[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Megadeus]

How many miracle decks are still on RIP Helm combo? The ones around here abandoned it I think.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

All of them.

[Bryant Cook]

How To Count To Ten: GP Denver Edition by Ari Lax (Ari Lax) (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25398_How-To-Count-To-Ten-GP-Denver-Edition.html)

I don't agree necessarily agree with his list, but it was a decent read and it's about TES!

[Bryant Cook]

(I apologize for the double post)

After reading Ari's article and having a day to digest, it's made me realize it's time to make a change. Even if I don't agree with some of the changes he's made to the list, he hit the nail on the head with one of his adjustments.

Maverick is dying. Anyone who was a die-hard is more than likely playing Junk at the moment or continuing to play a currently bad deck. Reanimator has been hated out by Deathrite Shaman and Sneak Show's numbers are lower than they once were. Why are we still playing Karakas?

Mother of Runes isn't a thing anymore, sure Karakas still answers Gaddock Teeg and Thalia but so does Abrupt Decay. I know the card I'm about to mention isn't revolutionary or even new, but I think in the current metagame it's the appropriate card for the sideboard over Karakas and that's Chain of Vapor. Normally I would be pushing Echoing Truth here, however, we have Abrupt Decay nowadays to take care of Chalice decks. This slot is for hate bears initially so it only makes since to play the most versatile card that's effective against them and that's Chain. The mana cost of two against Thalia is reasonable while having the option of bouncing Ethersworn Canonist or even Leyline of Sanctity.

What does this mean for Hull Breach? Well, it's probably going to go back to being Shattering Spree for the time being or until someone/something changes my mind.

I highly recommend making this change as people are aware of Storm, especially those of you attending GP: Denver. The hate for storm is going to be diverse now that it's on peoples radar. No combo player wants that awkward situation where Solitary Confinement, Ethersworn, Lodestone Golem, or Leyline of Sanctity is stopping them from winning the game.

My current sideboard is below (Entire list on the opening post).


3 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns

[phazonmutant]

[...] I highly recommend making this change as people are aware of Storm, especially those of you attending GP: Denver. The hate for storm is going to be diverse now that it's on peoples radar. No combo player wants that awkward situation where Solitary Confinement, Ethersworn, Lodestone Golem, or Leyline of Sanctity is stopping them from winning the game.


I asked the thread in a previous post how often they experience people bringing in hate for goblins and didn't really get a solid answer. Empty still seems great g1, but b/g/x usually have some combination of EPlague, Deed, or Pulse in the board, Thresh has Rough // Tumble, UW has Terminus and EE, so I've wanted to be able to board in a Tendrils a few times and still be able to wish for it.

Is it time to make room for a second tendrils in the 75? Not sure if that means replacing the Empty like Ari and Koby or cutting an AD or an engine for the Tendrils.

[Koby]

I want to reiterate that my performance with the deck was a colossal fluke. I faced three blue decks on the day:

BUG-still (no clock)
Bant (2 FoW, 1 Spell Pierce maindeck, 3 more counters SB)
Sneak Show (got punished and lost)

Having access to both Storm spells is likely important, and also against Extirpate effects.

FWIW, I wouldn't run either Storm deck without Karakas. There are still hold-overs for Cheaters of Legendary Fatties that love to play them. Griselbrand is still a problem. Silence helps, but having another way to stop/slow them down is important too.

@Bryant, I agree with adding Chains, but not taking out all the Karakas. Remember that some Goblin decks still pack Thalia to answer Combo/RUG.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I asked the thread in a previous post how often they experience people bringing in hate for goblins and didn't really get a solid answer. Empty still seems great g1, but b/g/x usually have some combination of EPlague, Deed, or Pulse in the board, Thresh has Rough // Tumble, UW has Terminus and EE, so I've wanted to be able to board in a Tendrils a few times and still be able to wish for it.

Is it time to make room for a second tendrils in the 75? Not sure if that means replacing the Empty like Ari and Koby or cutting an AD or an engine for the Tendrils.

Empty is generally enough against BG/x decks game one. If you suspect EE, pulse, deed, etc., board it out for Tendrils every game two.

I thought about having Empty and Tendrils in the deck again, but it's just not necessary.


I want to reiterate that my performance with the deck was a colossal fluke.

This is true... 5-0 against non-blue decks. Rough life. :wink:

[Bryant Cook]

I asked the thread in a previous post how often they experience people bringing in hate for goblins and didn't really get a solid answer. Empty still seems great g1, but b/g/x usually have some combination of EPlague, Deed, or Pulse in the board, Thresh has Rough // Tumble, UW has Terminus and EE, so I've wanted to be able to board in a Tendrils a few times and still be able to wish for it.

Is it time to make room for a second tendrils in the 75? Not sure if that means replacing the Empty like Ari and Koby or cutting an AD or an engine for the Tendrils.


I want to reiterate that my performance with the deck was a colossal fluke. I faced three blue decks on the day:

BUG-still (no clock)
Bant (2 FoW, 1 Spell Pierce maindeck, 3 more counters SB)
Sneak Show (got punished and lost)

Having access to both Storm spells is likely important, and also against Extirpate effects.

FWIW, I wouldn't run either Storm deck without Karakas. There are still hold-overs for Cheaters of Legendary Fatties that love to play them. Griselbrand is still a problem. Silence helps, but having another way to stop/slow them down is important too.

@Bryant, I agree with adding Chains, but not taking out all the Karakas. Remember that some Goblin decks still pack Thalia to answer Combo/RUG.

For Goblins you sideboard like this:

-4 Silence, -3 Duress
+3 Cabal Therapy, +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor

This covers both Mind Break Trap and Thalia.

@Koby - Do you normally sideboard in Karakas against Goblins? I never did unless I knew that they already had it. I would be boarding Chain in already, being a better catch-all answer to begin with. Which would allow for less potential blow-outs.

Also, Karakas is just underwhelming against Show and Tell decks. It doesn't work well against Omniscience or Sneak Attack. It's great against Show and Tell IF they drop Emrakul, that's it. If they drop Grisel they still get to Yawgmoth's Bargain which will ultimately lead to our eventual loss.

@ phazonmuant - I'm not concerned with a second Tendrils, the main deck Warrens has been phenomenal. I never want a second copy of Tendrils ever, if you're facing a deck where Warrens isn't optimal and they have Surgical/Extripate effects, side in Tendrils or even Grapeshot. Siding in Grapeshot against decks with Surgical is fine since it's less damage off of Ad Nauseam and Tendrils is generally only cast after Ad Nauseam anyway. It requires slightly more work but doesn't take up a precious sideboard slot with a worthless card.

These Warrens answers that you're suggesting aren't even common outside of Terminus. Rough/Tumble is usually a single copy in a sideboard, possibly two. The odds are in your favor. As for the BUG answers, if they want to sideboard in Engineered Plagues against combo then we just won the lottery. Deed doesn't really work well with Deathrite Shamans and hasn't been seeing a whole lot of play because of it. As for Pulse it suffers the same problem that Rough/Tumble does against us and that is that there are too few copies for us to make it worth consideration.

[Koby]

For Goblins you sideboard like this:

-4 Silence, -3 Duress
+3 Cabal Therapy, +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor

This covers both Mind Break Trap and Thalia.

@Koby - Do you normally sideboard in Karakas against Goblins? I never did unless I knew that they already had it. I would be boarding Chain in already, being a better catch-all answer to begin with. Which would allow for less potential blow-outs.

Also, Karakas is just underwhelming against Show and Tell decks. It doesn't work well against Omniscience or Sneak Attack. It's great against Show and Tell IF they drop Emrakul, that's it. If they drop Grisel they still get to Yawgmoth's Bargain which will ultimately lead to our eventual loss.

If I see Plateau, then I'm definitely sure that they are playing Thalia, and board appropriately. We need the extra mana vs their denial regardless.

Vs Sneak Attack, Karakas still stops Griselbrand from attacking. It's a long-shot, but better than letting it connect. Imagine in my camera match vs Richard Centanni, if one of my Duress was instead a Cabal Therapy -> Emrakul. He would have been locked out from combat. Stopping the S&T -> fattie plan still beats about a third of their plays. I think Ari Lax has understated how much Sneak Show will be present. I think it's going to be higher than he expects it.

[Bryant Cook]

If I see Plateau, then I'm definitely sure that they are playing Thalia, and board appropriately. We need the extra mana vs their denial regardless.

Vs Sneak Attack, Karakas still stops Griselbrand from attacking. It's a long-shot, but better than letting it connect. Imagine in my camera match vs Richard Centanni, if one of my Duress was instead a Cabal Therapy -> Emrakul. He would have been locked out from combat. Stopping the S&T -> fattie plan still beats about a third of their plays. I think Ari Lax has understated how much Sneak Show will be present. I think it's going to be higher than he expects it.

Sure, if you see Plateau. Most of the time you won't if that player has the slightest bit of intelligence. One could argue than Chaining their Aether Vial would be more relevant to slow them down.

How exactly does Karakas stop Sneak Attack attacks? All they need is another red source. Karakas is incredibly weak against them, I stand by it!

EDIT: Ah, you wait for them to declare then bounce. Got it. Either way, it's still a crappy play. Drawing fourteen cards will likely find them an Emrakul and a red source.

[Koby]

Sure, if you see Plateau. Most of the time you won't if that player has the slightest bit of intelligence. One could argue than Chaining their Aether Vial would be more relevant to slow them down.

How exactly does Karakas stop Sneak Attack attacks? All they need is another red source. Karakas is incredibly weak against them, I stand by it!

EDIT: Ah, you wait for them to declare then bounce. Got it. Either way, it's still a crappy play. Drawing fourteen cards will likely find them an Emrakul and a red source.

I grant you that it hardly matters much. If we take TCdeck's top placing decks as a barometer of the metagame - then Sneak Attack and OmniTell comprise only 7% of the metagame.

[Bryant Cook]

I grant you that it hardly matters much. If we take TCdeck's top placing decks as a barometer of the metagame - then Sneak Attack and OmniTell comprise only 7% of the metagame.

Wouldn't it make more sense to play Chain at this point?

[Koby]

Wouldn't it make more sense to play Chain at this point?

Chain of Vapor doesn't help in this matchup, however. We can abandon all hope, which is fine - then, Chain > Karakas here and frees up space for other matchups.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Xantid Swarm :(

[Bryant Cook]

Chain of Vapor doesn't help in this matchup, however. We can abandon all hope, which is fine - then, Chain > Karakas here and frees up space for other matchups.

Why does it need to have to help against a deck that is such a small fraction of the metagame? Having a wider range of targets I see as being more useful for the time being.

Kirby, the same applies for Xantid Swarm.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533690_4004244067380_123186983_n.jpg

2-1'd my opponent, who played T.E.S.

Game one he killed me on turn one. Game two I won through his two Karakas. Game three he couldn't beat a ninja Karakas.

[Koby]

2-1'd my opponent, who played T.E.S.

Game one he killed me on turn one. Game two I won through his two Karakas. Game three he couldn't beat a ninja Karakas.

Traitor.

[HoneyT]

Traitor.

To be fair, I told him what to do.

[AriLax]

First off, I don't think Karakas is necessary to fight Show and Tell decks. If anything, it takes up disruption slots I would rather use on things that can attack their counters or combo as necessary like Thoughtseize. Note that I don't mean sideboard slots, I mean post-board deck slots as you can't really go too high on non-combo cards. I would prefer to not use two of my deck slots on a card that is mostly reactive and situational (as opposed to even Silence, which proactively can attack their ability to Show and Tell in a relevant time frame as well as reactively protect against counters).

Played a side event at GP Indy with the TES list from my article minus Chains, plus Karakas (Bryant's with MD Tendrils over Empty, no PiF, Pyroclasm over Grapeshot, and 1 Seize over 1 Cabal Therapy).

Preemptive highlight: I found games where in theory I wanted both PiF and Grapeshot in my board for the first time ever.

Rd 1: ANT
I turn 2 him game one on the play after assuming his fetch Sea + main phase Brainstorm meant a mirror. Game two he Therapies not Silence, sees 2, and by the time he gets around to the next Therapy I rip what I need to win.

1-0

Rd 2: UR Delver
Game one his hand is Forceless and I make 10 Goblins. He Bolts two and draws a Goblin Guide to block. He ends up at 3 with the Guide to my 3 Goblins and Brainstorms for an out. He hits 3 lands and can't fetch out. In theory he could have stabilized at 2 with a removal spell and a Grapeshot in the board would have let me kill off 3 lands or in one turn, so that makes one vote for that card lifetime. Game two he Forces a Silence and dies.

2-0

Rd 3: Doomsday

G1 he Duresses my mana while I Duress his Chant + cantrips, leaving him with Wish + mana. I Wish for Dim Ret and pass, he opts to try and go off with Wish for Time Spiral. He bricks, I don't. If I had SB PiF I would have Wished for that and passed over Dim Ret, as I had IT, 2x Dark Rit, and a Rite. As I only had IGG, couldn't go off into his in grave Chant. Similar to the Grapeshot thing in Rd2 it ended up not mattering but one vote in the tally. G2 he Silenced, I Silenced in response then killed him.

3-0

Rd 4: Forceless BUG (Jarvis Yu)

G1 he mulls to 5 looking for interaction and I win with an IGG loop to my in hand Tendrils. G2 he keeps a hand with Seize + a clock and I just make 14 Goblins on turn 3.

4-0

Double draw into top 8, 2nd seed so I'm on the play vs. not Gerry.

Top 8: Miracles (Alex Binek)

G1 I turn two him with Wish for Seize. His hand had Force, CB, blue card. G2 I keep a no lander with 2 LED, Brainstorm on turn one hoping to go off, and hit into a Dim Ret. I hit a reasonable hand but he has a Force, and over the course of a few turns I Wish for both Therapies and win when he taps out for Jace.

5-0

Top 4: Esperblade (Matt Hoey)

G1 he Brainstorms in response to a Duress, hides a Counterspell, and I run into it the next turn and die. Probably could have waited on either the Duress or combo, he left himself with 6 lands and a Seize so his top card is obviously good. G2 I have him dead to any gas spell and brick over multiple turns/cantrips. Happens.

5-1

Didn't play a lot of people who did things that mattered, but then again welcome to the format.

[jin]

Regarding Karakas, I feel that it is also less versatile than Chain of Vapors. Actually, with my list I run 2x Decay and 3x Chain of Vapors. Does this set up add more versatility to the match ups? I'm thinking of boarding like how you used to board in the Pyroblasts, 2x and 2x against UW Miracle. What do you think?

[Pelikanudo]

First off, I don't think Karakas is necessary to fight Show and Tell decks. If anything, it takes up disruption slots I would rather use on things that can attack their counters or combo as necessary like Thoughtseize. Note that I don't mean sideboard slots, I mean post-board deck slots as you can't really go too high on non-combo cards. I would prefer to not use two of my deck slots on a card that is mostly reactive and situational (as opposed to even Silence, which proactively can attack their ability to Show and Tell in a relevant time frame as well as reactively protect against counters).

Played a side event at GP Indy with the TES list from my article minus Chains, plus Karakas (Bryant's with MD Tendrils over Empty, no PiF, Pyroclasm over Grapeshot, and 1 Seize over 1 Cabal Therapy).

Preemptive highlight: I found games where in theory I wanted both PiF and Grapeshot in my board for the first time ever.

Rd 1: ANT
I turn 2 him game one on the play after assuming his fetch Sea + main phase Brainstorm meant a mirror. Game two he Therapies not Silence, sees 2, and by the time he gets around to the next Therapy I rip what I need to win.

1-0

Rd 2: UR Delver
Game one his hand is Forceless and I make 10 Goblins. He Bolts two and draws a Goblin Guide to block. He ends up at 3 with the Guide to my 3 Goblins and Brainstorms for an out. He hits 3 lands and can't fetch out. In theory he could have stabilized at 2 with a removal spell and a Grapeshot in the board would have let me kill off 3 lands or in one turn, so that makes one vote for that card lifetime. Game two he Forces a Silence and dies.

2-0

Rd 3: Doomsday

G1 he Duresses my mana while I Duress his Chant + cantrips, leaving him with Wish + mana. I Wish for Dim Ret and pass, he opts to try and go off with Wish for Time Spiral. He bricks, I don't. If I had SB PiF I would have Wished for that and passed over Dim Ret, as I had IT, 2x Dark Rit, and a Rite. As I only had IGG, couldn't go off into his in grave Chant. Similar to the Grapeshot thing in Rd2 it ended up not mattering but one vote in the tally. G2 he Silenced, I Silenced in response then killed him.

3-0

Rd 4: Forceless BUG (Jarvis Yu)

G1 he mulls to 5 looking for interaction and I win with an IGG loop to my in hand Tendrils. G2 he keeps a hand with Seize + a clock and I just make 14 Goblins on turn 3.

4-0

Double draw into top 8, 2nd seed so I'm on the play vs. not Gerry.

Top 8: Miracles (Alex Binek)

G1 I turn two him with Wish for Seize. His hand had Force, CB, blue card. G2 I keep a no lander with 2 LED, Brainstorm on turn one hoping to go off, and hit into a Dim Ret. I hit a reasonable hand but he has a Force, and over the course of a few turns I Wish for both Therapies and win when he taps out for Jace.

5-0

Top 4: Esperblade (Matt Hoey)

G1 he Brainstorms in response to a Duress, hides a Counterspell, and I run into it the next turn and die. Probably could have waited on either the Duress or combo, he left himself with 6 lands and a Seize so his top card is obviously good. G2 I have him dead to any gas spell and brick over multiple turns/cantrips. Happens.

5-1

Didn't play a lot of people who did things that mattered, but then again welcome to the format.

AriLax, I'd like to see that list as I can not see the List in the Premium Article,

Also, In my meta I can say there is no many Maverick, BUT Thalia and Gaddock Teeg is seeing lot of play in other kind of Decks, Ex: Mono W, Gobbos, Agro Decks, I can say also that Agro Decks in general have Thalia as unique Efficient card to beat both Combo and Control Decks, also Teeg is has a lot of presence via GSZ -> Teeg

I agree on Reanimator is going to decrease due to D.R.S., but it is still a Deck to have in mind, at least in my meta.
Example: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9768

I realized that vs S&T Karakas is good, but when they land Griselbrand I think it is not as they draw ton of cards, in here Xantid is far superior, The plan I have vs them in 2nd and 3rd games is to let them Ponder , Brainstorm and saving my disruption spells untill that moment so that when playing S&T my disruption effects are going to target mainly their FoWs - moreless

Chain is not good vs chalice Decks, if withching I would prefer by far E.Truth.

