2015, ladies and gentlemen :tongue:

[Pelikanudo]

We're not talking about cutting Decays, but about options of getting rid of MM in decks running Wasteland. Xantid is bad against S&T->Omniscience while Blast can counter the S&T.


I prefer to play 4 just Decays instead of Splits of Decays/Xantids/Pyros. I will not cut my 4th decay for a pyro. I dont think Xantid is bad vs Omnitell if you play it in your first turn - I can conceive this card as P.Nelde - you maybe need to play more than 2 copies to be effecive vs this archetype. it also can serve to flahbak therapy and apart, expecting to use pyro to just counter S&T it's not the way a card in my side acts vs this archetype.

Related to M.M plus Wasteland in a single deck - well the unique decks I faced with this setting are:
a) Patriot - I lately don't see this archetype in my meta
b) BUG (Control Not Tempo - Tempo doesn't play M.M) - Wich also plays Null Rod - thefore A.D. is just more polivalent - still didn't encounter any mana issue when played vs this archetype - my fault was in deed to not contemplate Null Rod AND M.M. only and lost because of this.



Gemstone as topic again? Making points based on a matchup with 3% metagame representation? Still don't adress the matter that your opponent can watch your Gemstones run out of counters while you try to stabilize and gather the required 2-3 lands you need anyways to get around Daze/Wasteland/Pierce?

This was a specific point of view related to the comment Final Fortune wrote. That's all. I don't know if F.F. meta is 3% RUG. and neither wanted to discuss this topic with you again.


EDIT: @LDX What a fantastic meta to play TES with!!! Envy.

[Lemnear]

Things went better. Way better, but not good enough for me. Yet.

I ended the event 4-0.

This sounds as a leap compared to the reports a few weeks back. Glad to see


The EPIC STORM

vs Death & Taxes: 2-1
vs Manaless Dredge: 2-0
vs The Gate: 2-1
vs Affinity: 2-1

I won't bother going in details with all matchups, but I need some clarifications on a few things.

Death & Taxes: 2-1

G1: I'm on the draw. My hand is the following:

Burning Wish
Burning Wish
Chrome Mox
Rite of Flames
Swamp
Lotus Petal
Gitaxian Probe

He plays turn 1, put a Mother. My turn, I draw Rite of Flames. Probe (see no hard threat, finds Probe) > Probe (finds Fetch) > Swamp > Petal > Chrome Mox (Imprint BW) > RoF > BW for Empty, 16 Goblins. He scoops.

Sideboard: -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Pyroblast

I don't get the Pyroblast here :/


G2: I'm on the draw: My hand is the following

Underground Sea
Brainstorm
Burning Wish
Swamp
Dark Ritual
Rite of Flames
Chain of Vapor

I keep, as I'm pretty confident in getting a mana artifact soon, or at least via Brainstorm. I'm also glad to already have a Chain of Vapor in hand. So he plays first: Chalice for 0, Aether Vial. I'm like, ok? My turn. I draw Cabal Therapy, I dare a blind Cabal before Thalia hits, naming Thalia. I see no Thalia, but no threats. I pass the turn. He draws... Chalice of the Void.

By his turn 2 (so I played 1 turn, yes), he has Chalice @0 and Chalice @1.

Needless to say I lost the game. Even if I tried to bounce is Chalice at 0 before losing my CoV possiblity, hell, he would have played it again.

G3 was a natural Empty for 8 Goblins on turn 1 while on the play. I had the Brainstorm backup in case of anything, but he couldn't deal with it.

I don't know how to feel about this. The loss on game 2 was shocking. As I was told, I didn't board Abrupt Decays in, but else than that, what else could have saved me? Better luck? I mean, the worst case scenario just happened. I'm sorry to insist, but how bad would boarding 3 AD just for the games we're playing on the draw? I value your wisdom, TES players, but this experience left too much pain to just be put aside. The guy is tired to lose to me tho, I expect 3 Chalice of the Void maindeck next week. He was dead serious. I'm afraid.

First of all, there as nothing involved I would call a mistake. Chalice @ 0 & 1 is rough so you dom't beed to feel bad about that. Looking at this hand, there was only 1 greedy alternatice to consider to "Swamp->Therapy->Thalia" and that was gambling against Wasteland by playing the Underground Sea and pass. This way you have had the option to cast CoV eot or respond to something with Brainstorm. So, if your opponent does not follow up with another restricting play, its pretty likely, that you combo turn 2 after an eot Brainstorm. Wouldn't have saved you here, but it's an option to have in mind. Don't board Decays


Manaless Dredge: 2-0

G1 Manaless HAD one hell of a problem to race T1 Goblins. HAD! Just saying

lawl


On a more serious note, I had one question, one critical missplay I made, but that didn't cost the game yet because of a lucky Tutor draw.

Sideboard: -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, +3 Xantid

I had a hand that looked like this, after a mulligan:

Xantid Swarm
Empty the Warrens
Bayou
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Rite of Flame

I was on the play. I went for Empty the Warrens right away, but my Rite of Flame got countered by a FoW. First, I know my sequence was wrong as I went Land > Petal > Petal > Flame instead of Land > Petal > Flame. However, woud it have been better to wait a turn, play Bayou > Xantid, and wait? I needed the Storm counter to cast Empty from my hand, but I didn't want the Petals to be discarded either, so I just went ham T1 instead of waiting T2. Was I too cocky? After all, Manaless can't even play Cabal Therapy before turns T2 anyway, and as I was on the play...

Tricky. The problem here is that I'm not overwhelmed by 8 goblins only in addition to you knowing he has counters. I would have played Xantid off the Bayou because you double timewalk your opponent if Xantid gets FoWed for whatever reason and if not you have another drawstep to find cards that fuel your stormcount and would result into a two-turnclock rather than the three-turn-clock you could have created by the turn 1 combo. Verdict: You took a risk without the option to kill your opponent any faster.


Also, the lack of Duress didn't hurt me at all (to my surprise, I admit), but I think I had quite a bit of luck on that round.

Should not surprise you.


The Gate: 2-1

G1 was a walk with Ad Nauseam.

Sideboard: None

G2 was epic as hell, he won that one, but not after a 15 minutes Ad Nauseam started at 7 life. I was one Storm counter short to kill him and his 28 life points, as he had a Jitte online on a Phyrexian Revoker that named Lotus Petal. Yes, I drew Petal, and would have won with them.

G3 was too many Goblins, too soon, after he kept a very slow hand (Nighthawk + Bitterblossom + Jitte, no discard)

Game 2 you can drain him to 2 and just PIF the turn after for the win? We talked about that game 3 scenario. I'm glad you saw why that Jitte nonsense should be nothing of your business.


I didn't feel like Abrupt Decay would have helped here, even against Jitte, but I'm thinking toward Chain of Vapor vs his Phyrexian Revoker, removing 2 Ponder. I would have won easily game two if he didn't have a Revoker online, and by the time I found enough mana for BW + Removal, he had enough counters on Jitte to save it. Void Snare wouldn't have been enough, I needed to remove before my turn. Thoughts?

Affinity: 2-1

By far the most intense match. While G2 vs The Gate was intense, this G1 was something out of this world. She CRUSHED me, yet she didn't know what a Storm deck was.

I was on the play. I had a Gitaxian Probe and a Cabal Therapy to most likely win by turn 3 from hard casting Ad Nauseam, which I have in hand with some cantrips. I go for my Probe + Cabal turn 1, I see her perfect hand. I however name Mox Opal, which she has x2. I know she doesn't have enough mana. I pass, she draws a third Mox Opal in 8 cards.

Turn 1 Cranial Plating equipped. My can trips fizzle, I lose, hard. Can't wait to see the video footage on this one.

G2, I'm so afraid of her deck that I don't know where to start.

Sideboard: -2 Duress, -2 Ponder, +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Grapeshot

I keep a hand with Grapeshot, some cantrips, and a LED. I play Land Go, she has 3 creatures at the end of her first turn. I manage to kill 2 of them and leave her with an Ornithopter and an empty hand. I soon go for an Ad Nauseam, but the Ad Nauseam fizzles, despite my 4 lands in play. I keep a hand to win next turn via Past in Flames, but at one condition: she needs to NOT draw a Cranial Plating, or I lose at her turn. I'm at 3 life. She doesn't draw the Cranial Plating, I win as expected on my turn via PiF.

After that win, I calm down, and remove the 2 Abrupt Decay to bring back the Ponder, as the -2 life from last game scared me too. G3 was a proper Ad Nauseam turn 2. Yet, I'm quite afraid of next thursday: if she manages to learn what she's playing and what TES is, she will most likely have her chances. I'm now scared of Affinity.

That's what I way talking about in terms of Decay may being too slow. Don't stress yourself further. Matchup is fine


All in all, I'm very glad of th help I received, it surely relieved me tonight. I was still disappointed a few times as I knew my plays were getting sketchy and I didn't feel as confident as I should have been, but I hope to see this mistakes back on video footage and come back with those. I think the best compliment I received tonight was: ''I know you have the same deck, but you play it totally differently, I don't know what to expect anymore.'' -Alexe, the Manaless player. She's 8-3 in our standing, at first place, I'm now 7-4, right behind her.

Well, that does indeed sound pretty nice.


The league is far from over, and I expect a lot of meta calls next week: the Chalice main deck for D&T, maybe Loam Pox return, a switch from Manaless Dredge to Burn or Elves!. I'll try to come back after I review the video footage, but for now, I'll let you guys do your theorycrafting in peace.

Thanks a lot for your help, I hope we aren't stopping there :)

Greetings to your group and apologies that I do some coaching lol

[Jay_Gatz]

I don't get the Pyroblast here :/


Probably meant pyroclasm, not pyroblast

[Lemnear]

Probably meant pyroclasm, not pyroblast

Makes sense. Pardon my brainfart of not thinking of this. Too many list floating around in my head at times, duh!

[Bryant Cook]

I would side in Decay versus Affinity. I've found that a lot of them play some number of the following: Revokers/Chalice/Cannonist/Thalia.

-2 Duress
-3 Therapy
+3 Decay
+1 Chain of Vapor
+1 Void Snare

If you wanted to keep in 2 Therapy you could take out ETW instead.

[sawatarix]

Here it is: My own Legacy Storm Deck Tech & Interview !!

Check it out, it's in japanese.
I might also translate it the next days if there is a high demand.

- Kai

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/sp/category/detail/1185

[KaiSchafroth]

Here it is: My own Legacy Storm Deck Tech & Interview !!

Check it out, it's in japanese.
I might also translate it the next days if there is a high demand.

- Kai

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/sp/category/detail/1185


Started trying to read through but the Google translate (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hareruyamtg.com%2Farticle%2Fsp%2Fcategory%2Fdetail%2F1185&edit-text=)was super rough lol
Either way enjoyed watching the vid you posted earlier and the match report on WotC

[Wordslinger]

i just picked this deck up a couple weeks ago. it seems whenever i dont play it like a belcher deck that just happens to have disruption, i lose. am i doing something wrong?

i feel like a trained monkey that occasionally has to figure out how to figure out how to build a particle accelerator and i'm starting to get whiplash.

[Lemnear]

i just picked this deck up a couple weeks ago. it seems whenever i dont play it like a belcher deck that just happens to have disruption, i lose. am i doing something wrong?

Most likely you do.

