[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Togores]

Yes, from that shity book/movie for 15 year old girls.

Hard, hard life...
Feel sad for him.

[DarkJester]

Weihenstephaner and Franziskaner are not Belgian. ;)

[Lemnear]

Weihenstephaner and Franziskaner are not Belgian. ;)

i guess half of europe have hinted to that in the meanwhile lmao

[Bryant Cook]

Alexandre Richard's article this week. (http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-epic-storm-approaches-the-magdalen-coast-a-calm-before-the-tendrils/)

[LDX]

I'm at work, so sorry for the bad writing.

Quick notes from our practice before the final tournament tomorrow night. Ended 3-1, losing only (and again) to Death & Taxes. That puts me in a comfortable lead in the first place, but nothing is played yet. If I was to choke tomorrow and my closest opponents would win, I would still lose my spot. We'll see how that ended next week. That being said, I played Bryant's list, -1 Duress, +1 Chrome Mox.

My sideboard was however the following:

1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Dark Petition
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Shattering Spree
1x Void Snare
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Dread of Night
1x Pyroclasm
1x Massacre

By now you should know I faced all kinds of Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Phyrexian Revoker, Thalia, Wrynn, etc. All the hatebears and a few extras like Chalice, Leyline, and all kind of Empty the Warrens removal. You know the drill.

I'll leave the details for the article, but I'll not play the Abrupt Decay tomorrow. I confirmed my final thought; I couldn't cast them without exposing to Wasteland, and by the time I was feeling comfortable at casting it, I couldn't anymore because Taxes issues. They're good against Counterbalance, great, but that's about it.

Round 1 vs Maverick:

G1
Turn 2 Ad Nauseam win

G2
He plays Ethersworn out of Dryad Arbor and Scrubland on his turn 2. On my turn 2, I cast BW for Massacre. He attacks on his turn. On mine, I play Massacre, clearing the board, holding Chain of Vapor for his EoT. Turn 4, he plays SFM, I combo out with Ad Nauseam. Was much easier to do than against D&T were so many land hate is played.

What I need help with was the sideboard. I went this way:

-2 Ponder, -2 Duress, -4 Cabal Therapy, +3 Decay, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare, + Dread of Night, +1 Shattering Spree

That's a lot of sideboard changes and I went uncomfortable with that. I removed all discard because, while I know EtW + CT synergy is awesome, I was afraid I couldn't go anyway if I didn't. I didn't know how many Chalice did he play, nor how many Teeg, so I brought the Decay in thinking they would be of use. Pyroclasm as a general sweeper, would keep that all day every day, Chain of Vapor felt awesome to keep after I swept the borad. Dread of Night felt like -1/-1 isn't enough for most hatebears. Shattering Spree was brought vs Chalice, but could have been used vs Batterskull too if I went Goblins. Void Snare would have been better as an other Chain of Vapor the way I wanted to use it. If I would have seen more Chalice than expected, I would have boarded more Shattering Spree for Ponders, just like I did against D&T. Speaking of which...

Round 2 vs D&T:

G1
We both mull. I kept a 6 of... Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Cabal Therapy, Brainstorm, Fetch, Fetch. I felt like I had almost more chances at winning with this, as I could GP/GP/BS what I didn't like. I saw nothing after the GPs, so I didn't bother BS. Was aweful.

I discard his Thalia on my turn 1, his turn 2 was Canonist, turn 3 Revoker, I couldn't recover.

G2
Sideboard: -4 Ponder, -2 Duress, -4 Cabal Therapy, +3 Decay, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare, + Dread of Night, +3 Shattering Spree

Cabal Therapy was left out because I've never been able to combo out, so combo with protection just felt too much of an impossible task. I'll try to explain my issue the shortest and clearest possible:

I keep Lotus Petal, Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor, Fetch, Fetch, Chrome Mox. I try to be more patient as I was told to avoid Wasteland and Ports. Allright. Mana being 40% of our deck is I remember well, I expect to draw acceleration fast. I don't want to crack anything before I go to avoid Wasteland and Ports.

So on his turn 2, he plays a Canonist. I don't want to Burning Wish on my turn 3 to avoid Wasteland, but I finally end up getting Wasteland anyway because I have to search for hate already. Like, it wasn't so easy to play Burning Wish after Wrynn, so I had to crack more lands for cantrips to get more mana to play the initial line I had in mind anyway... needless to say it didn't work out, and I got obliterated. I had an Abrupt Decay in hand I didn't even play.

Examples of play that could have been played: turn 2 BW for hate. Turn 2 IT on Petal, for a turn 3 land/land/petal/petal/CM with BW > Ad Nauseam.

But they all expose to Wastelands.


Other matches weren't relevant to problems, or were at least understood. I won a game by a pure missplay of my opponent but else than that they were good.

Will most likely change 3 Decays for 3 Xantid to face this new Stoneblade match.

Any quick reviews/tips? If not we'll talk later this week, after the next amazing (and last) article for this summer.

See you!

[Bryant Cook]

A few quick opening hand scenarios:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/storm-hands-1/

[Bryant Cook]

TES Mailbox is back:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-2/

[ManCharm]

I see you cut cabal ritual, probably because you wanted the higher land count, however did you like the 7th discard spell? I'm sure a single cabal ritual may not be as good by itself. I've noticed a higher density of failed ad nauseams with it in my deck, even though I love it so much lol. Kill your darlings, I suppose.

[Bryant Cook]

I see you cut cabal ritual, probably because you wanted the higher land count, however did you like the 7th discard spell? I'm sure a single cabal ritual may not be as good by itself. I've noticed a higher density of failed ad nauseams with it in my deck, even though I love it so much lol. Kill your darlings, I suppose.

I cut it over a month ago, I'm even pretty sure you "liked" the post in the Facebook group about it. The seventh discard spell was fine, the third Duress is worth it in a metagame where you want a guaranteed hit early against a decks like Miracles/Omnitell.

[ManCharm]

I cut it over a month ago, I'm even pretty sure you "liked" the post in the Facebook group about it. The seventh discard spell was fine, the third Duress is worth it in a metagame where you want a guaranteed hit early against a decks like Miracles/Omnitell.

Oh I'm sure I did, my memory is shit.

[Final Fortune]

The problem with Cabal Ritual is that it's not a good ritual post Ad Nauseam, because it's another 2cc reveal and can't be cast off a single Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox. When you start to cut Chrome Mox to two, one or none you are really going to need to draw as many cards as possible before you find an accelerant unless you float mana or haven't made your land drop. Just trimming Chrome Mox for lands adds enough, or at least more, consistency on your mulligans and I think Cabal Ritual was something of a misguided way of approaching the aggro-control match ups because they don't let you play around tax counters.

[Bryant Cook]

With Alexandre's article series coming to a close with tomorrow's article, I'm looking to pick up additional writers. If you're interested please private message me your article series concept with an example of MTG related writing that you've done. I do have some rules:

• Must be willing to learn basic wordpress.
• Please review for spelling/grammar.
• Never use the @ symbol (for example: Chalice of the Void at two).
• Try not to abbreviate if unnecessary, write things out.
• Don't use 3x or x anything (three times I mulliganed).
• Use card names appropriately (for example: Moxen versus Chrome Mox). Rewrite the sentence to include the full card name.

If we select a date for your articles to be published, I expect them with a day's notice for editing purposes.

[KaiSchafroth]

Looks like the new mulligan rule is going to be a thing come Battle for Zen (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/new-mulligan-rule-starting-battle-zendikar-prereleases-2015-08-20)

Should be fun times :)

[LDX]

This couldn't have happened if you guys weren't there.

I'll stay in touch, trying to play on Cockatrice and ask various questions around in order to learn TES properly. With all friends leaving and no LGS around, I won't be able to push the limits where I would like to, so you guys better top 8 for me! It will be my pleasure to answer any questions, receive any criticism, or be corrected on anything I've done related to the articles.

Give it a last reading! :laugh:

Thanks again,

Alexandre

http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-epic-storm-approaches-the-magdalen-coast-the-end/

[Bryant Cook]

My take on the new mulligan rules: http://www.theepicstorm.com/new-mulligan-rules-for-battle-for-zendikar/

[Wordslinger]

i want to run this at my legacy monthly but i'm out two volcanic islands. steam vents in testing seem like a terrible replacement seeing as the represent 4-6 card of ad naus on average. seeing how "just borrow it" isn't an option,
are there any suggestions as to what to run in there place? My other deck options are enchantress and nic fit, both of which i'm on a consistent losing streak with.

[Final Fortune]

Disappointed Scry doesn't stack, it would have had the most impact on mulliganing to 5. As is ill take it tho', the ability to dig for the manage source is way better for us than for them to dig for hate.

[Jesture]

i want to run this at my legacy monthly but i'm out two volcanic islands. steam vents in testing seem like a terrible replacement seeing as the represent 4-6 card of ad naus on average. seeing how "just borrow it" isn't an option,
are there any suggestions as to what to run in there place? My other deck options are enchantress and nic fit, both of which i'm on a consistent losing streak with.

It goes without saying that there's no real replacement for Volcanic Island in the deck. That said, there's a guy at my LGS who's in the same boat as you. He plays some combination of Blackcleave Cliffs and Darkslick Shores, as they often do a good enough impression of revised duals. I'd try a few of those if you can borrow them, but with their current price tag from modern you're probably better off just saving for Volcanics than you are buying Scars duals.

[Final Fortune]

It goes without saying that there's no real replacement for Volcanic Island in the deck. That said, there's a guy at my LGS who's in the same boat as you. He plays some combination of Blackcleave Cliffs and Darkslick Shores, as they often do a good enough impression of revised duals. I'd try a few of those if you can borrow them, but with their current price tag from modern you're probably better off just saving for Volcanics than you are buying Scars duals.

This, tho' if you can't afford the fetch and dual lands then I think using the older golden manabase could at least reduce the cost in the interim as you only need 1 Volcanic that way if you split it like 2 City of Brass, 3 Gemstone Mine, 4 Polluted Delta, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 3 Chrome Mox

[Wordslinger]

that's the awkward thing though i have two underground sea and all the fetches. I was about to pick up my first volcanic island but then jersey prices happened and then the canadian dollar took a hit reletive to the american and now I
can't find an MP volc for less than 300 this side of the border. I'm just missing 2 Volcanics. Maybe someone suggest an alternate mana base? How does the maindeck change? The sideboard?

[Final Fortune]

I think I'd go with 1 Steam Vents,

4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Steam Vents
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Mana Confluence
3 Chrome Mox

The Shock isn't ideal, but with the 3rd Chrome Mox and being able to EOT search for Steam Vents I don't think it would be that bad. In the SB you'd have to cut Massacre, Thoughtseize and maybe consider playing with Diminishing Returns again.

[Lemnear]

I don't think there is a good solution other than running steam vents and adjusting the playstyle, which means simply evading the turn 1 Ponder from the start if possible. T1 fetch, go and getting a tapped Steam Vents during your opponents eot to Ponder/Brainstorm in your T2 mainphase into a second fetch.

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, but it's also not like you can't go for Steam Vents and Ponder and just try to combo off 2 health down as well, you're just going to have to better judge aggro-control's clock.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, but it's also not like you can't go for Steam Vents and Ponder and just try to combo off 2 health down as well, you're just going to have to better judge aggro-control's clock.

Sure. You just don't want to find yourself to T1 value-ponder against unknown just to find yourself sitting across Burn/Delver. As we're talking about a specific opener where the Steam Vents vs. Volcanic really matters and the fact that the additional self-inflicted damage per game is rarely exceeding the two lifepoints, I would favor running the Vents than touching the rainbow manabase.

It would be honestly a lot more complicated if he had no Underground Seas and was going to substitute these as the eot-option isn't given

[Bryant Cook]

The "I don't have the proper mana base" question was asked for the third TES Mailbox as well. You'll get my opinion then!

[Wordslinger]

I have the bayou too. Literally just missing volcanic island.

Bryant, when does your article go up?

[Pilhas]

Hey guys, Been goldfishing for quite a bit with the deck(0 tournament play yet), and it happened a couple of times(few overall) that I miss a Badlands.

Does that ever happen to you guys, or am I unable to fetch properly?

[CabalTherapy]

Hey guys, Been goldfishing for quite a bit with the deck(0 tournament play yet), and it happened a couple of times(few overall) that I miss a Badlands.

Does that ever happen to you guys, or am I unable to fetch properly?

Hi, yes that has happen to me too. Therefore I cut one Therapy for a Badlands which plays out better than 13 lands. Ultimately, Badlands combines the two combo mana, so it is not surprising that
you want one in play. Nevertheless, I played 2 tournaments with TES this month and the mana base and more importantly the 3 necessary colors of the deck made me put the red spells back in the shelf.

[Lemnear]

Hey guys, Been goldfishing for quite a bit with the deck(0 tournament play yet), and it happened a couple of times(few overall) that I miss a Badlands.

Does that ever happen to you guys, or am I unable to fetch properly?

I dropped my 0.02$ on the matter within the last three pages. Badlands is pointless and I have a tough time understanding how one can miss Badlands other than for hilariously sketchy hands like Bloodstained Mire, Duress, Rite, Rite, LED, Wish, Wish.

[Pilhas]

I dropped my 0.02$ on the matter within the last three pages. Badlands is pointless and I have a tough time understanding how one can miss Badlands other than for hilariously sketchy hands like Bloodstained Mire, Duress, Rite, Rite, LED, Wish, Wish.

Funny enough, I had close to that hand the 3 times I missed it. Maybe it is just variance.

I Had Mire, therapy, Rite, Rite, LED, Wish, Probe x2 and I missed it for the tX BW, tx+1 2Black producing lands.
I just never want the 2nd Volcanic(In real games it will probably change).
It is also completely and entirely possible that I am playing it wrong, I am a noob with the deck after all.

[Lemnear]

Funny enough, I had close to that hand the 3 times I missed it. Maybe it is just variance.

I Had Mire, therapy, Rite, Rite, LED, Wish, Probe x2 and I missed it for the tX BW, tx+1 2Black producing lands.

its not surprising tbh as we already cornered this case as one of the few which make Badlands look decent, but depending on Draw/Play/OpponentsDeck and the shown/drawn card(s) to your first Probe, there is no guarentee that you even need the Badlands as every Mox/Petal/Land drawn or looking into a FoW-less hand, basically removes any need for Badlands immediately.

edit:
in extreme cases, you may even want to 'fetchland, go" for a turn, just to hope that your next drawstep + 2 Probes wield your second IMS to cast the Therapy + Wish into 14+ Goblins.

how did you play that hand?

[Pilhas]

its not surprising tbh as we already cornered this case as one of the few which make Badlands look decent, but depending on Draw/Play/OpponentsDeck and the shown/drawn card(s) to your first Probe, there is no guarentee that you even need the Badlands as every Mox/Petal/Land drawn or looking into a FoW-less hand, basically removes any need for Badlands immediately.

edit:
in extreme cases, you may even want to 'fetchland, go" for a turn, just to hope that your next drawstep + 2 Probes wield your second IMS to cast the Therapy + Wish into 14+ Goblins.

how did you play that hand?

I probed and found a Dark ritual. t2 peeled a petal from the top. I think I tried to go for a Ritual->Therapy->Petal->2xRite->LED>BW->Petition->AdN with 2 mana floating(RB) to try and win without tokens(just because I need constraints). IIRC I flipped ~6 can trips + empty + 2 tutor + discard, stopped at 4 life without fleeping a mana source.
Should I went for another line?
Really not sure if I should Probe on t1, if I do, it might be profitable to therapy on t1 of a swamp/sea, depending on the hand that I see .

[Bryant Cook]

The only reason I could see to justify Badlands is a basic Island, otherwise it's not needed.

[Pilhas]

The only reason I could see to justify Badlands is a basic Island, otherwise it's not needed.

Do you mean shaving a volc for a island and up the land count with the badlands? I only see that change with the shave of a mox and I am a fan of the moxen.

[Bryant Cook]

Do you mean shaving a volc for a island and up the land count with the badlands? I only see that change with the shave of a mox and I am a fan of the moxen.

I mean that Badlands is only acceptable when playing a basic Island, I'm not proving advise on running a suboptimal configuration. I wouldn't change the mana base at all personally.

[Lemnear]

I probed and found a Dark ritual. t2 peeled a petal from the top. I think I tried to go for a Ritual->Therapy->Petal->2xRite->LED>BW->Petition->AdN with 2 mana floating(RB) to try and win without tokens(just because I need constraints). IIRC I flipped ~6 can trips + empty + 2 tutor + discard, stopped at 4 life without fleeping a mana source.
Should I went for another line?
Really not sure if I should Probe on t1, if I do, it might be profitable to therapy on t1 of a swamp/sea, depending on the hand that I see .

Probe (1), Dark Ritual (2) for [BBB], Petal for [BBBR] (3), RoF (4) [BBBRR], RoF (5) [BBBRRRR], LED (6), Wish (7) break LED for [BBBBBBRR] left, Petition for Wish (8), Wish for ToA [BBBR] (9), ToA (10) was a possible playline. Just to mention it.

Even BW->DP->mainboard EtW->flashback Therapy should have won, no? You took the risky Path with a LED, 2 Rites, a Ritual and a Petal already burned which matters for the odds.

Essentially you found the second IMS as discussed and ergo the Badlands was pointless.

TL:DR
The deck was able to kill turn 2 if your opponent has no defense and you can drop 14+ Goblins if he has (therapy). You can even beat FoW + sweeper! Ask for more?

