[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Lemnear]

How did you get to know this information? I could not find any information on the event. I don't even know the name...

I watched the Stream/Replays of this weekends GP SeaTac :)

Cheon (Who played ANT) even showed his fundamental understanding of the storm supertype by hinting at "the slower Storm deck playing Burning Wishes and Empty the Warrens" despite him playing 2 in his own SB (from what I have seen).

Edit: all in all I have seen/read/heared about a lot of miserable An Nauseams this weekend. I haven't taken notice of ANYONE playing with 4 EtW in the 75 so the initial question of if the approach is Ad acta can't be answered. All we have data for is that the Multi-EtW in ANT Sideboards do their work in the matchups they are in for and I asume it would not be different in TES if we can get beyond the fact that flipping these to AN when you look for Mana + Wish. -> ToA is obviously suboptimal

[OliverFist]

I watched the Stream/Replays of this weekends GP SeaTac :)

Cheon (Who played ANT) even showed his fundamental understanding of the storm supertype by hinting at "the slower Storm deck playing Burning Wishes and Empty the Warrens" despite him playing 2 in his own SB (from what I have seen).

Edit: all in all I have seen/read/heared about a lot of miserable An Nauseams this weekend. I haven't taken notice of ANYONE playing with 4 EtW in the 75 so the initial question of if the approach is Ad acta can't be answered. All we have data for is that the Multi-EtW in ANT Sideboards do their work in the matchups they are in for and I asume it would not be different in TES if we can get beyond the fact that flipping these to AN when you look for Mana + Wish. -> ToA is obviously suboptimal

Ah ok, thanks for the information! :) 4 EtW against Miracles and which decks?

[d0nkey]

No worries, I had some pretty bad luck three rounds in a row. I'm going to write about that in my next article, Ad Nauseam was definitely rough on Saturday.

It's always nice to meet other TES pilots, maybe next time.


Looking forward to that article. Been a TES pilot for years. I started playing ANT when mystical tutor was around, then stopped playing storm when mental misstep came around. When that got banned, I found TES and haven't looked back.

You'll get 'em next time.

[Bryant Cook]

Report from GP: Seattle – http://www.theepicstorm.com/my-weekend-in-seatac-11-6-9-2015/

[Lemnear]

Ah ok, thanks for the information! :) 4 EtW against Miracles and which decks?

d&t, MUD, every Delver, etc.

[Bryant Cook]

Ah ok, thanks for the information! :) 4 EtW against Miracles and which decks?


From TES Mailbox #5 (http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-5/)


Did you end up testing three copies of Empty the Warrens in the sideboard? How was it? Would you recommend it?

Would I recommend it? No. The reason being is that The EPIC Storm is known as an Empty the Warrens (ETW) based deck, hate like Terminus, Maelstrom Pulse, Golgari Charm and even things like Izzet Staticaster come in against TES. Where Ad Nauseam Tendrils (ANT) is known as a deck that rarely plays ETW, often giving them a surprise advantage. Against a deck like Miracles where the overloading game plan is supposedly at its best, they already keep in their Terminus for Xantid Swarm and the possibility of goblin tokens. You're not really doing anything other than playing into their hate cards that would otherwise be dead. Not to mention, by doing this plan, you're making Ad Nauseam an awful engine by adding in high casting cost cards while removing Chrome Mox from the deck. In a matchup where otherwise, Ad Nauseam would shine. The same thing could be said for Death and Taxes (regarding Ad Nauseam flips, less so on the creature hate). I did test this game plan for a little over a week before abandoning it all-together, it just isn't worthwhile in my eyes.

[d0nkey]

Report from GP: Seattle – http://www.theepicstorm.com/my-weekend-in-seatac-11-6-9-2015/

Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox. In response to the Chrome Mox imprint trigger, Ad Nauseam. In response to Ad Nauseam, sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond for three black mana.



I love this play.

[OliverFist]

I love this play.

Can you explain why it is of use to respond to the different triggers? The opponent can react to those anyway.
Thanks!

[Lans89]

Can you explain why it is of use to respond to the different triggers? The opponent can react to those anyway.
Thanks!

So you can still imprint after your ad nauseam flips right

[OliverFist]

So you can still imprint after your ad nauseam flips right

Thats actually a really sweet play! Thanks for pointing that out! :)

[Lemnear]

Can you explain why it is of use to respond to the different triggers? The opponent can react to those anyway.
Thanks!


So you can still imprint after your ad nauseam flips right

You cast AN with Chrome Mox' imprint trigger on the stack, which means, you can imprint any card you have in your hand after AN is resolved. Its is nothing different to breaking LED with Infernal on the stack or responding to Infernal by casting Dark Ritual/Cabal Ritual (to get around V. Clique)

[Bryant Cook]

The play is only relevant if you have Ad Nauseam in hand, a Chrome Mox without a card to imprint AND a Lion's Eye Diamond (otherwise you would just hold the mox in your hand).

[OliverFist]

Hm so I played a little bit against Mono U Control today. What do you opt for if you have more than one tutor in your hand? I had 2 BW and 1 IT, LED, Bayou, Dark Ritual. With the IT I looked for a second LED. One BW I used a turn after to get a Ponder (postboard) and lost the game next turn because my last burning wish got countered. I could have won though - With the right path.
My question: Would have been the right play --> BW for Thoughseize, Cast; Next Turn IT for 2nd LED, and BW into win? (lets say we're in an ideal world in which the opponents last counterspell was removed by thoughtseize).

I felt like using the IT in a non combo turn was wasted. My conclusion would be to hedge the risk of Counters by keeping the two tutors until the combo turn.

What do you think?

[Lemnear]

Hm so I played a little bit against Mono U Control today. What do you opt for if you have more than one tutor in your hand? I had 2 BW and 1 IT, LED, Bayou, Dark Ritual. With the IT I looked for a second LED. One BW I used a turn after to get a Ponder (postboard) and lost the game next turn because my last burning wish got countered. I could have won though - With the right path.
My question: Would have been the right play --> BW for Thoughseize, Cast; Next Turn IT for 2nd LED, and BW into win? (lets say we're in an ideal world in which the opponents last counterspell was removed by thoughtseize).

I felt like using the IT in a non combo turn was wasted. My conclusion would be to hedge the risk of Counters by keeping the two tutors until the combo turn.

What do you think?

That scenario leaves me clueless how you cast BW without a red source. If I suspect you had a volcanic in addition to the named cards, you could skip the thoughtseize and DR-IT(LED)-LED-LED-BW-DP-EtW turn 2 or wish for TS and DR-TS-LED-BW-EtW turn 3. Of course it all delends on your drawn cards in addition to what you have written. Playlines vary if you draw more mana for example and that case would favor the path with Thoughtseize

Edit: if you fear sweepers, you can play draw go here and try to overload his counters a la TS->counter, Wish->counter, wish#2->ToA and kill directly

[OliverFist]

That scenario leaves me clueless how you cast BW without a red source. If I suspect you had a volcanic in addition to the named cards, you could skip the thoughtseize and DR-IT(LED)-LED-LED-BW-DP-EtW turn 2 or wish for TS and DR-TS-LED-BW-EtW turn 3. Of course it all delends on your drawn cards in addition to what you have written. Playlines vary if you draw more mana for example and that case would favor the path with Thoughtseize

Edit: if you fear sweepers, you can play draw go here and try to overload his counters a la TS->counter, Wish->counter, wish#2->ToA and kill directly

Hey, yeah I forgot to mention I head VIsland and USea in play. It was in a later stage of the game already, I think turn 3.. Thanks for the help! :)
Nearly every Deck I play has EtW Hate Maindeck, for example Echoing Truth. Thereby I almost try to finish every game with ToA...

[OliverFist]

Jacob Redfern made Top8 in Coopersburg with TES. Here his decklist (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18749&iddeck=142182). Congrats!

[Bryant Cook]

Jacob Redfern made Top8 in Coopersburg with TES. Here his decklist (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18749&iddeck=142182). Congrats!

Old news. I was 11th in that event. It was a 3 or 4 weeks ago.

[OliverFist]

Old news. I was 11th in that event. It was a 3 or 4 weeks ago.
Whoops, didn't see that. Only saw the top 8.

[Final Fortune]

So I've been playing TES recently and cut Chrome Mox altogether for 15 Lands, 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 3 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 1 Bayou, 1 Swamp, and I'm starting to think that TES is just ANT with weaker acceleration in exchange for stronger threats at this point. I don't think 2 accelerants that you want to board out every game vs Island.dec is worth losing the MD and SB space any more, and the interesting thing about playing 15 lands is that you can comfortably cast Krosan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay in order to have a way around both Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top in a single card.

I think the threat of our speed to our opponent is more important than us realizing it in game, opponent's still mulligan aggressively for Force of Will and we can just grind them out with land drops and Cabal Therapy. I also think counter intuitively to boarding in +2 Empty the Warrens, you're better off boarding out Empty the Warrens and Ad Nauseam in favour of Past in Flames and Tendrils of Agony and playing a second Tendrils of Agony in the board for Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor natural play lines for 2xTendrils of Agony kills. The thing about Storm is staying unpredictable in terms of whether or not you are going to put Goblins on the board or utilize the graveyard as a resource, that way they are always gambling on what hate to bring in.

For that reason, I've been messng around with cutting wet blankets like SB Thoughtseize and Chain of Vapour for more and more threats, like 3 Empty the Warrens and 2 Tendrils of Agony just to keep adjusting my angles of attack vs Island.dec and relying more on the initiative of the coin flip, stability of Swamp and speed thru' threat density of Empty the Warrens vs D&T.

SB looks like this ATM,

2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Bribery
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
4 Krosan Grip

[d0nkey]

So I've been playing TES recently and cut Chrome Mox altogether for 15 Lands, 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 3 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 1 Bayou, 1 Swamp, and I'm starting to think that TES is just ANT with weaker acceleration in exchange for stronger threats at this point. I don't think 2 accelerants that you want to board out every game vs Island.dec is worth losing the MD and SB space any more, and the interesting thing about playing 15 lands is that you can comfortably cast Krosan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay in order to have a way around both Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top in a single card.

I think the threat of our speed to our opponent is more important than us realizing it in game, opponent's still mulligan aggressively for Force of Will and we can just grind them out with land drops and Cabal Therapy. I also think counter intuitively to boarding in +2 Empty the Warrens, you're better off boarding out Empty the Warrens and Ad Nauseam in favour of Past in Flames and Tendrils of Agony and playing a second Tendrils of Agony in the board for Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor natural play lines for 2xTendrils of Agony kills. The thing about Storm is staying unpredictable in terms of whether or not you are going to put Goblins on the board or utilize the graveyard as a resource, that way they are always gambling on what hate to bring in.

For that reason, I've been messng around with cutting wet blankets like SB Thoughtseize and Chain of Vapour for more and more threats, like 3 Empty the Warrens and 2 Tendrils of Agony just to keep adjusting my angles of attack vs Island.dec and relying more on the initiative of the coin flip, stability of Swamp and speed thru' threat density of Empty the Warrens vs D&T.

SB looks like this ATM,

2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Bribery
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
4 Krosan Grip


I would much rather have something that is guaranteed to kill a counterbalance at end step. Krosan grip doesn't necessarily do that.

[NLTizzle]

Hey all,

After lurking this thread for the past year I'm making my first post (in this thread) with my GP SeaTac report. http://www.theepicstorm.com/enter-the-stormtrooper-gp-seattle-11-6-9-2015/. Now that I have an account, I'm hoping to post more reports in the future.

-Donny

[Pelikanudo]

@F.Fortune:

I have to agree that K.Grip both answers SDT and C.B. but in some way A.D. also anwers SDT - at least in the combo turn to avoid Fluster on top for example, note that A.D. also hits M.Mages which Krosan Grip doesn't.
Also, I don't know how peopple conceives C.M, but for me is an accelerant also (sure this also has other applications), I I would cut C.M. I would play C.Ritual instead and maybe some copy of RoF.

On general notes about my experience from the last months from the banning of DTT: (to whom may interest)

I've been facing Tempo in all its variants and the game how it develops sometines is just curious...

The other day for example I faced a Grixis Tempo and the games developed:
I was able to cast A.N. from 13 lifes and died to a revealed EtW, however he had 3 Delver of secrets which didnt flip in 2 turns! As that torunament I was testing 2 Autums Veil instead I took out pyroclasm, which specifically this game would have bought me time to win through A.N. he had also other bear in hand which could have been discarded via my C.Therapy - at this point it was not relevant.
The second game was just imposible - he had FoW, Fluster and next he drew C.Therapy. What I think is that I should have won 1stgame.

The last day I faced Grixis Tempo, this was backwards... I just crusehd him 2-0 and I am really liking having Moxes agains this archetype likely the card I hate more from them is C.Therapy... and sure when they draw their lonely Null Rod...

I still haven't seen miracles, BUG Control is just an easy match up UNLESS they draw they onely Null Rod... which heppened to me the 2nd and 3rd game in the match up...

on overall I a happy with my 75, by the momento I will use only 1 Autums veil and still having the pyroclasm in the side.
My last torunament I won 4-1 loosing to Merfolks beacuse of a mistake I made - if any is intereseted I can share this mistake... too much drugs at this point...


Apart, If any by here is going to come to the MKM Madrid, please message me or like, sure talking about Magic bores me as hell, but between rounds we could share some joints and talk about the Universe for example! I'm really thinking in wearing a Death Metal T-Shirt... just to make pepole put me not in combo, however looking at my eyes is like saying - yes I play Storm and the rest of decks just bore me... So much time I don't play Miracles.... I have to convice my friend to not to bring Enchantress, even if it is the Combo version!!

[Bryant Cook]

So I've been playing TES recently and cut Chrome Mox altogether for 15 Lands, 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 3 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 1 Bayou, 1 Swamp, and I'm starting to think that TES is just ANT with weaker acceleration in exchange for stronger threats at this point. I don't think 2 accelerants that you want to board out every game vs Island.dec is worth losing the MD and SB space any more, and the interesting thing about playing 15 lands is that you can comfortably cast Krosan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay in order to have a way around both Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top in a single card.

I think the threat of our speed to our opponent is more important than us realizing it in game, opponent's still mulligan aggressively for Force of Will and we can just grind them out with land drops and Cabal Therapy. I also think counter intuitively to boarding in +2 Empty the Warrens, you're better off boarding out Empty the Warrens and Ad Nauseam in favour of Past in Flames and Tendrils of Agony and playing a second Tendrils of Agony in the board for Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor natural play lines for 2xTendrils of Agony kills. The thing about Storm is staying unpredictable in terms of whether or not you are going to put Goblins on the board or utilize the graveyard as a resource, that way they are always gambling on what hate to bring in.

For that reason, I've been messng around with cutting wet blankets like SB Thoughtseize and Chain of Vapour for more and more threats, like 3 Empty the Warrens and 2 Tendrils of Agony just to keep adjusting my angles of attack vs Island.dec and relying more on the initiative of the coin flip, stability of Swamp and speed thru' threat density of Empty the Warrens vs D&T.

SB looks like this ATM,

2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Bribery
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
4 Krosan Grip

I think that playing 15 lands with weaker acceleration just makes you a worse version of ANT. Especially considering they're slightly more threat dense than they were before. Not to mention, Ad Nauseam becomes way worse when it isn't a reliable kill when you don't have Past in Flames easily accessible when Ad Nauseam isn't appropriate in a game state.

These things said, I'm back at three Chrome Mox at the moment. Top 8'd a 50 man over the weekend, the list felt fantastic. Faster and more reliable ETWs & Ad Nauseams.

[Final Fortune]

There is no "solution" to Miracles, either you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top or you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance and a 3cc card on the top of their deck, personally I'd rather be strong vs Sensei's Divining Top and require the opponent to have Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance, a 3cc card and prior knowledge of me having Krosnan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay in order to pre-emptively protect his Counterbalance from it. I'm not saying Abrupt Decay is bad at all, play it if you prefer it, but I think that once you have 15 lands that playing Krosan Grip becomes a serious consideration so I'm running it ATM.

@Bryant

I had the same assumption before I tested it, but the truth is all of your common match ups are better off without Chrome Mox post-board. T2 Warrens is still good enough vs aggro-control, all I care about is whether or not the land and ritual combinations allow for it and you need Rite of Flame for that. I'm not saying you aren't going to lose games after Ad Nauseam because of not having Chrome Mox in your deck, you may very well, but getting to Ad Nauseam at all is more of an issue fwiw and post-board I'd rather be Grinding Station. For me, it's more about post-board just being more games than pre-board and not having to keep Moxes in vs aggro-control or waste SB space on Lands over the course of a match. ANT isn't really any more threat dense now than what it was, and those threats can't be cast on T2 so I don't think it matters really as a comparison.

All in all I've liked playing the deck this way, it's still easily an entire turn faster than ANT and a little grindier than TES. Vs Bug and anybody who sees Cabal Ritual game 1, it's pretty much a shitty Rite of Flame post-board any way so you may as well split the difference of having a weaker Ritual game 1 and a stronger Ritual games 2/3 with more mana efficient threats. I think even tho Rite of Flame is the weaker Ritual unopposed, nobody boards graveyard hate vs you game 2 so the Past/Tendrils engine is better as a result. It's really mutable and leads opponents into sub-optimal boarding decisions, which is what I think it's main advantage has been.

[Pelikanudo]

There is no "solution" to Miracles, either you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top or you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance and a 3cc card on the top of their deck, personally I'd rather be strong vs Sensei's Divining Top and require the opponent to have Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance, a 3cc card and prior knowledge of me having Krosnan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay in order to pre-emptively protect his Counterbalance from it.

I'm not saying Abrupt Decay is bad at all, play it if you prefer it, but I think that once you have 15 lands that playing Krosan Grip becomes a serious consideration.

I have to agree... thats why I am seriously thinking in bringing TNT to the MKM tournament instead of TES (well likely no I just enjoy playing TES...) and increment the number of Grips and decrement Decays. , but long time ago I discarded the idea of playing 4 Krosan in a 13 lands deckbased on A.N... I still play 3 C.M. 12 lands and Gemstones.

For me TNT was a rough deck, I just prefer playing TES and in MKM I'll go with TES.... sure people say that Rite of flame is better for EtW wins, but TNT is f**** powerfull, just try it! now even D.P exists is even more powerfull and gets the most of it because if C.Rituals! I can get you my last list if you want.

EDIT: mmm, maybe I can afford 1 K.Grip instead of 4th Decay...

[tescrin]

After lurking this thread for the past year I'm making my first post (in this thread) with my GP SeaTac report. http://www.theepicstorm.com/enter-the-stormtrooper-gp-seattle-11-6-9-2015/. Now that I have an account, I'm hoping to post more reports in the future.

It's pretty cool but I wish you put just a tiny bit more personality into it.

I start playing Bryant’s game of “What deck is my opponent on?” I put him on a cheap aggro deck.
This would be an exceptional part to tell us why; probably with some humor given the deck you put him on.

Otherwise, well done! (and still a good report)

[Asthereal]

These things said, I'm back at three Chrome Mox at the moment. Top 8'd a 50 man over the weekend, the list felt fantastic. Faster and more reliable ETWs & Ad Nauseams.
Welcome back to the aggressive part of the Storm archetype. :smile:

[Final Fortune]

TNT is a different deck, structurally what you care about is whether or not your rituals and tutors give you T2 Goblins or not and Cabal Ritual doesn't do that. As soon as you are playing with a 2cc ritual, you are looking at a T3 clock and Burning Wish is the slowest auxillery threat of ANT out of Dark Petition, Grim Tutor and Burning Wish.

[Asthereal]

TNT is a different deck, structurally what you care about is whether or not your rituals and tutors give you T2 Goblins or not and Cabal Ritual doesn't do that. As soon as you are playing with a 2cc ritual, you are looking at a T3 clock and Burning Wish is the slowest auxillery threat of ANT out of Dark Petition, Grim Tutor and Burning Wish.
We know. Don't worry. :cool:

For reference, my latest TNT list looks like this (I cut the basics, not sure whether that's right though):

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam /20

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual /19

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy /7

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest /14

Sideboard:
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Dark Petition
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Void Snare
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Bayou /15

[Bryant Cook]

There is no "solution" to Miracles, either you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top or you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance and a 3cc card on the top of their deck, personally I'd rather be strong vs Sensei's Divining Top and require the opponent to have Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance, a 3cc card and prior knowledge of me having Krosnan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay in order to pre-emptively protect his Counterbalance from it. I'm not saying Abrupt Decay is bad at all, play it if you prefer it, but I think that once you have 15 lands that playing Krosan Grip becomes a serious consideration so I'm running it ATM.

@Bryant

I had the same assumption before I tested it, but the truth is all of your common match ups are better off without Chrome Mox post-board. T2 Warrens is still good enough vs aggro-control, all I care about is whether or not the land and ritual combinations allow for it and you need Rite of Flame for that. I'm not saying you aren't going to lose games after Ad Nauseam because of not having Chrome Mox in your deck, you may very well, but getting to Ad Nauseam at all is more of an issue fwiw and post-board I'd rather be Grinding Station. For me, it's more about post-board just being more games than pre-board and not having to keep Moxes in vs aggro-control or waste SB space on Lands over the course of a match. ANT isn't really any more threat dense now than what it was, and those threats can't be cast on T2 so I don't think it matters really as a comparison.

All in all I've liked playing the deck this way, it's still easily an entire turn faster than ANT and a little grindier than TES. Vs Bug and anybody who sees Cabal Ritual game 1, it's pretty much a shitty Rite of Flame post-board any way so you may as well split the difference of having a weaker Ritual game 1 and a stronger Ritual games 2/3 with more mana efficient threats. I think even tho Rite of Flame is the weaker Ritual unopposed, nobody boards graveyard hate vs you game 2 so the Past/Tendrils engine is better as a result. It's really mutable and leads opponents into sub-optimal boarding decisions, which is what I think it's main advantage has been.

I mean, the last two months I was playing 14 and siding into a 15th. I actually found myself getting flooded more than twice an event which was sort of tilting.

It seems that your issues with the deck are what cause others to play different decks, play whatever works for you by all means, I've been testing tons of things the last six months. Lately I'm convinced that infinite amounts of lands arent the way to go, because you're essentially losing your initial strength to become a worse version of another deck. Once your opponents realize you're not as fast (or some that arent bright enough to know the difference) you've lost the advantage.

[Final Fortune]

I mean, the last two months I was playing 14 and siding into a 15th. I actually found myself getting flooded more than twice an event which was sort of tilting.

It seems that your issues with the deck are what cause others to play different decks, play whatever works for you by all means, I've been testing tons of things the last six months. Lately I'm convinced that infinite amounts of lands arent the way to go, because you're essentially losing your initial strength to become a worse version of another deck. Once your opponents realize you're not as fast (or some that arent bright enough to know the difference) you've lost the advantage.

I don't think any version is strictly better than the other at this point because the cards being replaced are functionally equivalent, albeit slightly different, to one another. I just think Chrome Mox puts a strain on board space, and when you are trying to run 3 Warrens, 2 Tendrils for the Grinding Station plan you have to start thinking about your main deck from a post board perspective.

I do agree tho' that there's a certain element of "WTF is he playing?" that's probably responsible for why the deck I posted is winning as much as it is tho', it may ware off but it'll take awhile.

[NLTizzle]

It's pretty cool but I wish you put just a tiny bit more personality into it.

This would be an exceptional part to tell us why; probably with some humor given the deck you put him on.

Otherwise, well done! (and still a good report)

Note taken and thanks for reading!

[Lemnear]

TNT is a different deck, structurally what you care about is whether or not your rituals and tutors give you T2 Goblins or not and Cabal Ritual doesn't do that. As soon as you are playing with a 2cc ritual, you are looking at a T3 clock and Burning Wish is the slowest auxillery threat of ANT out of Dark Petition, Grim Tutor and Burning Wish.

Thats the essence of why this deck isn't working. You need 3 IMS' most of the time and lost EtW as an early threat anyways as you can't get double red mana on any reliable base other than LED.

P.S.: I'm about to hate Dark Petition in ANT alltogether

[Pelikanudo]

Thats the essence of why this deck isn't working. You need 3 IMS' most of the time and lost EtW as an early threat anyways as you can't get double red mana on any reliable base other than LED.

P.S.: I'm about to hate Dark Petition in ANT alltogether

Well if you mean that TNT deck is not working, I would prefer to think nobody is testing this... now with D.P in conjuntion to Cabals it gained a lot instead of playing Grim Tutors... EtW in this deck is just a route, the only you need is double red which can be accomplished via LED or Petal or Volcanic or Badlands, sure this is not the main option as it is in TES, in here the main route is like in ANT - a PIF route.

@Asthereal:
What I love from TNT is the ability to be more controlling than TES and still having outs to a resolved canonist than ANT, while also beeing high on threats and making goods Ad NAuseam.
I would not cut neither 1 swamp and 1 island, I can see playing 1 C.Mox but not so much... as said TNT is more like an ANT deck which has access to a mini toolbox, before Grim Tutor was played, now D.P. is the MVP in the side.
Also the PIF plus Tendrils engine in main is just a must, having access to B.W.-> D.P.-> A.N OR PiF Loop To Tendrils.

I for example in here prefer to play 1 Tropical main instead of 1 bayou. my seond favourite deck in legacy.

Just out of curiosity: Is then people start to playing again 3 C.M.??? if so, I am happy about that...

I wonder If this is the base Bryant is currently playing....
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=895991&viewfull=1#post895991

[Lemnear]

Its absurd to talk about threat density for Cabal Ritual storm variants right after Dark Petition saw print and solved the dilemma Grim & Wish left for players of that storm subtype.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't think any version is strictly better than the other at this point because the cards being replaced are functionally equivalent, albeit slightly different, to one another. I just think Chrome Mox puts a strain on board space, and when you are trying to run 3 Warrens, 2 Tendrils for the Grinding Station plan you have to start thinking about your main deck from a post board perspective.

I do agree tho' that there's a certain element of "WTF is he playing?" that's probably responsible for why the deck I posted is winning as much as it is tho', it may ware off but it'll take awhile.

I've written a few times why I don't think the multiple Empty plan works in this deck (Essentially we're already known as the Goblin token deck and playing into that doesn't help), but I think you're sacrificing a lot with your sideboard in an attempt to beat Miracles. You're bringing in 4 Krosan Grip, 3 ETW, 2 TOA and possibly 1 PIF. Ten cards! In a match-up with even all of that, that still isn't overwhelmingly favorable. You're losing ground in other match-ups by having such a narrow sideboard.

There are plenty of decks in this format where Chrome Mox is exactly what I want, I think people tend to over exaggerate the number of Miracles/Delver pilots in a given field.



I wonder If this is the base Bryant is currently playing....
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=895991&viewfull=1#post895991

So... You took my list from two posts above that and made one change to it (something that I had already discussed in the thread), then are claiming for it to be your own? Classic.

You've been added to my ignore list, I don't know why I didn't think to add you to it before.

[Pelikanudo]

So... You took my list from two posts above that and made one change to it (something that I had already discussed in the thread), then are claiming for it to be your own? Classic.

You've been added to my ignore list, I don't know why I didn't think to add you to it before.

Thanks for belonging to your ingnore list, this seems the unique way to just ignore me....!

A difference between you and me is that you NEED to test things to figure out what is the best stuff - I refer mainly on TES Deck basis - I just intuitively know that 3 C.M. belongs to TES. it is curious that in the events you played I was shocked for example that the 1st match up you won vs MUD was because you DREW the 2 C.M in your opening. and other things happened to make you undestand that 3 C.M. belongs to TES. even you seem to play other events right after this one and still played 2 C.M.


@Lemnear:
I talk about Threat density in regards to B.W. and D.P. because D.P. played in multiple makes A.N. worse, this is a difference if you play B.W. instead of D.P.:
What I wrote: What I love from TNT is the ability to be more controlling than TES and still having outs to a resolved canonist than ANT, while also beeing high on threats AND making goods Ad NAuseam.

I like sometimes the way people uses the 'absurd' word...

[Asthereal]

@Asthereal:
What I love from TNT is the ability to be more controlling than TES and still having outs to a resolved canonist than ANT, while also beeing high on threats and making goods Ad NAuseam.
I would not cut neither 1 swamp and 1 island, I can see playing 1 C.Mox but not so much... as said TNT is more like an ANT deck which has access to a mini toolbox, before Grim Tutor was played, now D.P. is the MVP in the side.
Also the PIF plus Tendrils engine in main is just a must, having access to B.W.-> D.P.-> A.N OR PiF Loop To Tendrils.

