[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Lemnear]

hi guys, I know that a lot of you prefer to put the bayou in the sideboard, but don't you think that the advantage of having 1 more spell in the sideboard is much greater than the disadvantage of having 7 fetches instead of 8? Matematically speaking also I don't see a big difference; and, moreover, one more mana-producing land can help against decks with 4 wasteland.
Did anyone try these two configurations for a long period?

Still playing 14 lands and among them 8 fetches. My sideboard is not for mana if my MB is already 40% mana

[Zooligan]

Still playing 14 lands and among them 8 fetches. My sideboard is not for mana if my MB is already 40% mana

What does your current decklist look like?

[Morden]

Sunday I'll have my first "big" tournament (more or less 60 people), but sadly the postal service made some strikes and now I miss 3 chrome mox :cry::cry::cry:
here the strange question arrives.....how do you replace this 3 slot? starting from bryant's list, I think I'll do:

-bayou maindeck, 1 pyroclasm in side (I have massacre instead grapeshot by default)
-1 preordain
-1 cabal ritual

I know that these cards are completly different from mox, it will be more difficult to start making mana from 0 floating mana after ad nauseam, but what can I do.....At the beginnig I was thinking on 2 cabal and 0 preordain, but I like to sculpt my hand a little better and suffer 1 life point less in case of nauseam.
rain of filth can be also nice probably.

[LDX]

I know that these cards are completly different from mox, it will be more difficult to start making mana from 0 floating mana after ad nauseam, but what can I do.....

You can get more mana before Ad Nauseam. I would go with two Cabal Ritual, but I would also try Rain of Filth, as stated. Maybe one of each. I wouldn't bother with Preordain judging how often Ponder are sided out, and really, since you're just trying to replace Chrome Mox with something else, I would pick something that does somewhat-ishhh the same thing: add mana.

On an unrelated note, fourth edition of Infernal Tutoring is up!

http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-4

[Morden]

You can get more mana before Ad Nauseam. I would go with two Cabal Ritual, but I would also try Rain of Filth, as stated. Maybe one of each. I wouldn't bother with Preordain judging how often Ponder are sided out, and really, since you're just trying to replace Chrome Mox with something else, I would pick something that does somewhat-ishhh the same thing: add mana.


it makes sense, absolutely!

[Final Fortune]

Sunday I'll have my first "big" tournament (more or less 60 people), but sadly the postal service made some strikes and now I miss 3 chrome mox :cry::cry::cry:
here the strange question arrives.....how do you replace this 3 slot? starting from bryant's list, I think I'll do:

-bayou maindeck, 1 pyroclasm in side (I have massacre instead grapeshot by default)
-1 preordain
-1 cabal ritual

I know that these cards are completly different from mox, it will be more difficult to start making mana from 0 floating mana after ad nauseam, but what can I do.....At the beginnig I was thinking on 2 cabal and 0 preordain, but I like to sculpt my hand a little better and suffer 1 life point less in case of nauseam.
rain of filth can be also nice probably.

Considering you play most of your games vs control post-board without Chrome Mox it's not that big of a deal, you can just play Bayou and 2xCabal Ritual MD and have a grindier list vs Miracles pre-board. What matters more than anything is that the lands, rituals, tutors, and LED align for any combination of 2 lands, 1 ritual and LED into either an Empty the Warrens or Ad Nauseam, because you have no other way to justify playing Rite of Flame over Cabal Ritual. In a deck with discard and cantrips, I think going for turn 1 wins via Chrome Mox acceleration is really overrated and the deck should only play XxChrome Mox to "smoothe out" Ad Nauseam as necessary.

I've been running MD Bayou, 3rd Duress and only 1 Chrome Mox for awhile, I needed the SB space for extra copies of Tendrils/Past to grind out Miracles more akin to ANT and the SB land and discard took up a ton of space. You can sort of modulate the deck's mana towards slightly slower styles of play, it's no big.

[Morden]

I agree with you somehow. This morning I found 3 mox and I tried a standard list: went 3-3, lost with painter,S&T,grixis delver, won against painter, 12post, white stax (don't laugh, G2 he started with leyline and trinisphere on turn 1........). Not bad, I made a lot of errors, I had a little of unluck (g1 painter went on second turn with grinstone->painter->led, 14 goblins were ready on my side......).
I think a second hurkyl's recall is necessary in sideboard, but I want to keep also pyroclasm and massacre, so I think I'll remove a chrome mox to add the bayou mainboard, having a slot for the hurkyl.

[Bryant Cook]

New article is live:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-current-state-massacre/

[Zooligan]

New article is live:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-current-state-massacre/

Great article! Just FYI, if you click http://www.theepicstorm.com/articles on your site tho, you still only see up to TES Mailbox #8, not the new article or any of the Infernal Tutoring entries past #1.

In the article you mention streaming. I find watching folks experienced with the deck a great learning aid. Where/when can we view that? Do you record your streams?

Thanks!

Z

[Bryant Cook]

Great article! Just FYI, if you click http://www.theepicstorm.com/articles on your site tho, you still only see up to TES Mailbox #8, not the new article or any of the Infernal Tutoring entries past #1.

In the article you mention streaming. I find watching folks experienced with the deck a great learning aid. Where/when can we view that? Do you record your streams?

Thanks!

Z

Clear your cache, it's a you problem. My work and home computer both look as intended.

Twitch.

[Zombie]

One thing worth noting on Massacre as well that you're definitely aware of but wasn't listed in the article: Elves searching for Savannah is almost always immediately followed up by Teeg, which invalidates Massacre as an answer, so I don't know if it even belongs on the list.

[Final Fortune]

New article is live:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-current-state-massacre/

Curious, have you considered MDing the Bayou and Thoughtseizes (-1 Chrome Mox and -2 Duress) and cutting Grape Shot so you can improve the MD vs Eldrazi and the SB vs Miracles? I've been messing around with SBing 3 Tendrils and 2 PIF to side in 2 Tendrils and 1 PIF vs Miracles similar to what ANT players have been doing and I've been reasonably successful with it.

I've also been on the fence about Cabal Therapy recently, in the situations where you keep discard in just running 4 Duress/2 Thoughtseize has been a lot more consistent at discarding hate post-board and I'm not sure the ETW synergy really matters that much right now. Eldrazi kind of did us a favour by moving from creature to artifact based hate, it seems like we should be taking more advantage of it than just Hurkyl's. If Massacre isn't a thing any more, and I don't think it is personally, then Cabal Therapy on Thalia seems like it should be up for review as well.

[Bryant Cook]

Curious, have you considered MDing the Bayou and Thoughtseizes (-1 Chrome Mox and -2 Duress) and cutting Grape Shot so you can improve the MD vs Eldrazi and the SB vs Miracles? I've been messing around with SBing 3 Tendrils and 2 PIF to side in 2 Tendrils and 1 PIF vs Miracles similar to what ANT players have been doing and I've been reasonably successful with it.

I've also been on the fence about Cabal Therapy recently, in the situations where you keep discard in just running 4 Duress/2 Thoughtseize has been a lot more consistent at discarding hate post-board and I'm not sure the ETW synergy really matters that much right now. Eldrazi kind of did us a favour by moving from creature to artifact based hate, it seems like we should be taking more advantage of it than just Hurkyl's. If Massacre isn't a thing any more, and I don't think it is personally, then Cabal Therapy on Thalia seems like it should be up for review as well.

We've had this discussion months ago about Thoughtseize in the main. I use 'Seize to compliment Duress against decks like Miracles, Show & Reanimator going up to 8 discard spells which you can no longer do.

I don't think the lifeloss main deck is worthwhile, especially in a metagame where Delver of Secrets is huge.
Seize's lifeloss is actually a very big issue when it comes down to being an Ad Nauseam deck. (Especially with only two Chrome Mox)

You're taking away one of the decks biggest strengths to over-compensate for miracles.

I don't believe the metagame has shifted nearly enough to consider cutting Cabal Therapy, especially when you're suggesting a worse option for our life-total based strategy.

If you really want to grind the opponent down, you could just cut two slots from the board (1 Grapeshot & 1 Seize) to add in a second copy of PIF & Tendrils, but it's narrow and would only be done against Miracles.

EDIT: Also, aren't you sort of playing into their game-plan of hitting you with Rest in Peace?

[Final Fortune]

We've had this discussion months ago about Thoughtseize in the main. I use 'Seize to compliment Duress against decks like Miracles, Show & Reanimator going up to 8 discard spells which you can no longer do.

I don't think the lifeloss main deck is worthwhile, especially in a metagame where Delver of Secrets is huge.
Seize's lifeloss is actually a very big issue when it comes down to being an Ad Nauseam deck. (Especially with only two Chrome Mox)

You're taking away one of the decks biggest strengths to over-compensate for miracles.

I don't believe the metagame has shifted nearly enough to consider cutting Cabal Therapy, especially when you're suggesting a worse option for our life-total based strategy.

If you really want to grind the opponent down, you could just cut two slots from the board (1 Grapeshot & 1 Seize) to add in a second copy of PIF & Tendrils, but it's narrow and would only be done against Miracles.

EDIT: Also, aren't you sort of playing into their game-plan of hitting you with Rest in Peace?

Fair points, but the idea behind SBing in extra copies of Tendrils of Agony and Past in Flames is so you don't have to SB in discard vs Miracles. As far as Rest in Peace, I have never seen Miracles SB that vs TES game 2.

[Bryant Cook]

Fair points, but the idea behind SBing in extra copies of Tendrils of Agony and Past in Flames is so you don't have to SB in discard vs Miracles. As far as Rest in Peace, I have never seen Miracles SB that vs TES game 2.

But you lose discard spells against decks like Reanimator, Show & Tell and Death & Taxes. It's a narrow sideboard plan when building for large events, you want versatile plans.

I've had countless people side in Rest in Peace against me, not everyone is on the same skill level. People that don't know any better think Graveyard hate is good against TES.

[Bryant Cook]

AJ Kerrigan's Lates – http://www.theepicstorm.com/eternal-masters-and-the-epic-storm/

[Sidneyious]

Could of swore I posted in here but it seems to be gone now.

Anyway, curious on chrome Mox, how often do you find yourself in the situation where you need that extra mana to go off, but the card you use to imprint is important for the turn you go off?

Do you use it and then dig for another?
Wait to get another card to imprint that's not so important for the combo turn?

[Morden]

Could of swore I posted in here but it seems to be gone now.

Anyway, curious on chrome Mox, how often do you find yourself in the situation where you need that extra mana to go off, but the card you use to imprint is important for the turn you go off?

Do you use it and then dig for another?
Wait to get another card to imprint that's not so important for the combo turn?

I find the moxes VERY VERY useful after ad nauseam. Most of the time I don't want to make a long game, so as soon I have the right mana to cast nauseam I do. Moxes, with petals, let you to start easily after you tapped out to cast nauseam.

I'm playing 3 moxes, 7 fetches and bayou MD: I don't want to waste a slot in sideboard for a land, but I don't want to go down to 2 moxes. I found that the difference between 3-2 moxes (50%) is huge compared to the difference between 7-8 fetches (14%).

[LDX]

Could of swore I posted in here but it seems to be gone now.

Anyway, curious on chrome Mox, how often do you find yourself in the situation where you need that extra mana to go off, but the card you use to imprint is important for the turn you go off?

Do you use it and then dig for another?
Wait to get another card to imprint that's not so important for the combo turn?

I'll mostly agree with the post above me. I'll try to answer your question directly:


How often do you find yourself in the situation where you need that extra mana to go off, but the card you use to imprint is important for the turn you go off?

It happens, but it's very rare.

That being said, in most of these very rare situations, I shouldn't try to go off anyway if the only way I can is using Chrome Mox + an important card. So the very small % of times your question becomes a real issue is outrageously crushed by the utility Chrome Mox provides in its most important role, which is the post-Ad Nauseam mana source.

[Asthereal]

The rise of Eldrazi Stompy makes me want to revisit Simian Spirit Guide in order to try and increase our odds to go off before they land hate permanents. Has anyone tried this recently?

[Bryant Cook]

The rise of Eldrazi Stompy makes me want to revisit Simian Spirit Guide in order to try and increase our odds to go off before they land hate permanents. Has anyone tried this recently?

I havent. The problem with that is SSG lacks an engine that supports it (Ad Nauseam / Life total or PIf/ Graveyard).

If you're only going to Empty the Warrens, Belcher does it better.

[Asthereal]

I havent. The problem with that is SSG lacks an engine that supports it (Ad Nauseam / Life total or PIf/ Graveyard).

If you're only going to Empty the Warrens, Belcher does it better.
Well, you don't have to use it exclusively for Belcher mode. It's worse when Ad Nauseam resolves, but it also helps resolving AdN. You have to be a tad more careful setting one up, but with B floating, it's actually fine to reveal SSG, since we then have combo mana.

For the other points: Chrome Mox also doesn't support Past in Flames loops (heck, it even makes it worse since we lose another spell with the imprint), and Cabal Ritual requires a certain amount of build-up, so that one doesn't actually make us any faster. I'm probably going to try a mix of Chrome Mox and Simian Spirit Guide. I'm guessing a 2/2 split should be a fine start.

[Technics]

What are peoples thoughts on HRecall. I know Bryant is currently running 2 over the typical Chain of Vapor, but I really have not seen much/any Eldrazi in my meta. Is there any other matchups where recall is prefered?

Currently I am playing Bryants latest list -1 Mox +1 CRit and -2Recall +2 Chains in the board.

[Lemnear]

What are peoples thoughts on HRecall. I know Bryant is currently running 2 over the typical Chain of Vapor, but I really have not seen much/any Eldrazi in my meta. Is there any other matchups where recall is prefered?

Currently I am playing Bryants latest list -1 Mox +1 CRit and -2Recall +2 Chains in the board.

I heared Lands love to drop Chalice @ 1 too lol

[LDX]

What are peoples thoughts on HRecall. I know Bryant is currently running 2 over the typical Chain of Vapor, but I really have not seen much/any Eldrazi in my meta. Is there any other matchups where recall is prefered?

Currently I am playing Bryants latest list -1 Mox +1 CRit and -2Recall +2 Chains in the board.

I found Recall to be better than Chain of Vapor against any deck packing Chalice @ 1, so Lands, Aggro Loam, etc. Hell, in my meta, Death & Taxes pack Chalice of the Void too. Recall allows to bounce both Ethersworn Canonist and Chalice of the Void in a single card, which is a huge deal for me, and I'm not even talking about Trinisphere/Sphere of Resistances deck I see on Cockatrice.

[LDX]

Latest edition of Infernal Tutoring! Read it before the incoming GPs!

http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-5/

[Lemnear]

Gonna be in London from Mo-Thu. Any places to sling cards for an afternoon meeting stormers?

[Svyelunite]

Ever wonder if it's worth the risk of just jamming that Turn 1 combo hand? Maybe you're afraid of your opponent's Force of Will ruining the whole plan. This week on Legacy's Allure, Bryant Cook joins the show to help explain the Vegas-style calculations you need to know (and to showcase his personal take on the Storm Archetype). Check it out!

Webcast: https://youtu.be/aTy8wrXesw8
Podcast: http://shoutengine.com/LegacysAllure/tes-and-gono-go-combo-with-bryant-cook-20285

Also available on iTunes!

[Ogh!]

Hi!

I took TES (Bryant's list) to GP Prague and wanted to share some of my experience with the deck in the event. This isn't going to be a full report though, sorry for that.

On Friday I played two trials. I lost the first match in the first trial versus Enchantress because I cast Dark Petition assuming Spell Mastery although Rest in Peace was in play (misplay #1) but went 5-0 in the second trial, beating Mono-R-Sneak-Attack, 3x BUG Delver and Lands.

Starting with 2 byes on Saturday I finished 6-3 and thus barely made day 2. On day 2 I finished with a mediocre record of 9-6. Overall, the deck felt very strong and if I were a better player (I'm working on it :)), I would have finished better as you can tell from my embarrassing misplays that I'm going to reveal in this post.

I started on day 1 with a record of 4-0 (including the 2 byes and wins versus NicFit and D&T) but lost game 3 versus AggroLoam due to a very bad decision: I decided to decay my opponent's Choke (that kept one Volcanic Island tapped) eot instead of his Gaddock Teeg; basically, I valued one red mana higher (I had a LP in play) than destroying his Teeg but drew a second Rite of Flame in my turn which would have allowed me to kill him via PiF if I had decayed Teeg instead of Choke (misplay #2). Things went downhill from there and I lost two more matches in a row versus Sneak&Show and Eldrazi under the impression that at least I didn't make any mistakes. In my last two matches on day 1 I faced a second Eldrazi deck, against which I won 2-1 thanks to 12 Goblins on turn 1 and another turn 1 AdN kill, and ANT, which I won 2-1, too, basically because TES is half a turn quicker on average.

As I slept pretty well I expected to not punt much at least during my first match. I was wrong. I lost my first match on day 2 versus this new UR-SneakOmniShow creation because I decided to cast AdN in game 1 with one Petal in play and a LED in hand (misplay #3); AdN got Spell Pierced (an earlier Thoughtseize got Forced and I didn't expect Spell Pierce but Daze). In the second game versus the same opponent I decided to Duress his Sneak Attack instead of Brainstorm because I was expecting a longer game due to my suboptimal hand; however, my Brainstorm on turn 2 yielded me the nuts and I was ready to win on turn 3. The problem was that my opponent's brainstorm on his turn 2 was the nuts as well and Grislebrand hit the table. Had I taken his Brainstorm, which would have been the correct choice, I would have won this game (misplay #4).

I won the next match, which I don't remember, and had the pleasure to play versus Julian Knab at 7-4. I was able to win via AdN in game 1 on turn 1 or 2. I lost game 2 after Julian's third turn to hasty green critters hitting for 20+ damage. In game 3 I was able to Duress his Thoughtseize (I think he mulliganed at least once) and went for AdN. I was very unfocused and made 2 more misplays. First, I cast LP to which Julian responded with Surgical Extraction on Dark Ritual as he knew that I drew 2 DR via AdN (misplay #5). I should've played a black land first as I hadn't played one on this turn and then LP although I didn't know that he had Surgical in hand (at least that's something). However, I was still expecting to win since my AdN was pretty good; Julian was nice enough to note that it would be still enough for me to win before I had come to the same conclusion. The latter really made me realize that in order to win something with this deck I have to play more. It's tough when your opponent is quicker in counting storm and mana than you are with your storm deck. In addition, I made a mistake when I boarded: There was one Dark Petition in my deck which I definitely wanted to keep in the sideboard. However, I still had 15 cards in the sideboard so that was fine in the end; yet, I didn't stop at 5 during AdN and revealing that DP would've been pretty "funny" (misplay #6). After that match I lost one match to Burn (no mistakes that I'm aware of here), won one match versus BUG Delver (I played versus 4 BUG Delver decks during this weekend and won all matches) and lost my last match versus Eldrazi. In game 3 versus the Eldrazi deck I decided to go all in on turn 1 because he mulliganed to 5 and I expected that he'd TKS me on his second and third turn. Unfortunately, he had Ancient Tomb in play and the Warping Wail in hand (was that a misplay?).

So, 9-6 it is for my first GP. Thanks for reading and see you on MTGO.

[Ebonclaw]

What are peoples thoughts on HRecall. I know Bryant is currently running 2 over the typical Chain of Vapor, but I really have not seen much/any Eldrazi in my meta. Is there any other matchups where recall is prefered?

Currently I am playing Bryants latest list -1 Mox +1 CRit and -2Recall +2 Chains in the board.

HRecall is better now, a lot more decks are doing the Chalice on 1 ASAP thing and breakthrough multiple pieces of artifact based hate. The tradeoff is some loss of versatility, but dodging Chalice on 1 is huge.

HRecall: The best choice for dealing with artifact based hate. Hits any and all problems at instant speed, but is not accessible from the wishboard. Beats Chalice on 1.
CoV: Hits anything you need it to, but leaves you with no answer to Chalice on 1. Doesn't deal with Mom+Thalia and friends. Isn't accessible from Wishboard. Many things you might use CoV for, Abrupt Decay also solves, and either card needs to be present in the MB.
Massacre: Beats D&T. Wishboard accessible. Beats Thalia+Mom. Dodges chalice on 1 but doesn't beat it or Teeg though.
Pyroclasm: Beats Chalice, beats Thalia by herself, beats Teeg, wishboard accessible, dodges Chalice on 1 but doesn't beat it, doesn't beat Mom+Thalia or whatever.

Anyway, I think Chain's absence is somewhat replaced by the full set of Decays, and Recall fills a role that Abrupt Decay cannot necessarily when you're looking at multiple hate cards on the board.

Thinking about trying a wishboard that looks like this:
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Void Snare
1x Grapeshot
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Massacre
1x Pyroclasm
1x Dark Petition
1x Bayou

The tradeoff is losing the extra Thoughtseizes and having to rely on the built-in package in exchange for more versatility. The cards I've been thinking about trying again are Meltdown or Shattering Spree, since Chalice @ 1 will not counter the copies of Spree. The sacrifice here is the Miracles matchup- will 4 Abrupt Decay be enough without the additional discard? Will I miss playing Xantid Swarm even more?

My number one enemies are Thorn, Chalice, Revoker, Trinisphere, Teeg, and Thalia. The deck has mainboard answers to check for and fight through countermagic, stifle, and Mindbreak Trap, and to some extent, enemy disruption, but half of my major problems come in the form of artifacts and having a Wishable answer to Chalice on 1 in G1 is looking more and more appealing. I could push the Bayou to the main as some have done to make room for it and cut a fetch, but will the number of times I wish that Bayou was a fetch instead outweigh the number of times I find use from Wishing for Shattering Spree?
Anyway, I'm not going to be playing any major events anytime soon, so I've got plenty of time to test something like this and remind myself why the wishboard is what it is, it's not like these cards haven't been considered already. But it's not necessarily the cards themselves, it's the context of the whole sideboard and its strengths and weaknesses. One of TES's advantages is its access to a toolbox wishboard and sometimes I feel like I wish it was more....toolboxy to take advantage of being able to access solutions from there.

[Bryant Cook]

Report from GP: Columbus! http://www.theepicstorm.com/gpcolumbus28th/

[Zombie]

Report from GP: Columbus! http://www.theepicstorm.com/gpcolumbus28th/


Pithing Needle on Lion's Eye Diamond

O_o

[Lemnear]

O_o

Reading cards is hard. We saw similar in GP Lille 2015 Top8 (which is even more disturbing)

[Morden]

Report from GP: Columbus! http://www.theepicstorm.com/gpcolumbus28th/

great report as always and congrats for the good result. Glad you went bayou md, I think it's really worth it.

[ManCharm]

I did a deck tech for TES with Gathering Magic at GP Columbus!

Watch it here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2HsPVwm3Pg

[Noctalor]

O_o

https://i.gyazo.com/d3a2996ccf087fd75924d618fc71fc17.png

Standard high lavel play

[Shaman]

Standard high lavel play

The kind of game we usually loose.


Great report, glad to see TES in top32.

[Lemnear]

https://i.gyazo.com/d3a2996ccf087fd75924d618fc71fc17.png

Opponent virtually mulled to 5

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Emma-Stone-Screaming-This-is-the-Best-Ellen.gif

[monovfox]

Have you guys thought of running more past in flames + brainfreeze to act as an ad-naeseum effect that allows for faster tendrils if you end up milling yourself?

[Lemnear]

Have you guys thought of running more past in flames + brainfreeze to act as an ad-naeseum effect that allows for faster tendrils if you end up milling yourself?

You mean running a two-card-combo which is killed by yardhate instead of simply casting Ad Nauseam and win?

[quadich]

I think the fancy brainfreeze+ pif combo seems more suitable for ANT (essentially needing U, B and R seems worse than just needing B and R for TES). Not saying its good, but certainly fancy.

Anyways: just wanted to thank Mr.Cook for his website on this deck. Its really the reason i play this deck in the first place. :) big fan by the way :D

[Bryant Cook]

I think the fancy brainfreeze+ pif combo seems more suitable for ANT (essentially needing U, B and R seems worse than just needing B and R for TES). Not saying its good, but certainly fancy.

Anyways: just wanted to thank Mr.Cook for his website on this deck. Its really the reason i play this deck in the first place. :) big fan by the way :D

Thanks, I appreciate it.

I'm currently working on the next iteration of the website. Should be live sooner rather than later.

[Final Fortune]

Glad you gave the Grinding Station game plan a go, for what it's worth i've been playing with two Tendrils in the SB in order to Burning Wish for one and then Infernal Tutor for the other post-board. If you are playing Massacre again, Grape Shot seems redundant so you may want to try it that way instead.

[Bryant Cook]

Glad you gave the Grinding Station game plan a go, for what it's worth i've been playing with two Tendrils in the SB in order to Burning Wish for one and then Infernal Tutor for the other post-board. If you are playing Massacre again, Grape Shot seems redundant so you may want to try it that way instead.

I really disliked having two copies of Tendrils, it felt wasted and I've had a lot of use out of the Grapeshot slot (even with Massacre). The only sideboard slots in question are the Hurkyl's Recalls.

[rlesko]

I really disliked having two copies of Tendrils, it felt wasted and I've had a lot of use out of the Grapeshot slot (even with Massacre). The only sideboard slots in question are the Hurkyl's Recalls.

Whats your take on the Hurkyl's so far? I haven't liked them in ANT and with the speed of TES it seems like there may be better cards than recall. I'm assuming you primarily bring them in for Eldrazi?