[d0nkey]

I run a badlands. I like it sometimes; other times, I don't like it.

But I only run it because I haven't picked up a second volcanic island yet. It IS sub-optimal, but it really isn't that big of a deal. BUT, if I owned to volcanic islands, I would cut it.

[Pilhas]

Probe (1), Dark Ritual (2) for [BBB], Petal for [BBBR] (3), RoF (4) [BBBRR], RoF (5) [BBBRRRR], LED (6), Wish (7) break LED for [BBBBBBRR] left, Petition for Wish (8), Wish for ToA [BBBR] (9), ToA (10) was a possible playline. Just to mention it.

Even BW->DP->mainboard EtW->flashback Therapy should have won, no? You took the risky Path with a LED, 2 Rites, a Ritual and a Petal already burned which matters for the odds.

Essentially you found the second IMS as discussed and ergo the Badlands was pointless.

TL:DR
The deck was able to kill turn 2 if your opponent has no defense and you can drop 14+ Goblins if he has (therapy). You can even beat FoW + sweeper! Ask for more?

The first line was not possible since I burned Probe in t1. My error starts there I think. I have the bad habbit of burning my probes and discard very early.
I always seem to forget that I can go for EtW and then flashback. I look to therapy as an Ant player :X

[Lemnear]

The first line was not possible since I burned Probe in t1. My error starts there I think. I have the bad habbit of burning my probes and discard very early.
I always seem to forget that I can go for EtW and then flashback. I look to therapy as an Ant player :X

It did, as the basic requirement for this hand to do anything mentionable is finding a second IMS. As lands don't help T1 if you draw them via Probes (leaving Petals and Moxen as only outs for a turn 1 combo) and fetching a Swamp/U.sea (even more reducing the number of Lands you can draw into) for some Probe + Therapy shenanigans doesn't cover your opponent drawing/cantrip into counter, going for the conservative "Fetchland, go" would have fared better and in this case even won the game turn 2.

I really hate it to see people burning Probe early in Storm as they make natural storm kills so damn easy to execute. Unless you play against Hatebears/Counterbalance/combo: Sit on Probes and discard as long as reasonable

[Bryant Cook]

I aggressively use my Probes, I am of a different play style than Peter.

I'd rather make proper decisions based on what my opponent is playing than potentially sit back and get burned. Not to mention that Probe could occasionally draw into the missing piece.

[LDX]

I aggressively use my Probes, I am of a different play style than Peter.

I'd rather make proper decisions based on what my opponent is playing than potentially sit back and get burned. Not to mention that Probe could occasionally draw into the missing piece.

But in that specific case, would you have played the Cabal Therapy?

I see a lot of ''early discard to save mana on combo turn'' vs ''grinding a bit more but make it safer discard''.

If you have a vacuum answer, I'll take it, but if not let's just talk according to the current discussion.

[Lemnear]

But in that specific case, would you have played the Cabal Therapy?

I see a lot of ''early discard to save mana on combo turn'' vs ''grinding a bit more but make it safer discard''.

If you have a vacuum answer, I'll take it, but if not let's just talk according to the current discussion.

mind that he held two Probes in his hand so he the option to Probe once and still kill his opponent turn two with the playline I mentioned earlier. For me it boils down to saving the Probes and holding on the fetch (aka not casting Therapy), mainly because his business spell is Wish and he likely goes for EtW here (while also having one more possible land to draw into for his drawstep and Probes). Its a bit different if the business spell was Infernal as you would care a lot less for stormcount

[Bryant Cook]

But in that specific case, would you have played the Cabal Therapy?

I see a lot of ''early discard to save mana on combo turn'' vs ''grinding a bit more but make it safer discard''.

If you have a vacuum answer, I'll take it, but if not let's just talk according to the current discussion.

I'd say that I "just fire off" my Probes 75-80% of the time. However, there are circumstances where that's not appropriate. My comment was directed at Peter's telling people that they should hold them more often, which is something I'm not sure if I agree with.

[LDX]

mind that he held two Probes in his hand so he the option to Probe once and still kill his opponent turn two with the playline I mentioned earlier. For me it boils down to saving the Probes and holding on the fetch (aka not casting Therapy), mainly because his business spell is Wish and he likely goes for EtW here (while also having one more possible land to draw into for his drawstep and Probes). Its a bit different if the business spell was Infernal as you would care a lot less for stormcount

Yeah, I became closer to you in that kind of thought, which is why I asked Bryant, as we know he has a different playstyle than yours.

I guess I'll make my own opinion on the styles, but so far it's been really heart breaking. Every time I see Bryant play on camera, all his moves seem natural and I'm like, whoo, I could have done that on my own, and what I couldn't have done / his more complex plays just seem to be ''my next levels'', if I may, like to see the features you should unlock with enough experience, literally (and as a metaphor too, I would guess). Mind you, I'm nowhere close to that level yet.

But your words are always shining bright of intelligence, and more importantly, they're limpid and clear: every single small thing you care to explain totally make sense right away. How you explain what motivates your thought process is candy for the mind, and I haven't seen so much clarity since some college professors I had. I tend to be let my brain lead me on a daily basis, why is which I'm leaning toward you.

Not that what Bryant does isn't motivated by thoughts or isn't rational, but that that process is still unknown to me. It's so natural and I couldn't know how to explain it, which is why I ask the questions.


I'd say that I "just fire off" my Probes 75-80% of the time. However, there are circumstances where that's not appropriate. My comment was directed at Peter's telling people that they should hold them more often, which is something I'm not sure if I agree with.

Yes, that I got it, but what about the discard? Most of the times, Probes won't take mana away. I wonder where you situate yourself in the ''speed at all cost/fear of top deck'' spectrum.

[Bryant Cook]

Not that what Bryant does isn't motivated by thoughts or isn't rational, but that that process is still unknown to me. It's so natural and I couldn't know how to explain it, which is why I ask the questions.
Yes, that I got it, but what about the discard? Most of the times, Probes won't take mana away. I wonder where you situate yourself in the ''speed at all cost/fear of top deck'' spectrum.

Peter and I also have very different roles when it comes to posting publicly. I rarely will help out the new/novice user, I'm much more interested in the decks next steps and configurations on the proper numbers.

I play discard differently based on the match-up, sometimes it's best to jam it to hit their Top on turn one. Sometimes you hold it to make their Brainstorms awkward.

[Bryant Cook]

Hand Generator is live: http://www.theepicstorm.com/#handgenerator

[d0nkey]

Hand Generator is live: http://www.theepicstorm.com/#handgenerator

This might be the best thing created for storm since infernal tutor

[LDX]

Hand Generator is live: http://www.theepicstorm.com/#handgenerator

This. Is. Awesome.

What's the purpose of it? Will you review our choices? Is it as a database to check the ''regular TES player'' against your own choices?

[Bryant Cook]

This. Is. Awesome.

What's the purpose of it? Will you review our choices? Is it as a database to check the ''regular TES player'' against your own choices?

The purpose is to get an idea of what opening hands look like for newer players, for more experienced players it's to get a better idea on how you perceive hands.
You can also submit hands which I will receive & sometimes comment back on if you should keep/mull and how to play them.

[Asthereal]

Hand Generator is live: http://www.theepicstorm.com/#handgenerator
Suggestion for a small change to the tool:
Maybe you can have it auto-enter your name and e-mail address again when you get a new hand after submitting the first?
Now I have to enter my contact info again for each hand, if I want to submit it, and that's a tad annoying. :wink:

Other than that, excellent tool! :smile:

[Lemnear]

This might be the best thing created for storm since infernal tutor

Don, have you submitted a hand of Ritual, Duress, Brainstorm, Delta, Delta, Ponder, Duress?

[Bryant Cook]

People sending me rude messages through a card form, real nice. I hope you get that penis enlargement you were attempting to achieve.

[davelin]

Cool tool. I submitted a no-land hand that I still think is an easy keep but curious on your thoughts.

[bjholmes3]

People sending me rude messages through a card form, real nice. I hope you get that penis enlargement you were attempting to achieve.

People do that on the internet?

Thanks again for the tool though, it's quite awesome. It's a nice break from editing primers on mobile :V

[d0nkey]

Don, have you submitted a hand of Ritual, Duress, Brainstorm, Delta, Delta, Ponder, Duress?

No but I mulligan'd until I got ritual, ritual, ad nauseum just for fun.

[Lemnear]

Bryant shared a very disturbing Submission with me this morning. I really wonder what's wrong with some peeps

[Spam]

Some people are just full of S*#×~§

[bhsman]

That's pretty shitty of people; is there a way to ban certain emails/IP addresses as a result?

[Bryant Cook]

It's not that I'm upset, just kind of disappointed in members of the community.

When people submit, I do receive their IPs along with various other information like their longitude/latitude and most likely location (Seattle for example). It's not exactly a secret to whom some of these individuals are.

In other news, who else here will be storming this weekend at the invitational?

[Doishy]

I love the Tool Bryant despite not being an actual storm player myself (DDFT for me :) ).
I hope that the number of people 'abusing' the tool is very much overshadowed by those using it for its intended purpose.
Thank you for coming up with it!

[d0nkey]

It's not that I'm upset, just kind of disappointed in members of the community.

When people submit, I do receive their IPs along with various other information like their longitude/latitude and most likely location (Seattle for example). It's not exactly a secret to whom some of these individuals are.

In other news, who else here will be storming this weekend at the invitational?

I won't be at the invi, but I will be storming at the GP Seattle in November.

[SeoHyun]

How are people feeling about Pyroclasm versus Massacre? I'm not sure which one I want to play at the 5k tomorrow.

[Alix444]

How are people feeling about Pyroclasm versus Massacre? I'm not sure which one I want to play at the 5k tomorrow.

I think it is pretty reasonable to expect more of that 4c loam which plays maindeck Teeg, so I would lean towards pyroclasm.

[Bryant Cook]

Mailbox is up: http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-3/

[thefringthing]

Robust, up-to-date metagame statistics are hard to come by, but by my count something like 47% of the field plays Wasteland. Among decks that finish near the top of big tournaments, that number is more like 53%. At what point, if any, would it make sense to start pre-boarding against Wasteland with +1 Bayou, -1 Ponder? (I'd submit this to the mailbox, but I'm interested in hearing other opinions in addition to Bryant's. )

[Final Fortune]

I don't think Wasteland is that big of a deal as long as you sit on Fetchlands, right now Grixis with Cabal Therapy is a greater threat and I think that means more Chrome Mox for speed.

[Bryant Cook]

I could be wrong, but 47% seems low in comparison to the past. I haven't actually seen Wastelands often recently. If the Wastelands are coming from Lands or Death & Taxes those are favorable match-ups anyway.

[Bryant Cook]

Xantid Swarm just isn't very good in this metagame:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/xantid-swarm-vs-the-metagame/

[Lemnear]

Xantid Swarm just isn't very good in this metagame:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/xantid-swarm-vs-the-metagame/

...and the new mulligan rule is even worse. Why? Read on! (http://www.theepicstorm.com/heart-of-the-storm-the-vancouver-mulligan/)

[Alix444]

Xantid Swarm just isn't very good in this metagame:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/xantid-swarm-vs-the-metagame/

I honestly agree with all of your points, but I think you are missing one. Against Miracles I believe they are most likely leaving in terminus instead of swords since terminus can handle goblins. So if our plan against miracles really is to board out ponders, mulligan aggressively and try to make goblins by T2 I would say swarm has value in that matchup. Now obviously even if one agrees with my point it still could be moot if someone decides that a) they don't need more slots against miracles or b) they don't think it is a large enough percent of the metagame.

A well timed article as I have been straining my brain on ways to get away from green, at this point I don't think it is possible to neglect it entirely, but I will keep brainstorming. :cool:

[Bryant Cook]

I honestly agree with all of your points, but I think you are missing one. Against Miracles I believe they are most likely leaving in terminus instead of swords since terminus can handle goblins. So if our plan against miracles really is to board out ponders, mulligan aggressively and try to make goblins by T2 I would say swarm has value in that matchup. Now obviously even if one agrees with my point it still could be moot if someone decides that a) they don't need more slots against miracles or b) they don't think it is a large enough percent of the metagame.

A well timed article as I have been straining my brain on ways to get away from green, at this point I don't think it is possible to neglect it entirely, but I will keep brainstorming. :cool:

The game plan against Miracles isn't to make Goblins.

[Alix444]

That's weird I could have sworn I heard you proclaim that. Regardless of who said it, it is one of our highest win percent lines for games on the draw. Furthermore, going goblins or not, swarm can't discounted in the miracles match because "counterbalance."

[Bryant Cook]

That's weird I could have sworn I heard you proclaim that. Regardless of who said it, it is one of our highest win percent lines for games on the draw. Furthermore, going goblins or not, swarm can't discounted in the miracles match because "counterbalance."

I never said it was bad against Miracles, it's fine there because of Sensei's Divining Top but does absolutely nothing against Counterbalance. Which is a fact.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi, I'll throw my opinión regarding Xantid to whom may interest:

As I'm preparing to the next MKM series I'm in testing process of a Storm variant, my current TES variant is like Bryant but -1 Duress + 3rd C.Moxen main,
the first thing I tested was Surgical Extraction however it is not effective as the Opp. can play in response DTT...so I'm in testing process of Extirpate as a 2 Of.
As I play only 6 discard spells main I play 2 more duress in Side which I bring vs blue mainly.

I took SlothTheDark Approach as a start looking the good results he got in Lille at its simplests is +2 Krosan +3 A.D + 2Extirpate + 2Pyro vs Miracles and I'm quite sure that also SDT made a good job for him..., I took out pyro because it seems more based once PiF is resolved AND in conjunction with SDT and because TES has a more A.N. focused approach. However I'm taking my Old TNT build to start testing once I finish with TES and in here I'll likely copy the strategy from SloshTheDark entirely adding 2 Pyro to the approach.

As said I still haven't tested Extirpate but surgical does a good job vs both Miracles and Omnitell. - sure unless DTT is played in response... I have good feelings at least in TNT regarding Extirpate.

This is my current TES Side:

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
1 Void Snare
2 Duress
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition
2 Extirpate

I don't have both Massacre and Pyroclasm as I find them redundant - I already have Void snare vs Teeg. and I also prefer to not to play CoV as I still haven't any need of it because of the speed 3 C.M provides me.

As said just my opinion.
Please do not reply me as I'm not interested in any opinion.

[Final Fortune]

Removing Xantid Swarm isn't a surprising decision, I believed then and continue to think now that the deck needs SB disruption that's more relevant in the aggro-control match ups because you have to start off by Duressing your opponent in order to protect your hand from varied hate. We're basically back to the old BUG Delver metagame, except Grixis Delver is even faster with Cabal Therapy and Lightning Bolt.

Not a big fan of SBing Duress tho', I'd rather have a second Thoughtseize - life loss is only a problem after you've cast Ad Nauseam, which means you at least put yourself in a position to win the game if you got there.

[Bryant Cook]

Removing Xantid Swarm isn't a surprising decision, I believed then and continue to think now that the deck needs SB disruption that's more relevant in the aggro-control match ups because you have to start off by Duressing your opponent in order to protect your hand from varied hate. We're basically back to the old BUG Delver metagame, except Grixis Delver is even faster with Cabal Therapy and Lightning Bolt.

Not a big fan of SBing Duress tho', I'd rather have a second Thoughtseize - life loss is only a problem after you've cast Ad Nauseam, which means you at least put yourself in a position to win the game if you got there.

Like I mentioned in the article, I'm not sure if a second Disruption spell for the D&T matchup is better yet. It might be considering this is my current plan:

-3 Duress
-3 Ponder

+1 Bayou
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Void Snare
+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Thoughtseize

If we add in a second Thoughtseize over the Duress you can also do -1 Ponder (4th) +1 Thoughtseize (2nd).

[MGB]

Bryant did you get your Brainstorm issue sorted out? I felt pretty bad about your loss, I'm just wondering if you found a suitable replacement.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant did you get your Brainstorm issue sorted out? I felt pretty bad about your loss, I'm just wondering if you found a suitable replacement.

I did.

[movadomk5]

Like I mentioned in the article, I'm not sure if a second Disruption spell for the D&T matchup is better yet. It might be considering this is my current plan:

-3 Duress
-3 Ponder

+1 Bayou
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Void Snare
+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Thoughtseize

If we add in a second Thoughtseize over the Duress you can also do -1 Ponder (4th) +1 Thoughtseize (2nd).

You have probably explained this before but why do you bring in Pyroclasm instead of having it as a wish target? I have always found myself being able to wish for it/massacre and win the game instead of hoping to draw it.

[Bryant Cook]

You have probably explained this before but why do you bring in Pyroclasm instead of having it as a wish target? I have always found myself being able to wish for it/massacre and win the game instead of hoping to draw it.

Because if you have Massacre in your sideboard you don't need Pyroclasm there. It's redundant.

[movadomk5]

Because if you have Massacre in your sideboard you don't need Pyroclasm there. It's redundant.

I meant why do you bring it in instead of leaving it as a wish target. I'm guessing it has shown it better to open with it or draw it then try and wish for it.

(also I understand you have exchanged massacre for Pyroclasm due to it being better in the other non white match ups)

[LDX]

I meant why do you bring it in instead of leaving it as a wish target. I'm guessing it has shown it better to open with it or draw it then try and wish for it.