[Deviruchi]

I agree on Reanimator is going to decrease due to D.R.S., but it is still a Deck to have in mind, at least in my meta.
Example: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9768

I realized that vs S&T Karakas is good, but when they land Griselbrand I think it is not as they draw ton of cards, in here Xantid is far superior, The plan I have vs them in 2nd and 3rd games is to let them Ponder , Brainstorm and saving my disruption spells untill that moment so that when playing S&T my disruption effects are going to target mainly their FoWs - moreless

If your metagame is still full of Reanimator and S&T then you should adapt and keep Karakas and add those Swarms. There is not much better than resolved Silence in response to Show and Tell, dropping Xantid Swarm and winning next turn.

[Bryant Cook]

Regarding Karakas, I feel that it is also less versatile than Chain of Vapors. Actually, with my list I run 2x Decay and 3x Chain of Vapors. Does this set up add more versatility to the match ups? I'm thinking of boarding like how you used to board in the Pyroblasts, 2x and 2x against UW Miracle. What do you think?

I run the additional Decay because I simply don't like having to wait to draw them against Miracles. Having three improves the matchup dramatically. The additional copy also helps versus the opponents that have adapted Misdirection as an answer to Abrupt Decay. I'm going to recommend against Pyroblast, it's terrible with Lion's Eye Diamond. You're better off running some sort of Discard, additional Chants, or Xantid Swarm.

[felguz]

It will be only a matter of time untill reanimator players start bringing show n tell + city of traitors and petals to by pass the graveyard and cheat fatties into play.. Chains will suffice for a while, but i think we will have to switch back to karakas soon

[phazonmutant]

It will be only a matter of time untill reanimator players start bringing show n tell + city of traitors and petals to by pass the graveyard and cheat fatties into play.. Chains will suffice for a while, but i think we will have to switch back to karakas soon

Dude, that's already happened and the deck is still d-e-d, dead. Show & Tell isn't such a good backup plan when everyone already has answers to it.


I'm not concerned with a second Tendrils, the main deck Warrens has been phenomenal. I never want a second copy of Tendrils ever, if you're facing a deck where Warrens isn't optimal and they have Surgical/Extripate effects, side in Tendrils or even Grapeshot. Siding in Grapeshot against decks with Surgical is fine since it's less damage off of Ad Nauseam and Tendrils is generally only cast after Ad Nauseam anyway. It requires slightly more work but doesn't take up a precious sideboard slot with a worthless card.

I never even considered boarding in Grapeshot! I like it. That sounds like a pretty good reason to have Grapeshot over Clasm in the board.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Dude, that's already happened and the deck is still d-e-d, dead. Show & Tell isn't such a good backup plan when everyone already has answers to it.



I never even considered boarding in Grapeshot! I like it. That sounds like a pretty good reason to have Grapeshot over Clasm in the board.

Let's just use Grapeshot as our main kill spell. Cut Empty and Tendrils.

[a boss]

I do not see gamble on the list of cards that didn't make the cut. Has anyone looked at it again now that past in flames is a card? I tried grim tutor but it seemed to only be worth it in grindy matches and even then the blue player seemed to win by virtue of jace.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I do not see gamble on the list of cards that didn't make the cut. Has anyone looked at it again now that past in flames is a card? I tried grim tutor but it seemed to only be worth it in grindy matches and even then the blue player seemed to win by virtue of jace.

This reads very weird.

Short answer: no.
Long answer: no.

[a boss]

This reads very weird.

Short answer: no.
Long answer: no.

I seem to run into issues where I cam sitting on a ton of lands and a burning wish. Is the correct play diminishing returns here? At a recent 5k my opponents yard was 3 thoughtseize 3 daze 4 fow and I was all in on a burning wish. I really hated to play returns here just to lose all my progress at killing his disruption.

[phazonmutant]

Let's just use Grapeshot as our main kill spell. Cut Empty and Tendrils.

Maximum troll mode, engage

[Koby]

I seem to run into issues where I cam sitting on a ton of lands and a burning wish. Is the correct play diminishing returns here? At a recent 5k my opponents yard was 3 thoughtseize 3 daze 4 fow and I was all in on a burning wish. I really hated to play returns here just to lose all my progress at killing his disruption.

That's a crappy situation to be in. Reforge the Soul would have worked here. Unfortunately, you can't anticipate those situations when you're constructing your deck. DReturns is generally better as a storm enabler. Like Ari Lax and Bryant have mentioned in their storm article and the OP, respectively, don't wait until the last minute to cast DReturns.

[Bryant Cook]

Did I miss something or was Past in Flames an option?

[Koby]

Did I miss something or was Past in Flames an option?

My assumption here is that those were already exhausted, based on what is in the yard.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

...opponents yard was 3 thoughtseize 3 daze 4 fow and I was all in on a burning wish. I really hated to play returns here just to lose all my progress at killing his disruption.

I don't see a real problem here. Three sorceries and four copies of Force of Will.

Draw seven -- chant him -- kill him.

Am I missing something?

[Bryant Cook]

My assumption here is that those were already exhausted, based on what is in the yard.

Could be, it's tough to analyze a situation without all of the details.

Kirby, rough day?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Kirby, rough day?

Need another vacation aka GP Denver, though I don't really consider tournaments relaxing.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Double post, weeee.

Karakas is pretty bad. The only decks that play Karakas + Hatebear also play Wasteland (Maverick/Junk/Death-and-Taxes). If they draw a Wasteland (or Karakas) alongside their hatebear, which is VERY likely -- you're screwed.

Did some sets against these decks and wanted Chain of Vapor every time.

Against those decks Karakas is a sorcery speed bounce spell that won't always hit. When it's good, it's because you got lucky, but we can easily just win one turn one or hit with good therapies.

[Bryant Cook]

What are people's thoughts on the Hull Breach/Shattering Spree/etc. slot?

I'm not sure which would be better for the deck Breach or Spree? Also, are either even needed? If not, what would take their spot?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

What are people's thoughts on the Hull Breach/Shattering Spree/etc. slot?

I'm not sure which would be better for the deck Breach or Spree? Also, are either even needed? If not, what would take their spot?

It's probably the third Chain of Vapor (maybe a Pyroclasm).

[AriLax]

What are people's thoughts on the Hull Breach/Shattering Spree/etc. slot?

I'm not sure which would be better for the deck Breach or Spree? Also, are either even needed? If not, what would take their spot?

I actually don't think I've Wished for that slot in quite a while, but I'm pretty sure that Enchantress + Leyline of Sanctity are both things I want a Wishable answer to. The only time I would want Spree is against Thorn out of Goblins or something similar where the 1 mana could make a difference vs. Wasteland or Port played the turn after I Wish, at which point I've already altered my deck to handle Thorn

Of course, I would rather have Revoke Existence than Hull Breach. I would rather be able to tap an Underground Sea to cast the spell as I honestly can't think of a real scenario I want to use both sides of Hull Breach. The best I've got is Belcher has Leyline and also slams a Belcher w/o the ability to kill on one.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm currently playing Spree but may switch back to Breach. I see myself casting Pyroclasm a significant amount of times less than either of the other two cards.

I've destroyed Canonist and Rest in Peace with Breach before. Both were relevant.

I don't like posting from my phone. Stupid work filters.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm currently playing Spree but may switch back to Breach. I see myself casting Pyroclasm a significant amount of times less than either of the other two cards.

I've destroyed Canonist and Rest in Peace with Breach before. Both were relevant.

I don't like posting from my phone. Stupid work filters.

My work doesn't block The Source, but blocks most PBS websites.

[phazonmutant]

What are people's thoughts on the Hull Breach/Shattering Spree/etc. slot?

I'm not sure which would be better for the deck Breach or Spree? Also, are either even needed? If not, what would take their spot?

Played against white Stax today and forgot to board in Chain, so of course he dropped Leyline of Sanctity t0. Wished for Spree to kill his 3sphere and some other junk, but ended up having to make 30some goblins and pass because I couldn't blow up the Leyline. Hull Breach would have been great. I would have lost a Gemstone mine on 1 to make G, but not a big deal. Obviously it was a mistake to not board in Chain, but there is some comfort in knowing that I have an answer to Enchantments even g1.

Also played against Aggro Loam, boarded in the Grapeshot for the Empty after seeing Pulse main like Bryant suggested, and it was pretty awesome. Drew it and killed a couple creatures (Bob and Deathrite), bought myself like 3 turns, enough to kill him.

[BrettF]

Hi. First time poster but long follower of this thread.

Anyone see this preview card?
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/special/gtc_card_preview/wm_l6qt6jxefc_01.png

better than DimR on turn 1~ wishable slithermuse.

[Vacrix]

No, its not better than Dreturns on turn 1.

How do you suppose your going to Burning Wish into UB? With LED? LED only produces three mana of one color. It doesn't belong in TES or ANT for that matter. Its difficult to produce UB after Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish often enough to want to play this card.

[alekill]

Hi. First time poster but long follower of this thread.

Anyone see this preview card?
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/special/gtc_card_preview/wm_l6qt6jxefc_01.png

better than DimR on turn 1~ wishable slithermuse.

I think that diminishing returns usually does the same thing but is easier to cast. The exile part of diminishing returns is a problem sometimes but I think the ease of casting still outweighs that.

[Asthereal]

The biggest problem with that new Windfall is that we don't reliably get seven cards out of it. After turn two we will on average get four cards, which usually isn't enough to continue the combo to a lethal Tendrils. Returns stays, I'm afraid.

[joemauer]

What are people's thoughts on the Hull Breach/Shattering Spree/etc. slot?

I'm not sure which would be better for the deck Breach or Spree? Also, are either even needed? If not, what would take their spot?

I would pick Hull Breach for it's flexibility. The only time I want to kill multiple artifacts is against something like MUD or Stax, but it seems whenever I need spree against those types of decks then there are too many hurdles preventing me from getting and casting it: CotV, Lodestone Golem, and Trinisphere.

I kind of wish there was something that could get rid of anything like a Vindicate for two mana, namely creatures as well.

Also, I think a one of land in the sideboard is a good idea since we dropped the land count by one. I don't know if it should be Tropical Island(to cast AD) or Karakas(it can randomly win games), but with having Karakas in the SB I have found some matches where an extra land is quite nice.

[Megadeus]

I would pick Hull Breach for it's flexibility. The only time I want to kill multiple artifacts is against something like MUD or Stax, but it seems whenever I need spree against those types of decks then there are too many hurdles preventing me from getting and casting it: CotV, Lodestone Golem, and Trinisphere.

I kind of wish there was something that could get rid of anything like a Vindicate for two mana, namely creatures as well.

Also, I think a one of land in the sideboard is a good idea since we dropped the land count by one. I don't know if it should be Tropical Island(to cast AD) or Karakas(it can randomly win games), but with having Karakas in the SB I have found some matches where an extra land is quite nice.

I know it isnt wishable but Abrupt Decay is 2 mana kill anything

[joemauer]

I know it isn't wishable but Abrupt Decay is 2 mana kill almost anything

Fixed that for you.

Having a wishable answer to artifacts and/or enchantments is a good 'Oh Shit' button to have.

[Megadeus]

Fixed that for you.

Having a wishable answer to artifacts and/or enchantments is a good 'Oh Shit' button to have.

Understandable, but to ask for a two mana Vindicate That is wishable is tough. I think Just having Abrupt Decay should be fine post board. a 2 mana Vindicate would be pretty busted lol.

[a boss]

There was a mox tournament in jacksonville, il. 30 something people showed up. From what a friend told em Emildin usually takes it but he couldn't make it.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress
3 Silence
2 Orim's Chant
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
4 Chrome Mox
2 Underground Sea
4 Rite of Flame
1 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Karakas
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

Round 1 ub delver

I duress him and see daze daze thoughtseize fow delver land brainstorm. He wastes me and in reponce I brainstorm seeing mox mox infernal tutor. I have no lands in hand a mox a few silences and an infernal tutor. I am dead a few turns later. Game 2 he mulligans to 5. I inquisition seeing double thoughtseize, land deathrite brainstorm. I take deathrite and he thoughtseizes seeing tendrils silence infernal ponder. He takes ponder. On his next turn he takes silence and I draw an orims chant. I try to bait a counterspell but he lets it resolve and then he flips delver. I try to go for it but he forces by dark ritual making tendrils a no go.

0-1
(0-2)

round 2 rb discard (?)

I duressed taking blighting his hand was vampire nighthawk, bloodhast and some cards that killed creatures (I didnt note them) He died on turn 3 to an empty the warrens making 22 goblins. Game 2 I cast ad nauseam on turn 2 and he lost.

1-1
(2-2)

round 3 elves
He led with a llanowar elf and I brainstormed finding silence. I played petal in case he played glimpse setting up to win turn 3 with iggy. He played 2 more elves and lost on the next turn to ad nauseam. I sided out silence for abrupt decay. He played turn 1 llanowar elf. I played a land imprinted a ad nauseam to kill llanowar elf he used some elf that had an etb kill artifact on the mox. I infernal tutored for led and won next turn will ill gotten gains.

2-1
(2-2)

round 4 Corey Mustain on esper stoneblade

He mulliganed game 1 to 6. On turn 2 my hand has dark rit dark rit led infernal tutor and I had 2 lands in play. Since I am running 2 ad nauseam I figured he he countered this ad nauseam I could just set up to go for it with infernal tutor. I could also play around daze. I went for it and he had nothing. I cast petal rite rite rite rite burning wish for past in flames rite rite rite rite wish for grapeshot grapeshot past inflames flashback grapeshot. Game 2 he played u sea passed. I played duress off a city of brass, he brainstormed in responce and his hand was clique, lingering souls, jace. For some reason I forgot I could take jace so I took lingering souls. On my turn 1 drew volcanic island and brainstomed off the city. My hand was mox, infernal tutor,duress, volcanic island,ad nauseam, dark ritual, lotus petal, led, burning wish. I put ad nuseam and volcanic on top. I cast mox imprinting infernal tutor and duressed seeing a spell pierce he hid away. I took it and passed. On his turn he played a land and passed. I drew volcanic island and played it he cliqued me at my end step seeing wish and dark rit, he picked wish and I drew ad nauseam. I cast dark rit, ad nauseam at his upkeep and went to 7. He attacked I went to 4. I cast orims chant which he forced pitching jace and I duressed his stifil. I stormed into the tendrils I got off the ad nauseam.

3-1
(6-2)

Round 5 merfolk
I am told I could have drawn into top 8 the guy wanted to play it based on the new play draw stuff. or something. This guy really didn't know what he was doing. I played mox imprinting silence. I silenced and he dazed. next turn I silenced and he dazed He attacked for 6 with master of the pearl trident. I played dark ritual and he forced it killing me next turn. Game 2 he surgiclly extracted by brainstorm saying "I wasnt sure if you were on the iggy thing) I played ponder he dazed I played duress and he dazed. I played silence he forced with nothing in hand and triple lord in play. I cast tendrils him for 10. Tendrils was the 5th spell. He said "there are 5 copies so I take 12 and go to 1." he kept arguing and finally I said "yeah you take 12." he drew wasteland, wasted, I drew petal he attacked I drew grapeshot and then he wasted so I was unable to cast the damn thing.

3-2
(6-4)

props:
Doug White who found the most amazing pizza place ever.
Collin Mustain for validating my deck decisions with match losses (he can write his report later I guess)
Doug White for awesome pizza
Larry for playing a 15 minute high tide turn in commanding imminent winning position and then just saying "I am bored" and conceding.
last round opponent for not drawing in
slops:
The shop was tiny and there was zero room.

[Lemnear]

This report remind me why a) Running mox at a Full set sux b) Gitaxian Probe has more value than additional disruption

[a boss]

This report remind me why a) Running mox at a Full set sux b) Gitaxian Probe has more value than additional disruption

I would rather have every ad nauseam I resolve win than occasionally get stuck with too many moxes. Gitaxian probe would not have been any better than duress or silence all day outside of maybe drawing a extra card against elves guy. I duressed round 1 and took force, round 3 I duressed he brainstomed in repsonce, I duressed to take spell pierce, I chanted he forced and I duressed to take stifil. My last round opponent countered 4 or 5 chant effects in the match. Even against the elves guy I wanted silence against glimpse, but sided it out when I realized he probably didnt have it.

[Asthereal]

I kind of wish there was something that could get rid of anything like a Vindicate for two mana, namely creatures as well.
There is: Eye of Nowhere.
It's terrible, but it does get rid of anything permanentish.

About the non-Probe list and report:
The full set of Moxes does bite you more often than it would save you while Ad Nauseaming. You could use the additional space for 1-2 Simian Spirit Guide. They can be a real help against Daze (surprise effect). Don't be afraid of the life they cost when you reveal them through Ad Nauseam. The mana also helps casting stuff.
Also, an extra Preordain - though slow - can help increase consistency.
Last comment: I would recommend you play main deck Emtpy the Warrens instead of Tendrils. Tendrils is terrible in your opening hand, where EtW is actually really nice to naturally draw into.

[Lemnear]

I would rather have every ad nauseam I resolve win than occasionally get stuck with too many moxes. Gitaxian probe would not have been any better than duress or silence all day outside of maybe drawing a extra card against elves guy. I duressed round 1 and took force, round 3 I duressed he brainstomed in repsonce, I duressed to take spell pierce, I chanted he forced and I duressed to take stifil. My last round opponent countered 4 or 5 chant effects in the match. Even against the elves guy I wanted silence against glimpse, but sided it out when I realized he probably didnt have it.

I could swear you wrote that you played silences to bait counter/"Time Walk" at some point which is imo questionable (round 5 for example) Gitaxian Probe however would help to seize your opponents hand for free, enable to plan accordingly and thins your Deck to virtually increase mana density (round 1 and 5)

[Tammit67]

Played a local today, gearing for Denver, Bryant's list:

1-2 loss to MUD
Game 1: Wished for shattering spree to kill revoker naming LED, a simple ad nauseum let me grapeshot for lethal. Because, grapeshot.
I board in grapeshot over warrens, after seeing rachet bomb. He has the hatebears to also make it a good idea.
Game 2: Lotus petal into revoker on LED, turn 2 revoker on petal, turn 3 lodestone, turn 4 cannonist. Needed one of those not to happen.
Game 3: I dont have the turn 1, and get chalice @ 1, then double lodestone'd

2-0 win over Hivemind
Game 1: Silence protected turn 3 tutor chain. He plays a Lim-dul's vault and a grim monolith. The monolith tips me off on hivemind, but the vault I just write off as w/e.
Game 2: I have a turn 2 protected, but he begins the game with 2x Leyline of sanctity (And I had not brought in chains, just more discard). I infernal for a second probe, chain 3 probe into empty the warrens with enough mana to pay for a pact or two should he go off. (probe mvp)

2-1 win over GBw Nic Fit
Game 1: Turn 3 tutor chain after seeing my turn 2 goblins will in fact not get there on the thanks to deed and pulse. (probe mvp)
Game 2: Therapy hits twice, and I slowly get beaten down without doing much.
Game 3: Turn 1 ad nauseum fails to let me tendrils (I boarded it in after seeing extirpate), but let's me pass the turn with 22 Charmander goblins in play.

