[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[LDX]

Best of luck in Lille!

[Pelikanudo]

Just a few hours to go before I leave for the GP and none of the 17 Orders I made within the last 3 weeks arrived so far thanks to the postal delivery Strike in Germany. No green Duals for me, no cards I wanted to get signed for me or others (sorry Bryant), no finished Main or sideboard I had planned to play. This is going to be embarassing and I already have lost the interrest in the Trip, if I have to spend my Friday for getting the missing cards instead of Grinding the Trials for Byes. Guess that leaves me with a lot of time for chatter, coaching and stuff like that. I will give updates and Spam pics all weekend on Twitter (@ValeLemnear) and via Facebook. Come over if you spot me :)

I wish you the best luck for you, Rock all of them Lemnear!!!

I would appreciate regardless you do well or not in the GP a report about how the things went for you, I really enjoy your reports!

[Countertoplol]

Quick question TES players. I know there's no replacement for a good sideboard, and trying to play budget versions of good legacy decks is a dumb idea, but I currently have TES made (Bryants list minus the Bayou, I've been using a gemstone mine) and I can't currently afford the green splash. If you were in my position, what would be some possible replacements for the decays and xantids in the sideboard? Bear in mind, I'll eventually just buy the green splash, but the legacy players I play with aren't that great and I haven't had trouble wrecking local events up until now (the events here are proxy, so I either proxy the green splash or just go with random cards like wipe away and still win because I'm much more experienced). Any suggestions would be great.

[Asthereal]

Quick question TES players. I know there's no replacement for a good sideboard, and trying to play budget versions of good legacy decks is a dumb idea, but I currently have TES made (Bryants list minus the Bayou, I've been using a gemstone mine) and I can't currently afford the green splash. If you were in my position, what would be some possible replacements for the decays and xantids in the sideboard? Bear in mind, I'll eventually just buy the green splash, but the legacy players I play with aren't that great and I haven't had trouble wrecking local events up until now (the events here are proxy, so I either proxy the green splash or just go with random cards like wipe away and still win because I'm much more experienced). Any suggestions would be great.
Stick to three colours and just play one additional discard and a few Pyroblasts on side would be my advice. The good thing about this is that you kind of "give up" on the CounterTop matchups, which allows for more space to make sure you win all the other matchups. Dread of Night is one card you may have space for now. But of course this all depends on what the other guys play. Dread of Night makes no sense if no one in your meta plays Maverick or Deat&taxes. :cool:

[wonderPreaux]

Quick question TES players. I know there's no replacement for a good sideboard, and trying to play budget versions of good legacy decks is a dumb idea, but I currently have TES made (Bryants list minus the Bayou, I've been using a gemstone mine) and I can't currently afford the green splash. If you were in my position, what would be some possible replacements for the decays and xantids in the sideboard? Bear in mind, I'll eventually just buy the green splash, but the legacy players I play with aren't that great and I haven't had trouble wrecking local events up until now (the events here are proxy, so I either proxy the green splash or just go with random cards like wipe away and still win because I'm much more experienced). Any suggestions would be great.

I was playing a 3 color build a few months back, and it wasn't "giving up" to countertop lock. EE, Pithing Needle, and Pyroblast gives you a lot of chances to aggress against Miracles and fight the lock, EE also doubles as hatebear removal if youre playing both basics.

[Lemnear]

Quick question TES players. I know there's no replacement for a good sideboard, and trying to play budget versions of good legacy decks is a dumb idea, but I currently have TES made (Bryants list minus the Bayou, I've been using a gemstone mine) and I can't currently afford the green splash. If you were in my position, what would be some possible replacements for the decays and xantids in the sideboard? Bear in mind, I'll eventually just buy the green splash, but the legacy players I play with aren't that great and I haven't had trouble wrecking local events up until now (the events here are proxy, so I either proxy the green splash or just go with random cards like wipe away and still win because I'm much more experienced). Any suggestions would be great.

I'm just back to the hotel and have taken a shower as the venue was NOT AIR CONDITIONED (was/is broke) and pure hell to stay there, not even talking about playing. Anyway, tomorrow it counts and I will just grab good and go building a 75 for tomorrow.

For your question: you can play without the greensplash with Pyroblasts and Wipe Aways to handle S&T as well as Counterbalance and stuff.

[LDX]

While we wait for the first reports in Lille, I might as well write down what happened last night at our weekly event.

I didn't have any Shattering Spree and since I expect Elves! to be played, I didn't bother to pack Dread of Night for a single deck. Ended 3-1.

1-2 vs Death & Taxes
2-1 vs Junk
2-1 vs The Gate
2-0 vs Elves


Round 1 vs Death & Taxes

Game 1
I win the dice roll. I get the following hand: Ad Nauseam, LED, LED, Dark Ritual, Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm, Cabal Therapy. That's right, no land. I still choose to keep as if I can manage to draw a land on turn 1 with a Gitaxian Probe, I'm very well settled for a T2 Ad Nauseam, if I learn from previous mistake and learn how to put back an Ad Nauseam on top. I play GP. I see SFM, SFM, Auriok Champion, Enlightened Tutor, Aether Vial, Rishadan Port, Plains. I'm glad to see I'm relatively safe. On the GP draw, lucky me, I get a Polluted Delta. I use it to fetch an USea, play Cabal Therapy and name SFM, in case my Ad Nauseam would fizzle and leave me with Goblins.

He drops a Plains at his turn and pass.

I draw a second Brainstorm on my T2. My T2 is compromised, but I'll at least setup for a T3. I play my first Brainstorm to see if I have any luck. I see a Swamp, a Lotus Petal, and a third LED. I feel it. I put back my Dark Ritual first, and then my Ad Nauseam on top of my library. I put Swamp down, then Petal, then 3 LEDs. Sacrifice LED to Brainstorm, I response I sacrifice my LEDs for 6 black and 3 red, resolve Brainstorm, draw Ad Nauseam, and the combo goes on alone. I'm glad I could correct my missplay in the tournament that quickly, but I'm afraid of the next games.

Game 2
I choose to try something new while I wait for the Shattering Spree and not board any sweepers. I go for -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, +2 CoV, +1 Void Snare.

My first hands are horrid to my eyes, but maybe will you tell me other wise: Polluted Delta, Polluted Delta, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Lotus Petal, Chain of Vapor. I'm on the draw, I would rather have not that many discard and no way to discard my hand before turn 4 for Infernal Tutor. I guess I could have hoped to find a Ritual on the draws, Infernal the said Ritual, and then hope to go from there, but I felt like it would be too little too late in the best of case. Was my judgment clouded by my fear of D&T, or was it a ''correct'' hand that you could have threw too?

My first mulligan was the following: Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Burning Wish, Polluted Delta, Chain of Vapor. Virtual mulligan when multiple tutor, you said?

Bloodstained Mire, Cabal Therapy, LED, Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens was my final hand. I guess I was hoping of drawing a Brainstorm/Gitaxian Probe and do a small goblin trick by Turn 1.

He opens with a Plains, pass. I draw a GP (didn't note down what I drew). I see Thalia, Ghost Quarter, Karakas, Jitte, Talia, Enlightened Tutor. Fetch, name Thalia with the Cabal Therapy. By the end of my turn, he plays Tutor for Ethersworn Canonist. On his turn, he drops Karakas, play the Canonist. Fine by me. I draw a land, I play it, I BW for Massacre and expect to kill his Canonist and be free to go next turn.

Now I had all the information to expect the following play, but I guess I didn't have the experience to think about it. He dropped his Ghost Quarter, destroyed his Plains, so I couldn't cast Massacre. If I went for a Pyroclasm, I would have won the game, as the following turn I drew enough mana and business to kill him. He dropped a Thalia by turn 4, + the Canonist, I stood no chance at that point.

Game 3
Opening hand was: Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, Ponder. My next 6 was Gitaxian Probe, Bloodstained Mire, Dark Ritual, Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy, Ponder. I kept this.He mulligans. Being hell of afraid of a Chalice, I lead with GP, and expect to Cabal Therapy after. I see Flickerwisp, Flickerwisp, Chalice, Plains, Plains, Ghost Quarter. I name Chalice and I'm very confident. Sadly, my notes were't great for this game, and I can't tell what I drew or what happened after. He topdecks a Thalia. We play land drops for a while, I make sure to drop my artifacts before a Chalice comes into play, to force him to drop a Chalice @1 instead. I manage to draw a Burning Wish I play while has a Flicker Wisp and a Thalia in play, to wipe the board next turn with Massacre. At the end of his turn, he still drops a Chalice @0, despite my bate. I play Massacre for 1 at my turn, then follow with a Cabal Therapy aiming on Stoneforge Mystic, as I plan to go Goblin next turn and don't want to race a Batterskull. He shows a Flickerwisp in hand with an other Thalia, and he topdecks an Ethersworn Canonist. I can't come back from that.

An other loss to Death & Taxes.


Round 2 vs Junk

This guy is a friend of us, but could only come back on the islands for the week, so he couldn't play before. He's by far the most ''involved'' in Legacy beside me I guess, he makes researches for his decks, etc. He wants to win and have fun studying the game.

Game 1
My funniest TES game ever, by far. Short story short, I win the dice roll, choose to play. I have a hand to go for 12 goblins turn 1 when I know he plays Junk, and play a Zealous Persecution maindeck. Adrenaline rush, gambling time, I go for it. I ask him, just for fun, if he has it in hand. He says no, so we're all excited. He top decks in front of me, showing me his card... Zealous Persection. I was so ready to scoop as we were both laughing hard already, but then I flip in front of him, my own top deck, Cabal Therapy.

Game 2
I choose not to sideboard, following the same logic as D&T: BW will only cost 4 mana for a wipe, instead of 2 mana, sure, but a hope to draw. I draw the following: Bloodstained Mire, Burning Wish, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Polluted Delta, Brainstorm, Brainstorm. He mulligans to 5.

I draw an other Burning Wish, I play a land.

My notes say in his turn, he Wasteland my land (which would mean I either fetched for no reason, missed a play, or I had a dual instead of a fetch in hand), and that I Brainstorm in response. He plays a DRS after that. My Brainstorm saw a BW, Ponder & USea. I didn't want an other BW, so I drew Ponder, fetched, and then played Ponder on my turn. At that point, I have BW, BW, BS, VS, DR, RoF in hand. I see GP, Ponder, Bayou with my Ponder. I choose to shuffle and thus draw a Swamp. I pass.

On his turn, he plays a fetch, and pass.

I draw an Infernal Tutor and I can't win at the moment. My notes are confusing, but with 3 Tutors in hands, I choose to Swamp > BW > Massacre while I still can. I choose to get on the Infernal Tutor train instead. However, at his turn, he Wastes my Volcanic and play an SFM.

I take a second to note the board state that time.

I'm at 16. He has SFM on the board and a Batterskull (+1 an other card) in hand. I have in play a Volcanic and a Swamp, and an Infernal Tutor, a Burning Wish, a RoF, a DR, an USea and a BS in hand. I can't go for Goblins while he has a Batterskull, that I know for a fact. I'm planning to go on a Ad Nauseam soon enough with the Infernal, but I feel like Past in Flames could be a great option if needed on the Tendrils. Thus, I choose to go for a Grapeshot kill on his SFM, making sure to have Grapeshot in my grave, then hope for the best. RoF + DR + BW goes in the grave.

He passes. I draw an Infernal Tutor. I feel done, but then, my lucky BS out of my USea shows me an LED, Ponder and Probe. I choose the LED, and then tap Swamp + Volcanic to play that extra Infernal Tutor on the LED, and feel good for a second win in a row.

Actually, it would have happened if I didn't forget to play my 2 fresh LEDs in play. As I kept them in hand, on his turn, he sacrifices his top deck SFM to a Cabal Therapy in his graveyard, and I lose a few turns of hard work as he takes away my 2 LEDs. Frustrating, yes, but I guess it takes time to get the good reflexes. Again, I'll learn from that. I scoop, ashamed, and get ready for the next game.

Game 3
Didn't take notes, video shows a T2 18 Goblins after I checked his hand with Probe.


Round 3 vs The Gate

Game 1
I'm on the draw. My hand is the following: LED, BS, Duress, GP, GP, Ponder, Volcanic. I feel ready to play a game of cantrips city.

He leads with a Swamp > Lotus Petal. It takes nothing, but it's an other reminder that I need to put my LED down on my turn, especially after that missplay G2 vs Junk. I choose to GP instead of Duress right away: his main deck doesn't have sweepers, and I'm sure some Goblins could win early if given the opportunity. However, I see Cabal Therapy, Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom, Bitterblossom, Liliana. I feel a bit safer and give myself a max turn 3 Ad Nauseam, which should be easily doable with so many cantrips and already an LED. So I Brainstorm, and see BS, IT, and an other LED. Game is won next turn, even without floating mana

Game 2
I don't have anymore notes, but I guess the video footage can help here. I keep my hand. He opens again with Cabal > Lotus Petal. He misses.

On my turn, I play a Gitaxian Probe. I choose to play Brainstorm after. I pass. He plays something else, probably an other discard. I think I hide well, but then, I can't win on my turn, and his Turn 3 is Hymn to Tourach that gets my BW down, and an Extirpate on that BW. My only way to win is to cast a good Empty the Warren from the cards I have in my library... I'm pretty sure it's possible, but we're turn 3 and he has a Dark Confidant online. I still try to go before Jitte, I put 10 Goblins down. Somehow I feel hopeful. And then, he drops an Engineered Plague.

Game 3
We both mulligan. I had 2 Cabal Therapy and 1 Duress in that hand, I remembered that trading discard for discard was ok in this matchup, but without fuel or business I would rather not try. On my turn, a drop a LED and a land. He plays Duress on his turn and take out Dark Ritual. If I remember properly, I had at that moment two Burning Wishes in hand and a few other things I couldn't cast yet. I choose to play with a Past in Flames plan before he makes me discard my Burning Wishes and maybe Extirpate them. I doubt a top deck Engineered Plague will happen again, but hey, we're not there yet. On my second turn, after his Duress, I thus cast a Burning Wish searching for Past in Flames. If he hits PiF with Hymn instead of something else, I'll be fine.

Exactly what happens. He hits Burning Wish and Past in Flames with Hymn to Tourach at his turn. I have no pressure at the moment, I'm still at 20, he has no creature. My biggest fear becomes Extirpate, but I try to build before he can reach it. I of course have no cards in hand because of all the discard, but I top deck an Infernal Tutor I play with mana, in order to get an other LED. On my next turn, I sacrifice the LED, making mana to flashback Past in Flames, and with my lands I play Infernal Tutor, going for LED, again on my other Infernal, so I soon get 4 LEDs, and since he doesn't have that Extirpate vs my BW, I win with a Tendrils as I flashback the BW he discarded with Hymn. A very confusing game, first time I was thrown in such a situation, but it ended well and it was fun. The discard I usually fear helped me quite a lot on that last game.

Round 4 vs Elves

Game 1
Not much to say. I win the dice roll, I have a turn 1 Ad Nauseam. She didn't play anything.

Game 2
She starts with a DRS. My hand, after my first draw, is Dark Ritual, 3 Fetches, and 4 Brainstorm. I play a first Brainstorm, manage to get a LED, play it, and pass. He fetches on her turn 2, gets a Bayou, and she plays an Elvish Visionary. She exiles my fetch and play a Wirewood Symbiote on top of that. I play a Brainstorm again, I don't see what I draw, but I pass. I know I have to go next turn before he combos off. She casts Thoughtseize on her turn, I respond with a Brainstorm, hiding my essentials, and win shortly after.

3-1.

I understand we'll have much more exciting matches to rate with Lille going on, but if any of you have time to correct or questions any of my plays, please do so! I'm third on our ranking and next week could put me in lead. We'll know soon. I'll keep it quiet with the questions until we clear out Lille event, but please, for all of you TES players, remember that every play you share is a part of knowledge someone else benefits from.

Thanks again!

[Asthereal]

First of all, you seem to be learning quite quickly. These plays look a lot better than previous reports. The fact that part of your notes are fuzzy is no surprise. It takes time to make accurate, efficient notes. I am still unable to take proper notes, and I have been playing this deck since 2008. :tongue:



Round 1 vs Death & Taxes

Game 2
He dropped his Ghost Quarter, destroyed his Plains, so I couldn't cast Massacre. If I went for a Pyroclasm, I would have won the game, as the following turn I drew enough mana and business to kill him. He dropped a Thalia by turn 4, + the Canonist, I stood no chance at that point.
This is a classic. Excellent play by your opponent, and a very understandable mistake on your part. The fact that one can blow up own cards too, in order to disrupt opposing cards is an often overlooked option. I could have made that mistake. Don't feel too bad about it, but do try to remember it.

I think your mulligans were all correct this match.



Round 2 vs Junk

Game 1
My funniest TES game ever, by far. Short story short, I win the dice roll, choose to play. I have a hand to go for 12 goblins turn 1 when I know he plays Junk, and play a Zealous Persecution maindeck. Adrenaline rush, gambling time, I go for it. I ask him, just for fun, if he has it in hand. He says no, so we're all excited. He top decks in front of me, showing me his card... Zealous Persection. I was so ready to scoop as we were both laughing hard already, but then I flip in front of him, my own top deck, Cabal Therapy.
LOL, nice! :laugh:

PS. If no one had revealed any of the cards drawn, you should always have played that Therapy, naming Persecution. I trust, having a bit more experience now, you would not have forgot about that?



Round 3 vs The Gate

Game 3
We both mulligan. I had 2 Cabal Therapy and 1 Duress in that hand, I remembered that trading discard for discard was ok in this matchup, but without fuel or business I would rather not try. On my turn, a drop a LED and a land.
I see no reason to not fire off the Duress here. What was your reasoning? More cards in hand is better, if only so you have a better chance to keep your best cards against a Hymn. When his targeted discard has a target other than your discard, you should try to get rid of his discard spells. Besides, as your play shows, you had nothing better to do anyway. :wink:

[Pelikanudo]

Round 1 vs Death & Taxes

Game 1
I win the dice roll. I get the following hand: Ad Nauseam, LED, LED, Dark Ritual, Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm, Cabal Therapy. That's right, no land. I still choose to keep as if I can manage to draw a land on turn 1 with a Gitaxian Probe, I'm very well settled for a T2 Ad Nauseam, if I learn from previous mistake and learn how to put back an Ad Nauseam on top. I play GP. I see SFM, SFM, Auriok Champion, Enlightened Tutor, Aether Vial, Rishadan Port, Plains. I'm glad to see I'm relatively safe. On the GP draw, lucky me, I get a Polluted Delta. I use it to fetch an USea, play Cabal Therapy and name SFM, in case my Ad Nauseam would fizzle and leave me with Goblins.



with such a first hand I would have passed the turn expecting petal or land to draw, on next turn you will draw polluted - fetch and play B.S. leaving A.N on top - next G.P and crack both LEDs in response - play A.N and win.
Don't know if this is trivial and will help...


EDIT: My storm neighbour from here Spain and me are building a new storm deck based on Dark Petition - We are thinking in creating a new Thread for this - we believe it has a different lines of play to create a new Deck Thread in Developmental. We are very entusiastic by this deck as the results are beeing quite impresive in real testing.
What do you think Storm friends? should we create a new thread?
- it is faster than ANT, slower than TES
- better built for the late game than TES and maybe than ANT
- it has 2 Engines - No Ad nauseam
- it packages Doomsday BUT no senseis.
- It neither packages Infernals

the con is that is more G.Y. dependant HOWEVER we found some nice tricks to win even with tormods or Lyline of the void in play!

I guarranty the results of testing are veery impressive, still I love TES the most... however this reminds me like I'm playing old DDFT but even quicker!

The deck is as follows (remember that was the creator of this deck):

1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual


4 Thougtseize (at first were 4 duress 3 therapy, dont know about this package...)
3 Duress

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Dark Petition

And the perfect engine!!!

1 Past in Flames
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Burning Wish
2 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony

sideboard (still under construction)

2 Carpet of Flowers
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Massacre
1 Karakas
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 The card like Silence but in green - I never remind this card name...
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul
1 P. Nedle
More discard
maybe EtW?

[LDX]

First of all, you seem to be learning quite quickly. These plays look a lot better than previous reports. The fact that part of your notes are fuzzy is no surprise. It takes time to make accurate, efficient notes. I am still unable to take proper notes, and I have been playing this deck since 2008. :tongue:

Thanks for the encouragement! I start to feel an improvement too in, how may I describe, the top plays I can make I guess? Like I feel I have a higher potential of winning with the deck. However, I still feel very inconstant. I can play very well one game and fail at the next one. As someone once said anyway... don't practice until you can make it right, practice until you can't make it wrong. Notes are a part of that too. :)



I think your mulligans were all correct this match.

To be honest, I'm just trying things at this point. Until my Shattering Spree arrive, I still don't know what to do. I suppose I just lack the experience to tell at 100% no sweepers and just the bounces are better. They still seem good to my eyes, but I'll take a break from them to see if the balloon goes flat.



PS. If no one had revealed any of the cards drawn, you should always have played that Therapy, naming Persecution. I trust, having a bit more experience now, you would not have forgot about that?

Indeed, I would still have named it. Hell, I would have named it if he showed me an other card anyway haha.



I see no reason to not fire off the Duress here. What was your reasoning? More cards in hand is better, if only so you have a better chance to keep your best cards against a Hymn. When his targeted discard has a target other than your discard, you should try to get rid of his discard spells. Besides, as your play shows, you had nothing better to do anyway. :wink:

My reasonning was, yes 7 cards is better than 6 or even 5, but I had 3 cards I didn't feel happy with, so 6 good cards were better than the 4 I considered good. I felt like I had to prioritize speed over a war over discard. Yet, you're most likely right. I'll keep such a hand next time. Your point about Hymn is very valid and something I didn't think on my own.



with such a first hand I would have passed the turn expecting petal or land to draw, on next turn you will draw polluted - fetch and play B.S. leaving A.N on top - next G.P and crack both LEDs in response - play A.N and win.
Don't know if this is trivial and will help...

Comments like those are the reasons I try to write reports. Of course it will help, having alternative plays (and optimized, I would guess, in this case) just show more perspective. How would you, in a short sentence, describe what your play has over mine? Is it the Wasteland protection? The less information you give? What advantage do you have over the Cabal Therapy I played? I just want to hear it from you. :)

[KaiSchafroth]

Dug out Twitch links from Lille of some on camera storming

Kai Sawatari v BUG Delver in R7 (http://www.twitch.tv/magic/v/6917648?t=4h29m59s)

Kai Sawatari v Grixis Delver in R13 (http://www.twitch.tv/magic/v/6947581?t=4h30m55s)

[sawatarix]

Check this out guys

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/kyoto-lille-2015-07-05

[Plague Sliver]

@sawatarix -- although your match with Saito finished on time, did you think that he was a little bit excessive in tanking at the end of your turn 1 / start of his turn 2 in game 3? To decide whether to guarantee flip Delver on turn 2. There was also a sequence where he tanked hard on your Ponder/Preordain on a later turn. I can't assume anything, but you looked liked you motioned for him to speed up.

I mean, it's a close game, but it wouldn't surprise me if he picked up a lot of timed wins in day 1...and it's not as if he was playing the more complex deck.

Brainstorm is a skill testing card, for sure, but it's not exactly like having to read rules text on Jace, TMS...now THAT takes a good 15 seconds, at least...

[entity]

Still waiting to hear from more TES pilots from Lille!
I only had a chance to talk to one of you during one of the last on-demand events that he won. You, sir, reignited my love to TES and I'll have to find time to pick it up again sometime soon :)
I haven't played TES myself for a while and I was judging at Lille, therefore you won't hear any raport from me :( . I don't think I saw many TES during the weekend, storm decks I got to spectate were mostly ANT.

Anyway, what's the consensus for the correct choices for the current metagame? I'll probably have time to hit GP London side events on Friday.

[Lemnear]

Still waiting to hear from more TES pilots from Lille!
I only had a chance to talk to one of you during one of the last on-demand events that he won. You, sir, reignited my love to TES and I'll have to find time to pick it up again sometime soon :)
I haven't played TES myself for a while and I was judging at Lille, therefore you won't hear any raport from me :( . I don't think I saw many TES during the weekend, storm decks I got to spectate were mostly ANT.

Anyway, what's the consensus for the correct choices for the current metagame? I'll probably have time to hit GP London side events on Friday.

Sorry to miss you then, pal. I doubt there there more than 7 TES in the Mainevent, but most if not all were finishing Day 1 with X-3.

My report will be finished tomorrow and showing my unconventional spin on the deck for the current european metagame which destroyed all Delver/Combo/Blade decks through the weekend. I would play the same mainboard again, but would like to fix the sideboard as the Xantids were underwhelming all weekend. More details tomorrow with the report.

[Dr_D]

I like to play a Badlands instead of a second Volc in this deck. It's not a budget reason, I just like badlands. How bad is this?

[Lemnear]

I like to play a Badlands instead of a second Volc in this deck. It's not a budget reason, I just like badlands. How bad is this?

Would be the third non blue source depending on your build, no? I have no data which number of nonblue lands will cause a problem for your cantripping. You sure want to evade the Situation that you have two non-blue lands in your opener and in most cases you prefer the non-blue Dual as your second land anyways if your opening grip Features cantrips.

Speaking from experience during the GP, I had hands with Fetchland + Bayou + Brainstorm (running two non-blue lands) which felt iffy, but I was able to solve the issues every time with my sequencing of spells or "land, go" against Wasteland.dec

[Dr_D]

Would be the third non blue source depending on your build, no? I have no data which number of nonblue lands will cause a problem for your cantripping. You sure want to evade the Situation that you have two non-blue lands in your opener and in most cases you prefer the non-blue Dual as your second land anyways if your opening grip Features cantrips.

Speaking from experience during the GP, I had hands with Fetchland + Bayou + Brainstorm (running two non-blue lands) which felt iffy, but I was able to solve the issues every time with my sequencing of spells or "land, go" against Wasteland.dec

Fair point, I hadn't thought about it that way. I'll continue noting when I'd rather it be a volc.

[Bryant Cook]

Peter Raab​'s tournament report from GP: Lille!

http://www.theepicstorm.com/heart-of-the-storm-grand-prix-lille-aftermath/

[Lemnear]

Nice! I wake up and see it's published and spread :)

Edit: I was free to do some editing in the lunchbreak. Fixed typos and added more cardtags

[Final Fortune]

Interesting idea to cut ETW and Chrome Mox, other than Meddling Mage on Burning Wish being an issue, and an issue that can easily be solved with a SB Pyroblast, it seems worth testing.

[Lemnear]

Interesting idea to cut ETW and Chrome Mox, other than Meddling Mage on Burning Wish being an issue, and an issue that can easily be solved with a SB Pyroblast, it seems worth testing.

I thought it's worth gambling against MB Meddling Mages (I have seen these in Deathblades as of late) and running w/o a mainboard wincon, in terms of fearing that Wishes get blocked/removed, was never an issue. For postboard games, you can pick your weapons between Pyroblast, Decay, Chain of Vapor, SB EtW(s) and whatever else floats your boat.

It plays a bit different, if you lack the 6 mana play with Infernal and have to be more careful about AN w/o mana float, which I tried to evade. This also means that you want to maintain Lotus Petals IN your Library rather than in hand or on the field pre-AN and I casted my Ponders and Brainstorms accordingly

[KaiSchafroth]

I'm sure there's a mix of rejoicing and complaining in other threads but/and while off-topic from deck developments and ideas...that B&R announcement was anti-climactic as hell.

[Lemnear]

After the editing of the report, I thought of why I did not bring in my 2 EtWs instead of the Xantids against Miracles to put up some natural, not overcommitting pressure? Is the idea totally off to drop like 6 goblins and just see if your opponent can answer those?

[Asthereal]

After the editing of the report, I thought of why I did not bring in my 2 EtWs instead of the Xantids against Miracles to put up some natural, not overcommitting pressure? Is the idea totally off to drop like 6 goblins and just see if your opponent can answer those?
I quite like this approach. But then again I am not a very good TES player. :cool:

[JamieW89]

After the editing of the report, I thought of why I did not bring in my 2 EtWs instead of the Xantids against Miracles to put up some natural, not overcommitting pressure? Is the idea totally off to drop like 6 goblins and just see if your opponent can answer those?

I also like the idea of 2-3 Empties vs Delver & Miracles and considered it for Lille in ANT (like I told you there), Kai came up with it on FB as well. However, in (limited) testing it didn't really seem stronger than 1 Empty though so I went with that (6-1'd Delver and 4-0'd Miracles anyways , with almost all postboard miracle games being won with tokens). If I had several in the board I'd definately like bringing 'em all in. Maybe you'd have to cut Wish postboard then though, adding in the Tendrils, PiF and 2 Empties (and Decays obv, and I don't like Swarm in the MU in general), becoming quasi-ANT with the Rites over CRits helping your empty plan but somewhat weakening the natural ToA/tutor chain/pif plans.

[TravisM]

During your game two against elves, it seems like some number of chrome mox may have been the difference. Would you consider the Rain of Filth(s) overall more useful than the occasional Ad nauseam brick or would having access to some number (in the board maybe?) be a worthwhile endeavor?

[Lemnear]

I also like the idea of 2-3 Empties vs Delver & Miracles and considered it for Lille in ANT (like I told you there), Kai came up with it on FB as well. However, in (limited) testing it didn't really seem stronger than 1 Empty though so I went with that (6-1'd Delver and 4-0'd Miracles anyways , with almost all postboard miracle games being won with tokens). If I had several in the board I'd definately like bringing 'em all in. Maybe you'd have to cut Wish postboard then though, adding in the Tendrils, PiF and 2 Empties (and Decays obv, and I don't like Swarm in the MU in general), becoming quasi-ANT with the Rites over CRits helping your empty plan but somewhat weakening the natural ToA/tutor chain/pif plans.

I really, really like that idea, Jamie. AN + 2 EtW + 1 PIF + 4 Decay postboard and still 4 Wishes for Tendrils/Dark Petiton as option sounds like a plan


During your game two against elves, it seems like some number of chrome mox may have been the difference. Would you consider the Rain of Filth(s) overall more useful than the occasional Ad nauseam brick or would having access to some number (in the board maybe?) be a worthwhile endeavor?

I had black and red mana float already and flipped 20+ cards ... how big is the chance to flip not even two pieces of acceleration (I was only able to get up to BBBR with the flipped Dark Ritual)? Less than 2%? Talking about "occasional" is a plain exaggeration here for this bad beat, given that it was the only Ad Nauseam cast that weekend, which didn't end up with my opponent dead. Moxen would have been worse than Rains most of the time that weekend and the Filths contributed to my flawless record againt Wasteland/Daze during all three days.

That being said, I will not hop back to Moxen just because of 1 bad beat, while Rains were plain awesome against Wasteland/Daze, which is traditionally a bad matchup otherwise.

[Final Fortune]

I really, really like that idea, Jamie. AN + 2 EtW + 1 PIF + 4 Decay postboard and still 4 Wishes for Tendrils/Dark Petiton as option sounds like a plan



I had black and red mana float already and flipped 20+ cards ... how big is the chance to flip not even two pieces of acceleration (I was only able to get up to BBBR with the flipped Dark Ritual)? Less than 2%? Talking about "occasional" is a plain exaggeration here for this bad beat, given that it was the only Ad Nauseam cast that weekend, which didn't end up with my opponent dead. Moxen would have been worse than Rains most of the time that weekend and the Filths contributed to my flawless record againt Wasteland/Daze during all three days.

That being said, I will not hop back to Moxen just because of 1 bad beat, while Rains were plain awesome against Wasteland/Daze, which is traditionally a bad matchup otherwise.

Are you happy with 2 Rain of Filth? I'm running a 1/1 split of Chrome Mox and Rain of Filth just because drawing 2 of either is terrible, and in game I rarely get a Rain of Filth for more than 3 vs Wasteland.dec

Do you have any numbers on how much cutting Chrome Mox reduces your chances of T1 Ad Nauseam or Empty the Warrens? Maybe it's psychological, but I seem to be summoning significantly less Goblins.

[Lemnear]

Are you happy with 2 Rain of Filth? I'm running a 1/1 split of Chrome Mox and Rain of Filth just because drawing 2 of either is terrible, and in game I rarely get a Rain of Filth for more than 3 vs Wasteland.dec

Do you have any numbers on how much cutting Chrome Mox reduces your chances of T1 Ad Nauseam or Empty the Warrens? Maybe it's psychological, but I seem to be summoning significantly less Goblins.

Well, the first Mox you draw is terrible most of the time unlike the first Rain, if you play that manabase. Drawing two isn't good, but thats also the case with Moxen or Wishes, if you know what I mean. What you however want, is seeing a Rain per game either pre- or post-AN to accelerate your mana and two has been fine in testing to match the criteria, especially as you flip more cards with AN overall anyways.

What I found very successful vs. Wasteland/Daze is just sitting and ensuring landdrops (preferable Fetchlands). You can't complain about Rain acting as a Dark Ritual here, if Mox would only have delivered +1 at best and eats another hand card in the process.

Most T1 combos bank on having at least 4 pieces of +1/+2/+3 acceleration/sources (Land/Petal/Mox/Rite/Ritual/LED) anyways and the impact of Chrome Mox (not even taking color requirements into consideration) is pretty marginal among them if you take the possible combinations of the acceleration into account which actually create 6+ mana with 7 starting cards. I can't calculate it while at work, but with a rough estimation I'd suspect you lose ~1,5-2,5% Turn 1 combos compared to the builds with 3 Moxen and EtW. In other words, the chance to explode T1 into AN or EtW drops from ~12% to ~9,5%, which however as no meaningfulness in terms of the question of if the opponent can interact or if Goblins are effective, which however was more important for my descision than the sheer drop of percentage. I also want to set this drop for T1 combos into relation with the significant improved percentage to combo turn 2 and turn 3 as well as to the hard to calculate impact the setup has against anything that can actually interact with your T1 combo or disrupts your mana.

Given the existing average number of decks in a tournament, which require you to explode T1 compared to the rest of the field, I was and am still fine with the reduced chance to combo T1, but partly drastic improvements for my turns 2/3/4/etc.

So it's almost satirical, that I was eliminated from the GP mainevent, because I wasn't able to combo Turn 1 on the draw against Miracles/Elves/MUD. I can't blame the deck for lost dicerolls and nutty hands of my opponents though in these examples, especially after basically destroying anything else.


P.S. My record against Miracles the whole weekend was far from acceptable, so I will shift the paradigm of "Decays + Xantids" towards "threat overload" like Jamie and Rodrigo suggested.

[Pelikanudo]

After the editing of the report, I thought of why I did not bring in my 2 EtWs instead of the Xantids against Miracles to put up some natural, not overcommitting pressure? Is the idea totally off to drop like 6 goblins and just see if your opponent can answer those?

I'm still trying to beat consistently miracles.... the Deck I try to fight is the Legend Miracles.

I'm not sure about the EtW main if to left it or not... but somehow sometimes seems good and sometimes is bad - this depends on how the Miracles player sides... in my experience 1st games much of them are won via EtW expecting to just not to topdeck Terminus.... as said sometimes it is ok and sometimes not...
I believe that the key is to not to invest too much resources on EtW - depending on the game state also.

I've been fairly happy with my side of 4A.D. and 2 Xantids vs them - now I will free up 1 slot maybe I put in the 3rd Xantid OR the Green Silence card just to see how this Works...
On thing I like from Xantid is that if you see removal from Opp. part, you - at worst - can handle Xantid until you draw C.Therapy - if you dont have it, to just Double Therapy the Opp.
The other thing I like is that if you play it on first turns, it is likely the Opp. can not have answers so that the Opp. needs to FoWs it.

As said, I'm still looking for some new tech vs this Miracles.

However I have to say that:
- for me 4 A.D. is a must vs this archetype
- Teste P. Nedle, Extirpate and Pyroblasts - P.Nedle and Extirpate just don't worth it and Pyro is not that great.
I need t test maybe Krosan at some point...

Apart regarding R.Filth and 0 C.Moxen and 0 EtW:
IMHO: I just cannot agree on these changes - now even we are going to explode A.N even more with that Super New card in Side - Dark Petition.

[Dr_D]

So I've been playing DDFT for years and just switched to TES because it generally feels stronger. Assuming I'm running the 75 Bryant just posted on the website, how would I want to board vs. Omni and Miracles? I know for Omni I want the red blasts, and for miracles I want carpets, blasts, and decays, but I'm too new to know what I should take out. Any help would be fantastic.

[KaiSchafroth]

So I've been playing DDFT for years and just switched to TES because it generally feels stronger. Assuming I'm running the 75 Bryant just posted on the website, how would I want to board vs. Omni and Miracles? I know for Omni I want the red blasts, and for miracles I want carpets, blasts, and decays, but I'm too new to know what I should take out. Any help would be fantastic.

If you're following the straight 75 and need a generic SB guide it's on the website under Additional Information - Matchup Analysis (http://www.theepicstorm.com/#additionalinformation) and there's a bit of detail on why the selected cards (in/out) in specific. That being said you'll probably find personal preferences in individual games/opponents which might require changes/not just going with the default sb

[Bryant Cook]

Well, the first Mox you draw is terrible most of the time unlike the first Rain, if you play that manabase. Drawing two isn't good, but thats also the case with Moxen or Wishes, if you know what I mean. What you however want, is seeing a Rain per game either pre- or post-AN to accelerate your mana and two has been fine in testing to match the criteria, especially as you flip more cards with AN overall anyways.

I don't really agree with much that has been said in this thread over the last few days. Peter and I have been moving in two pretty different directions with the deck, we don't agree on the strengths/weaknesses at this point. I believe he's making his list into a weaker version of ANT as he's slowed down considerably while having a worse manabase than ANT (no basics) and has to support more colors.

The reason I quoted the section above is the line about multiple wishes being bad. This is a side effect of you cutting everything from the sideboard other than 4 cards you could possibly retrieve, this is a cause of your own deck building. Not leaving yourself with Thoughtseize to act as disruption can lead to this.

[Dr_D]

If you're following the straight 75 and need a generic SB guide it's on the website under Additional Information - Matchup Analysis (http://www.theepicstorm.com/#additionalinformation) and there's a bit of detail on why the selected cards (in/out) in specific. That being said you'll probably find personal preferences in individual games/opponents which might require changes/not just going with the default sb

Ah thanks, I didn't realize that section had been updated too, sorry about that.

[Lemnear]

I'm still trying to beat consistently miracles.... the Deck I try to fight is the Legend Miracles.

I'm not sure about the EtW main if to left it or not... but somehow sometimes seems good and sometimes is bad - this depends on how the Miracles player sides... in my experience 1st games much of them are won via EtW expecting to just not to topdeck Terminus.... as said sometimes it is ok and sometimes not...
I believe that the key is to not to invest too much resources on EtW - depending on the game state also.

I agree


I've been fairly happy with my side of 4A.D. and 2 Xantids vs them - now I will free up 1 slot maybe I put in the 3rd Xantid OR the Green Silence card just to see how this Works...
On thing I like from Xantid is that if you see removal from Opp. part, you - at worst - can handle Xantid until you draw C.Therapy - if you dont have it, to just Double Therapy the Opp.
The other thing I like is that if you play it on first turns, it is likely the Opp. can not have answers so that the Opp. needs to FoWs it.

And it didn't work out in practice. It's not that Therapy or Xantid handle topdecked Counterbalances, which was exactly my Problem at some point. Being dead on board with two Xantids in play was about the worst. FoW/Plow wasn't even required to negate my Xantids, which left a bad taste in my mouth.


As said, I'm still looking for some new tech vs this Miracles.

However I have to say that:
- for me 4 A.D. is a must vs this archetype
- Teste P. Nedle, Extirpate and Pyroblasts - P.Nedle and Extirpate just don't worth it and Pyro is not that great.
I need t test maybe Krosan at some point...

If 3cc wasn't so damn painful, I would have picked then up before. Maybe I have to swallow this pill.


Apart regarding R.Filth and 0 C.Moxen and 0 EtW:
IMHO: I just cannot agree on these changes - now even we are going to explode A.N even more with that Super New card in Side - Dark Petition.

I don't get this. Show me just two examples where chrome Mox in your opening grip really improves your ability to get to 9+ mana turn 1.


I don't really agree with much that has been said in this thread over the last few days. Peter and I have been moving in two pretty different directions with the deck, we don't agree on the strengths/weaknesses at this point. I believe he's making his list into a weaker version of ANT as he's slowed down considerably while having a worse manabase than ANT (no basics) and has to support more colors.

The reason I quoted the section above is the line about multiple wishes being bad. This is a side effect of you cutting everything from the sideboard other than 4 cards you could possibly retrieve, this is a cause of your own deck building. Not leaving yourself with Thoughtseize to act as disruption can lead to this.

And it's totally fine to work in different directions and disagree at certain points. Personally, I don't think cutting Moxen for Cabal Rituals is a move to make the deck "faster" either. I'm convinced we both slowed down in the end and I dislike calling my approach "weaker Version of ANT" if you added Cabal Rituals to improve the PIF playline while I chopped EtW to improve Ad Nauseam. I like working in different directions to see how we can improve rather than agreeing on everything and change/test nothing :)

The part about multiple Wishes was just to Highlight that draws which do not immediately help do happen and that these do not keep us from running these cards. So far I have not stumbled over my limited selection. I have always found a way

[kkkant]

I know this question will haunt me forever, but has anyone ever tried pyromancer ascension as a SB option?

I've tried it this week and work out awesomely vs miracles, chalice.decks and grindy matchups.
Consider that people dont tend to bring in GY hate against us (at least people that can note the difference between ANT and TES) and we play 8 playsets (BS Ponder GP IF BW DR RoF CT),making it really easy to activate.
The games i played it, i managed to get it online a couple of turn after and then it simply went out of hands.

[Bryant Cook]

And it's totally fine to work in different directions and disagree at certain points. Personally, I don't think cutting Moxen for Cabal Rituals is a move to make the deck "faster" either. I'm convinced we both slowed down in the end and I dislike calling my approach "weaker Version of ANT" if you added Cabal Rituals to improve the PIF playline while I chopped EtW to improve Ad Nauseam. I like working in different directions to see how we can improve rather than agreeing on everything and change/test nothing :)

The part about multiple Wishes was just to Highlight that draws which do not immediately help do happen and that these do not keep us from running these cards. So far I have not stumbled over my limited selection. I have always found a way


I'm still playing a Mox so that my Ad Nauseams are a little more impressive, where you opt for a 14th land. It's not Rain of Filth vs Chrome Mox, it's Chrome Mox against a second Bayou - it's a little foolish to argue otherwise as we both added in two additional rituals. Those are what's in competition. Cabal Ritual is much better at supporting: PIF, Dark Petition and floating mana into Ad Nauseam than Rain of Filth. I believe my list is faster due to the main deck four mana line that I'm not giving up on my Infernal Tutors (Empty the Warrens) along with the Additional Mox and Cabal Ritual being worthwhile on turns 1+2 unlike Rain. You lost more than one match at the GP from your notes because of this.

Less targets for Wish certainly does make it worse. But it's not about "finding a way", it's about having the right cards in the right situations.

[Pelikanudo]

I don't get this. Show me just two examples where chrome Mox in your opening grip really improves your ability to get to 9+ mana turn 1.


