[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm [Archive] - Page 35

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ye_old_storm_boy

12-10-2017, 02:07 PM

I'm familiar with the math. My question was mostly if that 60% chance of resolving your line is enough to warrant going for it. Are most experienced TES players comfortable with that number?

Bryant Cook once said something along the lines of if you are dealt 60% odds, you take em. essentailly If you have a straight 60% shot you have to take it

Pelikanudo

12-10-2017, 04:12 PM

to who may interest:

I've been playing lately 4CC just to do something different than playing Storm (I really suppress from playing Storm when playing other diff. decks...). Recently I tryied again Silences CoB and bullshit as from time to time I just like change things in the deck (100% sur with no success) ...
I remember the 1st configuration of TES post SDT banning and they just had 2 IoK and looked back and noticed how good IoK is in the current meta which by here all seems 4CC and Grixis... just to say I am back on 2 IoK and go back to D.P. instead of D.R. but also from time to time I just play D.R. as I love the card... maybe I try I.C. as a way to interact vs discard in non symetric way... aven't you really noticed how many targets IoK has in this current meta? the unique reason I would prefer to play other card is to have diff. angles of attack - ex.: Xantid or Surgical to interact with the stack...

About the article regaridng I F**** up - reallly read a few lines but I believe it is a good thing to make players aware that likely recognizing their own mistakes is one thing to learn... I as example believe that - when playing TES and loose I just analyze the match ups and see what I could have been wrong and I can say that playing TES it seems that always yourself are the one making mistakes - I mean you are your opponent. Even if you think after the decission you made the correct decision IF the opposite decision made you win the game then IT WAS a bad decission.

One thing I want to express is the following: Sometimes you make a play decision based on game state and odds based on cards the opp. has in hand cards likely to draw, etc. and all the decisions are based on a statistical context - well - I can say there is a small statistical context and a major statistical context and those who contemplate that major statistical context will be the ones that will have the most success with TES. I m not sure If I've been understood with this but the idea is: let's say you have played 5 games vs 4CC and they are likely to have 2 hymns 2 Leovold 4Fow and post board 2 Flusters, If postboard you are going to make a decission based on for example if the opponent invested 1 fluster on that game which is the 3rd game vs this opponent on that day that decission could led to a good conclusion, BUT the difficult matter is to reach that conclussioon based on knowledge on a statistical context of- lets say - 10 games - on that context if it is assumed that if in the 9 previous games post board opponent didnt draw a single fluster vs you until lets say 8th turn. then you'll be luck If your opponent on that 10th game doesn't draw a fluster.

Another example is the following: which is more simple:
playing vs an unknown opp that plays FoW on OtP you have 60% win if it is the 1st turn. well 60% means moreless 2/3 succcess which is fine. If you have 10 1st followed wins vs FoW deck OtP the question is: should you play the 1st turn win the 10 times? the anwer is: and you all will say: YES. for this scenario - well I can say that I will play the 9 games 1st turn win and the 10th no IF this happens. All I can say is that this part of TES is the reason I play TES and 100% sure the most complicated one.

As said this is just an example scenario of what I meant. I hope I explained well...

FavoredRevenant

12-10-2017, 05:41 PM

I went 2-2 in the local event with TES yesterday. Lost to burn and grixis delver, beat burn and enchantress. Writeup here:

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tes-12917/

I'm still pretty bad/new with the deck, but I do think with the surge in graveyard hate it has a leg up on ANT in the current meta.

Bran_Dawri

12-12-2017, 08:53 AM

Went 2-12 in a local tournament this weekend. Should have been 3-1-1, as I completely miscounted mana and on top of that completely misplayed the line in the deciding game of the second lost match. I blame going out for a pint with my Scottish colleagues, which turned into a few pints, which turned into 2-pint steins the night before.
I'm fairly sure I would have eventually won the drawn match as well, but it went to time as it was my first tourney in a long time, and his first tourney, period.

Very educational experience, and I thought finishing 10th out of 19 (and one match-win away from T8) was pretty good considering the hangover and unfamiliarity with the deck.

I used a fairly stock list, except I ran Tendrils main (which won me at least two games) and instead of rending volley (which I don't own) had two deathmarks in the sideboard.

Hrothgar

12-13-2017, 09:37 AM

Hi guys, this is the new Storm (ANT and TES) Discord chat:

https://discord.gg/uDsNmMs

You are all welcome!
Enjoy!

:wink:

Bryant Cook

12-13-2017, 02:53 PM

Another matchup mulligan!
http://theepicstorm.com/matchup-mulligan-lands/

Bryant Cook

12-20-2017, 09:54 AM

http://theepicstorm.com/reading-ropes-introduction/

"Hey everyone!
My first article in my new series "Reading the Ropes" is now live. The series is aimed at teaching new players the important things that they need to know in order to become a successful Storm pilot.
Give it a read and provide some feedback!" -AJ

Bryant Cook

12-22-2017, 11:55 AM

http://theepicstorm.com/tes-2017-pimp-deck-update/

ye_old_storm_boy

12-23-2017, 07:03 PM

So I play in a very blue-light meta, and am wondering if my sideboard should be green or just straight grixis (also still working on getting a bayou, so I would have to play O. Tomb)

Pelikanudo

12-24-2017, 07:13 AM

So I play in a very blue-light meta, and am wondering if my sideboard should be green or just straight grixis (also still working on getting a bayou, so I would have to play O. Tomb)

do not play O. Tomb.
If there is no C.B. then A.D. is not really needed - I use A.D. as a way to batle both - M.M / Canonist / Chalice and now C.B. in a single card. sometimes I find M.M others Null Rod, etc. A.D. has been always there since its inception I run more or less depending on C.B. number.
If there is no C.B. you can just run E.T. / CoV / Abrade / Rending Volley to combat M.M / Canonist / Chalice.
My preference have been always E.T. > CoV > rest of cards as these are just the most polivalents - have in mind the TES side is quite reduced and you need to run themost polivalent cards unless there is too much hate coming from specific cards in your meta.
Hope this helps.

ye_old_storm_boy

12-24-2017, 12:16 PM

do not play O. Tomb.
If there is no C.B. then A.D. is not really needed - I use A.D. as a way to batle both - M.M / Canonist / Chalice and now C.B. in a single card. sometimes I find M.M others Null Rod, etc. A.D. has been always there since its inception I run more or less depending on C.B. number.
If there is no C.B. you can just run E.T. / CoV / Abrade / Rending Volley to combat M.M / Canonist / Chalice.
My preference have been always E.T. > CoV > rest of cards as these are just the most polivalents - have in mind the TES side is quite reduced and you need to run themost polivalent cards unless there is too much hate coming from specific cards in your meta.
Hope this helps.

Yes it helps a ton. I havent been able to get a straight answer about whether or not green is better in blue matchups.

Vivarus

12-27-2017, 09:29 AM

Hey guys, with the return of green to TES, I had some thoughts about which green land to play!:

http://theepicstorm.com/bayou-vs-taiga/

Bryant Cook

12-28-2017, 07:48 AM

http://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-13/

Polski_

12-29-2017, 07:52 AM

TES Matchup Battles: Dredge

http://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-dredge/

zangoasyl

01-05-2018, 02:49 AM

Final Fortune

01-05-2018, 06:03 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/202/596/636506936619055050.jpeg

seems a bit far fetched due to the high cmc, but may it be possible to get something like a variant of TES rolling without red and an even more stable mana base?

Grim Tutor or Deathwish would be a better bet, the mana is a prohibitive restraint as it would need to be at most BBB to work at all.

Pelikanudo

01-06-2018, 06:46 AM

Grim Tutor or Deathwish would be a better bet, the mana is a prohibitive restraint as it would need to be at most BBB to work at all.

agree if it would be -1mana...

Bryant Cook

01-10-2018, 09:08 AM

JPA fresh off his GP Finals finish at Santa Clara sits down to chat with our boy Jasper. Read it or don't, whatever. http://theepicstorm.com/through-the-looking-glass-show-tell-with-jpa93/

Bryant Cook

01-13-2018, 05:11 PM

http://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-bryant-cook-01-13-18/

Polski_

01-15-2018, 12:08 AM

Another episode of the series TheEpicStorm.com: TES MATCHUP BATTLES! is up and this time we face Aluren!
http://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-aluren/

Let me know your thoughts and opinions. Thank you.

Alex Poling

FavoredRevenant

01-15-2018, 08:46 AM

ye_old_storm_boy

01-15-2018, 04:10 PM

As a new-ish TES player, the flood of quality content you guys have been putting out has been great. Thanks for that.

I went 3-2 last night in our local monthly. I beat Elves, BUG Shadow Delver, and Enchantress and lost to ANT and Burn. I'm writing up a tournament tonight with the gritty details, but I wanted to go ahead and post this to get it off my chest (it's been giving me conniptions): I struggle to beat burn. The website (and common sense) say the matchup should be favorable for me, but I really feel like it's about 40-60 or worse. If I don't make a pile of goblins on turn 1, it seems like they always have the Eidolon on their turn 2, and winning through an Eidolon feels impossible most of the time. Sure, you can Wish for removal, but unless you're waiting until turn 3-4 to make those land drops, you're going to have to use acceleration to get there; that means taking usually 6 or 8 damage off the Eidolon just to remove it at a loss of bare minimum one tutor effect. God forbid they drop a second. Games 2 and 3, they bring in Pillars, and those are even harder to remove if you're not on the Abrupt Decay plan. Even if they don't have the Eidolon, the insanely fast life total pressure makes Ad Naus lines G1 significantly more risky.

Am I just playing this matchup completely incorrectly? I know my mulligan game is the weakest aspect of my play, but I've run this matchup dozens of times in the last month, and I think I've improved. Are there any particular play patterns or cards you guys look for/avoid that aren't obvious? I try to stay away from cantrips and Duresses in game 1 and I avoid Ad Nauseam lines unless I can get it off turn 1 or 2 with mana floating and a substantial life total. I go for Tendrils every game if I can, and if not I aim for 12 or more goblins to punch through their ground team.

I am not super experinced in this matchup, but I believe that an Ad nauseum when they have two lands is bad, and that past in flames is your friend. Also make some goblins!!!!

Grapeshot

01-15-2018, 04:15 PM

As a new-ish TES player, the flood of quality content you guys have been putting out has been great. Thanks for that.

I went 3-2 last night in our local monthly. I beat Elves, BUG Shadow Delver, and Enchantress and lost to ANT and Burn. I'm writing up a tournament tonight with the gritty details, but I wanted to go ahead and post this to get it off my chest (it's been giving me conniptions): I struggle to beat burn. The website (and common sense) say the matchup should be favorable for me, but I really feel like it's about 40-60 or worse. If I don't make a pile of goblins on turn 1, it seems like they always have the Eidolon on their turn 2, and winning through an Eidolon feels impossible most of the time. Sure, you can Wish for removal, but unless you're waiting until turn 3-4 to make those land drops, you're going to have to use acceleration to get there; that means taking usually 6 or 8 damage off the Eidolon just to remove it at a loss of bare minimum one tutor effect. God forbid they drop a second. Games 2 and 3, they bring in Pillars, and those are even harder to remove if you're not on the Abrupt Decay plan. Even if they don't have the Eidolon, the insanely fast life total pressure makes Ad Naus lines G1 significantly more risky.

Am I just playing this matchup completely incorrectly? I know my mulligan game is the weakest aspect of my play, but I've run this matchup dozens of times in the last month, and I think I've improved. Are there any particular play patterns or cards you guys look for/avoid that aren't obvious? I try to stay away from cantrips and Duresses in game 1 and I avoid Ad Nauseam lines unless I can get it off turn 1 or 2 with mana floating and a substantial life total. I go for Tendrils every game if I can, and if not I aim for 12 or more goblins to punch through their ground team.

Don't be afraid to mulligan aggressively if you have a slow hand, going off quickly is key in this matchup. I'd also go for Empty the Warrens lines more often as most of the time it just wins the race. After sideboarding we have four answers to Eidolon and Pyrostatic Pillar, which is a lot.The best advice I can give though is definitely to mulligan slower hands more often, even if you mulligan into a hand that can only make ten goblins it's still better than not going off before the burn deck takes a heavy toll on your life total or drops an Eidolon or Pillar.

Also, I recommend checking out the sideboard guide on the website as it gives a great idea of our game plan after game one. You should also read Alex Poling's Battle Matchup article where he tackles the matchup more in depth.

Hope this helps!

http://theepicstorm.com/sideboard-guide/

http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-burn/

Final Fortune

01-16-2018, 04:33 AM

As a new-ish TES player, the flood of quality content you guys have been putting out has been great. Thanks for that.

I went 3-2 last night in our local monthly. I beat Elves, BUG Shadow Delver, and Enchantress and lost to ANT and Burn. I'm writing up a tournament tonight with the gritty details, but I wanted to go ahead and post this to get it off my chest (it's been giving me conniptions): I struggle to beat burn. The website (and common sense) say the matchup should be favorable for me, but I really feel like it's about 40-60 or worse. If I don't make a pile of goblins on turn 1, it seems like they always have the Eidolon on their turn 2, and winning through an Eidolon feels impossible most of the time. Sure, you can Wish for removal, but unless you're waiting until turn 3-4 to make those land drops, you're going to have to use acceleration to get there; that means taking usually 6 or 8 damage off the Eidolon just to remove it at a loss of bare minimum one tutor effect. God forbid they drop a second. Games 2 and 3, they bring in Pillars, and those are even harder to remove if you're not on the Abrupt Decay plan. Even if they don't have the Eidolon, the insanely fast life total pressure makes Ad Naus lines G1 significantly more risky.

Am I just playing this matchup completely incorrectly? I know my mulligan game is the weakest aspect of my play, but I've run this matchup dozens of times in the last month, and I think I've improved. Are there any particular play patterns or cards you guys look for/avoid that aren't obvious? I try to stay away from cantrips and Duresses in game 1 and I avoid Ad Nauseam lines unless I can get it off turn 1 or 2 with mana floating and a substantial life total. I go for Tendrils every game if I can, and if not I aim for 12 or more goblins to punch through their ground team.

Burn is a difficult matchup because all of the Storm engines in the stock list aren't designed to take it into account, Empty the Warrens can lose on the ground if you don't play it by turn 2, Past in Flames is too slow vs aggro and Ad Nauseam is suicide so you should probably put a Diminishing Returns instead of a Telemin Performance in your SB since you're very likely to be able to win on T3 with it and as a bonus it's good vs Lands too.

Bryant Cook

01-16-2018, 07:24 AM

Burn is a difficult matchup because all of the Storm engines in the stock list aren't designed to take it into account, Empty the Warrens can lose on the ground if you don't play it by turn 2, Past in Flames is too slow vs aggro and Ad Nauseam is suicide so you should probably put a Diminishing Returns instead of a Telemin Performance in your SB since you're very likely to be able to win on T3 with it and as a bonus it's good vs Lands too.

I have an 80% win ratio against Burn in over 40 recorded matches. I wouldn't say it's a difficult matchup. Just need to learn how to mulligan aggressively and the strategy.

Bryant Cook

01-17-2018, 07:24 AM

http://theepicstorm.com/matchup-mulligan-miracles/

Pelikanudo

01-17-2018, 03:37 PM

....

I just maybe have lost 1 among 10 match ups played vs burn... well D.R. is good vs burn as F.F says... IGG in base plus Tendrils is faster than PiF and vs burn is irrelevant so thats an option too, CoV is good as also generates storm in the combo turn to tendrils them...

anyway i dont think all these things are needed vs burn.
what always will shock me is the way you all side vs burn - but anyway - I just take out 3 duress/2 ponder and put 2 decay 2 ET 1 bayou having then 1AN all GP total 13 lands still 1EtW. EDIT sure 4 CT

regarding the B.C, article: Nice article I have to say - even i understadn the decisions and context I just took other direction but hey! now I am at home and likely i am very optimistic
but I would have kept all the hands!!

Jax-

01-17-2018, 04:19 PM

So 3 MD Warrens was pretty interesting today online,

3 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Telemin Performance
1 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Consign/Oblivion
3 Echoing Truth
2 Rending Volley

I stole a lot of games off the back of Warrens game 1, there wasn't really anybody playing Stifle so I opened up a lot of games just by pushing Goblins on them and then SBed out the extra Warrens for the pretty standard 7 discard package and just played the deck normally after that. I really like that manabase even tho' it doesn't have a basic to it, the off color fetchlands are a pretty interesting strategy because people see the off color fetchlands and just tap out for their 1 drops without thinking about Storm as a possibility.

I'm not going to really say this is the best list or anything, but I didn't have much problems with Ad Nauseam despite the extra copies of Warrens since I could just stop short and spit 20+ attackers on the board without worrying about them being able to sweep em game 1. It definitely looks viable tho', if you think you can take advantage of the meta being soft vs Warrens.

Had a lot of fun with this list lately and thinking to bring it at the locals next week. I tuned it a bit tho.

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Simian Spirit
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

Of this list I really love how it could consistently drop 10 goblins on turn 1-2.
Another thing I like is that SSG doesnt use graveyard, its uncounterable and make fetching for basic island way better.

Bryant Cook

01-17-2018, 05:02 PM

Final Fortune

01-18-2018, 04:25 AM

I have an 80% win ratio against Burn in over 40 recorded matches. I wouldn't say it's a difficult matchup. Just need to learn how to mulligan aggressively and the strategy.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply burn was an unfavourable match up, I meant Burn is a difficult match up because if they do manage to reach turn 3 then you have to learn how to play around the soft lock and Ad Nauseam/Past in Flames/Empty the Warrens don't give you easy lines at the health and time you need to close out the game if you had to bounce a Pillar of Flames etc.

I'm more concerned about the situations where the deck doesn't just goldfish a win vs aggro and has to deal with post-board hate.

@Jax

Yeah, I was never really serious about 3MD Warrens, I was just messing around with different ideas at the time and even tho' you will win a lot of really easy games G1 you're making your whole deck soft to Stifle and Flusterstorm.

I play a pretty conservative list usually.

Dr_D

01-18-2018, 09:31 AM

Had a lot of fun with this list lately and thinking to bring it at the locals next week. I tuned it a bit tho.

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Simian Spirit
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

Of this list I really love how it could consistently drop 10 goblins on turn 1-2.
Another thing I like is that SSG doesnt use graveyard, its uncounterable and make fetching for basic island way better.

If you're going this route, I don't think dropping Rite of Flame is correct. If you're trying to make goblins as early as possible, SSG is just netting you less storm and less tokens. If you're concerned about grave hate, the worst it's doing to you is making rite as good as SSG yet it still builds storm. Since you're trying to just spit out early Empties, do you even want basic island? Hands with an Empty and double SSG are going to make 4 less Goblins turn 1 than hands with Empty and double rite, I don't see how SSG could possibly be better than Rite here. I think you want to max out your Rites before adding any SSGs. I also don't think this list gains anything from playing basics.

Bryant Cook

01-18-2018, 02:18 PM

If you're going this route, I don't think dropping Rite of Flame is correct. If you're trying to make goblins as early as possible, SSG is just netting you less storm and less tokens. If you're concerned about grave hate, the worst it's doing to you is making rite as good as SSG yet it still builds storm. Since you're trying to just spit out early Empties, do you even want basic island? Hands with an Empty and double SSG are going to make 4 less Goblins turn 1 than hands with Empty and double rite, I don't see how SSG could possibly be better than Rite here. I think you want to max out your Rites before adding any SSGs. I also don't think this list gains anything from playing basics.

If anything, he should've cut lands for the SSG's as explosive as this list is, you don't need to hit as many land drops. Each SSG is .5 lands.

Plus SSG pairs well with Rite of Flame.

As a back-up engine, I'd probably run Diminishing Returns (SB) and a fourth Chrome Mox.

Bryant Cook

01-19-2018, 08:49 AM

http://theepicstorm.com/reading-the-ropes-the-win-conditions/

Jax-

01-19-2018, 10:54 AM

Talking about stock list. Any way to make space for 1 board TS? MD Bayou?

Final Fortune

01-20-2018, 12:29 PM

No reason to use a worse than Swamp land in the MD, since SB space isn't at a premium. 2nd Warrens or Swarms can all be cut for a Thoughtseize

Final Fortune

01-23-2018, 10:15 AM

Pelikanudo

01-24-2018, 02:45 PM

This is to answer the people who are PMing me for a list,

...

There's no "secret sauce," I just prefer the consistent land drops, additional Burning Wish targets and Diminishing Returns over Telemin Performance right now. I don't find Island, Badlands and Xantid Swarms to be reliable, sometimes the Island and Badlands cause mulligan issues that Underground Sea and Volcanic Island wouldn't and Xantid Swarm exposes the manabase vs Wasteland where Thoughtseize doesn't. I believe these things come down to personal experience, as all of the cards serve equivalent functions regardless of which cards you use.

@Jax
@Dr_D

I buy your list too! that is likely and sadly the 60 i would run with 13 lands... no sihty island and the option of Badlands/Swamp - but I would buy that basic! I would hate to play 3 B.W. or 2 C.M. One thing I thought long time ago was that really it is a shame to not to get the most of a card like CR now you play 8 fetch and likely adding a single C.R. instead of C.M. could be a good idea... but again you just loose speed...

I can say all master of the universe about TES thinks the same way...
Even we all by here seem to discuss and disagree to death the reallity is that Typical lists vary from +1/-1 on Discard/C.Mox/B.Wish/Land in base from ones to others... YES Mr. B/My dear Lemnear/F.F. that's why -among other reasons - I find funny sometimes disccusions/disagreements with you all and company - I forgot the name shit - TankDiscussionMinds - joke - well maybe you FF dont belong to that...

Mine just has always been the same - I could say is like -1 Land +1discard from typical list at its simplest... sad but true guys!

From SDT banning/Grixis/4CC era and now ShitMiracles era I've not varied too much but my staples have been Decay/ET and varying from SE/IoK/DoubleTendrils/D.R. Sure I can handle XS but when played again Silence Experiment was mostly the same problem - just diff. angles. so no much change... but I enjoy at the same time XS as silence!

the base just changed from -1GM-1Fetch... sad.
I really like as example changing my side! now I am toying with Infernal Contract! the other day as example i really like the way it worked for me...but there are also staples there...

Cards on te stack to test/try/funplay: Ground seal, DD (yees) because of next card: Act of Impulse! in 2nd games you just can add I.C/AoI then switch to grind UpTo2Lifes grindy mode!

i want to go back to my other pet deck DD with Conjurer's Bauble!!

Nobody ask for my list... snif... well done F.F.! someones just fall into oblivion... joke.

Please use proper capitalization and grammar in your posts. Thanks. -zilla

Jax-

01-25-2018, 05:23 AM

This is to answer the people who are PMing me for a list,

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grape Shot
1 Dark Petition
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Consign/Oblivion
1 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapour
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou

There's no "secret sauce," I just prefer the consistent land drops, additional Burning Wish targets and Diminishing Returns over Telemin Performance right now. I don't find Island, Badlands and Xantid Swarms to be reliable, sometimes the Island and Badlands cause mulligan issues that Underground Sea and Volcanic Island wouldn't and Xantid Swarm exposes the manabase vs Wasteland where Thoughtseize doesn't. I believe these things come down to personal experience, as all of the cards serve equivalent functions regardless of which cards .

I think that Badlands is way better than Volc post board in a lot of MUs.
IMO the worst deck matchup right now is Grixis Delver and probably BUG. Cutting Island seems just wrong. With your list the only card you side in is TS, definetly worse than the 2nd EtW from stock list.
Also I really dislike tutorable answers, they are slow in matchups where you want to be as fast as possible. I really like tutorable win conditions so Telemin Performance is pretty good.
Xantid Swarm are not for wasteland decks but for S&T and Miracles, I don't think they are a flex slot right now, Miracles numbers are growing up because the deck is good and have a favourable Grixis Delver MU.

Dr_D

01-26-2018, 09:16 AM

Pelikanudo

01-27-2018, 07:18 AM

Hi!
I've been toying around with the idea of DD/AoI, and at its simplest there are some options:

beeing AoI and DD in side for 1st games:
the common pile is having AoI in main: BW,LED,LED,GP,AoI, you just need: Cantrip+2R then U,
the you can add more cantrips and/or IT to the equation and reduce mana costs: Ex.: Ponder+GP:, you just need: U! and the pile would be: BW,LED,LED,AoI,LED.

if these examples come from having AoI in base then you can use this strategy for 2nd and 3rd games, if not, then you have that path also but adding 1R to the mana cost.
then you can have a hand like Ponder,GP,BW,Petal,RoF,D.R,Land and landed land and win. this is just an example of scenario but there are lots more!
the important aspect is that you have lines with BW as a threat that do not go through GY/simetrical/LifeCost AND the manacosts just sometimes are ridiculous - you just can set up for DD with BW and just a GP + BBB2R is needed to win or BBBU with 1Cantrips+GP or BBBB1 with IT+GP...

One thing I like about AoI is that is perfectly castable and doesn't have impediments like IU or IC..., so adding 1 to the main even will increase speed.

well sure maybe this is nonsense... but i just like to try things to my inmutable TES deck... but having all these soo funny options at just the cost of 2 side slots... You know I'm very optimistic...

Opinions?

Dr_D

01-27-2018, 05:08 PM

Pelikanudo

01-28-2018, 08:03 AM

I'd love for Doomsday to be playable in TES as I love the card and having an engine that gets around Teeg is very real. However, having to play AoI to support Doomsday is going to hurt the deck more than it will help it. It'll be neat to hear how your testing goes though.

