[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[AriLax]

But i really dont know about the probe instead of ad nauseam. It's crazy to double your chances to begin with ad nauseam, but in the other side.....probe is pretty insane 2.

I'm personally on the side of having 2x Ad Naus. I want as many T1/T2 kills as possible in the current metagame, and one of the best ways to have this happen is draw Ad Naus in your opening 7.

Two notes on this:
1. I've set up a lot of Brainstorm -> Ponder in response crack LED and draw the Ad Naus I hid kills. Be aware this is a thing.
2. I may run much better than expectations on Ad Naus, but even with 2 in the deck I think I maybe have died to it a most three or four times in ~30-40 rounds of play, including a few sub-ten life wins. This is pretty absurd considering A) I win at least 75% of my games with the card (+15% Dim Ret, +5% EtW and IGG each) and B) I win a lot of my matches. It probably comes out to about 95+% to win post-Ad Naus.

[zmattk]

Made me a TES istead of a ANT, and what motivated me was: its harder to play and underated! This deck is fire.!

But i really dont know about the probe instead of ad nauseam. It's crazy to double your chances to begin with ad nauseam, but in the other side.....probe is pretty insane 2.

You guys that are testing it....what moment is ad nauseam better than the probe(surely is a moment) ?


Flipping a ad nauseam its the worst feeling ever......youre like: " ok im winning", and then : " ok, maybe Ill lose"


I agree with Ari here. I'm still using 2 Ad Nauseam. A lot of my turn one wins are because I have Ad Nauseam in hand. And while having only one makes Ad Nauseam better since you won't ever lose 5 life from it, it puts a lot of pressure on that one Ad Nauseam. I'd be more reluctant to cast a turn 1 Ad Nauseam in fear if it got countered I couldn't come back. It makes me it much riskier to keep a hand with it because you lose a huge engine if it gets discarded as well. There's also the disadvantage of casting Probe and seeing multiple counters and just having to pass. This is just what i prefer though because I'm comfortable with the style of play that comes with 2 Ad Nauseam. The Probes seem to be working for Bryant who is a much better pilot of this deck than I am.

@Ari Lax
The only time the Reanimate situation would come up is if they cast Exhume first and respond with Entomb. I know Reanimator players know this trick if they have Entomb in hand and the creature they wanted gets removed with Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre but I'm not sure how often they would cast Exhume without anything in the GY in fear of losing 2 cards if something went wrong.

[SaberTooth]

I'm personally on the side of having 2x Ad Naus. I want as many T1/T2 kills as possible in the current metagame, and one of the best ways to have this happen is draw Ad Naus in your opening 7.

Two notes on this:
1. I've set up a lot of Brainstorm -> Ponder in response crack LED and draw the Ad Naus I hid kills. Be aware this is a thing.
2. I may run much better than expectations on Ad Naus, but even with 2 in the deck I think I maybe have died to it a most three or four times in ~30-40 rounds of play, including a few sub-ten life wins. This is pretty absurd considering A) I win at least 75% of my games with the card (+15% Dim Ret, +5% EtW and IGG each) and B) I win a lot of my matches. It probably comes out to about 95+% to win post-Ad Naus.

this. the deck is about abuse ad nauseam, that's why tes runs 2. it's our best engine, and even when i kill myself (for example being at19 life turn 2 and PUM, dead) i love the card. if i play against burn or affinity, for exaple, i'll cut the 2nd nauseam for game 2. i think that our main problem is the sideboard.

sry 4 my english

[Basaka]

I also like the 2nd AdN.

There are some situations where I have AdN, IT, and LED in hand, and crack LED discardnig AdN for the second copy as I need the mana from LED.

[thefringthing]

I resisted the second Ad Nauseam for a long time, eventually adopted it and played it at GP Indianapolis. I don't really feel too strongly one way or the other about it. I suppose I have a slight preference for Bryant's current maindeck. (Though I am on Ari's sideboard from Detroit for now.)

On the one hand, having only one Ad Nauseam in the deck improves your Ad Nauseam flips a bit. On the other, you sometimes encounter situations where you can't go off because the Ad Nauseam you want to get with an Infernal Tutor is stuck in your hand, or was exiled by Diminishing Returns, had to go under a Chrome Mox, etc.

[joemauer]

In my limited testing I have done with the new list I like it.

A resolved Ad Nauseam is much better in the new list, much more predictable. Less of a crapshoot.

The Probes have been amazing! Information without card disadvantage or mana disadvantage is huge. It builds your storm count for essentially free. I wish I could squeeze in a third. Not sure how though.

[j_rb]

The Probes have been amazing! Information without card disadvantage or mana disadvantage is huge. It builds your storm count for essentially free. I wish I could squeeze in a third. Not sure how though.

If you want to add 1 or 2 more probes most people will cut a tendrils/ buring wish/ and protection spell maindeck... I was running the 4 probe version for a while and all I can say is for the most part, you will hate running 4, and then there will be the random turn 1 kill chaining 3 probes together and you'll swear it's the best card in the deck. For the most part, 4 probes are bad as you lose the tendrils/1 wish maindeck and that will make you lose some matches. Bryants list is as far as I would go with probes as it gives you the information you need without muddling your deck. With TES consistency is key and you don't want to make your list so tight that you have to start cutting key spells like wishes and tendrils.

And to be honest bryants list is probably the best probe list I've seen. Most people don't cut the 2nd ad nauseam (or empty) for a probe, but that seems to be the most logical thing to cut since it makes your ad nauseams very, very consistent.

[Final Fortune]

Is there any reason you can't cut Lands for Probes, the deck use to run on 11 anyway?

[Machahiko]

Is there any reason you can't cut Lands for Probes, the deck use to run on 11 anyway?

I personally wouldn't cut down lands at all. RUG Delver is pretty much everywhere and beating them has been about drawing multiple lands, at least for me. We have a really low amount of lands and getting enough lands to stick (after stifles, wastelands) is problematic for most of the time. With careful planning of landbase during play I've been able to win more than 50% of my games against RUG though. I would say that all my losses have been due to low land count or just tastelessly good draws from the RUG player while I draw crap.

j_rb's reasoning behind amount of probes sounds really good to me and pretty much sums up my feelings about Gitaxian Probe.

I've also been thinking a lot about the 2nd Ad Nauseam, but in my metagame I feel like there's a really high count of decks with fow/other counters so I don't usually go for the turn 1/2 kill - unless I know for sure what they're playing. On the other hand, I miss having "lots of" turn 1/2 kills against the fair decks which I would have to kill asap. At the same time I enjoy how strong the only Ad Nauseam becomes when running only one.

[thefringthing]

Is there any reason you can't cut Lands for Probes, the deck use to run on 11 anyway?I like being able to keep on seven once every couple of months.

[j_rb]

Is there any reason you can't cut Lands for Probes, the deck use to run on 11 anyway?

Machahiko actually sums it up perfectly on why cutting on lands would be horrific.


I personally wouldn't cut down lands at all. RUG Delver is pretty much everywhere and beating them has been about drawing multiple lands, at least for me. We have a really low amount of lands and getting enough lands to stick (after stifles, wastelands) is problematic for most of the time. With careful planning of landbase during play I've been able to win more than 50% of my games against RUG though. I would say that all my losses have been due to low land count or just tastelessly good draws from the RUG player while I draw crap.


You need as many mana sources as you can get against RUG or they just lock you out of playing magic. With enough lands in your opener and enough planning the MU is actually not that bad for TES and since RUG is runnin all around making people not play magic, you have to have as many advantages against them as possible.

Cutting 1 Tendrils from the maindeck might be worth a 3rd probe. If you're comfortable enough with the deck and play carefully, having no win cons main can actually work. But sometimes I love having the in hand tendrils for the straight up counter my stuff and die to tendrils kill. They never see that one coming.

[AriLax]

MD Tendrils makes Dim Ret significantly better.

[j_rb]

MD Tendrils makes Dim Ret significantly better.

Hence why I wouldn't cut anything for a 3rd probe because it makes your deck worse.
Anything you cut for the 3rd probe will make the deck worse.

And that's also why I like the 2 ad nauseam list. Because it makes Dim ret better.

[apistat_commander]

I had a few questions that have come up after playtesting:

- If you are casting Ad Nauseam and can have any color floating, what color do you choose? Assume that you have cast either zero rituals or an equal number.

- How do you sideboard against decks that have both permanent and spell-based hate? I assume that I would bring in discard and bounce and still take out the chants, but I wasn't sure if a mix of the effects wouldn't be the best option.

- When combo'ing out do you lead with sorcery speed mana first (artifacts, Rite of Flame) and then follow with Dark Ritual to play around taxing counters?

[AriLax]

I had a few questions that have come up after playtesting:

- If you are casting Ad Nauseam and can have any color floating, what color do you choose? Assume that you have cast either zero rituals or an equal number.

- How do you sideboard against decks that have both permanent and spell-based hate? I assume that I would bring in discard and bounce and still take out the chants, but I wasn't sure if a mix of the effects wouldn't be the best option.

- When combo'ing out do you lead with sorcery speed mana first (artifacts, Rite of Flame) and then follow with Dark Ritual to play around taxing counters?

1. Usually Black. It's fairly marginal on B vs R, but if you hit the MD Tendrils having a B already makes things easier.

2. Depends on what kind. Usually I end up at 7 "normal" disruption and 2-3 bounce. If the card in question is Counterbalance, I just stick to killing them early.

3. If taxing counters are a concern, yes.

[SaberTooth]

if i'm on ad nauseam at low life, sometimes keep blue in the pool, because i can use cantrips instead of losing

[Dark Ritual]

If you can choose a mana to float post AdN it all depends on what is left in your deck i.e. how many rite of flames and dark ritual's there are left, as that is what you want to be casting post AdN unless you flip over enough artifact mana to go wish into tendrils or infernal into tendrils at which point you didn't need floating mana usually. Keeping a blue mana floating is pretty decent, but if you're relying on cantrips post nauseam to continue to combo out the deck can fizzle if you don't find what you need.

I'd always lead with rite of flame before dark ritual, getting dark rit dazed and then not being able to play rite of flame can be a nightmare while dark ritual in response to daze is one of my favorite plays in storm typically as the opponent is usually blown out by that dark ritual paying for the daze and still leaving BB and RR floating gives you a lot of options.

I wouldn't go with no win cons in the maindeck in TES, you're bound to lose games due to not having 4BBBR to go infernal -> wish -> tendrils. And I really like to raw storm people out sometimes it just gets them hard and they are amazed when you just play tendrils from hand for 10 due to them using countermagic. Almost always great to not have to rely on a storm engine, at least I think so.

[paeng4983]

if i'm on ad nauseam at low life, sometimes keep blue in the pool, because i can use cantrips instead of losing

I'll leave a B and pray hard that I'll get some dark rits/ LED/ tutors for me to go lethal TOA.

[Matt]

Haven't commented on here in a few... but I'll be at the SCG STL tourney this weekend. I'll probably be running Bryant's main list (-1 probe, +1 Ad Naus.) with a pretty basic side. Something like 3 CoV, 3 IoK, Thoughtseize, Deathmark, Shattering Spree, Grapeshot, EtW, PiF, DR, IGG, and of course, Tendrils of Agony: similar to Ari's side @ Detroit, minus the whole Bribery/Reanimate shenanigans. Hope to see some of you people there. :really:

-Matt

[Dark Ritual]

Unfortunately I'm not going to make SCG St. Louis this weekend. But no bribery shenanigans? J/k, I'm not a fan of bribery. If I expected a lot of storm/creatureless decks I might run telemin performance though as it is basically a 3UU wishable I win button against those decks. Reanimate is also far too conditional for my tastes, maybe if TES ran more chant effects as it stands it is highly conditional on them not having countermagic and if that's the case, why aren't we winning again?

[TBryant23]

Instead of the Thoughtseize in the Sideboard, why not play Cabal Therapy?

[Tammit67]

Instead of the Thoughtseize in the Sideboard, why not play Cabal Therapy?

If you are wishing for protection, you want to make damn sure you hit

[Bryant Cook]

Instead of the Thoughtseize in the Sideboard, why not play Cabal Therapy?

Trust me, I would rather play Cabal Therapy due to Japanese Foil Thoughtseizes being a bajillion dollars. But Cabal Therapy sucks. Seriously.

I don't own a pimp Thoughtseize (I only have a Russian) or Xantid Swarms (S-Chinese, but I'm looking into a different language foreign foil). It's driving me insane.

[TBryant23]

Well if you're playing the Gitaxian Probe version of the deck, it seems like Therapy would be better simply to Probe them, see something like brainstorm, 2x fow, take brainstorm, wish for therapy and get both fows. Maybe it's a Christmas land scenario, but it could happen pretty frequently I imagine.

[cuthbertthecat]

Trust me, I would rather play Cabal Therapy due to Japanese Foil Thoughtseizes being a bajillion dollars. But Cabal Therapy sucks. Seriously.

I don't own a pimp Thoughtseize (I only have a Russian) or Xantid Swarms (S-Chinese, but I'm looking into a different language foreign foil). It's driving me insane.

I feel your pain, I'm just missing a thoughtseize pimped from my deck too. For those wondering, foils have much more functionality than non-foils and you will win games because of them.

[Bryant Cook]

Well if you're playing the Gitaxian Probe version of the deck, it seems like Therapy would be better simply to Probe them, see something like brainstorm, 2x fow, take brainstorm, wish for therapy and get both fows. Maybe it's a Christmas land scenario, but it could happen pretty frequently I imagine.

Ah yes, with all two Probes. Highly likely.



I feel your pain, I'm just missing a thoughtseize pimped from my deck too. For those wondering, foils have much more functionality than non-foils and you will win games because of them.

Truth bomb.

[Zarania]

I dug through the thread and did not see an answer in the few pages that followed this question, so I apologize if it was answered later:

"Since people are trying out Modern and WOTC has said they’re going to be re-printing stuff for modern, what is the best manabase without the original duals?

Is it rainbow lands and darkslick shores? Darkslick Shores and fetches for basics to make the brainstorms and ponders best?* Or a direct port of the Bryant Cox Manabase with RAV duals?
*
I went with:
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vent
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass"

Would the combination of 2 Watery Graves+Steam Vents be best? Or would some combination of additional rainbow lands be best (despite the lack of synergy with brainstorm shuffling away extras)?

[Tombstalker]

Ive been down the rav duals road with other decks although I only ever used 1 max and it still hurt. I would recommend just printing some proxies selling those rav duals and saving for seas, even [heavily] played ones. I effing love my seas and you will too.

Edit- Bryant Im curious what you think of dread of night? I have read your most excellent primer and I realize IoK is more versatile, so perhaps its just that the application of dread is simply to narrow?
For me at my current TES play level thalia and friends are some of if not the most problematic forms of hate I have encountered and proactive discard doesnt always answer a topdecked hatebear where a 1cc continuous wrath would. Anyway just looking for some insight into possibly running 3 DoN plus a wishable removal/wincon (grapeshot) as opposed to IoK and deathmark.

[Bryant Cook]

Apparently it's tough to spell my name correctly even when it's everywhere in this thread and the post above...

Anyway, Inquisition being more versatile is the big reason that it gets the nod over Dread of Night. It could also be that while Dread of Night takes care of Thalia. It doesn't answer Green Sun Zenith for Gaddock Teeg. Not to mention Maverick leaves in Quasli Pridemage against us making Enchantment answers worse.

I'd have a longer post but I'm at work on my phone. I apologize for typos/awkward wording.

[SaberTooth]

i was thinking about DoN too... it's true that we can't kill teeg with ONLY 1 DoN (2 DoN can do it anyway) but we can at least bounce teeg easier than thalia. I think that the only problem with the card is what we need to remove from the sideboard.

[rxavage]

Storm Hard, the Bryant Cox Story...

[Tombstalker]

Anyway, Inquisition being more versatile is the big reason that it gets the nod over Dread of Night. It could also be that while Dread of Night takes care of Thalia. It doesn't answer Green Sun Zenith for Gaddock Teeg. Not to mention Maverick leaves in Quasli Pridemage against us making Enchantment answers worse.
Thats what I thought but the thought of 2 DoN at once is pretty tempting.

Also this made me Lolz

Storm Hard, the Bryant Cox Story...

[Matt]

I went 4-2-2 this weekend. I saw merfolk, RUG, maverick, boros, 2x stone-blade, and two mirror matches: both losses were to stone-blade... IoK and EtW really shined, though. IoK pretty much went in against everything, which is handy when you combo turn one on the play. Empty the Warrens single handedly beat fish-people, maverick, and one of the two mirror matches. But, it did fall short against stone-blade... I know, it's generally a bad idea to EtW against a deck with Batterskull, but it was turn two and he just played Stoneforge into Jitte. I could either BW into DR with no mana floating and no silence, or shit out 14 dudes. I chose the dudes. And of course, he had the Batterskull in hand... It was a fun tourney either way, but it would be nice to win something come next time...

Matthew

[Awaclus]

I went 4-2-2 this weekend. I saw merfolk, RUG, maverick, boros, 2x stone-blade, and two mirror matches: both losses were to stone-blade... IoK and EtW really shined, though. IoK pretty much went in against everything, which is handy when you combo turn one on the play. Empty the Warrens single handedly beat fish-people, maverick, and one of the two mirror matches. But, it did fall short against stone-blade... I know, it's generally a bad idea to EtW against a deck with Batterskull, but it was turn two and he just played Stoneforge into Jitte. I could either BW into DR with no mana floating and no silence, or shit out 14 dudes. I chose the dudes. And of course, he had the Batterskull in hand... It was a fun tourney either way, but it would be nice to win something come next time...

Matthew
Most of the time, a Stoneforge Mystic searching for a Jitte means that he already has the Batterskull in hand, unless you're playing Elves or something.

[metalhead]

Top 32d Starcity St.Louis with TES.

Report. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24251-Top-32-With-TES.

[Matt]

I'm contemplating cutting Pif or Grapeshot for the third IoK... After seeing merfolk, I'm back on board with Bryant's side. But, IoK was such an all-star; I can't get myself to just run two copies. It goes in against fish-people, stoneforge, maverick, and pretty much everything else. I haven't used PiF in centuries and I've literally played Grapeshot once, where EtW could have been used anyways. PiF is nifty when you go all in and get blown out. BW-PiF-do it all again (or just flashback). So I think I'm leaning towards cutting Grapeshot...

[Bryant Cook]

I'm contemplating cutting Pif or Grapeshot for the third IoK... After seeing merfolk, I'm back on board with Bryant's side. But, IoK was such an all-star; I can't get myself to just run two copies. It goes in against fish-people, stoneforge, maverick, and pretty much everything else. I haven't used PiF in centuries and I've literally played Grapeshot once, where EtW could have been used anyways. PiF is nifty when you go all in and get blown out. BW-PiF-do it all again (or just flashback). So I think I'm leaning towards cutting Grapeshot...

Why do you need an IoK with the Thoughtseize in the sideboard? Just board the Thoughtseize as you would the rest of the Inquisitions. Not to mention, why does IoK matter against Merfolk? I would be bringing in the two Xantids.

[Dark Ritual]

Why do you need an IoK with the Thoughtseize in the sideboard? Just board the Thoughtseize as you would the rest of the Inquisitions. Not to mention, why does IoK matter against Merfolk? I would be bringing in the two Xantids.

Yeah, definitely concur with this statement. Xantid swarm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Merfolk. It's not even funny, I remember when merfolk was the best deck xantid swarm was my best friend. They literally cannot beat a resolved xantid, it's literally GG's against them when you can resolve xantid.

IoK doesn't seem to be what I want to be doing against merfolk. Taking creatures and such usually doesn't matter against them, as they pack a lot of threats. It only matters if they kept a threat light hand, at which point we have all day against them to set up.

[cuthbertthecat]

I'm contemplating cutting Pif or Grapeshot for the third IoK... After seeing merfolk, I'm back on board with Bryant's side. But, IoK was such an all-star; I can't get myself to just run two copies. It goes in against fish-people, stoneforge, maverick, and pretty much everything else. I haven't used PiF in centuries and I've literally played Grapeshot once, where EtW could have been used anyways. PiF is nifty when you go all in and get blown out. BW-PiF-do it all again (or just flashback). So I think I'm leaning towards cutting Grapeshot...

Also, the best way to improve the merfolk matchup is to test the shit out of it. Honestly, it's pretty easy once you figure out that they have only 8 cards that matter if you're patient in wasteland and force of will. They usually can't clock you to the point that their soft permission matters. That's also why IOK isn't great against them, it doesn't grab either waste or force.

Grapeshot is crucial for this matchup however; in my experience, most merfolk players are douchebags and storm 60 is entirely necessary.

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, definitely concur with this statement. Xantid swarm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Merfolk. It's not even funny, I remember when merfolk was the best deck xantid swarm was my best friend. They literally cannot beat a resolved xantid, it's literally GG's against them when you can resolve xantid.

IoK doesn't seem to be what I want to be doing against merfolk. Taking creatures and such usually doesn't matter against them, as they pack a lot of threats. It only matters if they kept a threat light hand, at which point we have all day against them to set up.

If you aren't using IoK to discard Hate Bears and you're looking for a SB card between IoK and Xantid Swarm that's pretty good vs Merfolk but not completely dead vs RUG I think you're better off just SBing more Orim's Chant/Silence in the board. Xantid Swarm is good vs. Merfolk but I don't think it's as awesome as you make it out to be, you can still run into 3xDismember.

[adrock]

If you aren't using IoK to discard Hate Bears and you're looking for a SB card between IoK and Xantid Swarm that's pretty good vs Merfolk but not completely dead vs RUG I think you're better off just SBing more Orim's Chant/Silence in the board. Xantid Swarm is good vs. Merfolk but I don't think it's as awesome as you make it out to be, you can still run into 3xDismember.

In my experience, Merfolk players always side out their removal game 2 vs TES.

[Vandalize]

If you aren't using IoK to discard Hate Bears and you're looking for a SB card between IoK and Xantid Swarm that's pretty good vs Merfolk but not completely dead vs RUG I think you're better off just SBing more Orim's Chant/Silence in the board. Xantid Swarm is good vs. Merfolk but I don't think it's as awesome as you make it out to be, you can still run into 3xDismember.

If they Dismember your Xantid Swarm, you have to build up 2 less storm.

[thefringthing]

Got utterly thrashed by Merfolk today. Looks like I'm going to have to re-buy those Xantid Swarms after all. No idea why I sold them in the first place.

[Dark Ritual]

I personally don't sell storm staples, as having to re acquire them later is exceptionally annoying. Also don't see the point in selling xantid warm, as the card is worth 2 dollars so if I sold a playset I'd be lucky to get $8 for my playset. But back to the topic at hand.

@Final Fortune: How many merfolk decks run dismember postboard against TES? And for that matter, what merfolk decks even maindeck dismember anymore? I haven't seen dismember in merfolk post M13 at all. Even before it started to disappear from lists. Xantid swarm is the best card against merfolk, hands down. Nothing is better than swarm. Also, if they dismember swarm on YOUR turn, you can very easily just win via wishing for tendrils after dumping your hand as dismember is +3 storm if used on our turn. Even if it isn't used on our turn, permanent storm count of 2 is quite good.

Definitely concur with Cuthbert about the grapeshot v. merfolk.

Also of note, the empty plan is great against merfolk. They can't answer 10 goblins on turn 1 ever.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

It's awesome that people are finally on the probe plan. That card has been hoss.

My maindeck is similar to Bryants, but I've cut the 4th burning wish. The card is miserable in multiples, and I feel 3 is enough when you already run 4 tutors and 10 cantrips. Also, the first wish has been the first card I board out in almost every matchup.

I finally tested the maverick matchup extensively, and it's not too pretty preboard. My plan as of now is:

-2 Silence
-3 Duress

+3 Deathmark
+2 Chain of vapor

I tried IoK and it was horrible. Having to choose between GSZ, Thalia, and/or cannonist was the worst feeling. This plan basically allows me to completely ignore maverick until they present a threat. I found that I'd rather further my game plan with a turn 1 cantrip rather than IoK on turn 1. This would lead to awkward openings with both a cantrip and an IoK.

Also, until Stax realistically becomes more than 0.000000001% of the metagame, I refuse to play echoing truth.

[Final Fortune]

I personally don't sell storm staples, as having to re acquire them later is exceptionally annoying. Also don't see the point in selling xantid warm, as the card is worth 2 dollars so if I sold a playset I'd be lucky to get $8 for my playset. But back to the topic at hand.

@Final Fortune: How many merfolk decks run dismember postboard against TES? And for that matter, what merfolk decks even maindeck dismember anymore? I haven't seen dismember in merfolk post M13 at all. Even before it started to disappear from lists. Xantid swarm is the best card against merfolk, hands down. Nothing is better than swarm. Also, if they dismember swarm on YOUR turn, you can very easily just win via wishing for tendrils after dumping your hand as dismember is +3 storm if used on our turn. Even if it isn't used on our turn, permanent storm count of 2 is quite good.

Definitely concur with Cuthbert about the grapeshot v. merfolk.

Also of note, the empty plan is great against merfolk. They can't answer 10 goblins on turn 1 ever.

I suppose it's a metagame consideration, but I see Dismember in Merfolk quite often and the players tend to keep Dismember in post-board to see whether or not you SB Xantid Swarm, the same with STP in BANT.

Edit: Even if they don't keep Dismember in the MD for game 2, there's always the option to bring them back in for game 3.

Sure 4 Damage is a boon if we're holding Burning Wish and capable of storming out by hand, but you've still turned that dead card into a respective counter spell vs your disruption and you still have to resolve Tendrils thru' whatever actual counter spells they're holding.

I'm not saying Xantid Swarm is a bad card, it obviuosly shines in the Reanimator, Sneak/Show and Merfolk match ups, but it's dead vs. RUG where Silence/Orim's Chants aren't and you only have so much SB space. I think Chant effects are pretty solid vs. Merfolk too, and there aren't any Tier 1 match ups vs. Islands I can't SB them in for.

[maritlage]

I just went 2-2 at my shops weekly legacy tournament. I'm running bryant's older list which runs the inquistions of kozileck and a second ad nauseam. I cant remember alot of it because I had been up for 24 hours so the 1 round loss to Sneak show was due to fatigue. My only other loss was to Stax that got the recurring Wasteland lock with crucible of worlds which is really annoying to say the least. My 2 wins were against Maverick where I went 2-1 and Stiflenaught going 2-0 only because the player misplayed a force of will on my inquisition of kozileck isntead of waiting for me to burning wish my tendrils. I wish i could give more details but as I said earlier I was working on no sleep and when i got home i promptly passed out but I do remember not top4ing the event.