I for example in here prefer to play 1 Tropical main instead of 1 bayou. my second favourite deck in legacy.
It might be incorrect to discuss TNT here, but I'll just respond very briefly. If you want, we can create a separate thread for the deck. Not sure we need to though, since ANT and TES are already very close to each other, and TNT is more or less a hybrid, which could be discussed in both threads. F.i. my TNT list looks like TES with Cabal Ritual instead of Rite of Flame, and Empty the Warrens on side rather than main deck. Other than that it's just a TES list. (I actually feel TNT should be discussed here rather than in the ANT thread, because the misnamed deck ANT almost never uses Ad Nauseam, where both TES and TNT are tuned around it.)

TNT was designed by Team Nijmegen (Tendrils, hence the name). The idea was to tune for a strong Ad Nauseam mainly. Wish was there for flexibility, better threat density and so you didn't need Tendrils main deck, but Cabal Ritual does give you a slightly higher average CMC than Rite, so you kind of need a few Chrome Moxen.

Team Nijmegen, as far as I know, always used basics, but it's not set in stone. You can play controllish by just playing fetches and not -or very selectively- using them. I'm not sure whether we really need the basics. I'll be more certain when the meta settles, but even if everything just goes back to what it was before Cruise and Dig got printed, even then I didn't run basics, and I never lost because of that fact. My TNT list from back then actually worked really well against Canadian Thresh (which should be the deck that capitalizes most on you not having basics).

[Final Fortune]

I've written a few times why I don't think the multiple Empty plan works in this deck (Essentially we're already known as the Goblin token deck and playing into that doesn't help), but I think you're sacrificing a lot with your sideboard in an attempt to beat Miracles. You're bringing in 4 Krosan Grip, 3 ETW, 2 TOA and possibly 1 PIF. Ten cards! In a match-up with even all of that, that still isn't overwhelmingly favorable. You're losing ground in other match-ups by having such a narrow sideboard

There are plenty of decks in this format where Chrome Mox is exactly what I want, I think people tend to over exaggerate the number of Miracles/Delver pilots in a given field.



So... You took my list from two posts above that and made one change to it (something that I had already discussed in the thread), then are claiming for it to be your own? Classic.

You've been added to my ignore list, I don't know why I didn't think to add you to it before.

I never SB all 10 cards at once, I SB in different sets of cards game 2 and game 3 in order to take advantage of the opponent's preconceptions of what I am and am not playing.

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear:
I talk about Threat density in regards to B.W. and D.P. because D.P. played in multiple makes A.N. worse, this is a difference if you play B.W. instead of D.P.:
What I wrote: What I love from TNT is the ability to be more controlling than TES and still having outs to a resolved canonist than ANT, while also beeing high on threats AND making goods Ad NAuseam.

I like sometimes the way people uses the 'absurd' word...

Well, it doesn't imply that you will run DP and AN in one maindeck or that AN is even required in ANT in the first place. In addition I disagree with "good Ad Nauseams" if you need Red & Black mana post Ad Nauseam in a deck w/o chrome moxen or Rites, but higher average cmc and less options to accelate from zero or one mana float. I disagree with the later term of "better ad nauseams" and point to DP in terms of threat density. If you want a fast and yard-independant option while increasing the threat density in ANT, the solution is DP+EtW, not Wishes imo

The GP coverage delivered two picture perfect examples of ANT Ad Nauseams w/o mana floated and TNT is even worse requiring red mana.

[Bryant Cook]

I never SB all 10 cards at once, I SB in different sets of cards game 2 and game 3 in order to take advantage of the opponent's preconceptions of what I am and am not playing.

So, you're playing 10 cards for a match-up but not even using them all at once? It kind of makes my point even more valid. You're welcome to give us all more feedback when you've done more testing.

[Turboninja]

I took T.E.S. to a 16-man tournament and split in finals.

I used the list from October on theepicstorm.com

I'm not going to make a big report, because there wasn't a lot of play involved.

1st round 2-0 against mono-black value

It wasn't really strong and the player was had not played legacy in 3 years. Nothing much to say.

2nd round 2-0 against Goblin

Really easy matchup I find.

3rd round 2-0 against Sneak and Show

Game two he showed an Emmy while I got Xantid Swarm and won the next turn.

4th round Draw.

Semi-finals 2-0 against same Goblin.

Finals was against Stoneblade but I had to leave, so we split.

I love the deck, had easy matchups and got 4 turn one wins over 8 games.

I've been piloting for two months now.

That's all :)

[Final Fortune]

So, you're playing 10 cards for a match-up but not even using them all at once? It kind of makes my point even more valid. You're welcome to give us all more feedback when you've done more testing.

No, different sets of cards are used vs different types of aggro-control and control based on what they're playing and SBing in, you have the information advantage via Discard so you can figure out whether or not they're boarding for Empty the Warrens, the graveyard etc. and make adjustments as needed between Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, Empty the Warrens etc. I SBed vs Island.dec, not Miracles.

[Bryant Cook]

No, different sets of cards are used vs different types of aggro-control and control based on what they're playing and SBing in, you have the information advantage via Discard so you can figure out whether or not they're boarding for Empty the Warrens, the graveyard etc. and make adjustments as needed between Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, Empty the Warrens etc. I SBed vs Island.dec, not Miracles.

Well, how do you side against Miracles then?

Because that's the best match-up for grinding-station mode, but you're claiming not to use it. Since you would be siding in the Krosan Grips?

Where would you like the Grinding Station package if not Miracles? Delver variants? That plan has a very tough time against a turn one Delver of Secrets.

[Final Fortune]

At the moment I just SB in Grips and PIF/Tendrils vs Miracles so I can double Tendrils thru Wish -> Tendrils -> Infernal -> Tendrils. Warrens are more for aggro-control but I try never to board the same way in both G2 and G3. Mainly the board space is there in order not to have a default boarding plan for both G2 and G3 or on the play or on the draw.

[Bryant Cook]

At the moment I just SB in Grips and PIF/Tendrils vs Miracles so I can double Tendrils thru Wish -> Tendrils -> Infernal -> Tendrils. Warrens are more for aggro-control but I try never to board the same way in both G2 and G3. Mainly the board space is there in order not to have a default boarding plan for both G2 and G3 or on the play or on the draw.

That plan is fine for Miracles.

As for Aggro control, I think slow Empty the Warrens (Past turn 1) are often tough due to Deathrite Shaman + any other creature, which is easier to create when you're not doing it until turn 2-3 and for 10-12 Goblins. I think this is where the speed of Chrome Mox really helps. I know that the empty plan is for D&T too, but that is one of the best match-ups for Ad Nauseam. You're making your best engine worst to give them more possible outs through Batterskull and/or Ratchet Bomb.

[Pelikanudo]

It might be incorrect to discuss TNT here, but I'll just respond very briefly. If you want, we can create a separate thread for the deck. Not sure we need to though, since ANT and TES are already very close to each other, and TNT is more or less a hybrid, which could be discussed in both threads. F.i. my TNT list looks like TES with Cabal Ritual instead of Rite of Flame, and Empty the Warrens on side rather than main deck. Other than that it's just a TES list. (I actually feel TNT should be discussed here rather than in the ANT thread, because the misnamed deck ANT almost never uses Ad Nauseam, where both TES and TNT are tuned around it.)

TNT was designed by Team Nijmegen (Tendrils, hence the name). The idea was to tune for a strong Ad Nauseam mainly. Wish was there for flexibility, better threat density and so you didn't need Tendrils main deck, but Cabal Ritual does give you a slightly higher average CMC than Rite, so you kind of need a few Chrome Moxen.

Team Nijmegen, as far as I know, always used basics, but it's not set in stone. You can play controllish by just playing fetches and not -or very selectively- using them. I'm not sure whether we really need the basics. I'll be more certain when the meta settles, but even if everything just goes back to what it was before Cruise and Dig got printed, even then I didn't run basics, and I never lost because of that fact. My TNT list from back then actually worked really well against Canadian Thresh (which should be the deck that capitalizes most on you not having basics).

Well the Base List I refer to is the following:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8757&iddeck=63928

I really don't know who was the creator, I think was a boy in Barcelona, but maybe was that Team.
The need of Tendrils main is a must in this archetype, and also the Past In Flames,
the need to Grim Tutor in the side was also a must and wanted to make emphasis that it is better to play 4 I.T. 3 B.W. than backwards.
My version was like this except I substituited C.M. by Tropical Island and after some testing I noticed that I preferred T.I. instead of Bayou as you first want to stabilize and next to win.

This was my version:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493&iddeck=76528 - Look at the rest of Top 8 which I crushed, I crushed so many Blue decks in here...
which was update from then -1 Island +1 T.I and the side also has several changes... as D.P. instead of G.T. or Decays and Krosans. I remember that torunament and I made the easy 9-1 loosing uniquely vs the boy I faced in the finals, whch I won that time...

The behaviour of this deck is more like ANT than TES, at least these 2 archetypes I expose you.
Not much time ago I tried an experiment which consisted in full of B.W. and EtW base instead of PiF and Tendrils, that was a mistake that I shouldn't have even tried...
EtW base requires RoF and C.M.
PiF Loops requires Cabals Rituals and TEndrils Main
B.W. exists in TNT as both toolbox, alternate WinCon and Threat Density - at least in that era.

The last time I'm aware this deck was played was in GP Paris by a friend of Mine (my padawan) - I remember he made Day 2 and crushed a Sourcer by here named Tom T. he was playing TES, he got top 100.

Even I recognize the deck has quick wins - which need to go through LED, is not as quick as TES, this is something I will miss forever from the rest of Storm Archetypes and I include in here TNT also. this is the unique reason I still play TES - because you can bypass a hand of Fluster daze and stifle if you start, as simple as this. I really love the ability of TES to just going off when there is a chance, this ability is only restricted to TES deck. and sadly C.M. contributes to this purpose.
Well I will wait for uncounterable Pyro and a not as bad C.M....


@Lemenear:

You: Well, it doesn't imply that you will run DP and AN in one maindeck or that AN is even required in ANT in the first place. In addition I disagree with "good Ad Nauseams" if you need Red & Black mana post Ad Nauseam in a deck w/o chrome moxen or Rites, but higher average cmc and less options to accelate from zero or one mana float. I disagree with the later term of "better ad nauseams" and point to DP in terms of threat density. If you want a fast and yard-independant option while increasing the threat density in ANT, the solution is DP+EtW, not Wishes imo.

Me: you have worse Ad nauseams if you play D.P. than B.W., agree you need some mana floating, however if you pass the turn you just will win more likely than playing D.P.
I will say SlothTheDark Words in regards to EtW - EtW is a Path To Victory but should not be The Path To Victory for 2nd and 3rd games mosts of the times. I just need to agree, at least in ANT archetypes. I just dont want to choose between Ad Nauseam and EtW, why? I can choose to have both in TNT!

The GP coverage delivered two picture perfect examples of ANT Ad Nauseams w/o mana floated and TNT is even worse requiring red mana.

[JPoJohnson]

Pelikanudo - I don't understand what you're wanting from this thread. Your posts are long and there's no useful or viable content contained in it. You're like an old lady that just keeps talking and talking and never gets to the point of her story.

If you want to develop a deck that, as you have stated with your own words, is an ANT variant, why do you keep posting here in TES and take up time and space that isn't productive to the development of the TES deck. Go post in the appropriate forum and stop spamming up this thread with unnecessary and unproductive posts that annoy everyone.

[Lemnear]

@Lemenear:

You: Well, it doesn't imply that you will run DP and AN in one maindeck or that AN is even required in ANT in the first place. In addition I disagree with "good Ad Nauseams" if you need Red & Black mana post Ad Nauseam in a deck w/o chrome moxen or Rites, but higher average cmc and less options to accelate from zero or one mana float. I disagree with the later term of "better ad nauseams" and point to DP in terms of threat density. If you want a fast and yard-independant option while increasing the threat density in ANT, the solution is DP+EtW, not Wishes imo.

Me: you have worse Ad nauseams if you play D.P. than B.W., agree you need some mana floating, however if you pass the turn you just will win more likely than playing D.P.
I will say SlothTheDark Words in regards to EtW - EtW is a Path To Victory but should not be The Path To Victory for 2nd and 3rd games mosts of the times. I just need to agree, at least in ANT archetypes. I just dont want to choose between Ad Nauseam and EtW, why? I can choose to have both in TNT!

The GP coverage delivered two picture perfect examples of ANT Ad Nauseams w/o mana floated and TNT is even worse requiring red mana.

Wait, is going down to Bolt-/Delver-Range and pass the turn suddenly a legit play against Tempo/Mud/Thalia/Thorn/Chalice/etc. or do you consider that Ad Nauseam mimicing a costy Draw7 is fine in other matchups than control?

[Final Fortune]

That plan is fine for Miracles.

As for Aggro control, I think slow Empty the Warrens (Past turn 1) are often tough due to Deathrite Shaman + any other creature, which is easier to create when you're not doing it until turn 2-3 and for 10-12 Goblins. I think this is where the speed of Chrome Mox really helps. I know that the empty plan is for D&T too, but that is one of the best match-ups for Ad Nauseam. You're making your best engine worst to give them more possible outs through Batterskull and/or Ratchet Bomb.

I'm having mixed results with Empty the Warrens, I usually go for a handful of Goblins and then finish them off with a Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony. It's hard to judge the efficacy of the strategy, since opponent's SBs differ so much in terms of token hate.

I think I'm going to give your list a try, I know you don't like the Empty the Warrens plan, but have you thought about SBing out the 2 discard spells and SBing in 2 Empty the Warrens in aggro-control match ups? I was thinking we could just rely on Cabal Therapy and Burning Wish->Discard to get thru' the counter wall in the mid-game and the Warrens would let us rape them hard on the play.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm having mixed results with Empty the Warrens, I usually go for a handful of Goblins and then finish them off with a Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony. It's hard to judge the efficacy of the strategy, since opponent's SBs differ so much in terms of token hate.

I think I'm going to give your list a try, I know you don't like the Empty the Warrens plan, but have you thought about SBing out the 2 discard spells and SBing in 2 Empty the Warrens in aggro-control match ups? I was thinking we could just rely on Cabal Therapy and Burning Wish->Discard to get thru' the counter wall in the mid-game and the Warrens would let us rape them hard on the play.

I mean, I did test it when it was suggested again. I haven't tested it since I moved back to 3 Chrome Mox, which would help that plan.

I just don't think it's reliable against the non-RUG Delver, Delver decks if it's not for more than 10. A Deathrite Shaman and any other creature trump the entire Strategy. Admittedly, Ad Nauseam isn't great in those match-ups, but it's going to be even worse with 3 ETW in the deck which could be disastrous if they're holding sweepers and we don't have a Cabal Therapy in the graveyard (Haven't seen and/or DRS).

I'm extremely happy with my current list, but I'll try the sideboard Warrens plan again (Now with 3 Mox) in the week before SCG:NJ. I likely won't change my opinion as I was just testing this last month and I don't think my list has changed enough to make me change my mind.

[Final Fortune]

Well I think it's a game 2 or 3 strategy when you're on the play, because if you've lost game 1 they are going to Mulligan into Force of Will game 2 and you can Storm out 8 Goblins and get there to reach game 3 and then SB them back out.

With that much acceleration behind them I think they're a pretty strong gambit. I think Ad Nauseam is still OK as long as you use it as a D7 into Warrens + Therapy, or maybe just put in the Past/Tendril kill and cut Ad Nauseam and Ponders.

[Pelikanudo]

I'm having mixed results with Empty the Warrens, I usually go for a handful of Goblins and then finish them off with a Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony. It's hard to judge the efficacy of the strategy, since opponent's SBs differ so much in terms of token hate.

I think I'm going to give your list a try, I know you don't like the Empty the Warrens plan, but have you thought about SBing out the 2 discard spells and SBing in 2 Empty the Warrens in aggro-control match ups? I was thinking we could just rely on Cabal Therapy and Burning Wish->Discard to get thru' the counter wall in the mid-game and the Warrens would let us rape them hard on the play.


if you plan that strategy vs Tempo, I believe that taking out discard spells is just wrong as they now play Stifle which will target EtW, on the other side maybe you could make mind-games to make the opp. use his/her stifles vs your fetches, but this is not a guarrantied strategy, I would opt to take out other cards instead of discard, discard can also target pyroclasm effects.


@Lemnear:
Wait, is going down to Bolt-/Delver-Range and pass the turn suddenly a legit play against Tempo/Mud/Thalia/Thorn/Chalice/etc. or do you consider that Ad Nauseam mimicing a costy Draw7 is fine in other matchups than control?

No, this is not a legit play against Tempo/Mud/Thalia/Thorn/Chalice/etc, maybe only in the scenarios when you can win on the next turn withouth beeing bolted orThalied.
I consider that Ad Nauseam mimicing a costy Draw7 is fine in other matchups than control, for example vs Combo.

@JPoJohnson: Please add me to your ignore list, I already did so. and problem solved.

[Final Fortune]

if you plan that strategy vs Tempo, I believe that taking out discard spells is just wrong as they now play Stifle which will target EtW, on the other side maybe you could make mind-games to make the opp. use his/her stifles vs your fetches, but this is not a guarrantied strategy, I would opt to take out other cards instead of discard, discard can also target pyroclasm effects.

You obviously don't SB Empty the Warrens vs aggro-control decks that play Stifle, and discard is irrelevant in situations where you're trying to push for Empty the Warrens before they can play their first land. That said, I don't object to SBing out a number of Ponder instead.

[Pelikanudo]

You obviously don't SB Empty the Warrens vs aggro-control decks that play Stifle, and discard is irrelevant in situations where you're trying to push for Empty the Warrens before they can play their first land. That said, I don't object to SBing out a number of Ponder instead.

if you refer to agro-control decks with daze, delver and FoW AND (Nimble OR Deathrite) - well, these archetypes are returning to full stifle package, at least in my meta, but well maybe you refer to other archetypes...

Apart, I' m getting good results vs Miracles in testing!!!!! YES! and I believe TES is the best deck suited to face Miracles, at least in 1st game. I think I am ready to win the MKM Series! ha ha ha.

[Final Fortune]

I have never seen BUG run Stifle MD, it makes no sense for a Hymn/Sinkhole deck to do that.

[Pelikanudo]

I have never seen BUG run Stifle MD, it makes no sense for a Hymn/Sinkhole deck to do that.p
Agree on this - these decks dont play Stifle

I see this as example of the archetypè I refer to:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18767&iddeck=142325
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18767&iddeck=142338
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18656&iddeck=141404 - this is an example with no stifles - exactly this deck won me , althoutgh 1st game I was able to cast A.N at 13 lifes I regretted to not to play pyroclasm in side... but 2nd was just impossible to win....

In my personal experience I have 0 problems vs this archetype unless they are able to land a null rod but they only play usually 1... or hitting several therapies -
also vs these archetypes sidint out discard is the last thing I do as a duress hitting a hymn is one of the best things you can do, but again I don't use the Overload EtW strategy...
I dont see hymn in these decks...

[Bryant Cook]

I have never seen BUG run Stifle MD, it makes no sense for a Hymn/Sinkhole deck to do that.

But BUG is the only Delver deck that doesnt run Stifle. Even the Grixis decks around here run them. I did some limited testing yesterday and my results were mediocre.

[Asthereal]

I have never seen BUG run Stifle MD, it makes no sense for a Hymn/Sinkhole deck to do that.
This may change. Stifle helps against some of the harder matchups: Miracle triggers, Liliana sacs, Bloodbraid cascades, Wasteland activations. I could go on. And let's not forget the fact that not all Team America/BUG Delver lists run Hymn. There's enough of them running Thoughtseize, or no discard at all. Hymn requires BB, wich puts quite a strain on the mana base. If you can avoid running cards that cost BB, the mana base becomes much more streamlined.

(Side note: If I find time, I will actually test Stifle in my Hymn T/A list. Hymn tends to hit lands every now and then, and Stifle can help keeping them mana screwed. The sequencing is somewhat challenging, but that's a matter of knowing the matchup and prioritizing properly.)

(Second side note: Last time I saw Sinkhole in a blue deck was in 2008.)

[LDX]

Sorry to interrupt, very quick question.

Playing against unknown on the draw. Got a very decent hand for a natural Empty the Warrens on turn 2, around 10, which would be fine against Delver or Miracles. I have a Ponder in hand to accelerate the process, switch to Ad Nauseam for more mana, or get a greater Storm count, and I a Cabal Therapy for protection. I just can't go turn 1 because a lack of IMS.

On his first turn, my opponent plays Tundra > Sensei's Divining Top.

I had the choice between a Ponder and Cabal Therapy for Counterbalance. Without thinking, I went for Ponder, he plays Counterbalance turn 2.

Was playing the Therapy the obvious choice?

[paeng4983]

very quick question.

Playing against unknown on the draw.
On his first turn, my opponent plays Tundra > Sensei's Divining Top.
I had the choice between a Ponder and Cabal Therapy for Counterbalance.
I went for Ponder
he plays Counterbalance turn 2.

Was playing the Therapy the obvious choice?


The moment you saw Tundra plus Top, and you have a Cabal Therapy option, you should have gone that route to protect yourself.

Now that with his counter lock is there, it will be an uphill battle for you.

[Bryant Cook]

I would've therapied for sure, attempt to grind with tokens. Flash back for any countermagic and try to win with Ad Nauseam.

[LDX]

The moment you saw Tundra plus Top, and you have a Cabal Therapy option, you should have gone that route to protect yourself.

Now that with his counter lock is there, it will be an uphill battle for you.


I would've therapied for sure, attempt to grind with tokens. Flash back for any countermagic and try to win with Ad Nauseam.

Thanks guys, will try to think before I play next time.

[Dark Ritual]

In game 1 we have zero outs other than getting lucky against a resolved countertop softlock so therapy on CB is definitely right. Not to mention if ponder is your only cantrip ponder is best combined with a fetch afterwards to shuffle the chaff away if you have to.

[OliverFist]

Sorry to interrupt, very quick question.

Playing against unknown on the draw. Got a very decent hand for a natural Empty the Warrens on turn 2, around 10, which would be fine against Delver or Miracles. I have a Ponder in hand to accelerate the process, switch to Ad Nauseam for more mana, or get a greater Storm count, and I a Cabal Therapy for protection. I just can't go turn 1 because a lack of IMS.

On his first turn, my opponent plays Tundra > Sensei's Divining Top.

I had the choice between a Ponder and Cabal Therapy for Counterbalance. Without thinking, I went for Ponder, he plays Counterbalance turn 2.

Was playing the Therapy the obvious choice?

What is IMS again? Thx for the reply

[Pilhas]

What is IMS again? Thx for the reply

Instant Mana Source

[DarkJester]

Initial Mana Source
Corrected that for you ;) There's a difference...

[Pilhas]

Corrected that for you ;) There's a difference...

Was thinking about that... I new it didn't stand for dark ritual or rite but still couldn't find a better word :)

[Final Fortune]

@Bryant

I've been playing your list and I have to say that I really like it, 2 observations tho' 1) I am losing games to Badlands not being Volcanic Island, it has forced me to play a Fetchland on T1 in order to tutor for a land to be able to cast a cantrip instead of being able to wait until T2 to cast a cantrip off a Volcanic Island and then shuffle away the bad cards. 2) I think if you are only running 6 Discard then 2 Thoughtseize is better than 2 Duress, the life loss isn't a significant issue and being able to get more utility out of Swamp post-board vs D&T by keeping them on the play has been pretty useful.

[Lemnear]

@Bryant

I've been playing your list and I have to say that I really like it, 2 observations tho' 1) I am losing games to Badlands not being Volcanic Island, it has forced me to play a Fetchland on T1 in order to tutor for a land to be able to cast a cantrip instead of being able to wait until T2 to cast a cantrip off a Volcanic Island and then shuffle away the bad cards. 2) I think if you are only running 6 Discard then 2 Thoughtseize is better than 2 Duress, the life loss isn't a significant issue and being able to get more utility out of Swamp post-board vs D&T by keeping them on the play has been pretty useful.

Why should you keep thoughtseize in vs D&T rather than exchanging it for removal?

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant

I've been playing your list and I have to say that I really like it, 2 observations tho' 1) I am losing games to Badlands not being Volcanic Island, it has forced me to play a Fetchland on T1 in order to tutor for a land to be able to cast a cantrip instead of being able to wait until T2 to cast a cantrip off a Volcanic Island and then shuffle away the bad cards. 2) I think if you are only running 6 Discard then 2 Thoughtseize is better than 2 Duress, the life loss isn't a significant issue and being able to get more utility out of Swamp post-board vs D&T by keeping them on the play has been pretty useful.

How is the lifeloss not an issue? We're an Ad Nauseam deck. Not to mention, it's really bad against Delver decks as it helps their tempo. I've been really liking Badlands, to each their own, play a Volcanic then? Being able to play a Brainstorm, fetch, discard spell and still have red on the next turn is worth it to me as that happens more often than the corner cases that Badlands doesn't cast a Cantrip.

[Final Fortune]

Why should you keep thoughtseize in vs D&T rather than exchanging it for removal?

Because I don't want to have to exchange my discard for removal, when you aren't forced to SB out Duress for its inability to target relevant disruption you can choose to SB out other cards instead.

Edit: I said significant issue, with 3 Mox back in the deck I haven't had a problem with fizzling out vs anything but RUG.

[Bryant Cook]

Because I don't want to have to exchange my discard for removal, when you aren't forced to SB out Duress for its inability to target relevant disruption you can choose to SB out other cards instead.

Edit: I said significant issue, with 3 Mox back in the deck I haven't had a problem with fizzling out vs anything but RUG.

Try it out and report back then? I'd be open to the idea but Grixis is essentially the same as RUG but more popular in the northeast US.

[lilevo]

I would not keep thoughtseize in vs a deck playing bolts.

[OliverFist]

Isn't this really dependent on the meta? What are the cards that Thoughtseize hits and Duress doesn't? Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist. Many of the other spells we want the opponent to discard are counters or combo pieces, which are most of the time non-creature cards like Show and Tell. Nonetheless if there are many decks (D&T, Maverick) that run creature hate against us, it looks like Thoughtseize is worth a try. Otherwise losing 2 life means less resources for Ad Nauseam draws.
I like Badlands and really value the possibility of being able to cast discard spells and having red. It is obviously not possible to get rid of all weaknesses such as not being able to shuffle away bad cards with a fetchland on turn 2, but Brainstorm is only 1/3 of our cantrips thereby I would assume this does not happen too often. How often did you lose games to this happening to you?

@Lemnear: I would board against D&T = In: 2 Chain of Vapor, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Massacre; Out: 3 Ponder, 2 Duress, 1 Chrome Mox; What would you board. You play the 4 Empty the Warrens in the 75, Would you go for the 4 EtW Main Deck, post board?

[Lemnear]

Isn't this really dependent on the meta? What are the cards that Thoughtseize hits and Duress doesn't? Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist. Many of the other spells we want the opponent to discard are counters or combo pieces, which are most of the time non-creature cards like Show and Tell. Nonetheless if there are many decks (D&T, Maverick) that run creature hate against us, it looks like Thoughtseize is worth a try. Otherwise losing 2 life means less resources for Ad Nauseam draws.

Point is: you don't want discard against those hatebear decks, but combo asap. Let them drop their Thalia/Teeg/etc after you have 12+ toblins in the table for example. Thats where you want to be. Your discard is pointless against topdecked hatebears in addition.


@Lemnear: I would board against D&T = In: 2 Chain of Vapor, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Massacre; Out: 3 Ponder, 2 Duress, 1 Chrome Mox; What would you board. You play the 4 Empty the Warrens in the 75, Would you go for the 4 EtW Main Deck, post board?

With the 3 EtW in SB I would remove the two Duress from MB and board in 2 EtW (3 MB, 1 SB postboard). Don't board out Moxen against a deck which forces you to be quick and never board in Massacre. It stays a Wish-target to grab early and play the draw-go against D&T if they have a plains in play

[Final Fortune]

I use pretty much the same strategy vs D&T except I keep in Thoughtseize and take out Ponder, I just like having more options to SB anyway I want to instead of have to and it's useful vs random stuff like Vendilion Clique and Meddling Mage.

I don't really have a problem with casting discard on one turn and then needing the same land to cast Red on the next turn, especially with 3 Chrome Mox. I find the cards like Swamp, Bayou and Badlands tend to mess up the "Fetchland, go" strategy and even debate Bloodstained Mire and Swamp since the deck doesn't really want to rush its discard and the U/G fetch lets you pass yourself off as BUG for the first game. It matters a lot in the aggro-control match ups where optimal cantrips are game winning.

[Asthereal]

I use pretty much the same strategy vs D&T except I keep in Thoughtseize and take out Ponder, I just like having more options to SB anyway I want to instead of have to and it's useful vs random stuff like Vendilion Clique and Meddling Mage.