Yesterday was the 1st testing... but not much testing was done only a 4 round tournament and needed to go out on 3rd round.
it was 1CullingTheWeak round which I won, an AN deck which I lost and a 4C Control deck which I won.
it is in deed sad to say that the 2 slots I cut were 2 IoK which vs AN would have helped. I just sided vs AN 1 AoI and nothing else but was too much optimistic about the match up as I usually win with no effort - I dropped 12 Gobs OtP 1st turn hoping to not to loose on his 2nd turn and having the option to draw IT/BW/cantrip into discard or discard itself in the meantime. the 2nd game was just a 1st turn win from his side. sad.

I just have 2AD 2ET and 2IoK/Surgical/Extirpate/Xantid/MoreTendrils/MoreEtW/ etc available slots. In deed DP in my side has not been doing a good job for me lately - it is likely the less used slot which I sometimes change for other cards like DR, etc. so maybe adding 1 IoK for the DP can help.

The plan I have with DD/AoI is just to side AoI for a EtW and 1 CM for 1 Bayou vs general Control decks but really didn't do this vs 4CC what I made vs 4CC was -2Ponder-1CM=+1AD+1Bayou+1AoI - next I realized that the plan to setup a pile for leovold was nonsense... so maybe just -1ponder is ok. I really dislike taking out ponder when I side in AoI for obvious reasons, then having the option to just side it in for the EtW seems correct for example vs miracles. and also vs Combo/Even agro like Grixis (EtW stays vs Grixis).

I play magic from time to time and legacy is not a promoted format by here... so really do not have access to real tests. but hey! I just play mtg to spend a good time! Would be good If someone dares to test this... I find sad that no much paths are explored and when AoI was released I really found tons of options on the stack to be tested... I wonder why PiF base was tested but not this option as I saw cleat PiF an error... likely this DD is also an error but I expose the fact that 1 has been tested and the other didn't.

just out of cusriosity: I used to play TNT deck long time ago and a new card was spoled: Ubuntu the last recoking - like a Damnation by 3 mana. In TNT I believe it is great, I really do not know how good it could be in TES but this card just destroy ALL creatures by 3 mana - ths is something that at some point I'd like to test.

Final Fortune

01-28-2018, 10:09 AM

I think that Badlands is way better than Volc post board in a lot of MUs.
IMO the worst deck matchup right now is Grixis Delver and probably BUG. Cutting Island seems just wrong. With your list the only card you side in is TS, definetly worse than the 2nd EtW from stock list.
Also I really dislike tutorable answers, they are slow in matchups where you want to be as fast as possible. I really like tutorable win conditions so Telemin Performance is pretty good.
Xantid Swarm are not for wasteland decks but for S&T and Miracles, I don't think they are a flex slot right now, Miracles numbers are growing up because the deck is good and have a favourable Grixis Delver MU.

I imagine Badlands is better than Volcanic Island post-board if you have to SB in Abrupt Decay, but generally speaking Chain of Vapour is enough vs D&T and its ilk and Miracles won't put your manabase under pressure so we're talking about Eldrazi then?

Multiple Empty the Warrens can work against you just as much as they can work for you, if they MD Stifle or SB Flusterstorm I'd rather not consign myself to one line of play.

Xantid Swarm is only good against Miracles and Show&Tell tho', where discard is universally good across the board. I think Bayou and Abrupt Decay are already a big concession to Miracles as it is.

Massacre is pretty fast as far as hate goes, it'll clear their Ethersworn Cannonist along with their clock most of the time. Consign/Oblivion might be slow, but it stops them from just mulling into Chalice of the Void or Leyline of Sanctity.

I think Telemin Performance and Diminishing Returns basically serve the same functions in the deck, I generally switch between the two in the SB and Dark Petition, Infernal Tutor and the 3rd Duress between the SB and MD - these are really minor tweaks.

I'm pretty sure Island is just stretching the manabase, its two less fetchlands for Swamp and Bayou and it gets increasingly worse post-board. For me it's a bit inconsistent to argue for Badlands over Volcanic Island with the post-board argument but give Island a pass when its an order of magnitude more restrictive. There is a lot to be said for consistent mulligans, color access and 9 ways to a Swamp.

But regardless we are all our own judges in the end, so do whatever gets you results.

Bryant Cook

02-07-2018, 02:27 PM

http://theepicstorm.com/matchup-mulligan-4c-pile/

Bryant Cook

02-19-2018, 12:06 AM

http://theepicstorm.com/looking-glass-miracles-anuraag-das-sam-roukas/

jdmdave

02-20-2018, 06:37 PM

http://theepicstorm.com/looking-glass-miracles-anuraag-das-sam-roukas/

Great content as always. Your website is an absolute treasure.

Grapeshot

02-23-2018, 12:53 AM

New Infernal Tutoring!

http://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-14/

Polski_

02-27-2018, 07:45 AM

New TES: Matchup Battles - Turbo Depths

http://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-turbo-depths/

Klirre

02-28-2018, 04:50 AM

New TES: Matchup Battles - Turbo Depths

http://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-turbo-depths/

Thanks for another great article!

I think I have found an alternative line for game two in your example, why not play:

LED -> Chain on LED, copy by saccing volcanic, target his lotus petal. This forces the opponent to make a decision, and regardless of choosing rotating for bog or making a 20/20 you are free to play

Mire, fetch badlands, rite, rite, rite, led again, wish crack led, get dark petition, tutor, tendrils for the kill if he played crop rotation, otherwise you need to go for a pif loop to get to 10 storm.

Or am I missing some crucial thing here?

Edit: I've faced turbo depths decks playing maindeck Tabernacle, so empty the warrens could be a very risky line to take.

Edit2: I did miss something crucial, opp has spirit guide in hand to pay for crop rotation. My line is just bad then. Move along, nothing to see here.

jdmdave

03-01-2018, 02:28 AM

Thanks for another great article!

I think I have found an alternative line for game two in your example, why not play:

LED -> Chain on LED, copy by saccing volcanic, target his lotus petal. This forces the opponent to make a decision, and regardless of choosing rotating for bog or making a 20/20 you are free to play

Mire, fetch badlands, rite, rite, rite, led again, wish crack led, get dark petition, tutor, tendrils for the kill if he played crop rotation, otherwise you need to go for a pif loop to get to 10 storm.

Or am I missing some crucial thing here?

Edit: I've faced turbo depths decks playing maindeck Tabernacle, so empty the warrens could be a very risky line to take.

Edit2: I did miss something crucial, opp has spirit guide in hand to pay for crop rotation. My line is just bad then. Move along, nothing to see here.

New TES player, but very experienced depths player here. 95% of lists don't run tabernacle in the 75. Remember, Depths is still a quasi-budget deck and tabernacle doesn't really synergize with our gameplan. What you should be aware of is golgari charm/deluge.

Klirre

03-01-2018, 05:27 AM

New TES player, but very experienced depths player here. 95% of lists don't run tabernacle in the 75. Remember, Depths is still a quasi-budget deck and tabernacle doesn't really synergize with our gameplan. What you should be aware of is golgari charm/deluge.

Interesting info, thanks!

I suppose I'm still a new TES player too, I've had the deck for a long time but I rarely get the chance to play. I've played vs depths on modo one time, don't remember if I saw Tabernacle then. But I do know my local meta has a guy playing it in the maindeck.

Sg Schultz

03-06-2018, 06:08 PM

I've been having a miserable time on MODO today, I've gone 2-8 against all prison decks and decks packing hard answers in the main. I've been doing pretty well up until late, and the planets just seem to be aligning not in my favor. I'm usually going 3-2 or 4-1 except for the string of leagues today.

My list is the previous list that Bryant Cook 5-0'd with, I was wondering if the Echoing Truths he brought to Worcester is a better slot in the side compared to the third Decay.

Pelikanudo

03-07-2018, 03:03 PM

long time I don't post here. but hey! I have to have a reason!

nice to see in a event as worcester 2 TES list - the AJ Kerrigan list seems curious about the no PiF side slot. I would cut other slots but 1 thing I have to clear is that 4th therapy belongs to the 75 without a doubt. nice to see that.
Long time ago I cut Dark Petition but still leave PiF. I can say for me at least the only 2 reasons why I keep PiF side is that
a) it provides me a way to comfortably win If I need to pass the turn post A.N.
b) involves side strategy of 1ET to take it vs Leyline.

for me a) is key but maybe just does not worth..

however I recognize that I don't use it very often due to SE from side or everywhere DRS. sure sometimes you reach a bord of no DRS and beeing dicarded. not too often...

just a question to AJ if he is by here. do you use DP enough to worth it? I just used it to +1storm for EtW which is not enough for me...

if interested now I am at 2 Extirpate - I think they are fine. still 3GM not sre If Ill go back to 4 again... and same as always.

Bryant Cook

03-08-2018, 11:14 AM

My report from last weekend! I plan on swapping out the twitch embeds for youtube once SCG uploads the videos.

Enjoy!

http://theepicstorm.com/scg-worcester-02-03-04-2018-16th/

Bryant Cook

03-09-2018, 11:06 AM

All 3 camera feature matches of TES over the weekend have been added to the website:

http://theepicstorm.com/kazu-negri-vs-zachary-koch-death-taxes/
http://theepicstorm.com/bryant-cook-vs-benjamin-nikolich-grixis-delver/
http://theepicstorm.com/bryant-cook-vs-jim-davis-miracles/

Bryant Cook

03-12-2018, 03:28 PM

https://theepicstorm.com/reading-the-ropes-winning-the-game/

flrn

03-14-2018, 11:29 AM

It has been some time since I last played Legacy and after two to three leagues on Magic Online with ANT, I was sick of casting cantrip after cantrip and took TES for a spin. I took the latest list (I think you called it 4.1 in the video regarding SCG Worcester) and played it through some leagues. After some matches I figured out, why you had three Empty the Warrens in the sideboard and just how you described my win rate against Delver decks went up. I think I haven't lost a match against Delver since I started to bring in two additional copies of Empty the Warrens. Though I board differently than the plans you described in the video. I take out 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Infernal Tutor, 3 Duress and bring in 1 Bayou, 2 Xantid Swarm and 2 Empty the Warrens. I thought playing Swarm on turn one allows me to get around all those softcounters (Daze, Pierce, Flusterstorm) they play against us. I have no fucking clue wether that is wrong or right, but it worked for me thus far. But glad to hear your thoughts on it. I will give it a try in my upcoming leagues.

I have some questions regarding your thoughts on your current list. I am almost sure that some of them are being covered on your site or previously in this thread, but I don't have the time to read up two years worth of information, therefor it would be really nice if you could answer me here:

Whenever I want to be fast and I bring in Tendrils of Agony for Empty the Warrens, I also board out 1 Infernal Tutor to be able to go for Wish -> Infernal -> Tendrils. In your experience, is this line always covered by the Dark Petition in the board?
Why is the Basic Island in the main? I am playing the old manabase of 8 Fetch, 2 Usea, 1 Volcanic, 1 Swamp, 1 Badlands and I haven't had a match so far, where I wanted to fetch for it. Isn't it almost always better to have the Usea to be able to cast cantrip on turn 1 and a Discard spell/Dark Ritual off it on turn 2?
In your SCG Worcester video, you described your boarding against Miracles and you explained that you take out 4 Ponder. I never thought about taking out Ponder. Are there any other matchups, where you also touch them? Thinking about it, it might make sense against Blood Moon/Stompy decks, since you also want to be fast and you can get their lock pieces with Discard spells.
It seems to me, that there are a lot of matchups, where you want to be fast at the moment (Miracles, Chalice decks, Mirror, Turbo Depths). Could the second Ad Nauseam be good in the sideboard to bring it in in those matchups?

Anyway I am having a lot of fun with the deck, figuring out what to do in certain matchups and I just wanted to say thank you for putting up all these resources.

Bryant Cook

03-16-2018, 12:10 PM

https://theepicstorm.com/matchup-mulligan-eldrazi/
https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-bryant-cook-03-15-18/

Polski_

03-16-2018, 12:58 PM

Polski_

03-19-2018, 09:08 AM

New TES Matchup Battles - Eldrazi

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-eldrazi/

Thanks for reading!

- Alex Poling

Bryant Cook

03-22-2018, 07:42 AM

Wow, Jarvis Yu on theepicstorm.com! https://theepicstorm.com/looking-glass-lands-jarvis-yu/

Pelikanudo

03-24-2018, 02:08 PM

Wow, Jarvis Yu on theepicstorm.com! https://theepicstorm.com/looking-glass-lands-jarvis-yu/

I have to say thanks to Bryant for all the incredible and altruistic effort he continuously makes in his TES web site.
Really incredible effort.
I have not seen other person so much dedicated to a specific MTG Deck. and I as a dedicated TES player have to recognize that.

Sincerely Thanks Bryant.

Grapeshot

03-30-2018, 12:07 AM

New installment of Infernal Tutoring is here, check it out!

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-15/

Pelikanudo

03-31-2018, 07:39 AM

Hi TES guys!

there I go with my new brilliant idea - remember last one was DD+AoI Tech! Didn't work - It' s curious how 1 card affects to the entire deck in here - but AoI (like Grim Tutor in older eras...) in base is just shit with potatoes.

I really have not played Vintage at all but I see this like a format where you just land moxen and play wheel or timetwister or otherhellofcard. you just play superthreats with no drawback .

In legacy we have DaysUndoing and that's it is a 7draw card by 3 with B.W. it is a 5 mana cost.

Next torunament I'll try 1 in side and I'll expose reasons to play the card:

1) If you have C.M.+B.W. and you are able to not to combo - but instead generate 5 mana and see what's on the Opp because of GP. then it is a +1 land advantage over Opp.

2) 1st is aplicable to whatever scnearios which involve other cards landed - LED, Petal and you can't combo off- let's say If you can generate 5 mana + LED then you sure can combo off instead using DU - absurd. BUT there will be scenarios which you can just pitch FoW with duress lay petals, moxen LEDs and then DU. because maybe opp has a fluster. It is just a matter of Mana availability.

3) there can occur scnearios that you see a hand with no FoW and C.Therapy + GP instead - then you can not combo before opp. can plays C.T., then you just DU and avoid C.T. and even you have landed a C.M. it serves as a role to change hands on deman with unique drawback of losing a BW.

I believe DU just allows to go other directions, it is likely the most mana efficient engine we have to draw cards because BW+DU is just 5mana. I saw list in vitage playing 4BW for just Yawmoths in side. sure you just sometimes do EtW for 1 more mana. but sometimes it is just is not enough and I see that those sncearios are covered by DU.

The strange thing is that I want to replace this card by one in my side, but even I play D.R. in side - I do not find this as the replacement as they are roles completely diffrent - I use D.R. as D.P. or other combo engine, DU is just more like a draw Engine OR Mox Jet/Sapphire/Ruby OR 'Well I don't like that ChaliceThron or 3CabalTherapy Hand' card.

Opinions? has any given it a try?

Luklinda

03-31-2018, 01:54 PM

Pelikanudo

03-31-2018, 05:30 PM

Reset graveyards and give your opponent a fresh set of 7 cards, end your turn. Seems terrible.

Diminishing returns and Reforge the Soul seem infinitely better since you don't give your opponent an untap. I mean, it's bad against blue and not really needed against non-FoW decks. Not sure what match up it'd be worth the SB slot.

It seems that I am more optimistic than you. that's all.
I play D.R. in my side along with 2 extirpate also and maybe you can just extirpate their fows so that D.R. is just better. since I played DP I have not find it to be usefull at all - I thoutgh it was!
But the purpose of DU is different - just imagine the scenarios I exposed before and for those scenarios - DU is a puzzle piece. a different matter can be if those scenarios occurs the enough number of times to really worths the space. I agree in here.

I'll expose the following 6 scenarios and judge by yourself if those scenarious will not worth the space - as said - if those scnearios occur so few times then it does not worth - but this is something you can not know.

1) you face Eldrazi and keep a hand with LED, GP, land, RoF and B.W. OtP- if you GP and see thorn to be landed on next turn, would not you use DU if you can't combo off?
2) you are in the process of combo, then you are stopped and as not expected (because you needed to pay for pierce or daze as example) can't reach the 4 mana and lot of resources were invested,would you not DU instead? I really don't find these scenarios as I am a Friend Of Statistics.
3) 1) but when facing D&T and opp. is OtP- in here the odds are worse than in 1)
4) you face grixis OtP 1st turn and see no fow but therapy+GP+Daze+YP as example.
5) you have been ripped your hand via hymn/therapy and have no resources just a petal or LED landed and some lands, would not you DU if no other thing will save your ass?
6) CM+land+LED+GP against anything on the play and see no FoW, - this is important - would you not DU?

For 2, 4 and 5 scenarios if in any a extirpate effect to FoW has occurred, then it is even better.

I mean maybe you are right and these scenarios just does not worth the slot as EtW is just +1 mana and I just have spent too many time playing TES and need to play some cards just to see what happens and for funny purposes.- as DD+AoI - but a matter of -1 mana or draw7 by 5 is just too good to be ignored - even if your opp also draws 7. But hey! apart from Bahamut and his team I was the 1st person proposing GP+Therapy package - sure still with no EtW and that was a good idea! don't you think?

I'll give it a try and likely I'll go back to my still 3Gemstones list... well just likely.

Sinkhole

04-02-2018, 09:18 AM

Hallo,

after 2 years of a break with playing Magic I`ve decided to start again. I have always played T.E.S but it was in the time of the 5 Color/ Chant version. Now after testing the new 3-C list I think it`s really better. Manabase is more stabil and I`am most of the time able to cast my disruption against counters and other stuff, even with the inclusion of the basics I have a way to play arround Wastelands. I can not see how the Chant version would have a comeback. I am wrong and it is possible to play 5-Color TES again? I ask because I am thinking of selling my arabian nights citys and buying the needed duals for the money.

Pelikanudo

04-02-2018, 10:15 AM

Bryant Cook

04-03-2018, 07:41 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-wins-march-madness/
https://theepicstorm.com/matchup-mulligan-elves/

wonderPreaux

04-14-2018, 11:50 PM

Hey Everybody,

I just had a pretty interesting game on MTGO that I wanted to discuss, and I'm curious what thoughts people have on the hand I encountered. I'm going in blind on the draw, looking at the following hand:

Gitaxian Probe
Chrome Mox
Infernal Tutor
Dark Ritual
Empty the Warrens
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame

The first question is: would you keep?

I did end up keeping this hand, even if it looks a little loose at a glance. My thinking was that I had 2 draws on what is basically a 19-outer on a second IMS, which would be huge given that I have business AND rituals for both colors. Moreover, I could also get a red card to imprint for the 2 Rites and throw out a small EtW, so that's another 6 low-end outs. If the hand didn't match so well on business to rituals, or had Wish instead of EtW, I could see shipping it back for a 6. Ultimately, I figure I'd be hard-pressed to get a more explosive hand than this, and natural EtW gives me a bit of cover against a blue opponent.

My opponent serves up a Basic Swamp into Cabal Therapy, which is a bit unnerving given that I basically only play Storm and you can look up people's lists online. At least, it's unnerving until it registers in my head that the opponent targeted themselves and binned Griselbrand. Their remaining hand is as follows:

Reanimate
Animate Dead
Collective Brtutality
Bayou

So, things are looking spicy already. My draw for the turn is a Bloodstained Mire; we're in business. Given that life-totals aren't too critical in this matchup, and we can probably agree the Chrome Mox will end up imprinting on red or black, I don't think we need to go ahead and discuss my lead of paying 2 life for Probe. My opponent's hand is the same as it was a moment ago and I draw a Duress. My hand is now the following:

Bloodstained Mire
Chrome Mox
Infernal Tutor
Dark Ritual
Empty the Warrens
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Duress

Now, the big question is: what do I do about my impending demon problem?

The first thing you'll probably notice here is, despite a Chrome Mox, it's kinda hard to get Hellbent with one awkward spell of each color (Empty the Warrens for red and Duress for black). Moreover, I'd be going and picking a fight with a massive lifelink-er, which isn't exactly a solid Goblin matchup. You can Duress and then Tutor, but you would only have enough mana to search for the now-likely-Imprinted Empty the Warrens, and one Duress isn't a solution for two reanimation effects.

After tossing that around in my head while chatting about my opponent's deck (my opponent was a very nice guy, made for a pleasant match for the 7 turns it lasted), I finally came up with this:

Play Bloodstained Mire, search Volcanic Island.
Play Chrome Mox, Imprint Duress. (Storm 2)
Play Rite of Flame. (RR, Storm 3)
Play Rite of Flame. (RRRR, Storm 4)
Play Dark Ritual. (BBBRRRR, Storm 5)
Play Empty the Warrens. (BBB, Storm 6)
Play Infernal Tutor, search Cabal Therapy. (B)
Play Cabal Therapy, call one of the reanimation effects.
Flashback Cabal Therapy, call the other reanimation effect.

This left me with 11 Goblins and the opponent's hand clear.

So that's what I did, but I'm curious if there was another line that might have been better? Infernal Tutor doubling Duress, for example, is a slower option that preserves the Rites while still leaving you sweating his draw steps. It's also worth noting that, if the opponent doesn't top-deck an out, they can two-mode the Collective Brutality and discard whatever they draw to buy a whole extra turn, barring a Wish > Grapeshot/Tendrils of Agony finisher.

For those wondering, the opponent immediately topped Exhume and destroyed me.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to your comments.

Polski_

04-23-2018, 07:56 AM

New TES Matchup Battles - Elves

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-elves/

Thanks for reading!

- Alex Poling

FavoredRevenant

04-23-2018, 08:05 AM

@Preaux, it's a shame you lost after such a clean line, that was certainly the best thing I could come up with after looking at your puzzle for a few minutes.

In other news, I'm taking TES to the Atlanta open this coming weekend. Will anyone else who lurks here be there?

Bryant Cook

04-23-2018, 09:13 AM

Legacy Challenge Veeeeeedios:

Decklist - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-22-18-deck-list/

R1 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-22-18-round-1-vs-bryant_cook-vs-eronrelentless-with-grixis-delver/

R2 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-22-18-round-2-vs-bryant_cook-vs-magic-michael-with-death-and-taxes/

R3 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-22-18-round-3-vs-bryant_cook-vs-mzfroste-with-grixis-delver/

R4 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-22-18-round-4-vs-bryant_cook-vs-karolmo-with-death-and-taxes/

R5 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-22-18-round-5-vs-bryant_cook-vs-james_zhi-with-grixis-delver/

R6 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-22-18-round-6-vs-bryant_cook-vs-lennny-with-bug-delver/

R7 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-22-18-round-7-vs-bryant_cook-vs-kentaro_hokori-with-grixis-delver/

Pelikanudo

04-24-2018, 03:07 PM

To whom may interest:

well, just to know the other day I tested Days Undoing and among the 5 rounds ups I faced, this card made me win 2 match ups of 1 single round - it was not blue sure but I can guarranty that no other way I could have won both of these games. It is nice to have a 3 manacost card that reads: reset the game / don't mind your therapies hymn / play 1 land and draw 2 cards OtP / mulligan.

Then, I'll stay with DU by the moment, I suggest you all to test this card.

Having in mind this. DU could be a fine adition to the new version Bryant TES version - the only problem is that now plays 3 BW... so getting up the number of side cards is nonsense
It may seem logic the inclusion of 2nd EtW and 4th CM to get better vs grixis.
One thing everybody needs to understand about this match up is that - at least for me - the differences between winnng this match up and losing it is just Cabal Therapy - then on this aspect it may have sense or just enterely not - to add more CM to that equation between speed and beeing wrecked.

My latest build just took out extirpate for more value cards - just 1 single Carpet of flowers and the 13th land is fine vs grixis. Sure also DU gets better grixis a litle.

that shit day I took 2nd place but what shocked me was that I faced by 1st time a Red Dragon Stompy and miserably lost, I've been thinking in cards against this deck which still are polivalents.
I already play ET in conjunction to AD. but vs trini I want something proactive like serenity or seal or primordium so I thouthg in taking out some decays. then I suddently remembered Teferis Realm! so I'll give it a try also I want to see what this does as still didn't test! it is just a proctive catch all answer!

any opinion about Dragon Stompy? apart of already known strategies - well likely there is just not new strategies against this...

regarding side I play spree as my preferred anti artifact card, but I recognize pulverize is superior by adjusting the manabase. however everithing is nonsense in the face of trini.
I hope I don't have to play Ingot Chewer! as long time ago I didnt face trinis...

Jax-

04-25-2018, 04:12 AM

Isn't Diminishing Returns straight better than Days Undoing? I think I miss sometimes a win con that doesnt care about my life total, but giving a free turn to my oppo is not a solution.

Pelikanudo

04-25-2018, 05:55 AM

Isn't Diminishing Returns straight better than Days Undoing? I think I miss sometimes a win con that doesnt care about my life total, but giving a free turn to my oppo is not a solution.

I do play also DR. The card I dont play is DP.
The fact that it costs 3 mana and dont retire 10 cards allows you to not to be frightened of loosing AN and beeing quicker. Sure this does not win you the game that turn but yes on next one. The fact is that having this in side changes your mind regarding new evaluations.

You dont give a free turn to your opp. It is like playing aff. We are a deck that can land lot of cards so you are putting yourself in a better position than opp. depending on resources invested by you/opp.

Imagine aff emtying hands and next DU.

Lemnear

04-25-2018, 11:59 AM

Bryant Cook

04-27-2018, 08:29 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/reading-the-ropes-mulliganing/

Bryant Cook

04-30-2018, 07:23 AM

Lost playing for top 8 of the Legacy Challenge today. Below are my matches.