When talking about C.Mox and exploding A.N I was refering mainly to the ability to just win on the spot once you start revealing with A.N. we need to agree both that 3 C.Moxen are better after A.N. than having 0.

Related to 2 Examples you ask me:
a)LED, LED, LED, RoF, RoF., B.W., C.M
b)LED, LED, LED, RoF, B.W., B.W., C.M
Joke.


Anyway, I just believe we are taking 2 Diff. directions. I still even play Gemstones! I cannot change my mind so much by the moment!!! understand me. I think we could interchange opinions about this which will not let on any change on mind by any part... Regarding your list the unique change I'd do is trying to set up any swamp in the base.

on the hand we can talk about Miracles and how to win this match up... I am very open to whatever related to this...
as said, by the moment 4 A.D. and Xantids is ok.

- I was evaluating in Doomsday + Emrakul +Shelldok isle plan - this was effective vs Miracles long time ago when played DD....
- maybe tons of Pyros plus 4 Vexing Shuser could help???? this is even good vs Omni...

Snif....

EDIT: Wow, I'm quite impressed how the Bryant Base has changed so much...
is this a change due to Dark petition?
I don't think this new Side card should change so much the face of TES...
Sure 1 Chrome Mox????

the TNT build would be much more stronger in my opinion...

[Final Fortune]

I haven't been too impressed with Rain of Filth after testing the no ETW/Mox version, a single Wasteland takes away too much value from your last ditch ritual compared to Cabal Ritual just naturally gaining value thru' Threshold without ever risking your manabase. Bayou is also very meh in your starting hand, I can't imagine MDing 2 being very consistent.

[Lemnear]

I haven't been too impressed with Rain of Filth after testing the no ETW/Mox version, a single Wasteland takes away too much value from your last ditch ritual compared to Cabal Ritual just naturally gaining value thru' Threshold without ever risking your manabase. Bayou is also very meh in your starting hand, I can't imagine MDing 2 being very consistent.

There are a lot of question marks left: Why did you expose the land to Wasteland? Does wasting a land make casting Cabal Ritual through Daze easier? Does a single Wasteland really make a difference for your T.hold?

It's Bayou + Swamp vs 2 Bayous. Do you want to tell me a Swamp is significantly better to get into the game than Bayou? Bayou at least casts Xantid while having a Swamp in your opener is even more limited. My manabase even has more lands so its less likely that your are stuck with only a non-blue land in your opener.


When talking about C.Mox and exploding A.N I was refering mainly to the ability to just win on the spot once you start revealing with A.N. we need to agree both that 3 C.Moxen are better after A.N. than having 0.

Related to 2 Examples you ask me:
a)LED, LED, LED, RoF, RoF., B.W., C.M
b)LED, LED, LED, RoF, B.W., B.W., C.M
Joke.

It's a two edged Sword: You have to get to 9 mana first so the Moxen as post-AN IMS are even relevant.


I'm still playing a Mox so that my Ad Nauseams are a little more impressive, where you opt for a 14th land. It's not Rain of Filth vs Chrome Mox, it's Chrome Mox against a second Bayou - it's a little foolish to argue otherwise as we both added in two additional rituals. Those are what's in competition. Cabal Ritual is much better at supporting: PIF, Dark Petition and floating mana into Ad Nauseam than Rain of Filth. I believe my list is faster due to the main deck four mana line that I'm not giving up on my Infernal Tutors (Empty the Warrens) along with the Additional Mox and Cabal Ritual being worthwhile on turns 1+2 unlike Rain. You lost more than one match at the GP from your notes because of this.

Less targets for Wish certainly does make it worse. But it's not about "finding a way", it's about having the right cards in the right situations.

It's Chrome Mox vs. Bayou and two freed SB slots as I don't have to run Carpets against Tempo/Delver. Cabal Ritual sucks in terms of floating mana unless you have t.hold which is kinda tricky to achieve, if we tend to cut Ponders postboard for solutions. There is no guarantee that I would have won these matches with Moxen and EtW in the deck, but I would have lost one or the other game without Rains manaboost. Everything comes at a price, but I have to resist your idea that the deck is to blame for losses like the one against Elves. For Gods sake, I had two mana float, what can I ask more for?


I know this question will haunt me forever, but has anyone ever tried pyromancer ascension as a SB option?

I've tried it this week and work out awesomely vs miracles, chalice.decks and grindy matchups.
Consider that people dont tend to bring in GY hate against us (at least people that can note the difference between ANT and TES) and we play 8 playsets (BS Ponder GP IF BW DR RoF CT),making it really easy to activate.
The games i played it, i managed to get it online a couple of turn after and then it simply went out of hands.

Getting PA online with Infernals, Wishes and Rituals is counterintuitive and most Miracles players board Wear/Tear anyways for the manacosts so you're fucked as they can counter the PA or destroy it with the same card. I have toyed with it in ANT which has even more cantrips and it was still far from worth it's slots.

[Pelikanudo]

Hey boys!

an idea came to my mind to fight Miracles! Im not sure if this I'll have enough side space....

playing 4 Dark Confidant plus 4 A.Decay.

BoB is itself a must threat to answer, which can be played soon turn 2 at its worst.
once BoB is on the table and you start to draw cards even if C.B. is landed you will get more chances to draw A.decay!

it is like playing a small EtW withouth investing too much resources or 0 resources. Once it is on the table just you need 1 turn to make sure at least 1 card is drawn so again the Opp. will obtain card disdvantage.
I believe it is like playing 4 EtW in terms of threatining - sure EtW will win the opp. if there is no answers to , but the difference is that if Opp. can answer EtW in the following 2 or 3 turns you are in a very bad position. IF the Opp. can answer BoB in the 2nd or 3rd turn you'll be in a veeery good position.

Well I'll start to test this approach...
This even has synergy with the idea of ovearload my Side with more Discard instead of Xantids because you now can discard more threats vs a) my BoB b) my Win. now Omnishow is lacking Leyline!

This is just theory...
Opinions?

[IlCannone]

Hey boys!

an idea came to my mind to fight Miracles! Im not sure if this I'll have enough side space....

playing 4 Dark Confidant plus 4 A.Decay.

BoB is itself a must threat to answer, which can be played soon turn 2 at its worst.
once BoB is on the table and you start to draw cards even if C.B. is landed you will get more chances to draw A.decay!

it is like playing a small EtW withouth investing too much resources or 0 resources. Once it is on the table just you need 1 turn to make sure at least 1 card is drawn so again the Opp. will obtain card disdvantage.
I believe it is like playing 4 EtW in terms of threatining - sure EtW will win the opp. if there is no answers to , but the difference is that if Opp. can answer EtW in the following 2 or 3 turns you are in a very bad position. IF the Opp. can answer BoB in the 2nd or 3rd turn you'll be in a veeery good position.

Well I'll start to test this approach...
This even has synergy with the idea of ovearload my Side with more Discard instead of Xantids because you now can discard more threats vs a) my BoB b) my Win. now Omnishow is lacking Leyline!

This is just theory...
Opinions?

Having tested Bob and actually playing AD in ANT I think I can say something about that topic.
For me, Bob is awful, he does not threaten their life and he isn't helping us win. In order to win against miracles, you have to be either quick qith discard-backup, or fight through their hate. So if they have counters you need to have your swarms or discard ready, if they have CB/TOP you need to have your AD or Krosan Grip ready. If you don't you simply loose.

So I played in Lille against Miracles from the board (EDIT:beating every Miracles opponent):
4 AD
2 KG
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Swarm

Nowadays I think I would prefer Young Pyromancer, who with also very low cost may give you another angle of winning: combat damage, which Bob does not provide since you can almost never attack safely.
Due to the success of Mentor, I am testing 3 Sulfur Elementals right now instead of Krosan Grip and cards like Dread of Night.
He is good against DnT, Loam playing Thalia now and blocking Hatebears, and good against Mentor.
If not, it is just an EOT (mostly) uncounterable 3-Power-beater against Miracles.

So far I was very pleased with him, cause people do not expect him, and that is when he is best (sounds true for almost every sideboard tech of combo... :> )

my2cents.

[Lemnear]

If Bob survives two full turns he's CA +1 only but can be plowed or blocked (Meddling Mage, Clique, Mentor, etc.). You could run Nights Whisper and have a better effect for the cost which doesn't require you to slowroll against Counterbalance/Clique/etc in the first place.

[LDX]

Not to say playing Bob is a good idea, but I'm quite sure his point was that Bob needs an answer in some way or an other, and the sooner the better, while I would let my opponent cast all the Sign in Blood and Night Whispers he wants.

[Pelikanudo]

Yeah... doesn't seem so good idea... anyway I maybe test

I was thinking on this approach because as I still play C.Moxen and Petals it could be a good approach for first turns... taking some lifes - 2 or 4 should be enough and next use tendrils.

Seems that the IllCanone Aproach is the best one... I already play 4 A.D. 2-3 Xantids maybe adding 2 more krosans... could help even more - it seems such a specific card... snif.

IllCanone how do specific side in and out vs Miracles with so many cards dedicated?

EDIT: Yes LDX my point was that! it is just a Threat which needs to be answered and makes you draw into A.D.
I saw a card anyway I dont remember its name - it is a Enchantment which makes phase out things - it seems to me ok, but not sure - this is polivalent as can answer both C.B. and senseis. I'm not sure if this also phases out M.Mages...

[Echelon]

I saw a card anyway I dont remember its name - it is a Enchantment which makes phase out things - it seems to me ok, but not sure - this is polivalent as can answer both C.B. and senseis. I'm not sure if this also phases out M.Mages...

You probably mean Teferi's Realm.

[IlCannone]

As I said, I am playing ANT and not TES, but anyway:

Roughly I board like that:
(Lille SB)

-1 Swamp
-4 Cabal Therapy
-1 PiF
-3 Preordain
-1 Cabal Ritual

+3 Swarm
+4 AD
+1 Nauseam
+2 Grip

But as I said, right now I like running SB's like this:

1 Ad Nauseam
3 Swarm
3 Sulfur Elemental
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Grip

To the Realm: I guess Miracles opponent just chooses Creatures everytime and calls it a day...

[Final Fortune]

There are a lot of question marks left: Why did you expose the land to Wasteland? Does wasting a land make casting Cabal Ritual through Daze easier? Does a single Wasteland really make a difference for your T.hold?

It's Bayou + Swamp vs 2 Bayous. Do you want to tell me a Swamp is significantly better to get into the game than Bayou? Bayou at least casts Xantid while having a Swamp in your opener is even more limited. My manabase even has more lands so its less likely that your are stuck with only a non-blue land in your opener.

It's Chrome Mox vs. Bayou and two freed SB slots as I don't have to run Carpets against Tempo/Delver. Cabal Ritual sucks in terms of floating mana unless you have t.hold which is kinda tricky to achieve, if we tend to cut Ponders postboard for solutions. There is no guarantee that I would have won these matches with Moxen and EtW in the deck, but I would have lost one or the other game without Rains manaboost. Everything comes at a price, but I have to resist your idea that the deck is to blame for losses like the one against Elves. For Gods sake, I had two mana float, what can I ask more for?



Swamp is strictly better than Bayou G1 and possibly better than Bayou G2 depending on your match up i.e. it's a liability vs Wasteland.dec while being a benefit vs Miracles - I still prefer the stability of Swamp.

Getting lands Wastelanded happens, you don't always get to Fetch for Swamp or sit on Fetchlands, the EV of the card off the ANT chain goes down as Wastelands are played while the EV of Cabal Ritual only goes up as the game is played. I'm not really sure which of the two is better in your hand, Rain of Filth may have the edge there. It feels like a lot of mediocre choices to choose from, I'm not really happy with any of them.

[Pelikanudo]

As I said, I am playing ANT and not TES, but anyway:

Roughly I board like that:
(Lille SB)

-1 Swamp
-4 Cabal Therapy
-1 PiF
-3 Preordain
-1 Cabal Ritual

+3 Swarm
+4 AD
+1 Nauseam
+2 Grip

But as I said, right now I like running SB's like this:

1 Ad Nauseam
3 Swarm
3 Sulfur Elemental
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Grip

To the Realm: I guess Miracles opponent just chooses Creatures everytime and calls it a day...

By the moment, I've purchaed 4 of these cards - I'm planning to make a rough testing - holidays is coming soon!!.
The good thing about Realm is that you on your upkeep can choose or HateBear or Coutenrbalance or Senseis, even I believe if 2 realm are in play you can choose C.B. and X. however the problem is still the same - this does not Work vs a landed C.B....

Related to you side, I surprise you board out 4 threapies. tell me why please. I undestand this is because if c.b. is in the Opp. hand you'd prefer to just use duress, however only 3 duress (I assume) and 3 Xantids seems to me few disruption cards...
I also think that having so much anti C.B. hate then when you play any duress, I think it is better to hold it for the mid-late game as you will not prefer to discard a c.b. if you have 6 dedicated slots to it - for this reason will not be better to side out Duress instead. which also has synergy with Xantid?

Anyway I'll try to make tests based on +2 Krosan likely in adition to my configuration and see what happens...

[Lemnear]

Swamp is strictly better than Bayou G1 and possibly better than Bayou G2 depending on your match up i.e. it's a liability vs Wasteland.dec while being a benefit vs Miracles - I still prefer the stability of Swamp.

Getting lands Wastelanded happens, you don't always get to Fetch for Swamp or sit on Fetchlands, the EV of the card off the ANT chain goes down as Wastelands are played while the EV of Cabal Ritual only goes up as the game is played. I'm not really sure which of the two is better in your hand, Rain of Filth may have the edge there. It feels like a lot of mediocre choices to choose from, I'm not really happy with any of them.

It's not that the base with Bayou + Swamp prevent you from ending up with a Bayou in your starting grip or that a Swamp joining a hand with cantrips, which isn't the definition of "stability", especially if the number of discard spells got reduced to make the "Fetch -> Swamp -> Discard" opening less likely to occur anyways, which acted as a selling point for Swamp against FoW + Wasteland as you sure remember.

What I miss is a word on the increased number of lands total and fetches in paticular, if you complain about seeing a Bayou in hand or facing Wasteland. The build banks on dropping your second land turn 2 and keeping a hand without two IMS or blue land + cantrips isn't going to fly, unless it can kill T1/2 by itself. You also ignore how bad Swamp + Xantid is in your starting grip compared to Bayou + Xantid. Combinations of Swamp+Volcanic or Swamp+Sea if you boarded Decays are totally iffy.

The value of Rain goes down, if you get wastelanded, but it's not Rains job to help against Wasteland, but the duty of the increased landcount, which feed the Rains to overcome Daze and Spell Pierce in a symbiose later in the game while you are able to steer the impact and timing of Wasteland to some extent with your Fetchlands. Aggressive cantripping is a no-go against Wasteland of course, but Probe helps to make the right choices.

Cabal and Rain are both options for longer games, but getting to t.hold isn't quite easy, if you run Wishes instead of more cantrips like ANT and, on top of that, usually cut cantrips postboard for hate. If you don't get t.hold online by turn 4 or even later (thanks to DRS), like it happend to me several times in testing, you start to question the value of Cabal Rituals.

[Bryant Cook]

It's not that the base with Bayou + Swamp prevent you from ending up with a Bayou in your starting grip or that a Swamp joining a hand with cantrips, which isn't the definition of "stability", especially if the number of discard spells got reduced to make the "Fetch -> Swamp -> Discard" opening less likely to occur anyways, which acted as a selling point for Swamp against FoW + Wasteland as you sure remember.

What I miss is a word on the increased number of lands total and fetches in paticular, if you complain about seeing a Bayou in hand or facing Wasteland. The build banks on dropping your second land turn 2 and keeping a hand without two IMS or blue land + cantrips isn't going to fly, unless it can kill T1/2 by itself. You also ignore how bad Swamp + Xantid is in your starting grip compared to Bayou + Xantid. Combinations of Swamp+Volcanic or Swamp+Sea if you boarded Decays are totally iffy.

The value of Rain goes down, if you get wastelanded, but it's not Rains job to help against Wasteland, but the duty of the increased landcount, which feed the Rains to overcome Daze and Spell Pierce in a symbiose later in the game while you are able to steer the impact and timing of Wasteland to some extent with your Fetchlands. Aggressive cantripping is a no-go against Wasteland of course, but Probe helps to make the right choices.

Cabal and Rain are both options for longer games, but getting to t.hold isn't quite easy, if you run Wishes instead of more cantrips like ANT and, on top of that, usually cut cantrips postboard for hate. If you don't get t.hold online by turn 4 or even later (thanks to DRS), like it happend to me several times in testing, you start to question the value of Cabal Rituals.

There's so many things wrong with this. Stability isn't defined by casting cantrips, the number was reduced from seven to six discard spells and it's barely noticeable. Not to mention, there's still Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor to be cast of it in the face of Wasteland. Also, my list does board in the Thoughtseize in some match-ups which would make the number seven again.

You can certainly complain about Bayou in the face of Wasteland when you're cutting a basic for it. Most hands only need one mana source to stick in an attempt to combo (by either dropping a dual/cracking a fetch), swamp does this very effectively. Also, you mention siding out cantrips to support Bayou but then use Swamp's not casting them against it - it doesn't make any sense. You cut Xantid, I find that a weakness in your argument.

It's not Rain's fault when you get Wastelanded, but you're adding in more Wasteland targets over mana sources that can't be destroyed (Chrome Mox/Swamp).

Have you ever actually tested Cabal Ritual? I mean, I've had it being Threshold on turn two numerous times, almost every game by turn three and even a few rare turn 1's before Ad Nauseam. It's considerably faster than waiting to build up 3-5 lands in the face of Wasteland. Cabal Ritual is way better in the mid-to-late game and has applications with other cards in our deck (PIF/Dark Petition).

[cdnza]

@Bryant, do you plan on writing anything regarding how and when to use Petition? Myself (and I assume many others) have not had a chance to test it yet and I'd love a bit of insight into how the card performs before I try to fit it into my list.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lemnear]

There's so many things wrong with this. Stability isn't defined by casting cantrips, the number was reduced from seven to six discard spells and it's barely noticeable. Not to mention, there's still Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor to be cast of it in the face of Wasteland. Also, my list does board in the Thoughtseize in some match-ups which would make the number seven again.

Do you board Thoughtseize against Wasteland decks like Tempo/Delver or Lands where opening with a Swamp makes a difference in terms of stability against Wasteland?

You can see it the other way: I actually replaced the Swamp with a Fetchland. Suddenly the whole argument of "stability against Wasteland" turns wack. I mean, you said it before as you mentioned that I "replaced a Mox with a Bayou", so gauging 8th Fech vs Swamp is the more accurate point I should have mentioned


You can certainly complain about Bayou in the face of Wasteland when you're cutting a basic for it. Most hands only need one mana source to stick in an attempt to combo (by either dropping a dual/cracking a fetch), swamp does this very effectively. Also, you mention siding out cantrips to support Bayou but then use Swamp's not casting them against it - it doesn't make any sense. You cut Xantid, I find that a weakness in your argument.

See above. Stick to the logic of "Swamp->Fetchland / Mox->Bayou". A Fetchland sticks in the face of Wasteland. Bayou > Mox against Daze. Win-win.

The point about cantripping was in context of running more blue sources overall (thanks to additional Fechland) compared to your manabase. I'm less likely to get stuck with a single non-blue land which, in case of the Swamp dös not help with Xantid or Decay in postboard games

I
t's not Rain's fault when you get Wastelanded, but you're adding in more Wasteland targets over mana sources that can't be destroyed (Chrome Mox/Swamp).

Yeah, 1 have 1 potential target more in my 60. That however doesn't mean I have to expose one more target per game against Wasteland per sé. The game against lands.dec was a perfect example for that theory working in a tournament. By running more lands I can also recover much better by running more lands than stuff like Chrome Mox, which I heared isn't quite amazing if your opponent is also running Chalice/Thorns/Trinisphere (looking at Lands/MUD/Painter/etc.)


Have you ever actually tested Cabal Ritual? I mean, I've had it being Threshold on turn two numerous times, almost every game by turn three and even a few rare turn 1's before Ad Nauseam. It's considerably faster than waiting to build up 3-5 lands in the face of Wasteland. Cabal Ritual is way better in the mid-to-late game and has applications with other cards in our deck (PIF/Dark Petition).

The last time you ran a 2/1 Splitt of Cabal Ritual/Mox (back with Gemstone Mines and the argument you can just keep tapping them to destroy them yourself to Get t.hold) you dismissed the option a while later because the Ad Nauseams were so bad (most likely linked to the t.hold issue and being unable to float mana) and even if I'm sure that running a fetch/Dual base improved the Cabals, I doubt it's THAT MUCH of a leap if cantrips remain our primary boarding slots. I hope you don't want to make a point based on hilarious T1 t.hold goldfishing.

What was changed that your previous issues with Cabal Ritual are now seem gone for you?

Of course I have toyed with the list before Lille and I wasn't impressed that Cabal Ritual did nothing to support my Position against Shardless or Delver variants which I felt was required. For me it wasn't appealing to ground my potentially long game against stuff like DRS or Daze on Chrome Mox/CabalRitual/PastInFlames rather than dropping lands and Tutor/cantrip-chain them out if the game. If I opt to drop lands and ignore DRS/Daze/Pierce, while minimizing damage of AN in general and aim on ramping up from a single black mana post-AN only, Rain is a much better card than Cabal Ritual.

[Bryant Cook]

Do you board Thoughtseize against Wasteland decks like Tempo/Delver or Lands where opening with a Swamp makes a difference in terms of stability against Wasteland?

You can see it the other way: I actually replaced the Swamp with a Fetchland. Suddenly the whole argument of "stability against Wasteland" turns wack. I mean, you said it before as you mentioned that I "replaced a Mox with a Bayou", so gauging 8th Fech vs Swamp is the more accurate point I should have mentioned

I do, I side in Thoughtseize against some mid-range hate bear decks, MUD and Lands. You're avoiding the real issue here in an attempt to act cute, a deck is a combination of parts. The two slots in question are what we're really talking about and not slot 59 vs slot 60. Mox & Swamp are both indestructible against Wasteland, Mox is better in the main deck as we're an Ad Nauseam centric deck. The impact of a Chrome Mox is considerably higher both pre and post Ad Nauseam compared to an off-color destructible Swamp.


See above. Stick to the logic of "Swamp->Fetchland / Mox->Bayou". A Fetchland sticks in the face of Wasteland. Bayou > Mox against Daze. Win-win.

The point about cantripping was in context of running more blue sources overall (thanks to additional Fechland) compared to your manabase. I'm less likely to get stuck with a single non-blue land which, in case of the Swamp dös not help with Xantid or Decay in postboard games

Being slower versus Thalia / Bayou doesn't provide an initial mana source post-Ad Nauseam, you "Lose-Lose". It's easy to throw out situations in a vacuum.

As I've stated, you don't even run Xantid anymore. You're just using it now as a crutch for a poor argument. You don't need multiple green mana sources in post-board games, especially at the cost of being worse against Wasteland.


Yeah, 1 have 1 potential target more in my 60. That however doesn't mean I have to expose one more target per game against Wasteland per sé. The game against lands.dec was a perfect example for that theory working in a tournament. By running more lands I can also recover much better by running more lands than stuff like Chrome Mox, which I heared isn't quite amazing if your opponent is also running Chalice/Thorns/Trinisphere (looking at Lands/MUD/Painter/etc.)

Chrome Mox is great against those decks, it means you can kill faster and more efficiently. You also don't lose games against Elves.


The last time you ran a 2/1 Splitt of Cabal Ritual/Mox (back with Gemstone Mines and the argument you can just keep tapping them to destroy them yourself to Get t.hold) you dismissed the option a while later because the Ad Nauseams were so bad (most likely linked to the t.hold issue and being unable to float mana) and even if I'm sure that running a fetch/Dual base improved the Cabals, I doubt it's THAT MUCH of a leap if cantrips remain our primary boarding slots. I hope you don't want to make a point based on hilarious T1 t.hold goldfishing.

What was changed that your previous issues with Cabal Ritual are now seem gone for you?

I've answered this multiple times now, the difference is the main deck Empty the Warrens. In previous attempts, the deck lacked Empty, where my current list there is no lack of speed.

As for Threshold, it's considerably easier due to the increased number of fetch lands.


Of course I have toyed with the list before Lille and I wasn't impressed that Cabal Ritual did nothing to support my Position against Shardless or Delver variants which I felt was required. For me it wasn't appealing to ground my potentially long game against stuff like DRS or Daze on Chrome Mox/CabalRitual/PastInFlames rather than dropping lands and Tutor/cantrip-chain them out if the game. If I opt to drop lands and ignore DRS/Daze/Pierce, while minimizing damage of AN in general and aim on ramping up from a single black mana post-AN only, Rain is a much better card than Cabal Ritual.

Shardless is a great match-up anyway, you shouldn't be trying to improve that. Not to mention Cabal Ritual is terrific in that match-up due to no soft-counters plus its amazing after their discard. Why are you trying to play a turn 4 combo deck? That's what doesn't make any sense to me. You might as well be playing Spiral Tide. Your views are definitely skewed on this one, I honestly believe it's from a lack of real testing and not wanting to acquire different foil fetchlands than Misty Rainforests.

[Lemnear]

I do, I side in Thoughtseize against some mid-range hate bear decks, MUD and Lands. You're avoiding the real issue here in an attempt to act cute, a deck is a combination of parts. The two slots in question are what we're really talking about and not slot 59 vs slot 60. Mox & Swamp are both indestructible against Wasteland, Mox is better in the main deck as we're an Ad Nauseam centric deck. The impact of a Chrome Mox is considerably higher both pre and post Ad Nauseam compared to an off-color destructible Swamp.

We're talking Mox vs. Land ... 1 card out of 60. You can't seriously keep pointing at improved Ad Nauseams, if you run a higher average cmc as I do and 4cc Sorceries to reveal to the 5cc Instant. Lets put it that way: If I would have flipped the Mox to th AN cast against Elves in game 2 it would have changed absolutely nothing at all (stranded at 5 mana instead of 4), but flipping EtW at any point would have made the situation much worse.


Being slower versus Thalia / Bayou doesn't provide an initial mana source post-Ad Nauseam, you "Lose-Lose". It's easy to throw out situations in a vacuum.

I have won my only match against Thalia.dec that weekend / Cabal Ritual is crap post-AN if you can't find/float a full two (initial) mana. If you want to stop with me talking situations and cards in a vacuum, I would prefer, if you would reciprocate the favor. Pointing at best case scenarios like your turn 1 t.hold for Cabal Ritual isn't getting us anywhere as well. Same is true for AN flips pointing to the sole Chrome Mox, but not to the 2cc Rituals and EtW.


As I've stated, you don't even run Xantid anymore. You're just using it now as a crutch for a poor argument. You don't need multiple green mana sources in post-board games, especially at the cost of being worse against Wasteland.

Haven't played since the GP and the GP list had three Xantids. The pure speculation about reducing/replacing Xantids isn't a fundament to dismiss SB options, if we discuss Bayou/Swamp. It's not about about multiple green sources, bu about maintaining a fetchable one even if your opponent can take out one ... but you know that already ;)


Chrome Mox is great against those decks, it means you can kill faster and more efficiently. You also don't lose games against Elves.

No need to play dirty here. I choose to not not die to 4cc flips of AN or to Delver beats, because I can't get around fucking Daze if I 2-for-1 myself just for 1 mana.


Shardless is a great match-up anyway, you shouldn't be trying to improve that. Not to mention Cabal Ritual is terrific in that match-up due to no soft-counters plus its amazing after their discard. Why are you trying to play a turn 4 combo deck? That's what doesn't make any sense to me. You might as well be playing Spiral Tide. Your views are definitely skewed on this one, I honestly believe it's from a lack of real testing and not wanting to acquire different foil fetchlands than Misty Rainforests.

Why am I playing suddenly a turn 4 combo deck, if I replace a Mox with a Bayou and run Rains instead of Cabal Rituals? Why is Cabal Ritual and Past In Flames any good against Deathrite Shaman? I would really apprechiate, if you would stop hyperboles or come up with hilarious stuff like financial aspects as a reason to not adapt to ideas or test them. I'm not the one of us who pimps his deck in japanese foil or clings to cards like Grapeshot

[Bryant Cook]

We're talking Mox vs. Land ... 1 card out of 60. You can't seriously keep pointing at improved Ad Nauseams, if you run a higher average cmc as I do and 4cc Sorceries to reveal to the 5cc Instant. Lets put it that way: If I would have flipped the Mox to th AN cast against Elves in game 2 it would have changed absolutely nothing at all (stranded at 5 mana instead of 4), but flipping EtW at any point would have made the situation much worse.

The average Ad Nauseam draws anywhere between 15-25 cards, are you saying that seeing anywhere between 25% to 50% of your deck and not having an initial mana source afterwards isn't relevant? I've mentioned before that I run the Empty to be faster, it's not a great reveal off of Ad Nauseam. However, if Ad Nauseam has resolved, you're already in a good spot.


I have won my only match against Thalia.dec that weekend / Cabal Ritual is crap post-AN if you can't find/float a full two (initial) mana. If you want to stop with me talking situations and cards in a vacuum, I would prefer, if you would reciprocate the favor. Pointing at best case scenarios like your turn 1 t.hold for Cabal Ritual isn't getting us anywhere as well. Same is true for AN flips pointing to the sole Chrome Mox, but not to the 2cc Rituals and EtW.

Cabal Ritual is actually decent post-Ad Nauseam as you have guaranteed Threshold and can be cast off a sole mana source if you've cast Dark Ritual which is fairly likely. I mentioned the turn one Threshold once (I've achieved it more times than it's been mentioned), you're the only one dwelling on it. As I stated above, with the percentages, Chrome Mox vs Bayou is very relevant when talking post-Ad Nauseam.


No need to play dirty here. I choose to not not die to 4cc flips of AN or to Delver beats, because I can't get around fucking Daze if I 2-for-1 myself just for 1 mana.

Then Brainstorm it away or take the one time 2-for-1, it's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. The card is very similar to Tendrils of Agony, where you never want it in your opening hand but you're always please to see it post-Ad Nauseam. There's a reason it's run in few copies.


Why am I playing suddenly a turn 4 combo deck, if I replace a Mox with a Bayou and run Rains instead of Cabal Rituals? Why is Cabal Ritual and Past In Flames any good against Deathrite Shaman? I would really apprechiate, if you would stop hyperboles or come up with hilarious stuff like financial aspects as a reason to not adapt to ideas or test them. I'm not the one of us who pimps his deck in japanese foil or clings to cards like Grapeshot

Because additional lands and Rain of Filth are slow – that's why. I didn't say Cabal Ritual was great against Deathrite Shaman, I said the card was good against Shardless (and it is), Deathrite is only a card a turn and the deck is capable of putting more in the graveyard than that. Even if it isn't, the one mana alone is still fine.

As for the Misty comment, I honestly believe it to be true. I do pimp my decks, but I don't let it influence me from playing the proper cards (Look at Grapeshot for example, am I "clinging to it"? - it's not in my 75), if it was right to be playing Mistys I would be sliding those Japanese Foils in right with the others!

[LDX]

Bryant, I took a glimpse read on the new sideboard changes and noticed the changes on Burn. +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor, -4 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Duress. Some questions:

1a) Are the Abrupt Decay only for creature removal, or do you expect a shift and Burn playing Trinisphere/Chalice/etc. ?
1b) In case of creature removal only, if you had a Grapeshot or a Pyroclasm in your sideboard, would you board it instead of an Abrupt Decay?
2) Why both CoV, but no Void Snare?
3) Why Duress over Ponder?

Thank you!

[Lemnear]

Bryant, I took a glimpse read on the new sideboard changes and noticed the changes on Burn. +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor, -4 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Duress. Some questions:

1a) Are the Abrupt Decay only for creature removal, or do you expect a shift and Burn playing Trinisphere/Chalice/etc. ?
1b) In case of creature removal only, if you had a Grapeshot or a Pyroclasm in your sideboard, would you board it instead of an Abrupt Decay?
2) Why both CoV, but no Void Snare?
3) Why Duress over Ponder?

Thank you!

Pyrostatic Pillar ;)

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant, I took a glimpse read on the new sideboard changes and noticed the changes on Burn. +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor, -4 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Duress. Some questions:

1a) Are the Abrupt Decay only for creature removal, or do you expect a shift and Burn playing Trinisphere/Chalice/etc. ?
1b) In case of creature removal only, if you had a Grapeshot or a Pyroclasm in your sideboard, would you board it instead of an Abrupt Decay?
2) Why both CoV, but no Void Snare?
3) Why Duress over Ponder?

Thank you!

1a.) Creature removal for Eidolon. I've seen rare actual Pyrostatic Pillars, but mostly they side in Mind Break Trap.
1b.) I would side those in over an Abrupt Decay, but I would still want enough sufficient answers.
2.) Need to keep something that's wish-able to answer Eidolon.
3.) Ponder helps you dig for Decay/Chain in this match-up and helps your ability to be consistent in a shootout.

[Pelikanudo]

Related to the new TES Base of Bryant:

I have to say that sure we all really hate C.Mox - but I don't see any reason to run just 1 C.Mox - is it becasue it is a bad card? sure it is a bad card however this provides:
- being faster
- Better post Ad Nauseam

Even I have to say that now the unique difference from this archetype and TNT (Timo Shuneman list) is just 2 Cabal rituals less 4 RoF which are far inferior to C.R. and 1 EtW less - if you compare now the new TES archetype vs TNT it seems that TNT is much more compacted as a deck which has a real goal - I mean - with TNT you can now B.W. -> D.Petition -> PiF from Main much more often than before now you have D.P.

I'm not sure which is the derection TES is taking.
The only question I have is:
Old TES with 3 C.Moxen is faster than the New TES from Bryant?

I really do not see reasons why TES is changing so much - I only now see this deck as a TNT version with a worse Late game... I'm a bit sad about all these changes...
Don't you remember when TES played 4 C.Moxen?
Long time ago when Mystical Tutor was unbanned, the 4th I.F. was in side - and still 3 C.Moxen as minimum were played - why the hell such a change to just play D.P.?

[Lemnear]

For a second I really wanted to make a useful post, but then remembered that this would require to go all over the interactions of RoF+Wish, Fetchlands+CabalRitual, CabalRitual+DarkPetition, changing metagames and relative speed of cards outside of a vacuum, so I decided to not explain all that again.

I kept doing this for a year now and decided to stop.

The ChromeMox+DarkPetition topic lately and the endless Odyssee of Rainbow Lands are really discouraging for me.

[Bryant Cook]

For a second I really wanted to make a useful post, but then remembered that this would require to go all over the interactions of RoF+Wish, Fetchlands+CabalRitual, CabalRitual+DarkPetition, changing metagames and relative speed of cards outside of a vacuum, so I decided to not explain all that again.

I kept doing this for a year now and decided to stop.

The ChromeMox+DarkPetition topic lately and the endless Odyssee of Rainbow Lands are really discouraging for me.

Good, good, let the hate flow through you.

[Dice_Box]

If I remember right, when Mystical was still legal you could Wish for exited cards. Mox was a very different beast then. I don't think it's a just thread to follow, taking about that far back and such a different meta.

Love the website.

[Asthereal]

Good, good, let the hate flow through you.
This made my -otherwise shitty- day. :laugh:

[Final Fortune]

After playing TnT with Dark Petition and Lemnear's TES, I'm starting to agree cutting Empty the Warrens and Chrome Mox just makes TES into a worse version of that deck - I've had a lot of really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2 with Ad Nauseam or race with Goblins.

I also don't think Dark Petition is really worth it, it's worse than Infernal Tutor because you can't play around soft counters with it, you can't SB it in vs aggro and you frankly don't want to draw multiple Infernal Tutors compared to multiple Burning Wish in any match. I think the card is probably going to have a bigger impact in TnT for the 2 Burning Wish than it is going to have in TES, where even tho' I found it serviceable it's still awkward to the point where I'd rather just have my 3rd Duress back.

[Lemnear]

After playing TnT with Dark Petition and Lemnear's TES, I'm starting to agree cutting Empty the Warrens and Chrome Mox just makes TES into a worse version of that deck - I've had a lot of really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2 with Ad Nauseam or race with Goblins.

I also don't think Dark Petition is really worth it, it's worse than Infernal Tutor because you can't play around soft counters with it, you can't SB it in vs aggro and you frankly don't want to draw multiple Infernal Tutors compared to multiple Burning Wish in any match. I think the card is probably going to have a bigger impact in TnT for the 2 Burning Wish than it is going to have in TES, where even tho' I found it serviceable it's still awkward to the point where I'd rather just have my 3rd Duress back.

I have two questions: "Worse version" against D&T in comparison to which version? 2/1 Cabal/Mox or the 3 Mox one? Do you think its any fair to gauge the build simply how it fares against a single deck which has 2% metagame represenation (http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE) rather than against the 70%+ blue decks it was tuned for and call it "bad" simply because of that?

Let me put it that way: If all you care for are the T1 combos, you should play Belcher, because TES is "a worse version of that deck" and you evade the "really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2"


Edit: Just in case some peeps still not figured out why I'm so pissed, let me state that its simply because no one bothers to evaluate the changes made in context of the actual metagame ( which can be wrong, unnecessary, helpful , etc. which time would tell), but keeps pointing to a fawking single fringe matchup which I'm intentionally gave away a few percentages. No, i have to correct myself, as the question wasn't if and how the build beats D&T, but simply if the deck can combo before your opponent had their turn 2. No one is looking at my significant plus of lands/CoV/Decay and asks how that works against Chalice/Thorn/Daze/Wasteland/etc. even if I covered how that core beat double chalice in a GP. Irrelevant for some people as the deck is simply evaluated based on the ability to combo T1 (as the build with Rain goes off turn 2 regulary) and following that simple, shallow logic means that TES a worse deck than Belcher and Brainstorm is a bad card because it does not help to combo turn 1 either /rant

[Final Fortune]

I have two questions: "Worse version" against D&T in comparison to which version? 2/1 Cabal/Mox or the 3 Mox one? Do you think its any fair to gauge the build simply how it fares against a single deck which has 2% metagame represenation (http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE) rather than against the 70%+ blue decks it was tuned for and call it "bad" simply because of that?

Let me put it that way: If all you care for are the T1 combos, you should play Belcher, because TES is "a worse version of that deck" and you evade the "really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2"


Edit: Just in case some peeps still not figured out why I'm so pissed, let me state that its simply because no one bothers to evaluate the changes made in context of the actual metagame ( which can be wrong, unnecessary, helpful , etc. which time would tell), but keeps pointing to a fawking single fringe matchup which I'm intentionally gave away a few percentages. No, i have to correct myself, as the question wasn't if and how the build beats D&T, but simply if the deck can combo before your opponent had their turn 2. No one is looking at my significant plus of lands/CoV/Decay and asks how that works against Chalice/Thorn/Daze/Wasteland/etc. even if I covered how that core beat double chalice in a GP. Irrelevant for some people as the deck is simply evaluated based on the ability to combo T1 (as the build with Rain goes off turn 2 regulary) and following that simple, shallow logic means that TES a worse deck than Belcher and Brainstorm is a bad card because it does not help to combo turn 1 either /rant

You have a really serious problem in thinking everything you do, no matter how speculative, is the next evolution of TES as opposed to having any objectivity for different player experiences with varrying deck lists and then have the fucking audacity to straw man the whole thread with ridiculous comparisons? I'm not even going to bother addressing your insipidly stupid comments regarding TES being a worse Belcher, but your deck is a WORSE TnT and I actually bothered to test both vs prison decks in order to figure out what the difference in the fundamental turn was from TES and it's pretty damn significant.

When I went to cut Xantid Swarm and Chain of Vapour in order to play other cards in the aggro-control match up, all of a sudden D&T was the boogie man that would get me for not SBing bounce. But as soon as I started testing the speed of your deck in order to see how often I had to wait until T3 to go off, all of a sudden it's only 2% of the metagame now like RUG was 2% of the metagame then? Man, those numbers are really convenient any time you need to pull them out of your ass ... Sorry, but I really don't see the point in slowing the deck down only to have worse rituals than Cabal Rituals, and that includes both Rite of Flame and Rain of Filth. If you're going to play a Storm deck mainly metagamed vs Island.dec, then I'm not really sure TES is the best shell to do that as having the speed to race discard on the play, hate bears on the draw etc. while still having a middle game is kind of the entire appeal of the deck. What makes your deck really any better than ANT.TnT if that's all you are trying to achieve? I just found myself being slower overall compared to TES and having to gamble on Ad Nauseams with no Chrome Mox to offset low life totals compared to going for the Past/Tendril kill.

Get over yourself, the deck has obvious problems and the benefits over the alternatives aren't very clear.

Edit: And I don't give a shit about the link you posted either, the point of the matter is regardless of the representation you make an issue out of it at your convenience.

[Pelikanudo]

After reading Bryant and Lemnear (overall Bryant comments - I love you a lot you Lemnear!!) comments I just thought in not posting for a while.... These are absolutly non constructive answers or comments.

You can not imagine Bryant how your ideas seem irrelevant to me - even I recognize you as the creator of the deck , along the time TES evolutioned, and a lot of your ideas have been contradictories and sometimes even they promoted among the comunity the not raising of new ones (I rememer Bahamut EtW or G.P. main idea much before anybody even occurred... You are the best, boy!!! As example)

I will just throw 2 question:
When the meta changed to blue.deck , Did TES change to 1 or 0 C.M? The answer is no.
Will D.P. change TES to just play 1 or 0 C.M.? My hope is it will not.

Final Fortune I love you the most - your english express absolutly my thoughts.

[Dr_D]

Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.

Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.

[wonderPreaux]

Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.

Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.
I have an article that discusses this coming soon

[Tom T]

Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.

Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.

Ok, so I'll take the challenge to compare the two decks and list strengths and weaknesses of each deck. In the end I'll make some notes when one would be theoretically better than the other. I know this is a hated and frequently addressed topic and if someone doesn't agree that's fine by me. I left out one big personal 'pro' for TES; more fun and challenging.

TES:
Pro's:
- TES is a turn1 or 2 deck on average. This means that your opponent is usually limited to his first 7-10 cards drawn/seen which is a big difference with ANT. That also gives TES another (better) angle of attack against 2cc permanent-based hate. This is the biggest USP of TES in my oppinion.
- TES' game-winning lines are less conditional than ANT's game-winning lines; an Ad Nauseam line costs 7 mana and an ETW line costs 6. In ANT Ad Nauseam with 0 floating is often really risky and a PiF-line usually needs 7 mana, multiple rituals and often threshold.
- Due to Chrome Mox instead of lands and RoF instead of CR, a bigger ETW in the first or second turn is more likely to happen with TES than with ANT.
- LED has more affinity with TES than with ANT (due to rituals being a necessity for PiF-lines and Ad Nauseam not caring about that before resolving)
- TES can (pretty) reliably win with Ad Nauseam from >12 life.
- TES has maindeck answers to hatebears.
- TES is (usually) immune to graveyard hate (ergo doesn't mind DRS).
- TES has the option to play Silence/Orim's Chant should the metagame demand that.
- In this deck, Burning Wish (usually) does what you want a business spell to do. This makes it better than ANT's Grim Tutor, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, extra Past in Flames. In-hand Burning Wish is also better than in-hand ToA in the early game
- TES can play Flooded Strands and Misty Rainforest to telegraph deceiving information.
- Opponents tend to play worse against TES than ANT due to inexperience (this is my personal experience though). For instance, side boarding graveyard hate.