[KevinTrudeau]

One surefire way to fit in Xantid Swarms without cutting any (and I do mean any) storm engines or utility Wish targets would be to run Thoughtseizes in the maindeck as the targeted discard spell of choice; seems like it would sting vs. Canadian Thresh, but in having to deal with an uptick of Force of Will combo decks due to Elton Brand in addition to Maverick and blue decks not budging an inch at all in terms of tier one status, fitting in Swarm (and therefore potentially Thoughtseize in the maindeck) might be correct in that it's the only way to ensure we have all of our bases covered. There are way, way too many potential decklist (sideboard in particular) permutations floating around in my head right now to list them all (and that's before throwing in the sinking feeling that Counterbalance might be coming back and the fact that there's absolutely no possible way to fit in Pyroblasts or even one Wipe Away at this point without sacrificing (sacrificing might be a bit hyperbolic considering we can potentially have seven discard spells postboard with a multitude of certain configurations I'm thinking of, but still) one of the aforementioned matchups), but here's the very first one that came to mind, just so you can kind of get a feel for what I'm thinking of:

4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn (still have no idea why people are playing a Mire here)
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Thoughtseize
2 Orim's Chant
2 Silence

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozliek

So yeah, I might just be wasting a bunch of time in testing out Thoughtseize in the maindeck, but in the few games I've played so far, it hasn't actually been that bad. So yeah, Thoughtseize in the maindeck. Try it out. Potentially makes the Maverick matchup that much better game one. In addition to that bit about Counterbalance above, I still haven't tried and/or thought up decklists+configurations with Gitaxian Probe in mind, but I'm still pretty certain in theory that playing an actual purpose-serving card over it is just going to be better.

EDIT: Didn't realize that this is Alex's exact board (minus Thoughtseize for Duress in the board, although making it so by flip-flopping the SB Duress for a Thoughtseize is indeed one of the permutations I've had in mind) on page 25. Swear I didn't bite it. Also, holy fuck, Twins bullpen just gave up nine runs.

[Bryant Cook]

I run the Mire because it's Japanese foil and hot as shit.

I don't like this list at all, it sacrifices a lot of life in order to add one more Xantid Swarm to the sideboard. Have you tested Thoughtseize against RUG Delver? It sucks. You could add the third Xantid to my sideboard by cutting the Deathmark that your list isn't playing without giving up hope against aggressive Delver decks.

You're still on the 2/2 Chant/Silence split?

You're still on two Ad Nauseam?

[Deviruchi]

2 Scalding Tarn (still have no idea why people are playing a Mire here)

There is also an element of bluff. You can pretend to play for example R/B Goblins. This trick was also popular some seasons ago in Canadian Threshold, using Wooded Foothills to bluff Zoo/Goblins/RG Beats. I have mindtricked this way my opponents at least 5 times while playing TES. It doesn't hurt us but can help so why not?

Mire is also cheaper which can be a factor for some players.

[KevinTrudeau]

I run the Mire because it's Japanese foil and hot as shit.

Pending it's an Onslaught original with the pre-8th edition border, a valid reason.


There is also an element of bluff. You can pretend to play for example R/B Goblins. This trick was also popular some seasons ago in Canadian Threshold, using Wooded Foothills to bluff Zoo/Goblins/RG Beats. I have mindtricked this way my opponents at least 5 times while playing TES. It doesn't hurt us but can help so why not?

The element of bluffs and tells is the entire reason why I wouldn't run Mire and have chosen to run the far more ubiquitous Tarn. Mire is no Verdant Catacombs (to pose as like a Junk deck) in Reanimator; people are either going to put you on Aggro Loam or TES once they see it. I don't know, maybe I'm giving my opponents too much credit in their deductive skills, but I just can't foresee them thinking, "Oh, Bloodstained Mire, probably a R/B deck, I'm gonna tap out and not leave up Spell Pierce/Lightning Bolt."


I don't like this list at all, it sacrifices a lot of life in order to add one more Xantid Swarm to the sideboard. Have you tested Thoughtseize against RUG Delver? It sucks. You could add the third Xantid to my sideboard by cutting the Deathmark that your list isn't playing without giving up hope against aggressive Delver decks.

It's sacrificing life so that it can not have "dead" cards (Chants aren't necessarily a blank, still haven't come to the conclusion over whether or not they're okay to leave in when on the play or draw postboard, but we'll just call them that for now; if they aren't, then Thoughtseize probably wouldn't be necessary) postboard vs. Maverick actually, in addition to having a better game one. Thoughtseize might be shitty, that post yesterday was more of a brainstorming exercise to find a way to have solid board plans against the field without cutting any of the eight "fundamental" Wish targets than anything really, but I could also foresee it being quite good. But yeah, if I come to the conclusion that Chants are actually still decent against them, we could actually honestly bump Swarm up to a four-of in the board and still have plenty of room for Maverick (thus reverting back to Duress as the maindeck 3/4-of targeted discard spell); this is, of course, assuming Swarm is a desired sideboard card over something else (going back to that fear that Counterbalance could be coming back en masse).

F'rinstance, if Chants are okay vs. Maverick, this could be the SB (again, one of a plethora, though I'm kind of starting to fundamentally like boarding in cards to deal with permanents as opposed to leaving them in as Wish targets; if I come to a conclusion on that, it would cut down a lot of the total number of possible sideboard permutations):
8 fundamental Wish targets (Thoughtseize as the discard spell, since we're playing 4 Duress main; Grapeshot the sole disruption for permanent-based hate)
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor/Deathmark/Inquisition of Kozilek
4 free slots (Xantid Swarm, IoK, Pyroblast, Wipe Away, etc.)

The board plan vs. Maverick being -4 Duress for +1 Thoughtseize, +2 Echoing Truth +1 Chain of Vapor/Deathmark/Inquisition of Kozilek. It could even be correct to board in Grapeshot, leaving open another potential SB slot, as one wouldn't necessarily need to even play Deathmark at that point. It might also be correct to forgo hand disruption, leave in the Cov/DM slot, and board in Grapeshot over Thoughtseize.


You're still on the 2/2 Chant/Silence split?

Pretty certain it's correct.


You're still on two Ad Nauseam?

Pretty certain it's correct.

[joemauer]

I have been enjoying the one Ad Nauseam. I don't think I would ever go back to two.

What about the 2/2 Orim's/Silence split? Has anyone done any testing with this lately?

Surgical Extraction and Meddling Mages are such corner cases that I don't think these should be reasons to run or not run a split. There are usually much better targets for aforementioned cards rather than hit our silences.

So I believe it boils down to fighting Leyline of Sanctity & Misdirection versus fighting a quick creature attack.
The only deck that runs Leyline of Sanctity and/or Misdirection is Sneak and Show.
It is only really good to have 4x silences versus one deck, but it does help a lot in this match up.

The only creature decks that put pressure on us quick enough is maybe goblins or affinity. Orim's Chant can timewalk an aggro deck to get better use of an Ad Nauseam as well.

But like I initially asked, has anyone done any real testing with both? If so what conclusions have you made?

[TerribleTim68]

...2 Scalding Tarn (still have no idea why people are playing a Mire here)...

Well, my answer is a lot more basic than that. I don't own any Zendicar fetches at all, but I own all of the Onslaught fetches. So I make do with what I own. :tongue:

[Matt]

What about the 2/2 Orim's/Silence split? Has anyone done any testing with this lately?

I played four Silence at StarCity St.Louis. Never saw a single Meddling Mage or Surgical Extraction. I did see Leyline of Sanctity, twice. Silence definitely shined in that matchup.

On a different note, I saw three decks that could go MoM-Thalia-win top @ the Las Vegas Open. *cough*Infest*cough*

Just some thoughts,
Matt

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant
Question:

Regarding the Strategies to Side:

Why is better to side out the Ponder instead the Gitaxian.
Overall Gitaxian seems weaker.
and because of extirpate effects I don't think it worths.

Thanks

[Bryant Cook]

Pending it's an Onslaught original with the pre-8th edition border, a valid reason.
Japanese Foil Bloodstained Mire only comes that way ;)


The element of bluffs and tells is the entire reason why I wouldn't run Mire and have chosen to run the far more ubiquitous Tarn. Mire is no Verdant Catacombs (to pose as like a Junk deck) in Reanimator; people are either going to put you on Aggro Loam or TES once they see it. I don't know, maybe I'm giving my opponents too much credit in their deductive skills, but I just can't foresee them thinking, "Oh, Bloodstained Mire, probably a R/B deck, I'm gonna tap out and not leave up Spell Pierce/Lightning Bolt."

I don't think Mire really screams combo. If anything it says burn, discard, or some sort of mid-range deck to me. But if you're really on the mind-fuck with your fetches plan, I'd suggest playing a full playset of Flooded Strands. I just don't give a shit, how often is your opponent going to make snap judgements off of fetchlands? You were probably going to beat those kinds of players anyway.


It's sacrificing life so that it can not have "dead" cards (Chants aren't necessarily a blank, still haven't come to the conclusion over whether or not they're okay to leave in when on the play or draw postboard, but we'll just call them that for now; if they aren't, then Thoughtseize probably wouldn't be necessary) postboard vs. Maverick actually, in addition to having a better game one. Thoughtseize might be shitty, that post yesterday was more of a brainstorming exercise to find a way to have solid board plans against the field without cutting any of the eight "fundamental" Wish targets than anything really, but I could also foresee it being quite good. But yeah, if I come to the conclusion that Chants are actually still decent against them, we could actually honestly bump Swarm up to a four-of in the board and still have plenty of room for Maverick (thus reverting back to Duress as the maindeck 3/4-of targeted discard spell); this is, of course, assuming Swarm is a desired sideboard card over something else (going back to that fear that Counterbalance could be coming back en masse).

I was talking about Thoughtseize vs. RUG Delver not Maverick. Obviously it's better in the Maverick match-up, but our Maverick match-up isn't really bad. In fact, I think it's pretty damn good after sideboard. Silence is fine game one against Maverick, but after sideboard I board out the Duress then as many Silences that I can. I wouldn't want four Xantid, it's really only good in match-ups with little to no removal in their deck. See: Reanimator, Sneak Show, and Merfolk. That's about it. Counterbalance isn't coming back in mass any time soon, it's played in some UW Miracles lists and that's about it.


F'rinstance, if Chants are okay vs. Maverick, this could be the SB (again, one of a plethora, though I'm kind of starting to fundamentally like boarding in cards to deal with permanents as opposed to leaving them in as Wish targets; if I come to a conclusion on that, it would cut down a lot of the total number of possible sideboard permutations):
8 fundamental Wish targets (Thoughtseize as the discard spell, since we're playing 4 Duress main; Grapeshot the sole disruption for permanent-based hate)
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor/Deathmark/Inquisition of Kozilek
4 free slots (Xantid Swarm, IoK, Pyroblast, Wipe Away, etc.)

2 Xantid Swarm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Deathmark
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames

The only slot here I'd be willing to cut is the Deathmark for another Inquisition.


The board plan vs. Maverick being -4 Duress for +1 Thoughtseize, +2 Echoing Truth +1 Chain of Vapor/Deathmark/Inquisition of Kozilek. It could even be correct to board in Grapeshot, leaving open another potential SB slot, as one wouldn't necessarily need to even play Deathmark at that point. It might also be correct to forgo hand disruption, leave in the Cov/DM slot, and board in Grapeshot over Thoughtseize.

Sideboarding (With Mind Break Trap)
+2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Deathmark
+2 Echoing Truth
-4 Silence
-2 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboarding (Without Mind Break Trap)
+2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Deathmark
+2 Echoing Truth
-4 Silence
-2 Duress


Pretty certain it's correct.

It's not.


Pretty certain it's correct.

It's not.


@Bryant
Question:

Regarding the Strategies to Side:

Why is better to side out the Ponder instead the Gitaxian.
Overall Gitaxian seems weaker.
and because of extirpate effects I don't think it worths.

Thanks

I haven't gotten around to updating that, it's probably better to side out Probes.

EDIT: Did a quick update at work, I apologize if anything is wrong.
EDIT 2: Updated a bit more carefully and organized the decks generically by type.

Interview with the guy who top 8'd SCG: St. Louis: (Probably not worth putting in the opening post)
http://blip.tv/scglive/stl-lgc-interview-grant-wilkinson-6261529

[KevinTrudeau]

I have been enjoying the one Ad Nauseam. I don't think I would ever go back to two.

What about the 2/2 Orim's/Silence split? Has anyone done any testing with this lately?

Surgical Extraction and Meddling Mages are such corner cases that I don't think these should be reasons to run or not run a split. There are usually much better targets for aforementioned cards rather than hit our silences.

So I believe it boils down to fighting Leyline of Sanctity & Misdirection versus fighting a quick creature attack.
The only deck that runs Leyline of Sanctity and/or Misdirection is Sneak and Show.
It is only really good to have 4x silences versus one deck, but it does help a lot in this match up.

The only creature decks that put pressure on us quick enough is maybe goblins or affinity. Orim's Chant can timewalk an aggro deck to get better use of an Ad Nauseam as well.

But like I initially asked, has anyone done any real testing with both? If so what conclusions have you made?

As someone who's done testing with both, I still prefer the 2/2 split (although 3/2 in favor of Silence is probably correct if one should wish to run five Chants now), as you will often times need the benefits that either offers; needs to be 2/2 and not 3/1 because of Infernal Tutor. A very common line versus Dredge is to Diminishing Returns on turn two with the intention of Chantwalking the following turns into the win, and you don't want to lose life on one of those turns because of any unfortunate Zombie tokens already in play pre-DR; this is in addition to the aggro decks you brought up, plus corner-case stuff like preventing Annihilator triggers. You can basically throw out the Meddling Mage scenario (and, even though you yourself, the best pure hitter in all of baseball, didn't bring it up, the Cabal Therapy scenario in Dredge as well), as Mage will never usually name a white one-mana instant (it will usually be incorrectly naming Tendrils; it should in general be naming Lion's Eye Diamond unless the opponent has more information).

@Terrible Tim— there's a public access show host, based in Staten Island if I'm not mistaken, that bears your Source handle; are you that guy?

@Bryant— I feel like there's a bit of miscommunication going on concerning why I brought up Thoughtseize; we both realize that losing two life vs. Canadian Thresh is super shitty, but it was a way to have bona-fide hate v. Maverick, blue decks, and Fow-based combo decks without cutting any Wish targets/having any wasted post-board slots in the starting 60, as your config does v. Maverick. If I can get off of work early, there's a weekly tourney tonight that I can attend in preparation for a bigger one this Sunday; since it's smaller scale, I might try out the potentially shitty Thoughtseize config. Probably will report back on how it does if I can.

Also, I'd like to clarify/amend what I said previously. Running just one Ad Nauseam might indeed be correct, but it's replacement shouldn't be a card that seems like it does absolutely nothing, such as Gitaxian Probe; it could be a 14th land, a 9th disruption spell (that could potentially free up a precious sideboard slot), etc.

[TerribleTim68]

...@Terrible Tim— there's a public access show host, based in Staten Island if I'm not mistaken, that bears your Source handle; are you that guy?...

No, that's not me. I live in the beautiful, cloud covered, misty, rain soaked Pacific Northwest (not by choice). My "handle" comes from my racing. I race THIS (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff213/TerribleTim68/Limited/IMG_2254.jpg) at our local short track, Evergreen Speedway (http://www.evergreenspeedway.com) and my nickname at the track is "Terrible Tim". My car number is "68". Thus the "TerribleTim68". :cool: I just use the same handle on every message board I visit.

[Bryant Cook]

Also, I'd like to clarify/amend what I said previously. Running just one Ad Nauseam might indeed be correct, but it's replacement shouldn't be a card that seems like it does absolutely nothing, such as Gitaxian Probe; it could be a 14th land, a 9th disruption spell (that could potentially free up a precious sideboard slot), etc.

What I enjoy about Probe is that it's .5 of a protection spell. It doesn't actually protect but it does it's job well enough that you know to not run your head into a wall. The other .5 is a cantrip against non-blue decks. Opening hands full of protection against Maverick or Goblins can just suck.

I'm not saying that making the two Probes into Inquisitions or Thoughtseizes would be bad, but it would hurt in non-blue match-ups with opening hands full of non-relevant cards. What would go in these new sideboard slots? More protection?

I could see something like:

The EPIC Storm
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Silence
3 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Xantid Swarm
2 Deathmark
2 Echoing Truth
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames

This is what I would be on with nine main deck protection spells. But don't you think that's a lot of protection between the main deck and sideboard? How do you sideboard against decks where protection is bad? You literally cannot sideboard out Silences or Duress. What're you going to bring in? More protection?

I think I'll stick with Probe (List on the opening post).

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant:

The 2 probes List was the List I finally reach also,
- I didn't want to play 2 A.N (Initial idea)
- 2 Probes act as Parity (Concept well known in Programming)
Now and looking at the GP Ghent and to the List, I think I'd like to move to the No Chant Effect List.

So I'd like your suggestion:
The changes I'm thinking of are:
- 4 Silence = + 4 Therapy
- 1 C.Mox = + 1 Probe

Maybe let in 4 Duress and 3 Therapy instead.
I'd really like to play 4 Probe so, maybe taking out a Land could work.
Long time ago TES worked with 11 lands, maybe go back to 12 and 4 probes...
Still thinking next I'll test.

For sure, I would not play 1 C.Mox only.
The 3 B.Wish number I think is an error, at elast in the TES archetype.

Please let me know your ideas or tests if you made.

If anyone has any idea related please let me know.
Thanks
Bests regards.

Another point, related to the suggestion,
the move I'd suggest will be:
-1 Inquisition = + 1 Probe
OR
-1 Inquisition = +1 A.N. (you'll loose sometime becuase of having the 2nd A.N. but once occured the next time it will tkae long time untile it happens again...)

/ ******Edit Start ****;

Currently TES With Therapies Testing List:


With these ideas I'll post my Currently TES with Therapies Testing List:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [JGC] Flooded Strand
2 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [U] Underground Sea

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [7E] Duress
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [PD3] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [ISD] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm

Points:
- I really didnt miss the 13th land.
- A.Nauseam is still strong
- Therapy is a great card, Althouth I recognize is extremely powerfull in the appropiate hands.
- Seems that when playing 4 Probes, the cards that seem to be repeated more are the lands and the Moxen, Have I been understood with this? I mean, Probes simply thick the deck and Moxen is the card that you don't want to see more than 1 and with all these cantrips you re probable to see them more often that not, and the same for lands, for the rest of cards, I think the numbers seem to be ok.
- I'm not sure if moving to 11 lands 4 moxen.

/ ****** Edit End ****** ;

[KevinTrudeau]

I don't think cutting Chants would be a good idea right now; as long as the top deck continues to run Stifle and sometimes Spell Snare, Dredge exists, Sensei's Divining Top exists (big one), Brainstorm exists, Diminishing Returns continues to be run as a Wish target, Ill-Gotten Gains continues to be run as a Wish target, Counterbalance decks aren't too heavily played, etc., I don't think it's worth it. It would certainly be correct in certain abstract metagames, and Chants probably aren't at their peak metagame value right now (I'm back to a 4/4 Chant/discard split), but they're still really, really good, and in a lot of scenarios, are the best disruption spell. Also, I'd for certain run Thoughtseize and/or IoK before I'd run Cabal Therapy, though I don't actually have any concrete testing to back that up. But hey, I could be wrong; Therapy has insane potential, and I definitely look forward to any results from testing.

What I do have in terms of concrete testing to back something up is that I am now 100% confident that something should always be in the sideboard to deal with hatebears as opposed to having more of a "sideboard" with the intent of conserving Burning Wish as a strict business spell instead of a dual business spell/answer to storm trumps (i.e., boarding in Grapeshot with the intent of increasing the probability of naturally drawing a bounce/removal spell while ensuring Burning Wishes don't "go to waste"). Going to probably be running Silent Departure again in the board (in tandem with Grapeshot, although one could indeed cut G'Shot for something like Chain of Vapor, or even the super-sweet Slaughter Pact to actually board in; if one is very paranoid about Mother of Runes, board in the Departure and leave in Infest/Virtue's Ruin/Massacre (yes, I know it doesn't work with Teeg out, but one could argue that Infest/Ruin doesn't work with Thalia out) as the Grapeshot slot in the board) for tomorrow's tournament with the intent of leaving it in at all times. I did manage to get off work yesterday and did play the Thoughtseize variant; I really liked it actually, though I only really played in matchups where it was beneficial (Maverick, MUD) and never ran into Canadian Threshold, which is the chief reason one would be dissuaded from running it.

@Bryant- that is actually a really good point about disruption-heavy hands vs. decks like Goblins, but I still don't think it should actually take up the slot of a precious discard spell; I'd much rather cut a Chrome Mox over a Duress/Thoughtseize for a second Probe. Also, while I think you're completely right that a ninth disruption spell over a second Ad Nauseam in a non-Probe list would be too much, what of the first option I listed, a fourteenth land? I can't see that being bad; I can see it being slightly suboptimal, but not bad. But yeah, you've convinced me to not completely dismiss Probe. I won't be running it tomorrow because I don't have enough time to test with it beforehand, but I'll for sure test it after.

[Vacrix]

This is what I would be on with nine main deck protection spells. But don't you think that's a lot of protection between the main deck and sideboard? How do you sideboard against decks where protection is bad? You literally cannot sideboard out Silences or Duress. What're you going to bring in? More protection?
If you don't want to bring in more protection, perhaps Carpet of Flowers. It forces them to get careful with their mana base or else you get to play around Spell Pierce and Daze for free. If they are bad or cocky enough to try to ignore it (ie. not sandbag you on Islands), you can go for protection + double business all in the same turn after having extra mana each turn to sculpt with cantrips, play protection, Burning Wish for business or hate removal, etc. If they are careful with their mana base they can't do as much with their turn, ie. cantrip + have mana for Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm. Seems like it could be better than Xantid Swarm in a Merfolk deficient metagame. Also, Delver is heavily played so if they can flip it early, they can block it if they are holding countermagic without a removal spell.

Also, Carpet of Flowers is particularly good when you run into a lot of Wastelands/Stifle and aren't sitting on enough perpetual resources. At the worst, it adds like 0-1 mana per turn if they sit on their fetches or it gets Forced countered because the opponent is holding duals/islands instead of fetchlands. At the best, its still a ritual when you are going off if you pass to second mainphase to add mana to your mana pool and can single handily cast Ad Nauseam along with whatever other perps you are sitting on. Also, control decks can't really sit on their fetchlands against TES like they can vs. PSI because then they can't Brainstorm away what you might make them discard with Iok/Thoughtseize as well as play Ponder and creatures to put a solid clock on you. Also, you can force them to crack fetchlands by playing an early Chant and then use the extra mana each turn to play cantrips and protection each turn that you wouldn't be able to play otherwise. An activate Carpet color fixes for you and allows you to hold on to your Gemstone mines while also being a perpetual mana source thats immune to Wasteland or even a Loam/Crucible Wastelock in mid to late game.


The only disadvantage of adding this to the board besides those mentioned is that its better in the mid to long game against slower control decks rather than Tempo decks which function on fewer land. In that sense, Xantid Swarm might be better but its still a gamble. RUG and UR both play 8+ Burn spells maindeck consistently so it should be expect that it will get killed in the current metagame. I don't think TES has as much trouble with the slower control decks since they have almost no clock so perhaps this isn't the best addition. In general, though, Carpet can draw out countermagic just as easily as a discard spell or chant effect would with the additional application of adding mana as a perpetual resource or a ritual (using it as a ritual by passing to second mainphase also means its not dead once you are going off with Ad Nauseam). Being a 1cc spell that can draw out countermagic with additional applications seems good if you want to board something in that won't overload your hand with protection spells. Then again, Xantid Swarm dodges Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm, being a creature.


EDIT:
Xantid Swarm is better against Show and Tell and Reanimator than Carpet since you are hard pressed to go off before they do. Given their DTB presence, Xantid Swarm might be better after all. Then again, do you really want to board in Xantid Swarm against these decks? They play minimal countermagic and you don't really want to dilute TES's speed against such fast combo/control decks.

[Bahamuth]

Gitaxian Probe is insane. I can't belive you guys still aren't running 4 of them. I piloted a list similar to Pelikanudo's to day 2 at Ghent (I was still running Chants, but that was a mistake). A friend of mine used the same list to Top 32 Amsterdam last year.

Also, why are you running a mainboard Tendrils? We've cut that a long time ago for an Emtpy the Warrens, and I can't remember a single game where I needed it. It almost never happens that you can't win on either the mainboard EtW or the sideboard ToA.

[JamieW89]

Gitaxian Probe is insane. I can't belive you guys still aren't running 4 of them. I piloted a list similar to Pelikanudo's to day 2 at Ghent (I was still running Chants, but that was a mistake). A friend of mine used the same list to Top 32 Amsterdam last year.

Also, why are you running a mainboard Tendrils? We've cut that a long time ago for an Emtpy the Warrens, and I can't remember a single game where I needed it. It almost never happens that you can't win on either the mainboard EtW or the sideboard ToA.

I ran a list which was almost identical to yours today and it was pretty insane. I only dropped game-1 on the draw against stax with t1 chalice@1, t2 sphere, t3 chalice@2.

[Pelikanudo]

@Topo Bahamut.
Hi StormBoarder, long time I don't post there. busy and too much work, I think I made a top 8 with DDFT in a 80 torunament, I got what a wanted and left DDFT, now I'm excited with miracles and so on, althout Bryant TES Design still is my favourite, sometimes you can even guess the cards youre going to draw...
I absolutly agree, Tendrils probably was the card I really want to cut, maybe for the 4th mox or the 13th land.
Anyway, at least in TES I think Tendrils is key as maindeck, it can adds speedy and the Grapeshot - Tendrils play is sometimes key, also in conjuntion with D.Returns , tendrils in M.D gets bigger the possibility of winning , the same is applicable for A.N. ,IGG and PiF engines. I really find much more reasons to play thatn to not to play it, at least in TES design.
Which is your current mana configuration, if you could let me know the differences regarding my list?

@Bryant:
any suggestion related the therapy-4gitaxian - TES version?