(also I understand you have exchanged massacre for Pyroclasm due to it being better in the other non white match ups)

He was answering you properly. He listed changes according to his latest list, shown in the Xantid article, which includes both Pyroclasm and Massacre in the sideboard. If you board Pyroclasm in, you still have Massacre in the wish board, thus the redundancy. You're welcome. :smile:

[movadomk5]

You have probably explained this before but why do you bring in Pyroclasm instead of having it as a wish target? I have always found myself being able to wish for it/massacre and win the game instead of hoping to draw it.


He was answering you properly. He listed changes according to his latest list, shown in the Xantid article, which includes both Pyroclasm and Massacre in the sideboard. If you board Pyroclasm in, you still have Massacre in the wish board, thus the redundancy. You're welcome. :smile:

Oops I totally overlooked that. Thanks

[thefringthing]

Maybe it's time to look over the big list of marginally playable storm cards to see if there's something that stands out as valuable against Miracles and Grixis/RUG Delver as an alternative to the sideboard Duress. Teferi's Realm beats a Counterbalance if you can somehow cast it and get it to resolve!

[Bryant Cook]

Live: http://www.theepicstorm.com/twitch-tv/

[Alix444]

You have probably explained this before but why do you bring in Pyroclasm instead of having it as a wish target? I have always found myself being able to wish for it/massacre and win the game instead of hoping to draw it.

Because if you are casting burning wish and pyroclasm in the same turn then a couple things are likely to be true:
1) You will be down on two cards and still probably taking the whole turn to do this..
2) You probably have taken a lot of damage.
3) Your Ad Nauseam has a really low success rate.
4) Your Empty the Warrens will be for like 4 goblins.

Basically casting your action spells defensively typically pretty bad. Their are situations where it is correct, but it's rarer than you probably think.

[thefringthing]

I think I'm settled on -3 Xantid Swarm +2 Carpet of Flowers +1 Thoughtseize for tomorrow.

[Bryant Cook]

I wouldnt play Carpet right now either.

• It's awful against Omnitell.
• The best tempo deck in the format (Grixis Delver) doesn't care about it due to Deathrite Shaman. (This is also supposed to be where Carpet is best)
• Against Miracles it doesn't do anything about the two cards we care for most - Sensei's Divining Top & Counterbalance.

[thefringthing]

Fair points. DRS is definitely a big factor that I hadn't considered. That fourth Duress just seems so lackluster, though.

[Bryant Cook]

It's not, especially against Omnitell. If I had room for 12 discard spells in that match-up, I'd run them all.

Let last night I came up with this sideboard (Bayou is in the MD over the 4th Bloodstained Mire):

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition

Two sweepers felt redundant, Dread is really good against D&T now due to Vryn Wingmare being another X/1. I wanted two Thoughtseize so I could swap them in for match-ups where Duress is bad. I like how this one looks much more.

[ManCharm]

Just for the fun of it, would there be any huge detriment to playing a second ad nauseam in the sideboard to bring in over one of the xantid swarm spots? If you side out ETW it makes for a miniscule change in your decks CMC. Just curious what others think

[thefringthing]

@ManCharm: Not being safe to flip on five seems a bit bad. I'd sooner play a second Tendrils so I could have one main and one board in some matchups.

Tournament Report from a six round $1K follows.

R1
G1 BUG Delver keeps six. I turn one him with Probe into Ponder, shuffle, hit Infernal Tutor.
G2 He goes to five, I make goblins on turn two and he doesn't find any out.
1-0

R2
G1 Miracles plays first and keeps Clique, Force, Snapcaster, and some lands. I get his Force, he Cliques my Burning Wish, I draw into Infernal Tutor and get Burning Wish to Tendrils him.
G2 He keeps Snapcaster, Counterspell, Pyroblast, Surgical, Clique, and lands. I Probe and Therapy his Counterspell on turn one and Empty for eight on turn two. He bricks on finding a Terminus or his EE.
2-0

R3
G1 Omni has two Cunning Wishes, a Force, a tentacle monster, a Dig, and lands. I get cute and Therapy the Emrakul thinking to blank the Dig and ensure I survive to the next turn. I draw all bricks and he makes an Omniscience.
G2 He has Show and Tell, Brainstorm, Preordain, Spell Pierce, Island when I probe him. This one goes super long. He ends up making an Omniscience but not doing anything with it for several turns. Eventually he finds a Preordain and kills me with it, while he was dead on my turn to my two Rites, a Lotus Petal, and a Burning Wish Brainstormed to the top of my library.
2-1

R4
G1 I know my opponent is on Miracles. I get a game loss for a deck registration error since I don't know the name of that bounce spell we can Wish for. (Protip: It isn't called "Vapor Snag" apparently.)
G2 I see he has Force, make four Empty the Warrenses, he counters one. I beat him down until he stabilizes with two Mentors, then kill him with Tendrils.
G3 This one might be the most embarassing match of Legacy ever played. A brick and a houseplant would have played this game more accurately than we did. He runs out turn one Pithing Needle, almost names Lotus Petal, thinks better of it and names Polluted Delta. Meanwhile I kept a one-lander with a Delta. I rip Mire and Duress his Force. My next draw is another Delta. I eventually rip Abrupt Decay which I cast off Petal to turn on my two Deltas. Meanwhile, he's played Meddling Mage on Grapeshot, which isn't in my 75. I also get the sense that he thinks my deck has counterspells in it. Eventually I'm down to just a Therapy, a Ritual, and Burning Wish. I lose a turn early not knowing I'm (very likely) dead on board since I didn't realize the tokens Mentor makes also have prowess.
2-2

R5
Bye. Apparently all the other X-2s dropped not thinking there'd be only two 4-0s.

R6
Win and in versus 4-Colour Loam. Somehow. There were some weird draws and premature drops.
G1 He mulligans to oblivion and has no relevant cards, I have to Therapy myself to get rid of an uncastable Brainstorm to get hellbent.
G2 He has nothing, I die to Ad Nauseam from 15 with a mana up because this deck is garbage and no one should ever consider playing it.*
G3 I keep a suspect hand, brick twice, fail to play out my zero drops. He makes Chalice on zero into Chalice on one into Chalice on two into Gaddock Teeg into Trinisphere further confirming that he's the luckiest guy in the whole world. He would go on to beat the Omni guy by putting in his singleton Trinisphere with a Show and Tell. Guy should buy a whole stack of lottery tickets I guess.

*Still tilted.

The zero Swarm sideboard was good except that the Massacre was never relevant. There were two Elves players and no Death and Taxes, so the Pyroclasm felt good even though I never cast it. Meta was massively dominated by Grixis decks.

[bjholmes3]

So, turns out this deck is very well suited to my meta. I'm on a monthly budget but I want to get this together asap. I have one LED, 4 Deltas, and 3 Tarns (which will have to do for now), along with shocklands which might be a necessary evil. Additionally, my LGS is allowing 10 proxies.

What pieces can I skimp on in order to make the deck work for under 100 using the conditions outlined above, and in which order should I proceed from there?

I apologize for the annoying questions, I'm really bad at deck building. :D

[thefringthing]

What pieces can I skimp on in order to make the deck work for under 100 using the conditions outlined above, and in which order should I proceed from there? If you proxy 2 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 3 Lion's Eye Diamond, 1 Bayou, 2 Bloodstained Mire, the rest of the deck is relatively inexpensive. Probably more than $100 but not a whole lot more.

[Spam]

It's not, especially against Omnitell. If I had room for 12 discard spells in that match-up, I'd run them all.

Let last night I came up with this sideboard (Bayou is in the MD over the 4th Bloodstained Mire):

3Abrupt Decay
2Chain of Vapor
2Dread of Night
2Thoughtseize
1Void Snare
1Pyroclasm
1Past in Flames
1Empty the Warrens
1Tendrils of Agony
1Dark Petition

Two sweepers felt redundant, Dread is really good against D&T now due to Vryn Wingmare being another X/1. I wanted two Thoughtseize so I could swap them in for match-ups where Duress is bad. I like how this one looks much more.

I like the idea. Going up to nine discard effects post board could also be a viable option against other combo decks and miracle, maybe? I find myself needing more of them post board where whe have to stop their combo and remove counters.

[KenCoghlanIII]

So here's a question for all of you. I've been playing many Storm variants for a while now (ANT, DDFT, Tin Fins) and have recently been trying out TES. I have always heard that TES is more explosive/a turn or two faster than ANT, but doesn't have the same amount of protection or late game power as ANT. I'm not quite understanding this assessment. Yes, TES is (depending) more explosive and a turn or two faster, but I don't quite grasp how it offers less protection or late game play. As I see it, both decks run the same amount of discard spells and cantrips (+/- the two flex spots in ANT, taken up by Preordain/SDT/Grim Tutor). There's your protection, and even your late game play in the form of cantrips and such.

Not only that, but TES runs a total of 8 tutors, making it more redundant. Easier to draw one late in the game (say, after your hand has been ripped apart via Cabal Therapy ala Grixis Delver) tutor for PiF and go from there. Then there's the whole Wish-Board aspect of TES, making it more resilient to hate G1 and on, and protected from Surgical to an extent that ANT can't hope to achieve.

Then there are the lines of play. As we all know, the best part about TES (aside from being the best AdNaus deck out there) is that you don't have to get to 10 Storm to close out the game. Even five or six Storm can produce enough Goblins to get there. So many more paths to victory. Grave hate does nearly nothing against this deck, aside from the few times you may have to resort to PiF or actually care about Rite of Flame count (which is far less crucial than thresh for Cabal Ritual, if you ask me), unlike ANT. They now have to either Natural Tendrils or remove the hate before continuing. How isn't this offering more protection?

The way I see it, TES is just a harder deck to play. Many more lines to consider, of course, plus the juggling of three colors as early as turn one. ANT doesn't have more protection (discard) spells than us, so how are they more protected? They don't have as many tutors as us, so they are less likely to draw them when they need to win the top deck war (late game, maybe?). They have no access to a Wish Board, so how do they fight G1 hate that some decks offer?

I've seen the top of the mountain, and it is good. Deep beneath the ice, beneath the soil and the rock, Dominaria's fire still burned hot. And that fire's name is The Epic Storm.

[wonderPreaux]

So here's a question for all of you. I've been playing many Storm variants for a while now (ANT, DDFT, Tin Fins) and have recently been trying out TES. I have always heard that TES is more explosive/a turn or two faster than ANT, but doesn't have the same amount of protection or late game power as ANT. I'm not quite understanding this assessment. Yes, TES is (depending) more explosive and a turn or two faster, but I don't quite grasp how it offers less protection or late game play. As I see it, both decks run the same amount of discard spells and cantrips (+/- the two flex spots in ANT, taken up by Preordain/SDT/Grim Tutor). There's your protection, and even your late game play in the form of cantrips and such.

Not only that, but TES runs a total of 8 tutors, making it more redundant. Easier to draw one late in the game (say, after your hand has been ripped apart via Cabal Therapy ala Grixis Delver) tutor for PiF and go from there. Then there's the whole Wish-Board aspect of TES, making it more resilient to hate G1 and on, and protected from Surgical to an extent that ANT can't hope to achieve.

Then there are the lines of play. As we all know, the best part about TES (aside from being the best AdNaus deck out there) is that you don't have to get to 10 Storm to close out the game. Even five or six Storm can produce enough Goblins to get there. So many more paths to victory. Grave hate does nearly nothing against this deck, aside from the few times you may have to resort to PiF or actually care about Rite of Flame count (which is far less crucial than thresh for Cabal Ritual, if you ask me), unlike ANT. They now have to either Natural Tendrils or remove the hate before continuing. How isn't this offering more protection?

The way I see it, TES is just a harder deck to play. Many more lines to consider, of course, plus the juggling of three colors as early as turn one. ANT doesn't have more protection (discard) spells than us, so how are they more protected? They don't have as many tutors as us, so they are less likely to draw them when they need to win the top deck war (late game, maybe?). They have no access to a Wish Board, so how do they fight G1 hate that some decks offer?

I've seen the top of the mountain, and it is good. Deep beneath the ice, beneath the soil and the rock, Dominaria's fire still burned hot. And that fire's name is The Epic Storm.

First, I think it's weird that you cite the ease of Wishing for PiF as evidence of late game strength and then follow by saying grave hate does nothing to TES. You can't have your cake and then say cake-hate does nothing to you.

Second, EtW is consistently getting weaker as the meta develops more towards blue-centric control and combo. EtW can steal games, but there's an increasing proportion of games where innocent Goblins meet their doom due to being Terminused, annihilated, or lost in combat due to other more incrementally deployed tokens. Moreover, EtW actively gets worse as games progress; having an extra storm option can be useful, but options are only as good as their utility.

Third, TES is better than ANT at handling Surgical, but it's not something "ANT can't hope to achieve" and it's not even that big of a deal. If you're on TES and suspect Surgical, you often have to side ToA in against UBx anyway, ANT can achieve the same protection by siding in a singleton Wish, not even that different. ANT also has Ad Nauseam post-board, and Dark Petition to reduce the impact of Extraction on IT.

Regarding the overall point of late game play, you're missing the impact that deck construction plays and you're looking at terms like "protection" in too linear and concrete a fashion.

Here's a big concept to consider: TES plays fewer lands. Lands are a huge part of late game play because they give you a bigger initial mana base to work with, they decrease the opportunity cost of using cantrips to build storm, reduce vulnerability to soft counters like Daze, and increase in value with every untap step. Also, Wishes and Tutors, in multiples, are way more awkward to resolve than cantrips, especially when you have fewer lands to even cast such cards. I'm pretty sure I could find at least 4-5 features in the past year or two where Bryant just loses to an inability to find lands, if you're looking for examples.

Taking it further, consider the Chess concept of "Zugzwang", or, "compulsion to move". Zugzwang is when, by the rules of chess, you must complete a move, but every possible move leads to a worse overall position. In Storm vs. Control, you are often forced to wait against multiple counters to assemble a hand, and the hand limit creates the same "Zugzwang" issue; you are forced to play or discard a card and it leave you worse off. Fewer lands means it's harder to parlay your 8-card hand into a win because you rely more on rituals resolving and cant easily use cantrips, you also reach the zugzwang point faster because you get, on average, fewer lands to lay down, and TES swaps cantrips for Wishes, which can't find lands. Also, ANT's cantrips can find acceleration and are cheaper compared to chains of spells that involved multiple Wishes/Tutors. As an aside, ANT can play SDT, which is insane in control because it obliterates the whole "Zugzwang" issue, and doubles as a Storm engine.

In terms of late game draws, I don't think TES is all that impressive, compared to ANT, either. Imagine drawing a Chrome Mox in a topdeck situation, for instance, or the fact that only the third or 4th Rite of Flame can compete with the mana production offered by Cabal Ritual or Rain of Filth. TES's primary bomb, Ad Nauseam, also tends to get worse over a long game, whereas ANT can prepare itself for natural Storm more easily by leaning on PiF. While it's easy to point at ANT and say it's so linear and vulnerable to GY hate, TES's "many more paths to victory" often get hated on by the opponent simply developing a board.

TES and ANT are pretty much trading inflections of efficiency. TES shortcuts land development and Storm count to try and pickup more t1/t2 combos, ANT goes for more manipulation of cantrips/GY/Storm to achieve a better grind game. Pick the option that suits your meta better.

[thefringthing]

Let last night I came up with this sideboard (Bayou is in the MD over the 4th Bloodstained Mire):

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition


What would you play in a metagame where Death and Taxes is totally absent? (I haven't seen anyone playing it in probably a year or more. Then again I haven't been playing a tonne.) Move the Bayou back out and toss in Diminishing Returns or something?

[Final Fortune]

Protection isn't just about discard or the number of lands, its about basic lands being able to chain cantrips off an Island or cast all disruption and rituals off a Swamp. The counter argument vs PIF is kind of inane tho', people SB graveyard hate in for your main Storm engine and Threshold Cabal Rituals and not your wish targets.

Total land count is discretionary, you can run 14/1 land/Mox or whatever.

[Bryant Cook]

I find the land count thing in ANT's favor kind of funny, when the most successful ANT list in the last 6 months have been running 14 while TES runs 13 (with one in the sideboard) and two Chrome Mox. It's incredibly difficult to notice an actual difference in the land count here.

[Togores]

That ant plays 14 lands and its the most succesfull is not true. Just Caleb decklist plays 14. All the lists from Gp Lille and also the one who won the mkm Rome played 15 lands.
That is just 1 played vs all the other succesfull lists, kais, sloshs, martins and wagners list for example.

[Spam]

What would you play in a metagame where Death and Taxes is totally absent? (I haven't seen anyone playing it in probably a year or more. Then again I haven't been playing a tonne.) Move the Bayou back out and toss in Diminishing Returns or something?
Diminishing return is not an option since the deck doesn't run silence anymore.

I've always finded ANT to be more prepared to beat delver decks. Having basics makes them ignore wasteland for the most part, and PiF allows to win even at very low life. TES has more problems do to Ad Nauseam.
Goblins can still be good against miracles. Sure, they have terminus, but on turn 1/2 they are still pretty hard to answer.

Edit.
The biggest issue right now is not about TES or ANT being a better choice, but why the hell you're not running a deck with DIG. Last week I picked up Omnitell (gh..)and it felt like cheating.

[Togores]

I played at the gp lille omni just because as you say dig is like cheating. But is not a really funny deck like storm.
Hope they ban dig. And then I have not to make this kind of choice.

Now ant is getting a littl worser due to grixis delver with chaman being the n1 delver deck.


Also on dimishing. I would only play it if my meta is full of monoblack pox and jund. hard discard decks with slow clock and no counters (reb excluded).

