[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[KevinTrudeau]

Finally got down to actually test Probe, and am now seeing its benefits. I tested a metric shit ton of variants, and finally found the list I plan on running this Sunday for SCG: Minneapolis (shitty job permitting). I don't have time to post it and board plans right now, but I'll post it tonight; it's not playing any Chants, although it could be correct just to play Bryant's current list and play Chants. Basically, I found that a lot of what Bahamuth said was correct, aside from three points (that I can think of right now; the testing was exhaustive and so there's probably more I had to disagree with): that Burning Wish was the worst card in the deck after Chrome Mox; that having 3-4 EtW maindeck postboard vs. Canadian Threshold is a good enough strategy; that cutting Past in Flames is acceptable.

[Pelikanudo]

I will give my advice related to d.confidant.

First, don't play this in TES.
Is too slow and there are other much 1 cost cards that can be used instead, pyroblasts , xantid.

See our 2 costs, the more polivalent card, we could also make space to 1 krosan or 1 Limpiar
The only think I can think of it can be usefull ritgh now is Miracles Matchups and MUDs but you ll need to change the strategy.

I for example am playing the old style 11 lands no fetch plan. and 4 c.moxen.
For me its beeing great, tomorrow I have an important tournament and I'll tell you all how it was this build.

Apart
@Bryant:
I'm thinking on the 11 lnads build about siding astrategies and
I would prefer to side out brainstorm and ponder instead of gitaxian.
And in slow matchups I simply change to +1 karakas -1 moxen and then I can side out the gitaxian.
Gitaxian is great and its better the faster the deck is (as the MasterCard announcenment having a first turn win is great but having a first turn win knowing your opponent hasnt FoW has no price.) and the deck with gitaxian and 11 alnds is so thinned that i dont want to side them out. I kept for example a hand with no lands, 2 gitaxian and petal and LED, that's ok for me.

Let me know your thinkings related apart I know you dont play 11 lands.

[lemariont]

Hi guys, Im trying with the last Cook´s list, and maked some good results.

But in two games vs Show and Tell, I realized that the 2xKarakas sb-plan is not as nice as it looks. If he plays Omniscience (70% aprox. of this deck), is useless. He can play Emrakul froms his hand all times he need.

Any idea vs Omniscience?????

I losed two times vs this deck, with karakas in board.... :frown: We NEED a new plan!!!!!!!!!

[AriLax]

Hi guys, Im trying with the last Cook´s list, and maked some good results.

But in two games vs Show and Tell, I realized that the 2xKarakas sb-plan is not as nice as it looks. If he plays Omniscience (70% aprox. of this deck), is useless. He can play Emrakul froms his hand all times he need.

Any idea vs Omniscience?????

I losed two times vs this deck, with karakas in board.... :frown: We NEED a new plan!!!!!!!!!

Just killing them works fairly well. Omni-Tell is also fairly weak to discard as they have to go through a Show/Wish.

[Dark Ritual]

Just killing them works fairly well. Omni-Tell is also fairly weak to discard as they have to go through a Show/Wish.

100% this. I played against burning wish omnitell yesterday, and all my disruption really got to him as that deck lacks redundant business spells as it has one route to victory and that is show and tell. You can also just race them, as they can't get a turn 2 kill or a turn 1 kill unless they have the nut draw. I wouldn't even board in karakas for the matchup, just board in more discard if you have it and try to just strip their FoW and go off afterwards or strip their one business spell, as they aren't particularly likely to draw a second business spell anytime soon giving you time to find another protection spell for their force.

I agree on dark confidant being bad in here. Night's whisper is better as funny as that sounds as you're likely going off the turn after you resolve a night's whisper unless you draw utter crap. Although night's whisper isn't close to being good enough currently in my eyes, there's almost no point to playing the card as 2 mana spells in this deck should be doing something gamebreaking like infernal/wish.

Dark confidant in general in storm combo is just too slow nowadays (sadly) I would love to run the card, but I have almost no excuse to run the card in the current metagame while RUG is on top. They will bolt it and they will trade their 1 mana for your 2 mana.

[jandax]

I'll head all of your advice and not run DC, because learning the hard way is like losing your entry fee before you register. Thanks


And with the talk about Omni-show and RUG, wouldn't Duress be better than Thoughtseize? That's what I get out of the conversation.

[Pelikanudo]

Brief Torunament report:

List:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Karakas
2 Echoing Truth
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames

Made 5-2.
15 of 83 people.
Lost To:
- RUG with stifles instead of the card that puts 2 on gy and from side surgical and fluster
- Miracle. No more miracles I faced. C.b. from side.

Notes related these looses:
- In both of these 2 looses I won both firsts games
- I can recognize I could have won the RUG matchup if when naming with therapy I had named properly (options were 1. FoW 2. Brainstorm) I named FoW, he had Brainstorm in hand, next he drew FoW. Thats simple.
- I should have mulliganed in one mutch up, regarding to this, I don't think parity can be applyed to Lands - Gitaxian.
- The deck as always when winning wins in extreme, I used twice diminishing today and got some maverick plays, but that was vs Burn. and Dredge.
- I faced another RUG which I won 2-1 with stifles also.

Other Notes:
- Vs Maverick, karakas was great in second game, and in first, simply was silence and comboing on second turn. Speedy of moxen was key.
- Information is nice vs second games and first, you know how to face the match up, I can recognize that withouh that information I could have lost the 1st game vs maverick for example or vs Burn, the Burn Match up was strange as I saw in first game a pirostatic pillar.!!
- I felt like 11 lands is enough and the deck has a perfect behavour,
made 3- 3 vs RUG, but I want that both the RUG match up and miracles match up gets better. winning 1st games is ok, but the therapy fails and the fact that the side in those 2nds and 3rd match ups was irrelevant make me think the how to side better.
- I really think that if I would have played fetches I would ha lost more match ups vs canadian thatn not, stifle was a useless card all the time for them.

Conclusions:
- I just dont want to take out 4th moxen, I really side it out in only 1 mutch up by karakas, was in RUG, just to try. Speedy even vs Miracles and RUG is what made me won those games. Thast why I'm going to try -1 gitaxian + 1 land, as I want to preserve speedy and want to side out only in some 2nd and 3rd games moxen. RUG for example.
- 11 lands seem ok, but sometimes risky, I maybe would include 2 Fetch instead 1 gitaxian + 1 City of Brass.
- I didnt used PiF, and I evaluated some games in which IGG would have been better, as they're potentially faster. So I'll change to IGG, and related to RUG match ups, I simply dont reach the time to play the PiF never, they, re just too fast.
- Diminishing again was key, I really don't like to play that card but sometimes is the only goal, when I played the card was vs burn, the turn after dieing and because I just didn't draw business until that last turn...
- The deck is extreme, as I like it, statistics are demontrated i this decks as in no one
- Related to mulligans I didnt made in the entire torunament altouth I kpet a hand with 2 gitaxian 1 petal LED burning ponder, which I kept and which I lost becuase i didnt draw the land.

Questions:

- What do you suggest:
- 1 gitaxian = +1 U.Paradise? or
- 1 gitaxian - 1 city = +2 fetch?
- I'm simply thinking in switching to t.seize. opinions?
Related to the previous builld.

[lemariont]

I returned to 3 Gitaxian, 13 lands. Too many mulligans with no lands, and too many games with only 1 land in 3 o 4 turns.

En sb, Im trying with a Bribery for one of the two Karakas. In the pairing with Show Omniscience or Show and Tell or maybe Reanimator, is another bomb in the SB, that can take Iona or Gilselbrand, to make a mini adnauseam :tongue::tongue:

And finally, I can agree that the best bomb versus ******** UGR, is to include the EtW from the sb (2 main), and maybe a second EtW (3 main) if in your meta there are many ********.

[Final Fortune]

Brief Torunament report:

List:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Karakas
2 Echoing Truth
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames

Made 5-2.
15 of 83 people.
Lost To:
- RUG with stifles instead of the card that puts 2 on gy and from side surgical and fluster
- Miracle. No more miracles I faced. C.b. from side.

Notes related these looses:
- In both of these 2 looses I won both firsts games
- I can recognize I could have won the RUG matchup if when naming with therapy I had named properly (options were 1. FoW 2. Brainstorm) I named FoW, he had Brainstorm in hand, next he drew FoW. Thats simple.
- I should have mulliganed in one mutch up, regarding to this, I don't think parity can be applyed to Lands - Gitaxian.
- The deck as always when winning wins in extreme, I used twice diminishing today and got some maverick plays, but that was vs Burn. and Dredge.
- I faced another RUG which I won 2-1 with stifles also.

Other Notes:
- Vs Maverick, karakas was great in second game, and in first, simply was silence and comboing on second turn. Speedy of moxen was key.
- Information is nice vs second games and first, you know how to face the match up, I can recognize that withouh that information I could have lost the 1st game vs maverick for example or vs Burn, the Burn Match up was strange as I saw in first game a pirostatic pillar.!!
- I felt like 11 lands is enough and the deck has a perfect behavour,
made 3- 3 vs RUG, but I want that both the RUG match up and miracles match up gets better. winning 1st games is ok, but the therapy fails and the fact that the side in those 2nds and 3rd match ups was irrelevant make me think the how to side better.
- I really think that if I would have played fetches I would ha lost more match ups vs canadian thatn not, stifle was a useless card all the time for them.

Conclusions:
- I just dont want to take out 4th moxen, I really side it out in only 1 mutch up by karakas, was in RUG, just to try. Speedy even vs Miracles and RUG is what made me won those games. Thast why I'm going to try -1 gitaxian + 1 land, as I want to preserve speedy and want to side out only in some 2nd and 3rd games moxen. RUG for example.
- 11 lands seem ok, but sometimes risky, I maybe would include 2 Fetch instead 1 gitaxian + 1 City of Brass.
- I didnt used PiF, and I evaluated some games in which IGG would have been better, as they're potentially faster. So I'll change to IGG, and related to RUG match ups, I simply dont reach the time to play the PiF never, they, re just too fast.
- Diminishing again was key, I really don't like to play that card but sometimes is the only goal, when I played the card was vs burn, the turn after dieing and because I just didn't draw business until that last turn...
- The deck is extreme, as I like it, statistics are demontrated i this decks as in no one
- Related to mulligans I didnt made in the entire torunament altouth I kpet a hand with 2 gitaxian 1 petal LED burning ponder, which I kept and which I lost becuase i didnt draw the land.

Questions:

- What do you suggest:
- 1 gitaxian = +1 U.Paradise? or
- 1 gitaxian - 1 city = +2 fetch?
- I'm simply thinking in switching to t.seize. opinions?
Related to the previous builld.

That's pretty much my version of the deck sans the Volcanic Island and Tendrils of Agony, I think you're really going to hate yourself for playing Volcanic Island when you draw it as your only land and the MD Tendrils of Agony is completely worthless and totally antithetical to what you really want to do with this deck when you're playing 4 Gitaxian Probe, peek, ritual, led, infernal and GG those scrubs.

[dionykos]

That's pretty much my version of the deck sans the Volcanic Island and Tendrils of Agony, I think you're really going to hate yourself for playing Volcanic Island when you draw it as your only land and the MD Tendrils of Agony is completely worthless and totally antithetical to what you really want to do with this deck when you're playing 4 Gitaxian Probe, peek, ritual, led, infernal and GG those scrubs.

Question for you guys who don't play fetchlands: doesn't that just make your brainstorm (and ponder) much worse? even with 4 fetchlands (+ 4 IT), I would othen like to have more shuffling effects. I never tried without fetchlands, but have you considered Preordain in this case?

[Final Fortune]

Question for you guys who don't play fetchlands: doesn't that just make your brainstorm (and ponder) much worse? even with 4 fetchlands (+ 4 IT), I would othen like to have more shuffling effects. I never tried without fetchlands, but have you considered Preordain in this case?

Pre-Ordian is terrible, Brainstorm is an incredible card with or without fetchlands, I don't know how many of you have played Lion's Eye Diamond based Storm Decks since Long's Burning Desire, but we've essentially never needed fetchlands to play Brainstorm then and we don't need them now ... altho' yeah it makes Brainstorm slightly better if you have them.

[dionykos]

I don't deny the benefits of brainstorm obv. But brainstorming and not being able to combo off with the extra 3 cards + not being able to shuffle after that is the worst feeling in the world. It's not so much a problem in game 1 I would say, since we keep more explosive hands. But in game 2/3 where our hands are either less explosive (more protection) or are getting disrupted, this situation of poor brainstorming will happen. And not having a fetchlands in this cas sucks.

[ponder]

I played in a tourney for 3 underground seas saturday and ended up top 4ing. I played the list i always play http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1044439
It was 5 rounds 43 players and a cut to top 8.
Round 1 b/w pox 2-1
Game 1
I know what hes on so I turn 1 ad naus with mana floating and tendrils for well over lethal.
Game 2
I keep a turn 1 kill and get thoughtseized followed by hymn and never recover.
Game 3
Turn 1 he takes the wrong card with duress and i kill him shortly after.
I board in chains and echoing truth for a mox a burning wish and a ponder

Round 2 tes mirror 2-0
Game 1
I mull to 5 keeping gemstone city 2x silence duress
I win on turn 6 after anihilating his hand
Game 2
I mull to 6 and keep a rainbow land silence slow hand i win after he attempts to go off.
Sb:-1 burning wish +1 duress

Round 3 U/W miracle control 2-1
Game 1
He mulls to 5 i kill him on turn 2 when he flips vendi clique on counterbalance
Game 2
he assembles countertop lock and double force i lose quick.
Game 3
I keep my seven and play a long game where i burning wish 4 times to finally win with tendrils for exact lethal and having the mana to pay for double pierce epic match.
Sb:-1infernal -1 ponder -1 chrome mox +1 echoing truth +2 chain of vapor

Round 4 tes mirror again 2-1
Game 1
I kill him turn 1
Game 2
He kills me turn 2
Game 3
I bluffed not having silence in response to his iggy silence then kill on my turn

Round 5 U/W miracles ID

Quaterfinals RUG 2-1
Game 1
Kill on turn two with double silence
Game 2 lose to a bolt after ad naus (my fault I was at 4 and was trying to paly around spell pierce and got greedy flipped a wish)
Game 3
I get my land wasted then hold a delta for 8 turns while a delver beats me then I draw a city on Turn 5 of the wait and begin silencing first to pla around stifle
Sb:-1 wish +1 duress
Semifinals U/R sneak and show 0-2
Game 1
I got my chant misdirected and lost.
Game 2
I never drew a tutor after 4 cantrips and fetching
Notes
Pyroblast was bad all day should be xantid swarm.
2x ad naus is ridiculous still
Boarding in the 4th duress for 9 total protection was awesome all day
Burning wish seemed weaker than infernal most matches
I never used goblins all day
I only diminishing returned twice

All in all great tournament I won a box of avacyn restored and ripped a bonfire. The shop we were at had no judge and needed a printer but other than that was awesome.

[Valtrix]

Unfortunately I don't play Storm, so there's no way I can give a very fair evaluation about cards to play or not play for it. That said, I have been interested to know about Abrupt Decay (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135341&d=1346904113)'s impact on the format, and I first thought that Storm might appreciate the card. It answers the resolved cards of Thalia, Teeg, and counterbalance, the three hate cards that see the most play right now. A single card hitting all of these hate strategies is not something I see any other card doing nearly as well.

Despite the versatility, discard to a certain respect can already answer these types of cards. However, there is always the possibility of your discard getting countered, so that's not always reliable. The first downside is the dual color requirements of :g::b:, but in this deck I think that's very doable, considering that black is a main color and Xantid Swarm sees play. A casting cost of two is very reasonable, and the fact that it's instant means it's more difficult for your opponent to play around, especially since there won't be a window to recast a legendary hate bear.

Again, not sure if this is something a deck like this would want, but I was curious what people who have played this deck a lot think about it.

[AriLax]

Figured I would chime in after having played Probe. Made the deck significantly better. The math works out that you basically get to cut a land for a Ritual (adjusted percentages out of 56), which the deck really needed, and you get the perfect info aspect of ANT I always was a huge fan of. Unsure if I still miss the 2nd Ad Naus or not, but that's the only thing I would care about.

[joemauer]

Abrupt Decay looks like a good fit.
It would probably replace Echoing Truth. Kills Chalice, Trinisphere, Counterbalance, Pyrostatic Pillar, and anything in Maverick.

I don't know if the mana cost would prohibit it. Krosan Grip was a card to run some time ago and this seems take the best parts of Grip and mix it with Echoing Truth.

I don't think this card will single handedly propel T.E.S. to a tier one deck. Counterbalance based decks will still suck to play against even with two or three Abrupt Decays, just a little less. But if Abrupt Decay sees enough play to deter people from maindecking Counterbalance as often as they do currently then T.E.S. could inadvertently benefit in that regard.

[Bryant Cook]

Abrupt Decay looks like a good fit.
It would probably replace Echoing Truth. Kills Chalice, Trinisphere, Counterbalance, Pyrostatic Pillar, and anything in Maverick.

I don't know if the mana cost would prohibit it. Krosan Grip was a card to run some time ago and this seems take the best parts of Grip and mix it with Echoing Truth.

I don't think this card will single handedly propel T.E.S. to a tier one deck. Counterbalance based decks will still suck to play against even with two or three Abrupt Decays, just a little less. But if Abrupt Decay sees enough play to deter people from maindecking Counterbalance as often as they do currently then T.E.S. could inadvertently benefit in that regard.

It seems like a great fit! The only card I can even think of bouncing that Decay doesn't hit is Lodestone Golem, but how often does that happen compared to counterbalance?

[thefringthing]

Someone in the ANT thread points out that Decay is pretty poor against Mother of Runes. Something to think about when designing a list updated for RTR.

[Tammit67]

Someone in the ANT thread points out that Decay is pretty poor against Mother of Runes. Something to think about when designing a list updated for RTR.

Guess we'll just have to still use infest! Damn :/

[Final Fortune]

Guess we'll just have to still use infest! Damn :/

I don't know, I'm getting more and more sold on Dread of Night, 4 Judge's Familiar and 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben are a serious problem, we need a cost efficient sweeper that destroys all copies of Thalia, Familiar and MoM on the board and Dread of Night is the only 1cc sweeper that's conveniently immune to Familiar's tax as well.

No fucking way you're resolving Burning Wish -> Infest vs Maverick post-expansion, at most you have Burning Wish -> Death Mark for Gaddok Teeg in your SB.

I think I'm playing something like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Deathmark
1 Shattering Spree
1 (Open, for me it's Bribery, you seriously need something other than Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens in the Sneak/Show or Reanimator match up and Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains do not cut it)
4 Dread of Night
4 Xantid Swarm

I don't think we can afford "catch all" answers like Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth in the SB anymore, Maverick is not exactly a bie for us at this point. I think Abrupt Decay is the kind of card you SB in if/when Counterbalance makes a comeback, but considering Abrupt Decay is going to have an effect on the presence of Counterbalance in the format to begin with I don't think we'll need to use it ourselves. Let B/g/x decks chase Counterbalance out of the metagame for us.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't know, I'm getting more and more sold on Dread of Night, 4 Judge's Familiar and 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben are a serious problem, we need a cost efficient sweeper that destroys all copies of Thalia, Familiar and MoM on the board and Dread of Night is the only 1cc sweeper that's conveniently immune to Familiar's tax as well.

No fucking way you're resolving Burning Wish -> Infest vs Maverick post-expansion, at most you have Burning Wish -> Death Mark for Gaddok Teeg in your SB.

I think I'm playing something like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Deathmark
1 Shattering Spree
1 (Open, for me it's Bribery, you seriously need something other than Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens in the Sneak/Show or Reanimator match up and Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains do not cut it)
4 Dread of Night
4 Xantid Swarm

I don't think we can afford "catch all" answers like Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth in the SB anymore, Maverick is not exactly a bie for us at this point. I think Abrupt Decay is the kind of card you SB in if/when Counterbalance makes a comeback, but considering Abrupt Decay is going to have an effect on the presence of Counterbalance in the format to begin with I don't think we'll need to use it ourselves. Let B/g/x decks chase Counterbalance out of the metagame for us.

First things first, he was being sarcastic because of how dumb the previous comment was. Abrupt Decay is almost a strict upgrade over Echoing Truth in the sideboard. You know what else was sided in versus Maverick that is stopped by Mother of Ruins? Echoing Truth. But wait! There's still Karakas.

You're really worried about Judges Familiar? Sure man. Force Spike away.

Maverick is a cakewalk postboard, have you actually used my sideboard against them instead of those terrible Dread of Night's? The match-up is pretty easy when your sideboard is built properly.

Last thing, counterbalance has been back for months. It's called Miracle control.

[Final Fortune]

First things first, he was being sarcastic because of how dumb the previous comment was. Abrupt Decay is almost a strict upgrade over Echoing Truth in the sideboard. You know what else was sided in versus Maverick that is stopped by Mother of Ruins? Echoing Truth. But wait! There's still Karakas.

You're really worried about Judges Familiar? Sure man. Force Spike away.

Maverick is a cakewalk postboard, have you actually used my sideboard against them instead of those terrible Dread of Night's? The match-up is pretty easy when your sideboard is built properly.

Last thing, counterbalance has been back for months. It's called Miracle control.

It could be differences in metagames but I don't see Counterbalance in U/w control lists as much as other people claim to see them. Regardless, if Abrupt Decay and a B/g deck become a mainstay in the metagame I expect U/w control to either stop playing Counterbalance or start SBing it.

I'm not as confident vs Maverick post-board as you are, mainly because I've played vs the Judge's Familiar, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben decks and have had difficulty dealing with their tempo cards and their dedicated Storm hate at the same time. Say what you will abot Force Spike, if it tempos them into casting cards you really care about then it's a problem for us.

I've always thought Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor or Deathmark was terrible, but I'll definitely play Abrupt Decay if/when I see Counterbalance in my metagame. Until then I see way too much Maverick to ignore it, and if I have to side in answers for hate bears, i.e. Thalia and CO, then I want them to be as cost efficient as possible. I know Dread of Night is incredibly narrow at what it does, but it does what it does incredibly well. I may end up ditching it for the 3xEmpty the Warrens and Thoughtseize plan, but for now I'm pretty happy with it.

[Bryant Cook]

It could be differences in metagames but I don't see Counterbalance in U/w control lists as much as other people claim to see them. Regardless, if Abrupt Decay and a B/g deck become a mainstay in the metagame I expect U/w control to either stop playing Counterbalance or start SBing it.

I'm not as confident vs Maverick post-board as you are, mainly because I've played vs the Judge's Familiar, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben decks and have had difficulty dealing with their tempo cards and their dedicated Storm hate at the same time. Say what you will abot Force Spike, if it tempos them into casting cards you really care about then it's a problem for us.

I've always thought Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor or Deathmark was terrible, but I'll definitely play Abrupt Decay if/when I see Counterbalance in my metagame. Until then I see way too much Maverick to ignore it, and if I have to side in answers for hate bears, i.e. Thalia and CO, then I want them to be as cost efficient as possible. I know Dread of Night is incredibly narrow at what it does, but it does what it does incredibly well. I may end up ditching it for the 3xEmpty the Warrens and Thoughtseize plan, but for now I'm pretty happy with it.

Ah yes, because Judge's familiar is going to see TONS of play... Maverick doesn't have room for this almost worthless card considering they're still trying to add Militant. Dread of Night just isn't that great, Karakas and Decay are just better and more versatile.

[KevinTrudeau]

the 3xEmpty the Warrens plan

I done tested that. It ain't good.

[Final Fortune]

Ah yes, because Judge's familiar is going to see TONS of play... Maverick doesn't have room for this almost worthless card considering they're still trying to add Militant. Dread of Night just isn't that great, Karakas and Decay are just better and more versatile.

I'll take that bet, you'll see 4xJudge's Familiar in Maverick before you'll see 1xDryad Militant, you're seriously underestimating that card's impact on Maverick's bad matchups IMO.

Obviously Abrupt Decay is more versatile, as far as Karakas I don't really use it as anything other than Thalia removal, it's about as narrow as Dread of Night altho' I wont begrudge that tapping for mana is pretty awesome.

Eh, we'll see how the metagame plays out, if Judge's Familiar falls by the way side I've wanted to try Death Pact for awhile.

[Bryant Cook]

I'll take that bet, you'll see 4xJudge's Familiar in Maverick before you'll see 1xDryad Militant, you're seriously underestimating that card's impact on Maverick's bad matchups IMO.

Obviously Abrupt Decay is more versatile, as far as Karakas I don't really use it as anything other than Thalia removal, it's about as narrow as Dread of Night altho' I wont begrudge that tapping for mana is pretty awesome.

Eh, we'll see how the metagame plays out, if Judge's Familiar falls by the way side I've wanted to try Death Pact for awhile.

What would you like to place on this wager? Money? Slaps? You name it.

[Rekk]

What would you like to place on this wager? Money? Slaps? You name it.

mother of ruins to protect thalia
mana excel into gsz for hate.

i'm gonna say judge is not going to see play in mav

sign me up for slaps

[Dark Ritual]

I'll bet any amount of money that dryad militant see's play in maverick before that crappy judge's familiar. I honestly don't see the big deal with judge's familiar, the card isn't that good. Cursecatcher is in ONE DECK. This is cursecatcher with flying, and guess what I don't care about the flying ability of the card. If the card had flash I could see a case being made for the card being solid in legacy as a force spike type card on wings but as soon as that card resolves the opponent will play around it and it will become a 1 mana 1/1 flyer, which isn't actually good in legacy (surprising I know.)

Personally I'd rather not face down dryad militant. That card is quite underrated right now, a 2/2 for G/W with an upside? So they put us on a faster clock and disrupt our PiF/IGG route completely unless we answer it. That card should be at least a zenith target in maverick if not a 2 or more of. I'll leave it to the maverick guys to figure out a list though as I don't play maverick for good reason.

Counterbalance is a thing. Abrupt decay's only disadvantage to e. truth is that it can't bounce multiple chalices or duplicate hate permanents and e. truth is castable off of all the lands in the deck.

TL;DR: Judge's familiar is bad.

[lambert101]

Just sleeved up Bryant's newest list. Any tips?

[Tammit67]

Just sleeved up Bryant's newest list. Any tips?

Don't change it.

Good luck :)

[lambert101]

Thanks, I may go to Jupiter Games tomorrow with his list. I was sold on Ubr Ant for awhile but that deck seems to durdle around more than my liking. I have tested and found out Dread of Night is not as good against Maverick then winning first or second turn. I was considering cutting one probe for a 4th fetch. Thoughts?

@ Bryant- AMAZING DECK

[Rekk]

Thanks, I may go to Jupiter Games tomorrow with his list. I was sold on Ubr Ant for awhile but that deck seems to durdle around more than my liking. I have tested and found out Dread of Night is not as good against Maverick then winning first or second turn. I was considering cutting one probe for a 4th fetch. Thoughts?

@ Bryant- AMAZING DECK

Thats what i run at the moment, i'm just too uneasy with 13 lands

[lambert101]

the land count is what really got me. I know Bryant has this deck on mental lock. Meaning he knows the right numbers. For a low-middle T.E.S. pilot I feel a little more assurance with cutting a probe for a land. Is empty still worth it in the main over tendrills?

[Rekk]

the land count is what really got me. I know Bryant has this deck on mental lock. Meaning he knows the right numbers. For a low-middle T.E.S. pilot I feel a little more assurance with cutting a probe for a land. Is empty still worth it in the main over tendrills?

The main deck empty allows for you to use the drawn kill. so against rug you can just kill them with it instead of it being a mulligan. the probes all help with this as you don't have to go for ad nause.
Now an Infernal Tutor with 4 floating is a turn one. It just makes the deck a whole turn faster which is sometimes enough.

[lambert101]

I still may switch the probe for a fetch.

[thefringthing]

Abrupt Decay's only disadvantage to e. truth is that it can't bounce multiple chalices or duplicate hate permanents and e. truth is castable off of all the lands in the deck. It also doesn't deal with Leyline of Sanctity. This is less of an issue with Empty maindeck over Tendrils, but Leyline does still screw up your Probes, Duresses, etc.

[lambert101]

So should I cut a probe for a land?

[lochlan]

So should I cut a probe for a land?

You should do whatever is correct for your regional metagame.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Don't cut the probe for a land.

Free info is king.

[lambert101]

Bryant's stock list it is. Just got two Karakas for 120 so I'm ready.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Bryant, how do you feel about Therapy main over Duress? I've been testing it to great success. It opens a board spot, and it's crazy insane with Empty the Warrens.

[Bryant Cook]

I had the pleasure of playing against Lambert101 this weekend, I had lost my round one, then had to play against him round two. I was on Maverick, he was playing T.E.S. if he hadn't misplayed against me he probably would have won.