@About Xantid:
is key ritgh now, if in your meta there is Reanimator or/and Sneak, 2 as a number at least is a must.

@Emidlin:
Do you have any current TES list with Therapys and 4Gitaxian or like, please if you could share your thinkings.

I'm really interested about the list which won the GP.

[joemauer]

That was ANT that won the GP. Apparently the only differences between ANT and TES are Chrome Moxes versus land and three colors versus five colors. Since TES is five colors it might as well play chant effects, right?

[Pelikanudo]

That was ANT that won the GP. Apparently the only differences between ANT and TES are Chrome Moxes versus land and three colors versus five colors. Since TES is five colors it might as well play chant effects, right?

No, you're not,
Cabal Ritual over Rite of Flame is also a great difference.

[Final Fortune]

Is anybody else having problems supporting their Xantid Swarms (or other off color disruption spells) out of the SB with only 6 gold lands? When I was playing with extra discard and bounce in the board I never had any issues resolving my spells, but after playing vs Wasteland.dec I've been routinely getting color screwed and forced to hold onto my extra off color disruption spells when I could go off otherwise.

Anybody else thinking going back to 4 City of Brass is the right call now that we're packing a more diversified color distribution?

[Bahamuth]

Mainboard:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy


2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize/Therapy
1 Diminishing Returns

Is what I'm currently running. I can't remember ever needing the ToA mainboard, and drawing EtW is infinitely better.

[entreri_fans]

Mainboard:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy


2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize/Therapy
1 Diminishing Returns

Is what I'm currently running. I can't remember ever needing the ToA mainboard, and drawing EtW is infinitely better.

WOW! your list seems fantastic,if we call it accurately,maybe it's TNT rather then TES?

You combine the stable mana base of ANT with explosiveness of TES(more tutors,moxen,and the red ramp).

Maybe I am wrong, but if you only rely on Volc Island and Badlands(but no basic lands) to produce red mana, would it be difficult to cast Rite of Flames sometimes when your Red Duals are wastedlanded?(but perhaps mox + petal can help you,I think?)

[Waikiki]

stable manabase means basics tho. I do like the list

[Awaclus]

Is anybody else having problems supporting their Xantid Swarms (or other off color disruption spells) out of the SB with only 6 gold lands? When I was playing with extra discard and bounce in the board I never had any issues resolving my spells, but after playing vs Wasteland.dec I've been routinely getting color screwed and forced to hold onto my extra off color disruption spells when I could go off otherwise.

Anybody else thinking going back to 4 City of Brass is the right call now that we're packing a more diversified color distribution?
No. 6 gold lands and 4 Lotus Petals have been enough for me, and if you can't cast it, you can sometimes imprint it for Chrome Mox for 1 practically colorless mana. If you feel that's not enough, I recommend 1x Tropical Island as a fetchland target rather than running more CoBs.

[SaberTooth]

Mainboard:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy


2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize/Therapy
1 Diminishing Returns

Is what I'm currently running. I can't remember ever needing the ToA mainboard, and drawing EtW is infinitely better.

Maybe you could cut 4 fetches to include 4 gemstone mines: 5 fetch, 4 duals, 4 gemstone. What do you think? i don't like a high amount of fechtlands with only 4 lands

[Bryant Cook]

You can view my thoughts on Probe Therapy in my GP Ghent article.

[dionykos]

Is anybody else having problems supporting their Xantid Swarms (or other off color disruption spells) out of the SB with only 6 gold lands? When I was playing with extra discard and bounce in the board I never had any issues resolving my spells, but after playing vs Wasteland.dec I've been routinely getting color screwed and forced to hold onto my extra off color disruption spells when I could go off otherwise.

Anybody else thinking going back to 4 City of Brass is the right call now that we're packing a more diversified color distribution?

I have exactly this problem. I tried with 4 City, it's definitly better for Xantid Swarm, however you lose 2 fetches so 2 shuffle effects which is quite bad for Brainstorm/Ponder.

[joemauer]

Is anybody else having problems supporting their Xantid Swarms (or other off color disruption spells) out of the SB with only 6 gold lands? When I was playing with extra discard and bounce in the board I never had any issues resolving my spells, but after playing vs Wasteland.dec I've been routinely getting color screwed and forced to hold onto my extra off color disruption spells when I could go off otherwise.

Anybody else thinking going back to 4 City of Brass is the right call now that we're packing a more diversified color distribution?

If I do have trouble digging up a gold land to cast Xantid Swarm, then I usually just cheat it in with Show and Tell.:tongue:

[Bryant Cook]

Guy's it's a two-of in the sideboard. You're only adding one card to the deck more than needs a gold land considering you should be siding out a Silence anyway (I do this because if I'm boarding in four protection spells, I don't want protection heavy hands).

Also, no Tendrils main in that list? Seems awful. I can't stress enough how much I dislike the Probe/Therapy package.

EDIT: Twice this weekend, I played a turn one Xantid Swarm to have my opponent have multiple Spell Pierce in hand. It felt damn good being a gangster.

[KevinTrudeau]

That TNT list looks interesting (might actually be the correct TES derivative against the metagame right now), but could definitely use some improvement I reckon; looks like Chalice absolutely shits on it. I'd initially go -3 Therapy -1 Duress in the maindeck for +4 Thoughtseize (has actually been pretty damn good in my list), fitting in the fourth copy of Duress in the board, and probably fit in a fourth Burning Wish somewhere (possibly just in place of the EtW). Empty the Warrens sounds like it could actually be better than Tendrils maindeck right now, though it also sounds pretty greedy. I'm gonna leave in the four Probe as I test this initially; can always potentially be on the chopping block, though. SB would initially be:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Shattering Spree/Pulverize (Pulverize sounds fucking dope here actually, also gets around Mom+Canonist)
1 Duress
1 Grapeshot/Virtue's Ruin/Infest/(Silent Departure/Deathmark)
1 flex slot (probably Silent Departure initially, though could be anything from Bill Cosby to fourth Swarm to Reverent Silence)
3 Xantid Swarm
3 bounce spell (to reiterate, a subjective decision; I'd be playing a minimum of two Echoing Truth since there've been a few Chalice decks floating around in tha 612 as of late),

with the Trop probably just being in the maindeck in place of the ninth fetchland. Basically, frogboy's list from autumn 2010, swapping the Thoughtseizes and Swarms and making it up-to-date with Past in Flames and possibly cutting four cards for Probes.

[SaberTooth]

Guy's it's a two-of in the sideboard. You're only adding one card to the deck more than needs a gold land considering you should be siding out a Silence anyway (I do this because if I'm boarding in four protection spells, I don't want protection heavy hands).

Also, no Tendrils main in that list? Seems awful. I can't stress enough how much I dislike the Probe/Therapy package.

EDIT: Twice this weekend, I played a turn one Xantid Swarm to have my opponent have multiple Spell Pierce in hand. It felt damn good being a gangster.

Stormgasm!

about that list. i think that the only value on tendrils in sb is improve Ad nauseam, but with etw, it makes no sense. there's a lot of life lost in that list too... even more with thoughtseize

[Tombstalker]

Mainboard:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize/Therapy
1 Diminishing Returns

Is what I'm currently running. I can't remember ever needing the ToA mainboard, and drawing EtW is infinitely better.
This list is definitely a departure from TES but what does it gain besides therapy + probe? Im on probe therapy btw with ANT and I love it (+SCM).
The main problems I see is the manabase is about as stable as Team America's, except without countermagic or stifle for protection and you run 4 total duals to 4 wastelands..
It seems RUG delver is a worse matchup for this list, although EtW main might offset this.
I guess what im asking is, is the slightly faster clock of TES' mox + rituals worth the significant loss of stability from just going with ANTs manabase and ritual suite?

Anyway I like the idea of EtW main except then I would think it gets pretty easy to hate out once the surprise factor wears off. I get the reasoning behind the switch with tendrils (i.e. counting to 10 vs only counting to 5+ with EtW right?) but the full set in your 75 seems excessive.
Not bashing the list because it it obviously has some inherent strengths, just wondering what the reasoning is for some of these changes.

[Waikiki]

manabase:
+ more fetchlands to protect yourself from waste
+ It makes brainstorm better
- no 5c to get BRU(g) divided into T1/T2
- Stifle gets more relevant? (probe intel really shines)

[SaberTooth]

manabase:
+ more fetchlands to protect yourself from waste
+ It makes brainstorm better
- no 5c to get BRU(g) divided into T1/T2
- Stifle gets more relevant? (probe intel really shines)

?? fetchlands doesn't protect you. Only basics or more than 4 non-basic lands

[Tombstalker]

manabase:
+ more fetchlands to protect yourself from waste
+ It makes brainstorm better
- no 5c to get BRU(g) divided into T1/T2
- Stifle gets more relevant? (probe intel really shines)
Ya I dont get this, obviously cantrips get better but 9 fetch/4 duals against RUG delvers4 stifle/4 wasteland is just ugly. All im saying is TES is pretty well optimized for what it wants to accomplish and so is ANT. Ive tried the mashup of both (against many peoples advice) and found out why its not recommended and thus why the two archtypes exist seperately.

[Waikiki]

alot of lists dont pack stifle. Wasteland isnt going to do much against a fetchland that is on the board.

Im not saying its better or worse but u cant deny a fetchland is better against wasteland then having a 5c land / dual in play.

[Tombstalker]

Waikiki
alot of lists dont pack stifle. Wasteland isnt going to do much against a fetchland that is on the board.

Im not saying its better or worse but u cant deny a fetchland is better against wasteland then having a 5c land / dual in play.
This is true, up until the fetch is cracked anyway, except that with only 4 duals total the options become pretty limited against tempo.dec as opposed to the 8 mana producing lands of TES or the basics of ANT.

Fair enough on stifle although likely an equal number of decks do still play stifle, which I consider to be the better choice.

Anyway I know this, I enjoyed TES and I enjoy ANT but the hybrids just didnt do what I hoped/expected. My fault? perhaps.

[Bahamuth]

Maybe you could cut 4 fetches to include 4 gemstone mines: 5 fetch, 4 duals, 4 gemstone. What do you think? i don't like a high amount of fechtlands with only 4 lands

9 Fetch 4 Duals is realistically almost never going to be a problem. However, Gemstone Mines are almost never a problem either. It's probably impossible to draw any conclusions here.




Also, no Tendrils main in that list? Seems awful. I can't stress enough how much I dislike the Probe/Therapy package.



Please explain to me why I need a dead card in my mainboard when I can practically always win the game with either an EtW or a Burning wish. The only ways I win games are:
- Casting EtW
- Casting AdN
- Hands with BW IT LED that win through IGG

For all these wins I don't need a mainboard ToA.

I almost never use the Returns because it's absolutely terrible. I wish there was something else I could run here. In fact, I wish I wouldn't have to play Burning Wish.

Concerning the Therapy/Probe package, I'm running 4 Probe no matter what, and I belive everyone should. I think 3 Therapy is completely fine with 4 Probe 4 Duress.


That TNT list looks interesting (might actually be the correct TES derivative against the metagame right now), but could definitely use some improvement I reckon; looks like Chalice absolutely shits on it. I'd initially go -3 Therapy -1 Duress in the maindeck for +4 Thoughtseize (has actually been pretty damn good in my list), fitting in the fourth copy of Duress in the board, and probably fit in a fourth Burning Wish somewhere (possibly just in place of the EtW). Empty the Warrens sounds like it could actually be better than Tendrils maindeck right now, though it also sounds pretty greedy. I'm gonna leave in the four Probe as I test this initially; can always potentially be on the chopping block, though. SB would initially be:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Shattering Spree/Pulverize (Pulverize sounds fucking dope here actually, also gets around Mom+Canonist)
1 Duress
1 Grapeshot/Virtue's Ruin/Infest/(Silent Departure/Deathmark)
1 flex slot (probably Silent Departure initially, though could be anything from Bill Cosby to fourth Swarm to Reverent Silence)
3 Xantid Swarm
3 bounce spell (to reiterate, a subjective decision; I'd be playing a minimum of two Echoing Truth since there've been a few Chalice decks floating around in tha 612 as of late),

with the Trop probably just being in the maindeck in place of the ninth fetchland. Basically, frogboy's list from autumn 2010, swapping the Thoughtseizes and Swarms and making it up-to-date with Past in Flames and possibly cutting four cards for Probes.

I think I disagree with basically everything you say here.

- I don't particularly care about Chalice decks. If they exist, I can cut something for a Pulverize or spree.
- I'm not running Thoughtseize specifically because it costs 2 life. With 4 Probes in the deck, that becomes a real issue.
- Replacing EtW with Burning Wish is the last thing I would do. Burning Wish is, together with Chrome Mox, the worst card in the deck.
- I disagree with running both IGG and PiF
- 3 EtW sideboard is the reason I play TES, and also makes Probe much better. EtW is by far the best plan we have against RUG.
- I'm not running a wasteable Island mainboard just to be able to cast 3 cards in some very specific matchups.



I guess what im asking is, is the slightly faster clock of TES' mox + rituals worth the significant loss of stability from just going with ANTs manabase and ritual suite?


This deck is just TES with different lands. People are cutting Stifles from RUG, so I'll gladly run fetchlands. 4 Mine might be fine as well.

Also, TNT is ANT with a splash to red, but with Cabal Ritual. I would classify the list that won GP Ghent as TNT. But whatever, doesn't really matter.

[Tombstalker]

Bahamuth- I like your replies, many of the issues you brought up are what plague me when deciding between TES, ANT, TNT etc. Im gonna sleeve up something similar, just because your list is different enough that I may be mistaken in my assessment of earlier hybrids.


I almost never use the Returns because it's absolutely terrible. I wish there was something else I could run here. In fact, I wish I wouldn't have to play Burning Wish.
I agree on both cards, im only using 2 wish currently and even tested entomb in its place. Ive been rolling with 2 snapcaster mage, although props go to someone else, but why not try the dude out just to make sure im not delusional. Sounds crazy but he fills the maindeck roll of a mini one-sided IGG very efficiently and is simply sick with probe therapy, plus beating someone down with a 2/1 is fucking funny.


Concerning the Therapy/Probe package, I'm running 4 Probe no matter what, and I belive everyone should. I think 3 Therapy is completely fine with 4 Probe 4 Duress.
This. Again with SCM you can seriously shred hands, its just ridiculous but thats just his secondary value besides flashing tutors etc.


This deck is just TES with different lands.QUOTE]
I guess this is what im getting at. It plays the accel of TES, but, its 3 color TES; it feels closer to TNT, but not quite. Would a couple basics really hurt? I dont think so and if not you may be onto something man.

[QUOTE]- Replacing EtW with Burning Wish is the last thing I would do. Burning Wish is, together with Chrome Mox, the worst card in the deck.
Again I have to agree, but what are the alternatives?


Also, TNT is ANT with a splash to red, but with Cabal Ritual. I would classify the list that won GP Ghent as TNT. But whatever, doesn't really matter.
I would too. Obviously you need red for EtW but can it function with CRs over RoF? I prefer CR after turn 2 (occasionally after turn 1) but maybe this is too slow since you probably want to dump your hand almost immediately with EtW as the primary plan. I guess im just evaluating this out loud because im liking most of the list except the manabase, and to an extent the RoF which likely means what I want isnt viable but maybe its still worth talking about idk.

[thefringthing]

I had a Merfolk player snap Force of Will my turn one Xantid Swarm. When I cast a second off of Lotus Petal, only then did he stop to read it. I'm not sure what to think about that, exactly.

[Tammit67]

I had a Merfolk player snap Force of Will my turn one Xantid Swarm. When I cast a second off of Lotus Petal, only then did he stop to read it. I'm not sure what to think about that, exactly.

Get better testing partners or congrats on your top 8 would be my lines of thought

[troopatroop]

I had a Merfolk player snap Force of Will my turn one Xantid Swarm. When I cast a second off of Lotus Petal, only then did he stop to read it. I'm not sure what to think about that, exactly.

Makes sense to me. He knew it was a must-counter by reputation. Only when he couldn't stop it was he bound to his fate, and he wanted to know what that was. He's kindov unlucky to have you peel another one off, especially on the same turn, but at least then you're down on cards, and he could possibly race you. I don't really see what you're saying, I still read everything just to make sure I don't miss something.

[thefringthing]

I just sort of expected that if he had to read it at all, he would do so at his earliest opportunity. Your explanation of his train of thought had occurred to me, and I suspect that was indeed what he was thinking.

In other storm news, I placed higher than Bryant on breakers at SCG Buffalo. :tongue:

In the Legacy Challenge I thought I had punted a game two to a Green-Black Metalworker deck by not recalling that Lodestone Golem didn't apply to artifact spells (he had Lodestone, Chalice on zero, and Revoker on LED), but now that I count out the mana again I think I coundn't have won. In game three I keep a hand that goes off on turn one if Probe hits any of 20 mana sources, miss, he locks me out.

That's a slight mark against Gitaxian Probe, but otherwise I didn't mind it. The notion of playing a fourteenth land (Badlands?) does make me rock hard though...

Did make a mistake in the last round of the Legacy Open playing for $50. I'm at 6 and my RUG Delver opponent had 6 on the ground and 3 in the air. I made a bunch of Goblins, but made a poor attack leaving only two blockers. He drew Forked Bolt and finished smashing my face in. I don't remember the exact life total situation, so it's possible I couldn't have won, but I think I might have given him some extra outs.

I played 1 Echoing Truth, 2 Chain of Vapor where Bryant has 2 Truth, 1 Grapeshot. There was one situation where I missed having Grapeshot, and had to pass the turn against an Elves opponent (who turned out to be in Bryant's car), but he bricked and I killed him on my turn.

The sideboard card I was least happy with was Past in Flames. I never used it. Probably going to try something else in that slot. Maybe the Grapeshot. Maybe even Chain Lightning or something like that.

I split my two matches against Merfolk, winning every game in which I played Xantid Swarm on turn one. You don't always have it though, and some of them are playing Spell Pierces or even Chalices main. It will be interesting to see their list once there's a concensus best version of the deck.

My other two losses were to Sneak Show and Blue-Red Delver. One storm short to kill the Sneak Show guy after he made an Emrakul in game one, game two he made a Griselbrand, and you know how that goes. Blue-Red guy just got me with more counterspells than I could disrupt. Apparently in game two he boarded in Spell Pierces and Mindbreak Traps. I didn't see them, but I guess that guy just decided he didn't want to lose to Rituals that day. He had Mana Leak main, oddly enough.

Two friends made Top 8, so that was nice. Couldn't talk Lucas Siow out of playing an awful Blue-Black Show and Tell deck, so obviously he scrubbed right out. Got to point out to Adrian Sullivan (who was fun to play against despite his awful commentary) that the little Asian guy and the white guy across the table from him over there were the creators of Canadian Threshold and T.E.S. respectively.

[Namida]

In game three I keep a hand that goes off on turn one if Probe hits any of 20 mana sources, miss, he locks me out.

That's a slight mark against Gitaxian Probe, but otherwise I didn't mind it.

Do you remember what your hand was? Are you saying that your hand was fine and you wouldn't have been locked out if Gitaxian Probe were a discard spell, or are you saying that Gitaxian Probe made you feel comfortable with keeping a hand that didn't do enough unless you drew perfectly?

[Bryant Cook]

Please explain to me why I need a dead card in my mainboard when I can practically always win the game with either an EtW or a Burning wish. The only ways I win games are:
- Casting EtW
- Casting AdN
- Hands with BW IT LED that win through IGG

For all these wins I don't need a mainboard ToA.

I almost never use the Returns because it's absolutely terrible. I wish there was something else I could run here. In fact, I wish I wouldn't have to play Burning Wish.

Concerning the Therapy/Probe package, I'm running 4 Probe no matter what, and I belive everyone should. I think 3 Therapy is completely fine with 4 Probe 4 Duress.


I've got nothing else to test with my current T.E.S. list, I'm fairly happy with where it is. But I'll test the ETW over ToA. There were some mulligans at the SCG open that were strictly because ToA was in my opening hand. These hands might've been solid if it were ETW. Instead of essentially a dead card. The only problem I have with this is that cards like Terminus are now real cards against us. The incentive I see to running four Probes is to make Past in Flames a better Burning Wish target, but in order to do so you're cutting a Burning Wish leaving the deck with only two other Wishes to find Tendrils. I'd like to see a third/forth Probe in the deck to make Past in Flames better but I don't know if I like going down to three Wish/Three Mox.

Also, I'd prefer Silence to Therapy every time. Losing the five color option all together sucks. Xantid Swarm is pretty damn good right now.

[Bahamuth]

The only problem I have with this is that cards like Terminus are now real cards against us.

Even against U/W Miracles, I still don't think I'd rather have the ToA. In my experience, casting a ToA for 10 from your hand never happens. Only when you both have a hand that can do that, and the opponents hand/plays allow for it, it's a possibility. I think it's more likely that I can win a game on EtW by them not finding a Ternimus (and this is very often the case because hands that draw the EtW very often cast it turn 2 and can often Duress their Brainstorm out), than that I win on ToA for 10. Additionally, I'll mulligan every hand where ToA is the only buisness spell, whereas I'll keep anything that resolves a quick EtW.


The incentive I see to running four Probes is to make Past in Flames a better Burning Wish target, but in order to do so you're cutting a Burning Wish leaving the deck with only two other Wishes to find Tendrils. I'd like to see a third/forth Probe in the deck to make Past in Flames better but I don't know if I like going down to three Wish/Three Mox.

As far as I'm concerned, the incentive to run Probes is to gain information that's often helping out immensly. I've won so many games where I just Probe on turn 2 and see my opponent has no answer to a quick EtW (with +1 storm from probe)


Also, I'd prefer Silence to Therapy every time. Losing the five color option all together sucks. Xantid Swarm is pretty damn good right now.

These two statements have nothing to do with each other. I'm not losing the 5 colour option, I'm gaining the 3 colour option. If it turns out to be better for casting Swarms, you can just run your manabase in my list.

Note that discard spells are more important in my list because it has the Empty the Warrens plan. Casting a discard spell the turn before casting EtW happens much more often than having to cast both Chant and EtW.

[Tammit67]

Even against U/W Miracles, I still don't think I'd rather have the ToA. In my experience, casting a ToA for 10 from your hand never happens. Only when you both have a hand that can do that, and the opponents hand/plays allow for it, it's a possibility. I think it's more likely that I can win a game on EtW by them not finding a Ternimus (and this is very often the case because hands that draw the EtW very often cast it turn 2 and can often Duress their Brainstorm out), than that I win on ToA for 10. Additionally, I'll mulligan every hand where ToA is the only buisness spell, whereas I'll keep anything that resolves a quick EtW.


Between cantrips, probe, and IT without hellbent, I rarely have problems getting to 8-10 storm (fetches help) without the opponent playing spells for tendrils to be relevant in a drawn out game. Factor in silence, which the counter deck has to counter (and why would they keep a hand without any?), naturally drawn tendrils is amazing against slower control decks! I'd even consider boarding the wish target in and boarding out one IT so BW isn't dead. Stoneforge makes this plan less attractive, but wanting EtW against stoneforge is risky as hell anyway, even without terminus

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant
@Bhamut

I agree with Bryant regarding Tendrils main, now with 4 probes are even better, you can garranty 9 spells with 8 cards beeing 1 a probe and another cantrip, 1 or 2 lands played.

I prefer to leave Empty in side, althouth is not a bad idea playing around therapys and duress to let Empty be stronger, however the only difference I see is that when playing Tendrils you'll play most the duresses and therapys the same turn, with Empty you can play the turn after, another argument is that when playing Tendrils Or Empty the cards you'll take will be the almost same cards AND with Empty you'll need preference over other cards (Terminus, senseis, E.E), these cards should not have in mind to pick up to a combo player, Definately prefer Tendrils.
Enough arguments.


I agree on no less than 4 burning also. It's key at least in TES.

My question to both:

About:
12 Lands - 3 mox or
11 Lands - 4 mox?
Don't consider 13 Lands with 4 gitaxian, I tested a litle and as I said lands and moxen repeat to much, I think its enough with 12 lands

And
3 therapys - 4 Dures or
4 therapys - 3 Dures?

I really think gitaxian should be included 4 in TES, they even get better hands with Tendrils.
The idea around 4 gitaxian and less lands, 12 to 11 is the parity also.

Let me know your ideas!

[KevinTrudeau]

@Bahamuth— I kind of agree with your suggestions now that I've wrapped my head around your goals for the deck, especially the part about Empty the Warrens vs. Canadian (and Maverick too, actually). Prioritizing an early EtW for 12+, which we both know is monumentally better than an EtW for 10, should probably have much more love than what I was giving it in my initial suggestion for a list, and Probe is obviously great in increasing the chances of an EtW for 12 as opposed to an EtW for 10. I still think you could probably cut a Rite of Flame (I don't agree with your declaration that BW is the second-worst card in the deck) for the fourth Probe. I can totally see Probe invalidating Past in Flames completely, so I can totally see agreeing with you in cutting it in the near future after I get my bearings in with Probe in testing.

I disagree with your assertion that EtW would be superior to ToA maindeck vs. UW (this take on a storm variant initially feels decisively worse vs. UW and Esper than, say, Bryant's current list; this is not to say it makes UWx an unfavorable matchup, of course). I also agree with Tammit that Probe makes Tendrils kills that much easier, making me hesitant to cut it from the maindeck. I actually can see preferring it vs. Canadian as early as turn three and almost assuredly turn four considering the chances they end the game at more than 18 life are pretty low, but there's most definitely not enough room for both if one should wish for four Probes, and Tendrils is usually 100% dead turns 1-3. It is certainly possible to just board out an IT or something for Tendrils though, which could definitely solve that problem.

But yes, having the actual storm spell in hand vs. Pierce/Daze is (or at least feels) SO much better than intending to tutor for one the same turn, so I totally think you're probably right about having access to four EtW in the 75.

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant
@Bhamut

I agree with Bryant regarding Tendrils main, now with 4 probes are even better, you can garranty 9 spells with 8 cards beeing 1 a probe and another cantrip, 1 or 2 lands played.

I prefer to leave Empty in side, althouth is not a bad idea playing around therapys and duress to let Empty be stronger, however the only difference I see is that when playing Tendrils you'll play most the duresses and therapys the same turn, with Empty you can play the turn after, another argument is that when playing Tendrils Or Empty the cards you'll take will be the almost same cards AND with Empty you'll need preference over other cards (Terminus, senseis, E.E), these cards should not have in mind to pick up to a combo player, Definately prefer Tendrils.
Enough arguments.