[Lemnear]

That ant plays 14 lands and its the most succesfull is not true. Just Caleb decklist plays 14. All the lists from Gp Lille and also the one who won the mkm Rome played 15 lands.
That is just 1 played vs all the other succesfull lists, kais, sloshs, martins and wagners list for example.

But you are sure aware that the Islands gets usually boarded out if you don't play against Wasteland postboard. With that being said: I still love 14 lands :)


I've always finded ANT to be more prepared to beat delver decks. Having basics makes them ignore wasteland for the most part, and PiF allows to win even at very low life. TES has more problems do to Ad Nauseam.
Goblins can still be good against miracles. Sure, they have terminus, but on turn 1/2 they are still pretty hard to answer.

Its a trinity of more lands overall, basic lands and stronger rituals which makes the difference against tempo decks and not the engine you use in the end. Pointing to lifeloss when discussing TES vs. Delver is ignoring the decks flexible nature to evade the lifepoint-topic completely via EtW, PIF or, my favorite, the cantrip-chain. I really wish some people would stop forcing the deck into the belcher-mode against tempo, but realize that you can ignore half their deck by simply giving no target for their cheap, early interaction

[Spam]

I've also noticed how grixis delver is becoming the best choice. In the right hand that deck cuts everything like butter.

[ThomasDowd]

RE: swarm

Could always add a Pithing needle?

but other than Top and Deathrite I can't think of any other high impact targets.

[Bryant Cook]

Storm Hands II - http://www.theepicstorm.com/storm-hands-2/

[Alix444]

Storm Hands II - http://www.theepicstorm.com/storm-hands-2/

Hand: Ponder, Underground Sea, Polluted Delta, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual and Rite of Flame.

Would I keep this hand? Yes.

How to play: Your Ponder here would ideally find disruption AND a Tutor effect, but it has all the mana you need. Risk versus reward.

^^For this hand I have a couple questions. If you find just a tutor and two duals, are you just going to go for it? If you find discard and a cantrip I assume you cast discard offensively or defensively based on the second cantrip?

[jandax]

R6
Win and in versus 4-Colour Loam. Somehow. There were some weird draws and premature drops.
G1 He mulligans to oblivion and has no relevant cards, I have to Therapy myself to get rid of an uncastable Brainstorm to get hellbent.
G2 He has nothing, I die to Ad Nauseam from 15 with a mana up because this deck is garbage and no one should ever consider playing it.*
G3 I keep a suspect hand, brick twice, fail to play out my zero drops. He makes Chalice on zero into Chalice on one into Chalice on two into Gaddock Teeg into Trinisphere further confirming that he's the luckiest guy in the whole world. He would go on to beat the Omni guy by putting in his singleton Trinisphere with a Show and Tell. Guy should buy a whole stack of lottery tickets I guess.

*Still tilted.

The zero Swarm sideboard was good except that the Massacre was never relevant. There were two Elves players and no Death and Taxes, so the Pyroclasm felt good even though I never cast it. Meta was massively dominated by Grixis decks.

So, you let your opp resolve a Gaddock through chalice on two?

tilting seems fair

[Dr_D]

So, you let your opp resolve a Gaddock through chalice on two?

tilting seems fair

4C Loam runs GSZ.

[Bryant Cook]

Hand: Ponder, Underground Sea, Polluted Delta, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual and Rite of Flame.

Would I keep this hand? Yes.

How to play: Your Ponder here would ideally find disruption AND a Tutor effect, but it has all the mana you need. Risk versus reward.

^^For this hand I have a couple questions. If you find just a tutor and two duals, are you just going to go for it? If you find discard and a cantrip I assume you cast discard offensively or defensively based on the second cantrip?

Yes. I would probably hold the discard spell (depending on the match-up) until I found business.

[Lemnear]

Hand: Ponder, Underground Sea, Polluted Delta, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual and Rite of Flame.

Would I keep this hand? Yes.

How to play: Your Ponder here would ideally find disruption AND a Tutor effect, but it has all the mana you need. Risk versus reward.

^^For this hand I have a couple questions. If you find just a tutor and two duals, are you just going to go for it? If you find discard and a cantrip I assume you cast discard offensively or defensively based on the second cantrip?

I strongly disagree with the idea to use Ponder for finding TWO cards and I made this clear in the TES FB group. With this hand you're either pushing all-in by going for a Tutor with a turn 1 Ponder or, if you know that you are playing against a counter in hand (game 2 or 3), you slowroll with your Ponder till you find more business and/or protection naturally so you know what to look for with the Ponder

[Reagens]

It's not, especially against Omnitell. If I had room for 12 discard spells in that match-up, I'd run them all.

Let last night I came up with this sideboard (Bayou is in the MD over the 4th Bloodstained Mire):

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition

Two sweepers felt redundant, Dread is really good against D&T now due to Vryn Wingmare being another X/1. I wanted two Thoughtseize so I could swap them in for match-ups where Duress is bad. I like how this one looks much more.

Since chalice game 1 is a thing I wondered if you considered meltdown in the sideboard. It hits quite a few things apart from chalice (canonist comes to mind) and has the nice variable casting cost/sweeping thing.
My only concern is that it might be too clunky to be really useful.

[Bryant Cook]

Since chalice game 1 is a thing I wondered if you considered meltdown in the sideboard. It hits quite a few things apart from chalice (canonist comes to mind) and has the nice variable casting cost/sweeping thing.
My only concern is that it might be too clunky to be really useful.

It's not really a thing. Cannonist is answered by Void Snare/Pyroclasm/Massacre. If you happpen to see a Chalice on game one, accept your loss or try to make Goblins through it and then shuffle up for game two. It's not something common enough to warrant sideboard space.

[thefringthing]

It's not really a thing.Maybe the Southern Ontario metagame is just really weird, but I see more game one Chalice decks than Death & Taxes by far.

[Bryant Cook]

Maybe the Southern Ontario metagame is just really weird, but I see more game one Chalice decks than Death & Taxes by far.

I build my lists for large events, not local metagames.

[thefringthing]

I build my lists for large events, not local metagames.

GP Lille T16 + SCG DC T16: 6% Death & Taxes, 6% Aggro Loam (usually plays Chalice main)
SCG DC Day 2: 5% Death & Taxes, 4% MUD (plays Chalice main)
MTGGoldFish has Merfolk (often plays Chalice main nowadays) and MUD listed ahead of Death & Taxes. (Not sure where their stats come from; looks like mostly MTGO plus some smaller events.)

It seems to me that maindeck Chalice is at least neck and neck with Death & Taxes, and plausibly more common anywhere that both MUD and Aggro Loam people show up.

[Lemnear]

GP Lille T16 + SCG DC T16: 6% Death & Taxes, 6% Aggro Loam (usually plays Chalice main)
SCG DC Day 2: 5% Death & Taxes, 4% MUD (plays Chalice main)
MTGGoldFish has Merfolk (often plays Chalice main nowadays) and MUD listed ahead of Death & Taxes. (Not sure where their stats come from; looks like mostly MTGO plus some smaller events.)

It seems to me that maindeck Chalice is at least neck and neck with Death & Taxes, and plausibly more common anywhere that both MUD and Aggro Loam people show up.

This also appeared in my metagame analysis made this week. The upcoming article will adress the matter, but I have some issues at work which delayed it

[Asthereal]

I strongly disagree with the idea to use Ponder for finding TWO cards and I made this clear in the TES FB group. With this hand you're either pushing all-in by going for a Tutor with a turn 1 Ponder or, if you know that you are playing against a counter in hand (game 2 or 3), you slowroll with your Ponder till you find more business and/or protection naturally so you know what to look for with the Ponder
What would you suggest?

T1. Delta, go.
T2. See what you draw, then play Sea into Ponder, proceed from there?

[Bryant Cook]

GP Lille T16 + SCG DC T16: 6% Death & Taxes, 6% Aggro Loam (usually plays Chalice main)
SCG DC Day 2: 5% Death & Taxes, 4% MUD (plays Chalice main)
MTGGoldFish has Merfolk (often plays Chalice main nowadays) and MUD listed ahead of Death & Taxes. (Not sure where their stats come from; looks like mostly MTGO plus some smaller events.)

It seems to me that maindeck Chalice is at least neck and neck with Death & Taxes, and plausibly more common anywhere that both MUD and Aggro Loam people show up.

Are you suggesting we change our deck for 6% of the metagame? Seems ridiculous. Win the die roll or have the opposite accelerants that Chalice is shutting off before making Goblins, if neither is an option, shuffle up for game two. You can't beat everything game one, for instance, ANT can't beat a MD Gaddock Teeg. Get over it and concentrate on the next two.

[thefringthing]

Are you suggesting we change our deck for 6% of the metagame?Isn't that exactly what running two Dread of Night in the sideboard is?

[Bryant Cook]

Isn't that exactly what running two Dread of Night in the sideboard is?

Look at top 8 results, do you see Chalice decks in there? Because I don't. If you took pure numbers of Death & Taxes players that enter a room compared to MUD players, I would be shocked if they were even. Death & Taxes is more likely to top 8 an event, which is why I'm more prepared for it. If you would like to run something else there for your metagame, be my guest, but I don't think running Meltdown, Shattering Spree or Pulverize is going to honestly help you there at all.

[Lemnear]

What would you suggest?

T1. Delta, go.
T2. See what you draw, then play Sea into Ponder, proceed from there?

More like: "delta, go" and just see IF you need protection at all (which is not the case if your opponents opens with Forest->NettleSentinel or Plains->Vial) and IF you draw into Protection/Tutor/AN/EtW naturally without exposing yourself to wasteland

[Final Fortune]

Even if you play Meltdown it's incredibly slow, you have to cast it for 2 mana at which point you've passed two turns without the opponent destroying your Volcanic Island. I wouldn't even play Massacre unless it was free, and Void Snare gets boarded in more often than not.

As an aside, I haven't been that impressed by SBing in 2 Thoughtseize, I think the 1 Pyroblast is better just for Meddling Mage.

[LDX]

I share the pain of fighting Calice of the Void and Ethersworn Canonist all the time.

You're not left with many options. I tried Shattering Spree, the card itself doesn't do enough, thought about Echoing Truth to clear the Chalice @1 & @0 lock, against which you simply can't win the game except with a G0 Tendrils, because they will clear your Goblins anyway. Couldn't set my mind on Meltdown.

Some people here had some trouble understanding how it's impossible to win against this hard hate without a non-1cmc card. Void Snare, Chain of Vapor, nothing goes pass Chalice of the Void. I totally understand why you would choose a very slow option that at least gives you an otherwise absent chance at winning. Others will say you should win before Chalice is played, or that the decks you play against are just unfair and ''not real meta decks''. Like we could choose our opening hand to always go by turn 0, or what we play against.

However, after wasting way too much of my time thinking about these artifacts, I ended picking up some wisdom found here and the Facebook page: just accept your loss and move on. Win the other matches. If 100% of the decks you face have Chalice of the Void, play something else.

The sideboard cards won't change that much, really. Your chances will go from 0% to like, at best, 30%, because even without Canonist or Chalice, you still have Thalia, Gaddock, etc. It's a huge boost, but it's not enough. Focus on the other decks you struggle with and turn a 40% win ratio into a 60% one if you can, that is much more worth your time.

P.S. I still have a place for a Shattering Spree singleton, but even then, I wouldn't know if it's really worth.

[Final Fortune]

It's also a question of old vs new, as TES decreases the number of Chrome Mox and changes the storm engines it becomes more vulnerable to prison archetypes, so in small meta games where low entry cost decks are popular you need to look at the older, faster versions of the deck because that speed is what gave TES the edge in those match ups (3 Chrome Mox, Diminishing Returns etc). The other option is to think about how you can change the strategy of your deck thru' SBing, something as simple as SBing in 2 more Empty the Warrens can attack these decks from an angle they're not prepared to deal with.

You don't want to get into the "answer the problem" mentality with Storm, but the "avoid the problem" mentality.

[Lemnear]

It's also a question of old vs new, as TES decreases the number of Chrome Mox and changes the storm engines it becomes more vulnerable to prison archetypes, so in small meta games where low entry cost decks are popular you need to look at the older, faster versions of the deck because that speed is what gave TES the edge in those match ups (3 Chrome Mox, Diminishing Returns etc). The other option is to think about how you can change the strategy of your deck thru' SBing, something as simple as SBing in 2 more Empty the Warrens can attack these decks from an angle they're not prepared to deal with.

You don't want to get into the "answer the problem" mentality with Storm, but the "avoid the problem" mentality.

DimRet is no option if you give your opponent a turn. I really like the additional EtWs though. Pretty solid against Miracles and Tempo for going the low Investment dumb aggro Route

[Bryant Cook]

Live: http://www.theepicstorm.com/twitch-tv/

[Bryant Cook]

TES Mailbox is back: http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-4/

[bjholmes3]

Good read. I can't believe people are so pissy they complain about you seeking help to replace a signed card. That's like if Mozart visited Beethoven and busted his deaf-man's piano up, Beethoven asks for a replacement, Mozart replies "Schadenfreude, sucker!" then prances away, all the while people complaining because Beethoven should be happy with a regular piano.

Just a heads up, just before the fuckwad quote you want its rather than it's.

You really do a great job, I would probably argue that TES has the most accessible and up to date information of any other deck in Legacy.

EDIT: metaphor adjusted because I learned more of what happened

[Final Fortune]

DimRet is no option if you give your opponent a turn. I really like the additional EtWs though. Pretty solid against Miracles and Tempo for going the low Investment dumb aggro Route

DimRet is fine vs prison (D&T) on the turns where Goblins are no longer an assured win or the games where the opponent has boarded in sweepers. Sometimes it's your only possible route to victory, low mana, low storm count, no hand or no graveyard etc. It's the Hail Mary of Storm.

Older versions of the deck aren't without their merrits, despite the rise of Islands

[Lemnear]

DimRet is fine vs prison (D&T) on the turns where Goblins are no longer an assured win or the games where the opponent has boarded in sweepers. Sometimes it's your only possible route to victory, low mana, low storm count, no hand or no graveyard etc. It's the Hail Mary of Storm.

Older versions of the deck aren't without their merrits, despite the rise of Islands

There are still natural Tendrils or PIF or flashbacked Therapies left as options to evade the need for DimRet.

[Final Fortune]

There are still natural Tendrils or PIF or flashbacked Therapies left as options to evade the need for DimRet.

I've played against D&T a lot post-board, naturally Storming vs their clock isn't really an option; honestly I just don't think you like the card?

[Lemnear]

I've played against D&T a lot post-board, naturally Storming vs their clock isn't really an option; honestly I just don't think you like the card?

You named three scenarios: D&T, Goblins no longer an option and boarded in sweepers. As i rarely see sweepers from D&T and the limited number of cases with Goblins not an option in mind, i see no appeal in a hail mary play against a limited number of decks and even a lesser amount of situations. Same goes with a lot of other old and cut cards.

I dunno if natural storming is completely off the list with Dread of Night + CoV.

[Bryant Cook]

You named three scenarios: D&T, Goblins no longer an option and boarded in sweepers. As i rarely see sweepers from D&T and the limited number of cases with Goblins not an option in mind, i see no appeal in a hail mary play against a limited number of decks and even a lesser amount of situations. Same goes with a lot of other old and cut cards.

I dunno if natural storming is completely off the list with Dread of Night + CoV.

It kind of is with Revoker, Port & Wasteland.

That said, I don't consider Diminishing Returns to be an option with today's lists. They're just not built for it anymore.

[Bryant Cook]

New article is up:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-vs-ant/

[arj]

Great article. I was testing Island this weekend in a turney and I was expecting more wasteland, but it never came up a single time in 7 rounds. Maybe I was lucky with the decks I faced, but I agree with the analysis.

[Bryant Cook]

Great article. I was testing Island this weekend in a turney and I was expecting more wasteland, but it never came up a single time in 7 rounds. Maybe I was lucky with the decks I faced, but I agree with the analysis.

Thanks, it just isn't needed with how little we actually need it in post-board games.

[arj]

I see you changed the sideboard, I like the change. Is there a place where you go through what to sideboard in each match?

[Bryant Cook]

The homepage of the website: http://www.theepicstorm.com/#matchupanalysis

[thefringthing]

I don't know if this is the ideal forum for this suggestion, but a version of the TES site that looked more like this (http://www.textise.net/showText.aspx?strURL=http%253A//www.theepicstorm.com/) would make me very happy. I may just have atypical web design tastes, though.

[Bryant Cook]

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141005145304/epicrapbattlesofhistory/images/d/d3/IDGAF.gif

[emidln]

I don't know if this is the ideal forum for this suggestion, but a version of the TES site that looked more like this (http://www.textise.net/showText.aspx?strURL=http%253A//www.theepicstorm.com/) would make me very happy. I may just have atypical web design tastes, though.

Step 1, use Firefox.
Step 2, click View->Page Style->No Style
Step 3, boring ass text and images.

Thanks Byrant for keeping it 2015!

[Bryant Cook]

My thoughts on the B&R Announcement and their effects on storm: http://www.theepicstorm.com/september-28-2015-br-announcement/

[Lemnear]

Second take on the matter :) (http://www.theepicstorm.com/heart-of-the-storm-september-2015-br-update-2/)

[Alix444]

@Byrant

I think you are overstating the impact of DRS in the Shardless/ANT Match-up. With two extra mana you just tutor chain so that you have another tutor. DRS doesn't stop cantrip chain wins, natural storm or double ToA lines. Sure discard + DRS is a house against 1 ToA 1 PiF lists but there aren't many of those floating around. TES is hurt more by no DRS Hymm openings than ANT is. So before anyone gets defensive about it I will clarify in saying that DRS+Discard hurts ANT more, but in general Hymm hurts TES more since TES can't effectively use the GY as a resource which results in ANT and TES having pretty similar G1's against shardless.