I'm still thinking Abrupt Decay is better than Echoing Truth despite the fact that it doesn't hit Leyline or Lodestone. Has anyone done testing with this card yet?

[lambert101]

Quick recap from Jupiter. Went 2-x. Haven't played legacy since May. Overall list was would. MVP was cabal therapy. Board plans were amazing and decay is something that should be strongly considered.

[Awaclus]

I wrote a long post, then I came into the conclusion that it's too complicated to decide whether Decay is worth running over Echoing Truth or not without test results, so I deleted the worthless content.

Abrupt Decay will see play in some decks and that will work in our favor, that much is pretty safe to say.

[cuthbertthecat]

I had the pleasure of playing against Lambert101 this weekend, I had lost my round one, then had to play against him round two. I was on Maverick, he was playing T.E.S. if he hadn't misplayed against me he probably would have won.

I'm still thinking Abrupt Decay is better than Echoing Truth despite the fact that it doesn't hit Leyline or Lodestone. Has anyone done testing with this card yet?

I've been doing a bit of testing, and it seems that you want the 13th land back in to hit the color requirements. That could have just been the small number of games I played, but I did have a bit of difficulty casting it, especially if you naturally draw the volcanic. I have not, however, done any testing against lodestone golem or leyline, they don't seem that important to prepare for.

[jandax]

Question regarding dropping Tendrils from the maindeck in favor of EtW:

If one plays more often than not against decks that win in a quick manner, would swapping ToA for EtW be the thing to do? Just trying to understand the thought process behind both lines of play.

[Bryant Cook]

Question regarding dropping Tendrils from the maindeck in favor of EtW:

If one plays more often than not against decks that win in a quick manner, would swapping ToA for EtW be the thing to do? Just trying to understand the thought process behind both lines of play.

I would still run ETW over TOA. ETW is still never a dead draw where TOA is, it can always be sided out.

[lambert101]

Empty won me almost all of my games at Juipter this weekend. The only time where I wanted Tendrils was against Miracles, Stoneblade, and Nic Fit. Most decks can't deal with an empty for 8-12 turns 1-2.

[Bryant Cook]

TES by Matt Juszczak (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49276)

He just won his top 8 and is in top 4!

[Tammit67]

TES by Matt Juszczak (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49276)

He just won his top 8 and is in top 4!

Not an hour ago it was listed as AnT, and I was bored

[iPhael]

TES by Matt Juszczak (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49276)

He just won his top 8 and is in top 4!

As a TES player, I want to root for him so badly.... But considering he's up against one of my team mates who happens to be wielding DnT... Idk lol. Ben has stomped my face in many a times with that 75.

DAMN YOU CONFLICTING EMOTIONSSS :P

Nah, but seriously, congrats man, great showing so far!

[Bryant Cook]

As a TES player, I want to root for him so badly.... But considering he's up against one of my team mates who happens to be wielding DnT... Idk lol. Ben has stomped my face in many a times with that 75.

DAMN YOU CONFLICTING EMOTIONSSS :P

Nah, but seriously, congrats man, great showing so far!

Apparently he had lost in top 8 and they reported the match incorrectly.

[iPhael]

Apparently he had lost in top 8 and they reported the match incorrectly.

Yeah just saw that, bummer :-/

[KevinTrudeau]

Question regarding dropping Tendrils from the maindeck in favor of EtW:

If one plays more often than not against decks that win in a quick manner, would swapping ToA for EtW be the thing to do? Just trying to understand the thought process behind both lines of play.

Yes. Considering Empty the Warrens acts as a trump to the top three decks in the general metagame— Canadian Thresh, Maverick, and UW (yes, including the iterations packing 3+ Terminus maindeck in addition to any Engineered Explosives), in addition to a bevy of other decks, pretty much any non-combo archetype— and is the far-and-away easiest business spell to cast for positive returns, I feel the correct game one configuration runs it. Somewhat (but not entirely) related, I also feel it's probably incorrect to run Tendrils main; this has to do with the fact that having the ability to raw-dog it as a winning line in addition to making Past in Flames and Ill-Gotten Gains loops cheaper just really isn't necessary right now against the field game one.

You really want to know which lines you'll want in each matchup, as you kind of want to write a winning script versus each archetype beforehand and have each game go as close to that script as possible; just see in-game which lines will be possible, and which ones won't be. Cast your cantrips accordingly to which script you wish to follow. Obviously, there will be a metric ton of specific nuances per game that will make it hard to make games akin to an ideal, but like I said, just try to get it as close to the script as possible. To get a better idea of what lines you'll want versus specific matchups, here's the the beta version of my fetchland list:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Island (or fourth Gitaxian Probe)
1 Swamp
2 Volcanic Island (definitely prefer Volc as the de facto dual to Sea in this list since Swamp is a second black source, as opposed to Bryant's, where the second Sea is better; Volc+Swamp, usually in that order, is the best combination of two lands)
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands (or fourth Gitaxian Probe; can be shitty early on, but having a third fetchable black source lategame so that you can go Duress into Therapy into Dark Rit is is pretty valuable. In addition, is a third Mountain for Pulverize so that a single Wasteland won't screw you over)

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

SB:
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Pulverize
1 Reverent Silence (or Diminishing Returns; or Ill-Gotten Gains; or even BW target X [Bribery, for example, if you're so inclined], though prob not)
1 Silent Departure (or a cornucopia of other BW-able targets to deal with hatebears)
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread of Night (or Chain of Vapor) —the fact that the deck runs Infernal Tutor is definitely a plus for DoN
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island

Versus Canadian Threshold, with a turn one or two Empty the Warrens (note that EtW is easier to cast) approaching (you could actually even say bettering) the same winning percentage a turn one or two Ad Nauseam will, Ad Nauseam becomes redundant; turn three or later, due to their multitude of burn spells, both business spells become weaker, meaning you want the ability to PiF cheaper/raw-dog Tendrils. Therefore, alls I do in that matchup (since Xantid Swarm in for Probes isn't very good because they leave in their burn) is -1 Ad Nauseam for +1 Tendrils.

Versus Maverick, you don't need the ability to Pif cheaper/IGG cheaper/raw-dog Tendrils, and there are many situations where Ad Nauseam will be better than EtW, so I make no changes in business spells (if you're curious, the board plan is -4 Duress, +1 Therapy, +3 Dread of Night)

Versus UW, you'll actually want all three since EtW before they drop down Counterbalance is a huge line, in addition to the obvious boons of the other two business spells. The board plan is -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Island, -1 Infernal Tutor for +3 Xantid Swarm, +1 Tropical Island, +1 Tendrils of Agony. SBing out IT here acts Diminishing Returns, which is why I didn't include DR in the above iteration of my heavily-goldfished build; it acts as a cure for those famed BW-but-no-other-business-spell hands that occur in the middle (turn three or four) of the game after you've landed a Xantid Swarm, as nine mana (which is equivalent to the cheaper basic IGG loop) equals Ad Nauseam against a deck that doesn't really pressure you much in terms of damage.

I don't have a set-in-stone board plan against Force of Will combo decks, but obviously side out Empty for Tendrils; I don't know if you should board out Burning Wish, Probe, or Therapy for the Swarm package, but I'm pretty sure it's the Probe package.

Versus other LED combo decks, just swap EtW for Tendrils. Verdict is still out on whether Swarm (in for Probes probably) is necessary versus other storm variants that play Chant effects; test it or something.

Of course, this post/list/configuration might become moot soon, what with the new set potentially shaking things up, but whatever.

Concerning Abrupt Decay— seems very, very interesting. Its inclusion in this deck will definitely be predicated a lot on whether or not Counterbalance decks will still prominently exist. I really, really hope its printing willn't cause BUG Thoughtseize/Force decks to rise in the metagame, though the archetype probably will. It will also be interesting to see which TES manabase supports it best. The fact that it can't deal with Lodestone Golem/Leyline of Sanctity probably willn't matter at all.

Isn't it weird that some of your childhood friends are now parents/soon to be parents? It's fucking weirding me out right now.

[Matt Juszczak]

I figured after all the time I've spent lurking here absorbing info from you guys, I owe you at least some sort of recollection of my run with TES at the Legacy SCG Open in Portland.

First of all, although I've been playing storm variants for quite a while, I only switched to TES recently. A large part of my decision to move on from my typical TNT build was due to my belief that the Pacific Northwest is a particularly combo-heavy metagame, and I wanted to be faster than the competition. Additionally, I was drawn to the versatility and adaptability of the decision trees in the deck that seemed ideal for a naturally diverse format. I guess you could say I was hedging my bets against either metagame, but I'd prefer summarize by saying that my experiences indicated that TES was better against the combo decks, and more flexible against everything else.

As for my matchups, I'll try to do my best to summarize them from memory. After playing 9 rounds + quarterfinals on Saturday night, I was not in a mindset to be taking match notes expecting another top 8 on Sunday.


Round 1: Eureka, Loss

This match is the fuzziest in my memory, but I recall that my hand in both games were not particularly fast, but packed a reasonable amount of disruption and cantrips. However, I was not able to craft a winning grip either game that could fight through his abundance of permission. As I recall, I had to deal with 3 Force of Wills in game 1 before he resolved Eureka for the game, and game 2 was an even bigger disaster as my cantrips failed to find adequate protection for a total of 4 Force of Wills and 1 Misdirection over the course of the game.

0-1

Round 2: Hive Mind, Win

Game 1 was over in short order when Gitaxian Probe revealed his gameplan with no permission to back it up. Duress hit show and tell and he was dead a few turns later from a show-boat Grapeshot. Game two was a loose keep on my part and while he did not have any permission again, he did have the combo, and my cantrips failed to find sufficient acceleration or disruption before he was able to resolve it. Game 3 was over on turn 2 when I resolved silence into an Ad Nauseum, finding more than enough gas to Tendrils him out.

1-1

Round 3: Esper Stoneblade

This matchup was a bit of a cakewalk. His turn 1 Thoughseize could only hit one of my tutors and my Probe showed he only had a Force of Will to stop me, which I grabbed with Duress. On my next turn I dropped a bunch of goblins on the field, and they went the distance. Game two he cast Lingering Souls and Jitte while I crafted my hand, and I was able to silence him out of the game, on turn 4, before he could create a relevant number of Jitte counters to prevent a lethal Tendrils.

2-1

Round 4: Burn

I knew my opponent was playing burn, so I mulliganed a slowish hand into a 6-card grip that could Empty the Warrens for 10 goblins on turn 2, while on the play. The goblins finished the game while I was still at a healthy 7 life. Between games, my opponent mentioned something that sounded like a confirmation of my suspicion that his sideboard against me was limited to Mindbreak Trap. Despite that knowledge, the look on his face when he saw his 7 told me the Trap was not among his starting cards. I acted on that intuition and fired off a turn 1 Ad Nauseum. My guess was correct, and he lost the game after only getting a chance to swing with his first turn Goblin Guide.

3-1

Round 5: Sneak/Show

My opponent was initially confused by a combination of Gitaxian Probe, followed by a Polluted Delta, which later fetched a Volcanic Island. The few turns it took him to deduce what I was playing bought me time turn a conservative keep into something that could win. When he finally Sneak Attacked in a Grizzelbrand, his deck failed him by not only failing to produce a petal/monster combo to kill me on the spot in the first 14 draws, but also missed hitting even a single force of will. After an attack, and 7 more draws he was still in the same position. With him sitting at 6 life, all I had to do was turn my below-average hand into a small Tendrils. The exact same situation replayed itself in game 2, except he was much faster, and my storm count was smaller. With him at 4 life, I ended up with 5 copies of Tendrils on the stack. He had Misdirections for 3 of them, but was not aware that he would not gain life for the copies that hit me. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

4-1

Round 6: Merfolk

I was not happy to see a maindeck Stifle in his opening hand when I cast a 1st turn Duress, but luckily that was all the permission he had. Empty the Warrens on turn 2 put 14 goblins on the field, and he was not able to summon enough fish to stop the assault. Game 2 was fairly drawn out as I slowly drew out a large amount of counter-magic that was revealed by Gitaxian Probe, but he presented no real clock to pressure me. Eventually I whittled down his permission and won through past in flames and a barrage of previously countered rituals and tutors in my graveyard.

5-1

Round 7: Goblins

I saw one of my playtest buddies play this opponent the round before this, and both games were blowouts in favor of the Goblin player. He obviously knew his deck very well, but I was quite happy with the matchup because I did not see plateaus or Thalia's in his deck during that match. He also knows what I'm playing and he jokes that the entire match will last no more than 18 total turns. Unfortunately, my first turn Probe revealed I was in for a tougher time than I thought, as Thalia was in his opener. Luckily, my hand featured a turn 2 Ad Nauseum with mana floating, which quickly turned into a lethal Tendrils. Game 2 I lead with a duress, seeing a Thalia, the mana to cast it, a bunch of red-guys, and no legal options for discard. After Thalia came down on turn 2, the game was pretty much over, but I played on just to see what else he brought in. The rub-ins came from my deck a turn later when I drew the Inquision of Kozilek I boarded in specifically to nab Thalia. Regardless, another Probe revealed Red Elemental Blast had come in, and he killed me shortly thereafter. My hand for game 3 was solid, but I was forced to go for an Ad Nauseum on turn 2 with no floating mana when Gitaxian Probe revealed Thalia in his opening hand again. The Ad Nauseum was terrible, resulting in me losing over half my life to cantrips and discard before I hit any manner of acceleration or tutors. Luckily, I was able to stop revealing at 2 life when I finally got the pieces to put together exactly enough mana and storm to cast a tendrils for 20. Total turns in the match: 13.

6-1

Quarterfinals: RUG Delver

After clawing my way from the round 1 loss to my 2nd top-8 of the weekend, I was paired against a RUG Delver list with a several Flusterstorms in the main, in addition to the average permission suite, as well as the full complement of Stifles. There's not much to say about this match, except my cantrips did not find what I needed, and his draws were quite good. Game 1, I died without a permanent on the board after getting Wastelanded out, and my subsequent artifact mana running into a barrage of Dazes and Spell-Pierces. All while a Goyf and Delver were running full-speed into the red-zone. Game 2 was much of the same. His opening 7 were quite strong once again, but as I recall, the game was within reach until he blindly flipped his Delver off Daze just after I had finished dealing with his initial permission. I was unfortunately not in a position to go off through the daze, and things only got worse when he ripped another wasteland a turn later. The delver clock was joined by a Goyf, and I was not able to put together a combination of cards in time that could get the job done.

Result: 7th.


I'm not sure how much of that information is useful to anyone, and the list is fairly standard, but I'll be lurking around if there is anything that should be clarified.

Anyway, I just want to close by saying all the information in this thread has been invaluable. Thanks to all the contributors.

[Bryant Cook]

Yes. Considering Empty the Warrens acts as a trump to the top three decks in the general metagame— Canadian Thresh, Maverick, and UW (yes, including the iterations packing 3+ Terminus maindeck in addition to any Engineered Explosives), in addition to a bevy of other decks, pretty much any non-combo archetype— and is the far-and-away easiest business spell to cast for positive returns, I feel the correct game one configuration runs it. Somewhat (but not entirely) related, I also feel it's probably incorrect to run Tendrils main; this has to do with the fact that having the ability to raw-dog it as a winning line in addition to making Past in Flames and Ill-Gotten Gains loops cheaper just really isn't necessary right now against the field game one.

You really want to know which lines you'll want in each matchup, as you kind of want to write a winning script versus each archetype beforehand and have each game go as close to that script as possible; just see in-game which lines will be possible, and which ones won't be. Cast your cantrips accordingly to which script you wish to follow. Obviously, there will be a metric ton of specific nuances per game that will make it hard to make games akin to an ideal, but like I said, just try to get it as close to the script as possible. To get a better idea of what lines you'll want versus specific matchups, here's the the beta version of my fetchland list:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Island (or fourth Gitaxian Probe)
1 Swamp
2 Volcanic Island (definitely prefer Volc as the de facto dual to Sea in this list since Swamp is a second black source, as opposed to Bryant's, where the second Sea is better; Volc+Swamp, usually in that order, is the best combination of two lands)
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands (or fourth Gitaxian Probe; can be shitty early on, but having a third fetchable black source lategame so that you can go Duress into Therapy into Dark Rit is is pretty valuable. In addition, is a third Mountain for Pulverize so that a single Wasteland won't screw you over)

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

SB:
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Pulverize
1 Reverent Silence (or Diminishing Returns; or Ill-Gotten Gains; or even BW target X [Bribery, for example, if you're so inclined], though prob not)
1 Silent Departure (or a cornucopia of other BW-able targets to deal with hatebears)
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread of Night (or Chain of Vapor) —the fact that the deck runs Infernal Tutor is definitely a plus for DoN
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island

Versus Canadian Threshold, with a turn one or two Empty the Warrens (note that EtW is easier to cast) approaching (you could actually even say bettering) the same winning percentage a turn one or two Ad Nauseam will, Ad Nauseam becomes redundant; turn three or later, due to their multitude of burn spells, both business spells become weaker, meaning you want the ability to PiF cheaper/raw-dog Tendrils. Therefore, alls I do in that matchup (since Xantid Swarm in for Probes isn't very good because they leave in their burn) is -1 Ad Nauseam for +1 Tendrils.

Versus Maverick, you don't need the ability to Pif cheaper/IGG cheaper/raw-dog Tendrils, and there are many situations where Ad Nauseam will be better than EtW, so I make no changes in business spells (if you're curious, the board plan is -4 Duress, +1 Therapy, +3 Dread of Night)

Versus UW, you'll actually want all three since EtW before they drop down Counterbalance is a huge line, in addition to the obvious boons of the other two business spells. The board plan is -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Island, -1 Infernal Tutor for +3 Xantid Swarm, +1 Tropical Island, +1 Tendrils of Agony. SBing out IT here acts Diminishing Returns, which is why I didn't include DR in the above iteration of my heavily-goldfished build; it acts as a cure for those famed BW-but-no-other-business-spell hands that occur in the middle (turn three or four) of the game after you've landed a Xantid Swarm, as nine mana (which is equivalent to the cheaper basic IGG loop) equals Ad Nauseam against a deck that doesn't really pressure you much in terms of damage.

I don't have a set-in-stone board plan against Force of Will combo decks, but obviously side out Empty for Tendrils; I don't know if you should board out Burning Wish, Probe, or Therapy for the Swarm package, but I'm pretty sure it's the Probe package.

Versus other LED combo decks, just swap EtW for Tendrils. Verdict is still out on whether Swarm (in for Probes probably) is necessary versus other storm variants that play Chant effects; test it or something.

Of course, this post/list/configuration might become moot soon, what with the new set potentially shaking things up, but whatever.

Concerning Abrupt Decay— seems very, very interesting. Its inclusion in this deck will definitely be predicated a lot on whether or not Counterbalance decks will still prominently exist. I really, really hope its printing willn't cause BUG Thoughtseize/Force decks to rise in the metagame, though the archetype probably will. It will also be interesting to see which TES manabase supports it best. The fact that it can't deal with Lodestone Golem/Leyline of Sanctity probably willn't matter at all.

Isn't it weird that some of your childhood friends are now parents/soon to be parents? It's fucking weirding me out right now.

There are so many things I dislike about this list/manabase. This is a deck that opperates off of 1-2 lands almost all the time, drawing basic swamp, island, Volcanic/Badlands is going to be terrible at times.

I hate Pulverize, I will never think that card is good. It doesn't deal with Trinisphere effectively. Reverent Silence? Really? Same could be said for Dread of Night. This list gets housed by Teeg.

Whatever though, people can play whatever they'd like.

[lambert101]

I was q believer of the Dread of Nights over Karakas until I used Karakas. That game
went bounce Thalia then win.

[Bryant Cook]

I was q believer of the Dread of Nights over Karakas until I used Karakas. That game
went bounce Thalia then win.

It was a Gaddock Teeg in game two (I Green Sun Zenith'd for it). Regardless, the fact that it saved you a mana was pretty huge.

[KevinTrudeau]

There are so many things I dislike about this list/manabase. This is a deck that opperates off of 1-2 lands almost all the time, drawing basic swamp, island, Volcanic/Badlands is going to be terrible at times.

You're very right about that (aside from Volcanic). I was never insinuating that this manabase was superior to a 5c one, I was just kind of testing it on the side to see precisely how well having the potential ability to prevent Wasteland activations during your developmental phases is (in addition to Therapy over Silence), and it's not bad.


I hate Pulverize, I will never think that card is good. It doesn't deal with Trinisphere effectively. Reverent Silence? Really? Same could be said for Dread of Night. This list gets housed by Teeg.

Pulverize is the mass-artifact destruction spell for this list since red sources aren't nearly as abundant; Shattering Spree is better in your list. Nothing really deals with Trinisphere effectively. Still on the fence over Reverent Silence, as I don't even think it's truly good at getting rid of Counterbalances; its inclusion came after a rough testing session with UW. Dread of Night is a fine card; it's not necessarily better than a bounce spell, but it obviously has a lot of plusses. Teeg doesn't house this list.

[Bryant Cook]

You're very right about that (aside from Volcanic). I was never insinuating that this manabase was superior to a 5c one, I was just kind of testing it on the side to see precisely how well having the potential ability to prevent Wasteland activations during your developmental phases is (in addition to Therapy over Silence), and it's not bad. I was thinking if you happened to draw Island + Volcanic or Swamp + Badlands, those situations.


Pulverize is the mass-artifact destruction spell for this list since red sources aren't nearly as abundant; Shattering Spree is better in your list. Nothing really deals with Trinisphere effectively. Still on the fence over Reverent Silence, as I don't even think it's truly good at getting rid of Counterbalances; its inclusion came after a rough testing session with UW. Dread of Night is a fine card; it's not necessarily better than a bounce spell, but it obviously has a lot of plusses. Teeg doesn't house this list.

I would probably run a card like Meltdown before I ran Pulverize. Maybe opt for a non-wishable answer? Rebuild? Hurkyls? The dream of answering Counterbalance through Burning Wish has left my head, it's almost never an optimal place to be. You're better off just being proactive or at least running Pyroblast. Who knows, people running Decay may scare off Counterbalance from decklists.

How does Teeg not house this list? You need two Dread of Night (Assuming you have naturally drawn two or have Infernal'd and they didn't Green Sun's Zenith for Pridemage) or Burning Wish for Silence Departure.

[j_rb]

Let me chime in here since there's some talk about people testing a mana base to help against wasteland. I tested it last year when my meta was completely bat shit rampant with wastelands and I learned 2 things. One was if you use fetches/duals to make up this mana base it can slow the deck down tremendously, and speed is one of the strong points of playing TES. Two, 4 chrome mox is sick against wasteland. So guys don't play a ant style mana base and forgo silence because of it. Just cut a probe and/or ponder for a 4th chrome mox. It'll be sweet. I promise.

[Jessenator]

I never really had huge problems with Wasteland due to Chrome Mox, that's why I believe that it should still be a 4 of in the deck. Cook was right all along about the Gitaxian Probes in the mainboard.. Running a 57 card deck while seeing their hand before you turn 1-2 Warrens / Ad Nauseam is just premium for 2 life. Not mention 2 goblins can mean all the difference.

How do you guys side against RUG / UW Miracles? So when to the Xantid Swarms come in?

[Final Fortune]

Let me chime in here since there's some talk about people testing a mana base to help against wasteland. I tested it last year when my meta was completely bat shit rampant with wastelands and I learned 2 things. One was if you use fetches/duals to make up this mana base it can slow the deck down tremendously, and speed is one of the strong points of playing TES. Two, 4 chrome mox is sick against wasteland. So guys don't play a ant style mana base and forgo silence because of it. Just cut a probe and/or ponder for a 4th chrome mox. It'll be sweet. I promise.

I agree, I've found the same to be true for Fetchlands and Dual Lands to a certain extent where I get color screwed on not being able to produce U, b and r or U, b and w quite a bit and I'm on the 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 3 Underground Sea, 4 Chrome Mox manabase with 4 Gitaxian Probe.

Drawing Badlands is terrible and drawing Volcanic Island is bad, those two cards fill me with murderous rage every time I open with them. If/when they print a 3rd viable Golden Land, I don't think I'd ever bother to play another Fetch or Dual Land in the deck regardless of Brainstorm.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Epic Experiment XUR

Sorcery

Exile the top X cards of your library.
For each instant and sorcery cards with converted mana cost X or less among them, you may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards exiled this way that weren't cast into your graveyard.

[JJ-JKidd]

Epic Experiment XUR

Sorcery

Exile the top X cards of your library.
For each instant and sorcery cards with converted mana cost X or less among them, you may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards exiled this way that weren't cast into your graveyard.

Was just thinking about this too. But how? More applicable I think in UBr AdN as you will surely wont be exiling Chant/Silence, Chrome Mox. Only drawback is that UBr AdN has more lands so the chances that you exile one is high.

[Final Fortune]

Was just thinking about this too. But how? More applicable I think in UBr AdN as you will surely wont be exiling Chant/Silence, Chrome Mox. Only drawback is that UBr AdN has more lands so the chances that you exile one is high.

Hmm, it's more or less a watered down Mind's Desire that scales with our mana instead of with our storm count, I think it's playable if you look at it like the 2xLED sink. Exiling Silence is irrelevant, because you've already resolved your threat, you're still generating Storm and Mind's Desire wouldn't be able to imprint Chrome Mox either, which makes me wonder at what mana investment is this card on par with Diminishing Returns trading land drops and artifact acceleration for free mana costs?

Ideally you'd always want to cast it for at least 5 so you can flip your Ad Nauseam, and 9 mana is plausible if 2xLED is the pre-requisite. Also the cool thing about this card when compared to Diminishing Returns is that your opponent doesn't get to draw into Force of Will and you get to keep all copies of Rite of Flame in your graveyard. Furthermore it seems like a pretty strong wish target even without LED, because you can Burning Wish for it and cast it on your next turn.

What are the odds of flipping 1 of 2 Ad Nauseam in a 53 card deck if you can draw 5 cards?

I think this could be a pretty good card in theory, but the mana cap on it is a huge detriment.

[Lemnear]

Mana is a problem. If you want to use your LED's and wish for this it's 9 mana for 5 cards where diminishing returns is 6 mana for 7 cards ... that's a huge gap not even the "Free"-clause can fill given that most of the deck is mana and 1cc cantrips. I doubt It offers any real advantage over DR as a First/Second Turn Play Out of the SB.

I rather imagine it's application MD if Ad Nauseam isn't an option due to low life or as mana sink After your infernal/Wish got countered/discarded to come back into the game. Otherwise, any drawn BW or infernal would do the same :/

This is an exciting card and needs testing

[j_rb]

This is an exciting card and needs testing

Agreed, I'm gonna test it when it comes out as a 1 of in the board. I'm gonna keep dr also as it's a less mana intensive option to combo.

When I test it I'll probably test it with a list with 2 ad nauseams md.

I'm really excited about this card.

[Final Fortune]

It's not MD material IMO, yeah the card is definitely cost innefficient compared to Diminishing Returns, but if you want another example of a cost inefficient card then you can look at Past in Flames and that turned out alright. Even if we're talking about casting this thing for like 6+ cards it's not out of the realm of plausibility, and the key difference between this and Diminishing Returns, like Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains, is that they don't draw off our business spell.

[Bryant Cook]

Ran the list in a local tonight beating Dredge, RUG, Death and Taxes, Lost to Hivemind, then beat it in the finals. The deck ran incredibly well, I'm still very happy with this list.

[Dark Ritual]

I'm not even going to bother testing Epic Experiment. The card costs approximately infinite if you want to reliably win with it as a storm engine. It's almost required that you have double LED to use this card and not fizzle. The card is a watered down mind's desire, and mind's desire isn't even that great in here. You could try to design a completely new storm shell for the card but I doubt it would be better than what we have currently.

Exiling protection isn't necessarily the worst. Casting a silence for free when your opponent is holding a stifle makes that stifle look quite bad. UBr ANT has the same problem with this card in theory as well; exiling therapy/duress instead of real cards to continue the combo.

The only draw to experiment is the synergy with brainstorm, but even that seems like a corner case unless you happen to raw dog tendrils or something along those lines.

You also have to pump 9+ mana into this card to win, as you're very likely going to wish into the card and going for X=4 seems incredibly risky and at that point I'd rather d. returns with 2 mana floating, as drawing 7 cards with 2 mana floating is likely going to win the game for you.

[lambert101]

Bryant, How did the Hivemind matches play out? I have never played against that deck with the Epiciness.

[j_rb]

Bryant, How did the Hivemind matches play out? I have never played against that deck with the Epiciness.