I agree on no less than 4 burning also. It's key at least in TES.

My question to both:

About:
12 Lands - 3 mox or
11 Lands - 4 mox?
Don't consider 13 Lands with 4 gitaxian, I tested a litle and as I said lands and moxen repeat to much, I think its enough with 12 lands

And
3 therapys - 4 Dures or
4 therapys - 3 Dures?

I really think gitaxian should be included 4 in TES, they even get better hands with Tendrils.
The idea around 4 gitaxian and less lands, 12 to 11 is the parity also.

Let me know your ideas!

I have been goldfishing. The deck's goals with only needing four mana allow for a lot more turn 1 going off. This has been really great. I'm currently at 3 mox/3Probe and 13 land. I'd like to fit the 4th Probe somewhere, but I don't know if cutting lands is correct. I'm also trying no Tendrils with an Empty. So far I haven't missed Tendrils.

My thought process is that with more Probes it's theoretically possible to draw more but with only twelve the chances are slimmer. I'd hate to make Wasteland better against us too. What are people cutting? The forth Gemstone?

I'm still playing Silence, it's too valuable against blue decks to pass up for a card like Cabal Therapy.

[thefringthing]

Cutting Silence seems like asking to lose to Spell Snare over and over.

For the guy who asked on the previous page: that hand I kept against Metalworker where the Git Probe needed to hit mana was pretty poor otherwise. I think a mulligan would have sent me down to five though.

Maindeck Empty the Warrens seems crummy against Stoneforge Mystic. Let's play a Badlands or an Island or something. (Especially since we're cutting a Chrome Mox.)

[Bryant Cook]

Cutting Silence seems like asking to lose to Spell Snare over and over.

For the guy who asked on the previous page: that hand I kept against Metalworker where the Git Probe needed to hit mana was pretty poor otherwise. I think a mulligan would have sent me down to five though.

Glad I'm not the only person to think so.

I still don't get how people think adding more Probes makes Past in Flames weaker. Makes the card amazing.

I lost the auction on a Japanese foil Xantid tonight. If someone here won it. Fuck you.

[joemauer]

I believe Silence is superior to Cabal Therapy.

Silence is nice when opponent is sitting behind a Leyline of Sanctity.
Silence can time walk us versus Junk or Maverick decks.
Silence is generally better at screwing over other combo decks, especially dredge.
Silence works better against stifles, mindbreak traps, and Spell Snares.
Silence makes D. Returns and Iggy loops good.

Cabal Therapy will still miss blindly or not matter when your opponent has two or three different answers.
If Cabal Therapy will rip apart a permission-esque deck's hand apart won't it just be countered anyway?



With Tendrils versus EtW: If we can win without Tendrils, has anyone tried to run neither? High Tides run zero maindeck win conditions and it works for them. Not saying this is the most optimal, but it makes Ad Nauseam better and our hands more consistent. Also makes room for another Probe or land. Just throwing the idea out there.
^Were you suggesting this thefringthing?

[thefringthing]

I was indeed suggesting that. It seems like Badlands would be the land of choice, but it might be interesting to try an Island, especially with all these Gitaxian Probes in the list now. Not sure yet how I feel about losing the fourth Chrome Mox, but I guess without a maindeck Tendrils, we're not necessarily losing a lot of consistency from Ad Nauseam.

Actually, what is the optimal configuration of four fetchable lands? A couple quick goldfishes leans me toward 2 Sea, 1 Volc, 1 Badlands, but it's easy to dismiss Wasteland when there's no one across from you to play them.

[joemauer]

I think if I were to add another land it would be Tundra to be able to cast Chants with more ease.

[Bryant Cook]

This is what I'm currently jamming for testing/goldfishing purposes. I don't know if it'll stick or not. (Part of me being a crazy person, I hate that there's three Chrome Mox to ruin the perfect list of fours all the way down)

3 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

2 Xantid Swarm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Deathmark
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm gonna chime in. I'm a huge fan of not having Tendrils main deck.

That's one of the things I loved about playing the German DDFT list that played a miser's Ad Nauseam over the 4th Ponder.

Resolving Ad Nauseam felt "painless."

[thefringthing]

I probably can't be convinced to play 12 lands. I also feel like 4 Gitaxian Probes is too many.

When my FBB German Badlands shows up, I'm going to try the following maindeck locally:

2 Polluted Delta, 1 Scalding Tarn, 1 Bloodstained Mire, 4 Gemstone Mine, 2 City of Brass, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 1 Badlands, 3 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Rite of Flame, 4 Infernal Tutor, 4 Burning Wish, 3 Duress, 4 Silence, 3 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm 1 Ad Nauseam.

[Rekk]

This is what I'm currently jamming for testing/goldfishing purposes. I don't know if it'll stick or not. (Part of me being a crazy person, I hate that there's three Chrome Mox to ruin the perfect list of fours all the way down)

3 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

2 Xantid Swarm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Deathmark
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames

cutting a land seems a bit risky I'm all for cutting a chrome mox since its probably my most hated card in the deck i can get on board with 3 probes 3 chromes. what made you feel the need to cut the land?

[dionykos]

I still don't get how people think adding more Probes makes Past in Flames weaker. Makes the card amazing.


It's interesting to notice that you (and others) are modifying TES to make it better for PiF (Probes are obv excellent for PiF), but worse for Ad Nauseam (Probes, cutting Moxes). This is also exactly what the ANT guys are doing: they added PiF and BW to their list, several copies of EtW in sb, and Ad Nauseam is now their plan B. And Ad Nauseam is in fact pretty bad in ANT right now, at least much worse than it was with the TES list before we cut Moxes and added Probes.

I'm wondering if we'll drop Ad Nauseam (or make it a plan B) eventually, and maindeck PiF. That would also open Thoughtseize and Cabal Ritual. Of course that's a lot of changes, but it may be the way to go if we want both EtW and Probes as key pieces.

Unrelated note: I'm a huge supporter of the 4-of in the main. It does look better.

[Lejay]

If you drop AdN you'll just end up playing ANT/TNT in the end. The difference between TES and ANT (or TNT) is that the former is centered around AdN (x2 + chrome moxes) and the latter despite its name is centered around PiF now. It's up to the point that Elie Pichon which made top 8 with it at GP Amsterdam said he will probably cut ad nauseam from the main deck.

It's as simple as that. Ad nauseam storm (TES) and PiF storm (ANT/TNT).

[dionykos]

If you drop AdN you'll just end up playing ANT/TNT in the end. The difference between TES and ANT (or TNT) is that the former is centered around AdN (x2 + chrome moxes) and the latter despite its name is centered around PiF now. It's up to the point that Elie Pichon which made top 8 with it at GP Amsterdam said he will probably cut ad nauseam from the main deck.

It's as simple as that. Ad nauseam storm (TES) and PiF storm (ANT/TNT).

That's exactly my point, maybe the two decks will converge. ANT actually made a big step towards TES when they added BW in the main. And now TES is cutting Moxes and adding Probes. Anyway, I'm not here to debate who's who, I'm just saying the two decks are becoming more similar, whereas before TES was clearly designed to optimize the use of AdNauseam.

[SaberTooth]

the idea of no win-cons MD seems good... with only 1 ad nauseam and no tendrils/etw, nauseam becomes A LOT better, at least in theory

[thefringthing]

Replacing Tendrils with a one-drop brings the average converted mana cost maindeck from 0.833 down to 0.783, but more important than that number is the fact that you can safely "hit" on three, to borrow nomenclature from blackjack.

[Lejay]

That's exactly my point, maybe the two decks will converge.
Sorry I thought it was clear but apparently not. I don't think you can tune a decklist to run both effectively. There will always be a A plan and a B (or C-D-E...) plan according to the tuning. My opinion is quite the opposite to yours. I think the decks will be more and more different, adapting perfectly to the main engine.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm gonna chime in. I'm a huge fan of not having Tendrils main deck.
That's one of the things I loved about playing the German DDFT list that played a miser's Ad Nauseam over the 4th Ponder.
Resolving Ad Nauseam felt "painless."
It still feels painless. Only one four casting cost card in the deck rarely matters. I'm not advocating cutting the main deck win condition. If people do this their list now requires six mana when going for the kill. What I find beautiful about going with the main deck Empty the Warrens is that now on turn one the deck can aim at only creating four mana to combo instead of five. Hands such as this (Below) are now insane:

Gitaxian Probe, Underground Sea, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor, X, and X.

Ten "bros" on the play against anything isn't bad. Not to mention those three other cards could all be nuts at helping this plan. The deck combos much earlier than it did previously, I'm a huge fan of this. Removing the main deck win-condition will only hurt this.


I probably can't be convinced to play 12 lands. I also feel like 4 Gitaxian Probes is too many.
When my FBB German Badlands shows up, I'm going to try the following maindeck locally:
2 Polluted Delta, 1 Scalding Tarn, 1 Bloodstained Mire, 4 Gemstone Mine, 2 City of Brass, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 1 Badlands, 3 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Rite of Flame, 4 Infernal Tutor, 4 Burning Wish, 3 Duress, 4 Silence, 3 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm 1 Ad Nauseam.

cutting a land seems a bit risky I'm all for cutting a chrome mox since its probably my most hated card in the deck i can get on board with 3 probes 3 chromes. what made you feel the need to cut the land?
Twelve lands has been fine so far, but I do need to get some solid testing in. The reason being that the deck is faster, it doesn't need to hit as many land drops on average through the course of several games. T.E.S. is now playing four more cantrips than it did when it originally added the thirteenth land too. Four additional draw spells to find a second land.

I don't know what I would cut to add the thirteenth land back in, probably a Probe.

I wouldn't play Badlands - ever. It doesn't actually cast anything in the deck until the combo turn. It's terrible. You're running it for the sake of owning a FBB one.



It's interesting to notice that you (and others) are modifying TES to make it better for PiF (Probes are obv excellent for PiF), but worse for Ad Nauseam (Probes, cutting Moxes). This is also exactly what the ANT guys are doing: they added PiF and BW to their list, several copies of EtW in sb, and Ad Nauseam is now their plan B. And Ad Nauseam is in fact pretty bad in ANT right now, at least much worse than it was with the TES list before we cut Moxes and added Probes.
I'm wondering if we'll drop Ad Nauseam (or make it a plan B) eventually, and maindeck PiF. That would also open Thoughtseize and Cabal Ritual. Of course that's a lot of changes, but it may be the way to go if we want both EtW and Probes as key pieces.
Unrelated note: I'm a huge supporter of the 4-of in the main. It does look better.
We're not modifying the deck for Past in Flames. We're modifying it for half protection/half cantrip feature that happens to make Empty the Warrens insanely good. It's just a bonus that the wish target has become stronger.
Ad Nauseam is still plan A folks.

The deck isn't much different, the overall casting cost has lowered from the previous month's lists. Making Ad Nauseam even stronger.

I don't see myself siding in more Warrens. They make Ad Nauseam terrible, I understand that this would be a list without Ad Nauseam, but that's terrible.

[dionykos]

We're not modifying the deck for Past in Flames. We're modifying it for half protection/half cantrip feature that happens to make Empty the Warrens insanely good. It's just a bonus that the wish target has become stronger.
Ad Nauseam is still plan A folks.

The deck isn't much different, the overall casting cost has lowered from the previous month's lists. Making Ad Nauseam even stronger.


Sure, the deck still runs Ad Nauseam as plan A, but I'm not sure Ad Nauseam is stronger now than it was a month ago. Lower overall casting cost surely helps, but doesn't do everything. We lose a Chrome Mox, and 4 Probes can hurt quite a lot. But at the same time, we transfered some power to PiF and EtW thanks to the Probe. In a word, I think Probe may not the best card to go with Ad Nauseam here. A bit like Thoughtseize.

[Bryant Cook]

Sure, the deck still runs Ad Nauseam as plan A, but I'm not sure Ad Nauseam is stronger now than it was a month ago. Lower overall casting cost surely helps, but doesn't do everything. We lose a Chrome Mox, and 4 Probes can hurt quite a lot. But at the same time, we transfered some power to PiF and EtW thanks to the Probe. In a word, I think Probe may not the best card to go with Ad Nauseam here. A bit like Thoughtseize.

It was a single Chrome Mox, it doesn't hurt that much. I'm probably going to end up cutting the forth Probe for the last Gemstone.

[Bahamuth]

I wouldn't play Badlands - ever. It doesn't actually cast anything in the deck until the combo turn. It's terrible. You're running it for the sake of owning a FBB one.

It casts Duress. And in my list Therapy. I wouldn't run it with the 5c manabase, but in a fetch base I think it's fine.




I don't see myself siding in more Warrens. They make Ad Nauseam terrible, I understand that this would be a list without Ad Nauseam, but that's terrible.

Please test against postboard RUG with -3 Wish +3 EtW. It makes things so much easier for me.

By the way, compared to the list you were previously running, AdN is probably a little worse, but it's still a 95% win.

[Bryant Cook]

It casts Duress. And in my list Therapy. I wouldn't run it with the 5c manabase, but in a fetch base I think it's fine.

Please test against postboard RUG with -3 Wish +3 EtW. It makes things so much easier for me.

By the way, compared to the list you were previously running, AdN is probably a little worse, but it's still a 95% win.

I will not be siding in empties. There's simply no room in the sideboard unless you cut Xantids/Discard.

I was comparing it to the lists from a month ago that had two Ad Nauseam. It's better than those.

[TerribleTim68]

It's funny, I've been away from TES for several months and haven't followed this thread very seriously until the last few days. I had been playing a single Ad Nauseum since late last year when you guys were still running two. I remember getting ridiculed over the single copy vs two copies and the debate over the second copy being "more explosive". So it's kinda funny to see that months later you guys are where I was on the thought that the second copy can hurt or even cost you a game on a flip from the first copy. I also was running only a Tendrils of Agony maindeck and the Empty The Warrens in the side, so only 1 kill condition maindeck. My reasoning was again, it hurt to flip it to that Ad Nauseum. So I guess I'm kinda smiling on the inside a bit after reading all this. :cool:

Either way, the Empty The Warrens or the Tendrils of Agony main deck and the other sideboard, it all works the same. I don't think I'd put them both in the side board though. It's too easy to counter your Burning Wish if that's your only out, you'd be relying on Silence to shut them out, which isn't that great some times (or you just don't find it). Seems like the Empty The Warrens is stronger maindeck since the storm aspect renders counters less useful, so I like where you've ended up there.

I'm just saying. I like where this is headed. I'm by no means a deck building guru. I'll leave that in your hands. I do appreciate the work you put into it too. Keep tuning, maybe I'll come back to TES soon. :cool:

[emidln]

I'll just point out that 2 AdN vs 1 AdN, 0 Win conditions vs 1 vs 2 win conditions are all based on what you expect to be playing against (i.e. the metagame). If you don't understand this, then you'll likely never have success with this (or any other) deck. Cards might be powerful in the abstract, but determinations of whether something is good or bad is very situational.

[thefringthing]

I disagree regarding the Badlands; I think it's the natural inclusion for a 14th land. Occasionally you want to cast Duress one turn and Rite of Flame the next without digging out a second land.

I am starting to waffle on the zero win-conditions maindeck plan. It's not actively bad—I'm not encountering situations where it's screwing me—just makes the mana requirements for a lot of lines slightly awkward. I'm not really convinced that Empty the Warrens is worth of maindeck inclusion as long as Batterskull exists though. I guess it might come down to a metagame call: lots of Delver = Empty, lots of Stoneblade = Tendrils.

[Dark Ritual]

Xantid is in the board mainly for merfolk and sneak and show. Against merfolk, making 10 dudes turn 1 is just as solid if not better than xantid. And in Bahamuth's list, he still runs 3 xantid swarms in the SB. Making the sneak and show and merfolk matchups extremely favorable. Literally the only thing against siding in 3 EtW's is the ad nauseam plan. And if we SB in 3 EtW's I imagine ad nauseam would then be a plan B with EtW on turn 1 being the main plan.

On that japanese foil xantid, I bid 90. Then someone bid 91. Not sure who. Anyways, I couldn't bid back as I didn't have access to the internet. Maybe Pokezel bid 91? I'm not sure, I might ask him this weekend. Either way, 91 for a japanese foil xantid is a pretty good deal considering how hard it is to find them.

I'm on the fence about badlands. I think it's good enough, but at the same time I can't stand the card sometimes namely the times where it's my only land in hand and I cannot cast cantrips. It's very tempting to cut it for a volcanic island or a tundra if we go the silence/5c route.

People can keep on saying probe is bad with ad nauseam all they want. Flipping over a 1 drop rarely matters with AdN. On top of that, you aren't required to cast the card after AdN has resolved. If you're relying on probe to draw you into the win post ad nauseam, expect to be disappointed. And I'd rather be flipping over a 1 drop versus a 4 drop like tendrils or another ad nauseam. Typically, I just don't care what I flip with ad nauseam as you usually flip over the win with the card quite easily as drawing 20 cards typically wins the game.

I'm not a fan of 0 win cons maindeck. EtW is absolutely fine right now, since RUG cannot beat the card on the draw or when they're tapped out. Heck, lists are cutting spell snare and stifle making EtW that much better. If they counter a copy of EtW with a spell pierce, I'll shrug and say "can you race my 8 goblin tokens?" Also agree with Bryant in that it's a lot better to have a win con maindeck, so you don't have to go infernal tutor -> wish -> EtW if infernal tutor is the only tutor in your hand.

[egosum]

As werid as it may sound I 'm testing 2x Pithing Needle in the sideboard in the place of Xantids. Why is it? Well, Xantid is there to improve the Reanimator, Sneak & Show and Merfolk Match up. Pithing may be as useful as xatind in 2 of the three pairings: against reanimator and sneak and show shuts Griselbrand down, moreover in the S&S can take the sneak attack on if we feel it is necessary (as the info taken with duress/IoK/Probe may reveal). Though against the menfolks kinda sucks (well you can always Needle on Vial or Cursecatcher, being the latter a bit more useful, but is not of relevance). But the point is that Needle may be brought against CB Top swell, for shutting down the top (obi.) reducing CB efficiency quite a lot for just one colorless mana. Xantid is simply awful against CB-Top. I would recommend anyone who has a metagame infested with Miracles-Top to try it.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Most productive this thread's been in months.

[Tammit67]

Most productive this thread's been in months.

Bryant finally found a change he likes that others aren't so eager to follow him on

[emidln]

I've been testing a list almost identical to Bahamuth's on cockatrice and really like the way it plays. I think I'm at 2 volc, 1 usea so I have the third land to support pulverize better, but it's otherwise identical.

Some things to note: As sorely tempted as you might be to cut the ETW for Wish #4, ETW enables this really common line of play: Probe, Ritual, LED, IT->10 goblins. This is extremely powerful and a very simple way to beat common decks. That you can flashback therapy after ETW is wonderful for beating Batterskull after they SFM for it.

[beebles]

I kind of want to play this deck at the scg tournament in DC this weekend and have some beginner questions. Still not sure though since it seems too hard.

Do you board in the Ill gotten gains or does it always stay in the board as a wish target? It seems a difficult to use wish target to me. I mean you are basically need to both have the Burning wish (to get the Igg in the first place), and also a Infernal Tutor in hand or in the graveyard right to set up the loop right?

It seems a lot easier in the main deck against non blue decks--just need a few rituals/leds and an infernal tutor and they are more or less dead right? Seems better than Ad Nauseam against stuff like goblins or zoo...

What do you guys think of just running Karakas or two in the board as the hate against maverick? It seems to be the only easy way around Mom + hate bear and it sort of helps against wasteland... Only have 1-2 slots free in the board though. Also I only own 1 and they are pricy. Board now is:

3 Deathmark
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past In Flames
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Karakas
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils
1 Empty the Warrens

[thefringthing]

A Burning Wish in hand and an Infernal Tutor in the graveyard happens more often than you might think. You can board in Ill-Gotten Gains against non-blue decks but I usually don't bother.

I don't think Karakas is useful against Maverick, but it might be okay against Show and Tell and Reanimator. The sideboard you listed doesn't have Xantid Swarm, which is extremely helpful against Merfolk.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't think Karakas is useful against Maverick, but it might be okay against Show and Tell and Reanimator. The sideboard you listed doesn't have Xantid Swarm, which is extremely helpful against Merfolk.

I've actually considered Karakas over Deathmark in my sideboard before.


I disagree regarding the Badlands; I think it's the natural inclusion for a 14th land. Occasionally you want to cast Duress one turn and Rite of Flame the next without digging out a second land.

I am starting to waffle on the zero win-conditions maindeck plan. It's not actively bad—I'm not encountering situations where it's screwing me—just makes the mana requirements for a lot of lines slightly awkward. I'm not really convinced that Empty the Warrens is worth of maindeck inclusion as long as Batterskull exists though. I guess it might come down to a metagame call: lots of Delver = Empty, lots of Stoneblade = Tendrils.

I would play a basic Island/Swamp over a Badlands. The turn one Duress/Turn two Rite of Flame hand without needing blue/white mana is bullshit.

[jjjoness']

I've actually considered Karakas over Deathmark in my sideboard before.

Iirc lejay has been playing MD Karakas in his DDFT lists for quite a while now (another 2 in the board, I believe).
However, maindecking Karakas is out of the question here. I don't know if the reusability of Karakas makes up for the possibility to kill non-legendary creatures with Deathmark.

[Bryant Cook]

Iirc lejay has been playing MD Karakas in his DDFT lists for quite a while now (another 2 in the board, I believe).
However, maindecking Karakas is out of the question here. I don't know if the reusability of Karakas makes up for the possibility to kill non-legendary creatures with Deathmark.

I'm just curious, what non-Legendary creatures other than Cannonist does this deck care about? There's still Grapeshot for Cannonist.

[SaberTooth]

i think that tes doesn't really need more removal (or creature hate in general), but im trying to put some DoN. there's a lot of maverick in my meta

i wanna try etw MD too... seems good. at first i was like "etw instead of toa? nono", but now seems so good

a little question: vs burn g2/g3, what do you think about move ad nauseam to the SB to use ill-gotten gains MD?

sry 4 my english

[emidln]

If you believe that you can deal with Canonist in other ways (Pulverize, Deathmark, Shattering Spree, Grapeshot, IoK), Karakas is a far better solution to Thalia/Teeg than Dread of Night, particularly if you are playing fewer than 4.

[Dark Ritual]

Karakas is pretty great in the sneak and show matchup and reanimator matchup as well. When you bounce iona and go off, the reanimator player will probably think to himself "karakas? In storm combo?" Against sneak and show it is great against their show and tell plan when you put karakas in off of show and tell. It's a little weak to sneak attack if they have multiple red sources, but you don't want them to get to that point anyways.

The only creatures that karakas does not bounce that we care about (not exactly relevant creatures but still) are true believer, meddling mage, glowrider, and phyrexian revoker. Stoneforge mystic to an extent, because it would be quite saucy to bounce SFM so they can't cheat batterskull into play against our EtW plan.

Karakas in our maindeck doesn't make much sense at all. As a sideboard plan over deathmark and other such options, I'm not sure. The reason it works so well in doomsday is because they have infinite library manipulation and can find karakas with doomsday to answer teeg.

You don't -need- infernal tutor in the yard in order to abuse ill-gotten gains. You can have another burning wish, which seems better actually now that tendrils is out of the maindeck. And I can't count the number of times I've drawn extra wishes/tutors, it's sometimes annoying when you want to draw mana but instead you draw yet another copy of IT or BW.

[Bryant Cook]

Karakas is pretty great in the sneak and show matchup and reanimator matchup as well. When you bounce iona and go off, the reanimator player will probably think to himself "karakas? In storm combo?" Against sneak and show it is great against their show and tell plan when you put karakas in off of show and tell. It's a little weak to sneak attack if they have multiple red sources, but you don't want them to get to that point anyways.

If I were to play Karakas part of me would want to play two to ensure I drew it against these match-ups. However, the only feasible way to add a second to the sideboard would be to choose between Ill-Gotten Gains / Past in Flames or cut a discard spell.

[Dark Ritual]

Personally I would cut the past in flames if you were to run karakas. Past in flames has been super meh for me though and I'm not that big a fan of the card. If you have no chants I would cut IGG, as no chants makes IGG a lot worse. I'm a fan of a SB discard spell, always have been. If I don't have a SB discard spell it can be rather annoying. Karakas as a 1 of in the board seems rather pointless. 2 is the minimum in my eyes as well, otherwise you're not going to be able to find the miser copy in time most likely.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Sounds like a European TES list.

tldr; jajajajajaja

[emidln]

Personally I would cut the past in flames if you were to run karakas. Past in flames has been super meh for me though and I'm not that big a fan of the card. If you have no chants I would cut IGG, as no chants makes IGG a lot worse. I'm a fan of a SB discard spell, always have been. If I don't have a SB discard spell it can be rather annoying. Karakas as a 1 of in the board seems rather pointless. 2 is the minimum in my eyes as well, otherwise you're not going to be able to find the miser copy in time most likely.

Re: Past in Flames

Have you ever resolved this card? Even once? You realize it says that stuff in your graveyard has flashback right? For the same mana you thought was a bargain the first time? Meh must mean "wins the game on the spot" where you're from.

tl;dr: Play Past in Flames if you like winning.

If you wanted to play a sideboard with 2-3 Karakas in the UBR list, you do it like this:

4 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Pulverize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Karakas
1 Massacre

You board like this: -4 Duress, +3 Karakas, +1 Massacre. If you really want to, you can bring in an ETW or the 4th Therapy for a Ponder.

You might think you're going to lose to people that overload on enchantments (leyline white plus others), but you still have ETW and the fact that people who play Leyline of Sanctity plus other hateful enchantments typically dwell in the loser's bracket. That said, you can probably justify a singleton Chain of Vapor if you really wanted to.

Note how you can elegantly still kill Teeg (Grapeshot), Thalia (Massacre), and Canonist (Pulverize or Grapeshot) all in g1 (although admittedly, combinations would be tricky).

[Tombstalker]

How necessary is IGG now that PiF exists? I like IGG but so many decks I face play blue that it mostly stays in the board. Against non blue I do board it in but often PiF would have done the same thing without giving back a kotr or other shit I spent time discarding. I play a UBr list btw and im thinking of removing it for..something, not sure what yet which is why its still there.