EDIT: Keep up the good work with the site, btw. Really is an invaluable resource

[Bryant Cook]

Whats your take on the Hurkyl's so far? I haven't liked them in ANT and with the speed of TES it seems like there may be better cards than recall. I'm assuming you primarily bring them in for Eldrazi?

EDIT: Keep up the good work with the site, btw. Really is an invaluable resource

I appreciate the kind words on the website, the version I'm working on now will be an improvement (I hope).

I feel like theyve been underwhelming, a lot of the games I lose its from their fast clock and I have dual answers in my hand or so many pieces that Hurkyl's wouldn't save me anyway. Sometimes it's best to just take your chances and use those slots for something else. I'm not saying I'm cutting them, but they're currently the weakest slots.

[Lemnear]

I appreciate the kind words on the website, the version I'm working on now will be an improvement (I hope).

I feel like theyve been underwhelming, a lot of the games I lose its from their fast clock and I have dual answers in my hand or so many pieces that Hurkyl's wouldn't save me anyway. Sometimes it's best to just take your chances and use those slots for something else. I'm not saying I'm cutting them, but they're currently the weakest slots.

I agree on H.Recall. Sometimes you simply don't have the time to build a board for eot Recall into a win. For being specific Eldrazi Hate, the card isn't turning the tide

[Pelikanudo]

I agree on H.Recall. Sometimes you simply don't have the time to build a board for eot Recall into a win. For being specific Eldrazi Hate, the card isn't turning the tide

I used also recall, but wasn't effective enough...
I've been using recently 1pulverize in side in conjunction with a fetch manabase consisting in 13 lands 2 sea 2 v.island 1 badlands (I really hate beeing on 6 discard only but CoS and Pulverize changed my mind...), and in 1 eldrazi match up- i recognize i made a mistake for not considering that the card existed in my side... - but would have won me a game if i had fetched for volcanic as the 2nd land (the 1st was wastelanded and the 3rd would have been badlands). Sure they will wasteland you something, but there are chances where pulverize is the way to go - it is just one mana with a thorn and chalice.

Apart, I'm toying with the idea of City of solitude in side - but i needed more lands - in order to see what happens in the miracles match up... althougth still didn't have a chance to face any...

@F.Fortune, I really do not see the use of PiF in base unless you have anynumber of C.Rit... the idea behind is that with RoF you need more in order to make PiF worth, with C.Rit you are justgenerating +3 mana - the same as 2 RoF... it is just nt comparable... I sometimes use PiF in TES, but are few and the scenarios are reduced to 3 or 4 as much...

EDIT: Well regarding G.Shot - I 've been playing it recently and I recognize I made a mistake taking this card out of the side because of void snare card - thiese are just 2 different cards with different purposes, i can't even compare tg.s. to massacre or pyroclasm.

[LDX]

http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-6/

TES Infernal Tutoring #6 is live!

Hopefully the third question will be useful for the majority of you. As always, feel free to comment & critique!

[Lemnear]

I've been using recently 1pulverize in side in conjunction with a fetch manabase consisting in 13 lands 2 sea 2 v.island 1 badlands (I really hate beeing on 6 discard only but CoS and Pulverize changed my mind...), and in 1 eldrazi match up- i recognize i made a mistake for not considering that the card existed in my side... - but would have won me a game if i had fetched for volcanic as the 2nd land (the 1st was wastelanded and the 3rd would have been badlands). Sure they will wasteland you something, but there are chances where pulverize is the way to go - it is just one mana with a thorn and chalice.

Wishing for Pulverize and casting it is 1 mana against Thorn? In my books its 4 mana total and you give your opponent plenty of options to just Wasteland you before getting the chance to cast Pulverize.


Apart, I'm toying with the idea of City of solitude in side - but i needed more lands - in order to see what happens in the miracles match up... althougth still didn't have a chance to face any...

1) Ask the dear ANT players on this forum. Robert tested with City for example. Can't remember any of the guys is still playing it. Has the same fundamental problem like Swarm against Miracles
2) You "still" didn't have the chance to play against Miracles at all? Don't you tell us here for years of how easy Miracles is to beat with your 11 Rainbow lands? Doesn't fit together for me


http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-6/

TES Infernal Tutoring #6 is live!

Hopefully the third question will be useful for the majority of you. As always, feel free to comment & critique!

Second this. The 3rd question was a good one. Thanks to your friend

[Pelikanudo]

Wishing for Pulverize and casting it is 1 mana against Thorn? In my books its 4 mana total and you give your opponent plenty of options to just Wasteland you before getting the chance to cast Pulverize.


I just tested the other day in a local torunament, I was 4-0 until I faced Eldrazi, and the scenario was in 1 match up:
I was wastelanded my U.Sea, finally I had 3 lands (bayou, sea and volcanic) and enough time to use B.W. to Pulverize and win through Natural Tendrils, my mistake was to not to search for badlands, I finally searched for V.Snare, but I needed one extra mana to cast it through Thorn. Otherwise I would have won.

I uniquely saw that scenario in 1 match up vs Eldrazi (so 1 of 2 the first time I use pulverize) seems like a good statistic... what I will not do is to play 2 hurkils.



1) Ask the dear ANT players on this forum. Robert tested with City for example. Can't remember any of the guys is still playing it. Has the same fundamental problem like Swarm against Miracles



I saw Caleb playing 2 and then 3 CoS, and the last tournament he got 3rd position thorough a field nfested by miracles, which inspired me.
I dont think we could use the same approach as ANT to face miracles - which means 1) senseis 2) more TEndrils and more PiF 3) C.Rit --> grinding mode --> instead just play Grinding station.
What I liked from CoS is that senseins can not be activated in our turn and that is not killed via swords/teernminus and fluster doenst counter it



2) You "still" didn't have the chance to play against Miracles at all? Don't you tell us here for years of how easy Miracles is to beat with your 11 Rainbow lands? Doesn't fit together for me

Sorry I referred to face any in That local torunament

I've always said that my 1st games vs miracles are even favourable... (i almost always won those 1st games, 2nd and 3rd games are just a hell, at least for me...) now i recognize - because of having 13 lands and 1 less discard in main is worse than before. with 7 disacrd 12 rainbow manabase.
The goal i want to achieve is to consistently get to play CoS. now with 14 lands (1 coming from side) this goal is supposed to be achieved.

[Lemnear]

I dont think we could use the same approach as ANT to face miracles - which means 1) senseis 2) more TEndrils and more PiF 3) C.Rit --> grinding mode --> instead just play Grinding station.
What I liked from CoS is that senseins can not be activated in our turn and that is not killed via swords/teernminus and fluster doenst counter it

if you want to adapt ANT tech of more 3cc/4cc spells or SDT, you need to go all the way and up your landcount, dismiss Ad Nauseam for these games, play more rituals and, if one thinks this through to the end, simply play ANT. Its not that Chrome Mox and low-powered Rituals are the way to go for long, grindy games.

Why do we have to go throught the same type of discussion for years? Look at all 75 cards and not just 2-4 in a vacuum, please. 3cc green sideboard cards or a grindy matchplan while playing Moxen are not quite TES' traits

[Pelikanudo]

if you want to adapt ANT tech of more 3cc/4cc spells or SDT, you need to go all the way and up your landcount, dismiss Ad Nauseam for these games, play more rituals and, if one thinks this through to the end, simply play ANT. Its not that Chrome Mox and low-powered Rituals are the way to go for long, grindy games.

Why do we have to go throught the same type of discussion for years? Look at all 75 cards and not just 2-4 in a vacuum, please. 3cc green sideboard cards or a grindy matchplan while playing Moxen are not quite TES' traits

I do not see what we disagree on here, I just was saying exactly this but in different words. I've been always a defensor of TES 4 B.W. 4 RoF and 3 C.M. godamn I was even still playing 4 gemstones... Im not going to add sesneis or C.Rit or likes.. just 2 CoS...

[Lemnear]

I do not see what we disagree on here, I just was saying exactly this but in different words. I've been always a defensor of TES 4 B.W. 4 RoF and 3 C.M. godamn I was even still playing 4 gemstones... Im not going to add sesneis or C.Rit or likes.. just 2 CoS...

CoS work poorly with GEmstone, Mox, low landcount and Ad Nauseam ... said nothing about wish

[Ebonclaw]

It's not that playing the extra land and the CoS isn't going to win you some games, it will. Every now and then your opponent will stick a top or something and you'll follow it up with CoS and feel really good about yourself. But you'll win more games by either focusing on the deck as TES or, as mentioned earlier, just converting it to ANT because more often than not you're going to be bummed out every time Ad Nauseum hits it, or it's stuck in your hand because you can't cast it without losing a petal, or you try to run it out early and it gets countered when you could have just drawn a Duress or something to take out the counter and proceed anyway. Or you can't go off T1 because you need another black card, any black card, to be imprinted on Chrome Mox so you can fire off that Duress first. Or you draw it late and it just gets countered from a Clique getting jammed on top. The only time CoS is gonna feel "good" is when your opponent goes Top/CB and they don't have the Force. And the only time you're even gonna bring in CoS is against Miracles, so it's eating up at least two sideboard slots to aim at one specific deck we can already beat anyway. Did I mention it's worthless in multiples? I mean, what are you gonna do, just slot 1 and hope you can draw it and cast it at just the right time? I'm almost ALWAYS happy to see a Duress or Thoughtseize or Abrupt Decay against Miracles, I cannot say I'd always be happy to have a CoS in my hand.

3 mana is a lot for TES's manabase. And increasing that manabase to support playing a 3cmc card on T3 slows the deck down. If CoS is to be valuable at all, it needs to come down T3, because if a Miracles player gets to untap after sticking top/CB, he's got a pretty good shot of countering the CoS since he no longer needs Force to do so. So now you need to gear the deck to being grindier, and by the time you've got the deck tuned to be grindier.....well, now you're playing ANT.

Not that there's anything wrong with that approach, ANT does what it does well and has its own perks. But trying to make TES play like ANT or vice versa is just diluting the deck. TES is geared to have a better Ad Nauseum engine, and anything more than two mana has to be quite good. Really, really good to make it into the MD. So good I don't think there's even really been a card at or above three mana getting maindecked aside from EtW since.....Priest of Gix?, and that only makes it because ETW wins games. CoS doesn't come close to winning the game, and you're either going to be burning one shot resources like Petal to cast it, or waiting until you can stick it on T4 to go off.....at which point you might as well be playing ANT. Against miracles, I'd rather be drawing a boarded in Thoughtseize I can fire off of one land and continuing on my regularly scheduled Storming on T1, 2 or 3. The longer Miracles goes, the better off they are.

Aside from being 3 mana, CoS is a card you'd almost never want as an "extra" to feed to chrome Mox in your opener either. So it's not good if you have a fast hand, and it's not good if you have a slow one either, especially when CB hits T2 and you try to roll it out T3 and it gets Forced because you gave your Miracles player extra time to find one.
It's not good to try to out-control miracles, that's a losing proposition. Disrupting them and being able to handle their primary threat of top/CB with answers that always work (Abrupt Decay) are better options than giving them an opener of 7, and at least three turns to find FoW in addition to whatever else they're packing. By the time you bring this in, they probably know you're playing Storm or at least combo and be looking hard for FoW anyway.

Having said all of that, your idea of Pulverize is interesting. It seems like a risky card though, in some matchups where it might be useful, opponents may be running wasteland and just casting Pulverize might hurt as bad as leaving a Thorn on the table. I'm still suggesting Shattering Spree might be a better option, as I do feel like I need something Wishable that can handle Chalice @ 1 and any other sphere/thorn effects that I can grab from the wishboard. It's nice to have Decays and things in the MB when you side them in, but you still have to find them or mull to them, and more decks are mainboarding chalice. Pulverize might excel at dealing with multiple spheres, but at the cost of permanent mana, and I'd rather crack a Lotus Petal or something I cast proactively to pay for another kick on Spree than blow up my lands forever for it. What do you guys think of this? I wanted to be able to handle Teeg, Chalice/Spheres, and D&T. I feel like changing Recalls to Thoughtseizes will allow me to play 4x Decay, 1-2x Thoughtseize against Miracles players.

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Void Snare
1x Grapeshot
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
1x Massacre
1x Pyroclasm
1x Dark Petition
1x Shattering Spree

MD Bayou in place of a Mire. Consider 2x Thoughtseize instead of HRecall based on Bryant saying they've been underwhelming. I honestly haven't gotten around to trying HRecall myself as I haven't been playing as much as I'd like and as such haven't had the motivation to go pick them up. I think I still have Xantid slotted there.

[Lemnear]

Atm I'd rather siding Ancient Grudge than H.Recall to get shit binned instead of bounced, but I don't think any existing option is good enough to significantly improve that matchup

[Pelikanudo]

CoS work poorly with GEmstone, Mox, low landcount and Ad Nauseam ... said nothing about wish
Agree... that's why I said that I changed from 12 lands -4 gemstone to 13 lands - 8 fetches 2 sea 2 v.island 1 badalnds plus extra bayou from side. = total 14 lands, i hope this works... as soon as i face miracles I'll expose the results...
As said, I hate not playing 7th discard, i was absolutly more comfortable with 12 lands 7 discard but - mainly vs SneakAttack which is a deck to have in mind by here:
- i wanted to give a try to Pulverize - then needed fetches for at least 3 mountains - 2 v.island and 1badlands
- i wanted to give a try to CoS

The other day experimenting the list with fetches, i really didn't notice any difference, however i faced blue in the form of agro/delver or BUG control. didnt face any miracles as said, but was solid for a 4-0

Well let's see how this works.
EDIT: Iç elbalobare to answer you Ebonclaw, seems interesting what you say...need finish programming work! time to go home..

[Bryant Cook]

Atm I'd rather siding Ancient Grudge than H.Recall to get shit binned instead of bounced, but I don't think any existing option is good enough to significantly improve that matchup

Grudge is worse than Recall, I feel like the point is to just be faster/better against those decks than just trying to answer their bullshit. Focus those slots elsewhere.

[Final Fortune]

I really disliked having two copies of Tendrils, it felt wasted and I've had a lot of use out of the Grapeshot slot (even with Massacre). The only sideboard slots in question are the Hurkyl's Recalls.

That's odd because I've gotten more use out of the 2nd Tendrils of Agony than I have the 2nd Past in Flames, but considering the number of Miracles players who SBed in Rest Peace against you maybe you were right and the whole mini Grinding Station idea should be cut - if we have to forego cards like Vapour Snag in a world of Leyline of Sanctity, then I don't think the Tendril/PIF redundancy vs Miracles is worth the slots.

Random thoughts,

Regarding Massacre, and as an aside Thoughtseize, have you seen enough Death&Taxes to warrant it? With Grape Shot in the SB Massacre seems redundant, and Thought Knot Seer isn't enough of a reason vs Eldrazi to take 2 damage vs Islands. Even Vendillion Clique can be dealt with via s 3 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy MD and a 1 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy SB, so I can't justify it anymore fwiw.

As far as the TES vs ANT argument is concerned, I find the more I iterate towards ANT the more success I have, but I don't believe that means we should be playing ANT. To me, the difference between the two archetypes is that TES sacrifices quality of rituals in favour of number of threats and that is it. I've been playing 14 lands (8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 2 Volcanic, 1 Bayou, 1 Swamp) and 2 Chrome Mox for awhile, and ANT pilots have been playing 14 lands and a Chrome Mox recently so the manabases just keep converging.

Concerning 6 discard, I also had some problems with Cabal Therapy when I cut the 7th discard, so I suggest you play an even split in the MD/SB to make you less reliant on Cabal Therapy and guessing games - it inadvertantly improves the Eldrazi match up fwiw. City of Solitude seems really bad, and I don't understand why you would ever play that over Autumn's Veil?

Ancient Grudge seems like a pretty solid card, gonna try that out, but it probably over burdens Bayou.

If you're trying to beat Eldrazi with speed, then maybe the answer is staying with 3 Chrome Mox and revisiting the Diminishing Returns in the SB?

Odd question, but considering Vapour Snag is there for Leyline of Sanctity more than anything, could we replace it with Reverent Silence in order to get more value out of a MD Bayou or do you think it's too important to be able to SB the card in with the 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 Hurkyl's Recall and the Grape Shot vs Bear decks?

[Bryant Cook]

That's odd because I've gotten more use out of the 2nd Tendrils of Agony than I have the 2nd Past in Flames, but considering the number of Miracles players who SBed in Rest Peace against you maybe you were right and the whole mini Grinding Station idea should be cut - if we have to forego cards like Vapour Snag in a world of Leyline of Sanctity, then I don't think the Tendril/PIF redundancy vs Miracles is worth the slots.

Regarding Massacre, and as an aside Thoughtseize, have you seen enough Death&Taxes to warrant it? With Grape Shot in the SB Massacre seems redundant, and Thought Knot Seer isn't enough of a reason vs Eldrazi to take 2 damage vs Islands. Even Vendillion Clique can be dealth with via 3 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy MD and 1 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy SB, so I can't justify it anymore fwiw.

As far as the TES vs ANT argument is concerned, I find the more I iterate towards ANT the more success I have, but I don't believe that means we should be playing ANT. To me, the difference between the two archetypes is that TES sacrifices quality of rituals in favour of number of threats and that is it. I've been playing 14 lands (8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 2 Volcanic, 1 Bayou, 1 Swamp) and 2 Chrome Mox for awhile, and ANT pilots have been playing 14 lands and a Chrome Mox recently so a lot of the small things just keep converging.

Concerning 6 discard, I also had some problems with Cabal Therapy when I cut the 7th discard, so I suggest you play an even split in the MD/SB to make you less reliant on Cabal Therapy and guessing games. City of Solitude seems really bad, and I don't understand why you would ever play that over Autumn's Veil if you're worried about Sensei's Divining Top?

Ancient Grudge seems like a pretty solid card, gonna try that out.

I'm only dedicating one slot. I'm simply just playing one additional PIF to gain an entire sideboard strategy, it seems worth it to me. FWIW, I had a round I almost lost at the Grand Prix because I didn't have Void Snare in the sideboard, that doesn't mean I want to add it back in – but it's worth noting.

Death & Taxes as well as Maverick's numbers have been climbing. I also used Massacre against Miracles and Stoneblade.

#4Therapy4lyfe

[Pelikanudo]

@Ebonclaw:

The sad thing is that I agree on what you say about miracles...
the unique games I've been able to win vs this archetype are the ones where i dont dilute the deck which is:
- when i start the 1st game
- when i just dont side and start the 3rd game

trying to face miracles when you are on the draw, is just give it a loose even if i side in 4 decays...
people says that multi EtW is ok vs miracles - for me no, I also tryed krosan and - i dont remember the name the Green silence or 2nd A.N. and more discard... but is all about senseis, not balance, just senseis. and a late game which devastate us...
the problem is that there will be a game in which you won't start and that game you just will loose unless you figth fire with fire - like ANT does. but again i dont want to play such plain deck as ANT.

my experience is that i won 70/80 percent games vs miracles 1st games and whatever i do in next games i loose. i just try desperately things like CoS - saw Caleb playing 2 and next 3 it and give it a try, i just dont want to assume like F.Fortune says, 'well thats miracles youll need to get the most of your few chances of winning'...
wellmaybe that only me, but hell i've even faced miracles which played me the hole 4 balances... but i found scenarios with no balance but fluster, b.s., fow, snpacaster, venser and fluster on top... how can you win that with TES?, i dont still dont know but maybe CoS is the answer.... I wont give a shit to those silly aproaches as playing 2nd pif or likes... just better play 2nd AN!!

well at least i can say this is the unique match up i am unfavourable..., apart from eldrazi...
lets wait for uncountereable pyro...

just out of curiosity - what dod you do for 2nd and 3rd game vs mircaels?
likely if CoS doesnt work for me, the next thing ill try is just playing 2 senseis and maybe a 2nd tendrils in my side...

[Ebonclaw]

@Final Fortune:
My local meta contains D&T and with EMA basically reprinting half the deck, Bryant's right, we can expect to see a rise in D&T at a wider level, so Massacre is making sense again.

Bryant's right, instead of trying to fight the bullshit, we need to continue focusing on going off on schedule and outrunning it. The games against Miracles that I win are the ones where I have early disruption and make them find the Terminus. I'd rather put the goblins on the board and get them swept than dying under a CB lock. Some miracles players are unable to differentiate between ANT and TES and side out their Terminus' entirely as well. Depending on how G1 went, I'll think about their board and my path to victory. If I won game 1 off of goblins, they probably kept the terminus' in and if I don't pursue that route, then they're playing with 4 dead cards. Sometimes, though, you have to just make them have it. If they do, they do, but if they don't, and can't find it in two turns, well, they're dead. You can sit there with a path to 10 goblins that you're too afraid to walk into a Terminus so you're looking for a Tendrils route while the miracles player is picking up Flusterstorms and Forces off of Brainstorms. The more time you give miracles without pressure, the more digging they're going to do for all their silver bullet cards. And they can dig better than you. But if you can make them operate off of their initial 7 and limit the time they have to dig for whatever they want and instead forcing them to dig for a specific card, that's a much better position to be in. Sometimes you're just gonna lose to Terminus, but sometimes you're gonna lose instead to whatever they're drawing off of brainstorm/fetch/top cycles. Make them blow their brainstorms and top cycles searching for one specific card instead of letting them decide if they want to draw the Flusterstorm or the Force of Will on their next turn. Make them shuffle that shit away because they have to find Terminus or die.

Cabal Therapy is too powerful and only becomes more powerful the more you know what you're up against so you can make a good blind call if you have to. The synergy with EtW is too great to ignore, and a T1 GitProbe/Therapy followed by a T2 ETW/flashback therapy is quickly and heavily restricting their ability to find Terminus if you make your hits count with it.

It doesn't matter if they have a deck full of Snapcasters and Flusterstorms and Cliques and Forces, they only get to draw 7 to start, same as you, they're prone to drawing more land than they really need until they're able to get it filtered. Snapcaster is a dead card you combo off before they have the mana for Snapcaster+ a spell. SDT doesn't stop you from comboing if CB isn't on the table yet. Force requires a blue card to operate or it's dead. Take the one or two actual problems out of their hand, and go off before they can sculpt their hand, ship back the excess land, deploy the top and filter with it. And then make them produce the Terminus or die trying. Their deck may have more permission than you have countermagic, but you're far better equipped to actually DO stuff in the early game as their permission either needs mana, or other cards to function. The longer they live, the easier it is for them to play multiple pieces of permission, and Snapcaster is no longer a dead card. FoW needs another blue card. Snapcaster costs at LEAST 3 to become relevant. Do they want to cast the Top that does nothing on T1, or keep the land open for Flusterstorm and have to delay playing CB till T3?

Opening hand disruption is prioritized against Miracles, because they're probably not going to keep any hand that leaves them defenseless on T1. Being a combo deck puts just as much pressure on them to find cheap/free permission as there is on you to find disruption. Almost every single card in their deck is irrelevant if you can just get clear enough to go off, except for four terminus IF they kept them in the deck to begin with. Then you can watch them squirm and blow spells as fast as they can while they're shipping their counterbalances and flusterstorms away trying to find an answer to the problem you've presented. It's easier to be the one making the problems than it is to be the one finding solutions. Stop trying to be ANT if you've got Chrome Moxes in your deck. Your plan is to win the first game by surprise factor, and force the opponent to react to you in TWO more games in a row when your deck's best assets are speed and disruption, the last of which you get to even go first if they get that far.

Even getting hit by the Terminus is not the end of the world, it's better than getting beaten down by a snapcaster for more turns than your deck should ever see.
Let's say you're able to probe-therapy-combo-therapy. Your opponent just lost their two most valuable cards to the double therapy. They have to find a terminus with what's left, and then cast it. Even if they're able to do this, they're not going to be left in a great position afterwards, and they probably had to blow a brainstorm to find the Terminus. Your combo turn has taken a total of at least 3 cards from them when you include the Terminus, two of which you got to pick, plus anything they had to burn looking for said Terminus. Even after making you scoop up all those goblins, they're still not "well off".

Lastly, if you're staring at a deck stuffed with Venser, Clique, Snapcaster, FoW, FlusterStorm, guess what? More than half those cards are dead till turn 3 at best. You better find a way around the other two by the time the third land hits the table and the rest of the hand goes live. If that means making 8 goblins on T1 after taking out FoW, with your Therapy, you're better off than letting that hand become fully hot and never getting to go to begin with.
#4Therapy4Lyfe

[Shaman]

Grudge is worse than Recall, I feel like the point is to just be faster/better against those decks than just trying to answer their bullshit. Focus those slots elsewhere.

Did you give Simian Spirit Guide a try? I have not but on paper they could help being faster when it matters. When flipped they hurt you more (+1) but they add mana so after nauseam the balance is not bad after all.

[Pelikanudo]

... what a beautifull feeling... exactly the same happen to me... still i am not satisfied with the results...

thats why long time ago on the play i just sided in more discard for etw and ponder - leaving in the c.m.
on the draw maybe it is better to leave still moxen and take out all ponder for decay...

the only thing i disagree on is that miracles players do know differentiate ant from tes and they leave in terminus and staticaster vs us
how do you side when you start and when you are on the draw?
EDIT:
#4Therapy4Lyfe
#AssSaverGrapshotForLife

[Bryant Cook]

Ebonclaw's post (on mobile) is TLDR. But I am not advocating jamming goblins against miracles - only do it if you have to. Super risky. I'm all about siding into a PIF and a ToA right now.