Hive mind is relatively easy as long as they don't show and tell emrakrul on turn 1.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Played the old love at the local tourney today. had to drop in the finals to pick up my fiancee. Played Bryant's exact 75, because I haven't a clue about storm.

Round 1 Gobbos
2-0

Round 2 ANT
2-1: Silence is a monster

Round 3 Dredge
1-2: I get lucksacked out. Actually, I have never beat LED with TES. It's like they're always a turn faster and have more disruption.

round 4 UG Enchantress
2-1

Semifinals UW Miracles
2-0

ETW main was horrible. I wanted tendrils main all the time.

[AriLax]

Round 3 Dredge
1-2: I get lucksacked out. Actually, I have never beat LED with TES. It's like they're always a turn faster and have more disruption.


Just Silence them on turn 2. And keep aggressive draws. The matchup is actually pretty good. Also, Duress is shocking good against them on the play. Actually, just win the die roll, that helps a ton.

[Bryant Cook]

Played the old love at the local tourney today. had to drop in the finals to pick up my fiancee. Played Bryant's exact 75, because I haven't a clue about storm.

Round 1 Gobbos
2-0

Round 2 ANT
2-1: Silence is a monster

Round 3 Dredge
1-2: I get lucksacked out. Actually, I have never beat LED with TES. It's like they're always a turn faster and have more disruption.

round 4 UG Enchantress
2-1

Semifinals UW Miracles
2-0

ETW main was horrible. I wanted tendrils main all the time.

Basically just do what Ari said. Also, I havent been in a single situation where I've wanted Tendrils main deck yet. The Empty the Warrens main has forced blue players to play against me differently, forcing them to counter mana at times instead of just waiting for the tutor. It's beautiful.

[lochlan]

The Empty the Warrens main has forced blue players to play against me differently, forcing them to counter mana at times instead of just waiting for the tutor. It's beautiful.

I don't understand this. They counter your acceleration because they're worried you have a miser's copy of a win condition in your hand? That seems paranoid, and countering mana gives you a much better opportunity to rebuild. It seems more optimal for the blue player to just risk you having EtW in hand in order to try and counter a tutor, buying them a lot of turns to win the game (as well as find more counters to disrupt your plan if you topdeck well).

I've run your most recent list quite a bit lately and I haven't been happy with EtW either. I've won games with EtW I couldn't have won with Tendrils (and vice versa when swapping one for the other), but overall I tend to want Tendrils much more frequently than EtW. Since I never make 20 Goblins, I have to combo, pass the turn, swing, pass the turn, swing. This leaves me vulnerable to sweepers (Terminus) and flat-out loses games if I'm sitting across from a lethal creature with evasion. I've had several awkward testing sessions where this happened (usually because I'm 1-2 mana short of IT->BW->Tendrils and can only go for IT->Empty)

For whatever it's worth, otherwise I like your list a lot. Probe has been amazing and the 12 lands has been surprisingly good (although I've definitely had to win with plenty of no-landers, which used to be much more rare). Gold lands are still awesome, I tried the list without them and it's basically unplayable.

[lambert101]

Just switch to tendrils in certain match-ups like miracles/stoneblade, sneak attack, reanimator, and so on.

[lochlan]

Just switch to tendrils in certain match-ups like miracles/stoneblade, sneak attack, reanimator, and so on.

Or just run it main deck so you don't lose game 1 to Terminus and have to win both post-board games versus a blue deck with Counterbalance. I like that plan better, your mileage may vary in your regional meta game.

[Pelikanudo]

Question:
it not too clear to me but with e. experiment, and once it is casted, which are the options of playing a shown e. expirement?

[thefringthing]

X is 0 if you cast Epic Experiment without paying its mana cost.

[Pelikanudo]

@All:
@Mainly B.Cook, Final Fortune, Bahamut, Edilin, Eneko Mendibe (if you're by there what's your nick?)

I just would like to share my thinkings about Abrupt Decay, and I'd like you to share yours.
By the moment I read that card I just thoutgh 4 in side, that's it, simple 4 as a must, that was my first though, because this cards MEANS that from now on counterbalance will be a bad card, you need guys need to agree with me on this. First point.

So at first I'd like to include 4 copies of this fantastic card in side, but next I though, that if this card really represents the decay of c.b. then, there will not be a need of including it because in midle, long terms people will stop to definately play c.b. Second Point.

So I will test 3-4 copies in side and lets a try, next when the meta will be more stable (means less cunterbalance) I'll likely will decrease the number. Third point.

I've been talking and the control deck that seems to be predominant will be as clear as BUG because the deck clearly gets the benefits of the card (both tempo and control version) Fourth point.

So assuming we'll include the card in side, In my personal build I don't need to change the land configuration -only 1 fetch and 8 rainbow, but the list will need to change accordingly to support the mana investment. 5th point
My reasons to play rainbow and no fetches were:
- in my meta there are tons of canadian -and they play stifle.
- need to cast sometimes double silence. and in one but rare scenario I needed.
- still wins to wastelands.
- Brainstorm is still good even with no fetches.

How will you tune the side wth that incredible card?
A thing to have in mind is that at least a bouncer or enchantment destruction is needed, so I'm thinking to delegate this role to burning into anything that destroys or bounces enchantments, so I'll save 1 space. (0 E.Truths) maybe 1 therapy -2nd space and don't know the 3rd.

I play definately IGG instead PiF.
Changed to -2 C.Therapy to +2 T.Seize, rest is the same as Post.

Well let me know your thinkings.

[Bahamuth]

I think I don't want to play 4 of these because drawing doubles is awful and we already have means to beat Counterbalance (discard or just winning). I'll be running 3 in my board along with a Tropical I think.

[Bryant Cook]

I'll try it over my E.Truths but I'm not even sure that it's better.

[Final Fortune]

I'm willing to let the presence of Abrupt Decay in the metagame kick Counterbalance out of the metagame for me and just concentrate on hating out Gaddok Teeg and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben with the most cost efficient answers possible. If it doesn't happen, then I'll resort to playing Abrupt Decay myself vs Counterbalance.dec

[Bryant Cook]

Just sleeved up TES in new perfect fits and sleeves for this weekend at SCG Invi Atlanta!

[lambert101]

Good luck

[r3dd09]

Just sleeved up TES in new perfect fits and sleeves for this weekend at SCG Invi Atlanta!

Best of luck, show them storm isn't dead.

[lemariont]

Hi Bryant, you mentioned in your first post, that Grapshot is best than pyroclasm or infest.

I tried the card in many games, but dont see how it function, and pyroclasm is good vs opposing tokens and thalias, gaddock, etc. (without mum protection)

Maybe you can explain in some examples when and how is good the Grapeshot.

Thank you very much...:frown:

And good luck in SCG..... your list is awesome...

[SaberTooth]

Good luck! i want to see you in the feature match area!

[Gaka]

Hi Bryant, you mentioned in your first post, that Grapshot is best than pyroclasm or infest.

I tried the card in many games, but dont see how it function, and pyroclasm is good vs opposing tokens and thalias, gaddock, etc. (without mum protection)

Maybe you can explain in some examples when and how is good the Grapeshot.

Thank you very much...:frown:

And good luck in SCG..... your list is awesome...

Tokens should not be your concern unless they happen to be lethal that turn. In which case spending a turn killing them sets you back even further against an opponent who is clearly putting pressure on you. Don't be that guy.

Against Thalia Grapeshot is a 3 mana kill for it, which you can reuse later with PiF or IGG, should you still use it. Hey, even DR. With an opposing Teeg, Grapeshot gets even better. You can theoretically combo out without teeg stopping you with grapeshot, and it also serves as a way to kill teeg and any other bears before you tendrils them.

Plus, there is also ole faithful grapeshot for 40 if you really want to showboat. This shouldn't be a valid reason, but some opponents honestly deserve it.

[akmalik]

The only real use of Grapeshot is to win with Tendrils/EtW + Grapeshot or to kill hatebears postboard. These situations are rare but there is no card, regarding the functionality, even close to Grapeshot.

At some point you're just out of the age to kill with storm 20+.

Still not sure if I should try out the new list. The old list with 15 lands and less Chrome Moxe just works too well ^^

[Pelikanudo]

Hi!, done some testing...

Having in main the base as same as post except:
+1 chrome mox , +1 Tendrils = -1 Empty, -1 Gitaxian
And Manabase:
4 City of brass
4 Gemstone
2 Underground
2 Undiscovered Paradise (Added +1 Undicovered Paradise, Before it was +1 Volcanic Island Instead) Reason For Edit

I've tuned the side as:
2 T.Seize
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Revoke Existence
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 IGG

The fact is that taking out the E.Truths can make loose match ups vs cards like Ivory Mask or like.
and from now on we have put up in +1 the E.Truths effects so that vs chalices and trinisphere can be ok still in second games, as the main target for b.wish will be Empty in firsts games, referring mainly to MUD or like match ups.

I came to the conclusion that therapy is ok, but I prefer still playing cards 100% effective in their role in TES, as once happened to me loosing because of not saying the ritgh card, so for me those slots can be t.seize and pyroblasts , the same is applicable for IoK. Also I don't want to be dependant on Gitaxian so therapy can be effective when siding, Ponder > Gitaxian is a reallity.

Also for me PiF were ok but certainly playing the deck I see the needs of speed more than reaching the late game for PiF. personal preference, anyway.

Another thing is that the No Fetches mana base is ok as in my meta there are tons of UGR and will appear UBG maybe with stifles that can ruin me the day, and as I said before, wasteland never was a problem for me even with 11 lands.

Please, let me know your thinkings,
- Is really neccessary anything to take out enchantments for 4 or more mana cost?
- can now shatering spree be replaced by any other more versatile card?
- 2, 3 or 4 which is the correct number for Abrupt Decay?
- What about the idea on Proper Manabase and No Fetch Plan vs UBG?

[Bryant Cook]

I finished the event at 19th in an incredibly tough field. My report should be in my next article.

Spoilers: I won two rounds off of the back of Grapeshot alone. Not showboating.

[egosum]

I ' ve been in ovine 8 this last weekend and played TES. For the main event I did a crappy 4-1-2 (losing to reanimator and Sneak show because he drew an excellent hand g3 Leyline of Sanctity + 2 FoW in the first 3 turns denying my 2 going off attempts, and drawing to Omnitell thanks to a last turn top deck of Burning wish into pyroclasm when on turns).

I also played the sunday side event (45-50 players), doing top 8 with the following version:

UBR TES

Main 60

2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Gemstone Mine
4x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire

3x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame

4x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

4x Duress
3x thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek

2x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony

Side 15

2x Engineered Explosive (Incredible against random hate: chalice and stuff, also against Maverick, you can play themm preemtively to GAddock, and U/W countertop)
2x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Extirpate
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Pyroclasm

The only thing I would change if had to play it again in this very same metagame is -1x IoK side deck for +1x Past in flames (just because PiF owns discard, which is rather hard, if paired with countermagic, let's say BUG/Esper Blade...). I'm not changing it for IGG because IGG gives some plays impossible to do with any other card in the universe of magic, plus it grants faster wins against non-blue decks.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Bryant Cook]

Report (http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/articles/2012/51765/cooks-kitchen-scg-invitational-atlanta-092112-19th-place)

[jandax]

I loved how legacy round three you sided into a 58 card deck.

Good report, learned a little about the TES matchups

[paeng4983]

I dont know how to do the link as what bryant has, but here's what happened to me at yesterday's legacy wars wherein we had it 6rds plus T8.

http://mtglegacy.freeforums.org/test-forum-1-f2.html

Gitaxian probes rock big time! They really gives you the right tempo you needed at the perfect time.

I was not expecting legendary creature base meta since I anticipated a UW miracle, RUG, UR and dredge. So instead of adopting in toto bryant's SB list in which it has karakas, I tweaked it to what I see it would help me against the meta here.

*cheers

[Bryant Cook]

Has anyone tested with Abrupt Decay yet?

[paeng4983]

Has anyone tested with Abrupt Decay yet?

I personally haven't tested this. But what I can see is that, instead of having what we normally have (1 wipeaway, 2 echoing, 1 krosan grip), TES can just have two of this Abrupt Decays (AD) as their replacement. AD being it uncounterable, is a house against counterbalances.

[KevinTrudeau]

Has anyone tested with Abrupt Decay yet?

I have, and have come to the initial conclusion that it joins the ranks of many other bounce spells as a suitable metagame choice, as opposed to a no-doubt catch-all inclusion. This is mostly due to the fact that casting anything above one can sometimes really suck versus Maverick; were Maverick not to be a huge metagame factor (as it was in the recent SCGI), Abrupt Decay would probably be the de facto bounce spell. This is of course assuming only running six gold lands will be sufficient enough to support it.

In addition, after extensive dabbling with the fetchland manabase, I'm back to playing gold lands and Silences; I would probably be playing gold lands regardless even if I didn't think once again that Cabal Therapy is a big pile of poop. Tropical Island is just a huge piece of shit. Island is also usually just a huge piece of shit. Note that I'm not saying they're shitty in a vacuum, but in the metagame and for this deck's goals, but of course, you already know that.

Also, try out Carpet of Flowers again in the sideboard, taking out the Chrome Moxen in the matchups where you want it, and see how it is. With all of these got dang Spell Pierce decks running around, combatting them with Sol Ring is usually pretty good, probably better than boarding in more discard. Tentative SB config then vs. Miracles would probably be -1 IT, -1 Probe, -1 Ponder, +3 Abrupt Decay, and -3 Chrome Mox, +3 Carpet of Flowers, assuming Carpet turns out to be good enough. This would leave you with nine other slots, which could all be Wish targets (your current seven with the fourth Duress in place of Therapy plus Ill-Gotten Gains and a second Tendrils to board in to make PiF loops, IGGy loops, and a multitude of other lines you already know about available while maintaining it being Wishable), or your current seven Wish targets with Duress in place of Therapy and two free slots, like 2 Xantid Swarm, 2 Karakas, 2 additional discard spells, 2 additional Chants, etc., if both having IGG and the ability to have a Tendrils in the sideboard when you wish to board it in/boarding in Tendrils at all proves to be futile. Also try out in the maindeck -2 Silence, +2 Thoughtseize (it makes it so the 2 potential flex slots would for sure be coming in for less-than-stellar cards in the Maverick and Force of Will combo matchups, keeping the disruption count at seven which might be the optimal number, and also has more general applications), although I'm less positive about that than the possible inclusion of Carpet of Flowers since I don't know if seven is the optimal number of disruption slots regardless of matchup, in addition to the life loss from Thoughtseize, which can really suck in a deck with four Gitaxian Probe.

[Final Fortune]

+1 for Carpet of Flowers, I played it in Belcher and preferred it to Xantid Swarm in RUG based meta games because it's more or less pseudo disruption vs Spell Pierce, Daze and Flusterstorm and it's acceleration when the opponent isn't holding a counter(s). Now with Gitaxian Probe, you can more effectively leverage it here as "protection" as soon as you know they aren't holding Force of Will, so it's definitely worth revisiting in TES.

Pretty much agreed with the Golden Land manabase, I'm still on 8 Gold Lands, 3 Underground Sea and 4 Chrome Mox myself, you just need to be able to cast Silence in a deck playing with Diminishing Returns.

I haven't been impressed with Abrupt Decay, I think it suffers from the "2cc removal spell" syndrome where it's too mana inefficient vs Maverick and not necessarily better than SBing in more discard vs. Counterbalance.

[Matt]

Seems good against Merfolk too... But, Miracles, and to a lesser extent Esper-blade, is what I'm out to beat, atm anyways.

[Bryant Cook]

Played the stock list at a local tonight defeating Burn, BUG Control, Goblins (Two turn one kills), and UW Stoneblade. Then lost in the playoffs to a mulligan to four against Maverick game one. Game two may have been on me, but I would probably keep my hand again.

Karakas
Echoing Truth
Gitaxian Probe
Lion's Eye Diamond
Dark Ritual
Rite of Flame
City of Brass
Underground Sea

Probe blanked, I drew a Ponder a few turns later that didn't find anything and I eventually lost.

[Lejay]

He said he lost game one.

[lambert101]

Anyone get any testing with abrupt decay yet? So far I am still sticking with echoing truth as of now.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm going to this week, I just need to figure out the new sideboard. I'm running through a few options.

1.) Cut both Echoing Truth for two Echoing Decay.
2.) Cut both Xantid Swarm for two Echoing Decay, then cut an Echoing Truth for something?
3.) Cut a Karakas and an Echoing Truth for two Echoing Decay.

Part of me wants to keep an Echoing Truth for people who play Leyline of Sanctity. I could just be too attached to Echoing Truth. I'm leaning toward option two, but I'm unsure of what I want something to be. Possibly the forth Cabal Therapy?

[lambert101]

Bryant,
I like your option 2. Cutting the swarms for decay and if you add the fourth therapy, you could possibly have 6 discard post-board against show and tell.dec with the seventh in the board. I don't know if you want to rework boarding plans against show and tell.dec. Keeping in probes obviously helps therapy. I feel hitting show and tell buys time till you can fight through counter spells.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant,
I like your option 2. Cutting the swarms for decay and if you add the fourth therapy, you could possibly have 6 discard post-board against show and tell.dec with the seventh in the board. I don't know if you want to rework boarding plans against show and tell.dec. Keeping in probes obviously helps therapy. I feel hitting show and tell buys time till you can fight through counter spells.

I would probably put the fourth Duress in before the fourth Therapy.

[lambert101]

I like that idea better for against the control match-ups.

[Pelikanudo]

Help, done some testings.
My tuned lists is as:

3 A.Decay
2 T.Seize
2 Xantid (The nuts vs Show And Tell and Reanimator Still toguh match ups)
2 Karakas (Same as Xantid AND vs MAverick)
1 Revoke Existence (Shame instead of Shattering Spree, although thnaks to 3 Decay seems better vs MUD or likes BUT we need answer to Leylines)
1 PiF (I'm still not sure about this and IGG)
1 Diminishing
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty
1 Tendrils

Side Strategies Tested:
My list as reference:
_Is same as Post except:
_ManaBase: 8 Rainbowlands, 2 Uderground sea, 2 undiscovered p.,
_- 1 Empty, - 1Gitaxian = +1 C.Moxen, +1 Tendrils

vs Miracles:
I'll go Into:
-3 Gitaxian
-1 C. Moxen
-1 I.Tutor
=
+2T.Seize
+3Abrupt Decay

vs Maverick:
-4Duress, -3 Silence
=
+2Karakas+2T.Seize+3AbruptDecay

vs MUD:
-4Silence
=
+3A.Decay
+1T.Seize

Rest is the same,
vs Team America I dont expect to bring in them also.

A Point I want to me it clear:
In my opinion Therapyes, once tested don't seem to be so good on the paper, I mean in their role it is absolutly better T.Seize, and you need Gitaxian to make them better or at least not useless..., even when you need to take cards out in second games, gitaxian is alwyas the first card to side out, and then again is counterintuitive put in aditional therepays...
I definately avoided it,
we need to avoid scenarios like:
Turn one and we start, hand with therapy, no gitaxian and is second game vs miracles, in this case T.Seize is fundamental better than therapy.
The idea of taking out several copies of 1 single card does not worth it OR is not comparable with the Trade Off VS 1. loosing 2 life. 2. More security when siding out Gitaxian. 3.Always take out the card.


More/less same thinkings?
Agree anybody?
If don't agree let me know why.

I have a specific question to Bryant and is:
Is there any reason to side out -1 I.Tutor instead (-1 Ponder OR -1Gitaxian) when facing decks like (ShowAndTell AND Reanimator) OR (Miracles AND RUG AND Tempo)

[Bryant Cook]

Lists of things we disagree on that you post repeatedly.

While my caption for your post shows how I feel, you opened up my eyes to something.

Shattering Spree is not a sacred cow. I'm going to opt to run Hull Breach instead. If you're casting either Hull Breach or Revoke Existence, there's probably a good chance there's red mana floating from Rite of Flames meaning that the green or white mana could be either or.

My current sideboard is:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Karakas
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Hull Breach
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

[Final Fortune]

I'm not a fan of MD Cabal Therapies either, because it limits your ability to SB out Gitaxian Probes, and in the event you don't have a Gitaxian Probe or Duress then Cabal Therapy is too unreliable compared to Thought Seize, Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek.

The mana cost of Hull Breach is worse than the mana cost of Revoke Existence, so I'm not certain why you'd choose to play Hull Breach instead, and furthermore I'm not certain which Enchantments you'd need to remove over artifacts in order to choose less efficient artifact removal at all? Removing Countebalance is a pipe dream, so did Leyline of Sanctity and not being able to Tendrils of Agony become a thing again or something?

Carpet of Flowers has been a really good suggestion from what I've seen, a surprising number of people Spell Pierce and Daze it so it's like a pseudo disruption card. Not sure if it's the best choice, but it's certainly viable.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm not a fan of MD Cabal Therapies either, because it limits your ability to SB out Gitaxian Probes, and in the event you don't have a Gitaxian Probe or Duress then Cabal Therapy is too unreliable compared to Thought Seize, Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek.

The mana cost of Hull Breach is worse than the mana cost of Revoke Existence, so I'm not certain why you'd choose to play Hull Breach instead, and furthermore I'm not certain which Enchantments you'd need to remove over artifacts in order to choose less efficient artifact removal at all? Removing Countebalance is a pipe dream, so did Leyline of Sanctity and not being able to Tendrils of Agony become a thing again or something?

Carpet of Flowers has been a really good suggestion from what I've seen, a surprising number of people Spell Pierce and Daze it so it's like a pseudo disruption card. Not sure if it's the best choice, but it's certainly viable.

Who's main decking Cabal Therapy? I'm running them in my sideboard, also it's fine to side out a Gitaxian Probe, just minimize it to that.

Did you not read my post above? Yes, people play Leyline sometimes. I refuse to be cold to that card, which is why I'm running Hull Breach.

Intelligent players can win around Carpet of Flowers, I've seen it happen too many times. I certainly won't be playing it.

[Final Fortune]

Who's main decking Cabal Therapy? I'm running them in my sideboard, also it's fine to side out a Gitaxian Probe, just minimize it to that.

Did you not read my post above? Yes, people play Leyline sometimes. I refuse to be cold to that card, which is why I'm running Hull Breach.

Intelligent players can win around Carpet of Flowers, I've seen it happen too many times. I certainly won't be playing it.

Sorry, I meant MDing them as in playing them in your 60 post-board, I don't think the card is reliable enough in TES compared to ANT as a card in your 60 and I would't play it as anything other than as a wish target because of it.

What deck is playing Leyline of Sanctity that you can't beat by playing Empty the Warrens against, or is the problem before you resolve your win condition and not being able to target them with your disruption spells? I'm not saying it's bad to play enchantment removal by any means, I always liked Simplify personally, I just haven't seen any enchantments other than Counterbalance that I feel I need to remove or can't win around. Are they playing Leyline of Santity in Show&Tell SBs again?

Eh, Carpet of Lowers isn't dead in the RUG match up compared to Xantid Swarm, which is why I like it in theory. I guess I'll have to wait until I run into those Carpet of Flowers only hands before I cut it for something else, but the mana production and soft counter it provides with being able to check out the opponent's hand reliably makes it better than it has been before IMO.

[Bryant Cook]

Sorry, I meant MDing them as in playing them in your 60 post-board, I don't think the card is reliable enough in TES compared to ANT as a card in your 60 and I would't play it as anything other than as a wish target because of it. There's Duress and Gitaxian Probes post board for information. Not to mention, most of the time you're only sideboarding in two. In the Scenarios that you're bringing in all three, you've sided out dead spells like Silence in those types of match-ups. I think it's great.


What deck is playing Leyline of Sanctity that you can't beat by playing Empty the Warrens against, or is the problem before you resolve your win condition and not being able to target them with your disruption spells? I'm not saying it's bad to play enchantment removal by any means, I always liked Simplify personally, I just haven't seen any enchantments other than Counterbalance that I feel I need to remove or can't win around. Are they playing Leyline of Santity in Show&Tell SBs again? I've had it come down against me from UW Miracles/Stoneblade, Hivemind, and Show & Tell decks. I want an answer to it, if it means swapping out Shattering Spree - it's worth it. I don't understand how Simplify is any better than Hull Breach. If you've resolved Burning Wish against counterbalance, the chances are they didn't have a two on top of their deck. Also, Hull Breach hits more things. Empty the Warrens won't always get you there against decks that also pack Terminus, but there aren't too many people doing this. It could just be a local thing.


Eh, Carpet of Lowers isn't dead in the RUG match up compared to Xantid Swarm, which is why I like it in theory. I guess I'll have to wait until I run into those Carpet of Flowers only hands before I cut it for something else, but the mana production and soft counter it provides with being able to check out the opponent's hand reliably makes it better than it has been before IMO.

Xantid Swarm isn't for that match-up, that's where the sideboard Cabal Therapies come in. But if I remember correctly you just run four Xantid instead. That could be your own fault. I've watched too many games where people have Carpet in play and lose the game for a few reasons.

1.) It doesn't beat Force of Will.
2.) The opponent isn't stupid.

A smart player will sit on fetchlands or return their Islands to their lands with Daze after laying a Delver or Goyf.

[Final Fortune]

Simplify isn't any better than Hullbreach, it's just more mana efficient than Hullbreach and depends on whether or not you're willing to run more SB slots for either two 1 mana answers or one 2 mana answer.

Yeah, I get you have roughly the same number of enablers for TES as ANT, but I usually find Cabal Therapy over Thought Seize etc. lets you down at the worst possible moments. Needing 1 of 7 of those other cards, especially in the case of Duress where the Cabal Therpay is potentially over kill, just lets one more thing go wrong and unlike ANT you really don't have the cantrip and manabase to build up over time where Cabal Therapy is really good vs a fully sculpted hand.

That's just been my experience with the card.

[KevinTrudeau]

There's Duress and Gitaxian Probes post board for information. Not to mention, most of the time you're only sideboarding in two. In the Scenarios that you're bringing in all three, you've sided out dead spells like Silence in those types of match-ups. I think it's great.

I've had it come down against me from UW Miracles/Stoneblade, Hivemind, and Show & Tell decks. I want an answer to it, if it means swapping out Shattering Spree - it's worth it. I don't understand how Simplify is any better than Hull Breach. If you've resolved Burning Wish against counterbalance, the chances are they didn't have a two on top of their deck. Also, Hull Breach hits more things. Empty the Warrens won't always get you there against decks that also pack Terminus, but there aren't too many people doing this. It could just be a local thing.



Xantid Swarm isn't for that match-up, that's where the sideboard Cabal Therapies come in. But if I remember correctly you just run four Xantid instead. That could be your own fault. I've watched too many games where people have Carpet in play and lose the game for a few reasons.

1.) It doesn't beat Force of Will.
2.) The opponent isn't stupid.

A smart player will sit on fetchlands or return their Islands to their lands with Daze after laying a Delver or Goyf.


Dude do you fuckiong realize what your are sayiong? I might be very inebriated right now, but godddamn, they are fucking expending their goddamn Daze right then and there, fucking Carpett is a fuckinbg disruption sopell. Yes. Just fucking try it out again, it might be tioo narrow to play, but serously, i guranateee the optimal list veruss Canadian Thresh (known for some fucking resion as RUG deliver for some reason), runs Cartpet if Flowers, and if that's the most popular deck... I think you know where I'm getting at. Also, where it's colored Col Ring against Candian, or Mox Diamonfd at worst, it's fucking Gilded Lotus for one against UW C/B. Fucking Gilded Lpotus. Just tryo it out. It might not end up being the shit, but still, actually physially play it in matches right now, and see. Yes, I know Stilfe can targfet it. Yes, I know that the oppoentne can playt around it. But alll of those lines are detrimental, slightly, to the opponent. Just try it out, trust me.

[Asthereal]

This is Bryant you're talking to. He fucking invented the deck. :cool:
(And has been playing it like forever.)

Wish board means limited sideboard space.
We need disruption, so Carpets are unlikely to fit in the board.
I tried and it cost me other matchups because I couldn't fit answers to them.
Yes, versus Canadian Thresh the Carpets are killing.
But against other blue matchups that use more hard counters we need real protection.
And we don't want to ignore Maverick either.

[Pelikanudo]

I'm not a fan of MD Cabal Therapies either, because it limits your ability to SB out Gitaxian Probes, and in the event you don't have a Gitaxian Probe or Duress then Cabal Therapy is too unreliable compared to Thought Seize, Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek.

The mana cost of Hull Breach is worse than the mana cost of Revoke Existence, so I'm not certain why you'd choose to play Hull Breach instead, and furthermore I'm not certain which Enchantments you'd need to remove over artifacts in order to choose less efficient artifact removal at all? Removing Countebalance is a pipe dream, so did Leyline of Sanctity and not being able to Tendrils of Agony become a thing again or something?