[Bryant Cook]

My name is Bryant.

Also, I mentioned that resolved Hymn to Tourachs are painful, same with Liliana. Try reading the article please. Not to mention, every time I read "Just Tutor for another Tutor" I laugh a little as players always have so much god damn mana at their expense against a deck with Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach and Liliana with possible Abrupt Decays killing Lion's Eye Diamonds – which is why I said it's better to be fast in this match-up and win before their cards come online.

[Svyelunite]

My name is Bryant.

Also, I mentioned that resolved Hymn to Tourachs are painful, same with Liliana. Try reading the article please. Not to mention, every time I read "Just Tutor for another Tutor" I laugh a little as players always have so much god damn mana at their expense against a deck with Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach and Liliana with possible Abrupt Decays killing Lion's Eye Diamonds – which is why I said it's better to be fast in this match-up and win before their cards come online.

My name is Zach.

Amen! Not to mention how hard it is sometimes just to get enough spare mana for the first tutor. Especially when you get paired against some jackass Infect player who topdecks spell pierces the turn after getting his only Flusterstorm duressed (or whatever actually happened when I lucksacked my way to a win in DC) :tongue:

[bjholmes3]

Tutor chaining beats discard like finishing my dinner helps the starving kids in Africa.

[Alix444]

@ Bryant

I'll keep it simple.

1. I made a typo.
2. I did read your whole article.
3. Having 9 mana isn't that crazy. And even conceding that it is, it still accounts for one of the many ways to win around a DRS. So why don't you address another one? That is if you aren't laughing so hard.
4. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize that it's easier to win before your opponent plays magic, but you can't just discount ANT's ability to play around DRS.
5. ANT can spit out goblins too.

The sad thing is that you are so insecure that you instantly get defensive. All I said was you are overstating the impact DRS has against ANT, a deck you don't even play, and you are reacting like I am calling you a mindless idiot.

[Bryant Cook]

@ Bryant

3. Having 9 mana isn't that crazy. And even conceding that it is, it still accounts for one of the many ways to win around a DRS. So why don't you address another one? That is if you aren't laughing so hard.
4. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize that it's easier to win before your opponent plays magic, but you can't just discount ANT's ability to play around DRS.
5. ANT can spit out goblins too.

The sad thing is that you are so insecure that you instantly get defensive. All I said was you are overstating the impact DRS has against ANT, a deck you don't even play, and you are reacting like I am calling you a mindless idiot.

3. Why would I need to address another way to win around DRS with ANT? It doesn't make any sense.
4. ANT has a very tough time with DRS decks due to the fact they cut off your primary resource while discard disrupts natural storm, it's just a single match-up in which TES is better due to Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens which are both stronger here than ANT.
5. Sure, "can" if the list plays it while a bunch don't.

It's not being defensive, you reiterated a point in which I already stated in my article then acted like I hadn't said it to begin with. I've played/tested ANT before, not to mention I've watched matches of ANT vs Shardless at opens, a lot of the time it comes down to the fact that they didn't draw well enough to beat Deathrite Shaman.

[davelin]

The article said that TES is better positioned than ANT versus Shardless. That is far from saying Shardless is a bad matchup for ANT.

[Pelikanudo]

@Final Fortune, Lemnear and Bahamut mainly:

Looking at the banning list I'm happy to go back to my 12 lands - Gemstones - 3rd duress List . My idea is to full return to this 75 which were for me an staple before the DTT and T.C. Era:

4 Gesmtones
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame

sideboard
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Pyroclasm
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Bayou
1 Duress
1 Void Snare

Basically the unique match up I lost was the 3rd game vs a kind of Super Control Deck with 4 DTT, which made me changing my mind regarding the Manabase.... the rest of pairings were super ok, of course except sometimes the hell of miracles.
So assuming miracles likely will return to RiP, doesn't seem to me much sense to play 2 Extirpate... and the 13 Manabase, saving 1 slot in my side.

My main purpose is to beat somehow miracles as it was from the beginings... and I noticed how bad Xantids are sometimes vs this archetype... Sometimes they have response for this and sometimes drawing them in multiple is just plain bad... this is why I was thinking in use 2 Xantids/1 Autumn's Veil or 1 Xantids/2 Autumn's Veil ..., I also thought in playing 1 Krosan Grip but this seems such a specific card...
Autums is also ok for the RUG match ups which will arise for sure... in that era I evaluated to play a couple of Silence and returning to -1 Fetch-1V-Island = +2CoB...

Stifle is now a thing to have in mind

What do you guys think?

EDIT: First feelings after a very small tourmament and talking with people
I faced a UR which again played full stifles and some by here will again bring their Patriot decks... Also seems thay Miracles will be played by here a lot also it seems the number os stifles has incremented a lot... The sneak/omnitell players seem to prefer again sneak and the BURG boys likely will return to stifle and S.Library...
I dont think i would need any number of pyros by the moment. Still A.D is good for removal purpose....

[wonderPreaux]

I think you shouldnt be running Bayou and Tarn...

[Alix444]

If I were hellbent (intended) on beating miracles I'd probably play 3 empties in my board and play three carpets. And just keep slamming goblins

[Lemnear]

@Final Fortune, Lemnear and Bahamut mainly:

Looking at the banning list I'm happy to go back to my 12 lands - Gemstones - 3rd duress List...

I can basically cut it off here. Everybody expects Stifle/Wasteland/Hymn making a big return in Legacy and you opt to cut down lands again?

[Pelikanudo]

I can basically cut it off here. Everybody expects Stifle/Wasteland/Hymn making a big return in Legacy and you opt to cut down lands again?

a) I dont know if you are planning in going back to 3rd C.M. but this counts as 0.5 Land which is even indestructible - sure, you play 13 lands 2 C.M.
b) 13 Lands with 8 Fetches is worse than 12 Lands with 4 Fetches vs Stifle
c) I still have Bayou in side which I bring in vs Wastelands.
d) Having 13 Lands and 8 Fetch is exact the same as having 12 Lands and 4 Fetch in regards of Fetching for the desirable Land with a FetchThatShouldBeGemstone - you will have exact the same amount of Lands Left
e) I have never ever had issues with the mentioned Deck vs WastelandsAndStifles Decks - an example is the UR Deck I faced today with 4 wastelands, 4 Stifles 4 Daze 2 S.Pierces and 4 Fow which I just won him easily.
(Briefly: 1st Game was lost by a Stifle to my Gobbos - a bad consequency of the banning of the DTT..., 2nd game was G.P., C.M., bayou, RoF, LED, B.W. EtW, and 3rd Natural Tendrils through S.Pierce and FoW an Wasteland)
f) I have said a lot of times that for me having a Lonely Gemstone in play is enough to win vs WastelandsAndStifles .deck, I will always prefer to beeing destroyed all my lands and that my unique one left is a Gesmtones - always, I don't know how will you handle StiflesAndWastealnds.decks with a lonely Swamp and several Fetches Stifled and/or V.Island/U.sea wastelanded.

I think I should have specified I wanted to know your opinión in regards of the Split of 1A.Veil/2Xantid - I would prefer to not enter in the Manabase discussion again, sorry - The unique reason I switched to the Fetch manabase was to handle attrition games vs DTT Control decks, now they just don't exist so I have no reason to run a 13 Fetch manabase at all.

[Lemnear]

a) I dont know if you are planning in going back to 3rd C.M. but this counts as 0.5 Land which is even indestructible - sure, you play 13 lands 2 C.M.
Bryant is currently testing with MB 14 lands and 6 discard. Just saying

b) 13 Lands with 8 Fetches is worse than 12 Lands with 4 Fetches vs Stifle
if it was JUST Stifle. Its not. Its about battling Wasteland/Stifle/Daze

c) I still have Bayou in side which I bring in vs Wastelands.
After giving away game 1 against a big slice of the metagame? Well, we will see how it actually turns out I guess

d) Having 13 Lands and 8 Fetch is exact the same as having 12 Lands and 4 Fetch in regards of Fetching for the desirable Land with a FetchThatShouldBeGemstone - you will have exact the same amount of Lands Left
We had this discussion a million times. Its about better cantripping and stable mana in grindier games

e) I have never ever had issues with the mentioned Deck vs WastelandsAndStifles Decks - an example is the UR Deck I faced today with 4 wastelands, 4 Stifles 4 Daze 2 S.Pierces and 4 Fow which I just won him easily.
And sometimes you lose turn two to Elves... TES' statistics in general are bad against Tempo decks and if those return in a bigger number a reaction is due. Cutting down lands is not what I have in mind ;)

[QUOTE=Pelikanudo;907637]f) I have said a lot of times that for me having a Lonely Gemstone in play is enough to win vs WastelandsAndStifles .deck, I will always prefer to beeing destroyed all my lands and that my unique one left is a Gesmtones - always, I don't know how will you handle StiflesAndWastealnds.decks with a lonely Swamp and several Fetches Stifled and/or V.Island/U.sea wastelanded.
Because you get several fetches stifled IN A SINGLE TURN and neither have Probe/Duress/Therapy to prevent walking right into Stifle. We had the topic of how-to-play-around-wasteland with the Dual/Fetch manabase before. Please, please stop trying to make a point based on needlessly exposing Duals to Wasteland

I think I should have specified I wanted to know your opinión in regards of the Split of 1A.Veil/2Xantid - I would prefer to not enter in the Manabase discussion again, sorry - The unique reason I switched to the Fetch manabase was to handle attrition games vs DTT Control decks, now they just don't exist so I have no reason to run a 13 Fetch manabase at all.
Well, there was my name followed by the decklist :)

Ok, back to the SB: I dislike Veil for the same reason I dismissed Silence as there are too many Counterbalance, hatebears and resistors in the metagame to consider

[TheKingslayer]

Caleb Scherer and I tested the delver matchup with six discard and once basic island. I felt the basic island handed him five of eight of our preboard games, and god knows how many post board, as I held a stranded wasteland in hand. I ultimately ended up boarding out a couple wastelands, as there was almost never an incentive to drop one into play.It allowed him to more efficiently play around taxing counters (a form of card advantage), and granted an extra turn or two of needed cantripping. I strongly feel it is a worthy inclusion. Respect wasteland, and respect basics.

[Dr_D]

Caleb Scherer and I tested the delver matchup with six discard and once basic island. I felt the basic island handed him five of eight of our preboard games, and god knows how many post board, as I held a stranded wasteland in hand. I ultimately ended up boarding out a couple wastelands, as there was almost never an incentive to drop one into play.It allowed him to more efficiently play around taxing counters (a form of card advantage), and granted an extra turn or two of needed cantripping. I strongly feel it is a worthy inclusion. Respect wasteland, and respect basics.

Would it be possible to post or message me the exact 75 he played? I'm pretty interested in the list.

[Final Fortune]

Even tho' I think Gold Lands and 3 Chrome Mox are playable, I don't see any reason to play them; you're just trading weakness vs Stifle to weakness vs Wasteland and better cantripping to better mana so unless your Gold Lands are supporting a heavy 4th color out of the SB or your 3rd Chrome Mox is supporting a Diminishing Returns or 3 Empty the Warrens what's the point? I suppose 2xAutumn's Veil vs aggro-control would be one reason, but I don't think it's any better than a Thoughtseize and a Pyroblast. I kind of like cutting Abrupt Decay and Bayou for 2 Empty the Warrens and trying to grind out Miracles that way since it's really hard for them to tell you've boarded into more copies of the card.

Meh, I'm not sure I like 14 Lands, 2 Mox, 6 Discard, I think you'd be better off cutting the Xantid Swarms in the SB and making space for an Island for the aggressive cantrip plays.

[Lemnear]

Even tho' I think Gold Lands and 3 Chrome Mox are playable, I don't see any reason to play them; you're just trading weakness vs Stifle to weakness vs Wasteland and better cantripping to better mana so unless your Gold Lands are supporting a heavy 4th color out of the SB or your 3rd Chrome Mox is supporting a Diminishing Returns or 3 Empty the Warrens what's the point? I suppose 2xAutumn's Veil vs aggro-control would be one reason, but I don't think it's any better than a Thoughtseize and a Pyroblast. I kind of like cutting Abrupt Decay and Bayou for 2 Empty the Warrens and trying to grind out Miracles that way since it's really hard for them to tell you've boarded into more copies of the card.

Meh, I'm not sure I like 14 Lands, 2 Mox, 6 Discard, I think you'd be better off cutting the Xantid Swarms in the SB and making space for an Island for the aggressive cantrip plays.

If Decay was only for Miracles, I'd actually would like to try cutting green and try the aggro plan with 4 EtW in the 75, but the card is also there to battle chalice & Co


Caleb Scherer and I tested the delver matchup with six discard and once basic island. I felt the basic island handed him five of eight of our preboard games, and god knows how many post board, as I held a stranded wasteland in hand. I ultimately ended up boarding out a couple wastelands, as there was almost never an incentive to drop one into play.It allowed him to more efficiently play around taxing counters (a form of card advantage), and granted an extra turn or two of needed cantripping. I strongly feel it is a worthy inclusion. Respect wasteland, and respect basics.

Isn't Caleb playing ANT? There is quite some difference between needing red mana pre-tutor or not in terms of manabase development between the decks. In TES its not always sufficient to have red mana off a LED for example which forces you to have a total of 3 initial mana sources if you fetch a basic island at any point of the game unlike ANT, which needs two IMS' total despite the Island in many cases.

Doesn't change the fact that TES can play around Wasteland if proper piloted.

[Final Fortune]

Well cutting 6 cards for 2 gives you room to replace Abrupt Decay with other removal, you could run a full set of Chains of Vapour, a couple of Echoing Truth, a Meltdown etc. I kind of think Abrupt Decay is pretty mediocre removal in any match up other than Miracles, and with DTT gone I'm not sure how popular Miracles will be.

[Lemnear]

Well cutting 6 cards for 2 gives you room to replace Abrupt Decay with other removal, you could run a full set of Chains of Vapour, a couple of Echoing Truth, a Meltdown etc. I kind of think Abrupt Decay is pretty mediocre removal in any match up other than Miracles, and with DTT gone I'm not sure how popular Miracles will be.

Pre-TC era metagame gives us at least a clue, which was Miracles/Shardless/SneakShow

[Pelikanudo]

Related the EtW plan vs Miracles, this is something I've not tested yet and deserves testing...
I believe that the multiple EtW plan could also be viable vs Chalice.decks instead of using A.D.

The unique problem I see is that I'm not sure how good will be A.N. with 3 EtW main... as said this deserves testing.
@F.Fortune: Right this is all a matter of trading weakness for other weakness... long time ago I decided which weakness I prefer...

When I switched to 3 C.M, 13 fetch manabase, 6 Discard, I played more discard in side, but I just hated to play only 6 discard main, the same occurred with playing only 2 C.M. C.M. has provided so many Turn 1 Wins and so many Post A.N. wins that I dont think I never will switch to 2 C.M. I'm more advocated to play 6 discard thn 2 C.M....

Related about TheKingSlayer said, well I don't think Island belongs to TES, I've played not ANT - TNT instead, and the way I focus Tempo is quite different in one and other match up... EtW is an all Start in here... I agree on Lemnear in here.

[Bryant Cook]

Isn't Caleb playing ANT? There is quite some difference between needing red mana pre-tutor or not in terms of manabase development between the decks. In TES its not always sufficient to have red mana off a LED for example which forces you to have a total of 3 initial mana sources if you fetch a basic island at any point of the game unlike ANT, which needs two IMS' total despite the Island in many cases.

Doesn't change the fact that TES can play around Wasteland if proper piloted.

Caleb is testing TES at the moment.

[Final Fortune]

Island for me is a SB card, I use the U/G Fetch over the B/R Fetch because I play the 3rd Underground Sea instead of the Swamp, so I can SB in the most useful basic land vs Wasteland and set up with cantrips.

I'm indifferent regarding the number of Chrome Mox, but I think you're biased towards the Golden Lands. Wastelands are more common than Stifles, Gemstone Mines deplete vs aggro-control/control, Goldlands eliminate the use of Massacre in the SB, the deck has less shuffle effects for cantrips and gives your opponent unneccessary information. Frankly I'm not Bryant, so cutting Swamp and playing the U/G Fetch has been to my benefit because I can Fetchland, go and bluff aggro-control.

[Pelikanudo]

a) I dont know if you are planning in going back to 3rd C.M. but this counts as 0.5 Land which is even indestructible - sure, you play 13 lands 2 C.M.

Bryant is currently testing with MB 14 lands and 6 discard. Just saying


I really don't mind what Bryant is testing - almost sure he plans on testing the mediocre island main..., something I even won't consider..., and 6 Discard? I felt clunky playing 6 discard vs for example Miracles, this is something I regreted whent switched to 13 Lands...



b) 13 Lands with 8 Fetches is worse than 12 Lands with 4 Fetches vs Stifle

if it was JUST Stifle. Its not. Its about battling Wasteland/Stifle/Daze



I don't know which is your plan vs Tempo, but vs Tempo you NEED to Ponder and B.S., what are you going to do, just sitting on Fetches because you are afraid to beeing destroyed? - They play 4 Wasteland not 8, and while you are sitting on Fetchland they will be pondering to death for Stifle... so when you just Fetch you'll be Stifled... I prefer to play land, then Ponder looking for other land or whatever I need.





c) I still have Bayou in side which I bring in vs Wastelands.