[KevinTrudeau]

How necessary is IGG now that PiF exists? I like IGG but so many decks I face play blue that it mostly stays in the board. Against non blue I do board it in but often PiF would have done the same thing without giving back a kotr or other shit I spent time discarding. I play a UBr list btw and im thinking of removing it for..something, not sure what yet which is why its still there.

Not as necessary, but still pretty necessary; IGG is the pain-free storm generator for when you have LEDs as your fast mana (you usually find the second with an Infernal Tutor), and Past in Flames is the pain-free storm generator for when you have (minimum) three Rituals (can be, say, 2 Rituals and 1 Rite, or 2 Rites and 1 Ritual; you usually find the second with an Infernal Tutor) as your fast mana and three initial mana. Basically, if you cut IGG, you cut out one half (the half I've found to be much more common vs. nonblue decks) of the ways you win with Tendrils (discounting storming for 10 without the use of a generator). The lack of Chants in a UBr list certainly hurts it (as well as Diminshing Returns), and it might be correct to cut it if you've found a board you like and you really, really want that last slot, but don't if you don't have to.

@emidln— not playing an Empty in the maindeck? Also, agreed that PiF is probably (not certainly mind you, esp. now that naturally Tendrilsing them is easier with four Probe) correct to play; UW matchup gets a tad worse without it, although you're exaggerating its worth just a bit.

[beebles]

emidln, your suggested sb intrigues me. 4 etw? What decks would you want 3 md ETW against (leaving one in the board right?) Super counter heavy blue decks, that don't have batterskull, like RUG and BUG or something? Do you board out ad nauseam and/or tendrils entirely when on this plan?

[Dark Ritual]

Yes, I have resolved past in flames. Yes, the card occasionally wins the game. However, it isn't a guaranteed win every time you cast the card. Sure the card is good. However, when I stare at my graveyard that has piles of artifacts in there the card is quite dead. Whereas when I IGG getting back double black lotus and demonic tutor I smile and proceed to win against anyone not holding countermagic or lacking countermagic in their graveyard that they can cast. I just can't justify running 2 almost identical cards in the wishboard (IGG and PiF) when you could use that extra slot to improve some matchup. As for your proposed sideboard, I agree with the grand majority of it except PiF. Chain of vapor is a card I'm a huge fan of though, so I'm probably biased.

Went 2-2 with Bahamuth's list tonight. The deck was pretty solid, but the losses were to affinity and canadian thresh. Against affinity I won game 1 with ease after I therapied his cranial plating/entire clock away after he stoneforged for it. Game two he gets thalia and thorn of amethyst down (both are singletons I find out later) and I'm holding echoing truth and burning wish, however 4 mana spells are incredibly bad in a deck with 4 lands. He also boarded in a playset of spell pierce, and he pierced a mox, which was incredibly relevant. Game 3 I draw incredibly bad and lose to thalia again. I was mostly sad because I didn't have pulverize in the board to blow him out. Also lost to Ryan Overturf piloting can. thresh. Game 1 I'm on the play, probe him seeing no force of will. Make 10 goblins. Win. Game 2, I try to combo off but he stops my second rite of flame with a spell pierce. I make 4 goblins at one point, he gets 2 threshed mongeese. I lose. Game 3 he flips 2 delvers and I mull to 5 not so strong cards and lose.

[Final Fortune]

I believe Silence is superior to Cabal Therapy.

Silence is nice when opponent is sitting behind a Leyline of Sanctity.
Silence can time walk us versus Junk or Maverick decks.
Silence is generally better at screwing over other combo decks, especially dredge.
Silence works better against stifles, mindbreak traps, and Spell Snares.
Silence makes D. Returns and Iggy loops good.

Cabal Therapy will still miss blindly or not matter when your opponent has two or three different answers.
If Cabal Therapy will rip apart a permission-esque deck's hand apart won't it just be countered anyway?



With Tendrils versus EtW: If we can win without Tendrils, has anyone tried to run neither? High Tides run zero maindeck win conditions and it works for them. Not saying this is the most optimal, but it makes Ad Nauseam better and our hands more consistent. Also makes room for another Probe or land. Just throwing the idea out there.
^Were you suggesting this thefringthing?

The difference between Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens is that Empty the Warrens is both a business spell in your opening hand and a secondary Infernal Tutor target that allows you to go off on turn one for only four mana. Hands that consist of Gitaxian Probe, Infernal Tutor, Land, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox, Duress are absolutely ridiculous because you can look at their hand, see no counter magic and then immediately go off on them for 12+ Goblins.

As far as what to cut for the 4th Probe, I think you should probably try SBing the Infernal Tutor if you can find the space for it. I find with cutting the 4th Chrome Mox and playing the 3rd or 4th Probe I'm not really boarding in as much disruption as I use to vs Merfolk and RUG. I find the +2 Empty the Warrens is more conservative for SB space than the 4 to 5 extra disruption slots in the common aggro-control match ups and is playable in the BANT match up as well. Honestly I only really want to SB in Xantids vs Merfolk, Sneak&Show and Reanimator, and I think it's better to be able to SB in Empty the Warrens vs Merfolk and RUG since the Sneak&Show match up really isn't that bad if they are playing Misdirection, Overmaster and Defense Grids etc. and I still think the SB slot for Bribery is well worth it just for those particular match ups anyway.

I don't really understand what you guys are doing with the UBR TES lists, what is the point of playing UBR TES if you aren't playing a MD Island and Swamp to protect your manabase? Cabal Therapy is pretty bad compared to Silence, and the only reason Burning Wish feels like the worst card in your deck is because you made it the worst card in your deck by not playing the right disruption suite to protect Diminishing Returns, and you don't have access to an effective Burning Wish target vs Sneak/Show and Reanimator without Ad Nauseam via Burning Wish->Infernal Tutor->Ad Nauseam and/or Bribery. I mean, you've pretty much castrated yourselves by having to play a shittier disruption card and a shittier win condition for no gains in manabase stability, wtf is the point of doing that exactly? More fetchlands for Brainstorm? All you've really struck upon from what I can tell is that 4 Probes are pretty good and Empty the Warrens is better than Tendrils of Agony in the main, the rest seems kind of bad IMO.

I'm not saying this is perfect, but I'd probably test something like

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flames
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass (I don't care about the life loss, I just want white mana fwiw)
4 Gemstone Mind
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Duress
1 Death Mark
1 Shattering Spree
4 Chain of Vapor
1 (Open)

I'm not a fan of Ill Gotten Gains or Grapeshot anymore, the first seems unnecessary and the second is absolutely fucking horrible at removing Thalia. The SB plan vs Maverick is just to board out all copies of Silence and Duress for 4 Chain of Vapor, 2 ETW and the Infernal Tutor.

[Bahamuth]

I don't really understand what you guys are doing with the UBR TES lists, what is the point of playing UBR TES if you aren't playing a MD Island and Swamp to protect your manabase? Cabal Therapy is pretty bad compared to Silence, and the only reason Burning Wish feels like the worst card in your deck is because you made it the worst card in your deck by not playing the right disruption suite to protect Diminishing Returns, and you don't have access to an effective Burning Wish target vs Sneak/Show and Reanimator without Ad Nauseam via Burning Wish->Infernal Tutor->Ad Nauseam and/or Bribery. I mean, you've pretty much castrated yourselves by having to play a shittier disruption card and a shittier win condition for no gains in manabase stability, wtf is the point of doing that exactly? More fetchlands for Brainstorm?



I'm playing UBr because I don't want to play Silence. I disagree that Therapy is bad compared to Silence. I don't think the mana of this deck is good enough that I want to play protection I have to play the same turn as I'm winning. Especially with RUG being the most dominant deck.

You can't be serious about Diminishing Returns. Even without considering my opponents hand, I think Returns is terrible. BW->IT->Ad Nauseam costs 9 mana. I'm not cutting an IT for that. Bribery is such a corner case situation. Decks it's good against aren't even very popular right now, and against them, it's usually more about playing through his counters than about your method of winning the game. This is especially true with Therapy in the deck as it allows you to do EtW and flashback to get rid of his combo.



All you've really struck upon from what I can tell is that 4 Probes are pretty good and Empty the Warrens is better than Tendrils of Agony in the main, the rest seems kind of bad IMO.

What the hell is your problem? I come here posting about my TES list my team has been running for a year to help you out, and this is your response? Very nice of you man.

[emidln]

emidln, your suggested sb intrigues me. 4 etw? What decks would you want 3 md ETW against (leaving one in the board right?) Super counter heavy blue decks, that don't have batterskull, like RUG and BUG or something? Do you board out ad nauseam and/or tendrils entirely when on this plan?

ETW basically vs Force of Will decks. There are some times when I wouldn't ETW, but if you don't need to ETW, it likely means they're a slow and lumbering deck that will just let you duress/ts their 1-2 spells then kill them via AdN or Past in Flames.

ETW is fine vs batterskull decks as long as you aren't playing garbage like Silence. You ETW and then when they play their turn 2 SFM->Batterskull you get to attack them then flashback a therapy. Failing that, you can still Wish->Pulverize.

I don't play Tendrils in my maindeck. My maindeck is very similar to Bahamuth's:

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

I'm not entirely certain I want the basics at this point, and I might eventually concede that Gemstone Mine is better than basics + badlands (although I still wouldn't choose to play Silence/Chant). This would put me off of Pulverize, which I always regret not having.

[Tombstalker]

I'm not entirely certain I want the basics at this point, and I might eventually concede that Gemstone Mine is better than basics + badlands (although I still wouldn't choose to play Silence/Chant). This would put me off of Pulverize, which I always regret not having.
Yes, this is the subject I want to bring up, again. Could you please elaborate on your experiences with gold lands vs. duals + basics?

Also with the addition of 4 probe + EtW plan do you (and to any other expert storm pilots here) still feel 3-4 chrome mox is the correct number?

Lastly in the 3 color lists with probe feeding threshold is RoF still better than cabal ritual? Ive tested but I just cant tell.

[beebles]

Well my bags are packed and I am heading to the bus in little bit to Washington DC so no more time for tweaking. I really don't like the idea of no Tendils MD, it seems like there will likely be too many times when you go off with ad nauseam and get down too low on life to not win on the spot. Yes I undersand you wish for tendrils but no tendrils md means your Ad Nasueams are going to eat up more life those times when you reveal infernal tutors but no burning wish. Yes I know you can IT for BW but then you need 8 mana to kill them which again is going to be too hard I fear when Ad Naseaming from a relatively low life count.

I am just gonna play the Ari Lax more or less tock list, but I don't like the 2 Ad Nauseam main, gonna go with 1 Ad Nauseam main, 1 Tendrils Main and 1 ETW main.

In my testing and goldfishing I really like the md etw. I am not that proficent with the deck and I love ETW since it seems so much easier to just belch out a bunch of goblins on to the board turn 1, then to craft the perfect turn where you chant them them ad nauseam tendrils kill them.

[Bryant Cook]

If you wanted to play a sideboard with 2-3 Karakas in the UBR list, you do it like this:

4 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Pulverize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Karakas
1 Massacre

You board like this: -4 Duress, +3 Karakas, +1 Massacre. If you really want to, you can bring in an ETW or the 4th Therapy for a Ponder.

You might think you're going to lose to people that overload on enchantments (leyline white plus others), but you still have ETW and the fact that people who play Leyline of Sanctity plus other hateful enchantments typically dwell in the loser's bracket. That said, you can probably justify a singleton Chain of Vapor if you really wanted to.

Note how you can elegantly still kill Teeg (Grapeshot), Thalia (Massacre), and Canonist (Pulverize or Grapeshot) all in g1 (although admittedly, combinations would be tricky).

This sideboard is hideous. Yes, Empty the Warrens is better than Tendrils in the main deck. But you shouldn't be forcing Goblin tokens down people's throats all the time. You've taken away one of the great things about this deck and that's options. With siding in Warrens there's no longer Ad Nauseam. You've made removal relevant.

You took away Xantid to help us with our problematic match-ups (Merfolk, Reanimator, and Sneak Show) but you did add a third Karakas to make up for it. Don't you think that's a bit obsessive? Two is a fine number. This sideboard also lacks a general plan against decks where protection is bad. You can't sideboard out Silences without bringing in dead lands or Empty the Warrens to lose to cards like Deed.

Massacre? Is this really needed? You already have three Karakas. Then Pulverize. This card blows - Seriously. What is the game plan against Trinisphere? Pay three mana, sacrifice two lands and lose the game?


How necessary is IGG now that PiF exists? I like IGG but so many decks I face play blue that it mostly stays in the board. Against non blue I do board it in but often PiF would have done the same thing without giving back a kotr or other shit I spent time discarding. I play a UBr list btw and im thinking of removing it for..something, not sure what yet which is why its still there.

My article should be coming out today or tomorrow that addresses this.


I'm playing UBr because I don't want to play Silence. I disagree that Therapy is bad compared to Silence. I don't think the mana of this deck is good enough that I want to play protection I have to play the same turn as I'm winning. Especially with RUG being the most dominant deck.
You can't be serious about Diminishing Returns. Even without considering my opponents hand, I think Returns is terrible. BW->IT->Ad Nauseam costs 9 mana. I'm not cutting an IT for that. Bribery is such a corner case situation. Decks it's good against aren't even very popular right now, and against them, it's usually more about playing through his counters than about your method of winning the game. This is especially true with Therapy in the deck as it allows you to do EtW and flashback to get rid of his combo.

Therapy is a miserable card. Silence's impact on a game will have a much larger effect considering it's a must counter or lose. With therapy your opponents are free to sit back and wait for you miss or take one card and cast another. Silence has more applications and is the better card for Storm combo.

As for Returns, we get it, you don't like the card. Diminishing Returns is a fine card, perhaps you're using it wrong. It's not a last ditch effort as people make it seem. Although, I do agree with the sideboard Infernal Tutor not being correct.

[Bahamuth]

This sideboard is hideous. Yes, Empty the Warrens is better than Tendrils in the main deck. But you shouldn't be forcing Goblin tokens down people's throats all the time. You've taken away one of the great things about this deck and that's options. With siding in Warrens there's no longer Ad Nauseam. You've made removal relevant.

Why would I care about good Ad Nauseams when I can beat RUG by boarding 3 EtW every time? They usually only have 2 postboard answers. Ad Nauseam is still very castable with 4 EtW by the way. You can just find some mana and an EtW and cast it for a ton.


Therapy is a miserable card. Silence's impact on a game will have a much larger effect considering it's a must counter or lose. With therapy your opponents are free to sit back and wait for you miss or take one card and cast another. Silence has more applications and is the better card for Storm combo.

Sure it's a stronger effect, but you have to cast it in your own turn. I don't think we can conclusively argue which of the cards is better anyway. I prefer Therapy.


As for Returns, we get it, you don't like the card. Diminishing Returns is a fine card, perhaps you're using it wrong. It's not a last ditch effort as people make it seem. Although, I do agree with the sideboard Infernal Tutor not being correct.

Why would I ever decide to cast Returns if I can just make a bunch of tokens and win with it? Are you saying you will still cast Returns even if you can win through other BW targets?

[Bryant Cook]

Why would I care about good Ad Nauseams when I can beat RUG by boarding 3 EtW every time? They usually only have 2 postboard answers. Ad Nauseam is still very castable with 4 EtW by the way. You can just find some mana and an EtW and cast it for a ton.

Sure it's a stronger effect, but you have to cast it in your own turn. I don't think we can conclusively argue which of the cards is better anyway. I prefer Therapy.

Why would I ever decide to cast Returns if I can just make a bunch of tokens and win with it? Are you saying you will still cast Returns even if you can win through other BW targets?

Believe it or not, Empty the Warrens doesn't always get the job done.

[Bahamuth]

It basically always does vs Rug

[Bryant Cook]

It basically always does vs Rug

In one match-up and not even always. Some lists still pack Stifle main deck and Rough/Tumble sideboard. Your's and Emildn's list trade off options for redundancy of a single plan. This is something I don't find desirable.

[beebles]

Just read your article Bryant and liked it. I feel a little uncomfortable cutting down on Chrome moxes since it always seems mana is so super tight and wasteland is such a huge problem as it is. Do you think maybe trimming a ponder instead of a mox for the 3rd probe would work? I feel running 3 probes sort of makes up for missing one ponder. My logic is if you want to go off with ETW, faster ponders are going to slow you down and moxes enable more frequent turn 1 ETW swarms.

[emidln]

Pulverize is the most efficient way of dealing with any number of chalices*, trinispheres, or spheres. More efficient than Shattering Spree, Meltdown, H.Recall. 100%. All the time.*

*obviously lackluster vs chalice @ 6, but let's be realistic. This situation is only a karma punishment resulting from very lucky aggro loam players who want to repay you for Grapeshotting them the last 15 times you played.

I don't need to side out my protection because Therapy and Duress aren't bad when I don't want Karakas/Massacre. Silence is pretty bad, but I wouldn't play that card anyway.

3 Karakas ensures that I actually draw one in the relevant matchups. The Massacre gets sided in along with Karakas, but it's more efficient at killing Thalia or Canonist than Grapeshot, and that extra efficiences often matters vs their clock. Importantly, Karakas is a better answer to Teeg or Thalia than any other spot removal due to being unaffected by Mother of Runes and the hatebears themselves.

The sideboard for the list I posted is actually off by a card (The DCI sadly doesn't allow me 5 ETW) so there's likely a Chain of Vapor in the sb.

[Bryant Cook]

Pulverize is the most efficient way of dealing with any number of chalices*, trinispheres, or spheres. More efficient than Shattering Spree, Meltdown, H.Recall. 100%. All the time.*

*obviously lackluster vs chalice @ 6, but let's be realistic. This situation is only a karma punishment resulting from very lucky aggro loam players who want to repay you for Grapeshotting them the last 15 times you played.

I don't need to side out my protection because Therapy and Duress aren't bad when I don't want Karakas/Massacre. Silence is pretty bad, but I wouldn't play that card anyway.

3 Karakas ensures that I actually draw one in the relevant matchups. The Massacre gets sided in along with Karakas, but it's more efficient at killing Thalia or Canonist than Grapeshot, and that extra efficiences often matters vs their clock. Importantly, Karakas is a better answer to Teeg or Thalia than any other spot removal due to being unaffected by Mother of Runes and the hatebears themselves.

The sideboard for the list I posted is actually off by a card (The DCI sadly doesn't allow me 5 ETW) so there's likely a Chain of Vapor in the sb.

I fail to see how Pulverize is better than Spree against Trinisphere. Either way youre paying three mana to blow up artifacts you might as well not lose two lands.

I guess you don't need to swap since you're playing a different (In my opinion worse) protection spell main deck. The third Karakas and Massacre should be more bounce spells. I still can't believe you're not running Xantids.

[KevinTrudeau]

SB I was testing out last night with Bryant's manabase (though cutting a fetch or two for City of Brass #3-4 as Final Fortune suggested certainly isn't out of the question), 4 Silence/3 Thoughtseize protection split, and the fourth Probe in place of the fourth Rite of Flame (though the SB Infernal Tutor config Final Fortune suggested that would cleanly allow for a fourth Probe, basically starting game one as a lot of postboard games are, is certainly intriguing):

Core 8:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Silent Departure (could be Grapeshot/Deathmark)
1 Shattering Spree
1 Thoughtseize (could be Duress)
The rest:
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

If I come to the conclusion that 4 Swarm is overkill (it probably is), change the Thoughtseize to Duress, and change the fourth Swarm to a bounce spell or something like Karakas or Slaughter Pact; basically, the fourth Swarm is the free slot. However, if one chooses not to replace Thoughtseize with the superior Duress, there's just an awesome free slot.

SB configs were:

vs. Maverick: -4 Silence, +1 Thoughtseize (if running Duress and 3 Swarm, +1 free slot), +1 Inquisition of Kozilek, +2 Empty the Warrens

vs. Canadian Threshold: -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Ponder, and either -1 Gitaxian Probe or -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 Inquisition of Kozilek, +2 Empty the Warrens

vs. Reanimator/Sneak Attack: -4 Silence, -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Ponder/Probe/IT, +4 Xantid Swarm, +1 Inquisition of Kozilek, +1 Thoughtseize

Toyed with the idea of bringing in the ToA vs. UW decks, by either putting a second one in the board as the French Doomsday list (there's a German list; why not call lejay's the French list?) does or just swapping out an IT; still haven't come to a conclusive board plan for that matchup.

Stop ripping on Silence, ya hear?! It's not bad. What is bad, though, or at least a lot worse, is playing Diminishing Returns without Silence. Y'all with UBr lists could probably just cut Returns, as a lot of its applications would be gone without a Chant.

[Bryant Cook]

Less than four Rite of Flame is ridiculous. Don't do it.

[KevinTrudeau]

Less than four Rite of Flame is ridiculous. Don't do it.

You're probably right. I'm still just testing the ins and outs of various configurations, and since, after Chrome Mox, I consider Rite of Flame to be the worst card in the deck, I figured that would be the first one I'd try cutting after the fourth Mox. Running just three Probe and leaving Rite alone could certainly be correct.

[j_rb]

Running just three Probe and leaving Rite alone could certainly be correct.

If you really want 4 probes, cut a burning wish. I promise you won't miss it. You won't be able to tell the difference between 3 and 4 wishes anyways, and the deck will still be as consistent.

[Final Fortune]

Don't SB a Rite of Flame, you'll never Burning Wish for it and you want to have as high of a probability as possible to open, draw or cantrip into multiples. I actually think Gitaxian Probe makes Rite of Flame stronger, because the deck is essentially -4x cards between your first and second Rite of Flame. Likewise I think it makes 4xChrome Mox weaker, because the chances of drawing the second Chrome Mox are higher and that's why it's logical to cut a Chrome Mox, which is the worse card in the deck, for a Gitaxian Probe and illogical to cut a Rite of Flame for it.

As far as SBing an Infernal Tutor for the 4th Gitaxian Probe, I'm not certain whether or not it is or it isn't the right decsion, but if you do want to play the 4th Gitaxian Probe then it's either going to come down to Infernal Tutor or Ponder. And 3 Gitaxian Probe is obviously perfectly fine, I think I pretty much agree with where Bryant is taking the deck, altho' I think i prefer more Chant effects in the board to Xantid Swarms because I'm more worried about seeing RUG than Sneak/Show and Reanimator personally.

I completely disagree with cutting Burning Wish.

[thefringthing]

Some thoughts based on the last couple pages of discussion:

Cutting Chrome Mox is sweet. Hands with two are auto-mulligans.
Four Probes is too many. They screw up mulligans.
I like Ill-Gotten Gains better than Past in Flames, but having no Tendrils maindeck hurts Gains a lot. Then again, I almost never have the opportunity to use Past in Flames. I think it makes more sense in ANT than in TES.
If I didn't think Silence was important, I'd play ANT. I've tried to make an all fetch/dual/basic manabase work with four colours and you just can't do it. It would be the holy grail of lists to have a four colour storm deck with stable mana. I don't think cutting Silence is the answer.
I haven't tried Karakas at all. It seems interesting, but I think Ethersworn Canonist is real.
Having an Infernal Tutor in the sideboard is good only in decks with Cabal Ritual. Those lines need a lot more mana than this deck is designed to generate, especially if you don't have a Tendrils maindeck.

[Bryant Cook]

I played T.E.S. at a local tonight, went undefeated. The list was solid.

• As of right now I only own one Karakas so the Ill-Gotten Gains was still in my sideboard. Never used it though.
• I played against blue decks every round.
• Past in Flames was used twice.
• No deck had an answer to 10+ goblins.
• Silence was good.

[entreri_fans]

Hi, I am the man playing ANT for some time, and I apologize if this question is noobish.

I find that currently, TES players tend to run only 1 Ad Nauseam main deck instead of 2, like they always did in the past.

But if so(only 1 AdN main deck),you still run 4 chrome mox??

Because in my ANT list, I run 2 chrome mox, but still find it's awful sometimes that I will draw double mox in my opening hand and need mulligan.

I awalys thought "4 chrome mox" is the good decision only if you are so Ad Nauseam-Dependent and really need 2 Ad Nauseam in you deck.


Am I wrong?

[Bryant Cook]

Hi, I am the man playing ANT for some time, and I apologize if this question is noobish.

I find that currently, TES players tend to run only 1 Ad Nauseam main deck instead of 2, like they always did in the past.

But if so(only 1 AdN main deck),you still run 4 chrome mox??

Because in my ANT list, I run 2 chrome mox, but still find it's awful sometimes that I will draw double mox in my opening hand and need mulligan.

I awalys thought "4 chrome mox" is the good decision only if you are so Ad Nauseam-Dependent and really need 2 Ad Nauseam in you deck.


Am I wrong?

The current list only plays three. It's still in a testing phase so I haven't made changes to the opening post.

1 Ad Nauseam in the deck doesn't make it any less of an Ad Nauseam deck, it just makes it less likely to die to your own spell.

[Tombstalker]

The current list only plays three. It's still in a testing phase so I haven't made changes to the opening post.

1 Ad Nauseam in the deck doesn't make it any less of an Ad Nauseam deck, it just makes it less likely to die to your own spell.
This is true. A second ad naus doesnt increase your chances of drawing it significantly in comparison with the chances of flipping the 2nd one off the first. Not worth it IMO unless you play UB ANT. I also question the need for more than 2 mox though. Obviously bryant is the expert with this deck though.

Recently ive taken pages from both TES and ANT for a 3 colored list with no maindeck PiF/IGG but 1 each of EtW and tendrils main and im loving it. You guys here are really onto something with EtW main and alongside tendrils main the deck can grind while still being explosive as hell. I think probe + EtW has largely made alternate engines obsolete, at least for the time being. Still worthwhile to have 1, maybe 2 in the board for corner cases though.

[beebles]

Eh I got crushed at the open. I went 3-1 the night before at a mini tourney (my first tournamennt ever with the deck) which gave me a false sense of security. I actually beat countertop which had me feeling like a boss, only losing to Maverick when I panicked mid combo when I duressed him and saw a Stoneforge mystic which made me realize 12 goblins probably woudn't even kill him so I just diminished returned for garbage and died. Whoops.

In the open I played against RUG made 14 goblins on turn 3 and still lost because he had two flipped delvers and a hand full of burn uggh. Game 2 he had stifle, Rough/tumble 2 forces and a spell pierce in his hand when I duressed him. Yippee. Despite all that I still went off after I hit him with 2 more discard spells and then died when my ad nauseam failed to yield me any Silences so I couldn't play around stifle and then died.