2-0 win over BUG Delver
Game 1: I know he is on BUG something, I remember seeing flusterstorms in board earlier in the event. I'm assume some number of forces are missing.
Game 1: I win the die roll and draw into a turn 1 kill should my probe find a mana source and he doesn't have force. I hit city of brass and he has stifle, pierce, waste, 2 delvers, 2 fetches. Ad nauseum takes it. (probe just meh)
I board the second empty and more discard
Game 2: Opening hand has an empty the warrens. he taps out of blue on his turn 2 and ships it back to me. Rite, chrome mox imprinting silence, LED cast emtpy. A copy get's dazed, another gets forced and I get 4 tokens. I play the land and IT in my hand the next turn (after drawing a useless fetch) to ad naus to finish it, but he has the force. Somehow the 4 tokens go the distance.

I love probe. i love turn 1 brainstorm, play a couple LEDs, probe and crack for RRRBBB, make goblins.

[Bryant Cook]

Played a local today, gearing for Denver, Bryant's list:

Actually, you played an old list. I only run one Warrens at the moment, my current list is on the opening post.

[Megadeus]

Just tested a bunch of games against Miracle Blade. And I thought delver was a bad match up...

[Koby]

Just tested a bunch of games against Miracle Blade. And I thought delver was a bad match up...

Yea Goblins plan is bad when they have 1 mana answers.

[Megadeus]

Yea Goblins plan is bad when they have 1 mana answers.

That and its tough to fire off a quick Ad Nauseum hoping you just doing get countered. And Goblins cant race Batterskull Easily. I forget the exact math but I think you need like 14-16 goblins on T2 on the play to beat a batterskull hand. Do you guys just concede the fact that Game 1 is basically unwinnable?

[Tammit67]

Actually, you played an old list. I only run one Warrens at the moment, my current list is on the opening post.

I boarded in the one from the board, making 2 main. Do you advise against doing so? I decided to try it out and it happened to work

[Bryant Cook]

That and its tough to fire off a quick Ad Nauseum hoping you just doing get countered. And Goblins cant race Batterskull Easily. I forget the exact math but I think you need like 14-16 goblins on T2 on the play to beat a batterskull hand. Do you guys just concede the fact that Game 1 is basically unwinnable?

Crazy concept, but... Did you ever consider switching gameplans?



I boarded in the one from the board, making 2 main. Do you advise against doing so? I decided to try it out and it happened to work

Yeah, it makes Ad Nauseam as well as Burning Wish weaker.

[Endure2004]

That and its tough to fire off a quick Ad Nauseum hoping you just doing get countered. And Goblins cant race Batterskull Easily. I forget the exact math but I think you need like 14-16 goblins on T2 on the play to beat a batterskull hand. Do you guys just concede the fact that Game 1 is basically unwinnable?

This is why we play probe....

Honestly this matchup is not "unwinnable". No matchup is "unwinnable" with this deck.

[Megadeus]

Crazy concept, but... Did you ever consider switching gameplans?




Yeah, it makes Ad Nauseam as well as Burning Wish weaker.

To be honest my hands were never awesome. Just solid. I definitely need to test. I tried to do like what you said in the primer of just going off before the CB hits in G1. I probably should reevaluate how to attack the MU.

[Bryant Cook]

To be honest my hands were never awesome. Just solid. I definitely need to test. I tried to do like what you said in the primer of just going off before the CB hits in G1. I probably should reevaluate how to attack the MU.

You need to base your game plan on the hand as well as the match-up. Gitaxian Probe is invaluable in these kinds of matches.

[Wombo Combo]

Took Byrant's list to a local with the two karakas instead of two COV in the side:

Round 1 GW Maverick:

Game 1: He goes T1 cavern->noble. I probe and see a teeg, but no way to play it T2. I silence him on his T3 and then win with Ad Nauseam on my turn.
Game 2: He plays a forest and then I naturally storm kill him T1. This deck is really broken sometimes.

Round 2 Sneak/Show:

Game 1: He has the Show and tell but no creature. I silence him (resolves), then I kill him. He shows me misdirection :).
Game 2: He plays turn one Sensei's Top. I probe him and see a weird hand (2x brainstorm, 2x griselbrand, no show and tell). I silence T2 (resolves) and then win.

Round 3 RW Goblins with Thalia side:

Game 1: He plays scalding tarn T1 pass. I probe and find out that it's goblins. I win shortly after with Ad Nauseam.
Game 2: I therapy his thalia away. He plays a sharpshooter that cuts me off empty, but it doesn't matter cause I kill him after Ad Nauseam anyways.

Round 4 BUG Control (no FOW)

Game 1: I make 16 Goblins T1. He draws a card and concedes.
Game 2: I keep a loose hand and get punished with liliana.
Game 3: I duress away a thoughtseize. Then, I duress away an engineered plague. At this point I have 3xLand, 2xDark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox and Burning Wish. He has Daze and Spell Pierce. I decide to empty for 10. I think he put my on ANT, because he sided in nihil spellbombs (lol). Between the confidant, spellbombs and brainstorms he draws like 9 cards, but doesn't see any more plagues.

Round 5 ID
Round 6 ID

T8 Junk

Game 1: I mull to 6 and keep a questionable hand (2xGemstone, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, LED, Silence). I get punished for it when I don't find a business spell.
Game 2: I mull to 6 again and can't find the win before he deeds away all of my LED's.

I was pretty happy with the deck, but I need to work on my mulligans. Would you ever side in the Iggy for aggro matchups? I never did.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Game 2: I mull to 6 again and can't find the win before he deeds away all of my LED's.

I don't run out artifact mana against decks that play deed.

[Wombo Combo]

I don't run out artifact mana against decks that play deed.

I'll keep that in mind next time. In this game he had a double hymn hand with deed so I was not sure what to do because I couldn't returns before he would destory my hand.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'll keep that in mind next time. In this game he had a double hymn hand with deed so I was not sure what to do because I couldn't returns before he would destory my hand.

Brainstorm becomes the best card in your deck against BG/x. You have to play them carefully.

[Asthereal]

You can side in Iggy for aggro matchups. You need a lot of mana to make it work though (Infernal for Iggy, retrieve Infernal, play into Wish into Tendrils. It costs less mana than a tutor chain though, so it should be a quicker kill. I rarely use it though. I even dropped Iggy from my sideboard once.

[vercadium]

A few points for discussion:

---

I've been playing the deck for about 8 months now. I haven't played at a tournament yet, only locally on a casual basis, so I've just been keeping track of mana and storm in my head for the most part.

I've recently put some thought into it and decided that I should probably be taking note of things as it might be more difficult to keep track of in my head after 6 rounds in a tournament enviroment.

I figured paper would be the best way to do this as it means I can look back at the series of actions and show this to a judge if required.

If using this method, I would be designing a custom sheet with the following rows (in addition to life totals/notes):

W/U/B/R/G/Colourless/Storm.

The most intuitive way of counting on paper seems to be using numbers for mana and Tally Marks for storm count.

Another alternative is dice; I've seen Liam Kane and recently Adam Prosak use them.

Paper seems a little more discreet. I'd rather not help my opponent by handing them information on a platter right in their face.

How do you track storm and mana? Do you feel it is only necessary to actually start taking record every few spells in a chain as opposed to after every spell? The latter seems more prudent.

I'm concerned that going back-and-forth writing while I'm in the middle of going off will impact my focus. I have ADD so it could just be me that might have an issue here. Using dice probably wouldn't have a the same problem. Either would certainly take some getting used to.

I'd love to hear all your thoughts on this.

---

I played a game with my new sideboard (Same as opening post -1 Hull Breach +1 Revoke Existence) against Maverick.

With the new additions there is an extra card that could be brought in after bringing out the 4 Silence and 3 Duress.

So far I have been boarding +2 Cabal Therapy +3 Abrupt Decay +2 Chain of Vapor, leaving 1 Cabal Therapy in the sideboard as a wish target.

Is this correct? There's also the possibility of leaving out an Abrupt Decay. We could side-board another card from the main-deck to make room (1 Infernal Tutor/Ponder/Probe etc), but I feel this would be overdoing it and harm our plan.

On a related note, this is the same reason I would not replace the Revoke Existence/Hull Breach/Shattering Spree slot with more 'answers' similar to the ones we already have (such as an additional COV). I simply don't think there's room to bring them in.

I think this slot should either:

A) Remain a wish-able answer Revoke Existence/Hull Breach/Shattering Spreee/Pyroclasm/Infest/Deathmark etc.

B) Be used for more matchup specific answers such as Xantid Swarm.

---

As always, thank you for reading.

Edit: I just saw that the sideboard plans on the opening post had been updated since I last checked a few days ago. This has helped answer my question regarding Maverick, though if you have anything to add, please do so.

[Damoxx]

Notepad for Storm Players (if you feel like advertising what deck you are playing)
http://incontentionmagic.com/?p=361

[Endure2004]

Personally I keep track of mana in my head and storm verbally except in the following situations:

Use of a storm engine: most opponents want to count storm with a d20, keeping mana in head
Use of a storm engine with complicated combinations of mana (U/B/R): I note my mana on paper
High Grapeshot counts: I keep mana on paper and count storm out loud and on a couple d20s

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I write it down when it's obvious I'm playing storm aka when on the combo turn.

But I play with a Tendrils playmat so there's that.

[leegoo]

I always keep up with mana by writing in / scratching out UUU/RRR/BBB/Whatever and tallying storm. Keeps a record of what's going on without being a total PITA to keep up with (I suck with finding #'s on dice)

[Koby]

Blank sheets of paper are my preferred method. Once you start Storming off, make a section for Storm (tallies) and Mana (as you use/generate it). Nothing too fancy. Others have adopted writing down the spells they play too, in order to remove ambiguity in case of a Judge call. Example: Play Lotus Petal (LP), Rite of Flames (RoF), Lion's Eye Diamond (LED), tap Gemstone Mine for Dark Ritual (DR), cast Ad Nauseam (AdN).

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I write out symbols:

BBB RRR UUU

[Pelikanudo]

Notepad for Storm Players (if you feel like advertising what deck you are playing)
http://incontentionmagic.com/?p=361

I think that paper is for the Opponent Of A Storm Player, I think we don't need any stuff like thit, we have brain for this...
a blank paper is all we need, thanks anyway.

@Varcadium.
The choice is simple:
If you do not have answers for 2nd and 3rd games to Leyline of Santity then play Revoke Existence (my suggestion) or Hull Breach (B.Cook suggestion) , otherwise play Spree.
Conclusions: Chain is now played in Side (B.C. List for reference), therefore you should play S.Spree.

[Megadeus]

I think the pad is a decent tool for people newer to the deck. I usually mark down the storm count for myself. And for some people it is easier to visualize the mana it costs to use the spell or adding from darkritual or Rite of Flame. And its less that you need to remember when you are doing other math in your head.

[Bryant Cook]

I announce pretty much everything. Mana, Storm, and before I cast a storm engine if I've made a land drop or not. Complex game states are an exception, I will use pen and paper then.

I generally don't use a pad and pen unless it's notes on the match or the opponents hand. I like to write down what happens as the games progress, which is why my reports are usually pretty detailed.

Edit: I got bored today at work and filtered through the pimp deck thread for my posts and found yearly updates of my deck in progress as well as my playmat. I added them to the opening post.

[thefringthing]

I use the pad the track life (which you must do at Competitive REL) and write down my opponents hand. I track storm mentally unless I'm bluffing, in which case I'll do something like the "pen trick". I try to be as verbose and anal about triggers and other gamestate bookkeeping as possible to avoid conflicts.

[loveisgreen]

I have gotten into the habit of keeping track of storm on a D20, and as soon as they know you are on storm you can sometimes bait a counterspell simply by putting the die at 1 when you cast a ponder or brainstorm. I have noticed a recurring trend in that nobody has any clue how to fight this deck properly, I'm not even sure I do anymore. I will have a fairly detailed report after this weekend, and hope that anyone else storming into GP denver comes out with some insights that we can all benefit from. Speaking of which, if any of you are going to be at the event, I would love to meet up and jam some matches after the judge conference.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I have gotten into the habit of keeping track of storm on a D20, and as soon as they know you are on storm you can sometimes bait a counterspell simply by putting the die at 1 when you cast a ponder or brainstorm. I have noticed a recurring trend in that nobody has any clue how to fight this deck properly, I'm not even sure I do anymore. I will have a fairly detailed report after this weekend, and hope that anyone else storming into GP denver comes out with some insights that we can all benefit from. Speaking of which, if any of you are going to be at the event, I would love to meet up and jam some matches after the judge conference.

I'll be there.

[Ellomdian]

While there seem to be a number of different opinions on how best to keep track of things during a turn (mana, storm, w/e) I can tell you that not tracking the numbers with something to visually represent the game state (and thereby get a consensus about the state with your opponent) will put you in far more unfortunate situations that the slight advantage that tracking those things will give your opponent - especially when floating mana between multiple spell casts.

I cannot begin to tell you how frustrating it is, as a judge, to get called over to a game in progress about a discrepancy about mana/storm/whatever and to have to reconstruct the turn from cards in the GY's. If you say "Ritual, add BBB" and then write BBB down on the paper, the opponent has to raise their concern then and there, not 3 minutes later when you've resolved a brainstorm and a wish and are thinking whether you need another card on the Ad Nauseum to win.

[phazonmutant]

I cannot begin to tell you how frustrating it is, as a judge, to get called over to a game in progress about a discrepancy about mana/storm/whatever and to have to reconstruct the turn from cards in the GY's. If you say "Ritual, add BBB" and then write BBB down on the paper, the opponent has to raise their concern then and there, not 3 minutes later when you've resolved a brainstorm and a wish and are thinking whether you need another card on the Ad Nauseum to win.

Seconded on this. Also, from the Magic Comprehensive Rules:

If a player passes priority (see rule 116) while there is mana in his or her mana pool, that player announces what mana is there. If any mana remains in a player's mana pool after he or she spends mana to pay a cost, that player announces what mana is still there.

You're probably not going to get called on it, but it's good practice to follow the rules as much as possible, and it benefits both you and your opponent to have a clear game state.

[metalhead]

Ive gotten in the habbit of writing down every spell I play for storm. Shorthand of course. But Ive had enough people try to cheat me that I want to have the exact list of spells in writing. Not doing this almost cost me a game because my opponent neatly stacked his graveyard while I wasnt paying attention. And hid a daze that was part of my storm count. At the time I was tired and confused. Because I had counted my storm at 8. Confirmed it with my opponent. Then burning wished for Tendrils and he said he was still alive. There are too many shady people especially people that are getting beat by combo. Best to protect yourself.

[Oiolosse]

Ive gotten in the habbit of writing down every spell I play for storm. Shorthand of course. But Ive had enough people try to cheat me that I want to have the exact list of spells in writing. Not doing this almost cost me a game because my opponent neatly stacked his graveyard while I wasnt paying attention. And hid a daze that was part of my storm count. At the time I was tired and confused. Because I had counted my storm at 8. Confirmed it with my opponent. Then burning wished for Tendrils and he said he was still alive. There are too many shady people especially people that are getting beat by combo. Best to protect yourself.

Hitting will get you in trouble but spitting generally won't. Beware, it's considered very rude by most.

[seamonkeyman]

I played in a local last night and played the mirror 3 times!!! Apparently this deck is really getting popular! Out of 15 players 4 (including myself) were on TES and 1 on Doomsday.

Most of the games went very long and were a battle of chants and discard and unfortunaty I only went 1-2 so there is most likely something that I can be improve on. It just seemed like the opponents were drawing enough chants to stop me or just winning a turn faster than me which could have just been luck. I'll admit that I really haven't ever practiced the mirror though.

I was boarding as follows:
+3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Empty the Warrens

Not sure if this is correct. I didn't see a section in the opening post for other Storm combo decks.

[metalhead]

I played in a local last night and played the mirror 3 times!!! Apparently this deck is really getting popular! Out of 15 players 4 (including myself) were on TES and 1 on Doomsday.

Most of the games went very long and were a battle of chants and discard and unfortunaty I only went 1-2 so there is most likely something that I can be improve on. It just seemed like the opponents were drawing enough chants to stop me or just winning a turn faster than me which could have just been luck. I'll admit that I really haven't ever practiced the mirror though.

I was boarding as follows:
+3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Empty the Warrens

Not sure if this is correct. I didn't see a section in the opening post for other Storm combo decks.


I would not board out ETW. A small ETW for 4-8 goblins backed by chant/discard is a very legit way to win storm mirrors. It can be as simple as turn 2. Play petal, ritual, if opponent chants in responce u traded a rit for a chant. If not cast ETW for 6 and still have petal open for your own chant. A few years ago the prefered method of winning storm mirrors with fetchland tendrils was to cast street wraith and ETW is far more efficient.

[Tammit67]

I'll be there.

Lehigh Hoodie, Brown and white knit hat. Hope to see you

[Bryant Cook]

I played in a local last night and played the mirror 3 times!!! Apparently this deck is really getting popular! Out of 15 players 4 (including myself) were on TES and 1 on Doomsday.

Most of the games went very long and were a battle of chants and discard and unfortunaty I only went 1-2 so there is most likely something that I can be improve on. It just seemed like the opponents were drawing enough chants to stop me or just winning a turn faster than me which could have just been luck. I'll admit that I really haven't ever practiced the mirror though.

I was boarding as follows:
+3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Empty the Warrens

Not sure if this is correct. I didn't see a section in the opening post for other Storm combo decks.

I have the same problem for my local metagame. I'm just going to start playing decks that punish combo.

I've just been siding out the Warrens for a single Cabal Therapy.

[KevinTrudeau]

1 on Doomsday.

'Twas me. I don't think we played, but it sure was swell seeing you 'round these parts again.

Good luck to all you storm players in Colorado.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

'Twas me. I don't think we played, but it sure was swell seeing you 'round these parts again.

Good luck to all you storm players in Colorado.