Con's:
- TES is not mulligan friendly
- and TES can have 'challenging' opening hands; DR+LED+Fetch+BW / Too many cantrips / Chrome Mox as only manasource / T1 'boom or bust' hands. Experience mitigates these first two cons a lot, so don't blame it when you're a newby with the deck. However, it isn't to be overlooked.
- TES is sometimes bound to choose one route; EtW tokens or AN. This can result in awkward moments depending on your opponents deck/hand/boardstate.
- TES is sometimes bound to just go for it without full knowledge of possible disruptive elements.
- TES plays Chrome Mox
- TES should consider soft counterspells more than ANT
- TES has little space in it's sideboard left due to the wishboard
- TES has a harder time casting Abrupt Decay than ANT does

ANT:
Pro's:
- ANT's more mulligan-friendly than TES
- ANT's better against Wasteland
- ANT's better against soft counterspells (Daze/ Spell pierce)
- ANT's better against opposing discard
- ANT has more game against Discard+Counterspells, Counterspells+Hatebear or Discard+Hatebear
- ANT's main win-condition is life-independent
- ANT has more free space in the sideboard
- ANT is essentially a 2-color deck
- ANT has more flex-slots maindeck
- ANT can cast Abrupt Decay more reliable
- ANT has more game against Chalice@1 on board

Con's:
- ANT is a full turn slower than TES
- ANT's main win-condition is impaired by graveyard hate (the extent is dependant per in-game situation)
- ANT usually plays just one win-card in the deck (1 ToA)
- Ad Nauseam (if played) is way riskier in ANT. Also, ANT's game-winning lines without using the graveyard are more conditional.
- ANT doesn't have a matching equivalent to TES' Burning Wish and has to choose for worse business-spells or playing more supportive spells.


In conclusion:
TES is better against a metagame containing fast decks, for instance; Elves, Death 'n Taxes, Dredge, Reanimator (depending on SB).
ANT is better against a metagame infested by Daze, Spell Pierce, Wasteland and multiple angles of opposing hate.

It must be said that experience often trumps above con's.

As it's possible I've forgotten a couple of things I'll update this post if someone has something to add. But for now, let the hate arise lol.


~Tom

[Izor]

I think this list of pros and cons is pretty useful for people who have trouble deciding which list to play.

I've personally tested all versions of Storm and I go back and forth between them, though up to date my favorite list is a hybrid list between ANT and TES, something similar to TNT. I prefer TES over ANT and Grinding Station, but at the same time I feel like having access to the 4 Cabal Ritual+PiF+ToA package main, so that's how I arrived at my list.

[cdnza]

@Tom T I think your post is very well considered and I think it's going to be really valuable to a lot of newcomers to storm - perhaps Bryant should consider even putting a version of it on his site :)

I'm just a lurker so my opinions are probably not particularly valuable, but I respect both Bryant's and Lemnear's experience playing storm so I've personally gained a lot of interesting insight from their argument. I personally am still playing Chrome Mox and no Cabal Ritual in my "TES" list, and I think that part of the problem when considering these different builds is creating this "ANT vs TES" dichotomy - the decks are so similar that I don't think it always creates value to talk about them as completely different things. Isn't it possible we could build a hybrid list with the power of Burning Wish but also the long game potential of multiple "natural" combo routes?

I am going to play Legacy in Berkeley tomorrow and I have both "ANT" (UBr, 2tendrils 2pif 1etw 0an) and "TES" (UBR, 4rof 4bw 0tendrils 1etw 1an) built - as Tom very succinctly described in his post, I'm going to choose my list according to the decks I see around the room.

[Lemnear]

I will just throw 2 question:
When the meta changed to blue.deck , Did TES change to 1 or 0 C.M? The answer is no.
Will D.P. change TES to just play 1 or 0 C.M.? My hope is it will not.

Given Legacy was EVER 50%+ blue decks, so I have usually a bit of a problem with drawing a line somewhere between that and the 71% we have at the moment (according to MTGtop8) and the 83% we had at some point. The question however is how many of the non-blue decks you will see at the top tables and that was a lot different at a certain point in history like when Survival was on top, when Maverick was a top deck, Alara hit the stores, etc.

Printings like Enter The Infinite, Griselbrand, Omniscience, TNN, SFM, Treasure Cruise, Delver, Dig Through Time, etc. all shaped the metagame over time, but the downfall of pure aggro with Delver/SFM/TNN marks a personal cornerstone and the deck did also change over time. Just look at the landcount, which was increased over years from 11 to 13; the sideboard changed; the MB protection changed; we reduced the Moxen from 4 to 3 to 2 and increased them to 3 again; etc.

I don't see a reason you make such big waves once the Mox-count was reduced again.


Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.

Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.


@Tom T I think your post is very well considered and I think it's going to be really valuable to a lot of newcomers to storm - perhaps Bryant should consider even putting a version of it on his site :)

I'm just a lurker so my opinions are probably not particularly valuable, but I respect both Bryant's and Lemnear's experience playing storm so I've personally gained a lot of interesting insight from their argument. I personally am still playing Chrome Mox and no Cabal Ritual in my "TES" list, and I think that part of the problem when considering these different builds is creating this "ANT vs TES" dichotomy - the decks are so similar that I don't think it always creates value to talk about them as completely different things. Isn't it possible we could build a hybrid list with the power of Burning Wish but also the long game potential of multiple "natural" combo routes?

I am going to play Legacy in Berkeley tomorrow and I have both "ANT" (UBr, 2tendrils 2pif 1etw 0an) and "TES" (UBR, 4rof 4bw 0tendrils 1etw 1an) built - as Tom very succinctly described in his post, I'm going to choose my list according to the decks I see around the room.

I think the distinction of storm subypes (ANT, TES, TNT) is hilariously overrated and stupid and there was an outcry that we "turned into ANT" when we decided to move away from City of Brass and Silence, ergo I'm not impressed the slightest to hear the same again in this thread when we reduce the Moxen further for more Rituals. What is new to me, is that the fuss made about 0 Moxen compared to 1 Mox left is so big.

Essentially you tune your storm deck for an expected meta and you have two extreme cornercases to build your deck. One is fragile, explosive and full of variance; the other is slow, but stable. My pendelum swings depending on how the metagame looks like and I opted to build such a hybrid which can combo turn 1/2/3 but is also able to grind out games against. It's that simple. Bryant has a build currently with that goal in mind, like I have mine. Our choices are slightly different, but the idea is the same for this metagame. Don't be distracted by the tone ;)


Ok, so I'll take the challenge to compare the two decks and list strengths and weaknesses of each deck. In the end I'll make some notes when one would be theoretically better than the other. I know this is a hated and frequently addressed topic and if someone doesn't agree that's fine by me. I left out one big personal 'pro' for TES; more fun and challenging.

TES:
Pro's:
- TES is a turn1 or 2 deck on average. This means that your opponent is usually limited to his first 7-10 cards drawn/seen which is a big difference with ANT. That also gives TES another (better) angle of attack against 2cc permanent-based hate. This is the biggest USP of TES in my oppinion.
- TES' game-winning lines are less conditional than ANT's game-winning lines; an Ad Nauseam line costs 7 mana and an ETW line costs 6. In ANT Ad Nauseam with 0 floating is often really risky and a PiF-line usually needs 7 mana, multiple rituals and often threshold.
- Due to Chrome Mox instead of lands and RoF instead of CR, a bigger ETW in the first or second turn is more likely to happen with TES than with ANT.
- LED has more affinity with TES than with ANT (due to rituals being a necessity for PiF-lines and Ad Nauseam not caring about that before resolving)
- TES can (pretty) reliably win with Ad Nauseam from >12 life.
- TES has maindeck answers to hatebears.
- TES is (usually) immune to graveyard hate (ergo doesn't mind DRS).
- TES has the option to play Silence/Orim's Chant should the metagame demand that.
- In this deck, Burning Wish (usually) does what you want a business spell to do. This makes it better than ANT's Grim Tutor, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, extra Past in Flames. In-hand Burning Wish is also better than in-hand ToA in the early game
- TES can play Flooded Strands and Misty Rainforest to telegraph deceiving information.
- Opponents tend to play worse against TES than ANT due to inexperience (this is my personal experience though). For instance, side boarding graveyard hate.

Con's:
- TES is not mulligan friendly
- and TES can have 'challenging' opening hands; DR+LED+Fetch+BW / Too many cantrips / Chrome Mox as only manasource / T1 'boom or bust' hands. Experience mitigates these first two cons a lot, so don't blame it when you're a newby with the deck. However, it isn't to be overlooked.
- TES is sometimes bound to choose one route; EtW tokens or AN. This can result in awkward moments depending on your opponents deck/hand/boardstate.
- TES is sometimes bound to just go for it without full knowledge of possible disruptive elements.
- TES plays Chrome Mox
- TES should consider soft counterspells more than ANT
- TES has little space in it's sideboard left due to the wishboard
- TES has a harder time casting Abrupt Decay than ANT does

ANT:
Pro's:
- ANT's more mulligan-friendly than TES
- ANT's better against Wasteland
- ANT's better against soft counterspells (Daze/ Spell pierce)
- ANT's better against opposing discard
- ANT has more game against Discard+Counterspells, Counterspells+Hatebear or Discard+Hatebear
- ANT's main win-condition is life-independent
- ANT has more free space in the sideboard
- ANT is essentially a 2-color deck
- ANT has more flex-slots maindeck
- ANT can cast Abrupt Decay more reliable
- ANT has more game against Chalice@1 on board

Con's:
- ANT is a full turn slower than TES
- ANT's main win-condition is impaired by graveyard hate (the extent is dependant per in-game situation)
- ANT usually plays just one win-card in the deck (1 ToA)
- Ad Nauseam (if played) is way riskier in ANT. Also, ANT's game-winning lines without using the graveyard are more conditional.
- ANT doesn't have a matching equivalent to TES' Burning Wish and has to choose for worse business-spells or playing more supportive spells.


In conclusion:
TES is better against a metagame containing fast decks, for instance; Elves, Death 'n Taxes, Dredge, Reanimator (depending on SB).
ANT is better against a metagame infested by Daze, Spell Pierce, Wasteland and multiple angles of opposing hate.

It must be said that experience often trumps above con's.

As it's possible I've forgotten a couple of things I'll update this post if someone has something to add. But for now, let the hate arise lol.


~Tom

I like this one, even if it draws a clear line, where I don't necessarily see one between storm subtypes. It however grasps the two cornercases you have to look at and question yourself how to build the deck according to the metagame. Dredge/Elves/D&T don't make even close to 10% of the metagame. I drew a conclusion.


I have an article that discusses this coming soon

Looking forward

[Bryant Cook]

TES:
Pro's:
- TES can play Flooded Strands and Misty Rainforest to telegraph deceiving information.

Con's:
- TES is not mulligan friendly
- and TES can have 'challenging' opening hands; DR+LED+Fetch+BW / Too many cantrips / Chrome Mox as only manasource / T1 'boom or bust' hands. Experience mitigates these first two cons a lot, so don't blame it when you're a newby with the deck. However, it isn't to be overlooked.
- TES is sometimes bound to choose one route; EtW tokens or AN. This can result in awkward moments depending on your opponents deck/hand/boardstate.
- TES is sometimes bound to just go for it without full knowledge of possible disruptive elements.
- TES plays Chrome Mox
- TES should consider soft counterspells more than ANT
- TES has a harder time casting Abrupt Decay than ANT does

ANT:
Pro's:
- ANT's better against Wasteland
- ANT's better against opposing discard
- ANT has more game against Discard+Counterspells, Counterspells+Hatebear or Discard+Hatebear
- ANT is essentially a 2-color deck
- ANT has more flex-slots maindeck




1.) Not true.
2.) ANT has difficult opening hands as well (especially hands that are difficult to cast Past in Flames). TES having too many cantrips? This is definitely an ANT issue.
3.) I believe ANT has the same issues with Ad Nauseam/Past in Flames.
4.) No more than ANT, we play the same amount of peek effects. Except that TES gets Wish for Seize.
5.) Currently only playing one and it's not nearly as bad as people make it seem.
6.) I think they're essentially the same here.
7.) This is absolutely wrong.
8.) TES has a basic too ;-p
9.) TES I believe is better due to a higher threat density.
10.) I disagree on all 3 accounts, especially the hatebear aspect. TES is WAY better than against hatebears.
11.) It's more of a 2.5 color deck (due to PIF) where TES is 3, I think the difference here is actually very small.
12.) Due to not having a very high threat density, unlike TES!

[G_g]

Took the list to my 2nd ever Legacy event, the first with storm (last one was a year ago, with junk and borrowed duals).

Made top 4, lost to the same guy in swiss and top, he was playing Bug control.

Force of will, daze, spell pierce, cabal therapy and hymn to tourach... In the 5 games, the one where he didn't have Hymn was an easy win. I followed the SB guide, but I do believe carpet would have been very good. Two of the games I lost were due to graffdiggers cage, since I could wish, but never could get enough storm to kill him, since graffdiggers shuts down PiF lines. I have never played with it, but I think Ill Gotten gains would have done some work. It also kinda works like a mind twist in the early game.
Another player who sometimes plays storm, mentioned he always liked a singleton time spiral in the sideboard. I saw one scenario where it would have very likely won the game. I do understand the reasoning for it not to be run.
I think I punted a game when I was going all in t2 (before hymn), since I had seen his hand with therapy, naming force, which he discarded. He top decks ponder and casts it. I didn't know one card. He shuffled with ponder, but the card he drew after shuffling was a force... My bad I guess, I played the percentages and decided to go for it.

Fizzled an ad nauseum from 19 life in one game...

4-1 into top 8, win against elves, then lose to bug control. (In swiss beat Maverick, Punishing Jund, Rug delver, bug delver/team america, lost to Bug control)

A few packs, open the merfolk and new chandra and some duds, enough to pay for the entry and a few sideboard cards I needed to buy.

Not sold on Dark Petition... Every time I play the deck I kinda want an ad nauseum in the side, which would enable easier lines on 7 mana. Yes, if I get to nine mana I can burning wish for Dark petition to find ad nauseum, which would add a storm and not risking the 5 dmg if I hit the Maindeck ad nauseum. I guess it's due to inexperience, but there are just my thoughts.

I do need to play more, felt my games were heavily destroyed by hymn to tourach. I never had a Brainstorm to hide cards, unfortunately. From what I have seen from vids, I do try to end the games way faster than other players. Maybe I just kinda jump the gun and don't stay patient, but I think waiting is just giving opponents time to find answers.

I often made 12-16 goblins and went to town attacking. Bug control stabilized in one game at 2 life with deathrite and 2 goyfs blocking, me with 3 goblins. I have 5 lands and 2 LED in play, infernal tutor for burning wish. He has a single card in hand, dig through times, finds force + blue card. Next turn I would just tendrils with no storm for the kill.

If I was to play again today, I'd cut the Dark Petition for an ad nauseum. It might seem like a clutch having one main, one side, but for me it would enable much easier ad nauseum.

[MattC]

Not sold on Dark Petition... Every time I play the deck I kinda want an ad nauseum in the side, which would enable easier lines on 7 mana. Yes, if I get to nine mana I can burning wish for Dark petition to find ad nauseum, which would add a storm and not risking the 5 dmg if I hit the Maindeck ad nauseum. I guess it's due to inexperience, but there are just my thoughts.

If I was to play again today, I'd cut the Dark Petition for an ad nauseum. It might seem like a clutch having one main, one side, but for me it would enable much easier ad nauseum.

Congrats on the Top 4!

How does having an extra Ad Nauseam in the sideboard do anything? It's an instant so you can't wish for it and I can't imagine ever wanting to board into a second copy.

[G_g]

It's an instant, I'm an idiot.

Quick question. You can go for ad nauseum at 18 life, with 1 mana floating, you get to pick the color. You have already made your land drop, used 1 petal, 1 LED, 1 dark ritual and one rite of flame. I went with black, and never found the red to burning wish for tendrils.

I do understand there is a pretty big cost to run tendrils main and I do like going for 12+ goblins, but seems possible. Another thing is a random foil I love the art, which has been so useful in my store Cube: Manaforge cinder. Obviously, it has no room in this deck, but the damn thing can fix mana colors, if that ever becomes an issue.
I'm not a brewer, but red doesn't seem mandatory in storm, now that we have Dark petition. The deck would not be the same, but I can see a deck running 4 infernal tutor and 4 dark petition with tendrils main being possible.

[Tom T]

It's an instant, I'm an idiot.

Quick question. You can go for ad nauseum at 18 life, with 1 mana floating, you get to pick the color. You have already made your land drop, used 1 petal, 1 LED, 1 dark ritual and one rite of flame. I went with black, and never found the red to burning wish for tendrils.


If you can have 1 mana floating I'd pick red most of the time, because; 1. burning wish into tendrils is cheaper than infernal->wish->tendrils (which also needs LED most of the time) so red is more important and 2. red is also more important to cast EtW if your Ad Nauseam gives you crappy flips.

So, most of the time its; R>B>U.
But experience is key and eventually you should know when to pick what color depending on the situation/outs.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

After reading Bryant and Lemnear (overall Bryant comments - I love you a lot you Lemnear!!) comments I just thought in not posting for a while.... These are absolutly non constructive answers or comments.

You can not imagine Bryant how your ideas seem irrelevant to me - even I recognize you as the creator of the deck , along the time TES evolutioned, and a lot of your ideas have been contradictories and sometimes even they promoted among the comunity the not raising of new ones (I rememer Bahamut EtW or G.P. main idea much before anybody even occurred... You are the best, boy!!! As example)

I will just throw 2 question:
When the meta changed to blue.deck , Did TES change to 1 or 0 C.M? The answer is no.
Will D.P. change TES to just play 1 or 0 C.M.? My hope is it will not.

Final Fortune I love you the most - your english express absolutly my thoughts.

I'll take Bryant's word on this deck over anybody. He has had the most success, and has been tweaking and trying to perfect the deck for so long, we shouldn't take anything he says with a grain of salt imo

[Patrunkenphat7]

I'll take Bryant's word on this deck over anybody. He has had the most success, and has been tweaking and trying to perfect the deck for so long, we shouldn't take anything he says with a grain of salt imo

You should take what EVERYONE says about Legacy decks with a grain of salt. This is a very complex game, and I think most players put too much faith in a select few people to make decklist decisions for them.

That being said, both Lemnear and Cook have a ton of experience with this deck, so I trust they are both on the right track with this strategy and would have to test to see who is right on specific card choices.

The larger issue is that TES continues to not have great results over the past couple years, so instead of looking towards which individuals you guys should listen to regarding this archetype, maybe it's time for some outside-the-box innovation.

[Lemnear]

It's an instant, I'm an idiot.

Quick question. You can go for ad nauseum at 18 life, with 1 mana floating, you get to pick the color. You have already made your land drop, used 1 petal, 1 LED, 1 dark ritual and one rite of flame. I went with black, and never found the red to burning wish for tendrils.

I do understand there is a pretty big cost to run tendrils main and I do like going for 12+ goblins, but seems possible. Another thing is a random foil I love the art, which has been so useful in my store Cube: Manaforge cinder. Obviously, it has no room in this deck, but the damn thing can fix mana colors, if that ever becomes an issue.
I'm not a brewer, but red doesn't seem mandatory in storm, now that we have Dark petition. The deck would not be the same, but I can see a deck running 4 infernal tutor and 4 dark petition with tendrils main being possible.


If you can have 1 mana floating I'd pick red most of the time, because; 1. burning wish into tendrils is cheaper than infernal->wish->tendrils (which also needs LED most of the time) so red is more important and 2. red is also more important to cast EtW if your Ad Nauseam gives you crappy flips.

So, most of the time its; R>B>U.
But experience is key and eventually you should know when to pick what color depending on the situation/outs.

Tom is absolutely right. You need to have a very good reason for picking black mana here like already 3 Rites and two Wishes in the yard/exiled and 3+ LEDs/Rituals in the deck left to estimate that going with black mana and 8 mana playlines wields better results than the 6 mana line via red mana


I'll take Bryant's word on this deck over anybody. He has had the most success, and has been tweaking and trying to perfect the deck for so long, we shouldn't take anything he says with a grain of salt imo

I beg to pardon. Cutting white and Silence, removing all Rainbow lands, running 4 Cabal Therapy, MB EtW, running Probes etc. are all suggestions made by other users and shaped the deck to this date. Its a community work result.


You should take what EVERYONE says about Legacy decks with a grain of salt. This is a very complex game, and I think most players put too much faith in a select few people to make decklist decisions for them.

Isn't that the same case in like every thread here, Wilson? People look at Marc for D&T, Julian for Elves, Kai for ANT (including the SDT trolling), Philip for Miracles and round up their deck choices by looking at Top 8 results. The mechanics for deck choice and evolution of archetypes are sometimes hilariously basic. You can bet, that this frustrates me a lot.

You can look at the Elves thread and an see what happens to it and the deck evolution if the vocal leaders leave as an extreme example.


That being said, both Lemnear and Cook have a ton of experience with this deck, so I trust they are both on the right track with this strategy and would have to test to see who is right on specific card choices.

The fundamental problem is, that there is maybe a good sense for what the decks needs in certain metagame structures, but the feedback and reflection of ideas and choices by the community isn't as analytical as I personally wish it was, which leads to the previous verbal fallout over the topic of reducing the number of Moxen.


The larger issue is that TES continues to not have great results over the past couple years, so instead of looking towards which individuals you guys should listen to regarding this archetype, maybe it's time for some outside-the-box innovation.

TES had three win in tournaments with 100+ players within the last year (Belgian Legacy Cup Finals '14, SCG Premier IQ Dallas-Fort Worth, Tarmogeddon 10) from which I know and probably a lot more in medium sized ones and MTGO Dailies, but its a pain to look through those datas thanks to the constant mislabeling of Storm/ANT/TES/TNT and hybrids. I dare to mention that D&T, Patriot, Infect or Elves won less mayor events over the same time according to MTG Top 8. I sure know that you want to hint at ANT (MB PIF + ToA) with your last sentence ;)

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Lemnear: Yes, I definitely agree that with every deck and thread you should take what people say with a grain of salt and test lists for yourself and create your own conclusions before you take a deck to a tournament.

For the record, I think you have done great work with this deck and are likely the one most responsible for how it has changed and become the deck it is today. I still think you guys are a couple basic Island and a Past in Flames away from the perfect Storm list though... ;D

[Izor]

Meh, a couple of basic Island? Whenever I played with two Islands I felt like I was just playing one less land in my deck. Especially in lists that don't run Preordain, the 2nd Island is such a waste of one precious land slot... Basic Islands are essentially -1 to your total landcount when you're trying to cast Abrupt Decay post board. I think one is fine, but two... never understood it.

[Bryant Cook]

@Lemnear: Yes, I definitely agree that with every deck and thread you should take what people say with a grain of salt and test lists for yourself and create your own conclusions before you take a deck to a tournament.

For the record, I think you have done great work with this deck and are likely the one most responsible for how it has changed and become the deck it is today. I still think you guys are a couple basic Island and a Past in Flames away from the perfect Storm list though... ;D

All hail Peter. The most powerful wizard in the land.

[ElDorte]

If you want to squeeze another basic in against Wasteland it would propably be better to try to fit in a Mountain since we need the Red mana go go off and Blue in TES "only" supports the cantrips. To be fair i never tested it and maybe i wrong.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

You should take what EVERYONE says about Legacy decks with a grain of salt. This is a very complex game, and I think most players put too much faith in a select few people to make decklist decisions for them.

That being said, both Lemnear and Cook have a ton of experience with this deck, so I trust they are both on the right track with this strategy and would have to test to see who is right on specific card choices.

The larger issue is that TES continues to not have great results over the past couple years, so instead of looking towards which individuals you guys should listen to regarding this archetype, maybe it's time for some outside-the-box innovation.


I disagree, taking everyones opinions with a grain of salt will only hinder yourself as a magic player. I'm not saying we should only listen to Bryant, but his opinion should be held higher than normal imo, also I didn't say a thing about silence getting cut so lets not project plz

[Patrunkenphat7]

The island thing was a joke because Lemnear knows I prefer ANT over TES, and that's what I was hinting at.

@Dr Brian Pepper: There is a difference between reading and soaking in information from good players to help formulate your own conclusions and opinions and mindlessly following someone who you perceive as better or more experienced than you. It will 100% hinder you as a player and human being if you mindlessly follow what someone else tells you to do. "Taking something with a grain of salt" just means questioning all information given to you so that you can formulate your own opinions, even if the information is generally good information. You should probably listen to what Bryant says regarding this deck to obtain some good information if you want to play it, true, but the "grain of salt" that you should consider is that Bryant is very emotionally involved with keeping this deck relevant because it is like his child, and he has less experience playing other decks in Legacy than some of the veterans on this forum who have played 25+ different Legacy decks in sanctioned tournaments to solid results. No one is the king of all knowledge which is why you should soak in information from a variety of sources, take all advice with a grain of salt, and then formulate your own conclusions.

[Bryant Cook]

The island thing was a joke because Lemnear knows I prefer ANT over TES, and that's what I was hinting at.

@Dr Brian Pepper: There is a difference between reading and soaking in information from good players to help formulate your own conclusions and opinions and mindlessly following someone who you perceive as better or more experienced than you. It will 100% hinder you as a player and human being if you mindlessly follow what someone else tells you to do. "Taking something with a grain of salt" just means questioning all information given to you so that you can formulate your own opinions, even if the information is generally good information. You should probably listen to what Bryant says regarding this deck to obtain some good information if you want to play it, true, but the "grain of salt" that you should consider is that Bryant is very emotionally involved with keeping this deck relevant because it is like his child, and he has less experience playing other decks in Legacy than some of the veterans on this forum who have played 25+ different Legacy decks in sanctioned tournaments to solid results. No one is the king of all knowledge which is why you should soak in information from a variety of sources, take all advice with a grain of salt, and then formulate your own conclusions.

While I don't disagree with the "Grain of Salt" bit, I'd like to clarify something. With Legacy being such a diverse format, you need to know the ins-and-outs of many decks - this requires often playing them. I own several legacy decks and play them at locals weekly. I also played a different deck every month for a year for the Jupiter Games series when it was still relevant (In fact, I was one of the first people to play BUG Delver (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/51799/cooks-kitchen-nelc-10202012-4th-place#more-51799) & UWR Tempo (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52861/cooks-kitchen-murica-nelc-02022013) which later became a blade variant after Josh Cicio saw my list, then Erik Smith then won an invitational with.), I play other things as well, just not at large events. It's required/important to make proper decisions when deck-building.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

The island thing was a joke because Lemnear knows I prefer ANT over TES, and that's what I was hinting at.

@Dr Brian Pepper: There is a difference between reading and soaking in information from good players to help formulate your own conclusions and opinions and mindlessly following someone who you perceive as better or more experienced than you. It will 100% hinder you as a player and human being if you mindlessly follow what someone else tells you to do. "Taking something with a grain of salt" just means questioning all information given to you so that you can formulate your own opinions, even if the information is generally good information. You should probably listen to what Bryant says regarding this deck to obtain some good information if you want to play it, true, but the "grain of salt" that you should consider is that Bryant is very emotionally involved with keeping this deck relevant because it is like his child, and he has less experience playing other decks in Legacy than some of the veterans on this forum who have played 25+ different Legacy decks in sanctioned tournaments to solid results. No one is the king of all knowledge which is why you should soak in information from a variety of sources, take all advice with a grain of salt, and then formulate your own conclusions.

You're grasping here...I never stated that I was "mindlessly" following anyone, so I'd appreciate if you wouldn't make up conclusion to fuel your arguments, thanks. Anyway, I do agree with most of your points, I am simply stating that you should LISTEN to other people (because you're not the best, and neither am I), and not view everything out of skepticism.

[Patrunkenphat7]

You're grasping here...I never stated that I was "mindlessly" following anyone, so I'd appreciate if you wouldn't make up conclusion to fuel your arguments, thanks. Anyway, I do agree with most of your points, I am simply stating that you should LISTEN to other people (because you're not the best, and neither am I), and not view everything out of skepticism.

"The best" doesn't exist in a game like Magic which is why you should listen to but also question all information given to you. Hall of famers constantly misplay on camera and scrub out of competitive events because of poor deck choices. There is no one in this game who plays and builds decks even close to perfect.

A good friend and I constantly argue about everything Magic-related, but this process of questioning each other helps lead us to better deckbuilding conclusions than if one of us just listened to what the other was saying and questioned nothing. Expressing disagreement on what is good or bad in a deck or which decks are better or worse is a positive exercise for everyone.

[JDK]

TES had three win in tournaments with 100+ players within the last year (Belgian Legacy Cup Finals '14, SCG Premier IQ Dallas-Fort Worth, Tarmogeddon 10) from which I know and probably a lot more in medium sized ones and MTGO Dailies, but its a pain to look through those datas thanks to the constant mislabeling of Storm/ANT/TES/TNT and hybrids. I dare to mention that D&T, Patriot, Infect or Elves won less mayor events over the same time according to MTG Top 8. I sure know that you want to hint at ANT (MB PIF + ToA) with your last sentence ;)
"How to polish your statistics: A workshop by Lemnear" :P

If you take Top8/16 into account, TES is a joke in terms of numbers:
TES (+3 mislabelled with ANT): http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=9999&dlow=20&mlow=7&ylow=2014&dhigh=20&mhigh=7&yhigh=2015&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=The+Epic+Storm&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
DnT: http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=9999&dlow=20&mlow=7&ylow=2014&dhigh=20&mhigh=7&yhigh=2015&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=Death+and+Taxes&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
Elves: http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=9999&dlow=20&mlow=7&ylow=2014&dhigh=20&mhigh=7&yhigh=2015&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=Elves&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
Infect: http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=9999&dlow=20&mlow=7&ylow=2014&dhigh=20&mhigh=7&yhigh=2015&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=Berserk+Stompy&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

It feels like TES is suffering from the Doomsday-Syndrom: decent/good deck with just too few people playing it (correctly).

[Lemnear]

"How to polish your statistics: A workshop by Lemnear" :P

If you take Top8/16 into account, TES is a joke in terms of numbers:
TES (+3 mislabelled with ANT): http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=9999&dlow=20&mlow=7&ylow=2014&dhigh=20&mhigh=7&yhigh=2015&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=The+Epic+Storm&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
DnT: http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=9999&dlow=20&mlow=7&ylow=2014&dhigh=20&mhigh=7&yhigh=2015&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=Death+and+Taxes&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
Elves: http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=9999&dlow=20&mlow=7&ylow=2014&dhigh=20&mhigh=7&yhigh=2015&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=Elves&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
Infect: http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=9999&dlow=20&mlow=7&ylow=2014&dhigh=20&mhigh=7&yhigh=2015&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=Berserk+Stompy&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

It feels like TES is suffering from the Doomsday-Syndrom: decent/good deck with just too few people playing it (correctly).

Thats why I said "won" in the first place otherwise we would have to look at the percentage of decks in the field to see how the decks perform in regards to their representation which is important despite usually ignored in our B&R thread. You listed 4 entries for TES with 100% of them made T16 and 50% winning the tournament. None of the other decks you listed comes close to that, but we see that the average number of them played is exponentially higher than TES' which leads to the idea that the deck is overperforming in regards to its metagame representation. ;)

I guess the word "correctly" is key here. I have seen people horribly misplaying storm in sideevents sunday at the GP (I drew a number to get my stuff signed and had to wait anyways so I was observing games in the meanwhile) so I guess the potential to fuck it up is even higher with a more flexible deck like TES compared to ANT which sets it apart from Doomsday which is a deck suffering from its own inflexibility and lack of speed at the same time. TES has none of the problems which hold Doomsday back from evolving and the fact that TES manages to maintain its place over all these years and has some placings despite being a fringe archetype rewards us for our constant work on the deck which obviously got closer to ANTs (the probably better deck to fight through counterspells and manadenial) layout with non-blue decks diminishing as a result of SFM/Delver/TNN/Omni/Griselbrand/Emrakul/Probe/Preordain/Pyromancer/TC/DTT/etc. without giving up the potential for T1/2 burst plays, which are more linked to the threat density than to the number of Moxen ;p

[Dr Brian Pepper]

"The best" doesn't exist in a game like Magic which is why you should listen to but also question all information given to you. Hall of famers constantly misplay on camera and scrub out of competitive events because of poor deck choices. There is no one in this game who plays and builds decks even close to perfect.

A good friend and I constantly argue about everything Magic-related, but this process of questioning each other helps lead us to better deckbuilding conclusions than if one of us just listened to what the other was saying and questioned nothing. Expressing disagreement on what is good or bad in a deck or which decks are better or worse is a positive exercise for everyone.


I disagree about the best, there are people who at the top. They are above the rest and should be considered some of "the best" at the game, and that isn't a very good example, considering you personally know each other. I'm just stating veining everything out of skepticism when you're involved in a topic you are not 100% informed is really gets you nowhere. Also, nobody said anything about being perfect...

[Final Fortune]

without giving up the potential for T1/2 burst plays, which are more linked to the threat density than to the number of Moxen ;p

You keep reiterating this; I don't have a problem with only cutting Chrome Mox, I have a problem with relying on a ritual that scales by playing land drops and Infernal Tutor with only one, slower win condition compared to a ritual that scales by playing any card and a tutor with a second, faster win condition. There were multiple card decisions that made that deck unbearably slow vs prison to the point where I didn't see any reason to play it over ANT/TNT etc. Chrome Mox is just better vs the non Island decks, and when we start to cut them for rituals that are better vs Island decks the "why am I not just playing ANT" argument becomes very relevant because we're possibly just playing TES to keep playing it.

As long as D&T and MUD are a thing, I think Chrome Mox still has a lot of justification behind it, otherwise the 2xCabal Ritual/1xChrome Mox build seems like as close of a compromise to Island.dec as I'd bother with.

[JDK]

Thats why I said "won" in the first place otherwise we would have to look at the percentage of decks in the field to see how the decks perform in regards to their representation which is important despite usually ignored in our B&R thread. You listed 4 entries for TES with 100% of them made T16 and 50% winning the tournament. None of the other decks you listed comes close to that, but we see that the average number of them played is exponentially higher than TES' which leads to the idea that the deck is overperforming in regards to its metagame representation. ;)
I'm not sure if you are serious about talking stochastics with a sample size of 4 (read: four). I hope you are not.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Dr Brian Pepper: Sounds like we're just not going to agree. The last point I'll make is this: I assume you'd agree LSV is one of the best players in world, correct? If you watch his Legacy videos and intend to learn how to play ANT with zero skepticism in the watching/listening process, you will learn how to play ANT very poorly. He makes a lot of obvious misplays with this deck, makes some very poor SBing decisions, and his ANT lists are mediocre. You can still learn a lot from him, sure, but you need to constantly question whether he is right or wrong in his plays if you want to truly learn how to play the Storm variant in his videos. This is true with ANY player. This is also true for life in general.

@JDK: Players who have 100% bought into this deck are going to make excuses for those results, and there's nothing you/we can do about it. It would be way different if you presented that information to a player who is trying to figure out what deck to build and has 20 different decks that they are genuinely considering. In the end most players on here have already bought into the deck, and their debate is "which cards should I run in these 5 slots" rather than "is this deck even viable right now?" I wish that the community at large were more open-minded about their decks choices rather than subconsciously considering decks "extensions of themselves" (psychology/marketing principle that is definitely at play here). In the end this helps a competitive player build their deck because you know a huge portion of the Legacy metagame at any given time since players are slow to change and adapt in Magic in general, but especially in Legacy.

[Bryant Cook]

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/p600x600/11063748_10153507381099704_3915191449588174426_n.jpg?oh=1819cc60f6b8b694d5003d4638e79f90&oe=5653BEC5

[Patrunkenphat7]

I LOL'ed, that's awesome.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

@Dr Brian Pepper: Sounds like we're just not going to agree. The last point I'll make is this: I assume you'd agree LSV is one of the best players in world, correct? If you watch his Legacy videos and intend to learn how to play ANT with zero skepticism in the watching/listening process, you will learn how to play ANT very poorly. He makes a lot of obvious misplays with this deck, makes some very poor SBing decisions, and his ANT lists are mediocre. You can still learn a lot from him, sure, but you need to constantly question whether he is right or wrong in his plays if you want to truly learn how to play the Storm variant in his videos. This is true with ANY player. This is also true for life in general.

@JDK: Players who have 100% bought into this deck are going to make excuses for those results, and there's nothing you/we can do about it. It would be way different if you presented that information to a player who is trying to figure out what deck to build and has 20 different decks that they are genuinely considering. In the end most players on here have already bought into the deck, and their debate is "which cards should I run in these 5 slots" rather than "is this deck even viable right now?" I wish that the community at large were more open-minded about their decks choices rather than subconsciously considering decks "extensions of themselves" (psychology/marketing principle that is definitely at play here). In the end this helps a competitive player build their deck because you know a huge portion of the Legacy metagame at any given time since players are slow to change and adapt in Magic in general, but especially in Legacy.

If I was new to MTG I would watch LSV play some type of format, his technical play is amazing and you can and I have learned a lot from it. But, that is not the same thing going on here. In the format as Legacy, it's a know thing that sticking to one deck is a good thing to do (For this instance, Bryant has played TES for a long time, and im in the process of learning it) so im listening and valuing his opinion because I can easily say he is on a different level with this deck. Now, if I wanted to play Elves, i'd watch LSV. I am just stating that listening to others more experienced than you in a certain department is a good learning process, and you're...saying it's not?

[LDX]

If I may add a quick part here, following someone blindly on a topic you 100% know they know better than you isn't that bad, really.

Sure, critical thinking is always the best, in a situation in which it gives you more, or at least even, than what it costs you.

Having someone to follow doesn't prevent you from learning as long as you take some time afterwards to think about it. It doesn't have to be an ongoing, active process like you guys suggest. When critical thinking takes more time/energy than what it gives in exchange, you might as well fix the issue real quick by admitting someone knows better than you and move on. What you would have learned with that so called critical thinking will come to you 1000x faster with a quick introspection after you amassed experience in the process. Spending hours pondering every single choices on your own when you can have them being explained to you is a waste of a time you could have used to learn something else, like how to play TES properly.

Call me Utilitarian if you want, but most on this thread aren't demagogic dictators. They're offering a quick help.

At least, that's what my critical thinking tells me: learn to use the best of your capacity by putting the right energy at the right place. Avoid the waste when you can.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Dr Brian Pepper: I 100% agree that listening to others is good for learning something new. The debate began when you said you would take everything one person says WITHOUT a grain of salt. Maybe we have a different understanding of a silly idiom, but there is the age-old saying that ALL advice should be taken with a grain of salt, and that's all I was saying. Bryant seemed to agree with me on the last page, and I think that's the only thing we've ever agreed on.

@LDX: You make a good point that it is useful to listen to others if you want to save time. I think a lot of it depends on what you want to get out of the hobby, and that is different for everyone. I like to spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours deckbuilding, theory-crafting, and then testing my ideas. It helps me get through the long miles on the road when I'm working, and I am just a research-minded individual. Some people might want to hop on the internet before a local IQ and find and learn a Legacy deck in less than a day. For those people, yes, I agree that just copying someone else's opinions and list is more beneficial for that person than trying to perfect a unique 75 with no experience. Regardless though, you should "question" every card choice even with the limited knowledge you have so that you can at least better learn the deck even if you decide you don't have enough experience to make changes to it at that time.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

@Dr Brian Pepper: I 100% agree that listening to others is good for learning something new. The debate began when you said you would take everything one person says WITHOUT a grain of salt. Maybe we have a different understanding of a silly idiom, but there is the age-old saying that ALL advice should be taken with a grain of salt, and that's all I was saying. Bryant seemed to agree with me on the last page, and I think that's the only thing we've ever agreed on.

@LDX: You make a good point that it is useful to listen to others if you want to save time. I think a lot of it depends on what you want to get out of the hobby, and that is different for everyone. I like to spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours deckbuilding, theory-crafting, and then testing my ideas. It helps me get through the long miles on the road when I'm working, and I am just a research-minded individual. Some people might want to hop on the internet before a local IQ and find and learn a Legacy deck in less than a day. For those people, yes, I agree that just copying someone else's opinions and list is more beneficial for that person than trying to perfect a unique 75 with no experience. Regardless though, you should "question" every card choice even with the limited knowledge you have so that you can at least better learn the deck even if you decide you don't have enough experience to make changes to it at that time.

Ironically you took what I said literally, fair enough haha. Not trying to start arguments here, just stating that I value Bryant's opinion higher than others. (Perpetuating "mindlessly" is what got me a little annoyed I guess, no worries)

[Patrunkenphat7]

Ironically you took what I said literally, fair enough haha. Not trying to start arguments here, just stating that I value Bryant's opinion higher than others. (Perpetuating "mindlessly" is what got me a little annoyed I guess, no worries)

I agree that you should take Bryant's opinion on TES higher than many, so truce :P

[Lemnear]

I'm not sure if you are serious about talking stochastics with a sample size of 4 (read: four). I hope you are not.

I'm talking about the deck still having results despite being a fringe one. Claiming it has NO SUCCESS for YEARS is wrong.


You keep reiterating this; I don't have a problem with only cutting Chrome Mox, I have a problem with relying on a ritual that scales by playing land drops and Infernal Tutor with only one, slower win condition compared to a ritual that scales by playing any card and a tutor with a second, faster win condition.

This is a topic worth discussing and I'm up to look if Cabal Ritual isn't probably a better tool to achive the goal than Rains. I just looked at the Rains working excellent with the increased landcount I wanted anyway for the usual suspect which give TES more headache than ANT and cut the Carpets from the sideboard as a result. Its also an accelerant you can cast off a single IMS post AN unlike CR. I fear that with Cabal/Petition/PIF we rely too much on the yard and would be a reason to ask "why not play ANT?" and potentially haunts us against DRS + Wasteland like common in BUG Delver. Even if EtW is a faster wincon, its up to question if it's an efficent one (given you go all-in on goblins) in the current metagame.


There were multiple card decisions that made that deck unbearably slow vs prison to the point where I didn't see any reason to play it over ANT/TNT etc. Chrome Mox is just better vs the non Island decks, and when we start to cut them for rituals that are better vs Island decks the "why am I not just playing ANT" argument becomes very relevant because we're possibly just playing TES to keep playing it.

There were 4 cards changed (3 Moxen + 1 EtW -> 1 Bayou, 2 Rains, 3rd Duress) and I'm fine with giving away percentages against those prison decks. There is one hell of a difference between running 8 Tutors and AN as turn 1 combo enablers and Rituals which are all castable off 2 IMS only. ANT has a lot more requirements to combo turn 1 or 2 and still suffers from stuff like DRS or Cage. The disadvantages by reducing Moxen in regard to the current metagame structure are just marginal, but improves the odds against blue/wasteland decks while remaining faster than ANT. I dunno why I have to explain this.


As long as D&T and MUD are a thing, I think Chrome Mox still has a lot of justification behind it, otherwise the 2xCabal Ritual/1xChrome Mox build seems like as close of a compromise to Island.dec as I'd bother with.

MUD and D&T have like 6% of the metagame pie together so I wouldn't call that "being a thing" we have to streamline our maindeck for. I'm puzzled about your position: Is 1 Mox vs. 0 Mox in the 60 such a big difference for you to combo off T1?