R1 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-29-18-round-1-vs-bryant_cook-vs-mikeantor11-with-uw-stoneblade/

R2 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-29-18-round-2-vs-bryant_cook-vs-bayesta_93-with-dragon-stompy/

R3 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-29-18-round-3-vs-bryant_cook-vs-call1me1dragon-with-lands/

R4 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-29-18-round-4-vs-bryant_cook-vs-yamakiller-with-bug-delver/

R5 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-29-18-round-5-vs-bryant_cook-vs-ultimar-with-grixis-delver/

R6 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-29-18-round-6-vs-bryant_cook-vs-muecke-with-ant/

R7 - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-4-29-18-round-7-vs-bryant_cook-vs-flowerdayonyon-with-deathblade/

Grapeshot

04-30-2018, 07:59 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-16/

Bryant Cook

05-03-2018, 09:39 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/matchup-mulligan-dragon-stompy/

Bryant Cook

05-16-2018, 01:06 PM

https://theepicstorm.com/looking-glass-grixis-delver-jonathan-sukenik/

Pelikanudo

05-17-2018, 06:10 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/looking-glass-grixis-delver-jonathan-sukenik/

It is nice to see that I agree with sukenik that to combat wasteland IT IS NOT NEEDED to have both - island and swamp. not even basics... (curiously by here I was telling backwards by other super TES storm pilots...)
nice read!

EDIT: I dare to say: island is a bad card in TES.

EDIT2:
I've been smashing all around here with my TES build lately... uniquely Dragon Stompy I loose sometimes hard.... and lost to ANT but that was bad luck - and I want to avoid this... just sometimes one has the nuts and sometimes not - I saw Extract and included not extract but Sadistic sacrament to see if it works... (Telemin can also works but prefer Bribery vs Renimate and sneak... and playing both seems nonsense)

and I've been thinking in just playing cards vs these kind of archetype (trini/chalice).... and changing to Grixis shell.
What I find is that sometimes I find that uniquely siding in the 13rd land (really doesn't matter which land it is) is enough to win grixis/delvers and co... so I've been thinking in just change from 2 decay/2ET to 4ET directly.
and now the question is: which 13th land would you play in side if no green is involved? I played bayou but really don't know which land I could play as 13th land in a 3gemstones 5 fetches 4 duals base... maybe 3rd USea or 1badlands? really don't know.

Note: Other storm partner has been involved in testing the Timewister in side and well it seems it is doing its job... in my last 3 local torunaments 1 of them I used it 2 times and was tempted to use it one more - my partner used it once and won that game.

I feel so good in this non senseis era.... smashing everibody... I wonder why I don't see more storm pilots doing well in torunaments...

Dr_D

05-17-2018, 12:16 PM

I wonder why I don't see more storm pilots doing well in torunaments...

I don't bother posting when I do well in locals anymore, because nobody really cares, and there's not enough big events.

Polski_

05-24-2018, 07:20 AM

New TES Matchup Battles - Maverick

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-maverick/

Thanks for reading!

- Alex Poling

Xenocide

05-24-2018, 06:49 PM

New TES Matchup Battles - Maverick

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-maverick/

Thanks for reading!

- Alex Poling

Nice article. Here's what I would do:

Play: LP, LP, DR, LED, CoV(targeting KotR), GS (1 @ MoR, 2 @ Teeg, 3 @ opp), IT (break LED) -> EtW, ETW (16 gobbs)

I don't think Ad Nauseam from 7 is very likely considering you have 2 petals and an LED in your hand already; I'd take my chances with goblins.

Hmm, the other option is leading with Ponder and if you hit a LED or DR you can just kill him, and if you don't you can still do the above (minus bouncing KotR). This is probably better.

wonderPreaux

05-24-2018, 11:20 PM

Nice article. Here's what I would do:

Play: LP, LP, DR, LED, CoV(targeting KotR), GS (1 @ MoR, 2 @ Teeg, 3 @ opp), IT (break LED) -> EtW, ETW (16 gobbs)

I don't think Ad Nauseam from 7 is very likely considering you have 2 petals and an LED in your hand already; I'd take my chances with goblins.

Hmm, the other option is leading with Ponder and if you hit a LED or DR you can just kill him, and if you don't you can still do the above (minus bouncing KotR). This is probably better.

In the second scenario, can't you win guaranteed with the following line?
Lotus Petal (S1)
Lotus Petal (S2)
Tap Lands (S2, UB)
Chain Petal, Sac Land (S3, B)
Chain Petal, Sac Land (S3, B)
Chain Teeg (S3, B)
Lotus Petal (S4, B)
Lotus Petal (S5, B)
Dark Ritual (S6 BBB)
Lion's Eye Diamond (S7, BBB)
Tutor, Crack All Rocks (S8, BBBBRR)
Burning Wish (S9, BBBB)
Tendrils of Agony (S10)

Xenocide

05-25-2018, 12:13 PM

In the second scenario, can't you win guaranteed with the following line?
Lotus Petal (S1)
Lotus Petal (S2)
Tap Lands (S2, UB)
Chain Petal, Sac Land (S3, B)
Chain Petal, Sac Land (S3, B)
Chain Teeg (S3, B)
Lotus Petal (S4, B)
Lotus Petal (S5, B)
Dark Ritual (S6 BBB)
Lion's Eye Diamond (S7, BBB)
Tutor, Crack All Rocks (S8, BBBBRR)
Burning Wish (S9, BBBB)
Tendrils of Agony (S10)

Ahh that's much better than my line; I forgot about the alternate mode on CoV (i.e. generate storm).

wonderPreaux

05-25-2018, 10:53 PM

Ahh that's much better than my line; I forgot about the alternate mode on CoV (i.e. generate storm).

Yeah, you can kinda think of it like Remand in Modern storm; it's a good, mana-efficient way to manage a threat, but then you can also sneak in a win with it now and again.

In other topics, I'm testing a list right now without Dark Petition. I haven't been Wishing for it at all, and siding out a Tutor for at least one extra EtW is a common enough thing for me against the BUx tempo/midrange decks that I haven't really felt the absence of Petition. 9 mana is also really demanding in combo matchups, so using Wish for something like Bribery has been faring better for me. I'm still tinkering with the exact replacement slot, but has anyone else been considering a SB without Petition?

Final Fortune

05-26-2018, 04:39 AM

Yeah, you can kinda think of it like Remand in Modern storm; it's a good, mana-efficient way to manage a threat, but then you can also sneak in a win with it now and again.

In other topics, I'm testing a list right now without Dark Petition. I haven't been Wishing for it at all, and siding out a Tutor for at least one extra EtW is a common enough thing for me against the BUx tempo/midrange decks that I haven't really felt the absence of Petition. 9 mana is also really demanding in combo matchups, so using Wish for something like Bribery has been faring better for me. I'm still tinkering with the exact replacement slot, but has anyone else been considering a SB without Petition?

Haven't really played with Dark Petition at all this year, personally I like Diminishing Returns in that slot more because it's good against most of the decks that Empty the Warrens isn't.

wonderPreaux

05-26-2018, 11:20 AM

Haven't really played with Dark Petition at all this year, personally I like Diminishing Returns in that slot more because it's good against most of the decks that Empty the Warrens isn't.

I'm currently thinking in about the same way, I've been rotating out Grapeshot and Petition and testing to see which combination of 2 from Telemin/Dim Ret/Bribery might serve the deck better. I think Diminishing Returns + Bribery might provide the most utility, so you can swing in with a good 6-/7-mana haymaker with any of your 8 tutor effects against most of the field.

Pelikanudo

05-27-2018, 02:12 PM

@wonderPreaux and FF:
yeah, long time ago I took out DP...
it is just not as efficient as I thought.. I always tend to think in terms of mana efficiency. in regards of engines.. and DP just does not worth it... becuase:
a) if you BW it with the idea to be played on next turn, then you need to pay the tough 5 mana it costs
b) if you use BW the same turn yu want to play it it is just 9 mana and absolutly needs LED.

I just suggest you to test Days Undoing. I lateley have been playing more times this card than DR even! I play Bribery also. and lately I've been testing Sadistic sacrament to just have better odds vs ANT as I exposed before as I'm seeing this match up as a straight 50% where just sometimes they have the nuts or backwards and want to avoid this... still not feedback on this anyway...

Apart: I think I am going to play a Grixis configuration and just say good bye by the moment to Decay - just 4 ET. and about the 13th land in the side, I think I am going to try Swamp. suggestions on 13th land in side are welcome - I do know I want a 13th land but really don't know which and also don't mind much which it will be...

@Dr_D: yeah! who cares... I just play for the sake of fun...
the other day I played a local in modern and played - dont know if you know the deck it is called the Gridfather - well I reached turns and I was going to win on turn 3 with Tezz the seeker ultimate -5 and on turn 2 opp plays Repeal - well a friend was looking at the game and - we all know it was 2nd turn - and opp.said it was 4th turn - I just said to opp it was 2nd turn and my fellow insisted - I just didnt mind and agreed it was 4th turn - what I mean is that who cares who wins or gets good results- for me the funny thing is just trying things and see if they work or not and -man I spend a good time both demonstrating things work and backwards! I just likely play MTG and I take it seriously too little...

do you think my english gets better?

wonderPreaux

05-27-2018, 06:29 PM

@wonderPreaux and FF:
yeah, long time ago I took out DP...
it is just not as efficient as I thought.. I always tend to think in terms of mana efficiency. in regards of engines.. and DP just does not worth it... becuase:
a) if you BW it with the idea to be played on next turn, then you need to pay the tough 5 mana it costs
b) if you use BW the same turn yu want to play it it is just 9 mana and absolutly needs LED.

I just suggest you to test Days Undoing. I lateley have been playing more times this card than DR even! I play Bribery also. and lately I've been testing Sadistic sacrament to just have better odds vs ANT as I exposed before as I'm seeing this match up as a straight 50% where just sometimes they have the nuts or backwards and want to avoid this... still not feedback on this anyway...

Apart: I think I am going to play a Grixis configuration and just say good bye by the moment to Decay - just 4 ET. and about the 13th land in the side, I think I am going to try Swamp. suggestions on 13th land in side are welcome - I do know I want a 13th land but really don't know which and also don't mind much which it will be...

Idk that I'd want Day's Undoing, I can't think of a single deck I'd feel comfortable passing the turn to. The particular issues I'm hoping Diminishing Returns can solve are issues where I'm trying to win right away, usually where the Wish > DP > Ad Nauseam line is too pressured to be practical, which is what led to me dropping DP from my sideboard. For example:

Post-Board Lands: Telemin, which was my DR slot before, is too chancy for this when they can just main a single Tireless Tracker. Moreover, 9 mana is hard to come by while dealing with Port/Waste and answering/racing Thorns. Additionally, Rotating in Bojuka is a real thing against Spell Mastery.
Post-Board Elves: Similar problem, the discard can slow you down to the point where the DRS machine-gun can put Ad Nauseam and PiF in an awkward state. Again, this isn't something to pass the turn on, this is something to try and give Wishes the ability to take the game.

Grapeshot

06-01-2018, 10:07 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-17/

Pelikanudo

06-03-2018, 10:31 AM

Idk that I'd want Day's Undoing, I can't think of a single deck I'd feel comfortable passing the turn to.

well, I don't think is bad to pass the turn if it is turn 1 or turn 2 and prior to this you've done your stuff. I tend to think on this card more like a BS EoT to win next turn or a setup Ponder to win on next turn. just think on this card as a setup card which serves to win you on next turn.

The particular issues I'm hoping Diminishing Returns can solve are issues where I'm trying to win right away, usually where the Wish > DP > Ad Nauseam line is too pressured to be practical, which is what led to me dropping DP from my sideboard. For example:

the reality is that with DR and having 3 mana left you are about 65% win rate, less than 3 mana is much likely to not to occur, but still an out - pass the turn and win next one. with DP means likely more odds to win having exact the same mana left (6+3) - the good thing I find about DR is that you can BW for DR and play it next turn (avoiding 2 mana - in here DP is a little worse just because it is +1 more mana but casting DP makes you win more likely than DR having left 3mana) to win on the spot - but then we are again in the same position as DU - which is mainly its purpose - land CM, a land play DU 1st turn and pass the turn to win on next turn.

Post-Board Lands: Telemin, which was my DR slot before, is too chancy for this when they can just main a single Tireless Tracker. Moreover, 9 mana is hard to come by while dealing with Port/Waste and answering/racing Thorns. Additionally, Rotating in Bojuka is a real thing against Spell Mastery.
Post-Board Elves: Similar problem, the discard can slow you down to the point where the DRS machine-gun can put Ad Nauseam and PiF in an awkward state. Again, this isn't something to pass the turn on, this is something to try and give Wishes the ability to take the game.
[/QUOTE]

well, those match ups are in deed not a problem for TES. so I really do not find them a reason to play DR or other card - but sure DR will improve those!

I am thinking in DU as a different card. and now - once I've proved its potential - I am evaluating other possibilities with this card. as example - next torunament I'll try a 4 CM/11 lands build just to potentiate those Turn1/2 DU. because DU makes you faster - sure you won't win on this same turn - but almost guarranties a next turn very good setup. and well the card advanage DU provides can be huge.

for your particular case I really think you don't have any problem and the possible fixes likely are just worse configurations - for example moving an IT to the side or play IGG...

as said, still more testing needs to be done to see if finally DU is a card to have in mind.

Apart,
@F.F.: please join to me in testing DU!!!

Final Fortune

06-04-2018, 06:26 PM

Pelikanudo

06-04-2018, 08:55 PM

I'm using Dimishing Returns and have no interest in testing a pass the turn D7, considering the deck has 4 Empty the Warrens I'd rather see goblins on the board immediately - no reason to pass on 4+ storm and X life for 1 mana IMO.

I really am lazy to expose arguments. so it is fine.
I am using DU in 1st or 2nd turn uniquely (really don't see scenarios where it is worth to play this card from 3rd turn up, but sure there will occur...) - DU is a different card than DR - as said I do also play DR. it is a quick setup card.
the thing I do not understand is that it is just 1 card in side that provide insane plays in 1st 2nd turn. it is much better to have this instead of 4th EtW which are mainly for Grixis (math up where I don't bother in adding even more than 1 side card...)

as said my next level test is 4 CM just to see how much potential has this card, I've dimissed other cards but really believe this has potential...

Bryant Cook

06-07-2018, 07:50 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/matchup-mulligan-br-reanimator/

Pelikanudo

06-24-2018, 06:45 AM

Hi guys,

I'd like to know your impressions about:

[M19] Amulet of Safekeeping

(likely the same as me...)

my beliefs are:
well I just prefer to cast AN under this than under chalice, thorn, null rod, MM, etc.
BUT,
well this is a card that handles both EtW and Tendrils at the same time.

I don't think Chalice decks will play this card instead of thorn/chalice/trini - it would be a hell if they start playing the card in adition to those cards.
but my concern is if grixis/4CC start playing this card - not likely to see this in these builds as I just think it could be a Toxic or Fluster or null rod slot for them. but the scenario again will be: still prefer they to have in hand this card instead of null rod / fluster.

I think I will gain very few value from my already existing SS in my side - but this is my anti artifact card and likely a must if I see this card from opp. sides.

I anyway think that if WoC realeases a 2 artifact colorless card that reads: Storm players can't win and spells to play cost 10 mana more. we still will win ;)

Final Fortune

06-24-2018, 08:15 AM

It does less than Stifle, and people don’t even use that. Even as a permant based hate card in BUG at 2cc, what does it do in any match up besides Storm?

Bryant Cook

06-24-2018, 08:36 PM

Top 8 in the Sunday Legacy Challenge.

Deck - https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-6-24-18-deck-list/
R1- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-6-24-18-round-1-bryant-cook-vs-hardtimes4nik-with-eldrazi-aggro/
R2- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-6-24-18-round-2-bryant-cook-vs-cartesian-with-aluren/
R3- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-6-24-18-round-3-bryant-cook-vs-iwouldliketorespond-with-uw-control/
R4- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-6-24-18-round-4-bryant-cook-vs-tmt_noski-with-burn/
R5- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-6-24-18-round-5-bryant-cook-vs-antzzzonalog-with-grixis-delver/
R6- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-6-24-18-round-6-bryant-cook-vs-atdawn_theysleep-with-4c-control/
R7- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-6-24-18-round-7-bryant-cook-vs-renerandrup-with-grixis-delver/
T8- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-6-24-18-top-8-bryant-cook-vs-antzzzonalog-with-grixis-delver/

Polski_

06-25-2018, 12:22 AM

New TES Matchup Battles - Death's Shadow

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-deaths-shadow/

Thanks for reading!

- Alex Poling

Grapeshot

06-29-2018, 10:05 AM

New Infernal Tutoring, featuring Landon Sworts!

http://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-18/

Pelikanudo

07-02-2018, 04:13 PM

well guys, It finally happened. GP is banned.

I really don't know if I am happy or not with this... I just was winning too much with this deck in legacy...
I mean GP just makes the deck better - no doubt - but also makes Grixis worse or even not a viable option and I wonder how the meta will develop from now on.

We'll likely see again those Nimbles and stifles around and those Stoneforge and maybe Standstills!

Now My main concern is:
will we still face hate from sevaral angles or not? I believe this is the main question we all TES players must do because if we see just stifles, fluster and fows, then Silence is the way to go, otherwise TSeize will be the way to go... But I hate comparing TSeize to CTherapy - I think CTerapy is more like Silence as it is just a card that can handles several Fows/Flusters/Stifles with a single shot. and this is something that uniquely silence does.

Lets start my thouthg process:

a) I think we need a robust way to handle several FoWs / Fluster post/pre side
- this means CTherapy OR Silence
- If we opt for CTherapy we need then full discard - maybe 3 CT 3Duress 2TSeize can be an option OR 2 CT 4Duress 2TSeize. But I just love too much CT
- If we opt for Silence we can just play 4 Duress 4 Silence and thats it, but we loose EtW synergy.

b) We can just simply to not to play neither of these cards - means 4 Duress 4 TSeize BUT then we just will need to hit as many times as fluster/FoW/Stifle opp. has in hand. and we again will loose to a predictable meta of snares/pierces/stifles- sure maybe I am anticipating too much.

c) we loose the TryForce, but do we really want to loose EtW+CT synergy? I think that IF we see Stoneforge decks again - likely - we should not take out this card from our 60.

d) do we still want EtW main ? I do and I think you all do.

I believe we are in a position like back in June 2012 - Example of staple decklist: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8590&iddeck=62693

well Having in mind all these considerations (sure there are more...) I just propose the following TES Post GP:

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
[
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
]
OR
[
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Empty the Warrens
]

4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual

[
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
]
OR
[
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
]

4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Bribery / TP
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past In Flames
SB: 1 Days Undoing
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

+Chain Of Vapor
+EtW
+Xantid, CoF, surgical, swamp, bayou...?

NOTES:
If you remember back those era - 2nd AN was an staple and needed evil - we don't want to run into cantrips - we just need threats - maybe a 2nd EtW in base can be a solution also.
13 lands 4 CM is fine for me - now that I am running DU - this was my last development, I am perfectly fine.

@Lem, FFortune, wonderPreaux, bahamut and all OldStormers, what are your thoughts?

I am quite enthusiastic with this new era... these bans are in deed good to legacy...

Final Fortune

07-02-2018, 06:29 PM

I disagree, banning Deathrite Shaman and Gitaxian Probe means Reanimator will be tier 1 and Storm will have to face a faster combo deck and the loss of Gitaxian Probe. I don't believe we will need to return to 3 colors, the 4th Chrome Mox, 14th land and 8 discard are more or less automatic.

I think 4 Duress, 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Cabal Therapy should be fine.

wonderPreaux

07-02-2018, 06:33 PM

I guess, since Probe was always around when I've been playing, I'll submit to being gainsaid by the more experienced players, but I think this isn't that bad. Also, I'm gonna talk about ANT a bit too, since the ban effects both decks that I play, Storm players probably read both these threads, and I don't want to have to double post about how the sky isn't falling for either deck.

I've been playing 16 cantrip ANT a lot lately, and loving it, so I don't really understand the problem people have playing Preordains now. The card is really good for what ANT wants to do, I'll just use the slots freed up by Probe for all the flex slots people skimped on Preordains for (things like the 15 land, 7th discard spell etc. - also Rain of Filth seems even better as the 9th rit since it now has a unique role of Threshold booster). For TES, I think this is much the same, you no longer have quite as much motive or opportunity for greedy deckbuilding, so just do a less greedy build. Run that 13th land if you were cutting it, run that 7th discard, 4th Wish w/e. I think the 4th Chrome Mox might be a thing in TES too, and I'll explain that in more depth a bit further down.

re: Discards spells
I'm going to start testing with a 3/2/2 split of Duress, Thoughtseize, and Cabal Therapy. This probably isn't ground-breaking or ingenious to anyone, it's probably the obvious way of addressing the lack of peeks for Therapy while still retaining the benefit of having Therapy in the 75. Still, I'm fine being at the "level 1" thinking here, I'm not going to pretend I'll have the hard-reads to make 3+ Therapy work, nor have I forgotten IoK can't snipe Force of Will.

re: Colors
I think green is a good option for exploring the new meta. Miracles and SnT didn't get any worse, so packing a couple Decay/Swarm for either Storm deck seems like a good exploratory option. That said, though, I think Wasteland will be even more relevant and played in the format, since there in no longer the ubiquitous DRS to bail out decks, so I would probably be sideboarding my green sources and running a robust basic lineup in ANT and the basic Swamp in TES (idk about the Island, though, as I think it's not as great in TES and very unattractive when running green)

re: WHY PLAY TES OVER ANT
I think, among all the dynamics a Probe ban represents, the biggest thing I see it doing is really defining straightforwardly the inflection points that make TES different to ANT. The line has blurred a lot these last couple years, and I think an inexperienced player would have a really hard time understanding that the decks are basically about rearranging what the primary, secondary, and tertiary approaches to winning the game are, even though there's nothing one deck does that the other couldn't. Now, with Probe gone, and the velocity afforded to ANT being hindered more due to the loss off Storm count and Threshold that Probe represented, the difference in what makes a Rite of Flame meaningful compared to Cabal Ritual is much larger. I think the identity of TES versus ANT has shifted more towards "This deck can win turn 2, and this deck doesn't". That'll shine in all the hatebear matchups where ANT has to nut draw to race the hatebear, but we have to worry about drawing Chrome Mox against control and so on and so forth. I think the best TES deck will be the one that most effectively abuses the volatility and explosiveness that makes up for what will probably be the clockwork T3 of ANT.

onemancannon

07-02-2018, 06:47 PM

I disagree, banning Deathrite Shaman and Gitaxian Probe means Reanimator will be tier 1 and Storm will have to face a faster combo deck and the loss of Gitaxian Probe.

THIS. Exactly THIS. Headed over to the RB Griselbee camp. I'll see you guys when the dust settles and hopefully the mongeese aren't still standing.

I have 11 days until Worcester, no time to tinker and test. T1 windmill slam some fatties GOOO!

On a constructive note: Let's assume that RUG will be back. Why are we suggesting a Gem Mine/ 4 fetch non basic mana base against stifles AND wasteland which gets stronger without the best Mana dork around.

Lemnear

07-02-2018, 07:09 PM

Most depends on where the meta moves, but therapy seems pretty bad with us loosing 4/7 peak effects at the same time the meta is shaken up to the point of dredge, reanimator, loam, Canadian, SnT, DnT, etc all popping up again for a while. Thoughtseize is just much more reliable at this point.

This has also influence on the matter of EtW, the number of discard needed, the landcount, speed overall and more. The 14th land is as reasonable now as the 8th discard. Without Probe there is no Triforce left, Therapy becomes much more of a gamble, the deck gets slower and free stormcount is removed, which all put giant question marks behind EtW itself. I don't know if the card got better due to the removal of DRS as annoying blocker & accelerator or worse due to the loss of the named speed and free storm.

Depending on how fancy you are experimenting, you can start off with +1 mox, +1 land, +1 discard and +1 EtW. Personally, I think I will parts way with Therapy as well as the MD EtW for good in order to run 4 Thoughtseize.

I will durdle with something like this in the next days:

4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Diamond
4 Cystal Vein
2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

Pelikanudo

07-03-2018, 07:57 AM

@FFortune:

well so long time elapsed since I didn't face UB Reanimator that didn't have this in mind... so you are right. I really hated that math up and DRS really kept those at bay... snif...
I'll start with 2/3 SE in side.

I think that likely a split of 4/2/2 is a good starting poing of discard - I'll try that! but remember! duress/TSeize is not CTherapy - CT is such a strong effect... 6 peek effects are fine for 2 CT... I'll see if I need to increment those.

I wonder also if 1 single Reanimate in side could help me vs those incoming reanimators... opinions?

What do you exactly mean with: "I don't believe we will need to return to 3 colors"

@wonderPreaux: Nice points! I can't disagree on anything... I'll start with 3 colors and keeping a Swamp in side - nothing else. ETruth/CoV could be enough as I don't consider Miracles a real deck.

@onemancannon: I do know wastelands/Rishadans will raise in numbers but those has never been a problem for me I just prefer redundancy of mana availability than beeing stock with an island which does nothing. but hey that's me! run the manabase that suits better for you, from my stock list unchanged in years I just added 4th gemstone and there will be 1 swamp in my side also.

@Lem: well, I saw that list and it has 0 sense to me by several reasons:
1) unless you have LED OR Moxdiamond it 'll be harder for you to get hellbent soon - a needed requirement if you want to be fast.
2) where is RoF? I understand the numbers behind but no RoF?
3) you argue full TS and life lose to not to include EtW? statistics don't work that way man.
Hey! maybe my The Dark Storm deck is a thing to have in mind try that instead! joke.

Apart, the other day I tested against a sinkhole/tomsbtalker/pierces/stifles deck and really enjoyed the match up - I lost 2-1 but both looses were due to Toxic deluge from top deck. and DU won me 1 match up.

Questions:
2 AN / 1 EtW or 1 AN / 2 EtW ?

EDIT: I've been always playing with 12 lands 3 CM, but I wonder if 14 lands 4 CM can be correct as I find them too many - and then swithc to a fetch mana base... maybe it is time to make that change...

Dr_D

07-03-2018, 08:25 AM

2 AN / 1 EtW or 1 AN / 2 EtW ?

That's going to be heavily dependent on where the meta settles and if it ends up being more fair or unfair, so it's a bit early to know that for sure.