Throwing a hand in your opponents face playing the Belcher-Mode is no art. The problems usually occur if pilots can't figure out how to play around hate or how to sculpt a hand (for certain situations) with cantrips. I can't give a detailed analysis of potential misconceptions based on your information given, so lets make a little basic test here (all Facebook group members already know these):

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/18614_819427221486272_8254813712133424263_n_zpsfi0ngdof.jpg

A1) Do you keep this hand?
A2) How does your first two turns look like (you're on the play)?

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/11108676_819429378152723_108892286521646968_n_zpsmu8h9jwg.jpg

B1) You played Brainstorm off the Lotus Petal. Which two cards do put back (you're on the play)?
B2) How do you proceed from here?

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/11108283_819428958152765_8130169247861460305_n_zps3qpyp5cw.jpg

C1) You fetched Volcanic with a Misty Rainforest and cast Ponder seeing the top three cards. What do you do here (you're on the play)?
C2) How does your second turn look like?


P.S. All non-Facebook-Group members are invited to participate. Solutions and grades are granted later lol

[ElDorte]

And btw if someone don't recognize the card with Ajani on them. These are Lion's Eye Diamonds. ;)

[Lemnear]

And btw if someone don't recognize the card with Ajani on them. These are Lion's Eye Diamonds. ;)

It's a one-eyed lion Planeswalker holding an diamond in his hand in each of the pictures ... shouldn't be hard to figure out. I guess the Duress', Probes and Therapies are a bit more awkward to indentify at first sight

[ElDorte]

Here you only see a part of the card so i would say it's harder to recognize a altered card than the original artwork of a card. But i would love to see the Diamonds that you own.

[Lemnear]

Here you only see a part of the card so i would say it's harder to recognize a altered card than the original artwork of a card. But i would love to see the Diamonds that you own.

You can find them pretty easily via google tbh. Otherwise: GP Lille

[UseLess]

As I have just traded the missing duals and LED's to play ANT and always have loved TES (brought me into legacy!), I'll try answering these:

A1) I would keep.
A2) T1, play fetch (misty), pass. T2, play fetch, pass. EOT opponents turn, fetch island with misty, brainstorm. This would be of course in a situation where my opponent doesn't try T1 discard (which I would respond to with brainstorm) or something else that sets of alarm bells and my draw wasn't impressive.

B1) I first put back burning wish, then lion's eye diamond.
B2) I would pay 2 life for probe to see if the coast is clear. If not, pass turn. If it is, play second probe for 2 life, play lotus petal, crack R for rite of flame, play Usea for Dark rit, play LED. Play Burning wish, keep priority, crack LED for BBB. Look up Tendrils, cast with storm 9 + tendrils.

C1) I put back first Brainstorm, Cabal therapy and then ponder. Draw ponder from ponder, say go. Reason for me to keep the three cards is that in case of multiple counters, I prefer to have the cabal + duress instead of digging faster for that unknown card. Also, if blanking on the 4th card with ponder, the hand isn't that good anymore as you can't really do anything with it until you draw either a ritual or more cantrips.
C2) Draw Cabal. Play probe for 2 life, draw Brainstorm. If I need to, play fetch for Usea (or swamp in case of wasteland deck and not comboing this turn), followed by either Duress or cabal therapy. Then cast ponder with the volcanic, looking for a ritual to go for the combo.

I just kept it brief, but a lot of the plays will depend on what you see with the probes. If facing discard or if they could counter later when you pass turn now, play the LEDs already. No facebook, so looking forward for the answers here.

[Asthereal]

I'm a tad rusty so I'll join in as well. Beware the mistakes!

A1) I would keep.
A2) T1, play fetch (misty), pass. T2, play fetch, pass. EOT opponents turn, fetch island with misty, brainstorm. This would be of course in a situation where my opponent doesn't try T1 discard (which I would respond to with brainstorm) or something else that sets of alarm bells and my draw wasn't impressive.
A1. Keep, definitely. Very nice hand.
A2. We need a Tutor to go off, and perhaps a Probe or so. No card from our hand is bad. Considering this, I'd probably go Land-go, and EOT fetch Volcanic and play Brainstorm. Of the three cards I draw, I can fetch away one next turn, and then follow up with 2nd Brainstorm, fetch away two cards and hopefully cast Probe>Therapy or just Duress afterwards. Go off turn 3 hopefully.


B1) I first put back burning wish, then lion's eye diamond.
B2) I would pay 2 life for probe to see if the coast is clear. If not, pass turn. If it is, play second probe for 2 life, play lotus petal, crack R for rite of flame, play Usea for Dark rit, play LED. Play Burning wish, keep priority, crack LED for BBB. Look up Tendrils, cast with storm 9 + tendrils.
B1. Put back Wish and then Probe on top of it.
B2. Profe for life. Coast clear? Play Sea, cast LED, Petal, Ritual, Rite, Probe-reponse-sac LED, draw Wish play Wish into tendrils for 10? Coast not clear, wait a bit and hope to draw useful stuff...


C1) I put back first Brainstorm, Cabal therapy and then ponder. Draw ponder from ponder, say go. Reason for me to keep the three cards is that in case of multiple counters, I prefer to have the cabal + duress instead of digging faster for that unknown card. Also, if blanking on the 4th card with ponder, the hand isn't that good anymore as you can't really do anything with it until you draw either a ritual or more cantrips.
C2) Draw Cabal. Play probe for 2 life, draw Brainstorm. If I need to, play fetch for Usea (or swamp in case of wasteland deck and not comboing this turn), followed by either Duress or cabal therapy. Then cast ponder with the volcanic, looking for a ritual to go for the combo.
C0. I would have been tempted to start this game with fetch Sea, cast Duress. This would allow me to decide whether to cast the LED right away or not. Thinking about it, that's probably worse than starting with fetch Volcanic, cast Ponder, since we want to be able to cast cantrips before we cast protection in a turn, and fetching Sea first would make us waste a shuffle effect, or make us unable to play a cantip before Duress.
C1. Nice hand again. I don't usually draw this well. :tongue: We need only a Ritual or LED to go off from here, so we should find one of those with the Ponder, Brainstorm and Probe we have. Additional land or Petal would be nice to play around Daze or to not lose to Wasteland. So I'd go: put back Therapy, then Brainstorm, then Ponder. Don't shuffle, but just draw the Ponder.
C2. Turn 2 depends greatly on what my opponent did. If I see a non-blue Land, I'd like to go Probe first (see what he has, draw the Therapy). Cast Ponder, then fetch away the two worst cards, get Sea and then Therapy away his most dangerous card (Thalia, Eidolon, Hymn, whatever he has). If my opponent casts a Delver from a Tundra or Volcanic, I'll probably cast Ponder, see what I get and proceed to try to play around Daze, cast all my cantrips, then cast the discard, try to bait counters and go for a natural Tendrils. If my opponent goes Tundra-Top or basic Island-Ponder, I'll go Probe (see what he has, draw Therapy). Cast Ponder, fetch away the two worst cards, get Sea and cast Duress/Therapy to try and grab his Counterbalance or whatevery dangerous stuff he has. If Ponder found me a Petal I'll be able to Duress AND Therapy. Looking good from here.

PS. Nice playmat. :smile:
PS2. Didn't join in on Facebook, so I can try right?

[Lemnear]

Of course you should join

[Lemnear]

Current MB in testing (feat 4 SB Decay):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Bayou

2 Rain of Filth
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam

[Asthereal]

It's a one-eyed lion Planeswalker holding an diamond in his hand in each of the pictures ... shouldn't be hard to figure out. I guess the Duress', Probes and Therapies are a bit more awkward to indentify at first sight
The Probes have a suspicious mana cost. :cool:
But we manage, don't worry.

I am interested to know my grade for this small test. :tongue:
I recon I should get at least a 7/10, but I shouldn't overestimate my play skills.

[Lemnear]

The Probes have a suspicious mana cost. :cool:
But we manage, don't worry.

I am interested to know my grade for this small test. :tongue:
I recon I should get at least a 7/10, but I shouldn't overestimate my play skills.

I should have kept the quiz exclusively for Wordslinger *laugh*

The given responses were all reasonable. I admit that the example 2 is intended to be kinda cunning while 1 & 3 are no clear black/white to see what people pick as their reasons. Maybe he/she will drop a line of personal thoughts on the topic or learns from the comments so far. Lets see how this goes on and maybe I drop my 0.02$ as well.

[Asthereal]

I should have kept the quiz exclusively for Wordslinger *laugh*

The given responses were all reasonable. I admit that the example 2 is intended to be kinda cunning while 1 & 3 are no clear black/white to see what people pick as their reasons. Maybe he/she will drop a line of personal thoughts on the topic or learns from the comments so far. Lets see how this goes on and maybe I drop my 0.02$ as well.
1 & 3 also depend greatly on what cards you find with the follow-up cantrips.
It's hard to tell, but to define a strategy from here on is important.
We will have to adjust the strategy according to what cards we find along the way.

[JamieW89]

Also in the FB group but don't think I saw 1 & 3 before (or I just forgot :p).

Hand-1:
Keep, lead with Misty,pass. Turn-2 fetch a volcanic (could be Island in ANT in the dark) and play a Brainstorm, then reevaluate, not unlikely to fetch a sea (possibly Swamp in ANT) and cast another cantrip or a discard spell. In the case that your opponents first turn indicates that you're in a hurry for whatever reason you could fire off a brainstorm eot, and a second main, but otherwise I really don't like this.

Hand-2:
Yeah, seen it on FB. Pewpew.

Hand-3:
I would have lead with probe to have more information for my ponder; I don't know if I need to shuffle to find more fast mana asap or if brainstorm,ponder,discard is pretty good here. Then again, that is probably because I usually play without MD empty (in ANT). As is I probably shuffle, but I shuffle Ponders a lot (as in too much) in general. Pretty close.

[Lemnear]

I also tend to shuffle a lot after T1 Ponder as I demand two good cards outta three to see and draw as a result. Keeping the top three after a T1 Ponder just because of 1 good card is imo a bad habit I've seen too often

[ElDorte]

Good morning Ladys and Gentlemen,

I have a question about some Matchups. Lately i asked on Facebook but i dont want to spam you guys notifications with my questions.

Here i saw Bryant in his Guide i just boards in Xantid Swarms against Reanimator. Here could it not be just Game Over if the Opponent just slamms Iona on Red? Don't we need CoV or even Tendrils in the Mainboard against them?

Greetings Christian

[Lemnear]

Good morning Ladys and Gentlemen,

I have a question about some Matchups. Lately i asked on Facebook but i dont want to spam you guys notifications with my questions.

Here i saw Bryant in his Guide i just boards in Xantid Swarms against Reanimator. Here could it not be just Game Over if the Opponent just slamms Iona on Red? Don't we need CoV or even Tendrils in the Mainboard against them?

Greetings Christian

Is this Christian Hammer? I have troubles linking FB accounts to the respective Source usernames and try to get better with that, sorry.

Is Iona really played? Is Reanimator even a reasonable contender these days? Honest questions as I have not seen any of these lately. If that deck is present in the tiven constellation, I'd play Surgical Extractions tbh. for broader applications and for not having to gamble on Iona rather than Griselbrand. You get the idea

[ElDorte]

Yeah i'm Christian Hammer

We have some Reanimator Players at the Tournaments here in Switzerland. And at least 2 of these Players (one in my LGS) play Iona main. I think at the Moment Reanimator is a bit off the Radar. But still a good deck with a lot of good matchups.

Surgical seems a bit loose since we have a pretty tight Sideboard. But i will give it a try.