Made day two at 6-2. Lost round one to MUD with Blood Moon then won six in a row. Punted round eight with the win on the board. Very tired.

Twelve-hour drive and a semi crash really slowed us down. Wasn't feeling so hot late in the day. Food with Koby now, and gonna be back at it in the morning.

[Tammit67]

Made day two at 6-2. Lost round one to MUD with Blood Moon then won six in a row. Punted round eight with the win on the board. Very tired.

Twelve-hour drive and a semi crash really slowed us down. Wasn't feeling so hot late in the day. Food with Koby now, and gonna be back at it in the morning.

Good luck, the deck is incredibly well positioned in this diverse meta.

I lost my win and in off a mull to 4. I am a scrub.

[jin]

I would think that the ponder and Infernal Tutor #4 would be more expendable than the ETW. That's interesting...

How valuable is ETW in the mirror.. hmm.. I guess the whole thing is just a mind game..

[thefringthing]

I won the mirror with Bryant watching once. My play wasn't great and I think my opponent made an error by not leaving Silence mana up on turn one, but it was a cool memory anyway.

The relative value of Empty the Warrens could depend a lot on what kind of sideboard they have. Ari's list has a Pyroclasm, which means you could end up just eating it if they went with something closer to his list than to Bryant's.

[emidln]

If you can ETW while still providing heavy disruption it's a good plan. Otherwise, it's probably not ideal (although doing something is possibly better than absolutely nothing). ETW is best when you draw it, so you can play it for 4-10 tokens while you keep up Chant or duress/therapy them a few times.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Finished 9-5 at GP Denver this weekend for 84th place. Feel free to ask any questions.

1-2 MUD
2-0 Infect
2-0 Bomberman
2-1 Reanimator
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
2-0 Shardless BUG
2-0 UR Landstill
1-2 4c Stoneblade
2-1 Team America
2-0 4c Stoneblade
1-2 4c Stoneblade
1-2 Esper Stoneblade
2-0 ANT
1-2 RUG Delver

[Lemnear]

Finished 9-5 at GP Denver this weekend for 84th place. Feel free to ask any questions.

1-2 MUD
2-0 Infect
2-0 Bomberman
2-1 Reanimator
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
2-0 Shardless BUG
2-0 UR Landstill
1-2 4c Stoneblade
2-1 Team America
2-0 4c Stoneblade
1-2 4c Stoneblade
1-2 Esper Stoneblade
2-0 ANT
1-2 RUG Delver

Anything special about the 3 losses to stoneblades? What was different in the stoneblade matchup you 2-0ed? I guess in those matchups you are pretty Cut off from natural EtW due to skull?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Anything special about the 3 losses to stoneblades? What was different in the stoneblade matchup you 2-0ed? I guess in those matchups you are pretty Cut off from natural EtW due to skull?

4c Stoneblade defined as:
BUG Maverick
Bant Stoneblade with Black

Some lists played Knight of the Reliquary while others played 3+ copies of Flusterstorm and Snapcaster Mage. Each list played Batterskull. Others played zero Force of Will while the rest had the full set.

Decks generally opened with G/x dual into Deathrite Shaman. Issues were a combination of discard mixed with soft countermagic (Flusterstorm with Snapcaster) backed with a clock (Knight of the Reliquary/Batterskull). Most lists also played Wasteland.

[Tammit67]

After scrubbing hard day 1, I played the Legacy Redux side event. Round 3, I'm up against Si Ning Li (who posts here under some name) and is game 2 with me on the play. I know it is the 70-75 card mirror.

My starting seven is: Underground Sea, Petal, Petal, Silence, Silence, LED, Duress. Do you keep that hand on the play? On the draw? Always?

I hate hands that don't have a cantrip/action in the starting 7, and will usually go to 6 trying to find them. Only then do I stop being as picky. I asked my opponent after the match, and he was quick to want to have a hand like that in the mirror.

[leegoo]

After scrubbing hard day 1, I played the Legacy Redux side event. Round 3, I'm up against Si Ning Li (who posts here under some name) and is game 2 with me on the play. I know it is the 70-75 card mirror.

My starting seven is: Underground Sea, Petal, Petal, Silence, Silence, LED, Duress. Do you keep that hand on the play? On the draw? Always?

I hate hands that don't have a cantrip/action in the starting 7, and will usually go to 6 trying to find them. Only then do I stop being as picky. I asked my opponent after the match, and he was quick to want to have a hand like that in the mirror.

You've got a lot of time with that hand if you know it's the mirror.
Considering you know it's the mirror I think it's a definite keep. I guess if he's on the play and t1 empty's you are punished (considering your 1st-2nd draw aren't action) but otherwise you've got a pretty strong grip.

[lordofthepit]

After scrubbing hard day 1, I played the Legacy Redux side event. Round 3, I'm up against Si Ning Li (who posts here under some name) and is game 2 with me on the play. I know it is the 70-75 card mirror.

My starting seven is: Underground Sea, Petal, Petal, Silence, Silence, LED, Duress. Do you keep that hand on the play? On the draw? Always?

I hate hands that don't have a cantrip/action in the starting 7, and will usually go to 6 trying to find them. Only then do I stop being as picky. I asked my opponent after the match, and he was quick to want to have a hand like that in the mirror.

I keep that since I value Silence very highly in the mirror unless I know the opponent runs Bob in the side and brings them in. You'll have plenty of draw steps, plus if he tries to go off it's a Mind Twist.

Getting a normal good hand in the mirror is dangerous since it's risky to go off without protecting, and you may simply get your action cards Duressed away.

[loveisgreen]

Finished 5-3 at the GP, lost my win and in to a guy who must have kept 3x Counterbalance 2x Force of Will and 2 lands as his opener game 1, and game 3 He played 3 cb (revoked and decayed 2 of them), revealed terminus to my chrome mox with the 3rd, so i silence, he forces, i go off, he forces........ Which is also what happened round two, minus the counterbalance, plus more forces.

Am I doing it wrong? When I silence and they force should I just say go? I feel like that is wrong, especially when they haven't pondered or anything and the odds of them having another force is very low.

In any case, I learned that PiF is the sickest, Revoke costing 1W actually mattered as I only had Underground Sea and Gemstone Mine in play the one time I had to cast it, and that I lost a game because I had Diminishing Returns instead of Reforge the Soul, but I don't think that happens more than 1/1000 games so I don't think I'll be switching yet...... and I also learned that I love this deck and what it does to people when you destroy them. I have never seen angrier nerds in my life :D

[Bahamuth]

Am I doing it wrong? When I silence and they force should I just say go? I feel like that is wrong, especially when they haven't pondered or anything and the odds of them having another force is very low.



If you have no way to improve your hand, you should always try to win. If you can improve your hand, but there's a large probability that he will drop a CB/another permanent you lose to, you should still try to win.

[Lemnear]

Am I doing it wrong? When I silence and they force should I just say go? I feel like that is wrong, especially when they haven't pondered or anything and the odds of them having another force is very low.


Post sb they may bring in flusterstorms in that matchup and he had 2+ cards remaining in his hand. The odds for multiple forces aren't the point. Every brainstorm into flusterstorm or spell pierce may screw you over. It depends a lot on your read.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Playing Empty in the main won me 8 games during the weekend.

So good!

[metalhead]

Playing Empty in the main won me 8 games during the weekend.

So good!

I played TES at a local event a couple weeks ago for a mox. The event went pretty poorly but ETW was definatly my best card all day. I always wanted it and every game I won was with goblin tokens. I did lose a game against pox that would have been an easy win had I remembered I was playing ETW main. But I had forgot because I heard about the event last minute so I just copied Cooks list from the opening page.

P.s. I absolutely hated only having 12 lands.

[jin]

P.s. I absolutely hated only having 12 lands.

Why is this? The deck ran fine when it had 11 lands. I find 12 lands to be fine as well. Some how, I'm still getting flooded... The cantrips in this deck will help you find what you need.

[phazonmutant]

Went 5-3 at GP Denver after 3 byes. I posted a report under the Tournament Reports thread. Not a fantastic performance, but I feel that if I had played the deck for a few more tournaments beforehand, I would know better what hands to mulligan. As far as I can tell, mulligan decisions are the only major mistakes I made, which makes some sense considering how I test. The deck seemed well positioned, but maybe for me personally not a good choice in long tournaments.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Went 5-3 at GP Denver after 3 byes. I posted a report under the Tournament Reports thread. Not a fantastic performance, but I feel that if I had played the deck for a few more tournaments beforehand, I would know better what hands to mulligan. As far as I can tell, mulligan decisions are the only major mistakes I made, which makes some sense considering how I test. The deck seemed well positioned, but maybe for me personally not a good choice in long tournaments.

I rarely mulligan. Keeping hands with double Burning Wish were invaluable.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Double post, boo.

Would anyone find a write-up for my day two finish at GP Denver helpful? Played against a lot of blue decks. Jedi-mind-fucked some people.

Could be a story about Koby buying me a steak and martini and something about Power Nine cube drafting with sdematt and the Canadian/SoCal crews.

Having dinner with Vidi the night before he won the GP was pretty cool.

[Koby]

Double post, boo.

Would anyone find a write-up for my day two finish at GP Denver helpful? Played against a lot of blue decks. Jedi-mind-fucked some people.

Could be a story about Koby buying me a steak and martini and something about Power Nine cube drafting with sdematt and the Canadian/SoCal crews.

Having dinner with Vidi the night before he won the GP was pretty cool.

I can write about your Match 8 Game 3 as witnessed by an outsider.
Well, more describe it with pictures:
http://thestrategyguysite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/football-punt1.png

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I can write about your Match 8 Game 3 as witnessed by an outsider.
Well, more describe it with pictures:

<-- Fixed.

[Tammit67]

Double post, boo.

Would anyone find a write-up for my day two finish at GP Denver helpful? Played against a lot of blue decks. Jedi-mind-fucked some people.

Could be a story about Koby buying me a steak and martini and something about Power Nine cube drafting with sdematt and the Canadian/SoCal crews.

Having dinner with Vidi the night before he won the GP was pretty cool.

I'd read it

[r3dd09]

The technique on that punt is all wrong >.>

I'd read it as well.
My performance was bad. Once I got tired in the 4th round, I made a mistake I've never made before. Possible report from me.

It was nice to meet some storm players and talk tech.

[Megadeus]

I played the deck in an actual tournament tonight for the first time. Ive been following and playtesting for a couple weeks now until I played tonight. I played Bryant's list -1 Underground Sea +1 Badlands because the guy I borrowed from only had 1 Sea.

Round 1 4 color ThopterBalanceWelder

A sourcer was playing this. G1 I go to go off and realize I only had 1 Red mana for the burning wish but none for my empty the warrens *facepalm*. I messed up real bad and died
G2 I take a look at the hand with Probe. Duress a force away. Go off with Empty the Warrens for 14 Gobs on T1.
G3 I saw Counterbalance G2 and didnt board in Abrupt Decay like an idiot. I end up just losing because I can never get rid of his permission.

Round 2 UR Tron (modern)

I knew what he was on because I saw him playing it in round 1.
G1 I keep double Dark Ritual with an Ad Naseum on the play. Go off. Win.
G2 He does some stuff on T1. I sculp woth a brainstorm. T2 I go with Burning Wish with an LED and a IT in hand, get Ill-Gotten Gains, use it to get back ritual, IT, LED, and go for exactsies with Tendrils.

Round 3 Naya Astral Slide

All these real decks!
G1 I goo off with a tendrils. Easy one.
G2 I t1 Therapy him naming Thalia because he is on white. I see like KOTR, Mox Diamond, and Wrath of God. Alright. T2 He casually rips a 3-Ball. Then next turn Canonist. Then another Canonist. I die with 1 land on the field.
G3 I just go off on T1 for 16 goblins so I dont have to worry about any Mox Diamond into T1 Canonist Hand. It gets there.

Round 4 Miracle Blade

I have never beaten this MU in testing and Im nervous.

G1 I have empty so I keep. He plays 2 fetches and pass. I probe on T3 and see a brainstorm and thats all at instant speed. I go for empty. Make a bunch of dudes. He takes 14 and next turn brainstorms and miracles terminus. He is at 3 and plays Counterbalance and Top. I shit my pants. I play Chrome Mox. he flips Arid Mesa. I play another chrome Mox. get it countered. I have an LED on board from my empty turn. I play Burning Wish. He fetches. Doesnt find a 2 drop. I grapeshot for 4 to kill him.
G2 I keep a double Abrupt Decay hand. I probe and see nothing to stop me, but I cant go off that turn. Next turn on draw step he Cliques me, in response I Decay clique, and instead of my burning wish (my only tutor) he takes the other decay. Im confused. He then plays the Blue Rule of Law (Iforget the name). I then burning wish next turn for Hull Breach. Next turn I hull breach the rule of law, then probe and see he has nothing but draw a burning wish! I start storming and when I play burning wish he cracks top, dammit he had a force on top god im stupid, Then reveals a land. I breathe again

3-1 after 4 rounds with my first tournament with the deck!!

Top 8 I played Burn.

G1 I Ad Naseum on T2 after he gets a confused look wondering why I allowed his Vexing Devil Resolve. Kill him with Tendrils.
G2 He gets me down a bit thanks to my own City of Brass. I think its safe to go off, but I probe and see a mindbreak trap. Luckily, like a boss I rip Durress and Ad Naseum and get some good flips to get the exactsies kill.

We split top 4 after that.

Overall I really like the deck. The badlands never hurt me at all thank god. Im not sure I would change anything at the moment. I also played reforge the soul over the Diminishing Returns. Just a preference. The one time I wished for it, I ended up just drawing Ad Nauseum anyway and it didnt matter. I think I got every single wish target tonight though which is pretty cool!


Edit: I apologize about run on sentences and horrid grammar. My roommate was talking to me as I wrote and I just was winging it.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi,
to those who may interest,

the other day I played a local small tournament and I faced as other days a well known boy playing BUG (Death Rites, dazes FoWs, tempo), he plays some variants Tempo, Control, and the boy plays well the deck he top eighted some tournaments with the deck.
I won the match up, and I 'd like to focus in some key things.

- The 2 games I won was bacause of Diminishng Returns.
- The only Card I sided was -1 C.Mox = +1 Karakas
- The list is for reference Old List with 5 Orims Chant (3 Silence - 2 Orims) 13 Lands , 1 Tendrils, 1 Preordain (Slot I Hate).
- He extirpated 3 silence having 1 Orims in hand.

First of All, D.R. is great, I love that card, but it is not only love,
with presence of Death Rite shamen, PiF is weaker, also the tempo deck's clock is fast so the chance of winning comes through Empty (to those who play), Quick A.N. or D.R., for me D.R. is beeing crucial in Tempo Disruption Decks based on D.R.S. that are making top8 in the meta lately.

Also for 2nd and 3rd games, winning in first turns is beeing exmely difficult because of Discard - Flustertorm effects, apart from the base - therefore my inevitable defense strategy (absurd -1 C.M = +1 Karakas). I love that match up almost as much as Canadian.

[jandax]

Went to a local 4 round tournament and doubled my money with Bryant's list. Used the same sideboard guides and generally stuck to the OP.

Round one I played against BG Smallpox. Tops into Bobs into Liliana of the Veil, with some Wasteland, Hymn to Tourach and Smallpox thrown in. Game one I mulliganed, and went into topdeck mode with two LED's and two duals in play and ripped a Burning Wish. From there Diminishing Returns got lethal Storm. I had just switched back from playing Reforge the Souls, and the one mana difference mattered. Game two I get beat down with three Bobs. No shit. Game three I put 14 goblins into play turn one.

I played a friend on RiP/Helm and it was brutal. Maybe it's my skill but the match, as he had his deck set up, was pot shot winnable. Game one he cantrip'd into his only EE to deal with my 16 goblin tokens, and locked me down thereafter. Game two it was another mulligan and he had counters for days. He did "all these" me, chivalry lives on.

Round three I played against Goblins splashing Swords to Plowshares. Game one I had more goblins than him. Game two I burn an opening ritual, lotus petal and wish to pyroclasm his team. He recovers and I don't. Game three I have 12 goblins on turn one.

UWr Landstill was my next opponent, trading games until we had a sweet combo turn in game three. I have a hand full of action and mana, a silence, five lands out and I've been waiting to draw the duress so I can proceed to killing him. There's no pressure coming from this deck, so I lead out the duress. He Clique's in response, my only response could be the Silence. At this point he's tapped out, meaning he could have a Force of Will or dead. He flusterstorms tapping out, no Force in hand, and I don't pay for the Silence. Storm 5. Infernal tutor is sent to the bottom and is replaced by Infernal Tutor from the top. Hilarity ensues, and we pack 'em in.

About the OP sideboard, I felt that given a room of 30 some people, there was an even meta where the top tables were populated by good decks. To Bryant, would you fault someone for wanting to replace the Therapies with Xantid Swarm? They're quite good in matches that I percieve as bad, no doubt they side out Swords to Plowshares so it's likely to stick around. I think the maindeck is well equipped to handle a stable metagame. Or maybe more Abrupt Decay, I had three. Aside from card choices, are there any strategies, tips, windows of opportunity that one could take advantage of?

[Megadeus]

Goblins is such a weird MU. In my testing My Turn 1 awesome stuff hands were good, but most of my cantrip heavy ones durdled too much. Not sure if it was my testing partners deck, but I generally was wanting to win with Tendrils because Empty kept getting raced. Never played against a Pox deck yet. Countertop is always going to be a tough MU I think. It's just so much to fight against. This sort of MU is where I think an opening turn Empty is sick if you happen to have it. I may try out D Returns this week over Reforge. I have been testing with Reforge and I dont think the mana has made too much of a difference.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

To Bryant, would you fault someone for wanting to replace the Therapies with Xantid Swarm?

Probably safe to say TES is the worst shell for therapy. I'm not always happy with it.

[jandax]

@megadeus: I had reforge, and then switched back to DR and at least two games that tournament I went off because of the one mana difference. Plus, for what it's worth, it doesn't facilitate getting drained out by Deathrite Shamans when you're at low life and are trying to do your thing. That was also a situation that popped up. Reforge is still good. But for what it's worth, sticking to the info and card lists on the OP will get you results.

@RaNDoMxGeSTuReS: I literally never wanted to bring them in. The therapies that is. Maybe in some sort of Meta it's necessary but I'm going to happily swap them out. Hopefully others have had similar experiences. I was just hoping that someone would chime in and talk me out of making a bad decision. That's always nice.