[Final Fortune]

I don't believe the Miracles match up is as desperate as people think it is, at least not as desperate as "Goblins and Prayers," because you aren't going to be on the play every game nor are you always going to have the disruption, mana and threats to "Goblins and Prayers" on turn 2. Even if that strategy mathematically has merit game 1, the problem is game 2 your opponent has the information, sideboard and mulligan to bitch slap your whole strategy. Chrome Mox isn't where the speed of the deck comes from, whether or not you play 3 or 2 is a marginal difference on your fundamental turn and I wouldn't play the card at all if it weren't for Ad Nauseam.

Regarding Cabal Therapy, just because you're SBing Cabal Therapy doesn't mean you're playing less than 4 copies of the card, as Burning Wish for Cabal Therapy is a thing and you're SBing in Cabal Therapy for 2/3rds of your games. There's a line between the power of Cabal Therapy vs Islands and the precision of Duress vs Eldrazi that you have to draw, and personally I think the 3/3 and 1/1 split in order to cover Vendilion Clique and save life is reasonable. Because even if Massacre is warranted, I'm not sure Thoughtseize is any better than Abrupt Decay/Hurkyl's Recall/Void Snare/Grape Shot and reacting to the board at this point (mainly because the D&T match up usually plays out with you being on the draw for game 2) Maybe we should just be playing 2 Duress in the SB then, "shrug." Regardless, I don't think the composition of the discard, MD Bayou, 3rd Chrome Mox or Volcanic vs Badlands arguments are that relative to your win rate, it's more about how you approach the archetype and its matchups at this point. And just running head long into the opponent isn't really going to make you a better Storm Player or let you leverage your skill advantage - altho' if you aren't experienced with the deck it may be the best way to stop your opponent from leveraging theirs. There's a lot to take away from ANT and ANT players, as they actually have to play out their games as opposed to blowing their opponent's out of the water or the other way around.

Anyway, I think the 2 Tendril/PIF plan for us is at the very least interesting and the Grape Shot/Massacre/Void Snare slots are pretty debateable, it comes down to alternative strategies vs tool boxes and I've sat on both sides of the fence.

I might give something like this a whirl if you just want to try to rely on the deck's natural strengths instead of reacting to your opponent,

2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Past in Flames
1 Dark Petition
1 Void Snare
2 Duress
4 Abrupt Decay

I've had some pretty extreme ideas of just SBing out Ad Nauseam, Chrome Mox and Burning Wish and playing ANT - Cabal Ritual + Rite of Flame post-board banking on the idea that people wont bother to SB in graveyard hate so Rite of Flame isn't that much worse off. Once they see what you've done, you just board out of it and hopefully bait them into SBing in their graveyard hate for game 3. That would probably work way better if you were running those 2 Cabal Ritual TES lists tho', eh can't have it all.

[Lemnear]

people says that multi EtW is ok vs miracles - for me no, I also tryed krosan and - i dont remember the name the Green silence or 2nd A.N. and more discard... but is all about senseis, not balance, just senseis. and a late game which devastate us...

*eyesroll* we had that topic in the past. If you want to primary beat SDT, board Pithing Needles. Period.

Needle @ fetchlands after a G.Probe or at Wastelands is also nice, but you want to board more 3cc/5cc cards to turn your Ad Nauseam.dec into crap instead. *slowclap*


Ebonclaw's post (on mobile) is TLDR. But I am not advocating jamming goblins against miracles - only do it if you have to. Super risky. I'm all about siding into a PIF and a ToA right now.

-2 Mox
-4 Ponder
+1 ToA
+1 PIF
+4 Decay

I'd keep EtW in just to force them to have answers also because its business dodging CB

[Ebonclaw]

@Bryant
Maybe my post was a little overzealous, I'm not advocating just jamming goblins, but I am saying that sometimes you have to and it's better to recognize when you've got a better chance doing that then trying to grind the long game, and if you're going to, then it's necessary to recognize that as early as possible. One of the more difficult decisions is looking at a turn 1 10-goblins with a Duress lead vs shipping it and hoping that you draw a grindier 6. On game 2, if you opened with Mire, Wish, LED, Petal, RoF, RoF, Duress, and draw another land, for example, would you go for this plan on the draw? On the play? Would you stop after the Duress if they Brainstormed? Do you just wait and see what you else you can draw into? How about on the play?

One thing I need to work on for sure is playing the grind better, I've gotten much, much better at sideboarding most matchups thanks to your website and lurking here where I can do it intuitively without having to follow a guide anymore, with the exception of still being unsure when to bring in/out PiF, ETW, and Tendrils. I'd like to see an article sometime examining this a bit more in depth. It's easy enough to know that Abrupt Decay needs to come in to blow up CBs, or Recall shows up to deal with Thorns, but it's not easy to see where one would bring in Tendrils, or why there's a discussion about running 2x PiF and where/when they might belong.

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant
Maybe my post was a little overzealous, I'm not advocating just jamming goblins, but I am saying that sometimes you have to and it's better to recognize when you've got a better chance doing that then trying to grind the long game, and if you're going to, then it's necessary to recognize that as early as possible. One of the more difficult decisions is looking at a turn 1 10-goblins with a Duress lead vs shipping it and hoping that you draw a grindier 6. On game 2, if you opened with Mire, Wish, LED, Petal, RoF, RoF, Duress, and draw another land, for example, would you go for this plan on the draw? On the play? Would you stop after the Duress if they Brainstormed? Do you just wait and see what you else you can draw into? How about on the play?

One thing I need to work on for sure is playing the grind better, I've gotten much, much better at sideboarding most matchups thanks to your website and lurking here where I can do it intuitively without having to follow a guide anymore, with the exception of still being unsure when to bring in/out PiF, ETW, and Tendrils. I'd like to see an article sometime examining this a bit more in depth. It's easy enough to know that Abrupt Decay needs to come in to blow up CBs, or Recall shows up to deal with Thorns, but it's not easy to see where one would bring in Tendrils, or why there's a discussion about running 2x PiF and where/when they might belong.

If you have Duress into 10 goblins of course you keep, you don't ship that. Don't try to force strategies at all costs, you have to evaluate what you're given too. I think the plan on the play is to jam Goblins, on the draw if you hit another IMS (or land) is to Ad Nauseam.

As for the recent strategy, it's mentioned in articles. Read those. I'm in the process of coding the new site and am not going to update the content of sideboarding guides/card choices until it's done.

[Lemnear]

On game 2, if you opened with Mire, Wish, LED, Petal, RoF, RoF, Duress, and draw another land, for example, would you go for this plan on the draw? On the play? Would you stop after the Duress if they Brainstormed? Do you just wait and see what you else you can draw into? How about on the play?

One thing I need to work on for sure is playing the grind better, I've gotten much, much better at sideboarding most matchups thanks to your website and lurking here where I can do it intuitively without having to follow a guide anymore, with the exception of still being unsure when to bring in/out PiF, ETW, and Tendrils. I'd like to see an article sometime examining this a bit more in depth.

I am 110% sure the latest Infernal Tutoring Article adresses just that.

[Ebonclaw]

It addresses its use given different options available (when to reach for PiF vs EtW vs Grapeshot etc), but not the sideboarding aspect of it. I understand the article given the context of the situation, but not how I arrived at the situation to begin with. Does that make any better sense with what I'm trying to ask about here? My question i guess is more along the lines of when PiF/Tendrils should be in the main, not which I should reach for. I'm not asking for concrete guidelines, but more of a "what are the things I should look for thast would cause me to consider moving PiF/Tendrils to Main, or EtW out of the main?"

[Bryant Cook]

Match-ups where Chrome Mox and Goblins are generally bad and the game slows down. Miracles & Shardless, if you looked closely at the report it's the only place where that plan happened.

[Ebonclaw]

THAT's what I was looking for. So the baseline would be to drop a Mox and ETW and bring in PIF and Tendrils main? As such this would also probably apply to a Lands matchup where Tabernacle is a known and tutorable threat?
Do you think there's merit to leaving in ETW just to have that option available to you in Miracles and make them keep their Terminus' in? Or are they going to probably do that regardless of whether your ETW is in or out?

[Bryant Cook]

THAT's what I was looking for. So the baseline would be to drop a Mox and ETW and bring in PIF and Tendrils main? As such this would also probably apply to a Lands matchup where Tabernacle is a known and tutorable threat?
Do you think there's merit to leaving in ETW just to have that option available to you in Miracles and make them keep their Terminus' in? Or are they going to probably do that regardless of whether your ETW is in or out?

You need to do some testing and figure out things on our own. Not trying to be a jerk, but it's tough love - you'll get more through experience.

Also, what I stated in my previous post was mentioned in an article...

[Final Fortune]

@Bryant
Maybe my post was a little overzealous, I'm not advocating just jamming goblins, but I am saying that sometimes you have to and it's better to recognize when you've got a better chance doing that then trying to grind the long game, and if you're going to, then it's necessary to recognize that as early as possible. One of the more difficult decisions is looking at a turn 1 10-goblins with a Duress lead vs shipping it and hoping that you draw a grindier 6. On game 2, if you opened with Mire, Wish, LED, Petal, RoF, RoF, Duress, and draw another land, for example, would you go for this plan on the draw? On the play? Would you stop after the Duress if they Brainstormed? Do you just wait and see what you else you can draw into? How about on the play?

One thing I need to work on for sure is playing the grind better, I've gotten much, much better at sideboarding most matchups thanks to your website and lurking here where I can do it intuitively without having to follow a guide anymore, with the exception of still being unsure when to bring in/out PiF, ETW, and Tendrils. I'd like to see an article sometime examining this a bit more in depth. It's easy enough to know that Abrupt Decay needs to come in to blow up CBs, or Recall shows up to deal with Thorns, but it's not easy to see where one would bring in Tendrils, or why there's a discussion about running 2x PiF and where/when they might belong.

Get used to playing all of your testing games post-board on the draw, because you shouldn't get into the habbit of playing the deck "balls to the walls" unless you are on the play vs an unknown opponent or on the draw and you've seen their first land (Plains. Forest etc.) or you have no other choice (1 land hands with no cantrips or disruption etc.) After your opponent has perfect information, his SB, the mulligan and the play you generally need to slow down and play out the match.

We are a Burning Wish deck so you should never expect Miracles to SB out Terminus, like ever, because you never stop threatening it.

[Ebonclaw]

You need to do some testing and figure out things on our own. Not trying to be a jerk, but it's tough love - you'll get more through experience.

Also, what I stated in my previous post was mentioned in an article...

No no, I get that. I don't get to play much anymore for various reasons, and only one local has Miracles to test against. I get to attend maybe one or two events a year right now, so I'm trying to learn more from other people's experiences as I'm limited in the practice I can get. I'm just fortunate that I get to learn from you guys.
I'll go back and reread previous Infernal Tutors, I'm sure I've missed some things....and I'm also sure there's no substitute for experience either, but at the moment studying is the most I can do some weeks.

[jimirynk]

Have you ever thought about playing nix to counter fow and chalice on 0? also counters e.e. on 0 to kill your gobos.

[Ebonclaw]

TES is not a reactive deck, it strives to be proactive. The most reactive card I can ever recall the deck playing was Silence, and never countermagic. Countermagic just requires you to sit until the right opportunity comes along to use it, and worse, can strand you from becoming Hellbent with Infernal Tutor. TES aims at typically being a fast deck and when your combo turn approaches, every mana can count. Why keep a blue up at all times, when you could just take the chalice or FoW out of their hand with a discard spell to begin with, for the same mana cost. Plus, if there's no Chalice or FoW to take, I can happily snag the Spell Pierce or Counterspell or whatever anyway. Discard is more versatile, more proactive, doesn't require keeping mana up all the time, and besides all of that, even if you were to play some kind of countermagic, what would you even cut for it?

Also, Nix will not counter CoV for 1, which is far worse than CoV for 0, and what most decks would be setting Chalice on anyway.

[Pelikanudo]

@Ebonclaw:
There is no 100% maths vs Miracles or a strategy perfectly defined to handle this match up - sure Lemnear says "well if your problem is senseis then play nedle" or F.Fortune, "well the approach you define if you have no much experience is just incrementing the EtW".
But there is a reallity and is that there is no agreement on what to do vs miracles in order to get at least a 60% of winning for 2nd games where you do not start.
by the moment, well, putting in decays didnt win me any game.

the PiF redundant strategy, well, if this is an approach specific vs miracles, I cannot say anything vs it because i havent even tryed, but if this is intended vs other match ups, well I just think it is simply dont needed... PiF can be countered by a miracles player as equal as other spell, even you need to invest more resources to cast it than with ANT

you want all boys to figth vs miracles post side from turn 3? then the logic inclusión in our sideboard is senseis divining top.
the hell i remember when me and Lemnear were advocating for 4 decays or even evaluating some krosan.

[Bryant Cook]

No no, I get that. I don't get to play much anymore for various reasons, and only one local has Miracles to test against. I get to attend maybe one or two events a year right now, so I'm trying to learn more from other people's experiences as I'm limited in the practice I can get. I'm just fortunate that I get to learn from you guys.
I'll go back and reread previous Infernal Tutors, I'm sure I've missed some things....and I'm also sure there's no substitute for experience either, but at the moment studying is the most I can do some weeks.

I don't sideboard out Chrome Mox against lands, Ad Nauseam is how you want to win every game in that match-up. There's no need to make yourself weak to their Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog trying to use Past in Flames. You can jam games on MODO or Cockatrice as well. But some of this stuff is easy and would seem so to you if you had some more experience.


Have you ever thought about playing nix to counter fow and chalice on 0? also counters e.e. on 0 to kill your gobos.

James, it doesn't play well with Lion's Eye Diamond and forces you to be on the play against the Chalice decks and not tapping mana. Not to mention, most of the time, Chalice is on one.

[Ebonclaw]

I don't sideboard out Chrome Mox against lands, Ad Nauseam is how you want to win every game in that match-up. There's no need to make yourself weak to their Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog trying to use Past in Flames. You can jam games on MODO or Cockatrice as well. But some of this stuff is easy and would seem so to you if you had some more experience.


Work must be muddling my mind today because that seems pretty obvious reading it, especially considering that was something I learned from playing when I did so more often. I need to get on cockatrice at least and keep at it, I promise I was much better when I was playing more regularly.

[Morden]

hey guys, can you help me with sideboard? here it's my ideas, do you agree with them?

4 decay: nothing to say
1 empty: nts
1 demonic pact: nts
1 tendrils: nts
1 past in flames: nts
2 thoughtseize: nts (at the moment.....)
1 voidsnare: a lot of you probably would cut it, but it can replies a lot of hate (not chalice on 1). It's tutorable. Great against leyline, so and so against others. But in general good, that's why I'd keep it.
1 massacre: my meta is FULL of D&T, so it's hard to cut massacre.
1 pyroclasm: normally I side in this against D&T and keep the massacre for wishes. It's good if the opponent's race is very big, also if it's hard to cast it after a wish, the opponent will discover your plan and try to stop it (I thought it was good against grixis, but with counter, discard and so on it's very difficult to set the plan). Maybe grapeshot it's better? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't like the idea to "waste" all my storm-generating cards to clean the board and hope in PiF to finish the job.
1 chains of vapor: as voidsnare, normally I side in this and let the voidsnare for wishes
1 hurkyl: I'd like to have two of them, but I don't know what to cut, and in my meta we have few eldrazi, mud, lands or similiar.....

thanks for your help!

[LDX]

hey guys, can you help me with sideboard? here it's my ideas, do you agree with them?

4 decay: nothing to say
1 empty: nts
1 demonic pact: nts
1 tendrils: nts
1 past in flames: nts
2 thoughtseize: nts (at the moment.....)
1 voidsnare: a lot of you probably would cut it, but it can replies a lot of hate (not chalice on 1). It's tutorable. Great against leyline, so and so against others. But in general good, that's why I'd keep it.
1 massacre: my meta is FULL of D&T, so it's hard to cut massacre.
1 pyroclasm: normally I side in this against D&T and keep the massacre for wishes. It's good if the opponent's race is very big, also if it's hard to cast it after a wish, the opponent will discover your plan and try to stop it (I thought it was good against grixis, but with counter, discard and so on it's very difficult to set the plan). Maybe grapeshot it's better? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't like the idea to "waste" all my storm-generating cards to clean the board and hope in PiF to finish the job.
1 chains of vapor: as voidsnare, normally I side in this and let the voidsnare for wishes
1 hurkyl: I'd like to have two of them, but I don't know what to cut, and in my meta we have few eldrazi, mud, lands or similiar.....

thanks for your help!

There is a LOT to say about Demonic Pact. Like, how the hell would you play a 4 mana Enchantment, paying its mana cost, and not have something better to spend that mana on? For that reason, I'll assume you meant Dark Petition, which is missing from your list and would make much more sense. Also, your list implies that you run Bayou maindeck. It's ok.

I used to run Grapeshot + Pyroclasm + Massacre. What I learned over time is that I was losing more games because I was waiting on those, instead of winning right away when I could. I would believe one of these slot can be used for an other type of matchup. In your case, I would most likely cut the Pyroclasm and indeed run Grapeshot instead. In matchups when such cards are needed, I would too leave Massacre in the sideboard as a Burning Wish target, and board in Grapeshot. Usually you don't even have to clear the board, just snipe one or two creatures. Remember that you don't have to spend all your Grapeshot on creatures too; if you're forced to use all your resources, kill the necessary creatures, and target your opponent with the rest. Your next Tendrils of Agony or Grapeshot via Past in Flames will require less.

I wouldn't run Chains of Vapor + Void Snare for the only reason that Chalice @ 1 is too destructive. Hurkyl's Recall seems much better in any case. You won't see many scenarios in which you'll need your Void Snare game one that:

1) you couldn't win anyway
2) an other card (like Grapeshot or Massacre) couldn't help (against Thalia main, Teeg, etc.)
3) you aren't assured to lose, or close to, close enough to the point that using sideboard slots for these matches are wasted

Running 2 single target bounce at 1CMC isn't good anymore. It simply doesn't cut it, because it's either too little, or too much as you could win anyway.

Honestly, you would most likely be better with a mass removal on artifacts, like... huh, Pulverize, or Meltdown. Most likely Pulverize in the Void Snare slot (wishable, but with more utility), and... something else (Hurkyl's Recall for my taste) in the Chains of Vapor slot. It's a more artifact hate, less Miracles help than the default list, but that's what I would run because I don't believe you need more than Grapeshot + Massacre to beat all the D&T.

Hope it helped!

[Morden]

thanks for your post LDX, so exaustive and clear!
demonic pact is of course a dark petition, I was thinking about Liliana when I wrote that ahahahahhaah.

I agree with Grapeshot, probably I will give it a try. I need just to learn how to play it correctly.

The reason I'm so worried about cutting voidsnare/chains is that they are the ONLY answer against leyline. EVERY time sneack&show/omnitell starts the game with it on play, I lose. Other hate cards can be destroyed also by decay in theory, also if we use it only against some matchups (but for example I use to side one copy of it also against delvers deck, to beat null rod; and if the race is very high, I can use it to kill a delver).
I feel very weak to have only ONE card post side against a type of deck......it's not a tier 1 and so widespread, but I can easily find it in my local tournament.

[LDX]

thanks for your post LDX, so exaustive and clear!
demonic pact is of course a dark petition, I was thinking about Liliana when I wrote that ahahahahhaah.

I agree with Grapeshot, probably I will give it a try. I need just to learn how to play it correctly.

The reason I'm so worried about cutting voidsnare/chains is that they are the ONLY answer against leyline. EVERY time sneack&show/omnitell starts the game with it on play, I lose. Other hate cards can be destroyed also by decay in theory, also if we use it only against some matchups (but for example I use to side one copy of it also against delvers deck, to beat null rod; and if the race is very high, I can use it to kill a delver).
I feel very weak to have only ONE card post side against a type of deck......it's not a tier 1 and so widespread, but I can easily find it in my local tournament.


You're welcome.

I get your point that Void Snare is the only answer to a certain problem. I was stuck in the same loophole. However, an other thing I learned from this thread is that some things are not worth having an answer for.

Here are some insights:

1) If they mulligan to get their Leyline, most likely they had to cut on their speed, and you can still win via Empty the Warrens.

2) If you mulligan to have your Chains of Vapor (assuming you kept Void Snare in the side), you most likely did cut your speed and maybe could have won with it.

3) If you don't mulligan for it, don't see it on the field, and lose because you actually drew the card, you could have won with something else.

4) If they start with Leyline on the field, how many times, let's disregard the possibility and actually be practical, how many times can you Burning Wish:Void Snare into win, and not Burning Wish:Empty the Warrens into win?

What I'm trying to say is, you're asking an answer for this possible situation:

-Your opponent is protected by a Leyline of Sanctity before you could Tendrils of Agony
-Empty the Warrens isn't a possible win condition
-Your opponent will kill you before you can manage something for Empty the Warrens to be a win condition
-Your Chain of Vapor or Void Snare is going to resolve (no counterspells, no discards, it resolves)
-You can win before they drop their Leyline of Sanctity again.

These are a lot of conditions to fulfill. While it can happen, indeed, the important question becomes the following: is it worth to have a dedicated sideboard slot which will be used if the previous five conditions are met? I would say no, but you could say yes. However you would then have to answer this new question: is it worth to have a dedicated sideboard slot which will be used if the previous five conditions are met, over something else?

Because this discussion would be irrelevant if we had unlimited sideboard slot.

In other words, will these sideboard cards help me win more matches than other cards?

To me, the answer was no. I no longer run 1CMC spot removal, and guess what, my win ratio is improving. :) It's not about getting the necessary card to get around a specific scenario, it's about getting a hard that will help you win more matches.

[Lemnear]

I have nothing to add here. Kudos, Alexandre

[Zooligan]

Honestly, you would most likely be better with a mass removal on artifacts, like... huh, Pulverize, or Meltdown. Most likely Pulverize in the Void Snare slot (wishable, but with more utility)

Shattering Spree maybe? The copies aren't counterable by Chalice@1 and you get to keep your mountains.

[Morden]

I agree somehow with you LDX. Replying to your points:

1) They can cut their speed, but this doens't mean we can easily win with goblins. Pyroclasm/explosive are easy to find with all the cantrips that deck runs, or also cunning wish into kozilek's return. And with no gitaxian probe to see if the path is clear and discarding card, it's more difficult to resolve an Empty.
2) Well, of course I'd never keep an hand based only on chains. By the way, it can be use also to bounce our petal/led to increase the storm count, so it is a nice card also if no leyline is on the field. It's never a dead card; thoughtseize, cabal, duress are if opponent has a leyline
3) same as point 2

point 4 and final consideration: that's true, PROBABLY you'll be heat by a counterspell when you'll try to resolve a wish or a chains. Does this mean that we don't have to try? I mean, I don't see easier to storm blindly ('cause with leyline we cannot use gitaxian nor duress) with Empty AND survive to mass removal rather than resolve a void snare/chains.
I understand also that artifact are very boring and they deserve a lot of anti-hate, but we already have 4 decay, 1/2 hurlkyl...... can we use a slot for the leyline situation, can't we? or, at least, find some cards that can help against leyline AND against other things (that's why thoughtseize are in discussion.....wonderful if leyline is not on the field, absolutly bad with leyline)

[LDX]

I have nothing to add here. Kudos, Alexandre

:)


Shattering Spree maybe? The copies aren't counterable by Chalice@1 and you get to keep your mountains.

I tried it. Shattering Spree requires you to have red mana to cast. We only run two red mana source, excluding artifacts because these can be countered as well. Two mountains is not enough to cast Shattering Spree. I swear I tried, you can see my whole progress with that from last summer. It's simply impossible to cast and be efficient, we don't run enough red sources for it. To sacrifice your mountain is meaningless if you win in the turn anyway, or in the worst case, the following thing with artifact providing red mana that you played after your clear.


I agree somehow with you LDX. Replying to your points:

1) They can cut their speed, but this doens't mean we can easily win with goblins. Pyroclasm/explosive are easy to find with all the cantrips that deck runs, or also cunning wish into kozilek's return. And with no gitaxian probe to see if the path is clear and discarding card, it's more difficult to resolve an Empty.
2) Well, of course I'd never keep an hand based only on chains. By the way, it can be use also to bounce our petal/led to increase the storm count, so it is a nice card also if no leyline is on the field. It's never a dead card; thoughtseize, cabal, duress are if opponent has a leyline
3) same as point 2

point 4 and final consideration: that's true, PROBABLY you'll be heat by a counterspell when you'll try to resolve a wish or a chains. Does this mean that we don't have to try? I mean, I don't see easier to storm blindly ('cause with leyline we cannot use gitaxian nor duress) with Empty AND survive to mass removal rather than resolve a void snare/chains.
I understand also that artifact are very boring and they deserve a lot of anti-hate, but we already have 4 decay, 1/2 hurlkyl...... can we use a slot for the leyline situation, can't we? or, at least, find some cards that can help against leyline AND against other things (that's why thoughtseize are in discussion.....wonderful if leyline is not on the field, absolutly bad with leyline)

I'm not saying it's easy to win against a Leyline in play, I'm saying it's possible and that having sideboard cards dedicated to ease that isn't worth it.