Edit:

@JDK: Players who have 100% bought into this deck are going to make excuses for those results, and there's nothing you/we can do about it. It would be way different if you presented that information to a player who is trying to figure out what deck to build and has 20 different decks that they are genuinely considering. In the end most players on here have already bought into the deck, and their debate is "which cards should I run in these 5 slots" rather than "is this deck even viable right now?"

Just a question as this rubbed me the wrong way: Do you think I own/play only one deck or did I ever made the impression that I defend the rainbow manabase because of monetary reasons?

[Dr Brian Pepper]

I feel like D&T is 100% "a thing", MUD is more fringe

[JDK]

I'm talking about the deck still having results despite being a fringe one. Claiming it has NO SUCCESS for YEARS is wrong.
Well, I didn't say that and I guess deep down you are aware that Patrunkenphat7 probably meant "TES has gathered very very very limited results over the last years" (which is 100% true, as you can see from the links I posted).
If you took him literally and wanted to point out that this is not true, I can somewhat understand you, but arguing with "50% winrate out of top16 finishes!!" is pretty desperate or plain out delusional, when you consider a samplesize of 4 vs dozens.

[Bryant Cook]

This is a topic worth discussing and I'm up to look if Cabal Ritual isn't probably a better tool to achive the goal than Rains. I just looked at the Rains working excellent with the increased landcount I wanted anyway for the usual suspect which give TES more headache than ANT and cut the Carpets from the sideboard as a result. Its also an accelerant you can cast off a single IMS post AN unlike CR. I fear that with Cabal/Petition/PIF we rely too much on the yard and would be a reason to ask "why not play ANT?" and potentially haunts us against DRS + Wasteland like common in BUG Delver. Even if EtW is a faster wincon, its up to question if it's an efficent one (given you go all-in on goblins) in the current metagame.

With Cabal Ritual/Petition/PIF, you're never truly locked into using the graveyard as you have Empty the Warrens as an alternative with Wish instead of the other two options.

EDIT: Also, I've noticed recently that I feel a little foolish siding out Cabal Ritual against Delver decks for Carpets. Is carpet a slot that should change? It was a little different when we were swapping Chrome Moxens.

[Lemnear]

Well, I didn't say that and I guess deep down you are aware that Patrunkenphat7 probably meant "TES has gathered very very very limited results over the last years" (which is 100% true, as you can see from the links I posted).
If you took him literally and wanted to point out that this is not true, I can somewhat understand you, but arguing with "50% winrate out of top16 finishes!!" is pretty desperate or plain out delusional, when you consider a samplesize of 4 vs dozens.

I answered a hyperbole with a hyperbole. You can't compare decks performance without looking at their results in relation to their representation. You expect that TES, which is ~10% of storm decks, should have a comparable number of placings to ANT? Even as a plain numbers game this doesn't even make sense and even less if we automatically link the sheer number of placings to the decks actual strengh and ignore all other factors. Take lands.dec as example. You can point to the number of T8s and call it a bad deck while ignoring the sheer financial requirement to get a Tabernacle to play it.

Is it a fair base to conclude "expensive and narrow cards -> rarely played -> rare placings -> bad deck" in terms of lands.dec? It's not. But people however conclude that the low amount of people who are brave and competent enough to play a deck which deals the ultimate punishment with every mistake you make over 7+ rounds, is an automatic document of the deck being objectively bad.

Edit: It's like saying the DARK SOULS game series is worse than the ASSASSINS CREED ones just because the later sold more copies

[Lemnear]

With Cabal Ritual/Petition/PIF, you're never truly locked into using the graveyard as you have Empty the Warrens as an alternative with Wish instead of the other two options.

EDIT: Also, I've noticed recently that I feel a little foolish siding out Cabal Ritual against Delver decks for Carpets. Is carpet a slot that should change? It was a little different when we were swapping Chrome Moxens.

...and if your yard is locked down Rain boosts your mana likely better than CR to form a natural spellchain or grab and resolve your EtW through Daze and friends. ;)

On the sideboarding:
It is imo kinda foolish as the Main reason to play more rituals IS to have a better shot against Delver and friends in the first place which is the exact reason for my durdling with the 10 Rituals. It made sense to replace some of the three Moxen for higher impact manasources, but if you are basically on the same track with me and the 10 Rituals, I guess you have also these two SB slots free again.

[JDK]

I answered a hyperbole with a hyperbole. You can't compare decks performance without looking at their results in relation to their representation. You expect that TES, which is ~10% of storm decks, should have a comparable number of placings to ANT? Even as a plain numbers game this doesn't even make sense and even less if we automatically link the sheer number of placings to the decks actual strengh and ignore all other factors. Take lands.dec as example. You can point to the number of T8s and call it a bad deck while ignoring the sheer financial requirement to get a Tabernacle to play it.

Is it a fair base to conclude "expensive and narrow cards -> rarely played -> rare placings -> bad deck" in terms of lands.dec? It's not. But people however conclude that the low amount of people who are brave and competent enough to play a deck which deals the ultimate punishment with every mistake you make over 7+ rounds, is an automatic document of the deck being objectively bad.

Edit: It's like saying the DARK SOULS game series is worse than the ASSASSINS CREED ones just because the later sold more copies

Of course you have to take representation into account - but yet, you still have to think about the reasons for the lack of the same. Still, that's not the point though. You based your argumentation on "wins" and "wins / top16", which is just laughable, once you realize how small the amount of actual samples is. Please tell me you are aware of that before using another apple & orange analogy.

I am also not sure how you base your arguments on lands. The numbers (http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=9999&dlow=20&mlow=7&ylow=2014&dhigh=20&mhigh=7&yhigh=2015&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=Lands&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on) clearly make it the more successful - or let's say popular, so you don't lose any hair while reading this.

Yes, Storm.dec punishes mistakes more than other decks do. This is not limited to TES, though. I'm also not sure how I should interpret the cocky part about being "brave and competent".

And if you really insist on using shitty analogies: Dark Souls has sold well, TES doesn't. Think of it as the Beyond Good & Evil or XIII (god I loved that game). Awesome, but lacking numbers (for whatever reason: better/more popular alternatives, difficulty etc).

[Plague Sliver]

Edit: It's like saying the DARK SOULS game series is worse than the ASSASSINS CREED ones just because the later sold more copies

I enjoy this analogy, because from what I've heard about Dark Souls, it's supposed to be motherlovin' hard to play/master. Kind of like TES :cool:

Due to its "fringe-ness," I've enjoyed a few wins vs. bad opponents who didn't think we could go off T1/T2 reliably, or boarded in Rest in Peace thinking it was the stone cold nuts. Well, bad players are bad players, but you get my point.

Though I've mostly been lurking in here, I've never found the level of group-think to be unbearably high. Decklists in Magic are like sports highlights - they never provide the full story on their own. I've tried to avoid looking at decklists and instead focused on discussion points, but easier said than done.

[Lemnear]

Of course you have to take representation into account - but yet, you still have to think about the reasons for the lack of the same. Still, that's not the point though. You based your argumentation on "wins" and "wins / top16", which is just laughable, once you realize how small the amount of actual samples is. Please tell me you are aware of that before using another apple & orange analogy.

As I said: It was a hyperbole is response to a hyperbole. Don't make more out if it than it was.


I am also not sure how you base your arguments on lands. The numbers (http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=100&nhigh=9999&dlow=20&mlow=7&ylow=2014&dhigh=20&mhigh=7&yhigh=2015&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=Lands&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on) clearly make it the more successful - or let's say popular, so you don't lose any hair while reading this.

Point taken. Its still far more regulary played than TES; less than D&T (which is a DtB) despite featuring pretty similar finishes. What does this tell us about the relative strengh of Lands vs. D&T? Moreover in regards to metagame and representation?


Yes, Storm.dec punishes mistakes more than other decks do. This is not limited to TES, though. I'm also not sure how I should interpret the cocky part about being "brave and competent".

Being on the edge of winning/losing with every decision you make isn't for everyone and/or for long tournaments. People understandable tend to use more forgiving decks for bigger tournaments (see SCG grinders). TES has more room for misplays than ANT due to the question, if EtW is a good/smart choice in given situations or how your odds are with Ad Nauseam. ANT uses mainly Tendrils which is pretty clear gameplay and you can calculate the outcome of PIF, unlike if you use AN as your main engine. PIF even has flashback if you fail or cast it into a counter. It IS the easier and clearer trait for playing storm, which I wanted to highlight with my bold sentence.


And if you really insist on using shitty analogies: Dark Souls has sold well, TES doesn't. Think of it as the Beyond Good & Evil or XIII (god I loved that game). Awesome, but lacking numbers (for whatever reason: better/more popular alternatives, difficulty etc).

I guess TES is not "The Elder Scrolls" in this context, but the analogy was more in terms to the fact that the casual gamplay of Assassins Creed has sold more copies than the hard-to-master Souls series, because investing time to learn a game isn't for everyone if you simply want to enjoy your freetime. I think the idea transfers pretty good to MTG in that context. BG&E & XIII were superb games, but it wasn't just about taste/sells, but about the fact that the Souls series is far from beginner friendly and the opposite of pickup & play, which sure had influence on the sold copies


Edit:

I enjoy this analogy, because from what I've heard about Dark Souls, it's supposed to be motherlovin' hard to play/master. Kind of like TES :cool:

It's not "hard" or "difficult" in a common videogame context, that you need to have the reflexes of a 14-year old Kung Fu monk to master it, it's just that the game is strictly telling you via Deathscreen a pretty simple message: "Your approach to this level/passage is wrong. It wants to be played differently". Players who constantly try to go with their head through the wall will get frustrated easily, while players who analyze the cause of their fail and try a different way the next time will be rewarded with progress in the game and experience for the future levels.

[Lemnear]

Bryant and me...

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/Dumbledore_dueling_Voldemort_zpsyjlli7dm.jpg

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/980xert_zpsd3zzuc0o.jpg

[Lemnear]

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/harry_potter_MAIN_zpsi64mb6y8.jpg

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/l_hp3-fx-479_zpsxydoiez3.png

[Candlestand]

What you really do here:

http://33.media.tumblr.com/7e608cef47f908f18e498d7b0ddaed87/tumblr_inline_nn0jzb60rt1s7ufdm_500.gif

[Final Fortune]

MUD and D&T have like 6% of the metagame pie together so I wouldn't call that "being a thing" we have to streamline our maindeck for. I'm puzzled about your position: Is 1 Mox vs. 0 Mox in the 60 such a big difference for you to combo off T1?



I don't have a position on cutting Chrome Mox altogether or how many should be cut, it's more a question of why are we cutting Chrome Mox and what are we cutting them for. Personally, I'm trying 3 MD Infernal Tutor, 2 Simian Spirit Guide and 1 Chrome Mox in order to keep IMS in the deck without losing resources to Imprint in my starting hand.

I have my biases like everybody else, I dislike the MD Bayou, any number of Rain of Filth, cutting Empty the Warrens from the MD, adding Dark Petition to the SB etc. (I don't know about you guys, but I SB in 1 Thoughtseize, 2 Chain of Vapour, 1 Infernal Tutor for 3 Duress, 1 Empty the Warrens vs aggro decks, so are you guys leaving Empty the Warrens in the MD and just hoping villain doesn't SB in any removal for it when they're probably playing with removal for Young Pyromancer any way?) but I'm trying to remain as objective as possible to the alternatives for the acceleration package.

[Lemnear]

What you really do here:

http://33.media.tumblr.com/7e608cef47f908f18e498d7b0ddaed87/tumblr_inline_nn0jzb60rt1s7ufdm_500.gif

hahahaha


I don't have a position on cutting Chrome Mox altogether or how many should be cut, it's more a question of why are we cutting Chrome Mox and what are we cutting them for. Personally, I'm trying 3 MD Infernal Tutor, 2 Simian Spirit Guide and 1 Chrome Mox in order to keep IMS in the deck without losing resources to Imprint in my starting hand.

I have my biases like everybody else, I dislike the MD Bayou, any number of Rain of Filth, cutting Empty the Warrens from the MD, adding Dark Petition to the SB etc. (I don't know about you guys, but I SB in 1 Thoughtseize, 2 Chain of Vapour, 1 Infernal Tutor for 3 Duress, 1 Empty the Warrens vs aggro decks, so are you guys leaving Empty the Warrens in the MD and just hoping villain doesn't SB in any removal for it when they're probably playing with removal for Young Pyromancer any way?) but I'm trying to remain as objective as possible to the alternatives for the acceleration package.

I think I mentioned the "why" by pointing to the shrinking number of non-blue matchups and DTT putting our opponents far ahead, if we have to fight through countermeasures and 2-for-1 ourselves for manasources. DTT isn't a problem by itself as we "can" combo before it comes relevant, but the card gets really annoying if paired with tools to stop our T1/2 combo which have to be dismantled first. If you can't win before their turn 3 you have an uphill battle to fight and trading two cards for a mere mana is extremely bad in the face of DTT. Rain/Cabal can actually profit from you having to go for the long run for these worst case scenarios against blue decks.

Petition is just the card that allows you to keep 4 MB Infernals for reliable/quick access to AN while maintaining a way to acces AN via Wish if Goblins/PIF are neither an option. I hate to rely on discard against aggro in general, especially if it eats two lifepoints as you plain hope to hit the best in their opening grip and hope they never draw another hatebear/clock. I've burned my fingers too often with that approach and moved to a reactive one with Chains & Decays.

About which form of aggro we're talking about? Some you can efficiently blitz with EtW even postboard, while others have to many outs (Deathblade) to reliable work with Goblins. EtW is the tricky one indeed as the postboard use is highly questionable against a lot of decks and I ended up boarding it out in most postboard matches, which threw up the question, if I even NEED the card mainboard for most game 1s, where we usually fight through less countermeasures anyways. I felt and feel that EtW is the card mainly responsible for our need of additional non-land IMS', both for casting it T1/2 (as EtW is usually unreliable afterwards) and to balance out the less flipped cards off Ad Nauseam (due to having to stop @ 4 life).

[Bryant Cook]

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/p600x600/11743008_10153508882129704_1115731967226618971_n.jpg?oh=a5d505bcf8c63f6dc47072103205e92d&oe=5615D7CD

[Marcelo65]

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Cards/img/specimens/223432165.jpg

[Final Fortune]

hahahaha



I think I mentioned the "why" by pointing to the shrinking number of non-blue matchups and DTT putting our opponents far ahead, if we have to fight through countermeasures and 2-for-1 ourselves for manasources. DTT isn't a problem by itself as we "can" combo before it comes relevant, but the card gets really annoying if paired with tools to stop our T1/2 combo which have to be dismantled first. If you can't win before their turn 3 you have an uphill battle to fight and trading two cards for a mere mana is extremely bad in the face of DTT. Rain/Cabal can actually profit from you having to go for the long run for these worst case scenarios against blue decks.

Petition is just the card that allows you to keep 4 MB Infernals for reliable/quick access to AN while maintaining a way to acces AN via Wish if Goblins/PIF are neither an option. I hate to rely on discard against aggro in general, especially if it eats two lifepoints as you plain hope to hit the best in their opening grip and hope they never draw another hatebear/clock. I've burned my fingers too often with that approach and moved to a reactive one with Chains & Decays.

About which form of aggro we're talking about? Some you can efficiently blitz with EtW even postboard, while others have to many outs (Deathblade) to reliable work with Goblins. EtW is the tricky one indeed as the postboard use is highly questionable against a lot of decks and I ended up boarding it out in most postboard matches, which threw up the question, if I even NEED the card mainboard for most game 1s, where we usually fight through less countermeasures anyways. I felt and feel that EtW is the card mainly responsible for our need of additional non-land IMS', both for casting it T1/2 (as EtW is usually unreliable afterwards) and to balance out the less flipped cards off Ad Nauseam (due to having to stop @ 4 life).

By aggro I mean anything that requires you to SB out Duress, sometimes decks like Goblins, Elves, D&T etc. have token sweepers that catch Empty the Warrens by surprise.

The problem I have with Dark Petition is that unlike Past in Flames there is never a choice to SB it in for anything else (I SB in the PIF/Tendril kill from time to time) so your deck is less modular. It may be a minor consideration, I just like being able to SB out Empty the Warrens for another threat in my 75. I still think Empty the Warrens is useful MD, mainly because it works at maximum utility when you know your opponent can't have any outs to it yet and there are some match ups where you want to have 9 ways to get to a 4cc target rather than only 4.

Meh, maybe I just need to play without it pre-board in order to understand how much I'll miss it over all, mish-mash the 2 Cabal Ritual, 1 Chrome Mox idea with no MD Empty the Warrens over the weekend and then report back.

[d0nkey]

Can we not post fucking porn here, or whatever the hell that was. Jesus, some of us read this shit at work.

[Lemnear]

By aggro I mean anything that requires you to SB out Duress, sometimes decks like Goblins, Elves, D&T etc. have token sweepers that catch Empty the Warrens by surprise.

I see. Siding EtW out against Elves is valid; I would however keep the Duress as stripping Glimpse or NO can really set them back to a slow aggro deck. I like chopping Therapies or Ponder first here tbh.


The problem I have with Dark Petition is that unlike Past in Flames there is never a choice to SB it in for anything else (I SB in the PIF/Tendril kill from time to time) so your deck is less modular.

I also like boarding PIF from time to time especially for slower matchups in place of the MB EtW (my old two Mox build)


It may be a minor consideration, I just like being able to SB out Empty the Warrens for another threat in my 75. I still think Empty the Warrens is useful MD, mainly because it works at maximum utility when you know your opponent can't have any outs to it yet and there are some match ups where you want to have 9 ways to get to a 4cc target rather than only 4.

That's why I had two in the SB to board one in against MUD, D&T, Tempo, etc.


Meh, maybe I just need to play without it pre-board in order to understand how much I'll miss it over all, mish-mash the 2 Cabal Ritual, 1 Chrome Mox idea with no MD Empty the Warrens over the weekend and then report back.

Would look forward to it.

[Candlestand]

Can we not post fucking porn here, or whatever the hell that was. Jesus, some of us read this shit at work.

I wouldn't categorize The Silence of the Lambs as porn... I'm sure your co-workers would appreciate your great taste in movies.

If you meant Marcelo's or Bryant's post, I'm sorry and I concur. Especially that Serum Visions is clearly pornographic.

[LDX]

After weeks of discussion on this forum, here is time for an explanation. Maybe will that put many questions I could have asked on perspective. Thank you all for helping me growing as a player!

And of course, a special thanks to Bryant for the opportunity, and Peter for the hours spend answering every single points in my questions.

http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-epic-storm-approaches-the-magdalen-coast-an-introduction/

[meffeo]

Dat awesome cantrip

Love it. Who did the alter?

[Lemnear]

Love it. Who did the alter?

First suspect should be Malte ;)

[cdnza]

Just received my set of foil Dark Petitions today. Can someone please break this card so that I can justify the bad preorder price I paid? Thanks in advance.

[Lemnear]

Just received my set of foil Dark Petitions today. Can someone please break this card so that I can justify the bad preorder price I paid? Thanks in advance.

Will stick to IT in ANT and 0-2 DPs, just use 1 in the TES SB and Draw7 effects are too bad in Legacy to play a form of Pitch Storm due to a lack of quick and permanent mana sources. Even in Doomsday its a worse setup spell than DTT.

Don't see space for a whole playset in any format

[Dr_D]

So I took TES to my local last night. The deck seemed great as always but I only got to keep one 7 across all 4 rounds which was pretty depressing. Anyway, I was wondering if there is a way out of this situation I found myself in last night...

It's game 1 against UWR delver. His board is a flipped delver and moastery swiftspear. I've stripped all countermagic, leaving him with 2 ponders, a fetchland, and a wasteland in hand.

I'm down to 3 life, from quick creature beats as well as probing and my board is Usea, Volc, Swamp. My hand is rite of flame, burning wish, LED x2, and lotus petal. Opponent is at 19. Is there anything that could have been done here? I had no rituals in the yard to go for a PiF kill and goblins wouldn't get me there as I would die when he swings with his delver. I'm sure I misplayed somewhere in the game to get into this situation, but can anyone see a way out of it? The list I took it identical to Bryant's most current list.

[Bryant Cook]

It sounds like on the previous turn after you played your discard spell that you shoud've went Petal, Rite, LED, LED, Wish, ETW for 14 which is a 2 turn clock against his 3.

[Tom T]

So I took TES to my local last night. The deck seemed great as always but I only got to keep one 7 across all 4 rounds which was pretty depressing. Anyway, I was wondering if there is a way out of this situation I found myself in last night...

It's game 1 against UWR delver. His board is a flipped delver and moastery swiftspear. I've stripped all countermagic, leaving him with 2 ponders, a fetchland, and a wasteland in hand.

I'm down to 3 life, from quick creature beats as well as probing and my board is Usea, Volc, Swamp. My hand is rite of flame, burning wish, LED x2, and lotus petal. Opponent is at 19. Is there anything that could have been done here? I had no rituals in the yard to go for a PiF kill and goblins wouldn't get me there as I would die when he swings with his delver. I'm sure I misplayed somewhere in the game to get into this situation, but can anyone see a way out of it? The list I took it identical to Bryant's most current list.

What kind of cantrips did you have in your graveyard?

You could've gone (t-volc)RoF->LED->LED->LP->(t-swamp)BW, crack LEDs (RBBBUUU)->PiF(RBU), Usea untapped, LP in Play, RoF still in graveyard (don't play it before the cantrips)

Now,
- Storm is 6
- Basically you start of with 6 mana post-PiF: (RBU+U/B+X+R(rof)) x can be any color
- A drawn RoF nets +3 mana to above situation (play drawn RoF (+2), play flashback RoF (+2)) on top of the 5 mana post PiF before flashback RoF)

After that you cantrip.
Cantrip-order: GP(life) > Pon > BS, GP(mana) importance is dependent on your BS/Pon found cards

Outs with GP(life): BW
Outs with GP(life)+BS/Pon/GP(mana): BW + any manasource except for CM, IT+LED/RoF/CR (threshold dependant)
Outs with BS/Pon+BS/Pon: BW+LED/RoF/DR/CR(threshold)

There are more outs as you can still play a land and cast extra cantrips. Fetch+GP(life) doesn't work though.

I'm probably forgetting something so if I am please point that out to me.

~Tom

[Pelikanudo]

So I took TES to my local last night. The deck seemed great as always but I only got to keep one 7 across all 4 rounds which was pretty depressing. Anyway, I was wondering if there is a way out of this situation I found myself in last night...

It's game 1 against UWR delver. His board is a flipped delver and moastery swiftspear. I've stripped all countermagic, leaving him with 2 ponders, a fetchland, and a wasteland in hand.

I'm down to 3 life, from quick creature beats as well as probing and my board is Usea, Volc, Swamp. My hand is rite of flame, burning wish, LED x2, and lotus petal. Opponent is at 19. Is there anything that could have been done here? I had no rituals in the yard to go for a PiF kill and goblins wouldn't get me there as I would die when he swings with his delver. I'm sure I misplayed somewhere in the game to get into this situation, but can anyone see a way out of it? The list I took it identical to Bryant's most current list.

I remember the Master Card advertisement:

Diminishing Returns is the way to go if you reach this situation... in here this is Priceless...
I finally stopped to play it because of Dark Petition new card, maybe I come back to it at some point... I love so mu

[Tom T]

I remember the Master Card advertisement:

Diminishing Returns is the way to go if you reach this situation... in here this is Priceless...
I finally stopped to play it because of Dark Petition new card, maybe I come back to it at some point... I love so mu

I love the card as well, but you give your opponent a 7-card hand out of which Lightning Bolt is an instant loss or any counterspell can be harmful depending on your draw. I think PiF-route is better in this situation.

[Dr_D]

First off, thanks for all the answers, it's much appreciated.



It sounds like on the previous turn after you played your discard spell that you shoud've went Petal, Rite, LED, LED, Wish, ETW for 14 which is a 2 turn clock against his 3.

I actually didn't have the wish until that turn, or I would have just made goblins. My memory is really fuzzy as I didn't actually take notes but I know I couldn't have done anything until that exact turn. Maybe it was just too sketchy a hand to keep, but I remember having fast mana, discard, and a cantrip and I didn't want to mull to 5.

[Lemnear]

It's game 1 against UWR delver. His board is a flipped delver and moastery swiftspear. I've stripped all countermagic, leaving him with 2 ponders, a fetchland, and a wasteland in hand.

I'm down to 3 life, from quick creature beats as well as probing ...


Diminishing Returns is the way to go if you reach this situation

Alexandre, if you read this: THIS is the stuff I was talking about, which leaves me frustrated. God damn! *facepalm*

[Izor]

So you'd rather scoop than trying to win, even if your chance may be very low due to you dying to a single Bolt and/or permission in your opponent's fresh seven?

That's not how I was taught to play Magic.


I'm not saying Diminishing Returns is good, I'm not even running it any more myself. But IF you have it, and IF you're in the exact situation described above, going for the Returns kill is not only your best, but your only option. The only alternative is scooping, and at that point you should be embarassed because you scooped when there was a way to win.

[ManCharm]

Just received my set of foil Dark Petitions today. Can someone please break this card so that I can justify the bad preorder price I paid? Thanks in advance.

You weren't the person that paid $72 for a foil playset on eBay were you? I stopped bidding on that disaster at $50 and cried after I saw it end.

[Lemnear]

So you'd rather scoop than trying to win, even if your chance may be very low due to you dying to a single Bolt and/or permission in your opponent's fresh seven?

That's not how I was taught to play Magic.


I'm not saying Diminishing Returns is good, I'm not even running it any more myself. But IF you have it, and IF you're in the exact situation described above, going for the Returns kill is not only your best, but your only option. The only alternative is scooping, and at that point you should be embarassed because you scooped when there was a way to win.

A nice way to look at the scenario: Run a totally unnecessary card for a fringe situation, which would possibly have been evadable and against all odds of your opponent hitting Daze/Pierce/FoW/Bolt, which also still leaves doubts about you being able to win after spinning the roulette.

Basically we're talking about "ifs" as a result of running a narrow card in the first place. I think the discussion about "rather scooping" is ergo as vit off if you ask me

[LDX]

Alexandre, if you read this: THIS is the stuff I was talking about, which leaves me frustrated. God damn! *facepalm*

lol'd :laugh:

See you tomorrow with a new report hopefully :) regular event tonight, tournament pratice Saturday, and next tournament next Thursday! 0-2 ain't gonna happen this time!

[Lemnear]

lol'd :laugh:

See you tomorrow with a new report hopefully :) regular event tonight, tournament pratice Saturday, and next tournament next Thursday! 0-2 ain't gonna happen this time!

good luck

[LDX]

2-2.

Disappointing night as a TES player, but overall okay(ishh). It's going to be a long story.

The good news first! We were more players tonight, and mostly the newcomers left with a big piece of wins. The leader of our league had a counterperformance and left at 1-3. That means, I'm now ahead of our rankings (as it's % based). The previous leader was mostly there because he won the last tournament, but couldn't keep that well in the weekly. Things can change next Thursday as our second tournament happens, but for now, Storm is at the place it deserves.

So here is my final standing:

2-2

2-0 vs Deadguy Ale
1-2 vs Reanimator
2-0 vs The Gate
0-2 vs Death & Taxes


Round 1 vs Deadguy Ale: 2-0

Game 1
I'm on the draw. I keep a very good hand of Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, Ponder, Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire.

Before he actually plays, the first question arises. Would playing the Cabal Therapy before the Ponder be safer? By that, I mean fetching a Swamp and playing the Cabal Therapy, making sure it's safe to go for a precious dual land. While I'm pondering that, his opening move consists of a Wasteland. I won't have to deal with my dilema right now. On my turn, I play fetch, pass. He takes out my Dark Ritual with a Thoughtseize next, then I pass, then he goes for Liliana instead of Wasteland. It's enough for an Empty the Warrens @ 16 Goblins.

Sideboard: -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Grapeshot. I want to be as fast as possible, and he barely has hatebears, or at least not enough to bring more hate. I also know he doesn't run Chalice, so I don't even think about Abrupt Decay.

Game 2
I keep a Lion's Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Chain of Vapor, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Underground Sea, Ponder. He mulligans to 5 again, and it becomes a Turn 2 Ad Nauseam for the win. I however would like one tip: once again, I ''forgot'' to play both LED + Petal by the end of my turn, after a Ponder with which I hid a Tutor. It had no consequence as I still won, but I went off with 0 floating mana instead of 3, as he took a LED with a Hymn to Tourach. Now of course, my girlfriend is rather pretty and can easily be a distraction, but is there any general tip to these simple mistakes? I've been told enough to play these artifacts before they get discarded and I keep losing some game to that. Is it only a matter of experience?


Round 2 vs Reanimator: 1-2

Game 1
It's his first time playing with us. He knows Reanimator is rather good in our meta, and specially good vs TES. I'm afraid as I know the importance of this game. I lose the dice roll again, I think I lose. I keep Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Cabal Therapy, Bloodstained mire, Underground Sea. On his turn, he drops Lotus Petal, and Ponder with his Underground Sea. He shuffles. He plays a second Petal, and Thoughtseize me.

As a general Reanimator player, what would hurt me the most? What should have been his choice? He took off my Ponder and I felt like this was the best way to hurt me, for sure, but I wonder if someone else have a different idea. He plays a third Petal, and I get to play my first turn. I draw, luckily, a Ponder. I go for Gitaxian Probe (paid with life) that shows me an Entomb and an Iona. I'm so afraid! I go straight Cabal Therapy on Entomb. Bad mistake. Of course, as I cast my Cabal Therapy, he responds with Entomb as it is an instant. Not only did I waste a Cabal Therapy, I also lost a turn as I could have Ponder. I'm pissed. However, while he has a Griselbrand in the grave, he only has an Iona in hand. I manage to draw a LED, then an other off a Ponder, and go for the kill T3. What I'm proud the most is how I played around Daze the whole time: with a single LED, two Petal and two lands, I chose to Brainstorm before going off, just in case to see more mana and dodge Daze. I drew an other LED! I knew I was going this turn and would have paid the mana for Daze, but that would have left me with only 4 mana after the Infernal Tutor, for a bad Empty the Warren instead of Ad Nauseam. Long story short, dodged Daze, was nice.

Sideboard: +3 Xantid Swarm, +2 Chain of Vapor, -1 Empty the Warrens, -2 Ponder, -2 Chrome Mox, -1(something). I forgot the list itself, but I remembered how useful the Xantid were in my playtests, and thought it would be fun to bounce a Griselbrand after the draws. Yeah, I learned it doesn't work like that. Now I know boarding Chrome Mox & Ponder out should be rather bad (general rule is, Ponder out vs fast games, Moxen out vs long game, correct?), but I felt like this was a long matchup (it was), and I remembered Ponder was often left out. The logic, aftermath, was bad but there was logic in there at least.

Game 2
I made a crucial mistake there that may not have given me a win, but that at least wouldn't have left me such a bitter taste. I keep Infernal Tutor, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Gitaxian Probe, Cabal Therapy, Bloodstained Mire, Burning Wish I think. He's on the play as I won last game. He fetches, and pass. I draw Duress. Of course I lead with that, and he casts Entomb in response. I see Exhume, Exhume, Brainstorm, Ponder. I don't want to die, so I take out Ponder, and play Lotus Petal into Cabal Therapy to remove the Exhume. Smart move, I thought. He went on his turn 2 with only a Brainstorm in hand and a Griselbrand in graveyard. He draws a fetch, plays Brainstorm.

He plays Reanimate. Fuck.

Gogo Chain of Vapor? I draw a Chrome Mox. I play Gitaxian Probe, see no threats, I draw Rite of Flame. To me, it seems like the only thing to do, if I want to win, is to remove the Griselbrand. It seems like Burning Wish for Void Snare is the best. Of course, he's at like, 10 life, so he can still activate Griselbrand and fuck me up. I'm aware of this, but I'll force him to. I kind of pray, I tell to myself, I'll need backups after I removed his Griselbrand. I chose to keep the Chrome Mox and Infernal Tutor in hand. I was greedy.

What happened? I played Lotus Petal > Rite of Flame > Burning Wish, leaving me an untapped land for Void Snare. I chose not to imprint a Chrome Mox to pay the Daze cost will full conscience. Guess what, it was the bad choice. He didn't even draw a Force of Will, only a Daze. I think I would have won if I played properly because my graveyard was ready for a Past in Flame, or close to at least. I do believe I would have recovered faster. He would have been at 3 life! What an easy Grapeshot kill too!

Game 3
I keep Swamp, Polluted Delta, Lotus Petal, Xantid Swarm, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe. I open with Gitaxian Probe. I see Island, Lotus Petal, Iona, Reanimate, Thoughtseize, Careful Study Entomb. I play Delta and go. I guess I could have played Brainstorm right away and hope to draw a discard to play on the Petal, but I'm not sure if it would have been the right play. Thoughts?

He drops a land, and drop a Petal to Entomb/Reanimate Griselbrand. Turn 1, again. I lose shortly after, as I can't find anything useful on the Brainstorm. Xantid felt so slow in this game, but I guess it was just badluck over the bad card. I don't know, I wouldn't cut them because of this single occurence at least.


Round 3 vs The Gate: 2-0

Game 1
Bruno is my nemesis player, but he doesn't feel good tonight. I of course lose the dice roll and I am on the draw. I keep Lotus Petal, Brainstorm, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Gitaxian Probe, Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire. He does nothing turn 1 (he mull'), I drop Petal to avoid discard, and play the Ponder I draw. On his turn, he plays Hymn, I have nothing that important to be honest. It seems ok to me. I draw a LED, I pay the Probe cost. I see Faerie Macabre (I won't go Past in Flames I guess), Vampire Nighthawk, Liliana, Gatekeeper. He doesn't have a third land anyway. I build a bit, I try to go for a good Rite of Flame/Ad Nauseam, but I totally forgot he could cripple my Rite of Flame mana. I end up being screwed on this, as it leaves me at 5 mana instead of the 7 expected: I can't Burning Wish + Past in Flames this turn. I go for Grapeshot for 7 and expect to flashback it later. He plays Lilianas, but it's not enough as I draw Cabal Therapies with him having no hands, or extra lands. I manage to Past in Flames and go for Tendrils.

Sideboard: none.

Game 2
I remember some advice. ''You can fight his discard with your own discard!''

Fine, I thought. I kept Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Duress, Lotus Petal, Infernal Tutor, Polluted Delta. He drops a land and pass as he mulligans again. I Duress, and he responds with Extirpate on my Polluted Delta, since it was the only target (2 swamp 2 Vampire Nighthawk in hand). Second turn, he drops a land and pass. I Cabal Therapy Nighthawk, I see a new Surgical Extraction. On his third turn, he top decks a Cabal Therapy, names Infernal Tutor, Surgical Extraction on it. I could never find a damn Burning Wish despite about 3x Ponder, 3x Probe, and 2 Brainstorm.

Game 3
Turn 0 win.


Round 4 vs Death & Taxes: 0-2

The nightmare continues.

Game 1
I win my first dice roll. Yay! That's the only thing I win. I mulligan twice as I have no lands. He OBLITERATES ME.

I open with a Duress, I see Phyrexian Revoker, Thalia, Stoneforge Mystic, Swords to Plowshares, that new flying Thalia thing, Flagstone and Cavern of Soul. I just can't go off before he overwhelms me.

Sideboard: +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Pyroclasm, -4 Ponder, -2 Duress. I want to go as fast as possible, instead of trying to survive his wave of control and try to play the control game myself. Guess what, it didn't work anyway.

Game 2
Before the game even starts, he drops two new Leyline of Sanctity. Honestly, I'm fine with it. I'll just go Empty the Warrens, it should be enough. I'll just take a turn to cantrip and settled for next turn... On his turn? Chalice @0. He passes. Well, I'll just cantrips this way instead, I'll surely go next turn, right? Chalice @1. Oh my. At least I have a Bayou, I'll wait until Abrupt Decay. I pass. Ethersworn Canonist, Ghost Quarter on my Bayou.

Yes, you may argue I shouldn't have played that Bayou early as it was my only green source available at that time. I'll admit it and learn from it. But by turn 3, TURN 3, he had:

2 Leylines of Sancticty
1 Chalice of the Void @ 0
1 Chalice of the Void @ 1
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghost Quarter on Bayou

That means, I had 0 answers at that point. No Abrupt Decay as I couldn't pay the green because I couldn't have artifacts because I couldn't bounce the Chalice because he had an other Chalice that I couldn't bounce either. I don't know. The main reason I don't play Cabal Ritual is because, while I think it's helpful vs Miracles and other slow decks, I want to go all-in almost all the time in my meta. If I was to play control with them, I would play a control deck. Chrome Mox seems to be a must to win fast anyway. Cabal Ritual would have given me mana for what anyway? Cast an Empty the Warrens after a bunch of countered artifacts? Like he didn't play Stoneforge Mystic by turn 4.

It hurts so bad that I don't even know if the general call, the strategy, the plan to go fast is good anymore. Also, while I felt sweepers were nice before, I don't see them as good because the main hate doesn't come from Thalia anymore, it became the icing. But yet nothing would help me go faster in the sideboard anyway. I only see one solution anymore: Shattering Spree. How I wish I had a few copies before our tournament. I mean, yes, the Abrupt Decays were bad to have since I couldn't cast them, but I see it was more a mistake of mine, maybe, than a bad sideboard call. I now get why they were called so slow and I understand that completely after tonight, but yet, as painful as it is, they were the only answer I had. Shattering Spree would have been 500% better in this case...

Our next evening is Saturday, and while the game counts, it's usually more relax as it's a free night: we don't pay on the prize pool, and absences aren't penalized. I wouldn't mind losing a few games there to test new things for Thursday.

I'll take all the reviews you guys can have.

Thanks a lot!

-Alexandre

[Asthereal]

A nice way to look at the scenario: Run a totally unnecessary card for a fringe situation, which would possibly have been evadable and against all odds of your opponent hitting Daze/Pierce/FoW/Bolt, which also still leaves doubts about you being able to win after spinning the roulette.

Basically we're talking about "ifs" as a result of running a narrow card in the first place. I think the discussion about "rather scooping" is ergo as vit off if you ask me
Well, Lem, the man is not wrong. You die or you DimRit. If you have it, that is. And then after DimRit you most likely die regardless, but there is a chance you actually win from there. But all the info we have points to DimRit or scoop.

If I find space I still run it, because every tournament I end up in sad situations where DimRit is the only way, albeit a bad way. But I like to have options. My Wish board is always bigger than Bryants main list, and after every slightly bigger tournament, I was glad I had those options.

Try not to judge too harshly simply because you have experience and good results. Not everyone has the same preferences, and I am pretty sure you will do well with my lists too.

[Lemnear]

Well, Lem, the man is not wrong. You die or you DimRit. If you have it, that is. And then after DimRit you most likely die regardless, but there is a chance you actually win from there. But all the info we have points to DimRit or scoop.

If I find space I still run it, because every tournament I end up in sad situations where DimRit is the only way, albeit a bad way. But I like to have options. My Wish board is always bigger than Bryants main list, and after every slightly bigger tournament, I was glad I had those options.

Try not to judge too harshly simply because you have experience and good results. Not everyone has the same preferences, and I am pretty sure you will do well with my lists too.

You have three more possible option here: combo earlier; sculpt a different line of win before you are in such a situation which leaves you no outs; mulligan a sketchy hand which leaves you to the luck of topdecking into business while playing a deck with 40% mana.

I suspect you can get around a lot of these iffy situations from the start, but we can't prepare for everyone of these, but have to make a cut. We sure can find situations for IGG, Meltdown and others if we force them, but that doesn't make including them a smart use of SB slots

I have unfortunately no idea about the starting grip or earlier turns so I can evaluate better and see if there would have been better options or options at all. It sounds however like he had at least three turns and I wonder what happend in these. The only information I have from these turns is that he casted Probe(s) (potential plural) which is something I would not do early in most cases. From what he has written it looks like if he saved the Probe(s) and Discard he could have killed his opponent with natural storm (which would have renders DimRet pointless once more). Pure guess at this point however. Aggressive cantripping against Daze/Wasteland/Delver is a no-go often unless you otherwise miss your second and third landdrop.

[Dr_D]

You have three more possible option here: combo earlier; sculpt a different line of win before you are in such a situation which leaves you no outs; mulligan a sketchy hand which leaves you to the luck of topdecking into business while playing a deck with 40% mana.

I suspect you can get around a lot of these iffy situations from the start, but we can't prepare for everyone of these, but have to make a cut. We sure can find situations for IGG, Meltdown and others if we force them, but that doesn't make including them a smart use of SB slots

I have unfortunately no idea about the starting grip or earlier turns so I can evaluate better and see if there would have been better options or options at all. It sounds however like he had at least three turns and I wonder what happend in these. The only information I have from these turns is that he casted Probe(s) (potential plural) which is something I would not do early in most cases. From what he has written it looks like if he saved the Probe(s) and Discard he could have killed his opponent with natural storm (which would have renders DimRet pointless once more). Pure guess at this point however. Aggressive cantripping against Daze/Wasteland/Delver is a no-go often unless you otherwise miss your second and third landdrop.

Damn Lemnear, you hit the nail on the head. I don't remember my opener exactly, but I used a few probes pretty aggressively to find a tutor/wish. Now I know, hold the probes against this kind of deck. On an unrelated note, this match was very sad for me as I beat him game 2 with goblins and would have won game 3 after stripping force, but I had to pass as I was one mana short of casting ad naus. Naturally there was a force on top waiting for me when I tried to go off the turn after.

Edit: Forgot to say thanks again for your wisdom. I really want to learn this deck like I know DDFT, which I've played for 3ish years. It's incredibly painful for me not knowing what the best lines are every game.

[Final Fortune]

Point of conjecture, but does playing Cabal Ritual/Rain of Filth improve the aggro-control match up so much as just not playing Chrome Mox? What about the 8th Fetchland, 3rd Underground Sea and 3rd Duress? Do we just want to become a more consistent T2 combo deck, where all combinantions of Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish + Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame + Lion's Eye Diamond + Any 2 lands gives us at least T2 Empty the Warrens?

Edit: After testing the shit out of Rain of Filth in storm, it isn't the total number of lands that makes Rain of Filth good, it's the total number of basic lands. The problem with Lemnear's list was that it didn't have access to Empty the Warrens or Swamp, which meant it couldn't rely on using Rain of Filth as a T2 "Black" Rite of Flame into Empy the Warrens vs Wasteland.dec

Theoretical list, taking it to a local tomorrow.

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre (Or Telemin Performance)
2 Chain of Vapour
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Bayou (I will never play a card that has less marginal utility than Swamp MD for game 1)

[Bryant Cook]

For those of you not in the facebook group, I played in a small local last night. One game each round was won using Dark Petition to either fuel a Tutor chain or get Ad Nauseam, it was awesome to have 2 Chrome Mox post-Petition/Ad Nauseam as you spend a lot of resources getting to that point. Cabal Ritual as awesome there as well, providing the mana to be able to Petition.

[Pelikanudo]

For those of you not in the facebook group, I played in a small local last night. One game each round was won using Dark Petition to either fuel a Tutor chain or get Ad Nauseam, it was awesome to have 2 Chrome Mox post-Petition/Ad Nauseam as you spend a lot of resources getting to that point. Cabal Ritual as awesome there as well, providing the mana to be able to Petition.
Thanks for sharing my friend. snif.