[o13g]

Speaking of Therapies and the discard package in general here's what I've been happy with lately (>50 matches played versus various decks in paid matches in MODO and real-life Tournaments)

Maindeck:
2x Duress
1x Thoughtseize
(- 1x Duress compared to the OP)

SB:
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
(- 3x Therapy compared to the OP)

Reasoning:
1) Being able to play four discard spells capable of hitting hatebears in G2, G3
2) I can wish for Thoughtseize, which is the ultimate pointed discard spell
3) Playing 6 discard spells G2/G3 that will always hit against combo was huge for me

Yes I hate the 2 life I have to pay for Thoughtseize G1 but being armed against hatebears and combo G2/G3 outweighs this for me. Overall I have won more games Thoughtseizing the critical piece of hate rather than I've lost due to paying the 2 life.

To those of you who are good at Therapying your combo and hate-bear opponents: I appreciate your success. Save your praises for Therapies and links to Keller's article. I've read it. I am fine with you cosidering me a bad player as long as I don't have to name Thalia and whiff seeing those GSZ's or Teegs in their hand instead.

[Bryant Cook]

So... this is what happens when I'm gone for a week? Good luck winning games against interactive non-blue decks without them.

[Megadeus]

So... this is what happens when I'm gone for a week? Good luck winning games against interactive non-blue decks without them.

Without cabal therapy? Thoughtseize I just dont like because it adds to theor clock a bit and therapy isnt too tough blind since against a lot of decks you arent trying to get value, you just need to get gaddock teeg or thalia out of their hand

[Final Fortune]

Without cabal therapy? Thoughtseize I just dont like because it adds to theor clock a bit and therapy isnt too tough blind since against a lot of decks you arent trying to get value, you just need to get gaddock teeg or thalia out of their hand

Post BUG discard is a lot better than Chant effects and Xantid Swarm because you need to pre-emptively use your discard in order to stop their discard, I'd honestly run 4 Duress, 3 Silence as opposed to 4 Silence, 3 Duress right now if its a question of whether or not I'm going to get Hymned (and Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void are still a thing fwiw.)

[Megadeus]

That seems fair. I just am not sure thoughtseize is the way to go. Inquisition just seems better seeing as you dont take the lifeloss and if they are banking on a 4 or more mana card then they probably will die before that. Im just not a fan of weakening Ad Nauseum.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

So... this is what happens when I'm gone for a week? Good luck winning games against interactive non-blue decks without them.

I've been playing Modern Eggs for a week.

Queso?

[Final Fortune]

That seems fair. I just am not sure thoughtseize is the way to go. Inquisition just seems better seeing as you dont take the lifeloss and if they are banking on a 4 or more mana card then they probably will die before that. Im just not a fan of weakening Ad Nauseum.

I don't care if they are SBing it right now, Force of Will makes all the difference in the world between Seize and Inquisition.

[Megadeus]

I don't care if they are SBing it right now, Force of Will makes all the difference in the world between Seize and Inquisition.

My comments were towards non blue decks. I apologize that wasn't clear

[Bryant Cook]

My comments were towards non blue decks. I apologize that wasn't clear

However, you need a card thats versatile that interacts with blue decks as well. Which is why I'm playing Therapy, it's the best of the three options.

[Megadeus]

However, you need a card thats versatile that interacts with blue decks as well. Which is why I'm playing Therapy, it's the best of the three options.

Right. Especially in a deck with 4 Probes. Also for force of will decks you have duress as well

also someone said something about the fourth duress over the 4th silence. Ive debated the idea as well

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Right. Especially in a deck with 4 Probes. Also for force of will decks you have duress as well

also someone said something about the fourth duress over the 4th silence. Ive debated the idea as well

Eh, you want the fourth Silence. Really wanted the fifth in Denver.

[Koby]

Eh, you want the fourth Silence. Really wanted the fifth in Denver.

Weston Brown got 9th in the Open yesterday with 5 Chant TES. Too bad he did draw-into-ninth math, otherwise he would have gotten there.

[Megadeus]

Maybe ill go find a couple of Orims chants sometime then for a 3-2 split

What would you cut for the fifth chant? Like a ponder? Or a duress?

[Koby]

Maybe ill go find a couple of Orims chants sometime then for a 3-2 split

What would you cut for the fifth chant? Like a ponder? Or a duress?

His list ran 3 Silence 2 Chant 3 Duress and 13 lands, but only 3 BWish & 3 Gitaxian Probe.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52288

[Megadeus]

Not a fan of only 3 BW and 3 Probe. Probe might be my favorite card to see in my opener

[jandax]

Not a fan of only 3 BW and 3 Probe. Probe might be my favorite card to see in my opener

You'd probably be better off cutting a Mox.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi,
to those who may interest,

the other day I played a local small tournament and I faced as other days a well known boy playing BUG (Death Rites, dazes FoWs, tempo), he plays some variants Tempo, Control, and the boy plays well the deck he top eighted some tournaments with the deck.
I won the match up, and I 'd like to focus in some key things.

- The 2 games I won was bacause of Diminishng Returns.
- The only Card I sided was -1 C.Mox = +1 Karakas
- The list is for reference Old List with 5 Orims Chant (3 Silence - 2 Orims) 13 Lands , 1 Tendrils, 1 Preordain (Slot I Hate).
- He extirpated 3 silence having 1 Orims in hand.

First of All, D.R. is great, I love that card, but it is not only love,
with presence of Death Rite shamen, PiF is weaker, also the tempo deck's clock is fast so the chance of winning comes through Empty (to those who play), Quick A.N. or D.R., for me D.R. is beeing crucial in Tempo Disruption Decks based on D.R.S. that are making top8 in the meta lately.

Also for 2nd and 3rd games, winning in first turns is beeing exmely difficult because of Discard - Flustertorm effects, apart from the base - therefore my inevitable defense strategy (absurd -1 C.M = +1 Karakas). I love that match up almost as much as Canadian.

Notes and talking about above:
- I can guarranty that the concurrency of the likelihood of these scenarios for me to win that match up are reduced drastically If I play less than 4 B.W.
- I personally still play 5 Chant Effects and 4th duress side. Absolutly better 3 Silence 2 Orims instead of 2 Silence 3 Orims, vs S&T I side out exactly these Orims with Xantid.
- I assume loosing first games vs C.B., we now have A.D.
- I personally still play 4 C.Mox, 3 is ok, but please do not leave TES with less than 3 C.M.


Not a fan of only 3 BW and 3 Probe. Probe might be my favorite card to see in my opener
This is because you do not know the essence of the deck.
My favourite card to draw is by far B.W. however I recognize the strongests is I.T.

[Dark Ritual]

Notes and talking about above:
- I can guarranty that the concurrency of the likelihood of these scenarios for me to win that match up are reduced drastically If I play less than 4 B.W.
- I personally still play 5 Chant Effects and 4th duress side. Absolutly better 3 Silence 2 Orims instead of 2 Silence 3 Orims, vs S&T I side out exactly these Orims with Xantid.
- I assume loosing first games vs C.B., we now have A.D.
- I personally still play 4 C.Mox, 3 is ok, but please do not leave TES with less than 3 C.M.


This is because you do not know the essence of the deck.
My favourite card to draw is by far B.W. however I recognize the strongests is I.T.

Look, I don't mean to be a douche but here it goes. 'Essence of the deck'? What in the nine hells are you talking about? I actually despise drawing burning wish. Infernal tutor is almost always better and less awkward in terms of ritual mana. 4 Chrome mox is terrible, 4 suggests that you want to see one drawn before you cast ad nauseam or a bomb. I'd rather draw any other card in the deck over chrome mox except a land when I can't get hellbent with IT. 2 cards for one potentially colorless mana and sometimes one of the right color of mana is a terrible tradeoff in almost every circumstance prior to ad nauseam resolving when you have so many cards afterwards it generally doesn't matter. 7 initial mana sources post ad nauseam is fine enough in a deck with a curve as low as ours. Even if we hypothetically use 2 of those sources prior to ad nauseam 5 is still a very high number.

I'd board out orim's chant against show and tell only if I knew they were on the white leyline. Orim's chant is actually quite invaluable against sneak attack when they activate it, put in emrakul, then can't attack because I chanted them with kicker effectively time walking them, not taking 15, and not losing my entire board.

Also, you assume you'll lose game 1 against miracles? Nothing could be farther from the truth. We still have a shot at grabbing their disruption spells and going off. And if they don't know what deck we're on, they can very easily keep a weak "control all your creatures hand" and get a tendrils in their face for 20+ life. I know this from experience. In fact the last time I played against miracles I won game 1 and lost game 2 then drew game 3 but was likely losing the game if time hadn't been called.

I was sad when I saw Weston Brown at 9th with TES. Esperblade in the top 8 instead is always depressing typically since esperblade is perhaps the most generic deck in all of legacy and quite boring to watch except when one spirit token attacks for 14 turns straight FTW.

Inquisition is a card that is terrible right now considering maverick isn't out there. Rather just run therapy or duress.

[Megadeus]

I believe he is referring to me saying I dont like only 3 BW.

[Bryant Cook]

I still can't wrap my head around why people would want five Chant effects in a format where four Stifle and four Spell Snare isn't the norm. When I did it they were, right now we should be worried about Hymn to Tourach and Counterbalance.

[AriLax]

I still can't wrap my head around why people would want five Chant effects in a format where four Stifle and four Spell Snare isn't the norm. When I did it they were, right now we should be worried about Hymn to Tourach and Counterbalance.

I believe Brandon Adams actually recently suggested that Chant may just be bad right now and Therapy could easily be better. I think he may be right and I could see a higher fetch count, all discard list being reasonable for the current metagame.

[Final Fortune]

I believe Brandon Adams actually recently suggested that Chant may just be bad right now and Therapy could easily be better. I think he may be right and I could see a higher fetch count, all discard list being reasonable for the current metagame.

I tried 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Scalding Tarn, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 1 Badlands, 1 Island and 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy awhile ago, and while I liked having a more stable manabase between the fetchlands and on color disruption the biggest problem is supporting Abrupt Decay out of the SB where 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Tropical Island is a lot more awkward in TES than it is in ANT because of your commitment to Rite of Flame and Burning Wish.

It was something like,

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island

I cut an Infernal Tutor over a Burning Wish because it's still functional in the SB game 1, can be SBed in game 2 and is one of the most commonly SBed out cards in the primer after the 3rd Chrome Mox.

As a whole I think it should be decent in a metagame run by BUG variants.

[Lemnear]

I tried 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Scalding Tarn, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 1 Badlands, 1 Island and 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy awhile ago, and while I liked having a more stable manabase between the fetchlands and on color disruption the biggest problem is supporting Abrupt Decay out of the SB where 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Tropical Island is a lot more awkward in TES than it is in ANT because of your commitment to Rite of Flame and Burning Wish.

It was something like,

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown
2 Thoughtseize
2 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island

I imagine you could debate whether or not you should cut a Burning Wish before you cut an Infernal Tutor, but I liked being able to wish for Inernal Tutor game 1 and then being able to SB it back in game 2 as opposed to being stuck on 7 tutors the whole match with only 3 Burning Wish vs. decks like Goblins that bring in Chalice of the Void.

2 discard effects in SB are a waste here imo. Karakas looks strange w/o silences. I would at least change these 3 slots into chains of vapor and Switch the remaining thoughtseize into the 4th therapy. I would miss my 4th infernal in every Game 1. If they Board into Storm hate, boarding Out an infernal is reasonable but Game 1 you def. want raw power

Still bad feeling about your suggested fetch-to-Land-count :/

[Final Fortune]

I made a couple of mistakes porting Bryant's SB, I didn't realize he cut Karakas for Chain of Vapor at some point (I guess Maverick is dying off)

The fetchland to land ratio is fine, you want 8 fetchlands for Brainstorm way more than you want 5+ land drops in a Storm deck.

I don't mind SBing out Infernal Tutor game 1 because I think it's a better Burning Wish target than either Past in Flames or Ill Gotten Gains so it saves SB space, reduces the average casting cost of the deck and gives you your 13th land and a basic Island for manabase stability vs RUG. Obviously you're not as fast vs Goblins with only 7 tutors, but all of the decks you want 8 tutors against you face roll anyway and all of the decks you want to SB a tutor against you have to fight tooth and nail.

I don't think the SB discard is a waste, you want the ability to choose between Thoughtseize for certainty and Cabal Therapy for value game 1, and game 2 you want to be able to SB out a Chrome Mox for a discard spell vs. a lot of blue decks. I might try cutting 1 Thoughtseize for a Swamp and SBing out a Chrome Mox for a Swamp vs RUG, Merfolk etc. and see how that goes. It's also possibly a 3rd Chain of Vapor, now that I think about it -3 Cabal Therpay for +3 Chain of Vapor makes a lot of sense vs. Goblins if you're on the play.

Edit: No the 2nd Thoughtseize makes sense, I cut 1 Empty the Warrens and 1 Chrome Mox pretty consistently post-board.

[Pelikanudo]

I tried 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Scalding Tarn, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 1 Badlands, 1 Island and 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy awhile ago, and while I liked having a more stable manabase between the fetchlands and on color disruption the biggest problem is supporting Abrupt Decay out of the SB where 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Tropical Island is a lot more awkward in TES than it is in ANT because of your commitment to Rite of Flame and Burning Wish.

It was something like,

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island

I cut an Infernal Tutor over a Burning Wish because it's still functional in the SB game 1, can be SBed in game 2 and is one of the most commonly SBed out cards in the primer after the 3rd Chrome Mox.

As a whole I think it should be decent in a metagame run by BUG variants.

Hi FinalFortune!

I thoutgh for a while in swithcing to Therapy, but I dismissed, I can win RUG only if I play Orims effects, and same seems to be applicable to BUG match ups, it is because of mainly:
- makes D.Return stronger because after a Reesolved Orims, opponent can do nothing
- it is better vs RUG (avoiding everithing except FoW)
- Avoids Extirpate effects

As I said, the BUG match up I won was exactly because of D.Returns, both games, I do not see much more chances to win a match up like this (D.R.S. , Hymns, Tempo, T.Seize, Fluter from Side, etc) Maybe Empty Base - Althoutgh this is not applicable for 2nd and 3rd games.

A note, ussually the BUG opponent plays some Duress effects, in here the brainstorm is crucial, youi need to hold both Orims and business, and the BUG opponent ussually takes out Orims effect (he also plays Daze, S.Pierce, T.Seize, Fluster) He even extirpated me 3 Silence and won a match up with 1 of the 2 Orims Chan I have in base...

I put more value in Orims only because they make D.Return stronger against BUG Tempo - Control variants decks, it is also usefull vs Snapcaster.

Regarding your list, I'd try to make space among these lands to 4 Gemstone Mire, that badlands seems horrible.

[AriLax]

I tried 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Scalding Tarn, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 1 Badlands, 1 Island and 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy awhile ago, and while I liked having a more stable manabase between the fetchlands and on color disruption the biggest problem is supporting Abrupt Decay out of the SB where 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Tropical Island is a lot more awkward in TES than it is in ANT because of your commitment to Rite of Flame and Burning Wish..

I'm pretty sure I would still play Gemstone Mine in some quantity. I would likely just start with -2 City, -4 Silence, +3 Therapy, +1 Duress, +2 Fetch from the current list if I was trying something like that out. Going to the full fetch mana base really doesn't make sense in a Rite of Flame list.

[Final Fortune]

I'm pretty sure I would still play Gemstone Mine in some quantity. I would likely just start with -2 City, -4 Silence, +3 Therapy, +1 Duress, +2 Fetch from the current list if I was trying something like that out. Going to the full fetch mana base really doesn't make sense in a Rite of Flame list.

I don't think you need gold lands in order to support Rite of Flame and Burning Wish, between 8 fetch lands, 2 dual lands and 4 Lotus Petal I've been able to produce red mana consistently - it's green mana followed by blue, black and red mana that's been problematic.

@Pelikanudo

I'm not as concerned with protecting Diminishing Returns with Silence vs BUG because I can Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor game 1 or Empty the Warrens, furthermore every discard spell they play is one less counter spell they play so Diminishing Returns should be better vs BUG than it is vs RUG and if they play Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach and Vendilion Clique all in the same deck then I expect they'll be at the bottom tables for the majority of the tournament when they realize Goblins is a deck.

If I were going to play Gemstone Mine, then I'd just cut the Island and play Silence instead. I think you're talking out of your ass regarding Badlands, stop and think about what your color requirments are going to be vs. Miracles when you have to fetch Tropical Island for Abrupt Decay or vs RUG when you have to fetch Island for Ponder. This isn't a conventionl TES list where you can tap Gemstone Mine for your color of choice, you actually have to make decisions about what lands you're going to search for and Badlands is a necessary evil - and Badlands isn't nearly as bad in TnT as it is in TES when you're playing -4 Silence, +3 Cabal Therapy and +1 Duress.

There's a trade off in the manabases and disruption suites, if you want to be able to disrupt your opponent before the turn you go off, if you want to be able to cast your disruption off of Dark Ritual, if you want to be able to imprint black mana on Chrome Mox, if you want to be able to protect your land drops from Wasteland and if you want to be able to shuffle your deck after you cast Brainstorm then you have to take a hit some where else - you're going to get fetchlands Stifled and you're going to draw Badlands in your opening 7. Gemstone Mine is by no means a bad card and maybe there's room for fiddling with the fetchland and Gemstone Mine count, but I don't think it's really clear which is better than the other. Gemstone Mine is going to feel superficially stronger than a fetchland when you're goldfishing, which is something you should be weary of.

@thread

Do you guys really think Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains are worth the SB space after removing Tendrils of Agony from the MD and the popularity of Deathrite Shaman?

[Koby]

Do you guys really think Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains are worth the SB space after removing Tendrils of Agony from the MD and the popularity of Deathrite Shaman?

IGG has good applications when you board it in for some matchups. It's rare that it becomes a Wish-target, since getting it to work requires both a BWish and Infernal Tutor in your hand. That said, when you have both and 2 LEDs, it's an easy win against most decks.

Past in Flames is weaker in TES than it is in ANT due to the weaker rituals used. I have used PIF in conjunction with a large Rite of Flame count to go the distance however.

Deathrite Shaman has never concerned me because it's usually too slow to matter, or you can play around it.

[phazonmutant]

@thread

Do you guys really think Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains are worth the SB space after removing Tendrils of Agony from the MD and the popularity of Deathrite Shaman?

Yes. I've killed multiple people with both PiF and IGG, and there's really nothing else I want to make room for in the sideboard. There's not many cards we can take out and the cards we bring in are insanely versatile.