Atm i struggle more with the Burn Players here really hating on Combo. Last League one of them boarded 10 cards in against me. (4 Pillars, 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 2 Pyroclasms against Empty)

Greetings Christian

[entreri_fans]

Current MB in testing (feat 4 SB Decay):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Bayou

2 Rain of Filth
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam

Hi, Lemnear, this list looks cool and interesting! :laugh:

Especially no more chrome moxes which create awkward opening hand / top deck sometimes. Also I am curious to know how much the missing mox will weaken the Ad Nauseam or our speed in general? But at least, I think this list has a more stable and stronger middle/late game:smile:

Have you already had any real match experience with the test list? Would like to hear your opinion about your new list.

Anyway, thanks very much for sharing an interesting list :)

[Lemnear]

Yeah i'm Christian Hammer

We have some Reanimator Players at the Tournaments here in Switzerland. And at least 2 of these Players (one in my LGS) play Iona main. I think at the Moment Reanimator is a bit off the Radar. But still a good deck with a lot of good matchups.

Surgical seems a bit loose since we have a pretty tight Sideboard. But i will give it a try.

Atm i struggle more with the Burn Players here really hating on Combo. Last League one of them boarded 10 cards in against me. (4 Pillars, 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 2 Pyroclasms against Empty)

Greetings Christian

Pillar, Eidolon and Leyline all suck against T1/2 Goblins, no? Don't let the Clasms disturb you here. You board CoV anyways against all that crap.


Hi, Lemnear, this list looks cool and interesting! :laugh:

Especially no more chrome moxes which create awkward opening hand / top deck sometimes. Also I am curious to know how much the missing mox will weaken the Ad Nauseam or our speed in general? But at least, I think this list has a more stable and stronger middle/late game:smile:

Have you already had any real match experience with the test list? Would like to hear your opinion about your new list.

Anyway, thanks very much for sharing an interesting list :)

You can flip more cards w/o EtW in the deck and ergo need less IMS overall while you run more rituals to float mana into AN as well. The 14th land and 2nd green manasource is to deal with Tempo decks and Wasteland, also enabling Decays to stay an option in the face of Wastelands. This gets me around stuff like Carpets in the SB. Returned the 3rd Duress to the MB as the switch of EtW for the SB Thoughtseize was a common one postboard against combo and with Counterbalance and S&T everywhere, it appeared reasonable to use a similar config preboard as well.

I will test this idea during one of the Trials in Lille

[Pelikanudo]

Current MB in testing (feat 4 SB Decay):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Bayou

2 Rain of Filth
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam


Just my H.O.:
I don't know if you evaluated Tinder Wall as an option, it is even a +2mana card if you play it an sacrifice it on next turn!
Nice to see 4 A.D. in your side!

Please let me know how much 2nd RoF sucks - however I see that card in a 14 lands build like yours - but not sure if will be ok with 0 basics. I undestand that you play 2 just because the statistics to draw that card - but really sucks, if you draw it the second time - that's why I suggest super Tinder Wall! Maybe playing a swamp instead the 2nd bayou is ok... but I see the 2nd to try to get the most of A.D. vs Wastelands.Deck...

[Lemnear]

Just my H.O.:
I don't know if you evaluated Tinder Wall as an option, it is even a +2mana card if you play it an sacrifice it on next turn!
Nice to see 4 A.D. in your side!

Please let me know how much 2nd RoF sucks - however I see that card in a 14 lands build like yours - but not sure if will be ok with 0 basics. I undestand that you play 2 just because the statistics to draw that card - but really sucks, if you draw it the second time - that's why I suggest super Tinder Wall! Maybe playing a swamp instead the 2nd bayou is ok... but I see the 2nd to try to get the most of A.D. vs Wastelands.Deck...

I did not evaluate Tinder Wall here because it's green and not scaling with the turns played. Even the MB Carpets do a better job, which you hated. I run 4 SB Decay for quite a while. It's necessary in Europe.

I guess it still sucks less than dawing the second Chrome Mox in a single game lol. Rain of Filth is a lategame card which is also pretty good to flip to AN turn 2 and further and as you don't want to see two in a single game the number is fine. As said the 14th land and second green source is to help out against wasteland and taxing effects, so I don't have to bother with SB carpets & Co. or have to fear that a Wasteland shuts off my Decays. Its valid to ponder about the 14th land being a Basic or Tropical at this point.

[Bryant Cook]

I did not evaluate Tinder Wall here because it's green and not scaling with the turns played. Even the MB Carpets do a better job, which you hated. I run 4 SB Decay for quite a while. It's necessary in Europe.

I guess it still sucks less than dawing the second Chrome Mox in a single game lol. Rain of Filth is a lategame card which is also pretty good to flip to AN turn 2 and further and as you don't want to see two in a single game the number is fine. As said the 14th land and second green source is to help out against wasteland and taxing effects, so I don't have to bother with SB carpets & Co. or have to fear that a Wasteland shuts off my Decays. Its valid to ponder about the 14th land being a Basic or Tropical at this point.

You mean where Chrome Mox still has applications and Rain doesn't?

Your list has essentially made TES a slower, most likely worse version of ANT. You've slowed the deck down considerably while adding a color (in comparison to ANT). I actually just fail to see why anyone would pilot TES if its essentially the same deck with worse mana. Your list is almost a one-trick pony, if you were going to completely cut Chrome Mox and slow down the deck, you could've added Cabal Rituals to improve the late game PIF.

[alaska]

Been away from TES for months now, but does the newly spoiled Dark Petition have a place in our sideboard?

[Asthereal]

New Tutor coming up in Magic Origins:

Dark Petition, sorcery, cost: 3BB
Search for a card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
Spell mastery: if there are two or more instants and/or sorceries in your graveyard, add BBB to your mana pool.

Excellent Wish target. Seems like we never ever have to side out Infernal, which is nice. :cool:

[Pelikanudo]

New Tutor coming up in Magic Origins:

Dark Petition, sorcery, cost: 3BB
Search for a card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
Spell mastery: if there are two or more instants and/or sorceries in your graveyard, add BBB to your mana pool.

Excellent Wish target. Seems like we never ever have to side out Infernal, which is nice. :cool:



Yes! Yes! and Yes!

I couldn't believe that, but this is esentially an I.T. for Side!!! with dependency on G.Y. I believe - I can now get rid of my so loved Dimionihing returns! - Holy Shit. on the other hand I have to get rid of my Grim Tutors ASAP... as I only got them for my TNT build!!!

Great ! I'm so happy...

[Bryant Cook]

My thoughts on today's spoils: http://www.theepicstorm.com/magic-origins-combo-spoiler/

[sawatarix]

My thoughts on today's spoils: http://www.theepicstorm.com/magic-origins-combo-spoiler/

Excellent work Bryant, we share the exact same opinion about both new cards in Magic Origins.

Lemnears list is only a inferior version of ANT with no benefit.With 14 Lands you can't get full advantage and boost of Rain of Filth. Cabal Ritual is the way to go if you want to improve your lategame. But still, this deck wants to power out goblins or Ad Nauseam as soon as possible.
Another thing about Rain if Filth: I use Rain in Ant to get fast ******** for Cabal Rituals. In Tes it is strictly a really bad Dark Ritual.It does nothing on Turn1.

[CutthroatCasual]

Thank god. I'm tired of reading posts by uneducated Magic players (see: those who have no experience with eternal formats) talk about how busted Day's Undoing is going to be busted.

[alaska]

Thank god. I'm tired of reading posts by uneducated Magic players (see: those who have no experience with eternal formats) talk about how busted Day's Undoing is going to be busted.

Busted? No,not sure who's saying that, but it does present an interesting brewing challenge.

[Kanti]

Let's also give it some time, as in give some people some time to try and bust it. That is how things become busted, barring they are reprints of Recall, or named Treasure Cruise.

[Lemnear]

Excellent work Bryant, we share the exact same opinion about both new cards in Magic Origins.

Lemnears list is only a inferior version of ANT with no benefit.With 14 Lands you can't get full advantage and boost of Rain of Filth. Cabal Ritual is the way to go if you want to improve your lategame. But still, this deck wants to power out goblins or Ad Nauseam as soon as possible.
Another thing about Rain if Filth: I use Rain in Ant to get fast ******** for Cabal Rituals. In Tes it is strictly a really bad Dark Ritual.It does nothing on Turn1.

Oh, being able to work with AN safely while going down to two life, giving shit about yard-hate and still being able to go for the long run isn't something with at least potential benefit? Cabal Ritual + Past In Flames + Dark Petition do nothing against yard-hate. Doesn't stop you from running these either, no? Is it foolish to expect a rise of yard-hate with Storm on everyones Radar and DTT in 55%+ of decks? Pointing at the value of Rain for turn 1 is totally off as it's not meant for that scenario otherwise we can also point at Chrome Moxen drawn turn 3+.

EtW is totally unimpressive atm and there is absolutely no reason to streamline the deck for the Belcher-Mode and burst-EtW if 75%+ of your matchups are against (taxing) counters anyways slowing you down or the opposing deck just kills you within the two/three turns the Goblins would require to kill regardless. Goblins are not good enough atm to sacrifice midgame-potential via Cabal Rituals or Rains for Chrome Moxen to support the Token ambush.

Why do you think 14 lands isn't enough to work with Rain?

[Dark Ritual]

Oh, being able to work with AN safely while going down to two life, giving shit about yard-hate and still being able to go for the long run isn't something with at least potential benefit? Cabal Ritual + Past In Flames + Dark Petition do nothing against yard-hate. Doesn't stop you from running these either, no? Is it foolish to expect a rise of yard-hate with Storm on everyones Radar and DTT in 55%+ of decks? Pointing at the value of Rain for turn 1 is totally off as it's not meant for that scenario otherwise we can also point at Chrome Moxen drawn turn 3+.

EtW is totally unimpressive atm and there is absolutely no reason to streamline the deck for the Belcher-Mode and burst-EtW if 75%+ of your matchups are against (taxing) counters anyways slowing you down or the opposing deck just kills you within the two/three turns the Goblins would require to kill regardless. Goblins are not good enough atm to sacrifice midgame-potential via Cabal Rituals or Rains for Chrome Moxen to support the Token ambush.

Why do you think 14 lands isn't enough to work with Rain?

With 14 lands it's likely to be worse than cabal ritual and even chrome mox as for rain of filth to be at all good you want 3+ lands in play and 14 lands doesn't consistently accomplish that even with cantrips. Draw 2 rain of filth is a special kind of bad of course.

I agree with what Bryant said in his article about petition and new twister. One nitpick I have is that petition isn't bad against soft countermagic. It costs 2 mana same as infernal tutor as you can't storm off on BBB in legacy short of cruel bargain/infernal contract and I don't think anyone will be playing those in TES or ANT.

I think the new twister is abysmal. If you're going to pass after a 3 mana spell resolves on your end it might as well be doomsday and passing after resolving doomsday already feels bad enough as the opponent is likely to tear your shit up in a million different ways if you give them a fresh 7. The worst case scenario for the card isn't that unrealistic either in that your opponent draws quite well and you draw dog shit/likely lose on the spot. The worst case scenario that is also very realistic is the opponent putting a show and tell, sneak attack + activation, counterbalance, sensei's top, or something on the stack. I've already seen people advocate for a ban on the card and I'm just going to watch them do nothing with it as it's very fair. The only case I can think of where it could be good is if you get your hand torn to shreds and you resolve it to negate the discard or you are able to resolve it with a lot of artifact mana onboard on turn 1 or something to that effect/actually profit quite well off it.