You're adding even more requirements to the points I listed before: they have a wipe or a way to find it. Of course you can theorize for the worst scenario ever but trust me, it doesn't help you win and just go on a spiral. I mean, I've written a full series on that on the TES website. It's basically my story on how I focused too much on a single aspect in a league, and how it almost tricked me to failure. Go read my previous work! :D

They could have Leyline, Counterspells, a wipe, etc. But they can also have nothing when you have a turn one win. Does it mean you need to throw away everything just to focus on your turn one kill possibilities? No it doesn't, you know there's a balance to find.

An other note, if you want to win with a clear path, this deck isn't for you, go with ANT instead. TES is built for gutsy plays and moves. The cards are awesome at doing that, but you need to play them right. As the saying goes, don't judge a fish by how it climbs a tree. You're given some tools, use them to their full extend or you'll end up disappointed.

You also say: ''By the way, it can be use also to bounce our petal/led to increase the storm count, so it is a nice card also if no leyline is on the field. It's never a dead card; thoughtseize, cabal, duress are if opponent has a leyline.''

Yes it can. Does it mean it's good? No. It is not a nice card if no Leyline is on the field, it's just a usable card for a fringe use. Wouldn't you prefer something else over that? I'll give you that it's flashy and nice to cast, really, I agree! But this small upside isn't worth the sideboard slot it takes.

I'll take your words again: ''point 4 and final consideration: that's true, PROBABLY you'll be heat by a counterspell when you'll try to resolve a wish or a chains. Does this mean that we don't have to try?''

''Does it mean that we don't have to try?'' It's exactly what I'm trying to tell you, but there is a limit to respect. Does it mean that, because they can find a wipe, we don't have to try to win with Empty the Warrens? What is more plausible, them having any form of counterspells for your Chain of Vapor, or them finding a wipe? I invite you to look decklists, you'll see one is more prevalent than the other.

Your need would be valid if you played against a friend and nothing else, in which you could sideboard your 15 cards. The reality is that if the worst of the worst case scenario happens and that you really can't win by any mean, statistically, you were unlucky and must move on to the next game. TES is built to win tournaments, not to have answers to everything. If you believe you need answers to everything then you're playing TES wrong. It's about maths and statistics and, especially in TES case, probability. Now bear with me, if your feelings get over the maths and statistics and it becomes more important to you to respond to these feelings, please go for it! But as far as the maths go, your deck will most likely be sub optimal.

I also run many artifact hate to make sure I can use some in a game. It makes a difference when I board all that stock in my deck. A single Void Snare or Chain of Vapor would most likely be a waste of slot, it has less impact because it's less numerous. 6 cards to hate a specific thing is worth more than 3 cards to hate one thing, and 3 other cards to hate an other. It has more weight and makes a real difference.

In other words, the probability of all the scenarios you suggest (them having everything, you having nothing) is so small that it is not worth caring about, for two reasons:

-It won't happen often.
-When it happens, the deck can (and most likely will) bounce back in the next game.

...and if you happen to lose the match, then the deck is built to carry own despite that loss.

Sometimes, I fall in the stairs, but I don't live my life wrapped in a bubble protection suit: the other things I do in life would suffer from it. I might happen to be hurt when I fall, but then my body will recover. And in the very small event, the very slim chance that actually die from falling in the stairs occur, when I'll look upon my life, I'll tell myself not living wrapped in a bubble protection suit was still worth it.

[Lemnear]

An other note, if you want to win with a clear path, this deck isn't for you, go with ANT instead. TES is built for gutsy plays and moves. The cards are awesome at doing that, but you need to play them right. As the saying goes, don't judge a fish by how it climbs a tree. You're given some tools, use them to their full extend or you'll end up disappointed.

ANT has also several paths to win which people constanly miss out. Cantrip/Tutor chains without engine card are criminally underestimated in both decks


TES is built to win tournaments, not to have answers to everything. If you believe you need answers to everything then you're playing TES wrong. It's about maths and statistics and, especially in TES case, probability.

I really loved that *ShedATear*

[Zooligan]

:)Sometimes, I fall in the stairs, but I don't live my life wrapped in a bubble protection suit: the other things I do in life would suffer from it. I might happen to be hurt when I fall, but then my body will recover. And in the very small event, the very slim chance that actually die from falling in the stairs occur, when I'll look upon my life, I'll tell myself not living wrapped in a bubble protection suit was still worth it.

This is awesome! #MTGComboLife

[Ebonclaw]

LDX: Your last post was on point, and said what I was trying to much more eloquently....and accurately. Figuring out when your odds are the best, mathematically, and going for it, because in some games, you won't reach 100%, you might only reach 60%, but if those are as good as the odds are going to get, I'm happy to take them. The hard part is figuring out, when your odds of winning are not going to go up anymore, or else you end up taking unnecessary risks that you didn't have to take.

I want to discuss your testing of Shattering Spree and Pulverize. I went back on TheEpicStorm and searched up all your articles, and found two in which you were playing Shattering Spree. In one of those instances, it never became relevant, and in the other article, you wrote about how you misplayed it due to you being used to Chalice set on 0, not 1. I didn't find much else about your experience testing it there. I also noticed that you were running the manabase without Badlands. Do you think you'd have access to the RR more often if you were playing the Badlands? Before I swapped in Badlands, I would hardly ever purposely choose to have both Volcanics out at the same time. But since I've taken out a Volcanic and added the Badlands, I find myself with Volcanic and Badlands on the table pretty often by choice. Do you think you'd get different results with today's manabase if you test again?

I've been thinking about Pulverize more though, and I'm starting to come around to it in my mind. The situations where I'd rather have Pulverize are the ones where I can win that turn if it wasn't for that stupid Chalice @ 1. If I can't win the turn I cast Pulverize, I'd rather have Shattering Spree, assuming that there are two mountains in play the same that I'd have to have for Pulverize. Shattering Spree has more strategic value, but in the same way the CoV wasn't chosen for its niche ability to increase your own storm count, I wouldn't look to opt for Shattering Spree just because it can break the occasional Batterskull or something, but I do like that I can cast it regardless of whether or not I'm trying to go off that turn.

Having a way to beat Chalice and other nasty artifacts G1 instead of just rolling over and dying is important to me. My local meta features D&T, as well as Lands. The last event I played got paired with Imperial Painter, and MUD in the first two rounds. MUD I was able to come back from somehow and take the match 2-1, but I lost G1 to Chalice on 1 from Imperial Painter and it cost me the match.

There comes a point where one cannot devote a sideboard slot to every possible situation. You're right, TES is a gutsy deck. But there's toolboxing a wishboard, and then there's overdoing it because you feel like you need to make sure you've got a way to beat Shared Fate Combo. I'm trying to avoid going too far in that direction, but I'm getting sick of thinking "man, if I just had ONE card that nuked artifacts that I could wish for, I could at least fight, but Chalice on 1 feels bad when all I've got is Void Snare"

[Final Fortune]

Honestly if you're that worried about Leyline of Sanctity you may just want to play Telemin's Performace/Bribery and go for the win that way instead of playing for the bounce or Goblins, what makes Void Snare an arguable card is that it has some value post board vs random hate like Pyrostatic Pillar. Tutoring for answers just really has to be stupidly cost efficient or the only possible way to win - otherwise the hate does its job either way.

[Morden]

thank you so much guys, you really help me a lot, opening my mind and giving me an hand to see things in a different way! ^^

[Lemnear]

Honestly if you're that worried about Leyline of Sanctity you may just want to play Telemin's Performace/Bribery and go for the win that way instead of playing for the bounce or Goblins, what makes Void Snare an arguable card is that it has some value post board vs random hate like Pyrostatic Pillar. Tutoring for answers just really has to be stupidly cost efficient or the only possible way to win - otherwise the hate does its job either way.

Want to elaborate how you expect that to work?

I fully agree on the last sentence.

[Final Fortune]

Want to elaborate how you expect that to work?

I fully agree on the last sentence.

Yeah I really didn't word that as carefully as I should've; I didn't mean use Telemin's Performance in order to circumvent Leyline of Sanctity, I meant use Telemin's Performance instead of Void Snare in the Sneak/Show match up as your "meta" card since you're only playing Void Snare for that deck anyway. i.e. concentrate on improving the match up elsewhere.

[LDX]

LDX: Your last post was on point, and said what I was trying to much more eloquently....and accurately. Figuring out when your odds are the best, mathematically, and going for it, because in some games, you won't reach 100%, you might only reach 60%, but if those are as good as the odds are going to get, I'm happy to take them. The hard part is figuring out, when your odds of winning are not going to go up anymore, or else you end up taking unnecessary risks that you didn't have to take.

I hear you. I have the same difficulties; mindset is on the line, but the ability to actually play the cards relative to this mindset is were I'm stuck. I guess every players have their own challenges, from conceptualization to playability or budget or what have you.


I want to discuss your testing of Shattering Spree and Pulverize. I went back on TheEpicStorm and searched up all your articles, and found two in which you were playing Shattering Spree. In one of those instances, it never became relevant, and in the other article, you wrote about how you misplayed it due to you being used to Chalice set on 0, not 1. I didn't find much else about your experience testing it there.

Yeah that was a lack of my part. The series can cut in four pieces:

1) Wtf can't win please help
2) Shattering Spree/Echoing Truth lords and saviours!
3) Still can't win, all that work for nothing
4) Oh, I couldn't win THAT DECK, but I still won the league, there must be something deeper, I understood something!

So in the end Shattering Spree provide no results. I just chose to call it off after more playtests on Cockatrice, it was never helping. I thought it was the solution to a problem you don't seem to be unknown to, it wasn't for some reasons mentioned previously (TL;DR impossible to get enough red mana)


I also noticed that you were running the manabase without Badlands. Do you think you'd have access to the RR more often if you were playing the Badlands? Before I swapped in Badlands, I would hardly ever purposely choose to have both Volcanics out at the same time. But since I've taken out a Volcanic and added the Badlands, I find myself with Volcanic and Badlands on the table pretty often by choice. Do you think you'd get different results with today's manabase if you test again?

No. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I wouldn't think so. And anyway, I believe these mana could be better spent elsewhere. (TL;DR tap for mana, then sacrifice the mountains, then cast spells)


I've been thinking about Pulverize more though, and I'm starting to come around to it in my mind. The situations where I'd rather have Pulverize are the ones where I can win that turn if it wasn't for that stupid Chalice @ 1. If I can't win the turn I cast Pulverize, I'd rather have Shattering Spree, assuming that there are two mountains in play the same that I'd have to have for Pulverize. Shattering Spree has more strategic value, but in the same way the CoV wasn't chosen for its niche ability to increase your own storm count, I wouldn't look to opt for Shattering Spree just because it can break the occasional Batterskull or something, but I do like that I can cast it regardless of whether or not I'm trying to go off that turn.

There are two things in that segment. From my (limited) experience, the play you propose with Shattering Spree, playing it before your winning turn, isn't possible because of Wasteland. If it wasn't from Wasteland, as I said in my articles, Abrupt Decay could have been a solution. There was no scenarios, and I mean 0, in which I could have Shattering Spree/win next turn. None. That's my first point, I get that you could feel differently because you have to deal with different situations, and that your needs and mines, or at least how you prioritize the value you're seeking out of your answers, can be different.

However, the second point implies that Shattering Spree is the solution for your issue, or at least the solution that seems to be the best for you. To that, I would advice to think again. I mean I got fooled by the card, bought a playset and never used it after. Maybe your outcome will be different, but it didn't work for me.


Having a way to beat Chalice and other nasty artifacts G1 instead of just rolling over and dying is important to me. My local meta features D&T, as well as Lands. The last event I played got paired with Imperial Painter, and MUD in the first two rounds. MUD I was able to come back from somehow and take the match 2-1, but I lost G1 to Chalice on 1 from Imperial Painter and it cost me the match.

There comes a point where one cannot devote a sideboard slot to every possible situation. You're right, TES is a gutsy deck. But there's toolboxing a wishboard, and then there's overdoing it because you feel like you need to make sure you've got a way to beat Shared Fate Combo. I'm trying to avoid going too far in that direction, but I'm getting sick of thinking "man, if I just had ONE card that nuked artifacts that I could wish for, I could at least fight, but Chalice on 1 feels bad when all I've got is Void Snare"

I feel the same ,and it's why Void Snare is now a Pulverize for me. Takes one slot, can be wished, allows me to win on the spot. If I was facing a lot of Miracles deck, things would be different, but I haven't so far. The important thing is to know you have to find your ratio, and only after that is understood, you can start tweaking things to get the best coefficient. I'm sure you understand that too.

[Ronald Deuce]

I fully agree on the last sentence.

I think it should be quoted in both Storm primers, esp. regarding Grim Tutor in AnT.

[Bryant Cook]

Yeah I really didn't word that as carefully as I should've; I didn't mean use Telemin's Performance in order to circumvent Leyline of Sanctity, I meant use Telemin's Performance instead of Void Snare in the Sneak/Show match up as your "meta" card since you're only playing Void Snare for that deck anyway. i.e. concentrate on improving the match up elsewhere.

Problem with this is that Snare provides outs in situations where you can afford the mana (post-Ad Nauseam), where Telemin Performance's role has been diminished by Dark Petition.

[Izor]

Void Snare was never a meta card against Show and Tell for me. I don't even see what it does in that matchup to be honest, I've kept a very positive record against those decks and never cast that card against them in my life.

As Bryant said, Snare is there to remove stuff we can't win through otherwise, especially game 1 when we don't have Decays yet. A few of the most common things I've done with it in the past include:

- Bounce a resolved Iona on black against Dredge or Reanimator for 1UR total mana and kill them after
- Bounce a resolved Platinum Emperion/Angel against MUD post Ad Nauseam.
- Bounce Leyline of Sanctity against Enchantress post-AN where making 20+ Goblins isn't guaranteed to win.
- Bounce a Game 1 turn 2 Gaddock Teeg from Maverick/Elves.
- I've even managed to remove Eidolon with it against Burn or Thorn against Eldrazi and still win the game a few times, though that involves a lot of luck to work.

Two of the guys in my playgroup who I play against the most currently play Chaos Elves and MUD, so Snare isn't going anywhere for now.

That said, in order to figh the Eldrazis I also have a Meltdown in my board. I'm swapping it and Pulverize back and forth, trying to figure out what's better, but I haven't come to a final conclusion yet. Pulverize is usually better against Thorns or a mix of Chalice/Thorn, Meltdown is much more reliable in general and better agaist just Chalices. Running Pulverize into a Wail is game over too.

[Lemnear]

- Bounce a resolved Iona on black against Dredge or Reanimator for 1UR total mana and kill them after

Grapeshot or EtW. No argument


- Bounce a resolved Platinum Emperion/Angel against MUD post Ad Nauseam.

Grapeshot


- Bounce Leyline of Sanctity against Enchantress post-AN where making 20+ Goblins isn't guaranteed to win.

The matchup is 0,26% of the metagame and only in 1 decklist there were 2 Leylines


- Bounce a Game 1 turn 2 Gaddock Teeg from Maverick/Elves.

Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down ... and Grapeshot!


- I've even managed to remove Eidolon with it against Burn or Thorn against Eldrazi and still win the game a few times, though that involves a lot of luck to work.

A 5 mana reactive play against eldrazi which "won" the game? *RisesEyebrow*


Two of the guys in my playgroup who I play against the most currently play Chaos Elves and MUD, so Snare isn't going anywhere for now.

Don't understand that one


That said, in order to figh the Eldrazis I also have a Meltdown in my board.

More 4+ mana plays against eldrazi (thorn)?


I'm swapping it and Pulverize back and forth, trying to figure out what's better, but I haven't come to a final conclusion yet. Pulverize is usually better against Thorns or a mix of Chalice/Thorn, Meltdown is much more reliable in general and better agaist just Chalices. Running Pulverize into a Wail is game over too.

Eating wasteland in response to Burning Wish is too

[Izor]

It's weird, everytime I post here and I read the responses it makes me never want to post again.


Grapeshot or EtW. No argument

Winning with Grapeshot while all your black spells are turned off? That's not happening. Except if you're trying to Grapeshot the Iona, in which case you're probably empty handed after that and your Reanimator or Dredge opponent just neds to find their next reanimation spell. With ETW it's possible but extremely unlikely. What I did was bounce the Iona on turn 3 with Wish into Snare, then win the turn after. ETW and Grapeshot are useless there.


Grapeshot

Grapeshot does it too, yes. I'm not running Grapeshot any more because Void Snare solves a lot of the same issues and those that it doesn't solve have come up very rarely for me in the last few months. I had far more situations in which I needed specifically Void Snare than I wished I had a Grapeshot in my board.


The matchup is 0,26% of the metagame and only in 1 decklist there were 2 Leylines

This does not change the fact that it happened. A card like Void Snare is generally a card that I run as a catch all for whatever problematic permanent my opponent might present me with game 1. And it did its job here.


Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down ... and Grapeshot!

It's not a very reliable strategy to rely on exactly a turn 1 kill in this matchup when I'm on the draw. It's not a big deal to wish for Snare on turn 2 and then kill turn 3 starting the turn with Void Snare on Teeg. That stuff comes up regularly when playing against decks with 5 copies of Teeg in the main, I don't see why it's wrong to have an out to that. Grapeshot costs 1 extra mana which can be a huge deal.


A 5 mana reactive play against eldrazi which "won" the game? *RisesEyebrow*

Yes. Void Snare cost 2 mana the turn I went off, but the active thorn would have cost infinitely more and I would not have been able to play through it before his random spaghettis killed me.


Don't understand that one

I face that stuff a lot because those people are always at the same local that I attend.


More 4+ mana plays against eldrazi (thorn)?

Everyone plays 4 Chalices in their Eldrazi decks, but not all of them play 4 Thorn. The list that just won the BOM this weekend had zero Thorns main. Some people play like 2. Killing 2 Chalices (one for 1, one for 0) for 2+2 mana is one of the very few ways to beat a turn 1 double chalice draw. Pulverize is also possible, but as I said, the mana situation is too unreliable for my taste.


Eating wasteland in response to Burning Wish is too

Indeed.

[Lemnear]

It's weird, everytime I post here and I read the responses it makes me never want to post again.

I feel the same every time I read about decktechs which require your opponent to make significant play-errors first like dropping Iona @ red


Winning with Grapeshot while all your black spells are turned off? That's not happening. Except if you're trying to Grapeshot the Iona, in which case you're probably empty handed after that and your Reanimator or Dredge opponent just neds to find their next reanimation spell. With ETW it's possible but extremely unlikely. What I did was bounce the Iona on turn 3 with Wish into Snare, then win the turn after. ETW and Grapeshot are useless there.

EtW is a two-turn clock, while Iona is a three turn one, so racing her with goblins isn't unheared off. Most of TES' wishboard is limited to common scenario options or situations you cannot work around. Iona @ black is a gamestate you still CAN win and is not a common one as its a fundamental mistake made. For me this particular scenario is not an argument to bring VS to a GP or SCG open


Grapeshot does it too, yes. I'm not running Grapeshot any more because Void Snare solves a lot of the same issues and those that it doesn't solve have come up very rarely for me in the last few months. I had far more situations in which I needed specifically Void Snare than I wished I had a Grapeshot in my board.

This is kinda interresting to discuss the number and type of non-creatures you bounce with the BW->VS playline resulting into a win game 1 without alternative. For me its a marginal amount total ... irrelevant to dedicate a SB slot. Even more with Leyline of Sanctity completely forgotten by most players


This does not change the fact that it happened. A card like Void Snare is generally a card that I run as a catch all for whatever problematic permanent my opponent might present me with game 1. And it did its job here.

"happened" and "did its job" is key. We can say the same about Diminishing Returns. The value of card is waxing and waning with the metagame and one of the mayor points of VS was having it when Leyline was common in sideboards, so we didn't need to board Chain of Vapor (another card which did its job, but isn't good atm)


It's not a very reliable strategy to rely on exactly a turn 1 kill in this matchup when I'm on the draw. It's not a big deal to wish for Snare on turn 2 and then kill turn 3 starting the turn with Void Snare on Teeg. That stuff comes up regularly when playing against decks with 5 copies of Teeg in the main, I don't see why it's wrong to have an out to that. Grapeshot costs 1 extra mana which can be a huge deal.

Elves play discard (Cabal Therapy & Thoughtseize), so sitting on the VS is tricky. Mind that there is a maximum of 1 out of three games where you CAN be on the draw with no solution for Teeg in the 60 and in this single game you can still be fastee than your opponent. Its a matter of odds versus SB space


Yes. Void Snare cost 2 mana the turn I went off, but the active thorn would have cost infinitely more and I would not have been able to play through it before his random spaghettis killed me.

Its just that I cannot remember having encountered a situation against eldrazi where I could have wished for a VS and acually win with it next turn. Thats all


I face that stuff a lot because those people are always at the same local that I attend.

In that case you could play Deathmark and achieve even better results. Building Sideboards for Local metagames is totally different from the generic sideboard we usually discuss here


Everyone plays 4 Chalices in their Eldrazi decks, but not all of them play 4 Thorn. The list that just won the BOM this weekend had zero Thorns main. Some people play like 2. Killing 2 Chalices (one for 1, one for 0) for 2+2 mana is one of the very few ways to beat a turn 1 double chalice draw. Pulverize is also possible, but as I said, the mana situation is too unreliable for my taste.

You could board Ancient Grudge if that is a recurring local problem or fancy stuff like Culling Scales :)

[d0nkey]

It's weird, everytime I post here and I read the responses it makes me never want to post again.


Weird indeed...

I see Burning Wish as a toolbox card. I want my toolbox to have as many tools as possible in it. I also play Meltdown, Void Snare and Grapeshot.

I would also agree that the idea of giving up fringe matchups to have a better sideboard vs the more popular decks is a better idea. I just don't care. I'm willing to bet if someone worked out the math, it wouldn't affect the win/loss all that much.

I also play Diminishing Returns because sometimes I just fuck up and need to spin to win.

[Lemnear]

Weird indeed...

I see Burning Wish as a toolbox card. I want my toolbox to have as many tools as possible in it. I also play Meltdown, Void Snare and Grapeshot.

I would also agree that the idea of giving up fringe matchups to have a better sideboard vs the more popular decks is a better idea. I just don't care. I'm willing to bet if someone worked out the math, it wouldn't affect the win/loss all that much.

I also play Diminishing Returns because sometimes I just fuck up and need to spin to win.

Then I recommend to add at least Hull Breach, Revoke Existance, Reverent Silence, TimeSpiral, Doomsday, Reforge The Souls, Bribery, TeleminPerformance and SlaughterGames too and remove the crappy Abrupt Decays eating up the toolbox space

[Final Fortune]

In all fairness, a lot of Reanimator players name Black instead of Red game 1, because it's not obvious we're playing TES instead of ANT to them unless they Duress and see Rite of Flames, Burning Wish or Chrome Mox; and even in the case of Burning Wish and Chrome Mox I've still had people put me on ANT.

I mean look at the number of people who have SBed in RIP vs TES in tournament reports, if people can make such an obvious mistake game 2 then I think it's fair to assume they can make an honest mistake game 1.

I think Void Snare is a fair enough card to play vs fringe hate, if you don't want to go the extra Warrens or PIF/Tendrils route. I like just being able to SB it in if nothing else.

[Lemnear]

In all fairness, a lot of Reanimator players name Black instead of Red game 1, because it's not obvious we're playing TES instead of ANT to them unless they Duress and see Rite of Flames, Burning Wish or Chrome Mox; and even in the case of Burning Wish and Chrome Mox I've still had people put me on ANT.

I mean look at the number of people who have SBed in RIP vs TES in tournament reports, if people can make such an obvious mistake game 2 then I think it's fair to assume they can make an honest mistake game 1.

I think Void Snare is a fair enough card to play vs fringe hate, if you don't want to go the extra Warrens or PIF/Tendrils route. I like just being able to SB it in if nothing else.

depends on if we talk local metagames or generic tournaments. Should we expect the same opponent to make the same mistake every week to justify VS? Just to get it right: I have no problem with VS as safety net even if I personally, don't think its worth the spot and therefore chopped it. Its just irritating to ground the arguments for VS as being irreplaceable on crucial opponent mistakes as well as decks/cards without metagame presence in the context of a SCG open or the like.

We as a commumity should gear the 75 according to the actual metagame and I can't see us covering every deck with 0,26% metagame presence with dedicated SB tools, rarher than adressing the common ones with actual sideboard cards. We came a long way to slim down the Wishboard over the last 5 years to the core of ToA/EtW/DP/PIF with plenty of space to fight back the metagame with actual sideboard cards. I can remember times with double the amount of wishboard space.

[Izor]

Even in my LGS people never know what I play, because I switch between ANT, TNT and TES all the time and never give away info before the tourneys.

A lot of cards almost become hit or miss if you don't know what variant of Storm you're playing against. A lot of decks have either Iona, Meddling Mages or Cabal Therapies and all of them are a guessing game when they're blind. I've had Meddling Mages on IT against me and next turn I Wish-Massacred their board away. I've also had them name Wish when I had zero in my 75. Most people I think would agree that black is by far the safest blind name with Iona against an unknown Storm opponent. If simply due to the fact that it looks incredibly dumb to put it on Red and get killed via AN next turn. If you put it on black and they end up bouncing it with Wish into Snare you at least made them go out of their way to beat you.

This is mostly about the Reanimator matchup though. Against Dredge you realistically won't ever beat a resolved Iona because 1) They'll most likely have enough Zombies and Ichorids to present a 1 turn clock and turn off any ETW lines, 2) If they were smart they Therapied you for BWish and then put Iona on Black or on whatever shuts down your current hand the most. I've only managed to beat a resolved Iona against Dredge once, so it's not representative.