Lemnear

07-03-2018, 08:52 AM

@Lem: well, I saw that list and it has 0 sense to me by several reasons:
1) unless you have LED OR Moxdiamond it 'll be harder for you to get hellbent soon - a needed requirement if you want to be fast.
2) where is RoF? I understand the numbers behind but no RoF?
3) you argue full TS and life lose to not to include EtW? statistics don't work that way man.

I don't get your 1) because it seems you miss the fact that we lost speed, deck compression as well as free information and free storm anyways. Daze, Stifle and wasteland will rise again and games are going to be slower anyways as you have to cast discard to see if the coast is clear. To me it makes no sense either in that context, if you opt to run with a light manabase and several EtWs (lacking the free stormcount of Probe) right into Daze + Stifle as a result of a predictable surge of classic tempo strategies.

I replaced RoFs +1 mana with the +2 net mana of sol lands, which improve the board against Daze & Pierce, especially in the context of the already slower games mentioned.

I don't run MB EtWs because its fucking miserable to flip 4cc cards to AN after you fought with fetches and Thoughtseize though counters. If you want to talk statistics, you should start comprehend lists and realize the DOUBLED amount of Artifact IMS and ridiculous low average cmc of that 60. You easily flip 20+ cards with just 13 life, lowering Ad Nauseam variance to new levels, reducing the odds to fizzle or having to pass the turn. The point against EtW is that you will face much more combo + Stifle matchups in the next weeks as well as a huge devaluing of the spell resulting from the speed loss suffered.

Zombie

07-03-2018, 09:35 AM

which all put giant question marks behind EtW itself. I don't know if the card got better due to the removal of DRS as annoying blocker & accelerator or worse due to the loss of the named speed and free storm.

Intuitively I'd say making Goblins is likely to be really good now - DRS doesn't just block, it gains life. Most one drops, even if they're stronger in some ways are moreso strong aggressively, but nowhere near as good at playing defense, especially against an opponent going really wide on T1/T2.

JackaBo

07-03-2018, 09:42 AM

I agree that ad naseaum seems very good versus stifles and that empty seems worse without probes, against stifles and possibly batterskulls.
However pif has also gained alot with the removal of DRS and it's good vs stifles.
It's also a decent spell to AdN into, doubling any drawn rituals.
Pif is way better tutor into, than to wish into.
How about replacing MD empty with pif?

Pelikanudo

07-03-2018, 10:18 AM

I don't get your 1) because it seems you miss the fact that we lost speed, deck compression as well as free information and free storm anyways. Daze, Stifle and wasteland will rise again and games are going to be slower anyways as you have to cast discard to see if the coast is clear. To me it makes no sense either in that context, if you opt to run with a light manabase and several EtWs (lacking the free stormcount of Probe) right into Daze + Stifle as a result of a predictable surge of classic tempo strategies.

When I mean you loose speed by incrementing the land count to 19 (whoa 19!) I mean also you loose COMPLETELY the ability to just go off in 1st / 2nd turn. I just don't want to be a belcher deck, but I want a deck that CAN behaves like a belcher deck when it needs to - this is the purpose of TES - you can win on 2nd turn by just noting that Opp just does not play blue (aka D&T which will raise also) or has FoW but not blue. that design assumes you will not able to win in 1st turn and neither 2nd turn. I just want to avoid that.

I replaced RoFs +1 mana with the +2 net mana of sol lands, which improve the board against Daze & Pierce, especially in the context of the already slower games mentioned.

Well, you can play 1 RoF and the 2nd one the same turn, this is something you cannot do with SolLands unless you play Exploration. this is sad but true.
well in the context of daze and pierce SolLands are better likely than RoF - why you just don't try also Lake of the Dead?

I don't run MB EtWs because its fucking miserable to flip 4cc cards to AN after you fought with fetches and Thoughtseize though counters. If you want to talk statistics, you should start comprehend lists and realize the DOUBLED amount of Artifact IMS and ridiculous low average cmc of that 60. You easily flip 20+ cards with just 13 life, lowering Ad Nauseam variance to new levels, reducing the odds to fizzle or having to pass the turn. The point against EtW is that you will face much more combo + Stifle matchups in the next weeks as well as a huge devaluing of the spell resulting from the speed loss suffered.

I'll tell you an example of what I mean:

you play a deck (deck a) with 60 cards and among them 1 card costs 10 mana, rest cost 1 mana
you play a deck (deck b) with 60 cards and among them 2 card costs 5 mana each, rest cost 1 mana.

well, deck a and b have exact the same average mana curve. I recognize this was one of the things that fucked me the most when I had to play back in 2012 2 AN in my deck (I played instead 1 preordain, 1 Grim Tutor and shit like this - but that was not correct).

Again EtW is good vs Tempo Decks, not bad, even if they play 4 stifles. (plus fluster from side.)

as always, you and me just go in diff directions and trying to expose arguments to convice each other just will not work... and I and you do know that your next try will be Carpet of Flawers main. why don't we just try to adapt slightly the deck to a non GP era? just 3/5 cards in base and some in side? I just not ask for more...

EDIT: JackaBo: PiF base will not work in TES, we need to focuse in 1 engine - AN. Sure you can add PiF but you'll need to add then CRits and then dilute the main strategy of the TES engine. I don't think it is the way, but I can't guarranty it is the opposite. I remember in other eras PiF was tested. but I believe it was also an error.

Lemnear

07-03-2018, 10:20 AM

Intuitively I'd say making Goblins is likely to be really good now - DRS doesn't just block, it gains life. Most one drops, even if they're stronger in some ways are moreso strong aggressively, but nowhere near as good at playing defense, especially against an opponent going really wide on T1/T2.

I think that not having free peak and stormcount is hurting EtW and that blind EtW has now a much higher chance to be greeted by Stifle, Daze or a combo deck sitting across than during the time ~23% of the metagame was playing aggro-control with discard.

It's just the expected rise of combo and tempo in the current meta uproar which make me want to test a more conservative approach with less of the guessing game Therapy and EtW require to some extend. As said, it's a test. We'll know more when the dust settled.

I agree that ad naseaum seems very good versus stifles and that empty seems worse without probes, against stifles and possibly batterskulls.
However pif has also gained alot with the removal of DRS and it's good vs stifles.
It's also a decent spell to AdN into, doubling any drawn rituals.
Pif is way better tutor into, than to wish into.
How about replacing MD empty with pif?

I think that classic Prosak style Brainstorm+Ponder+Preordain AnT lists are in a really good spot right now with Daze+Stifle having room for a comeback. They gained a lot more from the bans than TES. I am no fan of PIF being combined with bad Rituals like RoF, fastmana like Chrome Mox and a more fragile manabase than AnT. To include PIF would mean stocking up the amount of rituals, by prolly adding 2 Cabal Rituals. However, if i would be ok with raising the average cmc while removing the focus from EtW, going straight AnT seems to be much easier.

Lemnear

07-03-2018, 11:10 AM

When I mean you loose speed by incrementing the land count to 19 (whoa 19!) I mean also you loose COMPLETELY the ability to just go off in 1st / 2nd turn. I just don't want to be a belcher deck, but I want a deck that CAN behaves like a belcher deck when it needs to - this is the purpose of TES - you can win on 2nd turn by just noting that Opp just does not play blue (aka D&T which will raise also) or has FoW but not blue. that design assumes you will not able to win in 1st turn and neither 2nd turn. I just want to avoid that.

Because i am preparing for the games I have to cast Discard or play around Daze, which means games going to turn 2 or 3 That also means getting to drop more lands if needed or throwing lands into a Mox/Diamond you hold or cantrip into. Nothing stops you from feeding a land to a Mox, drop Sol Land, Petal and LED to tutor for Ad Nauseam, or feed a sol land to Mox, cast Brainstorm, fetch, cast Ponder to follow up with a T2 Sol Land to have 4 mana and access to 5 colors ON THE FIELD against Daze & Pierce. I fear you underestimate how ponder, Brainstorm, Mox diamond and LED can solve the issue of bricking due to lands and how many lands your can drop/dump if you don't tie yourself to the T1 combo idea.

Well, you can play 1 RoF and the 2nd one the same turn, this is something you cannot do with SolLands unless you play Exploration. this is sad but true.

No, but you can feed them to Mox, Diamond or just drop them turn 2 after you casted your T1 Thoughtseize and passed. Again, I am not questioning the value of quick mana acceleration which RoF provides for T1/T2 combos, but I guess that it might be less relevant without free ways to check for FoWs (or the oppoenents deck in general), free stormcount and us suddenly no longer playing a 56 card deck aka less redundancy

well in the context of daze and pierce SolLands are better likely than RoF - why you just don't try also Lake of the Dead?

I think there is a land destroying other nonbasic lands which would gladly trade 1-for-2 with a Lake

I'll tell you an example of what I mean:

you play a deck (deck a) with 60 cards and among them 1 card costs 10 mana, rest cost 1 mana
you play a deck (deck b) with 60 cards and among them 2 card costs 5 mana each, rest cost 1 mana.

well, deck a and b have exact the same average mana curve. I recognize this was one of the things that fucked me the most when I had to play back in 2012 2 AN in my deck (I played instead 1 preordain, 1 Grim Tutor and shit like this - but that was not correct).

But i am not replacing 10cc flips with two 4cc flips like EtW, but remove every flip damage greater than 2 and replace 1cc accelerators with 0cc ones in order to minimize issues you would potentially face when you have to cast Thoughtseize against a deck like Delver. You cant let fetches, delver, bolt & Thoughtseize eat up your lifepoints and expect that an Ad Nauseam remains an option if you can't drop below 5 life without the sudden death of flipping EtW. All i am trying is mitigating the damage of running Thoughtseize in a now inevitably slower 60 card deck.

Again EtW is good vs Tempo Decks, not bad, even if they play 4 stifles. (plus fluster from side.)

On the other hand, the statistics of TES vs RUG Delver are far from great overall, especially on the draw. Sure, goblins are great if landed, but getting there against Stifle/Fluster/Daze/FoW is far from easy. In addition the blind move for EtW can be very risky with a potential surge of combo decks

Why don't we just try to adapt slightly the deck to a non GP era? just 3/5 cards in base and some in side? I just not ask for more...

Because you ask to revert the deck back to the days prior to Delver, TNN, Snapcaster, Thalia, Leovold, Griselbrand, etc. While everyone else keeps playing tech/cards released in these 7 years since Probes printing. We need a modern day solution, not just dig up a 2011 list and think it works.

Final Fortune

07-03-2018, 01:42 PM

Lemnear

07-03-2018, 01:57 PM

I thoroughly tested TES, say that three times fast, last night and I can say you should cut Cabal Therapy completely: without Gitaxian Probe you can't rely on Cabal Therapy as a reliable discard spell at all. I think we're better off with 4 Duress and 3 Thoughtseize, 14th land and 4th Chrome Mox with an open flex slot.

I don't see a reason to cut MD Empty the Warrens, from what I've seen a lot of people are playing U/W Blade with Snapcaster Mages all over the place. I'm sure RUG Canadian and Stifle are more than viable, but that just means the 3xEmpty the Warrens SBs need to be scrapped. T2 Empty the Warrens behind T1 discard is a HUGE part of what makes this deck what it is and our AN flips are only getting better thanks to 4th Mox and 14th land regardless.

I'll post the list I'm working on shortly.

Gladly taking all input. You felt like 7 discard is still enough?

wonderPreaux

07-03-2018, 01:58 PM

I thoroughly tested TES, say that three times fast, last night and I can say you should cut Cabal Therapy completely: without Gitaxian Probe you can't rely on Cabal Therapy as a reliable discard spell at all. I think we're better off with 4 Duress and 3 Thoughtseize, 14th land and 4th Chrome Mox with an open flex slot.

I don't see a reason to cut MD Empty the Warrens, from what I've seen a lot of people are playing U/W Blade with Snapcaster Mages all over the place. I'm sure RUG Canadian and Stifle are more than viable, but that just means the 3xEmpty the Warrens SBs need to be scrapped. T2 Empty the Warrens behind T1 discard is a HUGE part of what makes this deck what it is and our AN flips are only getting better thanks to 4th Mox and 14th land regardless.

I'll post the list I'm working on shortly.

I think a pair of Cabal Ritual in your flex slot and taking the place of 4th Chrome Mox may be worth a look. Better PiF loops and not drawing multiple Chromes as often could be pretty good. IDK that you should jettison Therapy entirely, it's a way to generate card advantage and force spells to be played in response, upping the Storm count. With Wishes too, it could at least be justified as a sideboard slot.

Final Fortune

07-03-2018, 08:31 PM

Gladly taking all input. You felt like 7 discard is still enough?

7 disruption was the standard before Gitaxian Probe, I'm testing a couple of other choices like the 15th land, 9th cantrip, 9th ritual etc. I might go back to the 8th discard if for no other reason there isn't a better card for the slot, and it's probably the best possible choice vs Reanimator since you have to play the control role.

I can give you another reason not to cut MD Empty the Warrens, with UW Blade coming back it's inevitable we're going to see Meddling Mage and that means you'll either get locked out of your kill condition or have to SB in your only Empty the Warrens not to.

Pelikanudo

07-04-2018, 10:12 AM

@Guys:
While I do think we are in a completely unexplored field - we can assume certain facts - I do think that we can make a set up of possible choices. One is the fact that CTherapy is a strong effect and we've played CT with very few peek effects to a good success in the past - sure it is worse if we face Chalice decks or UB Reanimator than Duress, but as wPreaux says is an effect that can handle several copies of 1 single card or make opp. play in resp and IT is our unique card advantage slot (apart of AN of course). This moreless effect is done by Silence. that is why I think we should play one of these 2 effects - Silence OR CT. but as I said I don't know If we will face several angles of hate and then we will need to play plain discard - likely.

14 lands along with 4 CM is in my opnion excesive for TES. I don't think we've played so many IMS in TES ever. I could see 14 and 3 CM or backwards but not those numbers. maybe I am wrong because ou play so many fetches - while I am not but you'll find likely land flood.

I think 8 discard/silence effects is the proper number for TES right now. I was playing 7 - you guys were playing 6, so I understand you reach now 7 - not 8.

I think the deck can be tweaked to have a PiF main engine (along with 1 or 2 CRit), but I don't think it is the way TES wants to go - I dare to say it is backwards - focus on AN plus BW.

I don't think 9th cantrip is the way we should go - we need threats that's why I proposed 2nd EtW or 2nd AN - I will definately start with 2nd AN.

My initial take will defintely be like old 2012 lists with 4 Silence 4 Duress (those lists used 3 Silence 2 Orims 3 Duress) and 2 AN and not Tendrils main (this is the difference from old lists!)
but EtW instead along with full moxen and 13 lands (I before played 12 but not shit of badlands or swamp or island...). and see what happens from there - I also will enjoy nostalgic on this - the difference is that now EtW is played main instead of that useless Tendrils. AND I will not tire of repeating it - Days Undoing is a GREAT card which makes BW even a good threat card. As said I'll likely change to full discard if I start facing too much diversified hate. but as example - 2/3 SE backed up by Silence is not bad vs Reanimator.

Once my 1st local I'll see how this goes...

One thing I've been thinking is if 1 Dark Petition main instead of 2nd AN is worth it. I don't think so, but who knows! What do you guys think on this?

@Bahamut, are you by here to bring us your respected opinion?

@FFortune: you are wrong when you say that if Canadian raises, then EtW needs to be taken out from side. It is backwards. I anyway have survived withouth this strategy along the years...

Have a Nice Brewing!

Lemnear

07-04-2018, 11:03 AM

we can assume certain facts

Say that again ... but slowly.

One is the fact that CTherapy is a strong effect and we've played CT with very few peek effects to a good success in the past

I am quite sure the '13 transition from Silence + Gold lands to 4 Therapy + 2 Duress + Fetch/Dual manabase already included 4 Gitaxian Probes. It's true that there were 2 Cabal Therapy in the SB back then to side in against creature decks, but those came in during postboard games when you already knew against what you play.

Our current problem is that game 1 without Probe is a unsatifying guessing game with Therapy; One we can and imo should evade.

is an effect that can handle several copies of 1 single card or make opp. play in resp

It's currently more likely that you hit literally nothing with your blind Therapies. There is no point to cast Therapy for FoW just to see RB Reanimator, SnT, Storm & Co across, which are all suddenly more viable and likely to face with DRS gone.

That is why I think we should play one of these 2 effects - Silence OR CT.

I can't follow that conclusion. I rather discard 1 card for sure with Thoughtseize and combo turn 2, than gambling with T1 blindcall Therapy against unknown decks and try to justify that by MAYBE being able to discard more than 1 card. Silence is totally out of discussion. Not going to cripple the manabase for a card which has proven to be outdated 5 years ago. From first metagame reports i got yesterday, it seems that many people picked up stoneforge mystic and hatebears again.

14 lands along with 4 CM is in my opnion excesive for TES. I don't think we've played so many IMS in TES ever. I could see 14 and 3 CM or backwards but not those numbers. maybe I am wrong because ou play so many fetches - while I am not but you'll find likely land flood.

You need to set the number of lands in relation to the turns you plan to play in each match. We got slower; we will likely play more turns per game in average; ergo we will get to play more lands. You don't want to sit on 1 land + Petal during your turn 3 to get past Daze, Pierce or whatever will ve down the line from here.

I think 8 discard/silence effects is the proper number for TES right now. I was playing 7 - you guys were playing 6, so I understand you reach now 7 - not 8.

I played 7 for a while and now up to 8 as we went from being a 56 card deck to a 60 card one. I want to keep a certain relation.

Ee need threats that's why I proposed 2nd EtW or 2nd AN - I will definately start with 2nd AN.

If you want more business, take a look at preordain. I don't think that running two Ad Nauseam on top of an EtW will be kind to your flips. Same with Dark Petition. It especially is no justification to dismiss Thoughtseize from a lifeloss perspective.

My initial take will defintely be like old 2012 lists with 4 Silence 4 Duress (those lists used 3 Silence 2 Orims 3 Duress) and 2 AN and not Tendrils main.

You're running a 2012 deck while everyone else is in 2018. Doesn't sound convincing as a plan to me.

Pelikanudo

07-04-2018, 05:00 PM

Me: we can assume certain facts

Say that again ... but slowly.

ok

Me: One is the fact that CTherapy is a strong effect and we've played CT with very few peek effects to a good success in the past

I am quite sure the '13 transition from Silence + Gold lands to 4 Therapy + 2 Duress + Fetch/Dual manabase already included 4 Gitaxian Probes. It's true that there were 2 Cabal Therapy in the SB back then to side in against creature decks, but those came in during postboard games when you already knew against what you play.

Our current problem is that game 1 without Probe is a unsatifying guessing game with Therapy; One we can and imo should evade.

well not only agains creature decks it was there just because it was a good card also vs FoW. I don't know how you used to play CT, but I accepted completely a hand of CT withouth GP - I however agree that If I start to face S&T, Reanimator and Combo, CT (in adition to Chalice decks) is not the best idea, however this is something I don't know still and I can guarranty you that for the rest of decks: Canadian, Stoneblade, anykind of Control BUG I ould prefer CT not only in 1st game - also for postboard games.

Me: is an effect that can handle several copies of 1 single card or make opp. play in resp

It's currently more likely that you hit literally nothing with your blind Therapies. There is no point to cast Therapy for FoW just to see RB Reanimator, SnT, Storm & Co across, which are all suddenly more viable and likely to face with DRS gone.

As before I stated I just need to agree I even added Chalice decks to that equation and that is my fear... I am just talking about 2 CT not much rest 6 hit discard effects. but likely 4 TSeize 4 Duress is the safest take.

Me: That is why I think we should play one of these 2 effects - Silence OR CT.

I can't follow that conclusion. I rather discard 1 card for sure with Thoughtseize and combo turn 2, than gambling with T1 blindcall Therapy against unknown decks and try to justify that by MAYBE being able to discard more than 1 card. Silence is totally out of discussion. Not going to cripple the manabase for a card which has proven to be outdated 5 years ago. From first metagame reports i got yesterday, it seems that many people picked up stoneforge mystic and hatebears again.

I don't agree in here and you sould follow that conclusion, you win Control decks with overload on counters/fows/flusters with therapy most of the times, not by gambling in the firts turns - just by waiting and even tutoring to more therpies - at its simples once everybody has pondered and Brainstormed - just shooting a therapy win you the game on the spot - I prefer prior to shot a shitty duress. Silence is related not to the exact same effect but yes to the same rewarding result - 2/3 lnds, a petal and then Silence. Opp. can have fluster and Fow and will need to fire FoW.

you say Stoneforge decks will raise, I think the same -well- tell me that CT is not a bad card or at least better card than TSeize agains them.

Again, I am not sold on anything yet, but sure that if I face RB and UB Reanimator all the day I will not want no one CT main.

Me: 14 lands along with 4 CM is in my opnion excesive for TES. I don't think we've played so many IMS in TES ever. I could see 14 and 3 CM or backwards but not those numbers. maybe I am wrong because you play so many fetches - while I am not but you'll find likely land flood.

You need to set the number of lands in relation to the turns you plan to play in each match. We got slower; we will likely play more turns per game in average; ergo we will get to play more lands. You don't want to sit on 1 land + Petal during your turn 3 to get past Daze, Pierce or whatever will ve down the line from here.

I just expose proven facts from an era wherethere was no DRS no GP and moreless the same decks we - you and me are again naming. As I said the unique difference from that era is transition from Gold Lands To Fetch Lands and I DO understand that incrment from 12 to 13 with fetches and now from 13 with fetches to 14 with fetches and no probe. I just incrmented my count on 1 more land but no fetches. Maybe I adapt and change finally to a fetch base with 14 lands, don't know...

Me:I think 8 discard/silence effects is the proper number for TES right now. I was playing 7 - you guys were playing 6, so I understand you reach now 7 - not 8.

I played 7 for a while and now up to 8 as we went from being a 56 card deck to a 60 card one. I want to keep a certain relation.

well done, 7 always belonged to TES with GP.

Me: Ee need threats that's why I proposed 2nd EtW or 2nd AN - I will definately start with 2nd AN.

If you want more business, take a look at preordain. I don't think that running two Ad Nauseam on top of an EtW will be kind to your flips. Same with Dark Petition. It especially is no justification to dismiss Thoughtseize from a lifeloss perspective.

that is wrong. Preordain is not a Business. I don't know how many Preordains in base can be considered as a whole portion of a single business spell.... it costed me to understand this back in the 2012... the numbers that reigned in that era were: 8 tutors 2 AN 1 Tendrils. Next after GP, EtW was considered by itself a business, contrary to Tendrils, and then after adding the full 4 GP the 2nd AN left the deck. this fact is very curious. other curious aspect is that by that era only one persn named Abel Plating played GP TES list - the only one among other tops... and played 3 BW the guy.

Me: My initial take will defintely be like old 2012 lists with 4 Silence 4 Duress (those lists used 3 Silence 2 Orims 3 Duress) and 2 AN and not Tendrils main.

You're running a 2012 deck while everyone else is in 2018. Doesn't sound convincing as a plan to me.
.

and? I've been running a base with gemstones since I was the 1st person apart of bahmut proposing to run GP in base since that era along with CT and duress. and Until know you know what? I uniquely changed 1 Gemstone by a 5th fetch to my 60 - suggestion coming from FFortune. and I am a HatedStormPlayerThatWillWinYouAlways person by here by reputation... yes now winning with DU.

As said I maybe take that straightforward list with full of 4 copies, 14 lands full discard and I am fine with that but I want to evolve from my list which provided me great successes and I have to evolve therefore from a)12 manabase to 13 and from
b)3CM to 4th and from
c)7 disruption to 8 and well for me that would be my unique flex slot which prior to GP was...:
d)2nd AN.

Lemnear

07-05-2018, 02:31 AM

I however agree that If I start to face S&T, Reanimator and Combo, CT (in adition to Chalice decks) is not the best idea, however this is something I don't know still*

The "I dont know" is a thing we all share in regards to the current metagame. We dont know how decks look, how likely it is to face certain decks, etc.

These are real problems for slinging Therapy.

Control decks with overload on counters/fows/flusters with therapy*

I think if control starts to overload on reactive stuff like counters, we would just run Xantids from the board and call it a day. Therapy isn't solving problems if your opponent diversifies tools. They could run 4 FoW, 2 Pierce, 2 Fluster + more. You still have to gamble on naming the right counter. Its another problem Thoughtseize does not have.

I just expose proven facts from an era wherethere was no DRS no GP and moreless the same decks we - you and me are again naming

They are not the same decks. Delver, Swiftspear, Mentor, Thalia, Miracle, Angler, Eldrazi and much more all got released after GP. I'd go as far and say that 90% of theats you get confronted with are printings released after Probe. These ones are the benchmark for todays design, not necessarily the stuff decks ran in 2011.

Preordain is not a Business. I don't know how many Preordains in base can be considered as a whole portion of a single business spell.... it costed me to understand this back in the 2012... the numbers that reigned in that era were: 8 tutors 2 AN 1 Tendrils. Next after GP, EtW was considered by itself a business, contrary to Tendrils, and then after adding the full 4 GP the 2nd AN left the deck. this fact is very curious

I guess we simply disagree in what is considered business. As long as yoi can chain spells im order to get access to AN, ToA or EtW its business to me personally.

I think reducing the number of 4cc+ flips were obvious if you a) suddenly run cards costing life and b) Delver was printed to speed up the clock of tempo decks.

So i dont think it fits to refer to extremely old 2 AN decklists as potentially viable now, because the most agressive threat at that time was prolly nimble mongoose, which is a lot slower than Delver & friends these days, meaning that your lifepoints are significantly more pressured.