Is there any possibility to join the Facebook again???
I'm sooo sorry, but you started this shit... I am the way I am...

please please, I hate all these social media... and that was the unique group I joined...


EDIT:
Final Fortune:
For me RoFilth is crap in TES because:
a) with 0 lands it produces -1 mana
b) with 1 lands it only produces +0 mana
c) with 2 lands it only produces +1 mana
d) this card needs to have at least a basic in play in order to be okish vs Wasteland - the only thing I suggested.

If you conceive TES as a fast Deck - this card has not synergy with a) to d)

EDIT 2: Related to the latest post about D.Returns I will point the following I stated:

IF you reach THAT scenario D.Returns is the way to go. Simple.

you Lemnear says something like:
2+2+2 = 6

I only said:
2 + 2 = 4

Both is true.

[Final Fortune]

I didn't like Rain of Filth either when I first started testing it because I wanted T1 wins too, then I realized the problem with Cabal Ritual in TnT was that it's 2cc prevented the deck from casting Burning Wish on T2 where Rain of Filth's 1cc didn't. So as long as the deck had a Swamp or a Fetchland to sit on vs Wasteland, it met the minimum requirement for enabling a T2 Empty the Warrens while scaling with land drops over the mid-game. It was the best, worst 1xRitual at achieving the stated goal and allowed me to cut the last Chrome Mox from the list. I would also much rather have Island in the deck in order to have a reliable B->BBB Ritual on T3 like ANT does, but the problem with Island is that it does not allow a T2 Empty the Warrens off of any combination of tutors, rituals and lands so it's a non starter :/ Both of your conditions C) and D) are completely acceptable, but it's 1 card in a 75 card deck so cut it for another Underground Sea or Duress if you don't like it.

I tried to combine a lot of different people's observations in that list, like the 4th MD Infernal Tutor and 1 SB Dark Petition, 3rd Duress, 8th Fetchland, cutting Chrome Mox altogether, keeping a MD Empty the Warrens, adding a Rain of Filth, SBing the Bayou and increasing the land count in order to become a more aggressive TnT. I don't care about losing the T1 win%, because those wins aren't protected by discard. I care about keeping the T2 win % the same, but gaining a more consistent manabase that doesn't Imprint cards for mono color land drops. More Fetchlands and Underground Seas just happen to be really fucking good at doing that, so I think I realize what Lemnear was trying to say while finding a better way to articulate it with my card choices.

I can confidently say what the difference between TnT and this version of TES actually is; all of the Fetchlands, the basic lands and the Rituals of the manabase are designed to disrupt on T1 and combo on T2 as aggressively as possible where the Island and Cabal Rituals of TnT mean it's fundamentally a T3 deck and thus too slow vs hate bears, spheres or Hymn to Tourach strategies. Basically, it's Lemnear's list without the bad card choices, like 2xBayou, 2nd Rain of Filth and no MD Empty the Warrens so you have lands that aren't just awful game 1, no unnecessarily redundant copies of Rain of Filth and a 4cc target for Infernal Tutor and it's a massive improvement on both consistency and speed. The caveat is that it all comes down to how the deck combos, if we're leaning so hard on Empty the Warrens T2 does that allow our opponent's to take advantage of us with sweepers, and if we aren't how reliable is Ad Nauseam with just 4 Lotus Petal for the T1, T2 and T3 wins?

[Lemnear]

Damn Lemnear, you hit the nail on the head. I don't remember my opener exactly, but I used a few probes pretty aggressively to find a tutor/wish. Now I know, hold the probes against this kind of deck. On an unrelated note, this match was very sad for me as I beat him game 2 with goblins and would have won game 3 after stripping force, but I had to pass as I was one mana short of casting ad naus. Naturally there was a force on top waiting for me when I tried to go off the turn after.

Edit: Forgot to say thanks again for your wisdom. I really want to learn this deck like I know DDFT, which I've played for 3ish years. It's incredibly painful for me not knowing what the best lines are every game.

You're welcome, buddy. Against Wasteland and/or Daze, I tend to slowroll as their disruption easily gets totally worthless if you just drop fetchlands and pass for turns and Force them to act instead of just sitting back on their cheap disruption and hope you walk right into it. You can say it's a lot like people should play Grinding Station (shoutout to Jona) and simply watch your opponents disruption getting worthless automatically over time. I ran 14 lands in Lille to slowroll the game on purpose against all Delver/Daze/Wastelands decks and lost not a single match because they can't deal with you anymore once you have 3+ lands in play. Almost any time I was aware of facing a tempo deck, I immediately switched the gameplan.


Point of conjecture, but does playing Cabal Ritual/Rain of Filth improve the aggro-control match up so much as just not playing Chrome Mox? What about the 8th Fetchland, 3rd Underground Sea and 3rd Duress? Do we just want to become a more consistent T2 combo deck, where all combinantions of Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish + Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame + Lion's Eye Diamond + Any 2 lands gives us at least T2 Empty the Warrens?

Edit: After testing the shit out of Rain of Filth in storm, it isn't the total number of lands that makes Rain of Filth good, it's the total number of basic lands. The problem with Lemnear's list was that it didn't have access to Empty the Warrens or Swamp, which meant it couldn't rely on using Rain of Filth as a T2 "Black" Rite of Flame into Empy the Warrens vs Wasteland.dec

I feel this is in direct relation to the previous quoted post. I would not say Rains strengh scales in relation to Basics but in relation to land you can drop without getting one needlessly destroyed (Fetchlands). As stated before, I play a lot of "fechland, go" against the decks which pressure your manabase and basically skip on AN completely. I also save my cantrips as I don't want to expose myself to Wasteland if I open with fetch->Volcanic->Ponder or the like. I prefer EoT Brainstorms followed by fetch to avoid presenting lands as easy choice targets, untap and combo.


I didn't like Rain of Filth either when I first started testing it because I wanted T1 wins too, then I realized the problem with Cabal Ritual in TnT was that it's 2cc prevented the deck from casting Burning Wish on T2 where Rain of Filth's 1cc didn't.

Exactly. The total requirement of two IMS' makes quite a difference to running with Cabal Ritual or the TNT layout in general. Therefore, I was so confused seeing the build linked to "turn 4 combo" or ANT/TNT speed in general


So as long as the deck had a Swamp or a Fetchland to sit on vs Wasteland, it met the minimum requirement for enabling a T2 Empty the Warrens while scaling with land drops over the mid-game. It was the best, worst 1xRitual at achieving the stated and allowed me to cut the last Chrome Mox from the list.

Yes. I increased the fechlands to 8 on purpose to enables sitting on these Fetchlands until I really want to crack them, disabling my opponents to dictate the games pace with their manadenial, but remain in the driver seat. I shifted the focus away from the T1 combo with intent as I felt the price we pay with Moxen is too High every time we cannot combo turn 1.


I would also much rather have Island in the deck in order to have a reliable B->BBB Ritual on T3 like ANT does, but the problem with Island is that it does not allow a T2 Empty the Warrens off of any combination of tutors, rituals and lands so it's a non starter :/ Both of your conditions C) and D) are completely acceptable, but it's 1 card in a 75 card deck so cut it for another Underground Sea or Duress if you don't like it.

Between not waning to run SB lands and neither limiting my options via Basics (especially the Island), I felt forced to make the tradeoff of potentially open a hand with Bayou preboard. I didn't saw another option tbh, so I had to Bank on the 8 Fetchlands and/or opponents lacking timed Wastelands.


I tried to combine a lot of different people's observations in that list, like the 4th MD Infernal Tutor and 1 SB Dark Petition, 3rd Duress, 8th Fetchland, cutting Chrome Mox altogether, keeping a MD Empty the Warrens, adding a Rain of Filth, SBing the Bayou and increasing the land count in order to become a more aggressive TnT.

EtW underperformed for me and I wanted to be able to be more aggressive with AN flips (just because I cut the Moxen and may need those additional cards to find mana) so I cut the MB copy, but I sure understand if you want to keep it. 7 Discard maybe is a bit excessive unless you play a lot against OmniTell or hard control (drew a bit too much if these in Lille imo). Increasing the landcount improves your ability to "land, go" against Daze and/or Wasteland as well as improving your Rains to overpower softcounters while also improving Mulligans. For me that step was desirable and payed off.


I don't care about losing the T1 win%, because those wins aren't protected by discard. I care about keeping the T2 win % the same, but gaining a more consistent manabase that doesn't Imprint cards for mono color land drops. More Fetchlands and Underground Seas just happen to be really fucking good at doing that, so I think I realize what Lemnear was trying to say while finding a better way to articulate it with my card choices.

Well, if you drop your second land turn two, you even increase your turn 2 percentage Overall, not only because of Rain but because your second IMS doesn't cost two cards. From there cards like Rain are scaling while Moxen become lackluster aside flipping them to AN. I did admit from the start that running w/o Moxen decrease your T1 combo outs, but those are not only unprotected against a field of 75% FoW decks in the first place but REQUIRED against an even smaller potion of possible decks (D&T on the draw, MUD, etc.), which was my outlined point to simply say "fuck these 6% of matchups" and accept the disadvantage over the traditional build to gain advantages against like anything else you seem to have experienced as well.


I can confidently say what the difference between TnT and this version of TES actually is; all of the Fetchlands, the basic lands and the Rituals of the manabase are designed to disrupt on T1 and combo on T2 as aggressively as possible where the Island and Cabal Rituals of TnT mean it's fundamentally a T3 deck and thus too slow vs hate bears, spheres or Hymn to Tourach strategies. Basically, it's Lemnear's list without the bad card choices, like 2xBayou, 2nd Rain of Filth and no MD Empty the Warrens so you have lands that aren't just awful game 1, no unnecessarily redundant copies of Rain of Filth and a 4cc target for Infernal Tutor and it's a massive improvement on both consistency and speed.

I'm totally fine questioning the cardchoices in particular. I outlined why I ran two Rains (as I wanted to see like 1 each game pre- or post-AN) and two Bayous (keep Decays boardable against Wasteland + Chalice). For me it was simply important that the concept of an improved turn 2+ and being able to grind out Daze/Wasteland is understood and evaluated by the community. With that being said, I'm a bit irritated that Bryant cut a land (now 12) while I added one (now 14). I need to find the reason for these totally different conclusions.


The caveat is that it all comes down to how the deck combos, if we're leaning so hard on Empty the Warrens T2 does that allow our opponent's to take advantage of us with sweepers, and if we aren't how reliable is Ad Nauseam with just 4 Lotus Petal for the T1, T2 and T3 wins?

The big question mark floating above EtW (especially postboard) is a significant point for discussion imo and implies to ask ourselves how many tradeoffs we accept just for running the quick (MB) EtW (which I feel is directly linked to the Chrome Moxen to Balance out the 4cc to flip to AN). I, for myself, concluded that the price I pay for the potential 5 additional outs to combo (natural EtW in hand and 6-mana playlines with Infernal) are not worth being forced to run with Moxen and stopping at 4 life with AN. I'm fine if other peoples conclusion differs.


Thanks for sharing my friend. snif.

Is there any possibility to join the Facebook again???
I'm sooo sorry, but you started this shit... I am the way I am...

please please, I hate all these social media... and that was the unique group I joined...

You are both grown up men. Settle this civilised between you two. I don't know why I suddenly have PMs as I don't have anything to do with that stuff at all. (P.S.: I have not read your message so far, just noticed you writing me. I'm working through the weekend as usual, so I don't have time to deal with PMs/Article Reviews/etc. which are all in my message/eMail/Facebook folder. Sorry for everyone who tried to contact me. I'll do this stuff Monday)


EDIT:
Final Fortune:
For me RoFilth is crap in TES because:
a) with 0 lands it produces -1 mana
b) with 1 lands it only produces +0 mana
c) with 2 lands it only produces +1 mana
d) this card needs to have at least a basic in play in order to be okish vs Wasteland - the only thing I suggested.

If you keep hands with 0 lands you need to have a damn good reason in this metagame. It cycles for storm with 1 land in play for EtW which is about as much as playing a Mox w/o imprint. With two or more lands it's already miles better than Mox and that's the point I'm making especially as I run more lands in the first place making case a) less likely in general

You don't need a basic, a Fetchland is enough. I simply don't understand the idea of needlessly exposing lands to Wasteland. You DO NOT HAVE to cast T1 Ponder/Discard vs. Wasteland.dec. Case d) is an idiotic metric to gauge Rain or Cabal Ritual


If you conceive TES as a fast Deck - this card has not synergy with a) to d)

You don't see a difference between Mox vs. Rain/Cabal in terms of mana/cardinvestment especially of your opponent holds defense? You ignore the whole purpose of these changes by pointing to the turn 1 combo. I dunno how many times I stated it till now: Cabal Ritual and Rain both bank on two plus IMS' (preferable: lands) to improve your turn 2/3/etc. odds against decks with defense. Making points based on hands/configurations which feature 1 IMS at max is pointless. At this point we can point at IT + Rite + 1 IMS or Wish + Ritual + IMS and throw the whole deck over board simply because your rule out having black+red mana in the first place.


EDIT 2: Related to the latest post about D.Returns I will point the following I stated:

IF you reach THAT scenario D.Returns is the way to go. Simple.

If you reach that scenario you likely made at least one mistake on the way leading there. Simple.

[Final Fortune]

I think the basic and the 3rd Duress are important because it lets you play Fetchland->Swamp->Duress vs unknown opponents with no risk to Wasteland, and I like the option of being able to cast discard, or in the case of Island cantrips, instead of sitting on the Fetchland because you better utilize your mana. There's an opportunity cost to not sacrifing a Fetchland where the opportunity cost to playing a basic is less clear, in ANT the opportunity cost is practically nill because it's only a 2 color deck and there's a high necessity of casting 5+ Sorcery cantrips asap.

I just don't see a reason to play Bayou MD, 2xBayou aside, there are no other wish targets I want to play beyond Massacre and 3 Abrupt Decay and 2 Xantid Swarm are sufficient. I think 2xBayou, or Bayou and Swamp, is a strain on mulligans, and I would sooner cut the Swamp for the 4th Underground Sea at this point.

I think the problem with cutting Empty the Warrens from the MD is that it makes the deck a T3 combo deck more often than not. Considering Empty the Warrens is at it's strongest game 1, it makes more sense to be the Empty Warrens deck with Ad Nauseam back up rather than just an Ad Nauseam deck. Those T2 Empty the Warrens plays are very relevant vs D&T/MUD, and if that's our primary kill condition then the Chrome Mox issue is irrelevant until we're facing a deck against whom Empty the Warrens is risky - and by all accounts those decks don't pressure your life total quickly. I feel very strongly the deck is "3 color Goblin aggro" game 1, but you can SB it out for a better Ad Nauseam deck game 2.

Also, it's not as if the deck is dead in the water once it reaches the point where Ad Nauseam is no longer an option, we still have the Past in Flames chain and storming by hand available.

Edit: I've been content with a single copy of Rain over the 15th land, and I don't see a need to play the 10th ritual so far.

[LDX]

On a side note, the more I play on Cockatrice, the more I think Shattering Spree would actually be very decent in the current Legacy metagame.

All I see is Miracle hate.

Lodestone Golem, Chalice of the Void, Phyrexian Revoker, Null Rod. Countless others. By the time we find our regular answers or can win, we're locked down with Wasteland and Rishadan Ports.

For the short experience I have, I feel like I wanted Shattering Spree so many times as a ''regular part'' of the 75, instead of just it being an exception for my local meta. Because they want to get rid of Miracle as soon as game 1, the maindeck hate that affects us is very real, and if we don't win faster than they put down Chalice @ 1, we're in a rather bad spot. Burning Wish > Shattering Spree would save us from that.

I'm no math expert, but we have a 50% chance to win dice roll. With 4 Chalice of the Void main deck, or even 3, the chance of them landing a Chalice @ 1 by their turn 2 is higher than our probability to win (or at least combo) by our turn 1. Yes, we would have higher chance on the play, but again it's 50/50, and I didn't even talk about Chalice @ 0. I'm quite sure the probability of them landing a Chalice @ 0 on their turn, on draw, is higher than our chance at winning T2 without artifacts support. But then again, they must play that Chalice @ 0, in other words, know what we're going to play, which shouldn't happen. I'm just very curious to see you guys with some Shattering Spree backups, and have your opinions on them.

Sure, Shattering Spree doesn't do much vs Miracle, but I'm quite positive the decks built specially to get rid of Miracles, all added together, will make a higher % than Miracle itself.

Thoughts?

[Lemnear]

I think the basic and the 3rd Duress are important because it lets you play Fetchland->Swamp->Duress vs unknown opponents with no risk to Wasteland, and I like the option of being able to cast discard, or in the case of Island cantrips, instead of sitting on the Fetchland because you better utilize your mana. There's an opportunity cost to not sacrifing a Fetchland where the opportunity cost to playing a basic is less clear, in ANT the opportunity cost is practically nill because it's only a 2 color deck and there's a high necessity of casting 5+ Sorcery cantrips asap.

I hate this classic T1 Duress/Probe just to see what I'm up against if I can't follow up with the combo. It's such a revealing play and signals your opponent to cantrip in her/his turn 1 into countermagic/discard rather than into threats. Really not my kind of strategic play at all. Mana shortage or knowing to face a combo deck are the only reasons to cast discard BEFORE your combo turn


I just don't see a reason to play Bayou MD, 2xBayou aside, there are no other wish targets I want to play beyond Massacre and 3 Abrupt Decay and 2 Xantid Swarm are sufficient. I think 2xBayou, or Bayou and Swamp, is a strain on mulligans, and I would sooner cut the Swamp for the 4th Underground Sea at this point.

The night before the GP Mainevent I did not see an elegant solution to running more lands for Rain and against Daze/Wasteland and without having Bayou in the 60. The point is: In Europe you NEED 4 Decays and here Miracles do play 2 WASTELANDS. Running with 4 Decay and 1 Bayou against those Miracles or Loam+Chalice is pretty loose.


I think the problem with cutting Empty the Warrens from the MD is that it makes the deck a T3 combo deck more often than not. Considering Empty the Warrens is at it's strongest game 1, it makes more sense to be the Empty Warrens deck with Ad Nauseam back up rather than just an Ad Nauseam deck.

In practice (and cornercases like MUD/D&T/etc. aside) the "turn 3" doesn't necessarily qualify as a problem itself given that EtW needs at least two turns to win anyways and we often play beyond turn 4 against Delver variants or countermagic more often than not. I rather ship a turn and combo with AN turn 3 (via IT, which is the metric for the MB EtW) than cast EtW turn 2 which will never kill before turn 4. From a theoretical POV, AN is the faster kill with less variance depending on your opponent and his/her outs.

Aside some exceptions like Miracles EtW is in fact best game 1, but that was never the question. It is: Is EtW, while looking both at pre- & postboard games, worth the deckbuilding tradeoffs and disadvantages it comes with (Moxen)? Can you justify the Moxen in postboard games given how often we side out EtW in general?


Those T2 Empty the Warrens plays are very relevant vs D&T/MUD, and if that's our primary kill condition then the Chrome Mox issue is irrelevant until we're facing a deck against whom Empty the Warrens is risky - and by all accounts those decks don't pressure your life total quickly. I feel very strongly the deck is "3 color Goblin aggro" game 1, but you can SB it out for a better Ad Nauseam deck game 2.

I agree @ D&T & Co. but that's an imo marginal amount of decks in the average tournament and as long as we run removal for the turn two Hatebears/Chalice/etc nothing is automatically lost if we can't win turn 1/2. EtW is good against Tempo decks, but the first Problem is getting to 6+ mana to cast EtW in the first place and Moxen are not quite the support you might want to see in your hand. If we're the better AN deck postboard is questionable if the gameplan is to overcome Daze/Wasteland/Pierce by 2-for-1 yourself for a mere mana to get to a total of 7 somehow for IT->AN. The Problem with Mox to support anything aside the T1 (maybe turn 2) All-In is real.


Also, it's not as if the deck is dead in the water once it reaches the point where Ad Nauseam is no longer an option, we still have the Past in Flames chain and storming by hand available.

Depends. Imprinting cards into a Mox is nothing you want to do if you opt to combo your opponent out naturally. Neither is playing Mox w/o imprint (given we still talk about the builds with Moxen here). You also have to work towards the Natural kill right from the beginning which also rules out the turn 1 Duress we were talking about earlier.


Edit: I've been content with a single copy of Rain over the 15th land, and I don't see a need to play the 10th ritual so far.

It was just that I wanted to see a single copy in most games (Either pre- or post-AN). It sure Sucks in multiples like pre-combo Moxen unlike Cabal Rituals

[Final Fortune]

I wasn't arguing for Chrome Mox, all of the points I made were based on the list I posted - which doesn't have a single copy. You don't need Chrome Mox in order to make MD Empty the Warrens good, if all you do is play with Empty the Warrens game 1 and SB it for games 2/3 then I'd rather have the options than not. All of your arguments against Empty the Warrens in the article were about it being bad post-board vs Young Pyromancer hate, but that's not really an argument for playing without it game 1 and I don't see why you'd SB a 2nd Empty the Warrens over a 2nd Bayou if you're just going to play with another brick in your SB. I know Ad Nauseam ends the game before Empty the Warrens, but Empty the Warrens wins the game before Ad Nauseam because it's when you go off, not when you kill your opponent that's relevant in some match ups.

Call it player preference, but I don't really like not having the option of being able to Fetch Swamp and conserve mana vs Unknown.dec in a tournament or bad land draws that get blown up by Wasteland for no reason game 1.

I'd still rather cut Xantid Swarm and SB the 2nd Bayou or a Tropical Island as well if 4 Abrupt Decay are that important - I'd also seriously think about Wipe Away. I don't really understand what your guy's hang up is about SBing lands when you've wanted to SB Carpet of Flowers before, it's like the same thing but get you better mulligans as a bonus.

That's actually kind of a possible point against Swamp, whether or not once you cut Xantid Swarm do you want 2 Bayou as opposed to Bayou and Tropical Island since you would need Misty Rainforest for it. Still, basics are just fucking good.

[Lemnear]

I wasn't arguing for Chrome Mox, all of the points I made were based on the list I posted - which doesn't have a single copy. You don't need Chrome Mox in order to make MD Empty the Warrens good, if all you do is play with Empty the Warrens game 1 and SB it for games 2/3 then I'd rather have the options than not.

It was more in context of AN math if you have 1 accelerant less than me but a whooping 4cc sorcery to flip for AN. Stopping @4 vs. @2 is a significant difference. Is it more relevantthan having the EtW playline? I dunno. Space for discussion ;)


All of your arguments against Empty the Warrens in the article were about it being bad post-board vs Young Pyromancer hate, but that's not really an argument for playing without it game 1 and I don't see why you'd SB a 2nd Empty the Warrens over a 2nd Bayou if you're just going to play with another brick in your SB.

There are matchups like D&T or MUD where I consider the MB EtW really good. I want to board ALL EtWs in against Tempo and Miracles in the future so I have low commitment 4 mana playlines (aka evade blowouts by going all-in in etw and get the Goblins sweeped) to pressure opponents w/o going all in. It's the complete opposite of a brick for these matchups.


I know Ad Nauseam ends the game before Empty the Warrens, but Empty the Warrens wins the game before Ad Nauseam because it's when you go off, not when you kill your opponent that's relevant in some match ups.

And for the matchups which I want to combo really fast, I want several EtWs to draw them naturally for even cheaper combo attempts


I'd still rather cut Xantid Swarm and SB the 2nd Bayou or a Tropical Island as well if 4 Abrupt Decay are that important - I'd also seriously think about Wipe Away. I don't really understand what your guy's hang up is about SBing lands when you've wanted to SB Carpet of Flowers before, it's like the same thing but get you better mulligans as a bonus.

I don't play SB Carpets. I hate the idea of SB mana and thus I rather moved more lands into the MB against Daze/Wasteland than boarding Carpets. It's not that the cards concept is significantly different from Cabal Ritual or Rain in terms of longer games.


That's actually kind of a possible point against Swamp, whether or not once you cut Xantid Swarm do you want 2 Bayou as opposed to Bayou and Tropical Island since you would need Misty Rainforest for it. Still, basics are just fucking good.

Tropical does nothing for your combo which still is a big minus everytime you consider fetching for it or see it in your opener as the infamous "wasteable Basic Island". The card has a place for the cantrip-heavy ANT lists (feat. 2+ Preordain) with heavy green Sideboard, but as I'm not the guy for greedy turn 1 Ponders against unknown anyways, I don't see advantages of Tropical vs Bayou in general (in TES)

[Bryant Cook]

Streaming: http://www.theepicstorm.com/twitch-tv/

[Lemnear]

Game 2
I keep a Lion's Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Chain of Vapor, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Underground Sea, Ponder. He mulligans to 5 again, and it becomes a Turn 2 Ad Nauseam for the win. I however would like one tip: once again, I ''forgot'' to play both LED + Petal by the end of my turn, after a Ponder with which I hid a Tutor. It had no consequence as I still won, but I went off with 0 floating mana instead of 3, as he took a LED with a Hymn to Tourach. Now of course, my girlfriend is rather pretty and can easily be a distraction, but is there any general tip to these simple mistakes? I've been told enough to play these artifacts before they get discarded and I keep losing some game to that. Is it only a matter of experience?

I can only urge to think twice before passing the turn in general. This includes dropping Artifacts or not and, a personal favorite, checking for Therapies in the Graveyard if you cast EtW that turn. Cast EtW -> Check graveyard for Therapies. This need to be a Mantra.


Round 2 vs Reanimator: 1-2

Game 1
It's his first time playing with us. He knows Reanimator is rather good in our meta, and specially good vs TES. I'm afraid as I know the importance of this game. I lose the dice roll again, I think I lose. I keep Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Cabal Therapy, Bloodstained mire, Underground Sea. On his turn, he drops Lotus Petal, and Ponder with his Underground Sea. He shuffles. He plays a second Petal, and Thoughtseize me.

As a general Reanimator player, what would hurt me the most? What should have been his choice? He took off my Ponder and I felt like this was the best way to hurt me, for sure, but I wonder if someone else have a different idea.

Stripping ponder was correct.


[/He plays a third Petal, and I get to play my first turn. I draw, luckily, a Ponder. I go for Gitaxian Probe (paid with life) that shows me an Entomb and an Iona. I'm so afraid! I go straight Cabal Therapy on Entomb. Bad mistake. Of course, as I cast my Cabal Therapy, he responds with Entomb as it is an instant. Not only did I waste a Cabal Therapy, I also lost a turn as I could have Ponder. I'm pissed. However, while he has a Griselbrand in the grave, he only has an Iona in hand.

I wrote about the snapcall Therapies in our PM, so I skip it here.


I manage to draw a LED, then an other off a Ponder, and go for the kill T3. What I'm proud the most is how I played around Daze the whole time: with a single LED, two Petal and two lands, I chose to Brainstorm before going off, just in case to see more mana and dodge Daze. I drew an other LED! I knew I was going this turn and would have paid the mana for Daze, but that would have left me with only 4 mana after the Infernal Tutor, for a bad Empty the Warren instead of Ad Nauseam. Long story short, dodged Daze, was nice.

Sideboard: +3 Xantid Swarm, +2 Chain of Vapor, -1 Empty the Warrens, -2 Ponder, -2 Chrome Mox, -1(something). I forgot the list itself, but I remembered how useful the Xantid were in my playtests, and thought it would be fun to bounce a Griselbrand after the draws. Yeah, I learned it doesn't work like that. Now I know boarding Chrome Mox & Ponder out should be rather bad (general rule is, Ponder out vs fast games, Moxen out vs long game, correct?), but I felt like this was a long matchup (it was), and I remembered Ponder was often left out. The logic, aftermath, was bad but there was logic in there at least.

Game 2
I made a crucial mistake there that may not have given me a win, but that at least wouldn't have left me such a bitter taste. I keep Infernal Tutor, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Gitaxian Probe, Cabal Therapy, Bloodstained Mire, Burning Wish I think. He's on the play as I won last game. He fetches, and pass. I draw Duress. Of course I lead with that, and he casts Entomb in response. I see Exhume, Exhume, Brainstorm, Ponder. I don't want to die, so I take out Ponder, and play Lotus Petal into Cabal Therapy to remove the Exhume. Smart move, I thought. He went on his turn 2 with only a Brainstorm in hand and a Griselbrand in graveyard. He draws a fetch, plays Brainstorm.

He plays Reanimate. Fuck.

Gogo Chain of Vapor? I draw a Chrome Mox. I play Gitaxian Probe, see no threats, I draw Rite of Flame. To me, it seems like the only thing to do, if I want to win, is to remove the Griselbrand. It seems like Burning Wish for Void Snare is the best. Of course, he's at like, 10 life, so he can still activate Griselbrand and fuck me up. I'm aware of this, but I'll force him to. I kind of pray, I tell to myself, I'll need backups after I removed his Griselbrand. I chose to keep the Chrome Mox and Infernal Tutor in hand. I was greedy.

What happened? I played Lotus Petal > Rite of Flame > Burning Wish, leaving me an untapped land for Void Snare. I chose not to imprint a Chrome Mox to pay the Daze cost will full conscience. Guess what, it was the bad choice. He didn't even draw a Force of Will, only a Daze. I think I would have won if I played properly because my graveyard was ready for a Past in Flame, or close to at least. I do believe I would have recovered faster. He would have been at 3 life! What an easy Grapeshot kill too!

Lol


Game 3
I keep Swamp, Polluted Delta, Lotus Petal, Xantid Swarm, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe. I open with Gitaxian Probe. I see Island, Lotus Petal, Iona, Reanimate, Thoughtseize, Careful Study Entomb. I play Delta and go. I guess I could have played Brainstorm right away and hope to draw a discard to play on the Petal, but I'm not sure if it would have been the right play. Thoughts?

If you want to catch a Spell here, you have to Brainstorm off the Petal and Fetch afterwards to no BS lock yourself. I doubt it would have made much of a difference tbh.


He drops a land, and drop a Petal to Entomb/Reanimate Griselbrand. Turn 1, again. I lose shortly after, as I can't find anything useful on the Brainstorm. Xantid felt so slow in this game, but I guess it was just badluck over the bad card. I don't know, I wouldn't cut them because of this single occurence at least.

Round 3 vs The Gate: 2-0

Game 1
Bruno is my nemesis player, but he doesn't feel good tonight. I of course lose the dice roll and I am on the draw. I keep Lotus Petal, Brainstorm, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Gitaxian Probe, Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire. He does nothing turn 1 (he mull'), I drop Petal to avoid discard, and play the Ponder I draw. On his turn, he plays Hymn, I have nothing that important to be honest. It seems ok to me. I draw a LED, I pay the Probe cost. I see Faerie Macabre (I won't go Past in Flames I guess), Vampire Nighthawk, Liliana, Gatekeeper. He doesn't have a third land anyway. I build a bit, I try to go for a good Rite of Flame/Ad Nauseam, but I totally forgot he could cripple my Rite of Flame mana. I end up being screwed on this, as it leaves me at 5 mana instead of the 7 expected: I can't Burning Wish + Past in Flames this turn. I go for Grapeshot for 7 and expect to flashback it later. He plays Lilianas, but it's not enough as I draw Cabal Therapies with him having no hands, or extra lands. I manage to Past in Flames and go for Tendrils.

Sideboard: none.

Game 2
I remember some advice. ''You can fight his discard with your own discard!''

Fine, I thought. I kept Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Duress, Lotus Petal, Infernal Tutor, Polluted Delta. He drops a land and pass as he mulligans again. I Duress, and he responds with Extirpate on my Polluted Delta, since it was the only target (2 swamp 2 Vampire Nighthawk in hand). Second turn, he drops a land and pass. I Cabal Therapy Nighthawk, I see a new Surgical Extraction. On his third turn, he top decks a Cabal Therapy, names Infernal Tutor, Surgical Extraction on it. I could never find a damn Burning Wish despite about 3x Ponder, 3x Probe, and 2 Brainstorm.

I should specify this. If you are on the play, Discard to fight an opposing discard Spell is fine, especially if you can profit from the time you gain by making landdrops. This isn't the case here. You can't advance your gamestate at all with these 4 discard spells and still fold to him topdecking a Thoughtseize/Hymn if he hits you Tutor.


Game 3
Turn 0 win.

Round 4 vs Death & Taxes: 0-2

The nightmare continues.

Game 1
I win my first dice roll. Yay! That's the only thing I win. I mulligan twice as I have no lands. He OBLITERATES ME.

I open with a Duress, I see Phyrexian Revoker, Thalia, Stoneforge Mystic, Swords to Plowshares, that new flying Thalia thing, Flagstone and Cavern of Soul. I just can't go off before he overwhelms me.

Sideboard: +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Pyroclasm, -4 Ponder, -2 Duress. I want to go as fast as possible, instead of trying to survive his wave of control and try to play the control game myself. Guess what, it didn't work anyway.

Game 2
Before the game even starts, he drops two new Leyline of Sanctity. Honestly, I'm fine with it. I'll just go Empty the Warrens, it should be enough. I'll just take a turn to cantrip and settled for next turn... On his turn? Chalice @0. He passes. Well, I'll just cantrips this way instead, I'll surely go next turn, right? Chalice @1. Oh my. At least I have a Bayou, I'll wait until Abrupt Decay. I pass. Ethersworn Canonist, Ghost Quarter on my Bayou.

Well, yeah


Yes, you may argue I shouldn't have played that Bayou early as it was my only green source available at that time. I'll admit it and learn from it. But by turn 3, TURN 3, he had:

2 Leylines of Sancticty
1 Chalice of the Void @ 0
1 Chalice of the Void @ 1
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghost Quarter on Bayou

Depending in your hand and lands, Spree would have been awesome.


That means, I had 0 answers at that point. No Abrupt Decay as I couldn't pay the green because I couldn't have artifacts because I couldn't bounce the Chalice because he had an other Chalice that I couldn't bounce either. I don't know. The main reason I don't play Cabal Ritual is because, while I think it's helpful vs Miracles and other slow decks, I want to go all-in almost all the time in my meta. If I was to play control with them, I would play a control deck. Chrome Mox seems to be a must to win fast anyway. Cabal Ritual would have given me mana for what anyway? Cast an Empty the Warrens after a bunch of countered artifacts? Like he didn't play Stoneforge Mystic by turn 4.

It hurts so bad that I don't even know if the general call, the strategy, the plan to go fast is good anymore.

You don't win against Chalice + Hatebears with Chrome Mox. The plan is too optimistic.


Also, while I felt sweepers were nice before, I don't see them as good because the main hate doesn't come from Thalia anymore, it became the icing. But yet nothing would help me go faster in the sideboard anyway. I only see one solution anymore: Shattering Spree. How I wish I had a few copies before our tournament. I mean, yes, the Abrupt Decays were bad to have since I couldn't cast them, but I see it was more a mistake of mine, maybe, than a bad sideboard call. I now get why they were called so slow and I understand that completely after tonight, but yet, as painful as it is, they were the only answer I had. Shattering Spree would have been 500% better in this case...

Our next evening is Saturday, and while the game counts, it's usually more relax as it's a free night: we don't pay on the prize pool, and absences aren't penalized. I wouldn't mind losing a few games there to test new things for Thursday.

I'll take all the reviews you guys can have.

Thanks a lot!

-Alexandre

[Pelikanudo]

I didn't like Rain of Filth either when I first started testing it because I wanted T1 wins too, then I realized the problem with Cabal Ritual in TnT was that it's 2cc prevented the deck from casting Burning Wish on T2 where Rain of Filth's 1cc didn't. So as long as the deck had a Swamp or a Fetchland to sit on vs Wasteland, it met the minimum requirement for enabling a T2 Empty the Warrens while scaling with land drops over the mid-game. It was the best, worst 1xRitual at achieving the stated goal and allowed me to cut the last Chrome Mox from the list. I would also much rather have Island in the deck in order to have a reliable B->BBB Ritual on T3 like ANT does, but the problem with Island is that it does not allow a T2 Empty the Warrens off of any combination of tutors, rituals and lands so it's a non starter :/ Both of your conditions C) and D) are completely acceptable, but it's 1 card in a 75 card deck so cut it for another Underground Sea or Duress if you don't like it.


I tried to combine a lot of different people's observations in that list, like the 4th MD Infernal Tutor and 1 SB Dark Petition, 3rd Duress, 8th Fetchland, cutting Chrome Mox altogether, keeping a MD Empty the Warrens, adding a Rain of Filth, SBing the Bayou and increasing the land count in order to become a more aggressive TnT. I don't care about losing the T1 win%, because those wins aren't protected by discard. I care about keeping the T2 win % the same, but gaining a more consistent manabase that doesn't Imprint cards for mono color land drops. More Fetchlands and Underground Seas just happen to be really fucking good at doing that, so I think I realize what Lemnear was trying to say while finding a better way to articulate it with my card choices.

I can confidently say what the difference between TnT and this version of TES actually is; all of the Fetchlands, the basic lands and the Rituals of the manabase are designed to disrupt on T1 and combo on T2 as aggressively as possible where the Island and Cabal Rituals of TnT mean it's fundamentally a T3 deck and thus too slow vs hate bears, spheres or Hymn to Tourach strategies. Basically, it's Lemnear's list without the bad card choices, like 2xBayou, 2nd Rain of Filth and no MD Empty the Warrens so you have lands that aren't just awful game 1, no unnecessarily redundant copies of Rain of Filth and a 4cc target for Infernal Tutor and it's a massive improvement on both consistency and speed. The caveat is that it all comes down to how the deck combos, if we're leaning so hard on Empty the Warrens T2 does that allow our opponent's to take advantage of us with sweepers, and if we aren't how reliable is Ad Nauseam with just 4 Lotus Petal for the T1, T2 and T3 wins?

I undestand that the difference of TES and TNT is that Cabal ritual needs to be played in 3rd turn if you want to enable a B.Wish in here, no problem.
I however don't see the reason to just sit on fetches as you boys say in here, if you want to sculpt a hand which wins on 2nd turn you need to make ponder or B.S. in order to enable a 2nd turn win most of the times to find the land/Ritual/Threat, the same can be applicable to the way B.S. is played. I sometimes play B.S. in the same turn of comboing and mainly if statistically I need a key card, If I have the mana-Threats enough to combo I just B.S. EoT.

as anote, the lack of C.M. avoids scenarios to just use B.S. in the same turn of Comboing in my opionion,

Also I just don't think sitting on fetches and just not playing ponder or Duress with a Dual is the way to go with TES, the profit of having 15 lands and among them 2 basics is that you ponder with Island or Duress with Swamp whith absolutly no fear of not reaching the desired mana in the followig turns (in TNT), if you play TES and you only play from 12 to 13 lands this is an issue, I read things like playing discard with the swamp, having the Bryant List - I believe this is unrealistic as with only 12 lands it is likely to occur a lot of mana issues and more if you have to fecth for a swamp whih leaves you with 10 lands in the deck.

Also for me the importance of having T1 wins is relevant vs Hymns, Chalice,etc and in general 2cc hateCards on the draw.



You are both grown up men. Settle this civilised between you two. I don't know why I suddenly have PMs as I don't have anything to do with that stuff at all. (P.S.: I have not read your message so far, just noticed you writing me. I'm working through the weekend as usual, so I don't have time to deal with PMs/Article Reviews/etc. which are all in my message/eMail/Facebook folder. Sorry for everyone who tried to contact me. I'll do this stuff Monday)


Ok, no problem, please could you send me a P.M about what Jamie wrote vs Miracles Strategy in the Facebook as I do not have access. this was regarding my publication of Miracles strategy. Thanks.



If you keep hands with 0 lands you need to have a damn good reason in this metagame. It cycles for storm with 1 land in play for EtW which is about as much as playing a Mox w/o imprint. With two or more lands it's already miles better than Mox and that's the point I'm making especially as I run more lands in the first place making case a) less likely in general

You don't need a basic, a Fetchland is enough. I simply don't understand the idea of needlessly exposing lands to Wasteland. You DO NOT HAVE to cast T1 Ponder/Discard vs. Wasteland.dec. Case d) is an idiotic metric to gauge Rain or Cabal Ritual


I have had enough 0 Lands Hands 1st Turns Wins with TES to have this scenario absolutly in mind.
playing TES vs wastelandsAndBlue.deck and on the play - a discard or ponder has made me win a lot of games in different scenarios to just discard a B.S. or -infinite other things I would need derived from casting ponder in st turn,

I just think TES needs to at least ponder on first turn to just have more possibilities to make a 2nd turn win, the case of discard is more relative as you invest 1 spell and if you want to make natural storm this issue may be very relevant.

I have to say that overall and vs wastelandsAndBlue.deck I had more wins with TES than with TNT and this is mainly because of the possibility of enabling more turn 1/2 wins on the spot and with EtW, as said in other posts, I really do not mind to just beeing destroyed by a wasteland after playing a duress stripping a FoW if I already have for example a Gemstone to beeing able to play whatever card I could need. When playing TNT enabling Basic to play ponder or Duress and next trying to sculp a hand to win - a lot of times this time investment results in losses. I think these aproaches are completely different and I would absolutly prefer regarding your lists (Lemnear GP Lille List)
a) to have 15 lands
b) among them 2 basics - Island and Swamp
c) the conclusion of a) and b) which is: beeing able to cast a Ponder or a B.S. whenever I need/want and everyday of the week



You don't see a difference between Mox vs. Rain/Cabal in terms of mana/cardinvestment especially of your opponent holds defense? You ignore the whole purpose of these changes by pointing to the turn 1 combo. I dunno how many times I stated it till now: Cabal Ritual and Rain both bank on two plus IMS' (preferable: lands) to improve your turn 2/3/etc. odds against decks with defense. Making points based on hands/configurations which feature 1 IMS at max is pointless. At this point we can point at IT + Rite + 1 IMS or Wish + Ritual + IMS and throw the whole deck over board simply because your rule out having black+red mana in the first place.


maybe I'm not interested in improving the 3rd combo turn of TES, I believe it has an already powerfull turn 3 wins.
I've seen 'IMS' occurrence a lot of times and what does this exactly mean? I moreless know what this means... (inmutable mana source maybe?)
As said, I understand the logic behind to make TES a super 2nd Turn stable Combo deck, but on the draw you have again the same problem vs 2cc hatecards. Also with the raise of Omnishow or ANT builds (not only D&T) I think having configured the deck as fast of possible is a thing.



If you reach that scenario you likely made at least one mistake on the way leading there. Simple.


it is ok, likely.

Apart,
I've been testing D.P. in side, sure with my Obsolete configuration of Gemstones and 3 C.M and have to say this:
a) if you don't have LED in hand and C.M. and Lands and Rituals you'll encounter scenarios in which C.M + land is the way to go for a fast kill on 2nd turn, playing B.W. in the 1st turn for D.P. into A.N.
b) if you have LED, B.W.->D.P.->A.N is still a 9 mana requirement card win, well much more better than thos D.R.!! I'll miss this card so much...

Apart II,
On my next spare time I'll be doing some testing vs miracles... not much I've had, I dont remember my last legacy torunament...

I've been evaluating options, the last I tryed which was ok or at least the less worst was 4 A.D. + 2 Xantid.
Reading ANT GP Lille Turnaments reports I believe that I will put by the moment +1 K.G. from side.