[Lemnear]

With 14 lands it's likely to be worse than cabal ritual and even chrome mox as for rain of filth to be at all good you want 3+ lands in play and 14 lands doesn't consistently accomplish that even with cantrips. Draw 2 rain of filth is a special kind of bad of course.

I agree with what Bryant said in his article about petition and new twister. One nitpick I have is that petition isn't bad against soft countermagic. It costs 2 mana same as infernal tutor as you can't storm off on BBB in legacy short of cruel bargain/infernal contract and I don't think anyone will be playing those in TES or ANT.

I think the new twister is abysmal. If you're going to pass after a 3 mana spell resolves on your end it might as well be doomsday and passing after resolving doomsday already feels bad enough as the opponent is likely to tear your shit up in a million different ways if you give them a fresh 7. The worst case scenario for the card isn't that unrealistic either in that your opponent draws quite well and you draw dog shit/likely lose on the spot. The worst case scenario that is also very realistic is the opponent putting a show and tell, sneak attack + activation, counterbalance, sensei's top, or something on the stack. I've already seen people advocate for a ban on the card and I'm just going to watch them do nothing with it as it's very fair. The only case I can think of where it could be good is if you get your hand torn to shreds and you resolve it to negate the discard or you are able to resolve it with a lot of artifact mana onboard on turn 1 or something to that effect/actually profit quite well off it.

I guess Days Undoing works best in decks like Tezzerator or with Goblin Welder in terms of "combo" aka decks running Chalice to not give away the game by passing the turn but reap a benefit from the mana cost of Undoing by running Sol lands and Signets. FoW+ThirstForKnoedge+Undoing+Chalice sounds fitting.

Petition -> Doomsday is real. Just to mention as an option here.

You seem to have the impression I'm not fine with Rain of Filth acting as a black Rite of Flame turn 2, but simply aiming at having it with 4 lands or the like which isn't the case. I don't think pointing at 2 Rains in terms of drawing multiples is valid if people are fine with playing 3 Moxen. Having like two lands and two Rains is still 3 mana; two lands and two Moxen are just two unless you see it as given to have two more useless cards for imprint. It's wierd to talk about 14 lands not delivering a base for Rain if I look at Kais GP Kyoto Video footage and see him making landdrops without end and even flooding out in the match against Miracles. You wanna really tell me there is a problem of getting to two of more lands in general or because it's totally common to win with 1 land against blue decks?

[Asthereal]

You seem to have the impression I'm not fine with Rain of Filth acting as a black Rite of Flame turn 2, but simply aiming at having it with 4 lands or the like which isn't the case. I don't think pointing at 2 Rains in terms of drawing multiples is valid if people are fine with playing 3 Moxen. Having like two lands and two Rains is still 3 mana; two lands and two Moxen are just two unless you see it as given to have two more useless cards for imprint. It's wierd to talk about 14 lands not delivering a base for Rain if I look at Kais GP Kyoto Video footage and see him making landdrops without end and even flooding out in the match against Miracles. You wanna really tell me there is a problem of getting to two of more lands in general or because it's totally common to win with 1 land against blue decks?
You could also run 1x Rain of Filth, 1x Chrome Mox. Problem solved.

[Bryant Cook]

I agree with what Bryant said in his article about petition and new twister. One nitpick I have is that petition isn't bad against soft countermagic. It costs 2 mana same as infernal tutor as you can't storm off on BBB in legacy short of cruel bargain/infernal contract and I don't think anyone will be playing those in TES or ANT.

How is a 5 mana spell not weak to soft countermagic? There's actually a pretty big deal between 2CC and 3 floating compared to 5CC + 3 Mana. The first allows you to play around Daze/Pierce, because if they have it you can get Empty the Warrens and you can cast discard spells before the tutor. Where is if you want to cast discard spells before Petition, you're likely not going to have enough mana.

As for Lemnears list, he's far too focused on beating one deck – he has tunnel vision on destroying Miracles. His list will suffer against Tempo/D&T/Maverick as being slow against them can hurt you, Empty the Warrens is huge there as well.

[Lemnear]

As for Lemnears list, he's far too focused on beating one deck – he has tunnel vision on destroying Miracles. His list will suffer against Tempo/D&T/Maverick as being slow against them can hurt you, Empty the Warrens is huge there as well.

According to MTG Top 8 data 28,4% of the Legacy metagame runs Daze, the same percentage runs Pierce and 29,4% for Wasteland, which mark matchups where an improved manageneration is desireable. 75,1% are running FoW to foil greedy turn 1 combos and unprotected kills postboard in any case. 14,4% run Counterbalance, 10% S&T while Aether Vial is down to a mere 5% and Thalia 3,5%.

It's not about Miracles. It's about having more and better mana to overcome these close to 30% of decks running Daze/Pierce/Wasteland which ANT has such a good matchup against thanks to powering through the manadenial and asuming that the T1/2 combo against all these FoW decks is doomed to fail unless you have a real nut draw with +6 mana, Tutor/Wish and discard. I'm fine "suffering" against Maverick and D&T as they are only damn 3,5% of the metagame.

You can't call it tunnel vision, if I prepare for the 75,1% FoW matchups which slow you down regardless, rather than for the 3,5% Thalia.decs. The last real remaining tempo deck aka RUG Delver is less than 2% of the metagame

[Bryant Cook]

According to MTG Top 8 data 28,4% of the Legacy metagame runs Daze, the same percentage runs Pierce and 29,4% for Wasteland, which mark matchups where an improved manageneration is desireable. 75,1% are running FoW to foil greedy turn 1 combos and unprotected kills postboard in any case. 14,4% run Counterbalance, 10% S&T while Aether Vial is down to a mere 5% and Thalia 3,5%.

It's not about Miracles. It's about having more and better mana to overcome these close to 30% of decks running Daze/Pierce/Wasteland which ANT has such a good matchup against thanks to powering through the manadenial and asuming that the T1/2 combo against all these FoW decks is doomed to fail unless you have a real nut draw with +6 mana, Tutor/Wish and discard. I'm fine "suffering" against Maverick and D&T as they are only damn 3,5% of the metagame.

You can't call it tunnel vision, if I prepare for the 75,1% FoW matchups which slow you down regardless, rather than for the 3,5% Thalia.decs. The last real remaining tempo deck aka RUG Delver is less than 2% of the metagame

Tempo decks are not exclusive to RUG Delver. BUG/Grixis are also mana denial decks. Even if all of those decks are running Daze/Pierce, Empty the Warrens is fantastic against them, it's one of our best tools in the match-up. You're not going to beat those decks by not playing basics (which is one of the reason ANT is successful against them) while running weaker rituals.

You don't have to slow down against blue based decks, an early Empty does wonders against a number of them.

Not to mention, having Chrome Mox is a big deal in the Omnishow match-up in which you need to be fast in.

[LDX]

I won't make a long, detailled report, but I have until Saturday night to make some adjustments. We have our first tournament of the season and people are getting used to my TES. Actually, the questions might be long, but only for the sake of precision.

Today was 2-2. Ok at best, but let's just say the match ups I had luck with last time turned bad this week.

2-0 vs UR Delver (Goblins helped, first time she was playing a blue Delver deck, it showed)
2-0 vs Elves! (easy matchup + new player on Elves!)
1-2 vs Death & Taxes (these Chalices... lost game one after mulligan to 5, then won, then lost again)
0-2 vs Affinity (insane top deck both games, Whipflare to clear Goblins, Cranial Plating after I just discard one in my turn)

My two points of the night

-Death & Taxes might be an easy match up, these Chalices of the Void @0 then @1 are destroying me.
-Affinity seems too fast if you don't win in the first two turn.

While the decks are different, it seems to my (small) experience that they are played the same against: go as fast as possible, before the hate drops down. I either win on T1, or after a Pyroclasm/Grapeshot/Massacre on all the hatebears and build up before they can recover. I've yet to meet a situation in which I can do a fancy EOT CoV on a Chalice to get me a win.

I would like to work on 2 things until Saturday:

1) Hands to keep against these decks
2) Grapeshot, Pyroclasm & Massacre boarding

Sadly, I had horrible draws & mulligans, I don't know how else I could explain it.

For the plan I had, I kept what I considered good hands (missing 1 tutor, but had Ponder & Brainstorm, for instance). Funny part is, it seems I had the same two major issue vs both decks: first, horrible mulligans. On my 5 games vs them, I kept at 7 one, and I won that game. I mulliganed twice to 6, and twice to 5. Hands with no lands nor enough mana to go on first turn. Then, when I keep a hand and try to setup a kill by turn 2 or 3, I either get a Chalice or a Canonist set against me.

My question will then be this one, but I doubt it can be easily explained: in my opening hand, should I rather aim for a turn 1 kill, even if I have to go on 4 cards, or should I instead work around hate?

By the time I find my missing piece, there is something stopping me, all the time. Chalice, Canonist, Thalia, Revoker, or an equipped Cranial Plating to prevent the Ad Nauseam.

In other words, what I tried to do was to get a good, solid hand, to combo as fast as possible vs both decks. It failed all games, leaving me with a single missing piece every time, while they builded their way to win. As it only worked once if 5 games, I'm wondering if the strategy I chose to go for is a good one.

For instance, I lost my first game vs Death & Taxes mostly because of a mulligan to 5, after two hands without lands or reliable mana source. Then, I won with Goblins on turn 1. Third game, I mulligan to 6, get a turn 1 Ad Nauseam combo. Since he's on the play, Chalice @ 0. Little things like that. Was a mulligan to 5 a better idea? Against Affinity, pretty much the same. I get a good mulligan at 6, ready for a turn 2 win. She's on the play. She drops her hand on the floor and has a Cranial Plating equipped on a Vault Skirge. My turn, I play my Ponder, settle things for next turn. She swings for 7 Lifelink, I now have to do 27 damage with a 12 life Ad Nauseam, considering the fetch. It's DOABLE and there are other things to do like Burning Wish for hate, etc, but this week, I couldn't recover after my sweepers. Let's bring up this point now.

Grapeshot, Pyroclasm, and Massacre.

Well first of all, I usually side Grapeshot and Pyroclasm in, and leave Massacre outside. Today, it costed me games twice. Two times did I have a Burning Wish in hand, enough mana to grab a 2CMC sweeper, and couldn't because they were board in. Didn't have enough for Massacre and either you don't get enough juice for your incoming combo, or you're just too short on time to hardcast and then combo. I don't want to cut the Massacre out as it gave me a game vs D&T and Elves!, however I'm starting to think about having in main post board and leave either GS or Pyro in side up to be grabbed. The issue I would see with that is the highest curve for AdN, but how often do you win with AdN in these matchups? Isn't it better to Empty the Warrens after a sweep, when our opponents have no hands or creature? I might have been doing something wrong, but AdN was too slow to build after a sweep.

I'm sure this has been discussed before.

On a TL;DR note, let's make these few scenarios, and see what's the best solution

1) Keep a very fast hand with no protection to combo as fast as possible, either with Empty the Warrens or Ad Nauseam, and try to find CoV, Pyroclasm or the like if needed
2) Mulligan until you find a Chalice hate
3) Keep a defensive hand with Pyroclasm or Grapeshot against Thalia/Canonist/Revoker, then hope to build back quicker than them
4) Please, I need enlightenment.