[leegoo]

@thread

Do you guys really think Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains are worth the SB space after removing Tendrils of Agony from the MD and the popularity of Deathrite Shaman?

honestly I've never felt that the option of "more" storm engines was bad... I always considered it one of the main reasons to play TES (although I know you are talking more about TNT...burning wish storm then.)

Shaman can be annoying, but not so much as to make me want to cut IGG/PiF.

[Final Fortune]

I just don't feel either of them are necessary, especially when you're SBing an Infernal Tutor game 1 and/or for the rest of the match, and while there's some utility in SBing in Ill Gotten Gains and Tendrils of Agony vs aggro that archetype is the least of our concerns.

I actually find Deathrite Shaman more than fast enough to interfere with Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains lines in TES because both of those lines are much more resource intensive than Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns or Ad Nauseam and take longer to realize. I've obviously never ran head long into it, but just an untapped Deathrite Shaman writes off those lines of play quite a bit fwiw.

IDK, there just seems like there should be more useful stuff to run in those slots right now, altho' I'm not sure what it would be.

[Megadeus]

I would think about not using PiF but I have had a decent amount of success with IGG. Some times you just need to up the storm count. Also I love playing the card...

[Bryant Cook]

I'm still a pretty big advocate of Silence, it seems like we have this argument every ten pages. Look back if you want to see why I play Silence over more discard.

As for the sideboard options, I could see either Storm engine leaving. The problem is I don't think there's a card worth adding thats better than these two. With Therapy, Decay, and Chain pretty much everything is covered.

[Psyqo]

Acquired the necessary cards for this deck recently and have been goldfish testing to get a feel for which Wish targets to use and when.

Quick rules question with the deck. I understand the interaction between Sorceries like Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor where you can announce them, retain priority, then sac an LED.

My question is.. since Dark Ritual is an instant, is this possible?

1. Announce Wish/Tutor as a spell
2. Retain priority
3. Announce 1 or more Dark Rituals as a spell
4. Sac LED for black, playing the Dark Rituals before paying the cost of the first announced spell

I'm thinking "no" but since Dark Rit is an instant I want to understand more how to use that to my advantage.

[Koby]

You can cast instants when retaining priority. The "trick" when retaining priority is that you don't give an opportunity for your opponent to respond to any string of spells or abilities.

EDIT: (for clarification)
You can't, however, use LED mana to pay for spells being cast. LED has a timing restriction that prevents it from being used as mana payments when resolving spells.

The "trick" is to cast BWish or Tutor using available mana (lands, rituals etc), then retain priority and pop the LEDs for mana. With Infernal Tutor this enables Hellbent.
You can also cast the tutor, then respond with Dark Rituals using remaining floating mana, then pop LED for an additional 3 mana; all without passing priority.

[Megadeus]

I agree that Silence is definitely a solid choice. If nothing else you can use it on your opponents upkeep if they are on maverick or another Thalia deck or trying to Hymn you to buy a turn and attempt to go off the next turn. Also it is awesome in combo mirrors to "get" them. Too many discard spells makes you a bit more vulnerable to the Miracles playing top while floating their force. Silence beats that as well.

[lochlan]

Quick rules question with the deck. I understand the interaction between Sorceries like Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor where you can announce them, retain priority, then sac an LED.

This is not quite correct, you don't just announce them--you cast them, retain priority (so that they are unresolved, but on the stack) and then break LED in response, thus giving you mana you can use to cast your tutor target. If you could break LED before paying the cost of a spell then you could use LED to play a card in your hand, but that is not allowed under the current rules.


My question is.. since Dark Ritual is an instant, is this possible?

1. Announce Wish/Tutor as a spell
2. Retain priority
3. Announce 1 or more Dark Rituals as a spell
4. Sac LED for black, playing the Dark Rituals before paying the cost of the first announced spell

No, this is not possible. After you announce a spell you have to choose targets, pay costs, etc. before regaining priority. You would have to pay the cost of the wish/tutor before you can respond to it with Dark Ritual.

[Psyqo]

Thanks lochlan and Koby. It makes more sense now.

I guess I had the initial interaction wrong then.. I thought you could use LED to pay the cost of a spell that you announce. Guess that isn't the case either. Better to learn here than by getting a game loss in a tourney.

[phazonmutant]

lochlan is correct. A quick refresher on how to cast spells (it's a lot more complicated than people think):

Announce the spell and move it from the zone it was in to the stack.
Choose modes, alternative costs, additional costs, any X's
Choose targets
Divide or distribute (e.g. how to distribute Bounty of the Hunt counters)
"Lock in" costs
Activate mana abilities
Pay the total cost (in any order)


Only then is a spell considered "cast". Once a spell is cast, the Comp Rules say that priority goes back to the active player after casting a spell, activating an ability, or placing a triggered ability on the stack. However one of the shortcuts in the Magic Tournament Rules is that a player implicitely passes priority after one of the above unless explicitly stated.

The reason why LED is awkward is because it is a mana ability, and normally you can use mana abilities like Lotus Petal's ability as part of casting a spell. LED, however, has a timing restriction to only be used as an instant. Similarly, Dark Ritual has to be cast and resolve before you can use the mana it produces to cast something like Infernal Tutor.

[Final Fortune]

I agree that Silence is definitely a solid choice. If nothing else you can use it on your opponents upkeep if they are on maverick or another Thalia deck or trying to Hymn you to buy a turn and attempt to go off the next turn. Also it is awesome in combo mirrors to "get" them. Too many discard spells makes you a bit more vulnerable to the Miracles playing top while floating their force. Silence beats that as well.

There's a lot to be said for diversifying your disruption and Silence is a value card earlier than Cabal Therapy is, I don't think it's a question of whether or not Cabal Therapy is better than Silence as a disruption spell (it may incidentally gain utility from the metagame shifting towards discard and permanent based hate) but what structural changes having 4 additional black disruption cards allows you to make to your manabase.

That's why I wouldn't straight swap Silence for Cabal Therapy, because it's just as much about playing 8 fetchlands.

[Pelikanudo]

@Final Frtune

TES is not designed to take full advantage of Fetchlands, 4-5 is enough, if you try to use more fetches you will need to use Cabal ritual as for its purpose you will take more advantage of it, and again you will return to ANT - B.W builds
You need to think that you will need tha same land to play (D.Ritual OR Rite of Flame OR Braintorm) and the best land for it is Fetchland -> Volcanic OR Underground Sea, but again and returnning to the A.Decay problem, you just can use the current TES Manabase configuration (With gemstone and CoB to allow other colors apart from before metioned), also, if you do not play chant effects in base, you can miss Xantid from side, that is again another reason to play Gemnstone as a 4 Of. Badlands does not produce blue, I will not play that land in TES ever. at least with 13 lands 3 C.Moxen configuration.

Apart, I absolutly agree with you on not playing IGG or PiF in side if you do not play Tendrils main. I play Tendrils main.

[Final Fortune]

@Final Frtune

TES is not designed to take full advantage of Fetchlands, 4-5 is enough, if you try to use more fetches you will need to use Cabal ritual as for its purpose you will take more advantage of it, and again you will return to ANT - B.W builds
You need to think that you will need tha same land to play (D.Ritual OR Rite of Flame OR Braintorm) and the best land for it is Fetchland -> Volcanic OR Underground Sea, but again and returnning to the A.Decay problem, you just can use the current TES Manabase configuration (With gemstone and CoB to allow other colors apart from before metioned), also, if you do not play chant effects in base, you can miss Xantid from side, that is again another reason to play Gemnstone as a 4 Of. Badlands does not produce blue, I will not play that land in TES ever. at least with 13 lands 3 C.Moxen configuration.

Apart, I absolutly agree with you on not playing IGG or PiF in side if you do not play Tendrils main. I play Tendrils main.

What do you mean TES isn't "designed" to take advantage of fetchlands, because that doesn't mean TES wont benefit from additional fetchlands? Personally I'll take every last shuffle effect I can get after I cast a Brainstorm or a Ponder. I mean if you really feel the way you do about fetchlands, then why would you play any fetchlands before you'd play a full set of City of Brass ... obviously because shuffle effects are added value.

A single land doesn't have to support blue, black and red mana, you have 4 Lotus Petal, 3 Chrome Mox, 4 less white cards and 3 more black cards in order to smoothe your manabase requirements.

Xantid Swarm is a bad SB card in a metagame full of hand disruption, it's not a consideration IMO. Abrupt Decay is the only green card I want to cast, and I've already conceded Abrupt Decay is worse here than it is in TES (like I said, trade offs are trade offs).

The number of fetchlands you play has nothing to do with the presence of Cabal Ritual in your 60, Cabal Ritual is for a Storm deck with a fundamental turn of 3+, Rite of Flame is for a Storm deck with a fundamental turn of 1+. I realize the manabase looks like ANT, but as I've said before, the distinction between ANT and TES isn't the land configuration it's the choice of using Rite of Flame and 3+ Chrome Moxes as opposed to Cabal Ritual and 1-2 Chrome Moxes.

I don't really care whether or not you'd never play Badlands, it's a functionally necessary card for your manabase.

[Megadeus]

I think the current set up of silences and gemstones is fine. Especially since as has been said, getting abrupt decay out of the board is awesome. Also I still am on Hull Breach out of the board to wish for. Silence is just an awesome way to protect the combo turn.

[Asthereal]

I tried an 'almost' three colour list with discard as only protection.
My testing mana bases were: 3-4x Gemstone, 2x Sea 1-2x Volcanic, 6x Fetch.
Worked okayish, but I wasn't sold on it. I like the normal 'Silence' list better.

[Koby]

Played in a MTGO Daily Event last nite, going undefeated (4-0) against Junk, Manaless Dredge, and two Jund decks.
Turns out, when people are playing Modern decks in Legacy, we get to free wins. In my last match, my opponent got to play one turn. :eek:

I used both IGG and PIF in various positions.
One case - (IGG) I had no cards in hand with 2 LEDs in play (discard - Junk), topdecked Infernal Tutor, start a chain IT -> BW -> IGG -> BW -> DReturns -> fizzle (no rituals, 2 Silence, 2 lands)
Another case -(PIF) against active DRS & Liliana, IT -> RoF (third) and discard to Lily, untap RoF x2, BW -> PIF -> RoF + DR -> IT -> BW -> Tendrils.

Both these cards are highly relevant to generating storm against heavy discard strategies. I wouldn't cut them for anything less impactful.

[Tammit67]

Another case -(PIF) against active DRS & Liliana, IT -> RoF (third) and discard to Lily, untap RoF x2, BW -> PIF -> RoF + DR -> IT -> BW -> Tendrils.

I guess it is safe to assume you had a second IT in the yard, one your active DRS opponent didn't remove? Seems loose.

[Koby]

I guess it is safe to assume you had a second IT in the yard, one your active DRS opponent didn't remove? Seems loose.

I don't remember precisely what was in the yard, but he used his mainphase to eat the first RoF after making me discard with Lily, so I just combo'd off instead. Otherwise, I would have had an incredible amount of mana off RoF into BW.

[Megadeus]

Thats a good point Koby. It also is one reason I like burning wish as a 4 of. It is a combination of a storm engine/answer to a problem/win condition.
Also if we were to replace PiF and IGG what would you want to put into their place?

[Tammit67]

I don't remember precisely what was in the yard, but he used his mainphase to eat the first RoF after making me discard with Lily, so I just combo'd off instead. Otherwise, I would have had an incredible amount of mana off RoF into BW.

Sure, you'll have more mana, but your options are PiF into cantrips, Igg into them, or diminishing returns with some number floating, neither of which seem like guarantees while letting you tutor chain is.

In the blind, I'd want to eat tutor over RoF, so it is curious to me why he made the other decision and made it in his mainphase. Not knocking your 4-0 (congrats btw), but I disagree with your opponents line of play.

[Koby]

Sure, you'll have more mana, but your options are PiF into cantrips, Igg into them, or diminishing returns with some number floating, neither of which seem like guarantees while letting you tutor chain is.

In the blind, I'd want to eat tutor over RoF, so it is curious to me why he made the other decision and made it in his mainphase. Not knocking your 4-0 (congrats btw), but I disagree with your opponents line of play.

I did too. Perhaps he thought he could choke me on mana by getting rid of a RoF (since I tutored for one). He didn't anticipate me having 2 in hand already perhaps? Let's assume for the sake of argument I had 2 IT and getting rid of the discarded RoF was correct. He didn't have many options playing a Jund deck aside from +1 Liliana and RFG a card in my g/y.

[Megadeus]

I mean it is probably similar to what happened when Prosak was playing ANT at the GP. You opponent knew you had the Rite and Probably his first thought was to choke you on your mana.

[Tammit67]

In other news, Bryant's list has been very good to me as is. While the standard portion of GP AC was not the greatest, the Legacy side events proved productive. My only loss involved a Show and Tell opponent who had 4 force, 4 misdirection, 2 flusterstorm main with more pierces/flusters in board along with 4 Leylines.

I think 4 silence 3 duress is fine right now. Against the non blue discard decks, silence often protects well enough in order for you to draw into a kill not disrupted, and at least in my meta there are enough blue decks with snapcaster and/or top that I really want as many silence as is reasonable. Chant effects doesn't sound bad, but duress is still insane against the likes of show and tell or other matchups where a simple silence doesn't quite have the value in stopping their gameplan.

In the sideboard, I don't really use shattering spree all that often, and am considering switching it out for.... something. not sure what I'd want though

[Bryant Cook]

In other news, Bryant's list has been very good to me as is. While the standard portion of GP AC was not the greatest, the Legacy side events proved productive. My only loss involved a Show and Tell opponent who had 4 force, 4 misdirection, 2 flusterstorm main with more pierces/flusters in board along with 4 Leylines.

I think 4 silence 3 duress is fine right now. Against the non blue discard decks, silence often protects well enough in order for you to draw into a kill not disrupted, and at least in my meta there are enough blue decks with snapcaster and/or top that I really want as many silence as is reasonable. Chant effects doesn't sound bad, but duress is still insane against the likes of show and tell or other matchups where a simple silence doesn't quite have the value in stopping their gameplan.

In the sideboard, I don't really use shattering spree all that often, and am considering switching it out for.... something. not sure what I'd want though

This is where I'm at, except mine is Breach for versatility. I'm happy with 74 of my 75. Although, there's not another card I want to put in it's place.

[Megadeus]

Do we just auto lose to mud stompy? It seems borderline impossible to win through all of the hate.

[Tammit67]

Do we just auto lose to mud stompy? It seems borderline impossible to win through all of the hate.

You have speed, they use a lot of ancient tomb activations to get ahead, rarely have a way to deal with turn 1 discard/silence, and goblins aren't dead. And then there is postboard.

It's not great, but not autolose

[j_rb]

Mud was huge in my meta when I used to TES it up and unless they draw tons of wastelands it's not too hard of a MU with an early win or early disruption. Going first helps a lot, but most list will drop a metalworker or monolith turn 1 so it's usually not a big deal. Disruption in chalice and 3sphere is delt with in the board. Playout your artifact mana in g2. It's not too hard of a MU especially if your draws are good.

[Koby]

I <3 MTGO, the lack of Force of Will makes it so damn easy to win with TES.

Running count: 8-0
Faced: Junk, Manaless Dredge, Jund, Jund, Belcher, Elves, budget Reanimator (Foil in place of FoW), and Maverick

[Megadeus]

I got ROFL stomped by MUD tonight. I know what he is on. I durress him T1 and see a bunch of nothing and take a Thran Dynamo. He then casually draws and Goes, Chalice for 1. Pass. Eventually I hull breach it and then he goes, Chalice for one. I proceed to scoop em up a few turn later after I make 8 Goblins and he Plays All is Dust.

G2 I Mull to 6 and keep a slower, but playable hand. He then goes Chalice for 0. T2 Plays a Lodestone Golem. I scoop. I shouldve known to play the artifact mana. I just didnt. I tilted a bit after G1 of him ripping like a champ.

Round 2 I played against Burn. I again knew what he was on but didnt keep a fast hand. He had me down to 4 by T3 thanks to my own City of Brass and a probe.

G2 he has Mind Break Trap against my Mull to 6 and I have Ill Gotten Gains in my hand so it is essentially dead... Ugh.

I dropped after that. So disappointed. I knew the first guy and was thinking, man I do not want to play MUD. Then Hooray MUD! I understand by playing a combo deck that people will have hate, I just get frustrated easily from that top deck. Also my meta is a tad hostile towards combo. A lot of Chalice decks running around. I honestly probably should not be playing the deck I am playing in this meta, but I guess you learn from your losses right?

Edit: To make up for my Failures a fellow Sourcer did get the same MUD player to scoop to a Deus of Calamity. That did make up a bit for the fact that I got anally probed.

[r3dd09]

I <3 MTGO, the lack of Force of Will makes it so damn easy to win with TES.

Running count: 8-0
Faced: Junk, Manaless Dredge, Jund, Jund, Belcher, Elves, budget Reanimator (Foil in place of FoW), and Maverick

If you'd like help on setting up a stream, let me know. I would like to watch some TES action.

[jandax]

I got ROFL stomped by MUD tonight. I know what he is on. I durress him T1 and see a bunch of nothing and take a Thran Dynamo. He then casually draws and Goes, Chalice for 1. Pass. Eventually I hull breach it and then he goes, Chalice for one. I proceed to scoop em up a few turn later after I make 8 Goblins and he Plays All is Dust.

G2 I Mull to 6 and keep a slower, but playable hand. He then goes Chalice for 0. T2 Plays a Lodestone Golem. I scoop. I shouldve known to play the artifact mana. I just didnt. I tilted a bit after G1 of him ripping like a champ.

Round 2 I played against Burn. I again knew what he was on but didnt keep a fast hand. He had me down to 4 by T3 thanks to my own City of Brass and a probe.

G2 he has Mind Break Trap against my Mull to 6 and I have Ill Gotten Gains in my hand so it is essentially dead... Ugh.

I dropped after that. So disappointed. I knew the first guy and was thinking, man I do not want to play MUD. Then Hooray MUD! I understand by playing a combo deck that people will have hate, I just get frustrated easily from that top deck. Also my meta is a tad hostile towards combo. A lot of Chalice decks running around. I honestly probably should not be playing the deck I am playing in this meta, but I guess you learn from your losses right?

Edit: To make up for my Failures a fellow Sourcer did get the same MUD player to scoop to a Deus of Calamity. That did make up a bit for the fact that I got anally probed.

Just don't forget, TES topdecks like a champ and soon enough it'll be your turn to send your opponent tilting when you win by starting the turn with no cards in hand ;) Bad matchups are bad matchups. Just don't be afraid to mulligan to quicker hands in those matchups, it really means the difference, at least in my experience.