[Final Fortune]

I don't think our SBs are at the point where 1 card here or there makes a significant difference on cutting post-board business, 4 Decay 2 Hurkyl's 2 Duress is already quite a payload as it is. From a principled point of view I can understand where you're comming from, but from a practical point of view what are the 2 slots for Massacre and Void Snare preventing us from metagaming against with more post-board business? I mean I like to screw around with the +1 Tendril/PIF, +2 Empty the Warrens etc. but nothing that's used in those slots otherwise is particularly pivotal or anything. If people want to run a miser's Telemin Performance, Diminishing Returns, Meltdown, Pulverize, Void Snare, Massacre, Reverent Silence, Reanimate or whatever I think you've got to cut them a bit of slack.

[Zooligan]

As Bryant said, Snare is there to remove stuff we can't win through otherwise, especially game 1 when we don't have Decays yet. A few of the most common things I've done with it in the past include:

- Bounce a Game 1 turn 2 Gaddock Teeg from Maverick/Elves.



Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down




Wait a second Lemnear. Are you saying you always combo off G1 T1 against Elves and never see a Teeg T2? Or are you saying if you see Teeg T2 you just fold since you didn't go off T1?

[Bryant Cook]

Wait a second Lemnear. Are you saying you always combo off G1 T1 against Elves and never see a Teeg T2? Or are you saying if you see Teeg T2 you just fold since you didn't go off T1?


Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down ... and Grapeshot!


I often edit quotes to make my points more relevant.

[d0nkey]

Then I recommend to add at least Hull Breach, Revoke Existance, Reverent Silence, TimeSpiral, Doomsday, Reforge The Souls, Bribery, TeleminPerformance and SlaughterGames too and remove the crappy Abrupt Decays eating up the toolbox space

This post shows exactly why nobody wants to engage in a conversation with you.

[Jesture]

This post shows exactly why nobody wants to engage in a conversation with you.

Might just be me, but I'd rather read what Lemnear has to say about T.E.S. than what others have to say about Lemnear.



I would also agree that the idea of giving up fringe matchups to have a better sideboard vs the more popular decks is a better idea. I just don't care.

You give up a lot of deckbuilding credibility when you acknowledge that someone else's plan is better, but you simply don't care.


I also play Diminishing Returns because sometimes I just fuck up and need to spin to win.

Or when you're building your sideboard to account for your suboptimal plays.

[d0nkey]

Might just be me, but I'd rather read what Lemnear has to say about T.E.S. than what others have to say about Lemnear.



You give up a lot of deckbuilding credibility when you acknowledge that someone else's plan is better, but you simply don't care.



Or when you're building your sideboard to account for your suboptimal plays.


I never claimed to have deckbuilding credibility. The point is that yes, removing tools from the toolbox to strengthen more common matchups is probably a better plan. It doesn't mean that having the extra tools is a stupid idea, like some people seem to think. It also isn't necessary to mock people who choose to build their sideboards to match their playstyle. Bryant, Lem, et all are obviously superior pilots since I play infrequently. So maximizing their common matchups makes sense. Where as I don't keep up on the meta of legacy enough to care about maximizing those matchups and I'd prefer to have more tools to deal with things I didn't see coming.

But thanks for your 2 cents. I'll add that to my piggy bank.

I mean, it's not as though I'm Pelikanudo and telling everyone to follow my suboptimal path. At least I recognize it. I just don't see the small percentage increase at the cost of reducing my toolbox to be worth it for me. Your mileage may vary.

[Lemnear]

I never claimed to have deckbuilding credibility. The point is that yes, removing tools from the toolbox to strengthen more common matchups is probably a better plan. It doesn't mean that having the extra tools is a stupid idea, like some people seem to think.

The space for these extra tools is just taking away potential space for neccessary answer to Eldrazi and such, thats all I wanted to hint at in the context of large tournaments. I just pointed out, that having answers to Enchantress and their potential sideboard (for example), might isn't the thing to take care of when deciding on a 75 to bring to a SCG Open. In a local environment, people can sure go crazy on SB tech. Just please don't make arguments for cards based on essentially non-existent decks/SB cards, guys


It also isn't necessary to mock people who choose to build their sideboards to match their playstyle.

Maybe its the cynic in me, playing the game for close to two decades, but I am not convinced "playstyle" is actually a thing in this game. "Mindset" is more fitting if you talk about your desire to be prepared for everything


Bryant, Lem, et all are obviously superior pilots since I play infrequently. So maximizing their common matchups makes sense. Where as I don't keep up on the meta of legacy enough to care about maximizing those matchups and I'd prefer to have more tools to deal with things I didn't see coming.

Don, I think you can work around a lot of random shit you might encounter even without dedicated solutions. Mind that we factor a lot of random stuff you can encounter, by promoting generic answers instead of specialized one for the SB slots to cover more matchups. You can see it in things like removing stuff like Pyroclasm or CoV for the 4th Decay which is less efficient, but with broader application as its useable against Chalice/Counterbalance/Hatebear instead of the either/or of other cards.


I mean, it's not as though I'm Pelikanudo and telling everyone to follow my suboptimal path. At least I recognize it.

I lol'd

[d0nkey]

Then I recommend to add at least Hull Breach, Revoke Existance, Reverent Silence, TimeSpiral, Doomsday, Reforge The Souls, Bribery, TeleminPerformance and SlaughterGames too and remove the crappy Abrupt Decays eating up the toolbox space


This is the comment I had an issue with. Just because I play a meltdown doesn't mean I'm going to remove my 4x Abrupt Decay to hold these tools when a Void Snare and Meltdown cover most of those cases. It's not like I have a history of offering up dumb suggestions to warrant that.

Hell, I have kept Grapeshot since the beginning too. But when it was suggested to remove it, I never argued with the reasoning for removing it. It made sense, but doesn't mean we all have to follow suit.

Metas are different from area to area. In Seattle, there are several good players that play D&T. When Massacre was moved out of the sideboard, I kept mine in for this reason. It doesn't make me wrong for keeping it in. At the time D&T was being played less and less, but in Seattle, there was a guy who did play it and if you were going to T8 an event, there was a good chance you'd have to go through him so I kept it in.

I never said that a larger toolbox is better. It's how I want to play the deck though and it doesn't make it wrong. Slightly less-optimal perhaps, but not wrong.

[Vandalize]

I know this topic comes and goes with time, but we all have to bring it up at some point, don't we?

In today's meta: post Treasure Cruise and DTT bans, Eldrazi being the aggro threat, Miracles at the top (as usual), Grixis replacing Canadian in the tier list, how good is Orim's Chant/Silence mainboard and sideboard Carpet of Flowers? The manabase has been updating to support the Duress/Therapy approach for a while now, dusting off those Gemstone Mines is a bad idea?

[Lemnear]

This is the comment I had an issue with. Just because I play a meltdown doesn't mean I'm going to remove my 4x Abrupt Decay to hold these tools when a Void Snare and Meltdown cover most of those cases. It's not like I have a history of offering up dumb suggestions to warrant that.

Hell, I have kept Grapeshot since the beginning too. But when it was suggested to remove it, I never argued with the reasoning for removing it. It made sense, but doesn't mean we all have to follow suit.

Metas are different from area to area. In Seattle, there are several good players that play D&T. When Massacre was moved out of the sideboard, I kept mine in for this reason. It doesn't make me wrong for keeping it in. At the time D&T was being played less and less, but in Seattle, there was a guy who did play it and if you were going to T8 an event, there was a good chance you'd have to go through him so I kept it in.

I never said that a larger toolbox is better. It's how I want to play the deck though and it doesn't make it wrong. Slightly less-optimal perhaps, but not wrong.

Depends if you feel perfectly prepared for Miracles, Eldrazi, D&T, etc with these 4 Decays only or want more boardable hate instead of wishable one which fails to answer stuff like Thorn because of cost. The topic extends to creatures as well if we ask if we feel fine about Meddling Mage, Canonist, Thalia, Teeg, if our only solutions are the Decays. You decided it's not and included Grapeshot and/or Massacre and point to the Seattle area with several good D&T players which is totally fine like I said before, because your numbers back up your decision. Please mind, that this is different from the "I may play against an extremely fringe deck and want a wishboard for that" or "my wishboard-tech requires my opponent to make critical mistakes". IF the numbers of these fancy techs have a negative impact on your ability to fight back common decks by cluttering your sideboard, i consider it a problem.

[Lemnear]

I know this topic comes and goes with time, but we all have to bring it up at some point, don't we?

In today's meta: post Treasure Cruise and DTT bans, Eldrazi being the aggro threat, Miracles at the top (as usual), Grixis replacing Canadian in the tier list, how good is Orim's Chant/Silence mainboard and sideboard Carpet of Flowers? The manabase has been updating to support the Duress/Therapy approach for a while now, dusting off those Gemstone Mines is a bad idea?

Unless conditional counters like Spell Snare return to the metagame and the number of Tempo decks & Wasteland drastically drops, i don't see a chance to return to Rainbow lands or O.Chant/Silence. Carpet has no place if you already run 40% mana and your opponents can opperate on two lands like Grixis

[Pelikanudo]

Fuck the hell im not telling anybody to take my path... I am likely the most TES experienced player of course apart from Bryant and emidlin and one thing ive learned is to reach my own conclusions and make them independant of sometimes silly things iv read around here... This is the unique suggestion i can give to some that wants to master TES... hear and read things but have your own conclusion... F.e. im the one playing pulverize 2 v.i. and 1 badlands...

[Lemnear]

Fuck the hell im not telling anybody to take my path... I am likely the most TES experienced player of course apart from Bryant and emidlin and one thing ive learned is to reach my own conclusions and make them independant of sometimes silly things iv read around here... This is the unique suggestion i can give to some that wants to master TES... hear and read things but have your own conclusion... F.e. im the one playing pulverize 2 v.i. and 1 badlands...

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=241990&type=card

[Final Fortune]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=241990&type=card

From the man who brought you such hits as Rain of Filth, Crystal Vein and City of Traitors comes a hypocritical post of a playable card in TES!

[Lemnear]

From the man who brought you such hits as Rain of Filth, Crystal Vein and City of Traitors comes a hypocritical post of a playable card in TES!

Yeah, the man who brought you Probe/Therapy/EtW and fetch/Dual manabase, delivered ideas to accelerate the deck during a time no one played Wasteland to be faster than TC/DTT. At least I elaborate my choices. ;)

[Pelikanudo]

Yeah, the man who brought you Probe/Therapy/EtW and fetch/Dual manabase, delivered ideas to accelerate the deck during a time no one played Wasteland to be faster than TC/DTT. At least I elaborate my choices. ;)

You weren't.
Bahamut brouhgt these ideas which have been the ones i appreciatw most. Sure until dark petirion he was likely the unique playing 3 b.w. joke

[Lemnear]

You weren't.
Bahamut brouhgt these ideas which have been the ones i appreciatw most. Sure until dark petirion he was likely the unique playing 3 b.w. joke

Show me the proof for the claim that he was the first with 4 Therapy in MD, cutting white completely and playing w/o a single goldland.

[Bahamuth]

Show me the proof for the claim that he was the first with 4 Therapy in MD, cutting white completely and playing w/o a single goldland.

We weren't. We did start running Probes (and mainboard EtW? Not sure) way before everyone else though. Here's a list from GP Amsterdam. http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51165

Lots of Stifles and Spell Snares around back then, so we were still on gold lands and Chants. We also made TNT, but that never ran Probe's I believe back then. I'm not so sure anymore. We don't really play much Legacy anymore and haven't for a while.

[Lemnear]

@Peli

Evolution comes slow and the MB EtW or Probes do sure have not grown in my Garden. Probe was in TES established even before i was annoying you all with the 4 Therapies and cut of white as a reaction of the vanishing of Snare and the establishing of multi-angle hate in the format following the original Innistrad powercreep, the omnipresence of tempo strategies, Wasteland and a new generation of hatebears.

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, the man who brought you Probe/Therapy/EtW and fetch/Dual manabase, delivered ideas to accelerate the deck during a time no one played Wasteland to be faster than TC/DTT. At least I elaborate my choices. ;)


I'm sorry but that is completely self agrandizing nonsense,

1) You didn't bring ETW to TES's main deck, it had been there before Ad Nauseam replaced the Tendril/IGG/DimRet/ETW package.
2) You didn't bring Gitaxian Probe to TES, it was already being played in ANT and filtered over.
3) You didn't bring Cabal Therapy to TES, it was already being played in ANT and filtered over to TES when I convinced the thread to remove Silence.
4) You didn't bring the Fetch/Dual manabase to TES, it was already being played in ANT and filtered over to TES shortly after I convinced the thread to remove Silence (actually it was one of my main arguments for removing Silence in the first place).

So you're basically taking credit for something that had previously been a standard in the deck, something that every one was playing on day 1 and stuff I advocated for ... wow man ... it's not like I'm claiming the whole move away from Silence and Gemstone Mine towards discard and Dual/Fetch was my unique brain child considering I was just iterating between versions of TES and TnT at the time, but it's pretty ridiculous to see you make those claims for yourself when the post history and PMs clearly show otherwise.

I understand there's a certain "elitism" in this thread, but considering how Simian Spirit Guide, fetchlands, Silence, Mystical Tutor, the # of lands, all discard, fetch/duals and the # of Chrome Mox had all been rejected and then adopted shortly after kind of shows the importance of other people contributing to the thread even if 99% of those contributions turn out to be garbage or go in and out of relevance. Even cards that never had their day in the sun like Autumn's Veil I think were actually the better choice then considering we were playing Bayou at the time, and there's nothing about it that seems really unplayable to me even now.

So dismount from the high horse man, because all I've seen you do is use hyperbole and slip questions in the last week just because people want a universal answer to fringe hate or dedicated hate vs D&T and Eldrazi or another storm engine in a deck we were SBing Bayou in what, just the last couple of months? I mean maybe stuff like Pulverize and cutting Swamp for the 3rd /Red land wont work out, but at least people are trying to address the issue. And frankly I'm a little dumb founded why people are hating on Diminishing Returns when they are playing 3 Chrome Mox and it's probably one of the best storm engines vs Eldrazi or anything else without Islands, I mean we've been down these roads before. Hell, we're all just splitting really fine hairs in deck building at this point and should probably dedicated more time to actually reviewing useful shit like mulligans, match ups or vods.

[Lemnear]

3) You didn't bring Cabal Therapy to TES, it was already being played in ANT and filtered over to TES when I convinced the thread to remove Silence.
4) You didn't bring the Fetch/Dual manabase to TES, it was already being played in ANT and filtered over to TES shortly after I convinced the thread to remove Silence (actually it was one of my main arguments for removing Silence in the first place).

lol. Wishful thinking


It's impossible to deny the unholy triforce of EtW + G.Probe + Cabal Therapy in this deck and what's one of the reasons I maxed the Therapies. The other is that boarding discard for discard in creature-matchups feels quite retarded like my previous running of Pyroclasm alongside Grapeshot. A third reason is, that moving cardtype Independent discard to the MB free'd one more SB for me so I gained additional edges against Miracles, Counter-overloads and combo

Written @ 10-25-2013 11:02 AM

I kept annoying the thread which made Bryant post this:


We get it dude. You love Cabal Therapy.

However, Cabal Therapy while is very good isn't always the card you need. Which is why I'm running a Thoughtseize as well, sometimes you don't have the Gitaxian Probe to just know what they have and you need to cast it turn one. Against Miracles I've seen Cannonist and Counterbalance postboard. Both are awful to see turn two, these are situations where Thoughtseize is just better than Therapy.

Written @ 11-12-2013 01:59 AM

During 11-16-2013 you even said this about 4x Cabal Therapy:


And that's the problem with 4xCabal Therapy, considering ANT already plays 4xCabal Therapy the smart(er) aggro-control players are differentiating their disruption, permission and hate in order to make Cabal Therapy unreliable, Brainstorm aside, I don't think people are going to play 3 Meddling Mage as opposed to 1 Vendillion Clique, 1 Meddling Mage and 1 Ethersworn Cannonist or 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Daze as oppoed to 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Daze, 3 Spell Snare etc. considering how abundant and equivalent a lot of cards are at their roll in eternal formats.

Leyline of Sanctity forced us to play Silence over Orim's Chant, I think smarter SBing will force us not to be overly reliant on Cabal Therapy.

...and this during the 11-11-2013


I think it's important not to get polarized on disruption, 4 Silence, 4 Cabal Therapy has an informational disadvantage game one 50% of the time despite being strong there after, where 4 Silence, 2 Cabal Therapy, 2 Thoughtseize can keep 1 Cabal Therapy in the MD, 1 Cabal Therapy in the SB and then swap out the 1 Cabal Therapy in the SB for a Thoughtseize if need be and you don't have to worry about being on the wrong side of a coin flip.

I may end up going for 3 Silence, 2 Cabal Therapy, 2 Thoughtseize with a SB Cabal Therapy and Xantid Swarms tho'.

TL;DR: you are a clown


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W47kV8Gz6g

[Pelikanudo]

Show me the proof for the claim that he was the first with 4 Therapy in MD, cutting white completely and playing w/o a single goldland.

I took this as a nostalgic memories:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=661997&viewfull=1#post661997

Thnks to Bahamut and emidlin!

You can read from here till 50 page... I also recommend you boys from here to read its interesting.. There were some good discussions... I remember i was anti g.p.... Or etw main... Come on no one thought on that... The natural inclusion of tjerapy was evident then.

Were you Lem bornt by that era? Joke.

Apart. Today top16 in MKM madrid. Was a shame... 6-2finally.
Some notes:
Well CoS was in deed a very specificcard... Today even didnt faced miracles. So ill fill again with moee discard or xantids
The looses were omnitell in which SoLwas shit. And a likw of control . my mistake in here wasno boarding in decays 42nd game thinking it was other..

[Dark Ritual]

Fuck the hell im not telling anybody to take my path... I am likely the most TES experienced player of course apart from Bryant and emidlin and one thing ive learned is to reach my own conclusions and make them independant of sometimes silly things iv read around here... This is the unique suggestion i can give to some that wants to master TES... hear and read things but have your own conclusion... F.e. im the one playing pulverize 2 v.i. and 1 badlands...

ROFL. If you had half of the experience that Bryant had you would actually be doing something in tournaments. Your conclusions differ from Bryant decklist wise I would wager and he's better with this deck than anyone else because he plays the deck a lot and he invented and reinvented the deck numerous times. In short, you're wrong. You have never once impressed me with anything you've posted in this or the other TES threads.

[Bahamuth]

I took this as a nostalgic memories:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=661997&viewfull=1#post661997


Whoa I don't even remember this.

[Pelikanudo]

Whoa I don't even remember this.

Yeah man, from this page to 50 you and emidlin are just trying to convice people specifically to Bryant to play G.P. + EtW + (Therapy or disruption) main...
some pages more advanced there is me not convinced at all about those G.P....trying to arguing...



ROFL. If you had half of the experience that Bryant had you would actually be doing something in tournaments.
.
im the kind of man that plays magic as a hobby, and really dont play much...
ive done something in torunaments - the few i assist, by here the most great thing is the MKM.. i just dont travel much... today i top16!



Your conclusions differ from Bryant decklist wise I would wager and he's better with this deck than anyone else because he plays the deck a lot and he invented and reinvented the deck numerous times.
In short, you're wrong.
.

because one person has played the deck as the most means that is the best with the deck? i completely disagree. one can just play magic and becomes better than other with less experience. EDIT: Again see link where bahamut teachs why TES needs to have G.P. and Therapy and EtW main to Bryant... i believe Bryant has much more flight hours with TES and Bahamut..



You have never once impressed me with anything you've posted in this or the other TES threads.

it is ok, that was never my goal
one thing I believe i've got is to contribute to at least make some people to not decrease its C.M. number to less than 3...
just read the link i posted above and see how peoplee like bahamut tries to convice - and do not dismiss - that G.P. is in deed good...

[Bryant Cook]

You guys care way too much about credibility.

Also, Bahamuth's list was before it's time. The problem was if you remember the metagame back then it was full of Stifle & Spell Snare where Silence absolutely demolished that match-up. As the metagame shifted over the years his proposed list turned out to be pretty solid.

But in the end, who gives a fuck? Let's work on making the best end product we can and stop acting like 13 year old girls.

[Togores]

The last 2 pages:
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/stephen-colbert-popcorn-gif.jpg

[Bahamuth]

You guys care way too much about credibility.

Also, Bahamuth's list was before it's time. The problem was if you remember the metagame back then it was full of Stifle & Spell Snare where Silence absolutely demolished that match-up. As the metagame shifted over the years his proposed list turned out to be pretty solid.

But in the end, who gives a fuck? Let's work on making the best end product we can and stop acting like 13 year old girls.

Nono you don't understand. I was 'the man who brought you Probe/Therapy/EtW and fetch/Dual manabase'.

[Lemnear]

Nono you don't understand. I was 'the man who brought you Probe/Therapy/EtW and fetch/Dual manabase'.

You popped the idea way ahead of its time, but I have to agree with the last sentence as a standalone lol. Wasn't aware of that 2012 post

In any way, the claim of Final Fortune that the Probe/Therapy/EtW and fetch/Dual manabase was "established" by him and that "he" pushed the shift and the removal of Silence, is pure bollocks proven by the thread history I quoted

[Final Fortune]

You popped the idea way ahead of its time, but I have to agree with the last sentence as a standalone lol. Wasn't aware of that 2012 post

In any way, the claim of Final Fortune that the Probe/Therapy/EtW and fetch/Dual manabase was "established" by him and that "he" pushed the shift and the removal of Silence, is pure bollocks proven by the thread history I quoted

You're delusional, I never claimed Probe/Therapy/ETW and Fetch/Dual was established by me, I said Probe was already being universally played in Storm as soon as it was released, Cabal Therapy was already being played in ANT (an all discard based deck), Empty the Warrens had already been played in the main deck before Ad Nauseam was ever printed and the Fetch/Dual manabase was a consequece of cutting White, playing an all discard based deck and essentially merging TES with ANT. At no point did I ever claim to have invented the internet Al Gore, but if you want "proof" I was the one who convinced Bryant to cut Silence then you can eat it;


You should enjoy this, because to be honest, it rarely happens... but I was wrong and you were right. I'd prefer you keep this to yourself until the weekend is over, I'm playing the new list at the SCG:Invitational. It feature's zero white. I was playing in a fifty person event two-three weeks ago and lost three consecutive rounds to where if Silence was a little more proactive I would've been fine. You'll also see that my list features a Telemin Performance, I'm not exactly thrilled about this. I still dislike the idea of playing a 5cc sorcery as an answer to a match-up with taxing effects but with only a single slot it may be the best option. Anyway, here's the list. Bask in your glory:

4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Tropical Island
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Telemin Performance (Or a second Chain of Vapor)

If Bryant is the official flag bearer of the deck, then conversation fucking over. None of these ideas were ever "original" in Storm, and you can credit Bahamut if you want to for all I care, but taking the credit for yourself is just laughable. This is even you revisiting the idea because of what I was arguing at the time, so we all intermitantly adopted, abandoned and readopted the idea at varrying intervals depending on what we were facing at the moment.


I reviewed your latest post on all-discard and aside from Miracles I think the current metagame post-Stifle indeed opens up the possibility to pick up that idea once more even if my attempt in November was a failure, possibly because of me being to biased because of the local, specialized hate. I'll pick up my latest all-discard list with 4 Gemstone, 4 fetches, 3 Thoughtseize for a bigger testing round again. Would you mind sharing your idea/list here? I would be helpful to have a second opinion on that

[Zooligan]

Quote Originally Posted by Zooligan View Post
Wait a second Lemnear. Are you saying you always combo off G1 T1 against Elves and never see a Teeg T2? Or are you saying if you see Teeg T2 you just fold since you didn't go off T1?
Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down ... and Grapeshot!
Quote Originally Posted by Zooligan View Post
I often edit quotes to make my points more relevant.

a) I didn't edit, I truncated. I didn't think that portion of the quote was relevant as everyone knows what Grapeshot is for, it was the bullshit throwaway words preceding the words "... and Grapeshot" that I wanted some clarification on. Editing would be what you did above ascribing a direct quote to me which I did not make. Another word for it would be libel. Dictionary.com will help you with your English definitions.
b) you seem to have missed my point entirely, the point being that Lemnear's words (an actual quote, see a) above) "Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down" implies that TES is somehow impervious to hate coming down before you can go off and if it does, the pilot did something incorrect.

Look, I know you don't like me because I called you out on the Articles section of your website not working correctly (Which I see you are now redesigning, btw. You are welcome.), but I do have the utmost respect for you as a TES strategist. Perhaps even in the real world you are a great guy and nice to talk to. Your forum decor comes off abrasive. Just letting you know, like your Articles section, chit be broken.

[Lemnear]

blub

Cute. Keep quoting stuff out of (temporal) context.

If we ever move to 2-3 mainboard Thoughtseize, bet I give you credit "for mentioning it first". We however do not talk about "mentioning" or "testing" Thoughtseize, but about "pushing" 4 Therapy paired with a full Fetchland manabase as a staple build.



b) you seem to have missed my point entirely, the point being that Lemnear's words (an actual quote, see a) above) "Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down" implies that TES is somehow impervious to hate coming down before you can go off and if it does, the pilot did something incorrect.