I don't really have a problem with casting discard on one turn and then needing the same land to cast Red on the next turn, especially with 3 Chrome Mox. I find the cards like Swamp, Bayou and Badlands tend to mess up the "Fetchland, go" strategy and even debate Bloodstained Mire and Swamp since the deck doesn't really want to rush its discard and the U/G fetch lets you pass yourself off as BUG for the first game. It matters a lot in the aggro-control match ups where optimal cantrips are game winning.
This post makes no sense at all. What do you mean to say?

The discussion you respond to was about Death & Taxes.
D&T doesn't play Clique. Fetch-go is bad against D&T. Against D&T, if you want discard, you must play it turn one. In this particular matchup the deck does want to rush its discard. That, plus the topdecked hate bear, is why Lem doesn't like the discard.

[Final Fortune]

This post makes no sense at all. What do you mean to say?

The discussion you respond to was about Death & Taxes.
D&T doesn't play Clique. Fetch-go is bad against D&T. Against D&T, if you want discard, you must play it turn one. In this particular matchup the deck does want to rush its discard. That, plus the topdecked hate bear, is why Lem doesn't like the discard.

It's simple, Thoughtseize is strictly better vs D&T than Duress, if that isn't relevant post-board to Lemnear than it's still relevant to him pre-board regardless, and it's situationally better vs control's Vendillion Clique and Meddling Mage in spite of the life loss for Ad Nauseam.

I think being able to keep Thoughtseize and cut Ponder for 2 Empty the Warrens is better than having to cut Duress for 2 Empty the Warrens and keep Ponder vs D&T, because this strategy makes better use of our Swamp.

I agree Thoughtseize is something of a liability vs aggro-control, but with 3 Chrome Mox and Empy the Warrens I feel the life is negligible

Badlands doesn't allow us to "Fetchland, go" and optimize our cantrips on T2 because it doesn't produce blue mana, where Volcanic Island does and I don't find myself needing to cast discard, pass and then tap the same land for red mana. This begins to become a problem when you have Swamp, Bayou and Badlands in your deck, and I often question whether or not Swamp over the 3rd Underground Sea is even correct because it's less consistent and requires us to use Bloodstained Mire instead of Misty Rainforest and concede an informational advantage to our opponent. And yes, I realize my thoughts regarding Thoughtseize and the land configuration contradict each other. Playing Thoughtseize helps me rationalize playing Swamp where playing Duress helps me rationalize Misty Rainforest and the 3rd Underground Sea because Thoughtseize + Swamp is trying to quickly prevent permanent based hate while not exposing itself to Wasteland, and Duress + Underground Sea is trying to patiently hole on to its discard and optimize cantrips. So playing Duress and Swamp to me appears illogical vs anything other than BUG.

These are relatively minor quibbles.

[Lemnear]

This discussion and arguments are completely messed up.

If I drop a comment about how to tackle D&T you point to Meddling mage and Clique; If I talk about by postboard game you point at preboard use of discard against Hatebears; You talk the "fetchland, go" approach based on a manabase I don't even run; You praise swamp+thoughtseize for Game 1s against D&T and dodge the question of how you know that you play against D&T in the first place and ignore cases of "double hatebear" completely

[Final Fortune]

This discussion and arguments are completely messed up.

If I drop a comment about how to tackle D&T you point to Meddling mage and Clique; If I talk about by postboard game you point at preboard use of discard against Hatebears; You talk the "fetchland, go" approach based on a manabase I don't even run; You praise swamp+thoughtseize for Game 1s against D&T and dodge the question of how you know that you play against D&T in the first place and ignore cases of "double hatebear" completely

I don't see what is messed up about it, deciding whether or not to use Thoughtseize is a consideration based on the whole metagame. I could just as easily argue the asininities of the opponent having two hatebears as a reason for not running Thoughtseize at all when Duress would be even worse. As far as how I know I'm playing against D&T in order to know whether or not I should fetch Swamp, I would think either seeing a Plains or casting a Gitaxian Probe should make it rather obvious ... or having already played game 1 vs them and thinking about the impact of your card choices in 3 games of Magic ... do I really need to explain this?

Let me recap, Thoughtseize is better vs control because it removes Vendilion Clique and Meddling Mage, it is better vs prison because it can remove hatebears, it is probably worse but still playable vs aggro-control, it lets us better leverage Swamp in prison match ups, "Fetch, go" is about maximizing the number of blue producing Lands in order to optimize cantrips on T2 I.e. why I dislike Badlands and question Swamp and Bloodstained Mire over a 3rd Underground Sea and Misty Rainforest.

[Lemnear]

I don't see what is messed up about it, deciding whether or not to use Thoughtseize is a consideration based on the whole metagame. I could just as easily argue the asininities of the opponent having two hatebears as a reason for not running Thoughtseize at all when Duress would be even worse.

If you want to adress "the whole metagame", you need to look at the resurge of Tempo decks too, a supertype we both know that lifeloss can be backbreaking against. Whats the bigger percentage of the metagame, burn/tempo/similar or hatebear.dec? Is the penetration of hatebears high enough to make an argument FOR Thoughtseize, but not high enough to let Thoughtseize.matchplan suffer from opposing hatebear redundancy?


As far as how I know I'm playing against D&T in order to know whether or not I should fetch Swamp, I would think either seeing a Plains or casting a Gitaxian Probe should make it rather obvious ... or having already played game 1 vs them and thinking about the impact of your card choices in 3 games of Magic ... do I really need to explain this?

You need to explain your mulligan decisions and opening play with your proposed swamp+TS against generic opponents game 1 as you seem to miraculously know your opponents deck being a hatebear.dec and argue based on that. I don't care for anti-Duress aguments for postboard games as they would be removed anyways and I rather see an EtW in my starting grip vs. Hatebears than a Thoughtseize.


Let me recap, Thoughtseize is better vs control because it removes Vendilion Clique and Meddling Mage, it is better vs prison because it can remove hatebears, it is probably worse but still playable vs aggro-control, it lets us better leverage Swamp in prison match ups, "Fetch, go" is about maximizing the number of blue producing Lands in order to optimize cantrips on T2 I.e. why I dislike Badlands and question Swamp and Bloodstained Mire over a 3rd Underground Sea and Misty Rainforest.

I don't have the slightest clue how you're able to put "Fetch, go" in the same sentence as "Hatebears" and/or "Prison". I also fail to see how discarding the Clique/Meddling Mage (which are sideboard cards in most cases) is better than dropping 12+ Goblins (via the increased number of EtW you can draw) before opposing creatures even matter.

You opt to T1 discard and gamble your opponent get nothing else going from there, while I want to drop Goblins asap and gamble on my opponent not finding a solution.

[Bryant Cook]

My SCG: NJ was short lived.

R1, I'm playing against Tezzerator. I've played a Duress and two Cabal Therapy to shred his hand hitting a Chalice of the Void and a Transmute Artifact. He draws revoker and names LED (I have one on the table), meanwhile he's been up ticking his Hangarback Walker. I'm at fourteen and have been setting up a Past in Flames kill, I have three Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor and Past in Flames in hand. My opponent has a Tezzeret and one unknown. I play Dark Ritual (two untapped lands), Infernal Tutor (Dark Ritual), Dark Ritual, Past in Flames? He casts Force of Will. I'm trying to figure out if I should play the remaining two Dark Rituals into Ad Nauseam. I'm thinking, even if it isn't a kill I can stop above six, use the new resources and flashback Past in Flames next turn? Or... I can play it safe and just PIF kill next turn, but would lose to a top deck Chalice of the Void/Transmute Artifact. I decide to Ad Nauseam, my first flip is Empty the Warrens, Gitaxian Probe, Rite of Flame and Burning Wish. Uh... Pass. I go to one. Untap, draw brainstorm into a Lotus Petal, Fetchland and Undergound Sea. I end up making 12 Goblins. He attacks with Hangarback, I block, I swing leaving three back (Tomb Damage changes the clock), he draws Baleful strix. My crack back won't kill him (even if I only left two back). I lose to strix.

Game two, he starts off the game with a Leyline of the Void. Thats fine, hes stuck on mana. I cast multiple Burning Wish and a Chain of Vapor to bleed his hand of his 3 Force of Wills. Eventually, I empty the Warrens for 14 (by then he's drawn some mana). He plats Master of Etherium as a blocker. I attack, he draws (I know all but one card), thinks and plays Transmute artifact for Helm of Obiedience...

Two games two top decks.

Against BUG Delver, I manage to Empty the Warrens for 14 against his lone Deathrite Shaman after he taps out for Painful Truths. I flashback two Cabal Therapy hitting Brainstorm and Bile Blight (only a Tarmogoyf left in his hand). Untaps, draws... Golgari Charm. 0-2

In my third round, I had given up and wasn't trying. I essentially gave it to him so that I could play in side events. A rough weekend for Legacy.

[Blastoderm]

@Bryant

This is Magic. A game of skill but also a game of chance. We've all been there :(

[Izor]

That's unfortunate, I was hoping to see some of your matches when the commentators mentioned you were playing. Bad luck happens sometimes I guess.

It seems like EtW not getting there lead to all of your losses. In my latest testing with TES I had similar problems, it seems to me that too many decks have ways to beat 10-12 tokens nowadays. Miracles tend to leave in their Terminus and/or board Staticaster when they see Rite of Flame and Burning Wish in my local meta. Grixis Delver can often beat a bunch of Goblins with Pyromancer and DRS being good at soaking up 1/1s. Elves is hard to trump with 1/1s too. Lands has Tabernacle and lots of tutors to find it. Storm and other combo can kill you the turn before your Goblins are lethal. Might just be a coincidence, though, but still I went back to ANT a while ago because of it, and my results have been better.

[Bryant Cook]

That's unfortunate, I was hoping to see some of your matches when the commentators mentioned you were playing. Bad luck happens sometimes I guess.

It seems like EtW not getting there lead to all of your losses. In my latest testing with TES I had similar problems, it seems to me that too many decks have ways to beat 10-12 tokens nowadays. Miracles tend to leave in their Terminus and/or board Staticaster when they see Rite of Flame and Burning Wish in my local meta. Grixis Delver can often beat a bunch of Goblins with Pyromancer and DRS being good at soaking up 1/1s. Elves is hard to trump with 1/1s too. Lands has Tabernacle and lots of tutors to find it. Storm and other combo can kill you the turn before your Goblins are lethal. Might just be a coincidence, though, but still I went back to ANT a while ago because of it, and my results have been better.

I've toyed with the idea of playing the current list with -3 Chrome Mox +1 Past in Flames +2 Cabal Ritual. I haven't tested it, it would make Ad Nauseam much less reliable while having a stronger late game and still having some quick bursts with a MD ETW.

[Izor]

That's an interesting idea. Although I've always run some sort of hybridized lists (love BWish too much to go full-ANT), I haven't tried PiF main without actual Tendrils in the main deck. I feel like it may really hurt that you almost always need 2 extra mana if you have to BWish for Tendrils at the end of your PiF loop.

EtW is currently only a (wish)sideboard option for me and I only go for it if I get the natural BWish+4 mana floating, or if I cast Infernal with 6 floating in situations where I'm 100% sure EtW will win where AN and PiF may fail, which admittedly is rare.

[Bryant Cook]

That's an interesting idea. Although I've always run some sort of hybridized lists (love BWish too much to go full-ANT), I haven't tried PiF main without actual Tendrils in the main deck. I feel like it may really hurt that you almost always need 2 extra mana if you have to BWish for Tendrils at the end of your PiF loop.

EtW is currently only a (wish)sideboard option for me and I only go for it if I get the natural BWish+4 mana floating, or if I cast Infernal with 6 floating in situations where I'm 100% sure EtW will win where AN and PiF may fail, which admittedly is rare.

I'm likely to stick with my current list as it's been doing me very well (3 events were big successes - SCG:NJ was the 4th event with 3 Mox which was a fail). I'm going to chalk up the bad experience to unfortunate luck.

[Svyelunite]

I'm likely to stick with my current list as it's been doing me very well (3 events were big successes - SCG:NJ was the 4th event with 3 Mox which was a fail). I'm going to chalk up the bad experience to unfortunate luck.

Stick with what works. You know what you're doing. I've run very similar Infect lists at 6 major events this year (Indy, Worcester, DC, St. Louis, SeaTac, and NJ) and did very well at all but 2. I think experience and familiarity was way more important than deck mods. Fate is indeed a cruel mistress who eventually gets us.

See you in Philly ;)

[Pelikanudo]

Hi all Stormers!

I've been tunning my TES deck for the MKM Series in Madrid - the trials are next Friday 18 at 13:00, this would definately be the tournament which will dictate if I bring this deck or TNT. I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this in here but if anybody is going to the MKM in Madrid and will go to the Big Trial on Friday, please let me know to change impressions or maybe make some testing or whatever (no sex yes drugs)...

Let's rock the MKM with Storm!

Apart, Bahamut, Lemnear, F.Fortune and Asthereal mainly, just out of curiosity how are you siding vs merfolks lately - the full chalice version?
I'm doing like:
+2 Xantid,+1 Bayou, +3 A.D. (I have 4 A.D. but seems to me a too much dedicated slot to uniquely chalices... maybe 4th should come in?)+1 Duress (4th from side) = -2 Cabal therapy, -4 ponder, -1 EtW.
but sometimes I leave the EtW... as in here I also want speed... and C.T. gave me some games as hits cursecatcher....
and also depends if I am on the play or on the draw...., for example on the play I usually leave EtW and dont side in A.D. leaving full therapies

Please could you let me know you side of the draw and on the play vs this?

and vs Grixis? I uniquely do:
-2 ponder, +1 Bayou (total 13 lands) +1Green Silence
However I feel like I miss more ponder than C.M. thats why I'm thinking in siding instead of 2nd ponder 1 C.M, (I play 3 C.M.)....

[ManCharm]

Ahh, the good old 'I want 4 of this card but I don't board in 4 because that is too many' thought process.

[Bryant Cook]

My pimped out decks: http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-2015-pimp-deck-update/

[Pelikanudo]

Hi all I'll expose my experience with TES along the MKM Series Madrid and trying to reach some conslusions.

The Trial:
I finally opted to try to get a bye on friday main legacy trials and got it, but it was in deed at a great cost as the organization wasn't the best and we were fighting for example the 3rd round at 18:00... even we were near 40 people we even had to play the top8 going back at home at 2:00 and having to get up at 8:00...

This trial was going to be in deed the tournament which will dictate if I was going to the main legacy with TES or TNT... TES was the chosen one.

In the Trial I faced 2 Grixis, 1miracles, D&T, 1 Belcher and Lands which I won all except Belcher...

I have to say that after the trials I was very confidant with that TES deck winning that miracles and that Tempo in a good manner. I remember the game vs tempo and EtW is still the all star, C.M. also helped in one game that was exacly: I play fetch and pretend I'm thinking, then proceed to C.M., L.P, RoF, LED, B.W. into EtW, Great.

The Main event was more of the same. I was able to get a 5-2 but at this point I was dissapointing for loosing vs Miracles and the 8th round I just kept hands which I should, maybe had mulliganed... Would you keep OTD LED, LED 2 Gitaxian, Ponder, I.T., B.W.? I kept that hand and loose and the next I kept a hand of G.P. LED, D.R., D.R., I.T. ponder B.S. I just didn't find any land in these 2 matches, but again I believe I should have mulliganed... I just wanted to go home. maybe I shouldn't have gone to the trials....

The main Event:

In the main event I faced 2 Grixis, 1 Kind of Jund with Collected Company, 1 Miracles, 2 ANT 1 Miracles and 1 Canadian 3Hold.
The deck felt pretty solid against Grixis in general, but again the loose game against miracles was so dissapointing...:

The first game I just discarded a ponder and nex I cast A.NAuseam and win.
The 2nd he just plays c.b and uses senseis to death and wins as im not able to find any A.Decay
The 3rd game he is able to stablish with senseis and even I am able to cast I.T. to 2nd A.D. he along the game drew all the 4 Counterbalance.

Paco Belloch I won't forget you! - nice guy.

So I am a litle (really very) sad about my loose vs miracles as it was going to be a deck with a lot of pressence in the MKM, however as said in total I won 3 Grixis and lost to 1 3hold for not good mulligans.
One thing I can say about the miracles archetype match up in general , I am not going to say was bad luck that the opp. drew the full 4 c.b., but in my experience the wins go through beeing as fast as possible vs this archetype - maybe I have 80% of winnings in the 1st games, decay just answers his balance, right, but we don't have senseis and this card in the mid-long game just wrecks us- all you know, I will opt from now on another approach vs this archetype and means 0 decays, +2nd A.N. +4th Duress from side = -1EtW,-1Ponder, what do you guys think?

Forgot: The other loose vs ANT was mainly dictated because of Therapy. the card is insane. he was able to cast discard and slow me enough to win in the mid game

I am kind of dissapointing for not getting a top8, which was likely the tournament I had most expectations on... and absolutly I hate Miracles..., likely I start to play again this deck...

the list for reference:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
1 EtW
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Polluted delta
2 misty rainforest

sideboard
1 bayou
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Autum's Veil
1 Void Snare
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Duress
1 Massacre
2 Xantid S.
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 D.Petition

Congratulations to Togores for his top8 with ANT.

Aftermaths:

I still have pending my particular top8 with TES in any great turnament..., I still am not going to change my base, but I'm thinking in how to handle miracles, now I can say I will discard A.D. in a deck which has 80% wins through this deck in 1st games, all I can do is just getting better this approach and I believe, as noted before, that adding the 2nd A.N instead of the EtW and adding the 8th discard will contribute to this purpose.

A.D. was key somehow vs a lands deck in the trials, but also CoV had done the same job: I needed to handle 1 thalia, 1 chalice at 0 and 1 in hand in the 2nd game and was good. but for the rest of things, I really dont know how much this card will be so critical...

Opnions?

[Lemnear]

1) you wonder about bad mulligans/hands of you just run 12 lands?

2) you want to dismiss Decay and instant lose to Counterbalance/MeddlingMage?

3) Decay handles Chalice @ 1 which is the key in the matchups involving the card. Decay also potentially digs you out of matchups where your opponent is able to drop a second hate-permanent while CoV is not. Decay handles Thalia + Vial @ 2 unlike CoV; etc

[Pelikanudo]

1) you wonder about bad mulligans/hands of you just run 12 lands?


the game I lost was vs RUG, and I recognized that maybe I should have made mulligan, I made 0 mulligans in all the tournament.
maybe I should have to say that in that match up I also didn't draw Lotus petal and neither C.M. which were valid options.
I won the others Tempo match ups - 4 Grixis Delver. Sure they all played therapies, stifle and likes. the good thing is that are quite predictable...

I am not worried about Tempo. I have never been worried about tempo.



2) you want to dismiss Decay and instant lose to Counterbalance/MeddlingMage?


Absolutly not, these are at least my percentages of winning vs Miracles:
- 1st game: 80%
- 2nd and 3rd games: Less than 30%.

I've been toying with ideas around full decays plus 1 krosan or adding also Xantids, pyros, nedles , and the last thing 1 Autums veil, I am appy with this card which I sided in vs tempo..
however when you side in so many cards vs this archetype you side out C.M. and you are inherently making the deck less faster. Maybe with ANT decks, you could side in a couple of Senseis and full decays and do things like PiF to destroy balance, because you can enter in his MidToLate game. but this deck is TES, It tooks me this tournament to notice this as this is the 6th time I face miracles winning uniquely 2 of these match ups, and among them winning almost all the 1st games. you won't win the game if you are slow and let the opp. to senseis to death drawing 3 balance and mages or even Misdirection for your decays as radical example. you will win games by beeing able to discard a balance or fow or mage and next win. at least this is my experience. you do absolulty nothing vs senseis and they now play ponder even... which means post board they have 12 cantrips vs 4 from us to find their AnswerToUs - (we even side out ponder...).

Thats why I am planning to side in uniquely 2nd Ad Nauseam and 4th duress. however, maybe as you say, I should need to play more T.Seize instead. as this also targets M.M..., really don't know., but the idea for me is clear.
OR
as my other ANT players just play Plain ANT - I will need to play TNT as I like so much B.W. with Senseis or likes to be able to somehow have any chance in the midToLate Game vs Miracles.
OR
go back to my begginings and play Miracles.

Please give me your plan vs Miracles apart from siding EtW, which definately is not valid, they leave terminus, pyroclasm, or EE... I remember the hand when I play gitaxian OTD the 2nd game: it was B.S., balance, terminus and lands....
Maybe the plan of DecaysOfHope is ok (in my experience it is just as equal as loosing....) vs games on the draw, but OTP, well I will happy to see Ad Nauseam and C.M. and duress which makes me able to win just after I discard his FoW/Fluster. no more than 3rd turn should take the win.



3) Decay handles Chalice @ 1 which is the key in the matchups involving the card. Decay also potentially digs you out of matchups where your opponent is able to drop a second hate-permanent while CoV is not. Decay handles Thalia + Vial @ 2 unlike CoV; etc

Agree, by the moment I just took out 4th decay by 1 Ad Nauseam, and maybe I move the duress to T.Seize and move from 1 Duress main to 1Seize.

[paeng4983]

My short TR from our year end tourney.

happy holidays guys!

http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-epic-storm-at-kes-year-end.html

[Lemnear]

I won the others Tempo match ups - 4 Grixis Delver. Sure they all played therapies, stifle and likes. the good thing is that are quite predictable...

I am not worried about Tempo. I have never been worried about tempo.

Grixis is no deck after the ban of DTT imo. Its a worse version of BUG delver with various configuration of discard or additional counters (aka stifle, fluster, etc.). Most play Therapy in Sideboard at best. Compared with other tempo decks they don't pressure your life fast either.


Absolutly not, these are at least my percentages of winning vs Miracles:
- 1st game: 80%
- 2nd and 3rd games: Less than 30%.

I've been toying with ideas around full decays plus 1 krosan or adding also Xantids, pyros, nedles , and the last thing 1 Autums veil, I am appy with this card which I sided in vs tempo..
however when you side in so many cards vs this archetype you side out C.M. and you are inherently making the deck less faster. Maybe with ANT decks, you could side in a couple of Senseis and full decays and do things like PiF to destroy balance, because you can enter in his MidToLate game. but this deck is TES, It tooks me this tournament to notice this as this is the 6th time I face miracles winning uniquely 2 of these match ups, and among them winning almost all the 1st games. you won't win the game if you are slow and let the opp. to senseis to death drawing 3 balance and mages or even Misdirection for your decays as radical example. you will win games by beeing able to discard a balance or fow or mage and next win. at least this is my experience. you do absolulty nothing vs senseis and they now play ponder even... which means post board they have 12 cantrips vs 4 from us to find their AnswerToUs - (we even side out ponder...).

What you lack to realize about your G1 is that unknown opponents might not keep a hand which is excellent against combo, but against creatures and ergo that way they might lack tools to defend against fast combo. In other words: You steal game 1. Games 2 & 3 are the ones where you fight against Miracles in its anti-combo mode aka when it matters.

I really don't care for arguments resulting from completely overboarding in this matchup with mediocre cards like Xantids or Pyros while reducing business. ANT isn't siding SDTs either, so don't create a strawman especially as the idea to gain more value from SDT than Miracles is ridiculous and proven wrong in the ANT thread. You side out Moxen to decrease the bad draws for longer matches aka improving the midgame. You can also board PIF to flashback Decays for example.


Thats why I am planning to side in uniquely 2nd Ad Nauseam and 4th duress. however, maybe as you say, I should need to play more T.Seize instead. as this also targets M.M..., really don't know., but the idea for me is clear.
OR
as my other ANT players just play Plain ANT - I will need to play TNT as I like so much B.W. with Senseis or likes to be able to somehow have any chance in the midToLate Game vs Miracles.
OR
go back to my begginings and play Miracles.

You want to play Thoughtseize AND 5cmc cards to reveal to Ad Nauseam? I also don't get why you think ANT is better suited for the matchup than TES. The GP in Seattle showed that Miracles can be fought with Multi-EtW from ANTs sideboards and you still claim otherwise while the data is there. The key to win the Miracles matchup is forcing them into being active instead of just sitting behind counterbalance and piling up counters. This accounts for TES and ANT which have the same tools to fight back postboard.


Please give me your plan vs Miracles apart from siding EtW, which definately is not valid, they leave terminus, pyroclasm, or EE... I remember the hand when I play gitaxian OTD the 2nd game: it was B.S., balance, terminus and lands....
Maybe the plan of DecaysOfHope is ok (in my experience it is just as equal as loosing....) vs games on the draw, but OTP, well I will happy to see Ad Nauseam and C.M. and duress which makes me able to win just after I discard his FoW/Fluster. no more than 3rd turn should take the win.

I've gone through the topic several times. Go look at GP Seattle data to see how the Multi-EtW works instead of claiming that it does not. You deny proven facts with the age-old and invalid argument of "but there can be removal". Its also annoying to discuss based on "oh I have the natural turn 1 discard and turn 2 win EVERY FUCKING TIME and my opponent a maximum of 1 piece of defense". Your whole plan (which you talked about in your last post) is diwn the drain ince your opponent has TWO pieces of interaction. Seriously, it wouldn't be the first time, I notice miracles players keeping a hand with FoW, opening with Ponder to float Counterbalance for their turn 2.


Agree, by the moment I just took out 4th decay by 1 Ad Nauseam, and maybe I move the duress to T.Seize and move from 1 Duress main to 1Seize.

I stress 4 Decays for months now was its the inly card which can save you from Counterbalance and Chalice @ 1. You don't even have a chance to play with either card on the table and given the spread of these two cards in europe, going anywhere without 4 is nuts

[Asthereal]

Apart, Bahamut, Lemnear, F.Fortune and Asthereal mainly, just out of curiosity how are you siding vs merfolks lately - the full chalice version?
I'm doing like:
+2 Xantid,+1 Bayou, +3 A.D. (I have 4 A.D. but seems to me a too much dedicated slot to uniquely chalices... maybe 4th should come in?)+1 Duress (4th from side) = -2 Cabal therapy, -4 ponder, -1 EtW.
but sometimes I leave the EtW... as in here I also want speed... and C.T. gave me some games as hits cursecatcher....
and also depends if I am on the play or on the draw...., for example on the play I usually leave EtW and dont side in A.D. leaving full therapies

Please could you let me know you side of the draw and on the play vs this?

and vs Grixis? I uniquely do:
-2 ponder, +1 Bayou (total 13 lands) +1Green Silence
However I feel like I miss more ponder than C.M. thats why I'm thinking in siding instead of 2nd ponder 1 C.M, (I play 3 C.M.)....
Against Merfolk with Chalice I haven't played yet. I'd probably add all Decays and Xantids, drop 2 Ponder and go down to 1 Mox. Other cards to side out would be a number of Cabal Therapies. Keep the main deck Empty the Warrens. If I were to run 3x Empty on side, I'd be tempted to play Discard-Goblin aggro on the play, but I never run that tech.

Against Grixis (which still is a deck, according to our current DtB section), I'd add my 8th discard spell for a Mox (if I run 3x Mox main) or for a Ponder (if I run 2x Mox - I want to keep 2x Mox against Tempo). I don't run Silence effects in my current lists.

(Note: I have my Bayou in the main - 13 lands total.)

[Pelikanudo]

Grixis is no deck after the ban of DTT imo. Its a worse version of BUG delver with various configuration of discard or additional counters (aka stifle, fluster, etc.). Most play Therapy in Sideboard at best. Compared with other tempo decks they don't pressure your life fast either.


well, after siding and if they include 4 therapies, it is a deck to have in mind, I am not going to say is an easy match up, in deed it is tough... the difference in presure is DRS vs Nimble which is not a huge difference. but ok...




What you lack to realize about your G1 is that unknown opponents might not keep a hand which is excellent against combo, but against creatures and ergo that way they might lack tools to defend against fast combo. In other words: You steal game 1. Games 2 & 3 are the ones where you fight against Miracles in its anti-combo mode aka when it matters.

I really don't care for arguments resulting from completely overboarding in this matchup with mediocre cards like Xantids or Pyros while reducing business. ANT isn't siding SDTs either, so don't create a strawman especially as the idea to gain more value from SDT than Miracles is ridiculous and proven wrong in the ANT thread. You side out Moxen to decrease the bad draws for longer matches aka improving the midgame. You can also board PIF to flashback Decays for example.

Well I realized that...
the point is exactly this. C.M.is bad for midtolate games, but I dont think we want to reach the midtolate game vs the best deck equiped in legacy to fight the midtolate game...