Pelikanudo

07-05-2018, 09:51 AM

They are not the same decks. Delver, Swiftspear, Mentor, Thalia, Miracle, Angler, Eldrazi and much more all got released after GP. I'd go as far and say that 90% of theats you get confronted with are printings released after Probe. These ones are the benchmark for todays design, not necessarily the stuff decks ran in 2011.

well man, look at this URL:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=7695

in here you'll see a Super Mr Bryant List and also a Delver deck. and note that by that era GP was released AND still not played - only Abel Plating was playing GP, and onbly after Timo won the GP TES players started to play GP. Surprisin!

I guess we simply disagree in what is considered business. As long as yoi can chain spells im order to get access to AN, ToA or EtW its business to me personally.

yes we disagree. Cantrips is one thing and Business is other.

I think reducing the number of 4cc+ flips were obvious if you a) suddenly run cards costing life and b) Delver was printed to speed up the clock of tempo decks.

So i dont think it fits to refer to extremely old 2 AN decklists as potentially viable now, because the most agressive threat at that time was prolly nimble mongoose, which is a lot slower than Delver & friends these days, meaning that your lifepoints are significantly more pressured.

NO, it wasn't! it was delver! look at the URL.

Edit: more examples:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=7572

Edit 2: I dare to say that Tendrils by itself is not a business unless you can chain spells and kill with it. EtW on the other hand it is.

Bahamuth

07-05-2018, 03:08 PM

How does that Crystal Vein/Mox Diamond list run Lemnear? It looks sweet. I'd think having a second Ad Nauseam in there would be really strong though. You can just cast it off a sol land and a ritual.

I don't think it makes sense to go back to Silences and Chants. As long as no one is running Spell Snares I don't see much of an upside.

Lemnear

07-05-2018, 03:38 PM

How does that Crystal Vein/Mox Diamond list run Lemnear? It looks sweet. I'd think having a second Ad Nauseam in there would be really strong though.

The sol land + Mox Diamond concept is something i tinker with for months and i have no experience with an iteration without Probe yet. In general, I am pleased with the concept of replacing RoF and having the option to choose between dropping lands in order to beat Daze & Stuff or throw lands under a Mox to speed up your game while fixing colors.

I would avoid a second AN or such if we run Thoughtseize and became a bit slower.

If you throw it together and slam or goldfish a few games, I'd gladly take your feedback and suggestions on that approach. I think a second pair of eyes on the project would be really helpful

Pelikanudo

07-05-2018, 04:05 PM

I don't think it makes sense to go back to Silences and Chants. As long as no one is running Spell Snares I don't see much of an upside.

why not?

they allow to use better DR, allow to force the opp to cast FoW if they have 2, handles snapcasters, makes you to interact with the stack, timewalks non U hatebears, they are better vs storm, doesn't cost you life, can fight through stifle/Fluster better than discard. Sure they have slops vs TSeize... I am maybe too optmistic and really want to play them...

EIT: What do you thinl on Days Undoing in the side?

Final Fortune

07-06-2018, 06:23 PM

wonderPreaux

07-07-2018, 03:25 AM

I'm on 14 land, 4 Mox and 4 Thoughseize and see no reason to use the 2nd Ad Nauseam - the math says ten threats is optimal

Just wondering, what is the math you're referencing here?

Final Fortune

07-07-2018, 05:02 AM

Just wondering, what is the math you're referencing here?

Odds of opening with a threat and the diminishing returns of adding threats, there are simulations in the Belcher thread.

Pelikanudo

07-07-2018, 07:55 AM

How you claim Swamp is bad in a deck playing 7+ discard is beyond me, right now I'm on 14 land, 4 Mox and 4 Thoughseize and see no reason to use the 2nd Ad Nauseam - the math says ten threats is optimal, when we cut Tendrils of Agony for Empty the Warrens the 2nd Ad Nauseam became completely unnecessary.

that is rigth, 10 threats are the optimal number, an yes - ToA is not a threat, but my reasoning is that EtW will be most of the time a threat in 1st games (NOTE: well not vs Reanimate or storm or Sneak - because we even lost CT which served to maintain the equilibrium vs those decks having EtW and targeting twice) BUT, for 2nd and 3rd games I'll likely take this out lot of times so I need the 10th threat still, also, some ponders will go out - reducing therefore the odds of drawing the threat even more.

In my opinion 14 lands 4 CM are too much and having a 2nd AN makes those CM less worse. you'll find that with 14 lands and not drawing BS you'll be land flooded. I apart explode CM also with DU from Side as lately and once discovered the potential of DU, I found that 4th CM make DU better.

You don't SB in 2 more Empty Warrens vs Stifle decks who are going to SB in Flusterstorms as well.

I personally don't, but it was a way lot time ago to battle those RUG decks and in deed that strategy was used recently to handle those Grixis. you can anyway make Stifle target your fetches while playing natural EtW. which is the thing likely to occur. EtW has been always a good strategy to handle Tempo in general.

Edit: Silence does NOTHING for us vs Reanimator, what do you think people are going to immediately play with DRS gone? Discard lets you play the control role in that match up, it is the only choice.

agree, but only vs Reanimator (well maybe some others...), also, my plan post side is Silence+Surgical which is not the best, but well something to see if works. Silence was good also to just play and force the opp to draw 2 FoW which was not bad also. but again, agree vs those Reanimate I prefer discard than Silence.

anyway, it maybe is not correct to play Silence, but I just want to see how it now develops... I played some MWS games and it was not as bad as it seem the Silence... avoiding some Snaps triggers, handling some stifles / double FoW from tempo...

Lemnear

07-07-2018, 10:09 AM

I don't think it makes much sense to argue about threat density if you board out Ponders for any postboard game a "lot of times". Boarding out cantrips is something we suggested when Chalice & Countertop were locking you out of many 1cc spells and these Ponders got replaced by ways to break out of these softlocks. They are not the decks default boarding slots.

You also need to decide, if you want to keep pointing at being flooded with lands OR at using Fetchlands to draw out Stifles protecting your EtW without getting choked out of initial mana. You can't use both at the same time

Final Fortune

07-07-2018, 10:57 AM

The second Ad Nauseam doesn't make Chrome Mox better, Chrome Mox makes the first Ad Nauseam better and the second Ad Nauseam makes the first Ad Nauseam worse. If you want to SB out Empty the Warrens and replace it with another threat, then you SB in the Tendrils of Agony AND The Past in Flames now that Deathrite Shaman has left.

4 Chrome Mox is fine, people were using the 4th Chrome Mox for the 3 Empty the Warrens plan regardless and it makes up for the damage you're going to take from Thoughtseize and the life loss you're going to suffer from being slower without Gitaxian Probe. 14 lands is not "too many" lands in Storm, I don't know if you've played ANT at all but 14 lands is generally considered "land light" there - double Chrome Mox and land flood are problems taken care of by cantrips and fetchlands and not by Gemstone Mines. What are you actually going to replace the 14th land and the 4th Chrome Mox with, a 2nd Ad Nauseam (which is bad) only fills one of the two open slots assuming you're already playing with 8 discard? Furthermore 14 lands means +1 SB card and the mana stability to SB out Chrome Mox(es).

Here is why Silence is bad A) No effect on Reanimator or Sneak&Show B) No effect on hatebears C) No effect on discard D) No one plays with Spellsnares or Counterpsells E) doesn't imprint for black mana F) can't be cast off Bayou

If you need a reference point,

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Dark Petition
1 Bribery (Reanimator)
1 Massacre (mandatory with the return of U/W Blade and increase of Miracles)
1 Consign/Oblivion (mandatory with the absence of Abrupt Decay and increase in Chalice of the Void)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Rending Volley (expect hatebears, lots and lots of hatebears)

wonderPreaux

07-08-2018, 02:21 AM

Odds of opening with a threat and the diminishing returns of adding threats, there are simulations in the Belcher thread.

Yeah, that's what came to mind, because I remember that 10 count coming up there before. I don't really think that's the sort of thing we'd want to be relying on for discussion, though. I recall reading that thread and there was talk of glitches and trying to program mulligans and so forth. Aside from the obvious statement that TES doesn't play like Belcher, I never recalled seeing a simulation that seemed definitively good for modeling the play of the decks. (If anyone from the Belcher thread wants to show me as incorrect, I will gladly retract my claim, though).

Also, I think there's some over-reliance that people place on these stat models that doesn't account for actual gameplay. For example: anyone who played Wraith + Probe + Manamorphose and then modeled their deck proportions under a "48 card" deck (or Probe + Wraith for "52 cards" etc). It's just not feasible in practice; your optimal percentage would include some number of games where you have to cycle 2+ times to find the business spell, but you wouldn't sensibly keep those hands in a real game because they would fizzle more often than not, so the optimal percentage in theory drops in practice.

I also don't think the 10-threat statement holds up in practice because the majority of players don't abide by it in practice. Look at this search of mtgtop8 for Belcher in 2018:
https://i.imgur.com/GrYxZNr.png
All 11-threat builds. And on the Storm boards, Emidln's black Belcher list had the strategic objective of threats that won the game right away -- and had 12 of them (4 Infernal, 4 Ad Nauseam, 4 Belcher. Iirc, the original build even had a 13th in Diabolic Intent). Now, the question is: what are the gameplay dynamics that would inform a statistical model in a way that would allow us to approach an optimal number of business spells for actual games?

With Regards to Threat Density in TES

Introducing the Statistical Model
So, over-reliance on stat models is not ideal, but doing some good number-crunching is important at times. It helps to understand why certain choices seem to be successful over time, it illustrates the impact of adjusting proportions, and it gives you a rough map of the inflection points that cause you to make the choices in actual gameplay that you're trying to influence during deck construction.

This is the chart I'll be using in reference throughout this post. I made it a while ago for land counts, but since we're speaking broadly about "threats" as opposed to individual cards, we can consider it in a similar manner.
https://i.imgur.com/uvc0r68.png

Now, I apologize profusely for how visually abhorrent this tool is -- aesthetics are not my strong-point, but let's go through how to use these tables that you're seeing. The very top row [0 <--> 27] is the count of whatever you're putting into your deck; lands, threats, any group of cards that you're willing to class as functionally identical is the [card type] we are considering. The two leftmost columns are coordinates showing the number of [card type] out of a number of cards drawn from a 60-card deck. You'll notice I have two tables here, the top table shows everything out of 7 cards (opening hand), while the lower table accounts for subsequent draw steps (hence, the second column increases in value as you go down, along with the first column). The percentages you see are the odds of that coordinate actually occurring given the number of [card type] in your deck.

Example: [card type] = Force of Will
There's a commonly cited statistic that an opponent's blind 7-card opener has Force of Will 40% of the time at most. Looking at the top table (opening hands), we can prove this out. Move along the top row to "4" and you can add up the occurrence percentages for 1, 2, 3, or 4 Force of Wills in the opponents hand. Overall, it's 33.63% + 5.93% + .38% + .01%, or 39.95%, which is where the rough 40% adage comes from. Make sense?

Now, the last thing to explain is why I color-coded the percentages. This is the anti-flood warning for whatever [card type] is (remember, I designed this for lands, and mana-flooding is a thing). As long as your percentage is green, the coordinate occurrence is going up and the coordinate below it for the greater number is going up by a smaller amount. So, looking at the top table, and topmost row, adding the 2nd to 5th copies of [card type] is having a greater marginal impact on increasing your chances of opening 1 of [card type] out of your opening 7 than it is on opening 2 of [card type] in your opening 7.

As you increase the proportion of [card type] in your 60-card deck, you are converting cards that weren't [card type], and can hit a diminishing return when it come to the exact proportion we're looking for -- hence the yellow and red color-coding. Yellow percentages mean that you're adding so many of [card type] that you're now increasing the odds of the next lower coordinate more than you are the one you're currently trying to optimize. Going back to the top-row example, the 6th to 8th copies of [card type] are adding more percentage points to the "2 of 7" coordinate than they are adding to the "1 of 7". The red colors are for adding so many of [card type] that your odds of the given coordinate are actually dropping because you've converted away so many cards that aren't [card type] and it's impacting your ability to have a small proportion of your opener being [card type]. So, to finish the example, once you're at 9+ copies of [card type], you should expect to be opening with it in multiples more often.

Now, given fetches and cantrips, there's some wiggle room here in terms of how accurately this model predicts lands. What I think is interesting is how some deck construction patterns match well with the tables. For example, table 2 (factoring draw steps) shows 15 as the yellow-limit for "2 of 7", which matches pretty well with how you tend to see ANT decks building their land counts. I think this is because the pattern that rose to the top was wanting to err on the side of caution in securing the 2nd land drop for the 2nd turn and enable the Brainstorm fetch or double cantrip or cantrip + discard, while not straying too far out in land count to avoid flooding. Going out further, to control decks, look at this list of mtgtop8 showing the front page of Miracle decks -- you'll see the averages is about 20 lands, which is the cautionary "yellow limit" for passively getting to 3 lands through draw steps:
https://i.imgur.com/GuyeFOt.png

Another historical example is how "8-land stompy" actually had 12 total forests counting Land Grants, which is the more aggressive "green limit" for an opener of exactly two lands when you look at the top table for opening hands (you'd want two lands for Winter Orb, but you definitely didn't want to flood out when you're just trying to Rancor people). Basically, you use the top table for planning openers, the bottom for multi-turn plans and you use the green or yellow limits depending on your aversion to seeing none of [card type] versus a lot of [card type].

Moving back to my original point, TES, we're going to define [card type] as threats, and look at the top table for opening hands, since we're not too far from Belcher's speed and the passive drawing and deployment of the second table makes more sense for lands than it does for threats. I originally talked about informing the statistical model with gameplay dynamics, so now that I've shown the model I use, lets talk about the dynamics.

Business Spell Dynamics - The Intolerable Proportion Vs. The Inoperable Proportion
I mentioned above how you can take an "aggressive" or "cautious" approach to achieving a certain proportion of a card in your opener, like the conservative approach to making sure you can passively lay down lands versus the aggressive approach to having just enough lands to facilitate an aggressive opener into a combo. This is because your hands are going to have a bell curve of actual outcomes that extend from the average in both directions, so if you set your deck proportion to deliver the desired outcome on average, you'll get a spread of hands that miss the mark by having too few of something as often as you would too much of something.

However, you basically can't play a hand with no lands, for example, whereas a hand with a land too many can be salvaged. In a similar fashion, you'd have to really scrutinize a hand of TES that has no business spells, whereas a hand that has a Wish/Tutor more than you'd like can be fixed up by committing to a Chrome Mox or Brainstorm (and that's not even considering the flexibility of some business spells -- more on that later). This is the difference between "inoperable" and "intolerable"; the hand with no threats or ways to find them just can't be kept, it doesn't operate as the deck intends to. By contrast, if you have an awkward hand of 3 Wishes/Tutors or something like that, you can at least evaluate if you want to try it and if you can make it work, if you can tolerate that sort of low-quality hand.

This dynamic can be seen in both Belcher and TES. If you open Wish + EtW + mana, the second business spell could be thought of as a "virtual mulligan", but I'd venture to say that's better than the literal mulligan of seeing no business spells. Your mulligan to six might force you to mulligan again, and you can at least imprint to Chrome Mox in the scenario of the Wish + EtW hand. This is why, given the small time scale this deck aims to operate on, I'd think you'd want to push towards the right end of the aggressive "green percentages", because a failure to find business spells is inoperable, whereas the hand of a couple of business spells is only occasionally intolerable. Now, "tolerable" is pretty subjective, and this is where we have to zoom in on what particular cards make up our broad card type of "threats". Depending on what the cards actually need to do, business spells are subject to scalability and uniqueness dynamics.

Business Spell Dynamics - Uniqueness and Scalability
While we can talk in broad strategic terms about "threats" or "bombs" in the context of combo versus control, the actual text on our individual cards does inform the amount of business that we end up running when it comes to deck construction. The two topics in play here are "Uniqueness", the degree to which the effect we're trying to access is spread across cards, and "Scalability", the degree to which the cards we're playing maintain utility in multiples.

A very unique threat limits your choices as a deckbuilder, because your choices are fixed at "1-4" of something. Take High Tide, for example: nothing else does what High Tide does; it's not a matter of 4 being the optimal number, it's the reality of there not being functional duplicates of High Tide. To bring it back to Belcher, it may be that they want more than 11 threats, but being basically mono-red means there's little else they can actually run unless they broaden out their threat suite to include less directly effective cards like Reforge the Soul or Recross the Paths. Directly impactful combo bombs are relatively unique in a mono-color shell, which means a slower, broader-colored deck can be hindered less by this concept. There's not too much to discuss here, but is necessary to keep in mind that the prevailingly successful proportion of a threat (or anything else, really) in a deck may just be by necessity and not mathematical optimization.

Scalability, on the other hand is something you can look at in depth - it's the real, in-game manner in which your cards hold their value when you find yourself having multiples of them. Cards like Rain of Filth and Ad Nauseam, for example, scale quite poorly, they draw from the same resource and diminish each other. Cards like Rite of Flame, by design, scale nicely by multiplying their effectiveness. Scalability extends beyond the text box, though, since your cards don't exist in a vacuum. Chrome Mox and Brainstorm give your cards scalability by giving you something else to do with your threat when you have a more useful one to use already. Burning Wish, and especially Infernal Tutor, also have scalability by contributing to the combo turn by finding protection or, in the special case of Tutor, netting you mana by replicating mana effects like Rite or LED; they didn't stop being useful, they just became useful in a different way. Scalability is an important consideration when you're evaluating how many of these threats to run, because the better the threats scale, the less "intolerable" a glut of them are, so you can skew towards a greater number of them to avoid the "inoperable" state of having none of them. This means fewer no-business mulligans, fewer hands when you have to cantrip for threats, more hands where you can out-speed the hate bears and challenge counter spells. I think the ability of Infernal Tutor to generate mana means the threats in TES are way more scalable than Belcher, and I'd err on a more threat-dense build for that reason.

The Optimal Threat Density for TES
Given the play patterns of TES, I think we'd actually like something closer to 12 threats, the aggressive end of the 2:7 opener proportion (Belcher may as well, but it would require more scrutiny). Given Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, and Chrome Mox, I think TES suffers a lot less than Belcher does when we open beyond one threat in the opener, and thus we'd rather do that than open none and have to rely on cantrips or mulliganing. I also can't understate the relevance of our deck having more than 1 land that untaps, so we can go off multiple times more easily, and more readily test opponents with threats or apply them in alternative uses as is the case with Tutor/Wish. Moreover, we're not as fast as Belcher, we have to contend with Thoughtseize, run things into Pierce, etc -- so we're more often in need of a subsequent/spare business spell. I think the main thing holding back TES from having more business spells isn't that we wouldn't want them, it's that the other options aren't viable.

Consider the idea of a functional reprint of Infernal Tutor, an Infernal Two-tor, if you will. Would you really not consider slotting those into the open slots we're now all considering? On the TES site, there's tentative lists with 14 lands or even Preordain. I'd gladly go up to 12 total threats instead of those options, probably something like this, +/- a card or two depending on my knowledge of the metagame:

12 Land

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Infernal Two-tor
3 Burning Wish
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Two-tor
10 Sideboard Cards

This is like the Vitruvian Man of TES decks, all proportioned neatly to relatively deliver a good setup for a second turn kill. The problem is that we just don't have such a neat option of adding to threat density that well, so we work to patch up other areas of concern like land count (where 14 is the "green limit" on the 3:9 draw step table in my chart; very sensible for a speculative tempo opponent, but could present issues when we try to race other decks), or try to patch things up with cantrips to substitute business and give us an opportunity to course-correct hands. The TL;DR to this is that I don't think Pelikanudo is wrong to look for extra business, I'm pretty sure all our options are just garbage, though. 2nd Ad Nauseam is close, but like Lemnear pointed out, it's relatively outdated technology when the tempo decks are hitting harder and are more optimized. Maindeck Tendrils or 2nd EtW are probably the next consideration, to combat Tempo/control decks to a certain extent, but they can be bad draws against other combo decks. Beyond that, we have all sorts of stuff that just doesn't belong in the main deck like Dark Petition, Grim Tutor, or Death Wish.

Preordain is an interesting consideration, as far as substituting business goes, my worry is that it detracts too much from comboing off quickly, which could cost our typical characteristic advantage against hate permanents, Hymns etc. Basic Island is a lot harder to omit as the cantrip density increases, but you also need to consider the fetch land proportions for Tarn/Mire when you start wanting Island more against Tempo which can preclude you from green spells in the 75, not even factoring the issue of Basic Island basically being Darksteel Citadel from the perspective of the combo turn. One thing I liked in Bryant's hypothetical lists is the idea of Past in Flames main deck. I think, aside from the irksome prospect of opening Chrome Mox + PiF, that could be worth exploring, as PiF can be a life-independent win against tempo, help us refuel against discard decks, etc. I think I'd still want some sort of Main-Deck win-con, though, compared to the list on the website. The dream would be somehow finding room for main-deck Tendrils, EtW, and PiF, but I just don't think you can fit all of that and try to fit Cabal Ritual for PiF and Chrome Mox for Ad Nauseam.

Final Fortune

07-08-2018, 07:30 PM

wonderPreaux

07-08-2018, 08:13 PM

That's one hell of a post, if you're looking to test the 12 threats theory you should try 3 MD Empty the Warrens over the Infernal Tutor "reprint." I did that awhile ago, and generally had redundant cards in hand. Personally I haven't seen any problems with 10 threats so far and prefer building up a manabase. The thing with TES is that it's not just a gold fish deck like Belcher, you've got the stamina to go long where you'll want to hit land drops and will eventualy draw a threat.

You're kinda striking at the issue I was getting at with the idea of multiple EtW; I don't think the problem is that 12 threats is too many, it's that we have to play worse cards to get to 12 so our 11/12th cards are basically nonviable. Like, stacking up on EtW or Ad Nauseam is going to be pretty bad in some matchups and awkward to draw in some cases, and we're probably never getting another tutor effect that we could slot into the deck. The best current example of the thing I'm trying to illustrate is probably SI, where they play something like 15 bombs and can just keep untapping and throwing them at the opponent, the tradeoff there is that draw-4s are high variance and the deck is pretty fragile. Maybe NLS is the best overall example, actually, since that deck did play something like a dozen tutor/threat effects, and Mystical Tutor is the epitome of "scalable" business since it could find anything in the deck.

Like I mentioned towards the end of my prior post, I agree the manabase is definitely the next area to look at in terms of trying to make the deck more robust. I just think it's important to clarify that Pelikuando's idea of adding more business to the deck isn't indefensible, it's just not something that we can do right now, as far as my knowledge of the card pool goes.

Grapeshot

07-10-2018, 12:26 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-anthony-laverde-07-10-18/

Pelikanudo

07-15-2018, 10:45 AM

Hi guys, I just wanted to share my 1st experience post GP ban this weekend in a couple of local tournaments.

the 1st torunament we went a friend of mine with TES and me - we took moreless the same base and some diff. in side. We opted to go with a Silence 2012 List. the list was like this URL but:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=7695&iddeck=55987

-3 Orim's Chant = +2 Silence +1 Duress.

- as Edison said, "I did not fail, I only discovered 999 ways of not making a light bulb".
Well we both were not very conviced about Silence, but we really wanted to enjoy playing Silence again!, after the tournament he faced some Storm which of course won because of Silence and Sadistic Sacrament, but in deed T.Seize would have been better - well maybe not better - just more polivalent which is what we need right now. but still not sure if instead of duress!

my match ups were:

1) Agro hatebears, well I won 1st game easily and prior to the tournament I really had some lack of strategy vs these decks as I always used to win, so I didn't bother in any strategy...
2nd game he was just landed Thalia and teeg and even I was able to tutor for 2nd CoV and started to combo he was hidding a Mindbreak Trap. the 3rd game was both curious and determinant in just discarding 100% the idea of Silence - I obviously kept a hand with Silence and a 3rd turn combo, and I just silence him on upkeep, then when starting to combo he just Mindbreaktrap me again - he played only 2 MBT so just near 20% of drawing the card but tons of 2 CMC haterbears so it was the proper decission, however the error was to not to play Tseize instead. (lost 1-2) will never happen again.

2) Canadian - well at least by here Canadian is beeing playing everywere I think looots of players were happy to land those nimbles and stifle/wateland again. I had some illusion about Silence in here as it was supposed to be good but even I lost 0-2 it was because I was not able to do nothing - stifled or wastelanded. and sure Silence was shit as not even allowed to print on B, I was able to cast in one game AN which was great but I was at low life total. I noted the guy played 2 Snares (lost 1-2)

3) Stoneblade, won, I saw 1 canonist but nothing relevant - was an easy match up even with flusters, silence in here helped me, but don0t think it would have been a difference with TSeize.

4) Death shadow, won, the guy played T.Seizes and dazes an wastelands, etc BUT no stifles, and was easy to kill him with low life total self-inflicted.

5) candadian, this was funny, I just settled both games on 1 Bloodstained and well after 1 game I asked to show me his hand - he had 3 stifles... CM were dazed, LED countered (lost 1-2)

Conclusions:

- looking at next build version - I just took 4 full GP and from 12 lands I needed to go up to 14 as the meta seemed to contain wastelands everywhere
- Silence is good, but not polivalent enough, I feel that TSeize is a must right now I even think is much better than Duress, I could even see Duress going out and playing both Silence and TSeize - but not by the moment.
- didn't draw any conclusion on 2nd AN - likely vs Canadian would have been better the 4th land
- as talked to my friend it was not absolytly clear Silence belonged to an old era - (we don't discard anyway to play it again BUT not instead of TSeize) - but we wanted TSeize
- don't know what to think on DR / DU we really are not playing these cards too much lately,
- even my friend faced lots of storm, no UB reanimator or S&S appeared, but canadian is now a thing - then I started to evaluate things to change and the 14th land is now a must, but didn't want to play 14 lands 4 CM and soo many fetches... we also were stifled too much times.