After giving away game 1 against a big slice of the metagame? Well, we will see how it actually turns out I guess



You mean I give away 1st game by only just playing 1 less land? while I still play 3 C.M. main and less fetches than you? - it doesn't make sense at all for me.
As said, I haven't had ANY issues vs WastealndAndStifle.decks. this at least is my statistic vs tempo.decks, which for me is even favourable the 1st game...





d) Having 13 Lands and 8 Fetch is exact the same as having 12 Lands and 4 Fetch in regards of Fetching for the desirable Land with a FetchThatShouldBeGemstone - you will have exact the same amount of Lands Left

We had this discussion a million times. Its about better cantripping and stable mana in grindier games


yes, nothing happens if we don't agree. the point I will never understand is: How the hell do you sit on Fetches AND cantrip at the moreless same time? unless your plan is start to cantripping from the 3rd turn.... which doesn't make sense to me if you play TES deck



e) I have never ever had issues with the mentioned Deck vs WastelandsAndStifles Decks - an example is the UR Deck I faced today with 4 wastelands, 4 Stifles 4 Daze 2 S.Pierces and 4 Fow which I just won him easily.

And sometimes you lose turn two to Elves... TES statistics in general are bad against Tempo decks and if those return in a bigger number a reaction is due. Cutting down lands is not what I have in mind



All I can guarranty is that I have won more 1st games vs Tempo decks than lost 1st games vs Tempo decks, and this happened from: (70/30 maybe? or even more)
a) Since I started to play EtW main
b) Not less than 3 C.M.
This at least are my statistics with the deck.

The argument about cutting down lands make the deck worse vs tempo is just out of context... Fuck the hell, will you have more win percentage ratios if you play then 16 lands? if the answer is no, then fuck that argument, if the answer is yes, well, you can play then 20 and the match up will be even better!!!!





f) I have said a lot of times that for me having a Lonely Gemstone in play is enough to win vs WastelandsAndStifles .deck, I will always prefer to beeing destroyed all my lands and that my unique one left is a Gesmtones - always, I don't know how will you handle StiflesAndWastealnds.decks with a lonely Swamp and several Fetches Stifled and/or V.Island/U.sea wastelanded.

Because you get several fetches stifled IN A SINGLE TURN and neither have Probe/Duress/Therapy to prevent walking right into Stifle. We had the topic of how-to-play-around-wasteland with the Dual/Fetch manabase before. Please, please stop trying to make a point based on needlessly exposing Duals to Wasteland



Well let this be absolutly clear:

Suppose the hand:

LED, D.R., Ponder, Fetch, I.T., B.S., L.P. - not a bad hand right? but this is scaring vs WastelandAndStifle.deck
and you face a WastelandAndStifle.deck, and you know it is a WastelandAndStifle.deck and they have no Hymns and it is the 1st game

what the hell are you going to do in here, if they start by just playing fetch.

My opinions on this:
a) there is a great percentage they have: ( daze OR stifle OR FoW OR wasteland OR S.Pierce), therefore, trying to comboing in the first turn is nonsense. Right?
b) you need to fire off ponder because you need to find duress at its mínimum. the question is when?, there is a near 40% that with this hand you will never ever fire off Ponder...
c) in this scenario, what would you prefer: Gemstone or that fetch? for me this is clear: Gemstone. so that I will land L.P., then Gemstone then ponder, the chances they play S.Pierce are more slower than playing other of the cards I mentioned in a).
d) will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?

Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.

[Bryant Cook]

if I was to run Island, I think I would re-consider the manabase.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Misty Rainforest / Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

SB:

1 Bayou/Tropical (Part of me likes Tropical when running a Badlands - Less hands that can cast cantrips with Bayou. That and Badlands + Tropical can cast everything).

I think I'll test the manabase above.

This is what I'm currently running:

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

[Bryant Cook]

http://www.theepicstorm.com/twitch-tv/ streaming live!

[Final Fortune]

What is Xantid for right now, let alone 3 copies? OmniTell seems a lot worse without DTT, no?

[Bryant Cook]

Miracles and Sneak & Show. Both are real decks.

[Lemnear]

I don't know which is your plan vs Tempo, but vs Tempo you NEED to Ponder and B.S., what are you going to do, just sitting on Fetches because you are afraid to beeing destroyed? - They play 4 Wasteland not 8, and while you are sitting on Fetchland they will be pondering to death for Stifle... so when you just Fetch you'll be Stifled... I prefer to play land, then Ponder looking for other land or whatever I need.

You are aware that their pondering and deploying threats gives you windows to crack fetches and do some eot brainstorming followed by more fetchland activations while their mana is tied and they are not able to interact much? Most tempo decks are done with their mana development after the second dual in play, so how much interaction do you think is about to happen in response to your eot shenanigans in turn 4 or so? Let them exhaust their mana during their mainphase and eot for Ponder, Stifle, Delver, SFM, Tarmogoyf, DRS etc. while you untap and combo.


You mean I give away 1st game by only just playing 1 less land? while I still play 3 C.M. main and less fetches than you? - it doesn't make sense at all for me.
As said, I haven't had ANY issues vs WastealndAndStifle.decks. this at least is my statistic vs tempo.decks, which for me is even favourable the 1st game...

Less lands AND less shuffle effects ... it adds up. I destroyed all tempo/Delver/Blade decks in Lille by slowrolling and turning their tempo components useless.


yes, nothing happens if we don't agree. the point I will never understand is: How the hell do you sit on Fetches AND cantrip at the moreless same time? unless your plan is start to cantripping from the 3rd turn.... which doesn't make sense to me if you play TES deck

Start cantripping turn 3 is exactly what I did, given I was able to make consecutive landdrops. Never said anything different. I invalidate their whole tempo gameplan with that ANT-like early game and it has absolutely nothing to do with playing TES. Just because I pick a deck like TES, I don't have to play it like an idiot piloting Belcher in any possible situation.


The argument about cutting down lands make the deck worse vs tempo is just out of context... Fuck the hell, will you have more win percentage ratios if you play then 16 lands? if the answer is no, then fuck that argument, if the answer is yes, well, you can play then 20 and the match up will be even better!!!!

You simply look at statistics for that and look what ANT does better against tempo, which is invalidating the impact of Wasteland/Stifle/Daze by more lands and basics. We try to mimic these advantages in these matchups without giving up our potentially fast starts in matchups that demand it. It should be clear that too many lands may mess too much with Infernal Tutor, so finding a balance between fast hellbent and stability against tempo decks is the trick which fetchlands support as you can slightly manipulate the odds of drawing more lands if you need to be quick and wasteland is not your problem.


Well let this be absolutly clear:

Suppose the hand:

LED, D.R., Ponder, Fetch, I.T., B.S., L.P. - not a bad hand right? but this is scaring vs WastelandAndStifle.deck
and you face a WastelandAndStifle.deck, and you know it is a WastelandAndStifle.deck and they have no Hymns and it is the 1st game

what the hell are you going to do in here, if they start by just playing fetch.

My opinions on this:
a) there is a great percentage they have: ( daze OR stifle OR FoW OR wasteland OR S.Pierce), therefore, trying to comboing in the first turn is nonsense. Right?
b) you need to fire off ponder because you need to find duress at its mínimum. the question is when?, there is a near 40% that with this hand you will never ever fire off Ponder...
c) in this scenario, what would you prefer: Gemstone or that fetch? for me this is clear: Gemstone. so that I will land L.P., then Gemstone then ponder, the chances they play S.Pierce are more slower than playing other of the cards I mentioned in a).
d) will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?

Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.

A) game 1 you either drop fetch, petal, BS off petal, fetch (likely eot) and win if your opponent kept an aggressive hand or you play "land, go" and wait until your opponent moves first
B) no. There is no need to Ponder for discard unless your opponent holds FoW. You can play around stifle/Daze/Pierce/Wasteland without wasting a card and putting your opponent into the driver seat with exposing a dual for an early Ponder.
C) see above. Brainstorm off petal, fetch the crap away. Gemstone can't do that, but quite the opposite: Brainstorm is crap if you have a Gemstone instead of a Fetch in that situation. You have a lot less options as sitting it out is not even viable. With Gemstone you HAVE to walk right into potential protection in any case.
D) lets stick with this scenario/hand and the opponent is casting Ponder and finds Stifle: I untap, draw an unknown card (which can be another manasource), I try to fetch, my opponent Stifles it, you drop Petal, LED, Ritual, Infernal, EtW, make 12 Goblins and win. Where is the problem?

[Pelikanudo]

Well let this be absolutly clear:

Suppose the hand:

LED, D.R., Ponder, Fetch, I.T., B.S., L.P. - not a bad hand right? but this is scaring vs WastelandAndStifle.deck
and you face a WastelandAndStifle.deck, and you know it is a WastelandAndStifle.deck and they have no Hymns and it is the 1st game

what the hell are you going to do in here, if they start by just playing fetch.

My opinions on this:
a) there is a great percentage they have: ( daze OR stifle OR FoW OR wasteland OR S.Pierce), therefore, trying to comboing in the first turn is nonsense. Right?
b) you need to fire off ponder because you need to find duress at its mínimum. the question is when?, there is a near 40% that with this hand you will never ever fire off Ponder...
c) in this scenario, what would you prefer: Gemstone or that fetch? for me this is clear: Gemstone. so that I will land L.P., then Gemstone then ponder, the chances they play S.Pierce are more slower than playing other of the cards I mentioned in a).
d) will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?

Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.



A) game 1 you either drop fetch, petal, BS off petal, fetch (likely eot) and win if your opponent kept an aggressive hand or you play "land, go" and wait until your opponent moves first
B) no. There is no need to Ponder for discard unless your opponent holds FoW. You can play around stifle/Daze/Pierce/Wasteland without wasting a card and putting your opponent into the driver seat with exposing a dual for an early Ponder.
C) see above. Brainstorm off petal, fetch the crap away. Gemstone can't do that, but quite the opposite: Brainstorm is crap if you have a Gemstone instead of a Fetch in that situation. You have a lot less options as sitting it out is not even viable. With Gemstone you HAVE to walk right into potential protection in any case.
D) lets stick with this scenario/hand and the opponent is casting Ponder and finds Stifle: I untap, draw an unknown card (which can be another manasource), I try to fetch, my opponent Stifles it, you drop Petal, LED, Ritual, Infernal, EtW, make 12 Goblins and win. Where is the problem?

regarding a), well if you play B.S. with Petal and they have daze and stifle you are dead, IF they have FoW plus Stifle and wasteland the Opp. can evaluate to invest his FoW to lock you.
regarding b) Agree, there is no need to play ponder in the first turn, however sitting on fetch gets up the odds for the opp. to find the stifle which will lock you anyway, sure this also gets up the odds to find you another land, but this land can also be a dual which will be destroyed.
regarding c) If instead Fetch you have gemstone you will not play B.S., this is absurd, instead Gemstone to ponder with a L.P. to avoid daze, sure, they can have Pierce, but as said, Pierce is the less common card among Daze, Wasteland, FoW and Stifle.
regarding d)EXACT: the problem is that by doing this you will loose not only to FoW, Daze and Pierce also counts!, you have less than 50% to win this way. it is nonsense to make this play, Even the Opp. has played a Ponder... you are completely wrong in here my friend because you are playing in d) Non Sense Belcher Mode.

[Lemnear]

regarding a), well if you play B.S. with Petal and they have daze and stifle you are dead, IF they have FoW plus Stifle and wasteland the Opp. can evaluate to invest his FoW to lock you.

You come up with a scenario of me trying to beat Stifle+FoW+Wasteland+Pitch with a certain hand to have a point? For real?


regarding b) Agree, there is no need to play ponder in the first turn, however sitting on fetch gets up the odds for the opp. to find the stifle which will lock you anyway, sure this also gets up the odds to find you another land, but this land can also be a dual which will be destroyed.

That would still opens up options to Brainstorm + shuffle in response to a possible Wasteland or use the fetch as Stifle-bait like I mentioned before to combo. You would have a dual + Petal + fetch here which Beats Stifle + Daze or Spell Pierce while never giving a window to use Wasteland. That's what it's all about


regarding c) If instead Fetch you have gemstone you will not play B.S., this is absurd, instead Gemstone to ponder with a L.P. to avoid daze, sure, they can have Pierce, but as said, Pierce is the less common card among Daze, Wasteland, FoW and Stifle.

And you Ponder for the mentioned discard Spell or a second land here? What do you do if you get hit by Wasteland after your Ponder? What if the Ponder was a different card instead? What if you are not even up against Tempo with that starting grip? Gemstone leaves you with a lot less options to play this hand, which i want to Highlight


regarding d)EXACT: the problem is that by doing this you will loose not only to FoW, Daze and Pierce also counts!, you have less than 50% to win this way. it is nonsense to make this play, Even the Opp. has played a Ponder... you are completely wrong in here my friend because you are playing in d) Non Sense Belcher Mode.

You can't argue against Pierce as a foil to your plan first and throw it now as counterargument into my face in the same post. There is no Problem with them having Daze or FoW or Pierce as you have the option to NOT go all-in and you can actually adjust with the Brainstorm + fetch according to what you want to do. You can BS into Probe or discard, put back the unnecessary Ponder and pass the turn w/o fetching before your opponents eot or decide to fetch after the B s and Ponder immediately. You have soooo many options to play this hand simply because there is a Fetchland instead of a Gemstone.

Are you arguing here that the opponent pondered into Stifle while already having FoW + Pitch or Daze in hand? Is this again the topic of "Fetches are bad as you can't beat 2+ pieces of disruption with a single land!"

Point is: Gemstone dictates how to play this hand while a fetch does not. I mean, I could return the favor and ask how you would want to beat Pierce/Wasteland/Daze with your Gemstone mine, but I would never do.

[d0nkey]

*munches popcorn*

[Tvox]

I haven't played TES as much as most of you, but I'm an avid player of ANT. Even though the decks differ quite a bit my personal train of though is that you shouldn't really play too much on mines and rather have fetches + duals unless absolutely necessary to find your colours (i.e. you play 5c, 4c is fully doable with fetches + duals).

Also shoutout @Lemnear!
Thank you for the probes man! They just arrived and will be of great help making the deck German Foil!

[bjholmes3]

Darn it Bryant, don't you steal one of our all-star ANT players!

For reals though, Peli, you need to play against tempo more, you're pretty off base on a lot of the points you so passionately proclaim. The biggest mistake I see newer storm players make is that they feel really rushed, like they MUST go off or discard or cantrip or all is lost. Pretty sure Delver doesn't have 20 power and tap for free FoW, you can take time to prepare.

[Lemnear]

I haven't played TES as much as most of you, but I'm an avid player of ANT. Even though the decks differ quite a bit my personal train of though is that you shouldn't really play too much on mines and rather have fetches + duals unless absolutely necessary to find your colours (i.e. you play 5c, 4c is fully doable with fetches + duals).

Also shoutout @Lemnear!
Thank you for the probes man! They just arrived and will be of great help making the deck German Foil!

Oliver! Wasn't aware that you are on TheSource. You should have PM'd me and I would have sent a Rad package instead of that loveless letter I actually threw in the mailbox. Something along Gold-signed perfect fits or german Dread of Nights or the like for example. If you need something lemme know :)

[Lemnear]

Darn it Bryant, don't you steal one of our all-star ANT players!

For reals though, Peli, you need to play against tempo more, you're pretty off base on a lot of the points you so passionately proclaim. The biggest mistake I see newer storm players make is that they feel really rushed, like they MUST go off or discard or cantrip or all is lost. Pretty sure Delver doesn't have 20 power and tap for free FoW, you can take time to prepare.

Interresting point to look at it. I agree that never players often force to combo in the first three turns against Tempo for essentially no reason as many of the problems in this matchup like Daze or Wasteland invalidate themselves over time naturally. In most game 1s against Tempo it does not matter if EtW is cast turn 1 or turn 4 as they lose to it near anyways.

To summarize: people confuse the Gameplan for tempo with the one for Combo

[Pelikanudo]

Darn it Bryant, don't you steal one of our all-star ANT players!

For reals though, Peli, you need to play against tempo more, you're pretty off base on a lot of the points you so passionately proclaim. The biggest mistake I see newer storm players make is that they feel really rushed, like they MUST go off or discard or cantrip or all is lost. Pretty sure Delver doesn't have 20 power and tap for free FoW, you can take time to prepare.

I am not sure if to say thanks for the advise, but I have played vs Tempo with Storm from the beggining of the existence of RUG..., maybe when this archetype played that 1/1 which added G to the mana pool and with 3shold is a 4/4 - don't remember its name...

I go off with TES exactly when I need to. I just love the ability of TES of having the possibility of going off when there is a need/chance, which doesn't mean I use TES as Belcher...
The unique Storm Deck I have not tested and didnt get Top 8 in any torunament is Candelabra SpiralTides.... the rest I got any Top 8. (ANT-TNT - I hate the plain ANT is, DDFT, TES, Solidarity - those wonderful years...)

My mind is mathematical as hell, you can see the above posts Lemnear vs Me. I see the contradictions Lemnears on d):

P: will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?

Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.