You want to play Thoughtseize AND 5cmc cards to reveal to Ad Nauseam? I also don't get why you think ANT is better suited for the matchup than TES. The GP in Seattle showed that Miracles can be fought with Multi-EtW from ANTs sideboards and you still claim otherwise while the data is there. The key to win the Miracles matchup is forcing them into being active instead of just sitting behind counterbalance and piling up counters. This accounts for TES and ANT which have the same tools to fight back postboard.


Well not exactly, I substitute EtW by 2nd A.N. which is adding +1 mana cost to the 60 cards in the deck, statistically is not that bad... uniquely a 5 cost instead of 4....
I intend to test 2T.Seize main for 2nd and 3rd games vs this archetype...
I believe ANT is worse suited than TES for 1st games just because TES is faster, however ANT is better suited for 2nd games just because the late game of ANT is just better than TES...
I looked at the GP Seatle - and the unique ANT deck I saw in 27th position was this: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18767&iddeck=142349
it plays Monastery mentor! which maybe is like the EtW plan, am I right?
I also had a look at the latest Caleb build which involves full decays and EtW...




I've gone through the topic several times. Go look at GP Seattle data to see how the Multi-EtW works instead of claiming that it does not. You deny proven facts with the age-old and invalid argument of "but there can be removal". Its also annoying to discuss based on "oh I have the natural turn 1 discard and turn 2 win EVERY FUCKING TIME and my opponent a maximum of 1 piece of defense". Your whole plan (which you talked about in your last post) is diwn the drain ince your opponent has TWO pieces of interaction. Seriously, it wouldn't be the first time, I notice miracles players keeping a hand with FoW, opening with Ponder to float Counterbalance for their turn 2.

I recognize I still haven't tested EtW plan vs miracles.... that was my perception... I feel that if opp. keeps their terminus and plays 12 cantrips, it is difficult to win through EtW tokens....
I feel that discard and next win is the way to go, yes, I dont expect this to happens all the times, but in the 3rd turn as the latest... well you can discard c.b. if you hit it, and try to combo in 4th turn after a 2nd discard as statistically he would need to find 1 more among 47 cards left having 3 left in the deck...



I stress 4 Decays for months now was its the inly card which can save you from Counterbalance and Chalice @ 1. You don't even have a chance to play with either card on the table and given the spread of these two cards in europe, going anywhere without 4 is nuts

I was playing 4 decays since I wanted to battle miracles too... but I just feel decay sometimes fail me because just I dont draw it or because if I draw it the opp. already developed his plan and it is just useless... I believe that adding more speed to the deck and still not lacking of proactive answers is the way to go in TES vs Miracles. BUT this is something I need to test, by the moment 4 decays didn't win any game vs miracles for me and this is the fact.

As said, I will test EtW plan at some point, but I am not convinced yet by the arguments I exposed before...

@Asthereal, thanks. I felt great vs Grixis the torunament... I took out 2 ponder by bayou and autums veil... I also prefer to leave EtW vs merfolks... what do you do vs Miracles?

[Bryant Cook]

Hybrid article list is up: http://www.theepicstorm.com/a-storm-hybrid/

[Dr_D]

Hybrid article list is up: http://www.theepicstorm.com/a-storm-hybrid/

I've tried TES with maindeck PiF and really really liked it over the maindeck Empty. I was playing with 3 chrome mox, and didn't realize the natural inclusion of 2 cabal rits over 2 moxen, but it still was really strong. With the maindeck PiF configuration in the article, you'll often find that you can infernal into PiF with plenty of mana to loop into BW -> Tendrils and it feels like the loss of a 6 mana "kill" in IT -> Empty is made up for by the late game power and guaranteed kills that PiF provides. I think the maindeck PiF configuration Bryant created is extremely powerful and I'd urge others to try it.

Note that I'm likely biased towards the new list as I've tended to play slower storm decks the past few years (Mostly DDFT and more recently, ANT).

[Lemnear]

I've tried TES with maindeck PiF and really really liked it over the maindeck Empty. I was playing with 3 chrome mox, and didn't realize the natural inclusion of 2 cabal rits over 2 moxen, but it still was really strong. With the maindeck PiF configuration in the article, you'll often find that you can infernal into PiF with plenty of mana to loop into BW -> Tendrils and it feels like the loss of a 6 mana "kill" in IT -> Empty is made up for by the late game power and guaranteed kills that PiF provides. I think the maindeck PiF configuration Bryant created is extremely powerful and I'd urge others to try it.

Note that I'm likely biased towards the new list as I've tended to play slower storm decks the past few years (Mostly DDFT and more recently, ANT).

Switching the MB EtW for the SB PIF is a pretty common move for me when I play against board control or combo. I don't know if we need this as a preboard setting or why this list should be any improvement over traditional ANT which simulates a similar threat density with additional cantrips, but a more stable manabase.

[Asthereal]

I intend to test 2T.Seize main for 2nd and 3rd games vs this archetype...
This remark puzzles me. You intend to play something main deck in order to improve games 2 and 3? Maybe this makes sense for a certain point of view, but if you don't fully explain that point of view, it just looks like a contradiction in terminis.


@Asthereal, thanks. I felt great vs Grixis the torunament... I took out 2 ponder by bayou and autums veil... I also prefer to leave EtW vs merfolks... what do you do vs Miracles?
Against Miracles I go -3 Therapy, -2 Probe, -2 Chrome Mox / +3 Decay, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Xantid Swarm, keeping my main deck 4x Duress and 1x Empty the Warrens. I have only 3x Decay in the board usually. If I had 4x Decay in the board I'd probably cut a 3rd Probe for it.

Yes, this is highly unorthodox, but you asked what I do. :laugh: I am one of the very few people here who has a seriously troubled relationship with the card Gitaxian Probe. If I have a good reason to cut a few, I always do. They mess up my mulligan decisions big time. I am not the best combo player out there, and deciding whether or not to take a mulligan is the hardest part of playing TES, so I like to help myself a bit by lowering the chances of drawing 2+ Probe openers.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't know if we need this as a preboard setting or why this list should be any improvement over traditional ANT which simulates a similar threat density with additional cantrips, but a more stable manabase.

If you feel that way, simply don't test it. You can keep playing Crystal Vein and Rain of Filth or whatever else you're advocating.

[Dr_D]

Switching the MB EtW for the SB PIF is a pretty common move for me when I play against board control or combo. I don't know if we need this as a preboard setting or why this list should be any improvement over traditional ANT which simulates a similar threat density with additional cantrips, but a more stable manabase.

You're obviously more experienced with the deck than I am, but I don't think having this configuration makes you a worse version of ANT. You still have all the game 1 options burning wish allows including a fast EtW. One of the reasons I tend to shy away from TES is the uncertainty that EtW will result in a kill. It's usually good enough, but a lot of times it's still technically a gamble, and I like that the PiF gives you infernal tutor loops into guaranteed tendrils.

[Lemnear]

If you feel that way, simply don't test it. You can keep playing Crystal Vein and Rain of Filth or whatever else you're advocating.

Is that significantly different from your last list with Cabal Rituals where the game idea was IT -> BW -> PIF -> IT -> BW -> ToA? Didn't you roast me in this threat for running w/o a 6-mana playline off IT or MB EtW, pointing me on how important the fast belcher mode is? According to MTG Top 8 data Jund, Lands, Junk, Burn, Storm as well as several Delver Variants raise in popularity after the DTT ban, so I wonder why you suddenly take this direction during a time the number of Wastelands/Stifle in the metagame is climbing


You're obviously more experienced with the deck than I am, but I don't think having this configuration makes you a worse version of ANT. You still have all the game 1 options burning wish allows including a fast EtW. One of the reasons I tend to shy away from TES is the uncertainty that EtW will result in a kill. It's usually good enough, but a lot of times it's still technically a gamble, and I like that the PiF gives you infernal tutor loops into guaranteed tendrils.

Ha! I got roasted for arguing with BW->EtW, when I cut MB EtW and the way to win for only 6 mana via IT, so this is kinda funny to read again from someone else. Hinting at "fast EtWs" as a goal WHILE CHOPPING MOXEN is ticky ;p

The issues with PIF in TES is that you need not only more mana for a loop, but also red one (thanks to burning wish required to grab ToA) and probably even black & red mana available/float while casting PIF unlike ANT which can ramp up from a single black mana into ToA. It is/was a plan C or D for TES due to color-/cost issues for more than two years now, but its likely not good enough to be promoted to plan B in this deck. Its imo worse than ANT as the color requirements with Wish/RoF stay higher than in TES' storm twin and Wish interacts poorly with PIF as Mox with Cabal Rituals does

[Bryant Cook]

Is that significantly different from your last list with Cabal Rituals where the game idea was IT -> BW -> PIF -> IT -> BW -> ToA? Didn't you roast me in this threat for running w/o a 6-mana playline off IT or MB EtW, pointing me on how important the fast belcher mode is? According to MTG Top 8 data Jund, Lands, Junk, Burn, Storm as well as several Delver Variants raise in popularity after the DTT ban, so I wonder why you suddenly take this direction during a time the number of Wastelands/Stifle in the metagame is climbing

Discard and blue decks are both on the rise where Chrome Mox loses traction and Past in Flames gains it, as I mentioned in my article that it's a metagame call. The difference between the last time that I ran Cabal Ritual main deck and now is that it's not focused around a Dark Petition play line but a Past in Flames main deck line. Mana isn't a real issue with ten ritual effects in the list.


Ha! I got roasted for arguing with BW->EtW, when I cut MB EtW and the way to win for only 6 mana via IT, so this is kinda funny to read again from someone else. Hinting at "fast EtWs" as a goal WHILE CHOPPING MOXEN is ticky ;p

The issues with PIF in TES is that you need not only more mana for a loop, but also red one (thanks to burning wish required to grab ToA) and probably even black & red mana available/float while casting PIF unlike ANT which can ramp up from a single black mana into ToA. It is/was a plan C or D for TES due to color-/cost issues for more than two years now, but its likely not good enough to be promoted to plan B in this deck. Its imo worse than ANT as the color requirements with Wish/RoF stay higher than in TES' storm twin and Wish interacts poorly with PIF as Mox with Cabal Rituals does

I only cut Empty the Warrens to make room for the Past in Flames package, you could easily still run both. A quick ETW line is still very possible through Burning Wish, it's just not accessible as easily with Infernal Tutor which is an acceptable loss for a stronger late game. If you take a look at the decks you listed above (now bolded), how good is Empty the Warrens against that Gauntlet?

I welcome you to try to make advancements.

[Lemnear]

Will when I'm back in Berlin. Three weeks away for holidays starting tomorrow. Merry Christmas to you all!

[LDX]

For what it's worth, have you tried Grapeshot with Past in Flames maindeck? Seems like it would be a safer win condition than, for instance, a late Empty the Warrens, if you can't Tendrils of XYZ reason. Not that I would remove an Empty, just thinking it would serve as a nice, free, alternate win condition.

What I don't know (please, don't mind my ignorance) is how Massacre and Grapeshot should be played differently. At first glance that's what I would remove in that list, or at least, test.

[Final Fortune]

Interesting to see my transformational Storm idea bleeding over, that list looks really close to the 75 I was playing sans the 2 Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox for 2 Lands and a Duress, which is really amusing because Ive been playing Bryant's list instead of that for the past month (2 Thoughtseize and Volcanic Island instead of 2 Duress and Badlands). I think the hybrid list might be more succesful as a transformational list with the Past in Flames and Cabal Rituals in the SB so they arent prompted to SB in grave hate? If you are kicking the Xantid Swarms then you should have the space to fit everything you want, the 2nd Tendril pulled a lot of weight for me but i never tried keeping both Pif and AN in the deck at the same time.

The 4 Warrens plan isnt so hot with Stifle back in vogue, I still like TSeize for being useful vs D&T and cutting back on Chains in the SB. As long as you discard the Thalia the 3 to 4 Decays and Burning Wish can deal with the other bears well enough. The Warrens plan isnt that great vs them because the Mox are a liability vs Chalice on the draw G2 and G3 i dont think you need the help to win and just create a liability to token hate.

[Bryant Cook]

Interesting to see my transformational Storm idea bleeding over, that list looks really close to the 75 I was playing sans the 2 Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox for 2 Lands and a Duress, which is really amusing because Ive been playing Bryant's list instead of that for the past month (2 Thoughtseize and Volcanic Island instead of 2 Duress and Badlands). I think the hybrid list might be more succesful as a transformational list with the Past in Flames and Cabal Rituals in the SB so they arent prompted to SB in grave hate? If you are kicking the Xantid Swarms then you should have the space to fit everything you want, the 2nd Tendril pulled a lot of weight for me but i never tried keeping both Pif and AN in the deck at the same time.

The 4 Warrens plan isnt so hot with Stifle back in vogue, I still like TSeize for being useful vs D&T and cutting back on Chains in the SB. As long as you discard the Thalia the 3 to 4 Decays and Burning Wish can deal with the other bears well enough. The Warrens plan isnt that great vs them because the Mox are a liability vs Chalice on the draw G2 and G3 i dont think you need the help to win and just create a liability to token hate.

The problem I have with playing the Cabal Rituals in the sideboard is that on average you play against more incompetent players than intelligent ones. Most people will side graveyard hate regardless, I think you're better off playing that plan game one and then siding into a different strategy. I prefer two copies of Empty the Warrens as it makes siding into a faster deck much easier.


For what it's worth, have you tried Grapeshot with Past in Flames maindeck? Seems like it would be a safer win condition than, for instance, a late Empty the Warrens, if you can't Tendrils of XYZ reason. Not that I would remove an Empty, just thinking it would serve as a nice, free, alternate win condition.

What I don't know (please, don't mind my ignorance) is how Massacre and Grapeshot should be played differently. At first glance that's what I would remove in that list, or at least, test.

Grapeshot is one of my favorite cards, but I think it's a tough sell at this point in time. It doesn't answer enough things in an easy fashion. Massacre crushes an entire archetype where Grapeshot is occasionally good, I could maybe see it over a Chain of Vapor or the second Empty the Warrens, but that's probably it.

[Pelikanudo]

Interesting to see my transformational Storm idea bleeding over, that list looks really close to the 75 I was playing sans the 2 Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox for 2 Lands and a Duress, which is really amusing because Ive been playing Bryant's list instead of that for the past month (2 Thoughtseize and Volcanic Island instead of 2 Duress and Badlands). I think the hybrid list might be more succesful as a transformational list with the Past in Flames and Cabal Rituals in the SB so they arent prompted to SB in grave hate? If you are kicking the Xantid Swarms then you should have the space to fit everything you want, the 2nd Tendril pulled a lot of weight for me but i never tried keeping both Pif and AN in the deck at the same time.

The 4 Warrens plan isnt so hot with Stifle back in vogue, I still like TSeize for being useful vs D&T and cutting back on Chains in the SB. As long as you discard the Thalia the 3 to 4 Decays and Burning Wish can deal with the other bears well enough. The Warrens plan isnt that great vs them because the Mox are a liability vs Chalice on the draw G2 and G3 i dont think you need the help to win and just create a liability to token hate.

The problem I see and will always see is that you need whether EtW or Tendrils Main in order to make PiF engine a powerfull engine, otherwise it is a 8 Costs engine if you do not have the B.W. in hand.

[Burnplayer]

Pelikanudo I was play vs Ad Nauseam with Burning Wish in the round seven (with a game lose). Are you the player?

[Pelikanudo]

Pelikanudo I was play vs Ad Nauseam with Burning Wish in the round seven (with a game lose). Are you the player?

Yes. I think you were the player I maintain the discussion about if it was better to discard Ad Nauseam or Infernal Tutor. maybe not... what were you playing? or you were on Miracles? I remember my round 7, which I won was vs ANT.

[Burnplayer]

I played a regular ANT in round seven, with 1 Dark Petition in main deck.

Yes, we speak about the deck.

[NARO]

I played a regular ANT in round seven, with 1 Dark Petition in main deck.

Yes, we speak about the deck.

It was me. You had a game loss because something to do with foil cards I believe. And you beat me games 2 and 3. Not going to lie, I was pretty upset after that round, since you drew perfectly the 2 cards you needed to combo me on T1(Infernal tutor, lotus petal) and I had the combo for next turn. Congrats tho, anyway you were probably the better player(I am quite noob in Legacy and my friends told me later hat you are a well-known legacy player in Spain).

It was a bit funny since I remember telling my friends that I wanted to play against a ANT deck to beat it, and when it happens I just got complete obliterated. I finished 6-3, for the record.

[Izor]

I think I personally won't play PiF main without an actual Tendrils in the main as well. The real strength of the maindeck PiF loop is that off of RB mana available you can DR into Thresh'd CR into IT for PiF and simply kill your opponent right there. That's a secured Storm count of 8, you aren't dependent on your life total and you don't require any more mana than for an IT into AN route. 4 Cabal Rits make this line more common as well, Rite of Flame doesn't really have the greatest synergy with PiF overall. The fact that this hybrid list plays 10 rituals instead of 8 doesn't really make the PiF route stronger, because you always need two Rite of Flame to generate the same amount of mana post-PiF as with just 1 CR.

I've been running a hybrid list for a long time now, and even though I'm constantly testing new stuff out, I've always come back to pretty much the same list. For reference:

14 Land
1 Mox
4 Petal, LED, IT
8-9 black Rituals
12 cantrips
6-7 discard
3 BWish
1 PiF
1 AN
1 ToA

SB 1 PiF, 1 ToA, 2 EtW (yes, takes up tons of slots, but I can literally transform my deck into whatever Storm variant I like best in a certain matchup, which has helped me a ton).

[Pelikanudo]

I think I personally won't play PiF main without an actual Tendrils in the main as well. The real strength of the maindeck PiF loop is that off of RB mana available you can DR into Thresh'd CR into IT for PiF and simply kill your opponent right there. That's a secured Storm count of 8, you aren't dependent on your life total and you don't require any more mana than for an IT into AN route. 4 Cabal Rits make this line more common as well, Rite of Flame doesn't really have the greatest synergy with PiF overall. The fact that this hybrid list plays 10 rituals instead of 8 doesn't really make the PiF route stronger, because you always need two Rite of Flame to generate the same amount of mana post-PiF as with just 1 CR.

I've been running a hybrid list for a long time now, and even though I'm constantly testing new stuff out, I've always come back to pretty much the same list. For reference:

14 Land
1 Mox
4 Petal, LED, IT
8-9 black Rituals
12 cantrips
6-7 discard
3 BWish
1 PiF
1 AN
1 ToA

SB 1 PiF, 1 ToA, 2 EtW (yes, takes up tons of slots, but I can literally transform my deck into whatever Storm variant I like best in a certain matchup, which has helped me a ton).

This is esentially Timo Shuneman/TNT List, I love this list also...

[Lemnear]

I think I personally won't play PiF main without an actual Tendrils in the main as well. The real strength of the maindeck PiF loop is that off of RB mana available you can DR into Thresh'd CR into IT for PiF and simply kill your opponent right there. That's a secured Storm count of 8, you aren't dependent on your life total and you don't require any more mana than for an IT into AN route. 4 Cabal Rits make this line more common as well, Rite of Flame doesn't really have the greatest synergy with PiF overall. The fact that this hybrid list plays 10 rituals instead of 8 doesn't really make the PiF route stronger, because you always need two Rite of Flame to generate the same amount of mana post-PiF as with just 1 CR.

I've been running a hybrid list for a long time now, and even though I'm constantly testing new stuff out, I've always come back to pretty much the same list. For reference:

14 Land
1 Mox
4 Petal, LED, IT
8-9 black Rituals
12 cantrips
6-7 discard
3 BWish
1 PiF
1 AN
1 ToA

SB 1 PiF, 1 ToA, 2 EtW (yes, takes up tons of slots, but I can literally transform my deck into whatever Storm variant I like best in a certain matchup, which has helped me a ton).

Have you taken at look at the average Ad Nauseam here with the increased number of 4cc & 2cc spells while less IMS than the average TES? The AN flips of this list are on par with the ANT ones while the number of fast mana (- moxen + CR) and fast combo tools (- BW +PIF) decrased so this looks like a ANT list with an additional full color for barely any reason

[Izor]

Have you taken at look at the average Ad Nauseam here with the increased number of 4cc & 2cc spells while less IMS than the average TES? The AN flips of this list are on par with the ANT ones while the number of fast mana (- moxen + CR) and fast combo tools (- BW +PIF) decrased so this looks like a ANT list with an additional full color for barely any reason

I haven't only taken a look at it, I've cast hundreds of ANs with this list and I honestly fail to see how you can compare its AN win rate to that of ANT.

- a 5th ims is a 25% increase in chances to hit one post AN, and that's a pretty big deal tbh. I've seen TES lists that ran only one Mox, so why does it help those decks bust out better ANs, but not mine?
- I play only one extra 4cc spell in comparison to TES, and in contrast to TES I can usually stop if I just hit the Tendrils off of AN while TES has to keep going until they find a way to tutor for Tendrils out of the board.
- In contrast to that, AN plays 1-2 Dark Petitions plus two 4 mana spells main. How does that compare to my list that plays zero DP and two 4 mana spells main?
- finally, just like TES I don't necessarily have to find LED to win post AN because I have BWish. Having BWishes in your deck increases your win rate post AN by a huge amount, I'm assuming you know that?

Yes, my fast combo is decreased in comparison to TES, but you can't just say it's as slow as ANT. There's a lot in between the two, and that's where my deck is situated.

It's easy to see that my list has way stronger ANs than traditional ANT. For reference, I'm currently considering either Caleb Scherer's list with 2 DP or the common 2 Island, 1 DP variation as the stock ANT lists. All of those play 1 ToA, 1 PiF, 1 AN, just like I do, except I have a Mox over the 15th land and BWishes over durdly Preordains/SDT/DP which massively increases my win % post AN.

I'm not saying my list is the best, I'm saying it's the one I've liked most. What Storm variant you choose always just depends on how much raw speed you want and what routes to victory you prioritize over others.

In comparison with ANT, my list has a slightly lower chance to PiF loop because I play one less black Tutor. Other than that, my PiF loops are just as powerful as ANT's. My AN route is much stronger than ANT's. My natural Storm/tutor chain route is exactly the same as in ANT, except I may need one extra red mana for it depending on the situation. Plus I have a ETW route which ANT doesn't have at all. Also, my local meta has main deck Teegs and people who are willing to discard+DRS Tendrils whevener given a chance, so having BWish is mandatory to win through these things.

In comparison to TES, my AN is a little weaker due to less Moxen and only 3 BW. Plus my curve is slightly worse due to MD PiF and CR over Rite. But it's by no means as bad as ANT's. My ETW route is also weaker because I need 8 mana to IT for it instead of 6, and my BW into ETW route can be slower because I have less red rituals. However, my natural Storm/tutor chain route is clearly stronger due to 4 CR. And most importantly, I have a reliable and strong maindeck PiF loop that TES lacks.

Overall, I like my lists' win conditions better than those of ANT and TES. It's just my preference, I'm not claiming that my list is better than anything else. I don't rule every other person's opinion out by default and act like I fail to see the advantages other peoples' lists have. There are people who are better than me at doing that.

[Pelikanudo]

@Izor:

Agree on all except:

with 3 B.W. you have more chances to go PiF Route than with plain ANT if you have D.P. in side because you play 3 B.W. in comparison to 2 D.P. the unique "but" is that is 2 more mana expensive if you cast it in the same combo turn.

[Izor]

That is true, I do of course play a DP in the side and I've never felt like my PiF routes were any weaker than ANT's overall, given that I can also often just BWish for PiF and win with either a Tutor or Tendrils already in my graveyard (or discarded to LED in resp to BW). Generally speaking, if games go long, BWish pretty much just loses all of its disadvantages to black tutors a lot of the time.

[Lemnear]

I haven't only taken a look at it, I've cast hundreds of ANs with this list and I honestly fail to see how you can compare its AN win rate to that of ANT.

- a 5th ims is a 25% increase in chances to hit one post AN, and that's a pretty big deal tbh. I've seen TES lists that ran only one Mox, so why does it help those decks bust out better ANs, but not mine?

Going from 4 IMS in 60 cards to 5 IMS in 60 cards is a 25% improvement? What kind of math is that? I really hate it if things are taken out of the context of the whole deck or facts like that you don't always have 5 IMS left IN the deck are simply ignored. Its also pretty advantageous, if you opt to not lose a word about your IMS in relation to your average CMC which is a lot higher than in traditional TES lists. Look at the GP Seattle coverage to see how several 2/4 cmc spells influence the AN flips


- I play only one extra 4cc spell in comparison to TES, and in contrast to TES I can usually stop if I just hit the Tendrils off of AN while TES has to keep going until they find a way to tutor for Tendrils out of the board.

You also play two moxen less. Its plain annoying to discuss such things like "only 1 more 4cmc spell" out of the context of the whole 60.


- In contrast to that, AN plays 1-2 Dark Petitions plus two 4 mana spells main. How does that compare to my list that plays zero DP and two 4 mana spells main?

Most ANT list which opt to run AN do not run DP as the past has shown how bad these cards in fact interact so the ANT players are split between DP+EtW and Preordain+AN these days. I too grew to hate DP in ANT as its clunky, does not interact with LED and is basically a dead card outside the combo. Lets not craft a strawman with AN + 2 DP + PIF + ToA


- finally, just like TES I don't necessarily have to find LED to win post AN because I have BWish. Having BWishes in your deck increases your win rate post AN by a huge amount, I'm assuming you know that?

I asume you know that your winrate with the BW line mainly despends on your ability to produce 3BBR AFTER Ad Nauseam, despite the increased number of high cmc flips and lowered IMS'. Another case of hinting at single cards without an eye on the whole construct


Yes, my fast combo is decreased in comparison to TES, but you can't just say it's as slow as ANT. There's a lot in between the two, and that's where my deck is situated.

It's easy to see that my list has way stronger ANs than traditional ANT. For reference, I'm currently considering either Caleb Scherer's list with 2 DP or the common 2 Island, 1 DP variation as the stock ANT lists. All of those play 1 ToA, 1 PiF, 1 AN, just like I do, except I have a Mox over the 15th land and BWishes over durdly Preordains/SDT/DP which massively increases my win % post AN.

I don't really care which list you set as your fundament to argue as long as traditional ANT lists do fine T4ing (here (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11158&d=263463&f=LE)or here (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7592&d=243567&f=LE)).

Its comical to call Preordain "durdly" if you opt to run dead MB cards like ToA instead. What Preordain does, but BW or DP cannot to is creating a further density of quality cards instead of running substitutes (BW, DO, GrimT) or additional copies (discard)


i'm not saying my list is the best, I'm saying it's the one I've liked most. What Storm variant you choose always just depends on how much raw speed you want and what routes to victory you prioritize over others.

Its a metagame choice mainly.


In comparison with ANT, my list has a slightly lower chance to PiF loop because I play one less black Tutor. Other than that, my PiF loops are just as powerful as ANT's. My AN route is much stronger than ANT's. My natural Storm/tutor chain route is exactly the same as in ANT, except I may need one extra red mana for it depending on the situation. Plus I have a ETW route which ANT doesn't have at all. Also, my local meta has main deck Teegs and people who are willing to discard+DRS Tendrils whevener given a chance, so having BWish is mandatory to win through these things.

Its ridiculous to claim your PIF loop is as strong as ANTs given the less cardselection tools to setup the loop or Cabal Rituals. Teeg is no argument for PIF+ToA in maindeck but running 3 Moxen and MB EtW.


In comparison to TES, my AN is a little weaker due to less Moxen and only 3 BW. Plus my curve is slightly worse due to MD PiF and CR over Rite. But it's by no means as bad as ANT's. My ETW route is also weaker because I need 8 mana to IT for it instead of 6, and my BW into ETW route can be slower because I have less red rituals. However, my natural Storm/tutor chain route is clearly stronger due to 4 CR. And most importantly, I have a reliable and strong maindeck PiF loop that TES lacks.

You can not bring DRS & Teeg as arguments to the table and act as if the loss in speed is no matter now. You can't doom Preordain for being durdly, if its a valid tool to fix you mana and feed t.hold for Cabal Rituals which seem to be NOW your point.


Overall, I like my lists' win conditions better than those of ANT and TES. It's just my preference, I'm not claiming that my list is better than anything else. I don't rule every other person's opinion out by default and act like I fail to see the advantages other peoples' lists have. There are people who are better than me at doing that.