[warfordium]

initial goldfishing report: making 10 goblins seems easy. next task: get myself hellbent when i open a non-LED, IT hand.

this deck is a blast! i'm kicking myself for not trying it earlier.

[Megadeus]

Id say go try to Tendrils for 20 without AdNauseum. Now that is tough.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I <3 MTGO, the lack of Force of Will makes it so damn easy to win with TES.

Running count: 8-0
Faced: Junk, Manaless Dredge, Jund, Jund, Belcher, Elves, budget Reanimator (Foil in place of FoW), and Maverick

:eek:

Anyway, four Burning Wish is absolutely correct. Against Team America and other BG/x decks double wish hands are extremely valuable.

[Tammit67]

Id say go try to Tendrils for 20 without AdNauseum. Now that is tough.

It isn't that hard anymore with probe in the deck. Now you can go for it more naturally, instead of having to It into more rituals exclusively.

Response to Chrome mox imprint, cast ad nausem is really sweet, got to do it at the GP.

[jandax]

Know what's even cooler? Cracking LED's in response to Brainstorm/Ponder for Ad Nauseum

At that level, your opponents are just watching you beat them. Focus on their own game is out the window

[Koby]

It isn't that hard anymore with probe in the deck. Now you can go for it more naturally, instead of having to It into more rituals exclusively.

Response to Chrome mox imprint, cast ad nausem is really sweet, got to do it at the GP.

Nothing more savage than Turn 1 Brainstorm into the 2nd LED and Gitaxian Probe with Ad Nauseam in hand, stack the deck with Ad Nauseam on top, Probe, in resp pop both LED, go off. Storm is fair.

[Megadeus]

So many ways to fist your opponent. I love it.

So if you guys have a pretty solid hand you will go ahead and use your brainstorms main phase?

[Koby]

So many ways to fist your opponent. I love it.

So if you guys have a pretty solid hand you will go ahead and use your brainstorms main phase?

Fact: this deck has one of the strongest Turn 1 Brainstorms in the game of Magic.

[Asthereal]

Fact: this deck has one of the strongest Turn 1 Brainstorms in the game of Magic.
Lol, TES is probably the only deck that actually makes proper use of a turn 1 Brainstorm. Almost all of the other decks want to use fetch lands afterwards, and so play Brainstorm turn 2 or later.

[Megadeus]

Just making sure. I have been BSing on T1 and it has worked, but I have had people who watch my games ask me why I did it first. I just always felt like it was right if I had a powerful hand that may have been missing one piece to go broken.

[Tammit67]

Nothing more savage than Turn 1 Brainstorm into the 2nd LED and Gitaxian Probe with Ad Nauseam in hand, stack the deck with Ad Nauseam on top, Probe, in resp pop both LED, go off. Storm is fair.

I consider that standard, everyday savaging :(

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Usually the rule with TES is if you can't win on turn one, Ponder, but if Brainstorm can give you X cards for a turn one win you mainphase that shit every day of the week. Twice on Sundays.

[vercadium]

It isn't that hard anymore with probe in the deck. Now you can go for it more naturally, instead of having to It into more rituals exclusively.

Response to Chrome mox imprint, cast ad nausem is really sweet, got to do it at the GP.

Truthfully never thought of that before. Can't wait to start doing it. <3

EDIT: Actually, forgive me as I'm very tired, but how is this any different from just keeping the Chrome Mox in hand until after Ad Nauseam?

Went 5-2 at an SCG Super IQ. Writing a tournament report now but it will take a while. Wouldn't have a changed a single card in the 75, don't know what else I could possibly want (OP list -1 Hull Breach +1 Revoke Existence).

[jin]

Truthfully never thought of that before. Can't wait to start doing it. <3

EDIT: Actually, forgive me as I'm very tired, but how is this any different from just keeping the Chrome Mox in hand until after Ad Nauseam?

Went 5-2 at an SCG Super IQ. Writing a tournament report now but it will take a while. Wouldn't have a changed a single card in the 75, don't know what else I could possibly want (OP list -1 Hull Breach +1 Revoke Existence).

If you are using LED and Brainstorm to cast Ad Nauseam, you'll need your hand to be empty. So you play Chrome Mox so it doesn't get discarded.

[vercadium]

If you are using LED and Brainstorm to cast Ad Nauseam, you'll need your hand to be empty. So you play Chrome Mox so it doesn't get discarded.

Ah, LED, of course. Thank you; I'm going to go back to sleeping-at-the-wheel in work now.

[Bryant Cook]

Response to Chrome mox imprint, cast ad nausem is really sweet, got to do it at the GP.

You know that this is irrelevant without the Lion's Eye Diamond correct? Otherwise you could just play the Chrome Mox afterwards.

What you would want to do is this:

Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox, in response to the Imprint trigger cast Ad Nauseam. In response to that, break Lion's Eye Diamond for three Red.

[Megadeus]

Why do you have to do it in response to the chrom mox trigger? Isnt it a may ability?

[Lemnear]

Why do you have to do it in response to the chrom mox trigger? Isnt it a may ability?

Imprint a card you've revealed to AN? This Way you get value Out of that mox instead of being a blank pre-AN

[jin]

Why do you have to do it in response to the chrom mox trigger? Isnt it a may ability?

More initial mana is always good. Especially now that the deck runs less Initial Mana Sources.

I find that cutting the 4th Chrome Mox has really started to hurt my Ad Nauseams as I have a habit of playing out my lands before Ad Nauseam leaving me with no mana to cast things afterwards. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

[Megadeus]

Imprint a card you've revealed to AN? This Way you get value Out of that mox instead of being a blank pre-AN

I didnt think about this. Things like this separate good players from bad players like myself

[Psyqo]

Don't worry, I never would have thought to do that without reading this last page either. Ad Nauseum being an Instant sure is fun.

[Bryant Cook]

Don't worry, I never would have thought to do that without reading this last page either. Ad Nauseum being an Instant sure is fun.

It would be better as a Sorcery.

Also, new Storm Hands (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52694/cooks-kitchen-storm-hands-iii)!

[Megadeus]

Being able to wish for Ad Nauseum would be Insane.

@Bryant do you do a live opponent or what? How do you do these hand articles?

[Lemnear]

Don't worry, I never would have thought to do that without reading this last page either. Ad Nauseum being an Instant sure is fun.

I could swear we had that interaction somewhere already in this thread ... :/

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

It would be better as a Sorcery.

Also, new Storm Hands (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52694/cooks-kitchen-storm-hands-iii)!

Article reads "Mother of Ruins."

[r3dd09]

I plan on writing up my sad Denver report over the next few days. Be prepared.

[ThomasDowd]

I could swear we had that interaction somewhere already in this thread ... :/

It is. Humans are lazy and don't like reading the thread like everyone tells them to.

[jin]

I could swear we had that interaction somewhere already in this thread ... :/

There's a video from earlier last year. Even Bryant said he learned something there.


It is. Humans are lazy and don't like reading the thread like everyone tells them to.

This thread is 74 pages. This is like the 4th or 5th TES thread. I don't know if "lazy" should be the word to use.

[Basaka]

Top 4'd the side event at GP Sydney (63 people) with TES, including beating Justin Cheung (who came 2nd in the GP) and ID'ing with Tomoharu Saito (who I later beat in a friendly... and he's back on the tour now!)

May write a report later.

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant:
I think that playing 2 CoV main then it is not neccessary to play H.Breach, instead play S.Spree,
Have you faced some Player playing Leyline Main?

@F.Fortune:
Try to make TES hands with Badland in the 7 and you'll notice that for those scenarious in which you draw Badlands you will want Fetch OR Gemstone OR C. Of Brass. This is a fact and you'll need to avoid this, how? not playing Badlands.

@Rest:
A note:
I just wanted to test the 3 Color Timo Shu8nemant List taking -1 C.Mox and adding a Island
I took the same base as:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9906&iddeck=72223

Changes were +1 Therapy = -1 Duress
I evaluated including A.Decay but Wipe Away was ok for its purpose, althoutgh I didnt need this for S&Tell I just sided 2 Probes for 2 Inquisition and was ok.

I faced Canadian, S&T, Rainbow Control and went 6-1 vs Blue,
I wanted to feel the difference between this and TES and althoutgh there are specific changes (C.Ritual, Therapys, etc), TES and ANT-B.Wish are absolutly 2 different decks,
The 3 basic lands configuration was great agains Canadian the game plan has nothing to do when playing TES, you just sit down play ponders brainstorms, and kill with PiF safety,
I never used A.N. in the whole tournament.
C.Therapy is great in here I take out 2 FoWs in Canadian match up. in here is the Silence slot (I Suggest to play 4 therapys and 3 duress instead of backwards and same applicable for TES 3 colors)

Conclusions:
I would not play TES 3 colors, I would play ANT- B.Wish List 3 Colors.
The only difference about making C.Ritual strong between this list and TEs is only more Fethes, therefore if you anybody intends to play 6-8 TES Fetchs configurations the logical change is C.Ritual instead Rite of flame.
The deck is insane and more stable than TES, althoutgh you can not win on turn 1 with A.N or it is difficult.
The Silence vs C.Therapy discussion is interesting, In TES I'll still keep Silence but it is great to understand the value of Therapy. (after 5 turns elapsed people always counter this with FoW...)

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant:
I think that playing 2 CoV main then it is not neccessary to play H.Breach, instead play S.Spree,
Have you faced some Player playing Leyline Main?


Who said I was playing Chain of Vapor main? My list is always on the opening post.

[vercadium]

Who said I was playing Chain of Vapor main? My list is always on the opening post.

I think he means that if one were to play with 2 Chain of Vapor in the main deck then Hull Breach isn't necessary and Shattering Spree could take its place. I may be misinterpreting this though, it's hard to tell because of the language barrier.

[Final Fortune]

@F.Fortune:
Try to make TES hands with Badland in the 7 and you'll notice that for those scenarious in which you draw Badlands you will want Fetch OR Gemstone OR C. Of Brass. This is a fact and you'll need to avoid this, how? not playing Badlands.



You really need to stop telling other people who actually playtest their manabases what they should or shouldn't be doing, you can't play 3c TES without Badlands - end of discussion - but as far as the rest of your post is concerned there's no correlation between playing fetchlands and playing Cabal Ritual instead of Rite of Flame in TES, because if you want to win before turn 3 consistently then Cabal Ritual is awful.

Timo's list is alright, but I think it's worse then the other ANT lists with Grim Tutors or Pre-Ordains because it has serious issues with exposing itself to Wastelands after you Burning Wish - also you'll notice all of those lists play Badlands ... -

[Bahamuth]

You really need to stop telling other people who actually playtest their manabases what they should or shouldn't be doing, you can't play 3c TES without Badlands - end of discussion


You really need to stop telling other people who actually playtest their manabases what they should or shouldn't be doing, you can easily play 3c TES without Badlands - end of discussion.

[Asthereal]

Tried both, made no difference at all in my testing. But I guess I was lucky enough to never have Badlands mess up my cantrip casting, and also to never really need to fetch Badlands to cast combo stuff. I cannot really say which situation will come up more: Badlands as only land while you need to cast those Ponders, or needing to fetch Badlands since its your last option to cast the spell chain. My gut tells me I should more often hate than love Badlands, but as I said, my testing revealed nothing. Did only play like 30 testgames though.

[Megadeus]

I played about 10 games with a badlands instead of the second USea due to availability, and it did mess me up once not having a blue source.

[jin]

Bryant's mana base is one of the defining features of TES that separate it from ANT. It also allows the deck to play 5c. I think changing it that dramatically would cause fundamental changes to the list effectively changing it into ANT. ANT as it stands now is fundamentally an IGGY Pop/Past in Flames deck more than it is an Ad Nauseam Deck. The "stability" in the mana base almost means you need more time to find the correct lands. If that's the route you want to play, then might I suggest playing ANT.

I just wanted to put that out there for people tinkering with TES's mana base.

[Lemnear]

Bryant's mana base is one of the defining features of TES that separate it from ANT. It also allows the deck to play 5c. I think changing it that dramatically would cause fundamental changes to the list effectively changing it into ANT. ANT as it stands now is fundamentally an IGGY Pop/Past in Flames deck more than it is an Ad Nauseam Deck. The "stability" in the mana base almost means you need more time to find the correct lands. If that's the route you want to play, then might I suggest playing ANT.

I just wanted to put that out there for people tinkering with TES's mana base.

What is this? Bashing with the use of the argument "Bryant does this!"? Decks need to adapt or change to stay compeditive. If Bryant would not have switched MD EtW and Tendrils because he took outside suggestions serious, you would still Play Tendrils and bash the EtW idea with that kind of argument...

TES is an Ad Nauseam deck, ANT a PiF deck. I can't see the need to argue this again and again or bitch about the naming in official result tables. This is like protestants and catholics. We should get over that

[jin]

What is this? Bashing with the use of the argument "Bryant does this!"? Decks need to adapt or change to stay compeditive. If Bryant would not have switched MD EtW and Tendrils because he took outside suggestions serious, you would still Play Tendrils and bash the EtW idea with that kind of argument...

TES is an Ad Nauseam deck, ANT a PiF deck. I can't see the need to argue this again and again or bitch about the naming in official result tables. This is like protestants and catholics. We should get over that

Maybe you are reading too much into it. I used the words "Bryant's mana base" for lack of a better description. For argument's sake, I don't see why the deck would need to go to a 3c list when it does fine running 5c. 5c brings must more power to the deck in the form of Chant effects/Swarm/Hull breach effects. This is power a 3c list would not have. Chant effects make the tempo match up a lot easier, blanking out otherwise surprise Stifle/Spell Snare tricks.

I would rather blank a stupid card like Flutterstorm and play around Wasteland than to play with a compromised mana base.

[Pelikanudo]

Who said I was playing Chain of Vapor main? My list is always on the opening post.

I made an error, I meant :
If you play 2 CoV In Side then you do not need to play Hull breach, unless you expect to face Decks which play Leyline in Main, so the question is: Have you faced opponents playing Leyline Main?

@Final Fortune:
For me as a Rule, I will not play ANY land in TES that does not produce Blue mana. I really do not mind what people will do regarding this. I will play U. Paradise before Badlands.
In a 15 Manabase Lands (ANT - B.W. List) you CAN play Badlands as a 1 Of and Swamp as a 1 Of and then you will have a 13 Lands Build with 2 Lands Not producing Blue Mana, Exact Same numbers as Current TES List with 13 Lands.
In the ANT - B.W. List I play 3 Basic Lands 8 Fetches and I do not have mana issues due to Wastelands Effects.

I just exposed my ideas..., agree, end of discussion.

[Koby]

I made an error, I meant :
If you play 2 CoV In Side then you do not need to play Hull breach, unless you expect to face Decks which play Leyline in Main, so the question is: Have you faced opponents playing Leyline Main?


Hull Breach is pretty good. I used yesterday twice to destroy Goblin Charbelcher when two opponents passed the turn. Still havent used the "and" mode but having that option isnt out of this world.

[Megadeus]

I think I am about to move to revoke over Breach. Like you said Koby I also havent needed the AND ability yet, I have however had a moment where I didnt want my opponent get back an artifact from the yard off of my IGG.

[Asthereal]

I don't see why the deck would need to go to a 3c list
You don't have to. The idea is that it allows you to play more fetch lands, which improves Brainstorm dramatically. I tried it and wasn't convinced it was better, but the improved Brainstorm is very nice. ANT-players might like it better than a regular TES list, but TES players will care more about explosive starts than about improving Brainstorm.
Let's take a list I was tinkering with (not saying this is perfect, it's just one list I tried):

Main:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam /21

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame /19

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy /7

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn /13

Side:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains.
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Cabal Therapy.
1 Eye of Nowhere
3 Thougtseize
3 Chain of Vapor /15

Pro's to UBR:
- Brainstorm is a lot better
Con's to UBR:
- No Silence
- No Abrupt Decay
- No nice anti-enchantment Wish target
I'll leave the choice to you.

For the mana base of an UBR list:
I also tried 12 lands and +1 Ponder. In that case I decided I wanted the 12th blue land, so Badlands was cut, and I played 6 Fetch, 2 Sea, 2 Volcanic and 2 Gemstone Mine. Since that was fine to play with, I also tried that mana base +1 Fetch in the 13 land version. As I said, I noticed no real difference in the ~30 games I tried.


I think I am about to move to revoke over Breach. Like you said Koby I also havent needed the AND ability yet, I have however had a moment where I didnt want my opponent get back an artifact from the yard off of my IGG.
Fair point. I have Revoke now too in my 5C sideboard. I added it first because I had Karakas, and so getting white mana proved easier than green, but I kept it because in testing I once needed to imprint a Silence on a Chrome Mox to cast Hull Breach, and that obviously didn't work. Also like you said, I never encountered the need for a double hit from Breach, so Revoke went back into my 75.

[Megadeus]

I just dont think I would like the deck without silence. It opens up IGG as a good way to up the storm vs blue decks since you dont care that they get back force.

[Pelikanudo]

Hull Breach is pretty good. I used yesterday twice to destroy Goblin Charbelcher when two opponents passed the turn. Still havent used the "and" mode but having that option isnt out of this world.

Remember,

Now we play CoV In side as 2 Of, so there is no need to play an Enchantment Destroyer in Side for B.W., this scenario happened before when we switched to A.D. and No E.Truth List, in that scenario we sill loose to Leyline in 2nd and 3rd games, therefore the need of H.Breach.
Well, now you play CoV as a 2 Of, therefore there is no need to play an Enchantment Destroyer for 1st games and for this case, S.Spree is much much better.

Conclusions:
If you expect to face in 1st games a Deck with Leyline -> Play H.Breach OR R.Existence
If you do not expect to face in 1st game a Deck with Leyline -> Play S.Spree AND 2 Enchantmen Bouncers to Side In. (CoV as example) -> For this scenario, H.B. OR R.E are nonsense.

Bryant? Agree?
Lets go back to the question: Bryant, have you faced any Leyline Base?

[vercadium]

Remember,

Now we play CoV In side as 2 Of, so there is no need to play an Enchantment Destroyer in Side for B.W., this scenario happened before when we switched to A.D. and No E.Truth List, in that scenario we sill loose to Leyline in 2nd and 3rd games, therefore the need of H.Breach.
Well, now you play CoV as a 2 Of, therefore there is no need to play an Enchantment Destroyer for 1st games and for this case, S.Spree is much much better.