L: lets stick with this scenario/hand and the opponent is casting Ponder and finds Stifle: I untap, draw an unknown card (which can be another manasource), I try to fetch, my opponent Stifles it, you drop Petal, LED, Ritual, Infernal, EtW, make 12 Goblins and win. Where is the problem?

P: regarding d)EXACT: the problem is that by doing this you will loose not only to FoW, Daze and Pierce also counts!, you have less than 50% to win this way. it is nonsense to make this play, Even the Opp. has played a Ponder... you are completely wrong in here my friend because you are playing in d) Non Sense Belcher Mode.

L: You can't argue against Pierce as a foil to your plan first and throw it now as counterargument into my face in the same post. There is no Problem with them having Daze or FoW or Pierce as you have the option to NOT go all-in and you can actually adjust with the Brainstorm + fetch according to what you want to do. You can BS into Probe or discard, put back the unnecessary Ponder and pass the turn w/o fetching before your opponents eot or decide to fetch after the B s and Ponder immediately. You have soooo many options to play this hand simply because there is a Fetchland instead of a Gemstone.

Are you arguing here that the opponent pondered into Stifle while already having FoW + Pitch or Daze in hand? Is this again the topic of "Fetches are bad as you can't beat 2+ pieces of disruption with a single land!"

Point is: Gemstone dictates how to play this hand while a fetch does not. I mean, I could return the favor and ask how you would want to beat Pierce/Wasteland/Daze with your Gemstone mine, but I would never do.



Me now: Regarding to your point:
a) you CAN choose to not to play Gemstone - why? to not beeing destroyed by wasteland. Simple. I've done this so many times...
b) you CAN NOT choose the opp. to not to have Stifle in hand.
c) I argue that in this scenario: there are more than 50% Opp. having Fow OR Daze , and IF Opp. stifles you, it is nonsense as you stated to do such play.

[Bryant Cook]

Why do people continue to engage with the troll? I stopped almost two years ago and it feels great. Some people can't be saved, let them drown.

[Lemnear]

Me now: Regarding to your point:
a) you CAN choose to not to play Gemstone - why? to not beeing destroyed by wasteland. Simple. I've done this so many times...
b) you CAN NOT choose the opp. to not to have Stifle in hand.
c) I argue that in this scenario: there are more than 50% Opp. having Fow OR Daze , and IF Opp. stifles you, it is nonsense as you stated to do such play.

A) yeah, you can draw your 8th card, drop your Petal and pass, but its a wasted turn as you do not get closer to playing around Daze/Pierce at all. It gets really awkward if you draw more Gemstones/Duals afterwards for obvious reasons

B) who said anything about that? I said fetches leave you the option to work around certain card combinations your opponent can hold, while you point to a combination of 3+(!!!!) specific disruption spells to discredit my general claim. It feels like someone who comes up with "TES is a crap deck, because you can't beat T1 SolLand, Chalice @ 0, Chalice @ 1!". Your Gemstone scenario gets mauled by a combination of Wasteland/Pierce/Daze as well, so whats the actual point you are trying to make? Mine is that if I run more (fetch)lands, I can work around Daze/Pierce/wasteland more reliable than with less lands or Gemstones while also having more options to react to certain scearios (drawing Probe, early pressure, etc)

C) yeah, thats why I was just talking about options. We didn't even take the card drawn in your turns drawstep and the three revealed by brainstorm into account for further analysis: if you draw another IMS in those 4 cards, you can play around Daze in addition to the Stifle. I however suspect, you will point me to an additional FoW next.

"you can't beat FoW+Pitch+Daze+Stifle by turn two so Fetchlands are bad" ... "Beating Stifle+Daze by turn two is not enough to give Fetchlands credit" ... etc.

[Tvox]

Oliver! Wasn't aware that you are on TheSource. You should have PM'd me and I would have sent a Rad package instead of that loveless letter I actually threw in the mailbox. Something along Gold-signed perfect fits or german Dread of Nights or the like for example. If you need something lemme know :)
I'll have to take you up on that in a couple of months when I can justify purchasing the xantid and some of the vintage cards you're selling ;)

[Pelikanudo]

Why do people continue to engage with the troll? I stopped almost two years ago and it feels great. Some people can't be saved, let them drown.

Please go on ignoring me... I do this, do this also... I contained a lot when you asked for what? Donations by your damaged B.S ? This is likely one of the most stupids things I ve heard in my life...You even by doing this changed the concept of donation....The main issue is that your brain is not big enough to offense me...

[davidn]

Please go on ignoring me... I do this, do this also... I contained a lot when you asked for what? Donations by your damaged B.S ? This is likely one of the most stupids things I ve heard in my life...You even by doing this changed the concept of donation....The main issue is that your brain is not big enough to offense me...


Yeah Bryant Cook stop offense him. :)

[Jaytron]

Man, the Storm camp is much more interesting to observe than the others.

[Bahamuth]

Why do people continue to engage with the troll? I stopped almost two years ago and it feels great. Some people can't be saved, let them drown.

Honestly, I get annoyed reading Pelikanudo's broken English too, but this is just really offensive to him. He is very obviously trying to have serious discussion. By saying this you're just coming across as saying that he's an idiot for even suggesting something different than your own list. I don't like running Gemstone Mines either, but I can see the benefit of having them against Stifle decks in some scenario's.

[Bryant Cook]

Honestly, I get annoyed reading Pelikanudo's broken English too, but this is just really offensive to him. He is very obviously trying to have serious discussion. By saying this you're just coming across as saying that he's an idiot for even suggesting something different than your own list. I don't like running Gemstone Mines either, but I can see the benefit of having them against Stifle decks in some scenario's.

You're looking at this in a vacuum to this specific instance. Now take a look back at the last 4 years of his posts. Up until six months ago he was preaching that Silence and Diminishing Returns were still ideal, he's stuck in the past while the rest of us are just trying to evolve the deck. He continually asks questions, when people try to explain things to him, he just says why the way he's doing things is better - if he honestly thinks this way, why bother asking? He's unwilling to try things other people recommend or listen to different thought philosophies.

As for his broken English, I feel the guy doesn't even try. Especially considering he tries to abbreviate every single god-damn thing he can.

As for offending him, good. He deserves everything he gets.

[Pelikanudo]

You're looking at this in a vacuum to this specific instance. Now take a look back at the last 4 years of his posts. Up until six months ago he was preaching that Silence and Diminishing Returns were still ideal,



Yes, I would still play D.R. IF Dark Petiton didn't exist, now I play 1 Autums Veil in the Side - I would prefer to play 1 silence instead.
I've always preferred to play Therapies and Duress instead of Silence main - The problem was that it seemed you weren't playing TES if you didn't play Suilence main... My meta was so different... and I 've always wanted such a change...




he's stuck in the past while the rest of us are just trying to evolve the deck. He continually asks questions, when people try to explain things to him, he just says why the way he's doing things is better - if he honestly thinks this way, why bother asking? He's unwilling to try things other people recommend or listen to different thought philosophies.


long time ago I dont ask questions - I ask for opinions, this is a difference.
The unique thing that got better the deck were:
Inclusions of C.Therapies and G.P. and EtW - all of these changes were idea from mainly Bahamut. Related to EtW, I recognize, I was very skeptical about this.



As for his broken English, I feel the guy doesn't even try. Especially considering he tries to abbreviate every single god-damn thing he can.


It is ok.



As for offending him, good. He deserves everything he gets.


As said, you didn't offense me!


Apart, Bahamut, please could you share your last TES list, thanks

[Bahamuth]

Apart, Bahamut, please could you share your last TES list, thanks

I never test anymore, but I can tell you what I would run now.
13 land with 2 Sea 2 Volcanic 9 Fetch (I tried basics a long time ago and didn't like them at all)
7 discard (probably 4 Duress 3 Therapy)
4 Wish (used to run 3 but with Dark Petition I think I'd go up to 4)

SB:
1 Tropical
3 Decay
3 Swarm
1 ToA
1 EtW
1 PiF
1 DP
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Thoughtsize
1 Chain of Vapor

Again, I don't test at all. I just play the occasional tournament. My experience from playing Legacy for years in the Netherlands (and sometimes elsewhere) is that you can meet basically anything in any given tournament. I don't like doing things like adding a 14th land because of a theoretical shift in the meta knowing I might very well be paired against Dredge or Belcher more than against tempo decks.

[Dr_D]

@Bryant Are you still testing with the same land base you streamed the other day (basic island, badlands etc)? I'm curious to hear your opinions, as seeing that configuration made me want to pick up TES again.

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant Are you still testing with the same land base you streamed the other day (basic island, badlands etc)? I'm curious to hear your opinions, as seeing that configuration made me want to pick up TES again.

I am not. I'm using the list on the homepage of the site. The island causes awkward hands with this deck since you need BR on turn 2 and Island doesn't help achieve this, not to mention it's pretty bad in post-board games considering how often this deck sides out Ponder. That manabase was something someone recommended to me, I think it's important to try things out to figure out proper configurations even if you dislike the idea.

[d0nkey]

My experience from playing Legacy for years in the Netherlands (and sometimes elsewhere) is that you can meet basically anything in any given tournament.

This is why my sideboard will always have maximum silver bullets.

BUT, I'm not going to come on here and try and tell any of you that it is the better idea... because it isn't. It's just better for me.

[Jaytron]

I used to play Modern Storm, so I have some experience with playing storm. I've been playing legacy for a few months now (RIP Grixis Delver).

Looking over the differences between ANT and TES (and reading the TES article), the only conclusion I've found is that TES is the more difficult of the two to pilot properly. Is that really the case, or is TES manageable without having my head explode?

[Bryant Cook]

I used to play Modern Storm, so I have some experience with playing storm. I've been playing legacy for a few months now (RIP Grixis Delver).

Looking over the differences between ANT and TES (and reading the TES article), the only conclusion I've found is that TES is the more difficult of the two to pilot properly. Is that really the case, or is TES manageable without having my head explode?

You should've taken away a lot more than that.

[Jaytron]

You should've taken away a lot more than that.

Yes, I did. I read your article (http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-vs-ant/).

Yes, they play differently, have different fundamental turns, etc. The real question I posed was; is TES that much harder to pilot than ANT?

[Bryant Cook]

Yes, I did. I read your article (http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-vs-ant/).

Yes, they play differently, have different fundamental turns, etc. The real question I posed was; is TES that much harder to pilot than ANT?

It can be, depends on your skill level. Just try them on cockatrice.

[Lemnear]

Yes, I did. I read your article (http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-vs-ant/).

Yes, they play differently, have different fundamental turns, etc. The real question I posed was; is TES that much harder to pilot than ANT?

I would put it in a different way: TES has a lot more angles to win/combo than ANT (which is basically natural spellchains and PIF loop only) and that is causing problems and losses for many TES pilots, as its often far from obvious towards which trait you have to work with a certain starting hand against a certain deck. Misjudging the situation and "forcing" certain playlines (like AN against tempo; T1 cantripping; EtW vs. SFM; etc.) will lead to eviable defeats pretty often (which a lot of players do not recognize because they didn't see alternatives in the first place), as the deck with its shaky manabase and low powered acceleration, is less forgiving than ANT

Your starting hand, draws and your opponents moves dictate when/how to combo/win, not you. It takes a long time to immediately see the difference between having to go for the burst combo or better grind it out; between using an engine or spellchain; between going for AN or EtW.

[Lormador]

I think a less-experienced view of the difference between these two decks will be more illustrative. I have a more simple-minded view, purely from a tester's standpoint.

TES uses Empty the Warrens, and you can get this turn 1 when you want it most of the time. You have options to play a slower game if you want, but if you feel like "Belcher plus options" is a reasonable plan, this can work well.

ANT plans to use discard spells into Past In Flames, fetching basic lands and using cantrip spells along the way.

There is also huge overlap between the decks, which is a strength of each of them.

[Bryant Cook]

Caleb Scherer​'s first article for theepicstorm.com:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/from-ant-to-tes/

[Bryant Cook]

TES made top 8 today: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=92665

Weirdish list.

[thefringthing]

TES made top 8 today: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=92665

Weirdish list.

A Premier IQ is a 5K, right? -1 Burning Wish +1 Preordain is kind of interesting. I wonder what the reasoning for playing two Swamps was, though.

[DarkJester]

A Premier IQ is a 5K, right? -1 Burning Wish +1 Preordain is kind of interesting. I wonder what the reasoning for playing two Swamps was, though.

I think it's a typo. 61 card-list seems like there went something wrong.:confused:

[Lemnear]

A Premier IQ is a 5K, right? -1 Burning Wish +1 Preordain is kind of interesting. I wonder what the reasoning for playing two Swamps was, though.

Its the typo which made the deck 61 cards. It should be 1 swamp only. Preordain in place of Wish isn't reasonable as you want business asap and hitting wish off AN every fucking time, so playing only 3 is nonsense, especially if you Wish->Petition->AN

[Jordon-mtg]

TES made top 8 today: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=92665

Weirdish list.

Hey guys,

I'm the guy who played tes to this top 8. I was only running one swamp, not two. The reason for the preordained was because I don't have a 4th judge foil burning wish. Couldn't bring myself to play not matching wishes! Though I have since ordered the 4th. It's 100% correct to play all 4.

[Lemnear]

Hey guys,

I'm the guy who played tes to this top 8. I was only running one swamp, not two. The reason for the preordained was because I don't have a 4th judge foil burning wish. Couldn't bring myself to play not matching wishes! Though I have since ordered the 4th. It's 100% correct to play all 4.

Thanks for dropping in Jordon! Congratulations!

[Alix444]

Hey guys,

I'm the guy who played tes to this top 8. I was only running one swamp, not two. The reason for the preordained was because I don't have a 4th judge foil burning wish. Couldn't bring myself to play not matching wishes! Though I have since ordered the 4th. It's 100% correct to play all 4.

Storm players make me want to face-palm and smile at the same time hahahaha.

[SeoHyun]

Hey everyone,

Going to be revisiting TES because SCGNJ is coming up and I need something fun to play :) I'm going to be playing a lot more to learn the matchups (had 0 test matches last time and only managed a 5-4 finish), but I had some questions about a few in particular:

My losses that tournament were to Merfolk, 2 Grixis Pyromancer, and Imperial Painter.

How do we feel about Imperial Painter? I have a tough time going off against them if they land a quick Blood Moon. All of the cantrips and void snare turn off and if they land a Painter we have to worry about countermagic. Should I be aggressively mulliganing to get a hand with a lot of natural combo pieces? Is a small Empty on turn 1 or 2 enough to kill them, or can they stabilize? Sideboarding advice?

For Merfolk, it seems pretty tough to beat a clock plus chalice of the void, free countermagic, and arcane laboratory out of the board. I'm guessing this deck is just a pretty poor matchup.

The two grixis games were extremely close, both going to 3 games and I made a few sequencing errors due to inexperience. I can see myself winning those, the other two not so much.

Thanks again for your help guys, I'll try to keep in touch and post my progress here.

[Lemnear]

Hey everyone,

Going to be revisiting TES because SCGNJ is coming up and I need something fun to play :) I'm going to be playing a lot more to learn the matchups (had 0 test matches last time and only managed a 5-4 finish), but I had some questions about a few in particular:

My losses that tournament were to Merfolk, 2 Grixis Pyromancer, and Imperial Painter.

How do we feel about Imperial Painter? I have a tough time going off against them if they land a quick Blood Moon. All of the cantrips and void snare turn off and if they land a Painter we have to worry about countermagic. Should I be aggressively mulliganing to get a hand with a lot of natural combo pieces? Is a small Empty on turn 1 or 2 enough to kill them, or can they stabilize? Sideboarding advice?

For Merfolk, it seems pretty tough to beat a clock plus chalice of the void, free countermagic, and arcane laboratory out of the board. I'm guessing this deck is just a pretty poor matchup.

The two grixis games were extremely close, both going to 3 games and I made a few sequencing errors due to inexperience. I can see myself winning those, the other two not so much.

Thanks again for your help guys, I'll try to keep in touch and post my progress here.

Its quite late to practice this deck so close to SCGNJ, so I wouldn't get my hopes high. Bloodmoon isn't your problem at all as you need red mana anyways and you can secure black mana with Swamp, Petals and Moxen. Losing against Bloodmoon is a matter of bad hands/keeps/decisions and Painter is a classic deck for the belcher.dec mode of TES.

Fish isn't much of an issue either. Decay removes all permanents and Xantids block all counterspells without them having a method to remove the bug.

This is my current SB:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Past in Flames
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

[SeoHyun]

Its quite late to practice this deck so close to SCGNJ, so I wouldn't get my hopes high. Bloodmoon isn't your problem at all as you need red mana anyways and you can secure black mana with Swamp, Petals and Moxen. Losing against Bloodmoon is a matter of bad hands/keeps/decisions and Painter is a classic deck for the belcher.dec mode of TES.

Fish isn't much of an issue either. Decay removes all permanents and Xantids block all counterspells without them having a method to remove the bug.

This is my current SB:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Past in Flames
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

Don't get my hopes high about what? Winning? That was never my goal.

Thank you for the help. I have a feeling that I'm "going too deep" to analyze what is simply a fundamental problem with my play. I will make sure to test these matchups to make sure I'm keeping appropriate hands with the correct tools to fight each one's obstacles. I'm guessing that the three sideboarded Empties is what contributes to your "Belcher" plan. If you have one naturally it makes your hands much more explosive and easier to get your opponent to wait to counter a tutor that never comes until it's too late for them to counter the Empty. I will keep this in mind.