I'm totally fine with preferances and such, but I have my issues with one or the other reasoning for choices. :)

[Izor]

Going from 4 IMS in 60 cards to 5 IMS in 60 cards is a 25% improvement? What kind of math is that? I really hate it if things are taken out of the context of the whole deck or facts like that you don't always have 5 IMS left IN the deck are simply ignored. Its also pretty advantageous, if you opt to not lose a word about your IMS in relation to your average CMC which is a lot higher than in traditional TES lists. Look at the GP Seattle coverage to see how several 2/4 cmc spells influence the AN flips

Yes, it is at least a 25% improvement of my chances to hit an IMS in every single flip while resolving an Ad Nauseam, and that is all that matters in this context. The number goes up for each IMS that has already been used prior to AN. If one has been used, the increase is 33% per flip. Sometimes you have no choice but to go for AN and in most cases IMS are the most important thing you're looking for. Having a 25% increased chance to flip one per card is helpful.

I love the 5th petal so far, but I dislike playing more than 1 Mox in my list, because naturally drawing two is almost always terrible.


You also play two moxen less. Its plain annoying to discuss such things like "only 1 more 4cmc spell" out of the context of the whole 60.

I said exactly that a little later in my post. My avg cmc is higher, not just that one cc4 card. However, oftentimes you barely care about your avg cmc when resolving an AN, but you do care that once you hit 4 life there are cards that kill you. That's why I highlited the extra cc4 and cc5 cards as being the main disadvantage. Those cards matter the most when it comes to having to stop flipping. It is of note that this is exactly why I hate DP with AN. Even though your avg mana may only increase by 0.0X, which seems like it doesn't matter, having just one copy of DP in your deck means you can't freely continue revealing when you're at 5.


Most ANT list which opt to run AN do not run DP as the past has shown how bad these cards in fact interact so the ANT players are split between DP+EtW and Preordain+AN these days. I too grew to hate DP in ANT as its clunky, does not interact with LED and is basically a dead card outside the combo. Lets not craft a strawman with AN + 2 DP + PIF + ToA

The most recent past has shown that the currently most successful Storm player plays maindeck AN and 2 DPs. And the more traditional 2 Island lists have generally adapted to replacing the previously run Grim with 1 DP. So I disagree with you here. DP has made it into a lot of ANT decks and despite the obvious nonbo, it works. I also haven't seen a single list place at a tournament with main deck DP plus ETW, so idk where you got this from. If you have a source, please share it, because I'm interested.


I asume you know that your winrate with the BW line mainly despends on your ability to produce 3BBR AFTER Ad Nauseam, despite the increased number of high cmc flips and lowered IMS'. Another case of hinting at single cards without an eye on the whole construct

Once again you seem to be drawing the comparisons in a way that always makes my list seem worse than the other. Yes, I've admitted about a thousand times that my list is worse at resolving AN than TES. No need to bring this up over and over again. But my list is significantly better at winning through AN than ANT is. We're talking about 1 Mox, 1 Rain of Filth and 3 BWish vs the 15th land, 2 Preordain and 1 DP. All 5 of those cards in my deck are relevant post AN, and all 5 of those cards in ANT are either irrelevant and/or bad flips. I know you see this as well, so idk why you're trying your best to talk around the fact and deny it.


Its comical to call Preordain "durdly" if you opt to run dead MB cards like ToA instead. What Preordain does, but BW or DP cannot to is creating a further density of quality cards instead of running substitutes (BW, DO, GrimT) or additional copies (discard)

I'll just ignore the fact that you calles ToA a dead maindeck card, because we all know that this is not true. I opt to play MD ToA because I do not want to miss out on the most reliable kill condition a Storm deck can have in Legacy, which is a nice and clean PiF loop that doesn't require more than one red mana total and as little as RB3 floating when tutoring for PiF. ToA is not durdly, in case you were implying that, because it actually lets me kill with PiF way earlier and faster than if I was running something like Bryant's current hybrid list.

I choose not to run additional cantrips because my local meta does have some decks that make any cantrip in my opener beyond the first a dead card, namely Chalice, Thalia and Gaddock Teeg decks. Cantrips are very strong against discard and against blue decks that give you a lot of time before they kill you, but if you're trying to kill early and all you're using your cantrips for is finding that one Ritual or Tutor effect you need for the kill, playing an extra Ritual and an extra Tutor effect over the two worst cantrips makes perfect sense in my eyes. Increasing threat density at the expense of Cantrips is what TES has always been doing, so idk why you have a problem with it. In that regard your denotation of Preordain as 'quality cards' doesn't make sense for me, maybe you could elaborate what you mean with this. I think that DP/BW are business cards and Preordain are merely cantrips that help you sculpt, and that's the durdly aspect I was referring to.


Its ridiculous to claim your PIF loop is as strong as ANTs given the less cardselection tools to setup the loop or Cabal Rituals. Teeg is no argument for PIF+ToA in maindeck but running 3 Moxen and MB EtW.

I'm playing 3 Burning Wish main that help me beat Teeg, and I'm playing PiF+ToA main because I consider it the best kill condition. One doesn't really have much to do with the other. And if you're trying to convince me that those 2 Preordains are the reason ANT has a stronger PiF loop than my deck, then I won't buy it. Yes, that one Preordain in the graveyard may help you get Thresh. That one blue mana you spent may also be exactly that one mana you'll end up short of killing them. And yes, that Preordain will help you sculpt your hand perfectly, but cantrips can also miss and there are times when you wish that cantrip had just been another Tutor effect or Ritual, because you may have killed 3 turns earlier if they were.

[Lemnear]

Yes, it is at least a 25% improvement of my chances to hit an IMS in every single flip while resolving an Ad Nauseam, and that is all that matters in this context. The number goes up for each IMS that has already been used prior to AN. If one has been used, the increase is 33% per flip. Sometimes you have no choice but to go for AN and in most cases IMS are the most important thing you're looking for. Having a 25% increased chance to flip one per card is helpful.

With all respect, this is math in a nutshell. The relative increase of IMS' in that list (total of 60 cards) is marginal especially as it doesn't outweight the increase of average cmc you flip with that list (thanks to cutting Moxen, and more 2/4cc cards).


I love the 5th petal so far, but I dislike playing more than 1 Mox in my list, because naturally drawing two is almost always terrible.

It's the usual dilemma of TES: you want speed and a lot of IMS', but that bites you in longer games and mulligans. I search for a solution for years.


I said exactly that a little later in my post. My avg cmc is higher, not just that one cc4 card. However, oftentimes you barely care about your avg cmc when resolving an AN, but you do care that once you hit 4 life there are cards that kill you. That's why I highlited the extra cc4 and cc5 cards as being the main disadvantage. Those cards matter the most when it comes to having to stop flipping. It is of note that this is exactly why I hate DP with AN. Even though your avg mana may only increase by 0.0X, which seems like it doesn't matter, having just one copy of DP in your deck means you can't freely continue revealing when you're at 5.

I feel it's a bit more complicated as "having to stop" implies that you need more components to kill and you have to work around a lack of a certain factor. This is pretty tricky if facing burn, Tempo or other combo decks, where "passing the turn" after a resolved but non-lethal AN pretty much equals a loss. The required IMS' in the deck are tacked to the average number of cards you're able to flip to AN factoring optional mana floated.

With this in mind, the average number of required IMS can be raised/lowered by a) the average cmc of the whole deck and b) the highest cmc left in the deck to flip to AN. This works to two extreme sides in TES as running with several EtWs postboard required me to run more IMS (reads: Moxen) to make up for the increased cmc (topend manacost for AN remained the same obviously), while the other extreme of running w/o a Maindeck 4cc card pretty much voids the need for ANY Chrome Moxen as the topend cmc to flip is no longer 4 mana but 2.

Your list (and probably others which take the direction of TNT) is special as your added 4cc cards (ToA & PIF) have no Synergy with either the Mox(en) nor for good AN flips (baring cornercases of flipping 4 black mana in various combinations plus ToA). You run the Mox(en) for AN only which do not even interact well with Cabal Ritual either, nor does Cabal Ritual work well with BW to grab EtW. For me both traits you try to combine lack the glue which keeps them together as a working unity. This is a personal POV that both concepts don't fit into a single 60 card deck, unless WotC actually prints this "glue" I'm waiting for since years. DP was close, but is not what we were looking for.


The most recent past has shown that the currently most successful Storm player plays maindeck AN and 2 DPs. And the more traditional 2 Island lists have generally adapted to replacing the previously run Grim with 1 DP. So I disagree with you here. DP has made it into a lot of ANT decks and despite the obvious nonbo, it works. I also haven't seen a single list place at a tournament with main deck DP plus ETW, so idk where you got this from. If you have a source, please share it, because I'm interested.

I could hint at MKM Madrid where you also see a traditional list of ANT in the top 4 beside the netdecked one with AN + DP. If you want to see the later config comically fail at winning with Ad Nauseam look at the Gp Seattle coverage. To be clear: DP does NOT work with AN (Vice versa) and boarding plans showed it. It's a plan C in the deck that ran it. DP + EtW was the non-combo postboard for Caleb and Eric in SCG IQ Kansas. Given they both made T8 it seems to have not been too bad, compared to the AN Stunts we saw in the Seattle coverage.


Once again you seem to be drawing the comparisons in a way that always makes my list seem worse than the other. Yes, I've admitted about a thousand times that my list is worse at resolving AN than TES. No need to bring this up over and over again. But my list is significantly better at winning through AN than ANT is. We're talking about 1 Mox, 1 Rain of Filth and 3 BWish vs the 15th land, 2 Preordain and 1 DP. All 5 of those cards in my deck are relevant post AN, and all 5 of those cards in ANT are either irrelevant and/or bad flips. I know you see this as well, so idk why you're trying your best to talk around the fact and deny it.

I sure wouldn't have started if your Verdict would not have boiled down to "it's better than TES here and better than ANT there" rather than adressing the obvious issues of combining both concepts into a single 60 card deck which the collectible storm HiveMind failed to solve in the last 5+ years because the "glue" which would fit AN + PIF together (conceptionally) isn't printed (yet).


I'll just ignore the fact that you calles ToA a dead maindeck card, because we all know that this is not true. I opt to play MD ToA because I do not want to miss out on the most reliable kill condition a Storm deck can have in Legacy, which is a nice and clean PiF loop that doesn't require more than one red mana total and as little as RB3 floating when tutoring for PiF. ToA is not durdly, in case you were implying that, because it actually lets me kill with PiF way earlier and faster than if I was running something like Bryant's current hybrid list.

The cleanest way is imo a natural 10 count and ToA in hand is lackluster (barely as often as it is to flip to AN) unless you have the remaining spells for a leathal stormcount available as well. It's a lot like drawing a Mox for my personal taste in most cases.

I cannot agree with PIF looping "fast" if you play less cardselection to get access to IT and Rituals while filling your graveyard for CRs t.hold. This is one more of the problematic differences between the storm siblings as TES dös not want to rely on the graveyard, nor wants to cantrip for about two turns before having access to the full potential of manaacceleration.


I choose not to run additional cantrips because my local meta does have some decks that make any cantrip in my opener beyond the first a dead card, namely Chalice, Thalia and Gaddock Teeg decks. Cantrips are very strong against discard and against blue decks that give you a lot of time before they kill you, but if you're trying to kill early and all you're using your cantrips for is finding that one Ritual or Tutor effect you need for the kill, playing an extra Ritual and an extra Tutor effect over the two worst cantrips makes perfect sense in my eyes.

While these hatebears and Co are a perfect reason to dismiss the regular ANT plan to cantrip for the first two turns, it raised the question how PIF and the slower Rituals are a better solution than Moxen and EtW in the Maindeck. Unless you have a SB plan to basically board out the whole PIF package to bring in EtWs, the whole package is no solution.


Increasing threat density at the expense of Cantrips is what TES has always been doing, so idk why you have a problem with it. In that regard your denotation of Preordain as 'quality cards' doesn't make sense for me, maybe you could elaborate what you mean with this. I think that DP/BW are business cards and Preordain are merely cantrips that help you sculpt, and that's the durdly aspect I was referring to.

I have "a problem" with it as Wishes/Moxen do absolutely nothing for CabalRitual/PIF or Vice versa. If you have mana and PIF and topdeck a Wish, it leaves you with barely an out (double red!) but a Preordain feeds your yard and gets you closer to IT without the need to run substitutes like Wish/Grim/Petition/etc. at all and without splashing a full color like Wish requires, so a Preordain serves double duty. Wish is a density option for a fast layout of a storm deck, but Preordain basically does the same (by finding IT) if you need to get t.hold first anyways

A deck with CR does not plan to explode T1 or T2 all the time and if a deck does not, there is no reason to run a density option like Wish (because of colorsplash, limited options, not feeding t. hold, etc). Dunno how to express it differentes . Sorry


I'm playing 3 Burning Wish main that help me beat Teeg, and I'm playing PiF+ToA main because I consider it the best kill condition.

Trying both in the same deck is the impossible split I mentioned. Trying to reliable Wish for EtW without several Moxen or RiteOfFlame is a pure matter of luck.


One doesn't really have much to do with the other. And if you're trying to convince me that those 2 Preordains are the reason ANT has a stronger PiF loop than my deck, then I won't buy it. Yes, that one Preordain in the graveyard may help you get Thresh. That one blue mana you spent may also be exactly that one mana you'll end up short of killing them.

The difference between your suggestion and ANT are not +/-2 Preordain as we discussed already. It's what the Preordains do for your virtual density of Rituals/IT, for your t.hold and for your manabase, given you can't fully profit from the potential speed Wish->EtW provides. It's a bit off to point at a single blue mana of being short of killing your opponent if you consider Wish->ToA a common trait to win


And yes, that Preordain will help you sculpt your hand perfectly, but cantrips can also miss and there are times when you wish that cantrip had just been another Tutor effect or Ritual, because you may have killed 3 turns earlier if they were.

Cantripping into cantrips is an annoying possibility in ANT variants with up to 16 cantrips, but not more lackluster than drawing into several Wishes/Moxen in TES. At times cantripping into cantrips is even handy if fighting against DRS while trying to turn on CRs. the discussion of "too many tutors you draw VS not enough Tutors to cantrip into" is endless :)

[Izor]

Thanks for your answer, I understand many of your points better now.


It's the usual dilemma of TES: you want speed and a lot of IMS', but that bites you in longer games and mulligans. I search for a solution for years.

Me too, although probably not as long as you. When I first built a Storm deck I immediately turned towards TES because I live the card BWish and I generally love cards that give me options and outs in almost any situation (I'll get back to that preference of mine in a second). However, after testing everything from TES to Grinding station and anything in between I know that I don't want to run more than one Chrome Mox in my decks any more. I've had it happen way too often that I keep a medium hand with a Mox and draw the second mox that turns the hand into total garbage. If you mulligan even just 1 Chrome mox is very bad most of the time. I am fine replacing my 15th land with just a singleton copy though. I'm constantly keeping track of whether a land would have been better when I draw it. Mox isn't only for post AN, it can also just be better than another land in somewhat clunky hands (and by virtue of BWish in my list I can actually imprint PiF or Tendrils into a Mox instead of almost always wanting to Brainstorm them away asap).

@ everything else talked about:

I think we agree that a hybrid list will always have advantages and disadvantages over the specialized lists. If we boil down the game plan of Storm decks into 4 main paths to victory, those would be Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, Empty the Warrens and natural Storm/tutor chain. Specialized Storm decks try to optimize usually two of those 4. TES prioritizes AN and ETW, but has (in comparison) a very weak PiF and natural storm route. ANT is very good at PiF looping and natural storming, but has severely weakened ANs and no EtW at all.

My list is not as good as the specialists at anything, but in turn it is at least decent at everything. I fully understand if other people don't want to choose that list. But I prefer it over the specialized lists because, as I mentioned above, I like to have options and outs in all situations.

I don't want to play regular ANT because I refuse to scoop to a game 1 Teeg. I also refuse to scoop to a DRS eating my Tendrils. In generel I refuse to struggle very hard to win before I have threshold or if my graveyard is heavily disrupted. Just a turn 1 DRS on the play is a huge problem for ANT. And the deck just has too few ways to reliably beat Thalia and friends game 1, whether it be through racing or actually killing it.

At the same time, I don't want to play Rite of Flame and Chrome Mox any more, because every time you cast them outside of turn 1 or 2, you notice their incredible lack of power. I also don't want to be stranded without a reliable way to win if the game goes on for a few turns and my life total is threatened. I've ran into too many situations where my life total was getting low (below 10) and my opponent had a board that 14 Goblins could never beat. TES is often out of options in that scenario, because their PiF route requires too many resources.. I also don't want to get Wastelanded out of the game more frequently.


If everything goes well and your specialized win cons are not threatened, my deck is worse than ANT and TES, because I may look at my hand not sure what path to choose, because several paths seem equally likely to work. That's the disadvantage I have to live with, but that's fine with me. I can be happy when my opponent spends his first two turns dropping graveyard hate, because I know I have a reliable enough AN or EtW route. I can also be happy if my opponent has 20 unblockalbe Merfolk power on board with me at 1 life as long as I have a quick PiF route that takes the game regardless. Or when they play Burn and get you down to below 10 life on turn 2, etc.

With the list I posted above, I can basically sideboard into any existing Storm variant if I feel the need to. I can take out BWish and board in DP and turn my deck into the standard post board configuration of ANT. I can also board out PiF and Tendrils and board in EtW and play out more like TES. I can even board in the 2nd Tendrils, DP and PiF and take out AN and 3 Wish to play Grinding Station. Once again, I'm not saying that this is the only and best way to go, but I love it and I've been successful so far.

[Lemnear]

Me too, although probably not as long as you. When I first built a Storm deck I immediately turned towards TES because I live the card BWish and I generally love cards that give me options and outs in almost any situation (I'll get back to that preference of mine in a second).

TES traditionally sucks in finding solutions with Wish as it's a horrible Tempo move first and requires you to expose duals to Wasteland second. TES is build to be the aggressor in each match. You'll sure understand my point that making bad Tempo-tradeoffs is no way to turn around a match if you need to invest 3+ mana (Wish + "solution") with a manabase of Petals, Moxen and limited lands. ANT might be able to make up for some Tempo losses thanks to the power of CR and stable mana (Basics!), but for TES it's a losing Position. (This I removed Void Snare from my SB)


However, after testing everything from TES to Grinding station and anything in between I know that I don't want to run more than one Chrome Mox in my decks any more. I've had it happen way too often that I keep a medium hand with a Mox and draw the second mox that turns the hand into total garbage. If you mulligan even just 1 Chrome mox is very bad most of the time. I am fine replacing my 15th land with just a singleton copy though. I'm constantly keeping track of whether a land would have been better when I draw it. Mox isn't only for post AN, it can also just be better than another land in somewhat clunky hands (and by virtue of BWish in my list I can actually imprint PiF or Tendrils into a Mox instead of almost always wanting to Brainstorm them away asap).

There is barely a bigger Mox-hater than me in this thread. Every game which exceeds turn 2, Mox is a lackluster card to palm/draw. This lead me to cutting all 4cc cards in the Maindeck for the GP Lille so I get around bothering with the Moxen


@ everything else talked about:

I think we agree that a hybrid list will always have advantages and disadvantages over the specialized lists. If we boil down the game plan of Storm decks into 4 main paths to victory, those would be Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, Empty the Warrens and natural Storm/tutor chain. Specialized Storm decks try to optimize usually two of those 4. TES prioritizes AN and ETW, but has (in comparison) a very weak PiF and natural storm route. ANT is very good at PiF looping and natural storming, but has severely weakened ANs and no EtW at all.

I don't quite agree with the idea that TES sucks at natural stormchains, given I basically won half my GP games with it. Key to that route however is deciding on that trait early in the game and stocking up resources/cantrips/discard/mana rather than blowing all Probes & Ponders & discard spells in the first two turns as you can't cheat on stormcount by chaining Tutors, but have to do it with cantrips/discard instead, which was how I beat several Delver variants (running DTT) back in summer. It's not quote intuitive for TES to be kinda passive in the early game, but it can pay off against decks which pressure your life, giving another angle in addition to EtW or PIF. (You'll find more details on the TES Website in the actual report if you Wish)


My list is not as good as the specialists at anything, but in turn it is at least decent at everything. I fully understand if other people don't want to choose that list. But I prefer it over the specialized lists because, as I mentioned above, I like to have options and outs in all situations.

Depends on if you don't prefer clearly defined "stumblestones" matchwise instead of encountering problems which are a result of drawing unfortunate combinations of both decks halves. Personally I favor the clear cut cases like seeing Delver on the opposing side to know that "I" HAVE to adjust my gameplan, rather than potentially falling for the idea that MAYBE all is fine IF I draw the PIF half of the deck. It's one of many examples which are "STOP!" signs for the average aggressive approach of TES in a game. I hope you can follow me here. Sorry for any possible confusion


I don't want to play regular ANT because I refuse to scoop to a game 1 Teeg. I also refuse to scoop to a DRS eating my Tendrils. In generel I refuse to struggle very hard to win before I have threshold or if my graveyard is heavily disrupted. Just a turn 1 DRS on the play is a huge problem for ANT. And the deck just has too few ways to reliably beat Thalia and friends game 1, whether it be through racing or actually killing it.

Playing around DRS is an ANT 101 lesson imo. From overloading it with chaining cantrips to reacting to DRS with instant speed for t.hold shenanigans to the double IT play for the successful PIF loop, DRS is still a lot less annoying than Thalia or Meddling Mage.


At the same time, I don't want to play Rite of Flame and Chrome Mox any more, because every time you cast them outside of turn 1 or 2, you notice their incredible lack of power. I also don't want to be stranded without a reliable way to win if the game goes on for a few turns and my life total is threatened. I've ran into too many situations where my life total was getting low (below 10) and my opponent had a board that 14 Goblins could never beat. TES is often out of options in that scenario, because their PiF route requires too many resources.. I also don't want to get Wastelanded out of the game more frequently.

See the Passage above.


If everything goes well and your specialized win cons are not threatened, my deck is worse than ANT and TES, because I may look at my hand not sure what path to choose, because several paths seem equally likely to work. That's the disadvantage I have to live with, but that's fine with me. I can be happy when my opponent spends his first two turns dropping graveyard hate, because I know I have a reliable enough AN or EtW route. I can also be happy if my opponent has 20 unblockalbe Merfolk power on board with me at 1 life as long as I have a quick PiF route that takes the game regardless. Or when they play Burn and get you down to below 10 life on turn 2, etc.

Extension of the written above. TES doesn't leave you stranded with Goblins if life drops low if you acknowledge the possibility to that happening early into the game and adjust your use of Fetchlands/cantrips accordingly. Another common counter to facing decks which damage you fast, is boarding in PIF (and potentially ToA) to turn into TNT with the option to Wish->DP->ToA or Wish->DP->PIF->DP->ToA for these games without messing with TES' mainboard strengh to race Teeg/Thalia/YouNameIt with it's average Standard setup. The decks 75 are interchangeable to turn into TNT postboard anyways (in addition to the previous mentioned natural storm plan by sandbagging cantrips/etc), so I can't quite agree having to have a PIF mainboard plan to maintain a shot at beating very aggressive and fast decktypes like Burn. Labeling TES only being able to win with AN of EtW is off. The deck has a lot more strategic depth if you don't look at PIF as "a Sideboard card" only, just to repeat a single aspect ned to far :)


With the list I posted above, I can basically sideboard into any existing Storm variant if I feel the need to. I can take out BWish and board in DP and turn my deck into the standard post board configuration of ANT. I can also board out PiF and Tendrils and board in EtW and play out more like TES. I can even board in the 2nd Tendrils, DP and PiF and take out AN and 3 Wish to play Grinding Station. Once again, I'm not saying that this is the only and best way to go, but I love it and I've been successful so far.

So I ask: Have you given the average TES list the same Chance to "board into any existing storm variant" in your testing & tournaments played? Have you explored the strategic variance of the full 75 by boarding in various numbers of PIF/EtW/ToA/DP/etc. according to the matchup you're facing before deciding you "have to" alter the Maindeck despite the highlighted number of Teegs/Thalia/etc in your metagame?

P.S.: i enjoy the discussion. Greetings from a SPA Ressort is Ustka/Poland

[Final Fortune]

So has anyone else started to consider the impact of Warping Wail on Storm, because between Sneak Attack and Death and Taxes I think it means Xantid Swarm is worthless in the SB and Thoughtseize takes the place of Duress in the MD as boarding out discard is a mistake for game 2 vs aggro.

They basically gave D&T SB, if not MD, Counterspells that they'll likely use considering it tripples as removal and a creature. It may have even greater impact on the meta as a whole, as decks like URx Humans with Cavern of Souls makes Warping Wail a MD/SB card and threatens Miracles with uncounterable creatures and dedicated counters to Terminus, or Stompy and Merfolk decks see a revival and we have to deal with MD Chalice of the Void.

Edit: And Thought Knot is 4x T2 Clique in Stompy decks, yeesh.

This set looks pretty profound for the format.

[Lemnear]

So has anyone else started to consider the impact of Warping Wail on Storm, because between Sneak Attack and Death and Taxes I think it means Xantid Swarm is worthless in the SB and Thoughtseize takes the place of Duress in the MD as boarding out discard is a mistake for game 2 vs aggro.

They basically gave D&T SB, if not MD, Counterspells that they'll likely use considering it tripples as removal and a creature. It may have even greater impact on the meta as a whole, as decks like URx Humans with Cavern of Souls makes Warping Wail a MD/SB card and threatens Miracles with uncounterable creatures and dedicated counters to Terminus, or Stompy and Merfolk decks see a revival and we have to deal with MD Chalice of the Void.

Edit: And Thought Knot is 4x T2 Clique in Stompy decks, yeesh.

This set looks pretty profound for the format.

I don't see either card making an impact. If D&T boards Canonists or Warping wail maked a minor difference for storm

[Final Fortune]

I don't see either card making an impact. If D&T boards Canonists or Warping wail maked a minor difference for storm

I think it matters a lot if prison decks can interact on the stack with a card that isnt as one dimentional as Mindbreak Trap, its actually decent removal fwiw, i'd expect it and Thought Knot to see play. Im not saying it is the death of Storm or anything, but multi vector hate is worrysome.

[Lemnear]

I think it matters a lot if prison decks can interact on the stack with a card that isnt as one dimentional as Mindbreak Trap, its actually decent removal fwiw, i'd expect it and Thought Knot to see play. Im not saying it is the death of Storm or anything, but multi vector hate is worrysome.

It IS Mindbreak Trap just that our opponents HAVE to keep two mana up AND it is no thread before they have these two mana. For me the card is a lot worse than MBT covering that angle of defense against storm and most decks which are named as potentially interrested in the card have already better tools in Chalice/Thorn/Discard/hatebears/etc. than Warping Wail

[Final Fortune]

It IS Mindbreak Trap just that our opponents HAVE to keep two mana up AND it is no thread before they have these two mana. For me the card is a lot worse than MBT covering that angle of defense against storm and most decks which are named as potentially interrested in the card have already better tools in Chalice/Thorn/Discard/hatebears/etc. than Warping Wail

Ofcourse Mindbreak Trap is better than Warping Wail vs Storm, that would be a relevant statement if anyone actually played Mindbreak Trap, but the point of the matter is Warping Wail is good enough of a removal card in order to also be a Counterspell vs Storm. Yes Chalice, Thorn and Trinisphere are better than Warping Wail vs Storm, however why wouldn't they play those cards in additiona to Warping Wail considering the latter serves as removal, threat (Equipment) and mana ramp which none of the former do? You're more likely to see the cards in conjunction and not in place of one another as the Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors "1 drop," and given the ressurrection of every Stompy thread on the first page of Established Decks I think that's a fair indicator that Warping Wail and Thought Knot are going to have an impact on the format.

[Bryant Cook]

New TES mailbox is up: http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-6/

[mario91234]

@ Bryant

What list do you refer to at the end in the latest TES mailbox?

[Bobmans]

I got a question, to which i probably know the answer, concerning Burning Wish. Can you bring back a sorcery that was previously exiled with say Deathrite Shaman? Thought i ask it here since this is probably the one deck that knows all ins and outs to Burning Wish interactions.

[Hopo]

I got a question, to which i probably know the answer, concerning Burning Wish. Can you bring back a sorcery that was previously exiled with say Deathrite Shaman? Thought i ask it here since this is probably the one deck that knows all ins and outs to Burning Wish interactions.

Not anymore. That used to be the case but there was a rules change some years ago changing that.

[Lemnear]

I got a question, to which i probably know the answer, concerning Burning Wish. Can you bring back a sorcery that was previously exiled with say Deathrite Shaman? Thought i ask it here since this is probably the one deck that knows all ins and outs to Burning Wish interactions.

WotC changed how the Wishes work a few years ago and Exiled cards cannot be wished for to make it short

[Bryant Cook]

@ Bryant

What list do you refer to at the end in the latest TES mailbox?

It was your list from the Tales of Adventure Satellite event. I mentioned in the group how I think you were onto something interesting, but the list itself needed a lot of work.