The next round I lost two the most horrifying deck ever--a veteran explorer bug deck which had both therapies and Force of Wills. Uggh. I think I had 2 cards in my hand on turn 2. Horay for getting therapied over and over and over gain. Next game I went for 10 goblins on the play and got my burning wish forced. Ugghhh.

I then beat the crap out of a goblin player to rebuilt my shattered self esteem. Oh well I will keep at it and get better. I think the deck really is strong if you don't run into a buzzsaw of hate like I did.

I did really like the Ill gotten gains and beat the goblin players by boarding it into the main a plan which really seemed strong. I cut past in flames after the 4 round tourney because I can't figure out why you would ever want it. I boarded out 1 mox almost every round but I think any more than than that you might have trouble going off when you ad nauseam. You need moxes and petals to cast those rituals man. This was my final list.

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Silence
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils

4 Gemstone
2 City
4 Fetch
2 Sea
1 Volcanic

SB
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 Grapeshot
1 Karakas
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Deathmark
1 Shattering Spree
1 Ill gotten gains
2 Inqisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diminishing Returns

[Final Fortune]

Anybody have any thoughts on whether or not it's worth cutting the 4th Ponder for the 4th Gitaxian Probe at all? I've had pretty mixed results myself, as Ponder makes so many hands more keepable than Gitaxian Probe does.

As far as the SB, I don't think you really need Ill Gotten Gains, Past in Flames or Grape Shot, I've been winning almost all of my games with either Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns reliably, altho' I think Sneak/Shows move to cards like Overmaster and Defense Grid instead of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm plays a really huge roll in the matter.

I'm pretty sure Grape Shot is just kind of a wasted slot in the SB, it was ok when Gaddok Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist were the hate bears of choice, but now with Thalia it feels pretty much impossible to Burning Wish for 3, play a card for Storm (minimum of 1) and Grape Shot for 3.

Another SB slot I don't think really makes any sense is Death Mark, every creature we need to kill with Death Mark we can kill with Chain Lightning as well, and the 3 damage may actually come in handy. I've been thinking a lot about whether or not it'd be better to SB multiple Chain Lightning the same way some people SB multiple Death Marks, just because it's a more functional card that can contribute to killing your opponent while not being dead vs aggro when they don't draw their hate bears. I guess Death Mark isn't technically dead either when they don't draw their hate bears, but it's better to be able to throw 3 damage to the opponent's head as an additional option than just killing a creature. I also think Chain Lightning being red could be pretty significant, just because if we cast Burning Wish then we know we already have access to that color.

My SB is something like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Chain Lightning
1 Shattering Spree
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm

and I feel like I have a ton of space to mess around with extras.

[Matt]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I've only used Grapeshot once in the 6+ months I've been playing T.E.S. (EtW would have been enough anyway). I'm going to test a Chant or something to deal with blue in that slot...

[Dark Ritual]

Played in a local a few days ago, and scrubbed out hard. Got one win against GBW goodstuff, but that matchup is easy. Lost to lands packing thalia postboard along with thorn of amethyst and of course raw drawing triple waste without any loam to speak of. The match was incredibly close, however he landed the thalia after I tutored for ad nauseam and I had exactly 5 mana in play. Drew a land off the top, he beat me down to 10 though with factory and thalia. I EoT'ed ad nauseamed, not finding a chain of vapor or e. truth but I did find burning wish. However, my only out to thalia in my wishboard was a grapeshot. 6 mana to answer thalia was too much and I was at 1 life so I died to factory. Game 1 I regretted my decision to not play past in flames in my board, as he was at virtually 30 life due to zuran orb + 5 lands in play and I couldn't generate enough storm to win and ad nauseam wasn't an option as he locked me out a long time ago and I didn't draw an IMS for quite awhile, allowing him to beat with creeping tar pit for a lot. Also drew the 1 of ad nauseam when I was locked out, and proceeded to draw lots of LED's to go with the infernal tutor in my hand. Also lost to canadian thresh, game 1 I had 8 storm after resolving burning wish however my opponent was at 19. I went for d. returns since I was at 9 life and he had a flipped delver so any topdecked bolt wins the race for him. D. returns floating UBR failed and he managed to draw force, pierce, blue card which was enough to stop me.

Deathmark kills Iona. Chain lightning does not. Also, the copy ability of chain lightning can be relevant sometimes. As for burning people out with the card, we have a card for that. It's called grapeshot.

[Tombstalker]

I wouldnt consider cutting ponders for anything really. One less chrome mox otoh would rarely make any impact, at least not one thats measurable and mox in multiples usually sucks.

For alternatives to deathmark ive been pretty happy with silent departure. It hits hatebears and iona since my opponents almost always name black and iona in hand is better than in grave.

I agree chain lightning is worse than grapeshot since shot doubles as an alternate wincon and removal, not that I use grapeshot either. Personally ive just gone with 4 dread of night and havent looked back since. I tried all the flashy broad application cards but I prefer these especially since 2 is game.

[metalhead]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I've only used Grapeshot once in the 6+ months I've been playing T.E.S. (EtW would have been enough anyway). I'm going to test a Chant or something to deal with blue in that slot...

Didn't I grapeshot you in St.Louis? Ok.. So its because I punted. But i still cast Grapeshot twice that day.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Didn't I grapeshot you in St.Louis? Ok.. So its because I punted. But i still cast Grapeshot twice that day.

TES wouldn't be viable without Grapeshot.

[Bryant Cook]

I wouldnt consider cutting ponders for anything really. One less chrome mox otoh would rarely make any impact, at least not one thats measurable and mox in multiples usually sucks.

For alternatives to deathmark ive been pretty happy with silent departure. It hits hatebears and iona since my opponents almost always name black and iona in hand is better than in grave.

I agree chain lightning is worse than grapeshot since shot doubles as an alternate wincon and removal, not that I use grapeshot either. Personally ive just gone with 4 dread of night and havent looked back since. I tried all the flashy broad application cards but I prefer these especially since 2 is game.

Karakas > Both Deathmark and Silent Depature.

Grapeshot > All.

[Final Fortune]

Karakas > Both Deathmark and Silent Depature.

Grapeshot > All.

How often can you actually removal a Thalia with a Grape Shot, and how often are you using Grape Shot for anything other than show boating?

I don't know if you can say Karakas is necessarily better than removal, it may be right now, but I'd be extremely concerned that you're going to see Ethersworn Cannonist reapear in the near future with all of our overly specific Thalia hate.

[Bryant Cook]

How often can you actually removal a Thalia with a Grape Shot, and how often are you using Grape Shot for anything other than show boating?

I don't know if you can say Karakas is necessarily better than removal, it may be right now, but I'd be extremely concerned that you're going to see Ethersworn Cannonist reapear in the near future with all of our overly specific Thalia hate.

I've killed Thalia plenty of times with Grapeshot. Postboard there's also Karakas, Inquisitions, and Echoing Truths to deal with Thalia/Teeg/Cannonist.

[thefringthing]

Metagame at my store is RUG/UG/UR Delver decks, fatties (Sneak Show, sometimes Hypergenesis/Omniscience/Reanimator), MUD, Merfolk, and Burn. No Maverick.

I'm going to try out the Empty the Warrens, 3 Chrome Mox maindeck with the following sideboard tonight:

2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree

[joemauer]

Metagame at my store is RUG/UG/UR Delver decks, fatties (Sneak Show, sometimes Hypergenesis/Omniscience/Reanimator), MUD, Merfolk, and Burn. No Maverick.

I'm going to try out the Empty the Warrens, 3 Chrome Mox maindeck with the following sideboard tonight:

2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree

Metagame consists of a bunch of Delver decks and you are going to cut Past in Flames? Oh noes!

[thefringthing]

I wouldn't say it's a bunch of them. Either way, I realized recently that I just never cast the card.

EDIT: Went 2-1 and made my money back. I ended up playing a fourteenth land. Lost to Reanimator, beat UB Stiflenought and Affinity. The fourteenth land was good versus multiple Wastelands. Two Gitaxian Probes seemed like plenty, but I may have just been drawing them a lot. Maindeck Empty was irrelevant. Sideboard in/out numbers were a bit awkward.

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant:
@Bahamut:
@Emidiln:

Finally I went with no therapys, I forgot this is TES, I mean, you can have thereapy and you can simply do not know what the player has in hand and be simply a dead card, that possibility makes it not playable in base, because, you need information to be plenty of effective. chant or silence or duress or t.seize simply need to be countered.

regarding the changes to the initial list from Bryant .Post:
+1 Gitaxian = -1 C.Mox
Tendrils > E.Warrens.

Questions:
Have you tested 12 lands?
I would need to keep 4 moxen, so -1 land +1 moxen could be ok?
I've been trying 12 lands 4 moxen 4 gitaxian no tendrils no Empty main 1 A.N., and seems the correct numbers.
Have you tested Karakas in side? does it really worth it?

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant:
@Bahamut:
@Emidiln:

Finally I went with no therapys, I forgot this is TES, I mean, you can have thereapy and you can simply do not know what the player has in hand and be simply a dead card, that possibility makes it not playable in base, because, you need information to be plenty of effective. chant or silence or duress or t.seize simply need to be countered.

regarding the changes to the initial list from Bryant .Post:
+1 Gitaxian = -1 C.Mox
Tendrils > E.Warrens.

Questions:
Have you tested 12 lands?
I would need to keep 4 moxen, so -1 land +1 moxen could be ok?
I've been trying 12 lands 4 moxen 4 gitaxian no tendrils no Empty main 1 A.N., and seems the correct numbers.
Have you tested Karakas in side? does it really worth it?

No win-condition main is awful. The deck literally loses to counterspell on Burning Wish, Surgical Extraction. Which is in the post popular deck in the format - RUG Delver/Canadian Threshold. Not to mention half of the beauty of Probes is to increase the power of Empty the Warrens which you're no longer even doing.

I still only have the one Karakas but I did do testing with a proxied second against Maverick, it was great. I've yet to do Sneak Show/Reanimator.

[Tombstalker]

I love karakas but I currently only own 1 so ive been using gilded drake in its place (my wife often misers my/her karakas). Obviously karakas has the advantage against legendary hate bears and being free/uncounterable. Regarding nasty wincons like emrakul, griselbrand and so on though drake is better than I expected. Hatebears aside stealing a wincon is usually just plain better then bouncing one although sometimes its negligible if we can win anyway.

Regarding reanimator, what ive seen is that reanimator players (and SnS, D&T maybe more decks) have started packing pithing needles and their own maindeck karakas', similar to what people were doing with jitte awhile back "i just play jitte to answer other jittes". Hell it seems everyone and their fucking dog is buying these things up lately. I purchased 2 karakas years ago for 5 bucks and gave 1 to a friend and now I really regret it.

Otoh drake Stealing iona and killing them with her while shutting off all their black spells is sick and unexpected for the most part. GD is also good against random decks like MUD when they have just dropped a blightsteel colossus (non hasted) or wurmcoil engine etc. I know this deck isnt all that common but going off through prison effects is pretty hard and ive found GD can instead just steal one of their bombs and beat them down with it. I stole a metalworker the other day to prevent his hand from exploding while I just won.

[Pelikanudo]

No win-condition main is awful. The deck literally loses to counterspell on Burning Wish, Surgical Extraction. Which is in the post popular deck in the format - RUG Delver/Canadian Threshold. Not to mention half of the beauty of Probes is to increase the power of Empty the Warrens which you're no longer even doing.

I still only have the one Karakas but I did do testing with a proxied second against Maverick, it was great. I've yet to do Sneak Show/Reanimator.

The deck will not loose to counterspell -> B.Which if previously you have casted A.N. OR an effective Protection Spell.

The deck will loose to Surgical on Burning Wish, but only on 2nd Games, and yes, that is the only reason , because you will need to put a 2nd Tendrils in Side, which again is lost slot.

Therefore I can agree.
So 13 lands, 3 gitaxian, 3 moxen ritgh?
regarding the Side, please could you let me know yours?
I really do not see karakas as way to deal with Reaminator or Sneak.... and related to canonists or gaddocks or thalias, karakas is too much specific. I'd say is a meta choice.
A resoved Griselbrand will be always game UNLESS you have Xantid Swarn.

And definately NO 12 lands ritgh?

[Bryant Cook]

I love karakas but I currently only own 1 so ive been using gilded drake in its place (my wife often misers my/her karakas). Obviously karakas has the advantage against legendary hate bears and being free/uncounterable. Regarding nasty wincons like emrakul, griselbrand and so on though drake is better than I expected. Hatebears aside stealing a wincon is usually just plain better then bouncing one although sometimes its negligible if we can win anyway.

Regarding reanimator, what ive seen is that reanimator players (and SnS, D&T maybe more decks) have started packing pithing needles and their own maindeck karakas', similar to what people were doing with jitte awhile back "i just play jitte to answer other jittes". Hell it seems everyone and their fucking dog is buying these things up lately. I purchased 2 karakas years ago for 5 bucks and gave 1 to a friend and now I really regret it.

Otoh drake Stealing iona and killing them with her while shutting off all their black spells is sick and unexpected for the most part. GD is also good against random decks like MUD when they have just dropped a blightsteel colossus (non hasted) or wurmcoil engine etc. I know this deck isnt all that common but going off through prison effects is pretty hard and ive found GD can instead just steal one of their bombs and beat them down with it. I stole a metalworker the other day to prevent his hand from exploding while I just won.

Drake is too narrow, it doesn't deal with what that slot is for and that's hatebears. The chances are if they've resolved Show and Tell they're putting Griselbrand into play against us. Good luck resolving anything crucial now... This is why I'm opting for the double Karakas plan.

Gaining control of a Thalia or Gaddock Teeg would be the last thing I'd ever want. Not that you'd side it in against Maverick anyway. I believe that Maverick's numbers are higher than the big fatty decks and that slot should probably be a Deathmark or Silent Departure if not the second Karakas.


The deck will not loose to counterspell -> B.Which if previously you have casted A.N. OR an effective Protection Spell.

The deck will loose to Surgical on Burning Wish, but only on 2nd Games, and yes, that is the only reason , because you will need to put a 2nd Tendrils in Side, which again is lost slot.

Therefore I can agree.
So 13 lands, 3 gitaxian, 3 moxen ritgh?
regarding the Side, please could you let me know yours?
I really do not see karakas as way to deal with Reaminator or Sneak.... and related to canonists or gaddocks or thalias, karakas is too much specific. I'd say is a meta choice.
A resoved Griselbrand will be always game UNLESS you have Xantid Swarn.

And definately NO 12 lands ritgh?

Burning Wish isn't just a win condition. It's a tool to get around hate as well. You won't always be casting Burning Wish to get something with storm. Sometimes it finds answers to problematic situations. When these situations happen you don't want to be forced to waste a Silence because your deck is built poorly. Just run a main deck win condition, preferably an Empty the Warrens.

Yes, I'm on 13 lands with 3 Gitaxian Probes and 3 Chrome Mox. My decklist is within the last few pages, just dig. Karakas is a great answer to Thalia, Teeg, Emrakul and at times Griselbrand. It won't always be perfect but will certainly be better than straight up losing to it. Getting the card off the table is the first step in winning.

[joemauer]

I agree that Karakas is no good versus Sneak n Show.
If Grizzlebrand comes in, the Sneak n Show player will load up on countermagic with their fourteen cards. Karakas will just slow the bleeding. Sneak Attack will eventually come shortly thereafter and Karakas will no longer be of much use. Sure it will stop Emrakul but since when has he been a problem? Affecting the board on turn three at the earliest.

Against Sneak n Show we want to be the combo deck not the control deck. Karakas forces us into the control role.

As for Karakas against Reanimator, I haven't done sufficient testing against that one either to know but on paper Karakas seems more useful here than against Sneak n Show.

[Bahamuth]

While I agree that there should be an EtW mainboard, the fact that you lose to Extraction on Wish is even less relevant than being able to ToA for 20 with the mainboard ToA.

[Tombstalker]

Drake is too narrow, it doesn't deal with what that slot is for and that's hatebears. The chances are if they've resolved Show and Tell they're putting Griselbrand into play against us. Good luck resolving anything crucial now... This is why I'm opting for the double Karakas plan.
Your reasoning on griselbrand makes sense and fair enough on the slot being primarily for hatebears because against these its usually golden, especially with IoK vs multiple bears.
As for sneak and show and reanimator, karakas is not that good anymore. both have started packing hate for the other and the mirror in the form of pithing needles and their own pair of karakas main giving 5 ways to stop ours, plus sneak attack with R open negates karakas. In these specific but pretty common instances gilded drake is better, granted though that it must first resolve (not always easy -> sometimes impossible vs. GB) or be dropped in off show and tell. Anyway I like both cards and ill likely run a mix of both from time to time.

[Pelikanudo]

Well This is what I'm definately going to test:
I see the numbers as perfect, 12 lands 4 moxen 4 gitaxian no win cond main.

I agree with bahamut, tendrils main is useless, and yes , b.wish can be extirparted, I'll expect someday this happens to me and in 2nd and 3rd games you'll put in some more dures effects, you can put in Empty from side also... but for sure I won't include 2nd tendrils in side, If I was going to put it as a second copy , I would prefer then to go back to Tendrils Main.


4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam

2 Xantid Swarm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Deathmark
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames

@Bryant:

Regarding the 2 Karakas slots, which cards are out?
I can't see 2 karakas subtituting anything in here...
Maybe -1 D.Mark, -1 IGG?

[Final Fortune]

I think you'll find you want the empty the warrens md, being able to win via land, dark ritual, lion's eye diamond, infernal tutor alone is useful, and if you diminishing returns and remove your ad nauseam from the game then you're going to have no target for infernal tutor left.

I play a kind of "budget" version of tes irl, it's more or less your deck with -1 land for +1 empty the warrens and I've had pretty solid results for it vs. everything but reanimator, rug and u/w miracle with counter balance.

I really don't know why all of you guys are allergic to City of Brass, life really isn't an issue fwiw and not having a permanent mana source to play Silence and Swarm off of is a pain in the ass.

[Bryant Cook]

I think you'll find you want the empty the warrens md, being able to win via land, dark ritual, lion's eye diamond, infernal tutor alone is useful, and if you diminishing returns and remove your ad nauseam from the game then you're going to have no target for infernal tutor left.

I play a kind of "budget" version of tes irl, it's more or less your deck with -1 land for +1 empty the warrens and I've had pretty solid results for it vs. everything but reanimator, rug and u/w miracle with counter balance.

I really don't know why all of you guys are allergic to City of Brass, life really isn't an issue fwiw and not having a permanent mana source to play Silence and Swarm off of is a pain in the ass.

I agree with your sentiments on a main deck empty. But the view on lands not so much, it's not a problem with City of Brass. Its wanting lands without drawbacks paired with fetch lands for shuffle effects for Brainstorm.

[Final Fortune]

I agree with your sentiments on a main deck empty. But the view on lands not so much, it's not a problem with City of Brass. Its wanting lands without drawbacks paired with fetch lands for shuffle effects for Brainstorm.

I guess it's an apples and oranges trade off, making Brainstorm better means making Silence and Xantid Swarm worse. I guess I'd just rather have a more consistent manabase than a few shuffle effects personally, it doesn't seem to make a big difference for Brainstorm unless you're playing an 8+ fetchland manabase fwiw.

I suppose it's up to the end user.

[Mojeh]

@Final Fortune: Could you post your current mana base here, please?

I'm new to this deck, but without the shuffle effects, Brainstorm isn't just a bad cantrip?
Sure it works against discard, but that's pretty much what it does. With 4 fetch lands you have a reasonable chance to make it a Ancestral Recall.

[Final Fortune]

@Final Fortune: Could you post your current mana base here, please?

I'm new to this deck, but without the shuffle effects, Brainstorm isn't just a bad cantrip?
Sure it works against discard, but that's pretty much what it does. With 4 fetch lands you have a reasonable chance to make it a Ancestral Recall.

Brainstorm doesn't work the same way in Storm as it does in aggro-control, because you're not Brainstorming for card quality, i.e. trading lands for business, you're Brainstorming for access to 3 more cards in order to increase your chances of having the right combination of cards to immediately win the game on turn 2. Even without any Fetchlands, you wouldn't replace Brainstorm for Pre-Ordian because Brainstorm is a "worse cantrip," because Brainstorm gives you acces to 3 new cards right now and Ponder and Pre-Ordain only give you access to 1 of 4 (or 3) new cards right now.

This is more or less the list I'm using,

4 Silence
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flames
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Underground Sea

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Death Mark
1 Shattering Spree
4 Dread of Night
4 Xantid Swarm

Unfortunately I don't own Karakas, so Dread of Night is more or less the next best option vs. Thalia. I may go back to 4 Chain of Vapor and 3 Inquisition of Kozilek depending on how the metagame shapes up, but right now Fish is really popular where I'm at.

[Bryant Cook]

Are lists are somewhat the same for the maindeck minus the lands, I have one more and you have a fourth Chrome Mox instead.

Our sideboards are pretty different though. Mainly because I think Dread of Night is terrible.

For those of you who are interested, my list is on the opening post.

[Mojeh]

@Bryant and Final Fortune: How the deck behaves with 13/12 lands and 3/4 moxen?
Don't you suffer too much against Tempo package?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Are lists are somewhat the same for the maindeck minus the lands, I have one more and you have a fourth Chrome Mox instead.

Our sideboards are pretty different though. Mainly because I think Dread of Night is terrible.

For those of you who are interested, my list is on the opening post.

This deck gets cheaper and cheaper to build. Very nice.

[Final Fortune]

Dread of Night does what it does extremely well, kill MoM and Thalia simultaneously while leaving a pre-emtive answer to any other MoMs and Thalias that'd enter play afterwards, altho' I agree it's extremely narrow. I'd probably play Karakas if I owned any, just because Karakas deals with Thalia and Gaddock Teeg with the added benefit of producing mana if and when needed.

Whatever the answer to Thalia is, I just feel as tho' it has to be as mana efficient as possible in order to be effective (Karakas wins hands down) or cheap enough to offset the gains in versatility (Chain of Vapor). I really feel Echoing Truth is horrible, because besides Burning Wish for Shattering Spree I just think we're going to see so many more hate bears than Chalices at 1 in any tournament that paying 1(1U) to remova Thalia is just going to lose us games vs Maverick.

I'm not particularly stuck on the Xantid or Dread of Night SB slots by any means, there's definitely more than one way to address the same problem.

[beez]

My storm is not so epic yet, but I'm working on it! Meanwhile I'm just running a U/R storm. I only mention it here to you guys as there isn't a particular thread for it I see, and I think you might find it interesting I won a small 14 person tourney with it this weekend beating the dreaded U/W Miracle Countertop, as well as as a U/W stoneblade with a lot of counters also, but I fought through them all with a bit of fortunate topdecking on my part and skillful use of anti-blue counters, which they were incredulous I maindecked. But in this meta, who can blame me? And it worked. And when I sided in the other Pyroblasts, they were on their heels. I have some Forked Bolts and another Grapeshot on the side for Maverick, as I have trouble with Thalia and Teeg and need to shoot mom too so she can't protect them. I take my chances with with Reanimate and Sneak and Show (at least I reduce them to Sneak only and can counter their counters). I do realize that I have 62 cards main, but that is because I need all of the sideboard cards I have and need to have 6 good things to put back in main if I'm not playing blue when I side out the blue hate. My philosophy is I can have a few dead cards in a non-blue first match I can brainstorm out of my hand for somethig else, in a matchup that I am probably favored in anyway, than automatically lose the first matchup against heavy blue counterspell of my storms, and have the pressure of winning the last two. Anyway looking forward to being able to build the real Epic Storm sometime soon.

Pyrostorm

3x Empty The Warrens
3x Past in Flames
4x Burning Wish

4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song

4x Brainstorm
4x Preordain
4x Gitixian Probe
4x Peer Through Depths

4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast

18 lands
4x Volcanic Island
4x Scalding tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Mountain
2x Island

Side
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
2x Grapeshot
1x Ponder
2x Pyroblast
4x Forked Bolt
4x Tormad's Crypt

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant and Final Fortune: How the deck behaves with 13/12 lands and 3/4 moxen?
Don't you suffer too much against Tempo package?

My lists have ran 13 lands the past couple of years, but when I originally built the deck contained seven lands. Obviously this was a mistake, the numbers gradually increased over time, but for a period of time the deck ran ten lands with four Simian Spirit Guides. While Gitaxian Probe isn't exactly exile a card from your hand to create a mana it certainly performs a similar enough role - drawing into theoretical mana (Lands/Moxen/Rituals). When the deck stopped aiming for Empty the Warrens is around the same time the thirteenth land was added. The EPIC Storm became much more of an Ad Nauseam deck during that time period. Right now, it's still an "Ad Nauseam" deck by definition but it's plan B is back and costs less. Due to Empty the Warrens costing less than Ad Nauseam, the deck has sped up and doesn't need to consistently hit as many land drops as it previously did without a main deck plan B. TES is currently faster than it has been in past years, while in my opinion, it's most optimal form in ages. Probe is such a huge addition in the blue match-ups it's ridiculous. It certainly takes away a lot of the fear of, "What if he has Force of Will?"

In the tempo match-ups, you ideally won't miss the land drops because the deck should be aiming for the four mana option instead of the five mana choice. Empty the Warrens is terrific against RUG and is easily castable on turn one against them. It doesn't hurt that they don't have an out to it either.

As for the fourth Chrome Mox being gone, it was really only in the deck for game one and then was sided out. It was there for explosiveness, the deck has regained that from Probe.

[Mojeh]

My lists have ran 13 lands the past couple of years, but when I originally built the deck contained seven lands. Obviously this was a mistake, the numbers gradually increased over time, but for a period of time the deck ran ten lands with four Simian Spirit Guides. While Gitaxian Probe isn't exactly exile a card from your hand to create a mana it certainly performs a similar enough role - drawing into theoretical mana (Lands/Moxen/Rituals). When the deck stopped aiming for Empty the Warrens is around the same time the thirteenth land was added. The EPIC Storm became much more of an Ad Nauseam deck during that time period. Right now, it's still an "Ad Nauseam" deck by definition but it's plan B is back and costs less. Due to Empty the Warrens costing less than Ad Nauseam, the deck has sped up and doesn't need to consistently hit as many land drops as it previously did without a main deck plan B. TES is currently faster than it has been in past years, while in my opinion, it's most optimal form in ages. Probe is such a huge addition in the blue match-ups it's ridiculous. It certainly takes away a lot of the fear of, "What if he has Force of Will?"