Well, after some thoutghs I wanted then to start to develop a new design but evolved from my build, for 2nd time in my life I tested the fetch list and for 1st time I tested Island, I drew island one time and it is the worst card I can have in the deck - I neither want to fetch island under any circumstance, also fetches is not the thing I want to be settled on as it is more damage and is stifle target. So after some thoutghs and testing I made the following build to face the 2nd torunament post GP probe - there is no much maths on this - just a logic evolution from my before build.

- if I take 4 GP then I need to add 14 lands - 13 were not enough last torunament (2 less slots)
- not sure if to play 8 discard or 1 preordin instead - I just opted for a straighforward 8 disruption shell
- the flex slot was then 4th CM - as much as I hate to play 14 lands 4 CM well, I think it could be decent and it was going to be the card I will side out most of the time, other options were:
3 CM and 7 discards and 2 preordain, but well preordain? who plays preordain in TES, maybe 2nd AN instead of 8th discard? 2nd AN was not the card I wanted to draw vs canadian neither. what was sure is that if I played 2nd AN I needed to leave 4CM, but after including 4 TSeize 2nd AN started to loose sense...
- 10 threats is what I used to played 5 years ago - so lets see how the same numbers it develops without GP.

So the list I took to the next torunament was:

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Gemstones Mire

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Dark Petition
1 Bribery - been there as always.
2 CoV
1 Spree
2 ET
2 SE
1 DU
1 CT.

NOTES:
- I just feared a lot stifle and from the begining - I used to win canadian by playing 1 or 2 lands and develop from here. 1 was more than enough!
- the 13th land was 4th gemstones - before I was playing 3 - I find gemstones just wonderfull - sure wasteland target it but I win games just with 1 gesmtone in play
- the 14th land was Badlands which allows me to play all cards in the deck except cantrips- didn't wanted 6th fetch and maybe 3rd USea was an option. I really don't know if I want to swamp - maybe it is the good call, but then I likely should put up the number of fetches to 8 and now with only 5 fetches and I don't think it worths.
- I was tempted to take out 4th CM and 8 discard by 2 preordains, but wanted to play something straighforward and see if it works, next adjust.

the 2nd tournament:
well it was stoneforge, sneak, storm and hatebears BWG with discard, again still not Reanimate and this time not canadian.
I just won 4-0 easily.

Final conclusions:
- GP was in deed a card I missed and really was not aware of the great card it in deed is, maybe I have to change to fetch->swamp->discard (even a diff strategy!), GP was such a great tempo card and allowed to develop my strategy based on already known statistics withouth no investment on rerources... snif.
- I want TSeize all days of the week, as said I could take out duress and return to a build with Silence - not lkely - but not withouth TSeize, however, TSeize is not the best card against canadian which is raising - it may have sense to play the multi EtW strategy as in old eras.
- I want somehow CT and it is there in the side, I've been thinking in taking the 4th duress and place in there just 1 CT - we will have the same numbers as before regarding peek effects, but I am not unconfortable with 4th duress.
- I don't know what to think on SE, I don't even want them vs storm and likely prefer more discard in the form of CT/IoK, so not sure
- I am happy with this manabase and really never played so many lands in any TES build, but not conviced on the 4th CM still...
- CoV, ET and bribery were key cards in side, don't know still if DP is a good comeback or if to increment discard instead of SE which does just nothing most of the times.
- don't know still what to think on 4th CM / 8th discard, but well from these last changes things went well, but likely want something pore polivalent than SE, maybe a sadistic sacrament or discard as stated, don't know.
- still don't see the need of green and then AD in side, but likely this is because I didn't face any mirales yet, but maybe just more discard will solve this.
- I saw Rending volley as a card to have in mind, but I just don't want to take CoV as it is infetiley more polivalent, I will fire discard untill I can bounce hatebear confidently against control and next win.

well, nice to see I am back again with TES, but I'll need to see what I can do vs those canadian- but there is nothing new to dvelop in deed and likely that 14th land will make the diff. between winning and loosing, if not I'll see if more EtW or discard or pyros or even carpet could help.

well it seems that we are all again sync about TES build - still rebel and prefer those gemstones!

thnaks for reading!

Final Fortune

07-15-2018, 11:57 AM

Scott

07-15-2018, 08:50 PM

Bryant had an interview at SCG Worcester (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/StarCityGamescom_Team_Open/2018-07-14_legacy_Worcester_MA_US/1/) a little while ago, because he and his team just won the Team Open. I believe he went 11-3-ID and his team went 12-2-ID, and then they finished 13-2-1 after the top 8. He played this list:

// Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
4 Thoughtseize

// Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// Instants
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual

// Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony

Polski_

07-18-2018, 12:03 AM

With the shakeup of the banning Temur Delver is back! And we need to be prepared. Here is my matchup breakdown

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-temur-delver/

- Alex Poling

Pelikanudo

07-19-2018, 02:58 PM

You either play into Stifle or you play into Wasteland with Fetchlands or Gemstone Mines, the difference is not every deck plays Stifle, the shuffle effects are better with cantrips and sitting on Swamp with 8 discard just makes more sense.

Silence was probably bad even when we thought it was good, splashing another colour for a disruption card that isn't strictly necessary is a dubious choice. I even debate Green, Bayou and Abrupt Decay vs Miracles because with 8 discard the odds are their 3 Counterbalance never see the board, so bounce and another Underground Sea are probably best.

Regardless you `play more fetches or not - you play among 14 lands just 1 Swamp (1 unique basic land for discard and DR) - do yo really think having 1 solitary Swamp, will help you combating Wastelands?I've always preferred to just cantrip and beeing destroyed - at its simples the rule: "If I have 2 Lands then dicard If I have 1 then Cantrip" has been great for me during eras... sometimes Wasteland is even good vs us even giving us tempo and allowing us to cantrip... we only need polivalent lands and that0s been one of my most accepted faacts in TES.. I don't conceive to be playing Island of course - and as WPreux I would love to be playing 12 super polivalent cards. I really dont care B2B or BMoon either. I've always thouth that Leaving Silence didn't mean to leave such a great land as Gemstone... regrding Stifle well ths card in deed f*** us the tempo very nicely and sure there are more decks with wasteald but uniquely those playing wasteland AND Stifle is where I am worried about Stifle - the rest only playing wastealnd just doesn't mind to me- as said as ex. vs DT I prefer even to take my land if I have pondered and have enough lands in hand and missing the threat or LED.

well those are some of my feelings FFortune... I just wrote and wrote but there are just incorrect or right maths in my mind regarding TES and its (his?) context...

@Bryant winning the Open:

Congratulations dude! nice list in deed. good call about 2nd EtW - 11 Threats 4CM 7Discard and of course 14Lands for 1st games. I'll hate that Island until eternity but ok. Side is great also - very typical with those AD and Xantids/Bouncers - but good call on excluding those SE! I would not play personally EtW plan, but recognize that had to be key to survive among those RUGs

@wPreaux: Nice read! - we in deed should be playing 12 Threats but with my few testing - 10Threats8Cantrip are not beeing bad - sure I am more firghtned of siding out Ponders now... and I would prefer a eleventh...

@Guys:

- As said, I don't know if moving for 1 CT instead 1 Duress main as it seems that we have 7 peek effects, opinions?
- SE doens't seem to me relevant, I don't know if to play a couple of pyros or fluster or carpet - something to interact on the stack.
- now the deck is good but - also the EtW strategy is good s RUG - what I mean is that I prefer others ways of winning this match up - now typical lists run 1-2 Snares plus fluster and lot of shit.
- Defnetly at some point when 1st time played since GP ban, we loved Silences and I want to make the next move as follows. which also may fail of coruse!:
o 4TSeize,4 Silence, 13OldSilenceBase + 1 badlands and as usual - 1EtW 1AN. I'd likely play then overload of Duresses in side. Mybe 3Silence 1 Duress...
o Nxt I can play some carpet or some decay withouth hurting he manabase. Sorry but I see the things backwards. I've thinking about 3rd CoB instead of badlands. Opinions on this?

Grapeshot

07-20-2018, 12:12 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/looking-glass-dragon-stompy-zac-turgeon/

Vivarus

07-23-2018, 07:58 AM

Hey guys, I've got my first official article up!

If you're interested in more math in the deck, let me know in the comments!

http://theepicstorm.com/cantrip-calculations/

Bryant Cook

07-25-2018, 09:06 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/matchup-mulligan-rug-delver/

GeneralSmallChild

07-27-2018, 02:44 PM

Newest Reading the Ropes is up! This week we talk about Discard spells. Give it a read and let me know what you think.

http://theepicstorm.com/reading-the-ropes-using-discard-spells/

whiskeyhughes

07-30-2018, 12:18 AM

This month's "Infernal Tutoring" article is now live, featuring special guest Brandon Osborne (CONTROL4DAZE)! Check it out, and let me know what plays you would have made in our three latest scenarios.

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-19/

wonderPreaux

08-02-2018, 02:12 AM

https://i.imgur.com/d3mfvgX.jpg?1

Queued into a High Tide player and had to pull out the Grapeshot. Game 1, I played an early Empty the Warrens that got Flusterstorm'd, and later on Ad Nauseam'd on turn ~7 into a Tendrils of Agony kill. Game 2 I decided to go all-in against my opponent's mull to 5... that unfortunately contained Force of Will. I ended up dying to Brain Freeze. Game 3 I got the Ad Nauseam through, and the opponent took a chance on Extracting Dark Ritual instead of Lotus Petal, which let me pretty comfortably go off and check off the Grapeshot. I think this is the "Stormiest" match you can get, barring Crow Storm in Commander or throwbacks to TSP/Lorwyn combo or something.

Grapeshot

08-14-2018, 12:06 AM

http://theepicstorm.com/through-the-looking-glass-rug-delver-with-eric-vergo/

Polski_

08-23-2018, 09:18 AM

Another matchup breakdown vs 4c Loam!

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-4c-loam/

Vivarus

08-27-2018, 10:34 AM

Hey guys!

As promised, I've got my first infernal tutoring up! It's got a bit of a different flavor for its scenarios so be sure to check it out!

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-20/

whiskeyhughes

08-29-2018, 06:28 AM

Hello Everyone!

My new article at TheEpicStorm is officially live! This month, I share some of the strategies that I have been practicing, to build great Storm habits in paper. Let me know what you think, and if you have any other tips, feel free to share them!

https://theepicstorm.com/playing-in-paper/

wonderPreaux

08-31-2018, 08:27 PM

Hi everyone,

Recently, Bryant posted a run of a couple leagues playing a four color build with 3 red duals for Pulverize, you can check it out here: https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-leagues-stream-bryant-cook-08-25-18/

Coincidentally, I had been testing a similar build, but I was eschewing SB bounce spells to make room for Surgical Extractions:
https://i.imgur.com/k8pv2km.jpg?1

For those interested, this was my final record, with one or two games/matches that I punted due to all my testing taking place at 10 at night or later:
Testing Record: TES - 1.3
Deck Type : Match Record : Game Record
Total : 19-11 : 46-31
Death & Taxes : 2-1 : 5-4
TNT : 0-1 : 0-2
Miracles : 2-0 : 4-0
Eldrazi : 1-2 : 3-5
Death’s Shadow : 3-1 : 7-3
BUG Control : 1-0 : 2-1
Grixis Control : 1-2 : 4-5
Tin Fins : 1-0 : 2-1
BR Reanimator : 0-1 : 1-2
ANT : 2-0 : 4-1
Elves : 1-0 : 2-1
4C Loam : 0-1 : 0-2
Fauna Shaman : 1-0 : 2-0
Grixis Delver : 1-0 : 2-0
Lands : 0-1 : 1-2
Moon Stompy : 1-0 : 2-0
Sneak & Show : 1-0 : 2-0
Landstill : 0-1 : 1-2
UW Spirits : 1-0 : 2-0

I'm back on Echoing Truths now, mainly because Surgical just wasn't as good as I thought it would be. Even bumping into a couple Griselbrand decks, ANT, and SCM decks where I would get to try all the uses of Surgical. The card is pretty medium, and so is Truth, but Truth comes up more often and solves more blind spots for the deck overall. Also, I never ended up needing a 2nd Underground Sea, so my mana base matches Bryant's now at 8 fetches, 5 Duals, 1 Basic.

https://i.imgur.com/dqNOAhl.jpg

The card I stuck with, though, and the card that I think deserves some attention, is Void Snare. It can be sided in as a passable "less-than-Chain-of-Vapor" for the matchups where you have a better Wish target overall (read: Massacre/Pulverize) while also filling in the Grapeshot-esque role of giving you that extra couple of percentages as a Wishable bounce spell. A great example of this is against some of the rogue decks on my testing, where I was able to solve unexpected problems like Leyline of Sanctity or Arcane Laboratory. Void Snare also solves Teeg as well, which Massacre cannot.

Void Snare also has some great functionality by being a Wish target in matches where you wouldn't side in bounce normally. For example, I've had UBr(x) opponents nail me with Null Rod or Leovold, and managed to Wish my way out of those problems. Further, if the loss of Grapeshot to snipe Shadow players bothered you looking at Bryant's list, I invite you to step into the world of fun that is bouncing Gurmag Anglers and Shadows to win the race with Goblins. Miserable as it sounds, you can also do some edge-case plays like bounce and discard Ratchet Bombs to clear the way for Empty the Warrens (note: yes, Hull Breach would probably be better in the case of solving played down token-clearers as well as hitting Counterbalance, but I cannot stress enough the utility of Void Snare bouncing creatures and costing only one mana)

What I really liked about this build of Storm is that it has such a great range of threats and responses. Pulverize and Massacre absolutely shut out opponents, the green spells are really great against UW decks, the "waves" of EtW wear down URx decks, and I am now a complete believer in 4 Chrome Mox + Basic Swamp to push out all sorts of turn 2 combo kills. The deck seems really strong, and Void Snare was really good to have, definitely worth a look in one of the bounce slots.

Grapeshot

09-17-2018, 12:02 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/through-the-looking-glass-death-shadow-with-ben-friedman/

Polski_

09-19-2018, 07:22 AM

Another TES Matchup Battles: Esper Stoneblade

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-esper-stoneblade/

Vivarus

09-24-2018, 08:27 AM

Hey Everyone, I've got my newest article looking at every type of removal TES plays!

https://theepicstorm.com/card-considerations-removal/

Final Fortune

09-24-2018, 11:10 AM

Hey Everyone, I've got my newest article looking at every type of removal TES plays!

https://theepicstorm.com/card-considerations-removal/

You forgot to list Pulverize in your SB, I found your remarks regarding Void Snare and Consign/Oblivion frankly pedantic: the purpose of those cards is to be cast from the SB and not SBed in, where they answer a SB Leyline of Sanctity in matchups where you can't just SB in Echoing Truths because of their counter spells (Show&Tell) or MD Chalice of the Void (Stompy). Even if the Chalice of the Void angle is being dealt with by Pulverize, Leyline of Sanctity is still a very real thing.

whiskeyhughes

09-26-2018, 12:38 AM

This month's "Infernal Tutoring" article is now live, featuring special guest Lucas Esper Berthoud(LEGACYMASTER)! Check it out, and let me know what plays you would have made in our three latest scenarios.

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-21/

Grapeshot

09-30-2018, 10:15 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-anthony-laverde-09-29-18/

Pelikanudo

09-30-2018, 03:56 PM

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-anthony-laverde-09-29-18/

the hell... why you play so many ShitLands...
I just saw a little of this video, but well you deserve loosing playing badlands and next drawing swamp and making those cantrips so useless...

wonderPreaux

09-30-2018, 09:14 PM

the hell... why you play so many ShitLands...
I just saw a little of this video, but well you deserve loosing playing badlands and next drawing swamp and making those cantrips so useless...

Calm down, it's clearly a pick-your-poison type of scenario. The 1st Volc and Badlands are easily defensible choices, but then you want a third mountain for Pulverize, so you have to choose between enabling your 8 cantrips, or your 8 discard spells + 4 Dark Rituals.

For me, I picked 2 Volcs because I had a lot of black sources as-is (I play Swamp + Bayou currently, no basic Island. My next build will have no green, so I'll likely be on a 2nd Badlands over Bayou, with a fetch replacing the 2nd Volc.). In the last 60 matches I played with my lists, I can think of at least 5 times I had an awkward dearth of black mana because I was on 2 Volcs, in much the same way you might get stuck on cantrips with double Badlands. Sometimes you get the bad beats, it happens.

Grapeshot

10-01-2018, 12:20 PM

the hell... why you play so many ShitLands...
I just saw a little of this video, but well you deserve loosing playing badlands and next drawing swamp and making those cantrips so useless...

Did you have this same opinion when that second Badlands was a main board Bayou instead? It's the 14th land, we previously played 13 lands. Sometimes you lose to bad variance, I don't really see where you're going with this, but it's kind of a silly non-argument if you ask me. Having the second Underground Sea over the second Badlands is very marginal, and we need to support Pulverize.

Final Fortune

10-01-2018, 02:36 PM

Did you have this same opinion when that second Badlands was a main board Bayou instead? It's the 14th land, we previously played 13 lands. Sometimes you lose to bad variance, I don't really see where you're going with this, but it's kind of a silly non-argument if you ask me. Having the second Underground Sea over the second Badlands is very marginal, and we need to support Pulverize.

Yes, yes we did, neither of us have ever stayed on a list with Island and Badlands and reducing the number of fetchlands for Swamp, the number of duallands and the number of blue producing lands is not marginal at all. Personally I never played with Badlands until I cut Bayou, and I agree 2 Badlands is completely unnecessary so don't make it out as if there are no other dissenting opinions here or that your choices aren't questionable. Even if you do cut Bayou, playing Badlands for Pulverize is still debatable considering Wasteland is a thing and you could wish for Consign/Oblivion instead.

Pulverize is alright, but it isn't a reason to seriously contort the manabase beyond 2 Volc/1 Bad.

Grapeshot

10-01-2018, 02:52 PM

Yes, yes we did, neither of us have ever stayed on a list with Island and Badlands and reducing the number of fetchlands for Swamp, the number of duallands and the number of blue producing lands is not marginal at all. Personally I never played with Badlands until I cut Bayou, and I agree 2 Badlands is completely unnecessary so don't make it out as if there are no other dissenting opinions here or that your choices aren't questionable. Even if you do cut Bayou, playing Badlands for Pulverize is still debatable considering Wasteland is a thing and you could wish for Consign/Oblivion instead.

Pulverize is alright, but it isn't a reason to seriously contort the manabase beyond 2 Volc/1 Bad.

How often do you play? Both Bryant and I started with 2 Underground Seas after the banning, decided having the second Sea didn't really matter, with 8 fetch lands you hardly get color screwed the way I did in that one game. Like I said, variance happens. And what do you mean reduce the number of fetch lands? Where?

Also, Wasteland is the reason you need a third red dual to support Pulverize. Consign//Oblivion isn't really good either.

Everyone on theepicstorm.com has been on 2 Badlands for a few weeks now, including myself and Bryant. Judging from the past almost 400 pages of this thread, it seems like you both just don't like to see deck changes. Then you see one game that was lost to variance on a mulligan, and you immediately claim it's wrong, seems good.

Asthereal

10-01-2018, 06:57 PM

StonedforgeMystic

10-01-2018, 07:36 PM

Double Badlands is a thing now?
What have we become... :eek:

No, seriously, I've been out of it for like two years.
What have we become?
Apparently, Probe is gone. (I'm not sad about that at all.)
But what the heck? Don't we just go back to the pre-Probe lists?

Or is Pulverize that good right now?

Badlands is the best land in the deck, and Pulverize is OP. Chalice on one and chalice on zero? Pulverize doesn’t care. Kill the the same turn you Wish for the removal spell. B r o k e n.

Grapeshot

10-01-2018, 07:42 PM

Double Badlands is a thing now?
What have we become... :eek:

No, seriously, I've been out of it for like two years.
What have we become?
Apparently, Probe is gone. (I'm not sad about that at all.)
But what the heck? Don't we just go back to the pre-Probe lists?

Or is Pulverize that good right now?

I don't get it, are you suggesting that we play old 2010 lists instead of lists that are relevant to the 2018 metagame?

Asthereal

10-02-2018, 08:45 AM

I don't get it, are you suggesting that we play old 2010 lists instead of lists that are relevant to the 2018 metagame?
Well, Bryant has been tuning this deck since way before that, and I'm sure he tried a number of Badlands before as well. But instead, he opted for a number of rainbow lands. In heavy prison metas we used to play all kinds of hate. Shattering Spree comes to mind, and later Meltdown. Echoing Truth also has always been an option. Pulverize is an interesting option, but it requires building your entire mana base around it, and that seems wrong when you have so many alternatives. Plus: it's not like the entire meta is Chalice/Thorn decks right now. We rarely played Pulverize back in the Dragon Stompy/White Prison era, so I don't see why it should be OP now.
As for Badlands: the argument that you don't want to play too many lands that cannot cast cantrips used to be king. I would expect that argument still stands at least to some extent.

The meta, as far as I can see right now, actually isn't all that different from 2010. There's Counterbalance control (without Top, but still dangerous), Stoneblade with blue, Death&Taxes/Hatebear.dec, some form of Tempo Threshold, Prison Stompy and a few combo variants. The most popular decks (and the decks that look like they score best) play cantrips and Force of Will, just like in 2010. So yeah, it looks like not that much has changed compared to 8 years ago. At least, to me it looks like that. I might be wrong though. I'm not saying everyone here is an idiot. It just looks weird when you come back after a few years and you suddenly see mana bases and sideboard cards that were available in '08 (when I started to play TES) but were discarded as bad back then, but are now called super important, even though all the same arguments from '08 are still valid.

StonedforgeMystic

10-02-2018, 12:48 PM

Well, Bryant has been tuning this deck since way before that, and I'm sure he tried a number of Badlands before as well. But instead, he opted for a number of rainbow lands. In heavy prison metas we used to play all kinds of hate. Shattering Spree comes to mind, and later Meltdown. Echoing Truth also has always been an option. Pulverize is an interesting option, but it requires building your entire mana base around it, and that seems wrong when you have so many alternatives. Plus: it's not like the entire meta is Chalice/Thorn decks right now. We rarely played Pulverize back in the Dragon Stomy/White Prison era, so I don't see why it should be OP now.
As for Badlands: the argument that you don't want to play too many lands that cannot cast cantrips used to be king. I would expect that argument still stands at least to some extent.

The meta, as far as I can see right now, actually isn't all that different from 2010. There's Counterbalance control (without Top, but still dangerous), Stoneblade with blue, Death&Taxes/Hatebear.dec, some form of Tempo Threshold, Prison Stompy and a few combo variants. The most popular decks (and the decks that look like they score best) play cantrips and Force of Will, just like in 2010. So yeah, it looks like not that much has changed compared to 8 years ago. At least, to me it looks like that. I might be wrong though. I'm not saying everyone here is an idiot. It just looks weird when you come back after a few years and you suddenly see mana bases and sideboard cards that were available in '08 (when I started to play TES) but were discarded as bad back then, but are now called super important, even though all the same arguments from '08 are still valid.

I feel you dude it definitely looks way different from the 2010 lists. On paper the list might look like it’s trying to support Pulverize but realistically it’s more that badlands is one of be best options for the 14th land. The gold lands made a lot of brainstorm locked situations come up that with a mana base more focused on fetch lands it lets us avoid that. The third red source is really good for past in flames lines and playing around wasteland too. I see where you’re coming from but if you gave the list some reps for a month or so I’m sure you’d see why it’s set up how it is. To be honest TES is basically a really streamlined Grixis Storm list and having access to our combo colors from badlands is a huge asset even without pulverize. As far as pulverize goes, the card in testing is a blow out. And I feel like it’s worth mentioning how strong it is that we can fetch it and cast it the same turn to play under thought knot seer and wasteland. Idk, put it together on Mtgo and give it a try. The list feels really good!

Asthereal

10-03-2018, 08:43 AM

I feel you dude it definitely looks way different from the 2010 lists. On paper the list might look like it’s trying to support Pulverize but realistically it’s more that badlands is one of be best options for the 14th land. The gold lands made a lot of brainstorm locked situations come up that with a mana base more focused on fetch lands it lets us avoid that. The third red source is really good for past in flames lines and playing around wasteland too. I see where you’re coming from but if you gave the list some reps for a month or so I’m sure you’d see why it’s set up how it is. To be honest TES is basically a really streamlined Grixis Storm list and having access to our combo colors from badlands is a huge asset even without pulverize. As far as pulverize goes, the card in testing is a blow out. And I feel like it’s worth mentioning how strong it is that we can fetch it and cast it the same turn to play under thought knot seer and wasteland. Idk, put it together on Mtgo and give it a try. The list feels really good!
I might just do that. I don't have an MTGO collection, but I think I have everything in paper, so I'll goldfish it a bit. See how it rolls.
And I can always be a stubborn bastard and swap the second Badlands for a second Volcanic, in order to have better chances to cast my cantrips.

Though I have to admit it's really tempting to put together the old pre-Probe ANT list with 2x AdN and 19 accell. That list was so smooth and easy to play (which helps a ton if you're as rusty as me). :cool:

Final Fortune

10-03-2018, 04:06 PM

How often do you play? Both Bryant and I started with 2 Underground Seas after the banning, decided having the second Sea didn't really matter, with 8 fetch lands you hardly get color screwed the way I did in that one game. Like I said, variance happens. And what do you mean reduce the number of fetch lands? Where?

Also, Wasteland is the reason you need a third red dual to support Pulverize. Consign//Oblivion isn't really good either.

Everyone on theepicstorm.com has been on 2 Badlands for a few weeks now, including myself and Bryant. Judging from the past almost 400 pages of this thread, it seems like you both just don't like to see deck changes. Then you see one game that was lost to variance on a mulligan, and you immediately claim it's wrong, seems good.