I think what happened ias the followig:

a) a Miracles player generally expects ANT as storm archetype to face, and for 2nd games usually sides out a lot of massive removal

b) if the Miracles player faces TES he/she absolutly knows that EtW is a thing to have in mind so I believe that Miracles player in general tends to side out less mass removal than vs TES.

c) Im not sure how Miracles players in GP lille will side from now on vs ANT, as I, as Control player do not conceive to loose vs a horde of Goblins - I think this will not happen anymore... for the sake of god, they have terminus and E.E....

d)I see Xantid as a card vs Miracles and Omnishow, but If I want them to make absolutly useless their removal, maybe I try other strategies like +2pyro +2 xtirpate which also is effective vs Omni show, but still not sure - I saw this in the SloshThedark strategy which also was usefull for him..., I remember when I was testing anyway 3 Extirpate and I was in deed disappointed...

e) next stuff I will test is +2 Xtirpate + 2 pyro + 4 A.D. + 1 K.G. (but I need again 2 free slots... maybe 2 Extirpate is enough - dont know...)
by the moment +1 Krosan plus the already Xantids is a thing to test...

[Final Fortune]

I realize Island and Tropical Island delay the fundamental turn to T3, and while I agree with you about MD Island the problem with your argument on SB Tropical Island is that the match up you would SB Tropical Island in against A) Doesn't have Wasteland and B) isn't won before Turn 3 with Goblins. I like Swamp too much in order to play with Misty Rainforest, but if we ever reach a 4 U/B, 2 U/G, B/G Fetch, 2 U/B, 2 U/R, U, B Dual/basic manabase like ANT then SBing in both Bayou and Tropical Island doesn't seem too out of line to me because the priorities change post-board.

I realize how good Fetchlands are, but that doesn't mean we should only rely on Fetchlands in order to protect our manabase at the cost of never being able to spend our mana efficiently on discard. There have been a lot of games where I've Probed, seen a Force of Will and Wasteland, Fetched Swamp, Therapied Force of Will and then won on T2 with Goblins and I think you're missing out on these windows by not playing Swamp or Empty the Warrens.

Regarding the single 4cc card difference post Ad Nauseam, I think you're getting hung up on casting Ad Nauseam game 1 when we more often than not cast Empty the Warrens. So if we're winning most of our T1 games with Goblins, drawing Empty the Warrens off of an Ad Nauseam chain is only a secondary consideration because we are no longer an Ad Nauseam deck in the same sense that ANT is no longer an Ad Nauseam deck by not making it our primary win condition.

In the event we do Ad Nauseam, it's probably because we either had the luxury of mana to do it quickly or we waited to do it vs control, and in neither of these situations are our life total ever under pressure. Also, it's not like you never draw into Empty the Warrens on your way to 4 life or that you can't keep drawing with Ad Nauseam past 4 life with Empty the Warrens still in your deck, you just have to accept that you'll lose a marginal% of the time if you can't wait to untap in order to win the game.

@Pelikandu, I don't think Chrome Mox adds enough to T1 win% in order to bother with it just for D&T and Co, yes we're more reliant on the coin flip in order to win the match but we're more consistent vs every Island.dec in the meta and that is far more important. I honestly think that if you want to beat D&T that consistently with speed then you are better off playing 4 Empty the Warrens in your 75.

I've played a lot of different lists over the week and I liked how mine performed over the weekend even tho' I only went 3-2, it feels like it's really in a Goldilocks Zone of consistency vs speed and I think a lot of you need to stop being so stubborn and start playing other people's lists in order to get a feel for what you do and don't like about certain card choices. I know I wouldn't have come across my current list if I hadn't bother to actually test the stuff other people were talking about so I could integrate what was worth keeping.

[Lemnear]

I however don't see the reason to just sit on fetches as you boys say in here, if you want to sculpt a hand which wins on 2nd turn you need to make ponder or B.S. in order to enable a 2nd turn win most of the times to find the land/Ritual/Threat, the same can be applicable to the way B.S. is played. I sometimes play B.S. in the same turn of comboing and mainly if statistically I need a key card, If I have the mana-Threats enough to combo I just B.S. EoT.

Of course you don't because you are so focussed on the idea hat your opponent has no key play and you a complete nut opening 7 where only a random card X is missing from blowing your opponent out. All your arguments root on best case scenarios and ignore so many circumstances that I sometimes have no idea where to start. Take this example: You opponent opens with Island -> Delver. You want to tell us that its sooooo smart to fetch a Volcanic (in your case: drop Gemstone) and go for Ponder? Daze your Ponder; Wasteland in your Volcanic; thanks for coming. I play around Daze/Wasteland as much as I can so all their situational cards get worthless after I dropped my third land for the game. Thats why I play 14 lands atm and thats why I play "fetch, go"


as anote, the lack of C.M. avoids scenarios to just use B.S. in the same turn of Comboing in my opionion,

That's because you rule out any scenario where you just slowroll and make landdrops. Once you have two/three lands in play, sculpting (eot) with Brainstorm gets really good as you can fetch the crap away and untap. The gap between my 14 lands Fetch/Dual base and your 12 lands Rainbow base is large in terms of how to play.


Also I just don't think sitting on fetches and just not playing ponder or Duress with a Dual is the way to go with TES, the profit of having 15 lands and among them 2 basics is that you ponder with Island or Duress with Swamp whith absolutly no fear of not reaching the desired mana in the followig turns (in TNT), if you play TES and you only play from 12 to 13 lands this is an issue, I read things like playing discard with the swamp, having the Bryant List - I believe this is unrealistic as with only 12 lands it is likely to occur a lot of mana issues and more if you have to fecth for a swamp whih leaves you with 10 lands in the deck.

It would be helpful if you take the lists in question to drop critique on the concepts. I don't play 12 lands but 14 so don't stop fucking argue with mana issues in regards of not being able to drop lands to discredit the slowroll against Daz/Wasteland. As someone who sticks to Rainbow lands and running DimRet in 2015, telling people about "the way to go with TES" is cocky.

I'm really fed up with all the out-of-context discussion, (un)intended misconceptions used as arguments and highly artifical scenarios.


Also for me the importance of having T1 wins is relevant vs Hymns, Chalice,etc and in general 2cc hateCards on the draw.

Chalice @ 0 if you are on the draw: Fuck your Chrome Moxen; fuck your 12 lands only; fuck your Rainbows with Wastelands

[QUOTE=Pelikanudo;895674]Ok, no problem, please could you send me a P.M about what Jamie wrote vs Miracles Strategy in the Facebook as I do not have access. this was regarding my publication of Miracles strategy. Thanks.

Jamie Westlake:

"I went 4-0 with ANT against Miracles in Lille, but that is by no means really a true reflection of the matchup (in its entirety or just postboard, it's about 50/50 like almost everything for ANT..). Basicly all postboard games against them were won with the singleton sb Empty for what it's worth. What I try to do with ANT is to be setup for both the quick game (Kill before the lock comes online, or discard it and go off in short order. Empty and AdN are key good cards here) and the grindy game (I'd like some Tops, Decays, Grips, 1-2 Carpets, any number of Tendrils for this plan). I boarded out the Preordains, 15th land, PiF & a CRit or something like that. If the Miracles list of choice is the Mentor variant instead I'd pack Sulfur Elementals. Playing multiple Empies is something I considered for Lille (for both Miracles & all the Delver decks), but didn't test enough to actually play there."


I have had enough 0 Lands Hands 1st Turns Wins with TES to have this scenario absolutly in mind.
playing TES vs wastelandsAndBlue.deck and on the play - a discard or ponder has made me win a lot of games in different scenarios to just discard a B.S. or -infinite other things I would need derived from casting ponder in st turn,

#DiscussionWithoutContextVol.1 How many were against FoW/Daze/Pierce or Chalice/Thorn/etc. on the draw? #DiscussionWithoutContext


I just think TES needs to at least ponder on first turn to just have more possibilities to make a 2nd turn win, the case of discard is more relative as you invest 1 spell and if you want to make natural storm this issue may be very relevant.

#DiscussionWithoutContextVol.2 Do you know what you have to look for if you T1 Ponder on the play? Are you aware that you have to shuffle a T1 Ponder unless you find 2(!!) gold cards in it?

I play "fetch, go" T1 ; look what my opponent is playing; T2 I cherrypick a card with Ponder, fetch away the rest and continue in a suitable way (like Therapy if my opponent was going for Plains -> Mother of Runes).


I have to say that overall and vs wastelandsAndBlue.deck I had more wins with TES than with TNT and this is mainly because of the possibility of enabling more turn 1/2 wins on the spot and with EtW, as said in other posts, I really do not mind to just beeing destroyed by a wasteland after playing a duress stripping a FoW if I already have for example a Gemstone to beeing able to play whatever card I could need.

Are you testing/playing exclusively vs. idiots? Like no one keeping a hand with FoW/Daze/Pierce/Fluster, never boarding sweepers, never rewarding your Gemstone -> Duress with a Wasteland? Are you really making a point here based on "oh I lost the Duress + a land for (potentially) nothing against Wasteland.dec, but I have a sure combo left with my remaining 5-6 cards anyways"?


When playing TNT enabling Basic to play ponder or Duress and next trying to sculp a hand to win - a lot of times this time investment results in losses.

Playing discard without going off in the same turn or the turn after results in losses. Sorry, my Storm Shards #3 about the 101 of storm cantripping and the #4 one about Discard is still just in the making and without release schedule. I will not make a lengthy post here to explain why all the auto-pilot T1 Ponders/Duress are plain stupid and makinf a point out of that is bollocks


I think these aproaches are completely different and I would absolutly prefer regarding your lists (Lemnear GP Lille List)
a) to have 15 lands
b) among them 2 basics - Island and Swamp
c) the conclusion of a) and b) which is: beeing able to cast a Ponder or a B.S. whenever I need/want and everyday of the week

Look who's talking here about manabases and cantrips. Fix your "I can't shuffle after my cantrips because I run Gemstone Minesinstead of Fetchlands" manabase, before teching me about the limits of mine. Do I really need to go about how shitty the island is for TES again, just because you don't understand how to play your cantrips/discard against Wasteland? Jesus Christ, you criticize the concept without understanding it in the first place.


maybe I'm not interested in improving the 3rd combo turn of TES, I believe it has an already powerfull turn 3 wins.

It has not. The whole problem of Chrome Mox and a low amount of Lands is that the value of this build is diminishing once you enter your third turn and every manadenial pointed at your deck cements your losing position. You have absolutely zero tools to get out of the range of their tempo counters. That is the angle I wanted to improve.


I've seen 'IMS' occurrence a lot of times and what does this exactly mean? I moreless know what this means... (inmutable mana source maybe?)
As said, I understand the logic behind to make TES a super 2nd Turn stable Combo deck, but on the draw you have again the same problem vs 2cc hatecards. Also with the raise of Omnishow or ANT builds (not only D&T) I think having configured the deck as fast of possible is a thing.

It's hilarious that you point now to the games you start on the draw to discredit the "two lands plus" concept of Rain and don't get that being on the draw against Chalice @ 0 fucks your whole point of running Chrome Moxen. I drop all these beautiful fetchlands and Wish for Massacre on demand or cast eot CoV/Decay through Thalia removing the Chalice/Thorn/Hatebear/etc, untap and win. What do you do? Sitting on your Gemstone with a Mox in hand dying to Thalia/Chalice + Wasteland because you can't draw more lands.

How did you survive here without knowing what IMS is? Its "Initial Mana Source" aka all the possible manasources you can play/use in a single turn which have no manacost attached to themselves and/or their activation (Lands, Petals, Moxen)


Apart,
I've been testing D.P. in side, sure with my Obsolete configuration of Gemstones and 3 C.M and have to say this:
a) if you don't have LED in hand and C.M. and Lands and Rituals you'll encounter scenarios in which C.M + land is the way to go for a fast kill on 2nd turn, playing B.W. in the 1st turn for D.P. into A.N.
b) if you have LED, B.W.->D.P.->A.N is still a 9 mana requirement card win, well much more better than thos D.R.!! I'll miss this card so much...

a) It's intented that way. You can dodge the situation of being forced to go for EtW otherwise
b) Fuck this shit. DP does not give your opponent FoW + cardadvantage like DimRet would.


Apart II,
On my next spare time I'll be doing some testing vs miracles... not much I've had, I dont remember my last legacy torunament...

I've been evaluating options, the last I tryed which was ok or at least the less worst was 4 A.D. + 2 Xantid.
Reading ANT GP Lille Turnaments reports I believe that I will put by the moment +1 K.G. from side.

I think what happened ias the followig:

a) a Miracles player generally expects ANT as storm archetype to face, and for 2nd games usually sides out a lot of massive removal

b) if the Miracles player faces TES he/she absolutly knows that EtW is a thing to have in mind so I believe that Miracles player in general tends to side out less mass removal than vs TES.

c) Im not sure how Miracles players in GP lille will side from now on vs ANT, as I, as Control player do not conceive to loose vs a horde of Goblins - I think this will not happen anymore... for the sake of god, they have terminus and E.E....

d)I see Xantid as a card vs Miracles and Omnishow, but If I want them to make absolutly useless their removal, maybe I try other strategies like +2pyro +2 xtirpate which also is effective vs Omni show, but still not sure - I saw this in the SloshThedark strategy which also was usefull for him..., I remember when I was testing anyway 3 Extirpate and I was in deed disappointed...

e) next stuff I will test is +2 Xtirpate + 2 pyro + 4 A.D. + 1 K.G. (but I need again 2 free slots... maybe 2 Extirpate is enough - dont know...)
by the moment +1 Krosan plus the already Xantids is a thing to test...

Looks like you haven't read what Jamie/Martin wrote about the matchup in regards to goblins. Goblins are still good as they have to side out mass removal anyways. You just don't want to go All-In on those. Xantids are "ok" vs. Miracles but not impressive. Pyro is crap once Counterbalance is on the field.


I realize Island and Tropical Island delay the fundamental turn to T3, and while I agree with you about MD Island the problem with your argument on SB Tropical Island is that the match up you would SB Tropical Island in against A) Doesn't have Wasteland and B) isn't won before Turn 3 with Goblins. I like Swamp too much in order to play with Misty Rainforest, but if we ever reach a 4 U/B, 2 U/G, B/G Fetch, 2 U/B, 2 U/R, U, B Dual/basic manabase like ANT then SBing in both Bayou and Tropical Island doesn't seem too out of line to me because the priorities change post-board.

Miracles and Lands do feature Wasteland despite being Matchups you want to side in the Decays. UW Blade might be another one.


I realize how good Fetchlands are, but that doesn't mean we should only rely on Fetchlands in order to protect our manabase at the cost of never being able to spend our mana efficiently on discard. There have been a lot of games where I've Probed, seen a Force of Will and Wasteland, Fetched Swamp, Therapied Force of Will and then won on T2 with Goblins and I think you're missing out on these windows by not playing Swamp or Empty the Warrens.

I peeked in such a hand in Lille too (UR Delver matchup covered in the report), but that did not bother me much. I slowrolled and cast Duress & Tendrils in a single turn. I know what you are trying to tell me and I will not disagree with the logic behind, but just wanted to point out that I was able to work around the lack of the Swamp/EtW in the matchup in question and thats maybe the reason I don't label either as "required"


Regarding the single 4cc card difference post Ad Nauseam, I think you're getting hung up on casting Ad Nauseam game 1 when we more often than not cast Empty the Warrens. So if we're winning most of our T1 games with Goblins, drawing Empty the Warrens off of an Ad Nauseam chain is only a secondary consideration because we are no longer an Ad Nauseam deck in the same sense that ANT is no longer an Ad Nauseam deck by not making it our primary win condition.

Maybe thats because I lost too many game 1s with resolved EtWs over the years to have a bit of a hate/love relationship with this particular All-In move against Batterskulls/Jitte/Wurmcoil/Glimmervoid/GolgariCharm/ZealousPersecution/EngineeredExplosives/Terminus/Griselbrand/Elves.

Its also up for question, if Dark Petition isn't the card which should let us question the position of TES as a Game-1-EtW.dec especially in the current field


In the event we do Ad Nauseam, it's probably because we either had the luxury of mana to do it quickly or we waited to do it vs control, and in neither of these situations are our life total ever under pressure. Also, it's not like you never draw into Empty the Warrens on your way to 4 life or that you can't keep drawing with Ad Nauseam past 4 life with Empty the Warrens still in your deck, you just have to accept that you'll lose a marginal% of the time if you can't wait to untap in order to win the game.

EtW suffers a bit from the Chrome Mox Syndrome of being lackluster after turn 2 (except against decks like pure Tempo or Miracles if drawn naturally) and in addition being less likely to come active T1 via Infernal Tutor anyways, if I cut the Chrome Moxen as I need Black/Red in T1 that way (which essentially means that we're talking about configurations with LED or Petal + additional Ritual/Rite on top of the required ability to accelerate into Infernal in the first place).


@Pelikandu, I don't think Chrome Mox adds enough to T1 win% in order to bother with it just for D&T and Co, yes we're more reliant on the coin flip in order to win the match but we're more consistent vs every Island.dec in the meta and that is far more important. I honestly think that if you want to beat D&T that consistently with speed then you are better off playing 4 Empty the Warrens in your 75.

I can only support a) the analysis of T1 win % in which Mox is THAT important, b) the irrelevance of a) because of the marginal number of D&T & Co. in the metagame and c) the importance of the focus on island.dec.

D&T, Miracles, Tempo, MUD, etc. are all matchups I really want to try battling with the multi-EtW approach. I don't think the low-investment belcher mode is totally off here.


I've played a lot of different lists over the week and I liked how mine performed over the weekend even tho' I only went 3-2, it feels like it's really in a Goldilocks Zone of consistency vs speed and I think a lot of you need to stop being so stubborn and start playing other people's lists in order to get a feel for what you do and don't like about certain card choices. I know I wouldn't have come across my current list if I hadn't bother to actually test the stuff other people were talking about so I could integrate what was worth keeping.

Due to that I'll durdle with yours and Bryants mid-week.

[Final Fortune]

A couple of thoughts,

What if it's not a question of Swamp vs Bayou but a black mana producing land vs a Fetchland? If we want Fetchlands more than any other land in our starting hand, then why not play Fetchland number 9?

I know what you're saying about auto-Duressing game 1, but on the play it's difficult to know whether or not it is or it isn't the right move so I tend to err. on collecting information, removing threats and protecting my manabase in one move. It may be a bit of a wet blanket tho, I'm going to try cutting Swamp for another Fetchland and see how much I really miss it. I've been thinking about whether or not SBing Basic lands is a better strategy than MDing them for awhile now, and considering how awful Xantid Swarm has been to me it might be time to try that out as an anti-Wasteland strategy

[Admiral_Arzar]

A couple of thoughts,

What if it's not a question of Swamp vs Bayou but a black mana producing land vs a Fetchland? If we want Fetchlands more than any other land in our starting hand, then why not play Fetchland number 9?

I know what you're saying about auto-Duressing game 1, but on the play it's difficult to know whether or not it is or it isn't the right move so I tend to err. on collecting information, removing threats and protecting my manabase in one move. It may be a bit of a wet blanket tho, I'm going to try cutting Swamp for another Fetchland and see how much I really miss it. I've been thinking about whether or not SBing Basic lands is a better strategy than MDing them for awhile now, and considering how awful Xantid Swarm has been to me it might be time to try that out as an anti-Wasteland strategy

Full disclosure: It's been a while since I've played this deck. Now that I have that out of the way, I'm intrigued by the potential of SB basics. Like Lemnear, I usually fought Wasteland by just slow-rolling with fetches until I had something relevant to do (i.e. win or cast Brainstorm with a good chance of digging into the win). Sideboard basics sounds pretty solid in Delver matchups or against DnT/MUD because (a) you want manasources that don't get Wasted, and (b) you want more lands to ensure you hit land drops. Most of my losses (with stuff like Jund also, not just this deck) to Delver and DnT stem from drawing insufficient lands in the face of Waste/Daze or Port/Thalia.

On the Xantid Swarm point, I honestly feel like that card hasn't been good in a very long time. It was cool against UWx Blade decks that had to side out removal, and funny vs. Reanimator or Sneak. Currently, the blue decks in the format either possess locks that don't care about Swarm (CB + other hate permanents i.e. Meddling Mage), play lots of red cards, or are combo decks that just win immediately when they cast Show and Tell (Sneak at least gave us a turn to attack with Xantid in most cases, Omni does not). Thus Swarm does not seem good at all against most of the decks we want anti-blue countermeasures against, unless it's also paired with an ultra-fast hand on our part. In my experience getting the right protection and the turn 2 win just doesn't happen often enough to be relevant postboard.

[Lemnear]

A couple of thoughts,

What if it's not a question of Swamp vs Bayou but a black mana producing land vs a Fetchland? If we want Fetchlands more than any other land in our starting hand, then why not play Fetchland number 9?

I know what you're saying about auto-Duressing game 1, but on the play it's difficult to know whether or not it is or it isn't the right move so I tend to err. on collecting information, removing threats and protecting my manabase in one move. It may be a bit of a wet blanket tho, I'm going to try cutting Swamp for another Fetchland and see how much I really miss it. I've been thinking about whether or not SBing Basic lands is a better strategy than MDing them for awhile now, and considering how awful Xantid Swarm has been to me it might be time to try that out as an anti-Wasteland strategy

Another option to consider if you think you can get away with the sole green dual. More important remains the question, if you feel good letting the Swamp go. Small personal question: Had you ever felt like casting Duress G1 T1 was a complete waste of time as your opponent had nothing relevant at all?

@Arzar
I would prefer this FULL ANT MODE any day of the week, if the alternative would be running Carpets. I'll keep this in mind, but personally I hate SB mana in general. I guess Bryants recent 12-lands build with 2/2 Moxen/Cabals would be a list to adapt SB basics

[Admiral_Arzar]

Another option to consider if you think you can get away with the sole green dual. More important remains the question, if you feel good letting the Swamp go. Small personal question: Had you ever felt like casting Duress G1 T1 was a complete waste of time as your opponent had nothing relevant at all?

Yes. Then again, there were also those games where my opponent is on combo and that turn 1 Duress prevented me from immediately dying, so I guess it goes both ways.


@Arzar
I would prefer this FULL ANT MODE any day of the week, if the alternative would be running Carpets. I'll keep this in mind, but personally I hate SB mana in general. I guess Bryants recent 12-lands build with 2/2 Moxen/Cabals would be a list to adapt SB basics

Carpet is interesting, but it's another card that I rarely had success with (in either this deck or ANT). It was bonkers in SI, but that deck was a completely different animal. Another argument for sideboard basics that I didn't think to address in my previous post is that if you are cutting Chrome Moxen, your "indestructible" permanent mana source list gets quite low. Early Chrome Moxen were always a good way to consistently have mana to cantrip or play discard spells against Waste.dec.

[Final Fortune]

The other thing is that I haven't seen Reanimator in awhile now, and considering Dark Petition has solved the problem of not having a reliable win condition off of Burning Wish I can't understand why I'm playing Xantid Swarm at all. Why not just SB the 4th Abrupt Decay or a Pyroblast if we want another card against Miracles?

Yeah, I was thinking a SB Island could be strong in match ups like RUG, BUG, UR; being able to fetch a basic on the play might be a thing vs Stifle. I like this idea a lot more than SBing in Carpet of Flowers, just SB in Island and Swamp, improve your mulligans and prepare for the middlegame. Another "crazy" idea is cutting Chain of Vapour for another X/G land and just using Abrupt Decay as your universal hate vs prison decks. And if we're talking about "crazy" ideas, I was thinking that 1 way to justify MD Bayou may be cutting the Void Snare for Reverent Silence. In theory, it'd be better vs Miracles game 1 because if you actually resolve Burning Wish that cards 4cc means it'll probably resolve as well so at least the MD Bayou supports Volcanic Island in being able to blow up all the white creatures or all the enchantments on the board.

Edit: No, I've never felt like casting Duress was a complete waste of time because now I know my opponent has nothing at all, but my opponent having nothing at all is pretty rare in any match up where I'm not already face rolling my keyboard to victory. Those Swamp, Discard T1 Empty the Warrens T2 YOLO! scenarios are pretty common for me vs aggro-control.

Hmm, I'm starting to like the idea of MD Bayou, SB Reverent Silence, SB X/G Dual and SB Island and cutting the Xantid Swarms and bounce to make space.

[Bryant Cook]

The other thing is that I haven't seen Reanimator in awhile now, and considering Dark Petition has solved the problem of not having a reliable win condition off of Burning Wish I can't understand why I'm playing Xantid Swarm at all. Why not just SB the 4th Abrupt Decay or a Pyroblast if we want another card against Miracles?

At this point, Xantid is more for Miracles/Omni than Reanimator.


Yeah, I was thinking a SB Island could be strong in match ups like RUG, BUG, UR; being able to fetch a basic on the play might be a thing vs Stifle. I like this idea a lot more than SBing in Carpet of Flowers, just SB in Island and Swamp, improve your mulligans and prepare for the middlegame. Another "crazy" idea is cutting Chain of Vapour for another X/G land and just using Abrupt Decay as your universal hate vs prison decks. And if we're talking about "crazy" ideas, I was thinking that 1 way to justify MD Bayou may be cutting the SB Blue sorcery bounce card and playing that Green sorcery destroy all enchantments for free if you control a Forest card instead. In theory it'd be better vs Miracles game 1 because if you actually resolve Burning Wish that cards 4cc? means it'll probably resolve as well so at least the MD Bayou supports Volcanic Island in being able to blow up all the white creatures or all the enchantments on the board.

After reading the last few pages, you're posting some of my thoughts from a few months ago. I picked up a pimp Reverent Silence and mentioned it to Peter, tried cutting Green (unsuccessfully as Wipeaway/Pyroblast takes up the same amount of slots while being good in less match-ups). I was toying with cutting Chain of Vapor last week and said something to Kai about it.

Where we disagree is that I dont mind Chrome Mox where people seem to hate it. It actually does create a large amount of turn one comboing due to the ability to Cantrip into something and then win or just flat out make the second initial mana needed.

[Final Fortune]

At this point, Xantid is more for Miracles/Omni than Reanimator.



After reading the last few pages, you're posting some of my thoughts from a few months ago. I picked up a pimp Reverent Silence and mentioned it to Peter, tried cutting Green (unsuccessfully as Wipeaway/Pyroblast takes up the same amount of slots while being good in less match-ups). I was toying with cutting Chain of Vapor last week and said something to Kai about it.

Where we disagree is that I dont mind Chrome Mox where people seem to hate it. It actually does create a large amount of turn one comboing due to the ability to Cantrip into something and then win or just flat out make the second initial mana needed.

Yeah, but in the case of Miracles/Omni is Xantid Swarm better than a Pyroblast? Should all of our removal be aimed at Island.dec for stuff like Counterbalance, Meddling Mage and Vendilion Clique and just leave Abrupt Decay supported by 2 X/G lands and 1-2 basics as removal for whatever else?

I'm thinking,

Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pyroblast
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 ???

I figure the U producing lands stay in the SB because they're too slow game 1, and I don't really see the marginal utility in having 2 Bayou over a Bayou and a Tropical Island post-board since going off on T2 is no longer the primary consideration when you're SBing for hate.

Edit: I don't hate Chrome Mox, she's just not my go to girl for Friday night any more. Seriously, I wouldn't sweat it if somebody cut the Rain of Filth for a single Chrome Mox or decided to SB both of the green duals and ran 2 even.

[Bryant Cook]

Yeah, but in the case of Miracles/Omni is Xantid Swarm better than a Pyroblast? Should all of our removal be aimed at Island.dec for stuff like Counterbalance, Meddling Mage and Vendilion Clique and just leave Abrupt Decay supported by 2 X/G lands and 1-2 basics as removal for whatever else?

I'm thinking,

Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pyroblast
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 ???

I figure the U producing lands stay in the SB because they're too slow game 1, and I don't really see the marginal utility in having 2 Bayou over a Bayou and a Tropical Island post-board since going off on T2 is no longer the primary consideration when you're SBing for hate.

Edit: I don't hate Chrome Mox, she's just not my go to girl for Friday night any more. Seriously, I wouldn't sweat it if somebody cut the Rain of Filth for a single Chrome Mox or decided to SB both of the green duals and ran 2 even.

Are you no longer a fan of the Basic Swamp? I'll try siding lands versus tempo plan, all it would require is me adding in a Tropical to the sideboard (Cutting the chains in the meantime). Also, you're at 14 lands and siding two more, doesn't that seem like a lot?

[Final Fortune]

Are you no longer a fan of the Basic Swamp? I'll try siding lands versus tempo plan, all it would require is me adding in a Tropical to the sideboard (Cutting the chains in the meantime). Also, you're at 14 lands and siding two more, doesn't that seem like a lot?

This is just conjecture, even tho' I like Swamp, I think there might be a problem with Swamp compared to Island in the sense that Swamp loses value as the matchup progresses because the previous games provided the necessary information to know whether or not you were playing vs aggro-control, control or combo and thus how hard you need to push your deck for an early win, if you need to disrupt your opponent before T2 and whether or not you can expose your manabase.

If Swamps principle goal is to collect information with Duress at no risk to Wasteland on the play, the marginal utility of Swamp decreases as X games are played.

Let's say we know we are playing vs BUG, RUG, UR and have to choose between Swamp or Island as our basic land, with that information already in hand would you still choose Swamp? I know I wouldn't, because those decks have no permanent based hate so you can hold on to your discard and spend your mana to cantrip and build a manabase unmolested by Wasteland.

So if we are choosing which Fetchlands to MD and which Basiclands to SB, it seems clear that MD Island is too slow, MD Swamp has diminishing returns post-board and Island is better vs aggro-control. So with that in mind, if we are going to SB a basic land, then Island is the clear choice. And if Island is the clear choice over Swamp post-board, our fetchlands should favour Island over Swamp as well. There's also the problem that Bloodstained Mire does not tutor for Tropical Island, and I do not think we want to play 2xBayou in our 75 just for Swamp's sake. Furthermore, Polluted Delta, Swamp, Duress is a tell we're on combo while Blue fetchland, Island, Cantrip is not.

Assumming space is an issue, the manabase I posted makes more sense to me because Bayou gives Burning Wish utility vs Miracles and and a combo color to try to win as fast as possible. Island is replacing Bayou vs aggro-control, I'm not SBing in all of the lands vs aggro-control at the moment because G mana has no utility. I'm not SBing in Island vs Miracles as opposed to Tropical Island for 15 lands post-board. I suppose I could just add lands to add lands vs aggro-control and see if that works out, but that doesn't seem appealing.

I'm not dead set on anything, maybe I'll end up playing 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Misty Rainforest, 3 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 2 Chrome Mox and just cut 2 Chrome Mox for SB Bayou and Tropical Island vs Miracles or 1 Chrome Mox for Island vs aggro-control. Right now, I don't practically know how much MD Bayou and SB Reverent Silence affects the Miracles match up or if 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 G Dual Lands and SB Massacre is enough to deal with D&T and MUD or if I even care about those match ups enough to bother.

Practically speaking, I think there is a lot of stuff that just needs to be tested to be sure of anything. All I know is I want Chrome Mox gone post-board, so if having 2 G Dual Lands or a SB Island is a possible way to do that, then I'm going to test it. Or hell, maybe we just end up with 4 Polluted Delta, 2 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Misty Rainforest, 1 Island, 1 Swamp, 1 Bayou in the MD like ANT, I honestly have no clue ATM other than I think I need to question whether or not I should just be defending my manabase with only Fetchlands and playing more conservatively with my discard.

Sorry if you were looking for a more concrete opinion, I'm tinkering a lot right now and trying to take as many view points as I can into consideration.

Edit: I just went thru' your updated SBing suggestions, if you are SBing Cabal Ritual out vs aggro-control then I think that card is probably not worth playing at all.

[Bryant Cook]

What I'm left wondering now is if Cabal Ritual is better off as additional lands, don't get me wrong, I've been a super big fan of Cabal Ritual over the last few weeks. But I think I would rather have Chrome Mox against Delver decks than Cabal Ritual, which means it would save two potential sideboard slots.

[Final Fortune]

What I'm left wondering now is if Cabal Ritual is better off as additional lands, don't get me wrong, I've been a super big fan of Cabal Ritual over the last few weeks. But I think I would rather have Chrome Mox against Delver decks than Cabal Ritual, which means it would save two potential sideboard slots.

I've always had 8 Fetchlands, but ever since I added the 3rd Underground Sea I haven't looked back - 13 to 14 lands are awesome for consistency. My less than stellar performance with 2xCabal Ritual vs BUG is what made me re-evaluate Rain of Filth, it sucks less than you'd think as the 9th Ritual if you end up at ~14 lands. Also considering you were SBing in Thoughtseize in every aggro-control matchup, that probably tells you that 2 Duress is sketchy.

As an aside two questions, how bad do you think it is not to have a wishable answer to Gaddok Teeg or Chalice of the Void in this meta? And what do you think causes more mulligans, only drawing a Swamp or an Island? Another argument that came up against Swamp is that even tho' you can disrupt and combo off on it Swamp doesn't really give you card velocity like Island does by just trying to cantrip into your second land.

[Bryant Cook]

I've always had 8 Fetchlands, but ever since I added the 3rd Underground Sea I haven't looked back - 13 to 14 lands are awesome for consistency. My less than stellar performance with 2xCabal Ritual vs BUG is what made me re-evaluate Rain of Filth, it sucks less than you'd think as the 9th Ritual if you end up at ~14 lands. Also considering you were SBing in Thoughtseize in every aggro-control matchup, that probably tells you that 2 Duress is sketchy.

As an aside two questions, how bad do you think it is not to have a wishable answer to Gaddok Teeg or Chalice of the Void in this meta? And what do you think causes more mulligans, only drawing a Swamp or an Island? Another argument that came up against Swamp is that even tho' you can disrupt and combo off on it Swamp doesn't really give you card velocity like Island does by just trying to cantrip into your second land.

I was only siding in Thoughtseize as a way to get Cabal Ritual out of the deck as it's difficult to resolve. I tested Rain of Filth – I severely disappointed, I want to stay a fast combo deck, Rain is the exact opposite of that, I think it's only barely acceptable in ANT because they're using it as an enabler for faster Cabal Rituals. I would run Cabal Ritual over RoF every single time.

Are you talking about Void Snare? I don't consider it an answer to Chalice of the Void, I do consider it a catch-all answer that can answer Teeg/Leyline.

I think Swamp is much more valuable as Island sets you up for later kills, which isn't what I'm trying to do. Discard spell into even Empty seems better to me than waiting and letting the opponent set up. I think you're not realizing that there's only eight blue spells in the deck, we're not chaining cantrips in most scenarios. If you have basic Island as your only mana source due to Wasteland, chances are that you're very far off from combing. Where Swamp + laying a Volcanic could mean death.

I'm just spitballing a list here, but thoughts?

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

I'm wondering if it should be -1 Decay -1 Thoughtseize/-1Massacre +2 Pyroblast. With almost no Death + Taxes, it's hard to justify Massacre. All though, with Pyroblast added, Seize loses some of it's appeal.

EDIT::

This is closer to what I would probably run:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

[Admiral_Arzar]

What I'm left wondering now is if Cabal Ritual is better off as additional lands, don't get me wrong, I've been a super big fan of Cabal Ritual over the last few weeks. But I think I would rather have Chrome Mox against Delver decks than Cabal Ritual, which means it would save two potential sideboard slots.

I never liked Cabal Ritual in TES for two reasons - we don't fill our yard or generally durdle as much as ANT, and Cabal Ritual is super awkward against soft countermagic in a deck with relatively few lands to help play around the aforementioned cards. On the other hand, both extra lands and Chrome Moxen are excellent against soft counters.




I'm just spitballing a list here, but thoughts?

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

I'm wondering if it should be -1 Decay -1 Thoughtseize/-1Massacre +2 Pyroblast. With almost no Death + Taxes, it's hard to justify Massacre. All though, with Pyroblast added, Seize loses some of it's appeal.

This list seems solid, it's a nice medium between the older all-in lists and the more recent, slower lists with Cabal Ritual. You're right about DnT - both it and Stoneblade are down right now, the issue for me is that Massacre is only 1 sideboard slot and it's a slot that actually destroys those decks. Not to mention having a wishable out to Meddling Mage is pretty good right now. Of course Pyroblast also answers the Mage so there is that.

[Final Fortune]

I think both lists are fine, but I would be interested in seeing whether or not Void Snare could be replaced by Reverent Silence as an answer to Leyline of Sanctity and Counterbalance since Miracles doesn't run a lot of 2cc or 4cc cards to counter either anymore, a resolved Gaddok Teeg will just have to be GG for awhile.

Yeah, I'm having similar feelings about Island being too slow for the MD, I think I'm going to try 8 Fetch, 3 Sea, 2 Volc, 1 Bayou, 1 Chrome Mox and SB it to see how much of a difference it makes vs aggro-control when I bring it in for Bayou. I've also been considering 2 Mox, SBing Bayou with Tropical Island, not playing any basics at all and just using Misty Rainforest in order to be able to choose between Bayou and Tropical Island vs Miracles.

I don't like the idea of cutting Massacre regardless of the state of D&T and Blade as long as Meddling Mage is a thing, I see Pyroblast as more of a replacement for Xantid Swarm in the Miracles match up.

[Pelikanudo]

@Lemnear:

I'm sorry to just throw my ideas and sure maybe sometimes they're out of context I try to reduce and compress everything and expose some scenarios which I find relevant or examples of why I take one direction or other - I Am A Fucking God Programmer and I am so used to guarranty facts that I can not conceive to expose specific contexts withouth going in a deeper discussion MTG is not Maths - I just try to make a general idea. Anyway I liked a lot your post - I don't want to be offensive but I spent a good time reading it and laughing at job! Thanks All I can say is that you are somehow right about your complaints.

I'll expose the following idea: Ok vs wastelandsBlue.deck you say RofFilth is good, I cannot disagree on this - it is like a D.Ritual and much better than CRitual vs this archetype but the lack of C.M makes your A.N weaker needing again some mana floating or to stay at a higher life totals which is relevant vs agro also and not having EtW in your 60 makes the deck slower - EtW has been an allstar in my 1st matchups vs almost everything and I remember when Bahamut for first time suggested it I was the first one to disagree completely.

Even I would still play D.R. IF Dark Petition didn't exist.

In my long experience with the deck I believe I reached at least the perfect 60 which at least is fine for me and I try to beat now my unique bad match up which is miracles. but all I can say is that I have no need to change anything in the 60 maybe the next try I could do is the list Bryant recently posted except -1 bayou +3rd C.M. - which is something I've always had in mind but again I would not prefer to lack the 7th discard.

@To whom may interest:
my proposed list could be something like:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Void Snare
1 Duress
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 bayou
1 Dark Petition
1 Massacre??


my current list is like this but -1 massacre = +1 piroclasm and gemstones and no fetches.... 12 lands and +1 duress

[LDX]

Are you talking about Void Snare? I don't consider it an answer to Chalice of the Void, I do consider it a catch-all answer that can answer Teeg/Leyline.

But how often can you actually cast Void Snare to hit Leyline/Teeg without managing Chalice? It seems you have to bypass Chalice @ 1 to do that anyway, or at least, I haven't been in any situation where I could hit any of these without fighting a Chalice first. Elves! being the exception, but you know what the Elves! matchup is anyway.

[Bryant Cook]

But how often can you actually cast Void Snare to hit Leyline/Teeg without managing Chalice? It seems you have to bypass Chalice @ 1 to do that anyway, or at least, I haven't been in any situation where I could hit any of these without fighting a Chalice first. Elves! being the exception, but you know what the Elves! matchup is anyway.

Omnishow + Sneak don't play either Chalice. Same could be said for Maverick. Meanwhile, the other two cards could be in those decks.

[Final Fortune]

@Lemnear:

I'm sorry to just throw my ideas and sure maybe sometimes they're out of context I try to reduce and compress everything and expose some scenarios which I find relevant or examples of why I take one direction or other - I Am A Fucking God Programmer and I am so used to guarranty facts that I can not conceive to expose specific contexts withouth going in a deeper discussion MTG is not Maths - I just try to make a general idea. Anyway I liked a lot your post - I don't want to be offensive but I spent a good time reading it and laughing at job! Thanks All I can say is that you are somehow right about your complaints.

I'll expose the following idea: Ok vs wastelandsBlue.deck you say RofFilth is good, I cannot disagree on this - it is like a D.Ritual and much better than CRitual vs this archetype but the lack of C.M makes your A.N weaker needing again some mana floating or to stay at a higher life totals which is relevant vs agro also and not having EtW in your 60 makes the deck slower - EtW has been an allstar in my 1st matchups vs almost everything and I remember when Bahamut for first time suggested it I was the first one to disagree completely.

Even I would still play D.R. IF Dark Petition didn't exist.

In my long experience with the deck I believe I reached at least the perfect 60 which at least is fine for me and I try to beat now my unique bad match up which is miracles. but all I can say is that I have no need to change anything in the 60 maybe the next try I could do is the list Bryant recently posted except -1 bayou +3rd C.M. - which is something I've always had in mind but again I would not prefer to lack the 7th discard.

@To whom may interest:
my proposed list could be something like:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Void Snare
1 Duress
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 bayou
1 Dark Petition
1 Massacre??


my current list is like this but -1 massacre = +1 piroclasm and gemstones and no fetches.... 12 lands and +1 duress

Gemstone Mine is terrible, we're not casting Silence anymore, so why do you want to expose your manabase to Wasteland so much? Are you so bent on gold fishing that you can't appreciate the added consistency of shuffling after cantrips and just being a more consistent T2 deck? Cutting Chrome Mox to 2 isn't that big of a deal for the 3rd Duress or the 14th land, that said I think I'm going to play without Swamp for the 3rd Underground Sea and Blue Fetchlands for SB Bayou and Tropical Island because I like having the SB lands to replace the MD Chrome Mox post-board for Miracles. 2 Chrome Mox feels like a good number because you can maintain IMS parody by SBing the 2 most situational lands in the deck.

[Dr_D]

But how often can you actually cast Void Snare to hit Leyline/Teeg without managing Chalice? It seems you have to bypass Chalice @ 1 to do that anyway, or at least, I haven't been in any situation where I could hit any of these without fighting a Chalice first. Elves! being the exception, but you know what the Elves! matchup is anyway.

According to your reports you're playing in a meta where people pack extra storm hate for you, so in a more "normal" (obviously depends on your area) meta, decks that run Leyline/Teeg don't run chalice as well. In my local meta nobody runs leyline, and the only deck with Teeg/chalice is 4c loam.

[LDX]

It indeed seems to be a general case I couldn't see for myself. The only Teeg or Leyline I see here are surround by 4 Chalice each. With the exception of Elves!, of course.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

What I'm left wondering now is if Cabal Ritual is better off as additional lands, don't get me wrong, I've been a super big fan of Cabal Ritual over the last few weeks. But I think I would rather have Chrome Mox against Delver decks than Cabal Ritual, which means it would save two potential sideboard slots.

I've never been a fan of Cabal Ritual.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm going to start doing a mailbox series on the website. Please submit any questions you might have, they don't have to be strategy (Although, I would prefer some).