[Bobmans]

Thnx Hopo and Lemnear for the quick answer.

[mario91234]

It was your list from the Tales of Adventure Satellite event. I mentioned in the group how I think you were onto something interesting, but the list itself needed a lot of work.

I figured since i've been working on that list for about 4-5 months. I lately had dark petition as a the md toughtseize, but decided that there was sufficient business already. In traditional TES i was not pleased with any hand that was not fast and would mulligan aggressively hands that were 1 land and 2 blue mana cards as those lose more games than they are worth. I ended up losing in t8 to a pretty bad hex depths deck due to mull to 5 vs t3 marit lage and a t2 gobs on play vs hand full of disruption but he still t4 marit laged.

I commonly side out brainstorms against decks with 2 mana you cant storm cards when i am on the draw. Because i play so much business i feel this is a reasonable approach to those matchups and one that traditional TES did not allow. Sometimes, the best card filtering is the mulligan and that might be were the deck is headed. Having the full 12 rituals and some supplemental chrome mox, spirit guide allows for belcher speed starts. When speed is not important, those cards can come out in exchange for decays, the bayou, contract, etc.

Contract did win me a game against 10 post though in willing to admit it's a pet card.

Im unsure where the deck can go other due to my belief that the deck is optimized for speed g1 as is. There is considerable flexibility with the amout of fast mana and storm cards. I was happy with this flexibility.

Interested to see your take.

[Bryant Cook]

If I were to try that approach it would be this:

4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Ad Nauseam

[Pilhas]

Thoughts on running a grapeshot in the SB? Since that list relies so much on empty it seems like a good fit

[Bryant Cook]

New article: http://www.theepicstorm.com/flex-spots-and-indecisiveness/

[Jordon-mtg]

Hey guys! So I just made top 8 of the legacy classic again playing TES. So I'm 2 for 2! Lost to the MUD player twice, once in swiss and again in top 8. Really hard to beat chalice for 1 on turn one and trinisphere turn two every game :(

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=98017

[Bryant Cook]

We congratulated you in the Facebook group, either way, well done!

[Gikkman]

The EPIC Storm's homepage seems to be down (for me at least). Does anyone have the hybrid list readily available? I can't recall it 100%

[Pilhas]

Played my first tournament with TES (12people 5 rounds) and ended up first(tiebreakers) :)

Went with this list:


4x Burning Wish
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Ponder
4x Rite of Flame

1x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

1x Badlands
1x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island

1x Ad Nauseam
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual


Sideboard (15)

4x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Dark Petition
2x Dread of Night
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Massacre
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Void Snare


I will only talk about the sideboard since I can't recall most of the games

R1 RUG Delver 2-0
SB: None

R2 UR Delver(With the new 2CMC prowess guy) 2-1(Combo over Eidolon in second and third game)
SB(Game 2) +2 Chains -1 Probe -1 Ponder
(Game 3 after I saw Eidolons) -1 Ponder +1 Grapeshot

R3 Oops All Spells(With the new 2CMC prowess guy) 0-2
SB(Game 1) +2 Chains -2 Ponder

R4 Sneak and Show (With the new 2CMC prowess guy) 2-1
SB(Game 1) +2 Chains -2 Ponder

R5 Miracles 1-0(Ended in turnsof second game, I was dead on board after tendrils leaving him to 1)
SB(Game 1) +1 Tendrils +4 Decay -1 Chrome Mox -1 Rite of Flame -1 Ponder -1 Gitaxian Probe


Thoughts:

Grapeshot was awesome to close out games
Think I should have brought the PiF against Miracles to become more Grindier
Felt helpless against Oops. Is that normal?
Missed Xantid in the S&S matchup
Have no ideia of the SB I am doing
Missed the second Chrome mox, but got cut for the Bayou to make space for the Grapeshot




Any comment and help with the sideboards are greatly appreciated.

[LDX]

Your maindeck has 59 cards, and you said you didn't play a second Chrome Mox. What were you playing in that spot?

[Pilhas]

the 2nd chrome mox was cut for the Bayou.
Card missing is a Duress.

[LDX]

Ok. I'm done with Shattering Spree. Meta is still infested with Chalice of the Void, but too many times I can't even cast a proper, good Shattering Spree because I lack red mana.

I thought Lotus Petal would be often but people are catching up, they first cast at 0, then at 1. It leaves me only with a Volcanic and a Badlands to use the replicate, so yeah, it's not working.

What are the options?

Abrupt Decay
That's implying I can get a green mana. Most of the times, I'm just getting screwed with Wasteland and Ports when it comes to that. Not fetchable with Burning Wish. However, not counterable, is a must in SB anyway because of Counterbalance.

Meltdown
Can easily be countered, tho most decks playing Chalice of the Void don't run many counterspells. Is fetchable, but can't be used at the end of turn; requires a turn to clean, then next turn to win. Won't get countered with an other Chalice.

Chain of Vapor
Can't be used game one, but can be used at the end of turn, has other options like extra storm counter. Biggest counter? It costs 1, I can never cast that due to Chalice @ 1.

Echoing Truth
Can be used at the end of turn, costs 2 so is rather safe vs other Chalice, but can't be used game one, and doesn't get rid of Chalice + Ethersworn like Meltdown can.

Thoughts?

[Maikhell]

Pulverize is also an option against chalice... kind of a clunk one, but still... it's wishable.

There is always stuff like Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild, but it also seems too narrow.

[Lemnear]

Pulverize is also an option against chalice... kind of a clunk one, but still... it's wishable.

There is always stuff like Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild, but it also seems too narrow.

How often do we control two Mountains? You plan to cast Rebuild against Lodestone Golemn and/or Wastelands?

[Maikhell]

How often do we control two Mountains? You plan to cast Rebuild against Lodestone Golemn and/or Wastelands?

LDX just said that he uses a Volcanic and a Badlands, wich is more plausable to be using Pulverize than in a 2 Volcanics build. Considering that he have said about Rishadan Ports in his opponents lists then I'm inclined to think that he's talking about D&T. Therefore, it hasn't Lodestones. Hurkyl's still a better option than Rebuild.

Anyway, against D&T (and similar builds) I would not try to respond their lock pieces. I would rather try to combo as fast as I can... you know, like going belcher style.

[LDX]

Maikhell, please note that the D&T I face are running Chalice of the Void 4x, Ethersworn Canonist, and Enlightened Tutor to reach those pieces at will. As I said before in here and in some articles, simply rushing doesn't help when it can be 100% impossible to win game 2. By that, I mean, we're on the draw, they play Chalice @ 0, Chalice @ 1 on their second turn. It requires you to win T1 without artifacts. Which never happened to me yet.

I appreciate your Pulverize suggestion, but yeah, I believe at this point that being able to remove all artifacts before your actual combo turn is better than being wishable. And being honest, I was pointing that two red sources (let alone Mountains!) aren't enough for Shattering Spree, so yeah, I wouldn't see myself cast Pulverize at any time. For this reason, I have to consider Hurkyl's Recall over anything else, competing for now with Echoing Truth, which as some other uses.

That being said, the reason I ask is because I was very lucky to have a lot of help here, but then my playgroup started lurking this thread and adapt to the answers I was given. Since we aren't playing Magic as of late, this is just the best time to ask. As also said before by others, the ''classic'' TES list is built to win large tournaments, not small playgroups in which people adapt to you. Again it might explain my struggle.

But then, I'm playing on Cockatrice more than anything else, and Chalice of the Void became really popular with this new set. I want to test against the hate there.

[Lemnear]

Maikhell, please note that the D&T I face are running Chalice of the Void 4x, Ethersworn Canonist, and Enlightened Tutor to reach those pieces at will. As I said before in here and in some articles, simply rushing doesn't help when it can be 100% impossible to win game 2. By that, I mean, we're on the draw, they play Chalice @ 0, Chalice @ 1 on their second turn. It requires you to win T1 without artifacts. Which never happened to me yet.

I appreciate your Pulverize suggestion, but yeah, I believe at this point that being able to remove all artifacts before your actual combo turn is better than being wishable. And being honest, I was pointing that two red sources (let alone Mountains!) aren't enough for Shattering Spree, so yeah, I wouldn't see myself cast Pulverize at any time. For this reason, I have to consider Hurkyl's Recall over anything else, competing for now with Echoing Truth, which as some other uses.

That being said, the reason I ask is because I was very lucky to have a lot of help here, but then my playgroup started lurking this thread and adapt to the answers I was given. Since we aren't playing Magic as of late, this is just the best time to ask. As also said before by others, the ''classic'' TES list is built to win large tournaments, not small playgroups in which people adapt to you. Again it might explain my struggle.

But then, I'm playing on Cockatrice more than anything else, and Chalice of the Void became really popular with this new set. I want to test against the hate there.

Trygon Predator... shhhhh

[LDX]

Trygon Predator... shhhhh

Haha, I actually don't know if it's a real suggestion, or a piece of that legendary german humor. :) I feel like this is a fool trap or something.

I'll bite, let's elaborate a just a bit more on Trygon Predator.

The main issue is that its effect isn't relevant before turn 4.

Other issues include, but are not limited to:

-Creatures can be removed (even if most spot-removal are gone against us post-board, some still fear Xantid and keep some, or some multi-effect cards like Lightning Bolt hits hard)

-Only remove one piece of hate at time (in other words, 1 swing is MINIMUM, could need more swings to remove Chalice @ 1 + Chalice @ 0, not talking about Ethersworn, Trinisphere, etc.)

-Can be blocked by Delver or any other flying creature (thus making its effect unusable)

-Forcing the vulnerability to Wasteland before our combo turn (turn 3 to cast, turn 4 to have a first effect, turn 5 if needed... so much time not hiding behind fetches)


Now let's re-explain the whole situation in a proper, logical manner.

Locks are locks. Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, and Chalice among others are very hard on TES.

Two solutions: 1) win before they get dropped 2) answer them.

It seems that, without a perfect T1 hand on the play, I can't win before facing some hate. And that's being lucky, meaning my opponent doesn't play Leyline of Sanctity (which is not an artifact, I concur.) Even if we drop all our artifacts on turn 1 proactively trying to counter the Chalice @ 0 coming next, we must win on our turn 2 at max, because they'll keep that Chalice @ 0 for a Chalice @ 1 now, on their turn 2. It is technically possible to win without removing a Chalice @ 1 if you dropped some artifacts on turn 1, but let's be realistic: these scenarios are the exceptions, not the norm.

When a piece of hate is down, we can try to rush through it, but we'll all admit it becomes harder and harder as time goes by, right? Because we couldn't win before it was landed, and don't focus on removing the lock piece.

Now I wish I could do proper maths, but I don't believe the coefficent Trygon Predator gives to us is a proper sweetspot between speed and removal.

You know my position, I prefer to give myself a chance at winning despite a hate that comes too often, than sitting in front of 2 Chalices that lock me at 100% (like, impossible to win) with 0 & 1 counters. Is is not that I want to argue ''removal > speed'', it is that, most of the time, ''speed = 1% chance winning, removal = 10%''.

For this reason, I'm trying to find the best removal possible. Honestly I think anymore justification on this point would be just redundancy. Let's move on.

That leaves us with the debate of which hate to choose. To be honest, I couldn't see myself play Trygon Predator, especially as every turn is so important. Even if the only option left is the removal, there's still room to play between the power of the removal and the speed of it, and I would argue that Trygon Predator is nor fast, not powerful for all the reasons listed above. I'm ready to listen because I acknowledge your abilities more than mine, but please explain to me how it's a better solution than any of the previous ones listed. I mean, the only, very tiny advantage I see is that extra 2 damage, but it comes by turn 4 (!) in a match-up you try to win by, at best turn 0, at worst turn 1, at impossible level turn 2.

What am I missing? Please enlighten me because the more I write about Trygon Predator, the more I feel like the card just... shouldn't be played.

Meanwhile, one thing I'm trying to do to gives me more chance with speed is to mulligan and shuffle better. While shuffling isn't a factor on Cockatrice, I indeed watched myself win a game or two with 5 cards in hands, when I had a previous 6 cards with removal hand. I'm really trying to understand and apply that speed should be the main factor, and this is something I can actually work on.

But it's not reliable.

[Spam]

In my experience, the only good ansew against artifacts is rebuild. It costs 3, but man the joy it brings.

[Lemnear]

-Only remove one piece of hate at time (in other words, 1 swing is MINIMUM, could need more swings to remove Chalice @ 1 + Chalice @ 0, not talking about Ethersworn, Trinisphere, etc.)

And how does a board of that win against Trygon? You fly over for two damage (aka one storm less required), destroy a card and repeat next turn while your D&T opponent locked himself out of Plowshares. As long as you play fetchlands, Petals and Chrome Moxen dropping the card turn 2 is pretty reasonable

[Bryant Cook]

New article on preparing for SCG: Philly - http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-current-state-chain-of-vapor/

[LDX]

And how does a board of that win against Trygon? You fly over for two damage (aka one storm less required), destroy a card and repeat next turn while your D&T opponent locked himself out of Plowshares. As long as you play fetchlands, Petals and Chrome Moxen dropping the card turn 2 is pretty reasonable

Man, I could write down the thousand win conditions of that deck, each hit of even Mother of Runes if needed, that grind the hell out of our Ad Nauseam. Thalia hits hard too, but I understand that Hurkyll's Recall doesn't take care of her either. I must admit this is very abstract in my mind, how Trygon can't help us, I mean, I can't settle down on which scenario to bring because it seems there are too many. That overflow of thoughts make me unable to write about it, just to feel how bad the idea seems to me.

But at the same time, I totally understand that feelings aren't something we can argue on, and that doesn't prove you that you're wrong.

I can get over that and try it on my own, it will surely either give me real, concrete scenarios to discuss, or prove me how wrong I was. I acknowledge enough to do that. Coming back to TES seems even harder than before lol.

On an other subject, I read that ''Top Five Legacy Decks'' by the ''experts''. I just wanted to let you know that I can't hate someone who can express his thoughts as clearly as you do. You surely bring some ideas out of the box (sometimes, way too far out of the box, let's admit it, lol), and some of your content can be a bit stretched, but most of the time, it makes sense. I can't agree all the time on substance, but the form is always sharp. I appreciate that. Makes you way more relevant than most around here, if I may. :smile:

[Pelikanudo]

Man, I could write down the thousand win conditions of that deck, each hit of even Mother of Runes if needed, that grind the hell out of our Ad Nauseam. Thalia hits hard too, but I understand that Hurkyll's Recall doesn't take care of her either. I must admit this is very abstract in my mind, how Trygon can't help us, I mean, I can't settle down on which scenario to bring because it seems there are too many. That overflow of thoughts make me unable to write about it, just to feel how bad the idea seems to me.

But at the same time, I totally understand that feelings aren't something we can argue on, and that doesn't prove you that you're wrong.

I can get over that and try it on my own, it will surely either give me real, concrete scenarios to discuss, or prove me how wrong I was. I acknowledge enough to do that. Coming back to TES seems even harder than before lol.

On an other subject, I read that ''Top Five Legacy Decks'' by the ''experts''. I just wanted to let you know that I can't hate someone who can express his thoughts as clearly as you do. You surely bring some ideas out of the box (sometimes, way too far out of the box, let's admit it, lol), and some of your content can be a bit stretched, but most of the time, it makes sense. I can't agree all the time on substance, but the form is always sharp. I appreciate that. Makes you way more relevant than most around here, if I may. :smile:

I would love to have the same problems as you vs D&T... and not the hell of Miracles....
I would try full of Echoing Truth, I just don't like Trygon because it is slow and it DOES not hits Thalia - now D&T play another Thalia 2.0. hatebear. also if they play Chalice at 0 and they start, landing C.M. and Petals to play Trygon is not an option.

I'm thinking about repeal becuase:
- you can play it for 1 mana to put up Chalice at 0 - which means less cost than E.T.
- you can play it by the same cost as E.T. vs Thalia
- You draw 1 extra card
- Sure you can not play it for a Chalice at 1 - however in my experience vs D&T and even if the start they do not reach the turn to play chalice at 1, for example vs Merfolks they absolutly prefer to play Chalice at 0 because maybe they loose having it in hand and intending to play it at 1. --> By this same reason you can play 4 CoV.

In general I like cards which are polivalent which means I will opt for answers as CoV or ET rather than Hurkils or SS specifically vs D&T, a different approach is vs MUD in which I absolutly prefer Hurkils or Rebuild. :)

EDIT: Conclusions:
Assuming D&T player will play Chalice at 0, likely the best thing you can do is playing 4 CoV.

Just my opinion.

[LDX]

- Sure you can not play it for a Chalice at 1 - however in my experience vs D&T and even if the start they do not reach the turn to play chalice at 1, for example vs Merfolks they absolutly prefer to play Chalice at 0 because maybe they loose having it in hand and intending to play it at 1. --> By this same reason you can play 4 CoV.

In general I like cards which are polivalent which means I will opt for answers as CoV or ET rather than Hurkils or SS specifically vs D&T, a different approach is vs MUD in which I absolutly prefer Hurkils or Rebuild. :)

EDIT: Conclusions:
Assuming D&T player will play Chalice at 0, likely the best thing you can do is playing 4 CoV.

I appreciate the input, but the reason I'm going so deep in this trouble is Chalice @ 0 + Chalice @ 1 = impossible to win without a CMC2+ removal. Sadly, Repeal doesn't work there.

[Lemnear]

I'm thinking about repeal becuase:
- you can play it for 1 mana to put up Chalice at 0 - which means less cost than E.T.
- you can play it by the same cost as E.T. vs Thalia
- You draw 1 extra card
- Sure you can not play it for a Chalice at 1 - however in my experience vs D&T and even if the start they do not reach the turn to play chalice at 1, for example vs Merfolks they absolutly prefer to play Chalice at 0 because maybe they loose having it in hand and intending to play it at 1. --> By this same reason you can play 4 CoV.

brilliant! 4cmc vs Thalia (Echoing Truth is 3cmc) and gets countered by Chalice @ 1 sounds like a REAL solution



EDIT: Conclusions:
Assuming D&T player will play Chalice at 0, likely the best thing you can do is playing 4 CoV.

tl;dr: By sideboarding is brilliant, given my opponents are all beyond stupid

[Pelikanudo]

brilliant! 4cmc vs Thalia (Echoing Truth is 3cmc) and gets countered by Chalice @ 1 sounds like a REAL solution

I knew I was going to be blamed by this I noticed this after editing, but my boss took me to fix some programming bugs and couldn't change the post... anyway Trygon is equally brilliant... and the funny thing is that still you believe is a good thing vs thalia, rishadans, wastealands...


tl;dr: By sideboarding is brilliant, given my opponents are all beyond stupid

In a deck like D&T which is filled with 2CMC haters, chalice at 1 is likely to not to occur UNLESS they have no others 2CMC hatebears in hand. simple. The unique scenario is If opponent handles 2 Chalice of the void in hand. thats why I think CoV is the best card vs D&T which also plays Chalices. in my experience vs D&T - with no chalices is that they just do not win because of belcher mode - therefore I didnt even need things vs 2CMC haters. Chalice at 0 is likely the best thing they can do...

@LDX:
my definately suggestion is CoV and/or E.T.
or you can play DoN plus artifacts hate like hurkils or serenity, not sure if Drop of honey would be a good idea... then dedicating 7 slots between hurkils and DoN.
in TES statistics are evindent as in no other deck in legacy, you need to assume that things sometimes will not work and if you assume that your oponent will not land 2 chalices before you win, the rest of statistics dictate that you will win on the rest of scenarios, that's why I suggest 4 CoV and I firmly believe so.

Bahamut could you give him your opinión if you are by here?

Apart, any news in regards of new strategy vs Miracles apart of full EtW?

[Lemnear]

anyway Trygon is equally brilliant... and the funny thing is that still you believe is a good thing vs thalia, rishadans, wastealands...

Quite brilliant that this comes from the man playing 12 land rainbow manabase adressing a player with 14 land fetchland/Dual manabase. Thalia does not affect Trygon btw. so this point confuses me equally to your claim that EchoingTruth/Repeal vs Thalia is the same manacost.


In a deck like D&T which is filled with 2CMC haters, chalice at 1 is likely to not to occur UNLESS they have no others 2CMC hatebears in hand. simple. The unique scenario is If opponent handles 2 Chalice of the void in hand. thats why I think CoV is the best card vs D&T which also plays Chalices. in my experience vs D&T - with no chalices is that they just do not win because of belcher mode - therefore I didnt even need things vs 2CMC haters. Chalice at 0 is likely the best thing they can do...

"hatebears" like Canonist or Revokoker are also handled by Trygon, just saying. I still have no freaking clue how you want to win through Chalice @ 0 followed by Chalice @ 1 like in Alexandres example with CoV or how a single CoV should dig you out of Chalice @ 0 + more of the "2cmc haters D&T is filled with". The sole fucking problem Alexandre has here is the sheer PILING VOLUME of hate and you promote spot removal which is also negated by a common Card they play turn 2. Continue pointing at the 1 creature D&T runs that Trygon can not totally negate to cheer at your CoV facing Chalice @ 1 or Thalia + Canininst or ... or ... or ...


@LDX:
my definately suggestion is CoV and/or E.T.
or you can play DoN plus artifacts hate like hurkils or serenity, not sure if Drop of honey would be a good idea... then dedicating 7 slots between hurkils and DoN.
in TES statistics are evindent as in no other deck in legacy, you need to assume that things sometimes will not work and if you assume that your oponent will not land 2 chalices before you win, the rest of statistics dictate that you will win on the rest of scenarios, that's why I suggest 4 CoV and I firmly believe so.

Bahamut could you give him your opinión if you are by here?

Apart, any news in regards of new strategy vs Miracles apart of full EtW?

Echoing Truth has the same fucking problem CoV has: Once there are two different permanants which give you a headache, the cards are totally worthless and even Disfigure would do a better job digging you slowly out of the hole than CoV, ET or Repeal.

How the fuck should one ET or CoV win versus Thalia + Canonist or Thalia + Chalice or Canonist + Chalice or other combinations which can hit you in the opponents first three turns?

[Pelikanudo]

Quite brilliant that this comes from the man playing 12 land rainbow manabase adressing a player with 14 land fetchland/Dual manabase. Thalia does not affect Trygon btw. so this point confuses me equally to your claim that EchoingTruth/Repeal vs Thalia is the same manacost.



"hatebears" like Canonist or Revokoker are also handled by Trygon, just saying. I still have no freaking clue how you want to win through Chalice @ 0 followed by Chalice @ 1 like in Alexandres example with CoV or how a single CoV should dig you out of Chalice @ 0 + more of the "2cmc haters D&T is filled with". The sole fucking problem Alexandre has here is the sheer PILING VOLUME of hate and you promote spot removal which is also negated by a common Card they play turn 2. Continue pointing at the 1 creature D&T runs that Trygon can not totally negate to cheer at your CoV facing Chalice @ 1 or Thalia + Canininst or ... or ... or ...



Echoing Truth has the same fucking problem CoV has: Once there are two different permanants which give you a headache, the cards are totally worthless and even Disfigure would do a better job digging you slowly out of the hole than CoV, ET or Repeal.

How the fuck should one ET or CoV win versus Thalia + Canonist or Thalia + Chalice or Canonist + Chalice or other combinations which can hit you in the opponents first three turns?

My Dear Lemnear

I agree that the possibilities of Chalice at 0 plus hatebear are the most common and the less common are Chalice at o plus Chaliec at 1, why? because you are allowed to run only 4 copies of Chalice YEAH!
I just say that I will assume I will loose vs Chalice at 0 followed by Chalice at 1 thats simple.
and I assume that if I play CoV and I draw it and my opp. plays a hatebear of 2CMC this will be done by turn 2 - D&T does not play Mox diamond AND in this scenario I just will be happy as:
a) I have CoV
b) I win before the 2CMC hatebear comes into play.
Simple.

If opponent has Chalice and Multiple 2CMC hatebears THEN the opp. will be idiot if does not play Chalice at 0, because Chalice at 1 is a F*** 2CMC!
IF opp, intends to play 2 2CMC haters (thalia or chalice at 1) THEN HE NEEDS to invest other turn more apart from 2nd turn to play the second hatebear! in this scenario AND if opp starts:
a) you CoV EOT to win next turn
b) you win before
Again Simple

NOTE: I recognized in the previous post Repeal was nonnsense
As I said likely the best option to win this D&T plus chalice is:
a) playing 4 DoN and 4 Hurkils
b) playing 4 CoV and assuming before statements.
c) other options are: Enginered explosives or ratched bomb (but can be hit by revoker)

a scenario of 2 2CMC haters in play is nonsense for me playing TES because I just will before the 2nd hatebear land... First 3 turns NO First 2 turns YES.

please let's stop this, I just wanted to give my opinion related LDX stated which can be agreed by you, Superman or batman or God or a jellyfish.

EDIT: Are you planning to come to the Bazar of Moxen Madrid? or any of you stormers?

[LDX]

I just say that I will assume I will loose vs Chalice at 0 followed by Chalice at 1 thats simple.

Admitting that is admitting I'll lose our next league season. I can't do that.

Let's also take the events you're suggesting: Chalice @ 0 + Hatebear, with the solution being Chain of Vapor.

He plays first, Chalice @ 0. I draw, I have Chain of Vapor in hand. Should be good, no? He plays Thalia. Now I can't cast my Chain of Vapor. I could play CoV right now, with Thalia on the stack, for what, his Chalice @ 0? He will play it right after. Now it's my second turn. I drop a land. I have to choose between a bounce on Thalia, or Chalice @ 0. In both cases, I can't play my 0 CMC: they will either get countered, or cost 1, and I don't have the mana to play them.

Turn 3, he drops Wasteland or Rishadan's Port. I can't win from there and will get beaten to death.

Canonist would be the other hate he can drop instead of Thalia, fine. If I use CoV on Chalice, I now can play my artifacts, but only one Ritual, and no engine spells. If I CoV Canonist, I can't play my artifacts and only have one mana left to cast Rituals>Engine>Win.

I would also like to remember you that Enlighten Tutors to grab Chalice, Canonist, or Ratchet Bomb in case of Goblins win.





Quite brilliant that this comes from the man playing 12 land rainbow manabase adressing a player with 14 land fetchland/Dual manabase. Thalia does not affect Trygon btw. so this point confuses me equally to your claim that EchoingTruth/Repeal vs Thalia is the same manacost.



"hatebears" like Canonist or Revokoker are also handled by Trygon, just saying. I still have no freaking clue how you want to win through Chalice @ 0 followed by Chalice @ 1 like in Alexandres example with CoV or how a single CoV should dig you out of Chalice @ 0 + more of the "2cmc haters D&T is filled with". The sole fucking problem Alexandre has here is the sheer PILING VOLUME of hate and you promote spot removal which is also negated by a common Card they play turn 2. Continue pointing at the 1 creature D&T runs that Trygon can not totally negate to cheer at your CoV facing Chalice @ 1 or Thalia + Canininst or ... or ... or ...



Echoing Truth has the same fucking problem CoV has: Once there are two different permanants which give you a headache, the cards are totally worthless and even Disfigure would do a better job digging you slowly out of the hole than CoV, ET or Repeal.

How the fuck should one ET or CoV win versus Thalia + Canonist or Thalia + Chalice or Canonist + Chalice or other combinations which can hit you in the opponents first three turns?

I feel understood. What a beautiful feeling.

[Lemnear]

My Dear Lemnear

I agree that the possibilities of Chalice at 0 plus hatebear are the most common and the less common are Chalice at o plus Chaliec at 1, why? because you are allowed to run only 4 copies of Chalice YEAH!

doesn't this obvious fact alone render ET a bad option?


I just say that I will assume I will loose vs Chalice at 0 followed by Chalice at 1 thats simple.

In a GP, MKM Tour or the like I would totally agree and just go sideboarding for game two like I would with runn-runna SDT + CB before my opponent really knkws what he/she faces, but we talk about a LOCAL event series with a shitload of "preboarded" hate where you basically face the same opponents every week and you can't just accept those auto-losses every week in a 4-round event. This is not getting Alexandre anywhere and thats the whole context of potential solutions we discuss here and I think we should absolutely stick to the given scenario of making progress in that local environment.


and I assume that if I play CoV and I draw it and my opp. plays a hatebear of 2CMC this will be done by turn 2 - D&T does not play Mox diamond AND in this scenario I just will be happy as:
a) I have CoV
b) I win before the 2CMC hatebear comes into play.
Simple.