1) I said the number of fetch lands for Swamp (6 instead of 8).

2) Just because you want to play Pulverize doesn't mean you have to play 2 Badlands, you can play Volcanic Islands where your Fetchland, go. Land, Cantrip and break fetch plays are more search efficient. If you guys want to play an ANT like manabase, that's your call, but in my experience Island, 25% less fetch lands for each Basic and Badlands have their own associated cost to your consistency

3) If you're judging from the last 400 pages of this thread, then you should realize A) I've tried everything already B) I'm open to change when it's objectively better and C) I'm responsible for a lot of the changes to the deck as it is.

4) I've been playing TES since Plunge into Darkness with Beta duals from childhood, I honestly have no idea who you are, how long you have been playing it or have any reason to let you sit there and insinuate my argument is irrational when you're nothing but some recent convert writing weak articles for Bryant's personal webpage - 2 can play that game kid. You've been playing 2 Badlands for 2 weeks? Come back to me when you've seen the trends in this deck for over 10 years.

StonedforgeMystic

10-03-2018, 06:07 PM

1) I said the number of fetch lands for Swamp (6 instead of 8).

2) Just because you want to play Pulverize doesn't mean you have to play 2 Badlands, you can play Volcanic Islands where your Fetchland, go. Land, Cantrip and break fetch plays are more search efficient. If you guys want to play an ANT like manabase, that's your call, but in my experience Island, 25% less fetch lands for each Basic and Badlands have their own associated cost to your consistency

3) If you're judging from the last 400 pages of this thread, then you should realize A) I've tried everything already B) I'm open to change when it's objectively better and C) I'm responsible for a lot of the changes to the deck as it is.

4) I've been playing TES since Plunge into Darkness with Beta duals from childhood, I honestly have no idea who you are, how long you have been playing it or have any reason to let you sit there and insinuate my argument is irrational when you're nothing but some recent convert writing weak articles for Bryant's personal webpage - 2 can play that game kid. You've been playing 2 Badlands for 2 weeks? Come back to me when you've seen the trends in this deck for over 10 years.

Been on the deck since 2010 myself and I have roughly 300 matches in since the ban of probe. But whatever think what you want and play what you want. ✌️

Asthereal

10-04-2018, 05:29 AM

Guys, no need to start bashing.

@Stonedforge: I'm pretty sure Final Fortune was responding to Grapeshot, not you. Also, I've read all your three posts on this forum, and I'm pretty sure you weren't the one who offended Final Fortune. :wink:

Lemnear

10-04-2018, 06:31 AM

Pointing to a face value meta of SFM, Delver, SnT, DnT, Loam, etc similar to 2010s structure is highly misleading and completely ignoring the fact that about 20% of all the decks consist of cards printed after that point in time.

You can't run 2010 lists and expect to battle 2018 techs sucessfully. Evaluation has to be done with the current meta context.

Asthereal

10-04-2018, 06:42 AM

Bryant Cook

10-04-2018, 10:11 AM

In general, part of the reason I don't post here anymore is everyone who replies in this thread is overly dismissive to new ideas. I test things all the time and was shut down repeatedly here, recently, I've found a lot of success with trying things that posters here dislike. Such as two copies of Badlands and Pulverize, Badlands is secretly the best land in the deck as you're a Red & Black combo deck with only 8 blue cards. Four of which are regularly sided out. If you're siding out Ponders roughly 35%-40% of the time, does playing two copies of Volcanic Island make sense? Likely not.

All of my match-up data is public, if you want to question results and numbers have at it. But Anthony was simply playing an iteration of my list, attacking him over a land choice is somewhat ridiculous. If there's anything to question in this thread, it's how members here think that something that would've worked 10 years ago will work today.

You're not obligated to follow the website, I don't expect everyone to, but don't shutdown people who do because you're stuck in your ways from 10 years ago.

Asthereal

10-04-2018, 11:11 AM

If you guys have good results with 2x Badlands and Pulverize, that's cool. I'm not attacking anyone for it.

My brain just goes like this:
We are the fastest and most dangerous combo deck around (barring maybe Belcher and Oops All Spells).
Because of this, I think this particular deck should optimize winning chances first, and adapt to opposition second.
Being able to cast cantrips is very important, so I don't want to run too many lands that don't produce blue.

Lemnear

10-05-2018, 04:51 AM

We are the fastest and most dangerous combo deck around (barring maybe Belcher and Oops All Spells).
Because of this, I think this particular deck should optimize winning chances first, and adapt to opposition second.
Being able to cast cantrips is very important, so I don't want to run too many lands that don't produce blue.

I think here is the root of the misunderstanding in regards to the 2nd Badlands and the 4th Chrome Mox, which wasnt mentioned despite it chopping the same notch:

Cantrips (in this meta) are more likely to get boarded out in postboard games to mimic a more belcher-like gameplay, thus less blue mana is needed compared to red, black and fast one (aka 4th mox and badlands). Badlands is arguably supporting the "black belcher" route better than Volcanic as well as providing the ability of floating black mana into Pulverize at the very same time.

All this is open for discussion, but the "why" needs to be outlined.

Asthereal

10-05-2018, 05:03 AM

I think here is the root of the misunderstanding in regards to the 2nd Badlands and the 4th Chrome Mox, which wasnt mentioned despite it chopping the same notch:

Cantrips (in this meta) are more likely to get boarded out in postboard games to mimic a more belcher-like gameplay, thus less blue mana is needed compared to red, black and fast one (aka 4th mox and badlands). Badlands is arguably supporting the "black belcher" route better than Volcanic as well as providing the ability of floating black mana into Pulverize at the very same time.

All this is open for discussion, but the "why" needs to be outlined.
Yeah, Bryant said that as well. That indeed is new to me. I rarely sided out more than two Ponders.
Actually, I'm not a heavy sideboarder at all when I run TES. I like the flow of the main board a lot.

The 4th Chrome Mox is a different beast. I see that becoming a Simian Spirit Guide in my list.
I just don't have the greatest luck when running the full set of Moxen.

Polski_

10-08-2018, 12:03 AM

With the banning of DRS people have been trying out goblins again! Time to evaluate this matchup -

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-goblins/

Ronald Deuce

10-08-2018, 03:17 PM

Latest of Bryant's leagues was pretty spectacular. Highlights include mainboard sideboard cards and an opponent who whinged Bryant out for netdecking.

Zombie

10-09-2018, 06:05 AM

an opponent who whinged Bryant out for netdecking.

:eyebrow:

Asthereal

10-09-2018, 06:11 AM

:eyebrow:
I remember reading about that very thing a couple of years back.

Still weird. Not that everyone is expected to keep track of this forum or the TES site, but TES isn't even close to DtB. If someone wanted to netdeck, they would pick a stronger performer, so accusing someone who's on a less popular version of Storm of netdecking is just dumb.

Zombie

10-09-2018, 06:13 AM

I remember reading about that very thing a couple of years back.

Still weird. Not that everyone is expected to keep track of this forum or the TES site, but TES isn't even close to DtB. If someone wanted to netdeck, they would pick a stronger performer, so accusing someone who's on a less popular version of Storm of netdecking is just dumb.

It was some rogue playing Grixis Underworld Dreams, it seems. So the criterion was probably more "your deck is good and it wins against shitpiles" than anything.

Asthereal

10-09-2018, 06:56 AM

It was some rogue playing Grixis Underworld Dreams, it seems. So the criterion was probably more "your deck is good and it wins against shitpiles" than anything.
Underworld Dreams, wow. I remember when people were afraid of that card. That was before we were afraid of the millennium bug. :smile:

Grapeshot

10-16-2018, 12:08 AM

New Through the Looking Glass! This month we covered the Grixis Control matchup with platinum pro Brian Braun-Duin. Enjoy!

http://theepicstorm.com/through-the-looking-glass-grixis-control-brian-braun-duin/

whiskeyhughes

10-23-2018, 11:13 AM

Hello Everyone!

My new article at TheEpicStorm.com is officially live! This month, I talk about my love for Burning Wish, by doing a deep dive! Check it out, and let me know what you think!

https://theepicstorm.com/a-deep-dive-into-burning-wish/

Grapeshot

10-25-2018, 09:21 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-anthony-laverde-10-24-18/

Pelikanudo

10-25-2018, 03:41 PM

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-anthony-laverde-10-24-18/

again, just saw a litle 1st game. but why the hell you did not play RoF > BW > ToA and keep it in hand after 2 DR countered? or even PiF!!

I think you should say: I am sorry but I played bad.

sure my case would have been DU! joke.

Vivarus

10-26-2018, 09:06 AM

Hey everyone!

This month's Infernal Tutoring, featuring Caleb Scherer is up! Come check it out, including a situation that I overthought into oblivion!

http://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-22/

Bryant Cook

11-04-2018, 09:48 PM

5-2 the Legacy Challenge for 16th place (awful tie-breakers).

R1- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-11-4-18-round-1-vs-convo-with-shardless-bug/

R2- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-11-4-18-round-2-vs-albertosd-with-dredge/

R3- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-11-4-18-round-3-vs-nocley-with-eldrazi-ramp/

R4- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-11-4-18-round-4-vs-leastbean-with-grixis-delver/

R5- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-11-4-18-round-5-vs-aylett-with-mono-black-reanimator/

R6- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-11-4-18-round-6-vs-cspickle-with-grixis-delver/

R7- https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-challenge-11-4-18-round-7-vs-qbturtle15-with-rug-delver/

Bryant Cook

11-07-2018, 12:26 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/combating-miracles/

Grapeshot

11-15-2018, 12:15 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/through-the-looking-glass-br-reanimator-eric-landon/

Vivarus

11-20-2018, 08:56 AM

Hey everyone! It's getting close to the end of the year so I thought I'd take a look at where this year has gone for the EPIC storm, Legacy and myself!

theepicstorm.com/reflections-of-2018

StonedforgeMystic

11-27-2018, 11:21 PM

Hey, guys. Recorded a Legacy League with The EPIC Storm on Magic: The Gathering Online. Check it out, thanks!

http://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-landon-sworts-11-27-18/?fbclid=IwAR3qqeLg--9jiynh5q6hwrfmBlIELexPy8eGB4Peq5nmr9YjJLo4FX31WR4

whiskeyhughes

11-29-2018, 12:01 AM

This month's "Infernal Tutoring" article is now live, featuring special guest Kazu Negri (FLAMETONGUEKAZU)! Check it out, and let me know what plays you would have made in our three latest scenarios.

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-23/

JackaBo

11-29-2018, 05:17 AM

Hey Guys!
In the SB guide on www.theepicstorm.com (which is GREAT btw) Goblins seems to be treated as a hatebear deck which I’m sure exist. The guide advises for bounce and a tendrils empty swap.
Our local Goblin hero, however, plays a black splash, (which i believe is superior btw) givning him access Discard and the almighty Earwig squad. Since he has a powerful etb effect boucing him is the last i want to do.
How would you guys board here? I opted to board nothing so that opponent couldn’t exile tendrils and i rather kept duress to nab Thoughtseize surgical and the possible mindbreak traps.
Thanks!

StonedforgeMystic

12-03-2018, 11:06 PM

My second video for theepicstorm.com is up, check it out and don't forget to subscribe to the YouTube channel!

http://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-landon-sworts-12-3-18/?fbclid=IwAR2MvbVCRdbNMA49fDuhGhZSlVlUZDjvlTomL1VV9HObKiHOOmEGS4p5cug

Pelikanudo

12-08-2018, 06:32 AM

Izor

12-10-2018, 06:08 PM

In the dark I lead discard off of Swamp turn 1. It hurts more to get chaliced than to blow a discard spell early against decks with counter spells. Info is always good.

That said, If the fetch is my only land and my hand also has a cantrip it's harder. In that case it's pretty much out of question to fetch Swamp and risk not drawing a blue land soon. In that case you have to weigh the chance to get wasted against the chance to get chaliced. I'll usually Ponder off of USea turn 1 as a default there.

Unfortunately I don't think it's viable to play Island, Dark Ritual and Rite of Flame in the same deck. Our sisters with 4 Cabals over Rites can afford anything up to 4 Basics if they want to, but I don't think TES can afford even just a single land that makes neither R nor B.

I also miss Therapy's power with Probe, but it's time to move on imo. I also wouldn't say Therapy is particularly better against control than the other discard spells, because as a matter of fact the card is weak against the card Brainstorm as such. If you Probed someone and saw a Brainstorm your CT was often useless. Duress/Seize is always good.

As someone who's been playing both Storm variants over the years I do admit I'm off of Rite of Flame at the moment, because EtW is worse than it used to be and Ad Nauseam as the only reliable / fast kill con is something I'm not very comfortable with. With DRS gone the maindeck low-resource PiF loop of ANT is also stronger than ever. I still play Burning Wishes because as such I like TES's options over ANT's linear nature, but I don't currently like Rite and EtW, which may just be due to the current meta being pretty hostile towards our mana base and/or EtW being weak.

TES has moved more towards a pseudo Belcher-esque gameplan to combat the meta from what I understand watching Bryant and others' latest videos. And for that gameplan durdling with one-off Preordains, Islands and Cabal Rituals over the full set of Moxen and such doesn't seem the best.

StonedforgeMystic

12-10-2018, 09:38 PM

http://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-landon-sworts-12-9-18/

5-0 Legacy League on mtgo. Don't forget to subscribe!

wonderPreaux

12-14-2018, 02:36 AM

@wonderPreaux, F.Fortune and who wants to join:

I've had bad experiences my last 2 torunamnets with TES sadly...
I really don't spend much time lately playing MTG...

I think the main issue I am facing is the absent of GP. I mean, at its simplest:

Now I really don't know if it is good to fire a discard or ponder or just wait... or even landing a land if it is my unique one in hand!
there are a lot of casuistics that I just can't handle well enough. I mean I can play duress off a land and then wastelanded - loose or I can just do not play duress and loose equally because of cahlice next turn, the same applyes to cantrips, etc.

So I think I definitaly need to change my mana base to one with fetches and swamp.
Also I've been hating quite a lot playing 4 CM, 3 has always been a number I've been happy with. Ialso see that sometimes 8 discard are too many, however I miss a lot the CT power... Ideally I would love toplay 7 discard and 3CT 4 TS. and really don't know how it will perform, but vs control decks CT is just better, not vs Combo/chalice.

Having in mind this list: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=29163&iddeck=242436 which seems to be the staple - mine is the same but the manabase. and -1 EtW +1 duress.
I've been thinking in:
-1 CM +1 CR
-1 Duress + 1 preordain
-3 Duress +3 CT - dont know on this... but 3 CT stay in my side no mater what.

I really think that 1 CR instead of CM is fine now I play 8 fetches, 1 preordain I think is fine also instead of 8th discard - it could be EtW as 10th threat but having so much fetches and CR and 1 less CM seems like the proper replace. maybe 2nd EtW is the right call... + 4 CM.

and the manabase exact as you wPreaux!
related to your manabase, I'd like you to ask:
which is the need to play 2 swamps? why do you prefer it to 2nd USea or 9th fetch? - this was going to be my fetch manabase same but -2nd swamp +2nd USea.
However I think I would like 10 outs to a swamp 1st turn.
I think I could play Island, but it makes sense in a more cantrip focused build like 2 preordain and 2 CR, and apart of that - well you know my feelings on island.

which are your opinions on this?

Alright, so there's a lot in this post, I guess I'll take it point by point.

Turn 1 Discard Vs. Cantrips

Generally speaking, I don't try to play the most protectionist route when I'm playing, I think the aim should be to evaluate the hand and see which path sets you up best to win the game.

Now, I think the most difficult considerations are on the blind, as a lot of the dynamics become clear once you know the opposing archetype. So, let's say I'm on the play, against an unknown opponent with, let's say, the option of a turn 1 Thoughtseize or Ponder. Which do I play?

I'd first consider the rest of my hand -- do I need time or is there a chance to go off? If my hand is Ponder, Thoughtseize, land, but then the other 4 cards are Petal x2 and LED x2, I'd probably jam Ponder and dig for a turn 1 win. Not only do I have all my business spells as outs, but that hand doesn't offer a superb long game anyway. If, however, the other 4 cards were land x2, another cantrip, and another discard spell, I might use the discard spell first to insure a Chalice, Hymn, Counterbalance, or opposing combo doesn't wreck me while I hit the land drops and resolve my cantrips.

Now, when your hand isn't that polarized, you have to look at finer nuances. Like, if I know, Wasteland or not, that I need to find one or more lands, or a business spell, I might play the cantrip right away so it won't get Daze'd or Pierced. A discard spell in that case would be more like "playing to not lose", since you might stop the opponent's threat, but you could get stranded hoping to draw off the top to get a chance to resolve your cantrip. I'd rather "play to win" by setting up the initial mana source or business spell. You'd don't always need the discard spell to win, after all, whereas you always need mana and a threat.

Additionally, you can consider the play pattern of your hand. For example, if you instead had Duress + Brainstorm, you may want to play Duress first before they play their only spell (like, say a Ponder of their own), and then have the follow-up of Brainstorm + fetch the next turn (gotta love that Underground Sea + Badlands opener).

Cabal Ritual / Preordains
I don't much like these cards at all, Cabal Ritual is a pseudo-non-combo with Chrome Mox (as is Past in Flames, which I feel is a miserable maindeck choice), and Preordain is not quite as good in this deck that looks to go off around half a turn faster than ANT.

I think Chrome Mox is very underrated by a lot of players. Granted, I draw 2 of them more times than I want to think about, but the ability to lock in the second color of initial mana and Ad Nauseam from low life totals while allowing and facilitating multiple EtW is just too good to pass up. One of the big things people noticed in storm, broadly, is the speed loss from the Probe ban as ANT lost easy Threshold and TES lost easy storm count and info for the EtW all-ins. The 4th Chrome Mox and, in my case, 2nd MD EtW over the 8th discard spell are ways to get the speed up, still consistently hit Ad Nauseams, and improve the fundamental proficiency of this deck -- explosive, threat-dense gameplay backed by stabler, more consistent infrastructure than the glass cannon decks.

My previous and current list, and various remarks there-in
So I see the list you posted there is one of my lists from the challenge a couple weeks ago. I've since revised the list based on some more testing. For reference, here's what I'm currently testing: https://i.imgur.com/nDLRWjB.jpg?1

I want to comment on some of the non-standard choices, as I think they might make for good discussion overall.

2 Maindeck EtW
I consider this the TES equivalent of ANT's 2nd PiF. Both are taking the place of an 8th discard spell that often ends up in the sideboard, and both are red spells that indirectly beat counter-magic, increase threat density, and hurt your Ad Nauseams a bit. I think it's a worthwhile addition, as the tactic overall works better in TES -- we can Wish for the sideboard Duress in some matchups, and having an extra EtW turns hands that are all mana/discard into wins, wheres ANT still needs to find a Tutor or get lucky on cantrips. Moreover, the matchups where the 2nd EtW is dead weight don't really challenge your life total too badly (combo matchups have your life at effectively "high" or "basically dead" a lot of the time), so I haven't had a lot of Ad Nauseam troubles or anything.

Diminishing Returns
In the list you posted, I had this taking the place of Dark Petition, as I was often siding out an Infernal Tutor to make room for Pyroblasts against Blue, but I found the blind-spot against Show-and-Tell decks to be too irksome, so I'm running Diminishing Returns and Dark Petition in the sideboard. The reason for this is to make Burning Wish more powerful against Black-based combo and other incidental situations where Burning Wish isn't too great (for instance, against Bojuka Bog/Tabernacle that Rotate in to blunt Dark Petition and EtW). In this way, I fell like I can more effectively utilize Wish, as the idea that you'd try to just use it to find PiF is too narrow and you often can't afford to leave Duress in the sideboard against combo like Reanimator. I think, among the blue wishes like Bibery or Telemin Performance, Diminishing Returns is the best one at keeping Wish's value as a threat against the combo decks that can make it lack-luster by beating EtW and it's been the driving reason why I use it and Void Snare over Grapeshot and a removal slot. My Burning Wishes are high-utility cards that I can confidently move into any matchup.

4 EtW in the 75
I like these as the most convenient and comfortable option agaisnt the UBx/URx spectrum of tempo/midrange decks. You can also do trick-plays against Miracles where you bring Ghirapurs and then, once they have single target removal in and ready, you pivot to all EtW and grind them out with waves of 4-8 Goblins (YMMV, pivot with caution).

Pyroblasts/Hope of Ghirapur
I was testing Pyroblast as a disruptive combo of Pyroblast + EtW waves against Miracles, while using Pyroblast as disruption against combo decks' cantrips or headliner Show and Tell. I liked this a bit as I didn't like how poorly Hope of Ghirapur interacts when Shown in, you have to proactively play it instead, or how an opponent could just play Counterblance in response to Hope and lock me out. The idea was that Pyroblast could beat a counter or solve the Counterbalance/Show and Tell problem. In practice, though, I ran into the very obvious dis-synergy of playing countermagic in my Infernal Tutor/LED deck, so, I'm all in on Hope of Ghirapur now. Perhaps a split is worth considering, but I'll get to that later on.

Manabase
When it comes to 2 Swamp, the question is something like why Basics > why 2 Basics > why 2 Swamp? I like having minimum 1 Basic, as sometimes you want to get a land on the board for a discard spell and then go off next turn, so the basic Swamp is easy to justify at the start. However, with Ghost Quarter, Assassain's Trophy, the occaisional Veteran Explorer, and the ever-present Daze, the 1st Basic land is easy to justify, and it can be good to have a 2nd Basic land. In my case, I found I always wanted Swamp -- it enables all the plays I want most, threats and protection. Too often, I'd need a third land to play Echoing Truth through Sphere/Thalia and would lose a land anyway, so why not lose the blue source and guarantee I have a black source through Ghost Quarter or Rishaden Port? It's really silly to me playing a Basic land that just ends up being Darksteel Citadel on the combo turn when the whole point is to consistently get Red + Black. With two Swamp, I can still search blue sources for bounce, but I can also setup plays like discard spell + Dark Ritual in response to Spell Pierce, all on Basics. I also never have to worry about Port or Ghost Quarter cutting me off my business color. I figure, there's a more consistent need to resolve critical or numerous series of black spells, so the 2nd Swamp is better overall.

I haven't missed Basic Island in over a hundred matches without it. This latest mana base might be too low in blue sources, though, only having two physical Islands with 8 fetches, but I wanted 3 physical Mountains for Pulverize, and 2nd Volcanic Island was pretty middling. If I find I don't have enough blue sources, I might switch back from 2nd Badlands to 2nd Volcanic Island, or consider a 2nd Underground Sea over the 8th fetch or, perhaps, 2nd Swamp.

I hope that helps give you some pointers, hopefully spurs everyone to keep giving the deck some attention. I've been having a great time playing TES and feeling pretty excited about testing this new build.

Vivarus

12-27-2018, 09:06 AM

Hey Everyone,

We've got this month's Infernal Tutoring featuring Wilson Hunter!

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-24/

Grapeshot

12-29-2018, 12:23 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/through-the-looking-glass-dredge-mana-patrick-schuster/

JackaBo

12-29-2018, 09:23 AM

Lemnear

12-29-2018, 01:19 PM

Has anyone given any thought to this? I appreciate the help

I dont see a reason to board. Its a deck you have to race

StonedforgeMystic

01-10-2019, 11:38 PM

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-landon-sworts-1-10-19/

More Legacy Storm! Don't forget to subscribe!

JackaBo

01-11-2019, 05:13 AM

I dont see a reason to board. Its a deck you have to race

Thanks!

Bryant Cook

01-17-2019, 07:36 AM

https://theepicstorm.com/matchup-mulligan-turbo-depths/

kombatkiwi

01-17-2019, 11:07 AM

I dont see a reason to board. Its a deck you have to race

As someone who has frequently tested RB Goblins with discard I would agree with this
Boarding duress to hit the opp's thoughtseize doesn't make sense and the black splash versions basically never play mindbreak

Curtis Dittmar

01-19-2019, 07:36 PM

Does anyone remember the 75 for the list that played Cable Ritual and 1 Infernal Tutor in the board? A page number would be just as appreciated.

wonderPreaux

01-19-2019, 11:43 PM

3 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

The deck is in a state of flux, there isn't much point in spending a ton of time constantly rewriting the opening post.

I'd much rather see Treasure Cruise than either of the other two cards.
IIRC, it was something close to this with -1 Chrome Mox and discard spell for 1-2 Cabal Rituals, didn't dig around too much but the variants of this list came about around Q4'2014 before Cruise was added to the SB to replace Tutor and then Petition replaced Cruise.

NVM, it was summer of '14, my memory is bad, here's another list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=817789&viewfull=1#post817789

Also, for the two slots, depending on whose list you look at, it was 2 Cabal Rits out of 3rd Mox, 4th Wish, 13th land, or 7th discard, exact configs subjects to change.

Asthereal

01-23-2019, 07:56 AM

Very close indeed. I really liked that list and it won me some money, so I remember. :smile:
Short version: -1 Mine, -1 Mox, -1 EtW, +1 dual, +2 Cabal Ritual. Also I think we ran 4x Duress back then.

Full list:
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou /13

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam /20

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual /20

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy /7

My sideboard was a tad different from Bryant's, and I don't remember exactly what I played.
At least a few Abrupt Decays to battle all the CounterTops that were running rampant, and also I ran 2-3 Xantid Swarm I think.

mewanyk

01-23-2019, 03:25 PM

Has anyone been playing with the new list that has 2 mox opal in it?

I've tested it with proxies myself, but I'm curious on others opinions before i decide to actually buy them lol.

Thanks!

wonderPreaux

01-23-2019, 11:22 PM

Has anyone been playing with the new list that has 2 mox opal in it?

I've tested it with proxies myself, but I'm curious on others opinions before i decide to actually buy them lol.