In the tempo match-ups, you ideally won't miss the land drops because the deck should be aiming for the four mana option instead of the five mana choice. Empty the Warrens is terrific against RUG and is easily castable on turn one against them. It doesn't hurt that they don't have an out to it either.

As for the fourth Chrome Mox being gone, it was really only in the deck for game one's and then was sided out. It was there for explosiveness, the deck has regained that from Probe.

I got it, thank you very much for your explanation.
I noticed the sideboard is pretty tight, is there any flex slots for a 'meta call' ?
I like being prepared for everything, but sometimes you have to dedicate a few more slots to a specific matchup. I play on small stores, so usually I am aware of what's expecting me.

[Pelikanudo]

Well Bryant,

so definately 12 lands, finally same conclusion. Good job.
Regarding Empty, I can say now in the meta can be more effective but could prefer tendrils, anyway, as Ive been DDFT player also, so I'll still test the No Tendrils configuration, including the 4th moxen.

the only change will be -1 Tendrils +1 C.Moxen
But again the moxen now repeats too much with the gitaxian...

100% sure about the changes?
they seem a bit risky.
Testing enough?

[Bryant Cook]

Well Bryant,

so definately 12 lands, finally same conclusion. Good job.
Regarding Empty, I can say now in the meta can be more effective but could prefer tendrils, anyway, as Ive been DDFT player also, so I'll still test the No Tendrils configuration, including the 4th moxen.

the only change will be -1 Tendrils +1 C.Moxen
But again the moxen now repeats too much with the gitaxian...

100% sure about the changes?
they seem a bit risky.
Testing enough?

I like to test my changes throughly before switching the numbers for the public. I can't take everyone's word for it. Twelve lands proved to be fine for now. The number may go back up at a later date.

Regarding your next sentence. I can't tell what you're saying, I understand that there's a language barrier. Where are you subtracting a Tendrils from? The sideboard?

[joemauer]

@Bryant: Since you are running three fetches now, have you considered swapping a sea for a city of brass?

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant: Since you are running three fetches now, have you considered swapping a sea for a city of brass?

No. I don't see a single reason why I'd want to do that.

[joemauer]

No. I don't see a single reason why I'd want to do that.

City of Brass makes five colors and Underground Sea makes two colors.

Since you have less fetches then you don't run into the I have no lands to fetch problem with two duals.

[Bryant Cook]

City of Brass makes five colors and Underground Sea makes two colors.

Since you have less fetches then you don't run into the I have no lands to fetch problem with two duals.

It's the exact opposite problem. More actual lands, the more there are to fetch.

[Final Fortune]

I like to test my changes throughly before switching the numbers for the public. I can't take everyone's word for it. Twelve lands proved to be fine for now. The number may go back up at a later date.

Regarding your next sentence. I can't tell what you're saying, I understand that there's a language barrier. Where are you subtracting a Tendrils from? The sideboard?

I think he means he's going to subract the kill condition from your list (Empty the Warrens is the Tendrils of Agony slot) and replace it with the 4th Chrome Mox.

Regarding that issue, I can't understand the reasoning for not wanting to play with Empty the Warrens MD, because it's arguably better than Ad Nauseam vs Merfolk and RUG for 1 mana less.

@Bryant

What do you think of Cabal Therapy in the SB over Duress or Thought Seize? For me it's been a virtual Silence in a lot of match ups where the game goes long enough for the opponent to hold multiples of a single counter, and with 4 Gitaxian Probe and 3 Duress you pretty much always know when you either have to wish for disruption or when you can wish for the win.

Have you had time to test the 3 SB Empty the Warrens for the Merfolk and RUG match ups? I think my Sneak/Show match up is pretty winnable thanks to them playing stuff like Misdirection and Overmaster, and even tho' Xantid Swarm does provide an edge vs. Reanimator I think it's better to "sac" that match up in order to gain as much ground vs the popular aggro-control decks as possible.

I was thinking of playing something like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Shattering Spree
4 Death Mark
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

[Pelikanudo]

I like to test my changes throughly before switching the numbers for the public. I can't take everyone's word for it. Twelve lands proved to be fine for now. The number may go back up at a later date.

Regarding your next sentence. I can't tell what you're saying, I understand that there's a language barrier. Where are you subtracting a Tendrils from? The sideboard?

Well,
Gitaxian simply thins the deck, so you'll find the cards more often than not, therefore you'll need to play less lands and maybe less chrome moxen, because you don't want to see 2 in hand and with 4 gitaxian you're likely to find them again more often than not.
This is a point.
The fact is that we've decreased the number of lands and moxen because of including 4 gitaxian, but the question is can parity handle this? what if gitaxian is countered?
This is other Point.
The parity with the number of threats - 10 now including Tendrils OR Empty seems correct, but I've never included/considered Empty OR Tendrils as a Threat, as you can say, now with Gitaxian you can, but you'll need to have them in hand or you'll simply prefer to I.T -> A.N, what happens next doesn't mind.
Apart, as DDFT player, I've found that Tendrils main is absolutly not neccesary, apart from the piles that includes Tendrils (one can be neccesary to avoid quasalys f.e.), if we extrapolate this to TES, it's absurd, as the only real purpose about Tendrils is to get it from I.T beeing casted before A.N. (I don't mention if you have Tendrils in hand which is only good vs control).
And the last Point,
I don't consider Empty warrens worth main, my meta is plagued by Miracles, which they're even playing E.E. main (logical inclusion if you consider that goblins and merfolks are gaining power), apart from those Terminus.

So if you reduce the chances, they become moreless:
- I.T. -> A.N. and -1 Mana
- I.T. -> Tendrils + 9 Storm before
- Tendrils in hand + 9 Storm (less often)
- I recognice No Tendrils main does not get better IGG, D.Returns, PiF.

So definately No Tendrils Main and 4th moxen.
And as Stratagey To Side:
- I don't expect to be extirped B.Wish - I'd put in 2nd games more dures effects. I really would like to see how many times people extirpate my b.Wishes.
- If I would expect to be extirped - this can be by: 3shold, pox(hymn, duress) and countertop as main threats - I'm considering to play 2 Empty in side, so that in these occasions I can side 1, except for the countertop variants, on which we are focused on other problems.

As a note regarding the Strategies To Side In The Post:
- I don't remember any occasion on which I left less than 3 moxen main.
- Regarding to Gitaxian, this should be a card that should not be sided out so much, the concept has changed a litle, with 12 lands 3 moxen and sometimes 2, you NEED at least 3 gitaxian, unless you count karakas on those scenarios. So as conclusion/question, can be considered to side out ponder instead of gitaxian? - contradictory.

Still I'm testing this and as I don't have time, this is theory, so I always prefer demonstrations as yours.

[Bryant Cook]

What do you think of Cabal Therapy in the SB over Duress or Thought Seize? For me it's been a virtual Silence in a lot of match ups where the game goes long enough for the opponent to hold multiples of a single counter, and with 4 Gitaxian Probe and 3 Duress you pretty much always know when you either have to wish for disruption or when you can wish for the win.

Have you had time to test the 3 SB Empty the Warrens for the Merfolk and RUG match ups? I think my Sneak/Show match up is pretty winnable thanks to them playing stuff like Misdirection and Overmaster, and even tho' Xantid Swarm does provide an edge vs. Reanimator I think it's better to "sac" that match up in order to gain as much ground vs the popular aggro-control decks as possible.

I was thinking of playing something like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Shattering Spree
4 Death Mark
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

I'm not a fan at all of a Cabal Therapy over an Inquisition of Kozilek. If it were to replace anything it would be making the Thoughtseize leave due to the lifeloss that it causes. This would have to be tested quite a bit. In General I'm not a fan of Therapy but then again Im not a big fan of Thoughtseize either so I could see one replacing the other.

I have tested multiple Empty the Warrens in the sideboard. While this is a viable option, it's an option that really hinders the deck. With siding in two additional Warrens you're pretty much forced to sideboard out Ad Nauseam since it becomes terrible with multiple Emptys in the deck. At this point the deck is very linear. One option is to side a single additional Warrens instead of two. This way Ad Nauseam won't kill you consistently.

The problems with this game plan is that both decks can have outs. There are Merfolk and RUG players who still for some reason play Stifle and then there are others that play Rough/Tumble and Echoing Truth. Then on top of Merfolk having Echoing Truth sometimes they can actually just create enough blockers sometimes. This usually means a smaller Warrens for 8-10.

Lastly, that's a lot of Deathmark in your sideboard.


Well,
Gitaxian simply thins the deck, so you'll find the cards more often than not, therefore you'll need to play less lands and maybe less chrome moxen, because you don't want to see 2 in hand and with 4 gitaxian you're likely to find them again more often than not.
This is a point.
The fact is that we've decreased the number of lands and moxen because of including 4 gitaxian, but the question is can parity handle this? what if gitaxian is countered?
This is other Point.
The parity with the number of threats - 10 now including Tendrils OR Empty seems correct, but I've never included/considered Empty OR Tendrils as a Threat, as you can say, now with Gitaxian you can, but you'll need to have them in hand or you'll simply prefer to I.T -> A.N, what happens next doesn't mind.
Apart, as DDFT player, I've found that Tendrils main is absolutly not neccesary, apart from the piles that includes Tendrils (one can be neccesary to avoid quasalys f.e.), if we extrapolate this to TES, it's absurd, as the only real purpose about Tendrils is to get it from I.T beeing casted before A.N. (I don't mention if you have Tendrils in hand which is only good vs control).
And the last Point,
I don't consider Empty warrens worth main, my meta is plagued by Miracles, which they're even playing E.E. main (logical inclusion if you consider that goblins and merfolks are gaining power), apart from those Terminus.

So if you reduce the chances, they become moreless:
- I.T. -> A.N. and -1 Mana
- I.T. -> Tendrils + 9 Storm before
- Tendrils in hand + 9 Storm (less often)
- I recognice No Tendrils main does not get better IGG, D.Returns, PiF.

So definately No Tendrils Main and 4th moxen.
And as Stratagey To Side:
- I don't expect to be extirped B.Wish - I'd put in 2nd games more dures effects. I really would like to see how many times people extirpate my b.Wishes.
- If I would expect to be extirped - this can be by: 3shold, pox(hymn, duress) and countertop as main threats - I'm considering to play 2 Empty in side, so that in these occasions I can side 1, except for the countertop variants, on which we are focused on other problems.

As a note regarding the Strategies To Side In The Post:
- I don't remember any occasion on which I left less than 3 moxen main.
- Regarding to Gitaxian, this should be a card that should not be sided out so much, the concept has changed a litle, with 12 lands 3 moxen and sometimes 2, you NEED at least 3 gitaxian, unless you count karakas on those scenarios. So as conclusion/question, can be considered to side out ponder instead of gitaxian? - contradictory.

Still I'm testing this and as I don't have time, this is theory, so I always prefer demonstrations as yours.

Your initial points were just reiterating things I've previously stated. Empty or Tendrils I hand are situational threats but can often be dead cards. TES and those piles of Doomsday decks that have never put up results are different. Not playing a win condition will cost you games. Every win now costs you at least an additional two mana in a format swarming with taxing counter spells such as Daze and Spell Pierce.

If Warrens isn't good because of your Metagame run a Tendrils but something needs to be in there. But at this point do whatever you want because I'm tired of repeating myself.

As for the sideboarding guide. It's a loose strategy guide. It won't work perfectly but for the most part players should follow those general instructions. Gitaxian Probe is still one of the worst cards in the deck and the most easily sided out. In the matchups where it's being brought in its for the slower matchups where additional protection is better. Sideboarding out Ponder so that you can keep in Probes will only hurt the consistency of the deck.

[Bahamuth]

I have tested multiple Empty the Warrens in the sideboard. While this is a viable option, it's an option that really hinders the deck. With siding in two additional Warrens you're pretty much forced to sideboard out Ad Nauseam since it becomes terrible with multiple Emptys in the deck. At this point the deck is very linear. One option is to side a single additional Warrens instead of two. This way Ad Nauseam won't kill you consistently.

May I remind you that we were running versions of TES with mainboard ToA and IGG, and even multiple SSGs AND multiple Ad Nauseams when Ad Nauseam was just printed. Adding 2 4cc spells to your deck does not instantly invalidate AdN, especially because drawing into EtW with AdN is usually enough to win the game once you hit 4 mana.


The problems with this game plan is that both decks can have outs. There are Merfolk and RUG players who still for some reason play Stifle

I'm so happy people actually belive that Stifle is bad now.


and then there are others that play Rough/Tumble and Echoing Truth.

Usually 2. I don't care enough about that.



Those piles of Doomsday decks that have never put up results.

You know just as well that the only reason for this is that no one plays the deck (well).


Every win now costs you at least an additional two mana in a format swarming with taxing counter spells such as Daze and Spell Pierce.

Except if you board in EtW and your opponent doesn't know your exact hand somehow.

[Bryant Cook]

May I remind you that we were running versions of TES with mainboard ToA and IGG, and even multiple SSGs AND multiple Ad Nauseams when Ad Nauseam was just printed. Adding 2 4cc spells to your deck does not instantly invalidate AdN, especially because drawing into EtW with AdN is usually enough to win the game once you hit 4 mana.

I'm so happy people actually belive that Stifle is bad now.

Usually 2. I don't care enough about that.

You know just as well that the only reason for this is that no one plays the deck (well).

Except if you board in EtW and your opponent doesn't know your exact hand somehow.

May I remind you that those cards were cut for good reason? People quickly grew tired of killing themselves with those lists and I couldnt blame them since I was apart of that group. We reently cut the second Ad Nauseam because it was such an awful thing to flip. I will not be playing three copies of a four casting cost card in conjunction with Ad Nauseam. It's going to do nothing but make me want to flip tables and hulk out every time it kills me twice a round.

Same. Keep playing Thoughtscours. Please!

It's relevant. Empty isn't simply "just win".

No. I don't think Doomsday decks are good. They're the hipsters of combo, everyone wants to be cool like them. Except they suck and are terrible to be around. Let's see a good player play Doomsday? Emildn has been trying to convince people for years that deck is good and he's succeeded without results. By far the best long-term troll on this forum yet and people thought Thunderbluff was funny.

I guess you got me on your opponents not knowing specific sideboards. Can't argue that.

[SaberTooth]

In the last BoM a doomsday was in 7 position i gues... but well.. for me tes and ant are better

[Bahamuth]

May I remind you that those cards were cut for good reason? People quickly grew tired of killing themselves with those lists and I couldnt blame them since I was apart of that group. We reently cut the second Ad Nauseam because it was such an awful thing to flip. I will not be playing three copies of a four casting cost card in conjunction with Ad Nauseam. It's going to do nothing but make me want to flip tables and hulk out every time it kills me twice a round.

You won't even be playing Ad Nauseam twice a round because you can just win the game with EtW...



No. I don't think Doomsday decks are good. They're the hipsters of combo, everyone wants to be cool like them. Except they suck and are terrible to be around. Let's see a good player play Doomsday? Emildn has been trying to convince people for years that deck is good and he's succeeded without results. By far the best long-term troll on this forum yet and people thought Thunderbluff was funny.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=939986
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2755

Given that there are like 4 people in the world that are seriously playing this deck, I'm pretty sure those are decent results.

[Bryant Cook]

You won't even be playing Ad Nauseam twice a round because you can just win the game with EtW...

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=939986
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2755

Given that there are like 4 people in the world that are seriously playing this deck, I'm pretty sure those are decent results.
My point still stands. It makes Ad Nauseam unreliable. I will not be killing myself due to three Empty the Warrens in the deck.

As for Doomsday, still not impressed.

[Pelikanudo]

Ok, yes I also didn't want to take out WinCon main, same as DDFT, if you don't play tendrils main, you avoid some piles for some scenarios, same happens with TES, you avoid those 2 mana.
So, Testing 4 moxen 1 tendrils 4 Gitaxian 1 A.N 11 lands 3 dureses No Empty main.

@Bryant!
Please consider me one of the 4 players playing DDFT In the world!.
Be more constructive, please.
In my meta, likely I 'm the only one playing DDFT, next someone joined me...
There are few playing DDFT, but those Few win torunaments, Asheimer, Cheesburguer, Emidlin, Bahamut, all thanks!

See for reference:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5356&iddeck=38737

[lambert101]

@Pelikanudo
Congrats on the finish but did you find yourself durdling around with this deck?
How do you deal with Maverick after Mom and Thalia?
Not trying to pick a fight but just don't understand why you would be arguing about DDT vs. T.E.S. in this thread.

@Bryant
How has the three fetch lands been working out? Haven't had time to test. I trust your judgement on this deck and wanted to know how it was working.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Awhile back TES and ANT were two distinct decks. Now I am looking at lists and it seems the main difference is rite of flame over cabal ritual. What are the other differences? I know the origins are different but now with PiF I am wondering if they have merged.

[joemauer]

Awhile back TES and ANT were two distinct decks. Now I am looking at lists and it seems the main difference is rite of flame over cabal ritual. What are the other differences? I know the origins are different but now with PiF I am wondering if they have merged.
There are three distinct differences in the maindecks.

1)rite versus cabal rit, which you already mentioned.

2) Ant stills play more lands while TES plays more Chrome Moxes.

3) TES is five colors so it can support Chant effects(as well xantid swarm) instead of more discard.

With all the complex thought trees that are now brought over to ANT because of the addition of B. wish, I am not sure what advantages it has over TES now. Being easier to play was the only thing ANT had going for it.

But ANT did win the last GP so maybe I am missing something.

[Vacrix]

But ANT did win the last GP so maybe I am missing something.
TES has a trade off for running 5 colors. It plays far fewer fetchlands which means Brainstorm loses a bit of its value. Also, fetches can get basics which makes Wasteland less effective if you expect it via Probe or a Discard spell.

Also, the discard package can be more effective than Chants in certain matchups. For example, when you have to deal with cards like Show and Tell, Counterbalance, as well as hate bears when your protection is IoK or Thoughtseize. Chant doesn't do much of anything in those cases. Also, if a Reanimator opponent's hand is light on reanimation spells, discard can be an effective way to slow them down, though this is rare. Another rare occasion is when you have played EtW, or plan to, and your opponent has access to Deed, EE, or Terminus. I've also played discard effects to good effect against stuff like Merfolk and take their Vial. It can really slow their clock down. In favor of Chant, it can occasionally be played as a time walk which can be especially relevant when the opponent has a brutal attack step on the way. EtW races versus something like Belcher (who is on the play) or the storm mirror can make or break the game when you can skip their combat phase. Also, I've seen decks like Planeswalker control (or some other slow controls decks that choose not to play CB) board in Leyline of Sanctity mainly for the Burn matchup and even against Tempo to shut off their reach but they can port it over to the storm combo matchup as well to force you into Goblin tokens or play around it with a removal spell. That makes Silence fantastic because it doesn't have to target the opponent to shut down countermagic.

TES's advantage over ANT though is probably that its the fastest non-glass house combo deck in the format. Its extremely explosive and has very good protection spells for the storm mirror and control matchups. ANT players like to run Preordain as well to help with consistency. Lately though Preordain has been replaced by Probe quite often. In terms of the speed, TES is actually faster than Belcher quite often (or at least tied) because Belcher has 7/11 win conditions leading to Goblin tokens, while TES can actually get the kill before turn 3 in most of your games. So basically Belcher actually plays and activates Belcher for the kill only 35% of the time and it can misfire and sometimes you have to pass the turn when you need another turn to activate. Next to SI, TES is basically the fastest deck you can play in the format. ANT follow TES in terms of speed but slows down a bit for consistency both in mana base and cantrips, with a discard package that helps it consistently disrupt an opponents strategy while TES focuses its protection more on protecting its own combo.

[Bryant Cook]

TES has a trade off for running 5 colors. It plays far fewer fetchlands which means Brainstorm loses a bit of its value. Also, fetches can get basics which makes Wasteland less effective if you expect it via Probe or a Discard spell.

Also, the discard package can be more effective than Chants in certain matchups. For example, when you have to deal with cards like Show and Tell, Counterbalance, as well as hate bears when your protection is IoK or Thoughtseize. Chant doesn't do much of anything in those cases. Also, if a Reanimator opponent's hand is light on reanimation spells, discard can be an effective way to slow them down, though this is rare. Another rare occasion is when you have played EtW, or plan to, and your opponent has access to Deed, EE, or Terminus. I've also played discard effects to good effect against stuff like Merfolk and take their Vial. It can really slow their clock down. In favor of Chant, it can occasionally be played as a time walk which can be especially relevant when the opponent has a brutal attack step on the way. EtW races versus something like Belcher (who is on the play) or the storm mirror can make or break the game when you can skip their combat phase. Also, I've seen decks like Planeswalker control (or some other slow controls decks that choose not to play CB) board in Leyline of Sanctity mainly for the Burn matchup and even against Tempo to shut off their reach but they can port it over to the storm combo matchup as well to force you into Goblin tokens or play around it with a removal spell. That makes Silence fantastic because it doesn't have to target the opponent to shut down countermagic.

TES's advantage over ANT though is probably that its the fastest non-glass house combo deck in the format. Its extremely explosive and has very good protection spells for the storm mirror and control matchups. ANT players like to run Preordain as well to help with consistency. Lately though Preordain has been replaced by Probe quite often. In terms of the speed, TES is actually faster than Belcher quite often (or at least tied) because Belcher has 7/11 win conditions leading to Goblin tokens, while TES can actually get the kill before turn 3 in most of your games. So basically Belcher actually plays and activates Belcher for the kill only 35% of the time and it can misfire and sometimes you have to pass the turn when you need another turn to activate. Next to SI, TES is basically the fastest deck you can play in the format. ANT follow TES in terms of speed but slows down a bit for consistency both in mana base and cantrips, with a discard package that helps it consistently disrupt an opponents strategy while TES focuses its protection more on protecting its own combo.

This is deceptively biased towards ANT. You mention how great the discard spells are but never mention how Silence can be better. Some of what you said is true though.

• T.E.S. plays just as much discard as ANT does if it needs to post board, it still has Inquisitions.
• Silence is a must counter. Meaning an opponent can't let you resolve it and then play the other counter spell in their hand. This happens with discard effects, I know, I play Duress too.
• Silence can negate multiple spells, Spell Snare, Stifle, Red Elemental Blast, and Blue Elemental Blasts just to name a few.
• Forces Surgical Extraction out of their hand at inopportune times.
• Can stop a Snapcaster Mage.
• Can stop Miracles.
• Silence can "Time walk" against decks. (You mentioned)
• Can be played to fool the opponent. There has been matches won due to Silencing on their upkeep as a time walk then Ad Nauseam on their end step.
• Ignores Leyline of Sanctity. (You mentioned)
• Incredible in the combo mirror. (You mentioned)

This is all I can brainstorm at the moment, I've got to get back to work.

[AriLax]

There are three distinct differences in the maindecks.

1)rite versus cabal rit, which you already mentioned.

2) Ant stills play more lands while TES plays more Chrome Moxes.

3) TES is five colors so it can support Chant effects(as well xantid swarm) instead of more discard.

With all the complex thought trees that are now brought over to ANT because of the addition of B. wish, I am not sure what advantages it has over TES now. Being easier to play was the only thing ANT had going for it.

But ANT did win the last GP so maybe I am missing something.

TES:

Silence is much better against conditional counters (Spell Snare, Stifle), Storm, and Reanimator (as you can't always be on the play to hit their Entomb and you can't always hit their reanimation spell with discard b/c they have so many.).

Also, here is approximately your cumulative distribution of kill turns.

T1: 15%
T2: 50%
T3: 80%
T4: 85%

ANT:

Discard is better against soft counters backed by a couple hard counters (ie. Merfolk's counter suite) and against slower combo (Sneak and Show).

Your mana base is also better against the Merfolk disruption suite.

Also, cumulative distribution of kill turns (based on my old 12 cantrip Grim ANT)

T1: 5%
T2: 20%
T3: 90%
T4: 97%

Most of this has to do with Cabal Ritual hitting threshold around T3 off a curve of cantrips/discard/fetches and with Ad Naus with 0 floating being very unreliable with only 4-5 Petal/Mox.

TL,DR:
If you don't have to kill anyone before turn 3 and aren't facing down a lot of hard counters, but instead are seeing a lot of Daze/Spell Pierce/Wasteland, ANT is a more reliable choice than TES.

If you need to race other turn 2 kills/threats or are playing against conditional counters, TES is much better as ANT really can't do either.

TL;DR of the TL;DR:

ANT > TES: Sneak and Show, Merfolk, certain RUG lists, slightly ahead in most bye matchups (Goblins, Zoo, etc).
TES > ANT: Reanimator, Miracle Countertop, prob Maverick (no idea what Probe-Therapy does here), Dredge, High Tide, Storm Mirrors
No idea: Esperblade


Also, no idea where this whole "TES is harder to play" thing came from. Transitioning between the two decks was almost entirely a matter of figuring out the stylistic differences in cantripping. Sure, TES has more lines to take once comboing, but they are all extremely obvious.

ANT is more about playing the math and maximizing cantrip EV, TES is more about reading the opponent and determining the key break point on when to combo. Neither is more difficult, just different.

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant:
@Bahamut:
@Emidlin:

Have you tried 11 lands, 4 moxen, 4 gitaxian configuration?
Which are your feelings regarding to this?

I say this because surprisingly, 11 lands seem to me ok in testing, I'm also thionking in go back to:
4 gemstone
3 City
2 Fetches
1 volcanic
1 U. sea.


@Regarding the boy who asked me related to the DDFT win:
that was an old era... I think I won 1 or 2 'Big' torunament with DDFT and stop playing it, playing perfectly the deck can be exhausting and more in an important tournament where nervous makes you less intelligent.

That archetype is old, it even runs street wraith... see Asheimer lysts for reference.
I'm not saying DDFT is better than TES, just are different decks, BUT there are things that can be extrapolated from one deck to another.
I still prefer playing TES design.

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant:
@Bahamut:
@Emidlin:

Have you tried 11 lands, 4 moxen, 4 gitaxian configuration?
Which are your feelings regarding to this?

I say this because surprisingly, 11 lands seem to me ok in testing, I'm also thionking in go back to:
4 gemstone
3 City
2 Fetches
1 volcanic
1 U. sea.