Yeah, because the deck has ALWAYS the turn 1 kill in hand so why play even cantrips hahahaha. I know where you are coming from, but given 10 goblin tokens are far from a solid winoption against D&T, limiting possible T1 playlines even further not to talk about games on the draw. Again: We are not talking about a random encounter, but a weekly one. Banking on sheer nut draws each week is no option especially as the local metagame could get the idea to play MindbreakTrap and at this point the whole idea of "winning turn 1" is even more ridiculous.


If opponent has Chalice and Multiple 2CMC hatebears THEN the opp. will be idiot if does not play Chalice at 0, because Chalice at 1 is a F*** 2CMC!

obvious again. Your solution of "win turn 1 all the time" is still none I would bank on unless I go all the way and play Belcher. The task here is to find solutions if 2+ if these permanents resolve and personally, I don't see it in trading 1-for-1


IF opp, intends to play 2 2CMC haters (thalia or chalice at 1) THEN HE NEEDS to invest other turn more apart from 2nd turn to play the second hatebear! in this scenario AND if opp starts:
a) you CoV EOT to win next turn
b) you win before
Again Simple

TL;DR: Play Belcher and not TES


NOTE: I recognized in the previous post Repeal was nonnsense
As I said likely the best option to win this D&T plus chalice is:
a) playing 4 DoN and 4 Hurkils
b) playing 4 CoV and assuming before statements.
c) other options are: Enginered explosives or ratched bomb (but can be hit by revoker)

Explosives is a card I really like in combination with Ad Nauseam, but that card is really expensive, if you plan to use it to get rid of Thalia. The solution a) makes me question if you even plan to beat decks like Miracles or random stuff at all, if you dedicate your whole open sideboard to this matchup in a tournament environment where also the other players prepare their 75 to beat Alexandre.


a scenario of 2 2CMC haters in play is nonsense for me playing TES because I just will before the 2nd hatebear land... First 3 turns NO First 2 turns YES.

If you want to just drop your hand T1 play Belcher or 4 EtWs in your 75 (active) instead of a shittload of narrow solutions (reactive) in SB


EDIT: Are you planning to come to the Bazar of Moxen Madrid? or any of you stormers?

Looks like it will kinda collide with a wedding in Vienna (few days later) as I can't take a whole week off work, but I wish you and all stormers attending the best and much fun :)


Admitting that is admitting I'll lose our next league season. I can't do that.

Let's also take the events you're suggesting: Chalice @ 0 + Hatebear, with the solution being Chain of Vapor.

He plays first, Chalice @ 0. I draw, I have Chain of Vapor in hand. Should be good, no? He plays Thalia. Now I can't cast my Chain of Vapor. I could play CoV right now, with Thalia on the stack, for what, his Chalice @ 0? He will play it right after. Now it's my second turn. I drop a land. I have to choose between a bounce on Thalia, or Chalice @ 0. In both cases, I can't play my 0 CMC: they will either get countered, or cost 1, and I don't have the mana to play them.

Turn 3, he drops Wasteland or Rishadan's Port. I can't win from there and will get beaten to death.

Canonist would be the other hate he can drop instead of Thalia, fine. If I use CoV on Chalice, I now can play my artifacts, but only one Ritual, and no engine spells. If I CoV Canonist, I can't play my artifacts and only have one mana left to cast Rituals>Engine>Win.

I would also like to remember you that Enlighten Tutors to grab Chalice, Canonist, or Ratchet Bomb in case of Goblins win.

More or less the matter explained that we discuss here :)


I feel understood. What a beautiful feeling.

Well, its not the first time we discuss the matter and I am well aware of the scenario as of now. In essence, I doubt you will find solutions in trading 1-for-1

[Pelikanudo]

Well, regarding this specific scenario that LDX has at his locals, the unique solution to beeing prepared vs opp. which have dedicated hate to TES is the following:

Play a deck which is opposite to TES lets say Maverick, I would then play Maverick the next 2 tournaments and the 3rd then play TES, maybe the following sequence is correct:
Play MAverick, Play MAverick, Play TES, Play TES, and so on.

if still he wants to play TES - I would suggest instead ANT because ANT has a full of 15 side slots as opposite to TES which has 7 or likes.

In deed I do not expect to win a tournament if I face so much hate...
maybe DDFT is your deck in here, likely this deck is the best storm deck to face hate, I remember when I won torunaments with this trhough a Leyline, Canonist and trini!

Side card options, apart of mentioned:
Drop of Honey, Distopya, the Enchantment that phases out a type of permanents, maybe some goblins that destroy artifact, or DoN plus another kind of Artifact destroyer that can be fetched via E.Tutor, Grim lavamancer maybe? Darkblast?
I just throw ideas...

[Lemnear]

Well, regarding this specific scenario that LDX has at his locals, the unique solution to beeing prepared vs opp. which have dedicated hate to TES is the following:

Play a deck which is opposite to TES lets say Maverick, I would then play Maverick the next 2 tournaments and the 3rd then play TES, maybe the following sequence is correct:
Play MAverick, Play MAverick, Play TES, Play TES, and so on.

Indeed a common method to react to inbreed tournaments.


if still he wants to play TES - I would suggest instead ANT because ANT has a full of 15 side slots as opposite to TES which has 7 or likes.

I would agree if the meta would (literally) stifle his decks mana development or if the improved manabase/-acceleration would get him around stuff which presents problems. I think this particular meta (judging from his last seasons reports) is not much softer to ANT than to TES. If his meta was stuffed with Daze/Wasteland/Delver, I would immediately jump ship.


In deed I do not expect to win a tournament if I face so much hate...
maybe DDFT is your deck in here, likely this deck is the best storm deck to face hate, I remember when I won torunaments with this trhough a Leyline, Canonist and trini!

Doomsday has its own problems of being a 3-card combo deck in an age where 1-/2-card combos are the norm. The only 3-card combo deck which saw play in the last years is Reanimator because its much faster than Doomsday.


Side card options, apart of mentioned:
Drop of Honey, Distopya, the Enchantment that phases out a type of permanents, maybe some goblins that destroy artifact, or DoN plus another kind of Artifact destroyer that can be fetched via E.Tutor, Grim lavamancer maybe? Darkblast?
I just throw ideas...

Talking about Teferis Realm I guess? If it wasn't practially uncastable vs Thalia, I would have taken more of a testing with this one.

[ManCharm]

Y'all really should consider blocking him. I've followed this thread for years and haven't missed him tbh

[Bryant Cook]

Any storm pilots going to Philly here?

[mistercakes]

Any storm pilots going to Philly here?

may show up, but don't plan on playing in main event. i have your deck sleeved up though. (too rusty to throw away games w/ doomsday)

[Final Fortune]

Posting this here since his inbox is full


Hi...

Well I'll go to the BOM and I'd like you to give me your strategy to handle miracles,

please let me know:
a) the 75 you'd play
b) the Side for both On the play and on the draw
c) HowToSide with +x and -x

I've been trying several approaches but noone convices me...

the hell of miracles, you cant imagine how I hate this match up...

I'm using the standard 75 but with a 2nd Volcanic Island instead of a Badlands and Thoughtseize instead of Duress in the MD, in the SB I'd have 4 Abrupt Decay/1 Bayou and I generally bring in the Duress and Pyroblast as well. I just board out the Chrome Mox and the Ponder without any deviation on the play/draw, SBing out Empty the Warrens for Tendrils of Agony is debateable tho' as I've been keeping in a copy of Chrome Mox/Ponder and relying on Pyroblast to deal with Meddling Mage on Burning Wish instead. It keeps Ad Nauseam flips uniform to 2 or less damage and people don't really name Burning Wish and/or know you SBed out your kill conditions so they rarely try to take advantage of it.

My SB is something like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Massacre
1 Void Snare
1 Duress
1 Pyroblast
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou

Principally, I think Bryant and I agree on almost the entire deck, we're like 3 cards off in our 75s and those cards are functionally equivalent. I don't really know a better way to SB vs Miracles, my guess is the worse that matchup is the more you should be inclined to cut the 3rd Chrome Mox for the 7th discard MD and try playing without a kill condition post-board to save space. The matchup just sucks, it's a part of Storm.

Edit: I am kind of surprised tho' that people are still using Duress in the MD over Thoughtseize, especially if they are SBing Thoughtseize as Vendilion Clique isn't very popular and if you are wishing for discard vs aggro-control you need to conserve life. But eh, it's not a big deal.

[Lemnear]

Got the same PM, but did not see reason to write an essay based on how similar topics went in the last years.

Fortune, I still have no idea why someone should play MB Thoughtseize in a field full of Storm, Miracles and Delver

[Bryant Cook]

Principally, I think Bryant and I agree on almost the entire deck, we're like 3 cards off in our 75s and those cards are functionally equivalent. I don't really know a better way to SB vs Miracles, my guess is the worse that matchup is the more you should be inclined to cut the 3rd Chrome Mox for the 7th discard MD and try playing without a kill condition post-board to save space. The matchup just sucks, it's a part of Storm.

Edit: I am kind of surprised tho' that people are still using Duress in the MD over Thoughtseize, especially if they are SBing Thoughtseize as Vendilion Clique isn't very popular and if you are wishing for discard vs aggro-control you need to conserve life. But eh, it's not a big deal.

Thoughtseize is really for decks like Death & Taxes and combo, not Wishing for against aggro-control. The issue in that match-up is every hit from Delver of Secrets becomes a lot more meaningful when you're providing multiple free shocks (Seize and Probe) while making Ad Nauseam worse. There gets to a point where Empty the Warrens is no longer relevant and your back is up against a wall because of the life loss.

[Final Fortune]

I still see enough D&T and other brews to make having the choice of discarding creatures relevant, if you don't then play Duress instead. As far as SB Thoughtseize not being there to wish for, I understand it isn't meant for that purpose but it doesn't mean that it can't be used that way, sometimes you just get stuck having to discard the last Force of Will in their hand in order to go off and adding life loss on top of tempo loss is where I find it to be most problematic (So SB Thoughtseize is worse than SB Duress at extending its purpose to wishable disruption). As far as losing games to the Shock from the MD Thoughtseize, I agree all of the damage adds up but I don't believe I've lost more games because of it than not being able to discard a creature (I keep track and I would use Duress otherwise, as I have had to in the past). I think it just depends on how linear your meta is, I see a lot of homebrew online, so if all you see is Miracles, Delver, Storm IRL then I probably wouldn't play it and just use a couple of Chain of Vapour in the SB over the extra Empty the Warrens.

Also, I kind of need Thoughtseize MD in order to be able to play Pyroblast in the SB, otherwise there isn't enough space to be able to play without Tendrils of Agony vs Miracles and not be dead to Meddling Mage on Burning Wish, so I guess it depends on wether or not Pyroblast is worth it as well (it's similar to MDing the Bayou in that way, even if it's strictly sub-optimal to Duress the same way Bayou is to any other land then at least it frees up SB space by allowing you to cut Chain of Vapour altogether)

Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, @Bryant what made you change your mind on extra copies of Empty the Warrens and what are you using it against right now?

[Bryant Cook]

I still see enough D&T and other brews to make having the choice of discarding creatures relevant, if you don't then play Duress instead. As far as SB Thoughtseize not being there to wish for, I understand it isn't meant for that purpose but it doesn't mean that it can't be used that way, sometimes you just get stuck having to discard the last Force of Will in their hand in order to go off and adding life loss on top of tempo loss is where I find it to be most problematic (So SB Thoughtseize is worse than SB Duress at extending its purpose to wishable disruption). As far as losing games to the Shock from the MD Thoughtseize, I agree all of the damage adds up but I don't believe I've lost more games because of it than not being able to discard a creature (I keep track and I would use Duress otherwise, as I have had to in the past). I think it just depends on how linear your meta is, I see a lot of homebrew online, so if all you see is Miracles, Delver, Storm IRL then I probably wouldn't play it and just use a couple of Chain of Vapour in the SB over the extra Empty the Warrens.

Against Tempo, not to be wished for against Tempo. The life loss is a real issue there, by all means, if that particular game needs a 3 mana discard spell (some do) - go for it. But I think we're just splitting hairs at this point.


Also, I kind of need Thoughtseize MD in order to be able to play Pyroblast in the SB, otherwise there isn't enough space to be able to play without Tendrils of Agony vs Miracles and not be dead to Meddling Mage on Burning Wish, so I guess it depends on wether or not Pyroblast is worth it as well (it's similar to MDing the Bayou in that way, even if it's strictly sub-optimal to Duress the same way Bayou is to any other land then at least it frees up SB space by allowing you to cut Chain of Vapour altogether)

I'm fine with this, my slot is Seize as it gets use against Miracles AND storm, D&T, etc. I think it just has more purpose, but that said, you're doing it MD to save slots. You just give up more against fast decks and tempo in my opinion.


Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, @Bryant what made you change your mind on extra copies of Empty the Warrens and what are you using it against right now?

I'm not playing multiple ETW due to sideboard space, if I was, I would be playing two. I found it to be the sweet spot between "hurts my Ad Nauseams too much" and "I see them enough". For more info, I've talked about it in the last few articles on the website.

[Pelikanudo]

@Final Fortune:

Thanks... sometime ago I switched to also 4 A.D. however I still loose to miracles...

But the last tornament I lost was because of overload by c.b. - they just draw them more oftenthan we Decays...

After some tests before that torunament finally I decided that1 A.Veils plus 4Decays was the less worse option...

After some testing I just focused on beeing quicker by adding a 2nd A.Nauseam, but this only Works for games were you start AND planned to T.Seize main and Side.... but still not conviced.

Now the combnation I've been testing is 1of or 2 of Extirpate, because this saves me from multiple c.b. AND Sensiens triggers.

I remember when Lemnear said that MultiEtW plan is the KEY vs Miracles - They just hadn't won that match up vs miracles - they leave terminus or E.E. or pyroclasm or Staticaster...

I've been thinking in adding Surgical instead of Extirpate but the unique reason would be to duress and at the same time Surgical... I really dont know how relevant wold be this... but beeing able to just stop the stack and beeig uncounterable seems better for me...

As said, I still dont have a solid plan vs Miracles...

By the moment I'm thinking in +2 extripate +4 decays +1 bayou = -3C.M., -1EtW, -3 Ponder....
my feeling is that in orderto win miracles you need to fight fire with fire - likely I owuld win this match up with DDFT....

[Final Fortune]

I don't think the matchup is worth going into contortions over, Autumn's Veil over Xantid Swarm is a good try tho', you just have to accept that Storm is going to have an unfavourable matchup vs control in exchange for being unfair vs anything that isn't playing Islands. More than anything, I think it's about recognizing your opportunities to win a bad matchup and taking them with they appear.

[Lemnear]

After some tests before that torunament finally I decided that 1 A.Veils plus 4Decays was the less worse option...

After some testing I just focused on beeing quicker by adding a 2nd A.Nauseam...


I remember when Lemnear said that MultiEtW plan is the KEY vs Miracles - They just hadn't won that match up vs miracles - they leave terminus or E.E. or pyroclasm or Staticaster...

"they CAN have removal" is the most jarring argument here as you act that they run 8+ sweepers postboard while ALSO being able to fight back plan A of ramping into a ToA. Its atrocious that you keep shooting down approaches people championed in ANT to justify your Autumns Veil bullshit.

[Lemnear]

After some tests before that torunament finally I decided that 1 A.Veils plus 4Decays was the less worse option...

After some testing I just focused on beeing quicker by adding a 2nd A.Nauseam...

Thats why i did not bother to write about builds/boards. Its always the same....


I remember when Lemnear said that MultiEtW plan is the KEY vs Miracles - They just hadn't won that match up vs miracles - they leave terminus or E.E. or pyroclasm or Staticaster...

"they CAN have removal" is the most jarring argument here as you act that they run 8+ sweepers postboard while ALSO being able to fight back plan A of ramping into a ToA. Its atrocious that you keep shooting down approaches people championed in ANT to justify your Autumns Veil bullshit.

[Bryant Cook]

NEW TES MAILBOX -- http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-7/

[Final Fortune]

Thats why i did not bother to write about builds/boards. Its always the same....



"they CAN have removal" is the most jarring argument here as you act that they run 8+ sweepers postboard while ALSO being able to fight back plan A of ramping into a ToA. Its atrocious that you keep shooting down approaches people championed in ANT to justify your Autumns Veil bullshit.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Autumn's Veil, I was using it instead of Silence when we were playing Gemstone Mines because I could cast it off of Bayou and it was just as strong then vs Islands as it would be now. As for Empty the Warrens and Xantid Swarm, I think they're both a really hit or miss strategy vs Miracles depending on whether or not they SB out their removal, SB in more removal or SB in Flusterstorms, so while I don't think it's right to dismiss them out of hand I do think it's legitimate to question whether or not they should be your default strategy. Personally, I tend to avoid playing with them on the draw or in game 2 and prefer to "hail marry" them for game 3 instead of having static post-board plans since I think people are more inclined to SB out removal game 3 after not seeing Empty and Swarm than game 2.

The cards are pretty high variance, I love Empty to death but even I'm not really comfortable betting on it in tournament play.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi all I'll relate my experience at the BOM

I was able to get a 5-2 Loosing uniquely vs 2 Eldrazi Decks both playing 4 Thorn and 4 Chalice main... that was sad..
the rest of the match ups were 2 BUG - tempo and control, 1 ANT, 1 Painters, 1 miracles, and the last match up - If I won and was relatively easy I had topeighted... the guy was a known nice boy which I usually win. and really was bad luck as I didnt know the deck he was on..., In 1st game - I just was going to combo and he plays an unexpected Venser after I took 2 B.S. with C.T. he played senseis...., the 2nd game I took 1 fluster and he draws the 2nd in the critical moment, he had senseis so I didnt want to pass the turn because I didnt board in any decay or extirpate knowing he was going to play at least 3 flusters - he finally had another in hand.

NOTES:
Agains Miracles just was absurd... the 1st game happens as always - he just don't know what I am on and keeps a bad hand
the 2nd game he starts and keeps a hand with 2 c.b. and 1 c.spell I just G.P. and next B.S. and didnt see therapy and either decays - I had 4 so I need to go for Empty - they won me the games. but he told me that he left 4 terminus and staticaster... bad luck for him...

Well, Eldrazi is now a deck to have in mind - at least in the BOM there were a good number of Eldrazis deck - I faced 2 in my 8 rounds...
and now I need a strategy vs them...

This was the list and how I sided, but I didnt have any stragegy vs them and either didn't expect to face many...:



4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

2 Misty R.
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Gemstones

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 duress
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Void snare

My approach both on the play and on the draw was:

+4 Decay, +1 Duress, + 1T.Seize +1Bayou
-4 Ponder -3 C.Therapy

1. I just preferred Duress vs C.Therapy to just hit the spells I know which are both Thorn and Chalice - sure in case I start...
2. I'm not sure which card is better about C.T. vs Duress as sure you want to take out Thorn and Chalice, but the critters they play are also a good target well paired with G.P. they also tend to side Trini and Revoker and warping...
3. My experience is that this deck is even worse pairing than MUD as the position they take in the board is just blazing fast, they play the Eldrazi mimic which is just the nuts and they can make you 8 to 10 damage in 2nd turn... depending if they play the Reality smasher or the shitty T Knot Seer... Therefore apart of trying to avoid Throns, Chalice and Trinis... you need to deal with the fact that by turn 5 you are death AND that Ad Nausem will be worse once you reach te 3rd turn. Even Goblins may be not enough if you play them around 3rd or 4th turn...
4. In the 4 match ups I fought, I just won 1 of them by playing EtW in the 1st turn - the others 3 was like starting them and chalice or thorn in 1st turn and the other was just because they killed me in 4th turn starting them and I just wasn't able to win before - I needed to decay a f*** mimic to stay at 1 life...
5. The fact I play TES is better than playing ANT, as we are just faster - I found Rodrigo had a lot of luck not facing Eldrazis until the top 8.... the hell of luck he has...

Well now I want to propose options to handle the match up...
1. what is better vs this C.T. or Duress? for me Duress.
2. I'm thinking in switching the manabase to play 13 lands - 2V.I. 2 USea 8 fetches and 1 badlands to handle pulverize in the side - what do you think?
3. related to the side, I think the best card could be hurkils recall, what do you think? serenity is an option but we would need to use White...
4 having 14 lands vs this is better tan having 13...

a proposed side:

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 duress
SB: 1 Void snare
SB: 3 Hurkils
SB: 1 pulverize

anyway, looking how irrelevant is beeing A.D. vsmiracles I'm still deciding if to take out this card and definately Green... sure you want them vs lands and like but we have now Hurkils...

Opinions?

[Bryant Cook]

http://www.theepicstorm.com/storming-into-philadelphia-pa-02262016-aftermath/

[Final Fortune]

I think as aggro-prison becomes more popular, having more discard as opposed to Chrome Mox and aggressively fetching for Swamp into discard is going to be a bigger deal. Either that or just going balls to the walls with acceleration and Empty the Warrens on the play, as I find that match to be really coin flippy.

I'm leaning towards cutting a Chrome Mox tho', just because it reduces the impact of Chalice of the Void on the draw and improves the Miracles match up.

[Lemnear]

I think as aggro-prison becomes more popular, having more discard as opposed to Chrome Mox and aggressively fetching for Swamp into discard is going to be a bigger deal. Either that or just going balls to the walls with acceleration and Empty the Warrens on the play, as I find that match to be really coin flippy.

I'm leaning towards cutting a Chrome Mox tho', just because it reduces the impact of Chalice of the Void on the draw and improves the Miracles match up.

I think it's a ridiculous suicidal plan to rely on the diceroll and T1 discard/combo to stand a chance against their Turn 1 Chalice/Thorn/SphereOfResistance/etc.

[Final Fortune]

I think it's a ridiculous suicidal plan to rely on the diceroll and T1 discard/combo to stand a chance against their Turn 1 Chalice/Thorn/SphereOfResistance/etc.

Your hyperbole is getting really old, its not a MD combination - 3 Duress 2 Chrome Mox - or a SB combination - 3 Empty the Warrens - that hasn't already been tried before in the metagame or against D&T. The Belcher plan aside, nothing is preventing you from SBing in removal or adjusting your strategy on the play/draw as well. Regardless, I think the deck needs to change a bit to take aggro prison into account, and I'm pretty sure Trygon Predator isn't fast enough.

[Lemnear]

Your hyperbole is getting really old, its not a MD combination - 3 Duress 2 Chrome Mox - or a SB combination - 3 Empty the Warrens - that hasn't already been tried before in the metagame or against D&T. The Belcher plan aside, nothing is preventing you from SBing in removal or adjusting your strategy on the play/draw as well. Regardless, I think the deck needs to change a bit to take aggro prison into account, and I'm pretty sure Trygon Predator isn't fast enough.

We agree here, that Trygon isn't going to cut it speedwise

[Pelikanudo]

I think as aggro-prison becomes more popular, having more discard as opposed to Chrome Mox and aggressively fetching for Swamp into discard is going to be a bigger deal. Either that or just going balls to the walls with acceleration and Empty the Warrens on the play, as I find that match to be really coin flippy.

I'm leaning towards cutting a Chrome Mox tho', just because it reduces the impact of Chalice of the Void on the draw and improves the Miracles match up.

While I do agree that a turn 1 into discard is the way to go vs these decks OR just win, I do not think taking out 3rd C.M. is going to make the match up better.
As opposite to lets say Merfolk, they will tend to play Chalice at 1 agains us as they play 8 A.Tombs and they know is effective against us instead of Chalice at 0,sure unless they have both cards in hand...
I'm also thinking in switching to 1 swamp in base taking out 3rd duress...

I have several thinkings agains this new archetype...
1. I finally discarded the idea of playing 1 pulverize in side - I do not think it is worth as you'll need to play B.W. and a lot of Volcanic Badlands wich will be wastelanded...
2. likely the best card vs them is Ingot chewer as it is a 1 Mana cost against both thorn and chalice. BUT the sad thing about this is that is not good with A.N., on the other side, we could just take out this for 2nd and 3rd games and go into the EtW route OR just play any kind of ANT/TNT build
3. I really dont know how good is A.D vs them as seems just slow,
4. I've been thinking in taking out all of the decays and just play some number of hurkils or I.Chewer... because of the irrelenvance of Decay vs Miracles for me...
5. I really think that duress is better tan C.T. and maybe because can be better vs miracles I've thouth in withicng te number of Duress vs C.T. BUT I just love C.T. and really do notthink I will decrease the number of C.T.
6. the deck is just fast, therefore the EtW or A.N. route seems bad once we reach the 3rd turn... likely from this turn the PiF route is the best think, there can happend that they harm themselves with A.Tomb, and then Natural tendris can be a way...


What I'll do by the moment is just adding 1 hurkils or I.C. to my side... however maybe I switch to a TNT like build, in here I'll be slower but a 2 basic mana base and possibility of playing several inglots....

Well just thoughts..

EDIT: Question: with a Thorn of Amethist and a Chalice at 1 in play, Shattering Spree, in order to destroy both artifacts need to be casted by 1RRR right?

.

[Bryant Cook]

AJ Kerrigan​'s first article for theepicstorm.com:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/storming-rise-eldrazi/

[Patrunkenphat7]

AJ Kerrigan​'s first article for theepicstorm.com:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/storming-rise-eldrazi/

Great article! I read Caleb's article after this, and I had no idea he tried TES. I searched his lists on SCG and didn't see any TES top 8s but saw that he got 2nd at a Classic with ANT in January. Did he switch back to ANT? If so I would love to hear a follow-up from him. Thanks for the content.

[Bryant Cook]

Great article! I read Caleb's article after this, and I had no idea he tried TES. I searched his lists on SCG and didn't see any TES top 8s but saw that he got 2nd at a Classic with ANT in January. Did he switch back to ANT? If so I would love to hear a follow-up from him. Thanks for the content.

He was testing it toward the end of Dig Through Time, once that got the axe he switched back to ANT. The ability to go under DTT was very crucial, I think we're back to a similar metagame with Eldrazi.

If you're looking for more in-depth based discussion, I would recommend facebook messaging him. He's typically fairly quick to respond.

[Final Fortune]

While I do agree that a turn 1 into discard is the way to go vs these decks OR just win, I do not think taking out 3rd C.M. is going to make the match up better.
As opposite to lets say Merfolk, they will tend to play Chalice at 1 agains us as they play 8 A.Tombs and they know is effective against us instead of Chalice at 0,sure unless they have both cards in hand...
I'm also thinking in switching to 1 swamp in base taking out 3rd duress...

I have several thinkings agains this new archetype...
1. I finally discarded the idea of playing 1 pulverize in side - I do not think it is worth as you'll need to play B.W. and a lot of Volcanic Badlands wich will be wastelanded...
2. likely the best card vs them is Ingot chewer as it is a 1 Mana cost against both thorn and chalice. BUT the sad thing about this is that is not good with A.N., on the other side, we could just take out this for 2nd and 3rd games and go into the EtW route OR just play any kind of ANT/TNT build
3. I really dont know how good is A.D vs them as seems just slow,
4. I've been thinking in taking out all of the decays and just play some number of hurkils or I.Chewer... because of the irrelenvance of Decay vs Miracles for me...
5. I really think that duress is better tan C.T. and maybe because can be better vs miracles I've thouth in withicng te number of Duress vs C.T. BUT I just love C.T. and really do notthink I will decrease the number of C.T.
6. the deck is just fast, therefore the EtW or A.N. route seems bad once we reach the 3rd turn... likely from this turn the PiF route is the best think, there can happend that they harm themselves with A.Tomb, and then Natural tendris can be a way...


What I'll do by the moment is just adding 1 hurkils or I.C. to my side... however maybe I switch to a TNT like build, in here I'll be slower but a 2 basic mana base and possibility of playing several inglots....

Well just thoughts..

EDIT: Question: with a Thorn of Amethist and a Chalice at 1 in play, Shattering Spree, in order to destroy both artifacts need to be casted by 1RRR right?

.

What's good about the Eldrazi decks taking over the "budget aggro" role from Death&Taxes is that it has shifted the permanent based hate away from creatures and towards artifacts, so the number of discard and the Swamp become more important. Since I've moved back from Thoughtseize to Duress, I find the 3rd Chrome Mox to be redundant and I'm experimenting with cutting Chrome Mox altogether again for 2 Cabal Ritual, 1 Bayou and replacing the MD Empty the Warrens with the 3rd Duress.

I wouldn't get hung up making changes to the mana base and the acceleration, with Chalice becoming a MD consideration I think cutting down on the number of 0cc artificats makes sense. And you're kind of underestimating how often they cast Chalice for 0, it's not like they get Tomb/City openings every game.

[Bryant Cook]

August marks ten years of The EPIC Storm, I'm beginning to feel a little reminiscent of the last ten years: http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-memories/

[d0nkey]

Hm..