For example:
"Do you have a favorite match?"
"How much did you pay for your X (Insert card here)"
"What would you do with this hand?"

Submissions must be through the contact form on the website with a subject line of "TES Mailbox".

http://www.theepicstorm.com/#message

[LDX]

http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-epic-storm-approaches-the-magdalen-coast-the-hate-deck/

I guess you could say this is where I am, right now.

I appreciate the new suggestions too, like Sulfur Elemental, but I needed something to get rid of Chalice before anything else. Next article should be a better, proper report on Thursday tournament.

[Pelikanudo]

Gemstone Mine is terrible, we're not casting Silence anymore, so why do you want to expose your manabase to Wasteland so much? Are you so bent on gold fishing that you can't appreciate the added consistency of shuffling after cantrips and just being a more consistent T2 deck? Cutting Chrome Mox to 2 isn't that big of a deal for the 3rd Duress or the 14th land, that said I think I'm going to play without Swamp for the 3rd Underground Sea and Blue Fetchlands for SB Bayou and Tropical Island because I like having the SB lands to replace the MD Chrome Mox post-board for Miracles. 2 Chrome Mox feels like a good number because you can maintain IMS parody by SBing the 2 most situational lands in the deck.

I will only keep the discussion with you as I've been blamed for keeping this discusion alive:
I prefer to play 3 moxen and 7 discard effects therefore I need to compress the deck the most possible so I need to play 12 lands and they need to be the most versatile possible, I even thought in going back to -1 Volcanic -1 fetch +2 city of brass

another reason is the polivalance Gemstones offers to me - I love using a single land to play ponder, duress and RoF as example.

Also I don't use cantrips B.S mainly the same way I use in other decks like TNT, I only see the benefit of using more fetches when playing B.S., but I usually use B.S. on the before turn of comboing or in the same so I just don't need to stabilize in here with B.S. - a usual play is to duress, ponder, B.W. for X, therapy maybe and finally B.S. for the win. just an example.

Other reason is that from the change to full of discard I haven't had any need of swithing anything else in my 60, I'm really happy with this vs all the decks in general...

On the other hand the unique alternatives of testing I've been evaluating which involves all of them taking out -1 discard (something I just don't want...) are:
a) 13 lands 8 fetches 2 U.Sea 2 V.Island 1 Balands - likely the most consistent move in regards of mana availability
b) 13 lands 8 fetches 2 U.Sea 2 V.Island 1 bayou - to save 1 side slot
c) 13 lands 8 fetches 2 U.Sea 2 V.Island 1 swamp - to test the 'duress with swamp and sitting on fetches' concept

as said, I'm reluctanct to such changes, If I start to loose the few tournaments I assist maybe I try something new...

[LDX]

Any last advice before I try to take on this?

Main deck Engineered Explosives. Enlightened Tutor to get it any day. Two Ethersworn Canonist maindeck. Best hate to bring? :)


3 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vryn Wingmare
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mirran Crusader

4 AEther Vial
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Manriki-Gusari


4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port



SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Rest in Peace


My still in testing list is just following. I'm mostly trying to adapt to the above deck. I avoided the Cabal Ritual and kept the Chrome Mox in an attempt to go as fast as possible on Empty the Warrens, but EE now scares me. Also, since I have so much hate, I wouldn't know the optimal sideboarding options. I had poor success with Dread of Night or Sulfur Elemental as they don't remove SFM racing with Batterskull, or Ethersworn Canonist, or Phyrexian Revoker. Someone talked about Hurkyl's Recall + Dread of Night being better than my setup, as it removes everything I have problems with. Thoughts?

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Bayou

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor

[Final Fortune]

Recent testing has brought me closer to previous lists with small nuances,

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Pyroblast

Arguments I listened to, lessons I learned;

1) Lemnear made a good point about just protecting the manabase with Fetchlands and waiting to cast discard, while Pelikanudo made a good point about polyvalent land. I was having a problem with Swamp and Bayou not being able to create "velocity" by not being able to cast cantrips, so I removed the Basic Land and SBed the Green Dual Land so that all of the MD lands provided blue mana and a combo color.

2) Chrome Mox is a desirable card MD, but an undesirable card post-board so my solution was to MD Chrome Mox while being able to SB them out for other IMS post-board. Having moved Bayou to the SB already, I decided to add a Tropical Island so that I could SB in 2 lands for 2 Chrome Mox. Not having a basic land MD, I changed Bloodstained Mire for Misty Rainforest so that I could fetch for either Green Dual Land.

3) With 2 Green Dual Lands in the SB i needed to make space for them, so I decided to cut Chain of Vapour from the SB and rely on Abrupt Decay and Void Snare as my only form of removal vs D&T, MUD and Junk. Realizing this removal package was serviceable, albeit mana inefficient, I decided to replace MD Duress with Thoughtseize so I wasn't forced to SB out discard vs creature decks and had extra protection vs Vendillion Clique and Meddling Mage in the aggro-control match up as well.

4) I'm playing Pyroblast over Xantid Swarm at the moment because I think having protection, removal and disruption in a single card makes it more flexible than Xantid Swarm vs Miracles, Blade and Omnitell.

I think this is closer to the "classical" approach of TES while being able to gain a more stable manabase post-board vs our most common, difficult match of Miracles. It feels a bit "full circle," but I feel the extra Fetchland and Blue Dual Land makes the mulligans more consistent and spending the SB space on the Green Dual Lands is worth it becuase it removes "sub-optimal basic lands" from your MD while giving you a strategy for SBing out your Chrome Mox post-board for other IMS. Once you have 2 Green Dual Lands for replacing Chrome Mox, you extend the utility of Abrupt Decay vs decks like D&T, MUD and Junk so Chain of Vapour becomes less relevant and Thoughtseize takes off a bit of the burden from having to remove a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Phyrexian Revoker, Gaddok Teeg, Meddling Mage or Ethersworn Canonist etc.

I think this might be a happy medium between TES players who are on opposite ends of speed vs consistency.

[Pelikanudo]

@Final Fortune:

I discarded completely adding the 13th land as a Blue producer because of the following reasons:

Having in mind the Mana Base of 12 Lands (with Gemstone + 4 fetches + 2Sea + 2V.Island) which has been strong enough to demonstrate beeing a consistent manabase for years, therefore having 12 Blue producers + X should not involve mana issues regarding casting cantrips in the 1st turn - you have exact the same possibilities with The Manabase of 12 lands than with 12Lands_8FetchesPlusPlain.
The issue I discussed with Lemnear is that:
What happend if you play 12 lands and among them 8 fetches?
If you dreaw a FetchWhichShouldBeGemstone -, once you fetch for a land you have less lands left in the deck - this is a fact, therfore having a 13rd land solves this issue regarding of probability of reaching a land once you fetch with a FetchWhichShouldBeGemstone

Concluding: I've been pondering which land should be the 13rd land and my conclusion is Badlands in regards of mana availability becasue:
a) The 12LandsGemstonesManabase has the same BlueProducers than 12WithFetches+Plain
b) If you start with V.Island or U.Sea, you may have failed because you choose VIsland but you want for example to play a duress and next a RoF so having [USea OR VIsland] plus Badlands seems to me the perfect conjuntion, even if you draw it after this scenario.
c) having Badlands makes maybe, worth playing tropical as youll have access to A.D. with both Tropical and Badlands. - 2 lands only.
d) it is more likely that you need to fetch for U.Sea - and a scenario which involves ponder or duress and maybe no other land in hand - having badlands left in here seems wonderfull

Above all, sure having 13 blue producers makes cantrips beeing casted more likely than 12.

EDIT: See this deck... this first intrigues me...:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17071&iddeck=128099

or this:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14608&iddeck=107984


@LDX: there are lot of strategies vs D&T...
I'm not sure if 3 Shattering Spree is the right move as this is sorcery and only is used vs artifacts specifically Chalice.
likely the post polivalent card - I love having polivalent cards like E.TRuth for you in conjuntion to CoV - the problem of CoV is that at ChaliceAt0 is bad...
Apart, not sure if Nedle makes sense as this avoids E.E., Wasteland, Rishadan, Jitte and Batterskull.

[Final Fortune]

You care too much about having access to any mana you want at any time instead of having consistent mulligans, better cantrips and protection against Wasteland, a 3 color deck with 4 Lotus Petal and 3 Chrome Mox doesn't need a 5 color land, nor does it need a land that doesn't create velocity by only casting combo colors. I doubt the hands you open with Badlands are really going to be worth Badlands + Tropical Island vs Miracles, especially considering there is no additional Fetchland that supports searching for both of those color combinations so you are left with 2 Fetchlands that can't search for Badlands or Tropical Island if you play the split. Even with 13 lands, there are just too many 1 land hands that could be salvaged if you had the blue mana to cantrip into the next land, and Bayou and Swamp were giving me fits whenever I drew them. TES isn't really like ANT where you have the luxury of playing basics, G dual lands or Badlands without significant drawbacks because 13 vs 15 lands is a tremendous difference.

Edit: I do agree tho' that Bayou isn't very good without Xantid Swarm, right now I'm actually looking at UR/UG Fetchlands and SB Taiga because it gives UBGR and gets fetched with all 8 fetchlands.

I think since Lemnear pointed out that discard in TES should be played more like Silence as a default, I've just come to realize that making each non Fetchland drop enable cantrips in order to find another land, preferably a fetchland, is just so important for protecting yourself vs Wasteland by chaining cantrip into land into cantrip etc.

[Lemnear]

I prefer to play 3 moxen and 7 discard effects therefore I need to compress the deck the most possible so I need to play 12 lands and they need to be the most versatile possible, I even thought in going back to -1 Volcanic -1 fetch +2 city of brass

What a nice self-fullfiling promise.

You once more draw conclusions without questioning, if the 3 Moxen/7 Discard base you take as justification, are correct. Its the same stuff I was talking about in your Doomsday/PIF deck thread, where you simply decided that 2 Doomsday/1 PIF/4 Petitons HAS to be the correct base and continued to argue based on that fixed idea.


another reason is the polivalance Gemstones offers to me - I love using a single land to play ponder, duress and RoF as example.

Oh, a single Gemstone does produce Black & Red initial mana to cast Ritual & Rite? No it does not, so fuck this shit. You need two IMS in any case. Do Volcanic + Bayou produce Black & Red initial mana as well as all 4 colors the deck runs? They do. Can you protect those with fetchlands? You can.


Also I don't use cantrips B.S mainly the same way I use in other decks like TNT, I only see the benefit of using more fetches when playing B.S., but I usually use B.S. on the before turn of comboing or in the same so I just don't need to stabilize in here with B.S. - a usual play is to duress, ponder, B.W. for X, therapy maybe and finally B.S. for the win. just an example.

You really want to tell me that this is sound with your previous arguments of aiming to go off T1/2 and only 12 lands?


Recent testing has brought me closer to previous lists with small nuances,

.
.
.
2 Thoughtseize
.
.
.
3 Chrome Mox
.
.
.

This sounds like a huge step backwards in the face of any Delver deck ever. More self-inflicted damage, no basics and less efficient manasources at the same time


TArguments I listened to, lessons I learned;

1) Lemnear made a good point about just protecting the manabase with Fetchlands and waiting to cast discard, while Pelikanudo made a good point about polyvalent land. I was having a problem with Swamp and Bayou not being able to create "velocity" by not being able to cast cantrips, so I removed the Basic Land and SBed the Green Dual Land so that all of the MD lands provided blue mana and a combo color.

polyvalent lands are nonsense, if you can't get around Daze/Wasteland at all. You need land volume to get around that and if you run more lands the need for polycalent lands decreses automatically. In TES' history the number of gold lands decresed every time the number of lands was increasing (see this threads history with 11/12/13 lands.)


2) Chrome Mox is a desirable card MD, but an undesirable card post-board so my solution was to MD Chrome Mox while being able to SB them out for other IMS post-board. Having moved Bayou to the SB already, I decided to add a Tropical Island so that I could SB in 2 lands for 2 Chrome Mox. Not having a basic land MD, I changed Bloodstained Mire for Misty Rainforest so that I could fetch for either Green Dual Land.

Its not in general, but highly influenced by metagame structure. You would choke on that sentence the first time you play in a meta full of Chalice and tempo decks


3) With 2 Green Dual Lands in the SB i needed to make space for them, so I decided to cut Chain of Vapour from the SB and rely on Abrupt Decay and Void Snare as my only form of removal vs D&T, MUD and Junk. Realizing this removal package was serviceable, albeit mana inefficient, I decided to replace MD Duress with Thoughtseize so I wasn't forced to SB out discard vs creature decks and had extra protection vs Vendillion Clique and Meddling Mage in the aggro-control match up as well.

MUD/D&T are how much of the metagame compared to Delver where TS really sucks ass? I'm also annoyed to repeat all the stuff on "I can discard any harebear as my opponent is never going to topdeck/palm a second one". Why do you argue with Decays serving as all-purpose removal with two green lands if you din't want to board them for the Duress slots against hatebears anyways?


4) I'm playing Pyroblast over Xantid Swarm at the moment because I think having protection, removal and disruption in a single card makes it more flexible than Xantid Swarm vs Miracles, Blade and Omnitell.

Xantid has neen crap against Omni and Miracles for me and Pyroblast very inefficient against Miracles as well. Discard is better than blast against Omni if you ask me, so by running 7 in the main I never felt the urge to run Lyroblasts in addition.


I think this is closer to the "classical" approach of TES while being able to gain a more stable manabase post-board vs our most common, difficult match of Miracles.

The classical approach has current problems due to the metagame structure and maintaining those problems in every game 1 isn't going to carry you far. The manabase rarely presented the problem we have with Miracles therefore I didn't saw a point in Carpets either. Our problem is Counteralance + SDT. They can do shit against storm without those on the table.


It feels a bit "full circle," but I feel the extra Fetchland and Blue Dual Land makes the mulligans more consistent and spending the SB space on the Green Dual Lands is worth it becuase it removes "sub-optimal basic lands" from your MD while giving you a strategy for SBing out your Chrome Mox post-board for other IMS.

We had this approach in 2013, but the metagame has come to a point where fixing the deck with the SB if you face Delver and blue isn't happening occasional but became the norm in more than 75% of possible matches and the question is legit why you don't start game 1 essentially with the postboard configuration.


@Final Fortune:

I discarded completely adding the 13th land as a Blue producer because of the following reasons:

Having in mind the Mana Base of 12 Lands (with Gemstone + 4 fetches + 2Sea + 2V.Island) which has been strong enough to demonstrate beeing a consistent manabase for years, therefore having 12 Blue producers + X should not involve mana issues regarding casting cantrips in the 1st turn - you have exact the same possibilities with The Manabase of 12 lands than with 12Lands_8FetchesPlusPlain.
The issue I discussed with Lemnear is that:
What happend if you play 12 lands and among them 8 fetches?
If you dreaw a FetchWhichShouldBeGemstone -, once you fetch for a land you have less lands left in the deck - this is a fact, therfore having a 13rd land solves this issue regarding of probability of reaching a land once you fetch with a FetchWhichShouldBeGemstone

There is no fucking evidence for this claim. The manabase in question did not stay compeditive over years and had neither relevance for todays metagame


http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14608&iddeck=107984

You really want to make points on a pre Khans list of how to battle todays metagame? Maybe you should go to the ANT thread and post an age-old storm list with IGG claiming that the card is still the bees knees


P.S. I guess its time to take a break from this thread

[Final Fortune]

I'm not arguing that Thoughtseize replaces creature removal vs D&T, we've had that argument before. I'm arguing that Thoughtseize reduces the number of creatures that resolve so that you have to remove less of them. And yes discarding hatebears is relevent, even outside of the aggro matchup being able to discard Vendillion Clique, Meddling Mage and Stoneforge Mystic are useful in the aggro-control and control matchups. I argued against the 2 Green Land, Abrupt Decay strategy vs D&T because of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben before and it's still an issue now, obviously it's more difficult to resolve 2 mana, multi-colored removal thru' a mana-taxing effect than a 1 mana single-colored removal. The difference now is blue is a greater % of the metgame than it was then, so it's less relevant how good your removal is vs D&T and more relevant how many lands you have in your SB to replace Chrome Mox in control matchups. It's Abrupt Decay's satisfactory, yet inefficient performance in the D&T, MUD, Junk, Maverick match up that caused me to replace Duress with Thoughtseize.

Do you really think there's no difference in how you should board in a matchup based on whether or not you are on the draw or on the play? Because I do, and I also think I'd rather SB out Cabal Therapy vs a deck that has numerous hatebears than Thoughtseize as well, so I'd rather have a MD card that gives me the option of keeping it post-board as opposed to a MD card that forces me to SB it out. You wouldn't lose the game to Shock if you actually had Chrome Mox in your deck, it pisses me off when other people don't consider the changes to the deck as a whole too ...

Polivalent lands do matter, 2 MD Bayou or MD Swamp and Bayou do not cast cantrips, it's not only the total number of lands that matters it's the ability of those lands to provide relevant mana, and while I disagree with Gemstone Mine over Fetchlands I think it's important that every land produces blue mana so that you can cantrip and find those additional lands and/or mana sources.

I thought a long time about a 15 land MD and just being a T2 deck, the thing is I've always had a blue heavy metagame and Chrome Mox was never that terrible vs aggro-control. I don't know whether or not the solution is 3 Chrome Mox and 13 land or 2 Chrome Mox and 14 land, but I do know that we don't have to think in black and white terms of Chrome Mox or no Chrome Mox to increase consistency. I've tried it your way, I've tried it Bryant's way, I've tried to Pelikanudo's way, I've tried it my way and I think there are relevant points from everyone's perspective if you're willing to listen and test. It gets really tiring listening to you argue like a fussy little bitch any time some one else's opinion differs from your own, do you really think that you stand to learn nothing from anyone else in this thread?

[Bryant Cook]

TES Mailbox #1 (http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-1/)

[bennotsi]

TES Mailbox #1 (http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-1/)

Nice read, thanks for posting!

[Lemnear]

I don't know whether or not the solution is 3 Chrome Mox and 13 land or 2 Chrome Mox and 14 land, but I do know that we don't have to think in black and white terms of Chrome Mox or no Chrome Mox to increase consistency. I've tried it your way, I've tried it Bryant's way, I've tried to Pelikanudo's way, I've tried it my way and I think there are relevant points from everyone's perspective if you're willing to listen and test. It gets really tiring listening to you argue like a fussy little bitch any time some one else's opinion differs from your own, do you really think that you stand to learn nothing from anyone else in this thread?

It's not about black/white thinking it's about the kind of arguments/situations picked to support the ideas which leave me baffled at times.

[LDX]

Quick update from the tournament. Couldn't receive Shattering Spree in time, and the person who was supposed to bring me Echoing Truth forgot them. Played regular list, ended up 3-2 in a Double Elimination tournament. Lost twice against a special homebr-wait, no, it was just Death & Taxes. The same player twice.

I'll report for next Wednesday most likely.

I swear I listened to you guys, but Abrupt Decay is not enough.

See you with a report!

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, even Abrupt Decay with 2 Green Dual Lands can struggle vs Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Wasteland and Rishaden Port. One of the points I was discussing over PM was whether or not I should be SBing Chain of Vapour since all Lands produce blue and just run Krosan Grip in the SB to have the best removal vs Miracles and D&T in terms of efficacy and cost effectiveness.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, even Abrupt Decay with 2 Green Dual Lands can struggle vs Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Wasteland and Rishaden Port. One of the points I was discussing over PM was whether or not I should be SBing Chain of Vapour since all Lands produce blue and just run Krosan Grip in the SB to have the best removal vs Miracles and D&T in terms of efficacy and cost effectiveness.

There is nothing wrong with running 4 Decays and 3 CoV imo. There is enough space in the SB

[Final Fortune]

There is nothing wrong with running 4 Decays and 3 CoV imo. There is enough space in the SB

Maybe, but I'm not sure Abrupt Decay's ability to hit Meddling Mage over Krosan Grip's ability to hit Needle is necessarily any better, there's also Wipe Away to consider and playing the deck without any green at all.

[Lemnear]

Maybe, but I'm not sure Abrupt Decay's ability to hit Meddling Mage over Krosan Grip's ability to hit Needle is necessarily any better, there's also Wipe Away to consider and playing the deck without any green at all.

You can still point Decay at SDT eot, untap and proceed with the once more relevant discard for what it's worth. The question for me is if I would like to play Krosans in addition to Decays at this point if it wasn't for the 3cc flips. Wipe Away is unreasonable compared to Decay or CoV as it can't realistically beat Thalia nor stuff like multiple Counterbalances or CB on the field +Counter in hand. It's simply iffy to spend a card without being able to combo off automatically. The same is true for Meddling Mage + FoW in opponents hand: you need the eot Wipe Away + discard to get through unlike with Decay

[Final Fortune]

Eh, compared to Krosan Grip not hitting Meddling Mage has its draw backs as well, I don't think there's a perfect solution to the problem.

[Bryant Cook]

WonderPreaux's first article for The Epic Storm. (http://www.theepicstorm.com/cloud-seeding-the-epic-storm/)

[Pelikanudo]

The other day I played at locals with my 4Gemstones - 3C.M list and New D.P. Card I will write some notes about the tournament:

Important notes:
I won all of my 1st match ups in my 4 rounds and both C.M and EtW main were as always an all star
I used twice D.P.:
One vs ANT deck in which I had a hand of D.R.,RoF, Lands and B.W., in here I B.W. For D.P. And next I drew B.S. Then we entered in an attrition game in which D.P. Could be used in 2 angles to fetch LED or A.N. As the phases elapsed I finalled drew I.T. So I just needed to fetch LED for the win but in here this card was a house.
The other match up was vs Omnishow, but In here I made a mistake.. as I didn't evaluate enough the Split Decision card... and I fetched D.P. This was absurd as the Opp. Could fetch whatever thing and even adding BBB to his pool!, The most absurd thing was that the Opp. When I finally casted D.P. He just didn't used Split decision... so IF I had casted D.P. Before I had won that match up.... Sure you all boys know this card but be aware if this fact if any isn't!

My match ups were:
1. A kind o reanimator won
2. ANT won easily
3. Grixis Delver maybe?

3.1. In here I won first game – EtW plus therapy was the key, lost 2nd and the 3rd I casted Ad Nauseam through a FoW at 20 lifes and B floating – well this is the first time this occurs to me and maybe was because of not suffling well but I only revealed 1 RoFlame and almost all of my tutors in the deck – I drew even EtW .. I evaluated at some point to stop at +4 Lifes because of Bolt, but even that way I could not win on my next 2-3 turns.... was really frustating so I decided to reveal some more cards ... I was irritated... and really didn't mind at all how the game was going to develop , I finally named Bolt with therapy -failed and he B.S. Into Bolt – likely I should have named B.S...

3.2. Likely IF I had opted the EtW plan I had won instead Ad Nauseam...
At this point I would have won 3 in a row

NOTE: I think most of here fear Grixis delver this deck contains Delver, Y.Pyromancer, FoW and daze and 4 wastelands, but I'm happy to see this match up because I was used to face Tempo in the form of RUG which also played Stifle and this card seems to be not present in this meta so great!

All I can say about this match up is that C.Therapy from their part is a really tough card which won his 2nd game and that Gemstones for me strengthened the concept of polivalency of available mana - I just preferred to beeing destroyed volcanic when I Only had 2 lands between hand and in play.
Another point is that for me EtW shined in this match up, some by here says that EtW is not as good because of Y.P... I think this is backwards... because:

a) After some conversation with the Opp, he only played 1 Electrickery vs my Gobs! This is logic as he also can not play cards like pyroclasm or likes which destroyes his elementals...
b) If you play on 2nd or 1st turn or even 3rd turn an amount of Gobs you just win even if the Opp. Plays 1 or 2 or 3 Y.P.... 16-18 gobs are a lot of gobs to handle....

regarding my Omnishow match up well a thing happened which was not beeing able to cast Xantid because I had V.Island and Sea and this would have been key to win this match up, even ponder and gitaxian didn't find me Green...
I know you boys just don't agree but I've been always hating the 2nd volcanic in my 60 and just needed 1 fucking more snceario to take out finally 1 copy definately... I will take out this shitty land and put back 1 CoB... not only this issue happened, more times I encountered scenarios like this, as I just have in mind those scenarios to get better and better my TES deck...


Now time to answer you my dear Lemnear... I'm sorry but today I'm not in the best mood either, I usually just take my own directions and sometimes ask for opinions but I finally prefer to do what
I exactly think it is the best... I will take a break from this.... maybe we think all of us by here are super bigminded - self-centered .... I laughed when Bryant wrote in his WebSite about himself... looks like he made an inverview about himself. It is ok people do what they want, the only thing that matters is that it has to be not offensive – spent a good time reading it...




Quote Originally Posted by Pelikanudo View Post

I prefer to play 3 moxen and 7 discard effects therefore I need to compress the deck the most possible so I need to play 12 lands and they need to be the most versatile possible, I even thought in going back to -1 Volcanic -1 fetch +2 city of brass

What a nice self-fullfiling promise.

You once more draw conclusions without questioning, if the 3 Moxen/7 Discard base you take as justification, are correct. Its the same stuff I was talking about in your Doomsday/PIF deck thread, where you simply decided that 2 Doomsday/1 PIF/4 Petitons HAS to be the correct base and continued to argue based on that fixed idea.



Yeah I switched one of my sitty V.Inland for CoB! V.I. Was advocated to extinction in my mind...
Well maybe I have to start concluding for example when a card is tapped - lets see: depending on the angle of vision I have, for example If I need to go to the bathroom in the middle of a game, then my angle of vision is different when I am next to the corner of the table - fuck shit, it is untapped!and may be tapped again when approaching to the bathroom as I occupy an space behind my opponent, ohh shit, this is easy I just have to wait to come back from bathroom and sit down to see again my card tapped!
I'll throw again the question: when a card is tapped? If I don't come back from the bathroom and the bathroom is next to the table of my opponent how is the card tapped or untapped? Lot of questions invade my mind... too many doubts...

Maybe you are right about the Thread I initiated, it is a shit to not being able to cast D.P off LEDs the most powerfull card...
Related to 7 discard – 3 C.M. Well... yes for me it has been a start withouh questioning... maybe someday I took 1 C.M. Or 1 discard, but nothing else... you man destroyed TES when you took out :
- EtW
- C.M.
And added that shit of card named RoFilth which produces even 0 mana.... to a fucking supposed to be -what? A 1st turn 2nd turn win deck with a percentage of winning on 3rd turn?

I would have liked you to won the GP Lille, however I would have hated such an aberration had been named TES winning the GP...









Quote Originally Posted by Pelikanudo View Post

another reason is the polivalance Gemstones offers to me - I love using a single land to play ponder, duress and RoF as example.

Oh, a single Gemstone does produce Black & Red initial mana to cast Ritual & Rite? No it does not, so fuck this shit. You need two IMS in any case. Do Volcanic + Bayou produce Black & Red initial mana as well as all 4 colors the deck runs? They do. Can you protect those with fetchlands? You can.



Are you joking in here? do you play in a 5 dimension planar in which Gemstones produces at the same time B, R and U? ohh please bring me to there, I virtually am sometimes in 7 dimesions planars but not playing MTG...
fuck that argument boy. I re-iterate:
I love using a single land to play any combination of sequential order of:

1st or 2nd or 3rd ponder
2nd or 1st or 3rd duress
3rd or 1st or 2nd RoF

and again:

IF you are wastelanded to hell and the unique land you have is a U.Sea or from now on ShittyVolcanicIsland which land would you prefer? one of those or a super Gemstones or CoB or even U.Paradise? sure your fucking lonely argument is - I guess - use fetchlands to avoid wastelanded - what a fucking joke - which will be the next conclusion? not to play ponder?




Originally Posted by Pelikanudo View Post

Also I don't use cantrips B.S mainly the same way I use in other decks like TNT, I only see the benefit of using more fetches when playing B.S., but I usually use B.S. on the before turn of comboing or in the same so I just don't need to stabilize in here with B.S. - a usual play is to duress, ponder, B.W. for X, therapy maybe and finally B.S. for the win. just an example.

You really want to tell me that this is sound with your previous arguments of aiming to go off T1/2 and only 12 lands?



I don't understand this well enough to answer, but I think I spent enough spare time by the moment ... as said I will take a break from this, please take it easy I still love you a lot Lemnear!

[Lemnear]

3.1. In here I won first game – EtW plus therapy was the key, lost 2nd and the 3rd I casted Ad Nauseam through a FoW at 20 lifes and B floating – well this is the first time this occurs to me and maybe was because of not suffling well but I only revealed 1 RoFlame and almost all of my tutors in the deck – I drew even EtW .. I evaluated at some point to stop at +4 Lifes because of Bolt, but even that way I could not win on my next 2-3 turns.... was really frustating so I decided to reveal some more cards ... I was irritated... and really didn't mind at all how the game was going to develop , I finally named Bolt with therapy -failed and he B.S. Into Bolt – likely I should have named B.S...

Funny as I it mimics my Lille game 2 against Elves and kinda proving the point that Moxen are pointless if you can float mana into AN, but fail to flip the sheer amount of mana to wish for ToA.


NOTE: I think most of here fear Grixis delver this deck contains Delver, Y.Pyromancer, FoW and daze and 4 wastelands, but I'm happy to see this match up because I was used to face Tempo in the form of RUG which also played Stifle and this card seems to be not present in this meta so great!

The problem is Pyromancer + Therapy + DTT against all Grixis variants.


All I can say about this match up is that C.Therapy from their part is a really tough card which won his 2nd game and that Gemstones for me strengthened the concept of polivalency of available mana - I just preferred to beeing destroyed volcanic when I Only had 2 lands between hand and in play.

So? How do you win with Gemstone and a hand of Rite, Rite, Infernal, Duress, LED for example? You don't and run only 12 lands total.


Another point is that for me EtW shined in this match up, some by here says that EtW is not as good because of Y.P... I think this is backwards... because:

a) After some conversation with the Opp, he only played 1 [I]Electrickery vs my Gobs! This is logic as he also can not play cards like pyroclasm or likes which destroyes his elementals...
b) If you play on 2nd or 1st turn or even 3rd turn an amount of Gobs you just win even if the Opp. Plays 1 or 2 or 3 Y.P.... 16-18 gobs are a lot of gobs to handle....

Wow! Trying to make a point out of your opponent being an idiot: "I rather die to Goblins before sweeping my own Pyromancer and tokens!". BRILLIANT POINT DOOD! Barely as good as arguing based on "I have a turn 1 combo for 8 to 9 stormcount natrually and my opponent has no interaction at all". Thats the games/scenarios we REALLY care for. /sarcasm


regarding my Omnishow match up well a thing happened which was not beeing able to cast Xantid because I had V.Island and Sea and this would have been key to win this match up, even ponder and gitaxian didn't find me Green...
I know you boys just don't agree but I've been always hating the 2nd volcanic in my 60 and just needed 1 fucking more snceario to take out finally 1 copy definately... I will take out this shitty land and put back 1 CoB... not only this issue happened, more times I encountered scenarios like this, as I just have in mind those scenarios to get better and better my TES deck...

A decision you would regret once your sole Volcanic would get killed (which is usually my land to lead with) and you can't access a second red land with any of the fetchlands. Maybe the issue beckmes more prevailing if you run only 5-6 mana producing lands like I did but a plethora of fetches


Yeah I switched one of my sitty V.Inland for CoB! V.I. Was advocated to extinction in my mind...
Well maybe I have to start concluding for example when a card is tapped - lets see: depending on the angle of vision I have, for example If I need to go to the bathroom in the middle of a game, then my angle of vision is different when I am next to the corner of the table - fuck shit, it is untapped!and may be tapped again when approaching to the bathroom as I occupy an space behind my opponent, ohh shit, this is easy I just have to wait to come back from bathroom and sit down to see again my card tapped!

Wut?


Maybe you are right about the Thread I initiated, it is a shit to not being able to cast D.P off LEDs the most powerfull card...
Related to 7 discard – 3 C.M. Well... yes for me it has been a start withouh questioning... maybe someday I took 1 C.M. Or 1 discard, but nothing else... you man destroyed TES when you took out :
- EtW
- C.M.
And added that shit of card named RoFilth which produces even 0 mana.... to a fucking supposed to be -what? A 1st turn 2nd turn win deck with a percentage of winning on 3rd turn?

It's not just the LED topic, it's that the redundancy tool you picked (Dark Petition) for your Doomsday build isn't solving existing problems of the archetype, but creates its own in demanding Cabal Rituals.

The claim of me destroying TES doesn't bother me at all tbh as I have heared all that before, when I was pushing the removal of Silence and Goldlands which some have argued being the fundamental core of what TES is. My vision of this deck is different and my work solely aims to keep the concept viable and I'm fine getting flak for unconventional ideas, but the discussion this time is really absurd, if we add improvements for the current DEEP blue metagame and you keep fucking pointing at goldfish scenarios


I would have liked you to won the GP Lille, however I would have hated such an aberration had been named TES winning the GP...

No problem, dood. I had written "Storm" on the sheet. ;)


Are you joking in here? do you play in a 5 dimension planar in which Gemstones produces at the same time B, R and U? ohh please bring me to there, I virtually am sometimes in 7 dimesions planars but not playing MTG...
fuck that argument boy. I re-iterate:
I love using a single land to play any combination of sequential order of:

1st or 2nd or 3rd ponder
2nd or 1st or 3rd duress
3rd or 1st or 2nd RoF

I'm not joking. How does Gemstone solve the problems of having Rite of Flame + Infernal Tutor or Dark Ritual + Burning Wish in hand? It simply does not. You ALWAYS need TWO initial mana sources in play to solve this puzzle and if those two IMS are Sea/Volcanic or Fetch/Fetch or Fetch/Dual you can cast ALL THE SPELLS you listed as well, just with more shuffle effects and less self-destructing lands. I'm playing 14 to achieve this density of quality IMS for a reason.


IF you are wastelanded to hell and the unique land you have is a U.Sea or from now on ShittyVolcanicIsland which land would you prefer? one of those or a super Gemstones or CoB or even U.Paradise? sure your fucking lonely argument is - I guess - use fetchlands to avoid wastelanded - what a fucking joke - which will be the next conclusion? not to play ponder?

No, its: "Play more than only 12 lands to avoid that scenario AND play more lands which are not automatically exposed to Wasteland like Gemstone". In all honest, its not my problem if you a) play easy wasteland-targets right into landdestruction and b) not enough lands to recover from wasteland either. I'm fixing this exact problem you took here as example.


I don't understand this well enough to answer, but I think I spent enough spare time by the moment ... as said I will take a break from this, please take it easy I still love you a lot Lemnear!

Not a big deal. The part quoted was about that your Statement about how you play Brainstorm contrasts strongly with your announced focus of comboing T1 or T2, but is a lot more like I play brainstorm after all the "fetchland, go" against Delver except that I cast Brainstorm eot and fetch away the crap, untap, draw a fresh card and can combo

[Final Fortune]

The problem is I think there are two decks using the same core that are in conflict with one another, the original TES with Chrome Mox and the new TnT with Rite of Flame. I agree cutting Empty the Warrens is an absolutely terrible idea, because then you're a fundamentally T3 deck, but cutting Chrome Mox in order to become a more consistent T2 deck in a metagame full of Spell Pierce and Daze has a lot of merrit. I think the problem with the discussion is that there are too many proponents on the far extremes, I've tried lists with 3, 2, 1 and 0 Chrome Mox, with Swamp, with Island, with Badlands, with Bayou and I think all of them have their strengths and weaknesses. I don't think Chrome Mox should be cut completely, but I do think we don't need as many. I think both Bryant and I are on 2 at the moment with a SB Bayou to be able to cut 1, the right number of them is probably in the margins as I don't like having to float mana every time I cast Ad Nauseam. Even 1 copy makes a discernable difference on life loss vs aggro-control, which is why I've disregarded Rain of Filth altogether - it's really not that awful as a Black Rite of Flame, it's just no where near as good here as it is in ANT.

[Bryant Cook]

Alexandre's Article for this week!

http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-epic-storm-approaches-the-magdalen-coast-deja-vu/

[LDX]

Alexandre's Article for this week!

http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-epic-storm-approaches-the-magdalen-coast-deja-vu/

Thanks for the publicity!

For anyone interested, this is the report of my last tournament, after we discussed about Chalice that much. Everything that happened should be explained there.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask!

[JamieW89]

r1:
To me it feels a little weird to board Swarms vs dredge; although I guess they can have fow/shoals/traps and you can remove bridges with flashback therapy.

r2g1:
I would always brainstorm there against a deck with t2 lockpieces, especially if he's mulling to them. I would likely brainstorm from the LP, especially if the land was a fetch so that you can refresh the top of your deck (next turn if you fizzle and he somehow has nothing important, this turn with a probe or even another cantrip or if you need to therapy his thalia(s) post-bs).
r2g2:
The question is whether drawing empty is going to be good if he somehow stabilizes or ratchet bombs your tokens at which point he will likely have some hate on the board. I don't think it's that bad of a draw here, since it will be easier to make a few more tokens for the last lifepoints than to combo through his stuff later. Will hardly ever matter in any case.
r2r3:
A hand with 4 lands and a mulligan (mox) seems a little slow in the matchup, even if the 2 remaining cards are very good. Oh, and my suggestion of Hurkyl's Recall seems quite good against Chalice@0,Chalice@1,double Ethersworn Canonist + Mother of Runes :P.

r4g1:
I think the strategic plan of going slow, wiping their board, and building up against elves is wrong.
r4g3:
I don't think I'd make 12 goblins on the draw here, assuming the other draw (turn/probe) was a blank. They should be able to stabilize, and you are quite close to a PiF kill. It also depends on his hand ofcourse; if he had 4 discard spells I'd have made tokens, if he had green cards I'd pass (and consider playing LED vs discard)). PiF seems like a strange card to board without Tendrils main, but I don't play TES enough to comment on that.

Afterthoughts:
Decks such as the DnT deck with Chalice, Leylines, eTutor (incl goblin hate) shouldn't exist in real tournaments (although there are often a few combo-hating people out there in the early rounds), but I'm sure that's been mentioned before :P. At least playing in an inbred metagame will teach you about worst case scenarios in all the matchups..
Decay is okay against DnT, but not great (although it helps against the Chalice version). Against standard lists I don't even board all the ones in my board in ANT, with 2 green duals and more lands than TES. It's a very good SB card for Counterbalance and Chalice, but not the matchup specific answer. If you really want to prepare for them I'd board in 4 Dread of Nights, 2 Hurkyl's Recall, 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Void Snare with Massacre being available to wish for. You can probably cut all the decays, swarms, the 2nd chain and 1-2 of your removal wishtargets (Grapeshot imo) in your metagame (that's 2-3 cuts too many, in which you could run dedicated dredge hate since you play it every week anyways; e.g. Planar Void and an artifact hate wish slot)).

Maybe something like this:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Artifact-Hate (affinity+crazy DnT, likely Shattering Spree?)

4 Dread of Night (crazy DnT)
2 Hurkyl's Recall (affinity+crazy DnT)
1 Chain of Vapor (Catch-all)
2 Planar Void (Dredge + possibly Reanimate if he still plays that)

Perhaps you want the 2nd Chain over one of the anti-hate pieces for DnT.

[LDX]

A big thanks for the detailled answers!


r1:
To me it feels a little weird to board Swarms vs dredge; although I guess they can have fow/shoals/traps and you can remove bridges with flashback therapy.

Right or wrong, she plays a playset of each cards you mentionned, so 12 counterspell total, and she has no way to remove the Xantid. We both know that if she does counterspell me, most likely, that will be a huge step back for her as she needs to draw in order to discard. Meanwhile, I can just play more lands to make sure I'll go out properly when I have the opening. Honestly, Xantid are working great so far against her. :smile:



r2g1:
I would always brainstorm there against a deck with t2 lockpieces, especially if he's mulling to them. I would likely brainstorm from the LP, especially if the land was a fetch so that you can refresh the top of your deck (next turn if you fizzle and he somehow has nothing important, this turn with a probe or even another cantrip or if you need to therapy his thalia(s) post-bs).

That's what I'll most likely do next time, if given the opportunity.



r2g2:
The question is whether drawing empty is going to be good if he somehow stabilizes or ratchet bombs your tokens at which point he will likely have some hate on the board. I don't think it's that bad of a draw here, since it will be easier to make a few more tokens for the last lifepoints than to combo through his stuff later. Will hardly ever matter in any case.

Fair point. I always thought going for Grapeshot/Tendrils for 4-6-8 was easier than winning via an other round of Goblins, but I might be wrong and will take your word into consideration. As you say, it will likely not matter, but it's still good to know.



r2g3:
A hand with 4 lands and a mulligan (mox) seems a little slow in the matchup, even if the 2 remaining cards are very good. Oh, and my suggestion of Hurkyl's Recall seems quite good against Chalice@0,Chalice@1,double Ethersworn Canonist + Mother of Runes :P.

To be honest, I think you're right. That hand wasn't keepable under the circunstances, thanks for showing me. Regarding Hurkyl's Recall, the card really seems awesome, but I didn't sleeve it for 3 reasons:

-First, I didn't think a lot of situation would happen in which Chalice & Ethersworn would be on the field at the same time.
-Second, I wanted a card to get rid of Thalia, if I needed to, thus Echoing Truth.
-Third, and most importantly... the reason I didn't even test it, is because I know I won't be able to have a playset before the end of summer.

Given the possibility I would test it.



r4g1:
I think the strategic plan of going slow, wiping their board, and building up against elves is wrong.

It's not my first plan, it was mostly regarding a mulligan or not. I'm curious tho, how far are you ready to go on the safety/speed ratio against them?



r4g3:
I don't think I'd make 12 goblins on the draw here, assuming the other draw (turn/probe) was a blank. They should be able to stabilize, and you are quite close to a PiF kill. It also depends on his hand ofcourse; if he had 4 discard spells I'd have made tokens, if he had green cards I'd pass (and consider playing LED vs discard)). PiF seems like a strange card to board without Tendrils main, but I don't play TES enough to comment on that.

From memory, he had something like 2 Natural Order, 1 Glimpse of Nature, and a land. The reason I discarded the Past in Flames idea quickly was a Deathrite Shaman in play. It could have been the good choice still, but I clearly remember that I didn't want to fight though it. I could have been wrong without a doubt tho.

Regarding the sideboard, well, I guess it's a strategic issue from my part. I mean the following: the website suggests

+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Void Snare
+1 Thoughtseize
-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
-1 Empty the Warrens

I always thought the reason to bring bounce effects was a lack of sweepers in the board. Pyroclasm is hell of a ''permanent base problem fixer'' against Elves. I have no room to run Thoughtseize, and regarding the Duress, I took Lemnear advice...


I see. Siding EtW out against Elves is valid; I would however keep the Duress as stripping Glimpse or NO can really set them back to a slow aggro deck. I like chopping Therapies or Ponder first here tbh.

...as again, I didn't feel the need to bring anything else in. I don't know if Past in Flames is a valid answer to their discard, but if you asked me now, I would believe it's better than having Empty the Warrens just to block a few creatures until we (or they) combo, given that Craterhoof provides Trample. It's a habit (suggest by someone else I believe?) I took from playing so much against Pox, when I got tired of losing to Pernicious Deeds.