Carpet of Flowers has been a really good suggestion from what I've seen, a surprising number of people Spell Pierce and Daze it so it's like a pseudo disruption card. Not sure if it's the best choice, but it's certainly viable.

I agree on revoke Existence > Hull Breach,
Simply Revoke Existence is easier to cast and the counterpart VS Hull Breach does not worth it.

Carpet Of Flowers is good, but I do not see space in the side, prefer other cards, I used it a lot however in DDFT in 5 color build, in here it really shines.

Also and again, T.Seize will be for me always good, I understand playing Empty Main can make Therapy better, but I don't play ETW main. Same thoutghs.

I made a question to Bryant , please let me know:
Is there any reason to side out -1 I.Tutor instead (-1 Ponder OR -1 Gitaxian) when facing decks like (ShowAndTell AND Reanimator) OR (Miracles AND RUG AND Tempo)
I mean, why or which are the reasons to sometimes side out 1 I.tutor n sometimes 1 Ponder, I see that in match ups like ShowAndTell OR Reanimate that is the strategy but in Miracles or RUG that is not the CardsToSideOut.
Let me know.


Question:
Playing 3 Therapies/T.Seize and 2 A.Decay OR 2 Therapies/T.Seize and 3 A.Decay,
I feel that I want to play 3 A.Decay, and they've been great in testing, they are used in some many roles...

[Bryant Cook]

Dude do you fuckiong realize what your are sayiong? I might be very inebriated right now, but godddamn, they are fucking expending their goddamn Daze right then and there, fucking Carpett is a fuckinbg disruption sopell. Yes. Just fucking try it out again, it might be tioo narrow to play, but serously, i guranateee the optimal list veruss Canadian Thresh (known for some fucking resion as RUG deliver for some reason), runs Cartpet if Flowers, and if that's the most popular deck... I think you know where I'm getting at. Also, where it's colored Col Ring against Candian, or Mox Diamonfd at worst, it's fucking Gilded Lotus for one against UW C/B. Fucking Gilded Lpotus. Just tryo it out. It might not end up being the shit, but still, actually physially play it in matches right now, and see. Yes, I know Stilfe can targfet it. Yes, I know that the oppoentne can playt around it. But alll of those lines are detrimental, slightly, to the opponent. Just try it out, trust me.

I remember my first beer.


I agree on revoke Existence > Hull Breach,
Simply Revoke Existence is easier to cast and the counterpart VS Hull Breach does not worth it.

Carpet Of Flowers is good, but I do not see space in the side, prefer other cards, I used it a lot however in DDFT in 5 color build, in here it really shines.

Also and again, T.Seize will be for me always good, I understand playing Empty Main can make Therapy better, but I don't play ETW main. Same thoutghs.

I made a question to Bryant , please let me know:
Is there any reason to side out -1 I.Tutor instead (-1 Ponder OR -1 Gitaxian) when facing decks like (ShowAndTell AND Reanimator) OR (Miracles AND RUG AND Tempo)
I mean, why or which are the reasons to sometimes side out 1 I.tutor n sometimes 1 Ponder, I see that in match ups like ShowAndTell OR Reanimate that is the strategy but in Miracles or RUG that is not the CardsToSideOut.
Let me know.


Question:
Playing 3 Therapies/T.Seize and 2 A.Decay OR 2 Therapies/T.Seize and 3 A.Decay,
I feel that I want to play 3 A.Decay, and they've been great in testing, they are used in some many roles...

Revoke isn't actually any easier to cast, which was my point - but do as you will.

The difference between siding out Tutor versus Ponder is to smooth out draws. That's it. If you're siding one over another you probably won't notice the difference.

If you want to play Thoughtseize and Probe without Empty the Warrens as an option that doesn't require lifeloss, good luck. I'm really sick of repeating myself to you dude, I post the same shit when you ask for advice, you ignore it, then continue to ask for help. I won't be responding to any more of these posts.

[Gaka]

I remember my first beer.


:cool:



Revoke isn't actually any easier to cast, which was my point - but do as you will.


This. They are virtually identical when casting, the one colorless could just as well be red mana from one of your rocks or rite of flame. The white is coming from the same source (5c lands, petals) until post board when you have access to extra white from karakas, I guess.

Hull Breach is RG, you're going to be generating R, considering you're casting wish anyways, and you'd likely have extra somewhere. The biggest difference is that Hull Breach can hit two targets, and Revoke only hits one, but exiles it. Hull Breach can also be Blue Blasted; I understand RUG sometimes has one and likes to bring it in sometimes.

In any case, I'm currently sticking with Shattering Spree - I've tested the other options but prefer being able to deal with chalice at one if I really need to. I blame the stax players, and the lack of decent enchantment targets for the local metagame.

[sherko7]

Hi guys. I'm planning to pick this deck up soon, as I already have the LEDs in my Dredge. Was wondering, with 12 land lists would it be OK to run something like this?

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard

I am a bit hesitant to pick up the U. Seas at they're slightly above my budget for this deck. Any suggestions? I do realize of course that the fetchlands are there to work in tandem with Brainstorm, but playing Watery Grave and Steam Vents can be a bit of a headache when resolving Ad Nauseum, no?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Grozoth, Hunting Pack and Slithermuse.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Hi guys. I'm planning to pick this deck up soon, as I already have the LEDs in my Dredge. Was wondering, with 12 land lists would it be OK to run something like this?

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard

I am a bit hesitant to pick up the U. Seas at they're slightly above my budget for this deck. Any suggestions? I do realize of course that the fetchlands are there to work in tandem with Brainstorm, but playing Watery Grave and Steam Vents can be a bit of a headache when resolving Ad Nauseum, no?

Watery Grave or additional City of Brass are the only permissible solutions to budget problems.

But they're both bad.

So.

Just bite the bullet and get the Underground Seas.

[Bryant Cook]

This. They are virtually identical when casting, the one colorless could just as well be red mana from one of your rocks or rite of flame. The white is coming from the same source (5c lands, petals) until post board when you have access to extra white from karakas, I guess.

Hull Breach is RG, you're going to be generating R, considering you're casting wish anyways, and you'd likely have extra somewhere. The biggest difference is that Hull Breach can hit two targets, and Revoke only hits one, but exiles it. Hull Breach can also be Blue Blasted; I understand RUG sometimes has one and likes to bring it in sometimes.

In any case, I'm currently sticking with Shattering Spree - I've tested the other options but prefer being able to deal with chalice at one if I really need to. I blame the stax players, and the lack of decent enchantment targets for the local metagame.

I wouldn't worry about blue blast, you would first have to resolve Burning Wish through it for them to then counter spell the Hull Breach. Not to mention, it's just not that popular of a card. What does RUG even have that we would want to blow up?

Hull Breach still blows up Chalice, but now there's Decay as well.


Hi guys. I'm planning to pick this deck up soon, as I already have the LEDs in my Dredge. Was wondering, with 12 land lists would it be OK to run something like this?

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard

I am a bit hesitant to pick up the U. Seas at they're slightly above my budget for this deck. Any suggestions? I do realize of course that the fetchlands are there to work in tandem with Brainstorm, but playing Watery Grave and Steam Vents can be a bit of a headache when resolving Ad Nauseum, no?

I would run Shocklands before I ran Orchard. I would take a look at Undiscovered Paradise, but I think shocks and fetches are the proper things for you. Those tokens will deal you more damage over two turns that the lands, that and you're creating blockers for your own Empty the Warrens. Counter intuitive.

[sherko7]

I wouldn't worry about blue blast, you would first have to resolve Burning Wish through it for them to then counter spell the Hull Breach. Not to mention, it's just not that popular of a card. What does RUG even have that we would want to blow up?

Hull Breach still blows up Chalice, but now there's Decay as well.



I would run Shocklands before I ran Orchard. I would take a look at Undiscovered Paradise, but I think shocks and fetches are the proper things for you. Those tokens will deal you more damage over two turns that the lands, that and you're creating blockers for your own Empty the Warrens. Counter intuitive.

Shocks it is for me then :) I do have Undiscovered Paradise though, so I'd probably try those out as well. I'll be "biting the bullet" and getting the U. Seas much much later. :laugh:

[Telperion]

SCG Cinci fail report:

I had been testing Krosan Grip with some success in the two weeks prior to SCG Cinci, but obviously three drops are terrible with Ad Nauseum. I was mainly gunning for beating miracles and consequently, it seems it made my tempo matchups worse. In testing the night before against miracles, I found two things to be very true for game one. An opening hand duress or naturally drawn Ad Nauseum usually let me win game 1. Secondly, I have been increasingly unhappy with probe for two reasons. First, if I'm fine with losing two life, I feel like I should be playing good cards like thoughtseize. Secondly, it makes keeping hands such a crap shoot. TES is mostly mana and a few business spells, and you can never count on probe to get you there. In small weekly events I had been going -1 probe/ponder + bayou and had a much better time with good green sideboard cards.

You never really know how effectively a few card changes are, but it seemed good enough. I had thus settled on something similar to the standard list with -2 GP + Bayou +1 Duress. In the morning I said fuck it, and pulled the last two probes and altered the sideboard to look like this.

Decklist:
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Silence
4 Duress
2 Ad Nauseam

SB
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Reverent Silence

Things to note: +2 lands + 1 duress + 1 Ad Nauseum +1 Chrome Mox, no win condition main deck. Very narrow sideboard. REVERENT SILENCE. Therapy sucks without probe.

Round 1: Esper Stoneblade
G1: Keep a hand with two lands, duress, ponder and acceleration. I get inquisition and lose ponder. I draw acceleration and duress, seeing a hand of SFM, StP, lands, and brainstorm. Take the blue card. I proceed to top deck mana for 5 or so turns and eventually SFM + vclique + karakas stop anything from happening.

G2: I board -2 silence + 2 xantid swarm. First turn swarm it resolves and my opponent slumps having obviously boarded out removal. Similarly to last game we trade discard. Despite getting 2x LED and having live xantid all game, I don't get there.

Round 2: Enchantress
G1: I live the dream and turn two wish for Reverent Silence. I wipe his board third turn and ad nauseum.

G2: I bring in decays for silences. All I remember is decaying a stony silence, then decaying a Teeg, then decaying a choke. Ad Nauseum gets there after untapping.

Round 3: UWR Miracles
G1: I'm on the play. I duress and take fow leaving him with counterbalance and brainstorm. He goes land go. I ponder and find Burning Wish. He topdecks Counterbalance and slams it. I topdeck ad nauseum to go with 2x dark ritual in hand. I play a third land and run burning wish out. He blind reveals a 3 and the wish resolves. I get Reverent Silence. He gains 6 life and I Ad Nauseum and tendrils him.

G2: +2 Xantid + 3 decay, -2 silence - ponder -infernal tutor - something else
He puts a top out. I play a xantid that resolves. We play draw go for a while. Eventually I decay a counterbalance, untap, swing with xantid, no response, win.

Round 4: RUG Delver

G1: I open a sick hand with 2x LED, IT, Duress, 2 lands, ponder. He wins the roll and has first turn delver. I duress and he dazes. Delver flips. We play and land go and both ponder. Eventually here is the board state.
Him: 1 Untapped Volcanic 1 Untapped Trop flipped Delver. 6 cards in hand.
Me: Untapped Volc Untapped Sea Chrome mox (imprint silence)
hand: 3 LED, IT, Silence, Duress, Lotus Petal

I obviously go for it. First I lead with LED and he force pitching fire/ice. How can I lose? Then 2x LED, LP resolve. Then duress, forced O_O. Two cards left. Silence? maindeck Flusterstorm. I go all in on tutor. Second maindeck Flusterstorm.

G2: -1 Chrome mox + 1 ETW
I empty turn 4 for 14 goblins when he has a board of goyf, goose, flipped delver. He has the burn to race me.

Round 5: UW? Miracles
Very similar to round 3. I jam the Reverent Silence taking down a counterbalance. I get to go off before he lands another.

G2: Decay eot, then win. 4-0 vs miracles so far.

Round 5: RUG delver (the guy who eventually gets 2nd place
G1: He has triple force blue card when I go all in on turn 3.
G2: I empty for 12 Goblins out of desperation against a board of goyf/goose/delver. He has untaps and drops double lavamancer. He races me... I could have won if I had Grapeshot in the sideboard.

Round 6: BUG Delver
G1: I mulligan. I duress and see thoughtseize, daze, stifle, brainstorm, goyf, lands. I take thoughtseize as my hand is like 4 mana sources and tutor. I can't fetch on my next turn because stifle is up so I just pass. We eventually play draw go and trade some discard and wasteland, I get to fetch etc. At 14 and facing a 4/5 goyf I decide to go for it knowing his hand is daze/stifle/x. I have mana to pay for daze and am hoping to get a nice ad naseum (remember 4x chrome mox). I go all on in with tutor/LEDs and his last card is spell snare.

G2: I saw ghastly demise and decay game 1, I decide to chance try to blow him out with xantid swarm. I figure he will have less then 3 answers to it if it resolves, so I guess just make him have it. I have a ridiculous had with 2 lands, 2xled, swarm, IT, ponder. I open with fetch, bayou, swarm. Resolves. 2x LED? Resolves. He wastes me and passes. I drop a land a ponder. Hoping for a petal or something, I draw a land after a shuffle. Waste again. Land go. He inquisitions my Tutor. Despite having swarm up from turn 1, with 2x LED. I never get there before 2x goyf kills me. FML

0-2 Zombies
0-2 Dredge. I have to mull both games and he has breakthrough.


So overall, Decay and Reverent Silence were awesome. I like that I can answer Lodestone/Leyline of Sanctity with BW. Decay was insane but I'm not sure the mana base can be stable and reliably fast. I definitely support bayou as it can duress/ritual and cast sweet green sideboard cards reliably. How can we fight both delver and counterbalance? I wish the show and tell decks were not so boring.

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant:

My question is about:
Why you take out 1 I.T. in match ups like Renimator OR ShowAndTell and
vs MatchUps like RUG OR Miracles you take out Ponder.

The other question was about the number of Therapys and A.Decay as I think that these numbers should be paired. Regarding to this I play T.Seize, that's my decision and I'm not asking advice about this, for me it is clear to play T.Seize or whatever thing instead Therapy, I exposed my arguments which can be accepted or not. I asked advice about the numbers.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

[QUOTE=Pelikanudo;678894@Bryant:

My question is about:
Why you take out 1 I.T. in match ups like Renimator OR ShowAndTell and
vs MatchUps like RUG OR Miracles you take out Ponder.

The other question was about the number of Therapys and A.Decay as I think that these numbers should be paired. Regarding to this I play T.Seize, that's my decision and I'm not asking advice about this, for me it is clear to play T.Seize or whatever thing instead Therapy, I exposed my arguments which can be accepted or not. I asked advice about the numbers.[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure the first question has been beaten to death in the last four TES threads. Board out Infernal Tutor against decks playing Surgical Extraction. It also opens up Burning Wish >> Infernal Tutor >> Win Condition. Sometimes it's just preference. You can usually board out three random combinations of Infernal Tutor, Probe, Ponder or Chrome Mox and still be fine.

The correct number of Thoughtseize is zero.

[Final Fortune]

Shocks it is for me then :) I do have Undiscovered Paradise though, so I'd probably try those out as well. I'll be "biting the bullet" and getting the U. Seas much much later. :laugh:

Wasn't there a dual land cycle where the only drawback was that the dual land came into play tapped if you already controlled 3 or more lands? Because if you're playing the full set of City of Brass and Gemstone Mine, I think you could probably cut your fetchlands and just use those pseudo dual lands at like 11 land count or so and not notice much of a difference from Undergournd Sea.

[Machahiko]

Or think of what good dual lands come into play untapped. How about, darkslick shores? Kinda pissed that I sold my karakas' and can't afford to get any extras now, on the other hand though, I haven't been playing at all in a long long time.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Or think of what good dual lands come into play untapped. How about, darkslick shores? Kinda pissed that I sold my karakas' and can't afford to get any extras now, on the other hand though, I haven't been playing at all in a long long time.

You can't fetch for Darkslick Shores.

[Final Fortune]

You can't fetch for Darkslick Shores.

You don't necessarily need to play Fetchlands, a full set of gold lands and Darkslick Shores is probably a passable manabase on a budget.

[Rekk]

You don't necessarily need to play Fetchlands, a full set of gold lands and Darkslick Shores is probably a passable manabase on a budget.

you'd proooobabbly have to cut brainstorms for preordains if your only shuffle is ponder

[Bryant Cook]

Darkslick Shores are a fine replacement but it's still not ideal. Not having the shuffle effect will cost you some games.

I ended up playing T.E.S. for a second week in a row at our local event because I'm preparing for Providence this weekend. I ended up winning the event, I was never in a situation where I was forced to use the Artifact/Enchantment hate spell. I did use Abrupt Decay twice but neither time on a counterbalance.

I did have an awesome situation against Reanimator. I played a Xantid Swarm, he cast Force of Will. He then Entombed on my end step, untapped and played Exhume. I put Xantid into play then on my turn won the game. The other game I won, Karakas was MVP buying me several turns until I was ready to win the game.

[Final Fortune]

you'd proooobabbly have to cut brainstorms for preordains if your only shuffle is ponder

No, that'd be awful, contrary to popular belief Brainstorm is still good without Fetchlands.

[cuthbertthecat]

I did have an awesome situation against Reanimator. I played a Xantid Swarm, he cast Force of Will. He then Entombed on my end step, untapped and played Exhume. I put Xantid into play then on my turn won the game. The other game I won, Karakas was MVP buying me several turns until I was ready to win the game.

JUSTICE!

Also, I'm not sure if reanimator can beat Karakas out of this deck. It's beautiful.

[Dark Ritual]

JUSTICE!

Also, I'm not sure if reanimator can beat Karakas out of this deck. It's beautiful.

I don't think they can beat karakas out of storm combo. I know when I was playing doomsday once and I had the one of karakas in the 75 I boarded it in and put it in my doomsday pile. The guy got 2 legends out, elesh norn and jin or something and swung and I karakas'ed him out. Delayed shelldock isle into emrakul for a turn but I got there due to him paying 5+ life or more throughout the entire game through fetches, thoughtseize, force, maybe a reanimate.

Love exhuming xantid swarm. That is just plain awesome against a reanimator player. I'm of the opinion that he punted that to you by casting exhume instead of waiting, although he probably thought griselbrand would just win him the game. Turns out that isn't true :cool:

Brainstorm without fetchlands is basically going all-in typically. Because if you DON'T find what you need and you don't have a shuffle effect then you're double time walking yourself. I typically hate playing brainstorm when I don't have a shuffle effect available as it can literally lose the game for me.

Darkslick shores is a fine budget replacement though at 2 dollars versus 100+ dollars. Still infinitely prefer fetchlands in here due to brainstorm though and the deck thinning is slightly relevant. Only downside is stifle and that's it. Although if they aren't stifling fetchlands they could be stifling tendrils or EtW potentially.

[Deviruchi]

I tested the newest list and figured out almost the same sb (-1 Hull Breach / +1 Revoke Existance). Sideboard is not perfect because it still needs Echoing Truth. Leyline of the Sanctity is played in my metagame not because it is a bad card or I have bad players around me but because storm players are so happy about Abrupt Decay that they are now almost throwing a game vs Leyline. Next level thinking. During next tournament maybe I will try -1 Revoke Existance +1 Echoing Truth / Shattering Spree. One way I'm better positioned vs Leyline, other way vs Chalice. I think that making only one Kakakas / Swarm / Decay in the SB will hurt me more than Leyline / Chalice debate.

@Exhume story: nice. Hope I will encounter that kind of situation but I doubt it.

@BS without fetchland: I don't like the statement that you can't BS without fetchland. Sometimes you just have to cast it to have a chance in a game. It's not an all-in situation. I just rationally count when I should expect a fetchland, what is the situation on board and should I wait or am I forced to find "something". This feeling "play BS now or you are screwed" is more and more present when I play, I would like to think it is because I have played mainly storm decks for so long.

@EtW maindeck: I'm not very happy with that but sometimes "I just win with it" and it is hard to abandon that line of play. There were already few moments when I was angry that it is not 2nd Ad Nauseam. But also what Bryant wrote it is so nice to see your mana being countered.

[sherko7]

You don't necessarily need to play Fetchlands, a full set of gold lands and Darkslick Shores is probably a passable manabase on a budget.

Darkslick Shores to the rescue then! Will try that out :)

[ReinVos]

Don't forget Infernal Tutor shuffles too. If you have multiple tutors you can use one to get an extra Ritual or LED and shuffle after Brainstorming.

It's sub-optimal, just like using a Ponder to shuffle away Brainstorm garbage is sub-optimal, but when times get rough, there's at least 8 cards that can shuffle the deck if it's really needed and another Brainstorm a turn later allows you to look at two new cards.

Fetchlands makes Brainstorm much better but it's not like you can't get out of bad Brainstorms without them in this deck.

[Mojeh]

Darkslick Shores seems a fine replacement, but in a 13 land build, what would be the 13th land?

[kwis]

I probably missed it somewhere in the 45 pages of this thread but why did you go to 4 silence over chant?

I assume it has something to do with misdirection/divert or the opponent not being a legal target through some means.

[thefringthing]

I probably missed it somewhere in the 45 pages of this thread but why did you go to 4 silence over chant? I assume it has something to do with misdirection/divert or the opponent not being a legal target through some means.You got it. There's also a (very unlikely) situation where you want to Infernal Tutor for a second Silence but the ones left in your deck are Chants or vice versa. The trade off is that you're more vulnerable to Meddling Mage effects.

[tsoatt]

Came in 22nd at the Providence legacy open with this list:

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
4 Silence
1 Tendrils of Agony

Lands
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 City of Brass

Sideboard:
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Chain of vapor

Round 1 Goblins (2-0)
I went first and pondered and passed my opponent went mountain Vial and passed. I played a land and passed then he played a land lackey and passed. I didn't want lackey to get out of control so I burning wished for empty made a lot of gobbos and forced him to start blocking (Did not board). Three turns later I had six gobling to my opponents two but he was at seven life and I was able to grapeshot him dead. Game two was a turn one or two Ad Nauseam into tendrils.
1-0
Round 2 Dredge (2-1)
Game one I was able to ad nauseam on turn two or three for the win (Board -1 probe -1mox +2 chain of vapor).Game two I took a couple of cabal therapies on turn two or three and an Iona naming black. Game three I was staring down a lethal Golgari grave troll and I topdecked burning wish floated a bunch of mana and went for Diminishing Returns was able to lethal tendrils from there.
2-0
Round three NO rug (2-1)
I was able to cantrip a lot this game and duress him because he wasn't putting on a clock early it was just a dryad arbor attacking and latter a vendilion clique. Eventually I was able to ad Nauseam and tendrils. Game two I lost to a turn three clique and dryad arbor beats with counter backup. Game three was long. I opened with all four ponders, a land, a probe and a duress. I probed and saw he had counters a single land and a green suns zenith so I played my land and duressed his zenith. I pondered a bit (one got Rebbed and one got pierced) eventually he was able to start beating down with Clique and dryad arbor. When I was at six and my opponent was at 16 I drew a Lion's eye diamond to give me a hand of Led,Petal,Petal,Dark ritual,Dark Ritual, Rite of flame, Tendrils and I had two lands and I knew my opponent had at least a pierce in hand. I went Led, Rite of flame, then dark rit he responded with a brainstorm then pierced the ritual I paid two red and he pierce it again then I played both petals and a dark ritual and tendrils for 20.
3-0
Round 4 Esper Stoneblade(0-2)
Game one my opponent mulls to 5 and thoughtseizes me turn one. Turn three was snapcaster thoughtseize and I could never come back from that (Board -1 mox -1 probe +2 swarm). Game two I played a land and passed my opponent did the same then he thoughtseize me turn two and I brainstormed in response and it got pierced, it was all downhill from there.
(3-1)
Round 5 Team Italia (2-0)
Game one he had a lot of discard but he took a burning wish with Tidehollow sculler rather than infernal tutor when my hand had a Rite of flame and a dark ritual in it and I went off next turn (Board -1 mox -1 probe +2 chain of vapor). Game two was a lot scarier he went land go and I played a land and duress and saw that he had three fetches two hymns and a tidehollow sculler. He drew another hymn off the top and I had now hand a few turns later when sculler took my rite of flame. I drew for turn and my opponent said "chain of vapor" he was right, so I passed. I drew burning wish looked down at my two cards and five lands and passed. I took two from a sculler and EOT bounced it getting back my Rite. I drew another rite of flame and was able to go for a past in flames kill.
4-1
Round 6 Dredge (2-0)
Game one I played a land and pondered. Once I saw it was dredge I went for Ad nauseam and tendrils(board -1 mox -1 probe +2 chain of vapor). Game two he was able to therapy away most of my hand getting rid of my tutors and I just top-decked ad nauseam to kill him.
5-1
Round 7 Rug (0-2)
Game one I couldn't assemble a good enough hand fast enough then Clique got me and I lost a few turns later (Board -1mox -1 probe + 2 inquisition) I mulled to five and couldn't really get there, I tried to go off and played into a spellsnare I had seen earlier, played like a chump there.
5-2
Round 8 Maverick ID
I couldn't Top 8 and 9-32 paid the same we agreed to ID then I asked what he was playing.
5-2-1
Thanks to all of my opponents for being nice guys and giving me some great matches.

[Bryant Cook]

I was there too! I'm surprised I didn't meet you.

I had a worse day than you however. My day went as follows:

Round 1 - Lands 2-1
Round 2 - BUG Control 0-2 (I had a turn 2 win with Duress back-up, he wastes me, I fail to draw a mana source for five turns and lose. g2 kill myself with Ad Nauseam from 16 after sideboarding out ETW)
Round 3 - TES 2-1
Round 4 - Burn 0-2 (I get flooded after a couple of cantrips and Goblin Guide, actually makes it so I can't become Hellbent. G2 sided in all 3 Therapy and lost to MBT because I couldn't wish for Discard)
Round 5 - Esper Stoneblade 2-0
Round 6 - Spiral tide 2-1
Round 7 - Dredge 1-2 (he mulled to 4 g3 and killed me turn 2)
Round 8 - Omnishow 2-1 (Xantid was MVP)

[tsoatt]

Yeah I heard you were there, my round 7 opponent was Ning and he said he plays a lot with you so I realized I was screwed.

[Endure2004]

this is ning, yeah I was your round 7 opponent. great job on the finish! it was a pleasure playing against you in a feature match, even though we were in a corner and no one saw us

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Round 8 - Omnishow 2-1 (Xantid was MVP)

Show and Tell?

Resolves.

Emrakul. Xantid Swarm.

Untap. Win.

Please say it so.

[Bryant Cook]

Something I'm going to re-test is Reforge the Soul over Diminishing Returns.

With the addition of Gitaxian Probe the deck strengthened it's ability to use the Graveyard as a tool for Past in Flames.
I'm looking at Reforge the Soul in a similar way, it really strengthens the deck's ability to use Past in Flames in the new seven, it also has the benefit of not shuffling in Rite of Flames that may be in the Graveyard.

It's red mana which is easier to generate thanks to Rite of Flame.
It's not blue (Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast <- I've had this happen).
Doesn't exile the top 10. (I've only had this be relevant a handful of times in my six years of playing the deck)

The downside is that it's five mana instead of four.

Thoughts?

[Vandalize]

Something I'm going to re-test is Reforge the Soul over Diminishing Returns.

With the addition of Gitaxian Probe the deck strengthened it's ability to use the Graveyard as a tool for Past in Flames.
I'm looking at Reforge the Soul in a similar way, it really strengthens the deck's ability to use Past in Flames in the new seven, it also has the benefit of not shuffling in Rite of Flames that may be in the Graveyard.

It's red mana which is easier to generate thanks to Rite of Flame.
It's not blue (Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast <- I've had this happen).
Doesn't exile the top 10. (I've only had this be relevant a handful of times in my six years of playing the deck)

The downside is that it's five mana instead of four.

Thoughts?

Seems good. You can also Burning Wish + Brainstorm to set the Miracle up for a new fresh 7. That would be totally a corner case, but seems relevant if you keep a hand without artifact mana.

The main problem with Reforge the Soul is CMC 5. Sometimes if you had UB/UR/BR floating from Diminishing Returns, you could win the same turn. With Reforge, it might be a little harder to cast with mana floating.

[DarkJester]

Another (small) downside is that you are not able to reshuffle the yard against dredge....but if you are at this point of the game, you should have lost anyways. What about your statistics of Floating Mana? I found this to be relevant sometimes and this 1 mana more compared to DR seems very backbreaking, especially if you cast BW into DR/RtS the same turn.