Or is it too vague to be answered at all? :(

[Lemnear]

For the plan I had, I kept what I considered good hands (missing 1 tutor, but had Ponder & Brainstorm, for instance). Funny part is, it seems I had the same two major issue vs both decks: first, horrible mulligans. On my 5 games vs them, I kept at 7 one, and I won that game. I mulliganed twice to 6, and twice to 5. Hands with no lands nor enough mana to go on first turn. Then, when I keep a hand and try to setup a kill by turn 2 or 3, I either get a Chalice or a Canonist set against me.

My question will then be this one, but I doubt it can be easily explained: in my opening hand, should I rather aim for a turn 1 kill, even if I have to go on 4 cards, or should I instead work around hate?

It might sound dumb, but if you have constant problems of getting mana into your hand, I suspect you shuffle the deck not good enough.If done properly the deck has a solid density of lands to draw into. Did they stick together from previois games? Your mulligan rate is beyond explainable and the bolded part might reveal another problem: You should not mulligan hands just because they do not have 5+ mana turn 1 or 2. I can't make detailed analysis unless you write down hands you kept/mulled, but something is wrong with your evaluation and/or shuffling. You do not get down to 4 like ever. I can barely imagine a T1 mill hand with 4 cards at all.


By the time I find my missing piece, there is something stopping me, all the time. Chalice, Canonist, Thalia, Revoker, or an equipped Cranial Plating to prevent the Ad Nauseam.

So? You have Decay/CoV/sweepers for that case.


In other words, what I tried to do was to get a good, solid hand, to combo as fast as possible vs both decks. It failed all games, leaving me with a single missing piece every time, while they builded their way to win. As it only worked once if 5 games, I'm wondering if the strategy I chose to go for is a good one.

Mull every hand which is no adequate reaction. You can't complain about missing pieces and willingly start games with 1-2 cards less than your opponent. Keep the first playable hand and work for your win. If you bank on the deck rewarding greedy mulligans rather than required ones, you see the result


For instance, I lost my first game vs Death & Taxes mostly because of a mulligan to 5, after two hands without lands or reliable mana source. Then, I won with Goblins on turn 1. Third game, I mulligan to 6, get a turn 1 Ad Nauseam combo. Since he's on the play, Chalice @ 0. Little things like that. Was a mulligan to 5 a better idea? Against Affinity, pretty much the same. I get a good mulligan at 6, ready for a turn 2 win. She's on the play. She drops her hand on the floor and has a Cranial Plating equipped on a Vault Skirge. My turn, I play my Ponder, settle things for next turn. She swings for 7 Lifelink, I now have to do 27 damage with a 12 life Ad Nauseam, considering the fetch. It's DOABLE and there are other things to do like Burning Wish for hate, etc, but this week, I couldn't recover after my sweepers. Let's bring up this point now.

Grapeshot, Pyroclasm, and Massacre.

Well first of all, I usually side Grapeshot and Pyroclasm in, and leave Massacre outside. Today, it costed me games twice. Two times did I have a Burning Wish in hand, enough mana to grab a 2CMC sweeper, and couldn't because they were board in. Didn't have enough for Massacre and either you don't get enough juice for your incoming combo, or you're just too short on time to hardcast and then combo. I don't want to cut the Massacre out as it gave me a game vs D&T and Elves!, however I'm starting to think about having in main post board and leave either GS or Pyro in side up to be grabbed. The issue I would see with that is the highest curve for AdN, but how often do you win with AdN in these matchups? Isn't it better to Empty the Warrens after a sweep, when our opponents have no hands or creature? I might have been doing something wrong, but AdN was too slow to build after a sweep.

I have troubles getting you on sweeping against D&T, Goblins or Affinity. I suspect you board out the discard for the Sweepers and bounce? Boarding Masacre is wrong. Again: I have serious problems to identify the exact problem (especially with Affinity) without proper notes.[/quote]


I'm sure this has been discussed before.

On a TL;DR note, let's make these few scenarios, and see what's the best solution

1) Keep a very fast hand with no protection to combo as fast as possible, either with Empty the Warrens or Ad Nauseam, and try to find CoV, Pyroclasm or the like if needed
2) Mulligan until you find a Chalice hate
3) Keep a defensive hand with Pyroclasm or Grapeshot against Thalia/Canonist/Revoker, then hope to build back quicker than them
4) Please, I need enlightenment.

Or is it too vague to be answered at all? :(

I answered that already. You play the pace the deck wields you. Do not force mulligans, board/shuffle properly and all issues should solve themselves

[ElDorte]

Hey Guys how's going?

Yesterday i played at our weekly league and i think more and more our meta gets wierd. Maybe thats normal i dont know.

Yesterday was:
2 Infect
1 Deathblade
2 Death & Taxes
3 Burn
1 Sylvan Plug
1 RUG Delver
1 Some Kind of Wierd homebrew
1 Reanimator
And something i forgot.

How do you play against such a meta. Just play the regular Sideboard and hope that the maindeck more or less gets the job done or would you play something special here.
And is this normal for a local meta to be like that.

Edit: my Sideboard atm is:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Massacre
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Void Snare

Greetings Christian

[kkkant]

Today i did 5-0 at the Legacy Side Event in the GP Buenos Aires.
Standard list, with this sb:

2 CoV
2 Pyroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 ToA
1 PiF
1 Thoughtseize
1 Empty the Warrens

Faced UW control, Team America, OmniTell, Maverick and DnT.

Really missed a tutoreable sweeper (or at least a bouncer) like massacre, pyroclasm, void snare or even grapeshot. Although pyroblast were good i think massacre is must have.

[LDX]

I'll need to clarify a few things before the tournament starts, in two hours. I'll try to be more specific next time and bring precise situations and actual plays instead of talking general issues, if this is what you prefer.

Thank you for your input on mulligans. I'll admit that I have a problem properly shuffling my deck. I'll try to focus on that tonight. I also appreciate when you say that I should, instead of focusing on a single plan, just take what my hand gives me and play around that. To build the game, as you said.

The problem I have with this is the following: if I'm not proactive, I don't have time to build the game. Chalice @ 0 if I don't go on the first turn while I'm on the play. Chalice @ 1 when I'm on draw and can't win first turn. This is the reason I'm trying to (and maybe wrongly, as you seem to think) make sure my first two turns are great. Especially since, just as you said, Lemnear, I shoud not board Decays against D&T. Let's put Magic and TES aside for a second, and talk about thought process and mutual exclusive, as I suspect you have experiences and thoughts I am missing.

It seems not boarding Decays forces you to go fast because (causality) you won't have enough to counter their Chalice. It seems like ''take the time to build your hand'' and ''do not bring the only thing that counters your main problem, online on turn 1'' are mutual exclusive to me.

What am I missing? I would understand if you said ''You should have in hands something good enough to build in your first turn'', or a ''You have the right tools, but you don't use them right'', however, I would not know what you refer to. Nor would I know how to use my tools properly, I guess. Care to teach me once again?

That being said, I read a few posts back and I have some confusion regarding a few posts.

Let's start with this:


By playing an additional green source we can reliably side in Decay versus Wasteland decks, making it a much more versatile card. The second green source would likely have to be a Bayou as Tropical can't be searched for by Bloodstained Mire and we run only a basic Swamp, so we need our Mire. The alternative would be Taiga, which I'm not convinced is the greatest option.

I believe the new SB plan against D&T would be:

-3 Duress
-2 Ponder
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Void Snare
+1 Bayou

Is not having a second source of green the only reason we're not boarding Decays against D&T? If so, since it's the only deck with Wasteland in my meta, I'll trade the Swamp for a Tropical Island in a heart beat. I expect 3 decks running Chalice of the Void tonight. I also see no sweepers here, no Grapeshot, no Pyroclasm. The sideboard didn't have any, in fact. Lemnear, you approved my sideboard choices a few post ago, which was the following:

-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Pyroclasm

You even suggested less Ponder for Grapeshot and Void Snare, which were useful to me when I followed your advice. Now I might not understand properly, but you said in your last reply to me and you had ''troubles getting you on sweeping against D&T, Goblins or Affinity.''

How so? :frown:


So? You have Decay/CoV/sweepers for that case.

That's implying three things.

1) I'm boarding Decays
2) I can actually play my cards
3) I have them in hand

If I follow your advice of ''going with the flow'', If the deck gives me a good 7 cards hand, ready to go on turn 1 but missing a single piece. If my Brainstorm gives me 3 tutors when I'm missing a mana source, I don't have the counter hate, nor do I have what I'm missing. These situations happen a lot, changing of course what I'm looking for and what I find.

Now I understand that mulligans reduce my chances even more, I get that. But these situations happen too at 7 cards. Are you telling me it happens less often? I'll believe you, but it won't fix my problem except to a slight margin. Better than nothing, I guess.


Boarding Masacre is wrong.

Yeah, I might see why, but it still doesn't solve the issue. I'll double check with you: you're telling me I should (or could, at the very least) board both Grapeshot and Pyroclasm, thus leaving nothing for BW at 2cmc, because I should ''go with the flow'' anyway and not aim that hard for a sweeper. If this is correct, my experiences have been awful with this strategy. With your confirmation tho, I'll still try it and take detailed note so I can see why it's not working for me: what card I played wrong, pure badluck, or a generic terrible move. I'll take your word and we'll analyze the data together, when it ends.


Quick sideboarding sheet for tonight, feel free to correct

Manaless Dredge: -2 Duress, -1 Cabal Therapy, +3 Xantid
Blue Shell Manaless, Xantid more reliable than discard

Elves!: -1 Empty the Warren, -1 Ponder, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Grapeshot
Keep the Duress and trade for the NO/GSZ. Empty only if you know what you're doing. (I feel the Tendrils tonight... ;) )

The Gate/Pox: None
(or Empty the Warrens for Past in Flames, if too much hate for Goblins)

Affinity: -2 Duress, -3 Cabal Therapy, +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor
Bryant said +1 Chain, +1 Void Snare, but I guess it's purely because of the lack of a 2nd Chain. I would rather board the Chain and have the Void Snare to grab with a BW. That being said, why no sweepers? It seems like sweeping their whole hand turn 2 is the best way to win against them, no? An Empty the Warrens after a clean board seems so powerful! Quick explanation?

Death & Taxes: -2 Duress, -3 Ponder, +1 Grapeshot, +1 Pyroclasm, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare
I don't want to die to Chalice, but I'll believe. I've never put that much blind faith into someone on the Internet.

Merfolk: -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ponder, -2 Dures, -1 Cabal Therapy +3 Xantid, +3 Abrupt Decay
I don't know how good this is, but if it's Bryant's choice... I don't see how it protects me from Cursecatcher, but well, you can't protect from everything. I guessed the discard for the Decays as stated on the website, as if I apply the same logic here I do for Manaless, Xantid is better than discard vs counterspells.

UR Delver: None
Skill match up I would guess?

Dark Maverick: -2 Duress, -3 Ponder, +1 Grapeshot, +1 Pyroclasm, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare
Same logic as vs D&T, but I doubt he will get Chalice, so it scares me less.

I'll make sure to check if I can get a reply before tonight. Once again, thanks a lot, wish me luck, I feel like winning tonight!

[Asthereal]

LDX, don't forget that when an opponent has all the sick stuff, you usually just lose. If your opponent has 10 hate bears, full sets of Wastelands and Ports AND Chalice of the Void, things simply don't look too good for your Storm deck. The only way to beat such an amount of hate is to get lucky: win dice rolls, draw hands that win on turn 1-2 or luckily draw the stuff his hate cannot handle.