I haven't tested the deck with eleven lands, only twelve. I don't know if shaving two lands off of the previous lists is a good idea, it's going to create some very difficult mulligan scenarios. Although, it would gain a tiny bit of explosiveness, I don't believe it would be worth the consistency issues.

I tested a bit more with Reanimator and Sneak Show. I've decided that bringing in Inquisition against these decks isn't correct anymore due to the addition of Karakas. The updated strategies are in the opening post.

Part of me wonders if the Inquisitions and Thoughtseize in the sideboard should just become three Cabal Therapy. The synergies between four Probe and Empty the Warrens seem incredibly strong.

Also, if anyone knows of any articles, reports, links that I've missed for the opening post. Send me a PM.

[joemauer]

words


ANT was easier to play before the addition of burning wish because it much more linear. Now it has decision trees to be made during the game.

You could be right about the Merfolk match up although TES plays Xantid Swarm which is a huge boon, but I would say the Sneak n Show matchup is in TES's favor. Winning quicker is usually the way to win that match up and TES does it better and more efficiently.

[Dark Ritual]

You can easily splash green in a UB or UBr ANT shell postboard with one trop and some xantid's. You also have petals to cast xantid. Against merfolk, you typically have time to play through their soft countermagic. Just don't have discard countered by soft counters and you'll be able to take their FoW and then go off next turn through soft counters probably or at the latest the turn after that. Merfolk can rarely win on turn 4 and if they are putting you on that fast of a clock, they probably lack countermagic. I don't know why everyone thinks merfolk is such a rough matchup, I'd rather be facing merfolk instead of counterbalance decks.

Why not just cut all the lands Pelikanudo? I mean really, 11 lands sounds exceptionally greedy in a deck that is already quite greedy and will lead to mulligans. I'm not even a fan of going down to 12 lands, as this deck runs silence and silence requires +1 mana on the combo turn. When you don't run enough lands it's hard to support silence and will lead to awkward board states where you cannot combo due to being unable to protect your combo with silence due to lacking sufficient ritual mana afterwards in hands where you have RoF and DR but you have just one land on board and only one petal or chrome mox in hand. Going down to 12 lands is greedy, 11 even more so. And if you want to run a deck without protection that wins as fast as possible I recommend the spanish inquisition (runs 2 lands) or belcher (runs 1 land) as those decks are machines that win on turn 1 quite often if the opponent lacks force of will.

ANT is the more stable combo deck that can consistently go off on turns 3-4 with protection quite easily. TES is the deck that sacrifices manabase stability for speed.

Also, how hard is it to cast burning wish? I think it's rather easy to resolve wish. You grab what you need with it every time whether thats pyroclasm, duress, PiF, IGG, etc. etc. it all depends on what resources you have available and if you don't know what resources you have available I recommend playing a simple deck like zoo where it is quite linear in terms of playstyle and easy to pilot.

[Bryant Cook]

Played at a local tonight, went 3-1 not making the playoffs. I mulliganed once over four rounds, my loss was to Miracles. Where he top decked Counterbalance after a Duress in two straight games after I Emptied for 16 on the play game one. I sided out Empty then decided to bring in Tendrils, then opened it two games in a row (the one Mulligan). I beat two G/W decks, one being Maverick and RUG (He didnt want to play anymore :/).

Karakas would've been good games two or three if Maverick would've played anything relevant before I won. I did open it the third game but I also had a turn one.

Therapy out of the side was better than Inquisition.

[Tombstalker]

Rough break against miracle control but usually they can't beat that turn 1 play. Since you guys innovated EtW main I think therapy is the easy to go.

[j_rb]

Played the 4 probe list tonight at the local tourney and went 4-0. Beat some durdly mono white control deck with scepter chant and other bs, beat rug, maverick and ranimator. The 12 lands didn't bother me at all. Won 2 rug and 1 maverick game with empty. The rug games weren't even close and the information probe gives in that MU is very important in deciding what lines to take to win.

I mulled 3 hands total out of the 10 games I played and they were loose hands with no land. 2 of the hands were terrible even with a land.

all in all the 12 lands seems perfectly fine and it doesn't seem less consistent with only 12 land and the probes make the deck more explosive. I'm really liking this version of TES and probably stick with it for a while before deciding to play a different version( I always switch between versions from week to week at local tourneys for testing purposes).

List same MD as opening post and 3 thoughtseize in board in place of therapy inquisitions. I also was playing 1 karakas and 1 deathmark in the 2nd karakas' spot.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Wasteland can't beat us if we play zero lands!

[j_rb]

Wasteland can't beat us if we play zero lands!

Maybe we can beat their wastelands with wastelands of our own!!!!!!!

[Final Fortune]

As far as I'm aware, there's no precise mathematical argument for 13 lands in TES. As I recall, TES reached 13 lands when Bryant decided to cut 2x Simian Spirit Guide from the deck due to the 3cc manacast conflicting with Ad Nauseam. When determining the "correct" number of lands, we have to ask ourselves what that number of lands is suppose to achieve. If we're suppose to draw at least 1 land in our hand, then 11 lands is the "correct" number. If we're suppose to draw 1 land in our hand and one more land with a cantrip then X is the "correct" number of lands. So I guess we need to determine how many lands with X and try to play that many?

11 lands was the old standard for TES because it was the old standard for the Vintage Long decks, I don't think arguments like "if you're going to cut lands down to 11 you may as well cut every land from the deck" are really helpful. This isn't ANT, our deck is designed to win on T2 before the counter/top, hate bear or chalice at 1 hits the table.

As far as the number of Chrome Mox, I have no problem with 4 Chrome Moxes or 3 Chrome Moxes or even 2 Chrome Moxes, as far as I'm concerned it's the worst card in the deck and you either play 4 for the explosiveness (which I think is quite relevant playing a 6cc win condition in the MD and 4 free Peeks) or you play the minimum number to ensure that you'll draw an accelerant off of Diminishing Returns and Ad Nauseam without drawing it otherwise. Honestly, I'd cut every Chrome Mox in the deck for Simian Spirit Guide if the 3cc wasn't a detriment to Ad Nauseam, but Chrome Mox is still the homely girl that you take home at the end of the night absent any better options.

[egosum]

Hi,

I'm testing this UBR TES version so far:

Main 60

4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Gemstone Mine (color fixer)

3x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion' s Eye Diamond

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
1x Preordain

4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame

4x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish

1x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens

4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize

Side 15

3x Dread of Night
2x Echoing Truth
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Pyroclasm
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Emtpy the Warrens
1x Meltdown
2x FLEXIBLE SLOTS (2x Extirpate, 2x Pyroblast, 1x Past in Flames + 1x Inquisition of Kozilek, this has been tested so far)

Nothing new, but a meta adapted TES. The idea behind the 3C choice is not for mana base consistency (sure it may help, but is not the main reason), but is that here in Barcelona (Spain) there are lots of CB-Top miracle decks, and I wanted to focus all my disruption in discard-like spells, hence, there was no reason to play white (nor green) and this led me to add some more fetchlands to maximize my set up cantrips.

I also do not wanted to play "do nothing cards", so Gitaxian Probe was, tested, and cut. And when chosing between IoK and Seize for main deck, the latter proved to be better simply because it can take the FoWs away.

I'm Playing Pyroclasm over Grapeshot because of Thalia being the hatebear of choice (if talking about maidecks). And I also decided to go with Pyroclasm over Virtue's Ruin simply for the increasing number of goblins that lately appeared.

I' ve chosen Meltdown over Spree because I no longer play Rainbow lands, so generating multiple red mana could be an issue. I felt Meltdown only worse against Blade (due to high cost of batterskull), but I can always discard the Skull away if I feel I need it.

The flexible slots, are not really "flexible" but, in fact undecided:

-Not sure if Past in flames is really needed (I haven't so far, but Ill give mroe time to see what I do).
-Extirpates are cream against Reanimator and OK agasint CB-Top.
-Pyroblasts are just quite good against CB-Top, and Ok against RUG (can kill Delver for extra time), and superb against Merfolks.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Bryant Cook]

As far as I'm aware, there's no precise mathematical argument for 13 lands in TES. As I recall, TES reached 13 lands when Bryant decided to cut 2x Simian Spirit Guide from the deck due to the 3cc manacast conflicting with Ad Nauseam. When determining the "correct" number of lands, we have to ask ourselves what that number of lands is suppose to achieve. If we're suppose to draw at least 1 land in our hand, then 11 lands is the "correct" number. If we're suppose to draw 1 land in our hand and one more land with a cantrip then X is the "correct" number of lands. So I guess we need to determine how many lands with X and try to play that many?

11 lands was the old standard for TES because it was the old standard for the Vintage Long decks, I don't think arguments like "if you're going to cut lands down to 11 you may as well cut every land from the deck" are really helpful. This isn't ANT, our deck is designed to win on T2 before the counter/top, hate bear or chalice at 1 hits the table.

This is pretty much all truth.


As far as the number of Chrome Mox, I have no problem with 4 Chrome Moxes or 3 Chrome Moxes or even 2 Chrome Moxes, as far as I'm concerned it's the worst card in the deck and you either play 4 for the explosiveness (which I think is quite relevant playing a 6cc win condition in the MD and 4 free Peeks) or you play the minimum number to ensure that you'll draw an accelerant off of Diminishing Returns and Ad Nauseam without drawing it otherwise. Honestly, I'd cut every Chrome Mox in the deck for Simian Spirit Guide if the 3cc wasn't a detriment to Ad Nauseam, but Chrome Mox is still the homely girl that you take home at the end of the night absent any better options.

That last line makes me believe that you are secretly Zach Tartell.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Bryant,

Do you side in karakas vs. reanimator? My initial thought was no, since you're faster. But you have no real way of interacting with them, so if they jam an iona/Jin, it's just GG.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant,

Do you side in karakas vs. reanimator? My initial thought was no, since you're faster. But you have no real way of interacting with them, so if they jam an iona/Jin, it's just GG.

It's on the opening post, but yes - I do. I've began to change my sideboarding plan a bit due to Therapy over Inquisitions/Thoughtseize. I've been going -1 Ponder, -1 Probe for 2 Therapy instead of the suggested -2 Probe. In match-ups like Reanimator where you don't bring in Therapy I think it's right to board out two Probe and not the Ponder.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi,

I played the other day this list:

4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn (next change will be -1 = +1 city of brass)
1 Polluted Delta (next change will be -1 = +1 city of brass)


4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
1 Tendrils (Prefer this , in here there is too much e.explosives, and terminus)
1 Ad Nauseam

1 T.seize (next change will be -2 = +1 therapy)
2 Inquisition of Koc (next change will be -2 = +2 therapy)
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Karakas
2 Echoing Truth
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames

Side 2 xantid 2 e.truth 2 inquisition 1 t.seize
I played vs:
- Goblins
- Rainbow control (This archetype is played a few in spain is RUGW with cunin and punishing)
- Team America with All the hate of the world.(T.seize, Pierce, surgicals, liliana, Hymns! Daze, wasteland...)
- DDFT

Some conclusions:
- Regarding DDFT match up. - Loose 1 - 2
Win first game, was easy, he did not landed senseis
Second I side in xantid and when playing it on 1st turn he next win on its 2nd, !!!!.
This mutch up depends on speedy, and TES can not afford long game, it is impossible, even the player I faced o course wasnt a bad player...
In here the 2 inquisition was awfull, I simply need to (take senseis OR chant effect) OR loose
- Regarding Goblins: Won 2-1
I faced in second and third M.B. Trap.
It is really easy to play around M.B.Trap if you know they have in hand, so in here Probe is gold, and again Kocilek is useless.
- Regarding Team America: Loose 1-2
First game was one of those games where you see how goodis TES , even playing 11 lands and discarding 3 cards and no playing land in 5 turns, you can win...
I really do not see how to side in here, I see that a lot fire vs fire is ok, I mean more discard, but it was very close.
likely the inquisition where ok, but simply prefer other cards,

- Rainbow: Loose 0-2
In here I see the error of the lands, not the number, it was the configuration I should have move to 4 city 4 gemstone 2 U.sea 1 volcanic. (played only 2 city) becuase althouthg in first game he had 2 Fow plus Forbid and pierce,
I reached that moment on which I had 2 silence , Fetch , Brainstorm and waiting for Rainbow and dont get it, I had even 4 lands in play, but didnt see double rainbow. I inmediatly thouth in swithcing to 12 lands but that wasn't correct as I had won because of that, in the long game he needed to land Jace, the next turn was the turn I should have won. with double silence.
The second game I was dissapointed and didn't really pay attention.
Again inquisition nonsense.

- So,
I recognice Id dint faced lot of other tiers, but seems to me ok with 11 lands 4 probes.
I will change the configuration and take out those inquisition.
I think that the deck has gaind speed and the 2 karakas 2 e.truth is enogh to handle maverick
The Team America match up I felt like I would have won (I won first but needed some better cards that inquisition. sure its difficlut but always you see the good odds..
So I've been thinking seriously in those slots.
Therapy is as Bryant says the best choice as we now play 4 probes.
But also 1 T.seize 2 pyroblast seem to me ok becasue this handle lot of troubles in my meta S.Tell, Miracle ,Rainbow, AND snapcasters, c.balances , vencilion, FoWs
I think I'm going to test 3 thereapys simply because it's likely the correct choice, but again and playing only 11 lands I don't think that probe will need to be sided out too much instead or even nothing instead of ponder (thing I prevously metioned.)

I really think the No fetched plan 4 probes is the correct choice.
Point I didn't mulliganed.

I'm not sure how good the 3shold matchup can be with all these counters, sure they're not playing stifle (don't know why) however 11 lands can be few, I've thoutgh and as silnces is glond in here sidng in 1 karakas...

Questions:
@Bryant
@Egosum paisano!
@Emidlin
@CheseBurguer


Sure you didnt want to try 11 lands?
Have you tried 2 pyroblast 1 t.seize in those slots.?

One thing I want to share is the feeling regarding Probes, I mean this is TES, they literally do nothing, I think the idea is how good probe is in TES? what is its goal, with therapy in side we found one, but is really neccessary in TES? I've been happy with 13 lands 8 disruption 2 A.N, except that time I lost to the revealed A.N... at 20! but, why we can not play simply 2, 1 for 2nd A.N and 1 as parity with 8th disruption? I'd like to know Bryant your feeling related to this last.

[Bryant Cook]

I recognice Id dint faced lot of other tiers, but seems to me ok with 11 lands 4 probes.
I will change the configuration and take out those inquisition.
I think that the deck has gaind speed and the 2 karakas 2 e.truth is enogh to handle maverick
The Team America match up I felt like I would have won (I won first but needed some better cards that inquisition. sure its difficlut but always you see the good odds..
So I've been thinking seriously in those slots.
Therapy is as Bryant says the best choice as we now play 4 probes.
But also 1 T.seize 2 pyroblast seem to me ok becasue this handle lot of troubles in my meta S.Tell, Miracle ,Rainbow, AND snapcasters, c.balances , vencilion, FoWs
I think I'm going to test 3 thereapys simply because it's likely the correct choice, but again and playing only 11 lands I don't think that probe will need to be sided out too much instead or even nothing instead of ponder (thing I prevously metioned.)

I really think the No fetched plan 4 probes is the correct choice.
Point I didn't mulliganed.

I'm not sure how good the 3shold matchup can be with all these counters, sure they're not playing stifle (don't know why) however 11 lands can be few, I've thoutgh and as silnces is glond in here sidng in 1 karakas...

First things first man, I appreciate your input and playing T.E.S. and all. But try to run your posts through autocorrect and use the shift key. It’s getting more and more difficult to decipher your posts.

I’m playing Cabal Therapy in the sideboard due to four Gitaxian Probe main deck, it happens to be more useful than Inquisition because of the synergy between the two of the cards. My sideboarding strategy changed due to the addition of Cabal Therapy, not because of something you mentioned previously. It would be pointless to sideboard out multiple Probes just to sideboard in Cabal Therapy. That’s why the change to sideboard out a single Ponder happened. Not to create some point.

I don’t see how the increased number of Probes makes fetchlands any worse.




Sure you didnt want to try 11 lands?
Have you tried 2 pyroblast 1 t.seize in those slots.?

One thing I want to share is the feeling regarding Probes, I mean this is TES, they literally do nothing, I think the idea is how good probe is in TES? what is its goal, with therapy in side we found one, but is really neccessary in TES? I've been happy with 13 lands 8 disruption 2 A.N, except that time I lost to the revealed A.N... at 20! but, why we can not play simply 2, 1 for 2nd A.N and 1 as parity with 8th disruption? I'd like to know Bryant your feeling related to this last.

I have zero interest in going down to eleven lands, the less lands we have the more susceptible to Wasteland we become. I don’t like losing to Wasteland. Cutting fetchlands for gold lands only makes it worse.

I’ve played Pyroblast in the past. Pyroblast is only useful in blue match-ups which is the problem. I want a more versatile card that I can sideboard in during non-blue match-ups too - Maverick for example.

How do Probes not do anything? They give information, which is their primary role. Then they increase storm for Empty the Warrens and have great synergy with Cabal Therapy.

This is still T.E.S. and I will not be going back to two Ad Nauseam for the foreseeable future.

[Final Fortune]

Glad to hear you changed your SB to include Cabal Therapy, after playing Cabal Therapy with 4 Gitaxian Probe I realized I never Burning Wished for Thought Seize blindly anyway and that I was always better off Burning Wishing for Cabal Therapy because I could either discard multiple counter spells or force the opponent to counter the Burning Wish altogether if he expected me to get Cabal Therapy.

I don't understand how 8 gold lands makes the deck more susceptible to land destruction than 3 fetch lands, unless you mean you're holding onto your fetch lands in order to protect yourself vs Wasteland and not casting your Duress and Ponder turn 1? I'm not certain I agree that 12 lands is the correct number of lands, but I do agree that 3 Chrome Mox is the correct number of Chrome Mox considering how often we SB it out and thus I ended up at 12 lands as well; 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 1 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island.

I don't know if I just have awful luck with 6 gold lands, but I find myself having to cast Silence off of a Lotus Petal far more often than I'd like to and getting into terrible situations where I have to make a decision to go for it right now where I could've waited if I had cast it from a gold land and held onto the Lotus Petal, it's really infuriating.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't understand how 8 gold lands makes the deck more susceptible to land destruction than 3 fetch lands, unless you mean you're holding onto your fetch lands in order to protect yourself vs Wasteland and not casting your Duress and Ponder turn 1? I'm not certain I agree that 12 lands is the correct number of lands, but I do agree that 3 Chrome Mox is the correct number of Chrome Mox considering how often we SB it out and thus I ended up at 12 lands as well; 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 1 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island.

I don't know if I just have awful luck with 6 gold lands, but I find myself having to cast Silence off of a Lotus Petal far more often than I'd like to and getting into terrible situations where I have to make a decision to go for it right now where I could've waited if I had cast it from a gold land and held onto the Lotus Petal, it's really infuriating.

Not cracking fetch lands can win games against decks like Goblins and Maverick where a wasteland would really hurt but you need another land. These situations aren't that uncommon not to mention the shuffle effect from the lands has plenty of value between Brainstorms and Ponders. I don't have these color issues that people claim to have.

[joemauer]

Not cracking fetch lands can win games against decks like Goblins and Maverick where a wasteland would really hurt but you need another land. These situations aren't that uncommon not to mention the shuffle effect from the lands has plenty of value between Brainstorms and Ponders. I don't have these color issues that people claim to have.

Yes, this is correct.

Those few times that you can't cast a Silence cause your gold lands and petals were hiding from you are vastly overshadowed by the usefulness of fetch lands in this deck.

Fetches turn brainstorm into awesomeness and give us Wasteland resistance. Stifle isn't being played right now either.

[Pelikanudo]

Playing that tournament,
I played vs Goblins, in the 3 games I needed to fetch to look for and Play duress or Ponder, thats it. Moxen really shines in here.
I think even plkaying 7 lalnds I wont loose vs goblins.
So argument vs Goblins is nonsense.

And maverick, even you will need to fetch soon, that's even contradictory.
For sure I want to face those maverick and goblins even playin 10 lands.

The real Problem i see is sometimes the need of mana for silence.
So playing 11 - old configuration - no fetches 8 gold is ok for me. sometimes I dont need lands to win just 1, but please, the correct one.

I mean how do you beat a hand with 2 FoWs, spierce and Forbid and next drawing Cunning - > Fluster,
I needed during 5 TURNS a Petal or a Gold. . Playing 11 lands, those fetches and holding the brainstorm the most time, didnt served me of nothing (3 silence in hand).
Please respond!

[SaberTooth]

i think that if you play brainstorm, you need to play fetchlands

[Final Fortune]

Playing that tournament,
I played vs Goblins, in the 3 games I needed to fetch to look for and Play duress or Ponder, thats it. Moxen really shines in here.
I think even plkaying 7 lalnds I wont loose vs goblins.
So argument vs Goblins is nonsense.

And maverick, even you will need to fetch soon, that's even contradictory.
For sure I want to face those maverick and goblins even playin 10 lands.

The real Problem i see is sometimes the need of mana for silence.
So playing 11 - old configuration - no fetches 8 gold is ok for me. sometimes I dont need lands to win just 1, but please, the correct one.

I mean how do you beat a hand with 2 FoWs, spierce and Forbid and next drawing Cunning - > Fluster,
I needed during 5 TURNS a Petal or a Gold. . Playing 11 lands, those fetches and holding the brainstorm the most time, didnt served me of nothing (3 silence in hand).
Please respond!

I've made similar observations, I imagine 3 or 4 Chrome Mox, 11 or 12 Lands and 6 to 8 Gold Lands is just based on your own experience more than anything else.

[akmalik]

Cause I failed some tournaments with the old “standard” list (most of the time screwed and lost thanks to Mulligans), I cutted some Chrome Moxe for more lands, Karakas and another City. It's a little bit slower but really constant and fits my playstyle very well. Has anyone else gained experience in this direction? In my experience you have with this version a better tempo matchup and its easier to combo through counterbalance/top.

[Lemnear]

Cause I failed some tournaments with the old “standard” list (most of the time screwed and lost thanks to Mulligans), I cutted some Chrome Moxe for more lands, Karakas and another City. It's a little bit slower but really constant and fits my playstyle very well. Has anyone else gained experience in this direction? In my experience you have with this version a better tempo matchup and its easier to combo through counterbalance/top.

I've cutted chrome mox completely long before and adjusted my playstyle to the weaker ad nauseams needing a Petal or a land Post nauseam as startup. I enjoy the additional fetches for the cantrips and stable mana vs. Wasteland and 4 developing my game.

I even Run confidant Main from Time to time to overcome Control/outdraw hatebears and Force them to keep creature removal in. Playing upkeep-chants/silence in several turns with confidant/s online is nice too.

@counterbalance: you should try to go Off before CB comes online. Therefore chrome mox is better than additional lands

[jandax]

Question for those opting for Xantid Swarm in the sideboard:

Was Dark Confidant also tested out when making this decision? I know on the front page it was a missed-the-cut listed creature. But at some point wasn't Xantid Swarm? Anyways, one premise that both strategies share is that decks with removal will board it out making the creatures you board in less vulnerable. From there, it's a just a question of wanting to prevent spells from being countered, or plowing through opposition and just draw a ton of cards to replace their disruption?

I've tried both out and just like the Confidant better. Granted, it's only been a few dozen games, limited testing. Maybe it's purely subjective, thought I'd ask and see what people thought.

[Bryant Cook]

Question for those opting for Xantid Swarm in the sideboard:

Was Dark Confidant also tested out when making this decision? I know on the front page it was a missed-the-cut listed creature. But at some point wasn't Xantid Swarm? Anyways, one premise that both strategies share is that decks with removal will board it out making the creatures you board in less vulnerable. From there, it's a just a question of wanting to prevent spells from being countered, or plowing through opposition and just draw a ton of cards to replace their disruption?

I've tried both out and just like the Confidant better. Granted, it's only been a few dozen games, limited testing. Maybe it's purely subjective, thought I'd ask and see what people thought.

T.E.S. is fundamentally different than ANT. T.E.S. is much faster and has a worse time at playing the long game, it's strengths are having disruption while being fast. Mainly due to the lack of basics and less land for more acceleration. Dark Confidant does not fit this game plan - Confidant is a grindy card that's effect is most powerfully suited for a long game. T.E.S. never wants to play the long game. In this deck Confidant would be better off being Night's Whisper.

[jandax]

Fair enough. I guess my next question would be, does DC really affect the fundamentals of this deck in a way that it under performs?

I refuse to play ANT because it is slower, yet having the option of drawing extra cards seems to me, a relatively new player to Storm, more valuable in the matchups where your own disruption is matched by theirs. I'm willing to be completely wrong and accept that I'm trying to reinvent the wheel. You designed the deck, I just copied your list because its awesome.

The fundamentals I'm not trying to argue, it's the application of the card (Confidant) to this strategy of acceleration into a quicker combo that [to me] feels like it gives redundancy and card advantage back in matchups where Swarm would have done the same.

[Bryant Cook]

Fair enough. I guess my next question would be, does DC really affect the fundamentals of this deck in a way that it under performs?

I refuse to play ANT because it is slower, yet having the option of drawing extra cards seems to me, a relatively new player to Storm, more valuable in the matchups where your own disruption is matched by theirs. I'm willing to be completely wrong and accept that I'm trying to reinvent the wheel. You designed the deck, I just copied your list because its awesome.

The fundamentals I'm not trying to argue, it's the application of the card (Confidant) to this strategy of acceleration into a quicker combo that [to me] feels like it gives redundancy and card advantage back in matchups where Swarm would have done the same.

The problem with Confidant is that you can play him and draw 2-3 cards off him before being in a position to win the game, that's three additional turns you gave the opponent. That's not what this deck wants to do - ever. You're better off running Night's Whisper and not giving your opponents time to find hate against you.

[jandax]

The problem with Confidant is that you can play him and draw 2-3 cards off him before being in a position to win the game, ...

Good point, and here's what I'm getting at; just through my limited play with it against top tier decks in testing, it seemed like going off was guaranteed in a couple turns. Again your argument is just as good, I thought I was on to something

[Tombstalker]

I really dont think bob is even all that good in ANT, if that helps, so it would simply be worse in TES. Too much red, too many unfair decks and too many powerful interactions in this age make bob (and, IMO, straight CA cards) mostly an outdated concept.