EDIT: Should have read Vandalize's post before.

[joemauer]

The one extra mana is what is backbreaking with Reforge.
Look at this way, would you rather BW Reforge and perhaps do something cute with Past in Flames or would you rather BW Diminishing Returns with one mana floating? That one mana can be clutch.
Also if you are getting Past in Flames after your new seven via Burning Wish then more often than not you could have just Burning Wished into a lethal Tendrils.

The double blue has never been a problem for me. Lots of times when I want to Wish for Diminishing Returns is when my hand has been stripped and all I have in play is LED or two while I wait to topdeck a Wish. Also, most our lands do make blue mana :wink:

I am of course against Reforge the Soul, but don't personally have time to test it. Let me know if it works better than I suspect it would.

[Bryant Cook]

I understand that Reforge costs one more. I even posted it.

However, it's something I'd like to test one more time. The fact that it's red mana for Rite of Flame is somewhat relevant.

[KevinTrudeau]

Doesn't exile the top 10. (I've only had this be relevant a handful of times in my six years of playing the deck)

Really? When ToA was in the maindeck, the negative effects of exiling actually came up a bunch of times for me.


Thoughts?

Seems awful.


Another (small) downside is that you are not able to reshuffle the yard against dredge....but if you are at this point of the game, you should have lost anyways.

Casting a slightly premature Dim Returns against Dredge (before they get, say, above two Zombie tokens in play at worst, none in play ideally) is actually a pretty nice line of play, so I'd say it's actually not a small downside.

[Endure2004]

on a similar note, what do you guys think about time spiral as an alternative to diminishing returns? if you have 2 lands out, it is the same mana cost more or less, and if you have more lands out, it actually becomes cheaper. The downside is that it costs 6 to pull off. Late game though, it is a very cheap way to reload. Thoughts?

[Oiolosse]

Troll Food.

Diminishing returns is an oh-shit card. Replacing it with CMC =6 is not wise, as (1R + 4UU) open is unlikely.

[joemauer]

Really? When ToA was in the maindeck, the negative effects of exiling actually came up a bunch of times for me.



Seems awful.



Casting a slightly premature Dim Returns against Dredge (before they get, say, above two Zombie tokens in play at worst, none in play ideally) is actually a pretty nice line of play, so I'd say it's actually not a small downside.

*Scratches head*

I guess since Bryant is suggesting something new this time then you are playing the role of "Bryant Cook" by shooting it down. Is that right?

Good job. Next time try to throw a little more humiliation in there, though.

Edit: Perfect example of humiliation-

Says the guy who isn't posting anything constructive. But it sounds like someone is a little butt hurt that I probably shot down their crappy idea?

@Bryant: Despite your brash way of accepting new ideas, I generally respect your deckbuilding skills and consider TES to be the best storm deck currently.

I do think Diminishing Returns>Refore the Soul though. I don't think the corner cases for Reforge the Soul happen enough to outweigh that extra mana. Unless you have multiple Rites of Flames then Reforge isn't any easier to cast either.

Also, wiping your opponent's graveyard is usually a better perk than keeping ours. With Rite of Flames and Past in Flames being the only exception to this. Stopping dredge and shrinking Knights and Goyfs can be revelant.

[Bryant Cook]

*Scratches head*

I guess since Bryant is suggesting something new this time then you are playing the role of "Bryant Cook" by shooting it down. Is that right?

Good job. Next time try to throw a little more humiliation in there, though.

Says the guy who isn't posting anything constructive. But it sounds like someone is a little butt hurt that I probably shot down their crappy idea?

Endure2004 (Ning) - Spiral is bad because of the additional mana, at that point there's not really any incentive to play it over returns and potentially open yourself up to Spell Pierce/Daze. Reforge is slightly different since it's a Wheel effect and not a Twister effect. You're still able to use the yard as a tool.

I played T.E.S. tonight at a local, I had an opportunity to use the Returns/Forge slot, I ran Reforge tonight. I went turn one Ponder looking at Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Petal against Death and Taxes. Draw Dark Ritual, pass. Untap, draw Rite. Play a second land, Rite, Rite, Ritual, Chrome Mox (Remove Silence), Burning Wish (No other Business or Cantrips). Reforge the Soul. Cast it floating a red, draw Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Gitaxian Probe, Infernal Tutor, and a pair of lands. Run out the spells and won. It may've been a corner case but it certainty was insane there.

For the person that said Returns is an "Oh-Shit" button. It really isn't, I've played it plenty of times in the past after playing a turn two wish on turn three with a Ritual or artifact source. I like it the most in these situations because it bites you in the ass less if it whiffs.

[KevinTrudeau]

I guess since Bryant is suggesting something new this time then you are playing the role of "Bryant Cook" by shooting it down. Is that right?

Good job. Next time try to throw a little more humiliation in there, though.

It's not a new idea, though; it was brought up and weighed in this archetype as a Wish target back in spring when AVR came out, and the exact same conclusions were come to. Since nothing's dramatically changed regarding the decklist since then, I don't see why it should be seen in a different light now. Costing one more mana is simply too large of a caveat to ignore, and alone outweighs all of its unique benefits twofold, but hey, maybe I'm wrong.


Says the guy who isn't posting anything constructive. But it sounds like someone is a little butt hurt that I probably shot down their crappy idea?

There's a difference between saying Carpet of Flowers is too narrow to be played (which is fine, something I even alluded to) and saying it's ineffective versus Canadian Threshold, which was your argument. I'm not even playing it right now due to the former reason, but if there's a grip of Canadian Threshold in the field you expect to be playing in, it seems better than Cabal Therapy as the matchup-specific disruption slot to board in, with an additional boon of being pretty got dang great in the UW matchup.


For the person that said Returns is an "Oh-Shit" button. It really isn't, I've played it plenty of times in the past after playing a turn two wish on turn three with a Ritual or artifact source. I like it the most in these situations because it bites you in the ass less if it whiffs.

I second this.

[Endure2004]

just gonna make another pitch for my time spiral idea:

Has anyone cast diminishing returns for less than 2 mana floating recently? Personally, I don't think I have. At which point, time spiral is effectively the same cost. I don't remember ever casting it with less than two lands out either. At which point, it is effectively diminishing returns with the upside of mana bonuses at higher land counts.

I'm usually not casting diminishing returns against a pierce / daze deck unless 1. I'm about to die and have to cast it anyways 2. I've already protected my business spell, which in that case at 2 lands out they are basically the same and at 3 lands time spiral is 1 mana cheaper and at 4 lands out it is insane at 2 mana cheaper. If they pierce or daze you, it's the same as casting diminishing returns with 1 or 0 floating, so it's very difficult to win after that. I'm usually not casting burning wish against the pierce / daze deck to reload anyways, burning wish is usually fetching empty or past in flames in those situations, I feel like the diminishing returns slot is at its best against non-counterspell decks. In this case, in the grindy discard-based attrition matchups, time spiral has the potential to be bonkers, as if you get to 3+ lands, it becomes a very, very mana efficient way to draw 7 (much more so than diminishing returns). Thoughts?

[Bryant Cook]

It's not a new idea, though; it was brought up and weighed in this archetype as a Wish target back in spring when AVR came out, and the exact same conclusions were come to. Since nothing's dramatically changed regarding the decklist since then, I don't see why it should be seen in a different light now. Costing one more mana is simply too large of a caveat to ignore, and alone outweighs all of its unique benefits twofold, but hey, maybe I'm wrong.

There's a difference between saying Carpet of Flowers is too narrow to be played (which is fine, something I even alluded to) and saying it's ineffective versus Canadian Threshold, which was your argument. I'm not even playing it right now due to the former reason, but if there's a grip of Canadian Threshold in the field you expect to be playing in, it seems better than Cabal Therapy as the matchup-specific disruption slot to board in, with an additional boon of being pretty got dang great in the UW matchup.

Look, I overlooked and dismissed Gitaxian Probe a little too soon, that card is a game-changer. While I understand that Reforge the Soul isn't exactly the same thing or even as close as a game changer, it could be a subtle improvement. That's what I'm looking to accomplish. Subtle improvements until my list is damn near perfect and as of right now, I feel it's almost there with the current card pool. That is why I'm going back and looking at cards that didn't properly get tested or were overlooked.

Reforge the Soul may not be an improvement over Returns, it might be better because it's red mana. Last night, it was certainly better than Diminishing Returns, even with the one additional mana. The decision in my head currently is, "Is RR better than UU at the cost of an additional mana." Right now, I'm on the fence but I'm not ready to dismiss one over the other.

My comment wasn't directed at you, but rather joemauer and his useless, abrasive post. But regarding your apparent love affair with Carpet of Flowers. I've tested and tested and watched others play Carpet of Flowers. The fact of the matter is the card isn't that good. It's easily played around and does nothing to stop Force of Will. RUG can function off of as little as one land, then they can Daze or Wasteland themselves to prohibit you from gaining mana on a crucial turn. Yes, Carpet can negate a Spell Pierce, which is indeed awesome. But it won't always negate Spell Pierce + Daze/Spell Pierce. I would much rather just sideboard in cards that are good in other match-ups too and be more well rounded. If you would like to play Carpet, be my guest, just don't expect to see it in my list.


just gonna make another pitch for my time spiral idea:
Has anyone cast diminishing returns for less than 2 mana floating recently? Personally, I don't think I have. At which point, time spiral is effectively the same cost. I don't remember ever casting it with less than two lands out either. At which point, it is effectively diminishing returns with the upside of mana bonuses at higher land counts.

I'm usually not casting diminishing returns against a pierce / daze deck unless 1. I'm about to die and have to cast it anyways 2. I've already protected my business spell, which in that case at 2 lands out they are basically the same and at 3 lands time spiral is 1 mana cheaper and at 4 lands out it is insane at 2 mana cheaper. If they pierce or daze you, it's the same as casting diminishing returns with 1 or 0 floating, so it's very difficult to win after that. I'm usually not casting burning wish against the pierce / daze deck to reload anyways, burning wish is usually fetching empty or past in flames in those situations, I feel like the diminishing returns slot is at its best against non-counterspell decks. In this case, in the grindy discard-based attrition matchups, time spiral has the potential to be bonkers, as if you get to 3+ lands, it becomes a very, very mana efficient way to draw 7 (much more so than diminishing returns). Thoughts?

Yes. Spiral doesn't always have two lands to target, between Gemstone Mine counters and self-damage from City of Brass, untapping these lands isn't what you want to be doing. We aren't exactly playing Spiral Tide.

1.) You could be doing it wrong. As many times as I say this for some reason, people don't listen. Diminishing Returns is not an "Oh-Shit" button. Perhaps casting the spell earlier would put you in a position to not have to be forced to combo out before you're ready.

2.) How much mana are you generating on your combo turn at this point? Mana for protection against a blue deck with Daze/Pierce, Burning Wish, AND THEN Time Spiral. That's about ten mana you're claiming to create. There's a huge difference between eight and ten mana. In the "Grindy discard match-ups" Past in Flames is usually better, but even when it's not, returns is cheaper meaning you need to find less artifacts to sit on the board before casting your Wish for bomb.

[Pelikanudo]

Regarding Diminishing,

I can change IGG or PiF , one or other.
but D.R. for me is a must,

Yes 4 mana IS the difference against 5.
I don't think this is relevant to casting PiF. For me PiF in this archetype is simply slow, I'm not used to play it too often and I 've even switching between IGG and PiF...

@Bryant
Regaridng that torunament,

Do you have some report?

I played also a torunament too...
A friend also played TES he finally played the exact list as the post, I played the list with 3 gitaxian and full rainbow.
The past torunament with 11 lands made 5-2 this torunament was 2-5 and I only made 1 mistake the other rounds I lost one point is that I won 2-0 to miracles loosing 1 to a sucided A.N. (he played Entetat in resp to Silence). Thanks A.D.!!!

So I need to reach conclusions...

The meta has changed, at least in my meta there are more BUG, Canadian... abrupt shines but is worse vs generic hate than E.Truths...

The truth is that in match ups like BUG or RUG you CAN win 1st game but second games they're full of hate vs you and you 're about 50% to win those matcuhh ups... your plan needs to go thorugh assuming you will not win on first and second turn because they have a very hard turn 1 and 2 so beating in 1st and 2nd turns seems absurd to me...I just need to make the deck more stable...
I'm thinkng in switching to 13 lands 4 moxen 2 gitaxian. Definately. Still not sold on Empty Main, but thinking in setting 2 in side...
OR
Directly play what Emidlin suggest but this will be ANT (the one with 4 abrupts and 2 snapcasters seems really interisting list) or TNT. (the one with 14 lands 1 mox OR 15 lands.)

In that torunament I faced also some other combo players that were dying to a BUG, RUG infested meta, also Reanimator, Merfolk and SaT were there...
Please let me know your thinkings on the report or link.

[Bryant Cook]

Regarding Diminishing,

I can change IGG or PiF , one or other.
but D.R. for me is a must,

Yes 4 mana IS the difference against 5.
I don't think this is relevant to casting PiF. For me PiF in this archetype is simply slow, I'm not used to play it too often and I 've even switching between IGG and PiF...

@Bryant
Regaridng that torunament,

Do you have some report?

I played also a torunament too...
A friend also played TES he finally played the exact list as the post, I played the list with 3 gitaxian and full rainbow.
The past torunament with 11 lands made 5-2 this torunament was 2-5 and I only made 1 mistake the other rounds I lost one point is that I won 2-0 to miracles loosing 1 to a sucided A.N. (he played Entetat in resp to Silence). Thanks A.D.!!!

So I need to reach conclusions...

The meta has changed, at least in my meta there are more BUG, Canadian... abrupt shines but is worse vs generic hate than E.Truths...

The truth is that in match ups like BUG or RUG you CAN win 1st game but second games they're full of hate vs you and you 're about 50% to win those matcuhh ups... your plan needs to go thorugh assuming you will not win on first and second turn because they have a very hard turn 1 and 2 so beating in 1st and 2nd turns seems absurd to me...I just need to make the deck more stable...
I'm thinkng in switching to 13 lands 4 moxen 2 gitaxian. Definately. Still not sold on Empty Main, but thinking in setting 2 in side...
OR
Directly play what Emidlin suggest but this will be ANT (the one with 4 abrupts and 2 snapcasters seems really interisting list) or TNT. (the one with 14 lands 1 mox OR 15 lands.)

In that torunament I faced also some other combo players that were dying to a BUG, RUG infested meta, also Reanimator, Merfolk and SaT were there...
Please let me know your thinkings on the report or link.

Well I'm glad you feel that way about Past in Flames vs. I'll-Gotten Gains. I could've swore that I said I was done trying to help you with things I've already discussed with you. You constantly ignore advice and do what you want to anyway.

I'm testing Reforge the Souls, it certainly hasn't been worse than Diminishing Returns yet. The fact that you can set up part of your draws with Ponder and Brainstorm has been relevant. Rite of Flame has been much better than it was with Returns. I haven't noticed the mana difference yet. The fact that its been red instead of blue has been relevant. I recommend some others try this out instead of being so skeptical. It certainly isn't bad.

No, there isn't a report. I don't write reports for weekly events.

Obviously Echoing Truth is better against random hate, it has more targets. But the fact of the matter is that Counterbalance exists and sees play currently.

You could just try my configuration... Whch is the in between of what you suggested. If you want to try more lands I recommend a different storm deck.

[Pelikanudo]

I just would like to share my thinking on TES build from my lasts testing between TNT ANT and likes.

I came to the conclusion of this list:

4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Fetches

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Silence
4 Duress
1 Tendrils
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Grim Tutor

1 T.Seize
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Revoke Existence
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames


Explanations:

About 0 Gitaxian:
I have to recognize that it is great but in TES is used as a parity and it is not a card that is in deed needed, sure it is good well paired with Therapy OR Ampety main but we need more specific answers, also taking 2 lifes seems risky as this deck wants the bests outs to a Resolved A.N.
The idea is that the Build with 13 lands and 2 A.N seemed always ok except because of 2nd A.N.

About 1 Grim Tutor Main:
This is the best replace for 2# A.N. I wasn't very conscient of its existence, for sure this will be the perfect card to side and serves to make insane plays via Burning Wish -> G.Tutor in second and 3rd games.

About 0 Empty Main:
Never liked to play Empty main in a Storm Deck, same thoutghs as Emidlin and I don't want to play them in because they're good in the meta, I don't think so.
They re good because:
- Is good in 1st games vs RUG -Not needed really at least in first games.
- Well paired with Gitaxian and Therapys We don't need both of them

- About 3 Fetchlands
I'm thinking that I should play 4 and 2 City of brass, I think this is the correct configuration, but not sure if 3 Decays 2 Xantid can be supported by this. Please advice in here!

- About 3 Karakas: (Emidlin's suggestion)
This card as said is key vs soo many decks, even Renimator is using 2 in side logically but for us is sooo great, solves match ups vs:
Show And Tell Renimator And Thalias and Gaddock With Runes, that is all we need. It also serves to use as stable mana base instead of chrome and sometimes in control match ups is used to side in for that cause if we dont suspect Opponent Karakas.

- About Go back to 8 Disruption Effects and only 1 side (T.Seize):
The thing is that with Grim Tutor you have a +1 of whatever card in the deck so you can count as +1 the Cards To Be Countered so there is no need to really increase the number of Disruption Spells vs Control match ups mainly.
As an Example vs RUG I'll side just +1 Karakas -1 C.Mox. I'm considering this match up quite a lot.. I'm thinking in use in side 1 Pact Of Negation instead 1 Karakas, maybe the second Empty in Side is the soluction I need suggestion in here.


Some more notes:

- The idea is that increasing the mana to 13 as normal plus 4 moxen then you'll not have mana issues regarding casting the appropiate spell at its time and now getting screwed mainly in BUG and RUG match ups because of Wasteland.

- Empty is shit as a concept in Storm Decks you all boys need to agree with me, for sure maybe in side you can increase to 2 but the reality is that 0 Tendrils main decreasses the chances of winning post A.N.


Please let me know your thinkings mainly B.Cook, Final Fortune, Emidlins, Bahamut, Egosum paisano cuentate algo de TES, que macho ya te has pasado a ANT o TNT, realmente quiero apostar por TES todavía...

[maritlage]

- Empty is shit as a concept in Storm Decks you all boys need to agree with me, for sure maybe in side you can increase to 2 but the reality is that 0 Tendrils main decreasses the chances of winning post A.N.

Pelikanudo, What in the hell do you mean by this?!??!?!?!??! First Empty is fucken sick MD not shit. Since the return of it to MD statis I have had more people scoop or concede a game to a turn one storm of 6 or 7 some times 5 ending in Empty. With ToA MD you need to wait till at least turn 2 if you do not have a god draw. Second if you can not win with out ToA MD post A.N. then you need to go reevaluate how you are actually playing this deck cause i kinda remember there being 8 tutors, 3 disruption, 4 "the game is now just me versus my deck", and 8 ritual cards MD making it very easy to ToA after A.N. resolves I know I can do it and i have done it on several occassions versus Maverick, Show and Tell, and EsperBlade. So MD ToA is pretty much dead for rite now cause you have to wait to long for the set up or aggressively mulligan into being able to go off turn 1 putting yourself at a disadvantage from the go which you do not want to do at all especially game 2 or 3.

[lambert101]

@Bryant
How has the Reforge testing coming? I haven't had time to test and was curious as it may seem like a more viable option allowing more set ups.

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant
How has the Reforge testing coming? I haven't had time to test and was curious as it may seem like a more viable option allowing more set ups.

Same as the last time I posted about it. I haven't played T.E.S. in about a week, I've been preparing and testing my deck for tomorrow's Jupiter Games event.

[Bahamuth]

About 0 Gitaxian:
I have to recognize that it is great but in TES is used as a parity and it is not a card that is in deed needed, sure it is good well paired with Therapy OR Ampety main but we need more specific answers, also taking 2 lifes seems risky as this deck wants the bests outs to a Resolved A.N.
The idea is that the Build with 13 lands and 2 A.N seemed always ok except because of 2nd A.N.

Ad Nauseam never fizzles. I don't know what you're doing with your Ad Nauseams to make them fizzle tbh.


About 1 Grim Tutor Main:
This is the best replace for 2# A.N. I wasn't very conscient of its existence, for sure this will be the perfect card to side and serves to make insane plays via Burning Wish -> G.Tutor in second and 3rd games.

This card is horrible man. If you run Probes you don't have to run this.



- Empty is shit as a concept in Storm Decks you all boys need to agree with me, for sure maybe in side you can increase to 2 but the reality is that 0 Tendrils main decreasses the chances of winning post A.N.

I don't even know what it means that it's a bad concept, but I don't know why it's bad to have a card in my deck that probably wins me more games than Ad Nauseam.

[Pelikanudo]

Ad Nauseam never fizzles. I don't know what you're doing with your Ad Nauseams to make them fizzle tbh.



This card is horrible man. If you run Probes you don't have to run this.



I don't even know what it means that it's a bad concept, but I don't know why it's bad to have a card in my deck that probably wins me more games than Ad Nauseam.


Well The idea is that Gitaxian is in deed not needed as I always have been confortable with the 13 land 4 c.moxen configuration.
I've been noticing that playing 12 lands and 3-4 moxen and gitaxian as parity conept can be a way to handle the numbers regarding stable mana base but the reality is that you with 12 lands 3 moxen your manabase is not stable that 's why I think 13 lands 4 moxen 0 gitaxian is correct.
Gitaxian is good in producing storm and to see hand and nothing else, instead you will want A land Or a WinCon Or a Disruption.
Gitaxian is good again well paired with Therapy, in here I noticed we don't need therepy
Gitaxian is always sided out so the therapy is weaker so numbers again seems not proper.
Gitaxian is good with Empty main as you wil generate more than 5 and less than 10 storm so Empty With Gitaxian is ok.
A turn one resolved Empty is generally gg but I just can't go in that route as regardless I play Empty main or not I win BUG, RUG and Tempo variants in first games BUT in second and 3rd games statistics come and makes yoyu loos because of nbot drawing land or simply they have a So Powerful turn 1 defense that you inevitability MUST to use the long route, in that case Tendrils OR Empty are in deed equal and may Tendrils can be better in main because of less percentage of fizzing.

That is the reasoning.
I changed again even to 3 Silence 2 Orims 3 Duress disruption.
and the only card I 've hated was 2nd A.N. and 1Grim utor can be a decent replacement.
I thouth that maybe -1 disruption -1 A.N = +2 gitaxian was ok, and then more gitaxian were added instead of lands and moxen... Finally 4 gitaxian were added to the deck and the cost was -1moxen-1land-1 disruption-1A.N. and we ddn't noticed that the -1 Lands was a great error...I think that was the correct route the one with 13 lands 8 disruption 4 moxen 2A.N. and Tendrils main.

When I read this:
I don't even know what it means that it's a bad concept, but I don't know why it's bad to have a card in my deck that probably wins me more games than Ad Nauseam.
You will understand me that As Concept In TES this should not happen or should not happen too often.
I mean A.N Must be superior to Empty and we seem to tune the deck to make Empty more powerful than A.N...Do't think that is the route.

[Bahamuth]

and to see hand and nothing else

Do you know how insane it is to see your opponents hand for free?


Gitaxian is always sided out so the therapy is weaker so numbers again seems not proper.

I don't even side out Probe. It's way too good to side out.



A turn one resolved Empty is generally gg but I just can't go in that route as regardless I play Empty main or not I win BUG, RUG and Tempo variants in first games BUT in second and 3rd games statistics come and makes yoyu loos because of nbot drawing land or simply they have a So Powerful turn 1 defense that you inevitability MUST to use the long route, in that case Tendrils OR Empty are in deed equal and may Tendrils can be better in main because of less percentage of fizzing.

How does not drawing a land make a difference here? You were going to keep hands without land if you didn't have EtW in your deck? Additionally, most blue hate gets turned on at one or two mana. having the opportunity to win before that is already worth the card in your deck. Even more so because it's a really good draw.



and the only card I 've hated was 2nd A.N. and 1Grim utor can be a decent replacement.

Do you not see how it makes no sense to add a horrible card like Grim Tutor and remove the EtW? They are both buisness.


and we ddn't noticed that the -1 Lands was a great error...

I don't know what you're talking about here. I never ran 12 land.



I don't even know what it means that it's a bad concept, but I don't know why it's bad to have a card in my deck that probably wins me more games than Ad Nauseam.
You will understand me that As Concept In TES this should not happen or should not happen too often.
I mean A.N Must be superior to Empty and we seem to tune the deck to make Empty more powerful than A.N...Do't think that is the route.

The statement that Ad Nauseam must be 'superior' to EtW is just arbitrary.

[Dark Ritual]

Do you know how insane it is to see your opponents hand for free?



I don't even side out Probe. It's way too good to side out.



How does not drawing a land make a difference here? You were going to keep hands without land if you didn't have EtW in your deck? Additionally, most blue hate gets turned on at one or two mana. having the opportunity to win before that is already worth the card in your deck. Even more so because it's a really good draw.



Do you not see how it makes no sense to add a horrible card like Grim Tutor and remove the EtW? They are both buisness.



I don't know what you're talking about here. I never ran 12 land.



The statement that Ad Nauseam must be 'superior' to EtW is just arbitrary.

Agreed on probe. I ALWAYS want to draw probe in here or in ANT, the only times I don't are copies after the first one as paying 2 life a bunch isn't the best. Seeing the opponents hand for free is the nut high in storm combo, where you care about one thing and that is what the opponent has in their hand barring hate permanents. Siding it out never crosses my mind unless I'm boarding in a boatload of cards.

Agreed on keeping hands without lands. The only reason I ever do keep lands without lands is if I've mulled into oblivion or I have the nut draw. There's no excuse for keeping poor hands without lands, as you're very likely going to lose the game if you do so barring some sick topdecks.

Grim tutor is a terrible card in TES. Removing EtW for it makes almost zero sense. I'd never play grim tutor in TES as the card doesn't make the cut in here, Bryant tested the card a while back and guess what? Infernal and wish are leagues ahead of it and if you think you need more than 8 tutor effects you're wrong. You have about an 80% chance of drawing a wish/tutor in your opening hand. Then you have 10+ cantrips in brainstorm, ponder, and probe. You also have the 1 of ad nauseam to draw as well as the 1 of EtW. That means there are 10 business spells essentially as well as the cantrips, making over a third of your deck live draws (ponder, brainstorm, probe, wish, tutor, AdN, EtW.) If you can't draw a business spell for the life of you, accept the bad beat and move on to the next game. The chances of this happening are incredibly slim if you mulligan correctly.

Agreed on ad nauseam not being strictly better than EtW. EtW can give you games you have no business winning otherwise, as some opponents simply let you resolve all the mana into the naturally drawn EtW that completely wrecks their stacked hand of countermagic. Or they're stupid and let you tutor for it with 3R floating, although this is less likely I've seen it happen where my opponents let me tutor so as to counter what I tutor for and then I fetch EtW and breeze past all their hate.

[KevinTrudeau]

@Pelikanudo— Cutting Empty from the maindeck diminishes the consistency of the chief line of play versus Canadian Threshold, which is to (safely, I might add; if an opponent leaves up mana on turns one and two without casting a one-drop, you should generally switch to Plan B) make 10+ Goblins on turns one or two (Plan B, which we defer to once enough blockers+burn are in play, being build up enough cards/resources to Past in Flames or raw dog Tendrils). This is as such because once a Threshold player gets past his or her developmental turns (also turns one and two), he or she can (generally speaking) leave up resources for the rest of the game with which to disrupt us with; if we pounce early, they'll generally only have zero or one pieces of castable disruption within that frame of time, as opposed to a plethora as early as one turn, but generally two turns, later (Wasteland being one example of said disruption). Generally speaking, it sucks having a redundant/worthless copy of a card versus Force of Will combo decks, LED combo decks, and UW past turn two or so in the maindeck (Empty the Warrens' behavior versus blue decks is kind of an inverse of a current maindeck exclusion, Tendrils of Agony, in that it's awesome turns one-two and then usually gets geometrically worse each turn thereafter, whereas Tendrils is balls turns one-two and gets geometrically better each turn thereafter), but what it really comes down to is what you expect to face in any given tournament. If Threshold is the most popular deck in the field (something I believe you've alluded to in the past concerning your local metagame), you should probably have a maindeck copy; if you don't expect to face Canadian Thresh, Merfolk, etc. but once in the Swiss portions of a tourney and believe the field to be chock full of Show and Tell decks, feel free to run Tendrils again in the maindeck, cutting the Empty.

Try boarding out Ad Nauseam for ToA versus Merfolk and Canadian Thresh if you're playing EtW maindeck, as Ad Naus is redundant [in a general sense; obviously, there are many cases (drawing parallels here with the Reforge/Dim Returns debate here) where having access to Ad Naus specifically will win a game versus not having it, but you have to play your percentages] at that point.