My point was about that the decks speed is your main weapon fighting such turn 2 or turn 3 hate, but if you can't profit from this natural strength (due to mulligans, unfortunate card configuartions in hand, etc.) there is still a way to get out of some hatebear softlock with the help of the sideboard. You don't HAVE to scoop in case you are not fast enough, given you prepare your sideboard for game 1 outs in case you want to dedicate the space :)

[Bryant Cook]

a) I didn't edit, I truncated. I didn't think that portion of the quote was relevant as everyone knows what Grapeshot is for, it was the bullshit throwaway words preceding the words "... and Grapeshot" that I wanted some clarification on. Editing would be what you did above ascribing a direct quote to me which I did not make. Another word for it would be libel. Dictionary.com will help you with your English definitions.
b) you seem to have missed my point entirely, the point being that Lemnear's words (an actual quote, see a) above) "Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down" implies that TES is somehow impervious to hate coming down before you can go off and if it does, the pilot did something incorrect.

Look, I know you don't like me because I called you out on the Articles section of your website not working correctly (Which I see you are now redesigning, btw. You are welcome.), but I do have the utmost respect for you as a TES strategist. Perhaps even in the real world you are a great guy and nice to talk to. Your forum decor comes off abrasive. Just letting you know, like your Articles section, chit be broken.

You mean cutting off the part of the sentence that was relevant to the conversation? Let's spell it out. "Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down" is apart of the deck's strategy, but if that doesn't work there's Grapeshot for Gaddock Teeg. Acting like his words are ridiculous and you should just fold to Teeg is a poor way to try to prove a point. When he even mentions in the same sentence an answer.

As for my "articles section" perhaps you should watch your tone before I make all of your posts disappear because it's something I can clearly do on this public forum. Because everything here is me and none of it is you.

[kirkusjones]

The last 2 pages:
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/stephen-colbert-popcorn-gif.jpg

https://media.giphy.com/media/ftXvsSyRzKXXG/giphy.gif

[d0nkey]

Yo I pioneered the use of Dark Ritual in this deck

[Ebonclaw]

But in the end, who gives a fuck? Let's work on making the best end product we can and stop acting like 13 year old girls.
Agreed.

I've made some bad suggestions. I've played some suboptimal cards. I held onto DR and Gemstone Mines longer than should have and tried to justify them (though part of it was getting my set of foil gemstones signed and wanting to play them just a little bit.) I've missed obvious lines of play due to reasoning things improperly. I've tried to argue for pet cards because of "my local meta." But you know what? After defending my deck, I tried the suggestions and standards that were in place. And I improved my deck and my game. And that's what we're here for. At the point the deck is right now, it's so honed and tuned that we're basically discussing the best options to deal with specific metagames. If your local meta plays a lot of artifact hate, Pulverize is probably a fine card to play. But when you go up to a wider level than local, that's what the standardized sideboard is meant top address. If you're the only Storm player in your local meta and everyone else is playing Belcher or Oops, maybe Telemin Performance isn't the worst thing in the world for you to include. Show up to an invitational with it though, and you're bound to at least have to defend your choice to a few people. Oftentimes the best way to defend your choice is to let your results speak for themselves.

If I want advice on what my board should look like for an invitational, I'm probably gonna look at whatever Bryant/Lemnear are testing and read about what they're finding is working out. If I want to find some suggestions/solutions for how to beat my local meta, their input is less valuable because they're not familiar with it like they are with a more global meta. Though if I gave them enough information about it, I'm sure I could get some good suggestions. They can be blunt, sometimes brutally so, but I value that. "That's a bad idea. Here's why." "You're using the wrong strategy, you should be doing this instead..."

Ultimately, I don't care who suggested it, I care about the results it posts and the environment it's in. Context is important and I think it needs to be mentioned and discussed before being eschewed more often. I could care less about someone getting great results in their local meta by playing IGG because Force of Will is just a completely foreign concept to that meta for some weird reason. But if someone has to stare down chalice of voice on T1 and Death and Taxes every other game, I'm much more interested in what they're doing, even if it is unconventional. What's the worst thing that happens, I playtest it and it doesn't work and I'm right back to where I started? I tweak my manabase to support Pulverize for local, and then revert it when playing on a larger scale? It's not the worst idea in the world. Innovation doesn't happen without experimentation, but sometimes someone can spot a bad experiment from a mile off, or maybe has a better suggestion because they've been there, and tried that. That's the value of this thread, there's almost always someone who can say "yeah, I've tried that, here's the problem with it."

[Zooligan]

You mean cutting off the part of the sentence that was relevant to the conversation? Let's spell it out. "Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down" is apart of the deck's strategy, but if that doesn't work there's Grapeshot for Gaddock Teeg. Acting like his words are ridiculous and you should just fold to Teeg is a poor way to try to prove a point. When he even mentions in the same sentence an answer.

As for my "articles section" perhaps you should watch your tone before I make all of your posts disappear because it's something I can clearly do on this public forum. Because everything here is me and none of it is you.

In the context of Lemnear's post, his words were ridiculous. Izor was listing some things he commonly did with Void Snare and Lemnear banged into him with ""Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down. ... and Grapeshot". Like playing Void Snare somehow made Izor an asshole who doesn't understand that one of the defining characteristics and draws to play TES are it's speed. We all know Grapeshot is an answer. Using another answer doesn't mean you don't get what TES is about. Hell, I bet even you have bounced a Teeg with Void Snare once or twice, amirite?

As for pulling content, that is exactly what happened last time. You told me the latest articles not showing up on your site was "a you problem" (you meaning me here). All the other posts of me providing evidence of how I could demonstrate it was not just me were deleted, as were the posts of others saying they had the same problem. All evidence of the BC possibly being incorrect were deleted (as i assume this post will be shortly). All that remained was "It is a you problem." So, if you want to pull content and delete posts (or have them deleted or whatever), that is your perogative.

I was just trying to point out a problem with your website. Trying to help you. If I was a client of yours and you talked to me like that when calling a development error to your attention I know what i would do. I can only assume that you conduct yourself differently in the business world than you do here, which further leads me to believe that my character assessment that I communicated to you via PM re the posts disappearing was not incorrect.

Still, love the deck and excited to see further developments of the maindeck and sideboard as the meta changes. Thanks for all your hard work.

[Shaman]

I don't want to go off-topic, but I would like to discuss one thing about TES.

I am having some trouble with three lands not giving me blue mana. I understood the recent switch to bayou maindeck, but I feel this is a high price to pay.

What are your results with this?

[Lemnear]

In the context of Lemnear's post, his words were ridiculous. Izor was listing some things he commonly did with Void Snare and Lemnear banged into him with ""Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down. ... and Grapeshot". Like playing Void Snare somehow made Izor an asshole who doesn't understand that one of the defining characteristics and draws to play TES are it's speed. We all know Grapeshot is an answer. Using another answer doesn't mean you don't get what TES is about. Hell, I bet even you have bounced a Teeg with Void Snare once or twice, amirite?

The justification for VS was Iona @ black (?!), Platinum Angel (?!?!), Gaddock Teeg and more which are not only partly cringeworthy to bring up as a reasoning, but also solved by a more impactful card like Grapeshot (which I picked as example to show that VS is not uncontested). I also was pointing to the speed as a weapon against those plays, because no one hopefully wants to point me that Platinum Angel or Teeg are T1 plays. My points were:

1) VoidSnare/Massacre/etc are NOT uncontested, unique (in its job to get rid of permanents), mandatory or without potential substitutes
2) If it makes sense for battling metagame, running additional toolbox/wishboard cards is fine, but not for an unknown environment as a hail-mary-play (Ruric Thar) or to potentially fix misplays
3) Please no one justify the hail-mary-wishboard cards with ridiculous matchups (Enchantress), gamestates (Iona @ black) or based on cards no one plays these days (Platinum Angel, Leyline, etc.)

again: I did not poke Izor because of choosing to run VS, but because of point 3)


So, if you want to pull content and delete posts (or have them deleted or whatever), that is your perogative.

Bryant can NOT delete posty on TheSource if that was the topic. Sorry to jump in here :/

Edit:

I don't want to go off-topic, but I would like to discuss one thing about TES.

I am having some trouble with three lands not giving me blue mana. I understood the recent switch to bayou maindeck, but I feel this is a high price to pay.

What are your results with this?

Then return to a second Volcanic in place of the Badland. I only run two non-fetch, non-blue lands personally for a while, so I can not really help here

[d0nkey]

My favorite part about this Grapeshot discussion is that for like an entire year it was cut from 'the list' because it wasn't good enough. Now you act like it never left.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't want to go off-topic, but I would like to discuss one thing about TES.

I am having some trouble with three lands not giving me blue mana. I understood the recent switch to bayou maindeck, but I feel this is a high price to pay.

What are your results with this?

I've noticed it in a hand or two, the other option is to have one less "real" sideboard slot. It does matter either way, do what you feel is best.

[Lemnear]

My favorite part about this Grapeshot discussion is that for like an entire year it was cut from 'the list' because it wasn't good enough. Now you act like it never left.

No, I act like the card IS STILL ONE TO CONSIDER. If the main argument for VS is removing creatures like Teeg, we should at least talk about Grapeshot. I am not the biggest fan of GS personally, but I at least remember the card when talking about "solutions for creatures".

I have no idea what kind of fixation some of you have on the list on the website, trying to use it to make a point. You are aware that there is also a section about tested, extending SB cards? Are we supposed to ignore Xantid, Surgical, etc. when talking about how to adress certain issues, just because the cards are not in the list on the website?

[Izor]

I really like the Badlands in this deck, I feel like I fetch it more frequently than the Volc overall. But I also play the Bayou in the side, which leaves me with only 2 lands that don't produce black in the main (I run Swamp, 8 Fetch, Volc, Badlands, 2 Usea).

In TES black mana is much more important than blue mana overall, which is why I have found 2 Volcs to be quite annoying at times. ANT can afford more non-black lands due to Preordains, though you also don't want to end up like Caleb Scherer on Sunday when he naturally drew his 4 non-black lands and couldn't cast any business for the first 5 turns.

[Lemnear]

I really like the Badlands in this deck, I feel like I fetch it more frequently than the Volc overall. But I also play the Bayou in the side, which leaves me with only 2 lands that don't produce black in the main (I run Swamp, 8 Fetch, Volc, Badlands, 2 Usea).

In TES black mana is much more important than blue mana overall, which is why I have found 2 Volcs to be quite annoying at times. ANT can afford more non-black lands due to Preordains, though you also don't want to end up like Caleb Scherer on Sunday when he naturally drew his 4 non-black lands and couldn't cast any business for the first 5 turns.

I found the Badlands mainly relevant in case I draw a hand of U.Sea, Fetch, Discard and Brainstorm, so one can T2 Brainstorm off the U.Sea, Fetch the Badlands to cast discard and still be able to combo off turn 3 with the mentioned BR mana via Badlands & U.Sea.

I think thats a very special scenario where Badlands really shines compared to Volcanic Island. I am not convinced that this is really worth the potential trouble with casting cantrips which comes by having only 10 to 11 blue lands in certain lists. For me there is still a question mark floating over the swamp, given we only run 6 discard spells (prenoard at least) and the [T1 Swamp + Discard; T2 combo] isn't quite THAT common

[Bryant Cook]

I found the Badlands mainly relevant in case I draw a hand of U.Sea, Fetch, Discard and Brainstorm, so one can T2 Brainstorm off the U.Sea, Fetch the Badlands to cast discard and still be able to combo off turn 3 with the mentioned BR mana via Badlands & U.Sea.

I think thats a very special scenario where Badlands really shines compared to Volcanic Island. I am not convinced that this is really worth the potential trouble with casting cantrips which comes by having only 10 to 11 blue lands in certain lists. For me there is still a question mark floating over the swamp, given we only run 6 discard spells (prenoard at least) and the [T1 Swamp + Discard; T2 combo] isn't quite THAT common


Swamp is crucial in match-ups like Death & Taxes and Lands. Especially for Massacre.

As for Badlands, I too use it more than I use Volcanic Island. The scenario you mentioned happens more than you'd think, but there's also the fact that Badlands helps cast Abrupt Decay where Volcanic Island makes me sigh.

[Lemnear]

Swamp is crucial in match-ups like Death & Taxes and Lands. Especially for Massacre.

As for Badlands, I too use it more than I use Volcanic Island. The scenario you mentioned happens more than you'd think, but there's also the fact that Badlands helps cast Abrupt Decay where Volcanic Island makes me sigh.

I doubt Badlands works as an argument for Decay in terms of Black mana, if you play Swamp, 2 Seas and 7 Fetchlands and will drop more lands in general as these matchups where we board decays take longer postboard. Being stuck with Cantrips in hand because one only has non-island cards, is miserable if you want to reach T.hold.

I still favor to open my games with a Volcanic rather than an U.Sea, if I have the choice and option

[Izor]

I found the Badlands mainly relevant in case I draw a hand of U.Sea, Fetch, Discard and Brainstorm, so one can T2 Brainstorm off the U.Sea, Fetch the Badlands to cast discard and still be able to combo off turn 3 with the mentioned BR mana via Badlands & U.Sea.

I think thats a very special scenario where Badlands really shines compared to Volcanic Island. I am not convinced that this is really worth the potential trouble with casting cantrips which comes by having only 10 to 11 blue lands in certain lists.

I agree with Bryant, I also often fetch Badlands as my second dual to go with Usea. We only plays 8 blue spells (less than that after sideboarding) and with the majority of my hands I'm more comfortable having Usea+Badlands than Usea+Volc in play on turn two. Sometimes you want to cast a discard spell followed by Dark Rit into combo on turn 2. Sometimes you have two Dark Rits and your opponent is threatening to stop your combo by countering the first one which leaves you unable to cast the second one, etc.

Also, I wouldn't even want to start a discussion about which one is 'better'. Both Volc and Badlands are better in specific scenarios, none of them is generally the better card in the deck, so I want access to both. I'm not advocating running 2 Badlands but I'm also convinced I don't want 2 Volcs. You'll draw 1-land hands with Badlands that leave you unable to cast your cantrips, but you'll also draw cantrip-less hands with Volc as your only land and a potential kill off of DarkRit+Infernal+LED. Either situation is bad.


For me there is still a question mark floating over the swamp, given we only run 6 discard spells (prenoard at least) and the [T1 Swamp + Discard; T2 combo] isn't quite THAT common

I run the Swamp for the same reasons as Bryant, but I agree with you that it sometimes feels odd to have it and I'm not 100% convinced it's right in TES. I think it's more common to go turn 1 discard into turn 2 cantrip + combo than what you said above, which is why I often feel like I have to get a Usea instead of a Swamp anyway turn 1. Turn 1 Swamp also won't let you cast cantrip into red rituals at all on turn 2 unless you also have a Petal. In general if you keep a hand that has both a cantrip and a RoF, you really can't fetch the Swamp at all without slowing yourself down significantly. It almost feels like playing basics without compromising your mana too much is a luxury only ANT has, because they have a much higher chance to be able to go off without any initial red mana.

[Bryant Cook]

I doubt Badlands works as an argument for Decay in terms of Black mana, if you play Swamp, 2 Seas and 7 Fetchlands and will drop more lands in general as these matchups where we board decays take longer postboard. Being stuck with Cantrips in hand because one only has non-island cards, is miserable if you want to reach T.hold.

I still favor to open my games with a Volcanic rather than an U.Sea, if I have the choice and option

I 100% had to mulligan a hand I wanted to keep over the weekend because it was a one land Volcanic Island hand with an Abrupt Decay in it. If it was Underground Sea, I would've snap kept. This is a real issue. Why do I want to reach Threshold? What does that have to do with anything?

[Lemnear]

I run the Swamp for the same reasons as Bryant, but I agree with you that it sometimes feels odd to have it and I'm not 100% convinced it's right in TES. I think it's more common to go turn 1 discard into turn 2 cantrip + combo than what you said above, which is why I often feel like I have to get a Usea instead of a Swamp anyway turn 1. Turn 1 Swamp also won't let you cast cantrip into red rituals at all on turn 2 unless you also have a Petal. In general if you keep a hand that has both a cantrip and a RoF, you really can't fetch the Swamp at all without slowing yourself down significantly. It almost feels like playing basics without compromising your mana too much is a luxury only ANT has, because they have a much higher chance to be able to go off without any initial red mana.

To elaborate: the T1 Volcanic roots on me usually casting cantrips before the discard unless I am on the draw and know I face Counterbalance or a combo deck. I dislike T1 discard and not being able to kill T2. I would not want to start sculpting my hand after blowing the discard spell and giving my opponents the time to find permission again. Even worse it is if you are on the play against unknown and fire your Duress/Therapy(blindcall FoW for example) into D&T, not only indicating clearly what you are playing but also wasting time and cards without your discard finding a target. Its so thankful to see opposing openers which tell you immediately that you can kill them even without checking their hand or if sandbagging your discard might be better. By cantripping first you can mimic URx Delver or SneakShow while getting more options rather than throwing your Duress against a hand with creatures or stuff you don't care for anyways.

[Pelikanudo]

I've been using recently this manabase:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19494&iddeck=148318

As If i were to play a fetch manabase this was going the 1st candidate as always stated...

which has been good for me in the last 2 torunaments.

Having in mind the 12 lands manabase all produced Blue, for example, the current Bryant Manabase has 2 less blue producers = total 10 blue producers. = shit.
Also, Sure the manabase only has access to 8 Green and now Xantid isnt played, but i found scenarios in which I needed green and simply I didnt access to because of playing 9 Green producers - a point I just dont like. 8 < 9

the 14th land in side - bayou was sided in vs RUG - which i faced twice - I thought i was going to have some troubles regarding stifleToMyFetch, but this didnt happen so great!
regarding Lands and D&T - as I have never had issues in destroying these archetypes even using Gemstone - now I have even less problems even not having Swamp - also great!

Regarding Grapeshot - I recognize I took this card out because of Void Snare - as this card seem like a Catch All - but reading the nostalgic article from Bryant and remembering old ages of G.Shot I again included it in my side and - sure the card has won me some match ups... I dont even play Massacre. was a mistake to take tghis card out and will never leave again my side....

some time ago i play now Pulverize in my side and because of this and because i wanted to test CoS i cahnged my manabase, now I dont play CoS, im not sure if go back to my old gemstones bulld and having my 7th discard in base... I think by the moment i'll increase in my side the number of discard and I'll just add to my base for 2nd and 3rd games when needed. but im not sure if the low count of discard affected my S&S and Omnitell match ups. issue that worries me a little...

Apart, well I just to clarify that: yes, no matter who thought on that thing or other or invented such idea regarding TES or likes. BUT the those improvements came from a man that is not Bryant Cook, and sometimes seems that becausue that people just dont play too much or dont win torunaments doesn't seem they are good at developing a deck - because Bahamut was key so that we now are playing G.P+EtW+Therapy AND long time elapsed since he proposed his idea which was uniquely accepted by Emidlin. Snif. likely if that idea had been accepted by Mr Cook, then now we would have been developing a more evolutioned idea of the TES deck. Hell I remember (Fuck my so fucking good memory!) also when he said that B.W. was likely the worst card in the deck apart C.M. and now I ask my self - maybe still it is! maybe I should substitute my 4th B.W. for the 7th discard! (dont think I'll do that)

Again: Thanks Bahamut for bringing us the TriForce! From Game of Thrones: I remember who was the guardian of the North!

[Bryant Cook]

To elaborate: the T1 Volcanic roots on me usually casting cantrips before the discard unless I am on the draw and know I face Counterbalance or a combo deck. I dislike T1 discard and not being able to kill T2. I would not want to start sculpting my hand after blowing the discard spell and giving my opponents the time to find permission again. Even worse it is if you are on the play against unknown and fire your Duress/Therapy(blindcall FoW for example) into D&T, not only indicating clearly what you are playing but also wasting time and cards without your discard finding a target. Its so thankful to see opposing openers which tell you immediately that you can kill them even without checking their hand or if sandbagging your discard might be better. By cantripping first you can mimic URx Delver or SneakShow while getting more options rather than throwing your Duress against a hand with creatures or stuff you don't care for anyways.

It goes both ways, by not casting turn one discard your opponent could put Griselbrand, Thalia or Counterbalance into play. It's all hypotheticals and I'd rather run a different manabase than lose games to things that immediately lock the deck out of the game.

Also, it appears that Bahamat has done all of the work on TES since 2012. May he have many handjobs from internet trolls!

[Zooligan]

Bryant can NOT delete posty on TheSource if that was the topic.

The manner in which they disappeared led me to believe it was Bryant doing it. I have no problem admitting when I was incorrect. If it is indeed the case that he cannot selectively delete posts from the thread he started, then I was mistaken and apologize for accusing Bryant of doing so.

[Lemnear]

Also, it appears that Bahamat has done all of the work on TES since 2012. May he have many handjobs from internet trolls!

So, do you eMail AJ, Alexandre & Co. and tell them we can stop adjusting/testing/developing as the deck is solved since 2012, or should I make a FB group?

[Bahamuth]

Now bow before your lord and savior,


Bahamat

[Bryant Cook]

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/playstationallstarsbattleroyale/images/7/7e/Chang-bow.gif/revision/latest?cb=20140709000759

[LDX]

So, do you eMail AJ, Alexandre & Co. and tell them we can stop adjusting/testing/developing as the deck is solved since 2012, or should I make a FB group?

SolvedDeck.GG.

Man, really, it like feels like everybody is trying to pimp out and adjust/optimize their guns, but barely anyone knows how to shoot. I could be wrong but the feeling I have is a lot of people arguing on which card is the best when I don't have the impression they know how to play said card.

I feel like an alien in this thread trying to learn and optimize my play instead of my decklist. It's fun to read tho, I love my daily drama dose. :)

[Morden]

Sorry if I am off topic, but did anyone go to worcester? Results? Any big change in the meta?

[Idionym]

Sorry if I am off topic, but did anyone go to worcester? Results? Any big change in the meta?

Just go to SCG if you want to see the results.

No changes in the meta, other than mono-red sneak attack making a showing.

[Lemnear]

Again: Thanks Bahamut for bringing us the TriForce! From Game of Thrones: I remember who was the guardian of the North!

I am so thankful that we can now close the thread as having namedropped cards in the past solves any future metagame issues and makes development/testing obsolete. Eureka!

Oh in case Eldritch Moon, has any future playables for any deck ever discussed on this page: Consider this link as pointing to the respective card and me claiming ownership of any future development containing any of these. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-image-gallery/eldritch-moon-2016-06-28)

P.S.: can someone point us to the individual who was the very first mentioning "Swamp" in an Online forum discussing MtG, as Bryant sure want to thank him for developing TES' current manabase

P.P.S. by that logic, I have developed TC in Delver and DTT in S&T decks. Damn!

[Asthereal]

Guys, stop derailing the thread all the time.

Who helped develop which exact deck isn't relevant. Joking about it is worse than that.
Discussing who deletes which post has been done thoroughly, and all posts about it were deleted.
This kind of stuff is only giving the mods extra work.

The discussion about the mana base, on the other hand, is highly relevant.
Has anyone made extensive notes during competitive play about the amount of times where
a. non-blue lands made casting cantrips impossible, vs.
b. non-black lands made going off or casting Decay impossible?

Right now we're slinging arguments for either.
Evidence from recorded numbers would help greatly.

[Whitefaces]

Salt levels are unreal, pretty hilarious how someone can get so wound up about something so trivial.

What do people think of Collective Brutality? My first instinct is it's too weak to soft countermagic in the matchups you'd want it (Delver) or too expensive vs Thalia, but being able to take out a Delver or DRS and strip a Force is pretty enticing. It can help empty your hand for Infernal Tutor in a pinch too.

[Bryant Cook]

Right now we're slinging arguments for either.
Evidence from recorded numbers would help greatly.

Having been playing the physical deck in 3 large events (GP Columbus, ee4 and SCG: WOR) over the last 2 months, I can safely say that in my experience Badlands has been a major upgrade over the second Volcanic Island. I don't just theory craft, I play in events both large and locals. If it was an issue, I would've said something by now.

As for Bayou's place, it depends if you want to give up a sideboard slot or not.

Collective Brutality reminds me a lot of Izzet Charm (Albeit easier to cast), it wants to be good, but it's likely just too expensive. I mean, in theory, you could try two over the pair of Duress (which would be worse for Ad Nauseam).

[Lemnear]

The discussion about the mana base, on the other hand, is highly relevant.
Has anyone made extensive notes during competitive play about the amount of times where
a. non-blue lands made casting cantrips impossible, vs.
b. non-black lands made going off or casting Decay impossible?

Right now we're slinging arguments for either.
Evidence from recorded numbers would help greatly.

Pew ... that would require us to make a very big simulation with various builds (13 vs 14 lands; SB land or not), but for the Website list one can use the sample hand generator and make 100+ iterations as a statistical starting point.

For a theoretical POV, there are only 2 non-black lands in the deck (at best if you run two Volcanics) to weigh against the 6 discard spells & 4 DR (to start the combo into IT) when it comes to turn 1 plays and 3 non-blue lands (website list) to weigh against 8 cantrips. From a more practical side, favoring the black lands indicates one leans towards gambling on good starting grips which do not need much fixing and is willing to play the odds against potential FoWs. Leaning towards the blue lands means that you are accepting a slower, but more stable (in terms of opening hand config, opposing counters, mulligan, etc.) approach. Given that matchups which require Decays are slower in general, you have more time to find IMS' (draw & cantrips) and make your landdrops, so I don't think the scenario of having to cast an EoT Decay off two lands (and two lands only) is a real factor.