[Lemnear]

Don't get my hopes high about what? Winning? That was never my goal.

Thank you for the help. I have a feeling that I'm "going too deep" to analyze what is simply a fundamental problem with my play. I will make sure to test these matchups to make sure I'm keeping appropriate hands with the correct tools to fight each one's obstacles. I'm guessing that the three sideboarded Empties is what contributes to your "Belcher" plan. If you have one naturally it makes your hands much more explosive and easier to get your opponent to wait to counter a tutor that never comes until it's too late for them to counter the Empty. I will keep this in mind.

"win for 4 mana instead of 6" makes the deck even faster which is relevant vs D&T and Co. as well. It is also an addition to the Miracles Matchup to pressure them with quick, low-investment EtWs for 4-6 Goblins to stress their reduced removal postboard. If they clear the board somehow, rinse and repeat while Decay keeps Counterbalance off the table

[Dr_D]

"win for 4 mana instead of 6" makes the deck even faster which is relevant vs D&T and Co. as well. It is also an addition to the Miracles Matchup to pressure them with quick, low-investment EtWs for 4-6 Goblins to stress their reduced removal postboard. If they clear the board somehow, rinse and repeat while Decay keeps Counterbalance off the table

So how do you board against Miracles and DnT?

[Lemnear]

So how do you board against Miracles and DnT?

I'm sure there are better solutions, but i'm testing with:

D&T: -2 Duress, -2 Ponder, +2 Chain, +2 EtW
Miracles: -4 Ponder, -2 Mox, +4 Decay, +2 EtW

[Final Fortune]

Xantid Swarm seems like a really dubious choice if you're not even bothering to board it in vs Miracles?

[Pelikanudo]

By the moment my try vs miracles is full A.D. plus the Single Autums veil and single Xantid which It is okish... Maybe I go back to the Doomsday + Emrakul plan vs this Archetype at some point...
Regarding that Lemnears Strategy, doesn't seem bad to just increase the number of E.T. to 3 in M.D. I still have not tested this and really want to test.
What I find redundant is also siding in the 4 A.D., as the purpose of EtW is exactly this - avoid C.B. as no matter how many C.B. there are in play - you'll be able to at least resolve 1 EtW, that's why maybe it is worth to just play Flusterstorm instead of more redundant A.D. --> uniquely for Terminus which also avoids C.B.! Fluster is also good vs S&T and reanimator however again we are in trouble if we would want to protect our combo via LED... I know the idea behind is to have odds to combo once C.B. is resolved even if the Gobs are destroyed. well these are just ideas...

[Lemnear]

Xantid Swarm seems like a really dubious choice if you're not even bothering to board it in vs Miracles?

Its not in the sideboard for this matchup in the first place. It was fine to bring in if you have nothing else, but it doesn't win you the game against Counterbalance or Clique like ever, which is the reason I will no longer board them. They are in the sideboard for Reanimator/Meerfolk/SneakShow/etc. which I expect to return

[arj]

Played in a local turney today, went 4 0. This deck is a blast to play and much better in the new no-dig meta.

[Final Fortune]

Its not in the sideboard for this matchup in the first place. It was fine to bring in if you have nothing else, but it doesn't win you the game against Counterbalance or Clique like ever, which is the reason I will no longer board them. They are in the sideboard for Reanimator/Meerfolk/SneakShow/etc. which I expect to return

I don't think a SB card dedicated to just those match ups is worth the SB space, the card gets narrower in application by the day.

[OliverFist]

On the issue ANT vs TES, what I really like is the diversity of ways to actually win the game. In many cases ANT depends on the grave and there dependency on ToA needs them to get a to a higher storm count, which is harder with grave hate.
Just a quick question: What is meant by the belcher.dec mode of the deck? I am familiar with the deck idea of belcher, but it didnt come to my mind what exactly the similarities can be in terms of a game plan.

[Lemnear]

On the issue ANT vs TES, what I really like is the diversity of ways to actually win the game. In many cases ANT depends on the grave and there dependency on ToA needs them to get a to a higher storm count, which is harder with grave hate.
Just a quick question: What is meant by the belcher.dec mode of the deck? I am familiar with the deck idea of belcher, but it didnt come to my mind what exactly the similarities can be in terms of a game plan.

The diversity of ways is a problem itself for many players as they often miss winning lines and the same is true if you look at ANT and think the deck has serious problems winning vs yard-hate in general. Both deck can simply execute pretty cheap cantrip/Artifact playlines for lethal natural Tendrils which is a trait which is especially underused by TES players as most only look at EtW or AN to win and usually forget cantrip-chains, DP-chain or PIF as options. ANT has zero problems to win w/o Cabal Rituals +3 boost or PIF. They just fire cantrips, discard, Ritual, LED, IT, ToA and win. Engines are overrated.

The Belcher-Mode of TES is simply the plan to win asap by keeping hands accordingly and building a reckless hand. It dismisses to work around Wasteland/Daze/Pierce/FoW/etc. or looking for discard with the simple goal to combo asap. It's describing the plan to YOLO with quick, risky comboturns

[OliverFist]

The diversity of ways is a problem itself for many players as they often miss winning lines and the same is true if you look at ANT and think the deck has serious problems winning vs yard-hate in general. Both deck can simply execute pretty cheap cantrip/Artifact playlines for lethal natural Tendrils which is a trait which is especially underused by TES players as most only look at EtW or AN to win and usually forget cantrip-chains, DP-chain or PIF as options. ANT has zero problems to win w/o Cabal Rituals +3 boost or PIF. They just fire cantrips, discard, Ritual, LED, IT, ToA and win. Engines are overrated.

The Belcher-Mode of TES is simply the plan to win asap by keeping hands accordingly and building a reckless hand. It dismisses to work around Wasteland/Daze/Pierce/FoW/etc. or looking for discard with the simple goal to combo asap. It's describing the plan to YOLO with quick, risky comboturns

Thanks for the explanation, I find myself rarely make use of the DP thereby you are obviously right. I am still in the beginnings of learning how to play the deck. What would you say were the biggest learning processes you made when playing TES?

[Lemnear]

I don't think a SB card dedicated to just those match ups is worth the SB space, the card gets narrower in application by the day.

It's not that these matchups are all. You can board it versus 12-Post, Infect and even more. I'm still open for suggestions.

[Lemnear]

Thanks for the explanation, I find myself rarely make use of the DP thereby you are obviously right. I am still in the beginnings of learning how to play the deck. What would you say were the biggest learning processes you made when playing TES?

I give you two:

To chill out. This deck has the potential to be damn fast, but a lot of matchups don't require you to win T1 or T2 so don't Force speed and certain playlines.

Cantrip only to find the ONE missing card. Don't expect that a cantrip fixes a shitty keep which lacks mana AND a Tutor. If that's the case, see my first advice and chill out. Once you draw into one of the missing pieces, you know what to look for with your cantrips.

[OliverFist]

So yeah, I tested the deck on the weekend against human opponents the first time. I played against a modern grixis delver and against miracles.

Grixis actually rekt me. I had many problems with the big amount of counter spells and hand disruption. I assume that I went into the combo too fast, although I knew there could be some kind of counters in his hand. 4 spell snare actually did some huge work against me. Patience is really a thing I have to get used to. With what I am really struggling concerning this is that I am afraid the amount of counterspells they will draw into is bigger than the amount of disruption I will draw. Is it a better tactic to spare the discard spells until I can use them all at once in one turn, so that therapy potentially hits more cards? Or should I disrupt constantly, that was really hard for me to decide... I am not sure what is the better tactic.

Against miracles I actually managed to go off twice, after I cast a 16 storm count EtW he topdecked Terminus. In the second game the same happened. It was not possible for me to cast ToA to kill him right away because black mana was missing or the storm count was too low. Against miracles my tactics was to try to go into the combo faster, because it probably is harder in the late game and they have more answers to threats.

...its a long way to the top...:laugh:

[Lemnear]

So yeah, I tested the deck on the weekend against human opponents the first time. I played against a modern grixis delver and against miracles.

Grixis actually rekt me. I had many problems with the big amount of counter spells and hand disruption. I assume that I went into the combo too fast, although I knew there could be some kind of counters in his hand. 4 spell snare actually did some huge work against me. Patience is really a thing I have to get used to. With what I am really struggling concerning this is that I am afraid the amount of counterspells they will draw into is bigger than the amount of disruption I will draw. Is it a better tactic to spare the discard spells until I can use them all at once in one turn, so that therapy potentially hits more cards? Or should I disrupt constantly, that was really hard for me to decide... I am not sure what is the better tactic.

Against miracles I actually managed to go off twice, after I cast a 16 storm count EtW he topdecked Terminus. In the second game the same happened. It was not possible for me to cast ToA to kill him right away because black mana was missing or the storm count was too low. Against miracles my tactics was to try to go into the combo faster, because it probably is harder in the late game and they have more answers to threats.

...its a long way to the top...:laugh:

Unless you play against combo (or desasterous turn 2 drops a la Thalia), your discard has to be cast close to or in your combo turn. You don't care for their FoW in their starting grip if you can not combo before turn 4 anyways for example. There is also no need to cantrip into Rituals/Tutor early against discard as your hand fills with mana and business all by itself. Let them cast their Thoughtseize and shit against your cantrips rather than your tutors.

In Lille I resolved a T5 AN against T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 Hymn just by making landdrops and doing nothing until I had enough mana on board and a business spell topdecked

[Bryant Cook]

11th at EE3. Report to follow.

[Bryant Cook]

My report from this weekend: http://www.theepicstorm.com/storming-into-ee3-10242015-11th/

[KaiSchafroth]

Had a bleh showing with TES at SCG St. Louis - cracked "day 2" but then turned into a potato and punted away the day to miss cashing (80/464). Largest legacy event I've ever played (something like a 5-6rounder local before that) so inexperience with playing TES over a longer haul definitely a factor plus I still consider myself new to the deck anyhow. Apologies to any opponents where I may have tanked a little long or taken longer lines than needed.
Regardless, goblins were made (130 by my count) and many tendrils stormed off. Wrestled with it a bit but settled on Bryant's 75 and it certainly felt like the right list for the weekend (the list in his above EE3 report for as the list evolves).

[Izor]

Great report, as always. Shame you didn't make top8, but yeah. That one bad matchup plus that one time the deck cheats on you are usually enough to knock you out already.


I've considered playing Surgicals to improve the Storm/Dredge/Reanimator matchups before, but I could never really find the room for them. Between the wish board, and both of the green spells which I feel are needed, I don't know what to cut. I do agree that the singleton discard spell and the 3rd Xantid are probably the only cards that are expendable. In my local meta, decks that I want Xantid against are on a decline, so I can get away playing only 2 of them for now. Though you obviously needed Xantids a lot there, so 2 may be too few.

I'm personally still playing 7 discard spells and for me it's always been the correct number. It's worth mentioning that extra discard also helps in the aforementioned combo matchups that we struggle against sometimes. That said, I only play 1 Mox (plus 14 lands), so I have one more slot for that 7th discard spell in my main. In a list with only 6 discard main, though, I'd hesitate even more cutting the discard spell from the sidebard.

[OliverFist]

Tested again against Miracles. I went I think 2 : 6 or something. There is so much reading the opponent and the situation when playing this deck. Taking more time and thinking of different lines to play. I have to practice way more to get a good routine going.

We played with sideboards. I boarded out 3 Ponder and boarded in 2 Xantid Swarm and 1 Abrupt Decay. I liked this combination, a 1:2 didnt do as well for me. At the moment I am looking for advice on what to board out without restricting the decks game plan too much. Of course it depends on the match up, but what are the common targets when sideboarding?

Thanks for the help in advance! :)

P.S.: This goddamn counterbalance, i really dont like it.

[Izor]

you should board 3-4 Abrupt Decays vs Miracles. Maybe your CB weakness will be solved then.

[d0nkey]

Tested again against Miracles. I went I think 2 : 6 or something. There is so much reading the opponent and the situation when playing this deck. Taking more time and thinking of different lines to play. I have to practice way more to get a good routine going.

We played with sideboards. I boarded out 3 Ponder and boarded in 2 Xantid Swarm and 1 Abrupt Decay. I liked this combination, a 1:2 didnt do as well for me. At the moment I am looking for advice on what to board out without restricting the decks game plan too much. Of course it depends on the match up, but what are the common targets when sideboarding?

Thanks for the help in advance! :)

P.S.: This goddamn counterbalance, i really dont like it.



Why wouldn't you board in all the abrupt decays then?

[OliverFist]

Why wouldn't you board in all the abrupt decays then?

Yes, I will try that. But what do I board out if I want to board in xantid swarm as well? All Ponders and a Duress? What do you board out aganist Miracles?

[Lemnear]

You don't have to board Xantids. They do nothing with Counterbalance on the table. You remove all Moxen and enough Ponders to fit in all your Decays and additional hate (like Xantids).

Personally I board: -2 Moxen, -4 Ponder, +4 Decay +2 EtW (3 in the SB; 4 in the 75)

[OliverFist]

You don't have to board Xantids. They do nothing with Counterbalance on the table. You remove all Moxen and enough Ponders to fit in all your Decays and additional hate (like Xantids).

Personally I board: -2 Moxen, -4 Ponder, +4 Decay +2 EtW (3 in the SB; 4 in the 75)

So you play 4 EtW? Can I see your decklist online somewhere? At thr moment I am playing the one Bryant plays. So you try to fill the board in several waves wothbEtW or why do you play 4 overall?

[Lemnear]

So you play 4 EtW? Can I see your decklist online somewhere? At thr moment I am playing the one Bryant plays. So you try to fill the board in several waves wothbEtW or why do you play 4 overall?

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Past in Flames
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

I play 4 for cheaper, natural playlines against MUD, D&T and Tempo decks. In addition you can stress Miracles' mass removal with mini-EtWs and force them into a more active role instead of just piling up stack-interaction. If they clear your ~6 goblins (which don't eat up too many resources), you can drop the next bunch. All you have to do is keeping Counterbalance off the table and thats why I have the 4 Decays you also side in addition to the CoVs against stuff like MUD or Chalice.dec in general

[Bryant Cook]

The latest TES Mailbox: http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-5/

[Lemnear]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/80/749/200/283/635821861343102406.png

Also interresting ... somehow: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/commander-2015/26175-magus-of-the-wheel

[Final Fortune]

So more expensive PIF and cheaper Magus of the Jar? Meh, still waiting for a Red Sorcery Silence.

[Pelikanudo]

At first it seemed to me ok, but it is a tough 8 mana ... PIF is just better IMHO.
as B.W. or I.T. target it is too much mana... and on its own, well you have Griselbrand which is the same cost.
maybe it is a card to be played as a 4 of in a different deck, just chaining I.T. to more mana and cast this finally to win... but seems to have the same problem as D.P. in my Shitty Deck around D.P. - too much mana to be played...

EDIT: Anyway, I'll test this... as this seems that if you have 10 mana and I.T. or another B.W. or you are able to find it you will just win.

still waiting for uncounterable Pyros...

[Bryant Cook]

Stormtroopers: We're setting up a group picture before the event Saturday morning at 9am.

[OliverFist]

Stormtroopers: We're setting up a group picture before the event Saturday morning at 9am.

Good luck! Would love to join you!

[davelin]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/80/749/200/283/635821861343102406.png

Also interresting ... somehow: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/commander-2015/26175-magus-of-the-wheel

Love the synergy with Dark Petition.

[d0nkey]

Stormtroopers: We're setting up a group picture before the event Saturday morning at 9am.

I felt pretty bad... I wanted to come say hey and thank you for the work you've done with this deck. I got to the venue late, but when I found you playing your x/1 match and started flipping for Ad Nauseum only to have it hit the Empty the Warrens for the loss.. I thought that would be a bad time.

Sorry for the bad luck, my bad.

[Lemnear]

If I look at Fröhlich, Cheon and Hear this about Bryant, it looks like this GP was a good place for flipping 4cc Sorceries to Ad Nauseam

[LDX]

Is it too soon to call the end of the 4x Empty the Warrens experiment, following this month of tournaments?

[Bryant Cook]

I felt pretty bad... I wanted to come say hey and thank you for the work you've done with this deck. I got to the venue late, but when I found you playing your x/1 match and started flipping for Ad Nauseum only to have it hit the Empty the Warrens for the loss.. I thought that would be a bad time.

Sorry for the bad luck, my bad.

No worries, I had some pretty bad luck three rounds in a row. I'm going to write about that in my next article, Ad Nauseam was definitely rough on Saturday.

It's always nice to meet other TES pilots, maybe next time.

[Lemnear]

Is it too soon to call the end of the 4x Empty the Warrens experiment, following this month of tournaments?

Did anyone even play it to drop a statement at all?

Fröhlich & Cheon played Sorcery speed ANs w/o a single mana float in their ANTs, hoping to draw into 1/3 remaining Petals plus a Ritual to win off 14 life (Cheon). Both died to flipping their single ToA. While Cheon had the option to play his AN eot, untap and win, but did not see the option

[OliverFist]

Did anyone even play it to drop a statement at all?

Fröhlich & Cheon played Sorcery speed ANs w/o a single mana float in their ANTs, hoping to draw into 1/3 remaining Petals plus a Ritual to win off 14 life (Cheon). Both died to flipping their single ToA. While Cheon had the option to play his AN eot, untap and win, but did not see the option

How did you get to know this information? I could not find any information on the event. I don't even know the name...
Edit: Ah I see, GP Seattle. But how do you know about the Ad Nauseam outcomes?