Heed the words of Bahamuth, Dark Ritual, Bryant, myself, etc.: Grim Tutor is a large pile of poop.

Also, never ever try ketamine; nothing good ever came from Special K.

[Endure2004]

My tournament report for the November NELC Jupiter Games Duel for Duals:

My list:

4 dark rit
4 rite of flame
4 LED
3 Chrome mox
4 lotus petal
4 infernal tutor
4 burning wish
1 ad nauseum
1 empty the warrens
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
3 duress
4 silence
4 fetches
2 underground seas
1 volcanic island
3 gemstone mine
2 city of brass

SB
1 past in flames
1 ill gotten gains
1 tendrils of agony
1 grapeshot
1 revoke existence
1 time spiral
2 karakas
4 cabal therapy
2 abrupt decay
1 empty the warrens

Onto the matches!

R1 against Mark quackenbush goblins

Game 1 he has a double vial start with a wasteland. My hand is all rite of flames and burning wish when I'm forced to do something, and I end up making a bunch of goblins even though I would lose to matron for sharpshooter. His board is 2x vial, warchief, lackey, piledriver, some other goblin and I attack into him a couple times. On a critical turn, I burning wish for a grapeshot. I go to attack and post combat try to grapeshot his piledriver to death to not die on the backswing, and he vials in chieftain. Ouch, I die. I board in therapies and abrupt decays

Game 2 I have an awkward draw where I drew all 4 therapies (which i don't want to do...). On a crucial turn, I have a tutor chain into a tendrils for exact storm.

Game 3 He has a great hand going lackey, go. He then proceeds to waste me, drop double port, and port me while applying pressure. I rip a brainstorm, so on my next upkeep when he ports I brainstorm, hit another brainstorm, then brainstorm again, and find enough mana to go city of brass, lotus petal, some rituals, 2 LED's, and I could tutor chain him into a lethal tendrils, but I IGG loop him to check on his last cards (REB, land, land)

R2 against Nich Compton on Black Red Gate

I've played against Nich a lot, so I know most of his list. He's got hand disruption, bobs, grim lavamancers, liliana, gatekeeper of malakir, vampire nighthawk in his deck.
Game 1 I have the option of waiting a turn to try and draw a mana source to safely ad nauseum in a couple turns (need a land or a petal) or make 8 goblins. I'm on the play, so I end up making 8 goblins. He tells me later he had 2 1 mana hand disruption spells so it ended up being right I think. He plays grim lavamancer, on turn 2 he grims 1 and blocks 1. Then he plays gatekeeper of malakir kicked. He fails to draw into a nighthawk and dies. I board in therapies and abrupt decays cuz I've seen him run chalice in the past.
Game 2 I'm expecting a lot of hand disruption, I keep a hand of rite of flame, 2 ponders, some lands, and an adnauseum. He thoughtsiezes turn 1 taking ponder I think, I draw burning wish. turn 2 he plays tidehollow sculler taking my burning wish. Turn 3 I draw probe into petal and another rite of flame, and I play out my ad nauseum into a tendrils.

R3 against Matt Bell on dredge

Game 1 I remember duressing, taking away a draw spell, and then ad nauseuming for the win. In come therapies.
Game 2 He has a weak hand and casts some dudes (no dredging). I go to time spiral midway into the game with plenty of lands out and make a mistake, getting an LED nature's claimed when I could've avoided it. It didn't end up mattering, as I had an abundance of mana and my time spiral drew me into more mana and no tutors. I dig for a turn or two, don't find one, and die to 4 narcomoebas and a golgari thug beating me down (all hard cast). Embarassing.
Game 3 He keeps another weak hand where he casts dudes and doesn't dredge. I cast time spiral on three lands and draw into petal, dark rit, LED, burning wish. The rest of the cards didn't matter :)

R4 against Connor Thompson on UR burn

I know Connor from Ithaca and I knew what he was on.

Game 1 I keep a weak hand on the draw without a land drop but with a petal, rituals, ad nauseum, tutor, and an LED and a brainstorm. He plays delver on turn 1. I go to play my petal, and he dazes. I find a land on turn 2 and duress. He plays another delver and a goblin guide. I'm forced to ad nauseum from 8 and I die. I take out a ponder and a probe for 2 therapies.
Game 2 Midway through the game he has some burn spells and a force but no blue card and I have cantrips into mana into tutor chain for a lethal tendrils.
Game 3 I have an empty the warrens line with duress backup (I have to go for it so I can duress off dark rit) but he has double force to stop me. I lose.

R5 feature match against Joey on UW rest in peace helm of obedience combo.

Game 1 I have a setup where I can either duress and then ad nauseum next turn, or I can play rituals, duress, and then ad nauseum with 1 less floating. I decide to go safer, but I see a hand of counterspell, counterbalance, counterbalance. He plays it next turn with a top out. I check with a rite of flame, and he has another top revealed. I scoop. Expecting counterbalance, I board in abrupt decays and a couple therapies.
Game 2 Don't remember much. It was grindy, I eventually ad nauseum I think.
Game 3 Another long grindy game. I think he mulliganed both here and game 1. He enlightened tutors for a rule of law. I burning wish, then revoke existence on the next turn. He's eventually out of cards with a top out. I make a mistake by playing a rite of flame into an ad nauseum without playing a lotus petal and an LED (also had a burning wish in hand). He pops top and spell pierces it. Next turn, I play burning wish into past in flames and recast ad nauseum. It gets there.

R6 feature match against Doug Mckay on UR empty the warrens Jace TMS blood moon angel stompy

Doug always has the craziest decks :)
Game 1 I ad nauseum into a win, My probe revealed rite of flame, and like 4 cantrips.
Game 2 This game is long and involved. He plays a blood moon early off a chrome mox and basics. I eventually find a burning wish and a petal to revoke existence it. He plays another. Then he plays Jace. I still fight, but Jace eventually takes over with card advantage. He cliques me, and it's downhill from there.
Game 3 Also long and involved. He lands another blood moon. This time, however, I burning wish for empty. next turn, I play 3 lotus petals, tap 4 lands, and empty for 8. He pierces, I pay. He dazes, I pay. He dazes one copy, I get 6 goblins. They beat down, he's low on cards. He goes to clique my draw step to block, I play dark ritual ad nauseum in response. I draw some cards until I see a rite of flame and a burning wish (blood moon still out) and stop. He forgets to take a card with clique after seeing the ad nauseum flop. I beat him down to 1 the next turn, and rite of flame burning wish into a grapeshot.

Top 8! Woo! First top 8 with T.E.S.

Round 1 top 8 against Greg komar on Junk
Game 1 I IGG loop him on turn 2 on the play.
Game 2 I have a turn 1 kill, but he duresses turn 1, then plays an ethersworn canonist that I don't find an answer to. He thought about tapping a mana to play the enlightened tutor on turn 1 to get it, and it immediately popped into my head, but he played a bob instead. I even thought this, but I didn't pull the trigger on therapy naming enlightened tutor. If I had, the game would've been different :(. I lose before finding an answer.
Game 3 I mulligan to 5, He has turn 1 thalia off a mox diamond. I find a karakas to bounce her and burning wish for time spiral to find a new hand. He wastes karakas replays thalia. He draws 2 more wastelands, the fact that time spiral was inferior to time spiral in this situation didn't end up mattering as I couldn't cast either and lost.

I end up with a playset of bayous for my troubles. Thanks for reading! :)

[Stoyrm]

Won a tournament this weekend; Beating Burn, Goblins, Dredge, Miracles, BUG Control and two other decks i can't seem to remember atm - Losing only to Omniscience.

Empty the Warrens is insane and won me many games this weekend. Without a doubt a much better main deck card than ToA in my opinion. Anyways; Xantid Swarm was pretty good in the Miracles match.

I believe the fourth Gitaxian Probe in the list should be cut. I found the list didn't need 61 cards.


EDIT: Actually; i might have played one more fetchland than is in Bryant's List maybe that where the 61st card came from. Oh well.
Another EDIT: Also, i never wanted to play Reforge the Soul or when i did want to play it i was one mana short. I know Diminishing Returns isn't a reset button, but against Dredge it would have been nice to have it as just that ;D.

[Pelikanudo]

@Bahamut
@DarkRitual
@KevinTrudeaus
mainly

I'd like to see your lists of TES, mainly Bahamut or at least the diff between the Bryant list and yours.
as the B.Cooks design has 12 lands 3 moxen you said you have more than 12 lands.
Also you don't side out Gitaxian, could you expose your side strategy vs Canadian and BUG variants mainly. you say then you side out ponders, do you consider Gitaxian > Ponder?


Thanks for your support, I don't have much time , as long I have time I'll respond to all of your comments.
IMHO, as Good players as we are we don't need to see hands opponent we simply should know what they have, gitaxian 1)makes you loose 2 lifes 2)and generate storm 3)and makes you see the opp hands.
If the main purpose is to see hand I just don't need it, as for storm generator is good only well paired with empty.

[Bahamuth]

Mainboard:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Duress
3 Silence/Cabal Therapy


1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic
4 Mine
3 City
4 Fetch

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diminishing Returns


This is what I ran at the GP. I don't really know how I would currently change the board, as I haven't tested with Abrupt Decays yet. It might be better to run some number of Karakas instead of some of the Chain of Vapors.

I board -2 Wish +2 EtW against Rug. Against BUG it depends on what they're playing. There are so many different forms of BUG currently. If I don't see Deeds, I will probably board into EtW as well. Swarm is usually out of the question as they run infinite removal and will never board all of it out.

How exactly do you propose we know what they have in their hand if he's drawing random cards from a 60 card deck?

[Pelikanudo]

Well now I have somo more time,

It is impossible to know the hand from a random 60, I agree, but I didn't mean this exactly,
For example let's take as example the scenario:
Hand with 1 land and Random 6 starting you:
Regardless of what is playing the opponent I,
- I won't play the land unless 1)I have brainstorm or 2)ponder or 3)another land or 4)have a 1st turn win, this last case is debatable.

What I mean with this scenario is that you don't need gitaxian for these options to be changed, and this is applicable to other similar scenarios, for their purpose this can be the most crucial play in the deck. For sure gitaxian can help to determine if playing a land or not or comboing safety or not. But,
Gitaxian is played in TES as Parity concept mainly, so to the Bryant list the changes were:
- 1 Land, -1 A.N, -1 C.Mox, -1 Disruption.

So
I can say even that the numbers of a)lands b) c.moxen and c) Disruption seemed always ok before Gitaxian and the parity concept can ruin scenarios like before exposed as you'll find that your mulligans can get bigger or gitaxian can be countered and simply die or you play 2 gitaxian with a hand of 2 LEDs waiting for land and you simply won't draw it or that gitaxian should have been a land or a disruption or a moxen or simply what is needed at the proper moment.

If the goal is to thin the deck or to handle scenarios like described above I don't think this worth even you alterate these scenarios you will need to take out cards like ponder or brainstorm but not lands or/and moxen, but if the idea of TES Deck is to exploite A.N. I just simply can't agree, as the changes are not oriented to exploite A.N. even you take out Tendrils instead of Empty, I can agree on Empty base because we can make stronge plays well paired with gitaxian, but gets weaker A.N. I think we are loosing the concept of TES, even you play 3 burning, as Concept you should play 4 burning 3 infernal as Burning in that way can be better than I.T. as A.N. is as you say not the best choice sometimes.

For sure that if you play in a scenario like 2 gitaxian and some fetches and a Delver has attacked you once and you' re at 12 you will prefer to play Empty or PiF instead of A.N. but what I think is that we should not provoke these scenarios.


If you think gitaxian is so good I'll need to play the following:

Instants 13
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Silence
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual


Sorceries 22
1 Tendrils
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame



Artifacts [12]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal


Lands [13]

1 Volcanic Island
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine


The only card I can say I can consider parity is -1 dusruption and -1 A.N. from ols list as again we have 9 Business spells, not counting Tendrils and using 2 ponders as Parity in Business. not sure if this will work. I have never considered gitaxian > ponder.

For sure I'll use 2 Empty in side anyway.

My list is quite different from that one, but maybe that can be a start.
On my list I'm now considering instead of -1 A.N. -1 Dusruption = +2 personal tutor, but Grim Tutor is not as bad as it seems as a 1 of. by the moment I changed to 13 lands 4 moxen 1 tendrils main 3 Silence 2 Orims 3 Duress (1 side) still grim tutor. About Side I 'm thinking to switching to 3 karakas, they win me sooo many games vs sooo many bad pairings 3 abrupt and cosidering 1 Empty more in side.

I tested Gitaxian, I recognice you win with Empty base well paired with gitaxian but I don't think that is the route for TES, I played DDFT and TNT and all the combo in the world and I can say in DDFT is KEY or in TNT or ANT builds but in here in TES I don't think so.

[Bahamuth]

Well now I have somo more time,

It is impossible to know the hand from a random 60, I agree, but I didn't mean this exactly,
For example let's take as example the scenario:
Hand with 1 land and Random 6 starting you:
Regardless of what is playing the opponent I,
- I won't play the land unless 1)I have brainstorm or 2)ponder or 3)another land or 4)have a 1st turn win, this last case is debatable.

This example is barely relevant. Knowing your opponents hand is good if you have to decide on what cards to keep with Ponders/Brainstorms. The cards you need differ completely depending on what your opponents hand is. Often you can see that you cannot win without more disruption, or you'll see that you only need more mana or whatever.



So
I can say even that the numbers of a)lands b) c.moxen and c) Disruption seemed always ok before Gitaxian and the parity concept can ruin scenarios like before exposed as you'll find that your mulligans can get bigger or gitaxian can be countered and simply die or you play 2 gitaxian with a hand of 2 LEDs waiting for land and you simply won't draw it or that gitaxian should have been a land or a disruption or a moxen or simply what is needed at the proper moment.

I think you mean that taking mulligans is more difficult with Probe. This is true, but being able to see your opponents hand any time you see a Probe much outweighs that.


If the goal is to thin the deck or to handle scenarios like described above I don't think this worth even you alterate these scenarios you will need to take out cards like ponder or brainstorm but not lands or/and moxen

Why would I take out cantrips before land/mox? Cantrips improve consistency much more than running more land.


but if the idea of TES Deck is to exploite A.N.

It's not. The idea of TES is to win games. It doesn't matter how you win games.


I just simply can't agree, as the changes are not oriented to exploite A.N. even you take out Tendrils instead of Empty, I can agree on Empty base because we can make stronge plays well paired with gitaxian, but gets weaker A.N.

I can't remember the last time my Ad Nauseam fizzled. You can almost always either win or pass the turn and win next turn.


I think we are loosing the concept of TES,

There is no concept. We want to build the best storm deck.


even you play 3 burning, as Concept you should play 4 burning 3 infernal as Burning in that way can be better than I.T. as A.N. is as you say not the best choice sometimes.

Wish to Tutor is almost always a bad play, and Tutor is so much better than Wish that I will not only run 3 main.


For sure that if you play in a scenario like 2 gitaxian and some fetches and a Delver has attacked you once and you' re at 12 you will prefer to play Empty or PiF instead of A.N. but what I think is that we should not provoke these scenarios.

My list just casts a Probe and sees it can win the game with an EtW. Why would I not do that.



If you think gitaxian is so good I'll need to play the following:

Instants 13
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Silence
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual


Sorceries 22
1 Tendrils
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame



Artifacts [12]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal


Lands [13]

1 Volcanic Island
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine


The only card I can say I can consider parity is -1 dusruption and -1 A.N. from ols list as again we have 9 Business spells, not counting Tendrils and using 2 ponders as Parity in Business. not sure if this will work. I have never considered gitaxian > ponder.

You should obviously be running 4 Ponder and 4 Probe. Both are way too good to cut. I don't understand why you want to run ToA and the 4th Mox so badly. Mox is such a terrible card in multiples (drawing a single one is usually already terrible.)


On my list I'm now considering instead of -1 A.N. -1 Dusruption = +2 personal tutor,

How about you do +2 Ponder instead of +2 Crappy card.

[Pelikanudo]

How about you do +2 Ponder instead of +2 Crappy card.

In resume I can agree, therefore the list agreed will be like yours except:
-1 Empty the warrens = +1 burning w. -Still don't undestand why 3 b.wishes
or like mine proposal but:
+2 Ponder = -1 C.Moxen -1 Tendrils.
No Empty No Tendrils main for first games seem therefore the best option.

Anyway thanks for your support but I'll try other Non Gitaxian TES builds. by the moment testing resulted in (if anyone is interested):

4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Silence
2 Orims Chant
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grim Tutor

Side
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Revoke Existence
1 Grapeshot
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Duress

Possible Testing:
- 1 Grim Tutor -2 Orims = +1 Silence +2 Personal Tutor.

[joemauer]

Probe is amazing.

One game my opponent went first, laying an Island and passing the turn. I had a turn one kill that folded to pretty much any kind of permission. I cast probe to see what I could do. Turns out my opponent was playing ANT and had a turn two kill. I promptly won.

The two life is hardly a problem now that the deck plays one Ad Nauseum.

The information Probe gives us is invaluable. With all the card manipulation we have in Brainstorm & Ponder, Probe makes it very clear which cards we need in hand and which ones we need to shuffle away.

Oh and the card boosts our storm count too.

Really what is there not to love about this card?

[Bryant Cook]

Anyway thanks for your support but I'll try other Non Gitaxian TES builds. by the moment testing resulted in (if anyone is interested):


Bahamuth, now do you see why I gave up on helping him? He asks for advice, doesn't listen, then does what he wants anyway. Repeat.

In other news, I picked up a German FFB Tropical and a Japanese Foil Revoke Existence (I still think Hull Breach is probably better) in case they're ever worth playing. I guess the real question is to the ANT players, how has the SB Tropical been for you? I understand that fetching for a green source for Xantid Swarm or Decay is good. But is the additional lands vs. Tempo decks actually noticeable?

[Final Fortune]

Bahamuth, now do you see why I gave up on helping him? He asks for advice, doesn't listen, then does what he wants anyway. Repeat.

In other news, I picked up a German FFB Tropical and a Japanese Foil Revoke Existence (I still think Hull Breach is probably better) in case they're ever worth playing. I guess the real question is to the ANT players, how has the SB Tropical been for you? I understand that fetching for a green source for Xantid Swarm or Decay is good. But is the additional lands vs. Tempo decks actually noticeable?

Not particularly, but I think Tropical Island is probably going to notice it more than ANT considering its a more significant % increase in lands at 12 + 1 as opposed to 15 + 1 and at least all four of your fetchlands can find it compared to only 6 of ours.

[loveisgreen]

Played 20+ games against reanimator over the past couple of days with both reforge and diminishing returns in the board, and found that there is one more corner case benefit to reforge. There was never a game in which I wanted to shuffle his yard back in with a returns, because the time frame in which a monster is actually in the yard is usually either half a turn, or a few seconds. The extra mana was never a concern, and I never actually wished for Returns in any of those games. In one game, I was able to win through Griselbrand without silence because the 2 Force of Will he had already cast stayed in the yard instead of getting shuffled back in, and he didn't see another in the top 14. I realize this isn't going to matter a large percentage of the time, but I think the subtle differences Reforge makes are enough reason to stop playing Returns, regardless of how much Reforge resembles a pokemon card.

[Pelikanudo]

Played 20+ games against reanimator over the past couple of days with both reforge and diminishing returns in the board, and found that there is one more corner case benefit to reforge. There was never a game in which I wanted to shuffle his yard back in with a returns, because the time frame in which a monster is actually in the yard is usually either half a turn, or a few seconds. The extra mana was never a concern, and I never actually wished for Returns in any of those games. In one game, I was able to win through Griselbrand without silence because the 2 Force of Will he had already cast stayed in the yard instead of getting shuffled back in, and he didn't see another in the top 14. I realize this isn't going to matter a large percentage of the time, but I think the subtle differences Reforge makes are enough reason to stop playing Returns, regardless of how much Reforge resembles a pokemon card.

I understand that in 20 games you'll find one very remote possibility (Example:: When someday I draw a full hand of 4 LEDs I 'll reach the conclusion I have played magic enough.. and simply will stop playing magic, maybe some from here have already drew 4 LEDs...) but what I think at its simplests is that
For reanimator is better to have cards in gy than not to have so just because of this so simple reason Diminishing must be superior to Reforge at least vs Reanimator -this can be extrapolable to Dredge and this assuming you won't win this turn, and again 1 mana is a lot of difference.
I have so many reasons to not to play reforge...
1) The most the turns happens the more effective si Diminishng, Reforege not so much as Diminishng
2) The chances of winning because +1 mana are moreless the same as Diminishing percentages counting -1 alnd, simple.
3) A reasoning said is that Reforge is bigger well paired with PiF... Reforge is casted via Burning, next you play Reforge and need to draw extra 1 burning
4) you're surgical/extirpate objetive.
5) Retiring 10 cards I think does not affect.

Regarding thinking on putting 1 land tropical in TES:
1) If playing in side, it is not possible we don't have so much space, if only you play 2 A.Decay, doesn't woth
2) If playing i base, you need more fetches to make it effective
I think +1 city can be the ritgh move. Total 13 (Regardless of playing 3 moxen gitaxian or not)

[lambert101]

I like the +1 City idea. Been gold fishing the following:

4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

1 Empty The Warrens
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Past In Flames
1 Revoke Existence
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Karakas
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Reforge the Soul

It's Bryant's list on the opening page with the small changes in bold.

[Dark Ritual]

Probe is amazing.

One game my opponent went first, laying an Island and passing the turn. I had a turn one kill that folded to pretty much any kind of permission. I cast probe to see what I could do. Turns out my opponent was playing ANT and had a turn two kill. I promptly won.

The two life is hardly a problem now that the deck plays one Ad Nauseum.

The information Probe gives us is invaluable. With all the card manipulation we have in Brainstorm & Ponder, Probe makes it very clear which cards we need in hand and which ones we need to shuffle away.

Oh and the card boosts our storm count too.

Really what is there not to love about this card?

I now maindeck one tropical in ANT. There's a bayou in the board still. Boarding in an extra 1-2 lands against tempo helps a little bit but it doesn't vastly improve the matchup on its own. If you're boarding in trop against tempo thresh it's going to be a wasteable basic island essentially and bayou is a basic swamp as you shouldn't ever bring in decay for tempo unless you're hoping to screw them out of having a clock i.e. you board in abrupt decay as an uncounterable smother that doesn't work on mongoose, then again mongoose is usually pretty slow to kill us either way.

Personal tutor is shit. Remember mystical tutor? We ran 2 before it got banned.

We are here to build the best storm deck Pelikanudo. We aren't here to build Shitlist Long, nausea, IGGy POP!, or solidarity.

Good luck resolving a d. returns against a reanimator player with a fatty in the yard. The only possible way for this to work is for them to be on the draw and for them to go turn 1 careful study pitching fatty. The alternative is for them to be on the play and for you to be able to CAST d.returns on turn 1 and for you to hope they lack daze and FoW. The purpose of dreturns isn't to act as our wishboard graveyard hoser but rather to set us up to win the game the next turn or on the same turn. Sure we use it once in a while to attempt to hose dredge, but that can be terribly risky especially if they have a discard outlet onboard such as PImp as you could potentially lose to them if you pass after letting them draw 7 fresh cards that potentially includes a dredger and breakthrough or any number of things that could automatically win the game for them unless you're able to chant/silence them on upkeep after returns resolved.

Gitaxian probe is insane. +1 storm, free information, and it cantrips. What's not to like? The 2 life isn't much of a drawback at all. Also, legacy is a very diverse format. Knowing what you're playing against is huge. So your opponent leads with turn 1 misty rainforest. That can represent any number of decks from combo, to control, to aggro. Here are the decks that run misty rainforest in legacy right now or at least can off the top of my head:

All forms of BUG
Storm combo
Canadian thresh
Enchantress
Reanimator
Maverick

Go ahead and run less than 4 ponders. You'll lose a lot of games if you don't run the full set of ponders in your maindeck as running less library manipulation makes this deck a lot worse. The worst part? Substituting ponder for personal tutor is incredibly bad because P. Tutor is an incredibly terrible card that should be worth 2 dollars.

[Pelikanudo]

Probe is amazing.

One game my opponent went first, laying an Island and passing the turn. I had a turn one kill that folded to pretty much any kind of permission. I cast probe to see what I could do. Turns out my opponent was playing ANT and had a turn two kill. I promptly won.

The two life is hardly a problem now that the deck plays one Ad Nauseum.

The information Probe gives us is invaluable. With all the card manipulation we have in Brainstorm & Ponder, Probe makes it very clear which cards we need in hand and which ones we need to shuffle away.

Oh and the card boosts our storm count too.

Really what is there not to love about this card?

Lot of things, I'll expose some:

Assuming the best play in TES is Mana, LED, Petal, D.R., I.T., A.N.

1) It takes you 2 life, therefore if you draw, simply one more if you play it for free you're life total will be -4, if you play some more fetch or city, you're life total can oscilate between 16 or 15 from 1st turn. this fact makes match ups like Burn, Goblins and in general Fast Agro and also RUGworse match ups as regardless knowing what the opponent is playing you'll mainly need to go off soon except in RUG, BUT RUG puts you on a fast clock so is not the same to combo at 13 than 17 lifes. This is the main reason.

2) the things substituited in TES were -1 Land, -1 Disruption -1 C.Moxen, -1 A.N.
I can agree on -1 Diruption -1 A.N and maybe -1 C.M BUT never I'll contemplate -1 Land. Parity Concept can not be applyed to -1 Land

3) Incresing the Storm Count affect if you do not play next A.N., if you play ETW, you'll see that for scenarios on which you want to play ETW soon it is better. In This last Case the difference can oscilate between 14 Gobbos and 16in most of these scenarios OR at least you're 99% likely to win, I don't think it is worth, maybe with Empty in Base, but I don't play them in Base.

4) Gitaxian makes you dependant on Siding, A Fact is that Ponder > Gitaxian, and if you put in Therapis you'll take out at least 1 Gitaxian, Fact that is nonsense, If I Would have played Therapyies in side I wouldn't side out any gitaxian as you won't want scenarios on which you do not hit the card. Simple.

5) I don't see therapy neccesary in TES, even now in Abrupt Decay Era.

6) TES is based on Threats more than in manipulation, you've already 8 manipulation effects aren't them enough? The rest of cards are just good cards or simply neccesary cards that you simply need to have in hand and not need to draw to have them in hand

7) I can agree on 2 slots: -1A.N. and -1Disruption and tested 2 Gitaxian and I noticed that Preordain is way better for its purpose, now I'm testing other things.

8) Last because of tiring of giving reasons, I personally just don't need to see the hand of the opponent to win games with TES, so I just don't need a card that makes you draw 1 extra card, counts storm +1, makes loose 2 lifes and see hand of opponent. Simple.

[Final Fortune]

Lot of things, I'll expose some:

Assuming the best play in TES is Mana, LED, Petal, D.R., I.T., A.N.

1) It takes you 2 life, therefore if you draw, simply one more if you play it for free you're life total will be -4, if you play some more fetch or city, you're life total can oscilate between 16 or 15 from 1st turn. this fact makes match ups like Burn, Goblins and in general Fast Agro and also RUGworse match ups as regardless knowing what the opponent is playing you'll mainly need to go off soon except in RUG, BUT RUG puts you on a fast clock so is not the same to combo at 13 than 17 lifes. This is the main reason.

2) the things substituited in TES were -1 Land, -1 Disruption -1 C.Moxen, -1 A.N.
I can agree on -1 Diruption -1 A.N and maybe -1 C.M BUT never I'll contemplate -1 Land. Parity Concept can not be applyed to -1 Land

3) Incresing the Storm Count affect if you do not play next A.N., if you play ETW, you'll see that for scenarios on which you want to play ETW soon it is better. In This last Case the difference can oscilate between 14 Gobbos and 16in most of these scenarios OR at least you're 99% likely to win, I don't think it is worth, maybe with Empty in Base, but I don't play them in Base.

4) Gitaxian makes you dependant on Siding, A Fact is that Ponder > Gitaxian, and if you put in Therapis you'll take out at least 1 Gitaxian, Fact that is nonsense, If I Would have played Therapyies in side I wouldn't side out any gitaxian as you won't want scenarios on which you do not hit the card. Simple.

5) I don't see therapy neccesary in TES, even now in Abrupt Decay Era.

6) TES is based on Threats more than in manipulation, you've already 8 manipulation effects aren't them enough? The rest of cards are just good cards or simply neccesary cards that you simply need to have in hand and not need to draw to have them in hand

7) I can agree on 2 slots: -1A.N. and -1Disruption and tested 2 Gitaxian and I noticed that Preordain is way better for its purpose, now I'm testing other things.