What do people think of Collective Brutality? My first instinct is it's too weak to soft countermagic in the matchups you'd want it (Delver) or too expensive vs Thalia, but being able to take out a Delver or DRS and strip a Force is pretty enticing. It can help empty your hand for Infernal Tutor in a pinch too.

I would immediately maindeck the card if it costs B, but not for that manacost if the goal is to kill creatures/discard counters. 1B is a bit much for a card which isn't even able to hit Chalice or Counterbalance

[Lemnear]

Having been playing the physical deck in 3 large events (GP Columbus, ee4 and SCG: WOR) over the last 2 months, I can safely say that in my experience Badlands has been a major upgrade over the second Volcanic Island. I don't just theory craft, I play in events both large and locals. If it was an issue, I would've said something by now.

I think that isn't the point. Via simulation we could get a multitude of your starting grips in these tournaments within an hour or so to see if Volcanic #2 blocks more T1/2 kills/discard than non-island #3 blocks T1/2 cantrips

[Bryant Cook]

I think that isn't the point. Via simulation we could get a multitude of your starting grips in these tournaments within an hour or so to see if Volcanic #2 blocks more T1/2 kills/discard than non-island #3 blocks T1/2 cantrips

There's more to games than blocking T1/T2 kills. We've already mentioned Abrupt Decay and the turn two Brainstorm/discard line while maintaining the appropriate colors of mana.

I honestly think Volcanic Island (aside from the required Bayou) is the worst land in the deck.

[Morden]

Just go to SCG if you want to see the results.

No changes in the meta, other than mono-red sneak attack making a showing.

yes I know that I can find the metagame breakdown on SCG, I was more interested to read someone's report about worcester. I know it's more satisfying to write a report when we do top, but it's also instructive reading what went wrong.

[Morden]

Having been playing the physical deck in 3 large events (GP Columbus, ee4 and SCG: WOR)

How did it go @Worcester? Would you change anything in your list?

[Bryant Cook]

How did it go @Worcester? Would you change anything in your list?

Not sure. I'm waiting to see the B&R, I was bitten by seeing 4 chalice decks and no miracles after cutting my Chalice hate.

[Ebonclaw]

Not sure. I'm waiting to see the B&R, I was bitten by seeing 4 chalice decks and no miracles after cutting my Chalice hate.

With recent discussions of Pulverize/Meltdown/Rite of Replication and their merits/faults, do you feel like having any of these would have mattered/helped?

[Bryant Cook]

With recent discussions of Pulverize/Meltdown/Rite of Replication and their merits/faults, do you feel like having any of these would have mattered/helped?

Nope. I will not play those cards, I've stated before why.

[Lemnear]

With recent discussions of Pulverize/Meltdown/Rite of Replication and their merits/faults, do you feel like having any of these would have mattered/helped?

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/ZEN/en/foil/RiteOfReplication.jpg

???

[Ebonclaw]

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/ZEN/en/foil/RiteOfReplication.jpg

???

Whoops, I meant Shattering Spree. Its replicate ability caused a brain fart.

Thanks for your input Bryant, just wondering if things had changed.

[Bryant Cook]

Whoops, I meant Shattering Spree. Its replicate ability caused a brain fart.

Thanks for your input Bryant, just wondering if things had changed.

It's very rare to be in a situation where you have enough mana to Burning Wish, have it not be hit by Thought-Knot Seer or Warping Wail but also not die due to their clock while having all of the right mana and tools to kill them.

[ManCharm]

I am so thankful that we can now close the thread as having namedropped cards in the past solves any future metagame issues and makes development/testing obsolete. Eureka!

Oh in case Eldritch Moon, has any future playables for any deck ever discussed on this page: Consider this link as pointing to the respective card and me claiming ownership of any future development containing any of these. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-image-gallery/eldritch-moon-2016-06-28)

P.S.: can someone point us to the individual who was the very first mentioning "Swamp" in an Online forum discussing MtG, as Bryant sure want to thank him for developing TES' current manabase

P.P.S. by that logic, I have developed TC in Delver and DTT in S&T decks. Damn!

Hail our lord and savior!! I'm so glad I never have to think again!! #blessed

[flrn]

It's very rare to be in a situation where you have enough mana to Burning Wish, have it not be hit by Thought-Knot Seer or Warping Wail but also not die due to their clock while having all of the right mana and tools to kill them.

Yep. Had Meltdown in my GP Prague list and after playing the list for a bit, I realized, that Thought-Knot Seer is the real problem card out of the Eldrazi deck. Prison decks were there before, but they didn't have an effective Threat, that could strip your hand before. My approach for that matchup is to try to be faster. Not the best odds there, especially if you lose the die roll, but you can't prepare for every matchup properly.

[Izor]

I honestly think Volcanic Island (aside from the required Bayou) is the worst land in the deck.

Agreed. Out of all my fetchable lands I fetch it the least, even though I always fetch it as my red land of choice in situations where I 100% know it won't matter which one I get in order to hide information from my opponent.

[Ebonclaw]

It's very rare to be in a situation where you have enough mana to Burning Wish, have it not be hit by Thought-Knot Seer or Warping Wail but also not die due to their clock while having all of the right mana and tools to kill them.

Yeah, I can see that it's not terribly useful in Eldrazi matchups for that reason, but my interest in these cards has more to do with other decks featuring Chalice/Thorn effects, particularly G1, but I can also see this reasoning being applied to some of those decks as well.



I wanted to ask about the Lands a little bit. Trying to be faster is the deck's usual gameplan against anybody, and it's usually a solid one, but against certain decks, losing the die roll really affects that plan and crop rotation -> tabernacle is a thing even if you do win the dice roll. In my mind there are two different ways to play G2.
The advantage against lands is that T1 Tendrils doesn't care about Force of Will, but then again, if you have a T1 Tendrils kill on a winning die roll, you go for it anyway.
Correct my thinking here as necessary.

On the play G2 against RG Lands, I would board to try to maximize the potential of a T1 kill. There are a few ways to do this, but I'm not sure which line of thinking is best, or how flawed my reasoning is.

-4 Ponder, +4 Abrupt Decay, -2 Duress, +2 Hurkyl's Recall, -1 ETW, +1 Tendrils: This board drops Ponder for the card that Ponder would probably just be looking for anyway. If you're trying be fast but something is stopping you, I want to have an answer in hand and not have to take time to dig for it. Some of the discard is dropped as discard loses its relevance against Lands very quickly. The double edge to that is that when it's effective, it's really effective, and can take away crop rotation and enable you to pursue an ETW route much more viably if necessary, or can also take hate before it can hit the table and require an answer. I assume a Lands player would not keep a hand without at least Crop Rotation in G2, and would prefer to see a T1 thorn/chalice if they get to take a turn. ETW leaves as Lands must always be aware of its possibility, but having Tendrils main enables natural chains ending with Infernal Tutor or Dark Petition and not requiring a Burning Wish to be involved. Dark Petition however, allows Burning Wish to be part of the lethal storm chain though, and keeps the Goblins plan within arm's reach if necessary. I think this is the correct choice to board.

-4 Ponder +4 Abrupt Decay, -4 Cabal Therapy, +2 Hurkyll's Recall, +2 Thoughtseize, -1 ETW, +1 Tendrils: The same as above, but favoring Duress/Thoughtseize over Therapy in a rare instance with the argument that Therapy is not as good when your main gameplan isn't going to be goblins, and the opponent may be playing any number of hate pieces that make a good blind call difficult, since Lands may wield Chalice, Thorn, or Sphere of Resistance in any combination. I think this would also not be bad choice.

-4 Ponder, +4 Abrupt Decay: This board wants to keep ETW as an accessible, primary option, figuring it's easier to storm after getting rid of any existing crop rotation with the full intact discard package, and making 12 goblins is easier than making a lethal tendrils sometimes. Having to possibly wait to cast a lethal tendrils might give the opponent too much reaction time. Since T1 will hopefully be spent firing off a discard spell if it's not making a kill, the change here is removing the one thing we DON'T want to be spending T1 doing in favor of answers in case our discard spell finds multiple problems, and the T1/2 kill isn't there.

-4 Cabal Therapy, -2 Duress, -1 ETW +4 Abrupt Decay, +2 Hurkyl's Recall +1 Tendrils: This board favors reactive answers since Lands is a slower deck and aims at a lethal, unobstructed Tendrils. It has no answer to Crop Rotation/Tabernacle and doesn't intend to have one. More vulnerable to a quick Marit Lage as it has zero interaction with Crop Rotation.


-4 Ponder, +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thoughtseize: All in on getting discard in the opener to tackle multiple hate cards and clear out crop rotation. I think this is my worst example as discard gets irrelevant very quickly against lands, you usually have time to fire off one discard spell before something else becomes a problem, but it's also something you don't mind seeing a single copy of on the play. There are different scenarios where multiple discard is undesirable and discard+answer is more desirable. Consider:

Your hand: Duress, Therapy, Burning Wish, RoF, Mire, USea, LED On your second turn you draw Lotus Petal/Rof/Dark Ritual and have a quick path to ETW

Opponent's hand:
Crop Rotation, CoV, Exploration, Taiga, Grove, Mox Diamond, Tranquil Thicket
You must take CoV or you won't get to cast your second discard anyway. The lands player will probably play Taiga and cast Exploration, play grove, pitch thicket to Diamond, and hold up crop rotation depending on what they draw. They can now respond to your second discard attempt by taking the opportunity to cast the crop rotation into tabernacle preemptively.

Opponent's hand:
CoV, Thorn, Exploration, Taiga, Grove, Mox Diamond, Tranquil Thicket
You'll take chalice and have to find a solution for Thorn later, because it's almost assuredly their next play. Your discard spells would be better off as discard/removal or a pair of removal.

Opponent's Hand:
Sphere, Thorn or 2x Sphere, Exploration, Taiga, Grove, Mox Diamond, Tranquil Thicket
Same as above.

Opponent's Hand:
Sphere or crop rotation or CoV, Wasteland,Exploration, Taiga, Grove, Mox Diamond, Tranquil Thicket
Another example of multiple discard being undesirable. The other one doesn't really have a purpose, any future hate cards will be cast as they're drawn.

Opponent's Hand:
2x Crop Rotation, Sphere,Exploration, Taiga, Grove, Mox Diamond
Another example of multiple discard being bad. You'll take Sphere, but the other one is kind of useless, they'll get to fire off a Crop Rotation if they want to, but at least the Therapy will cost them an extra Crop Rotation that can't be used later to tutor up a threat.

Only one of these scenarios makes having two discard spells in hand desirable, and even that leaves the opponent the option to still find a Tabernacle. The only situation I'd actually want two discard spells would be an extremely slow hand with two threats, which would be a bad keep on the Land's player's part.

These are all G2, on the play considerations to weigh. If you're on the draw in G2, how does this affect your board choices? Lean to more reactive options and less to proactive ones? Cut proactive (discard) ones entirely?

[Bryant Cook]

Yeah, I can see that it's not terribly useful in Eldrazi matchups for that reason, but my interest in these cards has more to do with other decks featuring Chalice/Thorn effects, particularly G1, but I can also see this reasoning being applied to some of those decks as well.

Those decks (Stax/Mud/Painter) are less than 1% of the metagame. Do you really want to devote sideboard slots for that?

I'm at work, I don't have time to read a wall of text on the Lands match-up. But it should be pretty easy.

[Ebonclaw]

Those decks (Stax/Mud/Painter) are less than 1% of the metagame. Do you really want to devote sideboard slots for that?

I'm at work, I don't have time to read a wall of text on the Lands match-up. But it should be pretty easy.

I guess I've just been unlucky in my last events, I had to play 2 out of 3 of those, but that was a year or more ago and my local meta isn't representative of the global obviously. None of them ended up making T8. You have a greater grasp on the wider meta than I do, so I'll take your word for it.

I'm probably overthinking Lands. I have a strange propensity to overthink stuff a lot and make things more difficult than they need to be. Great quality to have, you can't overthink IT enough sometimes, but it backfires horribly often as well.

[Lemnear]

I guess I've just been unlucky in my last events, I had to play 2 out of 3 of those, but that was a year or more ago and my local meta isn't representative of the global obviously. None of them ended up making T8. You have a greater grasp on the wider meta than I do, so I'll take your word for it.

I'm probably overthinking Lands. I have a strange propensity to overthink stuff a lot and make things more difficult than they need to be. Great quality to have, you can't overthink IT enough sometimes, but it backfires horribly often as well.

There is a huge paradoxon to opt to win fast (thus leaving in the Moxen), but to board 6x 2cc boardremoval in case a Chalice drops. Don't board in ToA here, just remove the EtW which means you can keep flipping with Ad Nauseam even below 4 life. Remove the discard & EtW for bounce and call it a day. It should also even out the cmc balance and average cards you can draw. Don't board out the Ponder as you might need them to find your combo pieces. Most important advice: don't fucking throw your duals into Wastelands. I see that damn often

Subway-ride-edit:
I don't see why you would want to keep discard in these examples, especially on the draw. They drop Chalice T1 and then you never get to cast your discard for value (or at all) again. You even have to blind name against various possible targets like Nullrod, Thorn, Chalice, whatever instead of just looking for one of your bounce, IF they indeed have the T1 hate. If you are on the play, having Duress/Thoughtseize might be interresting to get around the reactive Path, but if you are on the draw, kick out the discard

[Ebonclaw]

There is a huge paradoxon to opt to win fast (thus leaving in the Moxen), but to board 6x 2cc boardremoval in case a Chalice drops. Don't board in ToA here, just remove the EtW which means you can keep flipping with Ad Nauseam even below 4 life. Remove the discard & EtW for bounce and call it a day. It should also even out the cmc balance and average cards you can draw. Don't board out the Ponder as you might need them to find your combo pieces. Most important advice: don't fucking throw your duals into Wastelands. I see that damn often

Subway-ride-edit:
I don't see why you would want to keep discard in these examples, especially on the draw. They drop Chalice T1 and then you never get to cast your discard for value (or at all) again. You even have to blind name against various possible targets like Nullrod, Thorn, Chalice, whatever instead of just looking for one of your bounce, IF they indeed have the T1 hate. If you are on the play, having Duress/Thoughtseize might be interresting to get around the reactive Path, but if you are on the draw, kick out the discard
This was really good advice, nailed it. Particularly removing the EtW but NOT putting in ToA.
My line of thinking in going down, but not eliminating discard was that I don't mind seeing one in my opener, but I pretty much never want more than that. Your explanation is exactly what I wanted, I was going in the right general direction, but you narrowed the path down greatly for me.

[Plague Sliver]

Just in time for TES 10-year anniversary...an audio interview with the one and only Bryant Cook, on "Humans of Magic."

https://soundcloud.com/humansofmagic/episode-010-bryant-cook

Bryant Cook is the innovator and creator of The Epic Storm deck, which is approaching its ten-year anniversary. He joins me to discuss the origins of the 1.5 format, the strong Syracuse, NY scene, and his earliest tournament successes. We also talk about fun stuff like reading opponents, table banter, and beating a turn 1 Griselbrand. This is one conversation you won't want to miss.

Time stamps:

[01:02] Introduction
[03:28] Family background and origins
[04:52] Earliest gaming experiences
[06:18] Playing sports
[06:52] Playing Magic for the first time
[08:31] His first tournament
[10:34] On never splitting prizes in a tournament
[12:15] Improving as a player and first major tournament success
[15:00] The Syracuse crew
[16:29] The 1.5 scene in New York and origins of The Source
[17:22] Playing combo for the first time
[18:47] The beginnings of “The Epic Storm”
[22:17] The beginning of The Epic Syndicate
[23:54] How Magic friends have helped him in life
[25:15] Applying Magic learnings to life
[25:49] First major success with The Epic Storm
[27:22] Playing in Jupiter Games events and SCG Opens
[30:10] Getting nervous at high-level events
[32:48] Reading opponents
[36:25] The origins of The Epic Storm website
[38:30] Why he writes content
[39:23] Dealing with online trolls and haters
[40:59] Why Magic?
[42:36] Why he is competitive
[43:31] Tournament mindset and habits
[46:35] Table banter with opponents
[48:02] Codes of conduct and ethical gaming
[49:13] Most challenging Magic-related situation
[51:05] Best Magic moments
[55:19] Future evolution of The Epic Storm
[56:38] Magic-related goals
[59:43] Life-related goals
[01:01:19] What would Bryant tell himself if he could go back 5 years?

[Bryant Cook]

Went ahead and pushed the new website live tonight. I'm proud of it, it's a big improvement compared to the former. That said, the website isn't entirely done. There's some image optimization and image resizing that needs to be done (Old article images are very small compared to new ones). Pushing the website live will motivate me to do them quicker. Enough talking, enjoy the first article on the new website:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-9/

[Zooligan]

New website looks good. Isn't the decklist there older though? I thought Bayou and Void Snare were recently out of the SB.

[Bryant Cook]

New website looks good. Isn't the decklist there older though? I thought Bayou and Void Snare were recently out of the SB.

Yeah, the deck list is dated over a month ago. The issue is that I'm not sure what my list is at the moment. I've been wrapped up in other things. I tried no Hurkyl's but now I think I want them?

[Bryant Cook]

An all new Infernal Tutors! http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-7/

[GeneralSmallChild]

New Article -> http://www.theepicstorm.com/fighting-miracles-menace/

[Ebonclaw]

Great article, highly relevant, and emphasizes one of the reasons I sometimes miss having Xantid in my 'board. Gives enough information I can make good boarding/play decisions without Xantid, and reinforces the thoughts I had about the matchup. Losing my Xantids was a tough decision to make with the popularity of Miracles, but I think Hurkyll's Recall is just more generally versatile. Watching AJ vs James Rynkiewicz a few years ago was actually the reason I was exposed to TES and decided to build it, I'm glad to see such good input from him.

[Lemnear]

Great article, highly relevant, and emphasizes one of the reasons I sometimes miss having Xantid in my 'board. Gives enough information I can make good boarding/play decisions without Xantid, and reinforces the thoughts I had about the matchup. Losing my Xantids was a tough decision to make with the popularity of Miracles, but I think Hurkyll's Recall is just more generally versatile. Watching AJ vs James Rynkiewicz a few years ago was actually the reason I was exposed to TES and decided to build it, I'm glad to see such good input from him.

The point is that Xantid loses to Countertop (in two different ways) and Clique. Happend too me too often to let Xantid count as an Anti-Miracles tech

[Ebonclaw]

Congrats on the T8 Bryant, I see you're back to a pair of Xantids, and now featuring Echoing Truth instead of Hurkyl's Recall?

[Final Fortune]

Congrats on the T8 Bryant, I see you're back to a pair of Xantids, and now featuring Echoing Truth instead of Hurkyl's Recall?

With Thorn of Amethyst decreasing in popularity in Eldrazi, Echoing Truth deals with the 2xChalice of the Void problem and is more useful vs an increasingly popular rise in D&T. Unfortunately for us the hate in the format is becoming less linear, so our answers have to become less linear as well.

[d0nkey]

I'm curious to know what he lost to in the top8.

Part of me wants it to be belcher because it would be hilariously unfortunate to lose to a belcher in top8.

[Bryant Cook]

Truth is my Hurkyl's were in the mail getting signed. No real reason. Both cards are fine.

It was a super easy event, played 6 rounds of magic went 5-1-2 and had no bad match-ups. Happens sometimes.

[zangoasyl]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/126/343/636070256859674145.png
Another meddling mage for 3cc...

[Ronald Deuce]

Another meddling mage for 3cc...

I'm not too worried. It's going to be a turn late to the party pretty often, and it still doesn't look as strong as Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, et al.

[Ebonclaw]

Not worried either. What does D&T even cut for this card? Obv not stoneforge, Thalia, revoker, or any other 2 drop card. Which leaves Fliskerwisp and Mangara, maybe the occasional Brimaz, is this card really better than any of those? Maybe My Little Thalia? It's good but I'm not sure it's better than stuff D&T already plays. I don't think they've got the room, but I won't be surprised to see this thing tested as a 2x if someone can shoehorn it in there.

[zangoasyl]

I am indeed a bit worried as this card on 2 puts us (except for goblins) usually out of the game and as it also has multiple use against other stuff like show&tell @3 it may see some play in the board of other white decks. (Ok, fair enough, there aren't too many of these around but still...)

[Ebonclaw]

The best fight against D&T takes place in the first two turns. If you haven't gone off by then, it's going to be an uphill battle anyway and this card isn't putting the game any farther out of reach than it already is if you haven't been able to combo or buy time by taking a Thalia out of their hand. The advantage TES has against D&T is that once you start going, they can't really interact. The disadvantage is that the deck is full of cards Storm hates, which aren't relevant if they die before they can drop them. But yeah, the deck is so densely packed full of hate that the longer the game goes, the more you have to fight through.

[Lemnear]

You guys make a mistake if you just look at manacost or D&T in particular

[Final Fortune]

That card is the nail in the coffin vs Miracles, it probably sees play there over Meddling Mage.

[Lemnear]

That card is the nail in the coffin vs Miracles, it probably sees play there over Meddling Mage.

+1

[Dr_D]

That card is the nail in the coffin vs Miracles, it probably sees play there over Meddling Mage.

Don't worry, according to /r/MTGLegacy this card can only be run in Death and Taxes.

[Lemnear]

Don't worry, according to /r/MTGLegacy this card can only be run in Death and Taxes.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/60920367.jpg

[lorddotm]

Wow, a lot has changed eh?

[Ebonclaw]

That card is the nail in the coffin vs Miracles, it probably sees play there over Meddling Mage.
I had thought about it winding up here over D&T, and while setting it to 2 screws TES pretty hard, it's not as impactful against other opponents, and anti-synergistic as well. I don't think Miracles is so concerned about TES they'd cut Meddling Mage, a more versatile card that doesn't accidentally screw themselves over for a card that might be better against us. Besides, I see more Deathblade decks running Meddling Mage than I do Miracles.

If miracles did decide to run this card:
If Miracles sets this card on 0, we lose LEDs and Petals, but not much else and we can still wish for removal like Massacre or Grapeshot.
If Miracles sets this card on 1, they shut off a decent chunk of their own action (Top and Brainstorm) and take out our Rituals. It can still be hit with removal.
If Miracles sets this card on 2, we are obviously pretty boned if this is maindecked in G1, which I doubt it would be. Still, Miracles loses the ability to play its own Counterbalance, and counterspell as well, so in other matchups losing access to these things might not be worth playing a card just because it happens to be an almost auto-win against TES.
if Miracles sets this on anything 3 or higher we really don't care any more than we would if it were a Meddling Mage.

I think we will find it to be a nuisance in certain decks that decide to test it out, but ultimately I don't know if Miracles really wants this card over Meddling Mage, which, from the Legacy decklists searches I've run (at least for SCG events) doesn't appear to be super popular. I like the card better in Stoneblade, where I'm not seeing a lot of noncreature 2 cmc cards, so I expect this is probably the likeliest home for the card.

[Lemnear]

I had thought about it winding up here over D&T, and while setting it to 2 screws TES pretty hard, it's not as impactful against other opponents, and anti-synergistic as well. I don't think Miracles is so concerned about TES they'd cut Meddling Mage, a more versatile card that doesn't accidentally screw themselves over for a card that might be better against us. Besides, I see more Deathblade decks running Meddling Mage than I do Miracles.

If miracles did decide to run this card:
If Miracles sets this card on 0, we lose LEDs and Petals, but not much else and we can still wish for removal like Massacre or Grapeshot.
If Miracles sets this card on 1, they shut off a decent chunk of their own action (Top and Brainstorm) and take out our Rituals. It can still be hit with removal.
If Miracles sets this card on 2, we are obviously pretty boned if this is maindecked in G1, which I doubt it would be. Still, Miracles loses the ability to play its own Counterbalance, and counterspell as well, so in other matchups losing access to these things might not be worth playing a card just because it happens to be an almost auto-win against TES.
if Miracles sets this on anything 3 or higher we really don't care any more than we would if it were a Meddling Mage.

I think we will find it to be a nuisance in certain decks that decide to test it out, but ultimately I don't know if Miracles really wants this card over Meddling Mage, which, from the Legacy decklists searches I've run (at least for SCG events) doesn't appear to be super popular. I like the card better in Stoneblade, where I'm not seeing a lot of noncreature 2 cmc cards, so I expect this is probably the likeliest home for the card.

who needs counterbalance if you can't win while they smack you with Prelate/Snapcaster/Clique?

[Ebonclaw]

who needs counterbalance if you can't win while they smack you with Prelate/Snapcaster/Clique?

Well yeah, obviously setting this on 2 is probably game over unless you happen to be packing Chain of Vapor or something, at least for TES. Other decks probably have ways other than 2 CMC spells to deal with this thing as they see fit and it's not going to be any more problematic for them than Meddling Mage was/is. This card, set on 2, happens to be particularly good against us, but I don't think it's necessarily better than existing options in/against other decks. Deathblade, I think, is the exception to that and its best home- even if it can't be pitched to Force. Eventually, I think we'll need to be more concerned about this thing in Deathblade's sideboard than in Miracle's, if it makes the cut there. The WW requirement on T3 may cause some decks to expose themselves to Wasteland more than they'd like if they want to make this a T3 play. If they don't, then it becomes less useful as opponents dispose of their 2 cmc spells along the way.
A lot of decks succumb to countertop lock anyway, and this card feels like putting an extra padlock on a vault door in those cases. Meddling Mage stops the only card a given deck might have that can break the lock (Abrupt Decay or whatever), is one less mana, pitches to Force, doesn't turn off your own counterspell or prevent you from playing another CB as necessary, and doesn't try to have both UU on T2 and WW1 on T3.