[LDX]

LDX, don't forget that when an opponent has all the sick stuff, you usually just lose. If your opponent has 10 hate bears, full sets of Wastelands and Ports AND Chalice of the Void, things simply don't look too good for your Storm deck. The only way to beat such an amount of hate is to get lucky: win dice rolls, draw hands that win on turn 1-2 or luckily draw the stuff his hate cannot handle.

Yeah, that seems right, but I'm quite sure a good TES player would prevent such a situation to happen in the first place, and that's what I'm trying to become. Tournament is over anyway, I'll try to get my notes and make maybe not a report, but a questioning thesis on my plays. Thanks for the support! :)

[Lemnear]

I'll need to clarify a few things before the tournament starts, in two hours. I'll try to be more specific next time and bring precise situations and actual plays instead of talking general issues, if this is what you prefer.

I'm not much online during weekends, so this did not work out lol. Yeah, I prefer clear situations


Thank you for your input on mulligans. I'll admit that I have a problem properly shuffling my deck. I'll try to focus on that tonight. I also appreciate when you say that I should, instead of focusing on a single plan, just take what my hand gives me and play around that. To build the game, as you said.

The problem I have with this is the following: if I'm not proactive, I don't have time to build the game. Chalice @ 0 if I don't go on the first turn while I'm on the play. Chalice @ 1 when I'm on draw and can't win first turn. This is the reason I'm trying to (and maybe wrongly, as you seem to think) make sure my first two turns are great. Especially since, just as you said, Lemnear, I shoud not board Decays against D&T. Let's put Magic and TES aside for a second, and talk about thought process and mutual exclusive, as I suspect you have experiences and thoughts I am missing.

You can't make "sure" your first turns are great. Trying to force it leads to losses caused by entering the games with less cards overall which means less mana, less business and less lands in your hand and slowing you down. The point about Decay is that you need three mana to remove Thalia and your mana is pressured by Wasteland in addition which often renders the Decays uncastable.


It seems not boarding Decays forces you to go fast because (causality) you won't have enough to counter their Chalice. It seems like ''take the time to build your hand'' and ''do not bring the only thing that counters your main problem, online on turn 1'' are mutual exclusive to me.

You need to realize that a D&T with Chalice is a really iffy matchup in any case. Personally I don't see a difference between Chalice @1, Thalia or Canonist coming down turn two. There is a fine line between trying to be fast and having backup (CoV), being completely reactive (CoV+Decays) or gambling for a better hand via mulligan which is often statistical nonsense unless your starting grip already features a virtual mulligan (several tutors for example)


Is not having a second source of green the only reason we're not boarding Decays against D&T? If so, since it's the only deck with Wasteland in my meta, I'll trade the Swamp for a Tropical Island in a heart beat. I expect 3 decks running Chalice of the Void tonight. I also see no sweepers here, no Grapeshot, no Pyroclasm. The sideboard didn't have any, in fact. Lemnear, you approved my sideboard choices a few post ago, which was the following:

-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Pyroclasm

You even suggested less Ponder for Grapeshot and Void Snare, which were useful to me when I followed your advice. Now I might not understand properly, but you said in your last reply to me and you had ''troubles getting you on sweeping against D&T, Goblins or Affinity.''

How so? :frown:

This is getting out of hands. We're talking about several different builds here mixed up for boarding. Decays, Grapeshots and Clasms all need 3 mana against Thalia/Wasteland which I hinted at before.


That's implying three things.

1) I'm boarding Decays
2) I can actually play my cards
3) I have them in hand

If I follow your advice of ''going with the flow'', If the deck gives me a good 7 cards hand, ready to go on turn 1 but missing a single piece. If my Brainstorm gives me 3 tutors when I'm missing a mana source, I don't have the counter hate, nor do I have what I'm missing. These situations happen a lot, changing of course what I'm looking for and what I find.

That's why we run the cantrips and understanding these is key. If you need mana AND a business spell for going off and you cast Ponder into RoF/Petal/Fetchland, you shuffle. You do this simply because the deck is 40% mana and you draw into mana more naturally than into Tutors.


Now I understand that mulligans reduce my chances even more, I get that. But these situations happen too at 7 cards. Are you telling me it happens less often? I'll believe you, but it won't fix my problem except to a slight margin. Better than nothing, I guess.

Of course your options are better with 7 cards than with 6, but I admit I have a hard time to even get the point anymore. Is this still about boarding, gameplay postboard with several settings or a general problem of fixing hands?


Yeah, I might see why, but it still doesn't solve the issue. I'll double check with you: you're telling me I should (or could, at the very least) board both Grapeshot and Pyroclasm, thus leaving nothing for BW at 2cmc, because I should ''go with the flow'' anyway and not aim that hard for a sweeper. If this is correct, my experiences have been awful with this strategy. With your confirmation tho, I'll still try it and take detailed note so I can see why it's not working for me: what card I played wrong, pure badluck, or a generic terrible move. I'll take your word and we'll analyze the data together, when it ends.

I'm telling you that needing 3 IMS' for Decay/Clasm/Grape is a bitch against Thalia/Wasteland and causes more problems (less filtering, higher cmc for AN) than keeping the deck slick with Ponder+CoV postboard to fix certain possible issues (Chalice @ 1 aside). This just as a general hint, because I can't deliver tailor-made solutions for everyones MB and SB configuration, so of course it makes sense to board all the cheap removal you have for discard. We can analyze later if the notes are sufficient.

[Ebonclaw]

One of my friends plays D&T so I've tested that matchup many, many, many times. Here's what I've learned:
I want a hand that can go off before my opponent can get to two mana. At two mana, bad things happen, like Thalia, and Chalice, etc. Empty the Warrens is a perfectly acceptable and safe play as soon as possible if you see T1 basic Plains in G1. In G2, this is still a fine play, but I need to watch out for Cataclysm, which really only gets boarded in because, well, it's better than StP against me. If you kill a D&T player in G1, watch out for it in G2 and don't forget to flashback Therapy to check for it.
If I can't get a hand that can go off that quickly, I'll settle for a hand that features Cabal Therapy, and maybe I can buy myself an extra turn or two with some discard action.
Abrupt Decay is hard to fire off, but I still board in a pair to fight Chalice of the Void, in addition to a CoV. I haven't figured out if I like Massacre as a wish target, or in the main, but getting access to it one way or another is extremely powerful in this matchup if you can get to it.
If my hand isn't that fast, or feature disruption, I'm probably going to ship it unless it happens to be a card away and I've got a Brainstorm or something.
The good news is that there's no pressure to play around countermagic-if you've got it, just go for it obviously, the tradeoff is there's an enormous amount of pressure to go off fast or be able to disrupt just enough to go off a turn later.
I tend to SB out 3-4 Ponders for 2 Abrupt Decay, CoV, and/or massacre, but I think that a better choice might be 2 CoV, 2 Abrupt Decay. There's not a lot of time to sculpt, especially if D&T is on the play. If D&T is on the play in G2, you pretty much only get one turn unless they kept a crap hand without a T2 play or you have CoV, which buys you one extra turn perhaps. Unless they set Chalice for 1, but usually, they like to play Chalice for 0 on T1 to keep you from going off before they can stick Thalia if they have it. Our biggest strength is our speed in this matchup IMO, and I always try to play to that advantage.
But yeah, as Lem pointed out, D&T featuring Chalice is an iffy matchup. Win the dice roll, and be faster, you're the unfair deck, act like it!

[Lemnear]

If D&T gets out of hand locally, there is still the option to run Dread of Night

[LDX]

Allright. First off, I got obliterated. Double Elimination tournament, went 0-2.

1-2 vs Elves!
1-2 vs Death & Taxes

The camera didn't work again, so I'm a bit pissed and disappointed not being able to write down where everything went. This is what I wanted too. I still took some notes, but before I write what I can, I would like to discuss about a few of your points to maybe explain my thought process in-game. I hope we can end this sideboard issue soon.

I'm also quite sure we can distinguish my losses due to me making mistakes or being bad in general, and this specific discussion regarding sideboard. Because two situations happen at the same time doesn't mean they're linked. Thank you!



The point about Decay is that you need three mana to remove Thalia and your mana is pressured by Wasteland in addition which often renders the Decays uncastable.
Personally I don't see a difference between Chalice @1, Thalia or Canonist coming down turn two.
Decays, Grapeshots and Clasms all need 3 mana against Thalia/Wasteland which I hinted at before.

Abrupt Decay is hard to fire off, but I still board in a pair to fight Chalice of the Void, in addition to a CoV. I haven't figured out if I like Massacre as a wish target, or in the main, but getting access to it one way or another is extremely powerful in this matchup if you can get to it.

If D&T is on the play in G2, you pretty much only get one turn unless they kept a crap hand without a T2 play or you have CoV, which buys you one extra turn perhaps. Unless they set Chalice for 1, but usually, they like to play Chalice for 0 on T1 to keep you from going off before they can stick Thalia if they have it. Our biggest strength is our speed in this matchup IMO, and I always try to play to that advantage.

I think we strongly disagree on a single point: to me, Chalice of the Void is the main threat, and surpasses Thalia or Canonist or Revoker by a wide, wide margin. Else the strong (Chalice) vs soft (Hatebear) locks, the main difference is that Thalia, Canonist and Revoker all die to sweepers. Even when they're in play, there is a way to get rid of them. Please note that against D&T, I never thought of bringing Massacre in the main, my questionning was strickly against Affinity, where I always have to pay the full cost of Massacre.

Yes, it costs 3 mana, but first, they can only get that down by turn two, and I can clear it by turn 3. It's a world of difference in comparison to Chalice of the Void@1 with which I have no way to interact without Abupt Decay.

Even Chalice @0 doesn't give a game loss right away and can be played around, but only with a bounce effect, compared to Thalia or Canonist in play, as creatures can be bounced and killed with sweepers. Let alone the fact that the creatures come into play later, or at the very best, at the same turn of a Chalice@1.

And that's only Chalice@0. Chalice@1, turn 2 when they're on the play, I have no way to remove it without the Decays. You can tell me the effort is not worth it and that I should scoop at that point, that I should have won before anyway (which means two turns while on the play, ouch), but you can't say there's no difference between Chalice and Hatebears...

That being said, I understand that keeping more sweepers make us slower, and give D&T more time get the Chalice. Yet because sweepers exist, I feel much more confidant to work around Thalia or Canonist than going against a Chalice. I understand this is an iffy matchup. I also understand you guys are facing different metas and need some sideboard slots that I could free for more hate against some decks. And finally, I also understand that 3 mana is a lot when we're trying to go as fast as possible.

What I still can't grasp is, how is this any relevant if I can't go off before my turn 1 anyway. How is bringing a sweeper or a Decay against a Ponder bad, when a Ponder wouldn't let you win by T1? Also at best, G3, a Duress could get me a Chalice out T1. But that means nothing else than that, we're not any closer to winning. Without sweepers, it's almost (due to CoV and VS) a must to go T2 to avoid the Hatebears. The only moment I see Duress being more relevant than, let's say, Pyroclasm, is that after landing all your mana artifact on the play T1, he would have settled his Chalice @1 instead of 0.