8) Last because of tiring of giving reasons, I personally just don't need to see the hand of the opponent to win games with TES, so I just don't need a card that makes you draw 1 extra card, counts storm +1, makes loose 2 lifes and see hand of opponent. Simple.

If you don't like the card then don't play with the card, it's not essential to the archetype and if you prefer having a higher land count and easier mulligan decisions as opposed to information it's a perfectly reasonable argument. Honestly, the only defining characteristics of TES are Rite of Flame and Chrome Mox, if you just decided to cut Silence for Thought Seize it probably wouldn't matter that much, altho' whether or not it was an optimal decision is debatable.

We don't have to all play the same list, chill out.

[Bryant Cook]

In other news, I played T.E.S. at a local last night. Some key notes/highlights:

Won my round two vs. Death and Taxes with 12 main deck hatebears (Thalia, Revoker, then the can't search unless you play 2 bro). Abrupt Decay + Karakas were both crucial.

During my round three Decay killed two Canonists against UW Rest in Peace combo. He played a third Canonist, I played Burning Wish for Hull Breach. Breach killed a Canonist AND a Rest in Peace! Situational? Maybe. Was it awesome? Yes.

During the same match I played Reforge the Soul (I've yet to miracle this in tournament play, still waiting), it was relevant that it wasn't a shuffle considering that there were two Force of Will already in the opponents' graveyard.

[r3dd09]

In other news, I played T.E.S. at a local last night. Some key notes/highlights:

Won my round two vs. Death and Taxes with 12 main deck hatebears (Thalia, Revoker, then the can't search unless you play 2 bro). Abrupt Decay + Karakas were both crucial.

During my round three Decay killed two Canonists against UW Rest in Peace combo. He played a third Canonist, I played Burning Wish for Hull Breach. Breach killed a Canonist AND a Rest in Peace! Situational? Maybe. Was it awesome? Yes.

During the same match I played Reforge the Soul (I've yet to miracle this in tournament play, still waiting), it was relevant that it wasn't a shuffle considering that there were two Force of Will already in the opponents' graveyard.

Good job, Cook. I'm building TES again. DDFT I feel is too slow for the format right now. I like the newer build. Just need to pick up a few cards before the event.

I'll probably be playing TES for the GPT in two weeks as well. On this note, who all is attending Denver?

[Bryant Cook]

Thanks to Mindi Rogers at Jupiter Games, we now have separate videos of Ning's feature matches. They're on the opening post! Although, we only have part of his round five.

[Frid]

Hello, i am a returning player. First of all excuse my poor english, i am an european player.

I think that since mystical tutor was banned, The E.P.I.C Storm is the best combo deck becouse of its more versatile and has more "i win" cards so im going to play it. The problem is that seeing Bryan's and some other player list i dont understand some choices so please help me with these.

1- Why arent you runing a maindeck Tendrils?
2- Why is OP playing 3 fetches, 1 of each instead of more polluted deltas or more city of brasses?
3 Why arent you running a Maindeck Past in flames?
4 Why are you playing silence over Orim's chant or 2 and 2 instead of 4 orims? Im curious about this one, ive read the cards very carefully and i dont see where is silence better than Orims. is it becouse Silence doesnt Target the oponent? To avoid what?
5 If i wanted to play Maindeck discard -wich i dont know yet- should i play duress or inquisition?
6 Whats the plan on playing the miracle wheel of fortune? Wish for it then brainstorm and draw it next turn? I asume that the red color is more confortable to cast then going off becouse of the red rituals also.
7 Two xantid on the side seems a bit random to me, you cant tutor them and only 2. Can you explain versus wich decks you play it and how? Same question with Karakas.

keep in mind i stoped playing like 2 or 3 years ago, when the new yawg will didnt exist and miracle control maverick etc didnt exist.

And congratulations to everyone, this is the most sexy deck ive ever seen in legacy. It has power, it has speed, its versatile, what a bomb!

[Vandalize]

Hello, i am a returning player. First of all excuse my poor english, i am an european player.

I think that since mystical tutor was banned, The E.P.I.C Storm is the best combo deck becouse of its more versatile and has more "i win" cards so im going to play it. The problem is that seeing Bryan's and some other player list i dont understand some choices so please help me with these.

1- Why arent you runing a maindeck Tendrils?
2- Why is OP playing 3 fetches, 1 of each instead of more polluted deltas or more city of brasses?
3 Why arent you running a Maindeck Past in flames?
4 Why are you playing silence over Orim's chant or 2 and 2 instead of 4 orims? Im curious about this one, ive read the cards very carefully and i dont see where is silence better than Orims. is it becouse Silence doesnt Target the oponent? To avoid what?
5 If i wanted to play Maindeck discard -wich i dont know yet- should i play duress or inquisition?
6 Whats the plan on playing the miracle wheel of fortune? Wish for it then brainstorm and draw it next turn? I asume that the red color is more confortable to cast then going off becouse of the red rituals also.
7 Two xantid on the side seems a bit random to me, you cant tutor them and only 2. Can you explain versus wich decks you play it and how? Same question with Karakas.

keep in mind i stoped playing like 2 or 3 years ago, when the new yawg will didnt exist and miracle control maverick etc didnt exist.

And congratulations to everyone, this is the most sexy deck ive ever seen in legacy. It has power, it has speed, its versatile, what a bomb!

I'm not Byrant, but I might answer those questions:

1) Empty the Warrens is better paired with Gitaxian Probe, and you can storm 4~6 and still win game 1, opposed to Tendrils, which sould have at least 9 storm.

2) This is mainly to beuaty pruposes. Byrant has a really shiny pimp deck. And all fetches can grab Volcanic Island and Underground Sea, anyways.

3) Past in Flames hurts flipping on Ad Nauseam, and we don't play Cabal Ritual to take full advantage of it maindeck. It's on the sideboard for Burning Wish.

4) Silence doesn't target your opponent. This might be a corner case, but people actually bring Leyline of Sanctity against Storm.

5) Depends on your metagame. Duress is better against permission and Inquisition is better against Hatebears (like Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Ethersworn Canonist).

6) Actually, it is usually cast in the same turn that you grab it with Burning Wish. It's replacing Diminishing Returns, which is CMC4 but requires UU to work, which isn't a really good mana without Lion's Eye Diamond. Reforge the Soul is red, and we can take advantage of getting a lot of red mana through Rite of Flame.

7) Karakas is very versatile, it can bounce some pesky Legends, like Thalia, Teeg, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeon Torn etc. Xantid Swarm is good against decks that has few removal, like Show and Tell and Merfolks. But you can also bring it against UW Control, because they usually side out Swords to Plowshares. Xantid works pretty much like Silence, but it's better against taxing counters, like Spell Pierce and Daze.

Hope it helped.

[Frid]

I'm not Byrant, but I might answer those questions:

1) Empty the Warrens is better paired with Gitaxian Probe, and you can storm 4~6 and still win game 1, opposed to Tendrils, which sould have at least 9 storm.

2) This is mainly to beuaty pruposes. Byrant has a really shiny pimp deck. And all fetches can grab Volcanic Island and Underground Sea, anyways.

3) Past in Flames hurts flipping on Ad Nauseam, and we don't play Cabal Ritual to take full advantage of it maindeck. It's on the sideboard for Burning Wish.

4) Silence doesn't target your opponent. This might be a corner case, but people actually bring Leyline of Sanctity against Storm.

5) Depends on your metagame. Duress is better against permission and Inquisition is better against Hatebears (like Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Ethersworn Canonist).

6) Actually, it is usually cast in the same turn that you grab it with Burning Wish. It's replacing Diminishing Returns, which is CMC4 but requires UU to work, which isn't a really good mana without Lion's Eye Diamond. Reforge the Soul is red, and we can take advantage of getting a lot of red mana through Rite of Flame.

7) Karakas is very versatile, it can bounce some pesky Legends, like Thalia, Teeg, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeon Torn etc. Xantid Swarm is good against decks that has few removal, like Show and Tell and Merfolks. But you can also bring it against UW Control, because they usually side out Swords to Plowshares. Xantid works pretty much like Silence, but it's better against taxing counters, like Spell Pierce and Daze.

Hope it helped.

It's been a ton of help, thank you very much.

1- I think at the beggining ill feel uncomfortable without a maindeck tendrils but ill test it.

4- Is it worth to loose the kicker effect agains aggro just to be able to chant your opponent when he has a leyline on the field? You have to bounce it anyway -or kill him with Empty the warrens.

[Holly]

The Silence allows you to play your game and draw your etw/bounce to kill them. It's for the decks which play Leyline & have counter backup.
Most aggro decks you don't really need the kicker of chant, simply race them.

[.dk]

One other reason for Silence vs. Chant: because Chant targets, it can be Misdirected. Doesn't happen that often, but can be a blowout when it does.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm not Byrant, but I might answer those questions:

1) Empty the Warrens is better paired with Gitaxian Probe, and you can storm 4~6 and still win game 1, opposed to Tendrils, which sould have at least 9 storm.

2) This is mainly to beuaty pruposes. Byrant has a really shiny pimp deck. And all fetches can grab Volcanic Island and Underground Sea, anyways.

3) Past in Flames hurts flipping on Ad Nauseam, and we don't play Cabal Ritual to take full advantage of it maindeck. It's on the sideboard for Burning Wish.

4) Silence doesn't target your opponent. This might be a corner case, but people actually bring Leyline of Sanctity against Storm.

5) Depends on your metagame. Duress is better against permission and Inquisition is better against Hatebears (like Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Ethersworn Canonist).

6) Actually, it is usually cast in the same turn that you grab it with Burning Wish. It's replacing Diminishing Returns, which is CMC4 but requires UU to work, which isn't a really good mana without Lion's Eye Diamond. Reforge the Soul is red, and we can take advantage of getting a lot of red mana through Rite of Flame.

7) Karakas is very versatile, it can bounce some pesky Legends, like Thalia, Teeg, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeon Torn etc. Xantid Swarm is good against decks that has few removal, like Show and Tell and Merfolks. But you can also bring it against UW Control, because they usually side out Swords to Plowshares. Xantid works pretty much like Silence, but it's better against taxing counters, like Spell Pierce and Daze.

Hope it helped.

The name is Bryant. But you're right for the most part, besides point two. Aside from having them all pimped out, it's to avoid Pithing Needle/Surgical Extration. Which has happened to me before. Although, I'm considering doing two Scalding Tarn and a Misty Rainforest to look like RUG.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

The name is Bryant. But you're right for the most part, besides point two. Aside from having them all pimped out, it's to avoid Pithing Needle/Surgical Extration. Which has happened to me before. Although, I'm considering doing two Scalding Tarn and a Misty Rainforest to look like RUG.

I'm playing 2 Scalding and a Misty.

Currently running a main deck Past in Flames.

[Pelikanudo]

Bahamuth, now do you see why I gave up on helping him? He asks for advice, doesn't listen, then does what he wants anyway. Repeat.

I had to answer this,

I do not ask for suggestion or advice I ask for your opinions mainly , sometimes I ask for advice but these are few, very few times, I think in here we are all able to reach our own conclusions, I'd like all in here would reach the same conclusions but simply the way one thinks is different from the way another person thinks.
I'm not used to listen and I'm used to be listened by others, so please don't deal with me as I'm a child as I'm not, so please and again do not deal with me in such a way.

I already said thanks to Bahamut for his comments and opinions.

When I win a Tournament with my 1 GrimTutor No Gitaxian TES List I'll post in here and get back to you for sure.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I do not ask for suggestion or advice I ask for your opinions mainly...

To clarify:

o·pin·ion [uh-pin-yuhn]
noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4. Law . the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.

sug·ges·tion [suhg-jes-chuhn, suh-]
noun
1. the act of suggesting.
2. the state of being suggested.
3. something suggested, as a piece of advice: We made the suggestion that she resign.
4. a slight trace: He speaks with a suggestion of a foreign accent.
5. the calling up in the mind of one idea by another by virtue of some association or of some natural connection between the ideas.

ad·vice [ad-vahys]
noun
1. an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.: I shall act on your advice.
2. a communication, especially from a distance, containing information: Advice from abroad informs us that the government has fallen. Recent diplomatic advices have been ominous.
3. an official notification, especially one pertaining to a business agreement: an overdue advice.

tldr; So you ask people to comment about your lists and/or answer your questions to simply ignore them?

/end rant

Here's where I'm at for T.E.S.

12 Land
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

48 Spells
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam

15 Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
2 Karakas
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Hull Breach
1 Duress
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

Hammer away...

[Pelikanudo]

To clarify:

o·pin·ion [uh-pin-yuhn]
noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4. Law . the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.

sug·ges·tion [suhg-jes-chuhn, suh-]
noun
1. the act of suggesting.
2. the state of being suggested.
3. something suggested, as a piece of advice: We made the suggestion that she resign.
4. a slight trace: He speaks with a suggestion of a foreign accent.
5. the calling up in the mind of one idea by another by virtue of some association or of some natural connection between the ideas.

ad·vice [ad-vahys]
noun
1. an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.: I shall act on your advice.
2. a communication, especially from a distance, containing information: Advice from abroad informs us that the government has fallen. Recent diplomatic advices have been ominous.
3. an official notification, especially one pertaining to a business agreement: an overdue advice.

tldr; So you ask people to comment about your lists and/or answer your questions to simply ignore them?

/end rant

Here's where I'm at for T.E.S.

12 Land
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

48 Spells
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam

15 Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
2 Karakas
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Hull Breach
1 Duress
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

Hammer away...

Please let's stop this:

I mainly ask for opinions , and sometimes (very few times) ask for advice.
When I ask for opinions I do not ignore them I just:
1. Simply read them
2. Simply have in mind
3. I contrast with other opinions
4. I reach to a conclusion

When I ask for advice, I use the humility god gave me. and of course Some of them I will ignore absolutly (once I reach to a conclusion) and Some of them I'll have in mind, Simple.

Regarding to your list, it is a beatiful list, but it has nonsense to me. Thanks anyway for posting your list to whom may be interested.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

To clarify:

o·pin·ion [uh-pin-yuhn]
noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4. Law . the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.

sug·ges·tion [suhg-jes-chuhn, suh-]
noun
1. the act of suggesting.
2. the state of being suggested.
3. something suggested, as a piece of advice: We made the suggestion that she resign.
4. a slight trace: He speaks with a suggestion of a foreign accent.
5. the calling up in the mind of one idea by another by virtue of some association or of some natural connection between the ideas.

ad·vice [ad-vahys]
noun
1. an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.: I shall act on your advice.
2. a communication, especially from a distance, containing information: Advice from abroad informs us that the government has fallen. Recent diplomatic advices have been ominous.
3. an official notification, especially one pertaining to a business agreement: an overdue advice.

tldr; So you ask people to comment about your lists and/or answer your questions to simply ignore them?

/end rant

Here's where I'm at for T.E.S.

12 Land
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

48 Spells
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam

15 Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
2 Karakas
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Hull Breach
1 Duress
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

Hammer away...

IGG Main? For Reals? Reforge the soul and diminishing returns?

Also, man am I glad somebody else is playing MD Therapies. Maybe it's because the meta here is small and predictable, but that card has been sause. I'm basically playing the list you have posted except +1 therapy - 1 silence, and also, -1 IGG, + 1 fetchland.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

IGG Main? For Reals? Reforge the soul and diminishing returns?

Also, man am I glad somebody else is playing MD Therapies. Maybe it's because the meta here is small and predictable, but that card has been sause. I'm basically playing the list you have posted except +1 therapy - 1 silence, and also, -1 IGG, + 1 fetchland.

Reforge the Soul is what I'm playing right now. Couldn't decided on a 15th slot so I shoved Diminishing Returns in there.

Iggy is main because -- well I just love that card. You never want to draw it, but I figured it's an easier win versus fast aggro, where you can't always Ad Nauseam from a reasonable life total.

MD Cabal Therapies are amazing cause if you miss, you're probably still winning. DR, therapy etc., also beats double FOW hands like Silence and unlike Duress.

I really want to play the third City of Brass.

@3 Burning Wish: I compare it to Chrome Mox. I ALWAYS hate drawing the second one.

[Dark Ritual]

Good luck with 1 grim tutor maindeck or anywhere in your 75 for that matter...the card is a steaming pile of shit in TES. I'd rather run 4 wish and 4 infernal before I even considered running grim, and guess what? Burning wish isn't a 4 of in TES anymore because the card is a pile in multiples sans the rare corner case where you can successfully go wish -> PiF/IGG probably discarding the second wish to LED in the process, resolving PiF/IGG, and proceeding to kill them with tendrils. But that rarely happens and is what is known as a corner case.

So you switched to IGG Kirby? Was PiF not pulling its weight? I'm genuinely interested, as PiF is a really solid card in my eyes with the capability to flash it back for 4R + (R/B) floating as well as being good against blue decks if you haven't resolved a chant effect.

Also, good luck winning with no probes and a super clunky grim tutor. You might mise a few wins, but if you win a tournament I will be amazed and something will be proven that day. That something being that shitty suboptimal decks can win a tournament.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

PiF vs Iggy

Played around with both, I'd rather give my LED pseudo flashback opposed to rituals/tutors.

Most cases you're just trading 6 mana + Tutor for easier kills with Grapeshot. PiF is back in the board. Too many times where LED was all I had for mana.

Beating the dead horse, but PiF wants Cabal Ritual to be good. Not enough stuff to flashback. I usually died before I could set it up.

[Bryant Cook]

The main deck Therapies are interesting, I'll have to try it before I come to a conclusion. My fear is that now you only have Probe for information, where before you had Probe/Duress. You're relying a lot more on luck.

Ill-Gotten Gains just simply isn't worth the slot in my opinion, but if your metagame is mega-heavy aggro I guess it could be fine. But even then, you should just be crushing anyway.

Why Defense Grid? Are you really that unhappy with Xantid Swarm? D-Grid is a lot more susceptible to Daze/Spell Pierce.

Reforge + Returns should change. Probably another Decay.

[End3r000]

It seems to me ANT and TES keep evolving closer and closer to the same final end, especially now that both lists are trying the Abrupt Decay and Xantid Swarm SB plan. I recently moved away from the chant effects and to the therapy plan because it seemed so much stronger. I just won a small local tourny with the following list:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
3 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

SB:1 EtW
1 IGG
1 ToA
1 DR
1 Pyroclasm
4 Dread of Night
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress
1 Shattering Spree

Rd 1 I played against goblins which was an easy 2-0 going AdN into ToA both games turn 2.

Rd2 I played against UW Miracles which my friend was playing. Tore his hand apart with discard and calmly Tendriled him out game 1. Game 2 he goes T1 top pass, I play underground into therapy, he lets it resolve, naming CB and hit seeing another top, some land, and Force with CB as his only other blue card. We play land pass for a turn or 2, I've probed and know he's about to drop jace, but I'm 1 storm count from killing him with tendrils, but I decide to hit him anyway bringing him down to 1 and turning off his fetches. He can't do anything and I eventually kill him with some goblins.

Rd 3 I play against Belcher, game 1 I wish for pyroclasm after EtW, and game 2 I wish for Spree after he drops Belcher. Game 1 I mulled to 5 and game 2 he mulled to 6.

Rd 4 I play against goblins again with the same outcome.

Rd 5 I split with UW Miracles player, but play to see who gets the points. Both games I rip his hand apart and Ad Nauseam Tendrils him.

After playing in that tournament and some other testing I've done I think I'm going to move the third wish to the board and play one Grim Tutor in the main. I also want to try Reforge the Soul and Past in Flames.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

The main deck Therapies are interesting, I'll have to try it before I come to a conclusion. My fear is that now you only have Probe for information, where before you had Probe/Duress. You're relying a lot more on luck.

Ill-Gotten Gains just simply isn't worth the slot in my opinion, but if your metagame is mega-heavy aggro I guess it could be fine. But even then, you should just be crushing anyway.

Why Defense Grid? Are you really that unhappy with Xantid Swarm? D-Grid is a lot more susceptible to Daze/Spell Pierce.

Reforge + Returns should change. Probably another Decay.

I prefer Iggy because more often it's easier to get kills with it than PiF. The latter cares too much about what tutors are in the yard, and sometimes the mana gets awkward.

But like you said, it's pretty much uneccessary. Mostly a preference. Love the card. Sacred Cow.

I wasn't happy with 2 Xantid Swarms, I wanted more but decided I'd rather just have something more rewarding against RUG. Daze and Spell Pierce are real things, but when I played with Defense Grid, I was more worried they'd Spell Snare it, which most lists no longer play.

The third Abrupt Decay will probably replace Diminishing Returns or Reforge the Soul. I'm leaning with staying on DR because I've been more happy with exiling 10 cards (the chaff/unwanted cards) than most draws with Reforge. Casting Reforge is almost too hard for my liking. Would rather cast a Time Spiral or something 6cc. Haven't screwed with miracling it though.

[Bryant Cook]

Won a small local event tonight, oddly enough I had two opponents play Blood Moon against me. Burning Wish for Reforge was a thing.

The Empty main deck won two games on it's own. I think I'm going to stick with this list for the moment, I don't think Therapy main would be the worst, but it's value really diminishes with less reveal effects.

[r3dd09]

The legacy event I went to didn't trigger due to most of the players went to a ptq, either way. I played against all in infect and goblins.

Goblins was pretty easy, probably because he's new with the deck. * had vial out and a wasteland as his only land, yet didn't wasteland my only land, I won the turn after he should have wasteland me*

All in infect was basically who's going to combo first it seemed like. His maindeck daze caught me off guard at first, but the next games I got him with a turn 2 win both times, obviously playing around daze... which he had.

[Endure2004]

I'm also trying out the therapies, but the list I've been playing around with might be slightly more controversial:

4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 LED
4 lotus petal
3 chrome mox
4 infernal tutor
4 burning wish
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 ponder
4 duress
3 cabal therapy
1 ad nauseam
1 empty the warrens

4 fetches
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
3 gemstone mine
2 city of brass

SB
1 past in flames
1 time spiral / diminishing returns
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 hull breach
1 grapeshot
1 cabal therapy
3 abrupt decay
2 karakas
3 xantid swarm

My line of reasoning for the therapy switch from silence maindeck include:
1. Therapy is easier to cast, and you can cast it before the combo turn, freeing up extra mana for the combo turn.
2. You can cast it off dark ritual.
3. It makes empty the warrens better (flashback after the goblins to ensure the win)
4. It's not a dead draw against non-blue decks.

That said, I'm still trying it out and I'm not sure whether it is right or not. The testing has gone well, and the plan post board is to bring in the 3 xantid swarms against the blue decks, which should invalidate all their counterspells / spell pierces / whatever.

I'm still trying to figure out my testing what situations DR is good in and what time spiral is good in. My findings include:
1. Diminishing returns is better when you need to refill your hand, but more often than not you have to pass the turn afterwards, giving your opponent time to interact with his new hand.
2. Time spiral is worse at that, but better used as a storm engine that generates a lot of mana when it resolves, making it more likely than diminishing returns to kill the opponent on the spot when you untap and draw your new seven.
3. This makes time spiral probably better against the aggressive non-blue decks and decks that give you a lot of set up time and let you build up lands.
4. Diminishing returns is better when you mulligan some and need it to restock your hand.
5. Diminishing returns is better against discard decks that attack your hand because you need a cheap way to refill.

Also, I had a question... Was their a consensus a while back to run 3 fetches and 4 gemstone mine instead of 4 fetches 3 mine?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Also, I had a question... Was their a consensus a while back to run 3 fetches and 4 gemstone mine instead of 4 fetches 3 mine?

Casting Silence is a cool thing.

[Bryant Cook]

My line of reasoning for the therapy switch from silence maindeck include:
1. Therapy is easier to cast, and you can cast it before the combo turn, freeing up extra mana for the combo turn.
2. You can cast it off dark ritual.
3. It makes empty the warrens better (flashback after the goblins to ensure the win)
4. It's not a dead draw against non-blue decks.

That said, I'm still trying it out and I'm not sure whether it is right or not. The testing has gone well, and the plan post board is to bring in the 3 xantid swarms against the blue decks, which should invalidate all their counterspells / spell pierces / whatever.


1.) The counter argument is that now you're putting them on the live draw. Did they draw Spell Pierce/Force of Will?
2.) It's much more vulnerable to hiding effects. (Brainstorm/Sensei's Diving Top)
3.) Can't psuedo "Time Walk" he opponent.
4.) Cards like Stifle, Envelope, REB/BEB, Surgical Extraction, Spell Snare, and others become a real card against you.

Don't get me wrong, I like Therapy, but I feel that Silence is too good to cut.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Your opponent is more likely to let Therapy resolve than Duress, IMO cause opponents are baddies.

Edit: Loving the shit out of Silence/Therapy.

[KevinTrudeau]

1.) The counter argument is that now you're putting them on the live draw. Did they draw Spell Pierce/Force of Will?
2.) It's much more vulnerable to hiding effects. (Brainstorm/Sensei's Diving Top)
3.) Can't psuedo "Time Walk" he opponent.
4.) Cards like Stifle, Envelope, REB/BEB, Surgical Extraction, Spell Snare, and others become a real card against you.

Don't get me wrong, I like Therapy, but I feel that Silence is too good to cut.

Indeed; lest we not forget about (concerning 'hiding' effects'), in addition to BS/SDT, Snapcaster Mage (in resp. to Therapy)—> Spell Pierce, Counterspell, etc. Chant effects are simply a cut above on a combo turn.

[Endure2004]

1.) The counter argument is that now you're putting them on the live draw. Did they draw Spell Pierce/Force of Will?
2.) It's much more vulnerable to hiding effects. (Brainstorm/Sensei's Diving Top)
3.) Can't psuedo "Time Walk" he opponent.
4.) Cards like Stifle, Envelope, REB/BEB, Surgical Extraction, Spell Snare, and others become a real card against you.

Don't get me wrong, I like Therapy, but I feel that Silence is too good to cut.

1. True, but having a therapy in the yard and 1/2 counterspells in their yard vs. having a silence in hand and them having 1/2 counterspells in hand is pretty close. Silence is a better general answer to all things counterspell-ish, but it always has to be cast on the combo turn. I think this point is decently close...
2. Agreed.
3. How valuable is this effect?
4. Many of those cards can be negated by the 3 sideboard xantid swarms that are freed up by therapy slots in the board.

Not arguing or saying that you're wrong or anything, just encouraging healthy discussion :)

[Bryant Cook]

1. True, but having a therapy in the yard and 1/2 counterspells in their yard vs. having a silence in hand and them having 1/2 counterspells in hand is pretty close. Silence is a better general answer to all things counterspell-ish, but it always has to be cast on the combo turn. I think this point is decently close...
2. Agreed.
3. How valuable is this effect?
4. Many of those cards can be negated by the 3 sideboard xantid swarms that are freed up by therapy slots in the board.

Not arguing or saying that you're wrong or anything, just encouraging healthy discussion :)

1.) Therapy in the yard has little or no value. If you can Flashback Cabal Therapy, you're probably already in good shape (You have Goblins or Bees).
2.) Good.
3.) It's incredible, you haven't done this yet?
4.) Look at what decks are likely to bring in those cards. Tempo variants mostly, Xantid is traditionally not very good in those match-ups.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

They're not bees.

[Bryant Cook]

Cook’s Kitchen – Storm Hands I (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52233/cooks-kitchen-storm-hands-i)

They're definitely bees.

[Squirrel]

Hand IV – TES is on the draw against RUG Delver/Canadian Threshold. You probed (-18) and then said Delver attacks you for three to 17. Not a big deal, just mentioned it.

Those scenarios and thoughts are well written and nice to know, as well as the Ant thoughts/scenarios of Mon, Goblin Chief. Thanks, Mr. Cook.

[joemauer]

Cook’s Kitchen – Storm Hands I (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52233/cooks-kitchen-storm-hands-i)

They're definitely bees.

I enjoyed the article.

Only one nitpick, hand three is overly fictional. Two reasons why. Firstly, you wouldn't ever go that low with an Ad Nauseum in a real game. Secondly, there would have been a lot more showboating with all that mana floating.

Thanks for the article.

[Final Fortune]

1.) The counter argument is that now you're putting them on the live draw. Did they draw Spell Pierce/Force of Will?
2.) It's much more vulnerable to hiding effects. (Brainstorm/Sensei's Diving Top)
3.) Can't psuedo "Time Walk" he opponent.
4.) Cards like Stifle, Envelope, REB/BEB, Surgical Extraction, Spell Snare, and others become a real card against you.

Don't get me wrong, I like Therapy, but I feel that Silence is too good to cut.