Afterthoughts:
Decks such as the DnT deck with Chalice, Leylines, eTutor (incl goblin hate) shouldn't exist in real tournaments (although there are often a few combo-hating people out there in the early rounds), but I'm sure that's been mentioned before :P. At least playing in an inbred metagame will teach you about worst case scenarios in all the matchups..
Decay is okay against DnT, but not great (although it helps against the Chalice version). Against standard lists I don't even board all the ones in my board in ANT, with 2 green duals and more lands than TES. It's a very good SB card for Counterbalance and Chalice, but not the matchup specific answer. If you really want to prepare for them I'd board in 4 Dread of Nights, 2 Hurkyl's Recall, 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Void Snare with Massacre being available to wish for. You can probably cut all the decays, swarms, the 2nd chain and 1-2 of your removal wishtargets (Grapeshot imo) in your metagame (that's 2-3 cuts too many, in which you could run dedicated dredge hate since you play it every week anyways; e.g. Planar Void and an artifact hate wish slot)).

Maybe something like this:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Artifact-Hate (affinity+crazy DnT, likely Shattering Spree?)

4 Dread of Night (crazy DnT)
2 Hurkyl's Recall (affinity+crazy DnT)
1 Chain of Vapor (Catch-all)
2 Planar Void (Dredge + possibly Reanimate if he still plays that)

Perhaps you want the 2nd Chain over one of the anti-hate pieces for DnT.

The suggestions seem good. I'll double check if I can get some Hurkyl's Recall. I like quite a lot how you specify each cards role, it helps me understand a bit better the decision behind each of them.

That said, how would you board this specificly? Mostly in D&T match. 4 Dread of Night seems awesome when backed up with Chalice hate, but it requires that I can play those at first, meaning no Chalice first or having Hurkyl's in hand. It's it, I don't know, asking too much? I see it like you're suggesting a slower approach that we discarded quite early already, as controlish never worked against them. Mind you, my noob eye tends to believe in your list, but I'm trying to see what's that different. Wouldn't we go from creating the smallest (with Abrupt/Shattering Spree/Echoing Truth ) of opening and hope, to a let's surrender to death, and if death chooses to kill us slowly, we might see an opening builds up?

Not that it would be a problem, at this point I'm open to try everything I can. But do you believe it?

[KaiSchafroth]

Took down the local Legacy FNM tonight; including as many notes as I took; most games were pretty straight-forward.

Current List:
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Dark Petition
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
1 Pyroblast
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
2 Xantid Swarm


List of decks that were out tonight (that I remember):
TES
Lands x2
Goblins
Grixis Delver
UWR Stoneblade
UR Delver
4c Delver
Pox
4c Midrange
Burn
Death & Taxes
Something else I can't think of



R1: Death & Taxes
G1: No idea what this guy is on, opener really just needed a red source to go for EtW or an LED to pair with IT. He opens on Wasteland; vial. The single USea in my hand is looking quite a bit worse now. Draw step doesn't help, Ponder shuffle fails and soon enough I'm just discarding to hand size, under a Thalia and scoop it up.

+2Cov, +1 Snare, +1 TS, -2 Duress, -2 CR

G2: Opener is Mire, Probe, LED, LED, Petal, Void Snare, IT. Probe reveals some critters and Cage, draws another LED and we T1 him.

G3: Karakas, go. Okay...open on a Thoughtseize taking his Thalia and leaving him with some ports, 2nd Karakas and a Jitte. I build up some lands while he eventually drops SFM for Skull - probably figuring the bit of can-tripping and just draw-go means he needs to put the beat stick on. Upkeep he goes to port and I just DR, AN with a a few additional rituals, LED, and a Petal already in hand.

2-1


R2: 4c Midrange - the deck is hard to describe, it's more or less a meta deck. Counter-top, living wish package, loam engine, etc. Good bit of spice between main deck EE, variety of counters and the wish package.

G1: Had the T1 nuts with probe+discard if it had been needed. He doesn't have a FoW to stop me.

+2Decay, +2 Xantid, +1 Pyroblast, +1ToA, +1Bayou, +1Thoughtseize, -1EtW, -4 Ponder, -1 CM, -2 CR
Very possible this is overboarding but seemed reasonable given the weird mix of 'stuff' that's going on with this deck. I mostly treat it like miracles.

G2: Opener can go T1 if he has nothing...Grove, top, pass. I probe to see that he has no additional land, FoW but no blue card. I figure that if I lose to a blind draw with the Top then that's life. We get there with an easy Ad Naus.

2-0


R3: Grixis Delver
G1: T2 Ad Naus for a big ol' tendrils

+1 Bayou, +2 Xantid, -2 Ponder, -1 CR

G2: We play draw go for a while, he seems to have a hand full of permission but no threats. I manage to bait maybe two counters on some BW (would have been going for TS or Ponder if necessary). I eventually decide to go for it, drop some mana and tutor up 18 goblins. I pass, he draws, he scoops. He said he messed up at one point on not clearing the top of his deck with a fetch and I'm honestly happy never knowing what could have been on top.

2-0

R4: RG Lands
As the only undefeated players my opponent is looking for a draw. He says he hasn't played the storm match-up but is basically 100% that it's near 0% in his favor. I'm happy to save some time and just ID this round. We play the games out just to kill time while we wait for others to play through.

G1: Slow opening but a pair of cantrips and we eventually Ad Naus, Wish, Tendrils.

+2Decay, +2 Cov, +1Thoughtseize, +1 Bayou, -1EtW, -2CR, -3 Therapy
We play a boarded game so he can get the experience.

G2: Sadly he doesn't really get much of an experience as I T2 Ad Naus for the kill. I did open on a Duress just in case. His opener was something like Mox Diamond and lands so I'm a little surprised he didn't try to mull into hate or something with a little more umph. Apparently he brought in a Chalice and 3x Sphere of Resistance but just didn't get to even draw them.

ID (2-0 in the time killer games)


3-0-1 to add a sizable chunk of store credit to my horde.


EXTRA
Had a bit of a fun line with DP during one of the fun/testing matches before the night actually started. I'm sure there was another option and granted I didn't really take notes for this so I can't recall what other plays I could have gone with.
Playing against the 4c deck above and I need to get moving but no RoF and just a Volc for red mana (cutting off PiF with some can trips in the yard). After a pair of rituals I have USea untapped with 5B floating, BW being cast and with IT in hand. BW gets DP, DP gets LED plus 3B floating which lets us IT for AN.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi all I have to say I'm in testing phase to determine what I'm going to bring to the MKM series which will be in Madrid soon... I'd like to bring TES in some way and will try to adapt it to what I think it is the best.... I hope I will not have any need to bring my TNT heavy artillery deck...

This is my 2nd tornament and I have some aftermaths after the tournament, the other day I played one and now it is the 2nd small tournament..., the list I played was:

Current List:
4 Gemstone Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 City of brass - this is the difference from the 1st tournament switching from ShittyVolcanicIsland

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip - maybe I switch to wipe away...
1 Bayou
1 Dark Petition
1 Empty the Warrens
1 pyroclasm
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Duress
1 Void Snare
2 Xantid Swarm

The tournament was bad - not awfull as I started playing vs MUD and even I won one match up in here, the other 2 were just pain looses...
I want to expose how expecifically 2 match ups developed:
- VS a Kind of Control Deck with lots of Instants I think looks like this:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17676&iddeck=133135

- The 1st mach up was an incredible game me evaluating each play and forcing the opponent to play their counterspells, on overall I needed to go thorugh 2 FoWs, 2 Pyros, 1Spellsnare, 1 counterspell, 1Flusterstorm, the game was long but I finally won as the pressure was almost inexistent except for the secure the wastes - In here I have to recognize that I was solid with my duals being able to cast almost anything I could need, the opp. did't believe how lost this one, ha ha

- The 2nd game I kept a strange hand with LED, PEtal, Threats and 4 Gitaxian - I guarranty this. and wasn't able to handle the game without lands (1 even beeing destroyed) and a Vendilion

- The 3rd game was as we say in spanish 'Un jarro de agua fria' - like a bucket of cold water I mean - I drew as unique lands 2 Gemstones mire and I suffered the pain for first time of beeing advocated to autodestruction as we even reach a game state in which the opponent needed to discard!!! - likely playing another manabase or ANT or TNT the match up would have been easily won... talking after the round with my opp. he even didn't side any permanent hate, just more flusters and pyroclasms... I noticed this anyway in this 3rd match up so that I put back the EtW for 1 of my A.D. having total 1A.D, 1EtW 2 Xantids. Even that lonely A.D. was useless but I didn't draw it... The game developed me playing some cantrips and at some point I had to discard and as before I played I.T. to 2nd RoF to try to cast EtW in hand and trying to not to invest too many resources... I played LED, Petal , RoF, RoF, and Duress (FoWed) and EtW, he on next turn played 1 of his 2 pryroclasms - the fact that I had left 1 Gemstone with 1 counter left frustrated me and I conceded angry as I suddently realized I needed to change my mana base and therefore restructurate my for so long inmutable TES deck...Please readers have in mind this point for my next RUG match up....

vs RUG with nimbles, dazes, stifles -well all you know..., a match up I always love to play against, it was a shame the opp. wasn't very good at playing the deck...

Surprinsingly I talked to other boy who played TES and he also played against the same archetype and lost because of stifles, curiously I will say how the games developed for me:
- 1st game I started and played land G.P and ponder seeing just a daze and delver and ponder., and trying to set up a tons of gobs though a daze for the next turn, he justs plays Delver - WTF?, then I look at him trying to imagine if he drew FoW or not - he didn't seem and won him with tons of gobs.

- The 2ng game is the thing most contradictory - see note from before match up and the loose my Storm Mate suffered...
he plays land and pass the turn, I gitaxian having fetch and Gemstone and duress and rituals, I see 2 stifles, 2 tarmos forked bolt and delver, I strip 1 stifle, next turn he plays delver, next I draw therapy, play other gitaxian and drew 2nd therapy great!, I play therapy to stifle then fetch for U.Seah and strip 2 Tarmos! on next turns I play tons of gobs and won stripping also the forked bolt left... there is a fact and is that if the gemstone had been fetch I had been advocated to autodestruction in here....



Aftermaths:

a) After 2 recent tournaments and some goldfishing I have some conclusions:
the deck performed very well, however I faced the Control archetype I before mentioned which just overloads on counterspells of all falvours- I can't imagine the hand my opp. kept in 3rd game... as said in here I had to play an attrition game and in here gemstones were just bad... NOTE: this didn't happen vs RUG or Grixis or other archetypes, uniquely THIS archetype, which is enough to start to change my mind regarding the manabase...

b) On the other hand Gemstones behave as usual and liked the way they perform EXCEPT vs this archetype... will gemstones need to be substituted by fetches? will this change make me loose vs RUG? this is what scares me the most...

c) C.M. performs very well in the 2 tournaments as they provides me the enough speed to win me the 1st games vs ANT or Grixis delver or Omnishow, it worked also very well with B.W. to D.P.! fuck yeah!

d) so my next thought was If I want to play fetches and see how this performs vs RUG, which card I will take?, I asked to my Storm Mate between C.M. and duress, we agree that cutting 3rd duress is the less worst option...

e) the other point is that in goldfishing and in real torunament I realized 10 G Mana Sources is the minimum to cast Xantid ASAP, So which is the manbase which allows this?


Conclusions:
inevitably I had to evaluate in switching to Full CoB manabase following the next premises:
- A.N needs to be casted ASAP in order to be effective vs Agro decks, therefore having CoB instead of Gesmtones shouldn't be a problem - 1 to 3 life points?
- For the long game and once I am at low life total, A.N won't be casted and CoB life points will be irrelevant however it is a land which produces all colours with no need of taking out counters - perfect then! even I have access to CoB_V.2.0!
- I still dont see any reason to play more lands to avoid WastelandAndBlue.deck, however I see a reason to beeing able to cast several spells under 2 lands to win attrition games (Ex.: I.T. to Theray, B.W. to duress or to threat, Cantrips, etc...)
- On the other hand I will test as the rest of my StormMates the Fetch manabase - Well - better late than never! BUT having access to 10 G Manasources!
Well, this is the manabase I will test after some thoughts:

1 Verdant catacombs
4 Polluted
4 B.Mire
2 U.Sea
1 V.Island
1 Badlands

Plus Bayou in side

About the manabase:
- I believe it is the perfect one BUT I will need to test if I will not encounter scenarios in which I have dead fetches in hand... for 2nd and 3rd games I most of the times will bring bayou so I don't think so... Still testing....
- 9 fetches plus Bayou is the key to get the goal of 10 G Mana sources
- I have 3 blue producers, 3 black producers and 2 red producers to beeing able to handle mainly the following scenarios and derivated:

a) C.M on ponder plus fetch for badlands to cast B.W. or I.T. on 1st turn to the needed card
b) fetch to U.Sea to ponder to beeing able on next turn to play fetch to Badlands to cast disruption or B.W. or I.T. or cantrip
c) fetch to U.Sea to discard, next turn B.S. and fetch to badlands to discard or other thing
d) if Volcanic Island is wastelanded I still have Badlands, however with this manabase I find that U.Sea is the card I most of the times will search the first turn, which is also the one that handle most scenarios...

@Bahamut, Lemnear and Final Fortune mainly which are your opinions? others of course are welcome.

[Final Fortune]

One manabase Bryant suggested and I tested was 8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 1 Volcanic, 1 Badland and an Island with 2 Mox, it was robust albeit slower.

[Lemnear]

my opinion is that you are 1,5 years to late and try to reinvent a Fetch/Dual manabase which is already available in a tuned and tested version.

Panicing because of Stifle isn't adequate, because the number of the card in field dropped, as traditional RUG Delver faced serious troubles to overcome SFM + TNN since early 2014 and the printing of Treasure Cruise and DTT isolated Stifle even more, so running Fetchlands lost it's only traditional predator, while the number of blue decks and grindy matchups (see: Gemstones depleting) rose.

P.S.: 9/4 Split of Fetches/Duals isn't optimal as you lack fetchable manasources in longer games,, even if the problem is smoothed by the sideable Bayou

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Bryant Cook is 9-0 with TES after day one of SCGDC.

[Pelikanudo]

@Lemnear:

Ha! Well, I think it is opposite my friend..., look at this ManaBase I proposed... when you all still were toying at manabases with fetchlands including Bayou or other strange stuff....
EDIT: Please say 'sorry you were right' ;)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=895991&viewfull=1#post895991

Looking at the Deck Bryant played recently, it seems that this is the exact manabase I proposed....
The unique difference between the MainBase I proposed and the Current Bryant MainBase is just +1Duress = -1C.Mox which won him the tournament... I'm happy for that...

Recently I played 2 tournaments and I was looong time out of magic so my thoughts were just theoretical. it was true that after playing the torunaments I realized I needed to change the manabase and maybe the base...
In these 2 torunaments I realized also I somehow I would prefer t play 10 G Sources instead of 9 thats why I proposed the last manabase - Late testing demonstrated me that in deed 9 fetches were likely too many... so I'm thinking in just using the Base I proposed in this Link or 8 Fetches +1BadLands+2U.Sea+1V.Island + 1CoB.

Likely the marginal rate of the need to use the 10th G Source for Xantid is not worth and looking at the results of Bryant I would likely use from now on that list which is the list I could agree more on... I know Bryant and I don't like each other too much but somehow we agree on the same thoughts from the time I posted this... I would like to know the following, IF anyother by here could answer this I would appreciate...:

- In recent Bryant Tournament how many times Xantid was not played due to the lack of Initial G Sources?
- Was there any occurrence along the tournament in which there was any need to beeing casted Xantid off C.Mox or Petal?

A thought: We really don't know about each other posting in this thread... I for example know Bryant is a Graphic designer or you Lemnear are an archytect - like my sister! or Bahamut is a physician... I Am a Programmer and I can guarranty you that in my world my opinion is not only had in mind is just the Word Of God among my 'loved' coworkers.... all I want to say is that for me still MTG is a hobby and I just don't have any need to stress myself with such stuff... - I like to contribute as I exposed in the link but I'm not the kind of person that accept any kind of suggestions... For me GEmstones worked long time ago... now they just don't work for me and that's all... I'm starting to face new decks...

@Final Fortune:
Yeah having that Island is non sense...
Recent testing with the manabase - as I thought.... demonstrated the 9th fetch was sometimes useless... the other option instead of Verdant catacombs was Wooded fothills but there is a problem and it is that all these 9th fetch only can search 3 of the 4 main duals... thats why I thought in 1 CoB. as I mentioned BUT having access to total 10 G Sources maybe is not worth so the ideal would be maybe the Base Bryant played... with only 2 C.M and 7 discard...
NOTE: This is what I proposed in the link some time ago....

@Bryant:
Please you won the tournament with almost the Base I proposed.... at least answer me these 4 questions....

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=895991&viewfull=1#post895991

- In recent Bryant Tournament how many times Xantid was not played due to the lack of Initial G Sources?
- Was there any occurrence along the tournament in which there was any need to beeing casted Xantid off C.Mox or Petal?
- How many D&T did you face?
- Did you face any Stifle.deck?

Thanks.

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear:

Ha! Well, I think it is opposite my friend..., look at this ManaBase I proposed... when you all still were toying at manabases with fetchlands including Bayou or other strange stuff....
EDIT: Please say 'sorry you were right' ;)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=895991&viewfull=1#post895991

The post in the link is not even two weeks old. Whats the point? I proposed the first full Fetch/Dual manabase beginning of 2014, which is what I was hinting at


Looking at the Deck Bryant played recently, it seems that this is the exact manabase I proposed....
The unique difference between the MainBase I proposed and the Current Bryant MainBase is just +1Duress = -1C.Mox which won him the tournament... I'm happy for that...

Except that we're talking 12 vs 13 lands in the maindeck:

You @ 28.07.2015
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

Bryant @ 22.07.2015
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

you proposed the manabase which is 1 land off and a full 6 days after Bryant updated the website with his manabase.


For me GEmstones worked long time ago... now they just don't work for me and that's all... I'm starting to face new decks...

Which is alien to me as the average metagame switch was end of 2013 and had its climax with TC.


@Bryant: ...at least answer me these 4 questions....

has this ever worked? ;)

[Pelikanudo]

Except that we're talking 12 vs 13 lands in the maindeck:

You @ 28.07.2015
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

Bryant @ 22.07.2015
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp



Some time ago we talked about switching the mana base and one thing we agreed was the following: IF Gemstones are substitued by fetches THEN there is a need to add +1 land (regarding of reaching the same probability of fetch a land with a FetchThatCouldBeAGemstone), this is what I worked on and I believe that at least us - you and me - playing less than 13 lands in a fetchland manabase is nonsense. what Bryant proposed IS nonsense: a Manabase consisting in 12 lands and among them 7 fetches.

It is nonsense also playing less than 12 Blue producers.

Bryant was toying around with even C.Rituals which is something we din't agree either...

This link also exposes my views of what for me makes sense to play regarding a Fetch Manabase:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=896216&viewfull=1#post896216

I am always coherent for what I write...

There is a great difference between playing 12 and 13 lands.

Apart, well if you could ask Bryant those questions somehow it would be great... I believe this is something that matters other people...

Apart, I'm worried about the fact that - once I realized I need to change my manabase - that 9 G IMS could not be enough... in one of recent tournaments this happen to me - maybe it was bad luck... that's why I'd like to ask Bryant this.

Note that I haven't yet tested any fetch manabase the unique I started with is 8 fetch 2 U.Sea, 1 V.Island 1 Badlands 1 CoB... as I also haven't had any issue vs BlueAndWasteland.deck...

[Lemnear]

I don't get the point about Badlands and the lone City of Brass. It's not that Badlands ability to produce B/R has any application to fix the often mentioned Problem of needing B+R during combo turns and is also one of the non - blue sources you hate so much. It doesn't even free a SB slot like the MB Bayou would if your goal is to run 3 Black lands Main.

I wouldn't run less than 13 lands atm, so I agree to some extend, but my Problem was with the claim that you called the "exact" manabase which simply wasn't true and we know that 12 vs 13 matters a lot.

P.S.: Witnessed Bryant dying against Infect in games 2 & 3 because of never finding a second land with his 12 ran

[Pelikanudo]

I don't get the point about Badlands and the lone City of Brass. It's not that Badlands ability to produce B/R has any application to fix the often mentioned Problem of needing B+R during combo turns and is also one of the non - blue sources you hate so much. It doesn't even free a SB slot like the MB Bayou would if your goal is to run 3 Black lands Main.

About Badlands is:
Badlands makes beeing able to fetch in first turn for U.Sea to ponder or maybe duress and in next turn use this same U.Sea to ponder or B.S. and next Fetch to Badlands for Discard,
I've found a lot of scenarios in which I would have preferred to play fetch to U.Sea, however by doing this you sometimes need to B.S. with U.Sea and next want to suffle away and cast discard with the second land fetched.

I believe that the most fetched land in the 1st turn should be U.Sea and not V.Island if you want to play Ponder or B.S.or Discard, do you agree on this?

I still have 12 Blue producers in the deck which I believe it is the minimum.
EDIT: Delted some strange stuff I wrote...





About Lonely CoB is:
to get the goal of playing total G 10 Manasources, which I said may be not relevant, as It is right that 9th fetch does not work with 4 duals.

I wouldn't run less than 13 lands atm, so I agree to some extend, but my Problem was with the claim that you called the "exact" manabase which simply wasn't true and we know that 12 vs 13 matters a lot.

P.S.: Witnessed Bryant dying against Infect in games 2 & 3 because of never finding a second land with his 12 ran


Well, the current Manabase in the TES Web Site is 12 lands, I haven't yet seen the exact manabase (2 V.I 2 U.S 1 Swamp 8 Fetch) in previous lists in any list untill now - recent SCGDC ...

[Lemnear]

T1 discard is a mistake unless you can combo the following turn or KNOW to play against combo, therefore I rarely fetch for U.Sea T1 if I have a second land in hand. On top that I think that T1+T2 discard isn't a common (with 6 discard spells) nor desireable opening for this deck to make Badlands worth including. Pondering off a fetched Volcanic if you just have 1 Fetchland and 1 IMS total in your hand, but a grip full of black cards is nonsense anyways ;)

As mentioned, I prefer Volcanic as my first land unless I have good reasons to get an U.Sea as it is also disguising the deck to some extent. I hate T1 discard vs. Unknown as it's usually a waste unless you can go off T2 and a wasted card/mana, if you just Stare at D&T, Lands or similar (game 1s).

@CoB

If you want to keep 12 blue sources and 10 green postboard it would even make sense to play Tropical instead. Mind, that I don't agree with your stated requirements, but if you want to stick to those, Tropical is your card

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Historically, I haven't agreed with Pelikanudo because most of his points are nonsensical.

[Pelikanudo]

T1 discard is a mistake unless you can combo the following turn or KNOW to play against combo, therefore I rarely fetch for U.Sea T1 if I have a second land in hand.

Agree. better play discard as silence. I expose more scenarios as examples which makes sense to play T1Discard - I refer mainly to just have that chance.

On top that I think that T1+T2 discard isn't a common (with 6 discard spells) nor desireable opening for this deck to make Badlands worth including. Pondering off a fetched Volcanic if you just have 1 Fetchland and 1 IMS total in your hand, but a grip full of black cards is nonsense anyways ;)

Well I would say U/B + B/R -> having a grip of U producers is nonsense also, what matters is to have T1: All available,T2: B/R/U. note also the Bryant Last Deck SCGDC has 13 lands 2 C.M and 7 Discards. What I am evaluating is to play regarding this list +1C.M -1 Dicard

As mentioned, I prefer Volcanic as my first land unless I have good reasons to get an U.Sea as it is also disguising the deck to some extent. I hate T1 discard vs. Unknown as it's usually a waste unless you can go off T2 and a wasted card/mana, if you just Stare at D&T, Lands or similar (game 1s).

Agree T1 discard vs unknow is not good except for: ANT, Omnishow, Therapies X n, D&T for hatebear, Miracles for C.B. so it seems relevant to have at least this chance, isn't it?

@CoB

If you want to keep 12 blue sources and 10 green postboard it would even make sense to play Tropical instead. Mind, that I don't agree with your stated requirements, but if you want to stick to those, Tropical is your card

Tropical is a slow card not allowing you to cast D.R. and either RoF. I would prefer not to play this land.

[Pelikanudo]

Historically, I haven't agreed with Pelikanudo because most of his points are nonsensical.

it is ok, do not mind you have that general opinion, but the current SCG Bryant base is like I posted except -1C.M = +1 Duress. Even that Manabase I didn't play as I was on Gemstones Mire Era due to the lack of playing MTG.

[Lemnear]

How does two Fetches and therfore access to Sea + Volcanic cut you off from T1 discard? It does not. All you ever lose is EXACTLY 1 scenario:

"T1 Fetchland #1 into Discard -> T2 Ponder/Brainstorm into Fetchland #2 into Badlands into discard #2 -> T3 having B+R via two lands"

A Lotus Petal negates the need for the Badlands as well as any additional land would for your turn three on top of the low Chance/value of casting Discard T1 & T2


Edit :

it is ok, do not mind you have that general opinion, but the current SCG Bryant base is like I posted except -1C.M = +1 Duress. Even that Manabase I didn't play as I was on Gemstones Mire Era due to the lack of playing MTG.

WTF dood? Why doesn't +/- 1 Mox, +/- 1 land, +/- 2 Rituals matter to you at all?

[Pelikanudo]

How does two Fetches and therfore access to Sea + Volcanic cut you off from T1 discard? It does not. All you ever lose is EXACTLY 1 scenario:

"T1 Fetchland #1 into Discard -> T2 Ponder/Brainstorm into Fetchland #2 into Badlands into discard #2 -> T3 having B+R via two lands"

A Lotus Petal negates the need for the Badlands as well as any additional land would for your turn three on top of the low Chance/value of casting Discard T1 & T2

Related to this specific question: Agree, it does not.

Ok, then there is +1 Scenario, also add all the scenarios I listed before, it seems that there are enough reasons to play Badlands.
Lotus Petal? maybe I don't understand, I am talking about turn 2
- Really don't you see a benefit playing U.Sea in case there is a need to play Discard in the 1st turn and next play B.S. into other discard?
- U.Sea should be the Land most played in 1st turn because the deck has +7 or +6 Black Spells than Red Spells. it should be the natural choice and not fetching V.Island because next you need to ponder or B.S. with V.I to next fetch for U.S.... this is not logic.

These are some I posted:

a) C.M on ponder plus fetch for badlands to cast B.W. or I.T. on 1st turn to the needed card
b) fetch to U.Sea to ponder to beeing able on next turn to play fetch to Badlands to cast disruption or B.W. or I.T. or cantrip
c) fetch to U.Sea to discard, next turn B.S. and fetch to badlands to discard or other thing
d) if Volcanic Island is wastelanded I still have Badlands, however with this manabase I find that U.Sea is the card I most of the times will search the first turn, which is also the one that handle most scenarios...


Edit :


WTF dood? Why doesn't +/- 1 Mox, +/- 1 land, +/- 2 Rituals matter to you at all?

I compared the List I posted in the Link with the Bryant List which won him the SCG DC Torunament the unique differences were -1 C.M +1 Duress - See links below:
I've never been a fan of C.R. in TES.

Me:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=895991&viewfull=1#post895991

Bryant:
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/storm_with_bryant_cook.html



@Final Fortune:
If you could throw some of your thoughts...

I only see 3 alternatives...

a) 8Fetch 2 U.S, 2 V.I. 1 Swamp:
Con: 9 G Access Sources, not beeing able to cast discard on 1st turn and next B.S. with
Pro: Sitting On Swamp To discard

b) 8Fetch 2 U.S, 2 V.I. 1 Badlands
Con: 9 G Access Sources
Pro: See scenarios above

c) 8Fetch 2 U.S, 1 V.I. 1 Badlands, 1 CoB
Con: CoB cause damage?, Maybe there are chances to draw into dead fetches?
Pro: 10 G Access Sources , See scenarios above

[ManCharm]

Does this site have a block feature? This is a shitshow.

[Bryant Cook]

Does this site have a block feature? This is a shitshow.

It's what happens when you feed trolls.

[jake556]

Does this site have a block feature? This is a shitshow.

Click on the name of the dick head you want to block go to their profile, add to ignore list :) Welcome to The Source!

[ManCharm]

Click on the name of the dick head you want to block go to their profile, add to ignore list :) Welcome to The Source!

You are my favorite <3

[Final Fortune]

@Final Fortune:
If you could throw some of your thoughts...

I only see 3 alternatives...

a) 8Fetch 2 U.S, 2 V.I. 1 Swamp:
Con: 9 G Access Sources, not beeing able to cast discard on 1st turn and next B.S. with
Pro: Sitting On Swamp To discard

b) 8Fetch 2 U.S, 2 V.I. 1 Badlands
Con: 9 G Access Sources
Pro: See scenarios above

c) 8Fetch 2 U.S, 1 V.I. 1 Badlands, 1 CoB
Con: CoB cause damage?, Maybe there are chances to draw into dead fetches?
Pro: 10 G Access Sources , See scenarios above

Badlands doesn't make sense to me without Island, the point is to have accesss to all three colors so that you can continue to develop your position with plays like discard or Burning Wish until you find the 3rd mana sources you need to be able to cast every thing. I think Island is perfectly sensible if you want to be able to Ponder, Go - it's just a bit slow and doesn't follow my T2 ETW Goldfish philosophy.

I think 8 Fetch, 3 Sea, 2 Volc, 2 Mox is a fine alternative manabase as well and my preferred default, I tried the lists with MD Swamp and Bayou and had quite a few problems with sequencing cantrips with fetchlands, which is why I think every land producing blue is pretty important in a land light deck. I think the Swamp vs Underground Sea and a SB Thoughtseize vs 3rd Xantid Swarm is about all we disagree on, I've tried to steer away from aggressively playing Duress as the metagame has progressively become more blue. The value of gathering that information or pre-emptively stopping disruption has gotten less and less to the point where I'd rather just have more consistent mulligans and lose the SB space to the Bayou.

[Lemnear]

Ok, then there is +1 Scenario, also add all the scenarios I listed before, it seems that there are enough reasons to play Badlands.

I have read only 1 scenario (double discard) where you want the badlands and that scenario doesn't make much sense, even statistically


Lotus Petal? maybe I don't understand, I am talking about turn 2

can you combo T2 after your cantrip + discard line? No. You have to move to turn 3 for the combo anyways and here any third land or Petal can fix the red mana, if you start with T1 Sea -> Discard, T2 Ponder/Brainstorm into Fetch for second Sea into Discard to maintain that marginal relevant playline even without Badlands.


- Really don't you see a benefit playing U.Sea in case there is a need to play Discard in the 1st turn and next play B.S. into other discard?

no, its an idiotic playline against unknown


- U.Sea should be the Land most played in 1st turn because the deck has +7 or +6 Black Spells than Red Spells. it should be the natural choice and not fetching V.Island because next you need to ponder or B.S. with V.I to next fetch for U.S.... this is not logic.

Again: No. You don't play this deck off a single IMS anyways and expose a dual T1 only for a) a desperate Ponder into land #2 or b) if you know to play against combo and want to cast the T1 discard or c) if you combo off turn 1. If you Fetch for a Sea to Ponder with the hope to find a second land, you're doing it wrong.

I love to play "Fetch, go" in my first turn to break the fetch in my second turn for Volcanic, Ponder/Brainstorm, dig for Sea with Fetch #2, cast discard and combo turn 3. Even with T1 Ponder, T2 Brainstorm into discard the land sequencing stays the same. I'm shattered that I really have to talk about cantrip fundamentals. Its not logic to choose lands according to colors in the deck rather than cards in hand ;)
These are some I posted:


a) C.M on ponder plus fetch for badlands to cast B.W. or I.T. on 1st turn to the needed card

Doesn't fix Dark Ritual + Wish. We have two colored acceleration/business and have to credit that. How many times do I have to mention that as construction fundament?


b) fetch to U.Sea to ponder to beeing able on next turn to play fetch to Badlands to cast disruption or B.W. or I.T. or cantrip

And how is Volcanic/Sea and different here?


c) fetch to U.Sea to discard, next turn B.S. and fetch to badlands to discard or other thing

As mentioned before: Idiotic playline which could be done with double U.Sea as well. as you don't combo turn 2 anyways but turn 3, a Petal or an additional Fetch/Volcanic can fix colors still.


d) if Volcanic Island is wastelanded I still have Badlands, however with this manabase I find that U.Sea is the card I most of the times will search the first turn, which is also the one that handle most scenarios...

It does not and I explained it before. Does 1 land provide black + red mana for your combo? No, so skip the skewed "1 IMS left after Wasteland" argument.



I compared the List I posted in the Link with the Bryant List which won him the SCG DC Torunament the unique differences were -1 C.M +1 Duress - See links below:

he did not "win" the tournament. this is Day 1 data

[Bryant Cook]

I like how the troll is trying to take credit for my top 8 list, when I posted one two posts above his that was one card different from what I played.

[Lemnear]

I like how the troll is trying to take credit for my top 8 list, when I posted one two posts above his that was one card different from what I played.

anything you were unpleased with? The games 2 & 3 against infect killed me watching

[Bryant Cook]

anything you were unpleased with? The games 2 & 3 against infect killed me watching

I had some pretty bad luck that round, but variance happens. I mulled to 5 game two (Can't do much about that) and game three my Brainstorm just bricked, it happens. I do have some other thoughts which will be in my report.

[Jesture]

I had some pretty bad luck that round, but variance happens. I mulled to 5 game two (Can't do much about that) and game three my Brainstorm just bricked, it happens. I do have some other thoughts which will be in my report.

Bad beats there. Do you side in CoV's for the matchup? Was hoping to see a punish on the misplayed Vines -> Elf instead of Vines -> Inkmoth.

[oSeabass]

Hey All,

After about a 2 year break from Legacy and Magic all together, I have come back into Legacy on MTGO (yea I know, it sucks compared to paper). I had to sell off the majority of my paper collection save Affinity in Modern, and RUG Delver in Legacy. Coming back in on MTGO was cheaper and fit my play schedule a bit more. Storm was the deck I wanted to build online since I had the most fun with it. RUG was the paper deck I kept since the odds of it changing a ton of cards over time was slimmer then Storm changing a bunch of cards.

TLDR: I took a break from Magic for ~2 years. I am back on MTGO. Storm is cheap (ish) on MTGO. I am looking to buy Storm.

What are the big changes (summary is fine) and why? I see now that we cut white and Silence from the board, Wish board is still intact to a degree, etc.
I know back 2 years back I played TES over ANT since the speed seemed to be very powerful to just spit out 14 ish Goblins and win off that turn 1. Is this still the main difference between the decks, "Speed + Mana Producers (C. Mox, RoF) + Wish Board (more tutors)" versus "More discard + Graveyard dependent (cabal rit, PiF) + 2 Color Manabase".

Thanks in advance, happy to be back!
-Seabass

[Final Fortune]

Hey All,

After about a 2 year break from Legacy and Magic all together, I have come back into Legacy on MTGO (yea I know, it sucks compared to paper). I had to sell off the majority of my paper collection save Affinity in Modern, and RUG Delver in Legacy. Coming back in on MTGO was cheaper and fit my play schedule a bit more. Storm was the deck I wanted to build online since I had the most fun with it. RUG was the paper deck I kept since the odds of it changing a ton of cards over time was slimmer then Storm changing a bunch of cards.

TLDR: I took a break from Magic for ~2 years. I am back on MTGO. Storm is cheap (ish) on MTGO. I am looking to buy Storm.

What are the big changes (summary is fine) and why? I see now that we cut white and Silence from the board, Wish board is still intact to a degree, etc.
I know back 2 years back I played TES over ANT since the speed seemed to be very powerful to just spit out 14 ish Goblins and win off that turn 1. Is this still the main difference between the decks, "Speed + Mana Producers (C. Mox, RoF) + Wish Board (more tutors)" versus "More discard + Graveyard dependent (cabal rit, PiF) + 2 Color Manabase".

Thanks in advance, happy to be back!
-Seabass

We cut White, moved to a Fetchland manabase, increased the number of lands and decreased the number of Chrome Mox in order to be a more consistent and resilient T2 Storm deck.

Most of the thread has just been squabbling over the exact configuration of lands and number of Chrome Mox.

@Bryant

Do you have any thoughts on 13 land/2 Mox vs 14 lands/1 Mox MD?

[Bryant Cook]

We cut White, moved to a Fetchland manabase, increased the number of lands and decreased the number of Chrome Mox in order to be a more consistent and resilient T2 Storm deck.

Most of the thread has just been squabbling over the exact configuration of lands and number of Chrome Mox.

@Bryant

Do you have any thoughts on 13 land/2 Mox vs 14 lands/1 Mox MD?

If you watched any of the coverage, my Ad Nauseams were praying to reveal more Chrome Moxes in most scenarios. I'm sticking to two.

[oSeabass]

We cut White, moved to a Fetchland manabase, increased the number of lands and decreased the number of Chrome Mox in order to be a more consistent and resilient T2 Storm deck.

Most of the thread has just been squabbling over the exact configuration of lands and number of Chrome Mox.

@Bryant

Do you have any thoughts on 13 land/2 Mox vs 14 lands/1 Mox MD?

Thanks for the update. I know back when I ran it I really liked having the Chrome Mox since I found myself relying on the AN route more often then not. In those scenarios having another 0 mana source when I have to go all in with no floating mana and hope for a source seems great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Final Fortune]

When you cut Chrome Mox, you have to significantly change how you approach Ad Nauseam, you play "new" TES a lot closer to ANT via floating mana rather than "old" TES and it takes some getting used to. I default board out ETW g2 vs BUG/RUG tho', so cutting the 4cc card may have an impact. Granted it's a pretty delicate balance if you want to play Ad Nauseam aggressively.

[LDX]

When you cut Chrome Mox, you have to significantly change how you approach Ad Nauseam, you play "new" TES a lot closer to ANT via floating mana rather than "old" TES and it takes some getting used to. I default board out ETW g2 vs BUG/RUG tho', so cutting the 4cc card may have an impact. Granted it's a pretty delicate balance if you want to play Ad Nauseam aggressively.

If I may quickly ask, what makes you choose the Ad Nauseam route per default over a quick EtW vs BUG/RUG?

[Bryant Cook]

I'd like to note that against Grixis Delver & RUG Delver, I kept both Moxes in and sided out a Ponder for the Bayou.

[LDX]

I'd like to note that against Grixis Delver & RUG Delver, I kept both Moxes in and sided out a Ponder for the Bayou.

If you choose to note that, I'll then ask you the same question: do you prefer to go for Ad Nauseam or Empty the Warrens against BUG/RUG (and I would guess Grixis too) by default? Why your choice over the other?

Of course, granted that you have a reasonnable choice between the two, as sometimes an option becomes more difficult.

[Bryant Cook]

If you choose to note that, I'll then ask you the same question: do you prefer to go for Ad Nauseam or Empty the Warrens against BUG/RUG (and I would guess Grixis too) by default? Why your choice over the other?

Of course, granted that you have a reasonnable choice between the two, as sometimes an option becomes more difficult.

I go for whatever is more situationally appropriate? While keeping in mind if they possibly sided in sweepers in post-board games. This is a very weird question as you should know by now that these questions are almost useless in a vacuum.

@Peter - I noticed a post from you yesterday saying my brainstorm failed because I only had twelve lands. I played thirteen and actually sided in the fourteenth in that match-up.

[LDX]

I go for whatever is more situationally appropriate? While keeping in mind if they possibly sided in sweepers in post-board games. This is a very weird question as you should know by now that these questions are almost useless in a vacuum.

I agree, but I'm not pulling this question out of nothing. I'm trying, really :)

What motivates my question out of the vacuum is that someone like Final Fortune seems to choose one over the other right while he sideboards, as he says he ''default board out ETW g2 vs BUG/RUG''. To me, that's an arbitrary preference and choice for the incoming game. No, it doesn't mean Ad Nauseam because his only way of winning or is a definite choice, but it clearly shows that he prefers to go that way over EtW, no? (If we take for granted Peter is right when he says the best chances for EtW to come quickly is from your hand and not after an IT or BW, which I believe.)

If by your answer, I must understand that you don't have a preference under the same circumstances and that I shouldn't ask you questions about others preferences while you don't share them, then you gave me a proper answer.



On an other topic, regarding this discussion again from your games against hard hate, is there any hope to expect in your report how you are ''being fast'' (what does it involve? anyone can win turn 1 with a good hand, so how do you work to be quick) and what is this ''knowledge of the matchups'' you have? By all means, if you prefer to keep that to yourself, that's fine (we indeed can ask a lot sometimes...), but you wouldn't believe I would get satisfied/learn anything with these anwers, would you? :laugh:

[Final Fortune]

There are different approaches to post-board, you can either wait a game to see whether or not they SBed in hate vs Empty the Warrens and how much hate they SBed in or you can assume they would SB in hate for Empty the Warrens and therefore you should SB it out now, in Chess it's called Prophylaxis or anticipating the opponent's strategy and making a move in order to prevent said strategy. You reduce the utility of your Infernal Tutor by cutting Empty the Warrens, but you increase the efficacy of Ad Nauseam and decrease the utility of their Empty the Warrens hate as well.

I think of the deck as 3c Aggro Goblins game 1 and an Ad Nauseam deck game 2 in match ups where token sweepers are common, but that's not to say I still don't Burning Wish for it.

[Bryant Cook]

I agree, but I'm not pulling this question out of nothing. I'm trying, really :)

What motivates my question out of the vacuum is that someone like Final Fortune seems to choose one over the other right while he sideboards, as he says he ''default board out ETW g2 vs BUG/RUG''. To me, that's an arbitrary preference and choice for the incoming game. No, it doesn't mean Ad Nauseam because his only way of winning or is a definite choice, but it clearly shows that he prefers to go that way over EtW, no? (If we take for granted Peter is right when he says the best chances for EtW to come quickly is from your hand and not after an IT or BW, which I believe.)

If by your answer, I must understand that you don't have a preference under the same circumstances and that I shouldn't ask you questions about others preferences while you don't share them, then you gave me a proper answer.

To me, the question of "Do you side out ETW versus RUG/BUG?" is what you're actually trying to ask. If this is the case, all you had to do was read the match-up guide on the site. To which, the answer is no.



On an other topic, regarding this discussion again from your games against hard hate, is there any hope to expect in your report how you are ''being fast'' (what does it involve? anyone can win turn 1 with a good hand, so how do you work to be quick) and what is this ''knowledge of the matchups'' you have? By all means, if you prefer to keep that to yourself, that's fine (we indeed can ask a lot sometimes...), but you wouldn't believe I would get satisfied/learn anything with these anwers, would you? :laugh:

I mean, there's no big secret. It's about learning the values of cards in certain match-ups, like how Ponder is too slow against D&T and MUD too often. You'll want to keep hands that are explosive on turns 1 or 2. You're not going to find some big reveal and suddenly be able to beat the ridiculous decks your friends built to beat you.

[LDX]

Fair points, once again.

[Bryant Cook]

My tournament report from this past weekend: http://www.theepicstorm.com/storming-into-washington-dc-08092015-fifth-place/

[Togores]

Gj!

Good you beat Edward Cullen (this guys life muss be hard with the name of a so meh vampire).

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120919/2607590-edward-cullen-eclipse.jpg

[Bryant Cook]

That's what that name is from?! His life is rough.