Conclusions:
If you expect to face in 1st games a Deck with Leyline -> Play H.Breach OR R.Existence
If you do not expect to face in 1st game a Deck with Leyline -> Play S.Spree AND 2 Enchantmen Bouncers to Side In. (CoV as example) -> For this scenario, H.B. OR R.E are nonsense.

Bryant? Agree?
Lets go back to the question: Bryant, have you faced any Leyline Base?

I still like having a wish-able answer. I haven't been disappointed with Revoke Existence so far, though it is definitely one of the weaker sideboard slots. That said, there's nothing I want in place of it.

[Koby]

Remember,

Now we play CoV In side as 2 Of, so there is no need to play an Enchantment Destroyer in Side for B.W., this scenario happened before when we switched to A.D. and No E.Truth List, in that scenario we sill loose to Leyline in 2nd and 3rd games, therefore the need of H.Breach.
Well, now you play CoV as a 2 Of, therefore there is no need to play an Enchantment Destroyer for 1st games and for this case, S.Spree is much much better.

Conclusions:
If you expect to face in 1st games a Deck with Leyline -> Play H.Breach OR R.Existence
If you do not expect to face in 1st game a Deck with Leyline -> Play S.Spree AND 2 Enchantmen Bouncers to Side In. (CoV as example) -> For this scenario, H.B. OR R.E are nonsense.

Bryant? Agree?
Lets go back to the question: Bryant, have you faced any Leyline Base?

You're missing the point. I play 2 Chains in addition to Hull Breach. Chains are strictly for Leylines and other hateful permanents. Hull Breach is the answer for Game 1 problems. I've been perfectly fine using Hull Breach to destroy Counterbalance in Game 1 when the coast is clear.

I would not board anything against Belcher, and especially not Chain of Vapor against them. You're fighting for a marginal sideboard slot at this point and there's not much justification for cutting it. The sideboard as it stands has plenty of wiggle room for Hull Breach.

[Pelikanudo]

You're missing the point. I play 2 Chains in addition to Hull Breach. Chains are strictly for Leylines and other hateful permanents. Hull Breach is the answer for Game 1 problems. I've been perfectly fine using Hull Breach to destroy Counterbalance in Game 1 when the coast is clear.

I would not board anything against Belcher, and especially not Chain of Vapor against them. You're fighting for a marginal sideboard slot at this point and there's not much justification for cutting it. The sideboard as it stands has plenty of wiggle room for Hull Breach.


I assume I will not win through a resolved C.B. via B.Wish -> Hullbreach.
Apart from this problem, what other problems exist in Game 1 that S.S can not solve.?
I've lost match ups to MUD because of not having Spree this is a fact.
I can agree with you about Charbelcher if he sides in the Leylines, this can be in my opinion the only reason to play an Enchantment Destroyer for B.W., but I don't see why you won't side in CoV. if he plays Leyline, any specific reason?

I personally play Revoke Existence and not CoV but this is only because I still do not play CoV (prefer Xantid and Karakas for my meta) or any Enchantmen Bouncer. Otherwise I will play S.S.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant? Agree?
Lets go back to the question: Bryant, have you faced any Leyline Base?

There's not a single question or conversation that I haven't covered in the recent past. This thread just goes in circles. If you're interested in my thoughts on the subject trying reading the thread from the beginning.

[Pelikanudo]

There's not a single question or conversation that I haven't covered in the recent past. This thread just goes in circles. If you're interested in my thoughts on the subject trying reading the thread from the beginning.

I think you're not ritgh, I even was the one who proposed R. Existence because of the lack of SideBoard Answers to 2nd and 3rd games to Leylines. -> Because of A.Decay inclusion, this proposal was accepted exactly by you.
Reference, and please see the Post below this:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=678152&viewfull=1#post678152

Well, Having this in mind I can have missed something, but I honestly think that you should change to S.S. if you play 2 SideBoard Answers to Leyline.
I always do my homework.

I'd like to bring other Opinions apart from yours.
@Mainly Bahamut, Koby, F. Fortune: Do you agree with me on this specific subject?

[loveisgreen]

You are suggesting cutting our only out G1 to Counterbalance to be able to beat......Chalice? Trinisphere? A bunch of cards that are not as popular as Counterbalance?

In any case, I think I am going back to Reforge the Soul. I really like it way more in the miracles matchup as they don't get their stuff back, it plays nice with PiF, and costing one more for the more aggressive matchups has not mattered. Also, it makes Infernal for Rite of Flame when you don't have an LED a thing, when PiF is not an option. Like when Deathrite Shaman is in play.

I can't believe this deck existed the whole time I played ANT........ I feel like I'm way behind.

[Endure2004]

Got a short tournament report for you degenerates. Top 8'd the January NELC with:

4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
3 chrome mox
4 infernal tutor
4 burning wish
1 ad nauseum
1 empty the warrens
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
3 duress
4 silence
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
2 misty rainforest
1 scalding tarn
4 gemstone mine
2 city of brass

SB
1 past in flames
1 ill gotten gains
1 time spiral
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 revoke existence
1 grapeshot
3 cabal therapy
3 abrupt decay
2 dark confidant

Matches:
Round 1 Jeremy Tibbets on stoneblade
Game 1: He goes t1 brainstorm, I play a misty. He plays a land, I play land, infernal tutor, it gets spell snared. He plays stoneforge mystic, gets batterskull. I play infernal tutor, get LED. Next turn I play silence, it gets FOW'd. I then play brainstorm, LED, LED, petal, petal, duress, burning wish, tendrils of agony.
Game 2: I keep probe, ponder, misty, city, RoFx2, dark rit. He goes land go. I probe, then city, then ponder, see infernal and burning wish. He plays karakas, go. I play ponder. I duress away a flusterstorm. I burning wish for cabal therapy, I know his hand is snapcaster x 2, force, spell pierce. I pass, then cabal therapy him, he plays snapcaster in response, targets flusterstorm in his yard. I name spell pierce. I then play another cabal therapy I drew, he flusterstorms (play mistake on my part). His turn, he plays sword and swings for two with snappy. My turn I play silence into RoFx2, dark ritual, infernal tutor, ad nauseum from 10 life, I stop at 1 with exactsies enough to kill him.
1-0

Round 2 Nicholas Herbs on burn
Game 1: he goes arid mesa into goblin guide. I probe into ponder on my turn. He attacks for two. I draw, go land, mox (ponder), petal, LED, wish, ETW. He suspends two rift bolts. I draw silence...on his upkeep I silence his rift bolts. yum.
Game 2: he goes goblin guide, attack. I ponder, then play mox (duress), duress. He casts lava spike. I infernal tutor for a lotus petal. He plays another goblin guide. I play LED into infernal tutor into Ad nauseum from 10, no mana floating, no land drop. Doesn't get there.
Game 3: I probe, his hand is fireblast, lava spike, and lands. I duress a lava spike away, next turn go infernal tutor for RoF, lotus petal, RoFx2, LED, ETW. It wins.
2-0

Round 3 Damon Whitby on dredge
Game 1: I go ponder, go. He plays a putrid imp. I have a turn 2 ad nauseum through a dark rit and a rite of flame.
Game 2: He mulls to 4, my hand is a turn 3 ad nauseum (2x rite of flames, lands, and ad nauseum). Unfortunately, he kills me on turn 2. Insane. His 4 carder was land, dredger, LED, something, and he drew a draw spell.
Game 3: I go t1 ponder, drop 2 LED's. He mulls to 5, but then explodes on turn 1 with LED and faithless looting and a dredger. He dredges infinite cards but doesnt hit a narc so he cant cast therapies. On my turn I play land, chrome mox, dark rit, burning wish, crack 2 LED's into time spiral, untap two lands, LED, LED, ponder, hit the tutor, lotus petal, rite of flame, infernal tutor, burning wish, tendrils.
3-0

Round 4 Jeremiah Rudolph on 12 post from here on out my notes suck cuz I lost motivation
Game 1: I time spiral, but I draw the ETW. I Empty for a lot, and upkeep silence him, but he cracks expedition map, gets glacial chasm, then has all the time in the world. Would've won if it had been a tendrils main, but what can you do.
Game 2: He taps out on turn 1, I duress on turn 1 see blue blast, brainstorm, he brainstorms in response, i see nothing of import so I ad nauseum. It gets there.
Game 3: He plays something turn 1, I probe and then ad nauseum turn 1 to get there.
4-0

Round 5 Nick on Ad nauseum tendrils
Game 1: He has a bunch of rituals but no disruption or tutor. I have an early ad nauseum.
Game 2: He plays turn 1 dark ritual, cabal therapy (miss), dark confidant. He draws a million disruption spells, then past in flames me for the kill. At the last turn, He cast cabal therapy and I could've silenced in response, which I should have (wasn't expecting to die on the spot), and he named silence. Still learning with this deck!
Game 3: We both have early bobs, but I have a silence that prevents him from going off. Bob draws me a lot of cards. We attack each other with bobs, but I don't trade because I can't find a tutor. I get low on life, but I finally find a tutor at 8 life. I cast dark ritual, dark ritual, dark ritual, rite of flame, burning wish, past in flames, recast rituals, infernal tutor, burning wish, tendrils.
5-0

Round 6 ID

Round 7 against Blayne Gibbons on hypergenesis
Game 1: He gives me infinite time, doesn't do anything. His hand has all hypergenesis cascaders, no fatties. He forces an infernal tutor, then I ad nauseum and kill him next turn.
Game 2: I keep a slow hand, duress away a show and tell. He draws another, puts emrakul into play. I don't have it the next turn.
Game 3: He starts with a leyline in play. He then show and tells griselbrand into play. I go off, he draws 14 cards, but can't find a force of will. My ad naseum isn't enough to both cast revoke existence and grapeshot him. I lose. Would've appreciated those chain of vapors I skimped on here.
5-1-1

Round 1 of top 8 against James Rynk on Jund
Game 1: I mull to 5, he rips my hand apart.
Game 2: My hand is probe, mox, duress, dark ritual x3, infernal tutor. I probe into a lotus petal, and ad nauseum into a win.
Game 3: He rips my hand apart. I was one short of casting burning wish into time spiral at one point, and it would've translated into a diminishing returns with one floating (20%ish win percentage). Diminishing returns would've been marginally better here, but I don't think casting it and passing the turn and hoping he didn't have a discard spell (3 duress, 4 thoughtseize, 4 hymn) would've won.

I end up with more Bayous. I think the dark confidant experiment is over and I am going back to chain of vapors. I did more testing against discard heavy matchups (jund), and concluded that leaving in silences is better than boarding in therapies. Trading discard spells with them always results in me losing, as they operate much better on low resources, where as using silence to stall and get extra setup turns ends up with a higher win percentage. This is out of maybe 6 or so games. Going to be doing a lot more testing this week on whether or not keeping silence in is right in these matchups.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

1 time spiral

Fetish?

[Koby]

1 time spiral
-
Fetish?

I've actually considered it, after bricking on D-Returns thanks to it exiling 3 tutors last nite. Untapping some lands makes up for the extra mana. It's a loose one tho.

[Final Fortune]

I've actually considered it, after bricking on D-Returns thanks to it exiling 3 tutors last nite. Untapping some lands makes up for the extra mana. It's a loose one tho.

It's not an awful choice, I use to play it in addition to Diminishing Returns just so I had the option of untapping a City of Brass or Gemstone Mine and having white mana available for Silence after you Draw 7, the color fixing is relevant IMO because you usually tap your lands to cast rituals, use your rituals to cast Burning Wish and then sacrifice your artifact mana in response to either the Burning Wish, in the case of LED, or the target, in case of Petal, so you usually end up with either R, U or B floating and have to rely on a land drop or a Petal to cast Silencee where if you cast Time Spiral and untap two lands, the equivalent of casting Diminishing Returns with 2 of R, U or B mana floating, your ability to cast Silence is much higher because you're untapping gold lands instead of floating R, U or B from the rituals and LED.

In short, odds of casting Silence after Time Spiral are higher than after casting Diminishing Returns so if you have 2 lands in play you may as well cast it over Diminishing Returns, whether or not that warrants a SB slot IDK.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Goblin Electromancer. Cough. Not really. Helm of Awakening. For value.

[Megadeus]

This isnt Modern. We arent Barbarians playing bad Goblins!! Though using Mana Morphose to go +1 mana and +1 card is sweet!

I have debated it as well (Time Spiral), but Sometimes it is very difficult to get to 6 mana after a B Wish.

[Koby]

Goblin Electromancer. Cough. Not really. Helm of Awakening. For value.

In the right deck, perhaps those make sense. If you're being halfway serious, then definitely not. All our rituals costs a singular colored mana. It only improves Tutor chains, and you would need to cast at least 3 spells with the reduction to make the payback on the initial cost (2) worth it at all.

Look for Nausea (archetype) for this application.

[Bryant Cook]

I've been trying to get Ning to stop playing Spiral for months. It's only good if you have three lands and that they aren't Gemstone Mine or City of Brass - those lands just don't work well with Spiral. Not to mention, it's eight mana to break even with Returns at six mana, this is crucial in a format full of Daze, Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce. In situations against discard decks where you're in top deck mode, it's more likely that you would be able to cast Returns off of a top decked Infernal after sitting on artifact mana than Spiral too.

[Megadeus]

What was the reason for cutting the SB empty the warrens?

[kwis]

What was the reason for cutting the SB empty the warrens?

He explained it in a tournament report but the tl;dr was it wasn't worth the extra damage on AN.

[Megadeus]

I rwmember reading it somewhere. Why not keep it as a wish target?

[Tammit67]

I rwmember reading it somewhere. Why not keep it as a wish target?

Why do you need 2 as a wish target?

[Megadeus]

Man im bad. For some reason I thought you only played one main one side.... I apologize for being bad

Edit: Didnt want to double post, but I played a 5 round plus a top 8 game then split top 4 tonight with the list in the OP.

Round 1: Scape Fit

I know what he is on, but he thinks I am on Stoneblade. I Tendrils Him T1 off of an awesome hand.

G2 he Whiffs on a blind Therapy, but then he gets my only Tutor on the flashback off of an explorer. I never draw anything and just die.

G3 I again have a fast start after his Mull to 5. Kill him on T2 after an IGG loop gets me there.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2: Junk and Taxes

Again, guy who rode up with me I knew he was on a non blue deck. He opens on T1 with a Hierarch, and has GSZ for Teeg, but dies on T1.

G2 I have a slower hand but it can get there. He plays a T2 Ethersworn Canonist. Slows me down a bit, but I probed on T1 and saw it so I dumped my LED and 2 Lotus Petals on T1. He then gets down KOTR. Then plays Jitte, equips to Canonist, I decay the canonist after attacks. On my turn I Decay the KOTR. His turn he dumps 2 mana dorks and Stoneforge for batterskull. I play a couple of rituals, then play Infernal to get the IGG I boarded in (probably a wrong decision) to loop and get the kill for exactsies.

2-0 (4-1)

Round 3: Jund Zombie Vine

Again I know my meta pretty well and know what he is on so mull to 6 hoping for a quick hand but turns out my 7 was better :/
I then Die on T4 to him playing Lotleth Troll, discarding VVine and Anger. Replays his Crawler in the Yard, gets back VVine and swings for a bunch and I cant recover.

G2 I kill him on T1 with Ad Nauseam.

G3 I see a mull to 5 and smell blood. I probe and see Anger, Lotleth Troll and Entomb. I Therapy and he entombs Therapy in response. I take Troll and him just drawing too many do nothing spells gives me time to shape a winning hand.

3-0 (6-2)

Round 4: Aluren

G1 I turn 1 Empty for 10 dudes. He cant get his living wish for Tabernacle in time.

G2 He Probes me. My hand is 3 Land, 2 LED, 1 IT, ! Chrome Mox. He plays Therapy naming LED. Next turn I draw Abrupt Decay. Then he plays Baleful Strix and flashes back therapy taking IT. I feel like Im in big trouble. Luckily the deck bails me out and I draw an IT and an LED in my next 2 Draw Steps to get there, but then realize after drawing a bunch of cards that I dont have any tutors from Ad Nauseum. So I can trip and cantrip until eventually drawing a BW... Whew. Man I suck at this deck!

4-0 (8-2)

Round 5: Sneak and Show

ID with top breakers.

4-0-1 (8-2)

Top 8

I play the other person in my car who is on Stoneblade.

G1 I dont find a hand with disruption and he has the FoW when after getting a BSkull I just attempt to go for it.

G2 I Durress seeing 2x SFM a snapcaster, Jace and Lands. I could go off and make about 14 Gobs but I wasnt sure if the BSkull he could get would race me or not. Next turn I go off and he doesnt draw the FoW.

G3 I keep a good hand, but no disruption. He mulls to 6 and kind of looks disappointed in his hand. He has 2 fetches on board and I have Ad Nauseum and 2 LED's in hand with a silence. I suspect he has V Clique so I BS putting Nauseum on top, but fail to realize my mistake. I play my 2 LEDs so that in response to the V Clique Trigger I can crack them and go crazy. (I know this doesnt work now). Anyway on my next upkeep he puts his fetches in the GY and says Ill play VClique after you draw. I say in response to the fetches I silence. He thinks I cheated because he announced the VClique already. I just tell him that I can respond to a fetch trigger. Luckily we split the measly prize either way and we dont care too much about it. Anyway I double Dark Ritual and go off. I realized as we were driving back that inresponse to the VClique I couldve just Played Ad Nauseum anyway (derp its an instant) and it makes him feel a little better about the situation.

Anyway all in all as we all know, the deck is pretty awesome. I apologize about the details. My lifepads get thrown away after each round and half the time I dont even track things very well anyway. The board was pretty awesome all night.

The one question that I have is do you ever SB in IGG? Im not sure if it is right, but I SB it in vs the non blue decks a few times and it was solid.

[DarkJester]

He plays a T2 Ethersworn Canonist. Slows me down a bit, but I probed on T1 and saw it so I dumped my LED and 2 Lotus Petals on T1.

Why did you do this? You may cast your Artifact Mana through a Canonist.

But Congratz anyway.

[Lemnear]

Round 1 Jeremy Tibbets on stoneblade
Game 1: He goes t1 brainstorm...

So basically a Bye...



Round 4 Jeremiah Rudolph on 12 post from here on out my notes suck cuz I lost motivation
Game 2: He taps out on turn 1, I duress on turn 1 see blue blast, brainstorm, he brainstorms in response...

Agree, notes got fishy from ... manaless BS

Gz to your finish

[Megadeus]

Why did you do this? You may cast your Artifact Mana through a Canonist.

But Congratz anyway.

HA! So I can... Ive trained myself to do it with Thalia, and I guess my initial thought was, Hatebear, play the artifact mana... lol.