Long story short, as iffy as it is, it still seems to me that it's a choice between a ''this is too hard to do, won't work'' vs ''this is just impossible''. I would rather have it hard than have a garanteed loss. In both plan you try to go as fast as possible anyway and none of the changes from my perspective to yours change that at any speed. I'm also skeptic, because you guys helped me so much already and seem so sure about your idea, while I can't understand how you can know everything about TES and not see/care about this flaw. It appears to me like a big, bright red button in the sky. I can't wait until we have an agreement on that plan.

***

Now regarding the tournament. I won both first game easily, turn 2 Ad Nauseam both games. Couldn't manage to win any side games. As I said, I'm saddened that I couldn't get enough notes. Next time, I'll bring my own camera, and I intend to play a few games on Cockatrice and save the replays so I can discuss about them with you, Lemnear.

Game 2 against Elves! was a suicidal race. On the play, I knew he wanted to go faster then me. I took the bate and kept a risky hand, having Volcanic Island, Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire and Bayou as lands, plus a Dark Ritual, a Gitaxian Probe, and a Pyroclasm in hand. Maybe a mulligan would have been a better choice. It's rather easy, I know it's hard for him to go by turn 2, so he'll just drop his Elves and I'll Pyroclasm the hell out of them. Since I had a lot of lands (too much for my taste too), I guess I could easily come back from that play to win the following turn, as I didn't need Rituals that much, so cantrips or business would be enough.

On turn 1, he Thoughtseize me. He takes away my Probe, so I guess he has something else in mind. I draw a Lotus Petal, sadly pass, thinking he doesn't have enough Elves in play to T2 Pyroclasm anyway. He prefers to play a Cabal Therapy on his second turn, naming Pyroclasm. I draw 2 other lands, he draws business, I have a Ruric Tar in my face by turn 4, he swings lethal at turn 5. Game didn't last long.

However, I had G3 against Elves! with a high-end play that I didn't see until the game was over, which funny enough, was very close to the hand Bryant posted on Facebook the day before. I had Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, LED and Ad Nauseam. I knew he was playing discard so I had to put down my artifacts down on first turn, as I was told to. So I tried to Brainstorm on first turn to make sure I could hide some more and play all my artifacts to go asap.

I found an other LED. I should have put back Probe + Ad Nauseam, play both LED first turn, wait until his turn, draw Probe on my T2, play it, sac both LEDs and play Ad Nauseam right on my turn 2. I didn't, I lost.

Now loses like that, I can live with, as I notice my mistakes easily and can correct them later.

Death & Taxes was much more difficult. After a quick turn 2 win first game, he starts on the play. My hand is the following:

Swamp
Gitaxian Probe
Polluted Delta
Lotus Petal
Empty the Warren
Infernal Tutor
Lion's Eye Diamond

Having a good mix of everything, I choose to keep this hand. Of course, he has a Chalice @ 0. I think I draw a Cabal Therapy, and not taking chances, I name Chalice of the Void again.

I see nothing that important. On his turn, he draws Thalia. I can't read what I wrote on that part, but it was surely full of hatred.

Again, G3 is a long, long war. I'm not sure, but my note says as opening hand:

Chrome Mox
Burning Wish
Burning Wish
Swamp
Gitaxian Probe
Pyroclasm
Ponder

I keep the hand, having 2 Burning Wish and a Pyroclasm, I feel confident in the sweepers. I play Probe, I see Chalice, Flickerwisp, Cavern of Souls, Rishadan Port, Plains. I don't don't what I draw, but then I play the Chrome Mox on a Burning Wish to avoid the @0 counter. It helps me reset the game with a Massacre, but he already had Jitte in play and he finds a creature sooner than I find a second blue land (he kept the Underground Sea I could draw with Port). Was a very, very long game. I remember 2 Chain of Vapor, a germ equipped with a Batterskull + a Jitte, etc etc. Again I feel the sweepers did best this game, but couldn't get rid of that Chalice which prevented the LEDs and Petals I drew.

Can't help anymore and I don't expect much thoughts with such a low amount of notes, but that problem itself will be fixed.


If D&T gets out of hand locally, there is still the option to run Dread of Night

I don't hate the idea, but it doesn't take Revoker, doesn't help vs Chalice, and does nothing with Affinity. The red splash helps vs both decks.

Talking about Affinity, no I didn't have to face it in the tournament, but my thoughts can be really easily explained. They play their whole hand on turn 1, and can't start attacking before turn 2. A single board wipe and I have a few free turns to build. I don't think the match up is more complex than that. Yes, I guess Chain of Vapor COULD be useful vs a few stuff, but this seems to be the ''fat'' I would cut in order to have a faster deck, not the other way around. Since the play seem that easy, I was pondering about boarding Massacre instead of Empty the Warren and leave a 2 mana sweeper in the side, to have an easier access/earlie access/manaless access to a wipe in the sideboard via Burning Wish. I sometimes had a Burning Wish, needed a wipe, but only had 4 mana. A Pyroclasm in the side would have won me the game, that's why I'm questionning.


One of my friends plays D&T so I've tested that matchup many, many, many times. Here's what I've learned:
I want a hand that can go off before my opponent can get to two mana.

Good for you, but to me, it seems I have to go before my opponent starts his first turn. Barely exaggerating :frown:


Abrupt Decay is hard to fire off, but I still board in a pair to fight Chalice of the Void, in addition to a CoV. I haven't figured out if I like Massacre as a wish target, or in the main, but getting access to it one way or another is extremely powerful in this matchup if you can get to it.

I'm fine with Massacre on the side. My questions would be the following: do you have more sweepers in your board, and would you use them if you had any?


Our biggest strength is our speed in this matchup IMO, and I always try to play to that advantage.
But yeah, as Lem pointed out, D&T featuring Chalice is an iffy matchup. Win the dice roll, and be faster, you're the unfair deck, act like it!

I agree, but as far as I've seen, none of the sideboard changes affect in any way the speed of the deck. It's not like I'm trying to transform the deck in Miracles, I'm just thinking a sweeper wipes D&T except for Chalice, which should be Decay's job, and that boarding all of these hate for cards that won't help you go T1 anyway seem obvious to me. I appreciate your imput tho.


unless your starting grip already features a virtual mulligan (several tutors for example)

What else would be considered a virtual mulligan? I find all the hands with Ad Nauseam a bit squechy, and to a certain extend, I feel the same with Empty the Warren if I have a LED or something.


That's why we run the cantrips and understanding these is key. If you need mana AND a business spell for going off and you cast Ponder into RoF/Petal/Fetchland, you shuffle. You do this simply because the deck is 40% mana and you draw into mana more naturally than into Tutors.

Tutors over mana. Got it.


I'm telling you that needing 3 IMS' for Decay/Clasm/Grape is a bitch against Thalia/Wasteland and causes more problems (less filtering, higher cmc for AN) than keeping the deck slick with Ponder+CoV postboard to fix certain possible issues (Chalice @ 1 aside). This just as a general hint, because I can't deliver tailor-made solutions for everyones MB and SB configuration, so of course it makes sense to board all the cheap removal you have for discard. We can analyze later if the notes are sufficient.

Well you know what, I think you've been a fine tailor so far. I'm also quite sure you understand that with such a sideboard, the deck might be thicker, but I think (still waiting to be proved wrong tho) it helped more than it costed me games, maybe not this week, but surely earlier. I still haven't boarded the Decays and still Chalice has been my doom. It feels like all I need would be a featured match TES vs D&T.

Hell, if I ever manage to win a tournament, I'll take the prize money and pay for some TES lessons.

Thanks again.

[Asthereal]

Good for you, but to me, it seems I have to go before my opponent starts his first turn. Barely exaggerating :frown:
Again, don't focus on these hands by D&T.
If they have the nuts and you don't, you lose. That's it.
You really need to test more and get a feel for what they usually do to you.

If what you describe is what people do all the time against you, I recommend you play the following:
Lands: 4 Wooded Foothills, 4 Arid Mesa, 4 Windswept Heath, 2 Taiga, 2 Plateau, 1 Savannah, 1 Mountain, 1 Forest, 1 Plains /20
Creatures: 4 Wild Nacatl, 3 Kird Ape, 3 Loam Lion, 4 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Qasali Pridemage, 2 Knight of the Reliquary /24
Spells: 4 Lightning Bolt, 3 Chain Lightning, 3 Forked Bolt, 3 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Sylvan Library /16

[ElDorte]

LXD if there is so much hate in you meta its hard to play the deck and not get frustrated. I had the same problem with burnplayers bringing in Leyline of Sanctity against me.

I dont know if youre in the Facebook Group but one time i asked on the opinion about Meltdown in the Sideboard to deal with Chalice. Here i think for you Meltdown would be a good Choice since its a 2 Mana hate against chalice and a 3 Mana Akromas Vengance against Affinity.

[LDX]

Honestly, the real frustration comes from the following. I know I'm not a good TES player, or a good MTG player in general. I want to improve as a player. Yet, despite that, I've been the target among my playgroup, all my opponents are so afraid of TES because I won a few games that they build their decks around mine. It's easier to learn to swim in a pool than in the lake full of water mines... I just don't survive long enough to learn as much as I would like in the games I play. Not winning isn't the issue.

And yeah, if my plan was to win the league by the end of summer, at this point, I would switch deck, but I would rather just min/maxing my chances to play TES and getting ready for a larger meta, one day.

Thanks for your support tho!

[Asthereal]

Honestly, the real frustration comes from the following. I know I'm not a good TES player, or a good MTG player in general. I want to improve as a player. Yet, despite that, I've been the target among my playgroup, all my opponents are so afraid of TES because I won a few games that they build their decks around mine. It's easier to learn to swim in a pool than in the lake full of water mines... I just don't survive long enough to learn as much as I would like in the games I play. Not winning isn't the issue.

And yeah, if my plan was to win the league by the end of summer, at this point, I would switch deck, but I would rather just min/maxing my chances to play TES and getting ready for a larger meta, one day.

Thanks for your support tho!
It can be tough in a small play group. It's never going to be good.
If you play Zoo, you are the boring dude turning guys sideways.
If you play Miracles/Landstill you are the grinder.
If you play combo, you are the uninteractive guy.
If you play Delver variants, you are a netdecker.

I would like to suggest Magic Work Station and ask people here to playtest.
This expands your play group. MWS is free and if you ask people here, you know they will probably be competitive enough.

Staying stuck in your small play group is clearly holding you back right now, and it would be a shame if you were to let that drive you away from playing one of the coolest decks in the meta.

[Final Fortune]

If you're having trouble with D&T then you can try something like Thoughtseize instead of Duress or Death's Mark instead of Chain of Vapour, one of the reasons I hate Chain of Vapour is that it exposes you to Wasteland so removal that's more congruent to your basic land may improve the match up overall.

Disfigure isn't a Burning Wish target, but in the case of Eidolon it gives you an answer and it's more flexible against Thalia in terms of being able to remove her during their turn.

As far as the spoiled tutor is concerned, it's clearly a choice to replace the Infernal Tutor in the SB, but do we want 4 Infernal Tutor in the MD when most of our match ups are vs Island.dec? Because one of the things that the spoiled tutor does not do well vs Infernal Tutor is SB in vs aggro and once we've SBed out Infernal Tutor vs control what's the utility of the spoiled tutor then?