[Lemnear]

Well yeah, obviously setting this on 2 is probably game over unless you happen to be packing Chain of Vapor or something, at least for TES. Other decks probably have ways other than 2 CMC spells to deal with this thing as they see fit and it's not going to be any more problematic for them than Meddling Mage was/is. This card, set on 2, happens to be particularly good against us, but I don't think it's necessarily better than existing options in/against other decks. Deathblade, I think, is the exception to that and its best home- even if it can't be pitched to Force. Eventually, I think we'll need to be more concerned about this thing in Deathblade's sideboard than in Miracle's, if it makes the cut there. The WW requirement on T3 may cause some decks to expose themselves to Wasteland more than they'd like if they want to make this a T3 play. If they don't, then it becomes less useful as opponents dispose of their 2 cmc spells along the way.
A lot of decks succumb to countertop lock anyway, and this card feels like putting an extra padlock on a vault door in those cases. Meddling Mage stops the only card a given deck might have that can break the lock (Abrupt Decay or whatever), is one less mana, pitches to Force, doesn't turn off your own counterspell or prevent you from playing another CB as necessary, and doesn't try to have both UU on T2 and WW1 on T3.

Deathblade is an extinct archetype and really no factor to consider. The selling point for miracles is that they can shut off card you wanna block anyways AND solutions to the card itself. Meddling Mage can't do that and is weak to TES as It can't block all paths. Prelute CAN.

[Ebonclaw]

You still see deathblade decks from time to time, with multiples in the T8 of various SCG events over the course of the last month. Not that I'm saying it's a hot deck or that I'm particularly worried about it, but that it seems like the best home for it IMO.
Yeah, putting it in miracles would be really, really bad for TES for the reasons you stated, but is TES on their radar enough for them to drop out something else for it? Is it as useful in other matchups vs tools they are already choosing to play? Does it lockdown enough cards in other decks where countertop on its own isn't good enough?
I guess we'll see. I don't see it as ultimately making the cut unless Miracles just decides they really want to do something about TES, but you play a lot more Legacy than I do so I'm inclined to put more stock in your opinion over mine....but I just don't see it winning games countertop probably was going to win anyway against other decks.

You don't want the card in matchups featuring heavily creature based decks (elves, D&T, Deathblade, (extinct or not))
You don't want the card in the mirror match.
You don't want the card vs Lands.
You don't want the card against Eldrazi.
You don't want the card against the odd LEDdredge
You don't want the card against burn ( I don't think it's agile enough).

Where do you really want to play this card against decks other than TES and maybe ANT to a degree?
The card also has the drawback of being somewhat symmetrical, almost no matter what Miracles sets it at, it's going to shut off some of their own spells and it's just not good in too many matchups to warrant MD inclusion IMO. So that leaves it in the sideboard, so what gets cut for it? And how many? Maybe Miracles decides to weasel two into the board somehow? Is the color requirement, casting cost, can't pitch to force, and the tradeoff of shutting off a few of your own cards worth including to target TES/ANT specifically when more versatile options that are almost as strong exist?

It's great against us, but is improving the matchup against us worth losing those slots that might be better at improving other matchups? We already have to fight through countertop, force, spell pierce, Clique, and more, do they really have such a bad matchup against TES/ANT they feel the need to continue improving on it at the cost of others?

[Lemnear]

Yeah, putting it in miracles would be really, really bad for TES for the reasons you stated, but is TES on their radar enough for them to drop out something else for it?

Its not about TES. You can shut down Decay, IT, Cabal Ritual in ANT. Same goes for other decks. Shutting off several playsets of key card with just a single card? Sign me up


Is it as useful in other matchups vs tools they are already choosing to play?

Hell yeah


Does it lockdown enough cards in other decks where countertop on its own isn't good enough?

Its a redundancy tool and can block 3/4/5/etc manacost spells which are hard to catch for CounterTop.


You don't want the card vs Lands.

Please what? Shutting off Loam & Punishing Fire at once, so lands can't win or remove Prelate?


It's great against us, but is improving the matchup against us worth losing those slots that might be better at improving other matchups? We already have to fight through countertop, force, spell pierce, Clique, and more, do they really have such a bad matchup against TES/ANT they feel the need to continue improving on it at the cost of others?

The card is potentially better than Flusterstorms and could replace those in Miracles SB. I wanna see how OmniTell wants to beat Prelate @3 if they can't resolve S&T or Wish

[Ebonclaw]

Its not about TES. You can shut down Decay, IT, Cabal Ritual in ANT. Same goes for other decks. Shutting off several playsets of key card with just a single card? Sign me up
Yeah, I agree, ANT is also a good place to play this card.



Hell yeah
I'm not sold on this part yet. Guess it depends on the matchups.



Its a redundancy tool and can block 3/4/5/etc manacost spells which are hard to catch for CounterTop.
I like it at 3, but it's not shutting off Abrupt Decay for the decks that play it. It does handle K-Grip there. At 4 you're cutting off your own Jace, which I presume you'll have sideboarded out for this reason, but wound up with a creature and its natural vulnerabilities instead of a walker. At 5 you're shutting off everyone's FoW and.....Ad nauseum I guess? But if you're playing against an Ad Nauseum deck, this thing is probably much better on 2.




Please what? Shutting off Loam & Punishing Fire at once, so lands can't win or remove Prelate?
Dark Depths doesn't care. Punishing fire isn't the greatest thing in the world to be sideboarding in against Miracles to begin with, but you probably still leave one or two in just so you have that path, I dunno, I'm not a lands player. You can set it @ 3 to try to prevent Crucible of Worlds/Wasteland/Port from wrecking you, but then leave Loam and Fire online (I presume you'd leave in at least one copy of Fire), or you can set it at 2, but be left open to Crucible. Of course, if you don't set it to 2, then Punishing Fire will eventually wreck Prelate If you want to deploy this thing early, you're going to have to choose if you want basic wasteland protection, countertop, or Prelate, pick two. Running into Wasteland is probably not advisable. It's better than I first gave it credit for, but it's not a shut out. Lands still has options and as far as it's concerned, it no longer has to worry about Counterspell/Counterbalance. If a CB already hit the field, then it'll Krosan Grip it and now Miracles has locked itself out of redeploying it.
Better than I first gave it credit for, but it's not the silver bullet it is to other decks.


The card is potentially better than Flusterstorms and could replace those in Miracles SB. I wanna see how OmniTell wants to beat Prelate @3 if they can't resolve S&T or Wish
I can see that. Maybe. Once it gets stuck it's good, but Flusterstorm is the card you want in your hand until you stick it. As far as omnitell is concerned, the less time they give Miracles to find answers, the better, and as far as they're concerned they'd rather their opponents having a hand with this in it instead of Flusterstorm when they're trying to go off. It is, however, an answer or die card for them, so a hand that isn't proactive or at least prepared to fight over resolving a Prelate is a losing hand for them.


There's still a large enough slew of decks it's not good against that I don't think this thing will ever be MB, and while this thing will surely crop up in a few sideboards, I doubt it makes it as a 4x, maybe a 3x at best, but likely a 2x. This card is not welcome in the opening 7 against combo, particularly fast combo.

So assuming this card does become a thing (and it will, at least for a while, to some extent), do we look to Chain of Vapor boarded in to provide enough relief we can bounce it long enough to go off?

[Lemnear]

The problem for storm is that there is no real solution for Chalice, CounterTop and Prelate in a single metagame. Decay gets cockblocked by Prelate, CoV by Chalice or CounterTop. If Prelate is paired with either or a second Prelate enters the battlefield, you scoop

[Ebonclaw]

Top be fair, if there's a Chalice on 1 and a countertop lock, while I technically do have outs, it's probably still a lost game anyway; I need both Decay and CoV, or Decay and just the right kind of mana sources to go off. Prelate removes that slight possibility of trying to pull it out anyway, but odds are if there's a countertop package and a Chalice out, I'm not feeling too great about it anyway.
The frustrating thing about Prelate is that if you have the benefit of being able to fire off a discard spell, you either plan on going off before Prelate can come down, or you have to take the Prelate, there's no other option because once Prelate hits for 2, unless you've boarded in CoV or something, you are already 3/4 of the way to scooping. I guess you can play a bunch of petals and LEDs and rits into a natural ETW and then pick them all back up again when Terminus hits.
I don't think anyone will rock these as a 4x MB, but in reacting to this card, you can switch Duress to Thoughtseize and enjoy worse Ad Nauseums, make no changes to the MB but go back to CoV in the side to some number and just accept that games involving Prelate and Chalice were probably lost anyway no matter what you could pair with Chalice, or find some other alternate solution. Engineered Explosives might work except if the card is featured in Miracles, but it exposes duals to wasteland vs D&T and is also taxed, not to mention can just be reset via flickerwisp, so it's not a good answer there. I hope I'm right and the card is not good enough in all matchups to MD in any truly significant number, and that its drawbacks have some impact, but I expect that its sideboard presence at the very least will need to be addressed somehow.

[Lemnear]

I am still holding back in judgement, because I have serious troubles naming a solution to prelate which does not suck against everything else

[Ebonclaw]

I am still holding back in judgement, because I have serious troubles naming a solution to prelate which does not suck against everything else

Same. But whatever it is, it has to either be 1 mana or an X spell. 2 mana spells are locked out by prelate, 3 mana and up hurts Ad Nauseum performance.

[Final Fortune]

I think you are too concerned with what cards it turns off in Miracles as opposed to the other deck, because Miracles can live without sets of cards where more binary decks cant. I think 2x will be staple SB cards in Miracles, and the only saving grace is there will be too few of them to consistently hit the board every game.

As far as adjusting the SB, i like cutting bounce for Disfigure or cutting Chrome Moxes from the MD, replacing them with discard from the SB and opening up space. Honestly I keep cutting down on Chrome Mox anyway to the point where I feel the deck is just ANT with weaker rituals, more threats and a toolbox.

[Ronald Deuce]

I'm curious to try the forthcoming Subterranean Tremors in AnT. Might circumvent Chalice and Thorn (and Trinisphere fwiw) and hatebears like Prelate. It's slow and expensive, but I think it might have potential. Also seems like a better fit for TES given that it's red.

[Lemnear]

I'm curious to try the forthcoming Subterranean Tremors in AnT. Might circumvent Chalice and Thorn (and Trinisphere fwiw) and hatebears like Prelate. It's slow and expensive, but I think it might have potential. Also seems like a better fit for TES given that it's red.

Shares all the Problems Meltdown has like costing 4 againt Thorn/Thalia in order to remove them

[Ronald Deuce]

Shares all the Problems Meltdown has like costing 4 againt Thorn/Thalia in order to remove them

That's true. I think it only costs 3 to hit old Thalia, though.

I'm wondering whether the "bigness" of the effect will outweigh the card's shortcomings. Probably still not fast enough to beat Eldrazi (and also maybe too slow for TES generally), but I'm interested in trying it against Loam decks and D&T. Main problem I noticed with it was that it doesn't handle Gaddock Teeg. With that said, it can also hit both D&T's bears and its Vials. I don't know; it looks like an attempt by Wizards to throw us a bone vs. Eldrazi, but I'm worried it won't do much without our being able to use Rituals normally, which is an inherent problem in both Eldrazi and D&T matches.

[Lemnear]

That's true. I think it only costs 3 to hit old Thalia, though.

I'm wondering whether the "bigness" of the effect will outweigh the card's shortcomings. Probably still not fast enough to beat Eldrazi (and also maybe too slow for TES generally), but I'm interested in trying it against Loam decks and D&T. Main problem I noticed with it was that it doesn't handle Gaddock Teeg. With that said, it can also hit both D&T's bears and its Vials. I don't know; it looks like an attempt by Wizards to throw us a bone vs. Eldrazi, but I'm worried it won't do much without our being able to use Rituals normally, which is an inherent problem in both Eldrazi and D&T matches.

Yeah, just three mana for thalia. My bad :)

[Ebonclaw]

Well, it does have the same problems as Meltdown in that scenario, but it has some upsides meltdown doesn't in that it can serve as an adjustable pyroclasm that doesn't cost 2 to cast, and I think that's its primary purpose. If you're playing this card to blow up artifacts, sure, that's an obvious issue. But if you're playing it to blow up hatebears, it's not as bad of an option.
It is accessible from the wishboard in G1, but if being used as an answer to Prelate, it will need to come into the MD so Prelate doesn't wishblock you.
Yeah, it's not a great answer to Thalia/Thorn, but letting that combo of cards hit the table doesn't have a lot of easy answers anyway.

For the most part I would probably stop reading this card past the line and play it as though the other modes didn't exist. It's not the most versatile tool in the world, but it's not the most narrow either. Then again, there's not a whole lot of tools right now for this problem and I appreciate the fact that if you have the resources, you can select the spell's CMC to get around countertop to kill a prelate, barring any other countermagic of course. You might actually get to use the second mode against Miracles, even if they do just get to jam top on top of their deck.

Another drawback I should note is that Mom can still save Prelate from Tremors. And you're not going to be taking out D&T Hatebears alongside their vials, that means you've got to cast this thing for at least 5 mana, and between ports, wasteland, and the hatebears themselves, getting this kind of mana is not going to happen in a D&T game.

++Tremors is ok to reveal to Ad Nauseum
++Tremors does not deal damage to players, keeping life total intact
++Tremors can be wished for
++Tremors CMC is selectable to avoid Prelate, possibly even through a countertop as 4 is the weak spot for Miracles barring no other countermagic
++Tremors has one other relevant mode, even if it is difficult to utilize

--Mana intensive
--Damage is preventable by Mom
--Doesn't beat Teeg

Having said all that, our answers must lie in X and 1 spells unless the deck changes on a fundamental level. Prelate will be set to 2, blocking Wishes, and 3 CMC and higher hurts too much to flip off of Ad Nauseum. I think that despite its shortcomings, Ronald might be right and this might be one of the best options we have.

[Lemnear]

Its 5 mana to wipe a Chalice and 6 to wipe a Thorn and that at sorcery speed. Thats too much of an opportunity cost to beat Prelate.

[Ebonclaw]

Its 5 mana to wipe a Chalice and 6 to wipe a Thorn and that at sorcery speed. Thats too much of an opportunity cost to beat Prelate.
Agreed, but thats why we pack abrupt decay and Recall and such. Figuring out where to slot a pair of these in the board is the big question: is he help against Prelate going to be worth sacrificing whatever gets dropped to make room.
Probably will rarely use this card to nuke artifacts. I dont see many decks running thorn or Chalice AND prelate. Yet.
Of course, if the modes on tremors are moot then Sudden Demise may be a better option as it will also take out flickerwisp.

[Darklingske]

I'll be back to putting Massacre in the SB to battle the rise of the hatebears (at least in the beginning months when Conspiracy 2 is legal, when everybody is trying out the beatsticks) :smile:

[Ebonclaw]

Good luck wishing for it with Prelate.

[Pelikanudo]

@My thoughts on Prelate card to whom may interest:

I'm not sure Prelate will be played in miracles, but in case this card sees plays in miracles and depending on the number what I've thoutgh is:
- increment the number of thougthseize in side/base
- increment the number of EtW - maybe 3 in base 1 in side --> we asume that Miracles player will decrement the nº of Terminus vs us for 2nd and 3rd games because of including prelate.
- go for the fast route with gobs and stablishing pressure.

Well we still have cards like Wipe Away (for c.b., senseis, m.m, prelate, etc..)...
as said IF this card sees plays in miracles maybe it is a problem, but really don't know... i already have troubles vs miracles... even maybe potentiating the fast strategy if they decrement their terminus can be better than running full of decays...

related to other decks including this card: i really dont mind if D&T includes this card...

[Lemnear]

@My thoughts on Prelate card to whom may interest:

I'm not sure Prelate will be played in miracles, but in case this card sees plays in miracles and depending on the number what I've thoutgh is:
- increment the number of thougthseize in side/base
- increment the number of EtW - maybe 3 in base 1 in side --> we asume that Miracles player will decrement the nº of Terminus vs us for 2nd and 3rd games because of including prelate.
- go for the fast route with gobs and stablishing pressure.

Well we still have cards like Wipe Away (for c.b., senseis, m.m, prelate, etc..)...
as said IF this card sees plays in miracles maybe it is a problem, but really don't know... i already have troubles vs miracles... even maybe potentiating the fast strategy if they decrement their terminus can be better than running full of decays...

related to other decks including this card: i really dont mind if D&T includes this card...

Nice 180 degree flip on the multi-EtW idea

[Pelikanudo]

Nice 180 degree flip on the multi-EtW idea

...

Well, I expected such an answer from you my Dear Lemnear... you know my love for you is unconditional!

Again, I stated that I WILL do this IF Prelate sees play in Miracles, Otherwise, I WON'T. Simple. I uniquely proposed this solution to a prelate issue in TES, nothing else. I even believe that as I said, if prelate sees play, then Terminus will be reduced and THIS EtW plan will succeed more often than not! well all these are theories...

Miracles is the unique match up i am still not confortable with. and sorry - i recognize I read A.J Kerrignas article - thanks, but didn't say anything new to me.... it seems that I uniquely play vs Good Miracles players - sure the ones i won are bad players. long time ago i don't play legacy...

[Lemnear]

...

Well, I expected such an answer from you my Dear Lemnear... you know my love for you is unconditional!

Again, I stated that I WILL do this IF Prelate sees play in Miracles, Otherwise, I WON'T. Simple. I uniquely proposed this solution to a prelate issue in TES, nothing else. I even believe that as I said, if prelate sees play, then Terminus will be reduced and THIS EtW plan will succeed more often than not! well all these are theories...

Miracles is the unique match up i am still not confortable with. and sorry - i recognize I read A.J Kerrignas article - thanks, but didn't say anything new to me.... it seems that I uniquely play vs Good Miracles players - sure the ones i won are bad players. long time ago i don't play legacy...

I got you now. On the other side, Prelate does not really alter how Miracles player approach the storm matchup, but replaces cards like Meddling Mage or potentially Flusterstorm which not necessarily have an impact on how many mass-removal remains in the deck after Prelate is legal, so I don't consider the Goblin-Plan any better or worse in general against Miracles. I acknowledge the idea to dodge the potential lock with Prelate @2 with more storm-spells in the (postboard) maindeck and playing the Grinding Station game (with EtW instead of ToA in that case). I am just worried about if this matchup becomes even more of an uphill battle than it already is

[Pelikanudo]

I got you now. On the other side, Prelate does not really alter how Miracles player approach the storm matchup, but replaces cards like Meddling Mage or potentially Flusterstorm which not necessarily have an impact on how many mass-removal remains in the deck after Prelate is legal, so I don't consider the Goblin-Plan any better or worse in general against Miracles. I acknowledge the idea to dodge the potential lock with Prelate @2 with more storm-spells in the (postboard) maindeck and playing the Grinding Station game (with EtW instead of ToA in that case). I am just worried about if this matchup becomes even more of an uphill battle than it already is

Agree, really don't think they decrement their terminus... but well that's my hope. but I really don't think they decrement fluster eitherl. maybe M.Mage. at least by here fluster is played as a minimum of 3.
well in my experience, sometimes Decay is useless vs them - they have snap and fluster and senseis, sometimes decay is key and sometimes, even you not having decay, tehy are worried to land a c.b. because they prefer their mana available for snap->fluster.... really dont know what to think here... but if you reach the scenario in which they play prelate and you can destroy/bounce it, you'll be in a better situation than if you destroy a balance, just because of mana, I as a miracles player won't touch my 3 flusters and playing a prelate could be a very risky decision --> imagine a Wipe Away EoT with previosly played discard and in the following turn too.!

well maybe it is time for multiEtW plan, still didnt testing it! and likely say good bye to decays and green.

just out of curiosity - do you play Modern or any of you Stormers? if so which deck do you play? maybe we match - I play and Love MonoUTron!

[Final Fortune]

I think the better path than trying to beat Prelate is just to be a better deck vs Miracles from the start of the match.

[Final Fortune]

Good luck wishing for it with Prelate.

In all fairness that stayement still makes a lot of sense considering D&T is going to go thru the roof now, its not like you can let Prelate stop you from playing the best card vs the archetype. You have to either be faster or improve elsewhere as nothing is efficiently dealing with it.

[Pelikanudo]

I think the better path than trying to beat Prelate is just to be a better deck vs Miracles from the start of the match.

what do you exactly mean with this?

[Final Fortune]

what do you exactly mean with this?

Cutting Chrome Mox for Duress and opening up SB space, I think worrying about Ad Nauseam killing yourself at this point just overlooks that even getting to Ad Nauseam thru disruption is your main problem vs your most difficult match ups.

I've gotten so used to playing 2/3rds of my games without Mox that I seriously question why I'm playing 1/3rd of my games with it.

[Ebonclaw]

In all fairness that stayement still makes a lot of sense considering D&T is going to go thru the roof now, its not like you can let Prelate stop you from playing the best card vs the archetype. You have to either be faster or improve elsewhere as nothing is efficiently dealing with it.

Yup, this is the other approach we can look at. Instead of worrying about what's happening on T3, we should be worrying about just not letting them get that far. Most of the experimental D&T lists I've seen are using Prelate as a 1-2x MB, as I thought there's just not a lot of room at the 3CMC slot and there's too much goodstuff for them there that they just don't want to cut more of.
I'm still not writing off testing Subterranean Tremors or Sudden Demise as possible options if we need to take further action.

4x Abrupt Decay
2x Tremors/Demise
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Thoughtseize
1x Void Snare
1x Dark Petition

[Lemnear]

Remark: Still on 4 EtW in the 75 to beat decks like D&T.

In general, going Belcher agains D&T (in terms of deckbuilding) hurst you against blue decks and I cannot really justify gearing the deck towards T1/2 combo if 2/4 of the metagame are blue decks

[Ebonclaw]

Remark: Still on 4 EtW in the 75 to beat decks like D&T.

In general, going Belcher agains D&T (in terms of deckbuilding) hurst you against blue decks and I cannot really justify gearing the deck towards T1/2 combo if 2/4 of the metagame are blue decks

Agree. I think playing the deck the way we have been playing it, but without reshaping it is probably the way to go. Aim at comboing on T1/2. If Prelate gets too problematic, we might need to see if something like Tremors might make it into the Wishboard to be sideboarded in, but I don't think Prelate will change the 75 much. Maybe replace a single Duress with a single Thoughtseize or something at best, but retooling the whole deck seems pretty off the table.

[Pelikanudo]

Cutting Chrome Mox for Duress and opening up SB space, I think worrying about Ad Nauseam killing yourself at this point just overlooks that even getting to Ad Nauseam thru disruption is your main problem vs your most difficult match ups.

I've gotten so used to playing 2/3rds of my games without Mox that I seriously question why I'm playing 1/3rd of my games with it.

One of the main reasons I was happy to play 12 lands was exactly this - I can play 3 C.M and 7 discard effects in my 60. The hell, now Eldrazi is slowing down I could return to this build...
I dont think going down to 2 C.M. is the right way, however I do think 7 discard effects is the way to go.

I dont think that the issue is to not killing oneself, but speed and C.M. speed up the deck AND gets better EtW.

I ' m also used to side out 2 C.M. in my match ups vs blue in general - uniquely I take out full of 3 C.M. vs miracles (I take out 1 or 0 vs Agro-Blue) - but this will change... however the speed factor for 1st game having 3 C.M. I think is crucial regadless you play vs Blue or not.

NOTE: I ad a look just for curiosity to the Miracles thread and denst seem to consider Prelate in his/her build... but more as a card that will have to had in mind vs D&T... maybe it has nonsense to discuss even approaches.
I likely change back to 12 lands build BUT uniquely because Eldrazi si going down... nothing else....

[Final Fortune]

3 Chrome Mox is a vestigial organ left behind by Diminishing Returns, I don't care about T1, unprotected wins anymore so I don't want to see Chrome Mox in my opening hand at all. I would rather see my opponent's first land and/or his hand, and be in a better position to make informed decisions than push and pray. Goldlands and Chrome Mox do not let you make the same micro decisions as Fetchlands and an extra card, so I only want to play the minimum number of Chrome Mox I need to support Ad Nauseam. The lowest land and the highest Chrome Mox count I have seen in ANT is 14 and 2 respectively, and It's what I'm playing with currently.

MD
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou

SB
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare
1 Meltdown
1 Massacre
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Echoing Truth

I've been extremely happy with every card choice so far

[Bryant Cook]

New article is live! http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-vs-sanctum-prelate/

[zangoasyl]

New article is live! http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-vs-sanctum-prelate/

Nice reading as always and definitely input that's worth it! I wonder, though, why none of you is considering adding a 3cmc sweeper like infest or possibly even toxic deluge as a possible answer. Is that thought too narrow?

[Lemnear]

Nice reading as always and definitely input that's worth it! I wonder, though, why none of you is considering adding a 3cmc sweeper like infest or possibly even toxic deluge as a possible answer. Is that thought too narrow?

Its pure hypothetical atm as we have to wait for the actual impact. The main issue of pure creature removal are the decks which may or may not pair Prelate with other nasty stuff like Nullrods, Counterbalance, Chalice or the like and you absolutely don't want one-dimensional cards in these theoretical matchups, eapecially if the wider field does not justify it. If Prelates impact is so damn high, that white hatebear decks become much more popular, dedicated hatw might be worthwhile.