Thanks!

Tried it in the last challenge, every time I saw Opal I was happy to see it. 2 seems to be the sweet spot, since it was very smooth for me as far as not drawing multiples and being able to manage enabling the 1 I might see. Bryant's been having an altogether positive experience with it too, from his posted leagues and such.

Edit: My Opals just arrived in the mail today, if that's also a recommendation to you

JackaBo

01-24-2019, 05:19 PM

Has anyone been playing with the new list that has 2 mox opal in it?

I've tested it with proxies myself, but I'm curious on others opinions before i decide to actually buy them lol.

Thanks!

You should check out Bryants latest youtube video, match3 game3 versus Grixis D where he (spoiler!) tendrils with discard protection on turn 1 on the back of opals. Looked powerful to me.

I like this more moderate list (with a full playset of RoF and no ghirapurs main) a lot. I’m very reluctant spending money on Opals though because i think the art is ugly. :(

Pelikanudo

01-27-2019, 07:25 AM

@wonderPreaux:

I wanted to answer you,but had no time.
thanks for your insight wejust share opinions and that is something Ialwayslove.

I really thought from thebeginning of the banning of GP, that a list with 2 EtW and 7 disruption and 4 CM 14 lands was going to be the staple and I really believe that likely those numbers are the right thing in the meta - you don't loose too much speed and things like that.
But the speed exist alwaysin a context - mymain concern are the S&T match ups which Iam facing toomuch and EtW does not do much - now less with no therapy and as always EtW is great for 1st games but for 2nd and 3rd games is not always that great and just feel that sometimes in certain matchupsjust EtW is dead as hellthats why I don't want to play morethan 1.Ialsoprefer tohave other lines - itisfine the belchermode - but don'twant to be advocated to commit that line. Sure full EtW is fine for 2nd and 3rd math ups and that is another story.

related to what to do in 1st turn - well I've changed my manabase to fetch and seems logical those lines.

related to the mabase - now I've been on 2 swmps - one of them snow to see the implications of drawing it over a U.Sea. but I must disagree on 2 swamps 2 badlands and 1 volcanic.
fetch to swamp is now an staple play and the next land you want to draw after this is V.Island no matter what, even if it is wastelanded. Even if you want to play ponder, VIsland will be the land you'll fetch most of the times, as black is the manasource you are going to more likelyto draw. so with 2 swamps 2 v.island seem to be the correct choice even I dislike volcanic as the worst card in the deck likely- playing only 10 bue producers seems to me quite risky - by the moment I am at same manabase as yours with 2 swamps2volcaninc1 sea 1 badlands and by the moment the 2nd swamp didnt cause me too much troubles....still evaluating...

related to preordain / cRit - well I also dislike these cards in TES too but I think on terms on 5th ponder and 5th long term LED and - yes - i - dislike no - hate- drawing multiples Mox - I would play 4 mox if I would play 2nd EtW main and as said likely this is the correct move - but i dont want to be advocated to some too much linear lines.
thats why I am on 1 preordain 1 cRit and am not dissapointed about that - those are cards that ANT play and likely the next cards TES can play and now that there is no DRS we can take advantage of more CRit lines with PiF or like - this is joke as I only play 1, but I 've been also evaluating to make more use of CRit like old TES lists with 2CRit - that is not a bad card at all!

I am playing no matter what 3 therapy side, and really don't understand why people dont play at least 1,it issuch a strong card and beatifull card to play...

@to whom may interest: related to new list with Opal:

It is always curious to me that always new decks of TES shows up with - apparently new tests done - and arguing that maybe it is a good idea and that it is INNOVATING - and that by here people don't innovate - when this is completly false and I dare to say that this is backwards. but the reallity is that I was the first man that tried an TES opal list 5 years ago and concluded some things, there it goes if may help to develop those "new" TES lists - I believe TES Team used my finding 5 years ago to develop that super new opal list, well, that or they reached my same conclusions..., well not the same because they finally play them in their lists and I don't!:

- Opal needs 2 more artifacts in order to not to be dead - so you can use it in the combo turn only or when you have landed 2 artifacts means vs discard is bad because you need to land those artifacts before some are discarded. a total of 12 artifacts are really not enough to support opals.
- you can choose to play 4 opal but you'll need to determine to play RoF or not, then you can play less opals - if the number is not 4, then 1 or 2 is the correct number, but again the impact can be huge.
- you need to play 4 CM if you play OPal - thing I dislike because you sometimes for 2nd and 3rd games want to side out 1 cmox.
- it makes non sense to play 13 lands - sure playing 2 opals and expecting to be .5 land... because they sometimes are DEAD - this is arguable - but come on - 1 island among those 13 lands...? if you assume that opal is .5 land then when that occurs, you'll need to play LED andpetal tojust play a misserable ponder?
- if finally you determine to play opals, then DU is a card to have in mind, I would play that card with 4 cmox.
- the most important thing to me to not to play opals is that sometimes is dead, which is something that does not occur with NONE of the TES base cards (remember thatoccurred 1 time with that RoF from Lem list...). that is important to me when building TES,as TES simply does not play dead cards unless they are disuption or threats.
- having cards in TES that depends on other cards to acomplish its function is just shit. having a card that depends on 2 more artifact cards to provide you 1 mana is nonsense in TES unless: a) you really have so many artifacts that this dependency does not affect to the statics of providing 1 mana b) you play 0 or 1 copies - preferably 0 copies.

Iam more likelydone with TES in this new meta which likely is 2 EtW 4 CM or things like 2 or 1 cRit and 1 preordain and things like this. sure sometimes I just go back to silence genstomes lists because i really enjoy playing nostalgic lists... likely my next list will be 3 silence 4 tseize 2 EtW 4 old TES manabase consisting on 2 cob 4 gemstome and 4 cmox. but now I am investigating the CRit lines like old 2 CRitlists sometime ago were played.

@final Fortune:
how are youdoing with your TES list man? long time ago we don't hear about you!

whiskeyhughes

01-30-2019, 12:05 AM

This month's "Infernal Tutoring" article is now live, featuring special guest Martin Vonásek (Sloshthedark/42AD)! Check it out, and let me know what plays you would have made in our three latest scenarios.

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-25/

StonedforgeMystic

01-30-2019, 12:52 PM

5-0 on Magic: The Gathering Online with The EPIC Storm! If you haven't already, please don't forget to subscribe to the Youtube channel. We are currently only 70 subscriptions away from our sub-goal!

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-landon-sworts-01-30-19/?fbclid=IwAR2dNKPFnrlbiKD5P-WPNK6FOlHJEKMuM4yydbYxwsCPvL2s_quZCl8y3X4

Final Fortune

01-31-2019, 06:56 AM

I havent moved my stance on TES at all, I think most of the innovation you guys are talking about is either bad or things I've already done.

From what I've gathered, people have started to figure out that Island and U/R Fetchlands are bad in a 3 color deck with 8 discard spells and that Underground Sea and Volcanic Island should be played 2x. Dimishinh Returns should replace Dark Petition in the SB because of Reanimator, Show&Tell and aggro and 3 SB Empty the Warrens is a given in a 4 Chrome Mox deck.

I think Mox Opal is complete garbage and Simian Spirit Guide is the best of the worst accelerants if you want to cut the 8th discard, 14th land or 4th Chrome Mox. I'm indifferent on Hope of Ghirapur if you want more/different disruption, but personally I think sitting on Swamp and discard is enough.

I don't like the second Empty the Warrens MD because I don't want to be stuck in Belcher mode, and the lone Cabal Ritual and Pre-Ordain just seem like sub-optimal filler for a deck that doesn't need it.

My list is basically,

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Telemin Performance
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Pulverize
4 Echoing Truth

I've become really conservative with Storm lists, just because I have put in so much testing with different ideas and have always ended up at the exact same place in the end. I don't think MD tinkering is worth a damn, and the SB is general enough not to worry about it.

It would take an unbanned Mind's Desire, Red Orim's Chant or a strictly better Storm engine, accelerant, cantrip discard or bounce for me to reconsider anything at this point. People just need to grind out games instead of experiment with their 75 IMO.

Asthereal

01-31-2019, 07:55 AM

People just need to grind out games instead of experiment with their 75 IMO.
This is a good point. Counterargument though:
If we can't discuss improving our 75, what are we doing on a forum dedicated to improving our 75?

Final Fortune

01-31-2019, 12:36 PM

This is a good point. Counterargument though:
If we can't discuss improving our 75, what are we doing on a forum dedicated to improving our 75?

Now you know why I haven't been around much :) But in all seriousness, the thread could just as easily serve as a "what would you do" collection with sample hands and play lines if people wanted it to.

JackaBo

02-01-2019, 10:52 AM

Now you know why I haven't been around much :) But in all seriousness, the thread could just as easily serve as a "what would you do" collection with sample hands and play lines if people wanted it to.

Is actually telemin performance good? Maybe that’s a slot to discuss?

Pelikanudo

02-01-2019, 11:50 AM

@FFortune: Missed you really..., 100% on same page as you! yeah, we'll see which new deck raise or which new card is printed or if a heavy meta shift occurs to see if we can discuss again!

@JackaBo: I would not go to a tournament withouth playing TP or Bribery in my side, those cards just make BW as good as IT card vs griselbrand decks and in case of TP vs lands/Storm. I prefer for example bribery for my taste.
you'll note he plays also DR BUT not DP, likely for him is unnecesary having already those 2 threats+EtW, I - however - play all them! and sometimes DU even!
It is all a matter of taste my friend.!

Final Fortune

02-02-2019, 07:29 AM

Is actually telemin performance good? Maybe that’s a slot to discuss?

Dark Petition is too slow and not flexible, you need cards in your SB that actually do something vs Griselbrand and give you real options in bad situations. Telemin Performance makes Burning Wish good in all of the match ups its bad in, and Diminishing Returns is a plan B for any deck that has either taxed you out of resources or you must race.

Honestly unless you really want those HOGs for Miracles, I think full ETW, utility and bounce is a fine way to go. I havent changed a SB card in months and never felt as if I needed anything else vs control, I messed around with the Island and 2xBadland manabase a bit for aggro control but that is about it really.

Edit: I also really dislike the current list on the TES website, only 4 Fetches for Island, Mox Opal is dead in hand quite often and the Wish SB is cold vs Lavinia.

JackaBo

02-02-2019, 08:41 AM

So if i get it right:
- DP is a card that turns BW into 4cmc Tutor, thus increasing consistency versus decks where empty is bad
- due to actually being 5cmc its also bad versus daze/pierce
-due to spell mastery it’s bad vs RIP-type effects.

So daze and pierce comes from tempo decks where empty is good, so that’s fine

Versus thalia decks (who may run RIP) and chalice decks (who often runs leyline) DP is bad, Empty is mediocre but here DR shines since a new hand wont give them counterspells.

Versus blue control decks DP seems better since either they can hard counter you or they cant.

So the question is do you want a spell that’s good against DnT/chalice or Blue control.

TP seems great g1 versus a bunch of decks then theres a risk if givning you a Tireless tracker, xantid swarm, arcane artisan. Still good odds versus Reanimator. Question is if it that’s enough for its inclusion.

JosefK

02-02-2019, 08:52 AM

I havent changed a SB card in months and never felt as if I needed anything else vs control, I messed around with the Island and 2xBadland manabase a bit for aggro control but that is about it really.

Honest question as i am intrigued by your confidence;
Do you have any results backing your claims?
The decklist sites I use seem to answer that question as "no".

Final Fortune

02-04-2019, 03:12 PM

Honest question as i am intrigued by your confidence;
Do you have any results backing your claims?
The decklist sites I use seem to answer that question as "no".

I'm 36 with a profession, wife and kids and live in Turkey, that pretty much relegates my Magic playing time to online with friends. I've played the deck for over ten years, you can read thru all of the old threads and take it for whatever it's worth to you.

@JackaBo

DP is ok vs Miracles and that is about it, Telemin Performance is amazing vs Show&Tell, Reanimator, Storm and Lands and Diminishing Returns is ok vs Show&Tell and Reanimator, good vs Storm and Lands, great vs aggro, prison and discard strategies and a Hail Marry vs Miracles if you should need it (if you expect random creatures from the SB just Diminishing Returns instead of Telemin Performance game 2 and they're playing with dead cards vs you now). The thing is, in my experience, if you can take the time to DP for Ad Nauseam vs Miracles then you can also take the time to Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony or Past in Flames as well so what problem is DP helping you with? Even when you want to win earlier vs Miracles than Wish -> Tendrils or PIF can manage, you typically risk it with ETW anyway.

I just didn't get much mileage out of the card when I played it, and I haven't missed it since I cut it for other engines. I don't feel like I need to hedge vs Miracles, I can outplay that deck with what I have, but without Telemin Perforance/Diminishing Returns I just don't have the tools I need to end the game vs Show&Tell and Reanimator even when I do get to go off with Burning Wish and that's frustrating as all hell.

StonedforgeMystic

02-12-2019, 09:23 AM

More Legacy Storm on Magic: The Gathering Online! In case you still haven't, don't forget to subscribe to the YouTube channel, we are less than 50 subscriptions away from our sub-goal! 👾

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-landon-sworts-02-12-19/

Polski_

02-25-2019, 11:08 AM

How do we stand against the latest Legacy creation of Grixis Phoenix? Here's a breakdown:

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-grixis-phoenix/

PS. Some of the examples were of older variations of the deck, but it's good to test and think about what other cards the opponent could be playing outside of stock lists.

whiskeyhughes

02-28-2019, 10:23 AM

This month's "Infernal Tutoring" article is now live, featuring special guest MICHAEL CLIFFORD (CL1FFY81)! Check it out, and let me know what plays you would have made in our three latest scenarios.

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-26/

Daniel Worobec

03-06-2019, 08:29 PM

There has been talk of innovation within TES lately and I think I may have something. I have not tested this option as in depth as the people at theepicstorm.com have but I have goldfished it several hundred times and I have had good results. I know this deck alteration has both benefits and drawbacks when compared to the established TES deck list and I know that some people with think that this deck idea is complete garbage and some may think it interesting. I love the game and I would like to try and contribute towards the Magic community. The following is an altered TES deck with a name that I think is appropriate “TEAS” (The Epic Artifact Storm). Please do not interpret this as an attack on TES, I am just trying to open the consideration to options.

TEAS – The Epic Artifact Storm

By: Daniel Worobec

Main Deck

//Core Cards
1x Ad Nauseaum
4x Burning Wish
4x Infernal Tutor

//Discards/Disruption
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress

//Cantrips/Information
4x Urza’s Bauble
4x Mishra’s Bauble

//Mana Acceleration
4x Dark Ritual
3x Rite of Flame
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Opal
4x Chrome Mox

//Land
4x Badland
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Vault of Whispers
2x Swamp

Side Board

1x Tendrils of Agony
2x Empty the Warrens
1x Rite of Flame
1x Past in Flames
1x Brainspoil
1x Dark Petition
1x Duress
1x Pulverize
1x Shattering Spree
1x Massacre
1x Chain Lightning
2x Hope of Ghirapur
1x Fatal Push

TEAS is very similar to TES but is more focused on using Ad Nauseam with a follow up Tendrils of Agony that using Empty the Warrens. TEAS uses 24 zero converted mana cost artifacts in the deck for a combination of fast mana, being able to get to a higher storm count with fewer mana and enables an efficient Ad Nauseam with a lower life loss, enabling you to draw more cards with less life.

The total converted mana cost of TEAS, less an Ad Nauseam is 30 mana. This works out to drawing one card for every 0.5 life, so 19 life will draw you an average of 38 cards with one spell. After goldfishing TEAS 100 times and using Ad Nauseam 87 of those times, Ad Nauseam ended up using an average life cost of 5.55 life that was needed to bring the storm count to 10 for a Tendrils of Agony.

I debated using one copy of Empty the Warrens in the main deck. The reasons I moved Empty the Warrens to the Side Board is that for one more mana you could cast an Ad Nauseam, a higher focus on winning with Ad Nauseam and a lesser life cost to Ad Nauseam. To win the game with Empty the Warrens you usually need an additional two turns of attacking; I have found that waiting a turn or two for an additional mana to cast Ad Nauseam was faster in winning the game. In my research I have found that there are more decks played that focus on using Tendrils of Agony to win over Empty the Warrens so TEAS focuses more on using Ad Nauseam followed by a Tendrils to win. Empty the Warrens also costs four life if turned up while resolving an Ad Nauseam; since TEAS uses cards with converted mana cost 0-2 mana, if an Empty the Warrens was added to the deck you would fear turning up a converted mana cost four card when you have low life. Having only converted mana cost 0-2 in the deck lets you maximize your Ad Nauseam when at low life without having to worry about turning up a card that will kill you. I chose not to use Empty the Warrens in the main deck of this list because I wanted to. If I had the choice to either add in an Empty the Warrens for an Ad Nauseam, I would choose the Ad Nauseam. You could use Empty the Warrens if you choose too, my deck list is still experimental.

One of the benefits and drawbacks in TEAS is that there is not blue. Blue has better cantrips than Urza’s Bauble and Mishra’s Bauble but it is a third color and sometimes having a lesser amount of different colors in a deck may be better. Another drawback of not having blue cantrips is that you will have to mulligan more often when trying to get key cards. The use of artifact cantrips enable less life loss with an Ad Nauseam, increases storm count for less mana and can turn on Mox Opal better. Having zero converted mana cost artifacts in TEAS allows you to empty your hand fast to get to Hellbent for Infernal Tutor.

On January 26, 2019, Bryant Cook used two copies of Mox Opal in his deck and said, “If I could find a way to play all four (Mox Opal) I would” in a video. I am not trying to speak for Bryant but TEAS may be a solution to adding four Mox Opals even though TEAS is quite different.

Mox Opal has been very useful in experimenting with TEAS. In most games I usually have enough artifacts for metalcraft. With 23 other artifacts in TEAS and all being free to play, there is a 83.5% chance that you will have two or more non-Mox Opal artifacts in an opening hand of seven cards to turn on metalcraft.

Some other drawbacks in TEAS when compared to TES are that it has less colored spells that can be imprinted on Chrome Mox. Excluding the Ad Nauseam, TEAS only has 18 colored spells in it and may not be enough to support four Chrome Mox in the deck. When experimenting with TEAS 100 times, I only used Past in Flames once (I may have used it more if I have had more previous experience playing it in TES). The low amount of instants and sorceries that can utilize Past in Flames may warrant it to not be used in TEAS’s main board and/or side board. The lack of instants and sorceries to be put into the graveyard also effects the potential of Dark Petition; spell mastery may not be turned on for the benefit of three black mana. Brainspoil may be a good alternative solution to Dark Petition despite costing one more mana. Brainspoil does not have to be played the same turn that Dark Petition needs to be played in to gain the three black mana. Brainspoil also gives an alternative option to destroy a creature if needed.

There are only two copies of Empty the Warrens total in this deck list, this deck list focuses more on using Ad Nauseam with a Tendrils of Agony. If you feel it is better to add in more Empty the Warrens I would like to hear feedback on the outcome, if I were to take out two cards out of the side board I would take out Past in Flames and Dark Petition.

Chain Lightning is used in the side board because it a sorcery and that it costs one. Alongside with Fatal Push they can be used to get rid of creatures that keep TEAS from working like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Sanctum Prelate, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Aegis of the Gods, Glowrider, Meddling Mage, Vryn Wingmare, Aven Mindcensor, Scab-Clan Berserker, Kambal, Consul of Allocation, Shalai, Voice of Plenty, Council of Absolution, Eidolon of Rhetoric and Lodestone Golem.

[CARDS]Shattering Spree is good against [CARDS]Chalice of the Void. [CARDS]Pulverize and [CARDS]Massacre are proven cards. Another drawback for not having blue in TEAS is that blue bounce is not playable.

After goldfishing TEAS 100 times, I did 20+ damage on an average of 3.24 turns. According to the definition on theepicstorm.com of ACT (Average Combo Turn), TEAS has an ACT of 2.86 turns. I think that if I were to play test TEAS more I would learn how to play it better and the ACT would be lower. I used Ad Nauseam and Tendrils of Agony as a win condition 87% of the time, Empty the Warrens as a win condition 12% of the time and a natural storm with Tendrils of Agony 1% of the time. I used at least one Duress and/or Thoughtseize before comboing off 44% of the time. When using an Ad Nauseam I used between 0 and 13 life with an average of using 5.55 life, I never ended up killing myself with an Ad Nauseam. I ended up doing no mulligans 73% of the time, mulliganed to six 18% of the time and mulliganed to five 9% of the time.

Final Fortune

03-07-2019, 05:56 AM

JackaBo

03-07-2019, 09:07 AM

Interesting stuff

StonedforgeMystic

03-07-2019, 09:20 AM

New video is up!

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-landon-sworts-03-07-19/

Daniel Worobec

03-08-2019, 04:11 PM

You probably want to look up the Diabolic Intent and Mox Opal lists from the SI thread, the archetype is more consistent when you stay in one color for Vault of Whispers - Rite of Flame and Burning Wish is costing you a turn it looks like.

Thank you for taking an interest in my post Final Fortune. I have taken a look at some Spanish Inquisition lists and I think I looked at he ones you mentioned. Though I have not play tested Spanish Inquisition, I have played TEAS several times and it is consistent. I usually do have enough black and/or red mana to support the function of TEAS with there being 29 mana sources that could produce black mana and 24 mana sources that could produce red mana. I usually am able to get both black and red mana available on turn one.

Lemnear

03-10-2019, 03:14 PM

.

TEAS – The Epic Artifact Storm

By: Daniel Worobec

Main Deck

//Core Cards
1x Ad Nauseaum
4x Burning Wish
4x Infernal Tutor

//Discards/Disruption
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress

//Cantrips/Information
4x Urza’s Bauble
4x Mishra’s Bauble

//Mana Acceleration
4x Dark Ritual
3x Rite of Flame
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Opal
4x Chrome Mox

//Land
4x Badland
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Vault of Whispers
2x Swamp

Side Board

1x Tendrils of Agony
2x Empty the Warrens
1x Rite of Flame
1x Past in Flames
1x Brainspoil
1x Dark Petition
1x Duress
1x Pulverize
1x Shattering Spree
1x Massacre
1x Chain Lightning
2x Hope of Ghirapur
1x Fatal Push

I dont think that Chrome Moxen work well with so few cards to imprint and judging from the amount of artifacts, you dont need them to get the Opals running.

The problem with this concept is card quality, especially after mulligan. Just like belcher you have to mull for a business spell, which are about half of traditional TES'. Also, having to cycle through baubles is slow as hell and doenst get you anywhere if you draw into Chrome Moxen, more baubles or other redundant pieces. The beauty of cantrips is raising the card quality, which i dont think can be substituted by baubles

StonedforgeMystic

03-14-2019, 09:25 AM

Had a chance to record a league with The EPIC Storm featuring zero copies of Past in Flames! Don't forget to like and subscribe! ⛈⛈⛈

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-landon-sworts-03-14-19/?fbclid=IwAR12IIRQqKD53c1Gk2akfdtLmcRFuuVhPZ-jB5P_9tu1rka8t_ueloib5lA

Polski_

03-19-2019, 09:21 AM

With the recent printings of Pteramander and Light up the Stage, UR Delver is back! Not only is it playing these new cards, but also playing cards like Wasteland! How does it matchup against TES?

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-ur-delver-ii

Bryant Cook

03-24-2019, 06:21 PM

I recorded my Q1 Legacy Playoff, check it out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSJvPIg8gAU&list=PL2Bv_NlSo6Nv1Y-_0O05zUxTyy1dcY0bm

whiskeyhughes

03-25-2019, 01:20 AM

ScottW

03-25-2019, 12:36 PM

This month's "Infernal Tutoring" article is now live, featuring special guest CALEB DURWARD (@CALEBDMTG)! Check it out, and let me know what plays you would have made in our three latest scenarios.

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-27/

I like the Thoughtseize decision in the delver MU and particularly the ideas AJ and Bryant discuss related to selecting Ponder vs Brainstorm.

StonedforgeMystic

04-07-2019, 03:15 PM

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-landon-sworts-04-07-19/?fbclid=IwAR3bOaANsY14sYlDlrte5s-1Nivi7uTz7JXNoLoSldhVPlnzjkSI7xZmX9E

5-0 in a Legacy Constructed League on Magic: Online. Don't forget to like and subscribe!

Sg Schultz

04-08-2019, 10:36 AM

New Article up on the site, give it a read and leave a comment!

https://theepicstorm.com/sideboard-theory-extripate-and-surgical-extraction/

Bryant Cook

04-08-2019, 11:52 PM

I had a decent tournament finish this past weekend, read about it here: https://theepicstorm.com/leaving-a-legacy-35k-04-07-2019-4th-place/

kombatkiwi

04-09-2019, 12:23 AM

I had a decent tournament finish this past weekend, read about it here: https://theepicstorm.com/leaving-a-legacy-35k-04-07-2019-4th-place/

I think I played in 2 Kaladesh prereleases and from memory I have one of the red dice in a drawer somewhere
I'll check tonight when I get home

Edit: Yep it's in my bag
If I find you at Niagara you can have it

Final Fortune

04-12-2019, 04:26 PM

And another fad card in TES bites the dust, I don't think that card is ever going to be a thing outside of SI with Vault of Whispers and robots or maybe Belcher with Grim Monolith?

whiskeyhughes

04-29-2019, 01:42 PM

This month's "Infernal Tutoring" article is now live, featuring special guest DANIEL D’AMATO (@DAMATOEXP)! Check it out, and let me know what plays you would have made in our three latest scenarios.

https://theepicstorm.com/tes-infernal-tutoring-28/

StonedforgeMystic

05-01-2019, 02:16 PM

https://theepicstorm.com/legacy-league-landon-sworts-04-30-19/

Legacy Storm with the London Mulligan!