[Lemnear]

I think we strongly disagree on a single point: to me, Chalice of the Void is the main threat, and surpasses Thalia or Canonist or Revoker by a wide, wide margin. Else the strong (Chalice) vs soft (Hatebear) locks, the main difference is that Thalia, Canonist and Revoker all die to sweepers. Even when they're in play, there is a way to get rid of them. Please note that against D&T, I never thought of bringing Massacre in the main, my questionning was strickly against Affinity, where I always have to pay the full cost of Massacre.

Yes, it costs 3 mana, but first, they can only get that down by turn two, and I can clear it by turn 3. It's a world of difference in comparison to Chalice of the Void@1 with which I have no way to interact without Abupt Decay.

Even Chalice @0 doesn't give a game loss right away and can be played around, but only with a bounce effect, compared to Thalia or Canonist in play, as creatures can be bounced and killed with sweepers. Let alone the fact that the creatures come into play later, or at the very best, at the same turn of a Chalice@1.

And that's only Chalice@0. Chalice@1, turn 2 when they're on the play, I have no way to remove it without the Decays. You can tell me the effort is not worth it and that I should scoop at that point, that I should have won before anyway (which means two turns while on the play, ouch), but you can't say there's no difference between Chalice and Hatebears...

-snip-

Long story short, as iffy as it is, it still seems to me that it's a choice between a ''this is too hard to do, won't work'' vs ''this is just impossible''. I would rather have it hard than have a garanteed loss. In both plan you try to go as fast as possible anyway and none of the changes from my perspective to yours change that at any speed. I'm also skeptic, because you guys helped me so much already and seem so sure about your idea, while I can't understand how you can know everything about TES and not see/care about this flaw. It appears to me like a big, bright red button in the sky. I can't wait until we have an agreement on that plan.

Lets make this one much simpler then: Over the last reports I got the idea that there is no Miracles or Blade.dec at all in your metagame. Is that correct? If it's the case and your metagame is so focussed on spamming you with artifacts (also Affinity) and hatebears, you can outsmart the hate by cutting Decays & Grapeshot & Clasm and replacing them with Shattering Spree & Dread of Night. Sprees replicate gets around Chalice @ 1 and hammers Affinity hard (also: Jitte, Batterskull, Vial, Revoker, etc.) with Rite of Flame already in the deck while Dread presents a lasting solution to Thalia and friends.

get me right: there is a lot of space to maneuver around hate with TES' standard configuration, but if your metagame is so narrow and trying to tackle you from a single angle, then please use the decks and sideboards flexibility and make adjustments. I don't see stuff like D&T with MB Chalice, so I don't plan for that nor I'm arguing for rare circumstances but for the common, blue matchups, but whenever your local metagame shifts to a hatedeck parade, there is no reason to stick to the generic blue metagame sideboard we suggest for bigger anonymus tournaments.


Now regarding the tournament. I won both first game easily, turn 2 Ad Nauseam both games. Couldn't manage to win any side games. As I said, I'm saddened that I couldn't get enough notes. Next time, I'll bring my own camera, and I intend to play a few games on Cockatrice and save the replays so I can discuss about them with you, Lemnear.

do that.


Game 2 against Elves! was a suicidal race. On the play, I knew he wanted to go faster then me. I took the bate and kept a risky hand, having Volcanic Island, Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire and Bayou as lands, plus a Dark Ritual, a Gitaxian Probe, and a Pyroclasm in hand. Maybe a mulligan would have been a better choice. It's rather easy, I know it's hard for him to go by turn 2, so he'll just drop his Elves and I'll Pyroclasm the hell out of them. Since I had a lot of lands (too much for my taste too), I guess I could easily come back from that play to win the following turn, as I didn't need Rituals that much, so cantrips or business would be enough.

On turn 1, he Thoughtseize me. He takes away my Probe, so I guess he has something else in mind. I draw a Lotus Petal, sadly pass, thinking he doesn't have enough Elves in play to T2 Pyroclasm anyway. He prefers to play a Cabal Therapy on his second turn, naming Pyroclasm. I draw 2 other lands, he draws business, I have a Ruric Tar in my face by turn 4, he swings lethal at turn 5. Game didn't last long.

I would have played Delta into Sea hardcasting Probe, if you keep the hand, which is questionable as you can't get naturally hellbent by turn 4 and EtW sucks anyways. The deck has more or less a 40% chance to topdeck mana anyways, so it was pretty likely that this hand can be raced even if you would have been able to cast the Clasm.


However, I had G3 against Elves! with a high-end play that I didn't see until the game was over, which funny enough, was very close to the hand Bryant posted on Facebook the day before. I had Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, LED and Ad Nauseam. I knew he was playing discard so I had to put down my artifacts down on first turn, as I was told to. So I tried to Brainstorm on first turn to make sure I could hide some more and play all my artifacts to go asap.

I found an other LED. I should have put back Probe + Ad Nauseam, play both LED first turn, wait until his turn, draw Probe on my T2, play it, sac both LEDs and play Ad Nauseam right on my turn 2. I didn't, I lost.

Now loses like that, I can live with, as I notice my mistakes easily and can correct them later.

yep


Death & Taxes was much more difficult. After a quick turn 2 win first game, he starts on the play. My hand is the following:

Swamp
Gitaxian Probe
Polluted Delta
Lotus Petal
Empty the Warren
Infernal Tutor
Lion's Eye Diamond

Having a good mix of everything, I choose to keep this hand. Of course, he has a Chalice @ 0. I think I draw a Cabal Therapy, and not taking chances, I name Chalice of the Void again.

I see nothing that important. On his turn, he draws Thalia. I can't read what I wrote on that part, but it was surely full of hatred.

Again, G3 is a long, long war. I'm not sure, but my note says as opening hand:

Chrome Mox
Burning Wish
Burning Wish
Swamp
Gitaxian Probe
Pyroclasm
Ponder

I keep the hand, having 2 Burning Wish and a Pyroclasm, I feel confident in the sweepers. I play Probe, I see Chalice, Flickerwisp, Cavern of Souls, Rishadan Port, Plains. I don't don't what I draw, but then I play the Chrome Mox on a Burning Wish to avoid the @0 counter. It helps me reset the game with a Massacre, but he already had Jitte in play and he finds a creature sooner than I find a second blue land (he kept the Underground Sea I could draw with Port). Was a very, very long game. I remember 2 Chain of Vapor, a germ equipped with a Batterskull + a Jitte, etc etc. Again I feel the sweepers did best this game, but couldn't get rid of that Chalice which prevented the LEDs and Petals I drew.

Can't help anymore and I don't expect much thoughts with such a low amount of notes, but that problem itself will be fixed.

I think the play with this hand would have been Swamp, Mox (Wish), Wish for either Massacre or EtW and then slowroll with your Clasm.


I don't hate the idea, but it doesn't take Revoker, doesn't help vs Chalice, and does nothing with Affinity. The red splash helps vs both decks.

Shattering Spree instead of Decays, like mentioned before


Talking about Affinity, no I didn't have to face it in the tournament, but my thoughts can be really easily explained. They play their whole hand on turn 1, and can't start attacking before turn 2. A single board wipe and I have a few free turns to build. I don't think the match up is more complex than that. Yes, I guess Chain of Vapor COULD be useful vs a few stuff, but this seems to be the ''fat'' I would cut in order to have a faster deck, not the other way around. Since the play seem that easy, I was pondering about boarding Massacre instead of Empty the Warren and leave a 2 mana sweeper in the side, to have an easier access/earlie access/manaless access to a wipe in the sideboard via Burning Wish. I sometimes had a Burning Wish, needed a wipe, but only had 4 mana. A Pyroclasm in the side would have won me the game, that's why I'm questionning.

see above. Adjust the SB to your local metagame. There is no reason to stuck to the generic SB for your local tournaments if linear hate takes over.


What else would be considered a virtual mulligan? I find all the hands with Ad Nauseam a bit squechy, and to a certain extend, I feel the same with Empty the Warren if I have a LED or something.

Multiple tutors, Lands/Cantrips you discard to LED anyways, Moxen, EtW/AN in hand with LED, etc. if you have LED + AN in hand you need a Brainstorm to set them up or to get rid of LEDs.


Tutors over mana. Got it.

good


Well you know what, I think you've been a fine tailor so far. I'm also quite sure you understand that with such a sideboard, the deck might be thicker, but I think (still waiting to be proved wrong tho) it helped more than it costed me games, maybe not this week, but surely earlier. I still haven't boarded the Decays and still Chalice has been my doom. It feels like all I need would be a featured match TES vs D&T.

Hell, if I ever manage to win a tournament, I'll take the prize money and pay for some TES lessons.

Thanks again.

Didn't you 4-0 one? :wink:

edit:

LXD if there is so much hate in you meta its hard to play the deck and not get frustrated. I had the same problem with burnplayers bringing in Leyline of Sanctity against me.

I dont know if youre in the Facebook Group but one time i asked on the opinion about Meltdown in the Sideboard to deal with Chalice. Here i think for you Meltdown would be a good Choice since its a 2 Mana hate against chalice and a 3 Mana Akromas Vengance against Affinity.

The tricky part is that affinity runs threats which cost more than 2cmc like Frogmite and Etched Champion where Meltdown gets really costy. It gets even worse if we talk about Batterskull, Sword of X & Y, Trinisphere, Thorn of Amethyst etc.

[LDX]

Thank you very much for everything.

There is indeed no Miracles or Stoneblade in my meta, those decks belonging to me and thus not played as long as I stick with TES. I could always give one for a night to someone else, but I guess I would know the matchup a bit better than them.

I appreciate the help, really. I guess I wasn't playing a fair game in the first place while I tried to stick with generic cards while they were focusing on me. Weapons weren't equals.

Maybe was it unfair from me to ask how to play a deck in such a specific meta. If it was too harsh from me, please accept this apologize. I guess I just tried to squeeze as much power as I could from a sideboard I should have changed anyway, but that takes us a few steps back, which I didn't bother to consider. I'm glad you could see how the situation was impossible with what I had and provided solutions.

We're playing for fun tonight. I might tweak a few things just to TES the water (haha. ha.). Now that this is settled, I'll have some free time to go in and actually play on Cockatrice. See you in a few days, and again, thanks everyone.

[Lemnear]

Just a few hours to go before I leave for the GP and none of the 17 Orders I made within the last 3 weeks arrived so far thanks to the postal delivery Strike in Germany. No green Duals for me, no cards I wanted to get signed for me or others (sorry Bryant), no finished Main or sideboard I had planned to play. This is going to be embarassing and I already have lost the interrest in the Trip, if I have to spend my Friday for getting the missing cards instead of Grinding the Trials for Byes. Guess that leaves me with a lot of time for chatter, coaching and stuff like that. I will give updates and Spam pics all weekend on Twitter (@ValeLemnear) and via Facebook. Come over if you spot me :)

[Lemnear]

Trials round 1: Fight!

[Echelon]

Just a few hours to go before I leave for the GP and none of the 17 Orders I made within the last 3 weeks arrived so far thanks to the postal delivery Strike in Germany. No green Duals for me, no cards I wanted to get signed for me or others (sorry Bryant), no finished Main or sideboard I had planned to play. This is going to be embarassing and I already have lost the interrest in the Trip, if I have to spend my Friday for getting the missing cards instead of Grinding the Trials for Byes. Guess that leaves me with a lot of time for chatter, coaching and stuff like that. I will give updates and Spam pics all weekend on Twitter (@ValeLemnear) and via Facebook. Come over if you spot me :)

Oh, so that means you have some free time to write that rap in the Elves! section..? :tongue:

I hope you get your build together for the main event. Good luck!