The merrits of Silence vs Cabal Therapy aside, one of the arguments for Cabal Therapy is that even if Cabal Therapy is a weaker disruption spell its a more mana efficient disruption spell, which opens the door to playing a 3 color deck, more fetch lands and basic lands to increase the efficiency of Brainstorm and the resiliency vs Wasteland.

I'm rather fond of Silence's synergy with Diminishing Returns and easy access to green mana for Xantid Swarms and Abrupt Decays, but maybe there's benefits to using Cabal Therapy that go beyond a direct comparison between it and Silence.

[End3r000]

The merrits of Silence vs Cabal Therapy aside, one of the arguments for Cabal Therapy is that even if Cabal Therapy is a weaker disruption spell its a more mana efficient disruption spell, which opens the door to playing a 3 color deck, more fetch lands and basic lands to increase the efficiency of Brainstorm and the resiliency vs Wasteland.

I'm rather fond of Silence's synergy with Diminishing Returns and easy access to green mana for Xantid Swarms and Abrupt Decays, but maybe there's benefits to using Cabal Therapy that go beyond a direct comparison between it and Silence.

This is exactly the line of reasoning my friends and I have moved UBr and out of 5 color. I was finding with the 4 or less fetch lands there just wasn't enough shuffle effects to really take advantage of Ponder and Brainstorm. With the 4 Probes, 2 Duress, and 1 Inquisition you have more than enough reveal effects for Therapy to hit almost every single time.

[Bryant Cook]

The merrits of Silence vs Cabal Therapy aside, one of the arguments for Cabal Therapy is that even if Cabal Therapy is a weaker disruption spell its a more mana efficient disruption spell, which opens the door to playing a 3 color deck, more fetch lands and basic lands to increase the efficiency of Brainstorm and the resiliency vs Wasteland.

I'm rather fond of Silence's synergy with Diminishing Returns and easy access to green mana for Xantid Swarms and Abrupt Decays, but maybe there's benefits to using Cabal Therapy that go beyond a direct comparison between it and Silence.

Playing a mana base with duals, 3.5 colors, and basics is just as awkward as playing a five color mana base. It's also just as susceptible to Wasteland.

[Final Fortune]

Playing a mana base with duals, 3.5 colors, and basics is just as awkward as playing a five color mana base. It's also just as susceptible to Wasteland.

I meant Fetchlands, Dual Lands and Basics foregoing White and Green altogether, essentially the UBR Tendrils decks where the only judgement call is between whether or not you want to play Cabal Ritual and 0-2 Chrome Mox or Rite of Flame and 3-4 Chrome Mox where you're left choosing between consistency and speed. Without extraneous color requirements, the deck's manabase should be more stable.

Essentially all black disruption lets you reconsider your manabase and subsequently your SB options, I'm not sure that's something TES actually wants, but it's there.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi all,

Regarding this list:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=684187&viewfull=1#post684187

I used same but: -1 Empty +3rd Karakas.

I took then this to a small tournament and won,
1) I won 2-0 to UGR Canadian
2) I won 2-0 to UBW Blade with Inquisition Vendilion
3) I lost to UBG 2-1
4) Won 2-1 To Charbelcher

Key Notes:
The 1) match up was key at the 5th Chants efffects avoiding a hand with Snare, Snare, Stifle and previously took out the FoW
I didin't need the Empty Base neccesary to win vs this. maybe
The only thing I side in was a -1 C.Moxen +1 Karakas as the Chant effects shine here and the Mox is better to use 3 than 4 in these kind of match up.
I find that mosts of the times I don't think my opponent is going to play Karakas I always side +1 = -1 C.Moxen to gain consistency in land drops vs both tempo and control.

The 2) match up was incredible I only have to say I won with a total 3 moxen in hand and a Vendilion in play. My A.N at 8 lifes won me the game leaving me at exact 1 life. Great.
I used in second the dimishing. Great also.

the 3) match up I as always win first game, I misplayed in 2nd game as I expected Pernicius in hand and didn't played Gobbos instead a Diminishing, that was a friend and I know he always plays Perni in base, althoutgh the diminishng was going to win me the game, the boy drew the FoW. and cut the key spell, sometimes happens that even opponent playing bad, he hits the spell to counter. All I can say that in that strange scenario if opponent was playing well I had won this match up, Strange.

In the 4) match up I drew this:
Rite Of Flame, Rite Of Flame, Dark Ritual, I.Tutor, Grim Tutor, GemsTone, Petal. On the draw and drawing Ponder as 8th card. (only match up I drew Grim Tutor in hand.)
This is a First Turn Win my friends, coincidence? maybe, After tournament I tested hands of 6 cards plus Grim Tutor, I think that card is fine, not the best one but fine and can behaves in many roles. Also you can play it on second turn bia Moxen or via D.Ritual to take the LED...
At its worst it creates +1 storm and can filter mana, thing that is important. even post A.N. if needed.

I' ve been having in mind the Reforge the Soul when playing those match ups, but the feeling is that when you have played 2 LEDs to play the Diminishing you almost always want these LEDs back up in the Deck, and with Reforge this does not happen, also I like to play Moxen printing things that you see useless post Diminishng to avoid drawing them again (lands, mox->Orims, etc.)
The fact is that at least 7 (cost 4 plus 3 to get 60% percentages) mana is neccessary to make Diminishing good in the turn you cast it to win that same turn,
I think with Reforge you simply have less chance of winning because of Not Suffling effect and -1 mana.

What I think I'm going to test is Epic Experiment as I'd like to know the percentages with total 7 mana (same as Diminihing). and makes you draw 5 Free Casting as opossed to drawing 7 Not Free Casting.
Anyone by here has tested this and know Win ratios with 7 or 8 mana?

Edit: Tested recently, this card seems awfull to me... any other agree? But making it a Bomb on its own and not letting the Opponent to draw FoWs seems a great difference. Its a Shame the card doesn't recoup LEDs...

Apart, and regarding this:

Cook’s Kitchen – Storm Hands I (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52233/cooks-kitchen-storm-hands-i)

They're definitely bees.

I see this article as an excuse to going on playing those Gitaxian...
Good luck at beating those RUG and BUG!

[j_rb]

I just want to chime in here with some thoughts after not following this thread for a while due to me getting bored of TES recently. TES in its new form is sexy. Probes are great. MD empty is great. I've concluded this months ago. TES is also very customizable. The deck can be built many, many different ways. So people build it the way you want to play it and fit your playstyle and share with everyone. This is why this archetype is amazing it's super customizable to your preferences. Anyways love the deck love the thread. Keep it civil boys and stay at it because the day I come back to this beloved archetype I'll need the new list =D.

P.S. I'm so glad you fagbois are now playing Reforge the souls, it's the tits.
P.P.S. Swag.

[a boss]

Played this for a Mox. I usually post my report on storm boards but I usually get no feedback.

1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress
3 Silence
2 Orim's Chant
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
4 Chrome Mox
2 Underground Sea
4 Rite of Flame
1 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Karakas
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Telemin Preformance

The sideboard is slightly different from normal. I ran one less chain one telemin. The Telemin was because there was 2 or 3 players I knew would be on storm and hypergenisis (no spirit guide). I cut carpet of flowers last minute. There is a super arrogant storm player, I will call him Dagbar Doubledick, and I refused to lose to him.
Round 1- Maverick
I went to sit down for my match and Dagbar Doubledick informed my opponent I was on "TPS" I told his opponent he was on storm. My opponents game plan didn't change too much because he was on maverick. His opponent was on stone blade and mulliganed to 5 to get Force. He had probe therapy (playing the list that won the European GP). I mulliganed and had a pretty terrible hand of 1 land 2 infernal tutor 1 burning wish 2 chrome mox. I proceeded to only draw lands while he aggressivly wastelanded me. I wished for diminishing returns to try to salavage my hand. His mulligans + his tons of wastelands left neither of us doing much of anything. He got ooze into play and started attacking for 2. I cast diminishing returns floating 2. My hand was more trash, lots of lands, lots of silences and a lone infernal tutor. I chant walked him for 3 turns while he attacked for 2. He cast jitte and attacked. Next turn I drew ad nauseam and cast it at 12 life. I was able to deal 18, and he was at 17, but he remembered jitte and I lost. Game 2 I boarded out duress, silence and a chant and boarded in inquisition, karakas, chain, and decay. I inquisitioned his cannonist and won on turn 2. Game 3 my opener had karakas and I brainstormed turn 1 setting up turn 2 through a thalia or teeg. He played teeg and I won next turn.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 GBx Loam

I kept an opener of mox mox silence brainstorm ponder brainstorm led. It was rather risky. I led with mox imprint ponder which resolved, ponder. I cast brainstorm. I drew gemstone rite of flame ad nauseam. I put back silence and ad nauseam. He played wooded foothills and passeed. I drew silence and played gemstone, led, mox imprint silence, rite of flame. I cast brainstorm and responded with led. He put a card facedown and card to his exile zone bluffing force. It resolved and i cast ad nauseam winning. I sided nothing. My opener was dark ritual, dark ritual, lotus petal, ad nauseam, rite, rite, rite. He played a wooded foothills. I drew something that wasnt mana. He drew and tanked. Then passed. I drew nothing. He fetched and cycled a thicket. Then he drew and told me to go. I drew underground sea and won. He was holding chalice waiting to chalice at 1.

I found out Doubledick had been belched. lol
2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 Rug

Game one I duressed him and his hand was daze, fow, spell pierce. I slow rolled him wishing for return and baiting chant. He let it resolve. Next turn I chanted and he forced. I cast diminishing with 3 floating, he spell pierced. I was dead on next turn to a team. With my new 7 I cast rite of flame. He dazed. I played a land and cast dark ritual, led. He dazed led, I paid. I cast infernal tutor using led to make black and get tendrils. I said storm was 13. He conceded. Tendrils would have been 14. I only had 3 mana. Game 2 I fought through his force, stifil, spell pierce and wastelands eventually going off with past in flames dead on board. He had surgical extraction. Game 3 My opener was petal petal ad nauseam land land inqusition mox. I inqusitioned him and his hand was fow goyf daze spell pierce ponder stifil land. I took his gofy and he didnt draw a threat for six or 7 turns. He played a land and cast delver. He had a fetch in play. I fetched and he predictably stifiled. With him tapped out I played the "Tendrils for the draw" casting petal petal mox tendrils for 8 going to 24. Time was called and his delver flipped. He cast 2 more delvers and they both flipped. He got me to 15 before the game ended in a draw. He asked if I wanted to concede. I said no, because fuck RUG delver.

2-0-1 (5-1-1)

Round 4 Stoneblade
This guy made a very convincing argument that I should concede to him. It was something like "I don't care if its bad for you, its good for me so you should concede so I can draw in" I palyed. He went tundra factory and I played the SUPER long game with. Eventually I had 5 lands in play and after brainstorm my hand was quad chant effect 3 rite of flame wish ad nauseam. I put two chants back and played chant, it resolved. He vialed a batterskull. He attacked I went to 13. On my turn I went chant, resolved then I played rite rite rite wish past in flames rite rite rite ad nauseam and flipped the second ad nauseam as the frist card going to 8. I went to 2 getting double led and casting infernal into tendrils. Game 2 I wished for thoughtsieze and thoughtseized he mana leaked and I paid with a dark ritual. I took force. The rest of his hand was batterskull snapcaster and mystic. He played land 3 and passed. I went for it and he had force (he drew it for turn) Game 3 he played wasteland and passed I cast duress he said "Shit..." and took force of will. He played mystic gate and cast ponder. I brainstomed some bricks. He cast mystic and I was out of cantrips for 3 turns. I went for it and he had force of will. Turns out wasteland mystic does not make blue mana. He cheated there and I was bad for not knowing how lesser know crappy duals work.

2-1-1 (6-3-1)

Round 5 Rug
I went tarn volcanic, "ponder" he asked, ponder I said and cast ponder. He wasted it. I played misty and fetched sea playing brainstorm. On his turn he wasted me. I played gemstone petal rite led wish for empty. He was kinda irritated. He had spell pierce in hand and had put me on rug. The next two games were land delver + 5 counterspells + stifiles and aggressive wastelands. If you have seen the deck play it isn't too hard to imagine.

I found after the fact Dagbar had got paired against my friend running standard bant with 2 flusterstorms 4 fow main. Side board crypts and a set of mindbreak traps. He easily beat Dagbar despite his claim that "Only bad storm players lose to mindbreak trap"

Props:
Bryant for such a sweet deck
Jeff Cosgrove's wife for sweet muffins
Iven for killing ant with a (lets be honest) terrible deck running an assload of hate

slops:
Dagbar Doubledick for being a Douchbag
Stoneblade player for cheating with mystic gate
iven for not getting me on the correct high way and letting me drive an hour in the complete opposite direction.
Dagbar for being a tool box

Seriously this guy ad nauseamed to 1 at the last open and used a fetch land then said he was at 2 conceding when he opponent started to call a judge. He has also tried to use led as black lotus in the past.

[Asthereal]

Hard luck on the matchups and opposing topdecks.

BTW, have you tried swapping the main deck Tendrils for an Empty the Warrens?
Tendrils almost always is a bad card to draw, but EtW is actually a pretty sweet card to draw.
If you cast Ad Nauseam, you can always Wish for the Tendrils, or Tutor for Wish into Tendrils.

And one comment for round 3: Against RUG Delver the best win is usually a quick Empty the Warrens.
Yet you Wished for Returns game 1. Perhaps going for EtW was better, but you didn't mention the game state, so I'm not sure. :wink:

[Larzdk]

A boss, you don't have a judge at your gamestore? Cause the douchebag mcdouchy telling your opponent what you're playing is textbook "Outside Assistance"

[Asthereal]

+1 to that. That's actually a DQ, if I remember correctly.
Hadn't thought of that myself yet. Perhaps next time you can have mr Douchbag removed from the tourney. :laugh:

[Larzdk]

+1 to that. That's actually a DQ, if I remember correctly.
Hadn't thought of that myself yet. Perhaps next time you can have mr Douchbag removed from the tourney. :laugh:

Nah, it's a matchloss - but the guy might just get enraged enough to leave if he's as shady as descriped.

[a boss]

Hard luck on the matchups and opposing topdecks.

BTW, have you tried swapping the main deck Tendrils for an Empty the Warrens?
Tendrils almost always is a bad card to draw, but EtW is actually a pretty sweet card to draw.
If you cast Ad Nauseam, you can always Wish for the Tendrils, or Tutor for Wish into Tendrils.

And one comment for round 3: Against RUG Delver the best win is usually a quick Empty the Warrens.
Yet you Wished for Returns game 1. Perhaps going for EtW was better, but you didn't mention the game state, so I'm not sure. :wink:

I was dead in the air to delver

[a boss]

I like the mainboard tendrils because against counterbalance I can run all my spells into counterspells and top and come out with a lethal storm count. It may just be better though. I have not tested. I also think I am going to start running carpet of flowers over a inquisiton and chain in the board. Xantid Swarm seems over kill when you have duress and silence. I just want to make enough mana around tax master bullshit like daze and spell pierce and wasteland. Belcher player suggested it, I had seen the card mentioned on Bryants list of "Didn't make the cut cards" Luckily maverick seems mostly dead so those karakas might come out. An issue seems to be that legacy decks never die. Zoo is dead but people still play it, solidarity is dead but people still play it. Maverick can be dead but I may need to keep in karakas for a year or two before some new green deck replaces it

[a boss]

There was a judge. I was unaware that was outside information. I had an opponent cheat super hard against me and only later I found out randomly deciding games is a DQ along with the other stuff he did. I never seemed to have people cheat against me and try to fuck me over when I played stuff like affinity. Maybe people just think they need to cheat to consistently beat it. Like the guy with the mystic gate in round 4. I had a guy at an open write the wrong result in round 9 at the st louis open and I caught it. Maybe there is just rampant cheating at high levels of magic I am not used to.

[Asthereal]

Ah there, you didn't metion that your opponent had a lethal Delver at that moment. So you had to try to win.

Only very little people cheat deliberately. Mostly their are not aware of certain rules when they break them, or make impossible plays by accident. For example the guy using colourless mana to activate Mystic Maze. That's probably just carelesness. I just saw a video where one guy tried all abilities from Liliana otV despite his opponent having a Leyline of Sanctity in play. His opponent was paying attention though, and kept reminding him of the Leyline. 'No, you cannot ultimate Liliana because of... / Oh shit, ye're right...' :tongue:

Always good though to pay attention to what the players around you are doing. If it disadvantages you, you should obviously alert a judge.

[Bryant Cook]

I enjoyed the article.

Only one nitpick, hand three is overly fictional. Two reasons why. Firstly, you wouldn't ever go that low with an Ad Nauseum in a real game. Secondly, there would have been a lot more showboating with all that mana floating.

Thanks for the article.

Aha, I really do Ad Nauseam that low. If I know the opponent can't Lightning Bolt me I'm going to draw every last card I can while still being safe. As for showboating, I can't give instructions on that, it's something someone does once they have a feeling for how awesome they are.


I meant Fetchlands, Dual Lands and Basics foregoing White and Green altogether, essentially the UBR Tendrils decks where the only judgement call is between whether or not you want to play Cabal Ritual and 0-2 Chrome Mox or Rite of Flame and 3-4 Chrome Mox where you're left choosing between consistency and speed. Without extraneous color requirements, the deck's manabase should be more stable.

Essentially all black disruption lets you reconsider your manabase and subsequently your SB options, I'm not sure that's something TES actually wants, but it's there.

I didn't see this.

Why would you not play green for Abrupt Decay? I could understand Xantid Swarm leaving, as it's something I've considered recently, but Decay is just too good. Even ANT right now is four colors. Which is something I don't understand, that deck has always prided itself on it's mana base. It's no better than TES's at the moment, while being a slower deck. A mana base with Duals, fetch lands, and basics doesn't actually mean that it's more stable. Awkward mana base draws happen much more frequently than you would expect. Drawing the basic island and one of the two Volcanics in ANT is miserable. Not to mention, with TES you generally have all of the color requirements when you need them to go off. The mana base is designed for TES, not ANT. ANT seems to want to play a longer game, TES is faster, meaning that the disappearance of Gemstone Mine is less relevant. Meeting the correct color requirements within the first three turns is crucial, which is why TES plays 5c lands.

I'm a huge advocate of Silence and Abrupt Decay, I don't see myself cutting these cards anytime soon.

I mentioned it above, I'm considering cutting the two Xantid Swarm for another Abrupt Decay and the forth discard spell (Therapy or Duress). Another thing I've thought of is with Maverick dying down and Karakas being less relevant against the show decks is maybe cutting the two Karakas for the third Decay and a Tropical Island.

Although, I'll admit, I still see a decent amount of Maverick and Reanimator... which has caused me to leave them in my sideboard.

On a side note, yesterdays mail had two Japanese foil Cabal Therapy!

[End3r000]

In regards to ANT's mana base becoming 4 colors, as I said before I feel like both decks are evolving along a similar axis where Abrupt Decay and Cabal Therapy make it into both decks. I personally didn't like the Silence plan, so I cut the 5 color mana base in favor of just going URB, more along the lines of the older ANT decks. With my current list I'm running 7 discard spells with 4 probes, which maximizes the Therapy's, and releases some pressure from your mana. Along with cutting the 5 color lands I upped the fetchland count to get better results from Brainstorm. In the TES list I was running off of here the 3-4 fetches were not cutting it, and dare I say it, Brainstorm was preforming quite poorly. I feel like the 5 color version can fight through a lot of hate better, but it's slower than just going URB.

[Final Fortune]

Aha, I really do Ad Nauseam that low. If I know the opponent can't Lightning Bolt me I'm going to draw every last card I can while still being safe. As for showboating, I can't give instructions on that, it's something someone does once they have a feeling for how awesome they are.



I didn't see this.

Why would you not play green for Abrupt Decay? I could understand Xantid Swarm leaving, as it's something I've considered recently, but Decay is just too good. Even ANT right now is four colors. Which is something I don't understand, that deck has always prided itself on it's mana base. It's no better than TES's at the moment, while being a slower deck. A mana base with Duals, fetch lands, and basics doesn't actually mean that it's more stable. Awkward mana base draws happen much more frequently than you would expect. Drawing the basic island and one of the two Volcanics in ANT is miserable. Not to mention, with TES you generally have all of the color requirements when you need them to go off. The mana base is designed for TES, not ANT. ANT seems to want to play a longer game, TES is faster, meaning that the disappearance of Gemstone Mine is less relevant. Meeting the correct color requirements within the first three turns is crucial, which is why TES plays 5c lands.

I'm a huge advocate of Silence and Abrupt Decay, I don't see myself cutting these cards anytime soon.

I mentioned it above, I'm considering cutting the two Xantid Swarm for another Abrupt Decay and the forth discard spell (Therapy or Duress). Another thing I've thought of is with Maverick dying down and Karakas being less relevant against the show decks is maybe cutting the two Karakas for the third Decay and a Tropical Island.

Although, I'll admit, I still see a decent amount of Maverick and Reanimator... which has caused me to leave them in my sideboard.

On a side note, yesterdays mail had two Japanese foil Cabal Therapy!

I wouldn't play Green because Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay are niche SB cards and I think having a 3 color deck with fetch lands, dual lands and basics is better vs Wasteland than a 4 color deck with fetch lands and dual lands is vs. Counterbalance, the moment I add Silence or SB Xantid Swarms and/or Abrupt Decay I'm just going to play TES and play a manabase with golden lands. What I was trying to say was if you forego Silence, Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay then you have the ability to play a MD that's significantly better vs Aggro control with Wastelands.dec but still have an equivalent, or even faster, fundamental turn by playing Rite of Flame instead of Cabal Ritual and having 7 disruption cards you can cast off Dark Ritual instead of 3.

I honestly have no clue wtf ANT players are doing with their manabases, because unless they're SBing Tropical Island and Bayou along with their Abrupt Decays then they're just destroying their resiliency vs Wasteland. I'm just saying TES is fundamentally a Rite of Flame and Chrome Mox based Storm deck, and that playing more linear MD disruption and SB answers exchanges flexibility for stability vs Wasteland because you no longer need White and Green mana and therefore no longer get color screwed.

[JamieW89]

I wouldn't play Green because Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay are niche SB cards and I think having a 3 color deck with fetch lands, dual lands and basics is better vs Wasteland than a 4 color deck with fetch lands and dual lands is vs. Counterbalance, the moment I add Silence or SB Xantid Swarms and/or Abrupt Decay I'm just going to play TES and play a manabase with golden lands. What I was trying to say was if you forego Silence, Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay then you have the ability to play a MD that's significantly better vs Aggro control with Wastelands.dec but still have an equivalent, or even faster, fundamental turn by playing Rite of Flame instead of Cabal Ritual and having 7 disruption cards you can cast off Dark Ritual instead of 3.

I honestly have no clue wtf ANT players are doing with their manabases, because unless they're SBing Tropical Island and Bayou along with their Abrupt Decays then they're just destroying their resiliency vs Wasteland. I'm just saying TES is fundamentally a Rite of Flame and Chrome Mox based Storm deck, and that playing more linear MD disruption and SB answers exchanges flexibility for stability vs Wasteland because you no longer need White and Green mana and therefore no longer get color screwed.

I'm only boarding in a 4th color in ANT in UBr(g) and UBw(g) versions which run 1-2 green duals and 3-4 decays sb. Green replaces white against some aggro decks and the manabase isn't an issue against countertop.

[vercadium]

I agree that if you want to add a forth or fifth colour to a storm deck then you go with 5c lands. The only question seems to be whether or not the Green and White cards are enough to justify this. I believe they are, though I can see the appeal of a fetch/dual/basic mana base if the deck in question only runs 3 colours (UBR).

Bryant, now that you have had some time to test it, are you a proponent of Reforge the Soul over Diminishing Returns? Or do you remain undecided/require further testing?

[Bryant Cook]

In regards to ANT's mana base becoming 4 colors, as I said before I feel like both decks are evolving along a similar axis where Abrupt Decay and Cabal Therapy make it into both decks. I personally didn't like the Silence plan, so I cut the 5 color mana base in favor of just going URB, more along the lines of the older ANT decks. With my current list I'm running 7 discard spells with 4 probes, which maximizes the Therapy's, and releases some pressure from your mana. Along with cutting the 5 color lands I upped the fetchland count to get better results from Brainstorm. In the TES list I was running off of here the 3-4 fetches were not cutting it, and dare I say it, Brainstorm was preforming quite poorly. I feel like the 5 color version can fight through a lot of hate better, but it's slower than just going URB.


I wouldn't play Green because Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay are niche SB cards and I think having a 3 color deck with fetch lands, dual lands and basics is better vs Wasteland than a 4 color deck with fetch lands and dual lands is vs. Counterbalance, the moment I add Silence or SB Xantid Swarms and/or Abrupt Decay I'm just going to play TES and play a manabase with golden lands. What I was trying to say was if you forego Silence, Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay then you have the ability to play a MD that's significantly better vs Aggro control with Wastelands.dec but still have an equivalent, or even faster, fundamental turn by playing Rite of Flame instead of Cabal Ritual and having 7 disruption cards you can cast off Dark Ritual instead of 3.

I honestly have no clue wtf ANT players are doing with their manabases, because unless they're SBing Tropical Island and Bayou along with their Abrupt Decays then they're just destroying their resiliency vs Wasteland. I'm just saying TES is fundamentally a Rite of Flame and Chrome Mox based Storm deck, and that playing more linear MD disruption and SB answers exchanges flexibility for stability vs Wasteland because you no longer need White and Green mana and therefore no longer get color screwed.

I understand what both of you are saying, but you have to keep in mind that having a manabase with Basics isn't going to guarantee wins against tempo decks. Wasteland still hurts you by cutting off colored sources. Do you know how useless basic Island is on the combo turn? Might as well be Darksteel Citadel. Having Silence against Stifle, Snare, REB, BEB, Envelop, and Surgical holds more value in my eyes than a supposedly more "stable" manabase. I'm not a believer in that basics equal stability in combo. They can be just as dangerous as duals. Losing Silence really hurts a lot of the tempo and control match-ups, anyone who has ever beaten RUG with TES knows how crucial Silence is.

If I'm already on the Silence plan, there's no reason not to play Decay.

I don't believe that I'm sacrificing much, if anything, by continuing to play Silence and Decay.


I agree that if you want to add a forth or fifth colour to a storm deck then you go with 5c lands. The only question seems to be whether or not the Green and White cards are enough to justify this. I believe they are, though I can see the appeal of a fetch/dual/basic mana base if the deck in question only runs 3 colours (UBR).

Bryant, now that you have had some time to test it, are you a proponent of Reforge the Soul over Diminishing Returns? Or do you remain undecided/require further testing?
I've had moments when Reforge and Return were both insanely good in different ways. I'm still on Reforge, but I haven't played any high level magic with either. I plan on running Reforge at SCG Baltimore next weekend.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

...anyone who has ever beaten RUG with TES knows how crucial Silence is.

The moment when you fire off a Duress -- they blow their load of soft counters -- and Silence next turn is priceless.

They always get so mad.

[thefringthing]

Planning to play the list in the first post cold this weekend (after playing ANT for a bit). I thought Bryant said his "Truths would never leave"? First time for everything, I guess.

Someone want to give me a real quick primer on the Therapy/Decay sideboard?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Planning to play the list in the first post cold this weekend (after playing ANT for a bit). I thought Bryant said his "Truths would never leave"? First time for everything, I guess.

Someone want to give me a real quick primer on the Therapy/Decay sideboard?

OP.

[Bryant Cook]

Planning to play the list in the first post cold this weekend (after playing ANT for a bit). I thought Bryant said his "Truths would never leave"? First time for everything, I guess.

Someone want to give me a real quick primer on the Therapy/Decay sideboard?

Taking things out of context, nice. I said I didn't see Truth leaving anytime soon, regarding people playing Chain of Vapor. Abrupt Decay changed things.

Due to your obnoxiousness, I won't be helping you.

[thefringthing]

The quote was just teasing. It's pretty clear that if you swapped Echoing Truth for Abrupt Decay then you must think Decay does the same job better (or more jobs just as well, or both) and I agree.

Tournament went awfully. Played Blue-Red Landstill, and RUG Delver twice. Lost all three before dropping. Both Delver players were drooling idiots. Died to Ad Nauseam twice in one match, once from 20 life. Won a game against Landstill only due to a poor Brainstorm by my opponent. Room was full of Counterbalances and devoid of Thalias. I don't think 12 lands with 3 fetches gives any realistic hope of consistently beating opposing Wastelands.

[Bryant Cook]

I spent today rewriting some of the opening post as well as the sideboarding guide, sample hands, links. Pretty much everything. Check it out.

EDIT: Not that any of you care or are wondering, but holy crap! The TES opening post is 32 pages in word.