Harness the Storm - 2r
Enchantment
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell from your hand,
you may cast target card with the same name as that spell from
your graveyard. (You still pay its costs.)


Very interesting...... more so for modern than legacy but this is still a very interesting card

[d0nkey]

August marks ten years of The EPIC Storm, I'm beginning to feel a little reminiscent of the last ten years: http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-memories/

For what it's worth, I wish you would keep playing the Grapeshot. In my experience, people can get a little salty when you start to storm off on them... a single dose of Grapeshot tends to cure that right up.

[Izor]

Behold the Beyond 5BB

Sorcery

Discard your hand. Search your library for three cards and put those cards into your hand. Then shuffle your library.


Interesting card. If it was just a little cheaper, I'd think it could be a powerful wish target.

[Asthereal]

Behold the Beyond 5BB

Sorcery

Discard your hand. Search your library for three cards and put those cards into your hand. Then shuffle your library.


Interesting card. If it was just a little cheaper, I'd think it could be a powerful wish target.
If it were cheaper, I'd probably run it instead of Ad Nauseam. :tongue:
But as is, CMC7 is probably too steap to run this in the TES wish board.
My TNT (Wish ANT) list makes more mana though. I'll try it in that.

[Ronald Deuce]

My TNT (Wish ANT) list makes more mana though. I'll try it in that.

Would you mind sharing that list? I've been playing a lot of AnT lately and I'm interested in trying TES or a hybrid list just to see how it plays. If you've got any guidelines or observations about how it plays compared with AnT and TES, I'd be interested to hear them. Thanks in advance!

[Pelikanudo]

What's good about the Eldrazi decks taking over the "budget aggro" role from Death&Taxes is that it has shifted the permanent based hate away from creatures and towards artifacts, so the number of discard and the Swamp become more important.
.
well thats the good thing... the bad thing is that they land thir threats 1 turn earlier... I've always hated playing such non polivalent land in TES, but hey! that's me... I see however the logic behind swamp and discard.



Since I've moved back from Thoughtseize to Duress, I find the 3rd Chrome Mox to be redundant and I'm experimenting with cutting Chrome Mox altogether again for 2 Cabal Ritual, 1 Bayou and replacing the MD Empty the Warrens with the 3rd Duress.
.

there is no sense in experimenting with such changes... you'll have total 14 lands no EtW and no Pif-Tendirls Engine main. and your A.N will become worse... I experimenting this long time before and just sucks... you need synergy with the cards you play in main - (A.N. AND C.M.) OR (PiF and C.R. and ToA) OR (EtW AND alternative win con for 2nd and 3rd games)

my last TNT build has 14 lands - among them 2 basics and I put back tropical in the side and replacing this with 1 RoF. this is The Unique flexible Slot, in Timo was C.M. I put tropical and now 1 RoF seems the correct one to me...



I wouldn't get hung up making changes to the mana base and the acceleration, with Chalice becoming a MD consideration I think cutting down on the number of 0cc artificats makes sense. And you're kind of underestimating how often they cast Chalice for 0, it's not like they get Tomb/City openings every game.

Well, you asume that more often than not they'll play Chalice at 0 vs us, this is where - I believe we differ - I think more often than not they'll play chalice at 1 vs us In 1st games. Therefore all the rest of conclusions derived are in different position than me... Ex.: For me C.M. becomes better then... Even n 2nd and 3rd game AND if they do not have Tomb/City/Mox they will prefer to play at 1 because avoids D.R. AND RoF and all discard, cantrips...- see the Eldrazi thread...

Question: Do you think playing 1 S.Spree is worth? maybe I took my extirpate and put in a couple of CoV also...

Apart, regarding Behold the Beyond:

Sure in TES and ANT is nonsense and I evaluated this in TNT:
1) Comparing to D.P.: it is a 9 mana cost if you plan to grab A.N. --> with BB you'll need total 10 mana to grab A.N.
2) if you want a PiF engine you are exact in the same position as BB --> with BB the best you can do is 11 mana(among them R) to grab D.R., C.R, PiF... Other option is 9 mana just grabbing LED LED and Pif but again you'll need D.R., D.R., C.R. in G.Y. as mínimum... Other options even involves having Cantrips in hand to make some tricks - like: D.R.->C.R.->LED->B.W.-> BB-> to LED,LED, I.T. (having B.S. or G.P.)

honestly in 1) and 2) D.P.is just better... for me it is totally discarded even in TNT build.
@Asthereal: If I'm allowed - my suggestion is to just don't even try it in TNT, EDIT: well this is theory but maybe the behaviour of the card is more like DD as the cards you pcik may depend on the cards you already have... to enjoy I'll try it... but the fact is that it is redundant... I before played 1 G.T. now 1 D.P.


EDIT: I've been having a look in Vinage decks searching for responses vs Eldrazi - What do you think about Viashino Heretic vs Eldrazi? In vintage they play mainly I.C. or Serenity and some number of hurkils.
what I like from this vs Trygon is a) its mana cost is easier to enable and 2) makes damage so that the opp. can be dead by natural tendrils, anyways I believe the 3 before commented are just betteroptions...

[Bryant Cook]

Took 2nd at an Eternal Extravaganza Satellite event for EE4. Report to follow this week.

[Lemnear]

there is no sense in experimenting with such changes... you'll have total 14 lands no EtW and no Pif-Tendirls Engine main. and your A.N will become worse... I experimenting this long time before and just sucks... you need synergy with the cards you play in main - (A.N. AND C.M.) OR (PiF and C.R. and ToA) OR (EtW AND alternative win con for 2nd and 3rd games)

How the fuck does AN get "worse" if you don't have to stop flipping at 4 life and two more rituals to float mana into AN? This is the exact same discussion we had ~9 months ago when I played 0 moxen and 10 Rituals in Paris.

Please fucking stop claiming you actually tried this. You paired the CabalRituals with not only less lands than proposed, but also with goldlands rather than fetches which would fuel t.hold.


Well, you asume that more often than not they'll play Chalice at 0 vs us, this is where - I believe we differ - I think more often than not they'll play chalice at 1 vs us In 1st games. Therefore all the rest of conclusions derived are in different position than me... Ex.: For me C.M. becomes better then... Even n 2nd and 3rd game AND if they do not have Tomb/City/Mox they will prefer to play at 1 because avoids D.R. AND RoF and all discard, cantrips...- see the Eldrazi thread...

Keep discussing the advantages of ChromeMox and dodging the question of how you wanna power out your combo, if all your Rituals and shit gets stuck in Chalice

[Bryant Cook]

Tournament report from this past weekend: http://www.theepicstorm.com/storming-into-ee4-satellite-03192016-2nd/

[Mapson]

Bryant, three comments on the report.

1.) 69 players...still way under expected but more than 59
2.) The delver, sylvan library, bob. I was one of the judges watching. You saw it wrong.
3.) Typo on rd 4 opponent's last name.

Edit: Also, congrats on another strong finish.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant, three comments on the report.

1.) 69 players...still way under expected but more than 59
2.) The delver, sylvan library, bob. I was one of the judges watching. You saw it wrong.
3.) Typo on rd 4 opponent's last name.

Edit: Also, congrats on another strong finish.

1.) Wouldn't 69 players be an additional round then? 59 is below the 64 cut off. Found this: http://www.wizards.com/dci/downloads/swiss_pairings.pdf
2.) I'm pretty sure I know what I saw. They were playing very quickly but he 100% did Dark Confidant after the Library trigger. (I don't think there was anything malicious there, just two people trying to finish before time.)
3.) I copied it from the Planeswalker site, if it's wrong, it's wrong there as well.

EDIT: Thank you.
EDIT 2: Added link for rounds.

[Mapson]

1.) Wouldn't 69 players be an additional round then? 59 is below the 64 cut off. Found this: http://www.wizards.com/dci/downloads/swiss_pairings.pdf
2.) I'm pretty sure I know what I saw. They were playing very quickly but he 100% did Dark Confidant after the Library trigger. (I don't think there was anything malicious there, just two people trying to finish before time.)
3.) I copied it from the Planeswalker site, if it's wrong, it's wrong there as well.

EDIT: Thank you.
EDIT 2: Added link for rounds.

1. yes. misread my notes. writing my own report and noticed that too.
2. I know it looks bad for me to try to say I definitely saw it after getting the number of players wrong but I was making sure to pay extra attention to what was getting revealed and making sure he did things in the proper order

EDIT
also, either way, in future, if you see something like that, please bring it to the attention of the judges so they can correct it, if it's not being done correctly.

[Asthereal]

Would you mind sharing that list? I've been playing a lot of AnT lately and I'm interested in trying TES or a hybrid list just to see how it plays. If you've got any guidelines or observations about how it plays compared with AnT and TES, I'd be interested to hear them. Thanks in advance!
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam /21

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual /17

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy /7

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire /15

Sideboard:
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Dark Petition
2 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Void Snare
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm /15

There you go. It's been a while since I tuned this list though, so it's probably not optimal for the current meta.
Long story short: more business, less cantripping into nothing. At times, Wish can be weak though.

(EDIT: Apparently it's hard to post this from the top of my head...
EDIT2: Wow I suck at posting lists... sorry guys!)

[Zooligan]

Tournament report from this past weekend: http://www.theepicstorm.com/storming-into-ee4-satellite-03192016-2nd/

Hey Bryant, quick question:

In the report under "Round two: Ross Prajzner on Elves" between G1 and G2 you have "Sideboarding: -2 Duress, -1 Empty the Warrens, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Grapeshot."

But then in the G2 description you say "If Ross draws a land, he can Green Suns Zenith for Gaddock Teeg. If that is the scenario, I have Burning Wish in my hand to get Grapeshot on my turn."

How does that play out? Burning Wish only gets cards from SB, and you can't wish for and play the Dark Petition because of Teeg. What am I missing here?

[Bryant Cook]

Hey Bryant, quick question:

In the report under "Round two: Ross Prajzner on Elves" between G1 and G2 you have "Sideboarding: -2 Duress, -1 Empty the Warrens, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Grapeshot."

But then in the G2 description you say "If Ross draws a land, he can Green Suns Zenith for Gaddock Teeg. If that is the scenario, I have Burning Wish in my hand to get Grapeshot on my turn."

How does that play out? Burning Wish only gets cards from SB, and you can't wish for and play the Dark Petition because of Teeg. What am I missing here?

I think it's just an error in my sideboarding notes. I probably didn't side it in.

[Zooligan]

I think it's just an error in my sideboarding notes. I probably didn't side it in.

Ok. I'm just in the process of building the deck and am trying to wrap my mind around the common lines and strategies. This was making me second-guess myself and think I had completely misunderstood the scope of Burning Wish!

Got any advice for someone picking up the deck about how to evaluate opening hands and make mulligan decisions? I've been reading thru the thread but 380+ pages...

[Bryant Cook]

Ok. I'm just in the process of building the deck and am trying to wrap my mind around the common lines and strategies. This was making me second-guess myself and think I had completely misunderstood the scope of Burning Wish!

Got any advice for someone picking up the deck about how to evaluate opening hands and make mulligan decisions? I've been reading thru the thread but 380+ pages...

I have an entire websites worth of content that can help you with that.

[Zooligan]

I have an entire websites worth of content that can help you with that.

Anything particularly juicy for TES noobs? Currently I've been working thru the articles on your site from newest back. Same with the video coverage. After a while I feel like "Yeah, I'm starting to get it." and then I look at the Hand Generator section on your site and it's all "Glurgh! IDK."

[Bryant Cook]

Anything particularly juicy for TES noobs? Currently I've been working thru the articles on your site from newest back. Same with the video coverage. After a while I feel like "Yeah, I'm starting to get it." and then I look at the Hand Generator section on your site and it's all "Glurgh! IDK."

I recommend about 1-3 years worth of practice and testing. You're not going to find some instant fix on the internet.

[Zooligan]

I recommend about 1-3 years worth of practice and testing. You're not going to find some instant fix on the internet.

Of course not! Just wondering if you had any recommended reading for TES noobs. Guess not. That's OK. I'll slog through.

[LDX]

Of course not! Just wondering if you had any recommended reading for TES noobs. Guess not. That's OK. I'll slog through.

They're coming soon. :)

You'll see a lot of people willing to help you too, if you put the effort in it. Some general content is indeed missing but if you share specific, real game scenarios to others on this forum or the Facebook page, you'll most likely see someone reply for that situation. Don't ask questions out of the blue, try writing reports and be as precise as you can. It's worth it and you'll find the help you want.

With all of these micro-answer, you'll be able to notice patterns in every decisions good players take, and you'll find why and stuff. It comes with time, don't get too harsh on yourself.

[Ronald Deuce]

Thanks for the post, Asthereal! I'll give the list some tuning and take it for a spin. I've gotta get used to running a wishboard in Storm.

[Bryant Cook]

AJ Kerrigan's latest for the website: http://www.theepicstorm.com/a-storm-over-innistrad/

[Pelikanudo]

Read this from A.J.K:

We know that, to start, we will need nine mana. Two for Burning Wish and seven for Behold the Beyond. There is no three card combination that allows us go off from zero mana, so then let’s assume we need a tenth mana.

Yes, there is:

LED, LED, PiF
and In G.Y.:
D.R.,C.R., [I.T. OR D.R. OR C.R.]
For example
EDIT: If this is in a TES deck context then this is not posible.

What does exactly mean?:

Return any number of cards with different converted mana costs from your graveyard to your hand. Put Seasons Past on the bottom of its owner's library.

this mean for example Ican only bring [LED or Land or Petal], [D.R or B.S. or RoF], and so on with the rest of mana costs?

[Wordslinger]

If behold the beyond is to do anything, it will be to get out of situations where your losing horribly. for example, you have a low life total, your opponent has rest in peace in play, and making goblins isn't good enough, but you have ten mana available between your lands, your chrome mox, and the three mana accelerants you have in hand.

An example situation : vs esper stone blade, game has gone a little long, opponent has been taking your cantrips with discard, countering your business and beating you down with tnn. to make matters worse your opponent has just resolved rest in peace. you untap draw and resolve brainstorm.

Your hand is now:
Delta
git probe
B Wish
dark ritual
dark ritual
Rite
Rite

In play is:
Swamp
C. mox (imprint git probe, tapped for brainstorm)
volcanic island
underground sea (land drop for this turn)
badlands

life totals are you at 6 and them at twenty

your line is: 2 life for git probe, coast is clear, draw a fetch you put back. storm 2. tap Volcanic for Rite, storm 3, RR floating, Rite, storm 4 RRR floating. Tap swamp for Ritual, RRRBBB storm 5, Ritual RRRBBBBB storm 6, cast
wish for BTB, RRBBBB storm 7, Tap volc to cast BTB, discarding the useless fetches and get:
Dark ritual
LED
Burning wish
Cast ritual, cast led cast wish and...
Oh.
oh no.

Guys it wasnt until this point until i realized this doesn't work without another mana... and at that point diabolic revelation is better.

I'm so sorry guys.

This card is just bad in here.

[Lemnear]

Of course it is bad as it needs as much mana as the BW-DP-AN playline; if life matters its still worse than PIF; If life is low & yard shut down & goblins no option you work towards a lethal cantrip chain anyways.

The card is not nearly as flexible as it should to deserve a slot. Even in ANT the manacost is too high to run this card over a conventional Tutor chain kill

[Wordslinger]

Whoa slow down- lethal cantrip chain? This is the first I've heard of this trickery. Do tell, this sounds like the sort of advanced technique that better players of this deck know and worse players are not aware exists.

ie; me.

[Lemnear]

Whoa slow down- lethal cantrip chain? This is the first I've heard of this trickery. Do tell, this sounds like the sort of advanced technique that better players of this deck know and worse players are not aware exists.

ie; me.

In the rare and unlikely case that this isn't meant in a sarcastic way: If its forseeable that damage is rolling in fast and you can not combo quickly (aka AN & EtW not being options within a few turns anymore), its totally fine to just develop your manabase via successive landdrops and hold back artifacts, Discard, Probes and other cantrips for a few turns and use these sandbagged cards to ramp stormcount when needed.

A lot of players underestimate how fast the stormcount goes up once you hold back the free spells and convert U and a Ponder/Probe/Brainstorm into a DarkRitual/LED/RoF which not only nets you more mana than you invested, but also 2 stormcount (for a single cantrip!). Mind, that Wish equals 2 stormcount too and IT even 3 (IT->BW->ToA). The same applies to discard provoking opposing Brainstorms or counters. Do the math for some scenarios with the beforementioned rules of thumb and you'll see that "forcing" the deck into either the AN or EtW route is unneccessary and the winning playline is sometimes pretty blunt :)

[Plague Sliver]

AJ Kerrigan's latest for the website: http://www.theepicstorm.com/a-storm-over-innistrad/

Mad props to AJ. He's a solid writer and very analytical in the right spots without coming across as a homer.

On an unrelated note, I've been strongly considering a return to...TES. I think fast is where you want to be right now if your plan is to Storm.

[Bryant Cook]

Mad props to AJ. He's a solid writer and very analytical in the right spots without coming across as a homer.

On an unrelated note, I've been strongly considering a return to...TES. I think fast is where you want to be right now if your plan is to Storm.

I mean, he's a bit of a homer in the fact that he still plays Telemin Performance! ;) But I'm very glad to have him on the team.

The more, the...?

[Zooligan]

I mean, he's a bit of a homer in the fact that he still plays Telemin Performance! ;) But I'm very glad to have him on the team.

The more, the...?

Telemin is ok in a known meta full of combo and reanimator and such, right?

[Lemnear]

Telemin is ok in a known meta full of combo and reanimator and such, right?

Not quite. Storm can board in Xantid, HighTide plays Snapcasters, Reanimator can play low-impact cards like Inkwell Leviathan, etc.

Telemin is good if you play against known entities like OmniTell with Emrakul as their only Creature or SneakShow with Emrakul/Griselbrand, otherwise Telemin can be dangerous gambling

[Zooligan]

Not quite. Storm can board in Xantid, HighTide plays Snapcasters, Reanimator can play low-impact cards like Inkwell Leviathan, etc.

Telemin is good if you play against known entities like OmniTell with Emrakul as their only Creature or SneakShow with Emrakul/Griselbrand, otherwise Telemin can be dangerous gambling

Ok. That makes sense. Thanks!

[Patrunkenphat7]

I have been playing this deck online (played 15 matches so far), and it seems like the current list is basically perfect. Only thing that has felt useless is the Void Snare, but I could see situations where it could be useful. I wonder if a Massacre is better in that slot? I've had a lot of fun with the deck and have gone 10-5 so far. The only thing that has frustrated me is that I feel bottle-necked into certain Empty lines, and the deck is very fragile against some of the more disruptive blue strategies. It is certainly good against all the D+T and Maverick running around online though.

[Bryant Cook]

I have been playing this deck online (played 15 matches so far), and it seems like the current list is basically perfect. Only thing that has felt useless is the Void Snare, but I could see situations where it could be useful. I wonder if a Massacre is better in that slot? I've had a lot of fun with the deck and have gone 10-5 so far. The only thing that has frustrated me is that I feel bottle-necked into certain Empty lines, and the deck is very fragile against some of the more disruptive blue strategies. It is certainly good against all the D+T and Maverick running around online though.

Ever since I cut Massacre a few weeks ago I haven't missed it. In paper (I don't play online at all), D&T has been dead - I've been getting much more use out of Grapeshot. I'll admit that Void Snare can feel like a safety net, but I hate siding in answers in for potential Leyline of Sanctity (When playing Chain of Vapor). If you cut Snare right now, you're only path to victory against Leyline is attacking, which isn't great against those decks.

As for feeling bottle necked, it really depends on how you play out the games. In my match against Miracles tonight, I turn one'd him game one because I had Chrome Mox in my opener. Then during sideboarding, sided out all three Chrome Mox and a Lotus Petal so I could grind them out post-board which worked perfectly. It's a matter of how you see the games going.

Either way, glad to hear that you're enjoying the deck.

[LDX]

TES Infernal Tutoring #1 is live!

In this brand new series, the best masterminds of The EPIC Storm are combining their efforts to teach a beginner the secrets of their art. AJ Kerrigan, Peter Raab and Bryant Cook himself are tutoring Alexandre Richard in his quest for TES mastery. Come see what they have to say!

http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-1/

Remember that feedbacks are important to help create the best content possible. Any questions or suggestions are welcome!

[Bryant Cook]

We're back with an all new ‪TES Mailbox ‬: http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-8/

[LDX]

The second issue of Infernal Tutoring is there!

For this article, we went for longer games, writting full reports and general strategies. Next issue will be more focused on tactical gameplay and micro management. Stay tuned for more TES action!

-Alexandre

http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-2/

[Pelikanudo]

Hi all and to whom may interest:

The other day I played at the LML here in Madrid and got top8!!

I just won my first 4 rounds which consisted in Infect, UBR Tempo, Lands and Hatebears.
The next 2 rounds we drew, they were miracles so I was lucky,

Then the 1st round of the Top was vs RUG classic tempo, which I won, and the next - quarterfinals I faced to a Losset Legend Miracles in which I won my 1st game becuase of an error of my opponent - he should have put Venser on Top instead of Fow, I had therapy and of course named venser.... and lost the next 2... as always...

I built a similar list as always - the 60 are the same... and after Reading the Bryants Cook historical of TES, I made the same - substituted my pyroclasm in side for grapeshot...in deed this is a card that should never had gone from TES... I won 1 round because of G.Shot:

This was the 3rd round vs hatebears and my hand was C.M. C.M. land EtW G.P. RoF, moreless, The issue is that I needed to land Gobs before a hatebear landed and my land was destroyed by wasteland, so I needed to put 10 gobs, the opponent landed DRS chumpblocking anf getting him life and next CAnonist, and I was able to leave the opp. to 2 and destroyed the DRS with decay - yes I chose DRS instead of Canonist, then the opp. also played GSZ to Gaddock teeg, the game was developing me having less gobs and the opp. more critters and then he was at 2 with canonist, Teeg and Enginered Plague - yes to kill my 2 gobos left on table, then 2 turns before my death I drew B.W. , I played B.W. to G.Shot and finished turn, holding LED, and before my death so my play was LED, G.S. and win. YES!, I love you TES.

My opponent told it was like reaching the coast after a shipwreck and next beeing the food of cannibals...

I liked a lot my rounds vs UBR and UGR Tempo, as I was fitgning all in the same round vs wasteland, stifle, Fow and daze...

Again I lost vs miracles...
This times was legend miracles and the next 2 rounds - won the 1st, but the fact that once you reach the 5th turn you are just death even if there is no balance... snapcaster to B.S. holding FoW on top or venser or fluster or snap to fluster, etc, etc.... they had too many angles of defense after they reach a certain turn... my opponent even didnt landed c.b. bt the pressure is always there, I ate my decays one more time...

I was trying 4 decays plus 1 extirpate...well at least this is the unique match up I loose... likely I'll try the goasQuickasPoss approach... on the other side, as I mentioned
Forgot, I put some of antieldrazi hate, but was lucky to not facing any....

Well another top for TES!

Thnkas for Reading.

[LDX]

Latest Infernal Tutoring!

#3 is all about small, smart decision making. What would you have done? Hear the pros out!

http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-3/

[Ronald Deuce]

Bryant, LDX, and crew, thank you guys so much for doing these Infernal Tutorings. It's extremely helpful to see you guys explaining why you'd do what you'd do, especially because it's often hard to see all the cards (and to figure out lines of play) on camera-matches. Wish there were more articles like yours for this deck and ANT (if anyone's got links, I'd really appreciate them).

Keep up the good work, gents!

[LDX]

Bryant, LDX, and crew, thank you guys so much for doing these Infernal Tutorings. It's extremely helpful to see you guys explaining why you'd do what you'd do, especially because it's often hard to see all the cards (and to figure out lines of play) on camera-matches. Wish there were more articles like yours for this deck and ANT (if anyone's got links, I'd really appreciate them).

Keep up the good work, gents!

It's always a pleasure :smile:

If you have any comments or scenarios you would like to see in a future edition, make sure to ask! I've been taking a few questions already that shall be seen in the next one, but there's always room for more.

[Zooligan]

I kinda sorta feel like I'm starting to get the hang of things. Sometimes I still goof up technically, but after about a month with the deck and never playing legacy before I think I'm doing alright. Show & Tell/Sneak Attack decks and Eldrazi/Chalice decks are giving me fits tho. Seems like if I don't have de nutz in my opener I'm toast. What are we looking for in these matchups, especially if we have to mull?

[Lemnear]

I kinda sorta feel like I'm starting to get the hang of things. Sometimes I still goof up technically, but after about a month with the deck and never playing legacy before I think I'm doing alright. Show & Tell/Sneak Attack decks and Eldrazi/Chalice decks are giving me fits tho. Seems like if I don't have de nutz in my opener I'm toast. What are we looking for in these matchups, especially if we have to mull?

Lands.

[Zooligan]

I seem to be lucky enough to get 4 land hands all the time :)

They are just way too slow to beat chalice at 1 or/and chalice at 0. Or Emrukal/G-pap on t2/3.

[Lemnear]

I seem to be lucky enough to get 4 land hands all the time :)

They are just way too slow to beat chalice at 1 or/and chalice at 0. Or Emrukal/G-pap on t2/3.

Thats why you board decays/recalls or more discard respectively

[Zooligan]

Thats why you board decays/recalls or more discard respectively


Right. Yes. Just like Bryant's SB guide says.

[Morden]

Hi guys, I'm new here. I just wanna thank you for the great work with Bryant's site, it's very very helpful for a beginner like me. Having few time to test, I learn a lot by reading your articles and watching streaming of players piloting this deck.

List is very solid nowadays, and with the slow eldrazis' downfall we have better chances to avoid those fu**ing chalices and thorns :laugh:

[Zooligan]

Thats why you board decays/recalls or more discard respectively


Right. Yes. Just like Bryant's SB guide says.

So boarding in the right things is pretty easy - Bryant gives a clear concise guide. I guess what I am really wondering is how to approach these matches post-board. For example, do you mull away a good hand with rituals/cantrips or petals/diamonds that just needs a little help to look for decays because you fear chalice?

Pretty sure there is a little more to it than "board correctly." That's kind of a throw-away answer.

[Lemnear]

For example, do you mull away a good hand with rituals/cantrips or petals/diamonds that just needs a little help to look for decays because you fear chalice?

Would you throw away a T1 kill hand just because your opponent could have FoW or do you take the 60/40 gamble in your favor? Its (more or less) the same statistical question as in the Chalice case

[Zooligan]

Would you throw away a T1 kill hand just because your opponent could have FoW or do you take the 60/40 gamble in your favor? Its (more or less) the same statistical question as in the Chalice case

So you are saying it is just "board correctly and hope for the best"? Make them have it?

[Ronald Deuce]

So you are saying it is just "board correctly and hope for the best"? Make them have it?

That's actually not far off.

The difficult and hair-raising (and fun, I daresay) aspect of playing combo decks is that we're playing the most busted interactions in the format, but there are single cards that can shut us down. So often we have to gamble that the opponent doesn't have That One Card that stops us. Targeted discard or Probe often gives us our answer, but we—and, for that matter, our opponents—don't always draw the cards we're looking for.

Last weekend, I was playing AnT against an Eldrazi player. His lack of turn-1 plays beyond a land indicated that the coast was clear in both games for a T1. Trouble was that he showed up that day running Warping Wail (in G1) and Mindbreak Trap (in G2) and I didn't have the disruption to stop them.

That doesn't mean I shouldn't have gone for the combo on turn 1 of both games. Perfect information obviously would've indicated that I should wait, but we're making the odds worse every turn we pass without advancing our board-state or crafting our hand. Waiting would've let the opponent topdeck artifact-based hate I would've been unlikely to beat.

I'm remembering a game from several months ago in which I was playing All Spells. I couldn't tell what my opponent had in hand, and I had the combo with Pact of Negation in my hand. Turned out the opponent had both Force-blue card and Daze. Doesn't mean I shouldn't have gone for it; just means that the opponent had a hand I couldn't beat. Even if "60 percent of the time, it works EVERY TIME," there's still the other 40% of the time when the opponent happens to draw just what they need to stop us.

And never forget: if you force your opponent to have an answer and they have an answer, you might be screwed, but if you force your opponent to have an answer and they don't, you win the game.

[Lemnear]

Well said, sir. I am more the short, sloppy, rude guy :p

[Morden]

hi guys, I know that a lot of you prefer to put the bayou in the sideboard, but don't you think that the advantage of having 1 more spell in the sideboard is much greater than the disadvantage of having 7 fetches instead of 8? Matematically speaking also I don't see a big difference; and, moreover, one more mana-producing land can help against decks with 4 wasteland.
Did anyone try these two configurations for a long period?